Alex O'Connor
June 19, 2024 7 mins
In the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, Jesus condemns those who “(either) love the tree and hate its fruit (or) love the fruit and hate the tree”. A regular critique of the nominally religious is that they claim to believe in, say, Christianity, but fail to act in accordance with its demanding message of love and compassion. They love the tree, but can’t quite swallow the fruit. More recently, however, a strange reverse phenomenon is emerging: a class of thinkers who, unable to rationally assent to the actual truth of Christianity, and yet disillusioned with the politics of “new atheism”, and fearful of the various religious and pseudo-religious ideas that have filled the vacuum it created, find themselves in the tough spot of being hungry for the fruit but unable to believe in the existence of the tree.
These so-called “cultural Christians” are appearing in droves: Douglas Murray, Tom Holland (not that one), Konstantin Kisin, Jordan Peterson (depending on what you mean by “Christian” and “cultural” and “and”); even Richard Dawkins — the archetypal modern atheist who has done more to confront organised religion than perhaps any other identifiable person in a generation — happily adopts this paradoxical moniker for himself.
Paradoxical because, of course, Christianity is more than just an affinity for evensong, disappointment with secular architecture, and suspicion of Islam. St Paul wrote in no uncertain terms to the Corinthians that “if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith”, and the vague, à la carte approach to the religion displayed by the “cultural Christian” which doesn’t seem to care about, much less affirm, the historicity of the extraordinary events of Easter Sunday is the kind of attitude that would see you condemned as heretical by the founders of the orthodox church.
Yet Christianity is experiencing a popular makeover, from an affirmative doctrine of truth-claims to a sort of protective garment to be worn as a practical measure against the equal and opposite destabilising forces of radical political religiosity and cynical nihilism which continue to claw away at the souls of those without a firm spiritual conviction.
In the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, Jesus condemns those who “(either) love the tree and hate its fruit (or) love the fruit and hate the tree”. A regular critique of the nominally religious is that they claim to believe in, say, Christianity, but fail to act in accordance with its demanding message of love and compassion. They love the tree, but can’t quite swallow the fruit. More recently, however, a strange reverse phenomenon is emerging: a class of thinkers who, unable to rationally assent to the actual truth of Christianity, and yet disillusioned with the politics of “new atheism”, and fearful of the various religious and pseudo-religious ideas that have filled the vacuum it created, find themselves in the tough spot of being hungry for the fruit but unable to believe in the existence of the tree.
These so-called “cultural Christians” are appearing in droves: Douglas Murray, Tom Holland (not that one), Konstantin Kisin, Jordan Peterson (depending on what you mean by “Christian” and “cultural” and “and”); even Richard Dawkins — the archetypal modern atheist who has done more to confront organised religion than perhaps any other identifiable person in a generation — happily adopts this paradoxical moniker for himself.
Paradoxical because, of course, Christianity is more than just an affinity for evensong, disappointment with secular architecture, and suspicion of Islam. St Paul wrote in no uncertain terms to the Corinthians that “if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith”, and the vague, à la carte approach to the religion displayed by the “cultural Christian” which doesn’t seem to care about, much less affirm, the historicity of the extraordinary events of Easter Sunday is the kind of attitude that would see you condemned as heretical by the founders of the orthodox church.
Yet Christianity is experiencing a popular makeover, from an affirmative doctrine of truth-claims to a sort of protective garment to be worn as a practical measure against the equal and opposite destabilising forces of radical political religiosity and cynical nihilism which continue to claw away at the souls of those without a firm spiritual conviction.
This metamorphosis of the Christian religion in is many ways indebted to Tom Holland — not the actor, though perhaps an actor, in that he seems content to live as if Christianity were true — whose “Dominion” thesis has convinced a not insignificant number of intellectuals that the bulk of our celebrated Western ethics is ultimately the product of Christianity, an ideology which has so successfully embedded itself in our culture that we do not even notice it anymore.
This leads our cultural Christians, often those with a special interest in safeguarding Western civilisation, to cozy up to an ideology that they can’t quite adopt without qualification due to their rather inconvenient conviction that it isn’t true.
Enter Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Re-enter, I should say, as this brave apostate from Islam won successful prominence as an atheist writer and speaker for many years since the early 2000s, before recently announcing that she had embraced Christianity. Indeed, she had originally been scheduled to participate in that famed discussion in Washington D.C. in 2007 which gave birth to the “four horsemen” of new atheism — Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris. So news of the “almost fifth’s” conversion was met with widespread surprise, joy, and speculation.
Perhaps the most widely read response came from Dawkins, in an open letter whose first sentence contained a rather less than charitable: “Seriously, Ayaan? You, a Christian? You are no more Christian than I am.”
Why? Because Hirsi Ali’s article, while passionate and detailed, suffered from the exclusion of anything resembling an argument for the existence of God, or for the theological supremacy of the Christian religion over others (or even over atheism). Instead, it is a political treatise: it begins with her experiences as a Muslim, touching on 9/11, the Muslim Brotherhood, and antisemitism, before asking: “So, what changed? Why do I call myself a Christian now?”
She answers: “Part of the answer is global. Western civilisation is under threat from three different but related forces,” which she identifies as Russian/Chinese authoritarianism, Islamism, and wokeism. All of which are distinctly political considerations and so hardly serve as a theological defence of Christianity. Then, referring to Tom Holland, she tells us that the “story of the West” is a civilisation built on the “Judeo-Christian tradition”. That is to say, She is ticking all the boxes of a merely cultural Christian.
Yet she later writes, as if anticipating this objection, “I would not be truthful if I attributed my embrace of Christianity solely to the realisation that atheism is too weak and divisive a doctrine to fortify us against our menacing foes.” It’s a promising interjection, which seems to ready us for an apolitical testimony that might justify her exclusion of the “cultural” in labelling her new Christian identity.
Here, Hirsi Ali begins to describe her personal struggles as an atheist. “I have… found life without any spiritual solace unendurable,” she writes, claiming that the “God hole” left behind after her deconversion was not filled with reason and intelligent humanism, as atheists like Betrand Russell had predicted, but instead left painfully vacant.
“In this nihilistic vacuum, the challenge before us becomes civilisational,” she continues. “We can’t withstand China, Russia and Iran if we can’t explain to our populations why it matters that we do.” In explaining, then, her reasons for becoming Christian apart from her desire to defeat her political foes, she tells us that she was struggling with a nihilistic vacuum that was… insufficient for defeating her political foes. Once again, the motivation seems political.
Thus Richard Dawkins and his assessment, “you are no more a Christian than I am”. The funny thing is, Ayaan Hirsi Ali endorses this sentiment. Dawkins has, of late, been airing his misgivings about gender theorists and Islamists, and constantly reaffirms his admiration for Christian art, architecture and music. These political and aesthetic preferences inspired her to refer to Dawkins at one point as one of “the most Christian” people that she knows. Strangely, then, they could find initial agreement on one point: their being just as Christian as each other.
This uneasy equilibrium provided the mise en scène for an eagerly awaited conversation between the two, which took place in Brooklyn last month. Dawkins tells us at one point that he showed up fully prepared to explain to Hirsi Ali why she is not a Christian: “The idea,” he says, “that the Universe has lurking beneath it an intelligence a supernatural intelligence that invented the laws of physics it invented mathematics […] is a stupendous idea (if it’s true) and to me that simply dwarfs all talk of nobility and morality and comfort and that sort of thing.”
He was, therefore, taken quite unawares, as were many of us, when he asked (or rather told) her, “You don’t believe Jesus rose from the dead, surely?” and she confidently replied, “I choose to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. And that is a matter of choice.” This, for Dawkins (as for me), changes the game. While throughout the event she had no hesitation in repeating her political grievances, in New York, she finally addressed the truth claims of Christianity, and appeared to confess a belief in them. “I came here prepared to persuade you, Ayaan, you’re not a Christian,” Dawkins told her, before correcting himself: “I think you are a Christian,” and — being Richard Dawkins — he added, “and I think Christianity is nonsense.”
This extraordinary event began with Hirsi Ali recounting her conversion: “I lived for about a decade with intense depression and anxiety self-loathing. I hit rock bottom. I went to a place where I actually didn’t want to live anymore but wasn’t brave enough to take my own life.” Through prayer, she managed to escape that hole. “My zest for life is back,” she declared to a healthy applause, indicative of the one thing that everyone can agree on: it is wonderful to hear that Ayaan is happy again.
After finishing this personal narrative, she could only look at Dawkins and shrug slightly. The audience laughed, in anticipation of something of a shift in tone. I did think there was something comical about following such a moving story of escape from depression and anxiety with, “But do you really think Jesus was born of a virgin?” Dawkins’s decision to do so, however, can hardly be blamed: as touching as his former colleague’s story may be, if he is right that God’s existence is a scientific question, then we should remember that bringing personal narrative into the laboratory is as inappropriate an approach as bringing a microscope into a poetry seminar. It should be no more an insult to say that Hirsi Ali’s emotional struggles are irrelevant to the question of God’s existence than it would be to say to say that scientific observations are irrelevant to the study of Keats.
As Dawkins himself put it, responding to Hirsi Ali’s fear that an atheistic universe doesn’t offer us any way to connect with each other and the cosmos: “Suppose it were true that atheism doesn’t offer anything. So what? why should it offer anything?” Further applause.
“Faith offers you something, obviously. That’s very very very clear,” he says at one point. “But it doesn’t make it true. It doesn’t make the existence claims of Christianity true.” More clapping. Given that such a claim is hardly extraordinary or controversial, this reception seemed to be less in support of the point, and more of Dawkins’s willingness to make it plain.
Yet it is worth remembering that believing something for non-rational reasons is not unusual. Our beliefs are quite often formed by our surrounding environment, rather than some kind of perfect logic and analysis of abstract syllogisms. Most people know this. Hirsi Ali is happy to admit it. You may think it imperfect, but it is not unique to her.
This means that any surge in Christian interest we may notice among our public intellectuals is unlikely to be due to a renewed interest in Biblical scholarship or the figure of the crucified Nazarene. It is instead likely a product of their environment. Cultural Christianity, then, is in many ways a political movement disguised as a religious one, reacting not to arguments for God’s existence, but concerns about the practical shortcomings of atheism and alternative religions. The kind of Christianity adopted by Hirsi Ali goes further in asserting its truth, but not very much further in its justification.
Therefore, those celebrating some alleged resurgence of Christianity ought be cautious: it would certainly be a happy day for them if their favourite intellectuals began discovering a relationship with Jesus, but if they begin converting to Christianity principally as an ideological bulwark, we may witness the return not of a meek and mild community of believers, but of a more strong-armed, aggressive Christianity that has historically been a touch more controversial.
But Ayaan does seem genuinely transformed by her new faith: she looks happy, speaks humbly, and seems genuinely uninterested in point-scoring or winning any arguments. It troubles me not at all to admit that I found myself applauding her more than Richard Dawkins. It transpired in Brooklyn that her conversion, which at first appeared mostly political, was more a result of her personal battle with nihilism. This is hardly going to convince anybody else to become Christian, but such personal experience isn’t ever supposed to.
Atheists are often told that they are plagued with a “God-shaped hole”. Hirsi Ali appears to have developed for herself a hole-shaped God. But despite the probability of at least an element of motivated reasoning in this conversion, I’m genuinely happy for her. We should keep in mind, too, as her story evolves, that our ideas are the most unclear to us when they are new, and Ayaan is a new Christian. While we are all trying to work out what she really believes, she is probably trying to work out the same thing. She, however, has the unusual courage to do it out loud.
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SubscribeI identify as a cultural Huītzilōpōchtlist; I don’t really believe Left-Handed Hummingbird exists, I’m just in it for the human sacrifice.
Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to have a hobby.
This (very badly edited) article throws up only one serious question, in my opinion: why should any of us take any more notice of what Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Richard Dawkins or any other of the “names” thrown into the ring in this and other articles choose to believe, or not?
