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MAGA’s divisions can’t be healed The H-1B row is only the start

'The tragedy is that the pro-H-1B faction is arguably correct.' Brandon Bell/Getty Images

'The tragedy is that the pro-H-1B faction is arguably correct.' Brandon Bell/Getty Images


January 3, 2025   7 mins

Even before his return to the Oval Office, the coalition that allowed Trump to win the election is fracturing. It is still too early to tell just how serious the rift caused by the H-1B visa row really is. But what’s truly shocking is just how quickly and how dramatically the onset of serious internal conflicts within MAGA has been. Even the more cynical observer would have probably been inclined to give Trump until the 2026 midterms before the presidential honeymoon was over; now it seems in trouble a full month before the presidential term has even started.

At the heart of this growing rupture are the two figures who just a short while ago were feted as genius reformers by much of the MAGA Right: Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk. Though Trump has always displayed an uncanny ability to walk away from controversy pretty much unscathed, the same cannot be said of Vivek and Elon. And while neither actually started this controversy, both have chosen to jump into the fray to become principal spokespeople for the pro-H-1B Silicon Valley set, thereby confirming the fears on the MAGA Right that Trump is about to “sell out” on immigration.

To say that this is a serious conflict is an understatement. In truth, the use — and abuse — of H-1B visas is about as hated by the Republican voting base as America’s tacit acceptance of illegal immigration as a way to dump working class wages. Musk and Ramaswamy are happy to regale us with stories about H-1B visas being crucial in order to draw in “the best and brightest” to America so that it can compete with China. But neither will publicly acknowledge the H-1B programme’s most important and beguiling feature for American employers.

Because the key feature of the H-1B visa is not that it offers American employers and companies such as Tesla and SpaceX a chance to attract the world’s best and brightest. In fact, that function is already being fulfilled by the O-1 visa, which specifically exists to do just this job. The O-1 offers individuals with “extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics” a chance to work inside the United States; unlike the H-1B, the O-1 has no element of lottery to it, nor is it capped.

But the O-1 visa is meant for individuals; it can be used to bring over Nobel Prize winners and computer geniuses, and to secure one, you (or your employer) has to actually demonstrate that you possess some sort of extraordinary ability. H-1B, by contrast, offers access to a far larger number of far more ordinary workers. And these workers, once they arrive inside the United States, have almost zero bargaining power with their employer, because their visa is tied directly to their employment. An American programmer who is asked to work unpaid overtime cannot be deported from the country for saying “no”. A programmer brought over on a H-1B visa can; this makes him a far less demanding person to employ.

This is not a big secret. As far back as in 2015, the way in which the H-1B program was being used to essentially replace American workers with indentured foreigners was well known. To take just one example, tech workers employed by Disney came to work one morning to find that they were all going to be fired. Their last task was to train their replacements, brought over courtesy of the H-1B program. So much for “best and brightest” rhetoric. When Wernher von Braun or Albert Einstein came to America, they did so because they were the trainers, not the trainees.

As the H-1B controversy has intensified, many Silicon Valley grandees — such as megadonor and billionaire David Sacks —  have tried to defuse it by appealing to the idea of a grander common interest. Sure, maybe Silicon Valley and MAGA Main Street can’t actually agree on H-1B visas, but that has nothing to do with the issue of illegal immigration. But this framing is a sleight of hand, because both sorts of workers are essentially the same: functionally indentured servants, with very limited economic and political rights. And it is the end product here — the destruction of American living standards through the growing use of indentured foreign labour — that people are actually fed up with, not the legality or illegality of that process.

The real question here is not “does America need Einstein?” The actual core contradiction that is now tearing apart Donald Trump’s fusion of Main Street, middle-class populists on one hand, and billionaire CEOs on the other, can more succinctly be put as: “Does America need indentured labour?” Indentured labour force already exists for blue-collar work, which is why the Republican Party has never shown much interest in cracking down on large institutional employers of illegal immigrants. Now, the time has come for white-collar workers to be subjected to similar competition.

The tragedy is that the pro-H-1B faction is arguably correct, at least from their own point of view. If “America” really wants to “compete with China and Russia”, and if it really wants to “win against China”, H-1B visas are probably necessary. In this view, the expansion of all manners of legal or illegal channels of labour arbitrage is all but inevitable, and the deterioration of founding-stock American living standards is not just unavoidable, it is in fact necessary. It is necessary, because what is meant here by “America” is not a country for or by the American people. The “America” that can only “win against China” through large scale labour importation is not America the people: but America the empire.

And America today truly is an empire. If you put all the foreign military bases of China, Russia, India and Iran together, the sum total barely reaches two dozen. America, by contrast, has between 700 and 800. But it is visibly struggling to maintain those bases: its ships are rusting, its military recruitment is collapsing, its industrial base is rotten, and its finances are spiraling out of control. This effectively means that, in the natural lifecycle of empires, America is now firmly in the decline phase. That shouldn’t be controversial, especially because the amount of people who would protest that characterisation — at least off the record — inside Washington itself is very visibly dwindling.

Thus, America finds itself in the same situation as pretty much every other empire on the decline, where it becomes increasingly necessary to cannibalise the very population that served as its original creators. Take the Roman Empire, which was carried by Roman martial virtue in the beginning and ended with half-barbarian generals commanding mostly barbarian soldiers, fighting to keep “Rome” going. Stilicho, the last effective general Rome had, was executed in 408. By 410, Alaric I and his Visigoths had sacked Rome. Of course, just a few years earlier, Stilicho and Alaric had been comrades in arms inside the Roman army.

The reasons the Romans trotted out for needing Alaric were more or less the same as what you’ll find being said in America nowadays. Rome had a recruitment crisis; Romans no longer had a proper work ethic; Rome needed to attract the best and brightest (or at least the strongest and toughest) if it wanted to compete in the world. The Roman people were a spent force; to keep “their” empire going, the actual Roman people were slowly replaced piecemeal until they essentially ceased to exist.

