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Cousin marriage isn’t ‘unspeakable’ But what is it we're actually saying?

'The vibes continue to shift.' Sam Panthaky/AFP/Getty Images.

'The vibes continue to shift.' Sam Panthaky/AFP/Getty Images.


December 20, 2024   6 mins

The vibes continue to shift. Five minutes ago, “cousin marriage” was the punchline to a highbrow joke about the Hapsburg Jaw, or perhaps a lowbrow one about what counted as Normal for Norfolk. Now all of a sudden, the relative silence about it reveals the “unspeakable face of liberalism” according to Matthew Syed in The Times. And it seems lots of others agree with him.

Formerly in the historical deep freeze, it’s the fact that cousin marriage occurs disproportionately in British Muslim communities that has turned it into a hot button issue. Syed — himself of Pakistani extraction — first drew attention to its prevalence in an influential column last year, reminding us that where cousin marriage is practised over several generations, it exposes couples to a significantly heightened risk of bearing children with autosomal recessive disorders. Obstetricians in isolated rural communities have always known this, and now modern access to gene mapping is emphasising the risk.

But the real meat of Syed’s initial case was not medical but cultural — or at least, a bit. It lay in the claim that consanguinity increases the separation of certain ethnic and religious groups from mainstream UK values, encouraging them to be “clannish” and to become “ever more detached from the moral trajectory of wider civilisation”. Controlling patriarchs often have the upper hand in such environments, he suggested. Things like female genital mutilation and so-called honour beatings are more likely to take place there, along with corruption and a tendency towards groupthink.

And talking of the latter, in this week’s piece Syed adds a third complaint: the reticence of UK academics to discuss the problems, which he takes as yet more evidence that a culture of political correctness, timidity, and fear reigns in academia. As a result, he argues, information in the public interest, essential to the well-being of immigrant communities, has not been disseminated or even gathered properly in the first place. Researching the links between consanguinity and forced marriage, Oxford academic Dr Patrick Nash has related to Syed how he would be taken aside by colleagues and warned off the subject. And as the columnist himself looked into the available medical evidence, he says he struggled to find geneticists who would risk their careers to talk to him about it.

I have no doubt this bit is true. Still, I disagree with Syed’s assertion that the studied silence of British academics in this area reveals liberalism’s “unspeakable face”. On the contrary, I think it shows academics in quite a good light, relative to things they easily might otherwise be doing. Gender Studies lecturers — as far as I know — are not positively trying to destigmatise cousin marriage in the name of deconstructing oppressively hegemonic Western norms, which comes as something of a relief when you know their modus operandi. Equally, although it is not unusual to find philosophers arguing that physical disability is mere difference, socially constructed to be “bad” —  perhaps with the chaser that such construction maintains colonial and racist power games — few have been so bold as to go out to bat for the essential value neutrality of life-limiting haemoglobin disorders or congenital deformations. Weirdly, or perhaps not when you think about it, the job of dismissing the harm of birth defects seems to have been left to libertarian commentators, upping the ante by arguing that siblings should be free to marry too.

The best the progressive mindset can do in this respect, it seems, is to put the physical risks associated with consanguinity in context, by comparing them to risks with which the general public are apparently much more culturally comfortable. And so we find the authors of a report from a Bradford NHS Trust equating the risk of birth defects to married cousins with those of white women getting pregnant “at or after the age of 34” as a result of “choosing lifestyles embedded in liberal values such as preferring jobs, careers, bodily fitness and individualism”. Now, if you factor in cousin marriage happening generation after generation, this comparison isn’t right. But the deeper implied point is that, if girlboss white women can happily run risks to future offspring without attracting moral censure, there should be no particular problem for brown ones. Interrogating the avoidable harms of career-delayed motherhood in women is a bridge too far, it seems, even for the boldest of critics of the British way of life.

And there is another way in which Syed is wrong about the harms of cousin marriage being “unspeakable” — at least if we are being literal-minded. If it really was impossible to talk about such things, liberalised societies with high immigration such as Sweden and Denmark would not now be moving to ban cousin marriage; Robert Jenrick wouldn’t be seizing the moment to argue for the same thing in the Commons; and Syed himself would not be writing well-received columns about it. In fact, decrying cousin marriage is now apparently one of the most socially acceptable means of expressing disquiet about the legacies of immigration in liberal societies. And it might be worth examining why.