We each have own paths in life; our own experiences. If we’ve reflected upon that path, those experiences, we’re quite capable of reaching our own conclusions. Mine is that i find religious belief impossible to countenance whilst acknowledging (and participating fully in) the spiritual dimensions of being alive, and conscious of it.
If others choose to follow organised religious doctrines, that’s entirely up to them. Ayaan Hirsi Ali finding herself happier through adopting the tenets of Christianity is fine by me, but no more important than if she decided to become a vegetarian after a lifetime of meat consumption. Good for her.
Finally, as far as i’m concerned, there is no “God-shaped hole”. When a parent dies, for instance, we can miss them, but that doesn’t mean we should seek out a replacement parent. Hopefully, we’ll have grown up sufficiently to understand the cycle of life and death in all biology. This is the status i’d hope for everyone at a certain point in their lives, without needing the support of a religious doctrine to bolster them. I appreciate that perhaps a majority of people alive are yet unable to confront this without support.
LL, from what I’ve read of you, and do not take offence to this, you have a terrible understanding of religion as a concept.
As all animals, we are born, we reproduce, and die. Our meaning of life and purpose, according to scientific understanding, is compulsive reproduction, much like an ameba. For whatever bizarre reason, humans are unwilling to accept this, and as such, create grand concepts justifying both their behaviour and their ideals, prized metaphysical concepts, stories, and behavioural patterns. This is known as “religion”, and in certain contexts, “ideology”.
Atheists, like Mr. O’Connor, almost certainly have a certain religion or ideology, in his case, Liberalism, including laughable superstitions, like “progress” or “human rights”, invented by narcissistic Europeans a couple hundred years ago. I, for instance, prize weird stories involving some Jewish hippie being crucified a couple thousand years ago.
Tl;Dr: It’s not at all about “coping with parents dying” or any other reductionism. It’s about making sense of life and what you prize. I wage 99.9% you’re religious/an ideologue since you post frequently to articles here and is yet to kill yourself over nihilistic depression.
I’d venture to suggest (since you do) that my “understanding of religion” is more advanced than yours; although it doesn’t surprise me you might think otherwise.
My experience of spiritual joy is more than sufficient to sustain me, and others as it happens. This is nothing to do with anything remotely connected to a deity.
I would further suggest that those whose religious life requires a deity to underpin it are not only fooling themselves (a common human trait) but denying themselves something even more profound.
My sincere hope is that humanity can overcome this aberration (religion) and move towards a more complete understanding, not only of ourselves, but of how we can proceed with far greater prospects than that offered by any religion or ideology, which are proving to be the most nihilistic excresence of the human imagination so far.
Well said, thank you for that.
So Lad’s claim of “spiritual joy” makes complete sense to you, yet you report to be baffled and dismayed by the asserted difference beween religious (formal or ritual worship) or spiritual (more spontaneous, less structured belief) practice?
I still have trouble with the word “spiritual” being bandied about, because I’m not sure what the definition of it really is. However, I think I understood the feeling that Lad was trying to describe experiencing, so for want of a better word I accepted it in his comment.
Not really, it’s just pretensious writings without any substance. The very defining trait of atheist ideology.
“atheist ideology”? There is no such thing. Not believing is no more an ideology than a child discovering Santa Claus does not exist.
I doubt you very much understand religion. This is always a common claim by atheists who then go onto to demonstrate their ignorance by telling Christians that they aren’t living by Christianity because some eat pork, get tattoos or wear mixed textiles, failing to realise who the Old Covenant was for and what the New Covenant is.
My hope is you realise the delusion and arrogance of a purely materialistic worldview and of atheism which is truly the most narcissistic and nihilistic excretion of human imagination so far.
Atheists always claim to have everything figured out but when pressed, produce terrible science fiction books disguised as science like Lawrence Krauss’ “A Universe From Nothing” which ironically requires more blind faith than any religion.
Why do people so need to insist to atheists that they have an ‘ideology’ or ‘religion’? A-theism is just a word for lack of belief. It simply means ‘without god or gods’. The next thing they throw at us is that we can only be agnostics because we don’t know.
Well of course we don’t ‘know’. No one does. The difference is that atheists don’t substitute a belief system for that lack of knowledge. Others have beliefs or stories that make sense to them and satisfy a need in them. And that is fine. I just don’t share the belief. So it’s annoying that believers in ‘something or other’ seem to want call my lack of belief an ‘ideology’. Why is it so difficult to accept that some people just don’t believe stuff. Why be rude about that? Pascal’s Wager – and Ayaan herself – notwithstanding, not everyone can ‘choose to believe’. And not everyone wants or needs to.
Because atheists bang on about atheism and how intelligent it is more than people bang on about their faith. I have yet to come across an atheist who truly understands faith, but who nevertheless forms an opinion on it. Like you thinking that we substitute a belief system for a lack of knowledge.
Faith is nothing special and its very easy to understand. Belief without proof. Everyone does it all the time. Science disagrees with that approach to understanding the world but even it succumbs to it e.g. Dark Energy.
Religion teaches the cycle of life, death and even suffering in life very well. It’s normally atheists who don’t understand them and often, showing their intellectual immaturity, ask, “why is life so unfair?”
Atheists themselves need the support of a doctrine that bolster them, which is why many turn to atheist leaders and their particular ideological brand of atheism.
I appreciate that atheists are yet to realise their own religioisity and their own appeal to authority. You haven’t figured out the universe by not believing in God so stop trying to present disbelief as a superior stance or a fact when nothing in science even supports atheism or the pure naturalistic belief of a universe from true nothingness.
Atheists don’t go around bleating about life being unfair or feeling superior. Or at least I don’t know any who do. We don’t need a ‘doctrine’ or ‘atheist leaders’ – what are you talking about? It’s a non belief in a god or gods. That’s all. I’m puzzled that it irks you so & that you find it necessary to be so rude. We just live our lives as if there isn’t a god. As for science not ‘supporting’ non-belief, that makes no sense. Atheism isn’t about being better at ‘figuring out the universe’. It’s just a-theist.
In fairness, how many Christians can, with complete honesty, say they have considered and fully, and literally, accept the Resurrection, the triune nature of God, etc.?
I would suggest most Christians will at least pay lip service to doctrine, but fundamentally they just want to believe in something at an emotional level, and they want to be part of a belief community which is typically the spiritual community of their birth.
How many Materialists can, with complete honesty, say they have considered and fully and literally accept the scientistic account of free-will, consciousness, subjectivity, the Self, memory, love, beauty, human dignity or any of the other utterly foundational concepts that govern, constitute and circumscribe our day to day experience of lived life?
Nietzsche alone had the courage to stare manfully into that abyss. And it eventually led him, weeping, to the neck of the Turin Horse.
Like more than a few of my generation, I suspect, it was reading the evolutionary just-so stories of Prof. Dawkins and the negationist question-begging of Prof. Daniel Dennett’s account of consciousness which first led me to turn again and engage in good faith with the Christian scriptures.
None of this needs be contrived if one believes in the workings of the Holy Ghost. One cannot ‘want to believe in something’ in a Christian sense at all. One prays to God to give one belief. It is not in anyones power to belive ‘of themselves’.
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” – John 6:44
God works through us to all good ends.
Jesus is not just the Truth and the Life but he is, before those two ambrosial consolations, the Way.
Yet his offered prayer begins “Our Father” not “Dear me”. I do not think Jesus refers to himself in the same way when talking to the public as to his disciples. Nor do I trust the later Gospel of John, with its abstract symbology, in the same way I do the synoptic texts of Mark, Matthew, and Luke.
Scientistical minds have their own pieties, usually unacknowledged. But certain mysteries and wonders are opened–whether though an Authorized or Promethean door–by seemingly independent acts of intellect and reason.
Many have used their inherited lights to deny that inheritance. Who can see the source of their own portion of light, or be certain that his or her lenses–the doors of perception–have been cleansed?
On the subject of Nietzsche, I have just bought a t-shirt featuring a picture of him, with the caption “I gazed into the abyss, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt”.
Are we talking about Christians, or are we talking about people that sign in the term “Christian” in the census?
Be judged by what you do, not what you say (or write, or type), though they all do involve ‘doing’.
Or is it, judge others by what they do, not what they say. And what they say they will do, that’s even more difficult to judge.
The mistake is to believe, unquestionly, in someone else’s god.
J you speak as one who has no knowledge or understanding of the New Testament and spiritual rebirth. Being born again is real. The letters of Paul and the other writers teach on and bear witness of an experience that hundreds of millions of Christian believers share. We received new life in Christ at a real conversion experience. Paul’s letters resonate with me because I live them. I meditate on them daily to get deeper understanding. I identify with them. They are part of who I am, as the Bible as a whole is like a lens to understand God.
Scientifically, I believe in God as Creator through my knowledge of mathematics, and my study of Intelligent Design; morally, I believe in the teachings of Christ as the sublime forgiver of human sin; intellectually believe in the facts of the Virgin Birth and Resurrection because the historical evidence is overwhelming, experientially I believe Jesus because He lives up to everything that His word promises. Is that enough evidence?
No.
I know any number of people who have reported very similar experiences following the consumption of large doses of psychedelic drugs.
Most of them atheists undoubtedly since to accept atheism’s conclusions of a universe from nothing as truth, you’d have to be high on psychedelic drugs.
I imagine the author of “A Universe From Nothing”, Lawrence Krauss, was high on drugs when he wrote that book. Rightfully it was rejected by all other physicists as nothing more than a work of faith.
Faith in what?
“A Universe From Nothing” is not science. It’s something believers made up, another straw dog to convince themselves they don’t just believe in nonsense. Their secret fear.
Everyone is entitled to their own delusional thinking and the conclusions they reach
Yeah, I say that about atheists all the time since the conclusions of atheism are completely delusional.
Atheists come to no conclusions. That’s the point. We accept that we don’t know. To believe in deities has consequences, often dangerous ones. The ongoing conflict in the Middle East is the proof. All based on what each other’s ’gods’ have supposedly promised.
One of the more succinct descriptions of Christian belief and why I am a Atheist. I grew up under relentless Christian education and discovered I have no god-hole and Nihilism provides me comfort.
Surveys, averaged out across all Catholics in all parts of the world put the number to your question at about 70%. Roughly the same number who accept the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Look, if you actually believe in God, the resurrection is very easy to accept; its a snack, actually.
“But do you really think Jesus was born of a virgin?”
The gospels state that Mary was a “parthenos” – a virgin, maiden, girl, or young woman. Given the normal age for women to have their first child in the first century Roman empire I would have thought it quite reasonable to believe that Mary was a “parthenos” as described.
Mary is visited by an angel who informs her that God will give her a child – the method is not described (although Mary asks “how?”), but as proof that he (the angel) isn’t winding her up, he tells her that her relative, who is too old to conceive, is now pregnant – there is no suggestion that this other baby is the (literal) son of God and not the child of its mother’s husband.
Similarly in the Old Testament, God enables Abraham’s wife Sarah to give birth when she is by some estimates 90 years old. The child, Isaac, is the son of Abraham not the son of God. The God of the Old Testament quite frequently generates miraculous pregnacies (or replacements for dead children, as in Job) without being the father of the resulting infants – the father is the spouse of the pregnant mother, even when natural conception appears to have been impossible.
Jesus himself is pretty unclear on the subject, regularly describing himself as “the son of man” and evidently regarding God as the father of all mankind: “Our Father…”
Dawkins should be clearer about the difference between the foundational texts of Christianity and creeds that were agreed far later by only part of the Church – Orthodox and Catholic Christians have somewhat different definitions of Christ’s status.
With respect, Christ never lacks clarity, it is we who see through a glass darkly.