In the same way, the Ottoman Empire collapsed in large part because the Turks felt they were being bled dry in order to defend a sick and decrepit order that would replace them all in a heartbeat if that’s what it took to keep the state going for a bit longer. Before he was assassinated, in 1914, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir presumptive to what was once just called the Austrian Empire, planned to save it by transforming it into a sprawling federation in which the Austrians would just be a minor group among many. Talk to a Russian nationalist today, and it won’t take much cajoling to find that their most common cause of resentment toward the Soviet Union was how it — at least in their view — would put ordinary Russians last to prop up a global imperial project. No matter how far back we turn the clock, the story is always the same. Now, the time has come for the Americans.

One of the most aggressive preachers of this message — that the time has come for Americans to wake up and smell the coffee — has been Vivek Ramaswamy. He was, at one point, seen as a dutiful lieutenant to the broader MAGA movement; now he might have become its most loathed bête noire. In a very long post on X, Ramaswamy said the time had come for the American people to stop watching reruns of Friends, hanging out at the mall, and sending their girls to sleepover parties. No, such frivolous activities were no longer sufficient in today’s competitive world: if America wanted to “beat China”, the American people would have to become more Asian themselves, working far longer hours and subjecting their children to study regimens similar to Japan or South Korea. The fact that these cultures have collapsing birthrates and are essentially going extinct from stress and overwork did not earn much consideration from Ramaswamy; presumably, once that happens in America, the difference can simply be made up by even more immigration.

“Now Ramaswamy might have become MAGA’s most loathed bête noire.”

Even if this H-1B visa controversy blows over, it won’t solve the basic conflict within the MAGA coalition. For their slogan “Make America Great Again” represents an essential contradiction: there are at least two “Americas” being talked about. If, on the one hand, you mean the American people, then replacing these workers with Indians, or sending US military helicopters to the Middle East, instead of dispatching them to North Carolina for disaster relief, is anathema. If, on the other, you care about the survival of the American empire, then the demands of “legacy” Americans really do come across as increasingly petty: these people won’t even sign up for the military anymore, and yet they have the gall to complain at the idea of bringing in foreigners to serve as replacement legionnaires in their stead?

Sure, “Make America Great Again” is a great political slogan. But it is also one that Donald Trump and many people may come to regret, because it has long masked what is now exploding out into the open. There were always two Americas, two conceptions of the future hidden beneath those words. Today, each side in this fight is increasingly finding that the other’s conception of “America” is not just offensive, it is completely irreconcilable with their own. That, too, is a very old human story. These kinds of basic, definitional disagreements about the purpose or nature of a polity should be taken very seriously: they are, at the end of the day, why civil wars actually happen.


Malcom Kyeyune is a freelance writer living in Uppsala, Sweden

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T Bone
T Bone
4 days ago

This might be the most manufactured drama of all time. We’re talking about a wonky tweet debate between elites before Trump even takes office. The alternative is the Democratic Party.

Is it the Author’s opinion that the Democratic Party would handle the situation better? Or should we just be electing Democrats to continue managing America’s decline?

The Democrats aren’t allowed to publicly challenge each other when in power because they believe all dissent threatens solidarity. Maybe the Democrats were onto something with their censorship regime. It minimized public debate and public debate apparently creates openings for “Feud Narratives.”

ChilblainEdwardOlmos
ChilblainEdwardOlmos
4 days ago
Reply to  T Bone

Word.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
4 days ago
Reply to  T Bone

Ya. I thought this was more than a bit hyperbolic. America has issues no question, but so does China and Russia.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
3 days ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

They do, but they’re not relevant to this discussion. I wouldn’t expect to read about a domestic spat about American visas in an article about China’s falling birth rate or looming real estate bubble for instance

j watson
j watson
3 days ago
Reply to  T Bone

‘Wonky tweet debate’ – you wish. I suspect you are waking up slowly and uncomfortably.
The deflection on Democrats irrelevant. They aren’t in power now having to square all the slogans and promises made. They share some blame though for having the enabled this coming chaos

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

This is just more confected wishful thinking.

Like most Americans Trump has always been in favour of legal immigration and has said so repeatedly. The issue is open borders gerrymandering.

j watson
j watson
3 days ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Absolutely he is – if it reduces his costs and is indentured. Unfortunately key MAGA people like Steve Bannon are not.
They have common ground on ‘illegals’ but Trump/Elon showing where they aren’t going to invest in American skill development and will import more from elsewhere for those high tech jobs. And then over time who’d you think will be running things? This is what Bannon is saying has to stop.
Awkward picking a side isn’t it, esp when you thought they were on the same side.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

You’re clutching at straws. What matters is that Americans have come together across boundaries of race and class to reject your divisive, elitist and self-serving ideology. It took a long time to happen. It will take a longer time to undo.

Now the same thing is going to happen everywhere in Europe. It’s over. Get used to it.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

Oh I blame them almost exclusively for Trump. I blame them for sabotaging Bernie’s campaign, twice. I blame them for abandoning the working class. I blame them for getting distracted on nonsense like transgenderism and CRT. I blame them for running a clearly senile old man who deserved better. I blame them for choosing his replacement based on gender and color rather than the ability to win an election. I blame them 50% for the neoliberal globalist policies that led to decades of closing factories, falling wages, and rising inequality. Did I miss anything there? The reality is that as many ways as Trump screwed up in his first term and since, he looks downright competent next to the clowns running the other side. I hope someone can reform the Democratic Party into something that actually appeals to and advocates for all Americans rather than the group of smug intellectuals they actually resemble these days. Not holding my breath.

T Bone
T Bone
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

When are you going to realize you’re getting played by the Tabloid Press for clicks. The Press is treating Trump like a member of the Royal Family. This is a non-story. It’s a salacious, fictional Feud Narrative which is obviously your jam because it allows you to project Self-Righteousness.

No matter how wrong you’ve been over the past 8 years, you will continue projecting Self-righteousness because that’s what envious people do. Envious people just want to see impressive people knocked down because it makes them feel better about themselves.

