July 7, 2023 - 5:30pm
“By hand or by brain” is perhaps the most memorable phrase contained within Clause IV, adopted by the Labour Party in its constitution of 1918.
While it would later become a target of contempt for the party’s Right, and discarded by Tony Blair in 1995, such language — part of a wider commitment to public ownership — was intended to be ameliorative. Section four of the clause, where those words can be found, was originally a compromise to integrate socialists with social reformers.
Sir Keir Starmer is certainly not the former, but the speech he gave yesterday — on his party’s “mission” of education — sought to put cognitive and manual work on a par. The subtext was obvious in the aftermath of Brexit and 2019: Labour only wins if it seeks to defend workers of all stripes.
New Labour accomplished much, he insisted, but had failed to eradicate the “snobbery that looks down on vocational education”. As far as swipes at the old guard go, this was rasping. Blair and Gordon Brown had trained millions of young people for the “knowledge economy”, Starmer added, but they had failed those who wanted to pursue blue-collar jobs.
The Labour leader placed emphasis on rhetoric, logic and learning how to make persuasive arguments. Of course, he didn’t use any of those terms, presumably because proposing that schools teach rhetoric and logic sounds like something Boris Johnson would say. Strangely enough, such accusations didn’t surface yesterday.
That’s perhaps because Starmer sidestepped any association with Johnson by deliciously Blairite means — namely using jargon like “oracy”, which apparently consists of “the fluent, confident, and correct use of the standard spoken form of one’s native language”. So yes, rhetoric.
Suddenly it felt as if we were listening to an Alain De Botton audiobook. “It’s not just a skill for learning,” the Labour leader said with genuine ardour. “It’s also a skill for life. Not just for the workplace [but] also for working out who you are.”
Besides Starmer now wanting Britain’s classrooms to resemble Socratic dialogues, there was the equally unexpected proposal that all students study a creative arts subject, or sport, until 16. Such originality was inevitably accompanied by centrist homilies, most notably in defaulting to the language of social mobility. When Blair spoke in a similar register it made sense, but today it sounds out of touch. Really, there is a great deal of social mobility in Britain right now — it’s just mostly downwards.
While Starmer praised apprenticeships, and even proposed the formation of a new body, Skills England, he failed to mention that the minimum wage for an apprentice is as little as £5.28. The incentives to study for a university degree, and access cheap credit immediately, are clearly more alluring.
The party leader spoke candidly of how he grew up “surrounded by hope” and “took it for granted”. Yet he isn’t interested in scrapping student fees, despite free higher education being something his generation literally did take for granted. Starmer is keen to talk of obligation and an “unwritten contract” between different age groups, only this contract omits mentioning that he didn’t have to pay for something, while expecting that others should.
There was a lack of substance around resources and constraints. Starmer wants to replace an outdated national curriculum yet academies, introduced by Blair and massively scaled in recent years, don’t have to follow it. The kind of centralised plan he seems to desire is at odds with the legacy bequeathed by a former prime minister he frequently praises.
Starmer’s posture on education policy is intriguing, and in parts even original. But there is a disconnect between his ambitions and the structure he stands to inherit. “National missions” and the academy system will mix like oil and water. To deliver what he claims to want will require a reversal of New Labour, as well as Tory, policies. I wouldn’t hold my breath.
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SubscribeAaron,don’t worry, I have no more intention of voting for Labour than I have for voting Conservative: Two dead parties propped up by virtue of each others rigor mortis – They’re stiffs.
Unfortunately FPTP makes it almost impossible for the lesser parties to make the breakthrough required to clear out the major two. UKIPs 12% of the vote yielding a single seat in 2015 being a case in point. Whilst it wouldn’t be particularly pretty, maybe if the next election results in Labour having to be propped up the likes of Lib Dems and SNP we may see moves towards some kind of PR system as a concession to them.
Whilst no system is perfect and PR results in MPs that aren’t directly answerable to the voters, a large number don’t know their local MP anyway (I never once met mine in all the years I lived there anyway) so I think it’s a minor trade off
O tempora o mores!
Unfortunately FPTP makes it almost impossible for the lesser parties to make the breakthrough required to clear out the major two. UKIPs 12% of the vote yielding a single seat in 2015 being a case in point. Whilst it wouldn’t be particularly pretty, maybe if the next election results in Labour having to be propped up the likes of Lib Dems and SNP we may see moves towards some kind of PR system as a concession to them.
Whilst no system is perfect and PR results in MPs that aren’t directly answerable to the voters, a large number don’t know their local MP anyway (I never once met mine in all the years I lived there anyway) so I think it’s a minor trade off
O tempora o mores!