Your engagement with the issue appears to be diverging into Adoptionism and the conversation around that, from the Early Church to our own day, is on the open record for anyone interested. Any orthodox Trinitarian Christians reading should be aware that it has been considered a standard heresy for a very long time.
Jesus does indeed refer to himself as the “Son of Man” more times than any other title. Intriguingly, this is actually a claim to be God – see Daniel chapter 7 – 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
There is no difference between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics regarding Christ’s status. The difference is regarding the Holy Spirit; whether it proceeds only from the Father or simultaneously from the Father and the Son.
Is it also time to revive the classic medieval argument of transubstantiation vs. consubstantiation?
And I’m still waiting for someone to determine how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.
I was not commenting on the question in order to revive it, I just corrected a factually incorrect statement about catholic-orthodox difference made by the commenter called Point of Information.
P.S Regarding the angels on the head of a pin, there actually was no contention, since more or less all medieval theologians agreed that the number was infinite, since angels are non-spatial. D.S.
Well, one point settled, then.
One might ask how many it would take to screw in a light bulb.
I know how many drummers it takes to screw in a lightbulb – twenty. One to hold the lightbulb, and the other nineteen to keep drinking until the room starts spinning round.
Funny.
Don’t believe everything you read. If this story was in the NYP would you believe it?
We have extra biblical evidence not only confirming that Jesus existed but accounts from 1st century historians such as Tactius, Josephus, Pliny etc that affirm the validity of the gospels.
Meanwhile atheism is wishful thinking in a universe from nothing which is impossible. And if you think The Big Bang theory proves that, you misunderstand what The Big Bang theory is including the fact that it actually supports theism. Fred Hoyle recognised this which is why he opposed it arguing that it “brings religious implications to physics by implying the universe had a beginning and therefore a creator.”
Questions of “where did God come from?” are just moving the goal post. The Prime Mover argument already addressed this. Atheism, when followed by deductive reasoning has nothing to support it. Its own hope in “something from nothing” can be used against it thereby making it a self refuting position.
What’s ‘biblical evidence’? Can we also use Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy?
Great seeing Alex on Unherd.
Christopher Hitchens called believers that take bible literally as the only believers that are intellectually honest. Or something like that. Couldn’t agree more. Listening to all others as to why Christianity is true or how they interpret the bible is white noise.
I wonder which part of the bible Hitchens thought believers should take literally. The bible (Hebrew and Christian testaments) is a compilation of complex stories, teachings, prayers, doctrines.
Excactly. Christopher Hitchens specialism was polemics but the guy didn’t know Jack Shit about the Bible.
His reputation & arguments are much diminished in recent years.
Maybe they should take Methuselah literally. Living to 969 is entirely plausible
There was a day not long ago when a person living to 100 was an astonishing impossibility.
Exceedingly rare but not unheard of since ancient times.
It was rare but not impossible. Modern science hasn’t really pushed out the maximum age we can live, life expectancy has risen simply because more of us are reaching old age
Do you think it could ever extend beyond 125-135 or so, apart from some transhumanist nightmare fantasy?
And do we want it to?
Aye. What sort of years are we talking about and will there be room for all those ultra-aged people no longer making room for posterity?
We probably could (replace various organs as they fail etc) but I don’t think it would be much of a life. You’d still be stuck with a decrepit body and a failing brain
Not true. Some people did live to be a hundred a long time ago. Now more do, kept alive by science, but usually with poor quality of life.
Do you know or believe people lived past 100 in ancient times? And what is the evidence that supports it? Do we have birth certificates? It is amazing what we take on ‘faith’ when we want to.
A long time ago is different than “ancient times”.
An excellent argument for why you probably shouldn’t take Christopher Hitchens seriously.
He clearly didn’t know much about the Bible if that was his stance.
He knew about polemics, true, but not the subject matter it relates to here.
He may have skimmed the Bible with an eye toward being able to dismiss and discredit in it more detail.
It’s really not necessary to read the bible to know that there is no such thing as god.
It’s only necessary to have a powerful experience of presence–or two–to know there is Something. Now, that knowing is no more, or less, demonstrably factual than your fixed certainty to the contrary. I can certainly understand remaining unconvinced or uncertain of a higher power but to declare certainly in the opposite direction, given our created or at least “non-self-generated” condition, strikes me as a militancy comparable to some forms of fanatical orthodoxy.
If a belief in “something” gets you through the night, AJ, far be it for me to take that comfort away from you.
Finally! Thanks for the indulgence, Clare.
And if you derive some benefit from an adamantine belief in sheer Nothingness beyond the the empirical and material world–which we both agree can be beautiful and astonishing–then I won’t try to take that assurance from you–I might if I thought you were budgeable!
We can regard one another as mutually unbudgeable when it comes to a personal belief in Providence, or a fierce lack thereof.
But I agree with you on many things and I hope we’ll not ridicule or dismiss each for our respective points of view. This one is an impasse between us and we should both seek more fertile fields.
Of course we can beg to differ although I don’t feel it’s a matter of being stubborn. Speaking for myself it’s experiential not a belief.
Or rather, to believe there is ‘something’. The human brain is excellent at throwing shapes & deceiving us with shadows. How we interpret them is key.
You know there is no god? Funny how you atheists have yet to prove that position. If you know, that means you have evidence. Oh right, you don’t.
Truth is, atheism is completely false. When you study physics, it becomes apparent that God exists and that atheism is just wishful thinking.
A universe from nothingness is an impossibility, it defies not only observational evidence but it also defies the scientific law of casuality. How would nothingness even do something in the first place?
You claim to know, you claim to have evidence…well go ahead and show it and wow the world. Or just admit the truth that your “claim” is just blind faith on your part.
No! Yet again, there is this stubborn insistence that atheism claims to ‘know’. A-theism is simply from the Greek meaninghaving no god. It’s a state of unbelief, not a statement of fact. When it comes to facts we are all agnostics, because none of us knows. But some people have some beliefs, and good luck to them.
Or rather, not to believe it..
Hardly. Something happened. Then the account was transmitted by word of mouth, selected, written down, and recopied. Christianity without any miracles may not count as Christianity, but there is nothing dishonest in believing that something miraculous happened, even if you do not believe all the details of the written record.
Aye. I don’t think a phenomenon should have to break the known laws of physics to count as a miracle.
Why not? What is your definition of a miracle?
It resists definition. But, to indulge you: An occurrence or force of great power, so unlikely, transformative, or enduring that no rational explanation–available or not–could ever capture it or explain it away.
Quite a good definition. But isn’t breaking the laws of physics kind of part of it?
Again, not to me. For example, recovering from cancer when you’re given zero or a one-in-ten-thousand chance is a form of miracle: a glorious deliverance that points to a Power beyond ourselves.
*I accept that the primary and more common definition involves something beyond known physical laws.
Perhaps a misdiagnosis?
Clearly, when zero chance was allowed. Also a “misdiagnosis” of reality, which remains well beyond our full understanding or control.
And misdiagnosis can work both ways, as when someone is given the all-clear & then succumbs a month later. Transformative & powerful but not in a good way…
Good answer. I think the meaning of Miracle as breaking the laws of nature is still important, but I admit that I also use miracle in the sense you mentioned above. Maybe the philosophicaly stringent should use the terms miracle type a and miracle type b.
The Laws of Physics can be an entirely odd thing. Matter materialises out of nothing, and disappears back to nothing, all the time.
I’ve seen magic tricks like that.
Sure, reduce it to that if you must.
Thank you, I will!!
Haha! Upvoted.
The irony is Clare, as an atheist believes in the ultimate magic trick: a universe from nothing.
Their “evidence?” The Big Bang theory…or at least misunderstanding the theory because that doesn’t actually say where the universe came from. In fact, The Big Bang theory aligns with what we theists have been saying all along…that the universe had a beginning.
Atheists will catch up someday. One day, they’ll understand casuality next.
There is much value in interpretation. Pope Francis himself does not believe the Bible completely literally, as he believes in evolution. People who have non-literal interpretations of the Bible have often thought about and analyzed philosophical topics more than many atheists and literal believers. Alex is a notable exception, of course, being an atheist who reflects constantly on religious philosophy. Yet I am sure he would agree with me that there is value in interpretation, given how much time he has spent listening to and engaging with people whose interpretations of the scriptures are not necessarily literal (e.g. Peterson and Shapiro).
Quite a lot of the early church fathers didn’t take the creation narrative, and if I remember correctly, neither did Calvin. Most of them interpreted it as being historical but not in a literalistical way.
I think many biblical literalists of today would be dismayed at how many earlier Christian and Jews–even the human authors of many books in what is bound together as the Bible–viewed the supernatural and otherworldly aspects of the texts as something figurative or still unknown.
He is not the first pope to believe evolution is compatible with Christianity. Pope PiusXII claimed the same thing in Humani Generis. Other Christian’s who thought evolution compatible with Christianity without being “liberal” or “modernist” where CS Lewis and Billy Graham. None of them would have thought you could be Christian within believing in the resurrection.
Christopher Hitchens was also an idiot. As per usual, like every other atheist, he could never give a good argument or evidence for a universe from true nothingness.
Atheism falls apart when you actually study physics and logic. It goes against casuality namely.
The one atheist who did try to prove atheism’s natural conclusion, Lawrence Krauss, wrote a book called “A Universe From Nothing” which was rightfully dismissed by all other physicists as speculative fiction and ironically blind faith. Like Hitchens, Dawkins etc…he presented no evidence.
Truth is, you either believe in a impossibility “something from nothing” (which if true, can easily be applied to God) or an eternal source which doesn’t contradict casuality. The question then becomes “is that eternal source conscious?” but either way, that source is “God.” If you then choose to believe that consciousness can only exist inside the universe and not outside, well that’s really your own problem. If consciousness can exist inside the universe, nobody can rule out consciousness existing outside the universe. Furthermore, mindlessness doesn’t account for the fine tuned universe model in physics.
You believe in a god – I get it. You have beliefs. You don’t need proof. Fine. But you have an uninformed & simplistic view of atheism. I make no claims. I just don’t do belief.
As for science, it seeks knowledge through thesis, experiment, extrapolation. It’s an ongoing process of discovery, whatever the beliefs of the person performing the job. And anyone claiming that a ‘mind’ created the ‘fine-tuned universe model in physics’ should really show their workings, don’t you think? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
”It should be no more an insult to say that Hirsi Ali’s emotional struggles are irrelevant to the question of God’s existence than it would be to say to say that scientific observations are irrelevant to the study of Keats.”
This part has been repeated and needs re-editing,
But the writer is getting a bit mixed up here. God is not a quantifiable, empirically verifiable truth-claim, or merely a scientific hypothesis.
It is more in the realm of the poetic. And treating it as a scientific hypothesis is comparable to bringing microscopes and test-tubes into poetry seminars.
This is why Skepticism sharpens Christianity. For the most part, everything Alex said is valid (although I’m not sure why he cited a gnostic gospel). But while valid and interesting as an observation, its also just a critique of the doctrinal practioners not the doctrine.
The God of the Bible doesn’t claim to be material. He claims to have shaped the material world and its processes.
So any “debate” is basically one group relying exclusively on indirect/second hand evidence and the other group saying it won’t accept any indirect evidence. Any failure of modern Christians is the failure to provide overwhelming indirect evidence. I find overwhelming indirect evidence in the utility provided by a doctrine that correctly pinpoints human nature. Now some people may not agree or think that’s abstract and we can argue about that…but at the end of the day choosing to believe or not believe in anything wholeheartedly is a question of faith.
Either you put your faith in the idea that everyone is created in the image of God or in some kind of cooperative anthropological theory with speculative assumptions about man’s evolution. There’s a reason John Locke’s conception of human nature produced infinitely more prosperity and freedom than Rousseau’s. It’s not because Locke was some Christian apologist. It’s because unlike Rousseau he ascribed to a biblical view of Human Nature.