General Store
General Store
3 days ago
Reply to  T Bone

I wish Unherd would introduce a ‘snore’ emoji meaning ‘I never want to hear from this writer again’. Although to be fair, Lee would top the charts.

Paul Rodolf
Paul Rodolf
3 days ago
Reply to  T Bone

Agreed. Wishful thinking on the part of this author methinks.

Evan Heneghan
Evan Heneghan
4 days ago

Mate, I feel you’re reading into an argument on Twitter a bit too much. Musk is looking for cheap labour to compete against the Chinese state sponsored companies, hardly a surprise. MAGA hillbillies (no disrespect meant with that term) don’t like the idea of foreign workers undercutting American workers. Luckily Elon isn’t the president and Trump will hardly consider this little flare up high up in his priority list.

Still, enjoyed the article, cheers.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
3 days ago
Reply to  Evan Heneghan

I think the bigger issue is that Trump has seemingly come down in support of Musk rather than the grass roots that elected him. Whether he can wriggle his way out of it we’ll wait and see but to embroiled in such a row before you’ve even started the job must be some kind of record

Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
3 days ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

There’s no row here. Both sides have calmed down after Elon Musk’s Twitter tirade and are looking for common ground. I think they’ll find it. Everyone knows the H1-B program is being abused (I know from personal experience) but everyone also accepts that we need to attract top talent (like the Elon Musks of the world, who was himself an illegal immigrant before getting an H1-B visa).

j watson
j watson
3 days ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

There’s no row? Did you read the avalanche of racial anti-Indian abuse that was triggered. Why’d you think Elon blocked Loomer (who’s 1.5 MAGA subscribers)?
As Article outlines this wasn’t about the v best v top talent. H-1B been about undermining the requirement to invest in Americans and stop employees complaining too much. Welcome to Trump World.

Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

There was a flare-up on Twitter that lasted for a day or two that has now died out. Lara Loomer is a bit of a loony who has no role within the Republican party or the MAGA movement. The row is over, and this H1-B issue is not going to matter.

El Uro
El Uro
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

Lem me disagree with you.
If you immigrated into new country be ready to meet people who dislike you.
If you behave like you do in your country, dress like you do in your country, eat what people eat in your country, you shouldn’t complain.
This is normal, people everywhere and always distrust strangers, especially if there are too many strangers. Nobody care are these strangers legal or not, but people have a (reasonable!) feeling they are loosing their country. Accept that.
It is your job to gain the trust of others, and not their job to tolerate your habits. But if you don’t understand this and accuse others of racism, be prepared to face hostility towards you, because in this case you are the racist and invader!

Last edited 3 days ago by El Uro
RA Znayder
RA Znayder
3 days ago
Reply to  Evan Heneghan

I think the ‘state sponsoring’ is a poor argument against China since many big Westerns companies are also subsidized to a large degree. Either directly or through monetary policies like QE. Furthermore they are often protected against market discipline as well.

Andrew Vanbarner
Andrew Vanbarner
3 days ago
Reply to  RA Znayder

Yes, but American universities are wildly expensive. In China they’re “free.” I don’t know how much college and grad school costs in India, but probably not six figures plus, like it is in the US.
I work in tech. I love my coworkers from overseas, but would prefer to not see 30 years of education, training, and experience be hugely reduced in value.
Either way, increasing the minimum salary under J1B would ameliorate or prevent the abuses, such as the ones Disney committed.

Last edited 3 days ago by Andrew Vanbarner
Benedict Waterson
Benedict Waterson
3 days ago
Reply to  Evan Heneghan

Aw that’s alright then Evan.
No intrinsic tension there at all,
Thanks for that

Last edited 3 days ago by Benedict Waterson
Andrew Vanbarner
Andrew Vanbarner
3 days ago
Reply to  Evan Heneghan

This is a debate that’s always existed within the two halves of the Republican party – business moderates versus what used to be known as the God Squad, who’ve been somewhat replaced by MAGA.
Increasing salary minimums under J1B would neatly solve the issue, as Musk recently suggested.
Hardly a huge fracture in the GOP coalition. Now if we can just get the Libertarians to see the necessities of immigration laws. And policemen.

Last edited 3 days ago by Andrew Vanbarner
Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
3 days ago

Usually I criticize commentators for making complex issues too simple. Here I think this author makes a simple issue too complex. The debate about H1-B visas has been going on for decades, long before the term MAGA had meaning. It’s not that important an issue, and certainly not a portending factor of a complex event like the dying of the American empire or a civil war. It’s just a simple issue that will matter little either way.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
3 days ago

It’s a bit early to declare the populist movement defeated less than two months after they won the election and before any policy has yet been laid down. Also, any argument on the Internet at any given time may bear little to no resemblance to the real opinions of the grassroots. Most of Trump’s core voters aren’t even on X. I’m not convinced this is anything more than an ordinary intraparty political squabble that is being played out in public because these days it seems everything must be played out in public whether anyone thinks its a good idea or not. When the rubber hits the road and actual policies get put in place, that’s when the real reaction, if there’s going to be one, will come, and that’s when Trump will simply reverse himself if he feels he needs to as he has so many times before.

That said, this is a plausible faultline over the longer term. The reality is that Trump can’t run again, so the fight over succession of the movement is already starting. Elon Musk isn’t a native born American so he can’t run for President, but there’s a whole host of politicians now waiting for an opening to distinguish themselves. The tech bros have the same problem that the rest of corporate America has, Americans hate their bosses, they hate corporations that micromanage from one or the other coast, and they hate being lectured about the competitive global economy. Anything that comes exclusively from big money is going to be rejected by the people. I’ve been making the point for weeks that Trump owes his popularity and his victory to just how much animus there is from the people towards the corporations and the super rich. There’s so much in fact that their support for a candidate is a net negative. Musk enjoyed a momentary acceptance from the right for what he did with twitter and is probably trying to play that for all its worth. Whether he will get his way on H1B visas is debatable. It really depends on the grassroots reaction. Trump isn’t the problem. It’s that the elites have lost control of the Republican party. Now that Trump has shown the way, it won’t be hard for the next populist opportunist outsider to show up and finish what’s been started. There’s a whole host of politicians probably hoping desperately that this visa row is a legitimate fracture because it opens the opportunity for them to declare Trump a sellout and take over the movement.