“If it really was impossible to talk about such things, liberalised societies with high immigration would not now be moving to ban cousin marriage.”

One reason seems to be that the two prongs of Syed’s argument bring unashamed social conservatives and shy sensible centrist types together in an unusual way. For those in the latter much larger category — normally wary of engaging in any discourse that would explicitly pit subjective British or Western values against those of immigrants — there is the objective shield of scientific data to protect them from anxieties about accusations of racism. As long as we are using technical-sounding words like “homozygosity” and “autosomal inheritance patterns”, and assessing quantifiable health risks to physical bodies, it seems clear that we are in the world of Rationality and Data — and who could argue with that? Equally, since physical health, in the basic sense of freedom from serious disease, is a prerequisite for doing nearly anything else, it is hard to imagine a contemporary value system that wouldn’t recognise its importance.

Equally, though, precisely because the acknowledgement of disease-free health as a basic good is foundational to most conceivable worldviews, it won’t get you very far in articulating a positive moral vision for society; and nor will it furnish much material for cultural critique. David Hume’s dictum that you can’t derive an “ought” from an “is” is not quite right: some activities are obviously bad for us and limit well-being, given facts about human nature (severely limiting contact with other humans, say; staring at screens in dark rooms for most of the day; starving yourself, or cutting off physically healthy flesh). But what is true is that the recommendations thereby produced won’t be very detailed, confined mostly to ought-nots.

Meanwhile, turning to the more explicitly cultural arguments mounted by Syed, it seems they too are designed to attract nervous initiates in the art of sticking up for a specifically British way of life. For on closer inspection they hover mostly in the realm of the abstract. As noted, there are concerns about “clannishness” and “insularity” and the negative consequences upon “integration” with the mainstream, with only limited forays into naming specific objectionable practices like forced marriage or FGM. And perhaps this degree of distance from unpleasant particulars further helps incipient social conservatives, gingerly dipping toes in fraught culture wars, to feel less like they are engaged in full-frontal confrontation.

But at the same time, this still vague critique threatens to cloud the bathwater and so lose the baby. For — as has long been argued by post-liberal thinkers and is now becoming obvious even to civilians — the choose-your-own-adventure neoliberalism we now have in much of the UK, while pretending to be value-neutral in the public realm, is actually partisan as hell. Though theoretically speaking, liberalism pretends not to favour any subjective conception of the good, in practice elements of the British “mainstream” tend to champion malignly impersonal activities (replacing skilled workers with machines, breaking up mothers’ bodies for surrogacy parts, “assisting” frail and vulnerable people to die, etc) while simultaneously undermining the sorts of institution that enrich local social life for many (small businesses, public libraries and swimming pools, pubs, church congregations etc).

Much of this wrecking is done explicitly in the name of secularism, not religion. And in this context, a bit of “clannishness” and “insularity” among dissidents goes along way — or at least, when rebranded more positively as “showing solidarity”, and “building strong moral boundaries against the prevailing neoliberal tide”. Trade unions, parishes, and grassroots political organisations can be clannish and insular too, in both good and bad ways, yet as a society we would surely be much worse off without them.

Squeamish as some recovering liberals are to criticise immigrant practices directly, there is a temptation to zoom out a bit before taking aim, hoping that some of the generalised argument then sticks to the right targets. But the danger is that valuable things are destroyed in friendly fire. Literally incestuous communities definitely pose a problem for British society, but metaphorically incestuous communities may or may not do: it all depends what exactly goes on there. If we don’t want British Muslim girls to be forced into marriages, genitally mutilated, or beaten for perceived apostasy, there are quicker and less ambiguous ways to say it.


