In the early hours of January 2, the fully robed body of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was transferred from the little monastery in the Vatican where he had died on the last day of 2022 to St Peter’s Basilica. There is a photograph of his remains being lifted into a vehicle. It’s shocking, but not because it shows a dead ex-pope. It’s true that today’s megapixel cameras conveyed the waxwork sheen of the corpse in unnerving detail, but that was more obvious when Benedict was lying in St Peter’s (and, anyway, we British are squeamish because we don’t open the casket for mourners).
No: the shocking thing about that photo is that Benedict XVI, the greatest Catholic theologian of the 20th century as well as a revered pontiff, is being loaded into a white van. OK, so it’s an undertaker’s vehicle, and everyone is behaving with due reverence, but what was the Vatican thinking? The optics are terrible: Benedict looks like a piece of furniture. It’s hard to escape the suspicion that Pope Francis’s staff didn’t think Benedict merited a ceremonial hearse. At the Requiem Mass, Francis preached a homily in which he mentioned his predecessor’s name only once, and couldn’t be bothered to attend the interment in the crypt. Even the Vatican correspondent Robert Mickens, a veteran critic of Benedict’s, wrote that the Pope Emeritus “deserved better”. Cardinals from around the world were horrified.
Now Francis is paying the price. No sooner was Benedict in his grave than we felt the first tremors of an earthquake that threatens to bury his successor alive. The Catholic civil war has entered a new phase. The Pope has been accused by his enemies of favouring heretics, foul-mouthed outbursts of temper, sucking up to dictators, sadistic manoeuvres against traditionalists, perverting the course of justice, a feeble grasp of Catholic doctrine and — not for the first time — of protecting a sex abuser. Catholic conservatives had been worried for years that when the ancient ex-pope finally died, Francis would be free to pursue his own agenda. For nearly 10 years he stopped short of formally changing Catholic teaching on divorce and homosexuality, restricting himself to giving a nudge and a wink to hardline liberals while missing no opportunity to give traditionalists a kicking.
In a development that would have been unthinkable 30 years ago, Latin Mass parishes and communities are attracting disproportionate numbers of young priests and worshippers. Some of them cultivate a fogyish, holier-than-thou manner that gets up the nose of ordinary Catholics — but most of them are breathing new life into a moribund Church. Pope Francis loathes them. In 2020, with no warning, he banned many of their Latin Masses, and according to multiple sources, at a meeting with seminarians in December he ranted against “fucking careerists who fuck up the lives of others”. In his defence, perhaps the words were less vulgar in Spanish. Then again, it’s no secret in the Curia that the air turns blue when the Vicar of Christ is displeased.
With his scholarly predecessor finally dead, the thinking went, the Argentinian Pope could really let rip. And so his conservative critics decided to get their revenge in first. Benedict’s private secretary Archbishop Georg Gänswein landed a blow within hours of his boss’s death. The ex-pope, he said, was “heartbroken” by Francis’s Latin Mass ban, and no wonder: it was Benedict who reintroduced the old liturgies in his 2007 apostolic letter Summorum Pontificum. On January 12, Gänswein rushed out a book, Nothing But the Truth, which claimed that Benedict thought Francis had misrepresented his reasons for issuing the document. It also hinted that he felt his successor was adopting a dangerously careless approach to Catholic teaching on sexuality.
In the same week came more bombshells. To the anguish of the Church’s conservative wing, Cardinal George Pell, former head of Vatican finances, died suddenly after a routine operation on January 10. A few hours later, The Spectator published an article by Pell that tore mercilessly into Pope Francis’s pet project, a forthcoming “Synod on Synodality” whose agenda has been dictated by liberal Catholics who support women’s ordination and are obsessed with placating the LGBT+ lobby. Pell said the synod was shaping up to be a “toxic nightmare” and poured scorn on the working document’s “neo-Marxist jargon”.
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Subscribe“Is the Pope Catholic?” so often asked to as a response to an obvious statement, but with the current pope we can’t be so sure. I’m under the impression that this one is more concerned about appearing ‘cool’ than being Cathlolic.
I agree. I was raised Catholic and completely rebelled against the church. I continue to be non-practicing and critical of the Church. However I have always respected how the Church is unswayed by fashionable ideas- unlike most other mainstream Christian churches. Francis clearly wants to be loved and admired more than he cares about the church. When he talks about climate change and other woke matters he sounds like a virtue signalling dimwit.
My Catholic coworker has the exact same sentiments and had deep respect for Benedict XVI.
Agreed. We benefit from the Catholic Church being stuck in ideas from 2000 years and being unwilling to accept to modern norms. After all, it’s easy for us to take it or leave.
Even if I agree with most liberal ideas, there need to be people holding out against them, making us consider.
Easy if you do not think of yourself as a created being, with an immortal purpose.
Easy if you do not think of yourself as a created being, with an immortal purpose.
Not a Catholic.
But isn’t this the way all things are going today? Bear with me in my analysis.
If the Catholic Church is seen as a huge, international organisation with millions of members, the great majority are believers in the words of the gospels and the ceremonies and the awe and the holiness. A very, very, small minority is concerned with global warming or gay rights.
So, the pope who represents this church, is chasing interests which are not concerning the huge majority of members. It doesn’t sound corrupt; it sounds inept. Isn’t it possible to get a new General Manager?
Popes get voted for when one dies, or, possibly, retires. Only cardinals vote, and the popes make cardinals. Pope Francis has appointed the majority of the cardinals eligible to vote, at his death or retirement.
I disagree: lots of faithful Catholics are concerned about the environment (e.g., global warming) and human rights (e.g., gay rights).
Yes treating them with respect; not fawning or making them special. Don’t want to abide by the Catholic Church’s teachings – then leave, as I did. We will rue the day when “The Church” is just another one of the loony christian sects that have spawned over the years. All preaching whatever crap they wish too, to gather adherents. Most are just money pots or havens for the disaffected.
The RC church is just the original loony religious Christian sect. It is no different in any other regard than later Christian sects whether fundamentalists/literalists or barely believing Anglican groups.
The RC church is just the original loony religious Christian sect. It is no different in any other regard than later Christian sects whether fundamentalists/literalists or barely believing Anglican groups.
Yes treating them with respect; not fawning or making them special. Don’t want to abide by the Catholic Church’s teachings – then leave, as I did. We will rue the day when “The Church” is just another one of the loony christian sects that have spawned over the years. All preaching whatever crap they wish too, to gather adherents. Most are just money pots or havens for the disaffected.
Popes get voted for when one dies, or, possibly, retires. Only cardinals vote, and the popes make cardinals. Pope Francis has appointed the majority of the cardinals eligible to vote, at his death or retirement.
I disagree: lots of faithful Catholics are concerned about the environment (e.g., global warming) and human rights (e.g., gay rights).
I’m not sure why the Pope’s being concerned about climate change is somehow un-Catholic. The Christian belief is that God created the earth and all that is in it and gave it to Man to be his home and to nourish him. If the Pope believs that Man is c*cking-up every thing than it would seem to me that he is right to be concerned.
Climate change is the most important issue in the world for hundreds of NGOs and all western governments. It is in kind of good hands, then?
Although, yes, the EU wants the Catholic Church to lead. (Possibly it is in the By bul about one world religion? And that not being a good thing?)
If you listen about climate change every time you listen to the radio, and in every other way, there is no need to hear it again on Sunday. Time then, to concern ourselves with the sacred, to talk to and to worship G (I think this post will be flagged if I spell that out!), to think of our death and the last things.
The modern church does not concern itself with Catholic themes, but takes on the themes of the world and all its NGOs.
Seek G first…and this offers an amazing relationship and perspective. Very nourishing. It could possibly fill those people up who fight for climate change in their jobs or at weekly school protests.
Climate change is manifestly not the most important concern in the world except for those naieve and gullible enough to have been duped, conned and misled by manipulated ” science” that 99 pc of people have no ability whatsoever to interperate, but to be fair, like LBGT and racism obsession it is a religion substitute for many who have nothing else.. I am a member of the flat earth society, and am soon meeting Elvis on Mars, … I do hope that this makes you feel better.