Vivek has probably torpedoed any chance he had to succeed the movement. Asking Americans to be more Asian is going to go over like a lead balloon. The reality is that the Chinese people are slaves to a totalitarian government.. The answer to defeat such a state cannot be to recreate slave conditions in other ways. If we can’t do any better than that, maybe we should just let the Chinese win. Then their citizens can pay for all those bases all over the planet and the navy to keep the sea lanes open and all that other stuff. America can get along well enough with what it has on its own soil and in this hemisphere. Seriously folks. There are an awful lot of Americans that wouldn’t object to just closing all those bases down and pocketing the money, to heck with the global economy.

The thing about empires is when they fall, they pull a lot of stuff down with them. The fall of Rome resulted in a dark age in Europe that lasted almost a thousand years. There’s never been an empire on the scale of the US’s and the globe is interconnected as never before. If the US falls, how much other stuff gets sucked into the void when it collapses? Can anyone say they have any idea what the world would look like afterwards? Does anyone want to see that? I think this author should be more careful what he wishes for.

Last edited 3 days ago by Steve Jolly
j watson
j watson
3 days ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

The issue for the Republican party is can they get much done next couple of years whoever they are beholden to? We’ll get a sense v quickly. They could lose the tiny majorities they hold in 2 yrs time and the current disagreements don’t need to be down the middle to cause legislative gridlock.
Winning through the amplification and effective channelling of rage and governing effectively are quite different tasks as we all know by now. There’s a reason Trump never built the Wall or replaced Obamacare.
Agree the Fall of Rome angle was well overplayed.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

You’re not wrong. I’ve never been fond of Trump. I’ve never believed him to be the revolutionary populist leader we need to take on the global oligarchy and the threat from China. He’s long on insults and short on ideas. I’m slightly more optimistic that he’ll accomplish some things this time around because of the people he’s recruited around him. A big issue in 2016 was that he didn’t expect to actually win the election. He expected to lose and play that into one or several of his usual money making schemes. Then he won and had to go crawling to Mitch McConnell and the old guard just to fill his cabinet posts and thus his first term was defined by ineffectiveness and internal conflict. This is not 2016. The populist movement is now much more established, and it has gone global as basically every western country has some version of a nationalist/populist party He’s recruited most of the US populist movement to serve in his administration, from outsiders like Elon Musk to former Democrats like RFK, to former Republican establishment figures like Rubio who went populist to sustain their political careers. He at least can fix the border crisis unilaterally. The executive branch has full authority to enforce the existing laws, and the existing laws are enough to get a whole lot of people deported without much legal recourse. What he can do without Congress he has a decent chance to accomplish.

I doubt Trump will lead revolutionary changes in an intelligent way that actually works. Rather I think he’ll dither and qualify and backtrack and wander and do things halfway. Overall, I give Trump about a 40 percent chance of having a somewhat effective administration that pushes the populist agenda forward in incremental ways and does enough to keep him in charge of the movement and put his considerable weight towards deciding who will succeed him. I give him an equal 40% chance to do basically what he did the first time, which is basically govern like a traditional Republican while engaging in pointless media feuds and letting internal conflicts undermine his administration. The remaining 20% I break down as a 15% chance that some other unforeseen event, an economic crisis, plague, war, or disaster of some type will intervene and basically overcome the populist/globalist conflict for a time, and a 5% chance Trump will screw up in some colossal way that basically destroys his political credibility and throws his movement into chaos.

Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
3 days ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Donald Trump does have his faults, but he is a lot better than any of the alternatives. At least, that’s my impression. Can you think of anyone better?

Last edited 3 days ago by Carlos Danger
Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
2 days ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

Josh Hawley, Rand Paul, and Bernie Sanders, in that order but not for the same reasons. Yes I realize they are wildly different in terms of policy, but they are all disliked intensely by the globalist blob. and in their own way put the American people first. They’re not afraid to work with the other side to do the right thing. I think they each would bring profound change of different kinds with different pros and cons to each. They is mote than one way to skin this globalist cat and these three would have a better shot than Trump in my opinion. Trump was better than the one alternative this election, but that’s not a high bar to clear.

j watson
j watson
1 day ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Concur, although I lean more towards Trump not really understanding what it would take to fundamentally change the neo-liberal global economic order. He’s way too transactional. US as a Nation benefits hugely, but many of it’s people less so. So which way does he lean because one has to diminish to help the other? He daily fixates on the stock market so I think he’s tied to Globalism.
Hence I agree there are others who ‘get it’ much more who then also have fewer character deficits too.
As regards will he at least do what he did in 1st term? Rarely are Sequels better. He’s had more prep time for sure, but he’s older and whilst not Bidenesque yet any Actuary would be betting on some significant health issues coming years.

Last edited 1 day ago by j watson
Maverick Melonsmith
Maverick Melonsmith
1 day ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Sanders is a socialist (by his own admission) though, so I would have thought that rules him out.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 day ago

I don’t care for labels. I don’t honestly know why Sanders still sticks to the label. He’s not advocating for the abolition of private property or a command economy. He isn’t trying to spread socialism around the world. He’s not advocating for anything all that radical or revolutionary. His biggest ask, a wealth tax, is more a recognition that the government is taxing the wrong thing than it is some kind of creeping socialism. He respects the democratic process and listens to the people. He has been willing to challenge big business and the donor class. That’s better than what we have.

Maverick Melonsmith
Maverick Melonsmith
1 day ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

Really? I only know a few dozen Americans, and I’d say “every one of them”.

