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There’s no dignity in assisted dying Politicians are full of bogus compassion

Why infantalise death?(Getty)


October 12, 2024   10 mins

It was the childishness that pushed me over the edge. As news broke of the forthcoming parliamentary vote on assisted dying, a slew of statements from politicians emerged, each one more simplistically emotive and Manichean than the last.

Labour MP Kim Leadbeater — author of the private member’s bill to be introduced next week — called the current law “cruel and unjust”, as though talking about the deliberate withholding of pain relief, rather than a failure to legalise state-sponsored killing. Andrew Mitchell echoed the charge, decrying “the cruelty and suffering inflicted by the blanket ban”. Before long, claims about cruel laws had escalated to insinuations about cruel people, with Kit Malthouse describing himself as standing with the “millions of people who are on the side of compassion and humanity” — thereby making plain what he thought of anyone who disagreed with him.

At first, Baroness Ruth Davidson’s reaction seemed to win the prize for the most queasily syrup-laden, describing Leadbeater’s success at procuring a vote as “amazing news” and thanking her parliamentary colleague with online kisses. But then came Keir Starmer, with the air of someone who was confident listeners would understand the personal difficulty of saying no to a national treasure, revealing that he had “made a promise to Esther Rantzen… that we would provide time for a debate and a vote on assisted dying” and that he was “very pleased… to be able to make good on the promise”. To those previously unaware of a particularly close relationship between Starmer and Rantzen, the revelation that the former host of That’s Life! held such power at the heart of government came as a bit of a shock.

This is not just an allergy to lazy heartstring-plucking. Grizzled veterans of the gender wars have been here before: watching aghast as words like “kindness” and “compassion” are bandied about by various earnest-faced, honey-voiced people to justify what only a few years previously would have looked like obvious medical malpractice. Recent history tells us that institutions are often powerless to stay upright in the face of such a pillowy, feminine-coded assault.

And so it now looks likely we are to become a nation where doctors — quite literally — can kill you with kindness. We are officially so frightened of death and its accompanying messes that we have fallen for the imaginative lure of a nice clean finish, and to hell with whatever changes in the social fabric will result. Polls consistently indicate that a majority of the public is in favour of legalising assisted dying, and the medical profession, previously mostly against, seems to be shifting to a more evenly split position. The Prime Minister himself is for it and so are many of his MPs. We might have collectively agitated for improved palliative care instead, but it wouldn’t have provided quite the same reassuring phantasm of control.

Deep down, everybody knows that the introduction of assisted dying legislation will create a new tier of vulnerable people who decide to jump before nature pushes them, and who would not have done so otherwise. Indeed, there are already helpful philosophers arguing that it would be right for them to do so. Poverty, undue family influence, and anxiety about being a burden to others are bound to become contributory factors in decision-making; and whatever the outcome, a tormenting sense of personal responsibility about whether to go or not will be added to an already heavy mental load.

But it seems that most of us don’t care much about this, perhaps assuming unimaginatively that it will never be us. Protests from disabled people, reasonably worried about the Overton window shifting to frame them as expendable, also seem to be falling on strategically deaf ears. Instead, politicians in favour of a change in the law dramatically beg us to focus on the distressing impacts of potentially lengthy investigations for witnesses of suicide under present circumstances, as if this were the most pressing problem in the grand scheme of things. Wealthy proponents tend to talk as if their inability to die exactly where and when they would like is a terrible injustice to which we can all relate. (See, for instance, Rantzen complaining that “I will probably not be given the chance to die in my favourite place, my New Forest cottage”.)

Supporters also tend to insist that there is no potential for a slippery slope here: that the procedure will only ever be available to those of sound mind who are indisputably terminally ill. The trajectory of similar legislation elsewhere suggests otherwise. Canada’s law has dispensed with the need for a terminal diagnosis provided you are in an “advanced state of decline that cannot be reversed” and “experience unbearable physical or mental suffering… that cannot be relieved under conditions that you consider acceptable”. Both Belgium and the Netherlands euthanise those with psychiatric disorders as long as their suffering is judged “unbearable”, and Canada has legalised similar measures, though recently delayed implementation until 2027.

But never mind other countries, just look at our own. Here again, those familiar with gender medicine shake their heads ruefully, knowing that what starts life as a limited set of measures intended to help a small number of people can blow up years later, unexpectedly, and be demanded by tens of thousands. All that is required is a few internet missionaries arriving wherever the virtual equivalent of Iona is, and exponentially converting heathens to their strange new religion.

Consider that back in 2004, the Gender Recognition Act was passed to respond to the stated needs of a small number of adults quaintly known as transsexuals. Few would have predicted that 15 years later, activists online would be venerating a soul-like object called a “gender identity”, convincing large swathes of young people that they had a badly fitting body that required hormonal and surgical realignment to fit the inner world. But here we are. Those relying on the common sense of doctors to protect the public from passing destructive fads in future might find a reality check in the British Medical Association’s ideological rejection of the Cass Report.

On the face of it, medico-legal language about “unbearable suffering” has a satisfying air of rigour about it, as if diagnosing such a thing were no more complicated than taking someone’s temperature or running a test in a lab. In practice, what counts as unbearable — or indeed even as suffering at all — can differ from person to person, and is also strongly influenced by surrounding social norms about what adults are expected to be able to tolerate without much complaint. Physical pain and suffering are not the same thing. There can be unbearable suffering without pain, and vice versa.

What suffering is, in a species like ours with its capacity for higher order meaning-making, is intrinsically connected to the narratives we tell ourselves: about which situations are tolerable, and which are not; about what pain is for, exactly, and what lessons it can teach us; about what level of mental attention it is respectable or otherwise desirable for an individual to expend, fretting about his problems as opposed to repressing the feelings or looking away.

Those narratives are to some degree up to the individual, but significantly influenced by society’s standards too. And standards can change. Our ancestors put up with things the modern self would typically find impossible to bear. It is said that soldiers at Waterloo got back in the saddle immediately after limb amputation. In the United States in 2018, people were trying to bring emotional support peacocks onto planes. This is not to make light of contemporary experiences of agony — we are where we are, and can’t get out of there by stern self-talk or wishing — but only to put it in some context.

With this in mind, it is myopic to think that a law legalising euthanasia won’t itself eventually have a narrowing effect on what kinds of distress are considered tolerable. Indeed, a quick look at current internet trends contains useful intelligence for writers of dystopian fictions set in the near future.

People who treat chronic illness as an identity of sorts are a huge social media ecosystem: finding each other with hashtags such as #spoonie, #fibromyalgia, #chronicillness and #PoTS, documenting their daily symptoms, and offering each other public support. Most of them are women, and many feel the medical profession offers them nothing but scepticism and contempt. Whether or not these people are indeed incurably ill, the more important point for current purposes is that a lot of them clearly believe they are, and find their own suffering unbearable. Locked in apparently interminable physical dysfunction and with no agreed cure in sight, one doesn’t have to work too hard to imagine a world where assisted dying seems to them the only exit available, with added opportunities to record the whole thing on TikTok channels.

Do we really know for sure that relevant institutions, weak as they have already been shown to be, would be able to see off impassioned appeals from such a cohort for kindness in helping to relieve them from the burden of living? If we Brits look with horror on Dutch doctors legally euthanising a 29-year-old woman on grounds of “chronic depression, anxiety, trauma and unspecified personality disorder”, it is perhaps only because our own old-fashioned ethical standards have yet to catch up.

Grasping for certainty, we might assume that what counts as a disease or an illness, at least, is purely physically determined — but here, too, things are not so clear-cut. The late philosopher Ian Hacking wrote perspicuously about the way that some illnesses are “interactive kinds” showing “looping effects” — meaning that the public’s grasp on the existence of a particular illness, and what count as medically accepted conditions for its diagnosis, can influence the acknowledged prevalence of the illness in question. This in turn imperceptibly shifts the diagnostic criteria over time. For both reasons, the pool of patients can suddenly markedly expand, and especially where there is no easily ascertained underlying physical cause.

As people begin to apply a set of diagnostic criteria to their own lives, and interpret their physical experiences within that frame, hundreds of thousands of people can come to count as patients of a given syndrome, whereas at one point only a few did. Hacking’s prescient examples included multiple personality disorder (now known as dissociative identity disorder) and autism. There’s every sign that chronic disorders such as fibromyalgia and postural tachycardia syndrome (PoTS) are going the same way, with added internet rocket fuel.

There is a way of reading this argument that implies many or even most such self-diagnoses are bogus. Once again, though, this is too simple-minded an approach. Clichéd as it has become to say it, the mind and the body are connected. The habitual framing of a particular bodily sensation as having pathological origins can have knock-on physical effects, building up a prison of real and distressing symptoms over time. Only hubristic doctors feel able these days to pronounce with certainty about whether a given symptom is “purely psychological” or not. From a distance, most of us can see the shape of the problem at scale — the strong effect of transitory cultural influences upon bodily and mental resilience across a population — but at the micro level, treating individual patients, it is usually therapeutically irrelevant information.

Given these treacherously shifting sands, might we at least collectively fight off the idea that a diseased or suffering life has only whatever subjective worth the individual patient places upon it — and that if the answer is “none”, it is time to put an end to things? It seems we have a big job on our hands. One problem is that, perhaps subconsciously craving some kind of hero’s journey in a boringly meaningless world, many of us have turned the quest for physical optimisation into a public identity, with an accompanying sense of failure once inevitable decrepitude sets in.

Broadsheets now tell you how to reduce your “metabolic age” through exercise and changes to diet; dedicated watches track every vital function, spawning thousands of everyday acts of neurotic checking for signs of imminently waning powers; ageing actresses’ faces are cut up and remoulded to hide signs of cellular decay. There is even a “Don’t Die” movement, whose exponents actually hope to achieve immortality through things such as fasting and temperature-controlled mattresses. Though nobody ever explains what all this frenetic body-hacking is for, exactly, Gen Z have obviously received the memo, drinking less and exercising more than previous generations but without much added happiness to show for it. When they too eventually arrive at old age and disease, it will be hard to convince them that the failure of their bodies is not a personal disaster after a lifetime spent hearing the opposite.

In effect, this is the bastardised version of “dignity” we seem to have inherited: one where you only count as having it if all your bodily functions are currently under control. Dignity in dying is a concept we hear a lot about — indeed it’s the name of one of the most prominent organisations campaigning for a change in legislation — and yet dignity is also a culturally porous entity, changing its shape according to prevailing norms and ideals. The Enlightenment philosopher most famous for representing dignity as a universal human value was Immanuel Kant, but he would be horrified at the idea that its possession — or not — somehow depended on your contingent physical state. Yet when a cross-party group of MPs dramatically complains that, under present legal conditions, “so many are forced to die without dignity”, it seems likely this is exactly what they mean.

Nobody relishes the prospect of the opposite. I once worked in a nursing home and a lot of my time there was spent dealing with incontinence: not much fun, either for the resident or the carer. Still, in the right sort of setting, both become accustomed and can look past it to more important things. The venerable Kantian-inspired ideal is that in periods of frailty, you can retain dignity in spite of what is happening to you physically; and this is recognised when carers look after you in non-instrumental, respectful ways that acknowledge your intrinsic human worth.

From this angle, the legalisation of euthanasia does nothing to increase dignity but provides new ways to undermine it, and especially in the present non-ideal context where social care is already underfunded and overstretched. If by “people should be allowed to die with dignity” politicians really mean “people should be put out of their misery” — and where that misery is a direct function of inadequate and demeaning care standards — they should say as much, explicitly, and not hide behind sentimental language designed to make them sound like moral heroes.

“The legalisation of euthanasia does nothing to increase dignity but provides new ways to undermine it.”

This week it was reported that 38 Labour MPs, including 13 in government roles, are already backing demands for the scope of the forthcoming bill to be extended; to cover not just the terminally ill, but the more vaguely construed “incurably suffering” as well. It seems that despite all the denials, a slope beckons after all; though those concerned still seem to think they are in control of the descent. It is ironic that, for a set of people so apparently keen on the value of personal autonomy, politicians defending the legalisation of euthanasia display a naïve trust that the world will always collude with them to maintain sufficient defences against unethical slippage or abuses of power.

They talk as if medics will always make consistent decisions about whether stated legal conditions have been met, and patient pressure groups or ideological movements will never form to distort their judgements; as if subsequent language users are bound to understand vague concepts like “unbearable” or “incurable” in just the same way as we do now; as if distressing illnesses presently affecting a relative few can’t metastasise in future. They are happy to talk simplistically of kindness and cruelty as if they are in primary school, while outsourcing responsibility for maintaining adequate guardrails to more grown-up sounding people and things: doctors, bioethicists, legal definitions, forms signed in triplicate.

In short, although with their babyish words politicians imply that a personal choice about whether and when to die is disconnected from the decisions and actions of other people, it is not, and it never will be. A big clue is in the term “assisted”. If we had any sense as a society, we would decline the invitation to set foot on their big shiny playground slide, but I won’t be holding my breath.


Kathleen Stock is an UnHerd columnist and a co-director of The Lesbian Project.
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Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 month ago

A superb piece.
James Mumford’s book, ‘Vexed: Ethics Beyond Political Tribes‘ changed my mind on this issue a few years ago, focusing IIRC on the direct/indirect pressure and distress this may place on the elderly to end their lives. It was only after this that the unfolding horror of the Canadian MAID program emerged.
Your comparison to gender medicine is apposite. There will always be doctors prepared to sign off on this. They will become well-known and set up private practices to profit from it.
If ever there was a legal change with ‘unintended consequences’ written all over, it is this one. The darker side of my mind ponders whether, for some, the inevitable outcomes are, in fact, not unintended at all.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
1 month ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

There are indeed already private Euthanasia Clinics in British Columbia.

Andrew Daws
Andrew Daws
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin Smith

Are they as demanding as Dignitas? A friend of mine was suffering greatly, but was refused because he wasn’t terminal. Thankfully (?) he was diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer shortly afterwards, and was gone in little over a week.

annabel lawson
annabel lawson
1 month ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

In no time young people hoping to be able to put a deposit on a home will be shiny eyed when a dear older member of the tribe yields to pressure and makes the best of all gifts. Beware.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  annabel lawson

If, in a few situations, callous, greedy people want old relatives to die faster they’re probably killing them off anyway.

jane baker
jane baker
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

A few. Most people are like that. The sanitised world we have all lived in,that was deliberately constructed post WW2 is being deconstructed and older realities are resurrecting.