Kathleen Stock is an UnHerd columnist and a co-director of The Lesbian Project.
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M. Jamieson
M. Jamieson
18 days ago

I thought this was a very well reasoned and interesting essay.
One of the things that always strikes me about this topic is that it really wasn’t that long ago that cousin marriages were unremarkable in many western countries, and not just among the aristocracy. My great grandparents, who were working class, were cousins, and I even know of a few cousin marriages in my parents generation, mainly in rural areas. There are lots of examples in literature as well.
So it seems odd that people are so very shocked to find it happens commonly elsewhere.

Carol Staines
Carol Staines
18 days ago
Reply to  M. Jamieson

in some cultures, where it is vital to keep land and properties within the family, where marriages are generally arranged to the advantage of all, I believe that father’s brother son (cousins) marriages are acceptable where there are no suitable alternatives.

Bernard Hill
Bernard Hill
17 days ago
Reply to  M. Jamieson

Ed West, formerly at Unherd, has a Substack blog where he has posted some very insightful essays on the positive impact which the English bans on cousin marriage, (up to six degrees no less) beginning in medieval times, on Britain’s distinctly exceptional performance culminating in the industrial revolution and Empire.

Paul Thompson
Paul Thompson
17 days ago
Reply to  Bernard Hill

Yes, this appears to have been an excuse to get out of marriages that proved unpleasant, esp in the aristocracy (who could afford divorce).

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
17 days ago
Reply to  M. Jamieson

Couple of questions:
(1) you say ‘cousin marriages’, but that is a very wide term; do you mean first cousins?
(2) you say ‘cousin marriages were unremarkable in many western countries’, but are you aware that first-cousin marriages, even if not forbidden in the general law, are not permitted in the Church of England? (I believe the same is true of the Roman Catholic Church, absent a dispensation.)

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
17 days ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

To correct myself – apologies – the Church of England historically forbade first cousin marriages (and does still forbid, amongst other relationships, marriage to niece or nephew, aunt or uncle). The Roman Catholic Church does still forbid first-cousin marriages, absent dispensation.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
17 days ago
Reply to  M. Jamieson

I don’t think science had found out about the consequences, yet.

Julian Newman
Julian Newman
14 days ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I was interested in Clare’s comment, and in this debate because of my family background on my father’s side. He himself was born in London, but on both parents’ side he was descended from a long line of Baptist nonconformists. There were three or four families characterised by mulitple cousin marriages over the generations, in a part of Gloucestershire which was relatively isolated. When my uncle drew up a “family tree” it looked more like a cat’s cradle.
The village, Nailsworth, had a large and flourishing Baptist chapel, of which several of my ancestors had been ministers, and others Deacons. There was no Church of England church until the early 20th century, so one can imagine that there was little ecclesiastical pressure against cousin marriage. One of the main families were the Clissolds, descended from French Huguenot refugees. Others were Newmans and Hartleys. But by 1900 there must have been some awareness of risks associated with cousin marriage, because my great grandfather WG Clissold (born 1838) expressly forbad his daughter Mabel Clissold (born 1876) from marrying Frank Newman (born 1878), saying that there were too many cousin marriages in the family already. To Mabel and Frank, this was devastating, and neither of them ever married. Interestingly Mabel’s elder sister (my grandmother Mary Edith Clissold) became a pioneer of birth control, which was regarded in the village as rather eccentric.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
18 days ago

Let’s just go ahead and say it! The walking on eggshells around Muslims is very annoying.

David Morley
David Morley
17 days ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I felt KS was doing just the same. A bit out of character.

Andrew F
Andrew F
15 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

Maybe she does not want to get stabbed?
Muslims don’t belong in Europe and democracy.
Clear them out.

William Shaw
William Shaw
17 days ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Perhaps we should just face facts and accept that Islam is incompatible with western liberal values.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
17 days ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Incompatible with liberal values, or tolerance of other religions or atheists, or not killing people because they’re gay, or democracy…

B Emery
B Emery
17 days ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Western Liberal values being freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
You can’t value western liberalism then single out a religion as incompatible with those values.
Some branches of the Christian church are far from perfect. The church of England has recently been turned out for covering up decades of child abuse.