The beauty of Christianity is that you can see it working through non-believers. You see it in Alex, Dawkins and even Harris. Christianity has remained strong because Cultural Christians have historically defended real believers. They’ve done this out of reciprocity or utility because they know Christians will also stand up for them in the face of unjust persecution. So the interests of Scientific Atheists actually dovetails perfectly with the Christian ethic which is an honest and sincere pursuit of truth. I would guess there is little difference between Alex’s view of “justice” and that of a Christian. Alex is absolutely informed by Christian precepts even if he rejects God.
The horsemen are getting some fundamentals incorrect about human nature and it’s not because they aren’t brilliant. It’s because they’re unwilling to question their own assumptions about human nature because of their own intelligence.
Great comment.
Interesting comment. It makes me wonder where I fit in. Both my parents were at various times Christian (my father was a lay preacher in his young adulthood, and my mother was a devout Lutheran to her death). At no point however could I have said that I was in any way Christian. Even as a small child accompanying my mother to Church, I thought “there is nothing in this place for me”. I would defend Christians of any stripe not because I believe that there is any merit in Christianity as it is practised in the 21st Century, but because I believe individual freedom is important. To deflect any notion that I might be a Cultural Christian, I should say that I loathe Christmas, and always go overseas at that time, mostly to a non-Christian country (Nepal last year, India this year).
I was like that by the time I was an adult. I’m not sure what happened but at some point (after getting interested in meditation and some eastern ideas) I realised that what I had thought was Christianity (informed by going to Church with parents once every couple of years, school and from hollywood) was interpreted into a flat, materialistic ontology. I didn’t quite understand it at first, and in fact I ran away from it for several years (looking for ‘fun’ instead), but once I started going to Catholic mass each weak and spent a “holy hour” each week in silence, it all started to click.
There are many layers of assumption in the modern mindset, about what is real especially. It’s a kind of positivist materialism after positivism has been refuted, a kind of relativism even though relativism is just a type of nihilism that makes the very objects and laws of science upon which it is grounded become trivial. If any of this was true, then sure, lets have the full, raw truth ugly as it may be. But ultimately the assumptions are fairly absurd; that the works of Shakespeare were in effect written at the point of the Big Bang, that the fine tuning of hundreds of aspects of physics was just lottery win after lottery win after lottery win (or invent trillions of universes for no other reason), that there is something rather than nothing as brute fact, that it’s all intelligible to us hairless monkeys on a spec in a galactic backwater.
The best mathematicians accept a platonic idea of maths, that new elements are discovered not created. Science couldn’t function without an essentially platonic understanding of the objects and laws it studies, and willingly adopts hierarchical taxonomies to describe nature. Yet we still teach in schools an assumed flat ontology after 700 years of making the same anti-platonic assumptions. To be honest it’s a surprise that anyone believed in Christianity with these assumptions. Add “Songs of Praise” as the main religious content on TV and it can must be a miracle…
I have always thought two things about Christianity: 1) If it were invented today, it would be quite a hard sell from a marketing perspective, and 2) If the historical Jesus Christ came back to earth now, and looked at the Church created in his name, he would say “You morons! You misunderstood everything I said!”
Your belief that individual freedom is important comes 100% from Christianity.
No it doesn’t.
It does, if the only two choices are faith or the abyss.
I don’t think that is right. It might come from something said by the historical Jesus of Nazareth (although I’m sure the concept predated him), but its validity does not derive from said Jesus being the Son of God, or from his having died on the cross, and risen from the dead.
I don’t think MM was referring to your personal notions, but rather to documented history, which is another matter entirely.
Bravo. Well said. Lots of atheists I’ve read and talked to rejected Christianity as teens. They claim to be true seekers but then have done little more investigation. Dawkins in embarrassingly ignorant of Christian doctrine and especially the nature of God. They seem like intelligent people scorning their teenage understanding of the faith.
I am still waiting for the definitive answer from “god” on why if there is only one god, there are so many religions in tbe world seemingly opposed to each other. When I get an answer, I might believe in “god”, but never a virgin birth or a reserrection! I dont need a “god” to be ethical and moral because so many religious people are neithse and so never a good example .
‘ethicaand moral’ – that is what Christianity brings – ethics and morality.
Without this Christian standard everything can be ‘ethical and moral’ if a person believes it, such as believing that theft is ok and murder is ok if they don’t agree with you.
Wrong. Read Steven Pinker’s Blank Slate: he sets out truths universal to all human societies (not just Christian ones) – murder and theft are ALWAYS wrong, and condemned. Christianity has no more of a claim, let alone a monopoly, on ethics and morality than it does over slam dunks.
So your position is that the writers of the Old and New Testaments were unaware of Polytheism and expected all would convert to belief in the God of the two books without creating their own golden calf?
One man’s theology is another man’s belly laugh- Robert Heinlein
“They seem like intelligent people scorning their teenage understanding of the faith.”
Very true.
They have not investigated what they were told a a child, think it is childish what they were told about Christianity and don’t seem to understand that they were told things at a childish level because they were children back then.
They need to investigate Christianity at an adult level now that they are adults.
‘They’ve done this out of reciprocity or utility because they know Christians will also stand up for them in the face of unjust persecution. ‘
There’s very little evidence for that statement. History shows Christians have been more than happy to commit murder against those they considered guilty of apostasy or unbelief.
Yes. The relative tolerance of most present-day Christians is subject to a descent into zealotry or some reversion to a coercive National Faith.
You provided zero context. What are we talking about here? The Salem Witch Trials, the Spanish Inquisition or some other period of time where a small number of people were persecuted by an overzealous, reportedly “Christian” authority.
If we’re going to be that historically lazy than we have to treat the horrors of Communism and the Italian/German Socialist outgrowths as a by-product of Atheism. Marx said himself that Communism starts with Atheism. My guess is that you’re not willing to pin the horrors of the 20th century on Atheism. For the record, neither am I which is why I think your argument is lazy and biased. Treat the two concepts with impartiality.
I wasn’t making an explicit comparison with Marxist regimes. I was pointing out that Christians have a fairly extensive record of being persecutors as well as resisters of oppression. Especially as regards other Christians. And the Jews.
You still haven’t been specific. Regardless, my point is that you’re clearly equating specific regimes with Christianity and not conflating Marxism with Atheism.
Why are you making Christianity the cause of one oppression but letting Atheism off the hook for the ongoing horrors of Marxism?
I’m not doing any of those things. You’re being silly.
What “history shows,” about two billion people, over the course of two millennia, cannot be so glibly summarized. Particular now that Christianity’s global center of gravity has moved so far south.
I’ve added this to the collection of quotes about faith (secular and religious) forming part of the Newcreate.org website. Thank you T Bone.
“Any failure of modern Christians is the failure to provide overwhelming indirect evidence.”
The early church’s “indirect evidence”, however, was apparently sufficiently convincing to making an impact on society:
“Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.” (Acts 2:46-47)
Yes!
Having a “God-shaped hole” is one thing, but I have never seen why that must necessarily be filled by the Judeo-Christian God. I asked an uncle of mine (a Lutheran Minister) this once, and he was unable to provide a satisfactory answer. I have always thought that if one must fill that supposed hole, one would be better off going for a religion with a bit of “zap” and “zing. Listening to a boring guy drone on about what it says in the Bible, and singing dreary hymns, was never for me.
A quick disembowelment with steaming innards held up to the sun at the apex of a pyramid?
Yep, that’ll do! Message me with the details of their next meeting!
I always found a Saturday afternoon of atrocious lower league football, a dozen lagers and a slightly ropey late night liaison filled the God shaped hole in my life quite nicely. I certainly wasn’t getting up for a Sunday service after that lot
If there really is a god shaped hole, shaped that way because there is a real God meant to fill it, then it should be filled by the real God. Deciding whether the Christian God is the answer to filling it thus goes together with deciding if Christianity is true.
Sure, but my point is that many people through history have found that other gods fitted perfectly well.
I’ve always thought we all have a questioning, restless nature which makes us feel empty at times – but in my case, this intermittent hole definitely isn’t ‘God-shaped’.
I explained to a Christian that as a non-believer I take life on the chin and she replied “thank you for your service” which I thought was hilarious.
Yes. Isn’t that what Americans say to returned servicemen.
Exactly.
Thanks Alex, your comments are always intriguing and give rise to more thoughtful discussions in the over-crowded intellectual sphere. Perhaps, to put it more succinctly, you seem to air and give voice to a more ‘common’ crowd which usually is not heard. Please pardon my pun. Not meant to be offensive.
I say not to write this ‘movement’ totally off yet though. Perhaps there is a movement, or more possibly openness to thought, the unseen and unspoken musings which in many ways cannot be named. A re-look if you like. Perhaps this moment has ‘given permission’ to those who privately have pondered and wondered to themselves, without wanting to voice what they have been querying or questioning – that which lacks. The longing of connection to all things ‘real’.
I think Elizabeth in the Unherd night out you spoke of, voiced a truth and a reality that is so rarely fully given its total merit and due. This very embodiment of relational truth speaks to something much deeper and soulful that words do not usually adequately provide. Or more truthfully, we have lost the beauty and eloquence of the original meaning and historical roots. Therefore we have lost ‘words’ original source of power. Source being the operative word. Source being that which binds us all. As we move further away from it, to its outer reaches, it is logical, is it not, that a gnawing for its opposite grows in equal measure.
Could it be that in fact we have in our race for enlightenment and ever greater technological advances that we in fact have lost the meaning of its true ‘language’ that our forebearers once had. To be so literal in fact is the anti-thesis of everything that Christianity stands for.
The aliveness of reality. What’s living.
Beautiful comment
A scientific fact is one which is falsifiable. In other words the scientific theory only holds provided there is no evidence that contradicts it. The fact of the Virgin birth is not contradicted by the absence of similar events precisely because it is regarded as miraculous and abnormal. The evidence regarding the birth, death and resurrection of Christ exists in testimony but is not falsifiable in a scientific sense. We can’t run the experiment again to show that what is claimed did not or could not happen. Like any testimony we can only believe or disbelieve it.
In a murder trial we hear the evidence and believe beyond reasonable doubt that the accused committed the crime but subsequent evidence such as new DNA evidence may make it clear that our belief was flawed. So far there there is no compelling reason to disbelieve the testimony of the witnesses to the story of Christianity even if some are not convinced of its truth and consider the hearsay evidence unsatisfactory to prove it in a scientific sense. The Christian, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, believes because they chose to believe in the same way that the member of the jury chooses to believe the evidence despite the fact that they can not know and their belief may be contradicted subsequently by compelling contrary evidence.
The recent film ‘Anatomy of a Fall’ sets this out. The protagonist, a fourteen year old blind boy, is confronted with the death of his father in a fall in the house he and his mother also live in, and only the three of them are present, along with a dog.
The mother could have pushed his father – she has motives – and as much as he tries, he cannot prove definitively that she did not.
Faced with that uncertainty, but with his decision being critical to the trial outcome, he has to take his mother on faith, and chooses to.
‘ A scientific fact is one which is falsifiable. In other words the scientific theory only holds provided there is no evidence that contradicts it. The fact of the Virgin birth is not contradicted by the absence of similar events precisely because it is regarded as miraculous and abnormal. The evidence regarding the birth, death and resurrection of Christ exists in testimony but is not falsifiable in a scientific sense. We can’t run the experiment again to show that what is claimed did not or could not happen. Like any testimony we can only believe or disbelieve it.’
Surely plausibility comes into play here? Your argument is basically there’s no evidence that it DIDN’T happen, therefore it did. There’s no evidence my next door neighbour isn’t secretly an alien masquerading as a human but I’d be a bit cracked to believe such a thing. However when it’s Jesus we’re talking about well that’s obviously different….