Of course climate has changed throughout time. And sorry you didn’t get the slight derision in the remark that it was such a concern to the West.
I am surprised you feel that your attachment to Elvis and Mars would move anyone. It is a bit mental, whether or not said for “shock” value. Cheers.
Of course climate has changed throughout time. And sorry you didn’t get the slight derision in the remark that it was such a concern to the West.
I am surprised you feel that your attachment to Elvis and Mars would move anyone. It is a bit mental, whether or not said for “shock” value. Cheers.
When did the climate not change? How has climate, temperature, carbon dioxide and moisture content of atmosphere changed since early Cretaceous, approximately 130m years ago?
Thank you for pointing that out. The climate has been studied, in detail and recorded, for no more than a hundred years – not a very representative sampling is it?
Hm. I am being misunderstood here, *fake cry. ;- ). I have been on top of mountains and looked at fossils from sea life. Of course the climate has changed, with mountains where there were once seas!
Thank you for pointing that out. The climate has been studied, in detail and recorded, for no more than a hundred years – not a very representative sampling is it?
Hm. I am being misunderstood here, *fake cry. ;- ). I have been on top of mountains and looked at fossils from sea life. Of course the climate has changed, with mountains where there were once seas!
A religious leader though would presumably talk about spritual aspects of something like climate change. The Patriarch of Constantinople has also written quite a lot of spiritual reflection on the kinds of excesses that lead to abuse of nature, and I’d hardly call him woke.
Spiritual aspects of climate change?
Spiritual aspects of climate change?
Climate change is manifestly not the most important concern in the world except for those naieve and gullible enough to have been duped, conned and misled by manipulated ” science” that 99 pc of people have no ability whatsoever to interperate, but to be fair, like LBGT and racism obsession it is a religion substitute for many who have nothing else.. I am a member of the flat earth society, and am soon meeting Elvis on Mars, … I do hope that this makes you feel better.
When did the climate not change? How has climate, temperature, carbon dioxide and moisture content of atmosphere changed since early Cretaceous, approximately 130m years ago?
A religious leader though would presumably talk about spritual aspects of something like climate change. The Patriarch of Constantinople has also written quite a lot of spiritual reflection on the kinds of excesses that lead to abuse of nature, and I’d hardly call him woke.
I think a pope should stay out of scientific controversies. (Remember what the Church did to the “controversial” scientist Galileo) Man Made ClimateChange is still debated, even if the majority of politicians, activists and MSM, including the BBC, won’t let scientists, who find big holes in the man made “Climate Crisis” theory (the word a Guardian hack invented), discuss the matter anymore. Recent history showed us, what happened to epidemiologists and biologists, who contradicted mainstream thinking during the Covid epidemic. They were shadow banned from social media, governments ignored and marginalised them as they didn’t seem to fit in with the scary propaganda to frighten the public into obedience.
It seems that Francis wants to be part of the current left wing/green agenda, picking up also other fashionable causes, so he can prove himself cool, dare I say woke. Not the way I want my Pope to behave (I am Catholic).
The history of the Jesuits is that of a battle between two things: the majority who want a religion and a faith and the minority which wants to manage the countries of the world. The Jesuits tried to control France at the beginning of the last century and this led to a separation of church and state.
In Italy the Vatican has a TV channel and has candidates in government elections. If the current pope wants to control global warning in some way, he should be elected by somebody to have that right. As Paula says, he is elected by a handful of cardinals he has selected. So he most definitely does not have any right to speak for others.
No problem with the Pope or any leader being concerned about the despoiling of earth – if the despoiling is validated by evidence: di-oxins, polyphenols + heavy metals in the water table, species loss and over extraction of ground water. The damage these cause is unpredictable but can be shown once it happens. Warmism is faith not evidence based and distracts from genuine environmental issues. Anyone concerned about the environment gets stuck with the warmists image. Juvenile, privelaged soap dodging student hypocrites
Who leave a mountain of plastic bottles and other uncompostable detritus after every ‘protest/party’
Who leave a mountain of plastic bottles and other uncompostable detritus after every ‘protest/party’
Climate change is the most important issue in the world for hundreds of NGOs and all western governments. It is in kind of good hands, then?
Although, yes, the EU wants the Catholic Church to lead. (Possibly it is in the By bul about one world religion? And that not being a good thing?)
If you listen about climate change every time you listen to the radio, and in every other way, there is no need to hear it again on Sunday. Time then, to concern ourselves with the sacred, to talk to and to worship G (I think this post will be flagged if I spell that out!), to think of our death and the last things.
The modern church does not concern itself with Catholic themes, but takes on the themes of the world and all its NGOs.
Seek G first…and this offers an amazing relationship and perspective. Very nourishing. It could possibly fill those people up who fight for climate change in their jobs or at weekly school protests.
I think a pope should stay out of scientific controversies. (Remember what the Church did to the “controversial” scientist Galileo) Man Made ClimateChange is still debated, even if the majority of politicians, activists and MSM, including the BBC, won’t let scientists, who find big holes in the man made “Climate Crisis” theory (the word a Guardian hack invented), discuss the matter anymore. Recent history showed us, what happened to epidemiologists and biologists, who contradicted mainstream thinking during the Covid epidemic. They were shadow banned from social media, governments ignored and marginalised them as they didn’t seem to fit in with the scary propaganda to frighten the public into obedience.
It seems that Francis wants to be part of the current left wing/green agenda, picking up also other fashionable causes, so he can prove himself cool, dare I say woke. Not the way I want my Pope to behave (I am Catholic).
The history of the Jesuits is that of a battle between two things: the majority who want a religion and a faith and the minority which wants to manage the countries of the world. The Jesuits tried to control France at the beginning of the last century and this led to a separation of church and state.
In Italy the Vatican has a TV channel and has candidates in government elections. If the current pope wants to control global warning in some way, he should be elected by somebody to have that right. As Paula says, he is elected by a handful of cardinals he has selected. So he most definitely does not have any right to speak for others.
No problem with the Pope or any leader being concerned about the despoiling of earth – if the despoiling is validated by evidence: di-oxins, polyphenols + heavy metals in the water table, species loss and over extraction of ground water. The damage these cause is unpredictable but can be shown once it happens. Warmism is faith not evidence based and distracts from genuine environmental issues. Anyone concerned about the environment gets stuck with the warmists image. Juvenile, privelaged soap dodging student hypocrites
Francis the “Pound Shop Pope”
The “I have principles and if you don’t like them I have others” Pope.
That one
My Catholic coworker has the exact same sentiments and had deep respect for Benedict XVI.
Agreed. We benefit from the Catholic Church being stuck in ideas from 2000 years and being unwilling to accept to modern norms. After all, it’s easy for us to take it or leave.
Even if I agree with most liberal ideas, there need to be people holding out against them, making us consider.
Not a Catholic.
But isn’t this the way all things are going today? Bear with me in my analysis.
If the Catholic Church is seen as a huge, international organisation with millions of members, the great majority are believers in the words of the gospels and the ceremonies and the awe and the holiness. A very, very, small minority is concerned with global warming or gay rights.
So, the pope who represents this church, is chasing interests which are not concerning the huge majority of members. It doesn’t sound corrupt; it sounds inept. Isn’t it possible to get a new General Manager?
I’m not sure why the Pope’s being concerned about climate change is somehow un-Catholic. The Christian belief is that God created the earth and all that is in it and gave it to Man to be his home and to nourish him. If the Pope believs that Man is c*cking-up every thing than it would seem to me that he is right to be concerned.
Francis the “Pound Shop Pope”
The “I have principles and if you don’t like them I have others” Pope.
That one
A better question would be, “Is the Church of Rome Christian?” And articles such as this highlight its serious failings in that area.
Of course they’re Christian – the holy subjects of their $15 billion art collection is testament to this.
