When Pimlico Plumbers boss Charlie Mullins announced his plans to make the Covid jab compulsory for his staff, the vaccines minister Nadhim Zahawi described the proposal as discriminatory. Mullins replied that his lawyers, Mishcon de Reya, had assured him it wouldn’t be. Three weeks on, the Telegraph is reporting that the issue has become “the centre of a row in Cabinet”.
As a piece of messaging, “no jab, no job” has much going for it. Like its progenitors “no hard hat, no work” and “no mask, no entry”, it takes an instance of risk-aversion most of us can at least see the sense in, frames it as a value-free universal truth, and adopts the threatening syntax of officialdom to convey its contempt for the public. Add to that the phrase’s enchanting monosyllabic alliteration, as well as the fact that many people will find the idea completely outrageous, and it becomes hard not to see it catching on.
But is it discriminatory? Having an unequal effect that correlates with a “protected characteristic” is not the only way for a policy to be bad, of course. But a claim on those grounds is a nuclear weapon in Employment Law — and a way for employees with less than two years’ service to attack an unfair dismissal — so it’s a good place to start.
The Equality Act says there’s no discrimination if a requirement is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. One such aim might be the requirement in Section 3 of the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 — alluded to by both Mullins and the Telegraph’s Cabinet source — to look out for anyone whose health might be negatively affected by your firm’s activities. As for proportionality, perhaps there’ll be an exemption for pregnant women and Christian Scientists — although presumably not for BAME people, who, for reasons no one has yet plausibly explained, are on average considerably less keen on the idea of this vaccine.
But the trickiest question in the discrimination issue is the same one raised by those who would object to a ‘no jab, no job’ policy altogether: namely, is the increased risk of Covid-harm from unvaccinated plumbers sufficient to justify sacking people for refusing to undergo a medical procedure they don’t want?
Now, if we were only talking about, say, doctors and nurses, there might be a stronger argument for compulsory vaccination: the increased risk to others is greater in their case; they’re a small minority of the population; and there are, after all, many other ways to earn a living. Let’s not forget, it has long been impossible for most doctors in the UK to do their jobs without being inoculated against Hepatitis B. But it isn’t only doctors and nurses, and it isn’t only plumbers.
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SubscribeA vaccination prevents a person being made ill from a disease, or it prevents a person from getting that disease at all. Since that vaccinated person is immunised against the disease in question there is no logical reason for them to fear catching the disease. So why should anyone who chooses to be vaccinated fear a person who is not? Why should a person who is vaccinated give consideration of any sort to the question of whether another person is vaccinated? The only reason such a person has for concern about catching the disease from an unvaccinated person is because he himself does not believe the vaccine confers the benefits it claims to confer. In other words he is a fox with no tail, yelling at everyone else to do the pointless thing he has done himself, whose uselessness he cannot look in the face.
A person, be it an employer or anyone else, who has complete faith in the efficaciousness of the vaccine could not justify any interest in whether anyone else he meets has been immunised, other than a friendly one in the well being of a fellow man, now or in the future.
The question is not like the free speech issue, nobody can be hurt by someone else’s choice to be vaccinated or to not be vaccinated. The matter is a simple one about whether some people should be allowed to bully others because they believe they occupy the moral high ground. Since the answer to that question is obviously no, then there is no need for legislation, everything is allowed unless it is forbidden.
You wrote: “…nobody can be hurt by someone else’s choice to be vaccinated or to not be vaccinated.”With all due respect, that is nonsense. Here are just two reasons: 1.) There are quite a few people with legitimate medical reasons for not being vaccinated (e.g. immunosuppression). It is inexcusable to put them at risk for no reason.2.) Unvaccinated people may be viral hosts in which novel mutations may more readily emerge, threatening everyone.
‘ Unvaccinated people may be viral hosts in which novel mutations may more readily emerge, threatening everyone.’
So can many vaccinated people because there is no evidence that the vaccines provide 100% sterilizing immunity.
You got it. This isn’t really a vaccine at all.
1. There’s no ‘This’ for the vaccine, there’s ‘These’.
2. What do you think vaccines are?
Hey, some sense has joined.
Don’t know why I’m getting drawn in.
Arguing with conspiracy people is near impossible. Any facts that disprove their conspiracy theory are just deemed part of the ‘conspiracy’.
The leftwing mob running so much of the West are an extreme example of this – to them ‘facts’ and ‘logic’ are part of the oppressive regime. It’s conspiracy cult rebadged.
“Any facts that disprove their conspiracy theory are just deemed part of the ‘conspiracy’.”
Or they just dredge up some new ‘facts’ and forget yesterday’s pet theory. As with the nanobots (and I’m not equating nanobotters with those who oppose compulsory COVID vaccinations!).
This is not a true vaccine.
Please define what a true vaccine is? And which of the multiple vaccines do you mean?
A true vaccine must have some connection with cows?
🙂 yeap, someone on here defined a vaccine along the lines of “priming the immune system with a broken bit of the virus”. They did this to discredit mRNA vaccines, sadly it also excludes Cowpow after which vaccines are named.
And it appears Jenner’s vaccine may have been based on horsepox anyway!
Confusing comment – explain
The word vaccine is named after Jenners use of Cowpox to treat Smallpox
Ha ha that’s good
A true vaccine gives complete immunity for life. A flu jab is therefore not a vaccine and these are not, either.
What is a true vaccine ?
No vaccine is 100% effective. The closest we have is the measles vaccine that provides life long immunity in 96% of those who have been vaccinated.
An up to date definition :
“A substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.”
Like everything else in medicine “immunity” is a moveable feast – most notably waning with age as the germinal centres shrivel up.
“A true vaccine gives complete immunity for life. A flu jab is therefore not a vaccine and these are not, either.”
RUBBISH
Not quite. Rabes vaccines for dogs and cats, for example, have to be re-given periodically because the immune system forgets. Tetanus is another. Some seem to be for life and some not.
But seems to me it’s hard to make a case for a “vaccine” that confers neither immunity from future infection, nor prevention of transmission to others being other than voluntary.
The antivaxxers (which you might not be…) have latched onto the irrelevant phrase “sterliizing immunity.”
Yes, such immunity is desirable, but not essential for vaccine effectiveness.
It’s a numbers game. If you are vaccinated there will be fewer virions in your body (all the vaccines so far show a reduced risk of getting seriously ill). Fewer virions = fewer units randomly mutating.
seriously, what IS there in this world that is 100%?
It may be ‘inexcusable’, but we do it with every other disease. So we’ve excused ourselves pretty well so far.
How many other diseases do we coerce people into taking experimental ‘vaccines’ for??
That was rather my point?
And that is the problem. Vaccines are overly used and made for every little thing. That in itself is ridiculous. We may as well ask the Big Pharma gods to make each of us a big bubble and we can get in there for life and never need to use our immune systems.
‘Vaccines are overly used and made for every little thing.’
I would hardly class a disease that has taken upwards of 100k lives in the UK a ‘little thing’. Nor are polio and smallpox for which vaccines were also produced.
Or are you deluded enough to think it’s a plot devised by the deep state?
The hysteria and ignorance of the anti-vaxxers never ceases to amaze me.
Likewise, I’m amazed that someone I work with can watch all ninety-odd minutes of Plandemic and find it “interesting”, without bothering to spend a minute or two checking it’s most “interesting” claim – that SARS-CoV-2 was patented several years ago.
The current vaccines will not work on the anticipate hundreds of mutations we can expect from a corona virus .
So “A Vax a Day Keeps the Covid at bay” – is that the idea?
Pity your own immune system trying to work out the difference between an artificial Covid spike protein generated by your own cells and the real thing when and if you encounter it !
Hmm…Best just wipe them all out – so bring on the ” Cytokine Storm”!
I think the whole idea is that our bodies will react similarly to both artificial spike proteins, or parts thereof, and natural versions.
But yes, “A Vax a Day Keeps the Covid at bay” may or may not have been the vaccine manufacturers’ original intention, yet it seems to be the way we’re headed. With half the world not expecting enough vaccines this year, more mutations must be expected, meaning booster shots with ‘tweaked’ vaccines, and a steady stream of profits for their makers.
I think people put far too much power in believing vaccines are going to ‘save’ us from every illness. There are now many medications becoming known to cure this without expecting everyone to take them.
Name 1.
There are several now that improve peoples survivial chance and treatment is getting better, but not massively.
You’re also more likely now to survive a car accident with modern medical care – but personally I still wear a seatbelt and drive sensibly.
She can’t. There aren’t any.
Untrue ( see above)
Both Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine are now accepted at international level as having very good results.
So there are two for you.
Hydroxychloroquine has been trialled and found to be ineffective.
Why take drugs rather than vaccine though?
Vaccines specifically prime the immune system for one virus.
If you’re worried about vaccine side effects be very, very worried about the drug side effects.
I wouldn’t take drugs unless I was hospitalized with a serious case of this virus. And only those with the virus would need the drugs on a short-term basis vs an experimental vaccine for which we have no knowledge of its consequences.
What knowledge do you want?
Multiple trial stages that have rejected numerous vaccine candidates (as we have)?
Or 10 years of hard evidence? Even then you can say what will the effects be like after 50 years?
testing and trials continue for another 2 years. It took 2 years to find the problems with the sars covid vac that caused narcolepsy – then there is a 2 year study on the effects. I’m happy to wait for that first
Elizabeth, a few weeks ago you were claiming on Unherd that we don’t need vaccines, we just need Vitamin C and zinc. Is that still your position? If so, that says it all.
I absolutely agree with you Elizabeth and I just posted my comment before I saw yours!
1. Ivermectine doesn’t have strong side effects. No need to say about vitamins, zink, quercetin etc.
2. The drug/vitamin/microelement treatment will be used occasionally when a person gets ill. A vaccine alter your immune system permanently!
3. Our immune system is a finely tuned and a very complex mechanism that constantly fights for us. We shouldn’t not touch it without an extreme need, we should not abuse it – or you can brake it! If abused, it can start attacking our own body or won’t recognise the virus it was “primed for” the next time we meet it and we might get really badly ill from it. No Covid-19 vaccines were studied for long-term effects!
NB! I am not using any biological or medical terms here, do your own search and study the subjects if interested. You will be amazed by the complexity of our immune system!
And of course, someone like you, need to be insulting when someone has a different view. Vaccines have done lots of damage to people over the years too. But you would never want to read those reports, would you?
Calling people “stupid” suggests you know nothing about these vaccines – so look in the mirror !
Try researching and playing the known ‘facts’ like an adult, not childishly abusing the person who disagrees with you – where are your vaccine “facts”?
Being cautious about an experimental new vaccine is not the same as being antivax. I’m in two minds and try to understand both sides.
I think there are some key points you might be missing here:
1) What happened to “flatten the curve”? As the disease spreads throughout society, so does herd immunity. If you add all of immune people to let’s say 50% more of the population who decides to take the vaccine, you already have a stronger herd immunity that will grow further even faster, therefore protecting the “class of people” you mention. This also tackles the usual argument of making vaccine mandatory in order to prevent hospitals from overrunning with covid patients.
2) People often mention the possibility of spreading the disease even after immunization (natural or from the vaccine), but how large is that number? From all the studies, it is tiny. And so is the possibility of getting covid twice. People tend to be alarmed over the news because they tell moving or scaring stories, but all the studies show this number in so tiny it doesn’t pose any threat. And if a new stronger variant arises, our vaccine might be useless.
3) The size of this “class of people” matters. How many are we talking about here? Do you force a new medicine on millions due to a hundred that can’t take it? It doesn’t seem to add up.
4) You may think people are stupid or easily scared, but their uncertainty is not purely based on misinformation. Let me mention two official informations:
– This is a new technology for humans for which we simply couldn’t test long term effects. Such is the case that the vaccine developers do not take any responsibility over possible side effects.
– The FDA and other health agencies provided an emergency authorizations for the vaccine. According to the official FDA website, this means they may “allow the use of unapproved medical products” for emergency cases such as this one.
5) Why are we discussing whether to force vaccines on people or not? I think the discussion, especially from politicians, should be around how to regain people’s trust on vaccines and our health institutions. This is the longer, more difficult road one that demands more transparency, accountability and open dialogue. If you add mandatory vaccines to the possible threats on freedom of speech you a have a recipe for antagonism
To be clear: I am actually not an advocate for compulsory vaccines in most situations (not the covid vaccine). Perhaps I could posit an imaginary disease that would justify compulsion, but that is not the issue here.
I don’t like compulsion – but I dislike bad arguments just as much.
You’re right that herd immunity will be more likely as more people are exposed to the virus. But remember – herd immunity is probabilistic, just like risk.
You’re right, there is no absolute guarantee of safety. But, millions of people have been vaccinated with these vaccines already, with no significant side effects. And vaccines are not completely new technology. The risks of serious bad outcomes with the vaccine are far lower than the risk of either choking to death while eating or being killed in a car accident.
I agree with you and I will take the vaccine, but the issue in question is whether it should be mandatory or not for everyone. I’m just pointing that people who don’t feel safe shouldn’t be forced to do so. It is a matter of trust, which is so damaged they will refuse taking a vaccine despite making sense from a risk assessment perspective.
Also, the technology was already used in other animals, but these are the first mRNA vaccines to be licensed for use in humans.
I could not have conveyed it better myself. Alison. I have said the same in the past. If you are vaccinated then why must someone else be? It absolutely must be free choice. And this ‘vaccine’ is not truly a vaccine but rather an experimental injection as they have not had the time to properly assess it. So people definitely need to have free choice and not let employers and institutions declare it mandatory.
At this point this comments section is totally hijacked by the swivel eyed anti vaxxers.🙄
Those who oppose the vaccine are mostly quite stupid people who do not understand clinical research or virii.
Give us you expert account of the vaccines in question then George.
Educate people to your elevated level!
Or very clever people who do, one is tempted to say! But none of that is what Ms Houston is saying. Read it again
You use the word “stupid” often George, oh pinnacle of judgement and learning.
In debate it is better to have good manners aND not CALL PEOPLE STUPID BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH YOU
In debate it is very bad manners to call people stupid because they don’t agree with your point of view.
very bad manners to shout, too – inflcts your issues on passers by…
I hadn’t realised that the plural of virus was virii.
It isn’t.
In the original Latin I think it would be virus and as an adopted English word I’d think it would be ‘viruses’.
‘virii’ cannot be right because that could only be the plural of ‘virius’, not of ‘virus’. Moreover, as any fule kno, both 2nd-declension and 4th-declension Latin nouns can end in -us, but the plural form is different. One servus, two servi, but one virus, two virus.
I sometimes wonder what the plural of Alan Clark’s ‘bolus of w@nkers’ would be. This happens mainly when I’m not very busy, like now.
Perfectly explained, thank you.
I’ll have to think about AC.
Virii… get your hand off it!
https://english.stackexchan…
The vast majority of people in this country seem quite happy to accept “the vaccine” (actually the Oxford/AZ and the Pfizer are quite different entities, but never mind that for now). Do they have an informed understanding of clinical research and virology? Of course not. They just trust what they’re told is necessary and good for them, and they may fear the consequences of disobeying the consensus. Does that in itself make them scientific experts? Labelling people “stupid” who ask a few questions and want to know more before consenting to this novel untried medication isn’t helpful or rational.
But it’s not a case of “ask a few questions” usually, it’s a case of “I have some spurious nitpicks which are not based on anything factual or rational and I demand these be taken as seriously as your so-called facts”.
If it was genuine questioning, then real answers may satisfy, but they seldom do.
That’s a wildly sweeping statement George – what actual evidence do you have to back it up? It sounds more like prejudice to me.
If you believe you know the “real answers” then well done – the actual researchers are still examining and testing the effects on humans and the efficacy of these unprecedented treatments – there’s still a fair bit of uncertainty as recent news stories have shown.
Look, if you are genuinely just wanting to be more informed then good for you. Go for it, learn. However the growing number of crackpots (who are already convinced vaccines are literally the devil) hide behind such rhetoric as well. They’re “just asking questions” but they have already decided.
If that’s not you, great. More power to you.
Australia has the option of taking its time evaluating these vaccines. It’s taking it for a reason.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/08/why-the-delay-the-nations-waiting-to-see-how-covid-vaccinations-unfold
“we’ve never used this type of vaccine before, so we have to do our darnedest to do the surveillance to check that it’s well tolerated.”
Precisely. Well put.
These vaccines aren’t exactly untried.
I respectfully disagree – I wouldn’t call a vaccine that has been developed and rolled-out in less than a year “tried”…..especially since the demographic currently being vaccinated were not part of the official 3 month trials. According to Pfizer their trials run into 2022/2023 so technically the roll out is part of the trial phase. It’s been sent to market for emergency use and for that reason the Pharma companies are exempt from legal responsibility……I don’t know, that doesn’t sit well with me (being a scientist, albeit a geologist). Under normal circumstances I am 100% pro-vaccine and have specific vaccines needed for travel that I took without question, my children are fully vaccinated and get their boosters as required but until there is data on long term effects (after a handful of months there cannot be) and they actually know if it helps curb transmission, I will kindly decline and decline on behalf of my children.
Hear hear!
Try me.
Could you share your research into those who oppose the vaccine? I assume you didn’t just make that up?
What about Clinical Trials?