There is lots of first-hand testimony that Christ rose from the dead, recorded by people who were subject to persecution and even execution for making that claim. I do not think first-hand testimony is irrefutable obviously, but it places divinity claims in a different category than pure speculation. After all, are you willing to put your life on the line to defend your neighbor’s alien status? (Check out ‘They Flew’ a recent book on the difficulty of how historians should interpret widely-attested reports of saintly miracles.)
Thank you I will.
It rather depends what evidence you have that your neighbour is an alien masquerading as a human.
Have there been numerous recordings of him doing stuff that humans normally can’t do and has he made any claims to alien status and provided supporting evidence? Why does he claim to be alien and what is his motive for doing so? Do you have other neighbours who believe his evidence that he is an alien and prepared to suffer ridicule or persecution in support of that belief?
Of course in the absence of any such evidence in favour of your neighbour being an alien you would indeed be more than a bit cracked to suddenly believe he was one.
The divinity of Christ rests on rather more than a lack of contrary evidence. It is not irrational not to believe it but neither is such belief exactly the same status as an evidence free belief that your neighbour is an alien.
A fair point.
It has been said that faith cannot lay a finger on science, but also that science cannot lay a finger on faith.
Excellent, well reasoned essay, but I disagree with the premise. You can be Christian and believe in God without actually believing Christ rose from the dead.
Yes. One cannot be a fundamentalist Christian who reads scripture as literal perhaps but of course it’s not intended to be interpreted that way in the first place. IMHO anyway…
Many Christians would disagree with that statement.
Except the guy who created the Christianity we know today says you can’t.
You mean St. Paul, born Saul of Tarsus?
Being a Christian is not the same thing as being a mere theist. That belief in the resurrection is what really makes you a Christian is something apostle Paul, the Greek church fathers,the Latin church fathers, the medieval scholastic theologians, the Protestant reformers and all the popes agree on. It is the difference between Christianity and not Christianity.
But I don’t see how following the known teachings of Jesus of Nazareth necessitates that belief. Nor how possessing that belief necessitates any true adherence to his teachings.
That of course depends on what you consider part of His teachings. There are sayings in the Gospels where He talks about His resurrection before His death. And from the Christian perspective, what He said about it after the resurrection is as important as what He said before.
Anyway, the point was the definition of “Christian”. Mahatma Gandhi was a great admirer of Jesus, and put His ethical teachings into practice far better than most christians, but he remained an Hindu.
I’d say that is far more in the spirit of the teachings than saying his name a lot or assigning miraculous or godly powers to him.
“These people honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me”
“Not every one who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of Heaven, be he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”
This is what Jesus declared most important in the Hebrew faith wherein he was raised:
‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
While I believe Jesus transcends any orthodox letter of the Law–let alone the exactarianism of the Pharisees or the status-minded skepticism of the Sadducees–he was a Jew and his offered prayer begins: “Our Father”.
I hope you’ll excuse my responding emphatically and at such length, but I stand in fierce, heartfelt disagreement with those who think any supernatural or otherworldly aspect of the Gospels is the most important part.
But He also talks a lot of His own supernatural importance in the gospels. You are simply picking what seems congenial to you. Which of course you can. But it is not Christianity. This sub thread began with commenter Jim Veenbaas saying that you could be a Christian without believing in the deity of, or resurrection of Christ. You seems to agree with him, but I think the both of you are doing a category mistake. You should rather say that you think Christianity was a mistake and misunderstanding of Jesus, and that you think a non-Christian religion based on some of the teachings of Jesus would be better, and more faithful to the historical Jesus, than Christianity.
No, it isn’t. I admit that. But I maintain what you to some extent seem to allow: the sprit and message of the teacher may nevertheless be made flesh in sincere followers of the Life and Teachings. I see the Message and Sacrifice as real and vital for this troubled world, more than the next one, whatever that may or may not be. And I am using capitals for those nouns to indicate that I hold them to be sacred and singular in the case of the Nazarene.
The direct teachings of Jesus are not Christianity either. Because Jesus was not a Christian. Much of the Christology comes from Paul, and the later highly symbolic and abstract Gospel of John (admittedly, not all of it does). I confess that I don’t trust every word in any Gospel, but most in all of them, especially when the words are attributed to the living Source.
My position is not to deny any supernatural or otherworldly aspects of the Gospels, but to announce that I consider them secondary, and unimportant to me personally at this time. (I used to be some kind of definitional Christian, those I was born to ex-Catholic hippies who retained no formal religion).
To the extent the word is made flesh in their lives–that the tree bears good fruit in this world–I celebrate institutional Christians of any stripe. I should spend more time keeping the inside of my own cup clean rather than preaching my idiosyncratic beliefs to others. I sense you are a sincere Christian of the better sort and I wish you well.
Thanks for the good-faith exchange. See you on the next board.
*And please take the last word here, if so inclined.
Thank you too. In theworld today conversations in good faith is far to rare, especially online. It is something in the very nature of the internet that often turns people, myself included, into their worst selves. And I will admit, that while I keep to what I have said about the meaning of Christianity, your perspective is a very good corrective that all traditional Christians should take to heart.
‘ even Richard Dawkins — the archetypal modern atheist who has done more to confront organised religion than perhaps any other identifiable person in a generation — happily adopts this paradoxical moniker for himself.’
I’m not sure that’s true at all. In his recent debate with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Dawkins seemed to reluctantly concede that he enjoys forms of Christian art and moral philosophy, but his argument seems to be that he doesn’t class those philosophies as strictly Christian but part of a broader western / European tradition.
Its probably a more accurate description of Ali, who when pressed effectively admitted she doesn’t believe the bible or its stories are literally true, and appears to have adopted Christianity due to a personal crisis and mental health struggles.
I heard her say she thought the bible stories were true, and believed the miracles and the resurrection. It’s clear she has adopted Christianity as a comfort which, as Dawkins said, is all fine and dandy but it still doesn’t make it true.
As an atheist, I too enjoy the music and art of Christianity. Singing Christmas carols is delightful, particularly the pagan ones. I’ll take beauty wherever I can find it.
I’d be careful with Tom Holland. I started being suspicious after he thoroughly took on the thesis of the Cathars’ non existence on his Rest is History podcast, which, tho it is a serious thesis, is controversial at best – and by no means supported across the spectrum.
eg, where did writings like the Lyons Cathar ritual come from, if there were no Cathars ?? It is obviously the product of an organised system.
And on Islam there are a number of claims Holland hasn’t addressed, and where he seems guilty of the sloppy scholarship he has condemned in others :
https://drjonathanbrown.com/2015/tom-holland-the-five-daily-prayers-and-they-hypocrisy-of-revisionism/
I read one of his books and would classify it as ‘popular history ‘. This is not a put-down but I was irritated by the tone which at times veered to the over-racy in an attempt to make some eye-catching statement.
I am not sure I would classify it as history at all. Having read his books on Rome, it seems to me he takes all the available written sources completely at face value and then turns them into a good highly embellished yarn. I would view his writing as historical novels which are to be fair entertaining although definitely not in the same class as Hilary Mantel.
With the Cathars he maybe had the issue of having to pick a side, since the issue of whether there were real Cathars – at least as we would understand them – is a live issue, and has been since 2014.
But it’s not a mature issue – the protagonists are still at the sniping stage – and it’s not yet at the point where it’s ready to be be told as an embellished yarn.
I find this essay unconvincing. 1. God’s existence is patently _not_ a scientific question, 2. I’ve heard Hirsi Ali in interview expressing her profound belief in the doctrines of Christianity – above all the doctrine of love, 3. the crucified Nazarene is the ultimate symbol of that doctrine.
Those of us who grew up taking this foundation for granted, then ‘growing out of it’ when we became too clever by half, have missed the point completely. Faith is not rational and needn’t be: it is much less Dawkins, much more Keats’ ‘Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge.’
Finally, given we _all_ believe in something: Dawkins in the supremacy of the intellect, others in gender ideology or the sacredness of minorities, others in their own status / power, Islam in submission and conversion (another way of saying status / power), the burning question for me has become: which faith should one _work_ to adopt? Give me the doctrine of love, humility and forgiveness any day of the week – for both myself and my society.
Keats’ negative capability is just as applicable to a position of non-belief, arguably more so, as Christianity claims to provide answers.
Agnosticism perhaps; atheism no way!
No rational person calls themself “agnostic” regarding the existence of leprechauns or unicorns. Why do claims of deities merit special treatment?
I’m in primary agreement: intriguing, not very persuasive. Bringing a microscope into a discussion of faith or lack thereof is a misguided as bringing a purely aesthetic or “artistic” sensibility into a research laboratory. Close call anyway.
I thank the transcendent, inscrutable God that Christian faith currently lives in a place where most practitioners either don’t want or wouldn’t dare to persecute or murder non-believers in the name of the Lord as they (mis)understand Him. That comparative tolerance could, however, change–or revert. More must walk a middle path between condemnatory zealotry and a wide-open libertinism that sets examples that give fuel to fanatics both within Christianity and in other faith traditions, especially one in particular. Those who think there is no I s l a m i c precedent (and living example) for ecumenicalism and tolerance should “google” the Sufis, for starters. But who am I to judge?
Thanks for quoting Keats’s letter to his brothers at more than typical length. It’s fair to note that, as you know, Keats coined the term in reference to Shakespeare, a towering and enduring genius who–though he may not have been an devout or otherworldly man–probably went at least as far as Hamlet: “There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy”. Or yours, or mine, or any other person’s for that abstract matter.
Thanks for your response, with which I mostly agree (mine wasn’t the down vote). However the more I learn about the Quran & the Hadiths (their prophet’s example), the less confident I am that this is a religion that isn’t doomed to perpetuate violent political as well as personal and domestic cruelties on a large scale. As Derrida used to say ‘il n’ya pas de hors texte’. And the Derrideans sure get on with the Islamists…
I share some of your worry too. But I think it’s important to remember and insist that one billion believers are not a monolith.
The patriarch Moses–whom I believe to have been a person of genuine inspiration and sacred destiny–ordered the slaughter of thousands of his own people in connection with the golden calf “incident” (Exodus 32:25), supposedly to appease the Lord. Does that constitute some foundational and ongoing bloodthirst in Judaism?
As you know, there are also many wartime cruelties, on the part of Israel, recorded in the Old Testament. And the long era of the Crusades and other hideous bloodlettings in the supposed name of Christ or God (especially after Luther, both from Catholics and Protestants) also–in a reductive and uncharitable sense–stain the collective hands of Christians.
Yet we’re far more able to see nuance and redeeming graces in our own faith tradition.
Some postmodernists may imagine an affinity or “strategic alliance” with Islamic extremists, but they can’t see eye to eye too often.
No, they’re not a monolith, but their holy text and prophet both instruct them to believe and enact some terrible things. I know some lovely Muslims who self-declare that they are nice because they are ‘bad Muslims’. Even worse, their text specifically forbids modifying or modernising the ‘religion’ in any way – on pain of death. Ditto leaving it of course. So can we really call it a religion at all – isn’t faith voluntary?
Moses was a man living in a bloody era. I don’t say there isn’t a tonne of violence in the bible – it was written in violent times. Ditto the Judean wars and the Crusades. But the ten commandments are the actual instructions to Jews and Christians alike & they’re pretty clear on violence. Conversely the Quran instructs to fight all non-believers until they submit or die.
The red-green alliance is obviously absurd & the reds will be eliminated pronto by the greens if their wishes ever come true, but that doesn’t stop them from being a very powerful & unified bloc for the moment – institutionally, in the media, on campuses, marching the streets every Saturday, etc. I wouldn’t underestimate their union: it worked in Iran in ‘79.
You introduce a lot of valid evidence, which you seem to regard as conclusive. But it’s ludicrous to excuse the massacre of thousands of idolatrous brethren–many of whom were merely guilty by association or proximity–as the result of the bloody times. Moses had an individual violent streak that was pretty atypical even then, and his bloodthirst in the above instance was inexcusable. Ditto the celebrated war crimes of Joshua.