Of course they’re Christian – the holy subjects of their $15 billion art collection is testament to this.
I agree. I was raised Catholic and completely rebelled against the church. I continue to be non-practicing and critical of the Church. However I have always respected how the Church is unswayed by fashionable ideas- unlike most other mainstream Christian churches. Francis clearly wants to be loved and admired more than he cares about the church. When he talks about climate change and other woke matters he sounds like a virtue signalling dimwit.
A better question would be, “Is the Church of Rome Christian?” And articles such as this highlight its serious failings in that area.
“Is the Pope Catholic?” so often asked to as a response to an obvious statement, but with the current pope we can’t be so sure. I’m under the impression that this one is more concerned about appearing ‘cool’ than being Cathlolic.
Perhaps this is yet another example of how the leadership of a religion, charity, business or political party can be taken over by careerists and then the original purpose of the organisation is subordinated to protecting those careers?
Very perceptive.
I am actually curious as to why Pope Francis would have been angry at careerist clerics? My RCIA deacon in Germany told me that he needed to find a career and remembered “his grandmother’s” religion. He has a great voice, and likes to sing. He is also excited about married deacons being made priests. Great. He openly told us that he considered the faith “something we don’t believe in anymore.” I will spare spilling more horrors.
It certainly has happened in the Church before – think of the original meaning of “nepotism” and the “cardinal-nephews”. The Church goes through these periods and then takes stock and pulls its socks up again.
It’s time for a sock-pulling, I think.
Very perceptive.
I am actually curious as to why Pope Francis would have been angry at careerist clerics? My RCIA deacon in Germany told me that he needed to find a career and remembered “his grandmother’s” religion. He has a great voice, and likes to sing. He is also excited about married deacons being made priests. Great. He openly told us that he considered the faith “something we don’t believe in anymore.” I will spare spilling more horrors.
It certainly has happened in the Church before – think of the original meaning of “nepotism” and the “cardinal-nephews”. The Church goes through these periods and then takes stock and pulls its socks up again.
It’s time for a sock-pulling, I think.
Perhaps this is yet another example of how the leadership of a religion, charity, business or political party can be taken over by careerists and then the original purpose of the organisation is subordinated to protecting those careers?
Quite a depressing read. If the Catholic Church can’t pick a half decent pope what hope does it have? Might seem a small thing but I think the swearing is a really good indicator of his character.
Quite a depressing read. If the Catholic Church can’t pick a half decent pope what hope does it have? Might seem a small thing but I think the swearing is a really good indicator of his character.
As a non-Catholic I thought this was a great article – I read it twice.
It made me think of similar actions in our political parties. We have old politicians having ‘ideas’ to appeal to the young. Our politicians might think one thing and get elected on that ticket, but when in power start to make plans of appeasement. Nowadays, there are so many minorities to appease that each statement or action leads to a counter action and then a loss of direction. A holy mess, in fact.
This is the same with most institutions that the people who rise to the top, benefiting from the hard work and sacrifice of their predecessors, then hack away at the tree beneath them.
This is the same with most institutions that the people who rise to the top, benefiting from the hard work and sacrifice of their predecessors, then hack away at the tree beneath them.
As a non-Catholic I thought this was a great article – I read it twice.
It made me think of similar actions in our political parties. We have old politicians having ‘ideas’ to appeal to the young. Our politicians might think one thing and get elected on that ticket, but when in power start to make plans of appeasement. Nowadays, there are so many minorities to appease that each statement or action leads to a counter action and then a loss of direction. A holy mess, in fact.
A political liberal showing all sweetness and light who is harsh, inconsistent, and dictatorial in private. Wow, that’s never happened before.
A political liberal showing all sweetness and light who is harsh, inconsistent, and dictatorial in private. Wow, that’s never happened before.
I am only half way through the article, but Thompson never disappoints. His hatred for Frances emerges from the screen with force and really hits you. It is reminiscent of the bloody lifts in the Shining.
I don’t know whether he is justified or not, but his articles are always entertaining.
Anyway, the Pillar is not too fond of Francis either, although not nearly as vitriolic, so for a change it would be good to read from someone who actually likes him… There must be someone among the Catholic commentators.
One last thing:
” Jose Mario Bergoglio”
His name is Jorge. Getting this detail right is rather important if you want to make some kind of point.
Austen Ivereigh
Aren’t we missing a point here?
Damien is drawing attention to serious divisions in The CC. He loves The Church. It’s always in some crises, it has survived crises before, but when the fight is so blatent and division so wide it’s a problem for the whole world.
The tradegy is that it’s not at peace and that’s something the whole world needs lots of.
One last thing:
” Jose Mario Bergoglio”
His name is Jorge. Getting this detail right is rather important if you want to make some kind of point.
Austen Ivereigh
Aren’t we missing a point here?
Damien is drawing attention to serious divisions in The CC. He loves The Church. It’s always in some crises, it has survived crises before, but when the fight is so blatent and division so wide it’s a problem for the whole world.
The tradegy is that it’s not at peace and that’s something the whole world needs lots of.
I am only half way through the article, but Thompson never disappoints. His hatred for Frances emerges from the screen with force and really hits you. It is reminiscent of the bloody lifts in the Shining.
I don’t know whether he is justified or not, but his articles are always entertaining.
Anyway, the Pillar is not too fond of Francis either, although not nearly as vitriolic, so for a change it would be good to read from someone who actually likes him… There must be someone among the Catholic commentators.
A classic example of the dangers of quotas. “It’s about time we had a Pope from Latin America”.
He was arch bishop in Argentina but he is Italian
Incorrect, he is Argentinian, having been born in Buenos Aires. His father was an Italian migrant, but Francis only has Argentinian (and Vatican) citizenship.
Incorrect, he is Argentinian, having been born in Buenos Aires. His father was an Italian migrant, but Francis only has Argentinian (and Vatican) citizenship.
He was arch bishop in Argentina but he is Italian
A classic example of the dangers of quotas. “It’s about time we had a Pope from Latin America”.
Just another example of how mankind’s noblest instincts, the belief in something greater than itself, gets corrupted & usurped once it becomes an institution. Heartbreaking.
Just another example of how mankind’s noblest instincts, the belief in something greater than itself, gets corrupted & usurped once it becomes an institution. Heartbreaking.
This is why so many people think that the church is irrelevant: squabbling over what language is used for Mass, clutching pearls over whether priests are married or not and worrying about bankruptcy. Everything seems to be so inward-facing and more concerned with preserving the corporation than preaching the Gospel or helping the poor and oppressed.
…and the hypocrisy, entitlement, and delusions of grandeur – oh boy!
How you prey is how you believe. And how you believe affects how you orient your whole life. (Trying not to trigger censoring.)
Further, it is beyond language (ideas have different shades of meaning in different languages, and using a holy language lifts one’s own attitude and is reverent to G.) It is also about what prey ers are actually recited and their interconnected meaning.
It also matters whether or not priests are married. Not to the wanna be Protestants amongst the clergy, but to those who understand the aims and values of tradition and their significance to G. (I am using an initial so as not to trigger censors.)
How you “prey”. Freudian slip?
Nope. Deliberate to avoid the algorithm that seeks to avoid the scary words.
This is just a test to see if “pray” is a scary word.
;- ) Hallelujah!
😉
😉
;- ) Hallelujah!
This is just a test to see if “pray” is a scary word.
Nope. Deliberate to avoid the algorithm that seeks to avoid the scary words.
Has UnHerd really banned the use of the name of God?
Nice! I have triggered an algorithm before, using religious terms. I didn’t want to risk a post, since, even if corrected, the algorithm has been triggered, and the post won’t appear. Here. At Unherd.
Nice! I have triggered an algorithm before, using religious terms. I didn’t want to risk a post, since, even if corrected, the algorithm has been triggered, and the post won’t appear. Here. At Unherd.
— posted elsewhere
How you “prey”. Freudian slip?
Has UnHerd really banned the use of the name of God?