Aaron,don’t worry, I have no more intention of voting for Labour than I have for voting Conservative: Two dead parties propped up by virtue of each others rigor mortis – They’re stiffs.
This surely is the key point:
‘Really, there is a great deal of social mobility in Britain right now — it’s just mostly downwards.’
I’ve often thought that to some extent this university/vocational thing is internet hot air. The fundamental problem here is that an awful lot of people who took on education (latterly at the cost of significant debt) and who do work hard are sill seeing social mobility downwards. Is education really the key to social mobility outside of relatively low numbers? Blair fixated on tertiary education buy it’s hard to see that as having really done much. But to my mind it is fanciful to think that just turning out a load of tradesmen will somehow bring about change.
We’ve had several attempts, often well-meaning, at this mythic vocational training, often ruinously expensive. Look up University Technology Colleges.
We can, I think reasonably, question to what extent hard and fast immigration has brought about or accelerated bad trends with respect to social mobility. Immigration is not the full picture. If we want a economy that facilitates serious social mobility then we need one that not just accommodates the skills in colleges and universities, but preferences domestic young. We need owner occupation as a norm and we need the young to start off in life not saddled with debt. We need wages, not jobs.
It wouldn’t be cheap and the sugar rush of foreign labour would always be there to tempt. No political party seems to be talking about such an economy.
This surely is the key point:
‘Really, there is a great deal of social mobility in Britain right now — it’s just mostly downwards.’
I’ve often thought that to some extent this university/vocational thing is internet hot air. The fundamental problem here is that an awful lot of people who took on education (latterly at the cost of significant debt) and who do work hard are sill seeing social mobility downwards. Is education really the key to social mobility outside of relatively low numbers? Blair fixated on tertiary education buy it’s hard to see that as having really done much. But to my mind it is fanciful to think that just turning out a load of tradesmen will somehow bring about change.
We’ve had several attempts, often well-meaning, at this mythic vocational training, often ruinously expensive. Look up University Technology Colleges.
We can, I think reasonably, question to what extent hard and fast immigration has brought about or accelerated bad trends with respect to social mobility. Immigration is not the full picture. If we want a economy that facilitates serious social mobility then we need one that not just accommodates the skills in colleges and universities, but preferences domestic young. We need owner occupation as a norm and we need the young to start off in life not saddled with debt. We need wages, not jobs.
It wouldn’t be cheap and the sugar rush of foreign labour would always be there to tempt. No political party seems to be talking about such an economy.
We are all suffering from the result of the bigotry of low expectations that has ruined British education and betrayed millions. Unless Labour want to admit this and change course they are still a big part of the problem.
We are all suffering from the result of the bigotry of low expectations that has ruined British education and betrayed millions. Unless Labour want to admit this and change course they are still a big part of the problem.
How many comprehensives, especially in the inner city are capable of educating students to Grade A star in Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry, STEP 2and 3 Maths and languages, such that pupils can enter top 5 universities? Some employers in engineering will only recruit from Cambridge and Imperial and to read maths at these universities requires STEP 2 and or 3.
When it comes to languages students with the grades to read these subjects at top 5 universities largely from best grammar and public schools.
Now compare level of maths, science and language skills to start an apprenticeship to an electrician or mechanic in Switzerland to Britain. The Swiss complete their training at level which is close to an HND. A recent plane built by the European consortium was wired incorrectly.
Those trained under City and Guilds call NVQ Not Very Qualified. A lady who was the daughter a lady who owned a restaurant studied catering NVQ :NVQ 1 was boil water and NVQ was put bag in water. Perhaps she she was slightly too critical bt not much. When coming to vocational training look at how British people compare to the Swiss who provide the best in the World.
Since 1945 Western Education has done the complete oppositer of understanding that to develop fortitude, the body and mind must be tempered and then tested by adversity. Who wants to fly in a plane wired by an electrician who is tired by midday because they are unfit then makes mistakes?
The ruling class comes from jobs where people can speak drivel and make mistakes and noone is killed.
The ‘best’ Chambers only recruit from Oxbridge & Eton.
What about Winchester?
What about Winchester?
And even a top grade language A level doesn’t mean that you write correctly. I was shocked to find recently that A level is a B2 on the European Framework of language standards.
The ‘best’ Chambers only recruit from Oxbridge & Eton.
And even a top grade language A level doesn’t mean that you write correctly. I was shocked to find recently that A level is a B2 on the European Framework of language standards.
How many comprehensives, especially in the inner city are capable of educating students to Grade A star in Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry, STEP 2and 3 Maths and languages, such that pupils can enter top 5 universities? Some employers in engineering will only recruit from Cambridge and Imperial and to read maths at these universities requires STEP 2 and or 3.
