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Scepticism is not always the answer Question life all you want – but it has no meaning without our shared humanity

Many believe the Covid vaccine is a way to implant microchipsCredit: Jeff J Mitchell/Getty.

Many believe the Covid vaccine is a way to implant microchipsCredit: Jeff J Mitchell/Getty.


January 21, 2021   6 mins

When I was an undergraduate, I had a strange recurring dream: What if I was the only person in the world? I imagined a reality in which every person I encountered was merely a prop in some elaborate masquerade designed to fool me that other humans existed. In this world, when the people were out of sight they would just stop, motionless, like machines that had temporarily performed their function.

The dream tended to be structured around me trying to catch them out. I would stand at the corner of a building and very quickly stick my head around the corner – quickly enough, I hoped, to find them still motionless, surprised by my stealth. But they were always too quick for me, always one step ahead. I could never expose this plot. But nor could I discount the possibility that it was nonetheless true.

This strange dream was, I suspect, partly inspired by a woman I met in Hinchingbrooke Hospital, where I helped out on the psycho-geriatric ward during my university holidays. The woman in question believed that her body was hollow and completely filled with urine. She would only sleep upright, for fear that she would drown. When encouraged to lie prone she would begin to panic, coughing and spluttering, with genuine fear in her eyes.

It wasn’t that she was stupid; in fact, far from it. She was still able to complete The Times’ crossword, for instance. But however much I tried to reason her out of her belief – genuinely held, I was convinced of that – she had a considered response. It drove me to distraction that I wasn’t able to find a way through her inter-locking explanations. Surely reason could expose such an obviously mistaken view of the world? But as hard as I tried, I was never able to puncture it. At turns angry and frustrated, I eventually gave up and spent my days holding her hand and talking with her about her grandchildren.

Both of these memories returned to me after reading Freddie Sayers’ recent piece on the importance of scepticism. He was, of course, completely correct that to uphold a critical approach that requires us not to accept arguments on face value. But what happens when scepticism starts to challenge the very fabric of our lives, when it becomes so all-consuming that even the generally agreed mechanisms of explanation are themselves called into question?

The careful, methodical, empirical steps of the scientific method were unconvincing to the woman who believed she was filled with urine. She was surrounded by scientific equipment and various monitors. But all of these were a deception, she believed. In colloquial terms, we generally describe those who are distanced from rational explanation as “mad”. But to reach for this word hardly solves the matter.

Yes, many brilliant people are called mad when they first question received authority. But it is also the sort of thing said by conspiracy theorists the world over. From people who think lizards control the world to those who believe the Covid vaccine is a way to implant microchips, the language of scepticism is often employed to justify their doubt that things are really as presented. “You don’t question things enough,” they say. “You are too credulous.” This is both the language of genuine intellectual inquiry, and yet also that of the mad and the bad.

Scepticism turns out to be a remarkably tricky business. Generally speaking, we imagine some boundary beyond which scepticism should not pass, or some format that limits the sceptic’s operation. For Freddie, that format is the scientific method. But there have been many who would even apply scepticism to that methodology. And indeed, if we challenge the scientific method to justify itself, we might reasonably ask that it does not do so in its own terms: the scientific method cannot supply its own justification without circularity.

Something other than itself is required as a means of justification. And this introduces the idea that, with radical scepticism, the questions never end. As Wittgenstein famously asked, at what point is the spade turned, and solid ground is revealed? At what point do the questions run out? Steady on, we say. There must be a point at which the questions end. But isn’t this precisely the kind of limit about which the sceptic complains?

You may think that these questions are a bit odd. Indeed, they are. And I will return to that. But it is worth noting that modern philosophy begins at precisely this point. Most university philosophy courses begin with Descartes and his methodology of radical doubt. Doubt anything that can be doubted, he argues, and see what survives. His famous answer to this was that the only thing you have left is the “I” – even when you doubt something, there has to be something doing the doubting. Doubt requires a doubter. Cogito, ergo sum. This is one of the most influential sentences of modern thought. And it is because modern philosophy begins at this point that the “oddness” of radical scepticism begins.

Because, whether or not you agree with Descartes, the Cogito method still leaves a lot more to establish, not least the existence of other people beyond myself. I may know I exist. But do I know that you do? Descartes used God to fill that gap. He believed that God, whose existence could be rationally demonstrated, would not deceive us, therefore guaranteeing a kind of bridge from my existence to that of others. But, in time, the God answer proved to be unconvincing. I suspect this was what was behind my dream. I had been reading too much Descartes and swallowed his methodology of radical doubt. Through the lens of his universal scepticism, the world seemed like a very odd place indeed.

To complicate matters, there are occasions where we can’t really know another person’s thoughts and feelings. I currently have a headache. But others may suspect I am claiming to have a headache to get out of the washing up – and they have no way to check if I am telling the truth. My pain is not accessible to others in ways that make Descartes’ challenge about the existence of other minds seem credible. At the very least, it feels like the basis on which radical doubt may have some purchase. This is why thinkers like Wittgenstein talk a great deal about pain.

Can radical scepticism be refuted? The person who, to my mind, has done most to examine this question is the American philosopher Stanley Cavell, who passed away a few years ago. Cavell thought the sting of scepticism can be removed, but not using Descartes’ framework. He argued that Descartes began in the wrong place and so set off on an impossible quest. For Cavell, the constant “how do you know?” of the radical sceptic is a question that is in search of the wrong sort of answer. This is because human beings do not begin as individual units, ontologically distanced from each other. Our individuality is a derivative concept, one that takes shape over time.

Instead, the original basis for human life is community; or, at least, a sense of togetherness. The mother breastfeeding her child is in no doubt that her baby exists, and nor does it make any sense for the child to doubt the existence of the mother. Doubt, if it enters the picture, comes much later. What comes first is not a kind of intellectual certainty about others, but an implicit acknowledgement upon which everything else is based. This is crucial. Doubt and scepticism only make sense if there is an already basic understanding of human identification. We begin with the acknowledgment of others – and only after that do we begin to ask whether, for instance, a person is telling us the truth about their inner life.

In other words, the problem with my dream was that it converted something that is constitutive of the human condition, our living alongside others, into a hurdle that needs to be overcome intellectually. To put it simply: in real life, trust necessarily precedes doubt. Not a credulous trust in arguments that demonstrate the other’s existence, but a recognition that something other than intellectual arguments is the basis of human solidarity.

All of this may seem unnecessarily abstract. But, in fact, it can be remarkably straightforward. As Freddie rightly points out, David Hume acknowledged that “amidst all of your philosophy, be still a man”. In other words, scepticism is a human activity and one that must operate on the basis that common humanity provides. Too many thinkers, and philosophers especially, have not appreciated the wisdom here, and have tried to construct all knowledge on the basis of reason alone.

For all its apparent attractiveness, this way madness lies. For without this basic acknowledgement of shared humanity, nothing can ever be known with certainty. And this opens up a gap between the day-to-day operation of human life — chatting in the street, going about our shopping, even making love — and the increasingly bizarre questions that philosophers ask each other. To quote Hume at length:

“Where am I, or what? From what causes do I derive my existence, and to what condition shall I return? … Since Reason is incapable of dispelling these clouds, Nature herself suffices to that purpose, and cures me of this philosophical melancholy and delirium, either by relaxing this bent of mind, or by some avocation, and lively impression of my senses, which obliterate all these chimeras.

“I dine, I play a game of backgammon, I converse, and am merry with my friends. And when, after three or four hours’ amusement, I would return to these speculations, they appear so cold, and strained, and ridiculous, that I cannot find in my heart to enter into them any farther.”


Giles Fraser is a journalist, broadcaster and Vicar of St Anne’s, Kew.

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James Rowlands
James Rowlands
3 years ago

I don’t think it is skepticism so much as not wanting to live their lives by accepting a standard of risk set by others.

COVID is a killer but living with it should be an individual’s choice and decision regarding risk.

E.g. A few years ago I knew a disabled guy who asked me to take him out in my double canoe in the sea. When he arrived a storm had recently passed and the waves were huge and cold as it was winter.

He got cold caught pneumonia and stayed in hospital for a week as he was seriously ill. When he got out he thanked me for giving him “the most exciting 30 minutes of his life” fighting huge waves that either totally immersed our small boat or flung us towards the shore with huge energy.

Choice, freedom or nanny state. Life or death. Our governments by trying to preserve life at all costs are giving us one option, slavery and death.

Kathy Prendergast
Kathy Prendergast
3 years ago
Reply to  James Rowlands

I fail to understand how a cold virus with an overall mortality rate of less than 1 percent is a “killer”. If that makes me a sceptic, then so be it. I don’t deny that this virus is dangerous to the very elderly and people with weak immune systems. But still, even people over 70 who get COVID have a survival rate of at least 94 percent. How does that stack up against pandemic diseases of the past, like polio, Spanish Flu, smallpox, and bubonic plague?

Richard Lyon
Richard Lyon
3 years ago

Well, exactly. As school teachers devise ever more elaborate schemes to sit at home with a box of Quality Street and Netflix rather than pursue their vocation, we seem to have overlooked the fact that while 388 people of school teacher age died in 2020 of COVID-19, 955 people of the same age died in 2019 of road traffic accidents. Making this observation is, apparently, what marks one as a “sceptic”.

J StJohn
J StJohn
3 years ago
Reply to  Richard Lyon

In our area, even the refuse collectors have got in on the act. That’s the entire public sector conspiring to have an extended holiday rota, on full pay, while the rest of us try to get things done.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Richard Lyon

Teachers just like many others are genuinely scared for their safety. They shop and look after elderly relatives or maybe they’re vulnerable themselves. Your attitude is unfounded and quite poisonous. Is there any need for it?