El Uro
El Uro
3 days ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

If you think Kamala would save you, see your family doctor immediately!
The reality is very simple – you have two imperfect options (I can’t even imagine an “ideal option”), and you need to choose the less bad one. It’s always like that.

j watson
j watson
1 day ago
Reply to  El Uro

The issue isn’t about Harris EU. Democrats did not get the best candidate and whilst she probably came over better than many expected she’d have never won the nomination via the usual process.
The issue with those who supported Trump is how much of the lies did folks really believe? Few believed it all of course. However the sense that he’s not really MAGA much at all is going to grow and that will surprise more who got taken in.

Maverick Melonsmith
Maverick Melonsmith
1 day ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Rather I think he’ll dither and qualify and backtrack and wander and do things halfway“…..whilst of course telling everybody that he’s the world’s greatest genius.

Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
3 days ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Gosh that’s a lot of dissonant thinking. Everything is fine but they are definitely squabbling in public?
The MAGA base hate the super rich so much they elected the most flamboyant of all of them partnered up with the top dog?
Close all those bases and pocket the money but forget about the economic engine that is the US military industrial complex?
America is the biggest empire and can’t fail but let’s pull back inside our borders?
Rome fell and left behind a 1000 years of dark ages is your hot take on global history from 400-1400?

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
3 days ago

I’ll admit it’s not my best comment. Stayed up way too late last night. Still, what you call dissonant thinking I call seeing both sides of an argument. It’s possible to respect an opinion you don’t agree with entirely and consider the possibility he might turn out to have the right of it. History is the only true judge, not me or anybody else, and there’s quite a bit of history yet to be written. Depending on how things fall, the author could be right, and I’m recognizing the possibility. I think it’s too soon to tell. Again, when actual policy is implemented, then we can truly gauge what the grassroots reaction will be.

It’s hard to judge things like that just from social media spats, because there’s probably two or three times as many people arguing just as stridently a few comments over about whether Taylor Swift will get engaged to Travis Kelce or break up with him and write a hit song about it. I root for the latter because I want to hear that break up song. The Internet in total is probably 10% information, 20% memes, 30% weird or funny youtube videos, and 40% porn. I’m not yet ready to make real world conclusions from tweet fights.

Also, Trump is not super rich and never has been. He was denied the right to buy an NFL team back in the 80s because he wasn’t rich enough, and because he was a jackass. He’s never been included by the davos set or the big political donor classes in their exclusive company. Frankly I think he resents them for excluding him and that formed part of his motivation for entering politics. They didn’t let him into their exclusive country club so he returns with a mob of angry peasants to burn it down. Musk is super rich and he’s treading on awfully thin ice. The people could turn on him pretty quickly. Any halfway competent politician should understand that anti-elite sentiment is as strong as its ever been and they’ll recognize an opportunity to knock Trump off his throne if this ultimately becomes a policy battle rather than a social media spat. Trump might take Musk’s side now but he might also change his mind two weeks from now. He kinda has a history of that. If we learned anything from Trump 1.0 its to ignore the words and pay attention to what he actually does in office.

Last edited 3 days ago by Steve Jolly
Maverick Melonsmith
Maverick Melonsmith
1 day ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

I read somewhere that if Trump had simply kept the assets is father owned, and invested the income wisely, he’d be worth $80 billion now.

Andrew Vanbarner
Andrew Vanbarner
3 days ago

Not so dissonant.
Trump was never someone like Mitt Romney, nor William F Buckley, Jr. He’s from Queens, not the Upper West Side, and builds apartments and casinos, not wooden sailboats, nor fine wines.
The military industrial complex wastes huge amounts of money on cronyism, fraud, and things that have little to do with defense. Most of our bases should stay open, some aren’t needed, and either way our navy needs a thorough renovation.
The US is not perfect, and no nation is. Certainly no global empire is. But we are the world’s superpower, and are obviously far more humane than slave trading Rome, or the brutal and corrupt East India Company. It’s entirely possible for us to both protect our allies and our interests overseas without vanishing in borderless chaos, trading away all of our industry, or sending our young men into harm’s way.
The Roman and Ottoman Empires were largely built on slavery and extraction. Officially, we enslave no one, and in a de facto manner (and only on some levels of foreign trade) far, far fewer. The Dark Ages probably weren’t quite so dark, but we shine far more brightly than any other “empire.” We are obviously far preferable to a world ruled by the CCP.
We are still largely based on constitutional (or liberal, in the sense of constitutionally guaranteed liberties) democracy. An American world order is so far the most humane world order the planet has ever known, and most Americans enjoy a relatively secure, prosperous lifestyle, with high levels of personal freedom.
We certainly have our dysfunctions, but millions people wouldn’t sneak or barge their way in here illegally, at great danger to themselves, if this were otherwise.

El Uro
El Uro
2 days ago

America has a well-earned right to respect itself.

steve eaton
steve eaton
2 days ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Your reply is better than the article at describing the actual situation I think.

RA Znayder
RA Znayder
3 days ago

I think there are many major fundamental flaws in the entire worldview of people like Ramaswamy and also with the historical comparisons of the author. First, Americans and people in the West should consider that their major problem is not lazy workers but lazy billionaires, charlatan oligarchs and incompetent leaders. They – not all of them but many – have not produced much since the late 70s besides financial bubbles which eventually caused the 2008 crisis. They have been on trillions of dollars of central bank welfare ever since. Because of all that free money after 2008, and also the pandemic, equity funds and assets management firms now rival the GDP of nations. And what do they do with it? Rent seeking, often literally by buying up family homes and doubling the rent. Using public money to extract even more public money. It adds nothing to the economy. Even when it does produce ‘innovative’ companies we have seen so many cases where it was just a Ponzi in hindsight. This is really the major problem.
Furthermore, the emphasis on manpower and labor basically makes no sense in the 21st century either. Labor intensive industry was already moved to Asia, so the US already has an Asian work force where production actually matters. Many big tech companies only spend a relative small part of their revenue on payroll expenses and in many of these jobs doubling the work hours does not mean doubling the production. Cutting payroll expenses even further basically seems like virtue signaling to the investors – who are always wondering if it isn’t easier to just put their central bank welfare money into one of the many Ponzi’s like real estate.
In general we should wake up to the fact that technology changed a lot. For the most part production was increased using technology in the past 50 years. Even when it comes to the army your technology makes all the difference as long if you don’t want to occupy a country. Take Israel, a tiny country of just a few million people which dominates the entire Middle East with their superior technology.