When it comes to languages students with the grades to read these subjects at top 5 universities largely from best grammar and public schools.
Now compare level of maths, science and language skills to start an apprenticeship to an electrician or mechanic in Switzerland to Britain. The Swiss complete their training at level which is close to an HND. A recent plane built by the European consortium was wired incorrectly.
Those trained under City and Guilds call NVQ Not Very Qualified. A lady who was the daughter a lady who owned a restaurant studied catering NVQ :NVQ 1 was boil water and NVQ was put bag in water. Perhaps she she was slightly too critical bt not much. When coming to vocational training look at how British people compare to the Swiss who provide the best in the World.
Since 1945 Western Education has done the complete oppositer of understanding that to develop fortitude, the body and mind must be tempered and then tested by adversity. Who wants to fly in a plane wired by an electrician who is tired by midday because they are unfit then makes mistakes?
The ruling class comes from jobs where people can speak drivel and make mistakes and noone is killed.
The Labour Party is broadly sympathetic to the UK voting age being lowered to 16. This from wikipedia:
So these proposed reforms attempt to convince older people that youngsters have the intellectual and rhetorical skills for citizenship and deciding the future of their country. And giving everyone shiny prizes at school means the youngsters themselves will be grateful.
Couple this with allowing EU citizens residing here to vote, and the ongoing flood of immigrants and their descendants (he took the knee for a reason!), and our goose is pretty much cooked. Open borders, the destruction of our culture, and back into Europe. The electorate didn’t like the previous Labour offering, so Starmer has reformed the Party, and is bent on reforming the electorate.
The Labour Party is broadly sympathetic to the UK voting age being lowered to 16. This from wikipedia:
So these proposed reforms attempt to convince older people that youngsters have the intellectual and rhetorical skills for citizenship and deciding the future of their country. And giving everyone shiny prizes at school means the youngsters themselves will be grateful.
Couple this with allowing EU citizens residing here to vote, and the ongoing flood of immigrants and their descendants (he took the knee for a reason!), and our goose is pretty much cooked. Open borders, the destruction of our culture, and back into Europe. The electorate didn’t like the previous Labour offering, so Starmer has reformed the Party, and is bent on reforming the electorate.
Starmer is walking proof of people who should not have access to education.. as I have said before, he is designed for the butler’s pantry or other below stairs and behind green baize door servitude.. but not, of course, the hunting stables or anywhere near the shoot staff.
Hilarious
So you trust him with the key to cellar and all the silver?
Hilarious
So you trust him with the key to cellar and all the silver?
Starmer is walking proof of people who should not have access to education.. as I have said before, he is designed for the butler’s pantry or other below stairs and behind green baize door servitude.. but not, of course, the hunting stables or anywhere near the shoot staff.
Clearly he and Reeves need to tread carefully as the dire position they may inherit will undermine the ability to make big immediate changes. Nonetheless you can discern some key themes, one of which is a re-emphasis on vocational and skills training.
Been remarkable post Brexit how little the Right has focused on this whilst foaming at the mouth about immigration. They clearly have some linkage. The problem is it’s difficult to keep blaming a Blob and then have to draw attention to such an obvious education and industrial policy you’ve been lacking.
You could have just commented about education policy but you couldn’t contain yourself. “Foaming at the mouth about immigration”. So once again is importing hundreds of thousands of people year on year sustainable and seriously WHAT IS IT with the Left’s obsession with mass immigration, be honest, as hard as it is for you.
New Labour wanted to send as many young people off to university to do “Blob” friendly degrees and not develop skills that were actually valuable to the economy.
As for the Tories, they simply don’t care either way, as long as they enrich themselves.
Groan, back on the blaming Labour 13 yrs after they left office.
Surely you can grasp that if you wanted less immigration you needed a proper education and industrial strategy years ago? Err, maybe not. Maybe people really, really don’t ‘get’ what they have to think about if they want their world to be a certain way.
Did it take you 12 hours to come up with that lame response. Deflection and dishonesty is the only thing you bring to these discussions.
“Surely you can grasp that if you wanted less immigration you needed a proper education and industrial strategy years ago?”.
Yes, so why did New Labour abandon that and outsourced everything to mass immigration and a part time service economy?
Actually was out most of yesterday so didn’t get chance to respond instantly to you AR, apologies. Didn’t realise the delay would offend but thanks for the patience.