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728?term=pfizer&cond=covid-19&draw=2
“this comments section is totally hijacked by the swivel eyed anti vaxxers”
Not totally, but I know what you mean!
Isn’t it funny how nobody mentions nanobots in vaccines nowadays? Have they snaffled a few vials and searched in vain? Or did they know all along the nanobots existed only in their fevered rantings?
I find your comment rather puerile. Those who speak against coerced vaccinations as in the context of ‘no jab no job’ are not necessarily ‘anti-vaxxers’ for goodness sake.
See my comment above. I should have made it clearer that it was an aside, an observation separate from this particular debate.
I think scepticism about these new vaccines is somewhat justified, though less so as time passes, and I don’t hold with coerced vaccinations.
Yes, let’s paint people who are cautious about an experimental new vaccine with the same brush as those who believe Bill Gates is sending robots into your bloodstream.
I didn’t mean to equate the two. It was more of an aside. A few months ago, I encountered drivel about nanobots in vaccines almost daily. Now, the same people (and I’m not thinking of anyone here – I only came across Unherd recently) have gone quiet about that idea. I wonder if they ever bothered finding out, or if they knew all along they were spouting nonsense.
But I agree, we won’t know for sure about any long-term effects of these vaccines in the short term. I’d still have any of the main ones tomorrow if I could.
Er, except that “Elizabeth W” is someone who’s obsessed with Bill Gates (I’m not sure what she thinks abut the robots, though).
No, the nanobots exists, but they’re programmed to erase any memory of their existence from the minds of those who’ve taken the vaccine and to make those people think they’re more intelligent than others. Yes, Ian, that’s irony.
Sarcasm that isn’t it Alanis? Dont ya think?
People nowadays seem unable to take a little teasing which makes me see why so much comment today is so dull in comparson to the past when the likes of Auberon Waugh and Nancy Mitford made British journalism the most entertaining in the world. I am myself sceptical about this fast food vaccine cooked up in months and imposed on an unquetionng public apparently pleased to be sheep but if anyone wishes to call me a ‘swivel-eyed anti-vaxxer’ so be it.
This who say “swivel eyed” usually have the most menacing., illogical “swivelled eyes”of all Angela!
Read those two posts again. This time, try to understand them. Clue: it’s not to do with vaccination
Is it anti-vaxx to not blindly accept everything you’re told? Some vaccines are more effective than others and some have more side effects, just as some diseases are more of a threat than others. Some vaccines are bundled up together simply because it is cheaper and more convenient for the authorities to do so. There are also many conflicts of interest at play.
I have a strong, healthy body and have confidence in it to fight many illnesses. I do not take antibiotics or any medicine without very good informed reason. I would strongly object to any Government forcing me to take any medicine and it is not something anyone should expect living in a Western democracy.
Great! I am happy to hear that finally somebody defends healthy people whose immunological system can overcome viruses, especially when they are mortal in IFR=0.6%.
And if you get ill despite your beliefs, you’ll be taking a bed in hospital, and someone like the close relative of mine who has cancer will be bumped off the surgery list in order to save your life.
Both Trump and Boris fantasised about how Covid was no big deal……. then took up a hospital bed.
Don’t go there, because we “swivel eyed” anti-vaxxers will blow your argument clean to hell, because we are not stupid, or thick, we are well researched, and if you were too, you’d realize that you don’t need a vaccine for any virus, despite what they are telling you. I will make this absolutely clear to you. It is a crime against humanity to enforce mandatory vaccination, as per every single human rights law ever written, and requires “informed consent”.
Yours is the only ‘swivel eyed’ comment that I’ve seen so far.
There is a heck of a lot of name-calling and dismissive ad-hominem ‘arguments’ on this forum by the ‘non-mainstream’ as well! You often can’t make any nuanced point without someone making assumptions, usually erroneously, and jumping down your throat. I do agree though that ‘swivel-eyed anti-vaxxer’ isn’t the most constructive term! I think it
was provoked by the comment that the vaccine was ‘experimental’, not truly a vaccine, and had not been assessed, which is not in my view the case.
Anyway this is a side argument and rather muddies the water of the extremely good argument made in the article that taking a vaccine in a free society should be a matter if choice. And indeed employers already hold a huge amount of power over their employees as to what they do including in their own time, without adding to this.
If a householder or other colleague fears a plumber infecting them with Covid, then of course they themselves can take the vaccine.
Ah, so there’s a link between anti-vaxxers and the right-wing fringe. Thanks for confirming.
Because vaccines only work if enough people take them!
Measles was virtually eradiced in the UK until false rumours spread about the MMR vaccine back in 2003. Then enough people in South Wales stopped taking it for a severe outbreak to occur. It took years of painstaking effort before Andrew Wakeman was finally stuck off. By then 1000 of kids has suffered horrible illnesses, including death.
Please think of others.
As George Orwell said:
Some people are pacifists. But a pacifist only exist because someone else chose to fight on their behalf.
But the point remains if you take the vaccine you will be protected and if you refuse you will be at risk
Exactly right and a corollary of the whole thing, the whole virus thing, is being played out right now: no virus remains static, therefore no vaccine remains specific, therefore there never really is a vaccine for ‘this’ virus.
Generally true. Currently true for Covid quite clearly.
Less true in the past for Polio because it mutated more slowly.
Interesting to note that according to Sunetra Gupta and friends at https://collateralglobal.org/
polio’s virtual abolition has been stopped and reversed thanks to the interventions imposed on the dumb, sheepish stupid public by the dumb stupid, dictatorial, domineering senseless politicians.
here’s a new resource : https://covidhonesty.com/
Maybe they’ve read too many anti-vax articles and thought there might be a serious risk from the vaccine, but they decided to take it anyway, whether because they thought it was best for them (on balance) or for other reasons. From that perspective, the people who do not get vaccinated look like free riders (assuming the vaccine reduces transmission – if it does not, the issue does not arise). Your argument makes perfect sense, but for that. I say this as someone who does not support making vaccination compulsory.
Ditto “could not say it better myself.” This is the crux of the matter, and shows where attacks on our personal liberties are being aided by bad and confusing science.
Furthermore, just by the way, many have pointed out that the new RNA shots are not actually vaccines at all but are gene treatments/therapies. So any strictures that **may** apply to genuine vaccines do not apply anyhow, as the terminology is in correct and misleading.
This is also false, just so you know. It’s nonsense.
It’s not quite nonsense. It’s certainly an alarmist description, because “population level gene therapy” has a certain eugenicist ring to it. But mRNA treatment is so new, so untested and so different to what we have previously known as “vaccines” that it makes sense to potentially define them differently from a legal perspective. I would argue it sits halfway between a vaccine and gene therapy, if you compare the definitions.
But as with everything Covid related, it has been rushed through without proper consultation. Personally as a 39 year old, I won’t be getting one, and nor will my pre-school aged children. If I was 79 I probably would.
They don’t constitute “gene therapy” was my point, and yes it is alarmist.
I’m afraid I don’t believe that these things have been rushed through without proper consultation. The Chinese vaccines have, Sputnik V too, but the western vaccines have been tested fairly cautiously. I would urge you to at least try and get one of the non-mRNA vaccines if those are of such a concern to you, like the Oxford/AZ one. As a 39 year old you’re not necessarily at much risk of death from the virus, but you are currently in the peak infection group and thus likely to spread it.
I appreciate your encouragement and I have no great fear of any of the vaccines. mRNA seems like good tech when put to the right purposes (this is not it).
I simply judge my risk of a side effect as higher than my risk of negative outcomes from covid19, both being incredibly negligible. Getting a vaccine, or any other medical treatment, for the greater good does not strike me as morally justified. I also don’t think Sars Cov 2 is even a virus that requires mass vaccination (very low IFR and moderate R0), and it is only being thrust upon us due to global political mishandling of the issue, largely driven by panic.
I will not cover for the politicians. I have not chosen to panic, and have spent far more hours than I care to remember learning as much as I can on all the relevant subjects. I wish you well if you choose to get any of the vaccines. I doubt any harm will come of it. But the precedent of coercive vaccination to cover for political mismanagement of what should have been a mild outbreak is worth taking a stand over, I believe.
That seems a very strange take on morality. The evidence on reduction of transmission through vaccination is still coming in, certainly, but it appears (and is expected) that vaccinated individuals will be less likely to transmit the disease. As the negative outcome of being vaccinated is negligible, it seems that morality would dictate taking an action of no cost and negligible personal risk in order to mitigate severe risk to others.
“Younger” people such as ourselves (I’m 42) are not at much risk of death, it’s true, but some of my peers have had longer term fatigeu-like effects of covid, as well as being laid out by it for a week or so during the initial infection.
I’m not one to say it should be forced either, I think that is wrong.
For sure. The vaccine question is interesting, because we’ve only ever mass vaccinated against things that were fairly equal opportunities type diseases. I’ve been trying to find a comprehensive list of all the things we commonly vaccinate against and their corresponding efficacy rates, but I know here in NZ, it was things like MMR, Hep A & B, Polio etc, which had very high effectiveness like 98-99/100. Then you had your optional vaccines like flu which I would get from time to time, but that had only about 30-60% effect depending on the year.
The crucial point for me is this: Remove the benefit to the vaccinated person, suddenly the ethics change. Then throw in a sprinkling of moral panic, and I think you’re setting up a dangerous precedent for future years.
We also have no idea whether this is going to be a yearly shot or what… that’s the problem with these abbreviated trials. For me, we have not reached reasonable doubt by a long way, and I won’t consent to saying she’ll be right just to get the government out of a jam.
Ah, you have the luxury of being somewhere the question is not quite so pressing! I’m somewhat jealous, and planning to move (back) to Australia in a few months myself 🙂
Yes, government screwups have played a big part in all this, more’s the pity.
Yes people look enviously at New Zealand and our lifestyle, which is fairly 2019, apart from domestic flights, public transport and all the QR codes everywhere. There is a complacency here at our “success” that has shielded the government from criticism, despite their putting out a campfire with a monsoon bucket, with lockdowns and border closures simultaneously, only the latter of which was in their 2019 influenza pandemic plans.
I do suspect though that we’re going to be closed for a lot longer than people were led to believe. Having an “elimination” strategy or zero Covid policy is going to be very tough to forego, even if the vaccines turn out to be as good as hoped. Our isolation is a wonderful gift in a pandemic, but one feels this is only the beginning of this Covid thing unless other countries learn to live with it. Ironically we were probably in the best position to take a measured approach to it via social distancing, having so few cases initially, but now we have created our own idyllic little prison. Wish us luck!
Try 115,000 dead as we have in Britain. Then you’ll be less critical of NZ. Your description of “our lifestyle, which is fairly 2019″ sounds fantastic. Restrictions on flights and public transport, and having QR codes everywhere, is small beer by comparison with the UK.
This is a common fallacy of thinking around vaccination.
Not everyone gets protection from having the vaccine, that’s why we have things like vaccine effectiveness percentages. The current batch of vaccines are around 90-95% effective (which is actually very good!), meaning 5-10% of the vaccinated population will not be immune. Further, not everyone can have the vaccine due to immunocompromisation and various other factors.
And by not having the vaccine, you are not helping bring up herd immunity, which is the real thing that protects us – if most people are vaccinated with a vaccine that gives most recipients immunity, then there are unlikely to be outbreaks, so those remaining unprotected for whatever reason are not at risk.
So yeah, this is just not true. Lots of people can be hurt.
This is true, but we’ve still never forced people to be vaccinated before.
Hopefully peoples sense of self preservation and desire to lower their chance of passing the virus onto their loved ones would be enough. After sanitation and nutrition, vaccines are a driver of longer and healthier lives for billions of people.
Forcing people probably won’t work anyway, and given UK law won’t be allowed as they’ll be huge exemptions of certain groups.
Yeah I’m not arguing for forcing people, I think that’s probably a bad road to go down for a whole bunch of reasons, not least the precedent it sets if the government can do that. I’m less clear about the actions of employers here, I would certainly prefer to know my plumber had had the vaccine, but whether someone should lose their job over it … I don’t know, because they’re making a choice that may cost other people’s lives.
I just find it frustrating when “we shouldn’t make people, that’s government overreach” gets bound up with “and it’s all terrible and the vaccines don’t work and they’ll probably kill everyone and covid’s not that bad anyway”
Good points. Also:
(a) those who are unvaccinated and catch Covid become petri dishes for mutations which, if radical enough, may not be tackled by the vaccination received by the vaccinated
(b) those who are unvaccinated and catch Covid and become seriously ill will end up taking a hospital bed from those with cancer and heart disease (among other conditions). We’re already seeing a massive effect on cancer and heart surgery and investigations from the 30,000-odd Covid sufferers occupying hospital beds on any particular day.
Brilliant!! I’ve been left speechless for decades at the absence of this particular analysis on the vaccine issue. Particularly the case with these Covid vaccines that are claimed will result in reduced symptoms, but not prevention or transmission of the virus.
One real gap here is the small percentage of the population who have compromised immune systems, but there have to be limits to what restrictions can be placed on one segment of the population to limit potential harms to another.
Another piece that’s almost absent is around the multiple benefits of taking greater responsibility for our own health, instead of (only) looking to vaccines to save us. The co-morbidities with Covid are remarkably clear, and you can bet that addressing these would result in a significantly more robust response to most other diseases as well, but we remain willfully in denial of both our capacity and our responsibility in this regard. If we can accept the concept of mandatory vaccination, what’s stopping us from mandating all kinds of actions that would create a less vulnerable population? I don’t support mandating any of it, but I find it disheartening to witness so many selectively grasping to the Pharma lifeline, at the expense of civil liberties, and as if that’s the only one we have at our disposal.
Except that is not true.
There will be a class of people who can not be vaccinated, regardless of their wishes on the matter on health grounds. These unwillingly unvaccinated third parties rely upon the rest of the population to have had vaccines to be protected from the disease, to prevent it getting a foothold in the population.
Every person who choses not to vaccinated based on a personal choice (often on very poor advice or lies or misunderstanding of the science) is endangering those who can’t have the vaccine, potentially threatening their life. However one feels about it, there is surely a conflict between the rights of these third parties to be protected from death via a disease that could be controlled by vaccination and those who chose not to be vaccinated for whatever reason.
Personally I feel the right of the former to be protected from death should trump the rights of people who refuse a vaccination because they read some bad science on the internet or think the Illuminati are out to get them. But I am not a judge so who knows how that case would go?
‘Personally I feel the right of the former to be protected from death
should trump the rights of people who refuse a vaccination because they
read some bad science on the internet or think the Illuminati are out to
get them.’
Well said! What’s wrong with the education system that it is producing these throwbacks to the superstitious peasantry of the dark ages?
Everyone who drives a car threatens the life of a cyclist. As a cyclist, I might feel that the right to be protected from death should trump the rights of people to refuse to be inconvenienced by choosing not to drive–a choice I have made, and which I consider to be so effortless as to disqualify it as a reasonable objection in others.
As is often the case, your argument boils down to: “Do this thing I want you to do, but let me keep doing the things that I want to do”.
Incidentally, 388 healthy under 60 year olds died of COVID-19 in 2020. 955 died the previous year in road traffic accidents.
Not quite right. For a start refusing a vaccine has no utility to the general population other than exercise of that individuals “choice”. This is all well and good if the choice results in no direct harm to other, crack on, but with vaccine refusal you are putting lives at risk.
As dangerous as cars are, and I don’t drive so I can only talk about that in abstract and by looking at the statistics, they do provide utility to individuals and society (though I do think we could all drive less, we may need to climate wise but I will leave that alone)
To make a better comparison, imagine some simple law could dramatically reduce the danger of death to cyclists by cars, a simple law that dose not overly impact upon car drivers, say speed limits or cycle lanes? It would be foolish not to save lives of others by implementing these laws. That is the vaccine.
“For a start refusing a vaccine has no utility to the general population other than exercise of that individuals “choice”.”
Probably not entirely correct.
If you have a population all producing robust immune responses to a viral challenge (a vaccinated population) , the virus will have much less chance to transmit and therefore will encounter far fewer immune systems that will encourage it to mutate, to avoid those various immune challenges = fewer variants.
The argument that vaccinations also produce an evolutionary pressure for viruses to mutate really doesn’t hold water unless the immune response induced by the vaccine is really wimpy – more likely in crinklies and potentially when there is a long delay between primary and boost doses.
Hence all the kerfuffle about the levels of neutralising antibodies with these various vaccines.
As for T cell immunity – this is a bit of a black hole at the moment with Sars Cov 2 however, given the pace and quality of immunologcal research over the last year and the eagerness of governments to throw money at this problem I am sure that voluminous information regarding this portion of the immune response will appear shortly.
My apologies, are you suggesting that refusing a vaccine for reason of choice, does help society as a whole?
My initial reading of your response is pro vaccine, so I do not quite see how I was wrong to state refusal as not helping society as a whole.
I see where you’re coming from Richard, but to be fair, the cyclist chooses to cycle and take the risk. It’s not a very good analogy.
kind of remarkable statement – if by your own choice you put yourself at risk by the behaviour of others as you postulate – then so to does those who “choose” to leave their house. If your statement places the burden of risk on the individual – as society has been run for so far as i can tell, then you are correct. But as you are aware their is a line between our risk, and our agreement for a governing body to mitigate that risk. Forcing a medical intervention on people oversteps the right of the individual by the state.