Hairy Scot
Hairy Scot
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Teachers, like many others, are scared because the BBC and other media outlets have been peddling a relentless and hysterical output of fear. Over the last 3 days each BBC news bulletin which I have seen has incorporated an overhead shot of a grave being prepared for a body, following conversations with a hospital mortician. Most of us can agree that Covid is an unpleasant illness for many and sadly fatal for some. But we really need to get a grip and retain some sense of proportion. This nation used to keep calm and carry on in the face of far greater dangers than Covid. What the hell have we become?

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Hairy Scot

People took precautions during The Blitz. They had a keep calm and carry on attitude but they didn’t advertise their whereabouts to the Luftwaffe. Those that did would have been condemned as fools or traitors. We have retained a sense of proportion. I am not fearful for my life but I do worry about infecting vulnerable people and indirectly harming them.

Robin Banks
Robin Banks
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Yes, it’s called healthy scepticism. For 30 years schools taught that light travelled through the æther. Thank goodness for sceptics.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Robin Banks

Healthy scepticism could be more delicately expressed, if you want people to take it seriously. Otherwise it just looks like partisan point scoring for likes and a hit of dopamine.

Kathy Prendergast
Kathy Prendergast
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

The majority of teachers don’t look after elderly relatives, or have an elderly person living in their home. The majority are not “vulnerable”. That majority has no damn excuse not to be in the classroom. Sorry if such frankness is perceived as “poisonous”.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

They majority aren’t vulnerable nor have responsibilities? Do you have evidence to support this claim? I know people that work in schools and they do have responsibilities for elderly people. My evidence is anecdotal but then again I am not the one condemning a whole profession.

James Moss
James Moss
3 years ago
Reply to  Richard Lyon

Well actually that would mark you out as either a liar or simply mistaken rather than as a sceptic. Not only is the number who have actually died from Covid whilst there HAVE been restrictions not the correct comparison to make, but also that is not the true figure.

You would also have to consider that the restrictions have reduced road accident deaths too (not that I want to make an argument to perpetuate them so as keep road traffic accidents down) – thus you need to think your comparison through a little more carefully.

Edit: 7 downticks – it is surprising how many of Unherd’s frequenters have such a poor understanding of numbers.

Stan Glib
Stan Glib
3 years ago

I’ve already explained to you the difference elsewhere and you’re just choosing not to understand apparently?

If a virus spreads too quickly, a 1% deathrate would be colossal, if too many have it at once.

On top of that, once hospitals are full, that death rate does not stay at 1%. If the virus hospitalization rate is ~5% (to pick a number), and then hospitals become full, your death rate is now closer to 5%.

You’re also comparing it to viruses that, well, some of them appeared when there were no planes. You have to factor in how connected the planet is now. It makes an unfathomable difference.

As a sceptic you’re remarkably happy to conclude that it’s just a cold – we have absolutely no idea of the long term effects yet. If you want a bit of scepticism.

Terry M
Terry M
3 years ago
Reply to  Stan Glib

In the US the 3rd most common cause of death is medical accidents. They are just as likely to be safer at home.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Stan Glib

Everything you wrote is predicated is the absolute worst case scenarios – if this and if that. Well, there’s not been that if and there is scant evidence of it occurring. There is more spread now because this is the time of year when respiratory viruses are more common. Hospitals are not and never have been full, at least not in the US. Here, thousands of employees were furloughed and thousands more people were effectively denied care when the medical community treated covid as the only condition there was.

Stan Glib
Stan Glib
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

My response was to Kathy Prendergast who doesn’t understand why this is different to a cold.

Regarding hospitals – certainly, my impression will be different as I live in London and have friends who are doctors and nurses working in hospitals across the city, and other cities like Cardiff and Sheffield. If you’re doubtful, read accounts from staff in hospitals there. Things may well be different in the ICU ward on the remote pacific island where you live.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Stan Glib

Things may well be different in the ICU ward on the remote pacific island where you live.
so saying something ridiculous is supposed to be meaningful? In the US, hospitals have NOT been overrun. Again, they laid off thousands of people because anything not related to covid was treated as elective. There will be more deaths from that.

No, the virus is not the cold. It’s not the black death, either. And raising ICU beds requires either not knowing or not caring that those are in limited supply to start with, and here their number is regulated by the govt. No hospital has hundreds of such beds.

Stan Glib
Stan Glib
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

There are other places in the world, outside where you live. Everything you say may be right for all I know. But unless you live on an unreachable, remote island, you are probably connected to other parts of the world via transport, no?

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Hospitals in the US laid off thousands of people? That’s a very different experience to the UK where more clinical staff were brought in and hospitals have been very busy. Admittedly, a lot of outpatient activity has moved to being online or by telephone. During the Summer, when there was a reduction in Covid cases in hospitals, work resumed on trying to treat as many non-Covid elective patients as possible.

angeshare12
angeshare12
3 years ago
Reply to  Stan Glib

No we don’t yet know the long term effect of the “vaccine” either

Kelly Mitchell
Kelly Mitchell
3 years ago
Reply to  Stan Glib

Wow. Now I’m scared. Since those arguments apply theoretically to 1) flu 2) Ebola 3) H1N1 4) Mers, etc. etc. shouldn’t we simply just SHUT IT ALL DOWN FOREVER!! Yes. End society so that no one ever dies by infectious disease ever again.
We can all die of heart disease, cancer and diabetes instead while we cower in fear watching Netflix and porn.
That’ll be a better world.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Kelly Mitchell

Do you believe scientists all over the world are lying? I am genuinely interested to hear how you interpret current events? Why are governments of all different flavours following scientific advice and coming to broadly similar conclusions?

Kathy Prendergast
Kathy Prendergast
3 years ago
Reply to  Stan Glib

Who decides how many is “too many” to be acceptable? The Spanish Flu killed 5% of the world’s population. It was horrific, but still, the world didn’t end. This virus is far, far less deadly than the Spanish Flu, and we have far more advanced healthcare systems in place than in 1918-19. I accept that this virus spreads quickly. But that would have been the most sensible way to defeat it, by letting it run its course so most of the population could develop natural immunity (and thus be unable to infect the most vulnerable), and just accepting the unpleasant reality that the severe illness and death rate among the frail elderly was probably going to suddenly go way up (but not for long), and ensure everything was in place to deal with this. We should not underestimate the ability of human beings to cope with disasters. What do you think would happen if, for example, there was some disaster on the scale of, say, the 1916 Halifax Explosion? Not just hundreds, but thousands injured and needing urgent care? Would the healthcare system “collapse” under the strain? I don’t think so. It would rise to the challenge, and cope. Things would be terrible for awhile, but eventually, normalcy would return. Modern, advanced healthcare systems are supposed to be able to cope with temporary crises like these. It’s the job of healthcare workers to deal with them. And unlike with things like explosions or earthquakes, they had fair warning. They could have hired (with all that stimulus money now being sent out to people whose livelihoods the lockdowns destroyed) large numbers of additional temp staff. They could have set up mobile or temporary hospitals, or turned existing buildings over to healthcare use (as was done in WW I, to care for the injured). They could have taken advantage of religious charities like the one in NYC that set up tent hospitals, of Navy hospital ships like the one Trump sent to NYC and which was never used. The resources and the people were there to deal with it. When did we just stop expecting people in the healthcare field to do their jobs, even at times when they’re extremely difficult? And cheering them on in their empty workplaces while they made stupid dance videos? Back in 1918, doctors and nurses were real heroes; these ones aren’t. They’re jokes.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

I don’t understand how people are still confused. Covid-19’s danger has always been its ability to infect large numbers of people and rapidly spread throughout the population. When vast numbers are infected even low percentages of hospitalisations translates into a torrent of patients requiring hospital treatment or being placed into intensive care. At a certain point the healthcare system collapses, therefore, no sick person can be treated whether a trauma patient from a car accident or someone suffering cancer. The fallout from economic lockdowns is less than in this scenario.

Stan Glib
Stan Glib
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Yeah it’s baffling. Although, millions of people probably aren’t confused at all, but aren’t particularly loud.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

When exactly is this disaster supposed to occur? Last spring, US hospitals laid off thousands of employees in anticipation of a mass wave of patients that never came. What happened was thousands of other people effectively being denied care because what they had was not covid.

The virus is going to wind through the population as it is. Measures that make that process as long and as difficult as possible don’t help. They create other problems that will be manifested over the coming months and years.

Stan Glib
Stan Glib
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

You’re just demonstrating here that you haven’t grasped the problem

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Zoom in on New York where the healthcare system was nearly overwhelmed in March-April 2020. The city was brought back from the brink by more adherence to social distancing and therefore reducing transmission rates, eventually easing the burden on the healthcare system in the city.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

No, it wasn’t. NYC is where a naval ship was brought in that no one used. It’s where the Javits Center was turned into a hospital and later shut down for lack of use. It’s in the same state where infected people were put into nursing homes with predictable results.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Do you believe that increased human-to-human contact increases the transmission rate of Covid-19?

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

That’s true of any virus, but human to human contact is not two people crossing paths in the bread aisle and transmission does not equal death. I do not understand why context is such a difficult concept.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

The virus can be spread via water droplets exhaled by someone who is sick. Transmission could easily happen in a bread aisle but is more likely in confined spaces and depending upon how long someone is exposed. I never stated transmission equals death. More contact between humans leads to higher transmission rates, resulting in more hospitalisations and finally more deaths.

Douglas Scott
Douglas Scott
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

The excess deaths in New York were mostly due to poor management of the care home situation.