Marcus Glass
Marcus Glass
27 days ago
Reply to  annabel lawson

The least of our worries. Far worse is: you want to die, but due to disabilities, you are unable to end your life and are forced to live.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
1 month ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Doctors willing to sign off on killing people for the greater good? We just call them mengalistas.

jane baker
jane baker
1 month ago
Reply to  Bret Larson

Because most real good doctors don’t want to do it because of the implications they are going to allow private companies to do it. So good luck to anyone who voluntarily puts themselves into the power of and the hands of sadistic vampire executioners.

Jo Jo
Jo Jo
1 month ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

I understand Poilievre has said he won’t extend MAID to include mental illness, but hasn’t said he’ll dismantle MAID completely.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
1 month ago
Reply to  Jo Jo

He will need to dismantle the Supreme Court first.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

That’s a cynical response. One assumes you’re not in a position of terrible suffering.

Jonathan Andrews
Jonathan Andrews
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

No. I’m not.

That doesn’t mean I have no voice here.

I think of spies in the war, captured by the Nazis, taking a cyanide capsule to avoid brutal interrogation. I think of those poor souls with no hope of relief suffering terrible pain. I understand the impulse. I understand the desire to be free of the suffering.

Nike response is far from cynical; it is not unreasonable to worry that this might be abused.

I think of abortion. Shouldn’t it be safe, legal and rare? It is not; 200,000 abortions in the UK each year. Such things can grow beyond what the original legislators wanted to achieve.

jane baker
jane baker
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Virtue signaller.

jane baker
jane baker
1 month ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

I have read that the plan is to outsource to private companies. The act of murder won’t be carried out in NHS hospitals. I’m guessing that you will go to your GP who will have a duty to refer you on. I know a lot of GPs are repelled by this and the implications for them. So once they’ve done the referral you’ll be in the hands,or the premises of a private business. Now that premise of this bill is that the state pays the bill,that’s what we are being encouraged to assume. So even poor people like us can go in Dignitas style.
I hope Dame Death is going to publicly and flamboyantly sign up to be first in.the queue. She must be looking forward to a good old chat with her old mate Jimmy. However The State is never that generous with paying out as we know so maybe that last meal wont be oysters and champagne. More like a Greggs bake and cola. And those necessary chemical are expensive,they come from a factory in Germany. They developed quite an expertise in this sort of thing. So as it costs £400 to have your old dog put down,how much will the State be paying a private business to put you down. Only it might not be as painless and dignified as you think.

Lancashire Lad
Lancashire Lad
1 month ago

Kathleen Stock gives full rein to her considerable philosophical powers in this essay. Do i detect, however, an issue about which she’s being less than objective about when she argues that the concept of the ‘gendered soul’ has been utilised by transactivists to shift the Overton window on physical intervention, especially for a group that might be regarded as being at the opposite end of life to those the essay is concerned with in terms of vulnerability: the young? I would agree with her.

Her academic career has been hugely disrupted by being labelled a terf, so it’d be almost inhumanly objective of her not to be influenced in any way during exposition of her arguments. After all, is a professional.philosopher any less human than any of us?

In citing the ‘gendered soul’ issue in support of her case against assisted dying, there could be a parallel drawn with the concept of ‘the soul’ itself. What do we mean by that, and is it what distinguishes us from the rest of the animal kingdom? I pose the question but, i hasten to add, without positing an answer. However, if it were to be our distinguishing feature as humans, invoking therein such concepts as ‘dignity’ which seems central to the whole argument around assisted dying, we should remember that we have no qualms in relieving the suffering of animals, especially beloved pets, by intervening in their deaths. Might i also suggest that she clouds her argument, in this respect, by using the term “euthanising”.

But humans have a soul, and agency, we might insist. Again, i’m not suggesting that isn’t the case; what i’d ask the author to consider however, is whether invoking the ‘gendered soul’ argument (as an example where society shifts the dial) is any different in kind than considering humans as opposed to other animals based on a concept of soul; and if this isn’t the basis for her case against assisted dying – what is?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 month ago

Whilst I do agree with Kathleen Stock that the idea of suffering can vary from age to age, society to society and even individual to individual and what others class as being unbearable I’d probably disagree with vehemently, at the end of the day why is my opinion any more valid than theirs? Who am I to force people to carry on existing if they genuinely don’t want to?
As long as there’s safeguards to ensure they aren’t being pressured into it, and no doctor is forced to perform it if they don’t wish to them I say let people choose to end their life if they wish

Russell Hamilton
Russell Hamilton
1 month ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Agree. Ms stock cited the case of a Dutch woman who was ‘euthanised’ at age 29, so I Googled and the first result, a Guardian article, quotes the woman:

““I was on a waiting list for assessment for a long time, because there are so few doctors willing to be involved in assisted dying for people with mental suffering. Then you have to be assessed by a team, have a second opinion about your eligibility, and their decision has to be reviewed by another independent doctor.”

It sounded like a long and thorough process. I’m glad that, if I got a diagnosis of something like motor neurone disease, I live in a place that does have voluntary assisted dying, because I know I would want that option there.

Martin Goodfellow
Martin Goodfellow
1 month ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Did you read the article in full? There are no assured ‘safeguards’, as these qualifications are always subject to being degraded. Your argument for ‘choice’ is also criticised rightly as being based on immature reasoning, or hastily made feeling-based assumptions. The author laments that this is so, as it will lead to legally recognised killing that will be impossible to halt once it has been established.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 month ago

Would you respect a persons choice if they have a Do Not Resuscitate notice on them in hospital? Or if a Jehovahs Witness chooses death instead of a blood transfusion?
In both instances we’re letting people choose death when they could have otherwise by saved, so why is assisted suicide any different in that regard?

Martin Goodfellow
Martin Goodfellow
1 month ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Allowing yourself to die naturally is one thing; asking someone else to take, or facilitate the taking of your life is another. You seem to be hung up on the idea that personal choice is the pre-eminent factor. Your ‘choice’ can affect others, both directly and indirectly by influencing attitudes, so it’s not simply ‘yours’, in isolation. Take abortion as an example. Not so many years ago (I’m old enough to remember) abortion was considered unthinkable by most women, who saw it as horrible and immoral. Now, since it has been eroded into a ‘right’, sensitivity towards it has diminished and ‘pro-choicers’ are screaming for it, and outraged that it might be curtailed. Assisted suicide could, and probably will, go the same way, as Kathleen Stock fears.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago

Rubbish! “Not so many years ago abortion was considered unthinkable by most women”. Absolutely not true.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Exactly.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago

What might be the most obscene aspect of this issue is MPs making the decision about whether the legislation passes or not, in any country. I feel pretty confident in saying that they have very little individual input in the content of the legislation. These are the very last people who should be included in the debate. But our laws pass through parliament, that’s the way the system works, or not.
The fear of having to live in pain is great. I haven’t been around anyone who has had to endure it, so I have no first hand experience. As legislation it may be something we’re incapable of dealing with. Words like dignity, quality of life, autonomy, the soul, they bring me no closer to a personal resolution. What I can deal with are ideas like quality care, pain management and dignity under circumstances, What that means is financial investment in care: pharmaceutical, carers, accomodation, family, management and everything else that may be necessary. These are not “syrup-laden” platitudes but material solutions that can be easily put in place. There are people out there (not in parliament) who can make this work. The way we end our lives affects everyone, all generations. It’s not like the boomers chewing up the budget at the expense of coming generations. Everyone has an investment in making it work.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I think your use of the phrase ‘obscene’ part of the problem BH when we have to debate, as a Country, judgments like this.
We elect MPs because grappling with complex legislation is not something we can all do in some form of direct democracy. Jeez haven’t we learnt that from things like Brexit where something actually complex was overly simplified and then politicians had to work out what the hell it meant. And arguably something like Brexit much less important than an issue like this.
There will be some MPs not giving this sufficient thought, but most will agonise about it and take soundings from multiple quarters.
Destroying and undermining our institutions with hyperbolic criticism not the Burkean way.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

Despite what you say I don’t think this should be determined by these people. Therefore it cannot be approved in parliament. It doesn’t matter how agonising their decision is, they are not good enough to do it. In fact I don’t think it’s their right to make such a decision,
Destroying and undermining our institutions with hyperbolic criticism not the Burkean way.
If this is directed at my criticism of MPs then criticism is hardly destroying and undermining institutions, but declaring that they are not up to it. It may not be the Burkean way, but why should that be the only way?

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Is there another BH? The revolutionary thinks they can refashion a society quickly. History teaches they can’t and you destroy current institutions at your peril. Challenging them, changing them, allowing evolution – but ripping the roots out when those roots have taken far longer than you have to evolve history shows leads to some v bad endings.
Back to the Article – who would you have decide the law on assisting dying?

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

Back to the Article – who would you have decide the law on assisting dying?
Maybe just read my comments, there’s no point in me repeating my thoughts.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

You refer to needing individual input. There are 68million of us. How you managing this?
I’m not getting a sense you’ve really given it much thought beyond a dig at MPs, many of who work exceptionally hard.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

Maybe subs here only read replies to their own comments, otherwise you wouldn’t be asking me that. My position is that I’m not sure we’re capable of making decisions like AD that are sound and contain real safeguards to future-proof things that so often go off the rails. Things get very messy, ie. abortion and trans rights. Nor am I saying we need individual input. Where did you get that from?
I don’t believe that many politicians are any smarter than you or me. There are some, but not many. I don’t believe they’re any better at addressing these issues than I am. Presumably they receive and have access to many different views: medical, philosophical, sociological, etc. Well, give me access to the same then have a referendum.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I don’t understand what you mean in your first paragraph. Are you saying that there should be a referendum on the legislation? If so, all indications are that it would pass, as a majority of Britons are (as I understand it) in favour of VAD.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

No. I’m saying MPs aren’t good enough for this decision. Nor can you know how many of the people are for it. Anymore than you can say that about Australia.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

But surely in a parliamentary democracy, it is MPs who (collectively) make decisions like this? The only other way to do it is to have a referendum.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

Yes, you’re right. So I guess i’m saying that without MPs making the decision, who I don’t believe are capable (they can’t even deal with the simple thing), and without a referendum (always subject to political and socially entrenched pressures), without any alternative, this is a decision beyond our capabilities.

Russell Hamilton
Russell Hamilton
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

In Australia VAD was done state by state over time, so there were many, many polls and they all showed string support for VAD, so I think we did know that it had majority support.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago

You don’t know anything of the sort. Polls are not reliable evidence of anything.

Russell Hamilton
Russell Hamilton
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

You might doubt one or two polls, but when you have many, over time, I think you should accept that their predictive power is more accurate.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago

To me polls are suggestive of something but not necessarily a measure of something, And we know that polls are consistently used by those they benefit. A referendum is the only way for a closer feel, but that to is subject to campaigns by different interests.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago

I do note that New Zealand had a referendum before introducing their legislation. It got up with a 65% Yes vote.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I can’t hear anyone complaining about it having been legalised, and it seems to be working well.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago

And anyone who disagreed was ridiculed into silence.

Russell Hamilton
Russell Hamilton
1 month ago
Reply to  Janet G

Simply not true if you look at the news coverage. Are you seriously suggesting that the Catholic Church, for example, was ridiculed into silence?

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago

I watched an episode of Q&A in which the Catholic ethicist Margaret Sommerville, who has researched the whole issue in depth and who has accurately predicted slippery slope consequences, was definitely ridiculed and dismissed as lacking any compassion. An older woman said something along the lines of, “Don’t you tell me what to do. My husband and I will choose to die when we want to” and the audience showed wholehearted approval.
That is just one example. I think Kathleen Stock is correct when she says the “Be kind” message is a powerful persuader. It is an effective way of making objectors appear heartless.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Janet G

I didn’t see that episode, but I think the comment you referred to was a fair one. The Catholic Church might feel it can “make the rules” for Catholics, but why would non-Catholics care what they think about anything?

A Robot
A Robot
1 month ago

Brilliantly argued by Dr Stock, as always. One micro-quibble: the article over-optimistically states that “carers look after you in non-instrumental, respectful ways that acknowledge your intrinsic human worth”. Apart from ignoring care-home scandals, this assertion skates over the fact that in 2023 alone, the UK brought in 89,236 carer visa immigrants. What proportion is really looking forward to wiping bottoms in “respectful ways” that “acknowledge your intrinsic human worth”?

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  A Robot

Totally agree. This is not just the Uk. Quality care means professional, empathic carers, jobs that are valued and paid accordingly. Not filled by anyone who is only after an income with little long term commitment. This means they are professional appointments and appropriately paid.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Agree BH, which means a fundamental change on how we fund Social care so we can better value those working in it. But even then our demographics mean reliance on some significant immigration is not going away.
Instead the Right has ducked that and instead heaps prejudice on much of the workforce propping it up.
The answer means we all have to pay more for it. Watch for where you see the new Tory leader, or likes of Farage, ever admit this.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

I just realised, though, that I had conflated aged care with palliative care. Obviously two separate things. I’m not sure just who the staff are in palliative care and what conditions are like.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

There will be specialist palliative care practitioners – doctors and nurses. The basic care though will be delivered by staff much the same as in a Nursing Care Home. The specialist staff better paid, the more junior health care assistants much less. In a Hospice the person helping you with the basics will more often be the latter.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

In my experience (Australia) nursing home care is more rudimentary than hospice care, although there are staff in both that really do ‘care’. It is only recently that the government has ruled that every nursing home must have a registered nurse on duty at all time.

MJ Reid
MJ Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

The staff try very hard to treat people with dignity but when someone is on the maximum pain relief allowed and still screams in pain every time someone touches them and begs for it to stop, it is time to give them more even if it kills them. I know. I was there recently.