“388 healthy under 60 year olds died of COVID-19 in 2020″
But vastly more under-60-year-olds with asthma, recovering from surgery, with heart conditions etc have died of Covid, and would be alive today if it were not for Covid. Does that not matter to you?
And why is being 60 or over a reason for allowing people to die from an infectious disease? Those people might have 25 years of life left.
It’s certainly an interesting argument. I’d love to debate it. The right of someone with a weak immune system, whether through age, birth or lifestyle, to prolong their survival at the ongoing expense of the vast majority of the population. Did I just stumble into 2020 UK?
If you can’t have a jab for a medical reason but would like one, am I obliged to get one for you even if I don’t want or need one? That would be a hard sell, at least to me. At some point, Mr Darwin has to poke his head into the argument… But then it’s not too far down the road to eugenics. As I say, it’s a very interesting argument.
I agree it is interesting, though I take issue with the part of your statement:
“…to prolong their survival at the ongoing expense of the vast majority of the population. “
What is the “expense” here? A simple jab, even someone as scared as needles as I am can bare that “expense”. Now if I was asking the population to lose say two years of life expectancy to prolong other peoples lives by ten or twenty…then you have a (frightening) debate.
I suppose the whole circus is I do not believe that the jab has been shown to be harmful in any way so there is no “expense” in my mind. I accept people disagree, I just think they are very wrong.
I think there are some key points you might be missing here:
1) What happened to “flatten the curve”? As the disease spreads throughout society, so does herd immunity. If you add all of immune people to let’s say 50% more of the population who decides to take the vaccine, you already have a stronger herd immunity that will grow further even faster, therefore protecting the “class of people” you mention. This also tackles the usual argument of making vaccine mandatory in order to prevent hospitals from overrunning with covid patients.
2) People often mention the possibility of spreading the disease even after immunization (natural or from the vaccine), but how large is that number? From all the studies, it is tiny. And so is the possibility of getting covid twice. People tend to be alarmed over the news because they tell moving or scaring stories, but all the studies show this number in so tiny it doesn’t pose any threat.
3) The size of this “class of people” matters. How many are we talking about here. Do you force a new medicine on millions due to a hundred that can’t take it? It doesn’t seem to add up.
4) You may think people are stupid or easily scared, but their uncertainty is not purely based on misinformation. Let me mention two official informations:
– This is a new technology for humans for which we simply couldn’t test long term effects. Such is the case that the vaccine developers do not take any responsibility over possible side effects.
– The FDA and other health agencies provided an emergency authorizations for the vaccine. According to the official FDA website, this means they may “allow the use of unapproved medical products” for emergency cases such as this one.
5) Why are we discussing whether to force vaccines on people or not? I think the discussion, especially from politicians, should be around how to regain people’s trust on vaccines and our health institutions. This is the longer, more difficult road one that demands more transparency, accountability and open dialogue. If you add mandatory vaccines to the possible threats on freedom of speech you a have a recipe for antagonism.
I would rather risk my own live than live in an unfree world where one has no sovereignity over one’s own body and health !!
Fair enough, though you already live in that world of course, government s banning consumption of certain substances, telling you what you can and can’t put in your body!
Also your risking other people’s lives, not just your own.
How about risking other people’s lives?
I feel exactly the same. If you are vaccinated why would you fear someone who wasn’t? It just doesn’t make sense. It puts people in a position where they don’t have the right to choose what happens to their body. The vaccines were arrived at too quickly and we don’t know whether their will be side effects. Also, of what is the vaccine composed? I believe there is aborted fetal material in some of them.
Because a percentage of those who are vaccinated are still vulnerable, and the unvaccinated, if they exist in large enough numbers to scupper herd immunity, present a danger in terms of prolonged outbreaks and epidemics.
Oh you’re one of those. Carry on then.
backs off quielty
“I believe there is aborted fetal material in some of them.”
What about novichoks? Nanobots? Illegal immigrants? Bill Gates’ sperm? Chinese communist propaganda?
At the very least, cows – after all, the word ‘vaccine’ surely implies their presence?
Vaccine derives from the practice of infecting people with cow pox so they wouldn’t then catch smallpox. No cows are harmed in the production of vaccines. Hindus can be vaccinated.
You mean James Gillray’s The COW POCK – or – The Wonderful Effects of the New Inoculation was photoshopped?
More like fake news, I would say.
Moderna are talking about adding Nanobots to their product before the end of this year:
Franz Walker, DARPA funded implantable biochip can potentially be used to deploy Moderna’s mRNA vaccine, October 12, 2020 Nanotechnology News.
Not a single mention of nanobots in that article. Hydrogel implants are hardly nanobots, and anyway the idea would be using them to detect infection.
I believe you’re an anti-vax troll. The difference between our beliefs is that I have evidence for mine. Fetal material, indeed!
Ever heard of how and why viruses mutate? Or even disregarding viral mutation, why do you think it took so long for the world to get rid of measles and polio?
Hear! hear! The situation is made worse by the fact that this covid jab is NOT a vaccine by any medical definition of the recent past and the manufacturers claim that it does not confer immunity or stop transmission! Why bother?
Because fewer people will end up in hospital, bed blocking in 2021/22. eople who are unlucky enough to end up in hospital with this disease have to stay longer than your average flu / pneumonia patient.
The majority of bods in critical care right now have no co-morbidities and have an average age of 60 – so most of them are probably still economically active.
See ICNARC report for admissions to UK critical care Sept 1 to date.
The objecive with the vaccinations is to reduce the admissions to hospitals, allowing our lean and mean NHS to get on with everything else.
Well said. Crystal clear. It seems to me that it is fear that drives the need by people wishing vaccination to try to ‘bully’ those not wishing to have it.
How about political expediency, as in vaccines are a panacea for our politicians given the utter mismanagement of the pandemic?
Well, imagine:
a) 50% of people choose not to vaccinate. That would mean, we are all facing another lockdown next winter, because the hospitals would get overwhelmed once again. Those who refused to vaccinate would get just what they asked for, but for the rest of us, another undeserved lockdown, and all the normal medical treatments for everyone being stopped again.
b) Now, imagine 20% of people choose not to get the vaccine. Vaccine efficacy is around 90% for healthy individuals, it is lower for the elderly and the vulnerable, they only get partial immunity at best. We would still have a crisis next winter, also the virus would have enough hosts to further mutate and improve, and it will learn how to better infect the younger ones. Full vaccination restarts again as there would be new strains not covered by previous vaccine. Next round of lockdowns.
c) And, finally, 100% vaccinate, the virus runs out of hosts, so most of problems with new mutations are solved. The future is saved from lockdowns etc.
Which option is preferable for society?
Your option c is highly unlikely before next winter. Much of the world will still be waiting for vaccines, allowing new strains to develop.
Yes, agreed, so to make option c) possible, much as I hate it, international travel restrictions should go on until other countries catch up with vaccination.
You know, in 1646 Thomas Hobbs presented the topic debated here in his “On Liberty and Necessity”. Very enlightening read, which helps to explain why today the East (where necessity for the common good goes naturally above personal liberty) has coped with Covid so much better by all measurements.
Here, we’ve had 14 day quarantine for everyone entering the country, since March I think. It’s clobbered the tourism industry, and affected much else in the economy, but so far, no COVID deaths.
Was it worth it?
Incidentally where is “here”?
It doesn’t matter which option is preferable for society – the only option is what is preferable to the individual. If individuals do not want to vaccinate that is their choice. Society will have to live with the choices of the individual – that is what a free society does
Society where individuals do whatever they like is called anarchy, I think. It normally does not last for long.
Democracy puts in place laws, rules and regulations for everyone to follow to ensure that people act in a way optimal for their common good.
This logic breaks down in practice since the vaccines are not 100% effective, their effectiveness may diminish over time and some have medical conditions which may prohibit them from having them. It thus becomes the case that vaccination CAN enhance the protection of third parties.
Legislation in the UK seems unlikely, not least due to the high proportion of people in favour of being vaccinated.
Alison Houston you state many untruths about the effects of vaccination. Vaccination protects against serious illness true but no facts yet about preventing a mild event from becoming long Covid-19. No facts about asymptomatic carriers, so there is a rational fear of non vaccinated people being carriers. It will a few years before full facts about Covid-19 are known. Until that time as much pressure as reasonable needs to be applied to get people vaccinated, so that pre-Covid life may return.
The truth is that people CAN be hurt by other who refuse the vaccine.
Entirely true. Unfortunately it relies on logic, reason, sense and therefore will be a target for ridicule, denigration, ridiculous ‘refutation’ and will cause you to be attacked by apparently disgusting persons with a penchant for crude abuse.
I feel for. I’m sorry. With there was something I could do.
But I think it is too late.
You’re right …. but only up to a point.
Here are the caveats
1) the vaccine’s immunity isn’t forever and requires renewal other the R rate could agaain climb out of control
2) new strains/variants of cv will need a slightly reformulated vaccine
3) there is evidence that the vaccine doesn’t automatically protect against cv transmission from a non-vaccinated person but instead considerably reduces it’s harmfulness to the vaccinated person
4) there is evidence that the vaccine reduces the power/danger of transmission from the vaccinated person to an unvaccinated person (which would then reduce the infection rate (R) amongst unvaccinated persons)
COVID DEATHS RATE on Feb 15, 2021
(total deaths) : (population) x %
Sweden
12,428÷10,230,000×100=0.12%
Scotland
6,711÷5,454,000×100=0.12%
Tell that to an elderly person.
No. Vaccination isn’t 100% and it certainly does not stop 100% of transmission.
Not true. The unvaccinated covid patient in the ICU bed is denying a cancer patient surgery.
The state already mandates that kids be taught material steeped in trans ideology, with fantastic claims about there being scores of genders. The courts have been involved in enforcing sex-ed teaching against parents’ wishes, such as the high-profile cases in (I think) Birmingham last year.
If the state can enforce ideology, why not vaccines?
For what it is worth, I find both realms of compulsion deeply disquieting.
You make the argument. Of course it is crazy for the state to enforce or promulgate trans ideology. And it is an ideology. Same with vaccines. As for the definition of vaccine, a vaccine makes use of dead viruses to induce the body to produce antibodies. Merriam-Webster Unabridged: “a preparation of killed microorganisms, living attenuated organisms, or living fully virulent organisms that is administered to produce or artificially increase immunity to a particular disease.”**
The RNA shots do not do this. “Vaccine’ is not a general term for any shot in the arm. If you get a shot of vitamins that is not a vaccine. For heaven’s sake. “Vaccine” is not a gene.”
**NB: The CDC is no longer using this standard definition of “vaccine” but now labels as a vaccine any “product that stimulates a person’s
immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease.” Whoa, baby! That is a pretty big difference. I would love to know when the CDC decided to use this new, unscientific definition.
Since you don’t understand science, medicine, or anything else, why do you comment?
Yes Jane-by all means listen to George-clearly the all being, that understands science, medicine and everything else…
…and is employed by the government..?!
They may have changed the definition but the end goal is still the same, ‘…
protecting the person from that disease.’ Therefore, as others have commented, after the “at risk” population have been vaccinated, why the push to vaccinate people who are not at risk? If some “at risk” person who needs a plumber has been vaccinated, why on earth should it be mandated that all plumbers are vaccinated?
Excellent piece. And while I frequently diasgree with writers and commentators at UnHerd I am grateful for the editors’ efforts to promote thoughtful debta.
Let’s be absolutely clear. Compulsory vaccination violates every human rights law ever written, including the Nuremberg Charter. It is a crime against humanity, with NO exception.
It is anything but clear – otherwise there would be no discussion.
The Nuremburg Charter is clear, no matter the discussions of those who are ignorant of it’s content.
How anyone could listen to UKGov after all of it’s monumental c**k-ups is beyond me. We live in the most interesting of times.
Which c**k-ups do you spy? Genuine ones, or ones bravely noticed by Sir Kneel and his trusty retrospectoscope?
Not so retro – in mid-September Keir Starmer was backing the SAGE scientists in calling for a two week lockdown. Boris decried that as “ridiculous” and ignored SAGE but 6 weeks later at the end of October the virus was out of control and Boris was forced to institute a lockdown – of a month, with twice the economic damage and many having died in the meantime. Keir Starmer called it right at the time (not retrospectively) by backing the scientists, and Boris was wrong.
Just one of many mistakes made by Boris, all the way to February 2020 when his first public comment about it was to declare the Government would not allow ‘excessive’ concern about Coronavirus to distract the new, buccaneering Britain he had created. What a tragic joke.
I agree with the point you make, but the issue is far wider – and the C-jabs are a very odd and nonsensical instance to put in play in the first place.
To date, there is no licensed C-jab. All the injectables being used are experimental, and being used on the basis of temporary, emergency authorisations. The ordinary testing phases for the jabs have not yet been completed, and will not be completed until mid- or late 2022. Until the test phases have been completed and the data properly evaluated, there are no hard data on either the jabs’ protective properties or their risks. We simply don’t know. And until then, the jabs have to rank as “experimental”.
Given those facts, a “no jab, no job” rule can hardly be called “proportional”; the proportionality test requires a reasonable level of certainty on the matters being compared and put in relation.
Besides, it is a fundamental element of medical ethics, and human rights, that no person may be pressured to participate in a medical experiment, not even – and especially not – for the “common good”; that rationalisation has been abused too often.
Furthermore, there are quite pedestrian issues of personal data protection. Unless an employer – or any person for that matter – has a legitimate need to have my private health information, and procedures are in place for that person to protect my information under threat of criminal sanction, it is not permitted to ask me for that information, and it not permitted to discriminate against me for refusing.
As you implicitly say, to override that principle, primary legislation is required.
Medical totalitarianism will be no better than any other form – it is freezing knowledge and discussion and people will die in vast quantities from not being able to question authority. You look at our politicians, people one would have little respect for in better times and you shudder at the powers they are arrogating to themselves and the state. About the products they seek to enforce – rushed to the market with entirely novel technologies – we know little.
We do know that 115,000 have died without vaccines, and that vaccines protect against the disease which has killed them.
Set aside that some recipients of the vaccine have died; the larger question is, where does this end? Because it will not end with this vaccine for this virus and anyone who believes otherwise is either sadly naive and grossly misinformed about history. Once the precedent is set, there will be more of the same. The arrogance required of ‘no jab, no job’ is astounding.
Well it is often the same people who demand everyone wear a mask, and now 2 or 3. It helps others to feel ‘safe’. A crock for sure.
Oh, so you’re not just against vaccines, you’re against masks as well?
Amazing.
You are of course correct. But it could just be that you propound an extreme view.
I’m trying to think beyond the story of the moment to its follow-on applications. If that is extreme, fine.
What is the basis for coronavirus vaccination?
How can compulsory coronavirus vaccination be justifiable?
Do some research.
I have done some research Jill.
I’m horrified that a variety of fast-tracked experimental coronavirus vaccine products are being rushed out around the world.
Bill Gates is the leader of this ‘race’ for coronavirus vaccines.* It’s astonishing this software billionaire is dominating international vaccination policy, how has this been allowed to happen?
Now there is an unprecedented plan to vaccinate the entire global population with coronavirus vaccines, against a virus which isn’t a threat to most people.
This is a gigantic experiment, we have no idea what is being unleashed here.
*See for example: What you need to know about the COVID-19 vaccine. GatesNotes, 30 April 2020.
“Bill Gates is the leader of this ‘race’ for coronavirus vaccines.”
Was he behind any of China’s vaccines, two of which, Sinopharm’s and Sinovac’s, rely on tried and tested tested vaccine technology, and can hardly be called experimental?
How can anyone trust Bill Gates? His hand is in every cookie jar. And now his wife is showing up on television telling everyone to take the jab.
You just have to agree with this. Marcus Rashford will be the next one – apologies to US citizens, who might not get this.
Gates’ hand is in every cookie jar – so you think he was behind the Chinese vaccines, I guess. Russia’s too, presumably. Probably news to them.
Nonsense, you’re just trying to deflect from the true conspiracy. It’s all the fault of the Freemasons and the Bavarian Illuminati.
It’s a three-headed lizard actually.
It is really not a hard concept.
The coronavirus (Covid-19) is real, and harmful. We now have vaccines that are safe and effective. If you do not accept those two sentences, I consider you a fool, and not worth discussing this with.
The virus has killed, according to ONS, over 100,000 people in the UK. The measures to suppress it, without which that number may have been 5X as big, have also done massive damage.
The state therefore has a legitimate public interest in eliminating most transmission, which – in addition to almost eliminating serious illness – the vaccines accomplish (once adequate numbers have been vaccinated).
If you have diabetes, and want to refuse treatment, be my guest. It won’t much affect me. People refusing vaccinations affect others.
You are obviously a disciple of the late Dr Joseph Mengele, and a rather obvious male hysteric, particularly when it comes to discussing C-19.
Do you in fact have any Medical qualifications that are recognised in the UK?
Another smug reply. How is this comment relevant?
Why don’t you let Herr Blow speak for himself?
Is your vocabulary so limited you can only think of smug?
Why not self-satisfied or something different?
Or, horror of horrors are you about to flee this forum yet again?
??