CJ Henderson
CJ Henderson
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

An example of rampant and devastating Covid infections is occurring right now. I read today (the Australian newspaper) that in Jakarta hospitals have run out of ICU beds, families have to search for a care bed themselves, and people are dying before they get attention – one instance reported of a man dying in a taxi after being turned away from 10 hospitals. Both a Professor of medicine, and one of the country’s top epidemiologists, say the health system has collapsed because the government avoided lockdowns.

Ideally lockdowns eliminate the virus. More likely they slow its spread to allow hospitals to cope. Clearly this pandemic can’t be ignored nor it’s potential dismissed.

Stan Glib
Stan Glib
3 years ago
Reply to  CJ Henderson

I look forward to Unherd’s reporting on this

Kelly Mitchell
Kelly Mitchell
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Because this hypothetical scenario is TRUE of almost any serious disease. We realize that life and society is about trade-offs, not absolutes. If your argument is valid as a ‘shut it down’ argument, then society should be perpetually in lockdown, without freedoms, without personal choice.
Yes, you’re right. It’s all too scary. let’s hide forever.
On the other hand, f**k your cowardice.

Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
3 years ago

Much easier to “accept” deaths in the past – no treatment available.
If there were no hospitals full of trained staff and equipment, right now, there would be no issue.
It is an expectation problem.
Incidentally I think your 94% figure should possibly be followed with the words “with ongoing health issues”

If assisted dying was legal in the UK and everyone had advanced directives maybe expectations would be different.

larry tate
larry tate
3 years ago

It´s my own predicament. This virus does not kill randomly. It kills the weak, the obese and the elderly. If one isn´t in any of these categories, why be held hostage of the Paranoid State ?
But there´s no way things are going to change. The media is having a field day, the experts are gods and we are becoming spineless creatures, moluscs instead of proud human beings.

Meghan Kathleen Jamieson
Meghan Kathleen Jamieson
3 years ago

A lot of the concern has to do with the effect on medical services more generally. That’s not supposition, we can all see where this has happened, and would lead to all kinds of problems for people affected by people with other diseases or injuries.

That’s a collective problem, it’s not just about the choices around individual risk. THat’s not to say we should question restrictions, I think we need to carefully maintain a questioning stance. But a charchterising it as similar making an individual decision that will have little effect on others just isn’t that accurate.

Judy Johnson
Judy Johnson
3 years ago
Reply to  James Rowlands

You are right but, however dangerous or overrated Covid might be, the problem is that our choices affect others and we do not have the right to choose their risks simply in order to choose our own.

J StJohn
J StJohn
3 years ago
Reply to  Judy Johnson

Living a life governed by other people’s perception of their own risks isn’t a life. It’s slavery.

Dave H
Dave H
3 years ago
Reply to  James Rowlands

The problem with the “individual choice” argument, as it applies to communicable disease, is that your actions affect others too.

Your (and others) choice to carry on as normal may keep the pandemic burning longer, making it dangerous to for vulnerable people for much longer.

You can argue about the importance of protecting them, but you can’t pretend you live in a vacuum.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Dave H

Your (and others) choice to carry on as normal may keep the pandemic burning longer, making it dangerous to for vulnerable people for much longer.
That is exactly backwards. The draconian measures bent on preventing healthy people from being around other healthy people is what prolongs this. And you are totally discounting the impact that the various measures taken are having and will have down the road.

queensrycherule
queensrycherule
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Correct, sir.

Eloise Burke
Eloise Burke
3 years ago

Please explain why preventing healthy people from being around other healthy people – which certainly intensifies the misery – prolongs the pandemic.

eleanorhazleton
eleanorhazleton
3 years ago
Reply to  Dave H

I am an older person with health problems. However, I am against the lockdowns. As far as I am concerned it is up to me to take care of myself… I am in favour of the Great Barrington Declaration

Tom Fox
Tom Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  Dave H

Also, the idea that a large percentage of the vulnerable, should protect themselves and let everyone else go about as normal ignores the fact that large numbers of the most vulnerable are dependent on people who can easily become infected by you and I going about our normal routine. Huge numbers of vulnerable people were in fact infected by asymptomatic or very mild cases who worked in care homes, hospitals and by family members visiting or providing care. Virtually nowhere, were care home residents immune to infection by those looking after them.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  James Rowlands

Humans do not exist alone and isolated. We depend upon each other. Civilisation’s very essence is constraining as unlimited choice would lead to anarchy and precisely the type of world none of us want to live in. Our response to Covid-19 is a measured response to a clear threat. We should accept certain limits on our civil liberties so that we can defeat this threat. It’s not a case of slavery or death but cooperation so that our civilisation can be maintained and strengthened. It is a scoundrel who shouts about their civil liberties when a hurricane approaches or required to defend their homeland from a foreign enemy. No one is enjoying these restrictions but my God, have some resolve and a sense of perspective.

queensrycherule
queensrycherule
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

The response is not measured, it is communist, imported from a totalitarian state that has concentration campls.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

What does communism have to do with the fact that limiting human contact reduces the spread of infectious diseases?

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Perspective you say. Like a fatality rate of <0.1%, most of which is concentrated among people 80 and up WITH other health issues? Or maybe the growing incidence of mental health issues, abuse cases, and overdoses in acting as if this is the new black death?

I agree totally about perspective. It’s been sorely lacking in this. The virus can be horrible for certain populations. And now we’re starting to see talk and studies about the impact of lockdown culture on otherwise healthy people.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Are older people less deserving of the right to life? I really don’t see that age matters all that much. Peoples lives are being cut short by many years.

It’s ironic that commentators agreeing with you claim that people supporting lockdown as a last resort are communists given your totalitarian disregard for people’s lives because they’re older.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

I never said they were less deserving, but when you are 83 and in poor health, what is being accomplished and at what cost? Because there are always costs. A lot of lives are being cut short, many of them through govt policy that is causing great economic harm that will manifest in health outcomes.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

What is being accomplished? Fewer families than otherwise are suffering the pain of losing loved ones.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

When someone is 80+ and in bad health, that pain is already evident. Have you had an aging relative struggling with various things? It’s not fun for anyone, least of all that person. You can delay the inevitable for some of these families, but it conveniently ignores the needless pain being inflicted on those harmed by mandates and policy measures.

Dorothy Slater
Dorothy Slater
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

I so wish people who are pro lockdowns and other extreme measures would stop using those of us who are old to justify their own fears and agendas. I never knew so any people were concerned about killing grandma.

I am 83 and I must say I am amazed at the number of people who are suddenly so interested in keeping us alive and kicking. Where the heck has everyone been when oldsters are in nursing homes totally alone with not one visitor. As a senior walker in a biking city, I am one of those slow folks who is in the way of the bikers racing down the sidewalk giving me the finger as they pass. And how many really want to visit grandma since she is hard of hearing and “lives in the past”

I expect that the readers and commentators of Unherd are kinder and gentler to those of us who are in our golden years. Bu don’t worry about us – most of my friends just want is to be allowed out to enjoy the life we have left We are willing to take the risk.

The

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Dorothy Slater

“I never knew so any people were concerned about killing grandma.”

I must say that I feel concerned for the wellbeing of all my fellow citizens when it comes to matters of health, life and death. Their age does not matter and it never should. No one has the right to take actions that endanger everyone else because of their own bloody mindedness.

I am not scared nor have an agenda. Honestly, I do not feel any fear about Covid-19. The effects of lockdown are infintely worse for me and my business. Would you just allow infections to climb and risk a total healthcare collapse? I just cannot see how this is a realistic position. Posturing costs nothing when you know you wouldn’t have to take responsiblity for your possibly disastrous policy suggestion.

Katy Randle
Katy Randle
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

No one is enjoying these restrictions

LOL! I suggest you have a look below the line in any Guardian* article on the subject. Stuffed to the gunnels with misanthropes who are rejoicing that they no longer have to have any contact with other humans.

* Other publications available, but it’s the one I’m most familiar with.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Katy Randle

Comments making light of a horrible situation are natural. It’s a way of coping. Scraping the Guardian comment section for ironic comments as proof that people are enjoying lockdown. Truly ridiculous.

Katy Randle
Katy Randle
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

If by “scraping” you mean usually the most upvoted comments on any relevant discussion, and by “ironic” you mean honest statements that they love lockdown and never want to return to “normal”, then we’re agreed.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Katy Randle

I know introverts who’ve made a similar joke. It’s irony. You’re being dense.

There’s quite a commitment on Unherd by many commentators to deliberately misunderstand and misrepresent anyone they disagree with. It is painfully obvious what you’re doing.

Katy Randle
Katy Randle
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

In what way do I disagree with them? They are entitled to their opinion. If I misrepresent them, it is because I take their words, repeated again and again, as meaning what they say.

I would appreciate an explanation of how you are certain it is irony.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Katy Randle

Guardian readers are not an army of misanthropic lockdown zealots celebrating the end of human society as we know it. It’s a cheap smear with the subtext that left-leaning people support lockdown as a policy on its own and not as a response to a global pandemic. It’s farcical. You’re better than this.

Edit: I have heard people make similar jokes and it has always been a joke, mostly. Even the biggest introverts miss their family. I often laugh that I’ve saved money from not commuting. I suppose you’d take my comments at face value?

Katy Randle
Katy Randle
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Given that I myself am a Guardian reader, I am self-evidently not trying to paint all of us with the same brush! It is in no way a “cheap smear”; the subtext you appear to see is your own invention.

I simply countered your initial assertion that “No-one is enjoying these restrictions” with concrete evidence to the contrary. You believe that all those stating that they love lockdown are making ironic jokes; I think they mean what they say. As this is a matter of interpretation, there is surely no way to come to an agreement on this.