Edward Seymour
Edward Seymour
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

j watson In my opinion Reform UK has a very good position on the matter of improving services and social care. By getting millions more native British people back to work via a tax friendly system that encourages working over benefits. Further, relying on low skill immigration doesn’t solve the care problem because those very immigrants will need immigrants to care for them given non replacement birth rates. This is to say nothing of the fact that we now know that unskilled immigration is not an economic gain for us but an overall loss.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Edward Seymour

Nice theory. Collapses moment come into contact with reality. Corralling people into social care employment not going to raise standards and safety, and you assume they’d then have the qualifications, training and physicality (these are physical jobs) to function. You also assume that the need correlates with where greater economically inactive live. But if we paid more and trained better we could recruit more locally. You do imply you don’t really want to pay for that though. Cakeism I’m afraid.
As regards does the point ‘immigration just creates the same problem in due course’, it doesn’t hold. Our demographics mean we need more young, and not just to staff the care sector. (In fact leaving the EU reduced the incidence of migrants coming here to work and then returning home later in life because it was close and fairly similar – which of course in many ways was v optimal. We also hadn’t paid to educate and train them. Now we recruit from further afield and they do not return later. Great bit of Brexit thinking wasn’t it).
Unfortunately you are a bit like King Canute and the sea on this one. It can be better managed and better explained but get your head round it – it’s not stopping in your lifetime and v good chance you’ll end by being grateful in your dotage for a kind immigrant bringing you a cup of tea and helping you wash and dress.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I suspect the number of people who lack compassion and empathy outnumber those who possess it. Just because someone becomes a professional carer, nurse or doctor doesn’t mean they actually care.

jane baker
jane baker
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

That is true and I know because I am one. A person lacking in compassion and empathy. Up to now we have lived in a society where it was important to at least fake those qualities or make a token show,not that I bothered much but my experience of life has shown me that MOST PEOPLE are actually the same as me to a greater or lesser degree and it’s actually stupid and self defeating to have a ‘Saviour’ complex ( knew someone with this) and think that by taking on poverty and finding some suffering to embrace you are identifying with the POOR who are actually right ungrateful bastards. No it wasn’t me ,I’ve seen this and it’s stupid as is this death idea . I wonder how much they are paying the old girl to.front the scheme

Marcus Glass
Marcus Glass
27 days ago
Reply to  Brett H

And can’t be afforded. Where is the money better spent? Keeping alive someone who may only live another few miserable months or youth who have decades more to live. Some life prolonging treatments should be outlawed.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  A Robot

It doesn’t take much for someone in these comments to have a dig about immigrants. Now perhaps if you majored on what it would take to reduce reliance on carer recruitment abroad? But alas nothing. Too complicated. Instead let’s have a dig at the people holding the thing up.
It is true that in many Care settings there is considerable reliance on overseas workforce. One intriguing thing is that workforce, in general, tends more towards a ‘faith’ still being more important to them than the norm nowadays in the indigenous population, and that ‘faith’ often aiding and underpinning that caring vocation. These are generalisations of course, but something in it and you’d need to spend much more time in such settings to grasp that. That linkage probably something we should be grateful for.
No carer, and I’d class myself as one both in my current employment and with elderly relatives, welcome the distress you see when someone knows they need help with their most basic functions. And yet once well trained you realise quickly it is in these moments we most show our humanity and that is a blessing.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

It doesn’t take much for someone in these comments to have a dig about immigrants. Now perhaps if you majored on what it would take to reduce reliance on carer recruitment abroad?
Its my experience that too many immigrant carers in institution are not really up to the job, they simply don’t care enough or respect the workplace they’re in. Just because AR doesn’t have a solution doesn’t invalidate his point of view. In fact you’re playing the race card by suggesting that criticism of current services is based on race, when it’s on the lack of care, commitment and empathy by those employed.

Chipoko
Chipoko
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

The daughter of a good friend of ours is an intensive care nurse/practitioner (she can prescribe drugs) in a large English NHS hospital. She will shortly leave for a job in the private sector. One of her main reasons for leaving is the large increase in immigrant staff in the intensive care unit. She says that the first question most of them (all females) ask is how soon would they qualify for maternity leave. She says they have low standards, show little respect for their patients and play the race card at the slightest opportunity. We are losing a highly skilled, qualified, experienced professional because of the appalling situation in the NHS. Both our children (doctor and dentist) moved to Australia because they became so sick of the poor conditions and grinding managerialism in their respective NHS jobs.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Chipoko

Exactly the experience I was referring to.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Chipoko

Actually that’s what I do now too. And by sounds of it we’ll be better off without the daughter of your friend. She will be a significant outlier with an attitude like that and I’ve worked in many ITUs now around the country. NHS has relied on immigrant workforce for decades. Your friend’s daughter probably in the wrong profession if she judges people in such a sweeping way. We all get taught to see people as individuals.

Chipoko
Chipoko
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

Wow! You are unpleasantly judgemental. I suspect it is people like you who are motivating her to leave the NHS. Contributing unpleasant observations adds zero to a discussion. Better not to say anything rather than commenting and revealing how unpleasant you are.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Chipoko

I should add to my earlier point – there are v few private sector ITUs. The private sector doesn’t generally want to do the most complex, risky surgery and the staffing and cost can be a significant overhead. More often patients needing this back-up are done in the NHS or transferred back to the NHS. There are some but they tend to be in the internationally well known private hospitals – the Humana, the Wellington, Cleveland etc. And guess where most of their work comes from? – yep overseas folks flying in for treatment, alot from the middle east. So the daughter in this anecdote likely gone to work for only those who can pay with big chance they are also overseas visitors, because she doesn’t like working with immigrants! The irony. But then again there are some all about themselves who welcome a cover story.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

Could these thoughts of yours be due to conscious and unconscious bias, or is it just others who suffer from that?

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Just look up how many Private Hospitals have full Level 3 ITUs. You can check it as a fact.

jane baker
jane baker
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

They send the patients to the big NHS hospitals for scans etc that need the big expensive treatment.. Private hospitals are glorified hotels. It works like this ( got several instances among relatives and friends). Your GP refers you to a consultant. He,usually he,says you need XY procedure. I’ll put you on the list. How long is the wait you ask. On average it’s 3 years he says. How much does it cost if I pay and how soon can it be done,where and who by,you ask. The consultant replies £5K,by me,in that private hospital across the road on Friday afternoon.
It’s a no-brainer.

Chipoko
Chipoko
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

Unpleasant speculation. The ‘daughter’ has moved to a hospice run by a charity, and is taking a lower salary. She is a dedicated professional.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

And how much experience is that really BH? Are you sure your prejudice not out ahead of your true degree of experience, and even if you’ve some anecdotes that sufficient for such a sweeping reflex?
And yes – I am calling out a racial reflex when it’s there.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

What can I say? That’s been my experience. How do you assess the world around you?

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

You recognise your experience may be v skewed and greatly influenced by your own conscious and subconscious bias. Then you can share an anecdote.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

Right, and you think i’m a victim of that, incapable if assessing anything realistically, that everything I think is therefore wrong.

Santiago Saefjord
Santiago Saefjord
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

Thank you Watson.

A Robot, most immigrants decline assisted dying in polls. Most polls are crap anyway so the figure is probably lower than what is even recorded. Most immigrants are more religious than westerners and most of the carers are women. All in all, with this knowledge and my experience, I find most Asian and other immigrants who are long term carers in the UK do excellent work and culturally they care for the old more than our insipid culture. So I think it’s unfair to state that immigrants are short termist when I’ve witnessed the opposite in various different experiences with my family and friends in their old age.

Sue Sims
Sue Sims
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

Wow. That’s the first time I’ve agreed with J. Watson about anything.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago
Reply to  A Robot

My 94 year old completely dependent bedridden father died in a care home last year. Every single one of the ‘carer immigrants’ on whom you shamefully cast aspersions looked after him with kindness and humanity. Thank God they were there.

Andrew
Andrew
1 month ago
Reply to  A Robot

A Robot, it’s important to understand her point in making that quoted statement. She says (my bold) “this is recognised when carers look after you in non-instrumental, respectful ways that acknowledge your intrinsic human worth.”

“When” implies that she isn’t claiming that this condition is actually prevalent, only that it exists and could therefore be expanded, which in turn means that it is also possible to “retain dignity in spite of what is happening to you physically.”

It is her way of countering the assumption that dignity is dependent on a narrow set of conditions, for example those directly related to “inadequate and demeaning care standards” that may or may not continue to exist in the future. As she notes, “dignity is also a culturally porous entity, changing its shape according to prevailing norms and ideals.” Agitations for improved care, whether in a nursing home or palliative setting, can change the shape of what is considered dignified.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  A Robot

My thought exactly!!

Pedro Livreiro
Pedro Livreiro
1 month ago

The old medical adage has, “Thou shalt not kill, but needst not strive officiously to keep alive.” It seems that somehow, despite the arguments above, the doctor has some power of decision over the end of life. And it has been so for years. But assisted dying need not rely on the decision of the doctor. There is the Living Will, by which the conscious and capable person describes the future condition in which he or she wishes their life to end. It is an instruction, with the force of law, just like a will concerning property. The pressure for assisted dying should incorporate this mechanism for the exercising of personal choice; the choice that no-one in Britain enjoys today.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Pedro Livreiro

Living wills can definitely help PL and seen this in action. Most of course don’t have one. But regardless they are not quite the same as giving the individual the right to ask for assistance to bring their own life to a close in a more proactive manner. They tend to be more about what treatments should not be continued. That can help, but it’s not quite the same and therein lies the dilemma.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

It is a good idea for everyone to have a living will. Where I live there have been public campaigns to encourage this.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Janet G

Agree. I saw much more of this in N America.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 month ago

The “slippery slope” argument also applies to abortion – and we allow abortion based on a set of rules. Whatever happened to the endlessly repeated principle of “My body – My choice” ?

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 month ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

The “slippery slope” slopes in both directions(!). Yes there is a risk that people will be stampeded into assisted dying for reasons other than their own. But there is also a risk, currently ascendant, that people will be compelled to live in pain or indignity for reasons other than their own.
As with abortion and capital punishment the attitudes usually settle onto one end of the slippery slope and ignore the the reverse slippery slope. Hence we get motivated reasoning from one camp or the other with little chance of resolution.

Michael Askew
Michael Askew
1 month ago
Reply to  AC Harper

I am not sure the argument does work in both directions. It is currently illegal to help a person to commit suicide. Where does the slippery slope lead from there? We know what will happen if we continue with the present law – we can see it all around us. The slippery slope argument applies to potential future legal changes, where we don’t know what the unintended consequences will be.

Jon Hawksley
Jon Hawksley
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Askew

An example of a current slippery slope is a practioner limiting pain relief to avoid claims they assisted a suicide. An excellent article highlighting unintended consequences. Particularly the power of the imagination. It will happen, so maybe we should argue for an irrevocable opt out to ensure that it can never be applied to oneself by other “well meaning” people.

Clare De Mayo
Clare De Mayo
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon Hawksley

Another example is elderly people saving and hiding their medication so they can make an exit at some point of their choice, often without the best drugs and often alone.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare De Mayo

Exactly. My mother was old and had enough of living. She was determined to kill herself so to make sure she had a peaceful exit I sent her enough of the right kind of sleeping pills (available then not now) that she took with alcohol after stopping all her meds. She was in Australia and I couldn’t get there but my sister was with her and she just went to sleep and died. Isn’t that what we all want?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon Hawksley

Good luck trying to get some effective pain medication in the US after the opioid crisis. The DEA has instigated knee-jerk rules that have doctors living in fear of losing their licenses if they give any dose that might work. Talk about living in pain and suffering! It’s a situation that is making more people not want to live.

Michael Luckie
Michael Luckie
1 month ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Who is compelling anyone to live in pain or indignity?
My wife is dying. She’s had two stays in a hospice. She has certainly known terrible pain. It was very distressing to watch. With patient thoroughness, the doctors and pharmacist found a balance of drugs to control it. I can’t praise enough both them and nurses and cleaners for their honesty, kindness and respect for both her and me.
Equally I praise the hospice community nurse and the district nursing team. Plus our two GPs who are quickly responsive and knowledgeable.
My wife has the the option of dying at home or in the hospice. Esther Rantzen – whose New Forest home is not far from mine in the next county – should campaign for more hospices and better hospice care.

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Luckie

I was referring to the slippery slope(s) – the argued endpoint being compulsion to die when not wanted by the individual or the compulsion to live on when not wanted by the individual.
I am in favour (generally) of personal autonomy and do not want (possibly) well meaning interference by others. But sometimes the individual is no longer capable of giving consent – either way.
After seeing a relative receive good hospice care I do support their use. But you have to wonder why comparable NHS hospital care falls short.

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Luckie

Both options are not mutually exclusive. More excellent hospices, like our local one- but also, the choice to shorten a lingering, painful death.

MJ Reid
MJ Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Luckie

Hospice care only works to a point. My partner died in a hospice in great pain screaming in agony every time anyone touched him. He had cancer which had spread everywhere from his bladder. He was considered “too old and disabled” for treatment. But he wasnt allowed to die even though he begged for it over and over. There was little dignity at the end. I hope your wife and yourself have a better outcome.

Michael Luckie
Michael Luckie
1 month ago
Reply to  MJ Reid

That your partner was “not allowed to die” is poor medicine.

“Thou shalt not kill. But thou shall not officiously strive to keep alive” is a reasonable ethical position. It is not the same as enabling a death. Rather it is accepting the inevitable that comes to us all in as gentle way as possible.

All doctors involved have made very clear to both of us that my wife will die of an extremely aggressive cancer. That attempted treatment to prolong her life would achieve little. The emphasis now is on the quality of life that she has left.

I am sincerely sorry that your partner – and you – did not have better care. I am also sorry for your loss.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Luckie

Your post doesn’t say anything about what your wife thinks about the manner and mode of her passing. I take it that she is happy with how things are going, and would have no wish to be assisted to pass, but it’s something I would be keen to hear from her.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago
Reply to  AC Harper

In the state of New South Wales, Australia, the government recently reduced the funds going to hospice care. This coincided with the introduction of legal medically assisted dying. A cynical move it seems to many of us.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Janet G

Maybe the take up of VAD has reduced the need for hospice care.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 month ago

As with many others who write on the topic, they refer to “assisted suicide” as though it were the same as “euthanasia”. This author should know better.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Surely the term “euthanasia” conveys the impression of a decision taken by someone other than the soon-to-be-deceased?

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

And who’s to say that it won’t slide inexorably into just that?

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Presumably the legislation would provide that it wouldn’t.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

So why the problems in Canada?

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I have heard a number of Canadians (including on on this thread) say there are no problems in Canada.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

There doesn’t seem to be much objective detailed case data from Canada – just received opinion.

CF Hankinson
CF Hankinson
1 month ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

The author’s point clearly being that there is a wide slippery slide from one to the other. Starting with the internalised pressure to conform to others so in the end the difference slips away. And to not give permission to have their life ended is felt as selfish absolving all of the burden on increased expensive palliative care.