It is not correct to claim that the Ten Commandments constitute the only key instructions to Jews in the Pentateuch. In the books of the Law, death is legislated for many nonviolent offenses that aren’t covered by the Decalogue.
I wish you wouldn’t overlook significant offshoots like the Sufis or Bahá’í who value the source texts (of multiple religions) but remain peaceful.
Yes, it’s a religion, despite your worries and (perhaps) fixed contempt for all but a few, whom you characterize as quasi-apostates for not being violent zealots.
The alliance you say you fear can’t make it very far off campuses, I don’t think.
I think we know one another’s current views on most of these matters now, and I appreciate your knowledgeable perspective, which I find to be well-reasoned and somewhat persuasive. I’ve been dismayed when trying to read the Koran on multiple occasions, once recently–didn’t get very far. Then again, many have had the like experience with the Judeo-Christian scriptures. I hope you have a good weekend. Please take the last word here if you like.
Hallelujah to that!
From – The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science, August 2014:
‘Last night, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the author of Infidel and Nomad and a critic of Islam, spoke at Yale University. While the event itself went relatively smoothly, her presence wasn’t without conflict. More than 35 groups — including, to my disappointment, the Yale Atheists, Humanists, and Agnostics — signed an open letter last week expressing their disappointment in the invitation.’
Who thought ‘cancel culture’ was a relatively new phenomenon?
And “and”
Teeheehee
Now why did the author not say all this out loud during that podcast with Elizabeth Oldfield and Justin Brierley? That discussion turned into a love-in, with little scepticism.
We are creatures of belief. Belief is baked in to how we make sense of the world and the heuristics and interpretations we use. But just because we believe something doesn’t make it true. History and social learning is a process of moving from one set of beliefs to another – hopefully more ‘true’ than the past.
Rationality is arduous and hard. I needs more than just thinking. So the problem with atheism is that while it’s pretty good at articulating us what is not true or not likely, it doesn’t deliver anything to believe in. The closest it gets is humanism, which is the belief in an innate human good – faith in your fellow man – something that gets stretched to incredulity when you get to the killing fields of communism and fascism.
That creates a gap. And it creates a yearning to find a belief that fills the hole. Ayaan has put Christianity there. Others will fill it with political ideology or nationalism and ‘destiny’. New spiritual leaders, or even cult celebrities might fill the hole.
For me, the only observable principle of the universe is that we are all food for something else (literally and metaphorically). That means strive to be better food, so the things that I feed, and that are going to use the energy I give them, are better off for my part in their chain.
Nicely put. To expand on a cliché and bring it closer to gross earth: You are what you eat. And other beings, or the Earth itself, will at last eat what you are–the material part at least.
I don’t find the need to believe, I never have. I find nature has enough miracles and wonder to keep me going.
Brilliant! The best bit is that the closer you look, the more you see!
I can relate to that in large part, Clare. So you agree that a miracle needn’t be supernatural.
Seemingly miracles in nature. Science can explain it’s all evolution but, nevertheless, it still seems miraculous. I’m thinking of sea creatures, for example, that have adapted to change shape and color in an instant, in order to survive.
Yes. And while there’s a valid dispute about the definition(s) of “miracle”: Has Science pinpointed the original cause of life itself, or will it ever?
I don’t know if it has or not, but it’s like not knowing for sure what happens after we die. People have a great need to fill the unanswerable with god stuff. Not knowing something is unbearable for most people.
This is the first article I’ve read from Alex (I’ve seen him speak live once and online numerous times) but I have no idea how this made it past an editor, did nobody at UnHerd read this before it was published? [Edit: they fixed it]
Looking past the egregious editing issues, however, I agree with his main point. The “Cultural Christianity” movement amongst atheists is largely just a flailing attempt to combat the unforeseen consequence of the atheist movement, namely, the old religions being replaced by new pseudo-religions based on social and political ideologies.
Also, that Jordan Peterson bit was spot-on lol
I believe the distinction is between religion and faith. I have only known one person of true faith in my life and it was simultaneously terrifying and inspiring in its surrender. Those of us who are otherwise religious are always wrestling with God (to quote Peterson).
My conservatism is rooted in Roman Catholicism so I don’t really care either way if Brits are pumping up the right-wing values of evangelical American Protestants.
However, I have little tolerance for contemporary Roman Catholic politics either as while they have always merged too easily into communism, in France we see this heathen alliance between their Left and Islamism which they claim is entirely compatible with a Roman Catholic republican culture.
The British Left too is post-Protestant but in rather an uncritical way presumably because secularism has never taken hold in the civic realm. They have taken on social liberalism as a byproduct of the Reformation (and largely evolved by the American cousins) but their Trotskyite wing seems wedded to gender transhumanism as well as this alliance with the Islamists.
I think that last paragraph is an interesting appraisal of the genealogy of public morality in Britain but with one significant caveat
Social Liberalism as a byproduct of the Reformation may be a fair diagnosis of the American experience, it being largely built on liberty of conscience and fissiparious presbyterianism but it does not quite correspond to the social history of religious life in the United Kingdom.
Here we have (or had until the 1960’s) a very assertive and self confident form of magisterial protestantism. The established church had control of education, public decency and the moral tenor of public life.
The 39 articles, the creeds, the ordinal and the formularies of the church of England are legal documents which form part of the constitution of the United Kingdom.
Nice article (though in serious need of editing), and great to see another quality author writing for Unherd.
I haven’t watched the debate and probably won’t get round to it now what with the Euros and everthing, but can someone tell us if Hirsi Ali’s recounting of her personal experience bore any resemblance to the one that Dutch TV proved was a fiction, a scandal about which she was forced to resign as a Dutch MP? Thanks in advance.
I think this article has sone editing errors. There’s a whole section that has been repeated.
Did anyone notice how poorly the article was edited?
This is totally back to front head over heels. The core problem with ‘Political Christianity’ today has for over a century been the spin off called Communism and its still extant neo Socialist cousin. All its central tenets – a pre-ordained sense of ‘Progress’, equality and universalism, and (as perfected by failed priest Joseph Stalin) the convenient top down rule of the sheep by chosen elevated Apostles or Elect. The equality cult is at the zenith of its destructive powers in the UK. You have totally missed the point!!!
“It transpired in Brooklyn that her conversion, which at first appeared mostly political, was more a result of her personal battle with nihilism. This is hardly going to convince anybody else to become Christian, but such personal experience isn’t ever supposed to.”
I think that the opposite is true: the personal experience of others is actually more powerful than any argument.
In the line of arguments, though, I wonder what the author would make of the following line of thought:
1. As the author notes, Ayan Hirsi Ali seems to have flourished as a person thanks to her newfound faith. She is a better functioning human being.
2. In this improved version of herself, she has an experience of something greater than herself, which she didn’t have before.
3. She experiences this as real. It could be argued that this is just a subjective experience, and has nothing to do with “real” (factual, demonstrable) reality. But then we’d have to deal with a the implication that a better functioning human being is experiencing a delusion, whereas a psychologically sick person was actually in tune with reality.
The core of the argument is that an improved or heightened functioning of the mind –which has been scientifically proven to be a result of spiritual practices such as meditation and prayer– cannot lead to a delusion. Specially, not one which doesn’t affect a person whose mind is demonstrably malfunctioning.
Whose mind is in a better state? Who is to be expected to be actually more in tune with reality?
I think she’s in tune with reality and probably always was, but like a lot of people she has a deep-seated need to believe in something because, for some reason, she doesn’t trust her own authority. She needs the voice of an authority outside herself to trust and guide her. I can understand it must have been such a sense of relief to surrender to god. She doesn’t feel alone anymore.
That is in essence the key. My problem with religion has always been people who say “You can’t talk to God, only I can do that. However, it’s ok, because I will talk to Him, and tell you what he says”. To me, that is the point where it all goes off the rails.
I hesitate to jump into this debate, having concluded as a young teenager that all the evidence and context is that God does not exist and was invented by powerful men to control less powerful men and especially women. If there was a God, he/she/it would surely have provided some evidence? And the “proof denies faith” response is just an evasion.
I am therefore logically not an “atheist” as there is not a God to be without. I am merely an observer of reality.
I appreciate this will incense many, especially scientists who work with evidence but believe in a deity. How do they rationalise two incompatible world views?
I have for the following now nearly 60 years watched from afar and with horror the suffering and death visited on their fellow humans by religions and their leaders on those who do not share their belief, or worse who just use religion to grab land and other possessions from them.
And with disgust the way politicians especially in the USA claim to be Christians but are the antithesis of New Testament teachings.
Back on topic, I admire Ms Ali’s willingness to address these inconsistencies and incompatibilities, but doubt if she or anyone else will ever find a way to solve the problem of “god shaped hole v hole shaped god”, as it is essentially unsolvable. The hole exists, but the god doesn’t.
“Surely God would have provided some evidence…” But many claim he did, so really the question is “What evidence would satisfy you – and what is the basis you have for thinking your evidentiary standards are the right ones?”
“I am merely an observer of reality…” But even observation is an action in the system, which has effects on the system and the observer. It is a fact of our existence that we are inherently ethical creatures – i.e., all of us think there is something we ‘ought’ to do. There is no neutral position on the field of battle of human existence.
‘I have watched with horror the suffering caused by religion…” But have you not also seen the suffering caused by politics? And by science? And by the arts? And by business? Shall we sneer at politics, science, the arts and business too? The fact that people claiming ‘religious’ beliefs or motives have done terrible things is actually a central doctrine of Christianity, perhaps in fact the primary thing Christ preached against and responded to. No… we must exercise our faculties to decide which politics, arts, sciences, religions, etc. are good for us.
“The hole exists, but the god doesn’t” – When we assemble the jigsaw puzzle and discover a hole in the middle, we look for the piece that fits that hole. If we cannot find the piece, we conclude that we have lost it. The key thing, then, is to determine the shape of the hole, so that we know what piece we are looking for. If you acknowledge your hole exists, what is its shape? That is usually the first step in the path to the “peace that passeth understanding.”
If you know something is a fact you don’t need to believe.
Does one know or believe the sun will come up tomorrow? Does one know or believe his spouse’s words during a marriage vow? Does one know or believe that infinity is a set which contains infinity? Does one know or believe that for years in the prehistoric past creatures wandered about with incomplete nonfunctional eyeballs, as evolution had not yet rendered them functional? Or perhaps knowing and believing are not easily distinguished categories?
Yes, they are.
What if you complete the jigsaw puzzle, and all the pieces are there, in their proper places?
Then we welcome you to the faith!
If I ever completed a “Jigsaw of Christianity”, I think a lot of pieces would be missing, and the hole they left would spell “WTF?
Unfortunately, these pseudo-intellectuals are regressing and appear more like opportunists than true thinkers.
Religions are like past versions of the internet, so rather than using intelligence, education, or dialogue, they think wearing the cross and loudly proclaiming one’s belief means something!
What would stop anyone from doing the same shapeshifting while carrying a big stick?
Regardless, we are heading towards authoritarianism, following one person like Jesus, because god-shaped holes are too difficult to fill with our own intelligence, thinking, or experiences individually or collectively.
We are regressing, and these pseudo-intellectuals are the regressive leaders of tomorrow.
All religions carry certain truths for certain societal development. We all need the following to grow as an individual and as collective society.
· Islam: Practicing body movements 5 times a day, fasting once a year, and helping others (focus on body care and community care).
· Christianity: The logical argument of being born from a virgin or not (focus on logic development and skepticism/imagination).
· Judaism: Principle development, such as understanding what is a rule (focus on principle and moral development/individualism).
· Buddhism: Meditation and mindfulness practices (focus on inner peace and mental clarity/creativity).
· Hinduism: Performing various rituals and yoga for self-realization (focus on spiritual growth and self-discovery/open-mindedness).
· Confucianism: Ethical behavior and fulfilling societal roles (focus on social harmony and moral conduct/collectively).