And if you say you have saved money from not commuting, why would I doubt you? Presumably it’s a statement of fact.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Katy Randle

My apologies. I should not have made assumptions.

Nonetheless, were I to write on the Guardian message board:

“Lockdown has not been all bad. I’ve enjoyed my own company and saving money on commuting.”

You would interpret this as an endorsement of lockdown rather than making light of a stressful situation?

Duncan Hunter
Duncan Hunter
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Tosh!

Edward Hamer
Edward Hamer
3 years ago

Possibly the biggest problem with debating the Covid measures is that everything is about prediction, probabilities and estimation: we are trying to avoid encountering any worst-case scenarios in practice, so obviously we can’t empirically test all the claims about what might happen or what should have happened. Those discussions therefore become quite sterile.

The ethical questions can be discussed in the absence of hard facts, so I think sceptics are more persuasive when they stick to those. If we agreed for the sake of argument that all SAGE’s predictions are correct, we could still form our own views of what is right to do on that basis. Whether we should keep schools open even if doing so is KNOWN to kill, say, 30,000 people is an ethical question which involves value judgements. The problem is that modern politics is wary of value judgements and ethical argument, so these matters don’t receive much public attention.

This also means that ethical questions can come back to bite us later because we fail to answer them in the first instance. For instance, lots of people now say publicly that our individual freedom to live as we choose should be constrained by quite remote indirect effects of our behaviour (e.g. infecting a vulnerable person several links down the chain). That has always been a conservative argument for banning divorce: family breakdown harms lots of people you’ve never met, so your decision to get a divorce is not really a private act. It won’t be a surprise if common-good arguments like that receive renewed vigour from this crisis.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Edward Hamer

Really interesting comment.

Katy Randle
Katy Randle
3 years ago
Reply to  Edward Hamer

Good points. I don’t think modern politics is so much wary of ethical arguments as ignoring them completely in favour of emotive anecdotes. Therein lies the problem. No amount of ethical consideration and appeal to the principles of moral philosophy can outdo the appeal of “You will kill granny!” and crying nurses.

Meghan Kathleen Jamieson
Meghan Kathleen Jamieson
3 years ago
Reply to  Edward Hamer

Politics doesn’t want to make value judgements because it seems to require them to make decisions. If they can claim they simply do what science tells them is right, they avoid any responsibility for the results. This has helped create a real misunderstanding about the capabilities and role of science in the public, however.

Caroline Watson
Caroline Watson
3 years ago

There is a difference between believing that COVID-19 doesn’t exist, and in the delusions of such as Piers Corbyn, and believing that lockdowns are an appropriate and proportionate response, or masks anything other than a pointless and occasionally dangerous placebo. The current backlash against scepticism is conflating the two, and that is why it is dangerous and must be resisted.
Being sceptical does not mean being anti vaccine and there will be tremendous pressure from parts of the population that have been quite pro lockdown up to now for us to come out of it as soon as the vaccine begins to take effect. We must do that. There must then be a full inquiry into the management of the pandemic, including the impact of lockdowns on the economy, on mental health and suicide, on the prevalence of domestic violence, and on the education and prospects of the young. Lockdown must never again be a default policy and we owe it to our young people to ensure that it isn’t.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago

Sane people realize there is a difference; those with agendas dismiss anyone the distinction as living in tinfoil hat land. It’s a common tactic, very much like the ‘denier’ label aimed at anyone who questions the dogma that govt officials can somehow tame the climate by policy.

What’s most galling is that skepticism is supposed to be in the DNA of anyone in media. Yet, that has been bred out of the species, replaced by an activist gene in which journos carry one side’s water and condemn the other side. That leaves us with misinformation or disinformation, neither of which is good.

Raymond Morace
Raymond Morace
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Media corporations, are owned by other international corporations. The journalist’s genetic makeup is messaging to enhance those corporate profits.

LUKE LOZE
LUKE LOZE
3 years ago

If this countries elite had the intellectual and moral bravery to carry out a genuine inquiry into the Covid response, then we’d be in a much different and better country.

Richard Lyon
Richard Lyon
3 years ago

Science is scepticism about hypotheses. Pseudo-science is denial of scepticism. Cults find it necessary to eliminate scepticism because of the inconvenient fact that you can’t convince people of an absurdity for ever.

J StJohn
J StJohn
3 years ago
Reply to  Richard Lyon

Hence the Christian Saint; Thomas the Sceptic

davetate.dave
davetate.dave
3 years ago
Reply to  Richard Lyon

Scepticism ceases being useful when it persists in the face of contradictory evidence, however.

Duncan Hunter
Duncan Hunter
3 years ago
Reply to  davetate.dave

If that evidence is sound, peer reviewed and made public – ie transparent – then yes. If it is distorted, manipulated or withheld then absolutely not. For all the invocations of following science / “the” science, to shout down scepticism is very unscientific.

There used to be a time when the MSM was true to its profession and offered scrutiny, based in large part on scepticism, and analysis. Now they don’t even display curiosity, swallow and regurgitate everything their state paymasteres feed them. Look where that’s getting us…

Douglas Scott
Douglas Scott
3 years ago
Reply to  davetate.dave

Evidence is always contradictory. Sceptisism is the default, not something to be proven. If you want to propose an intervention that places a burden on your fellow citizen, the burden is on you to positively prove that it does what it says on the tin and put your signature on it (i.e. take responsibility if it is wrong). If we stuck to that principle, you would see a lot fewer claims of consensus. Lack of accountability has become a major issue.

Andy Burrows
Andy Burrows
3 years ago

This article is an argument against itself. Change ‘sides’ and the same logic applies. Forget the emotive descriptors that set out to extinguish debate ( the use of the expression ‘conspiracy theorist’ being a prime example). This is about being open to discussion and investigation..the essence of science. Now the scientific ‘debate ‘ appears to be solely about creating more abstract arguments about ‘why I am right and you are wrong’. We must be open to questioning assumptions at all times ..and never more so than now.

J StJohn
J StJohn
3 years ago
Reply to  Andy Burrows

What passes as scientific debate these days appears to be ‘ what do I have to present in order to get a larger grant from the government’.

Spiro Spero
Spiro Spero
3 years ago

“When men cease to believe in God, they don’t believe in nothing, you can make them believe anything.” (Chesterton). For me anyway the last few years especially have shown what Joseph Ratzinger spent so many years speaking and writing about as one of an inevitable, emerging, ‘dictatorship of relativism’. I’ll admit for a long time I thought he was being too negative and too theoretical in his warnings. Not anymore. The problem isn’t really social media or the censoring of it. Other means will be found. The problem is that there is little social consensus on anything anymore because the sources of ‘authority’ in many areas of life have been seriously dismantled or compromised. The mainstream media have a lot to answer for. I am no cheerleader for Trump or his ilk, but the last 24-48 hours of Biden-fawning have been ludicrous to behold. Clearly, these self-appointed ‘liberals’ have learned absolutely nothing in the past few years. For such narcissists, there’s a remarkable lack of self-awareness. It makes you almost feel sorry for Biden. No wonder the unhappy, the poor, disenfranchised or (the many) who simply don’t agree make a bee-line for ‘alternative facts’. Perhaps humility may be part of the solution, it would strengthen the authority of those (in science, politics, economics, etc.) who are no longer automatically believed (just because I went to Yale, etc). If they don’t know, are not sure, they should perhaps just say “I don’t know”, “We’re not certain”.

Peter Dawson
Peter Dawson
3 years ago
Reply to  Spiro Spero

This is a very interesting concept and well backed up by data “Why clever people make more stupid mistakes than most” – Dr John Campbell of YouTube fame suggests that the tea leady effect should be welcomed – when a group of very refined experts are discussing a problem – it can be quite useful to get someone with an entirely different point of view to give it the once over – Edward de Bono made some very clever and interesting suggestions as to how this may be overcome – you don’t hear much about it nowadays because no-one wants to wear the black had and step outside the groupthink.

Spiro Spero
Spiro Spero
3 years ago
Reply to  Peter Dawson

True. Given the never-ending merry-go-round of madness that is US elections one is reminded of PJ O’Rourke’s comment that it’d be better to open the New York phone book, selecting the first 300 names and fill Congress with those people. They’d do a better job.

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Spiro Spero

I think that that was William F. Buckley, but point made and taken.

Spiro Spero
Spiro Spero
3 years ago
Reply to  stephen f.

Thanks for the clarification

Stan Glib
Stan Glib
3 years ago

The trouble with Freddie Sayers’ article is that many of the self-described sceptics are very unsubtly being sceptical of all conclusions that aren’t ‘let’s just leave my way of life exactly as it is’

What about the sceptics who are worried about the long term effects of covid?

The sceptics who don’t buy the claim that it doesn’t affect children and babies? Or pregnant women?

The sceptics who are worried about what happens when more pandemics appear? Maybe even in conjunction with this one?

There’s a peculiar lack of interest in those sceptics.

Scepticism is as crucial as Sayers says, yes. But cherry picking data that points to the conclusion you want is not scepticism, it’s disingenuous, and frankly – completely transparent.

(I know that this article is more broadly about the limits of scepticism philosophically, and I agree with Fraser, but just wanted to make a specific point about the obvious immediate context here, which is about lockdowns etc.)

Katy Randle
Katy Randle
3 years ago
Reply to  Stan Glib

What about the sceptics who are worried about the long term effects of covid?

The sceptics who don’t buy the claim that it doesn’t affect children and babies? Or pregnant women?

The sceptics who are worried about what happens when more pandemics appear? Maybe even in conjunction with this one?

