Main Edition
US
FR
April 10, 2023 - 11:00am
Viktor Orbán’s ideological isolation from the rest of the West is deepening. This weekend, it was reported that documents leaked from US security services include the claim that Hungary views America as “one of its most significant geopolitical adversaries”. Highlighting the seriousness of Hungary’s rift with Western allies, the revelation came just hours after France and Germany finally joined an EU lawsuit at the European Court of Justice against Budapest’s conservative stance on LGBT issues.
Paris and Berlin only just made the deadline for joining the European Commission’s case against Hungary’s “Child Protection Act”. On Saturday, the German Foreign Ministry wrote that the decision was taken because Hungary’s “anti-queer” law violates “the common values of the EU” that are “the DNA of our free and open society.”
Fifteen countries — more than half of the bloc, mostly consisting of its wealthy northern and western states — eventually joined Brussels’s legal case. Along with France and Germany the late additions included Finland, which, humiliatingly for Budapest, joined the case immediately after Hungary finally rubber-stamped its NATO membership application. Hungary had made a point of playing hardball over Finnish NATO membership in order to highlight the country’s alleged disrespect for Hungarian policies. On Sunday night, the speaker of the Hungarian parliament declared that the Finns had stabbed Hungary in the back by joining the lawsuit.
Progressives and LGBT lobby groups are already feeling triumphant — they’re desperate for Orbán to be left with egg on his face because Hungary’s “Child Protection Act” repudiates the prevailing Western ideological climate on LGBT freedoms. It prohibits the portrayal of LGBT themes in materials accessible to children and, similarly to Ron DeSantis’s so-called “Don’t Say Gay” law in Florida, imposes stringent controls on sex education.
The key question is whether the European Commission and EU member states joining the lawsuit think Orbán is bluffing and will back down in the face of legal pressure, or whether they actually want a potentially irrevocable ideological split with Hungary. Orbán has doubled down in recent months, making resistance to “gender ideology” his key pledge to voters along with refusal to be “dragged into” the war in Ukraine.
Hungarians have already been primed for a huge ideological rift with the rest of the EU. Orbán asserted in a recent radio interview that “there is such a gap between our two positions that I do not see how it can be bridged. And as we are not going to give in, Brussels will eventually have to give in.”
Join the discussion
Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber
To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.
Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.
SubscribeAnd I remember when the lying LGBTQIP muppets claimed they just wanted to be left alone, that didn’t last long. now they want to turn the whole world in to a giant gay disco, where everyday is pride day and no child is free from brainwashing
Well done to Hungry and Victor Orban
we’ve gone from “we just wanna pee” and “we just want to love like you normies do” to “GIVE US YOUR CHILDREN”
utterly deranged
Well said. In tearing Hungary away from the elites of the modern west he is keeping his country close to its people – and, incidentally – close to people everywhere.
Don’t mistake gay people as a whole for the radical trans activists. I certainly don’t support their agenda.
we’ve gone from “we just wanna pee” and “we just want to love like you normies do” to “GIVE US YOUR CHILDREN”
utterly deranged
Well said. In tearing Hungary away from the elites of the modern west he is keeping his country close to its people – and, incidentally – close to people everywhere.
Don’t mistake gay people as a whole for the radical trans activists. I certainly don’t support their agenda.
And I remember when the lying LGBTQIP muppets claimed they just wanted to be left alone, that didn’t last long. now they want to turn the whole world in to a giant gay disco, where everyday is pride day and no child is free from brainwashing
Well done to Hungry and Victor Orban
I think this shows one of the contradictions at the heart of the EU, the notion of “common values”. These values are clearly not arrived at by consensus, or this dispute would not exist. I am guessing that if forced to choose, there are more countries in the world that would side with Orban than with the EU here. This does not prevent us from doing business with them. It’s when you try to create a superstate that it becomes a problem.
In passing, Hungary is absolutely correct to see the US as “one of its most significant geopolitical adversaries”. The rest of Europe needs to wake up to this.
The contradiction is larger than that. It’s between liberalism’s claim that universal human rights that shall not be infringed and democracy’s claim that legitimacy rests with the consent of the governed.