BetterDays
BetterDays
17 days ago
Reply to  B Emery

For most of us with faculty of common sense, western liberalism does not mean tolerating any ideology or cultural no matter how backwards. That would clearly be ridiculous. It means tolerating other cultures insofar as they don’t conflict with our own fundamental values. Islamic culture obviously does so it should obviously not be welcomed.

B Emery
B Emery
16 days ago
Reply to  BetterDays

‘It means tolerating other cultures insofar as they don’t conflict with our own fundamental values’

Who’s values? Yours, or mine or the person next door?
What are your fundamental values?

In what way does Islam, an Abrahamic faith similar to Christianity and Judaism conflict with your values or British law, which is based in Christian teachings?

For your information, from google:

The Torah: Also known as the Old Testament, this is sacred to both Jews and Christians.
The Gospels: Shared by Christianity and Islam, these are the recollections of Jesus’s teachings.
The first five books of the Old Testament: Shared by Christianity and Islam

The Bible and Quran interpret some stories differently, but the lesson of obedience and faith is the same.

Are you aware that Christianity has its roots in the middle east.

‘western liberalism does not mean tolerating any ideology or cultural no matter how backwards.’

Western liberalism is surely based on freedom of speech and freedom of religion with order implemented by the state which maintains the law.
So it is a system where people live within the confines of the state and state law, but where they are free to speak and practice whichever religion they choose, providing they don’t break state law.

BetterDays
BetterDays
16 days ago
Reply to  B Emery

Mental gymnastics.
Shared scripture and geographical roots between Islam and any other religion is irrelevant. What’s relevant is that, in 2024, Islamic culture is backwards and inferior.
We are able to make commons sense decisions regarding those we welcome and those we do not. We either protect basic freedoms by exercising this common sense, or we hammer another nail into their coffin.

B Emery
B Emery
16 days ago
Reply to  BetterDays

Shared scripture is not irrelevant. Britains laws are based on Christian principles. In what ways are the principles of Islam different?
Basic freedoms are freedom of speech and freedom of religion. How on earth are you going to protect those freedoms by taking them away from sections of society you have decided are ‘backwards and inferior’.
Please explain how Islam is backward and inferior.
Please explain why you feel you have the right to judge millions of Muslims as a group, rather than as individuals. Surely this approach contradicts western values, like freedom of the individual?
Do you have a superiority complex?

BetterDays
BetterDays
16 days ago
Reply to  B Emery

Spoken like a true sophist apologist for Islam.
I’m interested in what Muslims think, say and do. In the real world. In 2024.
You protect these freedoms by not permitting people who don’t share your enthusiasm for them to become residents and citizens of your country in the first place.
‘Please explain how Islam is backward and inferior.’ Is this a joke question? I’ll point you in the right direction: go to Pakistan and see how the principles of free speech and freedom of religion are going there. While your at it you can check on women’s rights, gay rights, human rights, freedom to dress how you like, eat what you like…
I make a judgement about Islamic culture based on verifiable facts pertaining to that culture. The only contradiction to be faced here is by liberal absolutists who will eat their own, believing so strongly in these freedoms that they welcome people who’s presence will erode these very freedoms!
They also choose to conveniently ignore the freedom of those of us who already live in the UK to determine whether or not we wish our country to be more or less Islamic.
‘Do you have a superiority complex?‘ No, I’m totally secure in the knowledge that my culture is superior to Islamic culture.

B Emery
B Emery
16 days ago
Reply to  BetterDays

You cannot protect peoples freedom by taking it away from certain groups of people that you, as an individual, have decided don’t suit your superiority complex.

I think it would be fair to say a number of Muslims in this country came to live here actually because they do value freedom of speech and freedom of religion and in some instances moved here to escape exactly the kind of draconian persecution you are suggesting.

‘Is this a joke question? I’ll point you in the right direction: go to Pakistan and see how the principles of free speech and freedom of religion are going there’

No it is a reasonable question in the context of the discussion we are having. Wouldn’t it be fair to say that a number of Pakistani Muslims in this country choose to live here instead because these values are not always upheld in Pakistan and because they value freedom of speech and freedom of religion? Wouldn’t it be fair to say that they may even appreciate these values more than your average British citizen because they are aware of the consequences and problems that arise when these values are not upheld?