Those are all adequately covered by the draconian restrictions currently in force, are they not?

And those who question the efficacy of lockdowns are mostly not calling for everything to remain as it was out of selfishness; you are attacking a straw man there.

Stan Glib
Stan Glib
3 years ago
Reply to  Katy Randle

Well not necessarily, no. There will be sceptics who think that novel pathogens are such a dangerous unknown that there should be total reduction of connectivity and extremely strict quarantining and testing at borders, and no large events ever, for example (not my view). But Sayers and Co are not interested in those voices.

People should absolutely question efficacy of lockdowns. I personally don’t think they beat other measures. My point (read it again) was that filtering for only the sceptics who come to the conclusion one wants to hear is not scepticism.

Katy Randle
Katy Randle
3 years ago
Reply to  Stan Glib

But I really don’t think he was doing that. He was arguing for scepticism as a general philosophical imperative. In current times, the danger is that the mainstream belief that lockdowns are the only way is not challenged, and therefore he uses those who question its efficacy as examples. I’m pretty certain that if events had taken a different turn, he would be championing those who questioned the government policy of carrying on as usual.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Katy Randle

‘the danger is that the mainstream belief that lockdowns are the only way is not challenged’

It is challenged, it is debated, and most people who hear the arguments and debate consider lockdowns of some sort are the right way to go.

You can argue that those people are brainwashed, or manipulated and the the media favours one view but you can’t in all seriousness argue that the mainstream hasn’t been challenged.

Katy Randle
Katy Randle
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

I wasn’t arguing that, though. I said that Freddie was pointing out the danger should the mainstream not be challenged; a philosophical point of view.

And where on earth have I ever argued that people are brainwashed or manipulated? I would never be so rude.

Katy Randle
Katy Randle
3 years ago

An interesting response to Freddy’s defence of scepticism; thank you. And I too have gone down the rabbit hole of existentialism and how to prove the existence of the other.

It did serve to clarify for me why I have currently veered into doubt and despair. You say “the original basis for human life is community; or, at least, a sense of togetherness”; I agree. And that has been torn from me for nearly a year now. If the human condition is “our living alongside others” (and I agree with that), then I have been rendered inhuman, worthless in the eyes of the majority.

Anyone who is a fervent lockdown zealot might like to consider that I will not be the only one, and that severing the links of humanity might have long-term consequences in terms of trust and solidarity.

John Stone
John Stone
3 years ago

I don’t think this article really helps: if we stop challenging political or scientific authority because we are in crisis this in itself is exceedingly dangerous – and as the much misrepresented Lord Sumption pointed out early on if you surrender rights temporarily it probably won’t end up that way. Personally, I cannot accept a world in which say the words of Matt Hancock, Piers Morgan or Jonathan VanTam are automatically accorded the status of truth or authority. If we don’t keep thinking and arguing for ourselves, and demanding the right to do so we are in trouble.

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  John Stone

Sure – question if you like but until you come up with some well evidenced and repeatable explanation then all that any one has is their own individual and totally unfounded version. If Icke and the Covid deniers can show me evidence for their theories then I will look at it with an open mind.

Having an open and questioning mind is good. Being sceptical for no reason is not good

John Stone
John Stone
3 years ago

You don’t have to follow Icke or disbelieve in the existence of Covid to not be appalled with what is being made of it.

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  John Stone

Please explain ‘what is being made of it’.

John Stone
John Stone
3 years ago

The endless appeal to authority. The unwillingness of government to engage even with people of expertise with a different view.

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  John Stone

By engage with people of expertise with a different view I take it you can only mean follow the lines put forward by these people. I really do t understand as your argument with ‘authority’ . If you have advisers, committees of real and deep experience and expertise providing authority then what on earth is your problem?

John Stone
John Stone
3 years ago

This is an example of the government’s misuse of its position (apart from anything else using data which belongs to everybody from a comment I made in an earlier discussion:-

“If there is an absence of trust the government are much to blame. For instance, many sceptics question whether the virus actually exists and some of the scepticism quite rightly surrounds the anomalies of PCR testing. In November I wrote to Public Health England asking how many cases of COVID the government had diagnosed by DNA sequencing and received an FOI answer stating that they only diagnosed by PCR. Five days later we were into the era of ultra transmissible mutations and I read in the the BMJ (Jacqui Wise) that the government had DNA sequenced 140,000 cases: it had suddenly become politically expedient to mention it! The government will apparently only use data in a manipulative way, and for those not happy with the treacle coming from the mainstream media this is deeply troubling. From the scientific point of view it is obviously essential that we have bona fide information and open debate, otherwise the government will just blunder from one position to another. The conflicts are also very serious: Ferguson, for instance, was has always been a prospector for the vaccine industry, heavily funded by GAVI and Bill and Melinda Gates (Vaccine Impact Modelling Consortium). This is even more serious than his lockdown bed-hopping (though that might be something to swallow).”

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  John Stone

I’m sorry but I can’t take your point about whether the virus really exists at all seriously.

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  John Stone

You are massively and I suspect deliberately confusing issues. There is a massive difference between ‘diagnosing cases by DNA sequencing’ which you asked for and to which the answer was none, and DNA sequencing for other reasons not at all linked to diagnosis.opens debate is good – but twisting issues as in you post, is not good.

Mauricio Estrela
Mauricio Estrela
3 years ago

Good article! I love how in the same website I can get both sides of the conversation.

Perhaps that’s exactly what’s lacking in the media and from our policy makers.
Sure, constant doubt and conversation don’t lead to actions (or at least it takes too long and we are short in time these days), but I guess the overall feeling is that no skepticism is being well received AT ALL when and where it was important, even when it comes from medical doctors and scientists.

Additionally, I think there’s an important layer to this that you mention in your post: “To put it simply: in real life, trust necessarily precedes doubt”. From my perspective we’re living through a crisis of confidence in our institutions, especially the global ones. And that is not without evidences of conflicts of interest, corruption and frequent mistakes. However, instead of trying to regain public trust with transparency and creative strategies, what we’re seeing is disregard, even harsher measures and a clear desire to silence skeptic voices from the same institutions and even in social media.

In the beginning of the storm we might have understood this due to the urgency of the posing threat and lack of reliable data. But after almost a year of pandemic it doesn’t look like there’s any effort on those fronts. In fact, it even feels like it’s getting worse and leaning to even more extremes. I’ll bring one example here, from the proposed NY bill A416: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2021/a416.

I’ll leave some excerpts to make life easier:

Upon determining by clear and convincing evidence that the health of others is or may be endangered by a case, contact or carrier, or suspected case, contact or carrier of a contagious disease that, in the opinion of the governor, after consultation with the commissioner, may pose an imminent and significant threat, the governor or his or her delegee may order the removal and/or detention of such a person or of a group of such persons by issuing a single order, identifying such persons either by name or by a reasonably specific description of the individuals or group being detained. such person or group of persons shall be detained in a medical facility or other appropriate facility or premises designated by the governor or his or her delegee

A person who is detained in a medical facility, or other appropriate facility or premises, shall not conduct himself or herself in a disorderly manner, and shall not leave or attempt to leave such facility or premises until he or she is discharged

queensrycherule
queensrycherule
3 years ago

Reason is man’s sole means of gaining knowledge.

By definition, reason cannot be madness but rejecting reason is madness.

Peter Dawson
Peter Dawson
3 years ago

That entirely depends on your predicates – see lots of religions fr examples.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
3 years ago

Is it solipsistic in here? Or is it just me?

I hear her voice and start to run
Into the trees, into the trees, into the trees
Suddenly I stop, but I know it’s too late
I’m lost in a forest, all alone
The girl was never there, it’s always the same
I’m running towards nothing
Again and again and again and again…
– A Forest, The Cure

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago

China has been back to normal since Wuhan opened up April 8th. For all the hand wringing Sweden has a lower death per million number than the UK, USA, Spain, France, etc. Florida is doing better than lockdown heavily masked California and New York. The lockdowners only argument is we didn’t lockdown and mask hard enough. This is insanity. Why do the lockdowners hate and despise humanity so much?

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Dennis Boylon

There are myriad variables at a play in determining death rates and those varibles are unequal between nations. The basic premise is that increased contact between people spreads infectious viruses. Therefore, reducing contact via social distancing will reduce the transmission rate of the virus in a given population. When you are comparing one state with another it is not a fair comparison. How anyone could disagree with this most basic premise; that human contact increases transmission of an infectious virus is beyond me?!

queensrycherule
queensrycherule
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Lockdown is communist, it was imported from a totalitarian state.

You conveniently ignore all the deaths from Lockdown and I dismiss your claims out of hand.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

I don’t dismiss any deaths arising from economic lockdowns. They’re a very blunt policy instrument that cause immense damage to our communities. They result in suicides, mental problems and all manner of other social ills. However, the pain arising from economic lockdown is a tradeoff because the death and destruction resulting from a total collapse in the healthcare system arising from a flood of Covid-19 infections and deaths is worse.