Both of these are byproducts of the Enlightenment (thanks John Locke), but is was always a shotgun wedding held together only by 1700 years of shared Judeo-Christian cultural heritage. Having burned through that, every “liberal-democracy” must now choose which it values more: liberalism or democracy. The EU has elevated the former; Hungary the latter.
Yet again, I will tout “The Demon in Democracy” by Legutko as a classic work illustrating exactly this dichotomy at the heart of Europe. It’s very readable and not too long.
I absolutely love that book. Why Liberalism Failed by Deneen is also great. I just finished Legutko’s newest book, The Cunning of Freedom. For people who’ve read Aristotle and Plato and Aquinas, it’s probably old hat. For the rest of us, it’s a great introduction to the 3 major definitions of freedom that have existed in the history of the Western world.
I know only enough of EU politics to have a prejudice, and even less of Hungarian politics, but being only a few pages into Legutko’s little book, I am inclined to agree with you.
I absolutely love that book. Why Liberalism Failed by Deneen is also great. I just finished Legutko’s newest book, The Cunning of Freedom. For people who’ve read Aristotle and Plato and Aquinas, it’s probably old hat. For the rest of us, it’s a great introduction to the 3 major definitions of freedom that have existed in the history of the Western world.
I know only enough of EU politics to have a prejudice, and even less of Hungarian politics, but being only a few pages into Legutko’s little book, I am inclined to agree with you.
Very, very incisive comment.
Yet again, I will tout “The Demon in Democracy” by Legutko as a classic work illustrating exactly this dichotomy at the heart of Europe. It’s very readable and not too long.
Very, very incisive comment.
The contradiction is larger than that. It’s between liberalism’s claim that universal human rights that shall not be infringed and democracy’s claim that legitimacy rests with the consent of the governed.
Both of these are byproducts of the Enlightenment (thanks John Locke), but is was always a shotgun wedding held together only by 1700 years of shared Judeo-Christian cultural heritage. Having burned through that, every “liberal-democracy” must now choose which it values more: liberalism or democracy. The EU has elevated the former; Hungary the latter.
I think this shows one of the contradictions at the heart of the EU, the notion of “common values”. These values are clearly not arrived at by consensus, or this dispute would not exist. I am guessing that if forced to choose, there are more countries in the world that would side with Orban than with the EU here. This does not prevent us from doing business with them. It’s when you try to create a superstate that it becomes a problem.
In passing, Hungary is absolutely correct to see the US as “one of its most significant geopolitical adversaries”. The rest of Europe needs to wake up to this.
Why is a trading bloc imposing LGBT values?
It’s not just a trading bloc – that’s why the Brits left
It’s not just a trading bloc – that’s why the Brits left
Why is a trading bloc imposing LGBT values?
“If neither side is willing to compromise, questions will become louder about whether Hungary really belongs in a union of nations that find its values abhorrent.”
Or maybe the questions will be more akin to “why in hell does the EU feel the need to impose faddish and sex obsessed ideologies everywhere?”
Or the National Front might win in France in 2027 (if Macron’s party survives that long) and France will suddenly have an mostly-Orban-aligned government.
Or the National Front might win in France in 2027 (if Macron’s party survives that long) and France will suddenly have an mostly-Orban-aligned government.
“If neither side is willing to compromise, questions will become louder about whether Hungary really belongs in a union of nations that find its values abhorrent.”
Or maybe the questions will be more akin to “why in hell does the EU feel the need to impose faddish and sex obsessed ideologies everywhere?”
The idea behind the insertion of LGBQT pedagogy into school curricula is to ‘teach sexual identities’. Children do not have sexual identities; indeed, their identities are still forming. LGBQT pedagogy is about sexualizing children into LGBQT lifestyles in order for these to gain wider mainstream acceptance. The reason many Western governments are behind LGBQT pedagogy is that it serves as a cover for them to introduce undemocratic reforms and policies that deeply impact family structures and afford the state greater powers of intervention in the lives of its citizens.