Surely even you can do better than that?
Yes, but why? If I say something you will answer with a quote from a long-dead Ancient Greek philosopher to demonstrate that you are a very erudite person.
🤣👊
Call me a fool and not worth discussing with but have you seen trial data about the long term effects from these experimental vaccines that I haven’t?
Only you seem to be remarkably certain about their complete safety.
I agree. There is no known data. And name-calling is not necessary, Joe. We have no data on the short-term and long-term affects of this experimental vaccine. And if this experimental vaccine truly showed that it prevented transmission, and prevents you from getting this virus, then maybe more people would be on board; however, this experimental jab shows neither.
Keep up with the science. I know it’s going fast and that’s hard to get your head round. Best evidence is that the AZ vaccine does prevent transmission.. evidence not in yet on the other vaccines.
I am keeping up with it, thanks for your sarcasm.
“Hard to get your head around” – as you clearly illustrate!
All I know is that most people die within 100 years of taking any vaccine.
“All I know” – well you said it!
Exactly! The other side all abuse and insult their opponents – says everything about their arguments
The end of the Age of Reason is nigh!
The moment you say that 100,000 people have been killed by Coronavirus in the UK you disqualify yourself from being taken seriously. The ONS statistic is for those who have tested positive (they may not actually have the disease) less than 28 days before death. It does not mean they were killed by Coronavirus and we will probably never know how many people were actually killed by this thing.
The method for defining Covid deaths is very questionable, we so need critical analysis of the Covid statistics around the world, re ‘cases’ and deaths attributed to Covid.
Let’s say there’s 66 million people in the UK, and about 600,000 deaths each year, the 100,000 deaths over the past year attributed to Covid need to be seen in that context.
The impact of the growing ageing population also needs to be considered, because everybody dies some time.
There may be excess deaths due to the virus, but also ‘lockdown deaths’, and deaths due to inappropriate treatment, and lack of effective treatment. So many resources went into coronavirus vaccine trials, how much went into treatments, and promoting simple helpful preventatives such as vitamin D? Precious little I suspect…because it was all about promoting the vaccine products and creating a massive global coronavirus vaccine market.
Agree.
Using this data, and assuming 0.92% is an average year, ‘excess’ deaths in the UK for 2020 were 62,000.
Most likely Covid related.
2021 onwards will be more difficult to pin as the (much ignored) long-tail of non-Covid related early deaths start to creep up e.g. delayed diagnosis/treatment of cancer etc.
2000 610579 58886100 1.04%
2001 604393 59113000 1.02%
2002 608045 59365700 1.02%
2003 612085 59636700 1.03%
2004 584791 59950400 0.98%
2005 582964 60413300 0.96%
2006 572224 60827100 0.94%
2007 574687 61319100 0.94%
2008 579697 61823800 0.94%
2009 559617 62260500 0.90%
“¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦
2010 561666 62759500 0.89%
2011 552232 63285100 0.87%
2012 569024 63705000 0.89%
2013 576458 64105700 0.90%
2014 570341 64596800 0.88%
2015 602782 65110000 0.93%
2016 597206 65648100 0.91%
2017 607172 66040200 0.92%
2018 616014 66435600 0.93%
2019 615455 67530172 0.91%
2020 686,000 67886011 1.01%
Well, the WHO reckons two million internationally are now dead due to this virus.that is more convincing than you wiggling on a numbers hook.
So you believe China CP Man Tedros then?
Normally don’t like commenters pushing basic statistics into the discussion but in this case they give some perspective. Another perspective is comparing to the numbers dying from malaria, malnutrition, etc. and yet another is the 8 billion of the world’s most dangerous species where the planet’s ecology and its other wildlife would be a lot better off with less than half of that amount.
The stats really aren’t that questionable – see excess deaths April 2020 – England’s in particular is huge, massive – pretend what you like about it.
There’s Covid deaths, lockdown deaths, death caused by fear of Covid, deaths caused by Covid blocking up the healthcare system.
The whole economy crippling lockdowns nearly worldwide is a conspiracy to sell vaccines to people?
I mean the Robin Hood short selling thing was clear a conspiracy, but vaccines are a big stretch.
The financial sector rakes in more money through corruption that Big Pharma can dream of. That’s why a large number of senior government people end up ‘working’ for banks, or making ‘speeches’ at £20,000 a pop.
And we will definitely never know how many people are killed by the vaccine which is not a vaccine. It’s more like gene therapy.
Well there have already been over 500 deaths and most of them are said to be ‘unknown’ causes. Yeah right. One can’t believe we will actually get the truth when it comes to big pharma and all the money they stand to lose if people don’t use this jab.
Paranoid troll
Not paranoid and not a troll. I am a concerned citizen who cares about the direction the world is going. Because I have a different opinion than you, doesn’t make mine less valid.
Just ignore them. When they degenerate to name-calling they’ve lost whatever argument they wanted to make.
Indeed. Here’s a question with a rather high profile subject: what did Capt. Sir Tom Moore (RIP) die of within days (certainly within 28 days) of being vaccinated?
Where is the evidence that there have been “over 500 deaths”?
Peer-reviewed science, or just something you read on a website?
And yes of course loads of people who have been vaccinated have died – from falling under a bus, having a heart attack, etc, but where is the peer-reviewed scientific evidence that those events were caused by the virus?
Troll
“The moment you say that 100,000 people have been killed by Coronavirus in the UK you disqualify yourself from being taken seriously.”
Rubbish. I am fully aware of the boundary issues in definitions. I have held a professorship in epidemiology at a US university. You?
Not really, the ONS show ~112,000 people dead within 28 days of a positive test – with ~87% with Covid as a leading cause.
Those who seriously question the large number of Covid deaths are hard to take seriously.
Also see ONS excess death stats, especially UK vs EU.
Then ignore them as they don’t fit your version of events.
No, the ONS stats are deaths where COVID19 was listed as the underlying cause of death on a death certificate, and where it was listed as an underlying or contributing cause (the latter include the former). This gives the lie to the usual “Herp derp, with it or of it?” just-asking-question from the swivel-eyed loons such as yourself, since the death certificates rely on the clinical judgement of a doctor, not just the test.
Equally, it doesn’t include those who DID die from Covid in the first wave but were not detected as doing so because testing was poorly developed then. The two inaccuracies, being in opposite directions, will largely negate each other with only a small net effect, meaning that the number of deaths genuinely from Covid will be in the range 105,000 – 125,000, compared with the current headline figure of 115,000.
You say: “The state therefore has a legitimate public interest in eliminating most transmission, which – in addition to almost eliminating serious illness – the vaccines accomplish (once adequate numbers have been vaccinated).”
Do the coronavirus vaccine products provide sterilising immunity?
No they don’t and the government know they don’t.
We don’t know, but it doesn’t need to.
This “legitimate public interest” arguemtn is so easy to shoot full of holes that i won’t even bother. There are many, many other enforcmenets that would have far greater and more legitimate public interest than this crazy corona lockdown with its dodgy science and draconian measures against innocent civilians. Each country chooses its own corono poison, whether it is police beating up cafe owners in Manchester, UK, or releasing criminals into the general population in the USA and watching with surprise as homicide rates rise dramatically in dozens of cities, imprisoning elderly in infectious nursing homes in the UK, NY, and elsewhere. You get the idea. People have a right to self-defense, and perhaps this is the legal concept most relevant in this context.
Not sure its as cut and dry as you suggest – the altruistic imperative for vaccinations during childhood is easy enough to understand – the diseases they protect against effect children before the full development of their immune systems and the parent has to act as the proxy for the child in making the right decision.
Applying that same imperative across the board doesn’t quite work. If a client of Pimlico Plumbers – for instance – is vulnerable to Covid 19 they will have been directly vaccinated, therefore the additional protection from having a tradesmen in their house vaccinated is negligible or irrelevant.
In the event of someone being unable to take the vaccine and therefore requiring vaccinated trades persons then the protection offered is unlikely to be much more than just that offered through someone being asymptomatic (or, not ill as we use to call it). In other words, not exhibiting any of the symptoms associated with shredding lots of viral particles.
This makes it on the same moral standing as the flu vaccine – which we do not mandate. Those who are vulnerable will be protected directly; those who are unable to take the vaccine will be shielded by the fact that those exhibiting flu like symptoms will not be at work, shedding particles.
There needs to be a much better explanation from employers as to why this vaccine can be a condition of employment but flu vaccines aren’t. If the answer is that I have simply not understood asymptomatic transmission and how this is a game changer, than that’s my point – neither do the employers making these arbitrary rules.
Not true. The vaccines appear to reduce infection rates as well as symptoms, and are likely (the data is still emerging) to reduce how much vaccinated people transmit the virus. Further, vaccines are not 100% effective anyway, so the vaccinated client is more at risk from a tradesperson visiting their home if that tradesperson is not vaccinated.
As is everyone else – if we don’t have herd immunity then the 5-30% of people who do not get protection from the vaccines are likely to suffer as repeated outbreaks will continue.
I think that you are right but you will never win in these columns because everyone is obsessed with being negative. If you say, “Stop all vaccinations.” you will get a chorus of howls with the opposite viewpoint. If you say the government is doing a good job – “O no it isn’t”. If you say that a Labour government would be better, “O no it wouldn’t”. So if you say that vaccinations should be compulsory you get, “O no it shouldn’t”.
It’s not ‘negative’. it’s analytical.
I’m sure the direction of 1930’s Russian/German government policies would have got ‘a chorus of howls with the opposite viewpoint’ but for the firing squad.
I don’t agree with you. IF I was to say, “I support the Chinese.” or “I support the Left” or “I think that the voting age should be lowered to 16” there would not be analytical discussion – there would be howls of derision. Which shows that you have to say certain specific things to get the upticks and others always get the downticks. In the end, for sticking to my view, the site would just dismiss me as a troll. Not really very clever politically, is it.
In debate one expects ‘opposite viewpoints’.
If you perceive these opinions as a “chorus of howls” … “obsessed with being negative” … “howls of derision” … and you being “dismissed as a troll”, well,then, perhaps a bit of paranoia is showing?
I often post on sites which I guess most Unherders would consider extreme radical left, and I frequently get lots of downticks. The trick to getting lots of thumbs-ups there, if that’s what turns you on, seems to be comments along the lines of “This just PROVES capitalism is EVIL!!!!!” And sometimes the very same commenters staunchly defend conflicting views on different days, unaware of their inconsistency.
A parallel phenomenon is apparent here.
this isn’t about vaccines, per se, nor is it about the govt’s efficacy in this matter. The underlying question is, where does this stop? Once you start making a shot for this virus mandatory, the door is opened for doing so with subsequent viruses, or for requiring people to undertake treatment for other condition they may possibly encounter.
Hi, you start quite early, I guess 7:40am. I apologise if I was insulting yesterday. My point is the same. I believe that our civil liberties and rights are not real, especially in the USA. Sitting behind a computer you have all kinds of rights (at the moment) but you don’t have as many rights when you walk out of your house.
You might have free speech, freedom to resist vaccination, etc, but if you are attacked for your views when you are walking around, then those rights are illusory.
To return to the question. In most cases you are correct, of course but consider one further:
Teachers unions refuse to teach unless they have been vaccinated. So say that ‘All teachers must be vaccinated’. Their civil rights allow them to join a union but then they can opt out if they feel like it.
This site serves as mental exercise, getting my brain in gear before confronting the day. Plus, I like debating this sort of thing and this site is among the few where ad hominem is not treated as logical argument. On that point, I didn’t take any comment as offensive.
Teachers, at least here, are a curious case. Where I live, a non-union state, schools have been operational since September. In other states, the vaccine is the latest relocation of the goalposts. Many teachers have gotten used to a far easier lifestyle with less accountability, and they object to reopening period. The vaccine is just the latest excuse. If union members want the vaccine, I’m not going to object though it’s not hard to imagine teachers who will balk at the shot.
Lots of things are real and harmful; do we mandate vaccines for all of those conditions where a jab exists, too? And Covid is harmful for people with certain conditions, including old age and existing infirmity. Is the flu vaccine going to also be mandatory because it, too, causes deaths every year? And what about the next scare virus that comes along?
well then i am a fool!! that covid is real , yes, but harmful, that should be put into context! for the under 60`s no more harmful than flu! and above all that the `vaccines` are safe and effective how do you know? at short term they appear to be relatively safe, but effective, only time will tell. and safe over medium to long term noone knows! and the 100000 figure is people who died with a positive PCR test (and we now know how unreliable that is!). with and of covid 19 are very different things no?
i am a business owner and i will not impose an experimental, unlicensed vaccine on my staff!
“PCR test (and we now know how unreliable that is!).”
We now know? Most scientists still take it as highly reliable, to the best of my knowledge.
Even though it is generally acknowledged that as currently used they produce a high percentage of false positives. What is wrong with “most scientists”? Can’t they read?
Not at the amplification levels mandated by the British politburo. See the WHO’s recent bulletin.
1. All 3 of the present vaccines have not yet completed their Phase 3 Trials which were due to have finished in 2022-23, so the public are basically acting as guinea pigs.
2. Vaccines do not stop infection with Covid-19, they prevent serious illness from it.
3. It Is still uncertain if infection can be passed on by a vaccinated person with Covid or not.
4. Jab or Job, therefore, is completely unreasonable under any interpretation of Human rights to refuse to submit an uncertified as safe vaccine.
All 3 of the present vaccines?
I’m aware of at least nine.
How many people do you think will die before conclusive proof of the safety and efficacy of the vaccines is provided to your satisfaction? I’m saying this not because I want to make it compulsory for everyone to be vaccinated, just questioning your analysis.
It’s quite a selfish response though. It’s already obvious from live data from Israel, Scotland and the rest of the UK that the benefits outweigh the risks. If we hadn’t taken that view with previous vaccines, many of us wouldn’t be here.
3 Are there any examples in history of medicines (or other substances) being right of as perfectly safe, only to be discovered later that they were causing significant harm?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…
Well there is a list of about 150 to start with
Pandemrix, 2009.
Will you share the evidence / data source underpinning your assertion that the vaccines are safe and effective? How can you possibly know? Noone else worldwide does – and if they claim to, then that is demonstrably untrue. At best, the vaccines are still in Phase III trials – a live set of trials, the data from which is being and will be collected.
What you’re saying is your opinion, not fact. As such you shouldn’t start lashing out with patronising insults.
Aha, now we have it! To quote you:
“I have held a professorship in epidemiology at a US university”.
Fascinating, but how come you have now become an ill-mannered oik?
The professional class in the UK used to know how to behave, it was axiomatic that they did so, do you not agree?
But not you? Perhaps a younger generation, who my generation would describe as decidedly ‘not potty trained’.
How sad.
This is truly frightening. We need to cling to the Nuremeberg Code to protect our bodies from Dr Fauci’s experimentation if we so choose or we have no Human Rights at all!
Have people forgotten ‘Medical Block Buchenwald’ so soon?
Can a few third rate, ephemeral Cabinet ‘politicians ‘ take away our basic “Human Rights” at a stroke? Patel, Hancock, Shapps and Williamson et al to be arbiters of our bodily health?
Did this even happen under Stalin – unless you were a political prisoner and expendable ?
The writer is far too calm and “matter of fact “on this subject. Robert F Kennedy, who campaigns against the damage that can be caused by irresponsible vaccine experimentation on human populations, has recently been banned from Instagram where he has 800,000 followers.
Robert Kennedy is an idiot. Anyone who cites him is an idiot too.
so Instagram has joined the ranks of the censors, I see, eagerly taking on a job that govt itself cannot legally do. Perhaps people should give that a thought when they justify actions at Instagram and Twitter because they’re private companies. Being private does not mean their actions are not harmful to free speech, because it’s more than just a legal principle. It is also a social value and govt outsourcing the task of silencing dissent and opposition to private actors does not make it okay.
I once called out Pimlico plumbers when our heating went off in the dead of winter and we had two very young kids. They sent out a guy who charged £650 for two hours’ work draining down and refilling. I have never been so ripped-off in my life. It was straightforward extortion.
Mullins’ behaviour suggests he is out for himself and cares nothing for his customers and employees, except insofar as they line his pockets.
Don’t use these cowboys. They’ll fleece you.
The Nuremberg (1947) Protocol on medical experimentation (yes, that Nuremberg) requires that an individual gives consent, that consent should be fully informed, and that consent should not be procured by direct or indirect coercion.
The US government register of medical studies shows today that the Pfizer study into the long term safety of the use in humans of the experimental RNA technology that is the basis of most SAR-CoV-2 vaccines, and which has never been used in humans, will be complete in January 2023.
The decision to deny someone employment on the basis of their inability to give informed consent prior to that date is remarkable.
Is it wise of an employer to force it’s employees to take an unlicensed vaccine?
In the UK the vaccine manufacturers have immunity to civil actions for injury caused by the vaccine. That leaves any employer who has forced vaccination on his employees heavily exposed.
Don’t forget the reason why the vaccines are unlicensed, is that they have not undergone the usual lengthy tesing process.
What do you mean by unlicensed here?
They certainly seem to have been licensed. Is this another anti-vax nutter talking point?