— posted elsewhere
I should emphasize that I say that more in sorrow than in anger. And while the Catholic Church has specific issues, as an Episcopalian I recognize that Protestantism is not free from problems. We all need to do better.
There is considerably more to it than “squabbling” or “clutching” in such issues, irrelevant though they may seem to a non-believer.
…and the hypocrisy, entitlement, and delusions of grandeur – oh boy!
How you prey is how you believe. And how you believe affects how you orient your whole life. (Trying not to trigger censoring.)
Further, it is beyond language (ideas have different shades of meaning in different languages, and using a holy language lifts one’s own attitude and is reverent to G.) It is also about what prey ers are actually recited and their interconnected meaning.
It also matters whether or not priests are married. Not to the wanna be Protestants amongst the clergy, but to those who understand the aims and values of tradition and their significance to G. (I am using an initial so as not to trigger censors.)
I should emphasize that I say that more in sorrow than in anger. And while the Catholic Church has specific issues, as an Episcopalian I recognize that Protestantism is not free from problems. We all need to do better.
There is considerably more to it than “squabbling” or “clutching” in such issues, irrelevant though they may seem to a non-believer.
This is why so many people think that the church is irrelevant: squabbling over what language is used for Mass, clutching pearls over whether priests are married or not and worrying about bankruptcy. Everything seems to be so inward-facing and more concerned with preserving the corporation than preaching the Gospel or helping the poor and oppressed.
This post doesn’t make it clear to this non-Catholic reader that there is a war or what it is about other than a few personal squabbles or disparate skirmishes. For instance, what is the last sentence meant to mean? This is of concern given humankind is at war with itself and if this is a symptom of that war, its battle lines or its shape. Admittedly this reader hasn’t followed any of the links, but that shouldn’t be a reader’s task, unless this one’s mistaken.
I’d contest that humankind isn’t so much at war with itself, as just starting to come to terms with our humanity, following on from the realisation of our ability to destroy ourselves. We can either retreat back into the comfort blanket offered by organised religion and/or authoritarianism, or accept responsibility for ourselves, with better understanding of the flaws in our humanity. A difficult task on an individual level, let alone as a species. But it’s one or the other.
The culture wars are the playing out of this process on a conscious, global scale, through the advances in communication technology. That it should affect the Catholic Church is hardly surprising. As probably the prime example of the comfort blanket, it cannot stand aside and pretend nothing is happening. It’s been happening since Copernicus.
Hi Steve, I’m less sanguine than you seem to be given the systematic dismantling of the very foundation upon which critiques are premised: biological, social, ethical, moral, political, scientific and – dare I say it – religious (‘obligation, bond, reverence [ … ] to bind’ | OED).
I strongly suspect you’ve got the wrong end of the stick (as others may have). The Catholic Church was equally aghast when Galileo, following on from Copernicus, challenged their “very foundations”. It’s not the challenge that’s at fault – it’s the failure to rise to it by taking responsibility for ourselves instead of outsourcing it. That’s got nothing whatsoever to do with what you describe.
Steve, how do you get from Galileo and Copernicus to ‘taking responsibility for (your)self’? How do you take responsibility for yourself if the very concept ‘self’ is increasingly in question apart from whim?
Self can be rightly ordered. Yes, with work and intention and humility. You are right, do not give in to whim, but to Truth. I am the Truth, the Way and the Light., said someone. ;- )
*and the Life! Doh!
Oh, and forgot to say “with grace.” Yet, ask, and you will receive. Ha. I am such a mess from all the silly beliefs I have swam in over a lifetime, but even in me, the grace has been profound.
*and the Life! Doh!
Oh, and forgot to say “with grace.” Yet, ask, and you will receive. Ha. I am such a mess from all the silly beliefs I have swam in over a lifetime, but even in me, the grace has been profound.
Self can be rightly ordered. Yes, with work and intention and humility. You are right, do not give in to whim, but to Truth. I am the Truth, the Way and the Light., said someone. ;- )
Steve, how do you get from Galileo and Copernicus to ‘taking responsibility for (your)self’? How do you take responsibility for yourself if the very concept ‘self’ is increasingly in question apart from whim?
I strongly suspect you’ve got the wrong end of the stick (as others may have). The Catholic Church was equally aghast when Galileo, following on from Copernicus, challenged their “very foundations”. It’s not the challenge that’s at fault – it’s the failure to rise to it by taking responsibility for ourselves instead of outsourcing it. That’s got nothing whatsoever to do with what you describe.
Up to a point. Organised religion is far less comforting that progressive meterialism. Isn’t the comfort blanket the idea that we can do what we like without any consequences? Been like that for some time.
But as many who pursue progressive materialism are finding, there’s very little comfort to be had after the initial instant hit. And that’s my point. It was perhaps assumed in the first reply that i was advocating on behalf of the progressive stance – far from it. Neither organised religion or outright materialism will succeed in taking us forward.
I’m advocating taking responsibility for our own souls, which by the nature of a mature society should include caring for others. We’ve not yet reached that stage, but i’d maintain that outsourcing the responsibility to an external diety for answers leads to the current floundering when that diety simply doesn’t exist – except in the hopes and imaginations of human beings. So why not cut out the diety and start to rely on that very source of inspiration.
That’s a complex psychological turnaround in a nutshell, and obviously there’s a lot more that could be added. I’d simply add that the current floundering could be seen as a way of working through some of the issues we’re presented with as humans in coming to terms with our humanity. It may take some time, but still, a necessary process to rid ourselves of religious illusions.
Funny that the pro Vatican lot here think they are the non materialists (hint the Vatican has £10,000,000,000….in art). They also seem to quite like gold & silks, grandeur, eating well, servants (nuns). As, as for personal responsibility, they basically sell get out of jail cards. You couldn’t make it up.
I have never bought a get out of jail card, and I call myself Catholic. There are wolves in sheeps’ clothing in the midst of the flock, and that is straight from The Book.
It is also something wonderful, to discern. We are given free will and intelligence, and with grace, we allow ourselves to seek good.
Go easy on the stereotypes. Don’t let an imperfect institution keep you from the true, the beautiful and the good. We are in a fallen world. The grace you give is the grace you will receive. Forgive US our trespasses AS WE forgive OTHERS. Yep, we reap what we sow. It is down to EACH of us to achieve our salvation (and as a bonus, let go of our resentments and have better relationships here on Earth.) ;- )
“I have never bought a get out of jail card”
You’ve never been to confession, and given back to the Church, financially?
Confession costs nothing. I don’t actually give to the Church, except for earmarked causes, like mending a roof, or paying for a candle that I have used.
I am wary of how the institutional Church spends its money. I support the religious in monasteries, homeless on the way to church, etc., instead.
Fair enough – at a personal level. Confession does cost though, it’s just that the costs are not wholly visible, and not charged for at the point of delivery. Just like the NHS. But it is all paid for by those that receive the service. The NHS has never been in a position to afford the best art and achitecture, silks and gold – though it has wasted eye-watering sums on dodgy IT projects and consultants!
Fair enough – at a personal level. Confession does cost though, it’s just that the costs are not wholly visible, and not charged for at the point of delivery. Just like the NHS. But it is all paid for by those that receive the service. The NHS has never been in a position to afford the best art and achitecture, silks and gold – though it has wasted eye-watering sums on dodgy IT projects and consultants!
Confession costs nothing. I don’t actually give to the Church, except for earmarked causes, like mending a roof, or paying for a candle that I have used.
I am wary of how the institutional Church spends its money. I support the religious in monasteries, homeless on the way to church, etc., instead.
“I have never bought a get out of jail card”
You’ve never been to confession, and given back to the Church, financially?
I have never bought a get out of jail card, and I call myself Catholic. There are wolves in sheeps’ clothing in the midst of the flock, and that is straight from The Book.
It is also something wonderful, to discern. We are given free will and intelligence, and with grace, we allow ourselves to seek good.