https://web.archive.org/web/20191028192839id_/https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/D2FF3A537FB39E4A11B00F593B8F945B/S1743923X19000576a.pdf/div-class-title-and-if-the-opponents-of-gender-ideology-are-right-gender-politics-europeanization-and-the-democratic-deficit-div.pdf
True, but behind this again lies Marxist hostility to the family, to the assumptions which enshrine and protect the family, to the enduring human nature which those assumptions express and ultimately to any notion of nature or reality. How many fingers am I holding up, Winston? The “right answer”, you may recall, is as many as the party likes. Orwell got there first and the left has never forgiven him for his exposure of the malicious Gnosticism which lies at the heart of its project. And it is that same malicious Gnosticism – that reality is perception, currently controlled by “bad actors” and ripe for takeover by “good” – meaning the Marxist themselves, of course – which is in the west’s driving seat. Hence the collapse and breakdown of borders, family, good order, artistic discipline, scientific objectivity and all the goods built up over centuries of civilisation. The barbarians never get anywhere until their allies, the decadents, take over the government.
True, but behind this again lies Marxist hostility to the family, to the assumptions which enshrine and protect the family, to the enduring human nature which those assumptions express and ultimately to any notion of nature or reality. How many fingers am I holding up, Winston? The “right answer”, you may recall, is as many as the party likes. Orwell got there first and the left has never forgiven him for his exposure of the malicious Gnosticism which lies at the heart of its project. And it is that same malicious Gnosticism – that reality is perception, currently controlled by “bad actors” and ripe for takeover by “good” – meaning the Marxist themselves, of course – which is in the west’s driving seat. Hence the collapse and breakdown of borders, family, good order, artistic discipline, scientific objectivity and all the goods built up over centuries of civilisation. The barbarians never get anywhere until their allies, the decadents, take over the government.
The idea behind the insertion of LGBQT pedagogy into school curricula is to ‘teach sexual identities’. Children do not have sexual identities; indeed, their identities are still forming. LGBQT pedagogy is about sexualizing children into LGBQT lifestyles in order for these to gain wider mainstream acceptance. The reason many Western governments are behind LGBQT pedagogy is that it serves as a cover for them to introduce undemocratic reforms and policies that deeply impact family structures and afford the state greater powers of intervention in the lives of its citizens.
https://web.archive.org/web/20191028192839id_/https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/D2FF3A537FB39E4A11B00F593B8F945B/S1743923X19000576a.pdf/div-class-title-and-if-the-opponents-of-gender-ideology-are-right-gender-politics-europeanization-and-the-democratic-deficit-div.pdf
“They often assume that his Fidesz party’s conservative values are a mere smokescreen for gaining money and power”
They assume that because their current woke and trans activism is precisely that: a tool to maintain their power.
How best to make sure that increasing class inequality and widening income disparities don’t get translated into revolutionary action that might threaten the elites power? Distract people with talk of systemic racism and trans bullying!
Lefties project. Always.
Lefties project. Always.
“They often assume that his Fidesz party’s conservative values are a mere smokescreen for gaining money and power”
They assume that because their current woke and trans activism is precisely that: a tool to maintain their power.
How best to make sure that increasing class inequality and widening income disparities don’t get translated into revolutionary action that might threaten the elites power? Distract people with talk of systemic racism and trans bullying!
The EU is an authoritarian joke. Its so-called support for democracy ends when member states push back against the radical progressive ideology crippling the west. Hungary is a legit democracy. You either support democracy or not. You don’t have to agree with all the social policy coming from these democracies, but you have to support the will of the people living there. If the EU is so worried about human rights, maybe start with countries like China and Saudi Arabia. Stop propping up human rights abusers by not buying their products.
The EU is an authoritarian joke. Its so-called support for democracy ends when member states push back against the radical progressive ideology crippling the west. Hungary is a legit democracy. You either support democracy or not. You don’t have to agree with all the social policy coming from these democracies, but you have to support the will of the people living there. If the EU is so worried about human rights, maybe start with countries like China and Saudi Arabia. Stop propping up human rights abusers by not buying their products.
There is nothing in Florida’s child protection law that says “don’t say gay.” What the law clearly prohibits are faculty or staff in Florida’s public school system from discussing their sexuality (or anyone else’s) to children in k – 3 grade. This prohibition is both reasonable and largely supported by Florida voters.
The only negative is that the prohibition should have covered children through middle school ( through 8th grade).
It is just used as a term to confuse and denigrate. Mediocre usage of this term from this author.