· Taoism: Living in harmony with nature and the Tao (focus on balance, simplicity, and natural living/earth).
And many others with similar trajectories.
Exactly.
This article is clear
Evidence that Alex O is one of the leading, thoughtful, informed, clear-eyed, honest, public intellectuals of this generation!
Jung on the question, is it true:
It’s interesting how emerging things are quickly cast as ascendant evils – nationalistic govts, the rise of “right-wing” political parties, and new interest in Christianity. It’s as if people are discovering that something is missing in a world of abundance.
They look around and see their institutions failing them – govts that ignore their constituents, schools that are failing to educate the young, the erosion of the rule of law, constant efforts to pit one group against others, etc. Maybe the message here is, ‘We have tried your secular humanism and found it wanting.’ That doesn’t make finding religion a panacea; it just shows that when the status quo is not working, people will search for alternatives.
Perhaps there is a reason why it is called faith. My job is not to make the skeptic believe, it’s to live by certain principles. The question Dawkins asks of Christians can also be asked of atheists, why should it offer anything? Except it does offer many things to the believers. That should be enough.
You assert a one-to-one correspondence between a revival of Christian faith and a rebirth of right-identified nationalism?
Being an atheist isn’t a belief.
When it becomes zealous and preachy enough it most certainly is, even if its chief motive is to undermine or ridicule the beliefs of others. Often even when they do no harm to the individual believer or anyone else–perhaps quite the opposite. The proselytizing unbeliever type.
I am prepared to conduct my atheism in such a way as to not annoy others. All I ask of the religious is that they do the same.
That’s entirely fair from my point of view as an unaffiliated monotheist. If the bar of “annoyance” is not set too low on either side.
Let me put it another way – I would like the religious to not to try to pass laws stopping me from doing things that are contrary to their religious beliefs but not mine (obviously). Some examples would be abortion and voluntary assisted dying.
I’m with you there too. Plus I’m one of those fancy Californians who “identifies as” spiritual more than religious.
I do think there are secular and sensible arguments to be made, for example, against assisted death for a non-terminal 50-year-old that is merely poor and depressed, or against a third-trimester abortion.
But appeals to the Will of the Lord should not hold weight in our time, because no one knows for a provable certainty what that is, not in a way that should be binding for all mankind.
Presumably you’re not the 50 year old depressed person, or the pregnant woman forced to give birth to an unwanted child. So here we have a problem. Mind your own business.
True. But I’m in my 50s and I’ve been clinically, suicidally depressed for multiple long periods of time.
And even if I hadn’t, I would have an entirely valid opinion and vote on what society allows and pays for. Both things absolutely are my business, though not my own decision, correctly so on all counts.
So a depressed 21-year-old? A nine- months pregnant, soon to be birth-mother of twins–no measurable threat to her life–with would-be adoptive parents pleading for a chance to raise the child?
If you answer an easy or self-certain yes to both then we have a unbridgeable gulf, Clare. And I absolutely consider it my business to oppose deadly “freedoms” of such an extreme kind.
In Canada, there have been instances of assisted death being suggested for young people whose primary “morbid condition” is poverty.
I hope you’re not in some sense a “social Darwinian realist” like old Charles Stanhope. (Wonder if he’s passed into the great Pagan Beyond).
Have a good weekend and see you next time.
Last word(s) munificently granted to you.
Yes, I wondered what happened to Charles, what a character he was. A dying breed one hopes.
Using a woman, the expectant mother of twins, with a childless couple needing to adopt, as an example of callous abortion, is not the common case. There are millions of parentless children needing adoption and millions of babies who would be born unwanted to a very uncertain future. How many of the “right-to lifers” will adopt all the unwanted ones and care for them till they’re 18 years old? Be realistic and please do some more reading on the subject.
I tried to commit suicide when I was 21 and I’ve had to have abortions because there was no birth control pill when I was young. Abortion was illegal. A backstreet abortion almost killed me, and that’s only half the story.
My mother killed herself when she was 89 because she’d had enough of bad health (she’d had a leg amputated) and she was lonely and isolated in Australia.
That briefly touches on my experience of suicide and abortion.
What the hell is “spiritual”?So very many people now claim to be “spiritual” and it always comes across as “Holier than thou”
If it always does then perhaps you ought to attempt to examine and clean your own lenses.
Or practice what you preach and mind your own business about a matter of personal faith that wasn’t meant for you. (Yes, you’re allowed to chime in, but that was a bit harsh).
I’ll start: I can be arrogant, preachy, self-righteous, and too fond of the sound of my own voice and typing fingers. I’m also moody and comical much of the time. Other things too, some of them good, in different combinations.
How about you?
I have to admit that things can seem pretty “spiritual” to me to if I ingest sufficient psychedelics.
Me? Irreverent.
Given that you live in America, the VAD thing is less of a problem, as basically anyone can get a gun. That is not the case on most places.
What’s VAD?
I think you have to try to see things from the perspective of someone who believes human life is sacred and precious because infused with these properties by the creator of the universe. If you try to stand in that person’s shoes for a moment, I think you’ll see why most Christians who aren’t playacting their faith regard modern progressivism as a death cult. “Progress” in a godless world always seems to end up with demands for the right to kill and to die. I would suggest that considering why that might be is of ultimate importance.
Perhaps you have to try and stand in the shoes of someone who doesn’t share your views and whose body it is. Please don’t try to control other people with your beliefs. That’s wrong.
Can you stand in the shoes of anyone who has a sincere, heartfelt religious-spiritual faith that is loving and nonviolent?
Give how opiniated and judgmental you seem on many issues, you advocate a lot of empathy and non-judgment for others.
I do too much of that myself, but it’s better than nothing to at least be aware of that. Right?
I find that people are not accepting of my being atheist more so than my being judgemental of them. It’s an issue now that I moved to Wisconsin, as I feared. It was never a problem before. I have no friends here. It’s tribal.
I think anyone who wants it can assume the moral authority to defend physical survival. Even Camus was able to come to the conclusion that death is as absurd as life so, faced with equal absurdities, one might as well not hurry from one to the other. You can do whatever you want, of course, and no one can stop you but what I’m suggesting is that we shouldn’t be promoting and celebrating death. You’re not really arguing about a right to die, you can end your life any time you want and no one is going to stop you. What you want is a society that condones suicide and destigmatizes it and provides it in an easy, painless, and clean form for those without the grit to do the dirty work themselves and the religious are stymying you with their tiresome insistence that maybe your life has moral value and isn’t merely a possession of yours to dispose of when you feel you’re done with it.
I’m responsible for my own life. I don’t see the religious rushing to help me survive! I can’t end my life anytime I want to, it’s not that easy.
Have you asked for help? I suspect that if you did and received it, more likely than not someone helping you would be doing it because of a religious conviction. But if you’re just saying that religious people aren’t arbitrarily going door-to-door handing out cash to make your life easier or something like that, of course not. And of course, ending one’s life isn’t easy – it’s not supposed to be easy. It’s one of the only irreversible decisions you can make. It should be as difficult as possible to end one’s life and should remain so, in my humble opinion.
So, you are telling me that I (an atheist) should try to see things from a religious perspective? No thanks. I don’t think it would be possible for me to do so anyway, because religion is founded on “belief”, and I don’t believe. I actually don’t see what the problem is. If a religious woman thinks abortion is wrong, she is at liberty to not have one. I for my part am not going to try to force her to. Ditto with VAD. If you want to hang round and suffer when you have a painful terminal disease, be my guest.
I’m suggesting that you, an atheist, ought to try to see the world through the eyes of someone who believes human life has ultimate value to the extent that to claim you can kill yourself because you own your own body is perverse. A person who believes life is miraculous and to kill an unborn child for anything but the gravest threat to the mother’s life is murder. Who views the culture that celebrates when someone opts for VAD as we’ve seen in Canada as grotesque. Try to imagine being such a person and then try to look at people who profess to believe the things you do through that person’s eyes. How would you look to such a person?
I suggest you read Viktor Frankel’s Man’s Search for Meaning sometime. He, a psychologist sent to the Nazi concentration camp system, made it a mission to talk men there out of killing themselves. They said the same things you said – “What do I have to expect from life anymore?”, “Why should I continue to suffer?” – and Frankel would tell them, maybe you have nothing more to expect from life but life may have something more to expect from you. That’s the way the obligation runs if there’s going to be any meaning or purpose to this life. We have to accept that we don’t know when our task here is done or even, perhaps, what that task is. Otherwise, if we’re just here for us and our own convenience, you can sit around and plan how to pressure a pliant government into enshrining more of your supposed rights to kill yourselves and your children when your lives become inconvenient into law.
I believe in the right of everyone to follow the religion of their choosing. I also don’t have any particular problems with the teachings of Jesus the Man, which strike me as being particularly enlightened (although I do not think him in any sense “divine”). However, I believe Christianity has had precisely zero merit for the last almost-2,000 years of its existence. That being the case, I don’t think it is practical for me to see the world through the eyes of a Christian. However, if I chose to end my life at some stage (whether via VAD or some other means), I respect your right to think my doing so “perverse”. Just don’t try to stop me.
I promise you, I won’t try to stop you, although I might attempt to talk you out of it if you happened to consult me before committing the final act. Any suicide prevention hotline would do the same. I hope – I was going to say “pray” – that it never comes to that and you have many healthy years ahead.
Oh bla, bla.
Exactly. I would bet Vito has neither experienced an unwanted pregnancy or a chronically painful, debilitating disease.
You’re right about the pregnancy.
Thank you, Martin. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Exactly!
I just speak for myself. And proselytizing is the last thing I do. For one thing it’s pointless. People have a need to believe, they cling to beliefs for deep-seated reasons. It serves them, so why should I try to take that away if it doesn’t hurt me directly?
Yes, I don’t see you as a militant or “evangelizing” atheist. But you adopt quite a mocking or condescending tone toward believers and seem not to make the same effort at empathy and understanding that you advocate for you and those on your side of the divide; a divide that is to some extent concocted (no one knows for a provable certainty, yea or nay, not one of us).
Speaking for myself, I have a great deal of empathy for Christians. I imagine how hard it would be to haul all that baggage through life, and periodically wail “how can God let this happen”. I honestly don’t see why they make things so hard for themselves.
I do know one of those. She was always defending her belief in atheism because she wasn’t really sure!
With reference to Tom Holland’s book, you will find the subject of the relationship between Christianity and the development of European secular society in more detail in ‘Inventing the Individual’ by Larry Siedentop – which incidentally, was published three years earlier.
I’ve been a devote Christian all my life and am pleased to call Ayaan a sister in the faith. Does she believe enough is what the writer asks. Mark 9.24 has the answer. “I believed, help my unbelief”. Atheists can howl at such Grace. We call it amazing.
Beautiful & true – thank you!
There’s no indication in the Gospels or the Epistles that faith in Jesus of Nazareth was meant to create a Christian civilisation or Christendom.
The faith is not, as C S Lewis put it, a short cut to the nearest chemist’s shop. It is not a cure for social ills, nor a bulwark against entities that are felt to be threatening.
Jesus’s parable of the wedding feast has it that it is God who sends out invitations to come to it. Invitations to a wedding remain open until the wedding takes place.
C S Lewis has Aslan say that ‘all find what they truly seek’. If you want to find reasons not to believe in Christianity, you can find them. If you want to find reasons to believe, you can find those too.
The Apostle Paul observed that God does not reveal Himself to the wise.
This article reminds me of Russell Brand’s recent conversion to the faith, something I can’t help feeling is more about worshipping Russell than Jesus
Surely most religions are just ‘cultural’ in the sense that they are a social performance of symbols and collective rituals. The idea of an individual soul wrestling with faith is quite distinctively Christian, and perhaps even post-Luther Christian. You could be a valid Christian enjoying the bells and hymns, while being privately an atheist.