‘They also choose to conveniently ignore the freedom of those of us who already live in the UK to determine whether or not we wish our country to be more or less Islamic’

In what way have Muslims in Britain directly affected your personal right to freedom?

BetterDays
BetterDays
16 days ago
Reply to  B Emery

That’s the worst come back yet Emery. Every one of your points is a strawman.
#sophistsforislam

B Emery
B Emery
16 days ago
Reply to  BetterDays

Sophist:

Sophists believed that there is no absolute truth, and that multiple points of view can be valid at the same time. They viewed truth and morality as a matter of interpretation.

I believe in freedom of religion and freedom of speech. That isn’t really sophistry I don’t think.
In fact surely you are viewing morality and truth as a matter for your own interpretation by judging Muslims as a collective group as morally inferior to yourself and by judging Islam as inferior instead of considering the absolute truths.
The absolute truths being that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all Abrahamic religions with shared views and in some instances shared history.
I’m not really sure what I am, finding an absolute truth is in fact very, very, very difficult. You will not find truth in anything until you can consider all the facets of an argument without prejudice and until you understand that balance in an argument is very important when trying to find an absolute truth.
You will not find an absolute truth by condemning a centuries old religion, with millions and millions of followers globally, in the sweeping way you have done. What you are saying is simplistic, ignorant and not very philosophical at all.
Surely religion is a journey taken in the search/ pursuit for absolute truths, and people that dedicate their life to that should be celebrated, not slandered as inferior and backwards. Surely anybody that takes western liberal values seriously understands that they are based in the Abrahamic faiths, so is much of western state law. This is the truth. So I ask you again, how are your rights as a British citizen being infringed by Islam?
By removing some peoples rights to practice religion freely you would be removing far more freedoms than Muslims have ever removed from you.

BetterDays
BetterDays
15 days ago
Reply to  B Emery

Sophistry: the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.
Strawman: a logical fallacy that attempts to distract from the original topic by presenting a distorted version of the other side’s position. The goal is to make it seem like the other side’s position has been refuted.

Andrew F
Andrew F
15 days ago
Reply to  B Emery

Why do not your clear of to some Islamist shithole of your choosing?
We are sick and tired of some Muslim savages telling us what we need to accept in the West.
Every Muslim country is a shithole, unless they have oil.
But Muslim morons were seating on oil for centuries till Europeans told them it might be useful.
I am happy for Muslim morons to do what they want in their countries.
I just don’t want them in the West.
Soon they will learn the lesson.
My bet is in less than 20 years.

Andrew F
Andrew F
15 days ago
Reply to  B Emery

You just disgust me.
Coming with rubbish like this after people were killed in German Christmas Market?
I personally don’t care about Muslim savages.
I just don’t won’t them in the West.
Why do they come here?
To sponge from us.
They contribute nothing to humanity, no music, no literature no science, no technology.

Norfolk Sceptic
Norfolk Sceptic
15 days ago
Reply to  Andrew F

And no good sense of humour.

Richard Ross
Richard Ross
16 days ago
Reply to  B Emery

There are too many lies and too much lazy thinking in B’s comment above to answer directly, but it’s enough to say that only Islam claims to share the Abrahamic heritage, and that only insofar as it does not disagree with Mohammed’s writings, which Christianity and Judaism DO in every area.
The “lesson of obedience and faith” is that it matters very much *who* we are obedient to and have faith in. Obedience and faith, in themselves are of no value. The Allah of the Koran is not the Yahweh of the Bible.

B Emery
B Emery
16 days ago
Reply to  Richard Ross

‘The “lesson of obedience and faith” is that it matters very much *who* we are obedient to and have faith in:’

In Britain we are ruled by the state and state law. So that is really what British citizens have to obey. To ensure democracy is balanced and represents all the people in Britain freedom of speech and freedom of religion must be allowed.
Nobody is forcing you to take up Islam are they?
Who is asking British citizens to collectively take up Islam?
What pressure is there in parliament to adopt Islamic law?
The monarchy is the head of the church, are the royal family pressuring people to take up Islam?