It is just used as a term to confuse and denigrate. Mediocre usage of this term from this author.
There is nothing in Florida’s child protection law that says “don’t say gay.” What the law clearly prohibits are faculty or staff in Florida’s public school system from discussing their sexuality (or anyone else’s) to children in k – 3 grade. This prohibition is both reasonable and largely supported by Florida voters.
The only negative is that the prohibition should have covered children through middle school ( through 8th grade).
Good for Orban.
Standing against “Progressives and LGBT groups… desperate for Orbán to be left with egg on his face because Hungary’s “Child Protection Act” repudiates the prevailing Western ideological climate on LGBT freedoms.”
The prevailing Western ideological climate promotes serious child abuse and gender insanity. Should one just ignore those facts and capitulate to this prevailing climate?
There was a “prevailing ideological climate” during the Holocaust, the Holodomor, and the Spanish Inquisition. It is called evil.
Good for Orban.
Standing against “Progressives and LGBT groups… desperate for Orbán to be left with egg on his face because Hungary’s “Child Protection Act” repudiates the prevailing Western ideological climate on LGBT freedoms.”
The prevailing Western ideological climate promotes serious child abuse and gender insanity. Should one just ignore those facts and capitulate to this prevailing climate?
There was a “prevailing ideological climate” during the Holocaust, the Holodomor, and the Spanish Inquisition. It is called evil.
I stand with Victor Orban against the sexualisation, drugging, and mutilation of children.
I stand with Victor Orban against the sexualisation, drugging, and mutilation of children.
“the common values of the EU” that are “the DNA of our free and open society.”
The anti-democratic EU has “values”?
And FIFA has an Ethics Committee.
“the common values of the EU” that are “the DNA of our free and open society.”
The anti-democratic EU has “values”?
And FIFA has an Ethics Committee.
Some real teeth gnashing comments here
Some real teeth gnashing comments here
Protecting and promoting human rights and democracy is one of the founding values of the European Union (article 21 of the EU treaty). If Orban doesn’t agree with that then he can suggest Hungary leaves, but of course he doesn’t want to do that. He knows that’s not in his Country’s interest or he’d promulgate a Hungxit.
As regards the issue on which he doesn’t wish to comply – even the UK post Brexit has no problem with this. Preparing children for life is making sure that they understand the world they are growing up in. It is a world that is different from 20-30 years ago thank goodness. In Brexit Britain we’ve still been clear that children should leave school having learnt about LGBT relationships. The sky hasn’t fallen in. The idea that suddenly kids will all become something they are not is cobblers and not based on any evidence.
Children will find out about all sorts of things, including the diversity of our society, anyway – the question is where and how is it best to do so – in class, on the internet, or in the playground? You either encourage schools to discuss with children in class that there are all sorts of different, strong and loving families, including families with same-sex parents, while they are at primary school or you stick yours and their head in the sand. There is no reason why teaching children about the society that we live in and the different types of loving, healthy relationships that exist cannot be done in a way that respects everyone with the emphasis on the latter.
I think that the objections many people have are based on the view that we are not seeing ‘teaching’ being done, so much as indoctrination of an ideology which is not based upon objective reality, and which is not accepted by the majority of people.
Sorry, adult sexuality has no place in a classroom. Any educator teaching LGBQT-lifestyle classes to primary-school children is overstepping their bounds. Children that age have zero sexual identity nor any real concept of sex and adult relationships. At that age they are also highly susceptible to suggestion. I say this as someone who has taught primary-school children.
If people want to engage in homosexuality that’s up to them, but they need to leave children out of it. By validating families with same-sex parents we encourage a culture of surrogacy which further reduces children to mere commodities and lifestyle accessories.
In homosexual families the needs of the parents often supersede that of the child. If same-sex marriage was natural and wholesome why do homosexual couples crave the accoutrements of heterosexuality e.g. marriage and children?