Carl Ewing
Carl Ewing
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Interesting that you don’t foresee substantial deterioration of healthcare systems with collapsed economies and tax revenues. Actually this is already happening if you look 2021 budgets from governments all over the world. You’re arguing from the same short-term fear mongering line of thinking that most people had after 9/11. I was not surprised to hear members of UKs government admit that “we never calculated the cost of lockdowns in our policy decisions”. It was like deja vu back to the Iraq War. “Collateral damage? What is that?? We must defeat the enemy in front of us and deal with consequences later!” It has also not surprised me that the left immediately started clinging to Modern Monetary Theory, which has, so far, been the greatest gift to the upper class ever devised in the history of the human race, despite being touted by the left as a savior of unlimited government spending….thinking that exploded deficits and money printing will help the poor, when all its doing is funneling money into corporations and away from where it’s needed. Unsurprising considering it ain’t poor people writing economic legislation. Anywho.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Carl Ewing

You are inferring that and I am not quite sure how. Like many commentators here you are quick to put people in this ‘communist lockdown zealot box’, which I find truly bizarre. I foresee many problems arising from the last year of lockdowns as would anyone with half a brain. Policy cannot be fully thought out when you are faced with a cliff edge scenario where one outcome is clear and disastrous and other truly terrible but possibly less disastrous, where the effects can hopefully be mitigated somewhat. I’m sorry to say but it seems a vocal minority of readers have a pathological distrust of authority and experts.

David Slade
David Slade
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Because nature is full of unintended consequences, possitive feedback loops (asks meteorologist) and counterintuitive effects (quantum physics).

It may seem incongruous that lockdowns don’t work but the data is at best ambiguous, maybe because of some inverse protection effect (virus instead becomes concentrated in care homes and hospitals).

I’m not saying that what has happened – I don’t want another argument about lockdowns – just pointing out that thinking something must work is not the same as having proof that it does.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  David Slade

Agreed.

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

OK. Why is Sweden better than the USA and UK in deaths per million and they never locked down. Why in New York and California doing worse than Florida? What the hell was the point of all of this? It didn’t work. California and New York have been draconian as it gets. It didn’t work!

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Dennis Boylon

There are many reasons. Have you interrogated the data? I suspect not. Lockdowns are a last resort to stop a collapse in healthcare. If you disagree with the policy then you should make an alternative suggestion. At the moment, you are just throwing out random examples that aren’t evidence of anything in particular.

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

No they aren’t. They don’t work. They are complete nonsense. Florida isn’t overwhelmed. Lockdown are pure evil and are destroying society.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Dennis Boylon

So the falling infection rate, hospitalisation rate and death rate after each lockdown in the UK is just a coincidence? How can the fact that keeping people a part reduces the spread of an infectious virus be complete nonsense? How does one become so warped that they would deny what is both self-evident but also verifiable? Less of the emotive language and more rational analysis or evidence.

Eva Rostova
Eva Rostova
3 years ago
Reply to  Dennis Boylon

The irony of your comment is that Wuhan got back to normal because they had an early lockdown and they kept it in place until the virus was suppressed. One can object to lockdowns on civil liberties grounds, but evidently they do work when done early and stringently enough. Europe and US etc has had the worst of all worlds by using lockdowns merely to mitigate the worst of the spikes (“flatten the curve”) rather than suppression: lots of people still die and people are upset at their loss of liberty, and it carries on for longer. Meanwhile, people in China, Australia, Taiwan, NZ etc are having fun and their hospitals are not overwhelmed.

David Slade
David Slade
3 years ago
Reply to  Eva Rostova

At the risk of arguing, is it wise to trust China about Wuhan? After all, China is essentially North Korea on steroids – if you wouldn’t trust the latter you shouldn’t trust the former – the world has a different relationship with China purely through economic necessity, not demonstrated trustworthiness.

Also (I think I’ve asked you before), given the better outcomes in the far East were universal despite various degrees of lockdown and none – and this by an order of magnitude – isn’t a natural explanation to do with pre existing immunity from prior exposure to other Coronaviruses more likely?

Eva Rostova
Eva Rostova
3 years ago
Reply to  David Slade

Agreed there are lots of unanswered questions still, but there’s quite a lot of research been done over the past year and the better explanation appears to be the fact that Asia took coronavirus planning very seriously after SARS in 2003 and were prepared/acted very quickly in Feb/March 2020 (whereas Europe, US etc wrongly reacted as if it had the characteristics of a flu pandemic). I have seen no evidence that populations in Asia/Oz/NZ have immunity to Covid, but of course it’s possible; please do share any links to research you’ve seen.

I certainly don’t think we have to/should trust China. But we can trust our diplomats, journalists, colleagues, ex-pat friends etc who are on the ground and confirm that the pandemic was brought under control in China. I don’t see anything unbelievable about that: China’s experience most of last year has been similar to Australia and New Zealand (and I hope we agree that we can definitely trust them), i.e. they all successfully suppressed the virus. Whether that can be sustained (and the costs of doing so, including in terms of civil liberties) is of course an open question.

David Slade
David Slade
3 years ago
Reply to  Eva Rostova

I have read a number of explanations for the East/West discrepancy – ranging from mandatory TB vaccinations in Japan (however this seems unlikely), different more aggressive strains in the US and Europe (this was quite early on and I am not sure if this has held up to scrutiny) to lower rates of obesity (this seems most plausible of the three just mentioned – to me, anyway).

Then there are of course cultural explanations and greater preparedness due to previous exposure (rather than immunity). I don’t discount that some form of early testing when infections were low and done in the right way could have also helped, but I can’t help but think that – regardless of how more competently the East got their response – given the variance in measures we have all used, there would still be some signature of the same success in the West’s data – and it seems lacking.

I don’t believe I can post links (as you requested) on this site – but the following article is interesting ‘Ancient East Asian peoples may have adapted to coronavirus-like epidemic up to 25,000 years ago’ (or google coronaviruses 20,000-5000 years ago’ and it’s the first that comes up).

It is more relevant than the title suggests – of course its an evolutionary biological perspective and I don’t think anyone would pretend its a complete explanation – or that it provides workable solutions (evolutionary biology rarely does – it just explains things). However it seems worth considering.

Eva Rostova
Eva Rostova
3 years ago
Reply to  David Slade

Thanks. I’ll take another look, and try and find the peer-reviewed research. I had seen the 25,000-old virus theory. I remain open-minded, but I think I’m being pretty objective when I say these type of theories are not particularly reconcilable with Australia and New Zealand’s experience of the pandemic. They are heavily ethnically European, arrived mainly in the past century or so. And lots of obesity.

David Slade
David Slade
3 years ago
Reply to  Eva Rostova

Although it is not a very satisfying explanation, I do think that we need to consider the possibility that New Zealand and Australia are both outliers. New Zealand is a sparsely populated, remote nation state whose 5 million people are dispersed across two land masses, there are no significant travel hubs and it is around 1000 miles away from even Australia.

Australia is slightly more formidable – but it is still essentially 20 million people dispersed on a continent sized nation as large as the United States (minus Alaska) where urban conurbations are largely coastal and separated by expanses of desert (can Coronavirus’ even survive crossing a desert?)

If the natural immunity theory holds true for the East Asians we have to also consider the possibility of a shielding effect for the Caucasians on the islands of Australia and New Zealand supplied by their ‘nearest’ neighbours.

I think there are quite a few hypothesis that need to be worked through before we conclude its down to more competent management on behalf of the political leaders of Aus and NZ. Either way, the alternative hypothesis needs properly explaining or else we are initiating costly and, arguably, inhumane measures which are not even going to be any good for the one benefit they are supposed to give.

Eva Rostova
Eva Rostova
3 years ago
Reply to  David Slade

I hear you, and let’s stay open-minded, but let’s also acknowledge these are outlier theories and let’s also not forget the Occam’s Razor principle. The one thing generally in common of the Asia-Pac nations is they acted early and in accordance with coronavirus/SARs planning, in stark contrast to Europe and America. Moreover, there are some undeniable scientific facts that inform our understanding of how the pandemic has developed: most fundamentally, Covid cannot spread between humans who are sufficiently socially distanced.

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago
Reply to  Eva Rostova

It that true? Do you have any idea what the population density of China is? Particularly Wuhan? You clearly have no idea. All they had to do was lock down and open back up? This is crazy. It isn’t true. It is propaganda. Taiwan never locked down. Japan never locked down. Vietnam never locked down. They closed their borders. They did not lock down.

Eva Rostova
Eva Rostova
3 years ago
Reply to  Dennis Boylon

It’s propaganda from Australia and NZ too is it?

The responses in Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, South Korea etc have been widely studied. One common theme is they had excellent coronavirus planning in place after SARs in 2003.

You see stupidity, lies and conspiracies, I see perfectly rational explanations for what has gone on. You rage at our misfortune to be living through a pandemic, I accept that we have to make the most of a bad deal for a year or two. This is not the end of the world.

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago
Reply to  Eva Rostova

My rage is at all the evil bastards who have profited of this and continue to clamor for more. You are evil evil people. This isn’t going away in a year or two moron. Not with Amazon, Bill and Melinda, Big Pharma, Healthcare, etc. doing as well as they have done. The testing facilities? You seriously think those are ever going away? Covid Pass, vaccine mandates, Getting all essentials from Amazon and walmart? This is all we are now. Stupid pathetic cattle.

Duncan Hunter
Duncan Hunter
3 years ago
Reply to  Eva Rostova

I trust China’s data and its reporting as much as I trust Russia’s. Or Spain’s.

Also to compare the U.K. to New Zealand is hardly fair or representative.

Eva Rostova
Eva Rostova
3 years ago
Reply to  Duncan Hunter

My point was simply that lockdowns suppressed the virus in several jurisdictions, but only when done early and until infections were under control. Nowhere in the US or Europe did that. Whether or not it was feasible (e.g. because of ability to close borders, or because infections were already too widespread by the time we knew what was going on) is a separate issue.

And you don’t need to trust China’s data. See what our diplomats and journalists on the ground are reporting: none of our expats are getting sick, they are back at work and socialising as normal. Just like Australia, Taiwan, NZ, South Korea etc.