Richard Ross
Richard Ross
10 days ago
Reply to  B Emery

From pollingreportuk: 40% of Brit Muslims want sharia law in the UK. And you don’t think that will have any effect on British society?
12% of British Muslims thought it was right for “demonstrators to carry placards calling for the killing of those who insult Islam”. 13% said it was right “to exercise violence against those who are deemed by religious leaders to have insulted them”.
But sure, everyone’s entitled to an opinion, right? Name a majority-Muslim country that you would like to live in. Especially as a woman, a Christian, a Hindu.

Bird
Bird
16 days ago
Reply to  B Emery

Yes you can!
You are talking about the universal commodity of human Behaviour, a far cry different than moral/value and belief.

B Emery
B Emery
16 days ago
Reply to  Bird

No you can’t.
I’m saying that Britain is governed by the state, and state law.
Our democracy is founded on the principles of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, people are free to speak and practice whichever religion they choose, provided it doesn’t break state law.
Your arguments are abstract and completely irrelevant.

Andrew F
Andrew F
15 days ago
Reply to  B Emery

Utter nonsense.
There is no freedom for enemies of freedom.
Islam is incompatible with democracy and Western values (and I accept there might be dispute about it).
There is not a single example of Muslim country allowing equal rights to non Muslims.
Muslims need to be cleared out of the West.

Norfolk Sceptic
Norfolk Sceptic
15 days ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Muslims don’t accept Jesus as the Son of God, and they don’t understand the Trinity, the Three in One, and the consequences that the Wet have utilised

And they are taught that the Abrahamic religions improved on each succession, until Islam, which is then supposed to be Perfect!

Yet Islamic countries are the most dysfunctional, until the West provides them with the fruits of their labours. It’s still ‘work in progress’, but it’s still better than 7th century perfection.

Micael Gustavsson
Micael Gustavsson
17 days ago
Reply to  William Shaw

I don’t think there are any Islamic dogma that makes cousin marriages necessary. Two out of 4 Sunni muslim sharia traditions (Shafi’i and Hanbali) discourage it.

Kiddo Cook
Kiddo Cook
17 days ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Really, only “very annoying?”

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
17 days ago
Reply to  Kiddo Cook

Irony and understatement.

Madas A. Hatter
Madas A. Hatter
18 days ago

The hand of the Christian church has played an interesting role here. In early Christianity cousin marriages were forbidden. The mediaeval and early modern church progressively loosened those strictures under pressure from the powerful of Christendom who wanted to legitimise it as a way of consolidating land and property within extended noble families.
The CoE should be speaking up about this. It is, after all, the reformed church.
Don’t hold your breath.

Andrew F
Andrew F
15 days ago

Great post.
We know what happened to Hubsburgs and inbreds of uk Royal Family with bulging eyes?

Nathan Sapio
Nathan Sapio
17 days ago

“If we don’t want British Muslim girls to be forced into marriages, genitally mutilated, or beaten for perceived apostasy, there are quicker and less ambiguous ways to say it.”

If you’re willing to drink your own medicine, then just remove the “if” from your own sentence. Be the change, etc…

Lancashire Lad
Lancashire Lad
17 days ago
Reply to  Nathan Sapio

Yes, i agree. Just a touch too philosophical from KS on this occasion, although at least she’s taking on the subject.

This shouldn’t be about cultural issues or racism, but simple human thriving. The reasons for cousin marriage derive from economic and social conditions in third world village or small town communities.

Presumably, those immigrants who still practise it moved to the UK for better economic and social chances in life. It seems to be a cultural practice rather than a religious one, although no doubt enforced by the strictures of religious ‘authority’.