Let’s put the silliness about blaming all this on a party not been in power for 13yrs aside for a moment – you’ll have heard the ‘New’ Conservatives announce their ‘new’ idea in the week to stop any immigration associated with staffing vacancies in care homes and the home care sector. As there are 140k Vacancies and people are languishing in hospitals awaiting a care placement what alternative do you think the ‘New Cons’ proffered instead? Err, nothing. No ideas at all.
Now are you one of those where a slogan is where it starts and finishes or not.
You should read more slowly and understand better. This from my original reply to you
“As for the Tories, they simply don’t care either way, as long as they enrich themselves”.
Judging by Welsh Labour’s changes to the schools curriculum that high skill, high paid workforce will be a long way off…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw4vk7nzg4wo.amp
He’s right about the tories though – they really don’t give a sh*t
As I’ve already said.
As I’ve already said.
Ok, put the Tories to one side for the moment, what would you do about the 140k care sector vacancies?
Oh, we could import another +250k more people like the past 25 years, because it’s been working out so very well, hasn’t it. What’s that now 7 million odd extra people (see the paradox here)
I know you find it difficult to admit but mass immigration is now a discredited ideology that has caused economic and social damage that will take generations to repair. So thanks for that.
I’d welcome reduction in immigration. The size of the net growth creates problems, so I suspect our difference is one of degrees and how one handles specific problems.
I note you duck the question. Why is that? Want to understand.
Duck what question, is sophistry the only argument you use? Actually I find it is you that never answers the question.
Paraphrasing you – I want a reduction in numbers but I won’t go into details. Immigration is a great policy, can’t explain why but it is and if there are any problems, best ignore them cos it’s awkward.
Read this (again, sigh):
https://medium.com/@thdhmo/making-sensibles-swivel-eyed-immigrationism-as-ideology-18a25148eed
Duck what question, is sophistry the only argument you use? Actually I find it is you that never answers the question.
Paraphrasing you – I want a reduction in numbers but I won’t go into details. Immigration is a great policy, can’t explain why but it is and if there are any problems, best ignore them cos it’s awkward.
Read this (again, sigh):
https://medium.com/@thdhmo/making-sensibles-swivel-eyed-immigrationism-as-ideology-18a25148eed
I’d welcome reduction in immigration. The size of the net growth creates problems, so I suspect our difference is one of degrees and how one handles specific problems.
I note you duck the question. Why is that? Want to understand.
How does it feel coming up with a policy that made Tories and their backers exceedingly rich and everyone else miserable.
Err, what policy you referring to? Could be quite a few but I’m not grasping the link you are making.
Mass immigration… obviously and if you can’t spot the link, I have to question either your honesty or your intelligence. How about both.
Mass immigration… obviously and if you can’t spot the link, I have to question either your honesty or your intelligence. How about both.
Err, what policy you referring to? Could be quite a few but I’m not grasping the link you are making.
Oh, we could import another +250k more people like the past 25 years, because it’s been working out so very well, hasn’t it. What’s that now 7 million odd extra people (see the paradox here)
I know you find it difficult to admit but mass immigration is now a discredited ideology that has caused economic and social damage that will take generations to repair. So thanks for that.
How does it feel coming up with a policy that made Tories and their backers exceedingly rich and everyone else miserable.
He’s right about the tories though – they really don’t give a sh*t
Ok, put the Tories to one side for the moment, what would you do about the 140k care sector vacancies?
Like, “Education, education, education”?
You mean that kind of vapid 3 word slogan?
He’s not in power and probably won’t be for a further 18mths.
Nonetheless an indication of focus, and particularly the vocational training emphasis.
The problem is when a Right wing Govt of 13yrs still can’t get beyond slogans.
“Nonetheless an indication of focus, and particularly the vocational training emphasis”
Which New Labour abandoned for mass immigration and a questionable expansion of the universities and the third sector (NGOs, quangos, think tanks and “charities”).
Perhaps you work for one of these.
You still think I’m a Tory supporter, bless.
Starmer is not new Labour. New Labour last in power 13yrs ago (if one sees Brown as New Labour).
You have no answer whatsoever to the care sector shortage do you. Therefore you’re just raging in the wind.
Almost certainly your destiny is to end up being cared for in your dotage by an immigrant or relative of, and whilst our senses and awareness narrow in old age, you’ll be v grateful someone is there.
Not raging at the wind, more projection from you as usual. You seem to think the country has an infinite carrying capacity, it doesn’t Why should we import millions of people per decade to look after us and pay them a pittance to do so, I suppose we must since the political parties have made a complete mess of things over the last 30 years in every single aspect: education, personal responsibility, health/social care and of course, the economy.