Graham Cunningham
Graham Cunningham
3 days ago

This, in its own terms, is a good essay about the MAGA/H1B controversy but it leaves one huge dimension out of account. It frames that controversy in purely economic/transactional terms…..(the disjuncture between the economic interests of American workers on the one hand and American capital on the other).
The dimension it leaves out is the huge, immigration-driving phenomenon of the bogus Social Justice religion that has been sheep-dipped into tens of millions of tertiary-educated middle class Americans….(without which the Democratic Party would have struggled to have got 20% of the vote in the last election rather than the near 50% they actually got). I discuss this missing dimension here: https://grahamcunningham.substack.com/p/globalism-vs-national-conservatism
When you’ve bought into the Social Justice Religion – DEI, post-colonial guilt-tripping, gender mind-bending and all – economic interests (anybody’s economic interests) takes a back seat and what matters is your phoney sense that you are one of the virtuous ones and not one of those terrible Right wing ‘deplorables’.

Last edited 3 days ago by Graham Cunningham
0 0
0 0
4 days ago

The abiding irony of UnHerd is that there is an UnHerd Herd. They think they are iconoclasts. Their opinions cluster tightly together.Here they come for this article.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
3 days ago
Reply to  0 0

The usual suspects will be along soon to denounce it and claim these visas don’t in fact undercut American workers but only bring in the next Einstein and Newton, despite a ton of evidence to the contrary.
Anything that doesn’t slavishly praise Trump, Musk and co must be attacked as they’re unable to accept any criticism of their preferred side

T Bone
T Bone
3 days ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

No, I think there’s plenty to criticize if you qualify your criticism.

Acknowledge that the Trump/Musk/Ramaswamy/Kennedyand Gabbard alliance has more good ideas than probably anyone else in the western world right now and maybe you have a point. These are people able to vehemently disagree and still work together.

Who do you respect Billy Bob? You criticize often but never put forth any names you think are offering better ideas. I’m no fan of Nietzsche but when he talked about Ressentiment, he was on to something.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
3 days ago
Reply to  T Bone

As I say, I’m critical of Trump for running on a pro nativist ticket then seemingly dumping the electorate and siding with his billionaire backers at the first opportunity. I’ve seen nothing to suggest those people do vehemently disagree with each other, they all merely disagree with those that put them into power.
As for who I respect, it’s not something I have for people I’ve never met (with the exception of those who have committed acts of extreme bravery, such as storming the beaches at D Day). I can agree and disagree with people and their opinions on a given subject, but respect is something completely different, and certainly not something I have for any politician

Last edited 3 days ago by Billy Bob
j watson
j watson
3 days ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I suspect that even Elon, Vivek & RJK jnr don’t agree with Gabbard’s ‘Assad is a true friend of the US’.

T Bone
T Bone
3 days ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Three of the four ran against Trump for President and the other supported his primary opponent. It’s very simple to find boatloads of evidence that they publicly disagreed with him on lots of topics.

Just acknowledge you’re not interested in being intellectually honest. Intellectual honesty requires comparison. If you can’t name a few people or even one living person that you think has better ideas than this crew than you’re just bloviating.

j watson
j watson
3 days ago
Reply to  T Bone

The problem on the ‘good ideas’ is – for ‘who’.
Trump aside at least 3 of your 4 names not part of the administration by this time next year. It’s not really an outlandish suggestion is it given Trump’s record.

J Hop
J Hop
3 days ago

This “arguement” highlights one of the reason why the left lost, and will continue to lose. Healthy debate over complex issues is seen as terminal. Nothing but total conformity and compliance is seen as viable, hence the decent into madness we see with Democrats.
No Malcolm, this was neccessary. This is what debate looks like and it’s normal and needed to keep a wide tent together and to solidify what is important and what isn’t. Note that Vivek and Elon now are understanding the problems with H1B and addressing them. They realized what a hot button issue this was and are moderating their stances. Yes, there was some ugly discourse, but the majority were not and this was a welcome advancement of the MAGA movement maturity.

Saul D
Saul D
3 days ago

H1-B will rumble on because it is also about the under-supply of technical talent as outputs from the US education system. That makes it an easy political win. Tighten up the rules on H1-B. Refocus educational expenditure to prioritise technical subjects over the humanities.
Then, remembering that Trump, Musk and Ramaswamy are all practical production people (they make things), perhaps require that all budget holding government administrators have a minimum level of maths/accounting qualifications and training in production management, so they know how to spend money efficiently and get things done. If you re-balance education, then you can start to build a government that employs more people with skills in engineering than in lawyering and nitpicking.

Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
3 days ago
Reply to  Saul D

The US education system is producing plenty of graduates in technical fields. It’s just that half of them are just average or below in talent. With H1-B visas you can get top talent from other countries who will work for far less than top-talent wages.

Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
3 days ago

This article exposes the endlessly recurring contradiction at the core of populism, whether it be of the Trump or Farage variety. The interests of the blue collar voter and the interests of the plutocrats who have managed to self-appoint themselves as political saviours are incommensurable. Vance is the only one who seems to have some awareness around this but I suspect he will soon be brushed aside by by bigger egos.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 days ago

The conflict was predictable but is hardly existential: https://alexlekas.substack.com/p/an-early-test. When Trump picked JD Vance as his running mate, he made a drug deal sorts with the likes of Peter Thiel and David Sacks. Their money and support were not unconditional; no donor gives without some expectation of a return.
The H1-B program has its own problems, among those being a misapplication of its original use that has made those visas the tech world equivalent to green cards for Mexicans. That the internal debate is playing out in the open is a good thing. GOPers are smart to avoid the cult-like mentality of Dems that forces many to stay silent where they know they shouldn’t, with the gender woo and open borders being key examples.