William Amos
William Amos
17 days ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

The intrusion of the state into the marriage customs of its minority citizens is a very serious bridge to cross. Which is why it has rightly been left a grey area among all the other minorities where practices diverge from the historic norm – West Africans, Orthodox Jews, Romany Gypsies, East Anglians (I jest) Etc.
We can’t behave as if this is simply an anomaly that has been ‘lost in translation’ somehow, like spitting in the street or talking on your mobile phone on the bus. It is the most important decision in life for many people.
People who resent Muslims seem willing to enlist and approve any tool the Total State can wield – never pausing to imagine that they create powers which can be used indiscriminately. If I can venture a prediction, a law of this sort would not prevent even one ‘informal’ or Shariah cousin marriage – but It would certainly be a powerful new tool in the hands of the Liberal-Progressive monolith to control who can and cant have children. Particularly when the idea of ‘harm’ is now so infinitely elastic.
In an era where the State happily permits paid surrogacy and where the womb-for-hire racket sees children taken from their natal mothers and birth and trafficked to whichever combination of carers is able to stump up the cash – I don’t for a moment believe the state can be trusted as a non-ideological arbiter of the ‘best interests of the child’.

David Morley
David Morley
17 days ago
Reply to  William Amos

Honestly, I think this is just the slippery slope fallacy. We need to look at all of these issues on their own merits. My views on these issues are probably close to your own – I just don’t buy the argument that if we ban one, we must allow or ban the others.

William Amos
William Amos
17 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

Personally, I have yet to encounter a single sphere in which ‘the slippery slope’ has proved to be a fallacy – least of all when it comes to state power in Britain.

David Morley
David Morley
17 days ago
Reply to  William Amos

In hindsight yes – because in hindsight you can join up the dots to make a slope.

As for predictive power: not really.

William Amos
William Amos
17 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

To adapt an old gag, “That would be a Epistemological issue Father”

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
17 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

How many cases of “hindsight” before one can talk of foreseeable consequences?

David Morley
David Morley
17 days ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

I don’t know. How seriously would you take a fortune teller who saw it all coming – but only afterwards.

Oliver Wright
Oliver Wright
17 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

The real fallacy is the notion that the slippery slope is a fallacy.

JOHN B
JOHN B
17 days ago
Reply to  William Amos

Spot on. If you cannot accept other cultures as they are then don’t pretend to be in favour of multi culturalism as most liberals pretend to be. At least tell the truth that you are a soft supremacist who ultimately views other cultures as being in need of Westernised

William Amos
William Amos
17 days ago
Reply to  JOHN B

It is sad to see conservatives do-the-running for the Liberal Monolith on issues like this simply because they are ‘aimed’ at Muslims.
The same sleight of hand is performed with the harrowing case of Sara Sharif. The awful unfathomable cruelty of two wicked individuals will be used to do what? Reform the administrative state? Examine the conscience of the nation? punish the wrongdoer? No – it is being set up to limit home education, often the only refuge for Christian or conservative parents fleeing Babylon.
And because it is ostensibly floated in the context of an ‘Islamic incident’ those who ‘should know better’ among conservatives pile in.
Because, at root, conservatives are bad at ‘playing’ politics or even recognising when it is being played
The same not long ago with Shamima Begum. The powers to remove citizenship will be used on someone like Tommy Robinson long before they are used on someone like Anjem Choudary.
And yet fools still rush in…
Decent, loyal, entrepreneurial, family focused, law abiding Muslims have far more in common with God-fearing family-facing conservatives than either do with the Liberal Monolith.
Whoever can square the political circle on that one could be the electoral Kwisatz Haderach in Britain.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
17 days ago
Reply to  William Amos

Great comment. Thanks.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
17 days ago
Reply to  William Amos

‘Conservatives’ and those opposing Islamisation should remember that many Muslim immigrants came in order to escape the repressive Immanocracy back home. The sad thing is that when they got here they found that the British authorities ‘reached out’ to those same Immanic types as ‘community representatives’ rather than enforce local laws objectively. Now those same cowardly forces are contemplating interference in their family lives in the vain hope of achieving by stealth what they feared to do by direct means, thus potentially driving peaceful Muslims into the hands of the defenders of the Sharia.

denz
denz
17 days ago
Reply to  Martin Smith

The BBC used to trot out Anjem Choudhury at every possible opportunity to be the voice of the muslims

Andrew F
Andrew F
15 days ago
Reply to  Martin Smith

Naive and delusional.
There is no need for Muslims in the West.
They did not escape anything.
They are benefit scroungers.
They can take their disgusting customs back to Muslim shitholes they came from.