Surely most religions are just cults.
Surely that is simplistic prejudice. Were you raised by angry fanatics or something?
I was raised in England and religion was a non-issue. I was free to make up my own mind. My mother was an atheist out of common sense. I’ve seen enough documentaries on religious cults to see how many of them there are and how easily “belief” can be used to manipulate people, and what evil is enacted in the name of god and love.
I’m an agnostic fully in agreement with Hirsi Ali. She has identified the three groups that are the real danger to our civilisation and if we need to ‘identify’ as Christians to fight against this danger then so be it.
I fail to see why I should be required to lie about being an atheist in order to fight Islam.
Carlos Castaneda, cited in Further Conversations with the Nagual (pdf; 117 pages) by Armando Torre
Having faith is a great force multiplier as radical Islam has shown in the last twenty years. Putin use Russian Orthodox Christianity in his project to conquer the world. It’s only to be expected that more and more people in the West will convert as the battle lines are drawn. Choose your poison – Apocalypse Now.
It’s only to be expected that more and more people in the West will convert as the battle lines are drawn. Convert to Christianity? No thanks. I’d rather sleep in on a Sunday morning.
I think the distinction between ‘cultural Christians’ and ‘real’ (?) ones may be largely false, as is the idea suggested here that there are valid (presumably ‘religious’) motives for acceding to Christianity and others (cultural, self preservation, etc.) less valid.
If we look at the regular congregation in one of the more authentic Christian churches who recite the Nicene Creed on a Sunday morning, it isn’t to be supposed that all of them understand and assent to every single clause; many will have reservations and questionings. All are, or should be, on a journey towards greater understanding and acceptance. Few will have got further than poring over the first letter in the book of God’s nature.
Many of them will have been drawn to that place by a wide variety of attractions – music, ancient buildings, desire for company, beauty of the liturgy, etc., etc. Even those arriving by the evangelical route may have ‘come forward and accepted Jesus’ because their friends were doing so or in a moment of fleeting emotion.
And what better motive could there be for seeking to take refuge in Christianity than the discovery taking place widely at the moment that its rivals, such as wokery, often lead to great evils and the ruination of lives.
So in what important way would ‘cultural Christians’ differ from the putative congregation above?
It seems that with Christianity it isn’t where you start out from that matters but what destination you are willing to be led to.
There are those who only believe in a physical universe and those who believe in a physical universe and a non-physical (spiritual) universe.
What are now labelled ‘Christian principles’ long predated ‘Christianity’, which selected, collated, edited, amended, codified and put a brand name on them. That brand name has since been commandeered by innumerable franchises, whose main aim is not to promote ‘Christian principles’, but to promote the profitability and powerbase of its franchise. When did a Pope, the CEO of the first and largest global franchise, ever put ‘Christian principle’ ahead of protection of the interests of his franchise? As for the ‘god shaped hole’, it’s no more than the craving for sugar or the addiction to nicotine fostered by other franchises. Indoctrinated with a ‘need’ from the cradle, as Ayaan was, it’s inevitable that she has to satisfy it somehow. The failing of rationalism – atheism is simply an outcome of knowledge, reason, and intelligence – is that is has yet to identify and promote a way of working towards a future for humanity, possibly the only intelligent lifeform in the universe. And one which might provide the flag around which rationalists can rally and stand against religions and other ideologies, the forces of unreason.
I think it’s great that she is willing to believe in the truth of Jesus Christ. By doing so, she has entered a new world. A new way of living! I went through something similar. Perhaps my journey started with the proposition in the AA Big Book,”either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is, or He isn’t. What was our choice to be?” (4th ed., p. 53). It was like a koan for me. If there is a God, then anything is possible! Nothing in the Bible is out of bounds and it’s all point toward God. Until you make that choice, it’s not going to make any sense. I finally made that choice to believe. My journey has led me into the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Ancient Church. A church that has clung to the Truth as it was revealed by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.
You can only bring ‘god’ into the equation if you limit your frame of reference to a religious text, in the Christian sense to the NT. Step outside that, and the parochial, man-made, essence of the beliefs, and the debate around them, become glaringly apparent. The Christian revelation and message would have been, by several orders of magnitude, the most momentous event in the whole of human history. So why would an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient ‘god’ set it in a remote place and time, and make such a hash of it? And the authors of the text, and their inspiration, show not an iota more knowledge of ‘creation’ than any other denizen of the time and place? And place humanity on a remote planet, eking out a temporary and precarious existence, after numerous failed prototypes, surrounded by an unimaginatively vast, and redundant, universe, taking 14 billion of our earth years, to do it? And so on. ‘God moves in mysterious ways’ just doesn’t cut it.
Aren’t you confusing size with importance?
Size is always important, she said smiling.
There can be more than one rational way to come to a conclusion. For someone to see that things hold together, that there is meaning, in a way that atheism can’t account for, is a perfectly logical reason to reject atheism.
And if someone believes western rationality and values are the best paradigm that has presented itself to humanity, and Christianity is the origin and metaphysical basis of that set of ideas, it would be perfectly rational to look there for the source of truth.
Frankly I think a more interesting question is why so many of the others mentioned find themselves unable to seriously consider it giver their view that it underpins what they believe to be real truths. It’s like they think that you can have real phenomena with causes that are just ideas in someone’s head.
The claim of people like Dawkins, who is certainly among the more naive members of this group, that questions about God are scientific claims was always stupid, philosophically, and worse, scientifically, illiterate.
It is interesting that there has been a revival in Christianity and not in Judaism. The celebrated “Christian ethics“ is really just Jewish ethics. Jesus was a Jew and his ethical background was Jewish. Just like all good Pharisees, Jesus differed with other Pharisees on some aspect of Judaism. For example, he was much tougher on divorce than the Jewish ethics of his time. One problem with Jesus’s take on Jewish ethics is that Jesus expected God to reenter history at any time And therefore Jesus wanted to maintain the status quo. Hence the admonition turn the other cheek and render to Caesar, the things that are Caesars. The appeal of Judaism is that you can maintain the “Christian ethical culture” without having to profess that Jesus is the son of God, Was born to a virgin, was raised from the dead, etc. Instead, you can revere Jesus as a brilliant, ethical teacher and popularizer of Jewish ethics.
Judaism does not generally welcome converts though. Christianity does.
I am not sure I think that Jesus wanted to maintain the status quo, or even the early Christians. It’s more that they see that transforming society, insomuch as it’s possible, happens through transformation of the soul. The working out of the basic principles of Christianity, over time, is what will bring us closer to a just society.
“It should be no more an insult to say that Hirsi Ali’s emotional struggles are irrelevant to the question of God’s existence than it would be to say to say that scientific observations are irrelevant to the study of Keats.”
I’m not sure this is quite right because the quality of attention affects what shows up, which is why to become a scientist is akin to an initiation rite, so you not only know how to do it but are (religiously) committed to that way of knowledge.
The problem we have, therefore, is in part the split between the two cultures, and a culture divided against itself will fall, to almost quote Jesus.
A scientific mindset forces Christianity through an evidential sieve, the affective through an experiential one. Hence the impasse. Though if you read the Biblical accounts of the extraordinary events of Easter Sunday, say – which on the face of it are internally inconsistent and presented in mixed modes including as fact, as individual reaction – I’d argue that something not entirely unrelated but more basic is going on: a prompt to shift the quality of your attention entirely.
Conversation, in other words, is not merely a change of opinion, but a transformation of perception. And then seeing what shows up.
I think this is Tom Holland’s basic mistake. He depicts Christianity as an ethical revolution when, really, it is a perceptual one. Lose that, risk a Christianised culture war and will-to-power.
As a professed agnostic, I’m happy for anyone finding a “spiritual way” that satisfies them, insofar as it doesn’t involve killing others in creative ways, as religions have tended to enjoy doing.
I’ve heard plenty of testimony from people of various faiths about their personal relationship with their god, but have never seen anything to convince me that any of the religions are anything more than man-made attempts to explain something that by its very nature cannot be explained or understood by humans.
I’m open to the idea of a creative force of some kind, but as soon as we start getting into proscribed foodstuffs and rules about fields and hairstyles, along with moral codes that seem primarily about protecting the power structure that existed at the time of writing, I generally fall off.
I don’t think atheists like Dawkins understand how they sound when a person gives a heartfelt account of prayer to the Christian God saving her from suicide and restoring her health and sanity to her and then the atheist says, “That’s nice, but can you prove it was really the Christian God and, by the way, do you really believe a virgin could have had a child?” The lack of care evinced for the welfare of the person comes off as antisocial at best and probably the result of a personality disorder. When I was an atheist, I used the aphorism, “The difference between an atheist and an agnostic is that an agnostic gets invited to dinner” quite often as a wry way to explain why people didn’t like me. I’m not sure who would want to sit with Dawkins for three hours and hear him say their beliefs are “nonsense” but I wish them luck.
That’s rubbish. Atheists don’t go out of their way to proselytize every time someone mentions god. Dawkins was in a debate not in his regular life. I would not want to be invited to dinner where I wasn’t welcome. There are plenty of dinner parties where people aren’t interested in discussing god, thank god!
I’ve had a different experience being an atheist and being around atheists after becoming religious but if you have the sense and humanity not to piss in people’s proverbial cornflakes if God’s brought up, you’re one of the good ones.
Indeed I am, As long as they don’t go on about it. If that happened I would probably leave.
They all sound like “lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year, running over the same old ground, what have we found, the same old fears” . Pink Floyd . Tom Holland is a great writer and interesting historian, Dominion was fantastic and so are his other books.
The problem I had was AAH’s inability to speak up for actual Christian theology.
Dawkins was up to his usual ‘cartoon/straw man/religion’ thing with, for example, that Christians believe Adam and Eve were real people and original sin is, accordingly, trasmitted by ‘the sperm’ of Adam, down the line to all humanity. Its complete nonsense but AAH let it go through to the keeper as if it was an agreed point.
I like and admire AAH but I suggest she book-up on actual Christian theology before she seeks to defend the religion in another public forum. Conceding, by silence, nonsense such as this is grist to Dawkins rather silly mill and AAH should not be so willing a contributor to it.
“The kind of Christianity adopted by Hirsi Ali goes further in asserting its truth, but not very much further in its justification.”
Some truths are justified à priori. They are axiomatic. She has declared hers.
Don’t you get it Only matters if it is true- that’s it that’s all.
Big critique: opposing politics and religion as properly non-overlapping spheres is assumed not argued. The political consequences must be present and of legitimate concern for Jesus to be the image of the invisible God … who assumes created flesh in order to die from love for His enemies, to then be crowned as their King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Alistair Campbell’s reputed ‘we don’t do God’ answer is the unquestioned assumption behind all of this. Why are the positive political consequences of following Jesus as the crucified and risen Nazarene inadmissible as evidence indicative of the truth of that belief?
Surely even Dawkins knows that all our preferences – what and whom we like, what we believe, how we choose to act – are decisions, usually made unconsciously. But why not consciously, at least as a start?
Ms. Hirsi’s conversion story sounds very much like that Sherlock Holmesian formula of “Once you eliminate the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the truth”. It may not be palatable at first, to someone steeped in a culture of hedonism, materialism and self-importance, but it’s the height of arrogance to think that a worldview held by the likes of Isaac Newton and Blaise Pascal is “nonsense”, as Dawkins says.
Unherd used to be fun, mainly because of the clarity of its writing. I didn’t subscribe to read the literary output from a badly run provincial university English department. Reading it now is like unraveling a badly twisted ball of wool. I won’t be subscribing
Now look at it this way. How, without God and Judaeo-Christion values, would you justify cheerleading the depredations of the zionists in Palestine?
How without Allah and leftist atheist-Islamic values would you justify cheerleading the depredations of the Islamists in Gaza?
Strange bedfellows you guys make. Leftism, atheism and Islamism but here we are.