Nicola Burkinshaw
Nicola Burkinshaw
1 month ago

This is an exceptional argument covering virtually every point there is against state-sponsored killing (I refuse to call it by its euphemistic name) but I do think there is one more element to this weird new campaign: the romanticisation of death. Despite everyone declaring themselves atheist these days there is an odd excitement about suicide in all its forms. It is the go-to threat of teens and spurned lovers, easier to make now that the Peter Pan idea of an “awfully big adventure” seems to have replaced the more prosaic image of “wormfood”. We seem to be avoiding actually trying to live life well, ignoring the necessity of struggle to give our existence meaning. There is a big philosophical reckoning coming and I suspect that those who have maintained religious outlooks will be tempted to say “I told you so”.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago

I suspect that those who have maintained religious outlooks will be tempted to say “I told you so”’. I imagine they will seek to do just that. It would be in keeping with the smug and holier-than-though way many of them live their lives.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

Sounds very smug and holier than “them”?

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

One main difference: I would not presume to intrude on their choice, but they presume to intrude on mine.

A J
A J
1 month ago

Romanticising death, yes – I also see this in Esther Rantzen’s wish to die in her New Forest Cottage. Having a “good death” is increasingly meaning a beautiful location as well as an easy slipping away. To m, it paradoxically implies a clinging to the best the material world has to offer for as long as possible.

Sarah Lane
Sarah Lane
1 month ago
Reply to  A J

I think if ‘having a good death’ actually meant being able to die peacefully with well funded palliative care, either at home or at a hospice, the call for assisted suicide would have less of a hold on the imagination. It’s hard to not cynically view this approach as a way of reducing NHS costs for end of life care….

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 month ago

I’ve been atheist since I was eight years old, but rarely felt the need to ‘declare’ myself. And it is irritating that people of a religious nature like to portray anyone atheist as living a life bereft of meaning. We don’t all belong in labelled boxes in which everyone has the same views. We are a world of Venn diagrams.

So I hereby declare myself as atheist – and extremely worried about the current trend towards helping people to kill themselves.
What a burden to put on someone – who do you select for the privilege of administering the fatal blow?
If ever I felt that that was the only way out of an unbearable situation I’d do it myself, not ‘ask a friend’.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

I agree with you on the “atheism” bit, and also the “do it myself” bit. The only problem is when you no longer have the capacity to “do it yourself”.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago

Is it a very difficult issue and v much welcome Articles like this.
Author is correct the hyperbolic language so often used in political discourse does not aid calm, rationale thinking that needs to strike the right balance on a v complex issue. She is also so right that we need to be v mindful of where a benign intent can lead. She linked this to Gender Recognition Act. One could add perhaps a similar trend followed the Abortion Act of 67. It’s advocates then never intended it to facilitate quite where we’ve ended up and a close reading of the legislation makes that clear. Perhaps though not the equivalence the Author prefers.
Back to the issue – and yet to see someone in pain and distress wanting help to maintain their own autonomy but not be allowed by law is also incredibly difficult.

A J
A J
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

But death IS a loss of autonomy; the ultimate such loss. We used to understand this, and see a spiritual benefit in graceful acceptance – many cultures and religions teach this the world over. We are corrupted by the delusion of autonomy that wealth offers.

Joanne Matheson
Joanne Matheson
1 month ago
Reply to  A J

Yes – many cultures embrace this graceful acceptance of when the appropriate end has arrived, and celebrate when a person is able to make the decision for themselves, on their own terms. We seem fixated on keeping a human body technically alive for as long as possible, even when the person themselves has long since departed, for fear of being accused of not doing everything possible.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago

Voluntary Assisted Dying is coming to Britain, as it has come to many other countries, including Australia (where I live). The reason is that the people in those countries are in favour of it. Those who oppose it are just going to have to come to terms with that fact.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

Those who oppose it are just going to have to come to terms with that fact.
I’m not going to make any criticism of those who support assisted dying, but there will be a time when things go a bit sideways. It seems inevitable to me and it doesn’t have to happen. But the fear of living in pain is great, as is no longer being an autonomous being, and most support in the country will probably come from people who’ve had no experience of the end of life and what palliative care is. It’s possible, being legal, that I might choose it myself. I would not want to judge others who have faced it. But at least we could make sure that palliative care is the best we could have and a real alternative. And I do wonder how assisted dying might affect the quality of palliative care. But we have no idea on how many people want it. A referendum has never been carried out.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I am not anti-palliative care, but when I reach the point where I can’t perform ablutions without assistance, I’m checking out (whether by means of VAD, or with the assistance of things that reside in my gun cabinet). That is an entirely personal view, and I have no issue with others taking a different path.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

I understand. However I don’t know how i’ll respond at the time. It’s all theoretical at this stage, and maybe all based on fear.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Do you support patients being allowed to give Do Not Resuscitate notices in hospital? Surely that’s not too different to assisted suicide, as doctors are letting a person die who they could otherwise have saved? Likewise with Jehovahs Witnesses refusing blood, should they be forced to accept treatment they don’t want in order to carrying on living?

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I think I agree with everything you say.

Russell Hamilton
Russell Hamilton
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I can’t remember the statistics, but a significant number of people who are accepted for Voluntary Assisted Dying, and have access to the drug, don’t take it, they find the pallative care is sufficient. They just wanted the reassurance that if things became unbearable they had an exit. So, offering good pallative care, as well as VAD, seems a reasonable way to go.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago

Yes, i’ve seen interviews with people who were accepted for AD but didn’t do it. Though I don’t know of the final outcome. I really don’t think many of us have enough information on this state of end-of-life to make decisions about what the answer is. But I do think high quality palliative care is something that can be easily addressed without the ethical bind we face with AD.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago

I actually don’t have a problem with the two being combined. Something like “You are on a morphine drip. Don’t push the button more that six times in a day. If you push it ten times, you will die”.

Michael Bigg
Michael Bigg
1 month ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Letting a person die (in accordance with their wishes) is not the same at assisting them to die.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Bigg

Why not? If you have the ability to save them and prolong their life but instead choose to let them die (if that is the patients wish) why is that so different to assisting them to do so, especially if they’re terminally ill and will likely go in the next few months anyway?
Why do you respect one persons wishes to die (such as in the examples I mentioned) but not those who request assisted suicide?

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I can only speak of my own experience of those close to me dying, but my answer is that dying is a process. Some choose to live through that process until they take their last breath, without interruption. I have seen three close loved ones choose such an ending, one in a hospice (heavily medicated for pain), one in a hospital (with minimal intervention) and one at home (with just one pain tablet). In all three cases the dying was gentle.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 month ago
Reply to  Janet G

And I’ve seen a family member whittle down to nothing, barely able to eat and just wishing it was all over. She told me if the option was there she’d have taken it. By the end she was so pumped full of drugs she didn’t know where she was by the time she shuffled off.
Her being alive for that last few months was absolutely pointless, as harsh as that sounds. She didn’t want to be here, couldn’t do anything and the rest of us were simply counting down the days and visiting out of a sense of duty.
Give me deadly cocktail over that any day

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Fear of what? Certainly not fear of dying!

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

Fear of chronic, debilitating, endless pain.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

In my own case, and debilitating pain I suffer at end of life isn’t going to last long.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

“Those who oppose it are just going to have to come to terms with that fact.”

As long as “those who oppose it” don’t end up also comprising the subset of people expected to undergo the treatment, I’m guessing?

If it does, even partly so, I think we might have missed a few crucial considerations here.

Peter B
Peter B
1 month ago

Another article starting from an obviously false generalisation:
“Deep down, everybody knows that the introduction of assisted dying legislation will create a new tier of vulnerable people who decide to jump before nature pushes them, and who would not have done so otherwise.”
No. That’s not true. I certainly do not believe this. What right has Dr. Stock to claim to speak for all of us ?
The article is ridden with such subtle manipulations and emotional arguments – the same faults the author claims to find in her opponents.
As usual, the hidden undertone is of a minority group of people wishing to assert their religious and/or cultural beliefs over a majority. The tyranny of a minority and the very same thing so many of us object to when it’s called DEI or positive discrimination.
And as others have noted, we’re already on the “playground slide” with abortion.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter B

Deep down, everybody knows that the introduction of assisted dying legislation will create a new tier of vulnerable people who decide to jump before nature pushes them, and who would not have done so otherwise.”
No. That’s not true. I certainly do not believe this.
“Everybody knows” is a big statement. Of course you don’t know if it’s actually wrong. But like Kathleen you’re allowed to believe what you like. Nor do you know it’s a minority against it, unless there was a referendum.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Plus, just because one do not happen to believe something does not automatically make it untrue.

Sue Sims
Sue Sims
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter B

Kathleen Stock is an atheist.

Peter B
Peter B
1 month ago
Reply to  Sue Sims

And I never said she wasn’t (“religious and/or cultural beliefs”). And even if she is, she still has personal beliefs and prejudices just like the rest of us. Which I have no problem with. As long as she’s not trying to force them on the rest of us. However politely and covertly she might be doing it. And as long as she’s being intellectually honest about what she’s doing.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Sue Sims

Kathleen Stock is an atheist.
Presumably you are not. Which means you prefer to look at the world through your intellect and address issues logically. But your comment doesn’t seem to suggest that.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Oops, that came out wrong.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

You are presumably religious. How does your position make Stock wrong? How does using her god-given ability to think and comprehend the world mean her opinion can be dismissed by calling her an atheist?

Claire Grey
Claire Grey
1 month ago

Excellent piece, thank you. I think there is a dangerous, political dimension to ‘assisted dying’, implied perhaps, but has been left out, which is how convenient officially sanctioned assisted dying would be in our current neo-liberal/socially communist democracy. To be able to ease the exit of people who do not ‘contribute’ to society as such would be cheaper for the government and ease the burden on the NHS.

Trans is a similar issue from this point of view, though from a different angle, there is a lot of money to be made with trans (instead of money saved) by making ‘gender’ something you can acquire; drugs, wardrobes, accessories, plastic surgery etc, plenty of profit to be made in the market.

It seems to be these new liberal directions, like trans already, and assisted dying potentially, in our society, when they can be combined with either huge profits or savings, are particularly dangerous and damaging to us as human beings. The market, capital, is leading the way and the market has no morals.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 month ago
Reply to  Claire Grey

Well said Claire. The whole ‘trans’ debacle has shown how easily we can be sucked down a rabbit hole of unintended consequences. The GRA (a nonsense bit of legislation that conflates sex & gender) has led to actual ‘self id’ in which men may now legitimately pretend to be women to the extent that some men’s sex fetishes must now be accepted in every public sphere as a showpiece of some wonderful aspect of ‘diversity’. How long before ‘assisted dying’ becomes ‘mercy killing’ becomes just… killing.
And thence to actual murder becoming just another ‘diverse’ aspect of our social contract.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Very unlikely.

Kiddo Cook
Kiddo Cook
1 month ago

Again, shock horror at where the thin end of the wedge leads. A society that allows a mother to kill a baby and call it termination will naturally kill anyone that’s inconvenient, more predictable angst and faux moral panic.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Kiddo Cook

Not “baby”. “Fetus”. One is not allowed to kill babies in Britain.

Kiddo Cook
Kiddo Cook
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

Wrong, more than 4m human lives killed for convenience since 1967. Only women can kill legally, sorrowfully tragic

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Kiddo Cook

My point is that they were “fetuses” not “babies”. Completely different.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

It’s a foetus until delivery. But delivery times vary. So definition is pretty vague. A premature baby, born much earlier than is considered the average term, is suddenly a baby, even though the others still in the womb but older are considered as a foetus

Kiddo Cook
Kiddo Cook
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Both are human beings and both are killed : the unborn and the born. No legal technicalities can validate difference. Everyone knows this is true.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Kiddo Cook

I would absolutely dispute that is true, and so would many others commenting on this thread. My view is that something that is not viable outside the womb can be aborted (and it would seem the law agrees).

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

Sure, but just admit it’s murder.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Nope. No more so than removing an appendix is “murder”.

Kiddo Cook
Kiddo Cook
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

That’s the real problem with so much of today : people believe they have their very own truth. Facts are negotiable depending on the weather. Nope, life, the universe and everything does work that way. There is only one truth, no personal truth, truth is non negotiable. That’s why there’s phrases such as neo con, post this or post that. All of them follow the idea of relativism to dent truth to serve the self. Even scientific fact is negotiable depending on politics or race or sex : garbage, all of it . Trouble today is that after decades of coddling, truth and fact disturb and trigger so many. But in this one, the truth is their in front of even the eyes of those in denial. An unborn baby is a human being. No amount of legal text or false viability utility can change the fact.
.

Kiddo Cook
Kiddo Cook
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

Foetus is an unborn baby and a human being – abortion is legalised killing identical to legalised killing of the old and infirm.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Kiddo Cook

We will have to agree to disagree.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 month ago
Reply to  Kiddo Cook

This is a false equivalence. One can be pro-choice for women when it comes to abortion, but very dubious about ‘assisted dying’.
This is far too complex a topic about which to make sweeping generalisations.

Kiddo Cook
Kiddo Cook
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Wrong. How is it false? Women kill their unborn child. Some very subnormal minds consider the unborn child as a mass of unfeeling cells, as commented elsewhere. All you need to see is a 12 week aborted baby (foetus if it helps) to know this is a human being- facts are very inconvenient for some.

Pedro Livreiro
Pedro Livreiro
1 month ago

And another thing: who owns my body? My estate is responsible for its disposal. Who owns my life? We often hear of a life being taken, but from whom? My body, my life, my choice.
We do not allow animals to suffer (it means physical pain in this context) and are happy or encouraging for them to be euthanised. Are we so very different?

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Pedro Livreiro

The difference with animals is 1) there is no palliative care for animals and 2) they’re owned by someone.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Surely we “own” ourselves, and are accordingly qualified to make this decision on our own behalf?

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

That’s true. What I mean is that the power to euthanise an animal by the owner is never questioned, which makes it so easy.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

And the monetary cost of palliative care for an animal is very high.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

Yes we are. So if it’s my own decision, I’ll do what I want when I want & not rely on someone else to do me in. No reason for ‘the state’ to be involved.

Clare De Mayo
Clare De Mayo
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Well, unfortunately many lose the ability to make that decision when the time comes, either through lack of physical control, or lack of means. Botched suicide attempts can lead to terrible consequences, and many find themselves without anyone to assist them even if that were legal to do so.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

It’s not that easy.

Joanne Matheson
Joanne Matheson
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Of course there’s palliative care for animals, we do it ourselves, at home, until such time as they are in too much pain.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago

Of course animals cannot speak and make their wishes known. Nor do we leave it so late that they are in prolonged pain.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago
Reply to  Pedro Livreiro

In my experience, living years on a small island, it is those who most insisted they love animals who are quickest to kill them kindly, and for different reasons. They do it for themselves or society, not for the animals. Or rather, not even for themselves really but to preserve an acceptable image of themselves in the perceived eyes of the society. People actually fought viscous wars over who would get to be the director of the dominant humane society, and for numbers of supporting followers and backers.