Licensed. But not tested. One can no more evaluate in a “fast track” program the long term safety of a partly understood immune system’s response to a powerful pharmacological agent in the presence of a rapidly mutating virus than one can gestate a baby in 4 months. Some things take the time they take, and no degree of self induced political hysteria can mend it.
This is nonsense as well. Phase 3 trials are not complete on the ones we’re getting in this country, but there have been published papers on interim results of those trials, and the Phase 1 and 2 tests have completed. So sure, phase 3 tests are ongoing, but “Not Tested” is just not true.
You seem to demand full knowledge of every possible long term effect before doing anything. We’re not going to get that in a reasonable time-frame. However given what we know about existing vaccines, we can make some pretty good predictions.
The options are to stay locked down, accept a lot more deaths (also from non-Covid cases that are crowded out of the health system by covid patients) or try to return to normality using some very well understood medical science which has passed all the tests thrown at it so far, including shorter term phase 3 stuff. I’m opting for the last one, personally.
Saying “powerful pharmacological agent” is a pure scare tactic and appears to be hysteria of your own.
Is this just another “pro-vaccine nutter” talking point?
Which? You’ll have to be more specific.
I agree with you. This is unbelievable. Next I am expecting somebody to say that they want a guarantee that the vaccine will work for a minimum of 10 years before they will have it. Unfortunately, the people who are typing are not the people who are dying.
I am very specifically not one of the people who is dying. I am one of the people who has (i) been infected, (ii) who only realised it in the course of a blood test for something else (iii) who according to recent studies, as a consequence of having been infected, has 95% immunity for up to 8 months–i.e. is indistinguishable from someone who has been vaccinated in terms of my risk to others or the NHS (iv) has no wish to submit himself to risks such as Antibody Dependent Enhancement until the experimental vaccine technology has been fully evaluated. Thank you for your understanding.
> You seem to demand full knowledge of every possible long term effect
Nope. Just the knowledge of long term effects that are acquired in the usual 10 year vaccine development process will be perfectly sufficient.
That’s no longer normal or usual, you’re out of date there. See for example mers or ebola vaccines. The development cycle is now much faster, which is good!
I’ll leave you to it. Best wishes.
None of the vaccines are licensed. They have been “approved”. They may be licensed once they have gone through the full testing process in the next few years
I’m afraid I don’t think this distinction exists. Specifically as the decision on authorisation of (for example) the AZ vaccine spells out that it is not licensed for non-approved uses.
It is certainly a temporary authorisation, but authorisation/approval/license it is.
The difference is that if the vaccine is licensed you can sue the vaccine manufacturer for damages in the event of inury.
If it is “approved” but not licensed the government has given the manufacturer immunity from legal action.
The reason for this is that the govenment has decided that the public health risk from the virus is so serious that it is worth taking the risk of using an untested vaccine.It would be unfair to make the manufacturer liable for injury as it is the govrnment’s decision to take the risk of using an untested vaccine
Hardly “untested”.
The distinction is clear
The manufacturers of licensed vaccines have no statutory immunity from civil actions for injury caused by their vaccine
Manufacturers of unlicensed but approved vaccines do have such immunity.
The reason is that the government gives approval for unlicensed vaccines when they perceive a public health emergency.
Because it is the government that it is short circuiting the testing process it is thought fair not to burden the manufacturers with the cost of injury caused by not fully tested vaccines.
Quite a few people have now had Covid and recovered using their immune system. Research shows that this is more effective than the injected therapies.
Are they to be denied a job?
If they care for vulnerable people, yes. If they work from home, no. One of my daughters is an ICU nurse. Prior to COVID, if nurses at her hospital refused the flu vaccine, they had to take the precautions we take today for COVID, they had to mask, wear gloves, in some cases, the full body suit of armor.
it does not appear that the discussion has become that nuanced. Caring for the vulnerable is not the same as other jobs, be they at home or not.
That was my point 😉
I dont know which country you are talking about…this is Not true in UK, having worked over 30 years as a trained nurse and have never had a flu vaccine. Totally unnessecary if you are healthy
If the covid vaccines were a slam dunk in stopping transmission and we were dealing with a killer virus such as an airborne version of ebola for all, I may agree with you.However, none of the vaccines are truly tested and proven to stop transmission nor even catching covid. Whatsmore a lot of people have already had covid or a similar corona virus, whether they know it or not and will have built up antibody and T cell immunity
Right now, for the average person the risk of the vaccination in the short and longer term unknown is far riskier than covid itself. And of course, we’re back to if a person has a vaccine to stop them catching a disease, why should it bother them if the person next to them in the queue hasn’t had a vaccine.
Any restriction whether it’s on a job or flight or forced vaccination is much the same. A forced medical intervntion – once again – what we all abhored and abhor in certain regimes.
1. Your risk assessment is more of an “I reckon” than a calculation. So far as we know there are very few risks to the vaccines, but covid has killed 2.3 million people.
2. Vaccines are almost never 100% effective, we rely on herd immunity to stop outbreaks of diseases we vaccinate for, so that unvaccinated person still presents a risk.
3. Some of the vaccines were tested for infections, not just for disease, and the data is starting to come in about how they affect transmission. It is likely they do cut it down, but not yet proven.
4. I love how conservative people are all for the rights of companies to operate as they see fit until it might affect them.
I like your fourth point!
How did Graham say it affected him?
Odd then that even where countries like China force vaccines to 99% they still get outbreaks.
The reality is it is impossible to have max-vax rates worldwide, so, unless a country seals its borders, NO-ONE AND NOTHING in or out, there will still be exposure.
Since such sealing is impossible it matters not a whit if 9% or 99% are vaccinated.
“The Telegraph reported a Government source as saying that where there is an “unjustified” fear of the jab”
Gee, I wonder who caused that?
I heard Keir Starmer say the other day that “all Government public health advice should have force of law”. He was talking about how some restrictions are law whilst some are merely advice, so unenforceable, and how this lacked clarity so was therefore bad.
To follow this authoritarian statement to its logical conclusion, vaccination would be compulsory under Labour. A second large glass of wine may well warrant a fine (as would exceeding 14 units a week) and it is possible that spreading butter on ones toast instead of Government approved low fat spread could carry a whole life tariff!
More seriously, the justification for penalising people who won’t take a vaccine can only be justified if it causes harm to others. This really is just a question of personal liberty, which I believe to be absolute (except when harm would be caused to others). We have given up far too many of our liberties in recent times, let us not lose more.
Would police hand out fines (without trial) for non-compliance?
I will almost certainly be taking it myself (unless a reputable reason not to appears, which seems somewhat unlikely), but will be doing so only through informed consent. Any sense of being threatened to do so would undermine my confidence and make me less likely to do so.
You see, I can’t understand this. You talk about civil liberties as if they were sacrosanct but you have already lost most of yours without realising it. There is a really great book by Svetlana Alexievitch which is a record of discussions with ordinary Russians about 15 years after the end of the USSR. The book deals with about 120 people, all from fairly normal backgrounds – the theme is civil liberties.
The inputs are split about 50/50. A half talk about the terrible USSR times when they were frightened to talk in the kitchen because the KGB might have been listening. They talk about how they were not free to do as they wanted. Now, after Gorbachev, they are free. They do admit they they don’t have jobs and they are worried about food for their children.
The other half say that they want to return to the old days. Even though they had to be careful what they said, they had a job, a flat and food. Also the state paid for their health and for the education of their children. They bemoaned the fact that they used to be able to go for walks in the park at night but now the parks were full of drug addicts.
Of course, it goes without saying that I want to be free to type this note. But I also want jobs and flats for my children and that looks a bit grim at the moment.
If you had these civil liberties that you think are important, let me show you how you don’t really. If you have a small home and the neighbourhood dogs are constantly digging up your garden you could put a sign on the fence saying, “Please keep your dogs from my garden because they are ruining my lawn.” If you did that in a great number of communities you would have dog excrement thrown at your windows and kids would pick on your kids at school.
So, you think you are protected by law and you are proud of having your civil liberties but many of them are illusory. In fact, your civil liberties don’t follow enshrined laws, they follow the fashion of the moment. One day you can say something, the next day you can’t.
Those who sacrifice freedom for security are deserving of neither.
I have been in East Germany. I have had contact with the Stasi. Given a choice, I prefer a park full of drug addicts to a park full of secret police. We can do something about drug addicts.
The mainstream view is that the vaccines are safe, effective, and necessary. If we accept this as a given, then the debate would be about the rights of the individual vs. the rights of the collective. Under what conditions should a person be prevented from exercising autonomy when doing such presents a potential threat to the community?
But many are skeptical of “official” views and information, and believe these new drugs may not be safe, effective, or necessary. And this complicates the issues dramatically. Because, while many will write comments debating the benefits of the drugs, or the seriousness of the virus, once we add the dimension of individual vs collective, the issue becomes, does the individual have the right to contribute to public discourse which is perceived as a threat to the community? It seems obvious this is already an operating principle across a variety of concerns. The trend is towards cancelling people who “pose a threat” not directly to the community, but indirectly via dissenting ideas and information.
If power is concentrated in institutions aligned to specific ideas and information, and real debate within institutions is effectively prohibited, it seems inevitable that free dialog supporting dissenting views will eventually be prohibited, on the basis that it threatens the greater good. The issue of whether freedom or individual expression are important human rights will not be debated, because these are among the topics which are categorized as threats to the community.
Don’t usually offer ‘thin end of the wedge arguments’ but surely there is a stronger case to be made for mandatory consumption of the, newly announced today, obesity drug? Maybe if you are over a certain body mass index? Except supermarkets, large fast food chains, to name but a few, would object, so it wouldn’t happen?
If you don’t want to take the vaccine and are stopped from getting on an aircraft or suchlike you say, “I am pregnant” whatever your external appearance might suggest. Then, as the checkin person says, “but you are…” you forcefully interrupt him or her with, “Stop. You think very, very carefully about the rest of that sentence before you say it. If that sentence has anything to do with my gender and my appearance and you say it to me then I will call the police and get on Twitter and the consequences for this airline will be extremely serious.”
That will be Check.
This is why vaccination shouldn’t be compulsory; while there’s a risk if one doesn’t vaccinate, there’s an undeniable risk if one does:
www[dot]gov[dot]uk/vaccine-damage-payment
OMG, a barrister pontificating about vaccination. It’s pretty simple. Those who choose vaccination are much less likely than those who choose not to, to catch or die of covid. Once those at risk (or indeed the whole population) have been offered a vaccine we should get back to as near normal as possible. Those choosing not to be vaccinated will have to live (or die) with the consequences of their decision – personal responsibility. The vaccinated should not be forced to restrict their lives, just as the un-vaccinated should not be forced (by any means) to accept something they don’t want.
In the case of say an eighteen year old who was required to be vaccinated as a condition of employment the risk to his health of contacting Covid 19 are vanishing small. The vaccination is therefore being done not for the benefit of the young person but of some potential older person they might infect. Is it even ethical to give a medical treatment to a person for someone else’s benefit.
This post demonstrates the complete stupidity of most anti-vax losers. The issue is not the health of the individual. The issue is the health of the population.
Your reply is demonstrative too…
Really? Covid is no threat to more than 99% of people. The risk group is very old with 2-3 diseases killing them anyway. The average age of Covid claimed death in the UK is 82 and the average age of death is 81. The issue is that experimental vaccines and genetic treatments for Covid are madness.
And if these experimental and unnecessary vaccines destroy the health of the vaccinated how does that help?
This is a total myth ! The risk group is not the very old. Check your facts before posting!
I know of someone aged 40 dying.
Well, it’s both but either way and unlike the anti vax lot I am more than happy to have a vaccine that protects the lives of others, ( old, with heart conditions, COPD, diabetes, overweight etc etc) stops the hospitals from being totally overwhelmed and avoids millions having to mourn the loss of loved ones. Their suffering is far more important than my so called right to refuse a vaccine
Good on you David, I presume you’ve had your vaccine, and that you can look forward to many more.
Not yet ( not my age group yet) and yes definitely
NO. And I seriously doubt any in the risk group would want someone younger to risk their life and health on these vaccines.
Don’t bet on it Athena…
This has one been one of the most shocking revelations of this entire episode, that apparently many elderly people have no qualms at all about younger people sacrificing their natural defences against this virus, and being subjected to repeated coronavirus vaccination throughout life, with who knows what consequences?
I laid out the issue in my rapid response published on The BMJ last August, see: Is it ethical to vaccinate children to protect the elderly?
If there was clear evidence that they were risking life ( which is just plain crazy) then no. But strangely enough, very few people believe that vaccines risk life and health. I wonder why? Could it be because we have all had vaccines and, surprise surprise, what do you know, we haven’t died or suffered any ill effects! Amazing!
I suspect most adults haven’t had the number of vaccine products and revaccinations that children have now, have you checked the schedule recently?
And children are also being lined up for a lifetime of repeated flu vaccination, and soon it seems a lifetime of coronavirus vaccination, even though they are apparently not at serious risk with the virus.
We have no idea of the long-term effects of the increasing vaccine load, this is a massive global experiment underway.
I was not aware of a ‘lifetime of flu vaccinations’. Seems like a waste of money. In which country are you?
I’m in Australia.
Taxpayer-funded flu vaccination is now on the schedule for children 6 months to five years. And people of all ages are pressed to have flu vaccination every year.
It’s compulsory for some people. For example if you work in aged care, or have a relative in an aged care facility you can’t visit them unless you have had flu vaccination. But the aged people who live in aged care aren’t compelled to have flu vaccines, it’s the younger people who are compelled to have the vaccines.
This is problematic because flu vaccines are very questionable.
“We have no idea of the long-term effects of the increasing vaccine load”
Translation: I don’t know anything about it, but as an anti-vaxxer, I spread any theory I become aware of.
How about “we have no idea of the long-term effects of the increasing Diet Coke load” ?
Consider:
The Helsinki Declaration states: “Medical research involving human subjects may only be conducted if the importance of the objective outweighs the risks and burdens to the research subjects.”
Yes
The vaccines for covid-19 do not meet the criteria to be called a vaccine, they do not prevent you catching it and do not prevent you spreading it, so the no jab no job does not make any sense.
Secondly these jabs are experimental gene therapies still in clinical trials, for Pfizer the clinical trials end in January 2023, others a later date.
As they are experimental this is covered in the Nuremberg code, if you are forced or coerced into a medical experiment without your consent then surely an internationally recognised code has been broken?
The Nuremberg Code (1947)
Permissible Medical Experiments
The great weight of the evidence before us to effect that certain types of medical experiments on human beings, when kept within reasonably well-defined bounds, conform to the ethics of the medical profession generally. The protagonists of the practice of human experimentation justify their views on the basis that such experiments yield results for the good of society that are unprocurable by other methods or means of study. All agree, however, that certain basic principles must be observed in order to satisfy moral, ethical and legal concepts:
The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment.
I am an electrician, I do not have any legal training but I was hoping that I am protected from the dictates of the likes of Charlie Mullins using the justification of for the greater good under the internationally recognised Nuremberg code?
I would welcome feedback from the legal professionals to clarify.
That’s complete nonsense. You are a typical anti-vax whackadoodle – you look stuff up on the inner-tubes, and apply for your Nobel prize in googling. Cluelessness, ignorance, and lack of knowledge are no way to go through life, son.
apart from name calling you have no argument, they are experimental and I don’t want to participate in the experiment, I asked for a legal professional to answer that excludes you
You seem to revel in your ignorance. I’m hoping your employer makes the vaccine mandatory.
spoken like a member of the N Korean regime or similar, or perhaps a Nazi doctor.
You would be quite within your rights not to have the jab. I hope I’m quite within my rights not to employ you because you chose not to have the jab.
Being serially insulted caused me to change my mind. Said no rational person ever.
These people are so scared it’s making them rabid. When you see it from that perspective you can forgive them the name-calling and harshness of their comments.
They work the same way as other vaccines, which reduce the incidence of infection rather than eliminate it completely, and usually also reduce the severity of infections that do occur. This isn’t new or different for these vaccines.
Some (The AstraZeneca/Oxford one in particular) recorded a drop in infection, not just symptoms. And the evidence is coming in that those that do get infected transmit it less.
So all in all, you’re talking bollocks mate.
They work the same way as other vaccines, which reduce the incidence of infection rather than eliminate it completely, and usually also reduce the severity of infections that do occur. This isn’t new or different for these vaccines.
Some (The AstraZeneca/Oxford one in particular) recorded a drop in infection, not just symptoms. And the evidence is coming in that those that do get infected transmit it less.
So all in all, you’re talking rubbish mate.
No, they don’t. “Vaccine” is a regulatory defined term, and the term refers to the injection of a pathogen (inactivated or attenuated) in order to generate an immune response; the intention is to mimic a natural infection, and generate a normal immune response.
The Pfizer/BioNTech and the Moderna injectables do not inject a pathogen. They inject genetic code, to dragoon the mechanics of some of the body’s cells to create a partial pathogen. This is very different from the mechanics of true vaccines.
Those two do indeed use a novel mechanism, but the effect is the same, and this semantic nitpick isn’t what the original poster was referring to anyway – they appear to be labouring under a set of misapprehensions about vaccine effectiveness.
FYI, the CDC definition of a vaccine is “A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease.”
These appear to fit that definition just fine.
It’s a bit like arguing that general anaesthesia is the same a KO blow – they both render you unconscious
If unconsciousness is the aim, they are much the same.