Duncan Hunter
Duncan Hunter
3 years ago
Reply to  Dennis Boylon

I wouldn’t include Spain in your list. The accuracy of data from there is not reliable – back in July an investigative report by El País uncovered c.60% underreporting of deaths. There are days when Spain doesn’t even bother to file numbers with Euromomo and full lockdown is being reintroduced in swathes of the country In the next few days. The true picture will emerge but for now it is being concealed or massaged by Sánchez & co.

Even the WHO says lockdowns don’t work, but as you say this doesn’t appeal to the zealous and ever willing proponents of it. If the basic premise that we will never fully eradicate coronavirus is true, then we need to learn to live with it. The cycle of lockdown then release then another lockdown is not working but continuing to revert to it is, as you say, insanity.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Duncan Hunter

We have a vaccine so that is the end scenario, is it not?

Duncan Hunter
Duncan Hunter
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

One hopes! Time alone will tell.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Duncan Hunter

Indeed.

James Moss
James Moss
3 years ago

Another long ramble about philosophy to defend “sceptics”.

The problem is not “sceptics”, it is a collection of cranks, purveyors of misinformation and liars, encouraged and facilitated by media commentators with a political agenda. As a tiny example, we have Toby Young, pushing a right-wing, libertarian free speech agenda, so-called “sceptic” agenda (nothing wrong with any of that) going on TV (Newsnight) and claiming that no-one on his “Lockdown Sceptics” website is a Covid denier. But in truth, his website hosts Covid deniers such as Michael Yeadon and Clare Craig. These two, amongst others such as the “fat charlatan” put out a constant Twitter and blog output of nonsense about Covid accompanied by bogus “statistical” proof accompanied by solicitations for money from their followers. The fat man claims it is to fund his video making. Yeadon is flanked by a parallel “Ycampaign” which asks for money and “PCRClaims” which seeks to build up a database of liability claims which could be mined by future ambulance chasing claims handlers.

Another tiny example, we have Nobel prizewinner Michael Levitt (featured on Unherd a couple of times) innocently tweeting earlier this month his puzzlement that UK hospitals can allegedly be so busy when there are no excess deaths – apparently totally ignorant (odd for a Nobel laureate?) that there is a reporting lag; the excess deaths have now appeared in the figures sure enough – Mr. Levitt has been quiet about that.

Scepticism started off quite well last spring – some made a genuine attempt to make an actuarial comparison of the cost of certain NPIs against their benefits. This didn’t make a very convincing numerical case and failed to gain much traction, since when the so-called “sceptics” have turned to various forms of Covid denial – even the usually measured Professor Heneghan was eventually caught out with his “no second wave” predictions.

Honest commentators should spend 90% of their time reporting facts which are 90% likely to be true and the remaining 10% making clear that there are other possibilities, not 90% of it on the latter.

David Slade
David Slade
3 years ago
Reply to  James Moss

Of course, the problem with second guessing the motives of the other side, so as to de legitimise their arguments – as you have done – is that they can do the same to your side.

You could question those who support lockdown on the basis of their professed admiration for an inhumane totalitarian state ( Neil Ferguson and China in the times on Christmas Eve, if you need a reference).

If it’s pecuniary advantage that you believe invalidates your opponent, then shouldn’t you also consider the financial incentives of pharma and tech companies who have a vested interest in keeping us all locked away until a vaccine and various expensive iterations thereof?

I’m not saying I believe the lockdown and covid hysteria is the product of malfeasance by the way, just pointing out the flaw in dismissing your opponent on the basis of criteria that more readily applies to your allies.

James Moss
James Moss
3 years ago
Reply to  David Slade

The arguments of the people to whom I have referred require no further de-legitimisation from me – the exaggerations, the lies, the inconsistencies and the outright fallacies do that without my assistance.

As to their motives, I am as confused by that as anyone – none of them can be getting rich on a few donations from their marks. Indeed it begs the question – who funds these people and why? Start with an extreme example – a true crank like Piers Corbyn – who pays his gas bill even?

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago

Skepticism is not much more than instinct. When you are told something and either it doesn’t sound right, or future events make what you are told questionable, it is perfectly normal to raise an eyebrow. I’m more worried about people who blindly accept anything they are told simply because someone with perceived authority said it.

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago

To me, the bottom line is that we might well be living in a universe and world that in reality doesn’t look or work in ways that are anything like our current understanding. It’s not so long ago that the heavens revolved around the earth, that plague and death stalked the land because god or gods were offended by us. Some parts of the world still live on such terms. However, at the moment I use a set of ‘rules and understandings’ that help me make sense of the world – a set of rules generally accepted across the world. Rules that, in general are based around scientific method of repeated testing of cause and effect etc. Sometimes , those understandings do change ( e.g the existence of Dark Matter and Energy) and I’m happy to go along with those new understandings. What i will not be happy to accept , however, is some Krank claiming that lizards rule, Covid is a hoax etc etc, not because they have some clear and repeatable evidence etc but because it somehow suits their own emotions and feelings about their place in the world, or heavens help us, their desire to cause disturbance and upset or simply a sense of self importance and a need for attention.

The one issue where I suspect I am at odds with the author is over the existence of God – or any gods. It might well be that there is ‘a God’ and who knows, many gods, but for the time being I am open minded . Not sceptical- just open minded on the matter

Carl Ewing
Carl Ewing
3 years ago

I come from the perspective that Western culture is inherently evil, Anything coming from a place of Western power, whether it’s government, mass media or corporations, should be questioned by default. And one should always be aware that people in the West have been fed propaganda from birth, and will generally be defensive and supportive of our institutions, regardless of the evils done, because our entire worldview is constructed by these powers.

Now, why would I think this? Let’s take World War II and Japan. Most people in the West will have been educated on the horrors of Pearl Harbor, and the necessity of dropping 2 nuclear bombs on Japan to end the war / aggression. This of course, is a great example of Western propaganda. What isn’t taught in schools is the fire bombing of Japan for months leading up the dropping of the atom bomb. In fact, on a single evening of March 9-10th 1945, American bombers conducted a mission titled Operation Meetinghouse. On this mission they fire bombed 16 square miles of Tokyo, killing 100,000 civilians and making homeless 1 million more. The stench of burning bodies was so great the pilots could smell it from the air. That was a single night, in a single city. Magnify those numbers by the other 50 cities bombed for 6 months, and you have what is essentially an attempted genocide committed by the West on a foreign adversary.

If you’d like to read about this event, check this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wi

The effectiveness of controlling messaging over this attempted genocide essentially paved the way for mass propaganda of most Western horrors throughout the 20th and 21st century. Chomsky made a career at exposing how this propaganda functions, and how the West can continually coverup or explain away it’s atrocities under the guise of “compassion” or “fighting terror” or “spreading democracy” or whatever branding is necessary. This doesn’t just apply to the U.S., it applies to the UK, Canada, Australia, most of Europe.

In the end, the West can continue to bomb the hell out of poor countries, exploit 3rd world labor (while having a direct hand in causing the poverty that makes them “3rd world”), continue ransacking the environment, while directing anger toward either the lower classes or to an “enemy”, usually Asian or Middle-Eastern in far away lands.

I think many people in the West have a sense (whether it’s consciously or unconsciously) that the society they live isn’t the great beacon of moral superiority it claims to be, and when they’re told to “accept” the restrictions and rules laid down by known corrupt and immoral institutions, you have to expect pushback. Sometimes that pushback will come in the form of wild conspiracy theories…but as we’ve learned the past couple decades, conspiracies like “US intelligence has an elaborate surveillance apparatus that spies on its own citizens” or “the US and UK government and media are lying about Iraq WMDs to start a war”, or “corporations and wealthy are committing tax fraud and money laundering to the tune of trillions” or “many wealthy / powerful people are involved in an elaborate ring of pedophilia and sex trafficking” (how quickly we forgot about Epstein) or “Western governments are committing war crimes in the Middle-East including double-tap bombing…illegal under the Geneva convention” “mass media companies and big tech or censoring speech at the behest of Western intelligence agencies and governments under the guise of ‘fighting terror’ or ‘fighting disinformation’ without concern for civil liberties or concern for the damage it causes to democratic freedom”…well, all this has been proven to be true.

So I find it funny, that when some people question the messaging and rules / restrictions on Covid…policies which overwhelming favor the middle / upper class while doing tremendous damage to poor people (especially minorities and poor children) that it is met with “stop being such a conspiracy theory whack job!”. And, unsurprisingly, we know have a media and social media environment that is systematically weeding out and questioning any of these policies, regardless of how much damage is being done. And it’s become so natural a process that even “liberals” are rejoicing when companies (which they considered overpowering and dangerous a year ago) use that monopoly power to shut out competitors or political speech they don’t agree with.

I believe it’s been established that the majority of people no longer trust main stream media or their governments. I wonder why that is? And I wonder what benefit mass media and government have in painting anyone that questions any of this as a “conspiracy theory nutcase”. In my opinion, NOT questioning any of this stuff is crazier. As Glen Greewald said: “If you trust anything that you hear from main stream news it’s you who is irrational”. And he is 100% correct. And the only people to blame for the current state of division and mistrust of “authorities” are…well…the people who spent decades lying and manipulating the public.

Michael Hanson
Michael Hanson
3 years ago
Reply to  Carl Ewing

Well said. Thank you.

Stephen I’Anson
Stephen I’Anson
3 years ago

Scepticism is being used by some as an excuse to ignore reasons other than mortality rate to restrict human contact. The number of earlier than expected deaths of elderly and immune compromised people from COVID is shocking and devastating for all concerned but the lockdown restrictions are in place not only to delay the inevitable but to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed leading to even more lives or years of quality life being lost. Scepticism plays its part in informing judgements about what action (or inaction) is best in the face of any threat to our wellbeing and way of life and in a society where we are interdependent as individuals we have agreed to a system of Government that endeavours to act in our collective best interest.