Go easy on the stereotypes. Don’t let an imperfect institution keep you from the true, the beautiful and the good. We are in a fallen world. The grace you give is the grace you will receive. Forgive US our trespasses AS WE forgive OTHERS. Yep, we reap what we sow. It is down to EACH of us to achieve our salvation (and as a bonus, let go of our resentments and have better relationships here on Earth.) ;- )
Because we are created. (I studied evolution for four years in college, and it never filled in the gaps.). Because we become better human beings if we know we are loved, and we are. Humans are so small, and yet we can be forgiven and given grace to change our ways and have happiness even when there is darkness and suffering. And because we appreciate how humble we are, we reach out to our fellows. We love G by serving others. Faith and love makes us help our fellows. (It takes time to grow your heart, with lots of prey er and study, and finally filled with grace, when it comes, a gift!)
Funny that the pro Vatican lot here think they are the non materialists (hint the Vatican has £10,000,000,000….in art). They also seem to quite like gold & silks, grandeur, eating well, servants (nuns). As, as for personal responsibility, they basically sell get out of jail cards. You couldn’t make it up.
Because we are created. (I studied evolution for four years in college, and it never filled in the gaps.). Because we become better human beings if we know we are loved, and we are. Humans are so small, and yet we can be forgiven and given grace to change our ways and have happiness even when there is darkness and suffering. And because we appreciate how humble we are, we reach out to our fellows. We love G by serving others. Faith and love makes us help our fellows. (It takes time to grow your heart, with lots of prey er and study, and finally filled with grace, when it comes, a gift!)
“Isn’t the comfort blanket the idea that we can do what we like without any consequences?”
Absolutely not. Only ignorami believe that – actually who does believe that? I’m fairly widely read, and I don’t think I’ve heard that sentiment expressed, or rather asserted. Anyhow, if such people do exist, we shouldn’t pay them any mind, whether they are religious or not.
But as many who pursue progressive materialism are finding, there’s very little comfort to be had after the initial instant hit. And that’s my point. It was perhaps assumed in the first reply that i was advocating on behalf of the progressive stance – far from it. Neither organised religion or outright materialism will succeed in taking us forward.
I’m advocating taking responsibility for our own souls, which by the nature of a mature society should include caring for others. We’ve not yet reached that stage, but i’d maintain that outsourcing the responsibility to an external diety for answers leads to the current floundering when that diety simply doesn’t exist – except in the hopes and imaginations of human beings. So why not cut out the diety and start to rely on that very source of inspiration.
That’s a complex psychological turnaround in a nutshell, and obviously there’s a lot more that could be added. I’d simply add that the current floundering could be seen as a way of working through some of the issues we’re presented with as humans in coming to terms with our humanity. It may take some time, but still, a necessary process to rid ourselves of religious illusions.
“Isn’t the comfort blanket the idea that we can do what we like without any consequences?”
Absolutely not. Only ignorami believe that – actually who does believe that? I’m fairly widely read, and I don’t think I’ve heard that sentiment expressed, or rather asserted. Anyhow, if such people do exist, we shouldn’t pay them any mind, whether they are religious or not.
Hi Steve, I’m less sanguine than you seem to be given the systematic dismantling of the very foundation upon which critiques are premised: biological, social, ethical, moral, political, scientific and – dare I say it – religious (‘obligation, bond, reverence [ … ] to bind’ | OED).
Up to a point. Organised religion is far less comforting that progressive meterialism. Isn’t the comfort blanket the idea that we can do what we like without any consequences? Been like that for some time.
As a Catholic reader I am not clear either 😉
Let me attempt to clarify that last sentence. Higher up in the paragraph, it states that Cardinal Pell was working to ensure that the Pope who follows Francis will be an orthodox one.
With Cardinal Pell dead, Pope Francis is lucky, because Pell challenged him. There are obvious obstacles to challenging him. Even when it happens, concerns brought up by others are not often addressed. For example “The Dubia Brothers” have never had their dubia answered. Two of those men have since died. In contrast, another cleric, Father James Marin, had his dubia answered within a week,
Maybe read Cardinal Pell’s article to begin with. Follow Damian Thomason’s writings. You will eventually see the challenges and differences in perspectives. It might even help you in your pondering over the idea of mankind at war with itself, and provide some answers.
*Father James Martin
Damian Thompson.
autocorrect! And unable to edit my original post.
Thank you Paula for your kind trouble, however, my point is that if the issues come down to ‘luck’ then they’re contingent rather than potentially schismatic. But if they are the latter, which the post’s headline states they are, then I do not gain a deep sense from this report of what is at stake, and my concern is that if the church doesn’t understand and articulate unambiguously what is at stake, then humankind is without anchor, ballast or compass.
The issues do not come down to luck. The author writes that Pope Francis is lucky (again) because, once again, he is not called out.
There is deference in the Church, and deep respect for the office of the Pope, If Pope Francis, or a successor pope, cancelled the Latin Mass, there could be fewer priests who would say this Mass, not wanting to be apostate. That said, it is possible to be within Tradition, within the Church, and not follow the teaching of a particular pope, if what he is teaching goes against the deposit of the Faith.
The By bul itself talks about false teaching, even within the Church itself. Now, as for ambiguous teaching, that is often called out by many faithful, in the pronouncements of Pope Francis. One can look to tradition, as no pope should contradict the infallible doctrine promulgated by previous popes. A pope can be in error, if not speaking dogmatically. Successive councils have worked out points of doctrine, in history, and will continue to do so.
Catholics will not go into schism, if believing. If the Latin Mass is completely taken away, it may be that, from conscience, Mass is said underground. If this looks like apostasy, it has been found that others, even popes, have been pronounced that they were not in schism, in successive councils.
Good news. Man is not without anchor, ballast or compass! Even in darkness! That is the Good News! Baptism and Faith and guidance from the H.G. (aka H.S.) is ever there! Hyperpapalism is what it is called, if you believe that all a pope says infallible. Do not trust in any man. Keep preying and keep seeking and You will know more truth! (Never everything, as we are finite beings.) But it is not true thwt any believer should feel that there is no anchor, nor ballast or compass. Remember J. was in the boat with the disciples, and is present here, today, on Earth!
Find a good church. Read good books. Prey. ;- ) (Yes, trying to beat the algorithm.)
The issues do not come down to luck. The author writes that Pope Francis is lucky (again) because, once again, he is not called out.
There is deference in the Church, and deep respect for the office of the Pope, If Pope Francis, or a successor pope, cancelled the Latin Mass, there could be fewer priests who would say this Mass, not wanting to be apostate. That said, it is possible to be within Tradition, within the Church, and not follow the teaching of a particular pope, if what he is teaching goes against the deposit of the Faith.
The By bul itself talks about false teaching, even within the Church itself. Now, as for ambiguous teaching, that is often called out by many faithful, in the pronouncements of Pope Francis. One can look to tradition, as no pope should contradict the infallible doctrine promulgated by previous popes. A pope can be in error, if not speaking dogmatically. Successive councils have worked out points of doctrine, in history, and will continue to do so.
Catholics will not go into schism, if believing. If the Latin Mass is completely taken away, it may be that, from conscience, Mass is said underground. If this looks like apostasy, it has been found that others, even popes, have been pronounced that they were not in schism, in successive councils.
Good news. Man is not without anchor, ballast or compass! Even in darkness! That is the Good News! Baptism and Faith and guidance from the H.G. (aka H.S.) is ever there! Hyperpapalism is what it is called, if you believe that all a pope says infallible. Do not trust in any man. Keep preying and keep seeking and You will know more truth! (Never everything, as we are finite beings.) But it is not true thwt any believer should feel that there is no anchor, nor ballast or compass. Remember J. was in the boat with the disciples, and is present here, today, on Earth!
Find a good church. Read good books. Prey. ;- ) (Yes, trying to beat the algorithm.)
*Father James Martin
Damian Thompson.
autocorrect! And unable to edit my original post.
Thank you Paula for your kind trouble, however, my point is that if the issues come down to ‘luck’ then they’re contingent rather than potentially schismatic. But if they are the latter, which the post’s headline states they are, then I do not gain a deep sense from this report of what is at stake, and my concern is that if the church doesn’t understand and articulate unambiguously what is at stake, then humankind is without anchor, ballast or compass.