Not raging at the wind, more projection from you as usual. You seem to think the country has an infinite carrying capacity, it doesn’t Why should we import millions of people per decade to look after us and pay them a pittance to do so, I suppose we must since the political parties have made a complete mess of things over the last 30 years in every single aspect: education, personal responsibility, health/social care and of course, the economy.
Starmer is not new Labour. New Labour last in power 13yrs ago (if one sees Brown as New Labour).
You have no answer whatsoever to the care sector shortage do you. Therefore you’re just raging in the wind.
Almost certainly your destiny is to end up being cared for in your dotage by an immigrant or relative of, and whilst our senses and awareness narrow in old age, you’ll be v grateful someone is there.
“Nonetheless an indication of focus, and particularly the vocational training emphasis”
Which New Labour abandoned for mass immigration and a questionable expansion of the universities and the third sector (NGOs, quangos, think tanks and “charities”).
Perhaps you work for one of these.
You still think I’m a Tory supporter, bless.
He’s not in power and probably won’t be for a further 18mths.
Nonetheless an indication of focus, and particularly the vocational training emphasis.
The problem is when a Right wing Govt of 13yrs still can’t get beyond slogans.
You should read more slowly and understand better. This from my original reply to you
“As for the Tories, they simply don’t care either way, as long as they enrich themselves”.
Judging by Welsh Labour’s changes to the schools curriculum that high skill, high paid workforce will be a long way off…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw4vk7nzg4wo.amp
Like, “Education, education, education”?
You mean that kind of vapid 3 word slogan?
Actually was out most of yesterday so didn’t get chance to respond instantly to you AR, apologies. Didn’t realise the delay would offend but thanks for the patience.
Let’s put the silliness about blaming all this on a party not been in power for 13yrs aside for a moment – you’ll have heard the ‘New’ Conservatives announce their ‘new’ idea in the week to stop any immigration associated with staffing vacancies in care homes and the home care sector. As there are 140k Vacancies and people are languishing in hospitals awaiting a care placement what alternative do you think the ‘New Cons’ proffered instead? Err, nothing. No ideas at all.
Now are you one of those where a slogan is where it starts and finishes or not.
The Butler Act of 1944 suggested splitting education into three streams at the age of eleven years the same as the Swiss. Labour removed grammar schools and introduced progressive education where excellence was denigrated.
Labour has removed evening schools where people can obtain degree level education in subjects such as engineering. Products of evening schools include Mitchell- Spitfire, de Havilland- Mosquito, Camm- Hurricane, Wallis – Bouncing Bomb and swing wing technology. Labour promotes equality of the lowest common denominator, diversity , equity, the banning of correcting pupils with red pens, streaming, etc, these are counter to the mentality required for advanced high tech precision engineering.The idea that someone who could pass the Cambridge entrance exam and win a scholarship or one to Imperial and read maths, physics or engineering, can be taught in the same class as someone who struggles with CSE, is laughable.
An Industrial Policy which is controlled by the unskilled unions and their leaders such as Cousins was tried by Wilson:it was adisaster. How many teachers have worked in advanced engineering or scientific manufacturing?Very few so they are clueless as to what it takes.
Obviously I’ll contend some of that historical reading not quite the full picture CH, but I wouldn’t dismiss it all either. Remember though Comps came in because the resource allocation was grossly unfair, but also at that time many vocational apprenticeships still existed and only c10% went onto to Uni. It was fundamentally a different period. Nonetheless as I say I don’t dismiss it all.
The question is what we do now, and there has seemed little doubt we need a better linked education/industrial strategy, esp post Brexit and esp with our current reliance on low skills labour/immigration. It is the paucity of thinking about this on the Right, whilst holding the levers or power, that is so disappointing, I’m sure as much for it’s supporters as for those of us who want our Country to succeed.
Many or most Engineers pre 1960s never went to university. They attended night school and took Instititutions Exams; Civil, Mechanical and Electrical being most common or U of London Extra Mural degree. Hence most Engineers had C.Eng, MICE or MIEE or MIMECH E after their name and no B.Sc.
Introduce three part education system and bring back O Levels for all. In maths , allow bright children to take B syllabus which included calculus and take them one to two years early. This means by the time they start A Levels they have one or two years of calculus. Let pupils take A levels in year 12 and introduce University Scholarship for year 13. Historically those who obtained Special /Scholarship Papers were awarded scholarships.
Scholarship level – Wikipedia
By educating year 13 to first year degree standards( old Oxbridge /University scholarship Level ) this enables the three pre 1988 degree to be completed in two years and the third year was masters standard. This enabled students to leave university with a masters level education at the age of twenty, so reduced costs and speeded up the earning of a salary.This took place at Imperial and Cambridge where third year of degree was masters standard.