If some degree of immunity to COVID is the aim, mRNA vaccines provide it, perhaps better than most others.
If conforming to some particular definition of vaccine (possibly predating mRNA technology) is the aim, why?
Because vaccines are from a regulatory point of view treated not as pharmaceuticals, but as biologics (in the same class as blood products, for instance). So the regulatory hurdle for approval is much lower than for a pharmaceutical product – a key difference is that you don’t have to show that it is effective in terms of preventing you from catching the disease or being infectious. You just have to show that it generates antibodies.
Also, for biologics, you can get liability exemption. You can’t for pharmaceuticals.
Two BIG differences.
Assuming all you say is true (and I suspect it varies between jurisdictions), doesn’t it apply equally to mRNA vaccines and others?
Actually you have to show (and they have shown) that it prevents the disease. In addition some (AZ, for example) have shown that they reduce infections as well, and the data is starting to roll in about reduced transmission, though clearly it’s not there yet.
There’s a lot more here than just production of antibodies.
No, it’s arguing that they fit the definition of vaccine, which they do. Not sure of your point any longer.
My advice. Don’t go and work for Pimlico Plumbers. I don’t think your objections are that valid. A full blown attack of Covid could stop you working or carrying out a normal life ever again. A jab with severe complications is far more unlikely. People are ignorant. They believe in a piece of plastic because it is easier than educating themselves.
Then if I need an Electrician it will not be you.
If I have a choice between a tradesman who has had the jab against one who has not then I’ll take the one who has had it every time.
If Pimlico (or any other plumbing firm) can advertise that all their staff are protected then that will prove a major imperative to put them on your short list for a job
Everybody so het up these days. Covid will fade away while we argue about principles.
Being vaccinated does not mean we are not infectious any more than asymptomatics. Young non jab can surely go about as they wish? They get flu, it just doesn’t usually lay them low.
Practically an employer can choose who he employs and can say (to someone jab free) that they were unsuccessful this time.
For me, if my boiler breaks down I’d never think of asking for a vaccine passport but there are a lot of corona divas sprung up lately.
What no one is mentioning is that this “vaccine” has not been proven to stop transmission or infection. The COVID-19 vaccine only reduces MILD symptoms. That is all is has been proven to do. It is not called the SARS-coV-2 vaccine for reason – it does not tackle the infection or transmission. So why make this compulsory? Fauci has stated this as well. Why do you think you will still need to wear a mask and social distance? Unherd, please stop representing these vaccines as brining an end to coronavirus as they have not been proven to do so. Our immune systems are the only thing that will do this to date. Exposure of the virus to the very young and the healthy will protect the vulnerable according Dr. Levitt and Dr. Ioannidis. Please read both reports presented to the FDA by Pfizer and Moderna as it states:
“Known Benefits
The known benefits among recipients of the proposed vaccine relative to placebo are:
“¢ Reduction in the risk of confirmed COVID-19 occurring at least 14 days after the second
dose of vaccine
“¢ Reduction in the risk of confirmed severe COVID-19 occurring at least 14 days after the
second dose of vaccine”- Does not state the disease SARS-coV-2 but COVID-19-the symptoms.
https://www.fda.gov/media/1…
https://www.fda.gov/media/1…
Well I wonder if Mr Mullins is prepared to keep paying or compensate any of his employees in the unlikely event they are unable to work due to short or long term side effects. Even if he is the burden of proof would no doubt be on the employee …….good luck with that.
It is pretty disappointing, alarming, and typical that this writer leaves out of his disquisition entirely the question of the intrinsic value of these new vaccines. He leaves unmentioned and undiscussed the very real risks they pose. His unstated premise is that there are no valid reasons to refuse the shots. In this way the piece actually acts like a propaganda piece: by leaving the underlying issue unstated and treating as established fact points that are still in active contention. For shame!!
Anyone remember that quaint and now apparently antiquated idea… something about a right to privacy..? having a private life? The ‘Englishman’s castle’ -whereby a man, or woman, might withdraw, raise the portcullis and drawbridge behind him and to where no one had the right to trespass, interfere or get involved (unless he was up to something especially nefarious perhaps). Now we have been beaten back into our homes it seems the interfering forces are still not content. It’s our minds and bodies they want to get into also.
There is no “right to privacy from virii”. You are confused.
I am confused -but by your response -please explain.
“right to privacy” involves your own person. Virii do not respect anything about that. You are mixing up a “right” with medical reality.
Stick to whatever it is that you do, George. I have never had a flu shot, and am well, but apparently I have no “right to privacy” from you and your ilk, willingly consuming the party line-evidence indeed!
Stupid people throughout history have limited medical progress. I guess that includes you.
No I am not -you are mixing things up.
A virus does not have any legal standing, obligations or duties -it cannot form legal relations -it is not a legal entity. The person injecting the vaccine into you, or implementing measures to protect people against the virus has.
The ‘medical reality’ your refer to is defined by people -those who dispute the measures implemented are also people. So the relationship there is a legal one also (as well as there being other important relationships).
But a right to privacy is important here and those who blithely dispose of it with glib phrases like ‘medical reality’ are missing the point.
With regard to your earlier, now removed, post: intelligent people have also limited ‘medical progress’ throughout history, and for intelligent reasons. They still do, and thankfully so.
Generally Medical associations have stated in their code of ethics that no medical treatment can be given without the free consent of the patient.
How can a vaccine ever be mandatory?
We’re in a war…and the technocrats, ‘our’ world leaders, ‘the modellers’, and the fear-mongering behavioural scientists are the foe, pressing a medical tyranny on the people.
And all this is purportedly to protect the NHS, the health service which is supposed to protect the people – why is it not fit for purpose, for the viruses that surface every year?
As for this war, it’s not guns we’re facing, but the needle, what power ‘the authorities’ have when they can compel people to take a needle, repeatedly, year after year, and potentially even more frequently. And stealing people’s natural defences against the virus, with the aim of making them dependent on the vaccine industry…
This is for a virus which started off not being a threat to most people, but who knows what they’re unleashing now with this onslaught of needles, which already can’t keep up with the ‘variants’…
Why was there such reluctance to find effective treatments for this virus? Because this was their opportunity to put in place what they really wanted, mass vaccination of all the people, making people submissive with social distancing and isolation, intrusive testing, masking/muzzling, surveillance via QR codes and via credit cards without our permission, quarantining people without symptoms, and incarcerating people in their own homes with lockdowns, and vaccination passports, and restrictions on participating in life looming if people don’t buckle to coercive vaccination.
What a strategy to subdue the people!
And so many have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker…
I’m in two minds about this. A lockdown sceptic with grave concerns about current state overreach, I am nonetheless on the one hand more at ease with vaccine passports than other interventions. We already need passports, proof of immunisation, or various forms of identification to travel, enter employment and open a bank account. Malaria and yellow fever inoculations are required to travel to certain countries, and a smallpox vaccination was once needed to travel within Europe. Something like track and trace, which requires a terrifying level of control, or mandates on social distancing, are to me far more worrying than what is ostensibly a fairly traditional bureaucratic mechanism.
That said, I do see the danger of requiring someone to undergo a medical procedure in order to do almost any job – or even, worse, to enter a pub, shop or cinema. And those who for whatever reason choose not to get vaccinated, or members of peripheral social groups resistant to vaccinations, would find themselves on the wrong side of a two-tier society.
Do not be in two minds my good Sir, it is a complete breach, a monumental crossing of the line. Imagine having your freedom of choice stripped from you by threat of loosing your employment. It is completely shocking, as I posted earlier, these people are not in servitude to this man.
You have freedom of choice until the end of your arm. Your “freedom of choice” involves being infectious. That’s not equivalent.
Epidemics throughout history have involved mandatory quarantine, on pain of death. They are completely legal. That’s where we are now.
The quarantines were imposed upon the known to be sick, not healthy people. “Legal” is a slippery slope, Stasi man.
Perhaps you should research the
origin of “Quarantine”
As an international seafarer I had to have several’Jabs’ to get and keep a job. All those claiming the Nuremberg Clause should try telling a Border Official (Almost anywhere in the world) That your ‘uman rites are paramount in his/her country.
You can puff up your chest all you
like on here – just try it “over there”.
Perhaps in your own troubled mind. You may happily give up your individual hard fought for freedoms, others however may disagree.
Quarantine involves the already infected and we’re not really doing that with covid. With the healthy, it’s more like house arrest which is something less than a principled position.
Quarantine here involves anyone arriving in the country.
I am beginning to think that this is becoming a Western issue and my view is becoming increasingly one of ‘for heavens sake – it’s just a vaccine! Get over it. Throughout the world people have vaccines all,the time’
Yes, people have vaccines all the time and often die or spread more disease. However, the Covid vaccines are even more experimental and the mRNA are not even vaccines, but genetic treatments. Let us all make our own choices.
As before, when you can show me the numbers of people who are dying or suffering serious ill effects from the Covid vaccine, which has now been given to tens of millions and increasing everyday, then I might take some note of what your say. Until then I will be mourning the tens of thousands who die every day from Covid. I look forward to hearing about why even 100 deaths from the vaccine is worse than the tens of thousands dying from Covid. It’s a warped bit of morality that says a few possible side effects is worse than the thousands of dead and the loss of loved ones.
Yes, I think you’re right in saying it’s a ‘Western issue’… A campaign to get rich Western countries to pay for very questionable coronavirus vaccine products, to be pressed upon entire populations year after year, or even more frequently.
Oh dear, how sad. But no where near as sad as those 100s of thousands- millions who are morning the loss of loved ones to Covid.
Over the past 12 months 2.3 million deaths have been attributed to Covid-19 – that’s in a global population of 7.8 billion, with 59 million deaths expected in a year. And they’ve done their best to cobble as many deaths as possible under the Covid label, questionably so.
This is beginning to sound like some conspiracy theory ‘they (whoever they are ) are cobbling together deaths . Presumably to justify wasting tons of money on lockdowns and vaccines. I think not
‘Yes, unvaccinated plumbers, and shop assistants, and bus drivers ” even tree surgeons ” increase the risk of spreading the disease.’ This is not yet known. The vaccines do not prevent people from catching or transmitting the virus, however they do make the symptoms markedly less serious. Thus it could be argued that vaccinated people are more likely to pass on the virus as they will be less aware of the fact they are carriers.
Actually we can’t really say they don’t affect transmission – it seems that they probably make people less contagious and for a shorter time.
The data is still being collected.
It is true that vaccinations have saved lives, but equally true they can be dangerous to a minority of recipients. This vaccine programme was not offered to us …. so much as sold to us, in a rather obvious and clumsy way, with a somewhat tasteless, insensitive reminder of vaccine companies being indemnified against harm or death from side-effects. Alternative, less-invasive medicines are being tested and will (in time) be made available as pills, tablets and oral medicines, that could be halted if harmful effects emerge. This strikes me as a more attractive, risk-free alternative & should have been developed in parallel to the jabs.
What is true is that people believe vaccines have saved lives, however the evidence to support that belief does not exist.
Much is claimed for vaccines which is not deserved. The records clearly show less incidence and plummeting mortality where living conditions were improved, long before vaccines.
However, even if vaccines had saved lives it is delusional to believe they are critical to human survival, or, given their at times Frankenstein and artificial nature, ever promote good health. More so given the massive increase in the past 40 years where from 2-3 at older ages, a child is now likely to be vaccinated more than 50 times in the first five years of life.
What beggars belief is that anyone could think such massive meddling in natural function could ever be a good thing.
Show me th evidence for your claim that evidence to show that vaccines don’t save lives doesn’t exist. Is this just something you have picked up from some bizarre conspiracy theory?
What beggars belief is that people have some weird belief that vaccines don’t protect
Cast your mind back to Friday 13 March 2020…
Consider the article published on the Independent on that date, titled: Coronavirus: 60% of UK population need to become infected so country can build ‘herd immunity’, government’s chief scientist says.
A few quotes from that article:
The UK’s chief scientific adviser has said the government wants 60 per cent of the population to catch coronavirus to try and create “herd immunity” to protect against the virus becoming an annual crisis.
Sir Patrick Vallance told BBC Radio 4’s Today Programme that he thought the coronavirus was likely to become an “annual virus” and that the strategy was to limit the impact on the NHS but not stop the virus completely.
Sir Patrick told the BBC that the advice the government is following for tackling coronavirus is not looking to “suppress” the disease entirely but to help create a “herd immunity in the UK” while protecting the most vulnerable from it.
Asked if there is a fear that clamping down too hard on its spread could see it return, Sir Patrick said: “That is exactly the risk you would expect from previous epidemics.
“If you suppress something very, very hard, when you release those measures it bounces back and it bounces back at the wrong time.
Very interesting to look back at that article now…what happened that the government did a 180 on this approach?
I have a brilliant plan. When the teachers unions complain about their members not getting vaccinated first, say OK but ALL teachers must be vaccinated, or else they could be sacked.
Since the U.K. is not making vaccination compulsory and is not issuing certificates of vaccination, the question is entirely theoretical, not to say irrelevant.
Still stand by this assertion?
Ultimately this is all about the control of unhinged, power-crazed, conflicted and corrupt people trying foist products on the population at the best in the infancy of their development, and on the most charitable interpretation they do not know what they are going to do: if they are at all effective they will likely just cause the virus to mutate rendering them redundant within weeks (but we have to pay for them, and the manufacturers are indemnified). Meanwhile they have suppressed effective remedies, Vitamin D,HCQ, Ivermectin etc which would long have brought about the return to normal life, and saving tens of thousands of lives, which manifestly they don’t want to happen.
This article completely ignores issues relating to the views and rights of the “customer”. Should I have a right to say that I do not want an unvaccinated plumber in my house… or have my granny being looked after in a care home by an unvaccinated carer?
Etc etc.
And the rules in a pandemic are different than in a non-pandemic.
I’m old enough to remember when HIV became widely known among the general public. At the time, HIV was 100% fatal and there was much uncertainty among the general public as to how one could be infected. “I think you can get it off a toilet seat that someone who has AIDS has used before you,” was the sort of thing the public said.
As you are doing today George, people were saying, “the rules are different during a pandemic”. That sentence would be followed by, “now, I’ve got nothing against gays. They can do what they want, that is their business, but this is different and we can’t let them spread this disease and kill everyone. So, let’s find an island…”
Thankfully, enough people who took the view that gay men are human beings and therefore have human rights to stop any of the proposed solutions being implemented.
Thank god we live in more enlightened times.
Ironically, we have become so enlightened that in some US jurisdictions, it is legal to knowingly attempt to transmit the AIDS virus to another person. When the pendulum swings, and it does swing, it has this habit of going to the opposite polar extreme.
If CV was much more dangerous than the ‘flu there might be justification.
Covid is undoubtedly far more dangerous than flu. You only need to compare the hospitalisation and death rates to verify that.
Irrespective of the nature of the virus, an employer cannot enforce mandatory vaccination upon its workforce.
No but he can still dismiss then for non compliance with company policy.
He could, but he would be on very shaky ground legally.
The correlation between a free speech argument and workplace health and safety is not a sensible or credible one to make. As conceded we have statutory rules in the work place and these also consist of risk assessment. It is negligent behaviour if an employer has been found not to have carried out an adequate risk assessment affecting not only their employees but all second and third parties who may be affected by that risk. A level of risk is given a numerical grading and those which result in physical harm or death are ranked at the highest level of risk. The law has been established now for many years and as a result has reduced work related death, injury and illness dramatically which any sensible person would consider a good idea. The law as it stands would compel employers not to allow their employees to go around without adequate protection to themselves or anyone else. In truth all employers will have now to consider whether they can employ those who are not vaccinated if they are coming into contact with another as part of their job.
This is not a free speech issue.
Correct, it is a Human Rights issue. Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which protects people from being interfered with physically or psychologically and includes mandatory vaccinations.
There are no plans to make vaccines mandatory. There are however legal requirements on both employers and employees to conduct their business in a safe and responsible manner backed up by large fines and imprisonment. If it came to a situation where an employee fought against dismissal on individual human rights grounds against a statutory requirement to protect against injury and death I think it’s fairly obvious on which side the scales of justice would ultimately have to fall.
It is not obvious. An employee could site unfair dismissal on the grounds that they do not wish to have the vaccine on various grounds including:
Religion or belief
Disability
Pregnancy
To name but a few…
Well we will only ultimately find out if a case ends up in the higher courts. I think it would require more than a workplace tribunal to impose a legal precedent on this one.
In addition the employer would have to be able to justify a breach of the individuals Human Rights. Other less personally invasive measures are available to employers to maintain the health and safety of their workforce, such as social distancing and the wearing of face coverings, and other Covid secure measures. If a business has assured it’s employees that they have been able to work safely under these previous covid secure measures, they cannot then use health and safety as a means to impose vaccination. I am no legal expert but even I doubt this would stand up to scrutiny.
It’s far more than a speech issue; it cuts to the heart of whether we are citizens or subjects. It’s funny how the “my body, my choice” argument is limited to a single application. If a workplace was staffed by 70 and 80 year old people, most of them suffering from numerous health issues, then compulsory vaccination might make sense.