I’d contest that humankind isn’t so much at war with itself, as just starting to come to terms with our humanity, following on from the realisation of our ability to destroy ourselves. We can either retreat back into the comfort blanket offered by organised religion and/or authoritarianism, or accept responsibility for ourselves, with better understanding of the flaws in our humanity. A difficult task on an individual level, let alone as a species. But it’s one or the other.
The culture wars are the playing out of this process on a conscious, global scale, through the advances in communication technology. That it should affect the Catholic Church is hardly surprising. As probably the prime example of the comfort blanket, it cannot stand aside and pretend nothing is happening. It’s been happening since Copernicus.
As a Catholic reader I am not clear either 😉
Let me attempt to clarify that last sentence. Higher up in the paragraph, it states that Cardinal Pell was working to ensure that the Pope who follows Francis will be an orthodox one.
With Cardinal Pell dead, Pope Francis is lucky, because Pell challenged him. There are obvious obstacles to challenging him. Even when it happens, concerns brought up by others are not often addressed. For example “The Dubia Brothers” have never had their dubia answered. Two of those men have since died. In contrast, another cleric, Father James Marin, had his dubia answered within a week,
Maybe read Cardinal Pell’s article to begin with. Follow Damian Thomason’s writings. You will eventually see the challenges and differences in perspectives. It might even help you in your pondering over the idea of mankind at war with itself, and provide some answers.
This post doesn’t make it clear to this non-Catholic reader that there is a war or what it is about other than a few personal squabbles or disparate skirmishes. For instance, what is the last sentence meant to mean? This is of concern given humankind is at war with itself and if this is a symptom of that war, its battle lines or its shape. Admittedly this reader hasn’t followed any of the links, but that shouldn’t be a reader’s task, unless this one’s mistaken.
We Orthodox Christians quite liked Benedict XVI. Probably the best Pope of Rome since the Latins set up on their own in the 11th century, at least from our point of view.
When I left the ongoing wreck of Anglicanism for the Holy Orthodox Church in 1994, I looked briefly at the Latin church and concluded it was running on the same track, just 30 years behind. I guess the next two years of Francis’s pontificate will show whether that estimate was spot on, or whether Benedict slowed the “progress”.
We Orthodox Christians quite liked Benedict XVI. Probably the best Pope of Rome since the Latins set up on their own in the 11th century, at least from our point of view.
When I left the ongoing wreck of Anglicanism for the Holy Orthodox Church in 1994, I looked briefly at the Latin church and concluded it was running on the same track, just 30 years behind. I guess the next two years of Francis’s pontificate will show whether that estimate was spot on, or whether Benedict slowed the “progress”.
They have all covered up sexual abuse by priests and perverted the course of justice. Benedict was as guilty as Francis. A truly rotten organisation. But the author does recognise it: “Western Europe’s most corrupt independent state”.
If anyone disagrees with the truth of my statements, please be kind enough to state why (alongside the downvotes).
I’m afraid that this happens very often and it’s not helpful. Sometimes you will even get down-voted for daring to ask a question or just stating a statistic, if the question or figure is not liked by someone on here. The down votes are often just someone’s feelings (this comment makes me feel unsafe) they don’t come from considering what the original poster says.
Just an addition, I do disagree somewhat with you, there was certainly plenty of cover-ups, but not by all, and mostly it was from fear. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not defending what was done, but I realise that if they come out and pinpoint a rotten apple the world’s communications media would be all over them, so better keep quiet was the Church’s attitude.
Just an addition, I do disagree somewhat with you, there was certainly plenty of cover-ups, but not by all, and mostly it was from fear. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not defending what was done, but I realise that if they come out and pinpoint a rotten apple the world’s communications media would be all over them, so better keep quiet was the Church’s attitude.
I totally agree with you. I think UnHerd should take away the downvotes. There are people, who seem to be too lazy or not to take the time to discuss a statement, instead use the downvote
Actually, I’m not against downvotes (and I’m guilty of using them every day, probably often because my feelings are offended just as Linda says). Downvotesd do tell us something useful (though going back to plit up and down votes would be better). It’s sometimes useful to know why though.
It would be much clearer if the downvotes and upvotes were shown separately. Then the disparity would be clear, and the passion of the feelings. At the moment 100 upvotes and 99 downvotes would bizarrely show as just 1 upvote!
This.
Agree, this would greatly improve the system. I personally never downvote somebody’s view. I rather discuss … meanwhile my suggestion had -12 downvotes. Guess my view is not popular 😉
This.
Agree, this would greatly improve the system. I personally never downvote somebody’s view. I rather discuss … meanwhile my suggestion had -12 downvotes. Guess my view is not popular 😉
It would be much clearer if the downvotes and upvotes were shown separately. Then the disparity would be clear, and the passion of the feelings. At the moment 100 upvotes and 99 downvotes would bizarrely show as just 1 upvote!
I really like the downvotes. Its the only way to deal with trolls.
Or perhaps show total votes, and then the upvotes. Surely we can do our own math, and it would give us a sense of degree interest evoked by a post.
Or perhaps show total votes, and then the upvotes. Surely we can do our own math, and it would give us a sense of degree interest evoked by a post.
Actually, I’m not against downvotes (and I’m guilty of using them every day, probably often because my feelings are offended just as Linda says). Downvotesd do tell us something useful (though going back to plit up and down votes would be better). It’s sometimes useful to know why though.
I really like the downvotes. Its the only way to deal with trolls.
I’m afraid that this happens very often and it’s not helpful. Sometimes you will even get down-voted for daring to ask a question or just stating a statistic, if the question or figure is not liked by someone on here. The down votes are often just someone’s feelings (this comment makes me feel unsafe) they don’t come from considering what the original poster says.
I totally agree with you. I think UnHerd should take away the downvotes. There are people, who seem to be too lazy or not to take the time to discuss a statement, instead use the downvote
If anyone disagrees with the truth of my statements, please be kind enough to state why (alongside the downvotes).
They have all covered up sexual abuse by priests and perverted the course of justice. Benedict was as guilty as Francis. A truly rotten organisation. But the author does recognise it: “Western Europe’s most corrupt independent state”.
For those Catholics who are tired of living under the edicts of such an obviously corrupt hierarchy and Pope, there is an alternative: the Orthodox Church.
Remember, the Bishop of Rome was one of the original bishops of the original church at the time of the apostles. The rest of those bishops are still largely in communion with each other. I know you’ve got 1000 years of teaching (since the Great Schism) that says Peter’s unique commission has been mystically passed to each subsequent holder of that seat. And you would have to give that up. But in light of the mess since Vatican II, do you really believe it?
Orthodoxy certainly has its own problems, but it doesn’t suffer from whiplash caused by the moods of a single man at the top.
For those Catholics who are tired of living under the edicts of such an obviously corrupt hierarchy and Pope, there is an alternative: the Orthodox Church.
Remember, the Bishop of Rome was one of the original bishops of the original church at the time of the apostles. The rest of those bishops are still largely in communion with each other. I know you’ve got 1000 years of teaching (since the Great Schism) that says Peter’s unique commission has been mystically passed to each subsequent holder of that seat. And you would have to give that up. But in light of the mess since Vatican II, do you really believe it?
Orthodoxy certainly has its own problems, but it doesn’t suffer from whiplash caused by the moods of a single man at the top.
The phrase “hardline liberals” used here would normally have been described as an oxymoron and would have elicited a chuckle. Now we see it used in journalistic print. Whatever has a liberal class become and what on earth does it think it is?
The phrase “hardline liberals” used here would normally have been described as an oxymoron and would have elicited a chuckle. Now we see it used in journalistic print. Whatever has a liberal class become and what on earth does it think it is?
“In fact, he had described homosexuality as a sin, which is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.”
If you mean homosexual acts are not considered sinful then that is news to me.