Satyam Nagwekar
Satyam Nagwekar
3 days ago

There’s no denying the cost arbitrage that American tech benefits from with these so-called ‘indentured workers’. From what I know, however, these are far from sweat-shop operations. The middle ground could be to introduce some limit on H1-B. Freakish curbs will simply result in off-shoring of jobs like it happened in manufacturing.

Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
3 days ago

There already are limits on H1-B visas, even by country. Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy want to lift those limits, and Steve Bannon and Lara Loomer want to eliminate the whole program.

There is still room to compromise, but the current middle ground doesn’t seem to satisfy either side.

Last edited 3 days ago by Carlos Danger
Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
3 days ago

H1BV – sounds like the next strain of bird flu

Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
3 days ago

It also sounds like the perfect employment vehicle for Trump’s own business interests.

John T. Maloney
John T. Maloney
3 days ago

H1-B will expand and prosper. It’s a red herring and rank gaslighting. It also caused me to stop reading after the first two paragraphs. I’ve hired dozens of H1-Bs, mostly MSEEs. Unlike Biden, Oberlin College Gender Studies DEI hires didn’t fit our Silicon Valley merit requirements.
Meanwhile, maybe Malcolm missed the Make America Great Again [MAGA] Victory Rally at Capital One Arena in Washington, D.C. [Capacity 20,000]. It’s on Sun, January 19, 2025, at 03:00 pm (US/Eastern); doors open at 11:00 am. As a courtesy to Mr. Kyeyune, here is the link so he may secure tickets:
https://events.t47inaugural.com/events/make-america-great-again-victory-rally-at-capital-one-arena

Jim Smith
Jim Smith
3 days ago

Nice debate here. Glad to see the MAGA voices aren’t being suppressed as they are in so many other venues where Lefties hold forth. The article? Pfffft. As many have noted it’s a manufactured tempest in a teapot, all hope and sound and fury, signifying nothing.
What’s more interesting is the projection by some of the Lefties here. You know, the ones claiming that Trump and Musk are motivated by personal interests and personal gain in the H1B debate? Riiiight.
But why be surprised? Those flimsy “personal-gain” arguments are telling and reflective of the way those people think and reason with respect to their own interests. (Why wouldn’t other people act pursuant to the same base motives?)
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Musk and Trump are risking their lives—not to mention their fortunes and their freedoms—by leading the movement to defeat corruption, heal America and make it great again. The bigger news yet is that they’re going to triumph as they lead their powerful, united, fractious, unstoppable movement to victory.

Last edited 3 days ago by Jim Smith
Roger Inkpen
Roger Inkpen
2 days ago
Reply to  Jim Smith

I hear the North Korean Ministry of Truth are recruiting…

Maverick Melonsmith
Maverick Melonsmith
3 days ago

Wasn’t Oppenheimer US born?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
3 days ago

Yes

Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
3 days ago

Maybe he meant John von Neumann, a Hungarian immigrant to the US who was a much more influential scientist than Robert Oppenheimer.

Last edited 3 days ago by Carlos Danger
El Uro
El Uro
3 days ago

Even before his return to the Oval Office, the coalition that allowed Trump to win the election is fracturing
.
Dear Malcom Kyeyune, unanimous, peaceful agreement and tranquility can only be found among the members of the Democratic Party. Or in a cemetery, which is essentially the same thing.

Sisyphus Jones
Sisyphus Jones
3 days ago

Malcom Kyeyune and the languid art of wishful thinking.

Nick Faulks
Nick Faulks
3 days ago

What a complete and utter pile of rubbish! The coalition which elected Trump will endure but, unlike within the Left, disagreements are not forbidden. The writer is unable to understand how this is possible.

Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
1 day ago

Listen: the MAGAverse is not like Nancy Pelosi’s Democratic Party where if you don’t fall in line Nancy will never talk to you again and cut you off from party reelection support forever.
MAGAverse is about manly men, and men have a Culture of Insult, where differences are settled by manly argument, or even pistols at 30 paces.

j watson
j watson
1 day ago

You touch on two important points CC. Firstly the increase in rage demonstrated in public discourse. It’s linked with the growth in social media and driven much more by the echo chamber tendency of that than some innate male trait. Previously one might have got a bit annoyed in front of the telly on one’s own. Now some folks like to share that and can. And bear in mind the link to mental health that seems correlated to the explosion in social media and smart tech.
As regards MAGA, remember the Tech Bros’s Elon and Vivek are not MAGA and never have been. It’s highly questionable whether Trump is even MAGA when it comes to it. Look which way he’s leaning now. They are Billionaires in it for themselves first and foremost but quite happy to weaponise whatever tools they can.
As regards cutting off those who don’t fall into line, what’s Trump’s record like on that?

Last edited 1 day ago by j watson
Mark epperson
Mark epperson
3 days ago

I love it! Mr. Kyeyune is probably one of the most clueless authors I have read on UnHeard. Living in Uppsalla is not exactly at the center of DC, the US, or even the world. Thank God I only had to read three paragraphs to conclude that he is clueless and lacks the intellectual curiosity to actually delve into what he uses as his facts to support his writing. But the real truth is Mr. Kyeune is just a paid hack who sold his integrity a long, long time ago for a few shekels. He writes what he to told to. I do hope he can change, he could actually enjoy a vibrant and respectful forum where disparate views are discussed. An he could learn from it, like all of us.

Simon Diggins
Simon Diggins
11 hours ago

Some very disappointing self-cannibalising by Americans in the comments below: effectively blaming one MAGA faction or other, now that the Democrats have been so comprehensively trashed.

I thought this a very insightful article not least because of its read across to U.K. and other western countries: faced with a choice between investing in education and training, either by the state and so requiring an increase in general taxation, or by companies, adding to their costs, instead, successive governments have chosen the easy path of mass immigration and ‘soma’- a generous survival (if not thriving ) benefits’ system, to keep the unemployed (and now often unemployable) masses happy. Rome had its ‘Bread and Circuses’ for its idle masses: we have the welfare state.