Also, making this shot mandatory has now opened a Pandora’s box – what other medical precautions for future viruses or currently known conditions will become mandatory, too? Because otherwise, there is no principled reason for mandating this shot.
The vaccination is not mandatory and no one in government has said that it will be. The mandatory aspect is in truth a non story. So no one is going to be made to have the jab, however they may well find their employment choices severely restricted without doing so where it involves coming into contact with others should they choose not to.
And yet, here we are in the comments section of an article discussing that very topic. People in govt HAVE talked about the possibility, if only in regard to the passport application. It’s not a far leap from international to domestic, and when you suggest that failure to get a vaccine might limit someone’s employment options, that’s coercion in different form.
As you said a while ago, like you people like to flex their intellectual muscles. The idea that a vaccination could be forced is literally incredible. Still brings me back to the point where you don’t really have any civil liberties apart from being able to type on this site.
It’s not so much flexing as something I like; it gets my mind flowing and I like reading the perspectives of others. The wrinkle here is that Unherd is UK-based, so it’s exposure to people I would not otherwise encounter as readily. If I have a crazy argument, someone will point that out and usually in the unfailingly polite British manner.
We already have forced vaccinations; I took them and so did my kids as a bar to entry into public schools. One difference, though, is volume. In my day, they totaled fewer than ten. Today, it’s more than three dozen which dovetails into a point I have raised here with little success: where does this stop? Today, it’s Covid but there is going to be a tomorrow and a day after that. Yes, it is incredible that govt officials can suggest, and citizens can apparently agree, that it’s okay to say ‘no jab, no job.’ There is no principled support of that position; it is purely situational, and people might want to look beyond the virus of the moment.
Being able to freely type here is a step ahead of what people in other societies can do. I can also marry the consenting adult of my choice, pick a line of work and employer, and move about mostly unencumbered. If there is a shortcoming, it is a growing inability or unwillingness on the part of govt to realize that its main role is to safeguard my rights and yours.
All laws are coercive. That’s their very nature. They are there to persuade individuals to conform to what society in general think is appropriate. As a law they are also mandatory yet vaccination is not a legal or mandatory requirement. There are laws that limit your choices if you choose not to have a vaccine which will influence a personal choice but that is the situation with any number of the choices for individuals especially when their choice can directly affect the wellbeing of others.
Most laws have to do with providing a means of punishment for intentionally harming people or taking their things. There is no such principled basis for a law mandating this vaccine. It also raises the question of the next mandated vaccine, or the next mandated behavior whose bad outcomes can impact others.
In the US, obesity is widespread and an acknowledged health hazard. Should govt mandate BMI or weight rules for hiring? Should all smokers or heavy people be barred from employment because their actions may, as you put it, directly affect the well-being of others, often financially through increased medical costs?
As it is, we have a massive population of the incarcerated, many for victimless crimes. That’s a result of too many laws, maybe well-intentioned laws but ultimately that must be enforced. It seems one marker of a totalitarian society is creating new ways of turning citizens into criminals, or potential criminals, and arbitrary laws are a means of doing that. Today, it’s Covid; what will the pretext for tomorrow’s mandate be?
It’s really rather simple. Mullins runs a business which sends freelance plumbers into people’s homes. He sees an advantage in being able to say to his potential customers, ‘All of our plumbers are vaccinated’. It is up to him if he wants to take advantage of this opportunity.
Others may think that employing care workers who deal with the extremely vulnerable who have refused a vaccination when offered one is unreasonable. Thousands of old people died in care homes, or died of a disease they caught in care homes. I’d suggest that of you want to work caring for the elderly, it is probably a duty incumbent on you to accept vaccination. If you don’t like that idea, then get a job sweeping the roads.
It`s all very well debating the issue here in the UK but what happens if other countries, anxious to reassure their own population, decide `no jab, no entry`?
I wonder how many of those vehemently defending their right not to be vaccinated will feel irate when told they can’t holiday in the country of their choosing, because foreigners can’t make decisions affecting them?
This may very well be an opening to a larger discussion of how countries should get to decide who enters the country, period.
One would expect those who feel an individual has the right to determine what enters their body to accept a country has the right to determine who can enter its borders. But expectations can be proved wrong!
You are assuming the vaccinated will be healthy enough to ever travel again.
It will be interesting when all those relatively healthy people under 70 catch on that they’re going to be pressed to have coronavirus vaccination every year, or even more frequently, and sacrifice their own natural defences to the virus.
Wonder what they will think about the government and SAGE etc planning on making them dependent on the vaccine industry for their lifetime?
I don’t think the penny has dropped yet…
It’s kind of obvious and simple – They are going to think exactly what they do about having an annual flu vaccine. The penny might not have dropped with you but I think you will find that they have already worked this out for themselves. It not exactly complicated . They don’t think they are sacrificing ( an alarmist word) anything when they get the flu vaccine!
Do you think?
I suspect there may be many people out there who do not want to have vaccinations every year of their life, or even more frequently.
Who knows what vaccination throughout life with a variety of vaccine products is doing to people, when simply living a healthy life would have been sufficient to protect them.
This vaccination religion has gotten completely out of hand, it’s way past time for a review.
Problem is, the vaccine industry has hijacked public health.
‘Simply living a healthy life ‘ does not protect you from disease. Talk about a disingenuous vaccine industry. The anti vax people are trying to con people into believing that a simple healthy life will protect them !
Really David, this constant ‘anti-vax’ labelling is wearing very thin.
Vaccination is a medical intervention, and people are entitled to question it.
In my opinion there is gross over-use of vaccine products, similar to the over-use of antibiotics, opioids, anti-depressants, proton pump inhibitors, etc, etc.
Are people who question antibiotics labelled ‘anti-antibiotics’?
We need more informed and sophisticated discussions about vaccination, and to move beyond the childish name-calling.
Question yes and then listen to the answers! What we really need is to move beyond the propagation of unevidenced arguments against vaccines. If and when there is clear, evidenced research findings to back up the views, for that is all they are, then I think you will find that those against vaccines are lumped in together as anti vaxers. Those who argue against antibiotics have good researched evidenced behind them! And will society be ab,e to sue those who convinced some to refuse the vaccine but then died ? Discuss
So, you’re an ‘expert on vaccines’ David?
What do you think about the emerging problem of early waning maternally derived antibodies in babies of mothers vaccinated against measles? Maternally derived antibodies (MDA) from vaccinated mothers may wane earlier than MDA from mothers who had wild measles. This means babies of vaccinated mothers may lose passive immunity earlier than those of mothers who had wild measles.
This is very alarming, because babies who lose passive immunity earlier, before they are more fully developed, may be more vulnerable to disease.
Again, this is an emerging issue which is vital to consider for future generations.
I’ve raised this matter on The BMJ, see for example my BMJ rapid responses: Universal measles vaccination – “well worth the risk of reduced transplacental immunity and increased vulnerability in adults”? 11 November 2018; and What does failing vaccine immunity mean for current and future generations? 13 April 2019.
But as far as I’m aware, no action is being taken to consider what could be a very serious problem for future generations.
Due to the hostile climate that has been fostered to stifle questioning about vaccination policy and practice over the past years, tagging people raising concerns as ‘anti-vaxxers’, many emerging vaccine problems are not being addressed, they’re being covered up.
Then you simply require a better vaccine for adults.
I’ll persevere looking elsewhere for more thoughtful consideration of this matter…
Ahhh yes…”require”-the magic word. Sorry sir, but only the mandatory is permitted.
“Who knows what vaccination throughout life with a variety of vaccine products is doing to people…….”
Do you have any evidence on that, or is this simply uninformed scarermongering? If you have no evidence, why not instead ask “who knows what listening to MP4 files throughout life is doing to people? who knows what eating chicken tikka masala throughout life is doing to people?”
“….. when simply living a healthy life would have been sufficient to protect them.”
Drivel. You are blaming the 115,000-odd people who have died from Covid in the UK, and the million or two who have had it without dying, for catching the disease from others by “not living a healthy life”. How do you think they caught it – orgies with pangolins?
This is a fairly straightforward problem… if being vaccinated can be framed as a reasonable health and safety requirement for the work involved, then demanding a vaccine is perfectly reasonable. If not, then it is discriminatory.
Right now it is reasonable to argue that not having a Covid vaccine in an office setting puts both oneself and others at risk, as does a worker in others’ properties. In these cases the requirement makes sense, just as demanding masks currently does too. However, demanding a yellow fever vaccine would not be appropriate in the UK, nor would compulsory mask wearing for lorry drivers who work alone.
What is reasonable now might not be in a year or two, or from place to place, and so requirements must necessarily change accordingly. Not really sure what all the fuss is about when it is viewed in these terms.
Complete and utter hogwash. It is not reasonable, now or ever for an employer to demand that an employee be vaccinated to retain their job. The very thought of it fills me with disgust and despair. Disgust at the utter lack of humanity on the part of this Mullins character and despair at the thought of the men and women in his employment being subjected to such barbaric treatment. Shame on him and shame on anyone else who thinks this is a reasonable demand. These workers are not in servitude to this despicable man.
I said “if” it is reasonable; I passed no judgement myself on whether it actually was.
Personally, I am very much against compulsory vaccination, and I don’t think it could be justified on health and safety terms at this time. I can however imagine a situation where I might think it reasonable to only allow people who are vaccinated to perform certain roles. However, we are a long way from this, as it would have to be proven to be the only option to ensure the safety of staff and customers, and voluntary vaccination would have to have failed to contain the virus in the wider community.
If we say that it would “never” be reasonable to make mandatory requirements on health and safety grounds, then this is the argument against making seat belts compulsory, or protective equipment in hospitals and on building sites. This is of course a perfectly reasonable position, but not one that the majority hold.
Right now it is reasonable to argue that not having a Covid vaccine in an office setting puts both oneself and others at risk, as does a worker in others’ properties.
if it was that “reasonable,” there would be far more infections than there have been. There would be no category known as asymptomatic and the worst off would not be predominantly 80 years old with other health issues. Not having a flu vaccine presumably puts others at risk. Do we also mandate that vaccine? “The fuss” is that once you have opened this Pandora’s box, it does close again.
Certain vaccines give you 100% protection so there is no risk to anyone who has been vaccinated coming into contact with someone who has not been vaccinated for those diseases. Covid vaccines are not giving 100% protection so there is more risk to others from those who have not been vaccinated than those who have been (there is still some risk). Also there are well established requirements for certain jabs if you want to travel overseas to certain countries. So compulsion is not new. There is likely to be ostracisation of those who have not had the vaccine in the workplace, that will be a challenge for employees. The more interesting angle is whether hotels, B&Bs, pubs, restaurants, cinemas, travel companies (eg Saga’s policy) start to deny their services to those who have not been vaccinated.
compulsion as a condition of keeping one’s job certainly is new. This should not have to be stated.
Actually – mandatory equipment to keep one’s job is actual normal. Teachers must use new technology, healthcare workers PPE, construction site workers new safety gear, and everyone health and safety legislation.
Vaccines as a compulsory thing would be new, and I’d very much put the burden on a company to prove that it was proportional and not discriminatory. Which would be very difficult to argue even with things as they stand.
My point was merely that a company should have to argue this, not that the argument would be won. I am personally very much against mandatory vaccination. However, one can conjure scenarios in which that changes, and it actually does become important. For example, I think it is very reasonable for a vulnerable person to only allow vaccinated workers in their house or care home – that would seem perfectly within their rights. It does not hold that this would still be reasonable once the disease is very rare in society again.
On your other points, there *have* been a lot of infections. Most appear to have spread in indoor settings, and they are spread right across the age groups that mostly work in offices. The (rather appealing) idea of letting the disease move through society and shielding the old has also been comprehensively demolished simply by looking at the number in this age group who have filled the hospitals and cancelled other medical care from everyone else. It is not tenable to hold the position that everyone getting together who is not at high risk would work – we saw it not work literally in the last couple of months.
It used to be that if we were unwell we home treated ourselves,’self isolated’ if you like, and if that didn’t help we contacted our GP who prescribed something to help or sent us to the Hospital. Now, if we feel ‘unwell’ if it is Covid related, and what is so grows daily ever greater, we stay at home, and dial a number or try to access a website and wait. What we don’t do is contact our GP, they have specifically told us not to, and if it gets worse we can phone amother number or access another website and we eventually find ourselves in hospital or we just get better. I overgeneralise.
Now, we can get a jab, whether we are unwell or not. Indeed we must get a jab for whilst there is no compulsion there are consequences for not doing so. No jab, No Job. No travel without a vaccination passport. QR code readers to gain access to buildings. Test and Trace Apps to keep tabs on our movements. Neighbours encouraged to report our (anti) social activities. All hypothetical and yet?
This outbreak of something that did not exist 12 months ago, except in Wuhan which the WHO exonerates from any suspicions we might have is being used to fundementally change our relationships with ourselves and the State. Whether this is a good thing is moot but it does seem that we have little option but to go along with it if we want to retain freedoms we once took for granted, however modified they are becoming.
No jab, No Job. No travel without a vaccination passport. QR code readers to gain access to buildings. Test and Trace Apps to keep tabs on our movements. Neighbours encouraged to report our (anti) social activities.
Where does it end? Set aside covid for a moment. If you accept the premise of ‘no jab, no job,’ you can be certain there will be further applications down the road. Same with nosy neighbors and all the rest. We have treated a virus that is most harsh on the very old and infirm as a universal threat to all humanity. And we compound the fear with spurious counting of Covid deaths.
My issue with the position of those who think such an approach is warranted, is that you are imposing vaccination on people retrospectively… In other words, you are rewriting the terms of a person’s employment contract. This to me is utterly unacceptable.
I can see a good reason to protest it being mandatory – the state deciding I *must* get a shot would be a worrying precedent even at times like this. We’re on greyer ground when it comes to employers, who presumably want to reassure their customers they’re not sending super-spreaders out to their houses.
But the fearmongering around the vaccines themselves is ridiculous. It’s just a jab, it’s not going to hurt you for more than a couple of seconds, and you’ll be helping the country get out of this terrible state. Get over yourself.
‘Having an unequal effect that correlates with a “protected characteristic” is not the only way for a policy to be bad, of course.’ A major problem with the argument lies in that term ‘protected characteristic’. Protecting those ‘characteristics’ acquired by choice inevitably results in many of the nonsensical arguments brought up by Covid. It’s perfectly rational for someone with an at-risk immune system to reject vaccination; it’s utterly irrational for, eg, someone who chooses to believe that someone else who claims to speak for a deity and says it’s wrong should also reject a jab. Only those characteristics over which we have no choice – skin colour, height, age, disability – should be protected. Those we choose should be as open to questioning and criticism as everything else we do or say.
Has there ever been a proper national debate about anything?
This
is this Mullins the mate of Dave Cam and who was so pro Europe ?
Does anyone know if his operatives are staff or subcontractors ? He has lost lawsuits thereon.
there are folk better qualified to talk about vaxx…eg the french president, who is still in the EU .
I will not take this medication voluntarily. I use those words deliberately because for me a vaccine confers lifetime immunity and voluntarily means complete freedom to choose with no adverse consequences flowing from deciding in one particular way.
I do not cover my face, I have not given my contact details to a venue as a condition of admission and I will not take a covid test.
However.
I value attending a workplace above all else, and I have to be able to pass an enhanced DBS check.
I also think coercion is coming and the fact that the inefficacy of these medications means, at present, that it is likely to mean four injections a year, which make it eminently suitable to be a mechanism of coercive control.
Given the extent to which it seems to require boosting it probably needs to be a tablet that can be purchased over the counter, but that is another story.
I will hold out as long as I can against taking this, but when – and I am very much afraid it is when, not if – taking it is a condition of attending a workplace, either at all or unmuzzled, then, and only then, will I take it. Under protest as I don’t think it confers any benefit on a healthy person, regardless of age.
Many vaccines do not confer lifetime immunity. Coronavirus vaccines are not special in that regard.
Yes, vaccination will be of benefit to healthy people, particularly older folks.
You seem to be very misinformed.
All anti-vax dummies are completely misinformed. Also stupid.
You do go on…
Name one vaccine which guarantees lifelong immunity to everyone vaccinated. There are none.
Hoping that your employer will make it a required condition for employment.
Clearly a fellow that cares about others…willing to dispassionately discuss issues respectfully…unless you are “stupid” or a “loser”…right Sir George?
No vaccine gives lifelong immunity. That is why they give boosters.
The only immunity comes from naturally acquired disease.
It’s generally accepted that the ‘live’ measles vaccine provides lifelong immunity, i.e. sterilising immunity.
That’s what I’d been led to believe…
However, there could be emerging problems with the measles vaccine, i.e. that maternally derived antibodies (MDA) from vaccinated mothers may wane earlier than MDA from mothers who had wild measles. This means babies of vaccinated mothers may lose passive immunity earlier than those of mothers who had wild measles.
This is very alarming, because babies who lose passive immunity earlier, before they are more fully developed, may be more vulnerable to disease.
Again, this is an emerging issue which is vital to consider for future generations.
I’ve raised this matter on The BMJ, see for example my BMJ rapid responses: Universal measles vaccination – “well worth the risk of reduced transplacental immunity and increased vulnerability in adults”? 11 November 2018; and What does failing vaccine immunity mean for current and future generations? 13 April 2019.