Homosexuality, defined as a condition in which same-sex attraction predominates, is not sinful, any more than my propensity towards gluttony is. Homosexual acts are, as I sin if I overeat massively because of my greed.
Homosexuality, defined as a condition in which same-sex attraction predominates, is not sinful, any more than my propensity towards gluttony is. Homosexual acts are, as I sin if I overeat massively because of my greed.
“In fact, he had described homosexuality as a sin, which is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.”
If you mean homosexual acts are not considered sinful then that is news to me.
What’s the data on the Latin masses? How many younger people did it attract? What was the retention rate? Was it global or confined to a handful of regions?
UnHerd…please, please, please start demanding your writers publish hard numbers and data. If you’re going to make numerical claims, then back them up.
That would be a very niche subject for UnHerd. There are some Latin Mass communities especially in France and the USA that are quite vibrant and probably make more noise than their numbers would justify. In Britain few and far between. You’d think that globally the Vatican had more imporant issues to contend with and would be content to tolerate, if not celebrate, some enthusiasic if eccentric Catholics. Which means the issue is one of principle – and of wider import and interest than the statistics suggest.
This is part of my initiative to urge UnHerd to start incorporating numbers and data into their articles. Many of their authors like to make sweeping claims to illustrate a broader narrative with absolutely no back up. Here was the quote in question:
In a development that would have been unthinkable 30 years ago, Latin Mass parishes and communities are attracting disproportionate numbers of young priests and worshippers. Some of them cultivate a fogyish, holier-than-thou manner that gets up the nose of ordinary Catholics — but most of them are breathing new life into a moribund Church.
The point here was to castigate Pope Francis as this merciless, corrupt politician who gets in the way of “real Catholics”. The author even concedes that some of these communities were probably off the mark in their practice. Yet there are no numbers. How do we as readers evaluate this claim within the context of the article? Did Francis shut down 50 Catholics or 10,000? Maybe it does not matter. But my point remains–if this is important enough to be in the article, then the author needs to understand the full impact. Data has a nasty way of confounding narratives.
This is part of my initiative to urge UnHerd to start incorporating numbers and data into their articles. Many of their authors like to make sweeping claims to illustrate a broader narrative with absolutely no back up. Here was the quote in question:
In a development that would have been unthinkable 30 years ago, Latin Mass parishes and communities are attracting disproportionate numbers of young priests and worshippers. Some of them cultivate a fogyish, holier-than-thou manner that gets up the nose of ordinary Catholics — but most of them are breathing new life into a moribund Church.
The point here was to castigate Pope Francis as this merciless, corrupt politician who gets in the way of “real Catholics”. The author even concedes that some of these communities were probably off the mark in their practice. Yet there are no numbers. How do we as readers evaluate this claim within the context of the article? Did Francis shut down 50 Catholics or 10,000? Maybe it does not matter. But my point remains–if this is important enough to be in the article, then the author needs to understand the full impact. Data has a nasty way of confounding narratives.
That would be a very niche subject for UnHerd. There are some Latin Mass communities especially in France and the USA that are quite vibrant and probably make more noise than their numbers would justify. In Britain few and far between. You’d think that globally the Vatican had more imporant issues to contend with and would be content to tolerate, if not celebrate, some enthusiasic if eccentric Catholics. Which means the issue is one of principle – and of wider import and interest than the statistics suggest.
What’s the data on the Latin masses? How many younger people did it attract? What was the retention rate? Was it global or confined to a handful of regions?
UnHerd…please, please, please start demanding your writers publish hard numbers and data. If you’re going to make numerical claims, then back them up.
I wish UnHerd and the Spectator would stop trotting out Damian Thompson as if his was the only view on the state of the Catholic Church. I cannot possibly judge whether DT’s views are sensible or not without the benefit of the other side’s point of view. I am a (not particularly good)Catholic and know and respect a number of priests and others, who have met Pope Francis, and who regard him highly. They may be confused or deluded. So also may Damian Thompson. Please be a little more even handed. I suspect for every 100 “young traditionalists” the Church is losing a 1,000 cradle Catholics – DT’s orthodoxy does nothing to draw them back.
I wish UnHerd and the Spectator would stop trotting out Damian Thompson as if his was the only view on the state of the Catholic Church. I cannot possibly judge whether DT’s views are sensible or not without the benefit of the other side’s point of view. I am a (not particularly good)Catholic and know and respect a number of priests and others, who have met Pope Francis, and who regard him highly. They may be confused or deluded. So also may Damian Thompson. Please be a little more even handed. I suspect for every 100 “young traditionalists” the Church is losing a 1,000 cradle Catholics – DT’s orthodoxy does nothing to draw them back.
Then there are the Newcastle Cathedral sex parties!
Divisions within the Catholic church? Hmm it seems to suggest the Holy Spirit is either having a holiday or moving in v mysterious way.
Joking aside, if one believes the catholic God does indeed imbue his Pope with the Holy Spirit then getting partisan about differences is a potential act against that God…isn’t it? I’m not a Catholic but if the Holy Spirit has moved to give you the current Pope who am I or you to question?
The catholic church prides itself on absolute truths. It’s what attracts so many, (albeit forgetting the Church has changed some of it’s absolute truths over the centuries…just a bit more slowly). But it also believes it’s Pope the father of this Church and imbued with the Holy Spirit. In the theological fight does seem to the in-looker they pick and choose when to play the Holy Spirit card.
Divisions within the Catholic church? Hmm it seems to suggest the Holy Spirit is either having a holiday or moving in v mysterious way.
Joking aside, if one believes the catholic God does indeed imbue his Pope with the Holy Spirit then getting partisan about differences is a potential act against that God…isn’t it? I’m not a Catholic but if the Holy Spirit has moved to give you the current Pope who am I or you to question?
The catholic church prides itself on absolute truths. It’s what attracts so many, (albeit forgetting the Church has changed some of it’s absolute truths over the centuries…just a bit more slowly). But it also believes it’s Pope the father of this Church and imbued with the Holy Spirit. In the theological fight does seem to the in-looker they pick and choose when to play the Holy Spirit card.
The title of this screed against Pope Francis is misleading this is not an article about the catholic civil war it is a Molotov cocktail thrown at the Pope by the conservative side. It is so blatantly biased that it can’t be and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
The title of this screed against Pope Francis is misleading this is not an article about the catholic civil war it is a Molotov cocktail thrown at the Pope by the conservative side. It is so blatantly biased that it can’t be and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Francis doesn’t seem to me to be lucky, rather frustrated in his desires, or desires that are only destructive, or at best don’t go anywhere at all. As far as his luck goes it’s of the same sort that tyrannical dictators enjoy until it runs out.
Francis doesn’t seem to me to be lucky, rather frustrated in his desires, or desires that are only destructive, or at best don’t go anywhere at all. As far as his luck goes it’s of the same sort that tyrannical dictators enjoy until it runs out.
Man, so many words… please just come home to reformed catholicism (“conservative, confessional Lutheranism” if you must name it). Put this whole debate under the authority of God’s word – not man’s – where it belongs.
Man, so many words… please just come home to reformed catholicism (“conservative, confessional Lutheranism” if you must name it). Put this whole debate under the authority of God’s word – not man’s – where it belongs.
Let’s keep this simple. Draw up two columns – Progressive and Conservative, with Jesus on top. Look to the New Testament and see how many examples we can find to fulfil each criteria. It could be interesting to do the same exercise with Benedict and Francis . Ditto Simon Peter. Supreme Pontiffs have overcome many challenges over the centuries and the Church remains solid as a rock, true to form. The Catholic Church can be many different things to many different people, the clue is in the name. My own relationship with the Church is very much Parent – Child; I appreciate the boundaries and have felt secure to test waters beyond parental home, knowing that one will be welcomed as one finds one own way home. I happen to love a Latin Mass, partly because my mother tongue isn’t English. I gladly give to Cafod but not a penny to White Flower Appeal. Today’s readings focus on Light, with today’s response being “The good man is a light in the darkness for the upright”. I believe Francis to embody the teachings of the Son more closely than Benedict. I think we can all agree that Iesus Nazarenus was a political figure, and that he was neither authoritarian or statist. I’m all for Theology and welcomed the sanctioning of Thomistic Study by Benedict as a tool to address the pressing issues of the day. Terminology such as “civil war” is divisive and polarising, but I guess it’s done its job in prompting a 100+ responses to this article, and indeed prompted me to draw up two camps. I don’t like seeing the Church drawn into the “War on Woke”, but accept that it’s inevitable. We all need to find our own Truth, be it through meditation, prayer or simply sitting still in nature. I’ll end with last line of today’s Second Reading- “your faith should not depend on human philosophy but on the power of God”. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Deus Caritas Est.