You only have to look at use of insecticides and weed killers, let alone processed meat to realise how many prefer to kill through a sterilised and proxy medium, with their eyes turned the other way.

Graeme Crosby
Graeme Crosby
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Just how gloopy did these viscous wars get?

Michael Luckie
Michael Luckie
1 month ago
Reply to  Pedro Livreiro

You had no choice about being born, of course.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Pedro Livreiro

We often hear of a life being taken, but from whom?
From those that loved the life. A life is taken from the living. The disappearance of life is no small thing. To the living it’s everything. Life owns the living.

Citizen Diversity
Citizen Diversity
1 month ago
Reply to  Pedro Livreiro

If you could control your body you could stop it from dying.
‘Your’ body is one that you did not create. The sea is in your body. All the salts and minerals that it contains replicate the marine environment in which life evolved.
Your body needs no assistance to die. It will do it for you.
People spend thousands of pounds having their animals treated in animal hospitals.
If you have to fill in a form with predetermined criteria to gain assisted dying, this is institutional control, not freedom of choice.

Susan Grabston
Susan Grabston
1 month ago

Interesting how AD has become the right solution at a time when we see the convergence of sovereign debt crises and aged populations. MAID now accounts for 8% of deaths in Quebec ….

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 month ago
Reply to  Susan Grabston

How many of those though were terminally ill and would have been dead in six months time anyway? I’d wager it hasn’t actually caused more deaths than there otherwise would have been, it’s just allowed many to go out much easier than they otherwise would have done

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
1 month ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

After all everyone does in the end.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
1 month ago
Reply to  Susan Grabston

❝MAID now accounts for 8% of deaths in Quebec ….❞ That is interesting. Do you have a link to the statistics?

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
1 month ago
Reply to  Susan Grabston

I heard some crazy number for Victoria.

Joanne Matheson
Joanne Matheson
29 days ago
Reply to  Susan Grabston

Many people have been discussing this situation and arguing for and against for several decades. This issue has hardly just popped up because the timing is right.

Richard Hopkins
Richard Hopkins
1 month ago

This book starts with the State’s adjustment of the traditional moral compass, by introducing selective euthanasia and ends up somewhere rather different.

Into that Darkness by Gitta Sereny.

https://gsarchive.net/mikado/webopera/mk105a.html

Amy Cools
Amy Cools
1 month ago

One issue this otherwise excellent essay doesn’t address and seems to me of central importance – from being one of the caregivers of a family member who died gradually under palliative care – is the array of technological advances in medical science that enable people with chronic, degenerative conditions or massive injuries to live longer, prolonging life (often with sharply reduced or even no consciousness, caused by palliative drugs or the brain ceasing to fully function) but also prolonging the process of dying. It seems to me that given these advances, we can’t grapple with the ethics of intervening to hasten death without grappling with the ethics of intervening to prolong life very far beyond what nature previously allowed.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Amy Cools

It seems to me that given these advances, we can’t grapple with the ethics of intervening to hasten death without grappling with the ethics of intervening to prolong life very far beyond what nature previously allowed.
Yes. Is it possible there are issues we are incapable of dealing with in an ethical way, and then in the end it gets too hard and we throw our hands up in the air and say “Just do it.”? Which amounts to taking the easy route and letting the cards fall where they may.

jane baker
jane baker
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

But it’s ALL ABOUT US. We are upset.and disturbed by the suffering of the person,we feel upset and disturbed. We have EVERY RIGHT not to be upset and disturbed by anything. How dare they feel pain and inconvenience US. We are a selfish society that pretends to care which is easier.and.cheaper than really.caring.

Clare De Mayo
Clare De Mayo
1 month ago
Reply to  Amy Cools

I think your point is very important here. We all seem to be circling around some notion of what is ‘natural’, and a vague belief that with a good dose of stoicism we will be able to cope with what life (or death) serves up to us. Whether (as the author mentions), it be jumping on a horse after an amputation, or living with distressing incontinence. Modern medicine is completely interventionist, at what point do we call ‘time’ and let ageing or disease play out? We are all in a dance with death and with life, and we all have to make a choice about what we personally determine makes enduring that struggle worth it. In both cases: prolonging life through aggressive treatments or drugs (or health regimes), and ‘assisting’ death through forms of medical euthanasia (or individual suicide), we are playing god, taking an action to bring about a desired outcome. I doubt there is an easy black or white option in this argument. It is thousands of shades of grey, determined perhaps by individual personality and values, family and friendship support or the lack of it, financial circumstances, opportunity and luck, community support or the lack of it and many many other factors, as individual as each person who is dealing with this dilemma.

M. Jamieson
M. Jamieson
1 month ago
Reply to  Amy Cools

Is it the ethics of prolonging life we really struggle with? People are already allowed to refuse these kinds of interventions. And in my experience, people with medical experience are much more likely to do so.
I think the problem is a combination of many people lacking a clear understanding of what the interventions will do for them, and also society not being very good at teaching people that death is inevitable.
I know a number of people who come from a background that prefers doctors to make decisions for them about things like treatment. It’s difficult for doctors, in that scenario, to do anything but choose the intervention.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago
Reply to  M. Jamieson

Some of my friends and acquaintances are devotees of the religion of medicine. Others are more inclined to stand back and pause before accepting aggressive treatment. When my partner died recently of a heart condition, having said quite definitively that she did not want to go to hospital, a friend asked me why we didn’t ‘do more’. ‘There are wonderful things they can do for heart problems these days.’ It was unthinkable to her that anyone would refuse an available treatment.

Jonathan Andrews
Jonathan Andrews
1 month ago
Reply to  M. Jamieson

My 90 year old father is keen to avoid medical treatment and would prefer to endure considerable discomfort at times.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago
Reply to  Amy Cools

Which is why it is a good idea to write an Advanced Care Directive and also to include in your will your wishes with regard to resuscitation and medical interventions when you are nearing the end of life.

Chipoko
Chipoko
1 month ago

On this one I disagree with Kathleen Stock.
It should be the right of every sane person, in full possession of their faculties, to seek an assisted death in the face of advanced terminal illness or extreme pain/discomfort, or both. Of course there has to be a proper legal framework for such a process in order to protect vulnerable people from either making inappropriate decisions or from being exploited. No system is perfect; but on balance I would far prefer to die assisted if suffering terrible pain or discomfort rather than being kept alive for the sake of prolonging life unduly.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 month ago
Reply to  Chipoko

Being in full possession of my faculties, if I wanted the ‘option of assisted dying’ then I would do it myself, rather than placing the burden of killing me onto a loved one.

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

A loved on being involved wasn’t mentioned. That’s the point of changing the law.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Easy for you to say. Do you have a foolproof plan? If so please share.

Chipoko
Chipoko
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

I agree. But some people might not be able to kill themselves, however much they wished to do so.

Chipoko
Chipoko
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Also, I would want to die in a gentle, pain-free manner – administered by a qualified medic. Not by my own hand in a ghastly manner.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Chipoko

Or trying to kill yourself and botching it and being worse off.

D Ra
D Ra
1 month ago

I would like the option of assisted dying – if need be – when my time comes.
Perhaps the decisions on adopting it shoulld be put to the people via a referndum.

Douglas Redmayne
Douglas Redmayne
1 month ago

Assisted suicide shpuld be a choice and it is none of the business of moralisers lile Stock who are happy for people to suffer as a matter of principle. Once passed it will be popular and irreversible. Glad I voted Labour because of this.

Andrew
Andrew
1 month ago

Where does Stock express being “happy for people to suffer as a matter of principle”?

penny wright
penny wright
1 month ago

Excellent, this clarity is unlikely to even provide pause to those who imagine autonomy is a value and that compassion means supporting anything a person claims to be their choice, but it does assist those doctors, lawyers, family members who just know the rush to calling killing a legitimate end of life choice, some comfort.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

The ‘rational’ and ‘scientific’ left has always had a tendency for radical ‘solutions’ including voluntary euthanasia or ‘assisted dying’ as its now called. This is alarming given what seems to be Labour’s ageist agenda in which eldery people are seen as an expensive nuisance blocking younger generations from accessing housing and wealth. And who will be responsible for dispensing death with dignity? Why, doctors and nurses of course, and hopefully most will refuse to assume this moral burden although one cannot count on it these days.

Malcolm Webb
Malcolm Webb
1 month ago

A brilliant article which so precisely shines a bright light on the dangers inherent in the legalisation of assisted dying and the negligence of this who promote it. Kathleen Sock does great service to humanity in this wonderful piece of passionate and insightful writing. I am going to forward to widely I urge you to do the same.

Philip Stott
Philip Stott
1 month ago

If I ever found myself in Crown court looking at a lengthy sentence, I would want Dr. Stock for my silk.
I am in favour of assisted dying for myself. But after reading this, I wonder if that is selfish attitude to hold, given the harms to broader society the author articulates so well.

Graham Cunningham
Graham Cunningham
1 month ago

Beautifully written discussion of these treacherously shifting sands.

Philip Anderson
Philip Anderson
1 month ago

This article reads exactly like Polly Toynbee’s recent “Two deaths shaped my belief in the right to die. This bill could change everything” article in the Guardian.
Except of course, from the other side of the irrational and ideological, emotion driven and nuance absent debate.
Both articles are: equally sanctimonious, equally arrogant, equally driven by emotion rather than by fact and equally unhelpful.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

Except one institutionalizes killing by the state.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Just as an observation; the states in the US where the death penalty still exists have for a long time fumbled the actual death itself and cannot seem to decide on the best and most effective way of “killing” someone.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

To my mind, having the State do something useful occasionally is a good thing.

Zenon Bańkowski
Zenon Bańkowski
1 month ago

I have read both the article and I disagree. Stock’s article is a careful philosophical piece which unpacks the meaning of slippery terms and the consequences of that. It’s beauty is that it has no religious argument. Toynbee’s piece is emotionally laden and full of assertion. She focusses on two cases forgetting the legal maxim’Hard Cases make bad law’. Ironically it is full of religious argument since in laying all the blame on religion, as she does in all her writing on this, she has no arguments against those whose arguments are secular.

Kolya Wolf
Kolya Wolf
1 month ago

I think it is perfectly rational and ethically legitimate for people to consider how their disability impacts on the lives of others, and contemplate a threshold of costs – both material and psychological – caused to those they love, which they are not prepared to exceed.
It is wrong for the law to prevent them acting in a civilised way on such judgements.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 month ago
Reply to  Kolya Wolf

The law does not ‘prevent’ anyone from ‘acting in a civilised way’ – if by that you mean killing themselves. But we are talking here about getting another person to administer the death pill or injection or pillow or whatever means would be considered appropriate.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago
Reply to  Kolya Wolf

That is how the good Germans were expected to behave. Very civilized.

Nick Wade
Nick Wade
1 month ago

I’m waiting for Harold Shipman to be pardoned. He must feel very hard done by.

If anyone has any faith in our country’s institutions, and the medical profession in particular, concerning assisted dying after the Covid debacle, they need their head examining.

Joanne Matheson
Joanne Matheson
1 month ago

Interesting article. I get the concerns about a slippery slope, and potential for the elderly to be put under pressure to depart before they are ready, but I’m certain that sensible steps can be put in place to guard against it. Overall this article made me angry about the simplistic attitude that we should do everything possible to prolong a human life. To call this “state-sponsored killing” is insulting in the extreme. I can only imagine that the author has never had to nurse the body of a loved one when the body is still technically alive but the person has long since departed. A person who saw this end coming and begged for the family to be able to put an end to it when the time was right, and trusted their family not to do so too soon. It’s ugly, painful and horribly disrespectful to force a person to stay alive against their will, when there is no hope of recovery or improvement. My father was physically removed from his home with Police assistance, taken to hospital and force-fed, put through surgery which he wasn’t fit for following a fall and ultimately died in a care home where we couldn’t be with him. How much additional cost to the NHS was incurred for those last three miserable months of his ‘life’, because people were afraid to let him slip away peacefully at home, in spite of his own insistence that that is what he wanted, and our acceptance that it needed to be his decision. Go and spend some time with people in this situation before you proclaim your holier-than-though opinion that the human body should be kept breathing for as long as possible, without any consideration for the wishes of the person inside.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 month ago

I don’t think KS is suggesting that we “do everything possible to prolong a human life”. Only that we should think much more carefully before introducing state sanctions for the taking of it.
But if you are indeed “certain that sensible steps can be put in place” to guard against anyone putting pressure, however subtle’ on some elderly or unwell people to ‘do the right thing’, then maybe that’s just collateral damage we will have to live with – one of the unintended consequences that often flow from the best intentioned actions.
Personally I would rather make it clear to those I love & who love me that I will do it for myself rather than ever ask them to ‘assist’ in my death.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

I agree with the last sentence, and have a similar policy. My only issue is what happens if I am incapacitated, and can’t “do it for myself”.

Joanne Matheson
Joanne Matheson
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

By the time you are ready to make that decision you may not be able to do it yourself.

Michael Bigg
Michael Bigg
1 month ago

I don’t think I’ve ever seen people advocate for keeping people alive in this way. What happened to your father was terrible, and I’d be interested to know the grounds on which such a procedure was done against his will. That kind of thing needs to be resolved before assisted dying is introduced.

Joanne Matheson
Joanne Matheson
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Bigg

Unfortunately it doesn’t take much to argue that a person has lost rational capacity and the mental health legislation kicks in, which is the grounds upon which they did what they did.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago

How did the police become involved? Who ordered him to be forced out of his home? This story is very worrying.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Janet G

Or just not altogether accurate.

Joanne Matheson
Joanne Matheson
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

It’s completely accurate, I can give you the details and the results of my complaint. A homecare visitor came to check on him and decided he needed taking to hospital, and when he insisted that he didn’t want to go they called the Police to restrain him and put him in the ambulance. They argued that he was no longer able to make a rational decision for himself, and ‘forgot’ to call us.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago

Sure, give me more details.