Last edited 11 hours ago by Simon Diggins
j watson
j watson
3 days ago

Yep gradual awakening. The Trump coalition contradictions were always going to pull it apart and this is just the start. Wait til they get onto tax code changes the Billionaires want!
The Author doesn’t quote the visceral vitriol that Musk and Bannon chucked at each other. That doesn’t get forgotten by either. Egos way too big. Loomer and Ramaswamy are next tier down but the racial tinge to both their messages shows deep fractures.
Trump needs money so he leans towards Musk. He uses H-2b to staff Mar-a-Lago too. (He’s probably got mixed up and doesn’t know the difference). But this is also just the start of the succession battle. MAGA base will realise they’ve been had and start to think v seriously about where they go next. JD the obvious but Trump will detest any indications of this.
To add to the fractures they’ll be blood on the floor this week in the House simply trying elect a Speaker and then raise the debt ceiling. Otherwise the money for all the Deportation strategy ain’t flowing. Who intervened to block Johnson’s last attempt? Yep, Elon.
However thought the Author’s historical analogies stretching things. The essentiality of slavery to the US economy was promulgated by significant number for the first 8 decades of the US. The same sort of thing was said about workers rights during the rampant capitalism of Rockefeller, Morgan, Carnegie et al. Yet the US rose to true dominance after WW2. Capitalism is stronger when it’s society’s are less unequal and everyone given a ‘fair shake’.

Last edited 3 days ago by j watson
Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

JD Vance has a lot of growing to do if he wants to win a leadership role of anything. So far his career path has been unimpressive. He has a lot of talent, but not in the things that would support a rise to the top ranks of the Republican party. He’s too much a lawyer, too much an author, too much a person who is good with words but not good at getting anything done.

j watson
j watson
3 days ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

Wouldn’t say his path unimpressive. He’s the VP of the most powerful nation in the World. Not many of us get there do we. He has the Hillbilly backstory that have some benefits. But is he heir-apparent material? We’ll see where the money moves within 6mths and then how Trump and his Sons react. Word was JD Elon’s boy and his suggestion, so that may sink him with MAGA et al.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

And why is Vance VP? Because of his connections to the venture capital world and tech billionaires like Peter Thiel, who underwrote Vance’s senatorial campaign. His selection was a business deal, first and foremost. Trump got some big donors; they’ll want something in return.

j watson
j watson
3 days ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Totally agree.
This is the point – the MAGA voters will come to realise it’s just another set of self-serving Billionaires playing the age old red meat of immigrants to gain power. And as penny drops, fractures in the Trump coalition widen.

Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

JD Vance is still young but he is 40. He was appointed vice president — he didn’t earn the office. Two years in the Senate before that didn’t qualify him for the appointment. Nor did his work as a venture capitalist or as an author.

JD Vance’s resume is thin for 40, and being vice to a strong president is unlikely to add to his leadership experience. He’s on track to be a follower rather than a leader — like Kamala Harris and Mike Pence he is not a president in waiting. He won the bucket of warm spit those two vices got.

JD Vance is a bright and talented guy, and he has shown some leadership at times, though, so he may make something out of himself. But I doubt it. We should see more signs of leadership than we do if he were presidential timber. Since the election he has been behind the scenes when he should be in them. That does not augur well for him.

Maverick Melonsmith
Maverick Melonsmith
1 day ago
Reply to  j watson

He’s the VP of the most powerful nation in the World“. So is Kamala Harris.

Lancashire Lad
Lancashire Lad
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

Your “gradual awakening” riff is so much clutching at straws. Nothing has actually happened yet, just the usual round of media hype (this article included) which you’re clinging onto with a lessening grip of credibility the more you insist on it.

At this rate, you’ll need a padded cell to retreat to when the real action starts. I’d ‘fear’ for your health, but it’s actually rather amusing.

j watson
j watson
3 days ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

You can’t be paying much attention LL. A big row between the 2 main constituents of the Trump coalition over immigration policy, and the rejection by the House of Trump’s request to extend the debt ceiling in part to fund his immigration policy, (partly down to Elon’s intervention too), aren’t nothing. Neither was the withdrawal of his pick for AG due to sexual misconduct. It’s just the start as I say. I suspect you aren’t watching closely enough.

Lancashire Lad
Lancashire Lad
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

jw, the morbid attention of the entire msm has been focused on Trump for the past decade, and you’ve swallowed the nonsense whole, whilst now appearing to be coming back for more.
Rather than an “awakening”, it’s yawn-inducing. Seriously, for the sake of your own mental health, give up the pretence that he’s a danger to anyone but those who’d do harm to the US. His record in his first term shows precisely that. I take note of the real world, not the one you’d like to exist.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
3 days ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

I think JW works for Labour Rebuttal at Millbank – or wherever it is now. He’s just trying to sow discord. The TDS is too paranoid to be believable.

j watson
j watson
3 days ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

There wasn’t much substance in that retort LL. Just sensed a bit of dawning realisation and discomfort maybe quite a bit in it. Ball not Man always better. Anyone who thinks there isn’t a major fissure here in denial.
Shipmate HB is always ‘triggered’ – although given his declared elite US Graduate education it does surprise me he’s not a bit more on top of what’s actually happening in Inauguration lead-up.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

You’re lingering far too long in the denial stage. Time to move on to acceptance. The neo-liberal party is over. It ain’t coming back.

j watson
j watson
3 days ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Global recruitment seems to be the plan for Elon and Vivek HB. Watch Elon water down the approach to China given he wants to sell and build there. Trump’s re-shoring rhetoric will remain just that. They’ve jus stumbled into showing their true colours a bit earlier than many expected. Quite apart from it being a ruse, all his tariff threats will add to uncertainty and strengthen the Dollar, making reshoring even less viable. His approach cut through with paradoxes even if being charitable.

Last edited 3 days ago by j watson
Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
3 days ago
Reply to  j watson

When did Bannon get out of prison?

j watson
j watson
3 days ago

End of Oct.