Let’s keep this simple. Draw up two columns – Progressive and Conservative, with Jesus on top. Look to the New Testament and see how many examples we can find to fulfil each criteria. It could be interesting to do the same exercise with Benedict and Francis . Ditto Simon Peter. Supreme Pontiffs have overcome many challenges over the centuries and the Church remains solid as a rock, true to form. The Catholic Church can be many different things to many different people, the clue is in the name. My own relationship with the Church is very much Parent – Child; I appreciate the boundaries and have felt secure to test waters beyond parental home, knowing that one will be welcomed as one finds one own way home. I happen to love a Latin Mass, partly because my mother tongue isn’t English. I gladly give to Cafod but not a penny to White Flower Appeal. Today’s readings focus on Light, with today’s response being “The good man is a light in the darkness for the upright”. I believe Francis to embody the teachings of the Son more closely than Benedict. I think we can all agree that Iesus Nazarenus was a political figure, and that he was neither authoritarian or statist. I’m all for Theology and welcomed the sanctioning of Thomistic Study by Benedict as a tool to address the pressing issues of the day. Terminology such as “civil war” is divisive and polarising, but I guess it’s done its job in prompting a 100+ responses to this article, and indeed prompted me to draw up two camps. I don’t like seeing the Church drawn into the “War on Woke”, but accept that it’s inevitable. We all need to find our own Truth, be it through meditation, prayer or simply sitting still in nature. I’ll end with last line of today’s Second Reading- “your faith should not depend on human philosophy but on the power of God”. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Deus Caritas Est.
Ratzinger should have been dumped outside the doors of Vatican City where he deserved to be since his disgrace and being given sanctuary by the institution that is the RC church. He should have been locked up for facilitating child abuse on an unimaginable scale.
Ratzinger should have been dumped outside the doors of Vatican City where he deserved to be since his disgrace and being given sanctuary by the institution that is the RC church. He should have been locked up for facilitating child abuse on an unimaginable scale.
The author of this post seems to assume that ordination of women is self evidently wrong. Even many conservatives would not concur.
The author of this post seems to assume that ordination of women is self evidently wrong. Even many conservatives would not concur.
There are very many Catholics in this country who do not at all think that Damian Thompson speaks for them. It would be nice if Unherd gave more of them a voice on these matters.
Damian has a unique, lovely voice, with a U.K. perspective I quite enjoy. I think he is a unique gift here, as are other writers here. This is Unherd, not a sushi/burger/waffle house/oyster bar/ kebap house….Perhaps dine elsewhere for a varied diet, and enjoy what Unherd serves at Unherd? It is not primarily a religiously oriented magazine, and the internet is vast…Not being mean, but the magazine is not causing you or anyone else harm, because there is no barrier to reading widely. And I do not intend to be mean here.
(Like I am not the only Catholic who can offer an opinion, although I happen to be here, now.)
What needs to be said? There is space here for you.
If you want the usual guff about moving with the times, being inclusive and saving the planet there’s the Guardian and a few other places to go to.
Damian has a unique, lovely voice, with a U.K. perspective I quite enjoy. I think he is a unique gift here, as are other writers here. This is Unherd, not a sushi/burger/waffle house/oyster bar/ kebap house….Perhaps dine elsewhere for a varied diet, and enjoy what Unherd serves at Unherd? It is not primarily a religiously oriented magazine, and the internet is vast…Not being mean, but the magazine is not causing you or anyone else harm, because there is no barrier to reading widely. And I do not intend to be mean here.
(Like I am not the only Catholic who can offer an opinion, although I happen to be here, now.)
What needs to be said? There is space here for you.
If you want the usual guff about moving with the times, being inclusive and saving the planet there’s the Guardian and a few other places to go to.
There are very many Catholics in this country who do not at all think that Damian Thompson speaks for them. It would be nice if Unherd gave more of them a voice on these matters.
Strange that I don’t see Catholic and Christian in the same sentence! I am a nominal Anglican and we celebrate the catholic-ie all embracing – church. I don’t find much all embracing about the 21st century Roman Catholic Church. Rather it seems somewhat stuck in the Middle Ages. If you insist that priests are celibate of course you’re going to have men searching for sex wherever they can find it – it’s hardly rocket science! Benedict may have been a great theologian but was he a great Christian?
It seems he was a great Christian. ;- ). I personally don’t feel that I am back in the Middle Ages, but here contemporarily with my faith. It isn’t stuck in the Middle Ages, but is informed by the teachings of (someone), whose teachings hold today, as much as it did 2000 years ago.
Yes, twerking, porn and all the other “delights” of today are not necessary nor even enriching to life. There are some great priests who deal with celibacy well and have fantastic lives. However, it seems that continence and chastity is not a value promulgated by the new, often lavender, clubs in seminary, so pornography and continence can be hard for seminarians and priests, as they fall into the louche habits that are promulgated on campus, with resulting porn addictions plaguing many lay men and women today.
And, yes, Catholicism is pretty demanding. You live sort of like a Marine, or Navy Seal, and feel grateful and (humble) pridefulness in your progress defeating habits and habits of mind that are not good for anyone in your mission, which is pleasing G. Knowing that this is continual, and that there are always times of failing, especially when I, and most other Christians, am not even close to a Marine or Navy Seal level, but keeping faith and getting faith through grace, by keeping connection with G. It is pretty wonderful, a challenge and a blessing.
Come the Revolution, you will be in the same cell as the Catholics and thinking that the Middle Ages was a time of great wisdom and common sense. Just before you get dragged off to the stake for claiming that a man is not a woman.
It seems he was a great Christian. ;- ). I personally don’t feel that I am back in the Middle Ages, but here contemporarily with my faith. It isn’t stuck in the Middle Ages, but is informed by the teachings of (someone), whose teachings hold today, as much as it did 2000 years ago.
Yes, twerking, porn and all the other “delights” of today are not necessary nor even enriching to life. There are some great priests who deal with celibacy well and have fantastic lives. However, it seems that continence and chastity is not a value promulgated by the new, often lavender, clubs in seminary, so pornography and continence can be hard for seminarians and priests, as they fall into the louche habits that are promulgated on campus, with resulting porn addictions plaguing many lay men and women today.
And, yes, Catholicism is pretty demanding. You live sort of like a Marine, or Navy Seal, and feel grateful and (humble) pridefulness in your progress defeating habits and habits of mind that are not good for anyone in your mission, which is pleasing G. Knowing that this is continual, and that there are always times of failing, especially when I, and most other Christians, am not even close to a Marine or Navy Seal level, but keeping faith and getting faith through grace, by keeping connection with G. It is pretty wonderful, a challenge and a blessing.
Come the Revolution, you will be in the same cell as the Catholics and thinking that the Middle Ages was a time of great wisdom and common sense. Just before you get dragged off to the stake for claiming that a man is not a woman.
Strange that I don’t see Catholic and Christian in the same sentence! I am a nominal Anglican and we celebrate the catholic-ie all embracing – church. I don’t find much all embracing about the 21st century Roman Catholic Church. Rather it seems somewhat stuck in the Middle Ages. If you insist that priests are celibate of course you’re going to have men searching for sex wherever they can find it – it’s hardly rocket science! Benedict may have been a great theologian but was he a great Christian?