All pupils take 4 A levels and need Latin and other european language at O level for university.
Allow people to leave school at 14 years of age provided they return to take acdemic subjects relevant to job but to include maths, physics, chemistry and a European language.
Re- Introduce night schools to teach engineering, law, surveying, chemistry, physics, accountancy , commercial art, architecture. Part 1 HND/technician standard, Part 2 Imperial /Cambridge degree Standard. Four nights a week, three hours per night, 46 weeks per year. People can take as long as they want. Night schools allow people to progress at a rate they find comfortable and stop at ONC, HNC/D or degree level.
People have a problem with maths because the syllabus and teachers have no experience of engineering/industry and therefore of it’s application an hence importance. Introduce far more engineering and business applications.
Severe pruning of humanities subjects school and university degrees; Humanities reduced to languages- modern and classical, history, geography, economics, arts , music.
Give humanities teachers three years to re-train so they can teach lnguages. The Foreign Office allow 1.5 years to train an arabist so any teacher should be capable of teaching a European language after three years.
Ensure all vocation training require higher acdemic standards than Switzerland, has far larger syllabus and far more rigorous testing. Make all British qualifications the toughest in the World and prune the massive expansion of humanities subjects which lack scholastic rigour which has taken place post mid 1960s.Pre 1920 one had to pass a paper in Greek to enter Oxford. This was dropped becuse minor grammar schools often could not teach Greek.
PPE was introduced in 1922 at Oxford and Britain has declined ever since. It is difficult to think of any person who has a PPE degree who has reversed Britain’s decline.
Languages require a certain level of intelligence which many of those in teaching no longer have.
I thought they were all scholars. Is not a degree proof one is a scholar ?
I thought they were all scholars. Is not a degree proof one is a scholar ?
Languages require a certain level of intelligence which many of those in teaching no longer have.
Many or most Engineers pre 1960s never went to university. They attended night school and took Institutions Exams; Civil, Mechanical and Electrical being most common or U of London Extra Mural degree. Hence most Engineers had C.Eng, MICE or MIEE or MIMECH E after their name and no B.Sc.
Introduce three part education system and bring back O Levels for all. In maths , allow bright children to take B syllabus which included calculus and take them one to two years early. This means by the time they start A Levels they have one or two years of calculus. Let pupils take A levels in year 12 and introduce University Scholarship for year 13. Historically those who obtained Special /Scholarship Papers were awarded scholarships.
Scholarship level – Wikipedia
By educating year 13 to first year degree standards( old Oxbridge /University scholarship Level ) this enables the three pre 1988 degree to be completed in two years and the third year was masters standard. This enabled students to leave university with a masters level education at the age of twenty, so reduced costs and speeded up the earning of a salary. This took place at Imperial and Cambridge where third year of degree was masters standard.
All pupils take 4 A levels and need Latin and other European language at O level for university.
Allow people to leave school at 14 years of age provided they return to take academic subjects relevant to job but to include maths, physics, chemistry and a European language.
Re- Introduce night schools to teach engineering, law, surveying, chemistry, physics, accountancy , commercial art, architecture. Part 1 HND/technician standard, Part 2 Imperial /Cambridge degree Standard. Four nights a week, three hours per night, 46 weeks per year. People can take as long as they want. Night schools allow people to progress at a rate they find comfortable and stop at ONC, HNC/D or degree level.
People have a problem with maths because the syllabus and teachers have no experience of engineering/industry and therefore of it’s application an hence importance. Introduce far more engineering and business applications.
Severe pruning of humanities subjects school and university degrees; Humanities reduced to languages- modern and classical, history, geography, economics, arts , music.
Give humanities teachers three years to re-train so they can teach languages. The Foreign Office allow 1.5 years to train an Arabist so any teacher should be capable of teaching a European language after three years.
Ensure all vocation training require higher academic standards than Switzerland, has far larger syllabus and far more rigorous testing. Make all British qualifications the toughest in the World and prune the massive expansion of humanities subjects which lack scholastic rigour which has taken place post mid 1960s.Pre 1920 one had to pass a paper in Greek to enter Oxford. This was dropped because minor grammar schools often could not teach Greek.
PPE was introduced in 1922 at Oxford and Britain has declined ever since. It is difficult to think of any person who has a PPE degree who has reversed Britain’s decline.
Many or most Engineers pre 1960s never went to university. They attended night school and took Instititutions Exams; Civil, Mechanical and Electrical being most common or U of London Extra Mural degree. Hence most Engineers had C.Eng, MICE or MIEE or MIMECH E after their name and no B.Sc.