Joanne Matheson
Joanne Matheson
29 days ago
Reply to  Brett H

I’ve given you more details above – what more do you want to know? It became apparent afterwards that the home care team and the GPs were paranoid that we might complain that they hadn’t done everything possible, despite the fact that we had already discussed the situation at length with all of them, and everyone was agreed that nothing more could be done. But on the day in question they ‘forgot’ all about that and also ‘forgot’ to call us to discuss the situation – my brother only lived 40 minutes away. The whole ugly process took around 4 hours. The GP surgery had spoken to me on an almost daily basis for the previous couple of months, and knew me well, and had seemed, up until then, completely rational, supportive and understanding. I’d seen him that morning and then had to drive home to Scotland – he was in a bad way, but understood what was happening and was content to be left alone at home for it to take its course. My biggest regret is that I didn’t stay – but I didn’t imagine that anything like this could happen, and I had a business and a sick daughter to attend to at home. Does that answer your question?

Sarah Lane
Sarah Lane
1 month ago

Thank goodness we have Kathleen Stocks’ philosophical clarity to shine a torch on the banality of so many of our politicians and leaders, who think such complex and multifaceted topics can be dealt with such simplicity. Thank you for continuing to write, Kathleen – you are a breath of fresh air in a world of sound bites and platitudes.

Catherine Conroy
Catherine Conroy
1 month ago

Sorry, my body, my choice.
I don’t want my relatives being arrested if I choose to end my life rather than suffer unnecessarily. I saw this with my grandmother and it was horrendous. The notion that ailing relatives may be forced into choosing euthanasia is as much an exaggeration as the notion that legalised abortion would enable women to have an abortion at any time through pregnancy based on a whim. I support legalisation of both.
The comparison with the GRA does not stand. And, on this point alone, I completely agree with the article.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 month ago

I’m sorry that your grandmother suffered so much. Was she not able to have any palliative care?
I have a friend who recently died after her breast cancer metastasised & spread throughout her body. When pain became unbearable for her, she was given wonderful care via palliative nurses right to the end. Of course death is not easy, but the end of her life was as ‘dignified’ & peaceful as anyone could have hoped for.

Surely continued improvements in such palliative care are preferable to having to ask friends or family to ‘assist’. That euphemistic term is very telling.

MJ Reid
MJ Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Palliative care is not like that for everyone. I know, my partner livedin absolute agony until his body gave out. I never want to see someone have to live like that again, even in a hospice. It was inhumane.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  MJ Reid

Palliative care is not like that for everyone.
Do you think that’s because of the condition or the care?

Francis Turner
Francis Turner
1 month ago

Living in national socialist nu britn IS assisted dying….

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
1 month ago

Kathleen Stock raises good points but omits to mention that there is no dignity in unassisted dying.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
1 month ago

My friend died recently. He suffered considerably. In his final weeks he was able to see many of his many friends and be close to his family. He departed with great dignity and courage.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago

no dignity in unassisted dying.
An opinion or wide experience?

Ralph Hanke
Ralph Hanke
1 month ago

OK, but what if I just want to die?

My spouse asked me to not make it messy: no gun shot to the head she would be forced to clean up out in the back yard or the bath tub. Perhaps we just “better call Saul” to find a “fixer” to solve that problem; but still, who wants the added cost?

Fair enough. I have no wish to put her through such a thing. But what if I just want out? And for no particularly noble reason? Just bored, thank you very much. I think it would be good to be able to take a pill and be done with it without leaving behind a (very heavy) corpse for her to deal with.

As I understand her current wishes, she would be happy to hold my hand as I fade away and would also keep my ashes until she too “leaves this mortal coil,” like the rest of us parrots.

I am pretty sure I want that pill. Must we accept an anarcho-capitalist society to get there? I think we might. And to be clear, I believe there are multiple other reasons to do so anyway.

Now, back to thinking hard; very hard, about what Dr. Stock wrote.

Peace be with us all. And happy Yom Kipur (or Yom HaKippurim, for those of us who prefer such language). What a perfect day to be provided with this dilemma.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 month ago
Reply to  Ralph Hanke

“OK, but what if I just want to die?”

You might very well be a price that has to be paid for upholding a presumption of continuation of life. This would, I’ll speculate, work a bit like presumption of innocence in criminal law, which regularly permits guilty parties to be deemed not guilty and to escape legal consequences for their crimes. It is nonetheless a presumption that the majority of people of intelligence understand is worth protecting despite it’s disadvantages, because the alternative to it is tyranny and capriciousness on the part of the State due to its monopoly on violence.

Likewise, if your desire to die with legal assistance at a time of your choosing can only be bought at the price of leading to the killing others who don’t want to die at all, then the answer is tough, this is a right that you simply cannot have.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

Thankyou Dr Stock for articulating the philosophical assumptions which lie behind the case for assisted dying, and challenging them so clearly. I shall be using your article in my A-level class. It also importantly makes the case against assisted dying without reference to God, which can be a stumbling block to some who make assumptions that it is only theists(God-botherers!) espousing the sanctity of life doctrine who disagree.

Phil Mac
Phil Mac
1 month ago

If we’re going to be honest about this then we’ve got to accept there can be no absolutes in this field. My 94 year old infirm Mum, slipping deeper and deeper into distressed senility desperately wanted to die. My regret is I didn’t help her. But 3 years earlier she was distressed in hospital and wanted it over but we took her out, settled her at our home and gave her at least a year or so of love & happiness. I certainly don’t regret that.
And secondly, abortion is no different. It’s all about taking a life because of a perception that not doing it causes harm.
At either end of the scale it’s about killing people. We should start by being honest about what it is, then grappling with the reasons and, somehow, finding a balance of least harm. God knows how but I do know that dealing in absolutes doesn’t get us anywhere.

John Webster
John Webster
1 month ago

I’m a big fan of the brilliant Kathleen Stock, a brave, warm and courageous woman, who has challenged the nonsense of gender ideology and put herself out personally to engage w people in rational debate. However, I think the argument here is fundamentally flawed. At the heart of this conversation is an existential question of the right of a person to terminate their existence in the particular circumstances of extreme suffering, and where required to get other people or means to assist them to do it in a way that doesn’t leave the terrible social and emotional wreckage of a suicide, when done without these mitigations. The arguments reek of similarly to those flawed made against legalised abortion years ago. Packed with whataboutery, others have made terrible mistakes in this area. As w gender, the Canadian and Dutch medical establishments have been sloppy in their ethics. Therefore we should not enter this arena. This is a very difficult area, but it is about human dignity. Even if we don’t have the same view of that as Kant, should we be living in great suffering, we should not be prevented by the state from seeking a dignified ending. Sadly, I fear the lovely, brilliant Kathleen is unintentionally shroud waving, whilst standing behind Kant.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
1 month ago
Reply to  John Webster

Legal abortion (your example) was intended to be safe, legal and rare; to be used in emergencies and extreme situations and to eliminate the back-street butchers. It is certainly safe and legal but rare? Hardly! 200k a year in UK alone. That’s not an argument against legal abortion per se or indeed euthanasia (and to be fair Ms Stock makes other points as well that are in my opinion more pertinent) but it does show that the slippery slope is real.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin Smith

Interesting too, that in the US you can order, by mail, an abortion pill, A long, long way from backstreet abortions. Who would have thought that possible once, but there it is.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

The only “new” aspect of that is the fact that it comes in “pill” form. People have used plants and herbs to induce abortions for a long time.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

The pill itself is a product of the pharmaceutical industry, mass produced for easy access. It’s the numbers that are important, not the act itself. The production of these pills, the easy access, contributes to the idea of abortion being not much different than a headache.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I wouldn’t say “not much different to a headache”, but I would say it represents modern medicine providing a solution to a problem (namely an unwanted pregnancy).

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

But Martin that’s largely the doubt expressed her by many, the dignity we now give, or don’t give, to life, and the consequences of that casual attitude.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Times have moved on. The Church no longer holds us all in its thrall. 1,000 years ago, I (as a man in my 60s) might have said “I’m too old to fight another battle, so I will die in this one”, and done something to make that happen.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin Smith

So, to sum up, abortion is ok, provided you don’t do too much of it. That doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

No, that is not the point. The point is that abortion has become a way of dealing with a great number of careless acts that can be resolved as if a life was not involved. It reduces the dignity of life, which so many here seem to be concerned with. Which does suggest some lives are of more value, more dignified, than others.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I think it is more a case of people disagreeing about what a “life” is. Some say life begins at conception. Others don’t.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

I think it is more a case of people disagreeing about what a “life” is. 
Interesting that we’re unable to do that anymore.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

The comments section of this article suggests that we are debating that very point (albeit in a roundabout way).

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

Why are we doing that? What’s confusing about it? Why is it so difficult to say life begins at conception? Why are we avoiding that?

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Well, the answer (as I am guessing you know) is that not everybody believes that “life begins at conception”. I for one don’t believe that.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

Abortion is never ‘OK’ but it is necessary to allow it in emergencies.

Judy Johnson
Judy Johnson
1 month ago

Surely the reasons for Canada to delay implementation of their legislation until 2027 must cast doubt on the confidence in the legeslation.

Hugh Thornton
Hugh Thornton
1 month ago

That is an extremely good analysis of the reality of “assisted dying” aka killing. Considering the ease with which some doctors sign off mildly disturbed people as unfit for work, it is inevitable that this will degenerate into killing on demand, and then morph into an obligation on those whose life is seen as a burden to others. Arguably, the medical profession used to think that all that mattered was extending life, whatever the human cost. The pendulum is now swinging the other way where the medical profession is becoming more content not to bother. We need the happy medium between prolonging life and suffering, just because we can, and killing on the other hand. I fear the momentum is towards deciding to kill.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
1 month ago

“‘If by “people should be allowed to die with dignity” politicians really mean “people should be put out of their misery” — and where that misery is a direct function of inadequate and demeaning care standards — they should say as much, explicitly, and not hide behind sentimental language designed to make them sound like moral heroes.'”
An excellent summation as usual Kathleen. Thank you. The idea that, in future should this law come to pass, and should I reach the stage of receving a terminal diagnosis, I will be able to chose freely between adequate palliative care and euthanasia/assisted suicide is a nonsense. Palliative care is already hard to come by. Just think how much money the NHS will save when it can ‘nudge’ people towards much cheaper and quicker alternatives, not just in palliative care itself but in expensive treatments and surgeries of all kinds.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
1 month ago

I support assisted suicide in the Swiss sense: you are given some poison and you drink it (or suck it through a straw). It is essentially a solitary act.
I oppose the medicalisation of killing in the Canadian (MAID) fashion with its false pretence of being a caring intervention and empty talk of human dignity.
The Swiss distinction between these two is clear and enshrined in their law which has not changed over the years. The Swiss legislation calls MAID “mercy-killing” and makes it illegal.
I think Dr Stock’s arguments bear against MAID but not assisted suicide. Why? I am not sure.
Ian Hacking wrote a famous book called “The Emergence of Probability” where adopting, and making intelligible, Foucault’s idea of a discourse he was able to show how the idea of probability did not exist in 1550 but had “emerged” by 1700. Stock, I think, perceives that ideas are again shifting and new ones emerging. But only after they have emerged will we have any clarity. Philosophy, as Hegel said, is retrospective.

Zenon Bańkowski
Zenon Bańkowski
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

Yes “the owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk” 

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago

Yeah, and “if you stare at the ibis long enough, the ibis stares back at you”.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

It seems that government enabled suicide is nothing about “dignity” and everything about nihilistic expediency.
But so is net zero, unlimited unregulated immigration. So at leat they are consistent.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Ah, so it is just one of the grab-bag of Leftist policies that you dislike?

Santiago Saefjord
Santiago Saefjord
1 month ago

In a post by King’s College London, they made a typo they still haven’t corrected:

“Similarly, people belonging to ethnic minorities are less likely than white people to support legalisation within the current Parliament (46% vs 666%)” – is that immigrants versus the devilish white people. Perhaps a little Freudian slip? who knows (source: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/assisted-dying-two-thirds-of-public-back-legalisation-within-this-parliament-study-finds)

Either way, I’m pretty sure the devil horns should remain at Metallica concert where they are fun not in NHS or on the reporting of assisted dying.

Anyhow, a sample size of 2000 for a poll on such a significant issue is laughable. Where’s the representation here if their are significant moral complexities?

Seems like this is a rush job by people bent on easing demands on a broken system that is the UK.

Kathleen, you are a heroic writer and perhaps one of the most inspiring in these times. Your voice brings me to tears.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

Excellent article. Such understanding of why so many people – especially disabled people- are terrified of the cultural change ahead. I so resent hearing MPs – who I assume have never spent any time working on a geriatric ward, or working toward achieving excellent palliative care – virtue signalling about suffering. They should try applying for PIP, or Access to Work – those processes can be enough to drive people over the edge on top of health related problems. Some MPs have contributed to a culture where sex (biological reality) is treated as a vaguely flexible social construction. Yet when it comes to the administration of death, the social and societal dimensions are completely ignored. If they can’t understand how people can be nudged and pushed into giving up, they are not fit to be making laws.
There is also the other argument that this is all about religion. A very convenient way of avoiding the real issues explored in this article, is to pretend as the Humanist Society does, that atheists must be in favor of Assisted Dying. Disabled people have an expertise on the management of suffering, on endurance, on saying ‘f**k it, I’m going to keep living’, on how to get through situations where control is in the hands of other people.. But the Humanist Society want to talk about religion.
Rant over.
We need more philosophers.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

It seems to me that we need every point of view: religious, spiritual, philosophical, sociological, government, medical and many more. There simply is not one point of view on this subject.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I think there is one point of view on the subject: that of each individual person who choses VAD. I am very much in favour of it, but I would never presume to make a decision on it on behalf of anyone else.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

I’m talking about points of view in the legislation; it’s content, it’s structure, the discussion.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

All I can say on that issue is that if my life reaches the point of no longer being meaningful to me, I am “out of here” (whether using VAD, or some other means). While I couldn’t give two hoots about what anyone else thinks about that, I have never sought to suggest that others should have the same view as me. If people want to hang around “until their god takes them”, that is their business.

Jeffrey Mushens
Jeffrey Mushens
1 month ago

The slippery slope is real. Just look at Canada and Belgium and The Netherlands.
The pressure on beds is bound to increase pressure on the elderly. Before, assisted death was unlawful, so when doctors did it, it had to really be last resort. Once it’s legal, who would want to have nurses and doctors that are willing to kill you, as part of their day job? “Had a nice day, dear? Yes, OK, killed 7 elderly and counselled another dozen on the benefits.”
Will doctors and nurses be able to opt out? I do hope so, as otherwise you’ll know all the staff, on all wards, have signed up to be a killer.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago

I can’t speak for the countries you mention, but it is working well here in Australia.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

That does appear to be the case. I wonder what the difference is between Australia and Canada?