J StJohn
J StJohn
3 years ago

We are losing more life years to the lockdown than to the COVID. The typical life expectancy of a COVID victim is a year or two. They were already a drain on public resources and the NHS. 4000 extra still births alone, attributable to the lockdown had a life expectancy of 80+ years. The stillbirths would have been economically productive contributors to the NHS. To cap it all, the only reason the COVID victims weren’t dead already, is the enormous resources we already applied to artificially extend their lives, starting with flu’jabs. Prior to 2003 they’d’ve been long dead of flu’. Stop the lockdown , save the children.

Paul Wright
Paul Wright
3 years ago
Reply to  J StJohn

We are losing more life years to the lockdown than to the COVID

Evidence?

The typical life expectancy of a COVID victim is a year or two.

Is this the old “average age of COVID death compared average life expectancy” thing? The comparison is nonsensical. As @FactsThen on Twitter writes: “Life expectancy table shows for 85 yr olds: only 9% die within 12 months and on average live another 6 yrs. A third of those live a lot longer than another 6 yrs.” (FactsThen is referring to the data from National life tables: UK from the ONS).

4000 extra still births alone, attributable to the lockdown had a life expectancy of 80+ years

Again, this is not what the ONS says (ref: Provisional births in England and Wales: 2020): “Our provisional data show that the number of stillbirths continued a long-term downward trend in 2020.

We do note that the stillbirth rate in April was the highest seen so far this year, and the highest since September 2018. April was the month that coincided with the height of the first wave of the pandemic and most-intensive national restrictions. We looked at this more closely.

Each and every stillbirth is a tragedy for the family involved, but the number of stillbirths that occur each month in England and Wales is relatively small and monthly stillbirth rates are volatile. The higher stillbirth rate seen in April 2020 reflects a total of 213 stillbirths, which was three more than in March 2020 and 11 more than April 2019. The stillbirth rate seen in April 2020 was not notably higher from a statistical perspective compared with other months.

Figure 3 illustrates this, where we can see similar spikes on a number of occasions in the past five years despite the stillbirth rate continuing a general downward trend.

In summary, our data do not provide definitive statistical evidence for an increase in stillbirths during the pandemic at a national level.”

To cap it all, the only reason the COVID victims weren’t dead already, is the enormous resources we already applied to artificially extend their lives, starting with flu’jabs. Prior to 2003 they’d’ve been long dead of flu’.

I fail to see the relevance of this. Many people are alive today who years ago would have been dead because of lack of medical treatment. Are you saying they are less deserving of that longer life?

J StJohn
J StJohn
3 years ago
Reply to  Paul Wright

Deserving doesn’t come into it. The more resources we chuck at it the longer we can keep people alive. When we signed up to the flu’ jab for oldies, they never told us that, if an unvaccinated flu’ came along we’d have to sacrifice our lives, our children and our ability to pay for the NHS on the altar of keeping alive those selfsame unproductive people alive at any cost. Give ME the choice between my life and my children and I’ll sacrifice my own life.
every
single
time
Stop this madness now. It’s over. The virus is beaten. I’m taking my life back. You do whatever you like.

Adam Lehto
Adam Lehto
3 years ago

A sensible take on the practical limits of scepticism. Descartes might be hogging the limelight a little, though. Richard Popkin’s *The History of Scepticism: From Savonarola to Bayle* is a great overview. It’s fascinating to see how different thinkers tackled the rediscovered ‘problem of scepticism’ and used it variously to defend their own dogmatism and/or chart what Popkin calls ‘mitigated’ or ‘constructive’ scepticism, which also ended up generating what we now take for granted as the modern scientific method. Descartes ‘method of doubt’ is really just a tool to establish absolutely certain knowledge, and in that sense he represents more of a medieval rather than a typically modern approach. Anyway, check out Popkin if you’re intrigued. It’s very well written, both in content and style.

David Simpson
David Simpson
3 years ago

I know I exist. I know the world and others exist. The problem is to what extent is my perception of these external realities, merely my projection of my “reality” on to them. That is why scepticism is so important – do I really “know” this or that “fact” about myself, or you, or the world? And if I don’t, how can I find a baseline for my perceptions beyond “cogito ergo sum”? Which I have always felt missed the point – it is not that I “think” that proves my existence, but simply that I am aware, I am conscious.

Stephen Hoffman
Stephen Hoffman
3 years ago

This whole article is a straw man. Skepticism is freedom. Without freedom there is no true religion, and no love. Simple as that.

Dave Weeden
Dave Weeden
3 years ago

Are you sure? I doubt this, myself.

Stephen Hoffman
Stephen Hoffman
3 years ago
Reply to  Dave Weeden

(Idiot.)

RALPH TIFFIN
RALPH TIFFIN
3 years ago

Ralph Tiffin

By many accounts Hume was a ‘nice’ man, a pleasant chap. I’d worry if I were seen as ‘nice’, especially for some of my thoughts and views which the herd would find neither to their liking, nor concurring with their desire for an untroubled and pleasant existence.

Are we not frequently puzzled by matters. For example on asking some bright friends “why do viruses mutate? Answers “it’s Darwinism” or “that’s too philosophical”. There were similar answers to questions as to why spiders wake up and spin ““ what drives them.No doubt there will be Unherd readers who have definitive answers.

Should we and our institutions not be skeptical or questioning? Christian churches have generally been very quiet on Covid. Do they take the line that to talk of death, to the joys of heaven or torments of hell are just not sell-able these days, that folk are too bright for these
notions? Its seems that they are afraid of addressing death as a natural event.

Also politicians seldom address the subject of death as a reality, an inevitability. Surely we need more skepticism regarding the efficacy of vaccines and and many of the ‘givens’ regarding coping with Covid. Politicians do not seem able to be realistic now or planning for
next winter’s deaths. The NHS was never designed to deal with so many “end of life” situations ““ surely there should be plan B ““ build the facilities and find the resources to humanely cope with the inevitable?

Also should Christianity not be skeptical and questioning? We can acknowledge “shared humanity” as full of wonderful events and highly desirable but should we not look beyond ourselves, our too often imperfect humanity ““ and search for what is inexplicable, what is divine?
The quotes from Hume are for me the sign of a ‘nice’, contented man ““ neither an inspiring nor helpful philosopher.

Of late the word skeptical has become over used. Whatever the situation surely we should never give up questioning and not settling for contentment. Should we not search beyond the bounds of what we currently conceive as decent humanity and proper morality.

Or is this madness?

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago

I can read the words but then I think, “What’s the point?” Is that scepticism?

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

No, that’s Nihilism. Scepticism is if you had thought: “Did I really read the words?”

Caroline Martin
Caroline Martin
3 years ago

In all things there must be a balance. We have to be able to evaluate risk. We must also have some humility. I have a friend who denies the risk of Covid and will not take the vaccine. She thinks she knows more than the fools who disagree with her. She is an advanced sceptic about Covid and most medical conditions. I think she had a bad experience with a medical condition and Doctors who treated her badly. Her faith, if ever she had it, was lost. I don’t know how she can recapture it. Perhaps getting the virus and realising that she was wrong? Although I do not wish it on anyone.

Peter Francis
Peter Francis
3 years ago

In his dwarfophobic novel, The Last Battle, C.S. Lewis has a group of vertically-challenged persons whose radical skepticism renders them incapable of perceiving the nature of the new order. In the Acts of the Apostles, when St. Peter rejects Simon the Wizard, St. Peter acknowledges that Simon the Wizard believes, but asserts that Simon the Wizard does not have faith. As a man of the cloth, Giles, do you regard skepticism as a spiritual double-edged sword when it comes to bridging the gap between belief and faith?

Bryan Dale
Bryan Dale
3 years ago

The lost fugawee tribe had all the answers.

Michael Hanson
Michael Hanson
3 years ago

Without sceptics we would still think the world was flat and doctors would still recommend smoking for relaxation and people would still believe vaccines were safe and effective!

Charles Rense
Charles Rense
3 years ago

Skepticism is never the answer. Is is only a question.

Greg Greg
Greg Greg
3 years ago

Always enjoy Giles’ articles, even when I disagree. Many thanks. This is fascinating. It seems to this observer on the other side of the ‘big pond’ that, what we are dealing with is a world in which nominalism is on the ascendancy and realism is receding. Both begin, I’d argue, from radically different presuppositions which are, at least when it comes to large philosophical categories, beyond knowing. For example, how does one persuade someone who believes that the chief end of life is to, oh, I don’t know….say, ‘acquire money and things?’ One can quote the Bible as a corrective, and surely there is a critical place for that, however that is easily dismissed as simply another option that ‘some people choose.’ While I think persuasion is a supernatural act in many instances, nevertheless humanly speaking it seems that the epistemically system one chooses to govern their lives has less to do with actual epistemology so much as soteriology. In other words, people’s way of thinking (epistemology) is decided by the real time, day to day, experienced ‘fruit’ or consequence of a particular way of thinking. (Ie their adopted epistemic system). For example, I am a relatively orthodox Christian in large part bc I find that the Bible in general and Jesus in particular, has guided me into a more meaningful and, dare I say it, more enjoyable life than other epistemic sources. enjoyment. In short, it has created a more ‘saved,’ or, for seminary people out there, more ‘soteriologically sound’ life than alternative epistemic systems. Does that make sense?! Am not sure, but it was at least therapeutic to think out loud about this stuff. Many thanks, Giles, for provoking us all to think more about….well, thinking.