Introduce three part education system and bring back O Levels for all. In maths , allow bright children to take B syllabus which included calculus and take them one to two years early. This means by the time they start A Levels they have one or two years of calculus. Let pupils take A levels in year 12 and introduce University Scholarship for year 13. Historically those who obtained Special /Scholarship Papers were awarded scholarships.
Scholarship level – Wikipedia
By educating year 13 to first year degree standards( old Oxbridge /University scholarship Level ) this enables the three pre 1988 degree to be completed in two years and the third year was masters standard. This enabled students to leave university with a masters level education at the age of twenty, so reduced costs and speeded up the earning of a salary.This took place at Imperial and Cambridge where third year of degree was masters standard.
All pupils take 4 A levels and need Latin and other european language at O level for university.
Allow people to leave school at 14 years of age provided they return to take acdemic subjects relevant to job but to include maths, physics, chemistry and a European language.
Re- Introduce night schools to teach engineering, law, surveying, chemistry, physics, accountancy , commercial art, architecture. Part 1 HND/technician standard, Part 2 Imperial /Cambridge degree Standard. Four nights a week, three hours per night, 46 weeks per year. People can take as long as they want. Night schools allow people to progress at a rate they find comfortable and stop at ONC, HNC/D or degree level.
People have a problem with maths because the syllabus and teachers have no experience of engineering/industry and therefore of it’s application an hence importance. Introduce far more engineering and business applications.
Severe pruning of humanities subjects school and university degrees; Humanities reduced to languages- modern and classical, history, geography, economics, arts , music.
Give humanities teachers three years to re-train so they can teach lnguages. The Foreign Office allow 1.5 years to train an arabist so any teacher should be capable of teaching a European language after three years.
Ensure all vocation training require higher acdemic standards than Switzerland, has far larger syllabus and far more rigorous testing. Make all British qualifications the toughest in the World and prune the massive expansion of humanities subjects which lack scholastic rigour which has taken place post mid 1960s.Pre 1920 one had to pass a paper in Greek to enter Oxford. This was dropped becuse minor grammar schools often could not teach Greek.
PPE was introduced in 1922 at Oxford and Britain has declined ever since. It is difficult to think of any person who has a PPE degree who has reversed Britain’s decline.
Many or most Engineers pre 1960s never went to university. They attended night school and took Institutions Exams; Civil, Mechanical and Electrical being most common or U of London Extra Mural degree. Hence most Engineers had C.Eng, MICE or MIEE or MIMECH E after their name and no B.Sc.
Introduce three part education system and bring back O Levels for all. In maths , allow bright children to take B syllabus which included calculus and take them one to two years early. This means by the time they start A Levels they have one or two years of calculus. Let pupils take A levels in year 12 and introduce University Scholarship for year 13. Historically those who obtained Special /Scholarship Papers were awarded scholarships.
Scholarship level – Wikipedia
By educating year 13 to first year degree standards( old Oxbridge /University scholarship Level ) this enables the three pre 1988 degree to be completed in two years and the third year was masters standard. This enabled students to leave university with a masters level education at the age of twenty, so reduced costs and speeded up the earning of a salary. This took place at Imperial and Cambridge where third year of degree was masters standard.
All pupils take 4 A levels and need Latin and other European language at O level for university.
Allow people to leave school at 14 years of age provided they return to take academic subjects relevant to job but to include maths, physics, chemistry and a European language.
Re- Introduce night schools to teach engineering, law, surveying, chemistry, physics, accountancy , commercial art, architecture. Part 1 HND/technician standard, Part 2 Imperial /Cambridge degree Standard. Four nights a week, three hours per night, 46 weeks per year. People can take as long as they want. Night schools allow people to progress at a rate they find comfortable and stop at ONC, HNC/D or degree level.
People have a problem with maths because the syllabus and teachers have no experience of engineering/industry and therefore of it’s application an hence importance. Introduce far more engineering and business applications.
Severe pruning of humanities subjects school and university degrees; Humanities reduced to languages- modern and classical, history, geography, economics, arts , music.
Give humanities teachers three years to re-train so they can teach languages. The Foreign Office allow 1.5 years to train an Arabist so any teacher should be capable of teaching a European language after three years.
Ensure all vocation training require higher academic standards than Switzerland, has far larger syllabus and far more rigorous testing. Make all British qualifications the toughest in the World and prune the massive expansion of humanities subjects which lack scholastic rigour which has taken place post mid 1960s.Pre 1920 one had to pass a paper in Greek to enter Oxford. This was dropped because minor grammar schools often could not teach Greek.
PPE was introduced in 1922 at Oxford and Britain has declined ever since. It is difficult to think of any person who has a PPE degree who has reversed Britain’s decline.