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

Not sure. The Canadian system seems to be the one that causes a lot of ire. I can’t say I have heard of any real issues flowing from the Australian system (or systems – the legislation here is State based).

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I live in Canada and it is working fine, with a full set of safeguards. The scare stories levelled against it are bogus.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

So the stories we hear are simply not true or maybe distorted?

g Hamway
g Hamway
1 month ago

Brilliant article. The current plan is for those wishing to die to be able to administer their own drugs. How long before the legal challenge from someone physically unable to do so that this discriminates against them?
Totally agree that ‘unbearable suffering’ and ‘loss of dignity’ are subjective, even cosy terms that can be stretched until assisted dying is the right – and, worryingly – the duty of a vast number of vulnerable people, not just the very few envisaged. My mother, who died aged 97, suffered increased physical impairments for the last ten years of her life and frequently grumbled at ‘doctors keeping her alive’. Yet she fought for every possible medical attention. If assisted dying had been a possibility, that would have added a huge burden of guilt to her other infirmities. How cruel is that?
With Kathleen Stock I am heartily sick of this easy occupying of the moral high ground and condemning anyone who proffers a different point of view as cruel and inhumane. Good palliative care is possible so that people don’t die in terrible pain. We should be fighting for access to this to be universal, not for a measure that will heap huge moral pressure on the elderly and all who fear they are ‘a nuisance’.

Kevin Cooney
Kevin Cooney
1 month ago

A brilliantly constructed argument. And a pleasure to read. Deeply thought-provoking, something we seem to increasingly shy away from.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

So to be clear, we promote “gender-affirming care” no matter how egregious it is morally, to prevent the scourge of suicide by the gender confused…….and in tandem promote “assisted dying”, to honor the choice of suicide by the emotionally compromised.

What a world.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

Unless the author has ever had to care for someone through the horrors of ALS / Motor Neurone Disease, as I have, her position on this issue is utterly ignorant.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I’ve noticed this sort of comment on Unherd a lot. They accuse someone of something then walk away without explaining; the author is ignorant of what?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

I watched my partner lose control of every muscle except her eyes. Have to be fed through a tube. Suffer dreadful pain. Have to be moved in her bed several times a night as the discomfort was so extreme. Shit herself constantly and have no control or ability to clean herself. Plead constantly to be allowed to die and end her torment.

People who make moral arguments about what is wrong about assisted dying are beneath contempt. They are the same types who constantly talk about personal freedom and ‘freedom from government” yet they don’t even trust severely ill people the right to make their own decision about ending their suffering. That is what is ignorant.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Maybe you’re just angry, but you seem to be generalising about people. The position people have on AD is not necessarily a moral one, which is clear in these comments. Do you really believe they’re ignorant of suffering, which is what you seem to be suggesting? I’m sure there are those that are ignorant, but because people question and call for more discussion about the idea of AD doesn’t mean they’re ignorant of suffering. Calling them “beneath contempt” seems a little harsh.

Adam Grant
Adam Grant
1 month ago

As I’ve posted before, as a Canadian taxpayer, I’m owed a dignified death at a time of my own choosing, without busybodies like the author getting in my way. I don’t want to have to plead with some bureaucrat; once I pass a certain age, the choice to go should be mine by right. Statistically, I’ve got another twenty or thirty years before it should become necessary, but I absolutely want to make a living will allowing me to escape years as a profit centre for the long term care / hospice industry. There is no dignity in life at the mercy of a pack of stupid cow nurses!

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
1 month ago
Reply to  Adam Grant

The choice to go is already yours. It just requires you being willing to do it rather than outsourcing the task to the state.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

What if we don’t have the good fortune to own a gun or a cabinet full of lethal drugs? Are you suggesting we line up on a station platform, with a view to jumping in front of the next train?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 month ago
Reply to  Adam Grant

‘As I’ve posted before, as a Canadian taxpayer, I’m owed a dignified death at a time of my own choosing,”

That would imply that paying Canadian taxes could make you immortal.

Nathan Sapio
Nathan Sapio
1 month ago

One of the best pieces I’ve read on the matter.

Agnes Aurelius
Agnes Aurelius
1 month ago

Well articulated as usual Kathleen. I’ve had relatives where their life was prolonged despite their distress and wanting to die, and relatives where home and palliative care worked very well. Most people don’t plan for old age and so have to live with losing their autonomy over what will happen either through accident/desease/old age. The only way I see to have any say over my future disability is to have a living will and honest discussions with spouse and children. As you mention, people are obsessed with trying to prolong their lives through healthy lifestyle & trying to stay looking young through surgery etc. These obsessions are driven by the internet which is also driving people to madness or “mental health issues”. And being utterly self-obsessed. Are people really just lemmings on two legs? If people have become unable to detach from the internet and all it’s pernicious aspects I can’t feel sorry for them, there’s too many. Meanwhile people are being slaughtered in Africa, Middle East, Eastern Europe, etc and average westerners don’t care and know there’s nothing they can do about it unless you’ve access to the inner circle of interested parties. So life boils down to individual responsibility – a value that has been underminded over the past 30 years.

Pat Thynne
Pat Thynne
1 month ago

What seems never to be acknowledged whenever euthanasia is discussed is what happens currently. In many cases where someone is acknowledged to be dying painfully eg from cancer, it is not unusual for a doctor to prescribe “pain medication” in such quantities that it suppresses their breathing and puts them in a semi-conscious state for the remaining hours until their breathing stops completely. It happens, yet is never openly acknowledged. It is left to the integrity of the individual doctor and presumably the fact that it can be justified as pain medication. And in a case I know of, was done with the full, conscious agreement of the person concerned. It actually was kindness and compassion. But I share Kathleen’s concerns about a piece of legislation – everything will be in the drafting.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Pat Thynne

I agree that the “we’ll just give you that extra little bit of morphine” policy does exist, but it does carry potential legal issues for the administering doctor.

J D
J D
1 month ago

Excellent essay – thank you Dr Stock.

Michael Clarke
Michael Clarke
1 month ago

Excellent piece. It’s not so much a slippery slope as a slippery cliff, which is impossible to control. Those promoting euthanasia should be honest about the fact that it is being promoted, for the most part, in the interests of those doing the promoting rather than those who will die. Which means that they, in their turn, will be caught by it in the future. There is clearly a financial dimension to euthanasia as well. For developed economies worrying about their economic futures, financial pressures (including the likely difficulty in recruiting care staff) is an unspoken but strong reason for promoting euthanasia.

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 month ago

Kathleen Stock’s views on assisted dying shows conclusively that she has all the attributes of a cold, cruel, deeply despicable human being. Her ‘arguments’ are so pathetic they don’t merit addressing.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  P Branagan

so pathetic they don’t merit addressing.
But you did. and you lowered yourself to name calling in your effort to address her views.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
1 month ago

An excellent article. There are always supposed to be safeguards. Where assisted suicide has been legalised, decriminalised, or effectively permitted, then, with little or no further legislation, it has been extended to conditions such as chronic pain, which I have; limited mobility, which I have; clinical depression, which I have; and material poverty, to which I am not a stranger, as we disabled people disproportionately are not.

The legalisation of assisted suicide would give to a High Court judge in the Family Division such power over life and death as no judge in this country had enjoyed since the abolition of capital punishment. My paternal grandfather was born before such working-class men could vote. My maternal ancestors included African slaves, Indian indentured labourers, and Chinese coolies. We who come off the lower orders and the lesser breeds, and especially those of us who are disabled, know perfectly well who would be euthanised, and how, and why.

Joanne Matheson
Joanne Matheson
29 days ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Sorry David Lindsay but that is utter rubbish! No-one is suggesting that people would be put to death against their will – you’re imagining a preposterous future scenario which is a million miles from what we are arguing for. We want people who have decided for themselves that they want to go due to their circumstances to be able to do so, and for those that have made that wish clear ahead of time, and asked loved ones to decide when the time is right because the person they loved has clearly departed, to do so for them. No-one would have the authority to take that decision over your head – what you describe is fear-mongering.

M. Jamieson
M. Jamieson
1 month ago

Wow. THis is the best thing I’ve ever seen written on this topic, and maybe the best thing I’ve seen from Kathleeen Stock.
The hubris of the assisted death lobby is like something out of a Greek tragedy.

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 month ago

A lot of words to express scaredy cat reservations from a younger person, not facing a pointlessly lingering death herself.

Who benefits from keeping alive older people with no quality of life? Not loved ones, not society. No-one. Humans weren’t designed to live as long as we are now doing.

This is 2024. It shouldn’t beyond society to devise a few safeguards. For example, exclude anyone under retirement age who is not terminally ill or in incurable chronic pain.

It’s not if, but when. Boomers are reaching the time when they know what the inside of a nursing home looks like, and what the challenges are in providing decent palliative care.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 month ago

Ms. Stock worries about a “new tier of vulnerable people who decide to jump before nature pushes them”. But that framing doesn’t apply to my situation. I’m already well past my allotted years on Earth. As someone with an all too intimate interest in this topic I couldn’t care less what the political hacks have to say. My “dignity” has nothing to do with it; I’m well past that point. What the Canadians choose to do is none of my business. My only interest is in NOT spending years being tortured by an indifferent medical establishment. Possibly even drugged to keep me tractable for the sake of the staff.
If there was a possibility of just dying, the old fashioned way, I would jump at it. But that’s highly unlikely to happen. Emergency rooms routinely ignore “Do Not Resuscitate” orders. Everyone involved has financial motivations to keep me alive far longer than my God-granted life span. My few remaining family members are all but guaranteed to ignore my wishes; they’ve done it before.
Twice in my life I’ve put down my beloved dog. Each was very old, sickly and incapacitated. I just wish I had such a peaceful end ahead of me.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago

In NSW ambulance officers will attempt to resuscitate you for twenty minutes unless your next of kin orders otherwise. If your next of kin is not around, then it will be done to you for twenty minutes. At that point they are allowed to acknowledge that you are dead.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Janet G

There is a problem from my perspective: I have no next of kin.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 month ago
Reply to  Janet G

In twenty minutes I would most likely be revived. And wind up locked away in a nursing home with a tube down my throat. That is what I’m trying to avoid.

Steve Crowther
Steve Crowther
1 month ago

Kathleen Stock is the most sublime writer-thinker currently working. The twerps who hounded her out of Sussex U did not deserve her.

Andrew Bamji
Andrew Bamji
1 month ago

Scenario: a 94 year old ex GP, in constant pain from a combination of osteoporosis, osteoarthritis of the hip (both previously fractured) with a fractured shoulder occasioned by a fall itself precipitated by a urinary tract infection, doubly incontinent, very deaf, partially sighted from macular degeneration and a field defect from a stroke, in hospital and wishing to die (advance directive signed). Given sufficient morphine to dull the pain, but in immense distress. The family suffering to watch the suffering.
A lady of great dignity and bravery (see Rachel Lance’s book “Chamber Divers” and look for Elizabeth Jermyn) and a wonderful mother.
If this was your mother would you wish her, and your agony to be prolonged as she slowly starved, having refused all active treatment and with an inevitable outcome?
She took 11 days to die, and finally went in the middle of the night, when no-one was with her.
This was my mother, and my distress was topped by not being there in her last moments, having spent at least 9 hours a day with her in hospital over those 11 days. How I wish she could have had a lethal dose of something to spare all our agony while we were with her. It is a regret that we could not that will live with me forever.
Is that so wrong?

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Bamji

I am told by people who work in the area that it is not uncommon for people to pass “in the middle of the night when nobody is around”, rather that “when everyone is there”. I have even heard tell of instances when the soon-to-be-deceased has told the relatives it is ok for them to “pop out to get something to eat” on the basis that “I will still be here when you get back”, only to pass as soon as the relatives have left the room.

Ros Wilkinson
Ros Wilkinson
1 month ago

What about debates about palliative care, funding hospices to provide end of life care and for politicians to discuss and debate the long awaited decision re: social care for our aging population. This seems to be a more appropriate way of providing for end of life care. As Dr Stock points out it is very difficult to define the conditions under which assisted dying can be administered.
Being terminally ill is not an easy path to tread – 4 members of my generation in my family and 3 members of my mother’s generation and my grandfather and his sister have died of cancer. It has been heart rending to live through this but also part of life. Death is part of life and with palliative care – either at home or in a hospice the dying can be cared for sympathetically and in a meaningful way. It is sad to see my loved ones suffering but along the way we have had meaningful conversations and times together.
I urge politicians to make provision for good end of life, palliative care. That would be true compassion and care for those who are suffering.

Samantha Stevens
Samantha Stevens
1 month ago

Lordy, I love Kathleen Stock. Just brilliant. And as a woman, and mother of a beautiful disabled daughter whose life is of sacred value imbued by her creator, I am so glad Dr. Stock is on our side on this and so many other critical issues.

Mark Kennedy
Mark Kennedy
1 month ago

“Deep down, everybody knows that the introduction of assisted dying legislation will create a new tier of vulnerable people who decide to jump before nature pushes them, and who would not have done so otherwise.”
 
(?) Everybody knows not just ‘deep down’ but on the surface that the introduction of new legislation enlarges or decreases the options open to decision-making. This is the purpose of almost all legislation, and most obviously so in cases (the vast majority) where legislation imposes a new prohibition or removes a previous one. This itself is neither good nor bad: if you want to argue against the wisdom of ‘assisted dying,’ by all means address this issue; but it isn’t addressed simply by pointing out that making Option AD available broadens humanity’s decision-making franchise, even if, in your opinion, some of the humans exercising their new legislative right are more ‘vulnerable’ (?) than you and your readers (lucky us).

P.S. Having now read the rest of the argument I find it more evasive than enlightening. Enlarging the ‘vulnerability’ category to include those who aren’t particularly good at self-narrative construction seems to be the main thrust–a move made because such people might (it’s presumed) thereby be prone to ‘subjectively’ concluding life has become unbearable to them when, according to some more competent, ‘objective’ narrative-spinner, this conclusion would be a mistake. Whatever one makes of this reasoning (the problem I have with it is its apparent denial of the surely tautological truth that each individual is the final authority on how he/she is feeling), it doesn’t address the question of why self-narrators skilled enough not qualify as vulnerable in this sense should be denied the right to decide how to exit life, just because some others may lack the same combination of competencies. No matter how elastic and all-encompassing we make the ‘vulnerability’ criteria there will inevitably be cases that escape them, where assisted death is obviously the humane and sensible course of action.