But as far as I’m aware, no action is being taken to consider what could be a very serious problem for future generations.
Due to the hostile climate that has been fostered to stifle questioning about vaccination policy and practice over the past years, tagging people raising concerns as ‘anti-vaxxers’, many emerging vaccine problems are not being addressed, they’re being covered up.
Ever the businessman, but the chap who owns Pimlico Plumbers likely sees an angle here, particularly as he’s operating at the higher end of the market.
Insisting his workers have jabs and advertising the fact that they have had jabs is essentially a selling point to those of the more well heeled nature who might employ your services, possibly regardless of whether they themselves might have chosen to have them or not.
It would be astonishing to many even ten years ago how much privacy has been relinquished by individuals when signing up to platforms/browsing websites, but what’s maybe more amazing is how few seem particularly bothered.
As with privacy, once vaccines are framed as a minor invasion in return for a host of Cool Perks like travelling abroad, using public transport, accessing some venues, attaining certain jobs etc. many likely won’t dither about it.
I also sense a background assumption in some discourse around vaccines (whether one is worried or not) that everyone needs to be vaccinated for it to work, but that isn’t actually true. Once a certain percentage of a population can’t transmit it, a virus can’t spread so quickly and would be demoted to the state of others like colds and flus. That’s what the whole herd immunity ‘strategy’ wanted to obtain naturally (which was grounded in some logic but insanely wreckless).
So it seems possible to just leave alone the minority who will adamantly refuse to have one – that really isnt a problem unless they’re ‘superspreaders’ by profession. Which takes you back to the privacy parallel; each person will calculate the treadeoff for themselves (if they even see being vaccinated as a tradeoff).
UK Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jonathan Van-Tam says “…we do not yet know the impact of the vaccine on transmission of the virus. So even after you have had both doses of the vaccine you may still give Covid-19 to someone else and the chains of transmission will then continue”.
Ref: The vaccine has given us hope, but we still need to follow the rules. The Telegraph, 23 January 2021.
When is a vaccine a vaccine. The products on offer at present, Astra Zeneca, for example, is not a “vaccine”. Its is registered as “gene therapy”, thats what it is, calling it a “vaccine” is misrepresentation ( this according to https://www.lewrockwell.com… . We are told that it does not promise immunisation,. or that it will prevent others getting ill by coming in contact with us. Its success is determined by the level of anti-body we produce after getting the jab , but this antibody, it appears, does nothing to deter the virus from infecting us. How then, can antibody production be of any relevance in determining whether it is doing us any good?
The virus that produces the gene in the jab is an adeno virus, not a corona virus, The gene inserted in the adeno virus appears to be created in a lab, and not sourced from an actual sars-COV2 virus. On what basis is this jab supposed to protect us against a corona virus? Is this why we are not protected against infection after taking the jab. That being the case, why ask us to take it in the first place. Why should we want to take it?
There ought to be a discussiuon about whether this virus, pesty and nasty that is, ir really so much more dangerous than the ‘flu or pneumonia to justify these extreme measures such as the world had suffered over the last eleven months. People are suggested, more in Britain than in other comparable countries. to have an annuual ‘flu shot but there is no comparable pressure on having it, it is a choice. The same ought to be for the Covid shot which to me seems to be more quesionable in having been cooked up very quickly and under high pressure. When the maverick scientists Professor Didier Raoult suggested that a medicine that has been on the market for years against malaria might be equally efficatious against this new virus, great attempts were made to silence him. Why? Why is the state so keen on shooting this new vacine into our veins? I might be more inclined to accept the vaccine if I was told I must by powers that seems incompetent and totalitarian on almost every level.
A question for discussion. Are those who refuse the vaccine for reasons on other than demonstrable medical reasons, acting in a totally immoral way that puts their individual principals above the lives and suffering of others?
No.
Interesting. So you would argue that the lives of others are less important than your beliefs
I’m arguing that people who aren’t at serious risk of the virus shouldn’t be subjected to fast-tracked experimental coronavirus vaccination.
They shouldn’t be expected to sacrifice their natural defences, which will potentially protect them for most of their lives, and be made dependent on vaccine products which may damage their natural immunity.
I suggest it’s immoral for people to be deliberately made dependent on the vaccine industry, this raises very serious ethical questions.
And is it moral to propagate opinions that encourage e people to turn down life saving vaccines.
If the people aren’t at too much risk of the virus, the vaccines aren’t ‘life-saving’ for them are they…?
Is it moral for older people to expect younger people to be vaccinated every year of their life, and put at risk their own natural defences, remembering that older people have not borne the vaccine load that younger people have now?
Are people being given the opportunity to give their genuine ‘informed consent’ to this vaccination, to properly weigh up the risks and benefits of this medical intervention?
It’s obvious that we are not going to agree David, and we’re not the only people involved in this discussion.
I don’t think the final decision on this matter lies in your hands, this requires a broader and more thoughtful conversation.
We are coming from two totally different contexts. The UK has far, far more deaths per day than Australia has had in total since the beginning of the pandemic! . You have something like 50 deaths per million people, we have over 1600 and it gets wearing to hear every day of another 1000 or so deaths (now going down).
In general, a microbiologist yes but no I’m not a vaccine expert but it is quite simple: you either wait for the live virus ( of this virus or any other infectious agent) to infect you and you take your chances on survival, or you take a tiny bit of dead virus or part of virus which will then quite naturally stimulate your immune system to do its perfectly natural thing to recognise and fight the virus. It really isn’t rocket science! I prefer to be infected by a tiny bit of dead virus ( or other infectious agent ). What on earth is the issue . Is there anything to question.
Well get your vaccine David, sooner the better!
You are quite the authoritative moralist, David…you should wear a badge.
Your attitude seems to be one of people have the choice of taking a risk with the disease or ( a possible and unproven ) risk with a vaccine. Simple choice!
An employer should be able to ensure his employees are fit to be at work and having the vaccine is a means of achieving this end. No hard hat no job.
What a bore to rely on law
From an employer’s point of view, the vac refuseniks can’t be told to take the vac or be fired because the employer will fall foul of a tedious and expensive court case.
But the employer can prevent that vac refusenik from being in contact with customers or vaccinated employees and that can mean giving the wretch some ghastly job which also prevents him or her from being in touch with any substance or enclosed space that other employees or customers touch or might breathe in. Quite what that job might be I’m not sure but I’m pretty confident – and hopeful – that it will prove to be hell on earth
If and when that wretched creature catched coronavirus, probably they go to the NHS. I don’t how prioritisation works in the NHS. Presumably, they consider if there is a danger of saving that wretch, who can then walk the streets and catch it again and pass it on to an innocent non-wretch.
Maybe part of the NHS new routine is to vaccinate someone they’ve saved from dying, to prevent recurrence. I would be delighted to learn that the NHS decides they shan’t treat that wretch at all, since it refuses to be vaccinated.
The truth is we should neither care nor worry about this vaccine-refusenik blithely infecting other vaccine refusniks. On the contrary. This is the side B of herd immunity, which is Darwinian at heart, where side A is the survival of the fittest or smartest or worthiest and side B is the eradication of those who are the least fit, smart or worthy.
There is nothing wrong with recognising the inequality or difference between race or ethnic origin or religious belief accordingly, just as one would when recognising when a dog has rabies.
Why not just simply execute those who do not want the vaccine. As you already consider them sub human it would save a lot of time . Unless of course your post is satirical in which case have a star .
Have a star Dave 🙂
Just as a dog with rabies isn’t a sub-dog, so a human with incurable shortcomings is still a human. Unfortunately, their shortcomings might be of the kind which places them on the extreme wrong end of a normal curve of what is an asset versus a liability to society.
If you want to argue about the difficulty or hopeless subjectivity in defining that measurement then you might as as well stop now from reading my reply because you are part of society’s problem rather than solution.
If we executed those with such shortcomings, of course that would make us subhuman. (I’ve always felt that way about capital punishment, in that it makes society itself subhuman). So your thin-end-of-the-wedge or slippery-slope argument makes you handicapped in debating these issues in a grown-up way.
Moreover, if you belong to a segment whose sense of freedom, democracy and equality takes priority over allowing, say, vac refuseniks to roam freely in public places with the very real above-average risk of transmitting a life-endangering virus, then that attitude identifies you as more a liability than an asset to society.
All I’m proposing is that if one can’t save a category of people from themselves, then at the very least they ought to be prevented from dragging down the rest of a sane society that can, at best, only tolerate them, but with mounting difficulty and life-threatening fear.
I’ll give you one other example: I think it’s okay for motorists to refuse to wear a safety belt when driving a car, since there is no evidence that it endangers the life of anyone other than that motorist. But it’s not okay for motorists to refuse to have their car MOT’d, as that can endanger the lives of other motorists. Thus, if there was a nationalised insurance system for free repair of cars damaged in an accident, I would propose that it excludes those car owners who wilfully refused or neglected to get their car MOT’d.
And what if that MOT-refusenik’s car crashed into and killed someone in a MOT’d car? Then, with an NHS A&M hospital of limited time and resource, what life-saving priority would you accord between these 2 patients?
If you can’t get to mental grips with that, then your problem is not being able to distinguish between an unattainable ideal and a tough reality.
Or maybe your bigger problem is not being able to argue a point, full-stop
STOP PRESS:
I saw in The Times that only about 1% of the population are refusing to take the vaccine, so I’m making much ado about very little
I still think that, in the absence of a rationbal medicaal reason for exemption, the vac refuseniks are, at best, a waste of space on this planet
The whole idea is based on a false premise, the vaccinations do not prevent the spread of the disease, a person can be vaccinated and still carry and spread it, there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, even the “vaccine passports” being touted at the moment do nothing than show the host country that while visiting there a vaccinated person is more unlikely to die of Covid while in their country, it’s all nonsense but it is concerning that people take it so seriously as to be discussing it in government, surely it’s just a scare tactic to encourage more people to volunteer for vaccination.
Businesses should be able to choose who they employ, not the law. The law doesn’t pay peoples wages. Charlie Mullins sees a competitive advantage as well as a workplace safety measure in requesting that staff are vaccinated. The law won’t protect his business if customers started shunning the firm because they don’t want unvaccinated workers in their homes or workplaces? The same applies to Pontins, if families avoid them because they have a reputation for the poor behaviour of some guests. This isn’t something which could be fixed by the company adding extra policing of holidaymakers. I suspect Travellers or other minorities would soon be making accusations of racial discrimination if they were to be thrown out for poor conduct.
The entire argument is pointless on the basis of what Sunetra Gupta indicated that is an apparent fact: vaccination does NOT reduce transmission, it only reduces severity of disease in the vaccinated. Sunetra Gupta – On vaccines – YouTube With that in mind then vaccinated/unvaccinated is an irrelevant distinction in logical terms.
If there is a limited supply of treatment facilities they have to be rationed. And those who have chosen not to be vaccinated are quite reasonably regarded with disfavour. Javid says 9 out of 10 covid hospitalisations are not vaccinated. While our families are being denied cancer treatment.
Once lawyers get hold of this,it becomes an issue.
Common sense and reason go out the window.
We have a ” national health service “..Vaccination is advised,for public health,and individuals should sign informed consent on the vaccine.
I need to pass a driving test and have insurance to drive a car..if I don’t and I apply for a job as a driver is it discrimination?
No vaccination, no job that requires vaccination, seems sensible.
Then what next? The list will become endless.
No vaccination, no job if the job involves dealing with the public, other employees or any living person.
That’s a far more clear rule.
I assume you are trolling, to postulate such a position.
I would not support criminal sanctions against people who decide not to be vaccinated. I can also see the case that some employers might abuse their position. But I can understand why people get annoyed with those who don’t want to be vaccinated, as it’s a classic case of the free-rider, if, as seems to be the case, vaccination reduces transmission to others. To the extent there is a risk in this situation – and I don’t personally see it – it is the people being vaccinated who are carrying the risk and the opponents of vaccination (who clearly do see some risk) who are sharing the benefits. As with mask wearing, those who refuse to do so come across to other people as selfish, at a time when people should be more community-minded, not less.
this new definition of selfish – someone not doing what you think they should do – is fascinating.
Here’s a dictionary definition “concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one’s own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others”. I don’t think that really describes my view.
Actually, it perfectly describes the self-absorbed scolds, busybodies, and nascent totalitarians who value their own opinions “…without regard for others”.
How is the person who demands that others wear masks no more selfish than the person who chooses not to wear a mask? We’re now at the point where double masking is being recommended, which is a punchline in search of a joke. If a person opts for a mask, they get no quarrel from me but I would appreciate the same courtesy. When you are demanding others do you as you do, that fits right in disregarding others and seeking outcomes to one’s advantage.
There is no such thing as ‘the community’. No-one has any obligation to a random list of people.
I disagree with you Michael. There are those that totally support every vaccine that has been developed and there are those that see the risk in those vaccines especially if you are a healthy person. To say one is a free rider, is not respectful because those who look after their health and because they do, often will not support an experimental jab to make you or others feel ‘safe’ around them. And selfish is a word people are using to shame and bully other people who see just the opposite of what you are saying. Using a mask that does not stop the spread of this virus but is used to make everyone look like they are ‘potentially’ sick.
And the only community-minded that is needed is stay home if you are sick, like we always did before.
Turns out that people transmit this one quite often without feeling ‘sick’, so that’s not useful advice either.
No need for criminal sanctions. Just a complete bar from any exit from their domicile, be it to go to the job, the store, the theatre, travel, whatever.
You were born too late-the Stasi had a place for you…
Forces families when I was a child were subjected to compulsory vaccinations against infectious diseases for overseas postings. I remember queuing up for a compulsory cholera booster in Singapore when there was an outbreak of cholera. I should imagine many countries still demand evidence of vaccination from travellers. Why are some British people so precious about an essential health measure. As for comparing compulsory vaccination to free speech, words fail me.
“…words fail me.”
Perhaps that is why you don’t see the significance of free speech as an analogy 🙂
This argument about free speech plagues these columns. We do not have free speech in the UK and that has been that has been the case for as long as I remember. We might not be sent to the gulag for saying something but we can definitely be sent to other places. like Coventry. I think the reason everyone is so sensitive about free speech is that they are sitting now (like me) in front of computers and their life is their computer.
If I say (please note that this is an example) that all ginger people should be imprisoned, it might not be against the law but it won’t stop ginger people from attacking my house the next day with pots of paint. That is not free speech.
It’s the experimental nature of this vaccine that has people worried about it being made compulsory.
OK, but it’s worth asking a couple of questions to those who are vaccine sceptics. What evidence would persuade you that the vaccine is safe? how many people do you think would die before that evidence becomes available, who would not die if they were vaccinated now? At the risk of influencing how people might answer, my suspicions are that the answers will be (a) not very specific, but very unrealistic (in the sense that disproving the existence of some sort of deity to everyone’s satisfaction has proved impossible) and (b) no figure given, lots of stuff to the effect that the vaccine may be more dangerous than the relatively mild, flu-like covid virus.
Attempts to pursue rationality with anti-vax wax is fruitless. They are mostly quite stupid people who are anti-science.
First, I’m not a vaccine sceptic in the general sense. Perhaps you didn’t mean to imply I was, but just to be clear about that. Second, I’m not against anyone getting the vaccine. I’m against it being forced on everybody. I do understand why you’re asking these questions, but you’re jumping the gun and making a lot of assumptions. At what point I would personally get this jab is yet to be determined; I’m by no means anywhere near the top of the list.
It is completely irrelevant what the nature of the vaccine is. The principle stands whatever the jab, an employer cannot retrospectively enforce compulsory vaccination upon their workforce. Was it in their Ts&C’s? It is just plain wrong.
There is nothing experimental about the several vaccines. All have been shown to be effective in extensive clinical trials.
I think you are being disingenuous here. You know exactly what I mean, regardless of quibbling over what constitutes “experimental” from an academic / clinical trial POV: it is a type of treatment which is different in nature, and much newer, compared to the vaccinations the general population have all had (except for a tiny minority), and, anti-vaxxers aside, have all accepted as a normal part of healthcare.
I completely agree…
Every job I have had made the flu vaccine mandatory. I got the vaccine, and never got the flu. It’s time to take COVID seriously – make the vaccine mandatory. Those who do not want the vaccine are mostly quite stupid people who don’t understand evidence-based medicine.
Was this within your employment contract? If so then fine, but please do not think it reasonable to foist a vaccine upon those who have not agreed to it. The fact it is a Covid vaccine is completely irrelevant.
No, not in the contract. Simply stated as a condition of continued employment. It’s a perfectly reasonable stipulation.
Yes if you agree to it beforehand…
What is your evidence that people who don’t want the vaccine are mostly quite stupid? How do you define a “quite stupid person”? Is it based on IQ score?
Given the relatively low take up among certain ethnic groups in the UK as of now you should be very careful using language of that nature. There are numerous reasons for people to not want to take the vaccine and whatever your or my views on their decision is, if you think calling them “stupid” is going to help the situation then you probably need to think about your own level of intelligence. Take yourself off to the local library and spend some time in the history section reading about the very bad things that have happened in the past when labels such as “stupid” are attached to individuals who aren’t doing as the majority demands. If you think the COVID-19 pandemic is the worst thing that has ever happened in the history of the world I can assure you that you are wrong.