Obviously I’ll contend some of that historical reading not quite the full picture CH, but I wouldn’t dismiss it all either. Remember though Comps came in because the resource allocation was grossly unfair, but also at that time many vocational apprenticeships still existed and only c10% went onto to Uni. It was fundamentally a different period. Nonetheless as I say I don’t dismiss it all.
The question is what we do now, and there has seemed little doubt we need a better linked education/industrial strategy, esp post Brexit and esp with our current reliance on low skills labour/immigration. It is the paucity of thinking about this on the Right, whilst holding the levers or power, that is so disappointing, I’m sure as much for it’s supporters as for those of us who want our Country to succeed.
Did it take you 12 hours to come up with that lame response. Deflection and dishonesty is the only thing you bring to these discussions.
“Surely you can grasp that if you wanted less immigration you needed a proper education and industrial strategy years ago?”.
Yes, so why did New Labour abandon that and outsourced everything to mass immigration and a part time service economy?
The Butler Act of 1944 suggested splitting education into three streams at the age of eleven years the same as the Swiss. Labour removed grammar schools and introduced progressive education where excellence was denigrated.
Labour has removed evening schools where people can obtain degree level education in subjects such as engineering. Products of evening schools include Mitchell- Spitfire, de Havilland- Mosquito, Camm- Hurricane, Wallis – Bouncing Bomb and swing wing technology. Labour promotes equality of the lowest common denominator, diversity , equity, the banning of correcting pupils with red pens, streaming, etc, these are counter to the mentality required for advanced high tech precision engineering.The idea that someone who could pass the Cambridge entrance exam and win a scholarship or one to Imperial and read maths, physics or engineering, can be taught in the same class as someone who struggles with CSE, is laughable.
An Industrial Policy which is controlled by the unskilled unions and their leaders such as Cousins was tried by Wilson:it was adisaster. How many teachers have worked in advanced engineering or scientific manufacturing?Very few so they are clueless as to what it takes.
Groan, back on the blaming Labour 13 yrs after they left office.
Surely you can grasp that if you wanted less immigration you needed a proper education and industrial strategy years ago? Err, maybe not. Maybe people really, really don’t ‘get’ what they have to think about if they want their world to be a certain way.
Lashing out in all directions in your desperate attempt to get noticed.
I don’t bother to downvote you – Well, it would confer on you a significance that you don’t deserve.
Significance. The edit button no longer functions!
No probs. A comment, or even two, more than enough. Just pleased you read my stuff and take sufficient time to make a comment.
No probs. A comment, or even two, more than enough. Just pleased you read my stuff and take sufficient time to make a comment.
Brutal 🙂
What a nasty comment – chapeau!
Why should I pander to this Blairite?
Why should I pander to this Blairite?
Significance. The edit button no longer functions!
Brutal 🙂
What a nasty comment – chapeau!
Every one of your posts, watson, reads as though it were approved (if not written) by Alistair Campbell. Are you chums with the ageing spin doctor?
Thanks for compliment. Never met him but I’ll take it.
Sock puppet account
Thanks for compliment. Never met him but I’ll take it.
Sock puppet account
Yes, who cares about squeezed wages, unaffordable rents and disintegration of public services so long as house prices keep going up and one can get a cheap nanny, eh?
You could have just commented about education policy but you couldn’t contain yourself. “Foaming at the mouth about immigration”. So once again is importing hundreds of thousands of people year on year sustainable and seriously WHAT IS IT with the Left’s obsession with mass immigration, be honest, as hard as it is for you.
New Labour wanted to send as many young people off to university to do “Blob” friendly degrees and not develop skills that were actually valuable to the economy.
As for the Tories, they simply don’t care either way, as long as they enrich themselves.
Lashing out in all directions in your desperate attempt to get noticed.
I don’t bother to downvote you – Well, it would confer on you a significance that you don’t deserve.
Every one of your posts, watson, reads as though it were approved (if not written) by Alistair Campbell. Are you chums with the ageing spin doctor?
Yes, who cares about squeezed wages, unaffordable rents and disintegration of public services so long as house prices keep going up and one can get a cheap nanny, eh?
Clearly he and Reeves need to tread carefully as the dire position they may inherit will undermine the ability to make big immediate changes. Nonetheless you can discern some key themes, one of which is a re-emphasis on vocational and skills training.
Been remarkable post Brexit how little the Right has focused on this whilst foaming at the mouth about immigration. They clearly have some linkage. The problem is it’s difficult to keep blaming a Blob and then have to draw attention to such an obvious education and industrial policy you’ve been lacking.