How can we humanely enact or keep legislation that closes off this option, condemning these people to live with purposeless suffering? The argument doesn’t give us a persuasive reason for doing so, and no wonder. I can misuse every freedom we both enjoy, but this possibility furnishes neither me nor any legislator supposedly acting on my behalf with a justification for abridging your right to exercise your freedoms. Since death is in any event not an otherwise avoidable calamity that befalls the vulnerable but an inevitability for us all, shouldn’t each individual be left free to manage his/her own decline as he/she thinks best? This seems reasonable, and a society that agrees can at least claim to be erring on the side of freedom of choice. Even for the presumed vulnerable I think there’s more “dignity” in having the autonomy to choose what they want than in being overruled by a philosopher who believes they should want something else.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago

There is certainly a monetary aspect to all of this. In NSW, Australia, the government reduced the funding for hospice care, a move that coincided with its passing of a law to allow medically assisted dying. Hmmm

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Janet G

Maybe there is less call for hospice care now that people can access assisted dying.

Brett H
Brett H
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

That’s would be interesting to know. Just how many people in Australia have taken up the option of AD and has it been noticed in palliative care?

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Brett H

It would, although such things are administered by the States in Australia, and they didn’t all implement VAD at the same time, so the details might be difficult to gather.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

So the funding change was predictive?

Patricia Evans
Patricia Evans
1 month ago

I live in British Columbia, Canada. Contrary to one of the comments , there are no private euthanasia clinics here. They would be illegal under both federal and provincial health legislation.
This article is, to use a fashionable phrase, a word salad and entirely ignores actuality. The reason most people elect MAID (Medical Assistance in Dying) is blindingly simple. They are in pain and no longer wish to continue to be so. But it’s not just the pain. It is the loss of control over life that is unbearable. If you have ever had to care for someone with a terminal illness, and looked in their eyes, you will have seen complete incomprehension as to why this terrible thing is happening to them and why they are condemned to hideous suffering. Once you are at the end, pretty words about “dignity” don’t matter. You want the end to come even if you have to starve yourself to death (as one of my acquaintances had to do prior to MAID). All the moral hand wringing that this articles represents is a refusal to accept this simple fact.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 month ago

Kathleen is absolutely spot on. Legalizing `euthanasia puts one on a very scary path that will be a complete disaster.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

It seems to be working perfectly well here in Australia.

Dionne Finch
Dionne Finch
1 month ago

Let me die in my footsteps

Citizen Diversity
Citizen Diversity
1 month ago

Ms Stock could have expanded her point about the meaning of ‘assisted’.
It has been pointed out by others that if the person applying for assisted dying has to complete a form with pre-determined criteria, this is institutional control, not freedom of choice.
And assisted by whom? Ultimately by the state.
The state can already decide who is a person and who isn’t. The unborn can be declared to be a person with a certificate if they have died as a result of their mother having a miscarriage. Others of the unborn are not declared to be a person if their existence is ended by abortion.
Assisted dying is another luxury belief of a civilisation which has no lack of numbers of people to perpetuate it. For most of the past people would have lived as tiny groups whose existence was always threatened by early mortality.
Compassion as it is expressed by the proponents of assisted dying will always look for more people to be its recipients. The compassion of the ‘compassionate’ will never be sated. And assisted dying is Green. A dead person has a lower carbon footprint than a living one.
But the old folks cannot complain if fifty years previously when they were young they agreed that there should be assisted dying. They cannot complain at being offered the opportunity to save the NHS by relieving it of their ‘burden’.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 month ago

A corker of an article from Prof Stock today.

“If by “people should be allowed to die with dignity” politicians really mean “people should be put out of their misery” — and where that misery is a direct function of inadequate and demeaning care standards — they should say as much, explicitly, and not hide behind sentimental language designed to make them sound like moral heroes.”

Can’t really add anything to this really. Says it all.

More generally though, I think the insight elsewhere in the article is important, about how in recent years, the things we are apparently expected to internalise as social norms have changed at an accelerating rate as a result of forces that few people understand and in ways to which most people are instinctively resistant even while being pilloried for not going with the flow.

The rapid establishment of transgender ideology is the example given in the article, and the point is that whether one agrees or not with the claims made about transgenderism, it is something that became institutionally accepted without the support or consent of society at large. It is not at all hard to perceive that a similar process might occur following the legalisation of assisted dying that effectively confiscates personal autonomy over their own demise from people who presently wholly own it by institutional default. Jonathan Sumption’s insight about conventions vs laws during the pandemic come to mind here: lockdown broke no laws on the part of government because what stopped government doing that in the UK prior to the pandemic were conventions, not laws.

In this case, a simple change to what is technically legal might turn out to be the start of a deterioration of the conventions relating to life and the personal dignity currently seen as inalienable to it, which would be tragic and inhumane. I cannot, of course, predict what shape such a horrifying change to our society might take, just as people twenty years ago could never have imagined that public figures could now lose lucrative careers and reputations for refusing to accept that men can become women by an act of mere assertion.

The one thing not mentioned in the article is the pandemic. The reason I think it’s relevant is that it ought to have taught us that for all our supposed powers of collective reason and the shared privilege of the scientific method backed-up by technological progress, we are not immune to moral panics that can override even the most basic human rights and individual dignities. The world, and the west in particular, went collectively mad after March 2020 for at least two years, the measures taken to protect us from what turned out to be a mild respiratory virus are presently still killing people now and the eventual death toll will exceed even the worst fears about the virus itself at the time, yet publicly and institutionally there remains an omerta that prevents official recognition of this. What we have instead is the massed might of governments publicly whitewashing their actions, relying on Solhenitzyn’s aphorism about them lying, we know they’re lying, they know we know they’re lying.

It is the pandemic, more than anything else, that has made me change my mind on assisted dying. My appreciation of the horrors suffered by many people living tortuously-difficult lives hasn’t changed: there are very clearly many people whose continued lives amount to unbearable suffering and who cannot for whatever reason end their pain themselves. What has changed for me is a collapse of trust in our institutional landscape that means I now recognise that this problem cannot be solved by simply changing the law. There is a great deal more to it than just law.

At some point following the enaction of this law, it will emerge that a person has been killed, against their will, in an assisted-dying context. My prediction, when it happens, is that nobody will be to blame because everyone did their job properly, all required processes were followed, and no laws were broken. This will, in a certain sense, represent almost the exact opposite of a death-row murderer getting freed on a technicality: instead, executed, on a technicality.

That’s a future to look forward to, isn’t it?

Judy Matthews
Judy Matthews
1 month ago

Thank you for speaking up so lucidly.

Anthony Crooks
Anthony Crooks
1 month ago

Legalised killing was completely abolished in 1998. I see no reason for any form of legalised killing to be reintroduced. Are we not civilised enough to realise this?

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Anthony Crooks

I think that people may have different views on what constitutes “civilised”. I for my part think forcing terminally ill people to linger on and suffer is not “civilised”.

Andrew Daws
Andrew Daws
1 month ago

Nobody seems to be mentioning the conflict between the stated intention of politicians to be compassionate, and their need to balance the budgets. Keeping the suffering alive is expensive. And speaking personally, my main enthusiasm is graduating was finally to earn my first pay packet, and to contribute. Now I’m facing a long increasingly painful decline, made worse by watching my legacy to my kids being whittled away.
I doubt that I would have the courage to end my life, but it ought to be an option.

John Tyler
John Tyler
1 month ago

Exceedingly well reasoned and readable.

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
1 month ago

I couldn’t disagree more with Stock and her arguments are pretty dubious. Let’s see she doesn’t like the other sides argument and then she spouts a lot of fearmongering what ifs and throws transgender medicine in for good measure. Her visions of relatives and doctors dragging patients into suicide chambers is unlikely to materialize. Ms. Stock doesn’t get to tell other people what is dignified.
The question is simple should a terminally ill patient have the dignity to make the decision to end their suffering or prolong it. Every individual, going through something neither I nor Ms. Stock has ever experienced, should have the right to make their own choice.
You can either legalize euthanasia and deal with whatever problems arise or keep it illegal because you fear things that may happen.

M To the Tea
M To the Tea
1 month ago

I think this article is actually very important because the problem is that many communities have been marginalized throughout history, some even enslaved at one point. A lot of people have suffered, and to suggest that we legalize euthanasia instead of providing proper care for those who are physically or mentally suffering is quite alarming, to say the least. Privileged groups often don’t have the same resilience as marginalized ones, so this could potentially impact privileged groups more. The privileged may not be able to handle certain traumas in the way marginalized groups can, and this could lead to unintended consequences.
For example, if we don’t have enough immigrants to fill certain roles, and privileged groups are forced into those jobs, they might suffer and eventually choose to opt out of the workforce, possibly through euthanasia. It’s important to examine why marginalized groups haven’t pushed for this option. It’s similar to transgender surgery—only those with the means can access it. In this case, we’re entering the territory of euthanasia, and it’s worth considering the societal implications carefully.

Richard Ross
Richard Ross
1 month ago

Wonderfully perceptive and superbly stated.

Felice Camino
Felice Camino
1 month ago

I too worry about ‘the slippery slope’ and all the things Dr Stock talks about. As she says, we saw it with gender, and look how that’s turned out.
But I keep coming back to the case of an elderly lady who lived in the same block of flats as my son. Last week she drowned herself in the river. She had cancer of the oesophagus. It must have taken courage, determination and desperation to do it. How much better not to have died alone. I suspect that she decided to end things whilst she could – so much earlier than if there had been the option of assisted dying later.
Yes, you can take your own life, but if you have something progressive like Parkinsons (like my oldest sister) or MS (like my younger sister), to name but 2 conditions, there comes a time when you are incapable of doing so. So it’s the difficult decision to go early whilst you can, rather than die a slow painful death, drowning in your own fluids.

Derek Bryce
Derek Bryce
1 month ago

My mother lives in Canada. During the early onset of Covid hysteria, her partner developed rapidly escalating cognitive difficulties. Of course his GP refused to see him in person, offering phone consultations only, misdiagnosing him with Parkinson’s. Eventually, two months later, things got so bad they sent an ambulance and the next day diagnosed him with a virulent glioblastoma and gave him a couple of months, tops. He’d made his wishes clear in writing that, were he diagnosed with a terminal illness where the only outcome was suffering ’til the end, he’d want to use Canada’s Medical Assistance in Dying (MAID) law. I respected that decision at the at the time. However, the contrast between the rapidity with which British Columbia’s publicly funded health authority (even more dysfunctional than the NHS) sent a doctor and nurse round to his and mum’s home to kill him and the months he lingered, undiagnosed, with no palliative care was remarkable. As is well known, ‘assisted dying’ has had serious, sinister mission creep in Canada into areas that I would have thought unthinkable just four years ago. I’ve thought again about assisted dying. UK beware and heed Canada, a country with which we share a history and whose government and public institutions are modelled largely on our own.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Derek Bryce

So, you would have preferred it if MAID was administered in a similarly inefficient way to the rest of the (admittedly COVID hampered) health system?

Derek Bryce
Derek Bryce
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin M

That’s a misrepresentation of my position, but you knew that already.

Josie Bowen
Josie Bowen
1 month ago

This is at a time when we have never had so many drugs to help us through end of life suffering.

Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden
1 month ago

The NHS practises a method of delivering final relief to terminal patients by upping and upping their dose of painkillers.
To my mind this is sufficient, while in these tragic cases of long-term physical decline it’s better to have the service specifically available in a designated overseas location, which happens (appropriately) to be neutral Switzerland.

Martin M
Martin M
1 month ago
Reply to  Tyler Durden

Why? So squeamish types like you can “pretend it isn’t happening”?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

Perhaps that nice Lucy Letby will be around to help mother decide and – kindly – ease her “passing”?

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
1 month ago

Government shouldn’t be in the business of killing people. Too much conflict of interest.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

Well quite!

jane baker
jane baker
1 month ago

This is so evil a plan that it shows not how hard it was for the Nazis in .1930s Germany to place all their plans in action but how easy it was. Because most people feel an innate repulsion from the disturbing and grotesque. And that is – many old people,sick people in obvious pain,mental people,if you have ever walked through a hospital grounds of these people you will get this (I don’t mean depression or anxiety),it’s like being in a horror movie,poor people,yes,people in dirty,smelly ,ragged clothing create feelings of disgust in us,you may pretend not but only because you know it’s societally unacceptable to admit it right now,but that’s changing. Now that Sir Kerching and his allies HAVE power he is ENABLED to say OUT LOUD what a lot of folk have always said but to coruscating denigration..We can’t afford the society that by Darwinian evolution laws we have ended up with. The Fittest have survived and are thriving all too well. Except the”Fittest” does not imply the healthiest, strongest,wisest,most beautiful, especially the last,if you create a society that rewards stupidity and fecklesness you end up with what we have got. Sir Ker has sent a deputation to USA to study the prison system in Texas. They have the death penalty in Texas. Just saying. And being an involuntary participant in a clinical trial by being unemployed sounds ,not good,to me. Seems like that future is going to be prosperous for funeral directors.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

My friend Gerry would disagree completely with this article if he was still alive. He starved himself to death after an earlier failed attempt at suicide, rather than impose on his children potentially the same 12 years in a dementia ward that his mother experienced.

John Cole
John Cole
1 month ago

This week it was  div > p > a”>reported that 38 Labour MPs, including 13 in government roles, are already backing demands for the scope of the forthcoming bill to be extended; to cover not just the terminally ill, but the more vaguely construed “incurably suffering.
Seems some can’t wait to slide down the “slippery slope”

Marcus Glass
Marcus Glass
27 days ago

“might we at least collectively fight off the idea that a diseased or suffering life has only whatever subjective worth the individual patient places upon it”. Articles like this frustrate me since it misses the point. I decide when my life is no longer worth living. for others out there, it’s none of your business.
I don’t care if the government helps or not, like many others, I will just take my own life when I want to. I fear far more that I might be disabled in some way were I can’t and my family can’t help me legally. That is my nightmare. I have seen many others trapped in that hell.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
27 days ago

Euthanasia is simply suicide at the hands of another. In the United States it is still considered homicide and illegal.

Douglas Redmayne
Douglas Redmayne
9 days ago

When you are dying in pain ad agony from an incurable disease Stock then perhaps you will remember and regret that you advocated against choice. It’s none of your business.

B B
B B
3 days ago

Why is there suffering? When my mother was dying from cancer, she asked me why she had to suffer? The only answer I could think of was to teach people compassion. When we try to dispense with illness, how do we learn humility and the dignity of humanity?