Contrary to what the gay lobby claims children raised by same-sex parents “deeply feel the loss of a father or mother, no matter how much we love our gay parents.”These children know they are “powerless to stop the decision to deprive them of a father or mother,” he adds. And this decision comes with serious and often permanent consequences. For instance, they “feel disconnected from the gender cues of people around them,” and long for a role model of the opposite sex.While they love the people who raised them, they experience anger at their decision to deprive them of one or both biological parents—and “shame or guilt for resenting their loving parents.”The so-called “consensus” by psychologists and pediatricians on the soundness of same-sex parenting is “frankly bogus.” The truth is, there is no data to support that assertion.Instead, as political scientists Leon Kass of the University of Chicago and Harvey Mansfield of Harvard University note, “Claims that science provides support for constitutionalizing a right to same-sex marriage must rest necessarily on ideology”—and “ideology is not science.”https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065/
Missing the point in your indignation IMO. What I’ve seen the Grandkids get is just helping prepare them for a slightly different world to what you and I probably experienced. It’s not teaching them to be something they are not. And it’s a Tory Govt policy now with set guidance.
As regards the issue of whether same-sex parenting is always going to be deficient – my own childhood I feel was enriched by having both a caring Mum and Dad. But many children do not experience a loving, caring environment and that is arguably much more important. One can see that in many instances committed same-sex relationship can prove themselves as good as many mixed or single sex parents. How many kids have absent fathers? Do you rail at them as much? And furthermore same-sex couples have to properly plan for a family don’t they, whereas for many of the rest of us it can be an unplanned and ill considered accident!
It is true though that we don’t have any longitudinal studies that have reported any significant increase in childhood or adulthood problems arising from same sex parenting. And it may takes years to conclude. Human variability will no doubt give much scope for all sides to use it for their purposes in due course..
Fact is though once it’s happening no bad thing to prepare kids for it’s existence and that is the essence of the issue.
Leor Sapir
Interesting debate as to whether instinct to ‘kindness’ underpinned by apathy. I don’t agree of course. Easier to be judgmental in my experience.
A debate that relates back to Christian values, which may be a ‘driver’ for some of the antipathy towards this issue – I’m not a believer but have some appreciation. One senses the Right tends more to be concerned about the reduction in such values. But my critique of that is the Right has always had a narrow, self justifying interpretation of those values. Being judgemental was never out front instead of kindness for old JC. And the current Pope’s most famous statement is likely to be ‘who am I to judge’.
All slightly away from the original point of course, but worthy of a response. On the main point, my Grandkids are going to come across same sex families and already have friends at school from such. Being taught about this is no bad thing and having seen the materials used I actually thought was really well thought out and balanced.
Interesting debate as to whether instinct to ‘kindness’ underpinned by apathy. I don’t agree of course. Easier to be judgmental in my experience.
A debate that relates back to Christian values, which may be a ‘driver’ for some of the antipathy towards this issue – I’m not a believer but have some appreciation. One senses the Right tends more to be concerned about the reduction in such values. But my critique of that is the Right has always had a narrow, self justifying interpretation of those values. Being judgemental was never out front instead of kindness for old JC. And the current Pope’s most famous statement is likely to be ‘who am I to judge’.
All slightly away from the original point of course, but worthy of a response. On the main point, my Grandkids are going to come across same sex families and already have friends at school from such. Being taught about this is no bad thing and having seen the materials used I actually thought was really well thought out and balanced.
Leor Sapir
Missing the point in your indignation IMO. What I’ve seen the Grandkids get is just helping prepare them for a slightly different world to what you and I probably experienced. It’s not teaching them to be something they are not. And it’s a Tory Govt policy now with set guidance.
As regards the issue of whether same-sex parenting is always going to be deficient – my own childhood I feel was enriched by having both a caring Mum and Dad. But many children do not experience a loving, caring environment and that is arguably much more important. One can see that in many instances committed same-sex relationship can prove themselves as good as many mixed or single sex parents. How many kids have absent fathers? Do you rail at them as much? And furthermore same-sex couples have to properly plan for a family don’t they, whereas for many of the rest of us it can be an unplanned and ill considered accident!
It is true though that we don’t have any longitudinal studies that have reported any significant increase in childhood or adulthood problems arising from same sex parenting. And it may takes years to conclude. Human variability will no doubt give much scope for all sides to use it for their purposes in due course..
Fact is though once it’s happening no bad thing to prepare kids for it’s existence and that is the essence of the issue.
I’m beginning to regret that people might think you are me. Can you maybe give yourself a Christian name?
Christian name? Satire is not dead.
Anyhow in years to come you’ll be glad of ambiguity. You don’t need to thank me yet though.
Christian name? Satire is not dead.
Anyhow in years to come you’ll be glad of ambiguity. You don’t need to thank me yet though.
“Protecting and promoting human rights and democracy is one of the founding values of the European Union (article 21 of the EU treaty)”
But the EU is undermining Hungary’s democracy.
It would argue it’s defending it. An important distinction.
Defending democracy by lawfare against the enactments of a democratically elected government?!? Weird.
Democracy isn’t just the tyranny of the latest bunch elected. There are checks and balances in all the successful democracies. Curtailing press freedom and politicising judiciary not commensurate with this yet what Orban been doing.
Democracy isn’t just the tyranny of the latest bunch elected. There are checks and balances in all the successful democracies. Curtailing press freedom and politicising judiciary not commensurate with this yet what Orban been doing.
Defending democracy by lawfare against the enactments of a democratically elected government?!? Weird.
It would argue it’s defending it. An important distinction.
I think that the objections many people have are based on the view that we are not seeing ‘teaching’ being done, so much as indoctrination of an ideology which is not based upon objective reality, and which is not accepted by the majority of people.
Sorry, adult sexuality has no place in a classroom. Any educator teaching LGBQT-lifestyle classes to primary-school children is overstepping their bounds. Children that age have zero sexual identity nor any real concept of sex and adult relationships. At that age they are also highly susceptible to suggestion. I say this as someone who has taught primary-school children.
If people want to engage in homosexuality that’s up to them, but they need to leave children out of it. By validating families with same-sex parents we encourage a culture of surrogacy which further reduces children to mere commodities and lifestyle accessories.
In homosexual families the needs of the parents often supersede that of the child. If same-sex marriage was natural and wholesome why do homosexual couples crave the accoutrements of heterosexuality e.g. marriage and children?
Contrary to what the gay lobby claims children raised by same-sex parents “deeply feel the loss of a father or mother, no matter how much we love our gay parents.”These children know they are “powerless to stop the decision to deprive them of a father or mother,” he adds. And this decision comes with serious and often permanent consequences. For instance, they “feel disconnected from the gender cues of people around them,” and long for a role model of the opposite sex.While they love the people who raised them, they experience anger at their decision to deprive them of one or both biological parents—and “shame or guilt for resenting their loving parents.”The so-called “consensus” by psychologists and pediatricians on the soundness of same-sex parenting is “frankly bogus.” The truth is, there is no data to support that assertion.Instead, as political scientists Leon Kass of the University of Chicago and Harvey Mansfield of Harvard University note, “Claims that science provides support for constitutionalizing a right to same-sex marriage must rest necessarily on ideology”—and “ideology is not science.”https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065/
I’m beginning to regret that people might think you are me. Can you maybe give yourself a Christian name?
“Protecting and promoting human rights and democracy is one of the founding values of the European Union (article 21 of the EU treaty)”
But the EU is undermining Hungary’s democracy.
Protecting and promoting human rights and democracy is one of the founding values of the European Union (article 21 of the EU treaty). If Orban doesn’t agree with that then he can suggest Hungary leaves, but of course he doesn’t want to do that. He knows that’s not in his Country’s interest or he’d promulgate a Hungxit.
As regards the issue on which he doesn’t wish to comply – even the UK post Brexit has no problem with this. Preparing children for life is making sure that they understand the world they are growing up in. It is a world that is different from 20-30 years ago thank goodness. In Brexit Britain we’ve still been clear that children should leave school having learnt about LGBT relationships. The sky hasn’t fallen in. The idea that suddenly kids will all become something they are not is cobblers and not based on any evidence.
Children will find out about all sorts of things, including the diversity of our society, anyway – the question is where and how is it best to do so – in class, on the internet, or in the playground? You either encourage schools to discuss with children in class that there are all sorts of different, strong and loving families, including families with same-sex parents, while they are at primary school or you stick yours and their head in the sand. There is no reason why teaching children about the society that we live in and the different types of loving, healthy relationships that exist cannot be done in a way that respects everyone with the emphasis on the latter.