Andrew F
Andrew F
15 days ago
Reply to  William Amos

You might be right about overreach of the State.
But comparing Tommy Robinson to Islamic State parasite like Begum is a sick joke.
For a start TR name is of the West whereas Begum is not.
She betrayed uk, who gave her shelter, to participate in murder of British citizens.

Barry Dank
Barry Dank
17 days ago
Reply to  JOHN B

I know of no person who accepts other cultures as well as their own as they are. Critiques of self and others allow for the possibility of.change. The inability to critique self and others is indicative of the internalization of authoritarianism.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
17 days ago
Reply to  William Amos

“East Anglians (I jest) Etc.” As an East Anglian I could register a non-crime hate incident based on this tired old joke. That’s the world we live in FFS!

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
17 days ago
Reply to  Martin Smith

They’re not there to protect white people you know.

Rory Cullen
Rory Cullen
17 days ago
Reply to  William Amos

We already have laws preventing certain relatives from marrying. Extending the same band to cousin marriage isn’t some brand new intrusion into personal life by the state, anymore than prohibiting marriage between full siblings is. There is no ‘slippery slope’ to contend with, unless you think that banning sibling marriage was its self too intrusive for the state to do. Simply applying an existing law against incest to other relatives isn’t meaningfully impacting personal lives and relationships outside of a few, very specific, cultural groups that until now have commonly practiced cousin marriage in Britain.

Bird
Bird
16 days ago
Reply to  William Amos

Your right – but both are 2 separate issues. I personally believe surrogacy should be banned.
For many reasons human desire should never exceed or supplant the needs of the child.
Now lm in dangerous territory.

Andrew F
Andrew F
15 days ago
Reply to  William Amos

No it is not.
We should not allow custom of Muslim savages to be accepted in the West.
You come to Rome you do as Romans do.
If you don’t like it, go back to Muslim shithole you came from.
I am sick and tired of various ethnicities or religions turning up in Europe and telling us what we need to accept.
Just clear off.

John RC
John RC
14 days ago
Reply to  William Amos

Surely the main problem with close relatives having a child is the health risk to the child. The closer the relation, the higher the risk, further heightened if repeated often in the same family line.
Children of close cousins have a roughly doubled risk of life-affecting birth defects, so it is by default disallowed. The risk is cumulatively increased if the practice is repeated over generations. So essentially this is a matter of health not culture.
I have my doubts about personifying the State by claiming it might be “happy” about anything, but in the UK our elected representatives have given the state considerable powers and responsibilities to monitor and legislate in matters of health, presumably because the electors feel the state should take an interest in public health. This particular case is a matter of how some social conventions affect health – hence bringing those social conventions to the attention of the state.
So, this case is a question of the best interests of society as a whole. Even in our relatively open and tolerant society, concerns about health may indeed outweigh those relating to infringement of liberty, but the case has to be argued openly, either way, and opinions may change with time. That is a point of culture.

Kiddo Cook
Kiddo Cook
17 days ago
Reply to  Nathan Sapio

Agree. Remove If, then, take away ‘British.’ add a full stop before “girls.’ Delete everything after the full stop.

Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
17 days ago

Good luck to the Muslims on cousin marriage. But the real problem in plain sight is the “clannishness” and “conformity” in educated class monoculture. Non-woke persons of pallor need not apply.

Saul D
Saul D
17 days ago

In a cousin marriage a woman is married off by her father to the son of her uncle, her father’s brother. That ensures strong male control over the woman’s entire life. A consequence is that cousin marriage creates the circumstances for restricted women’s rights, and extreme views about protecting family ‘honour’.

David Morley
David Morley
17 days ago

What is remarkable is that there be so much soul searching and attempts at justification around this. Some issues are difficult to resolve, but this one really should be a case of: we don’t do that here – this is why. We just need a bit more moral courage.

Andrew Vanbarner
Andrew Vanbarner
17 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

Which will always be lacking, when anyone with brownish skin is assumed to have no moral agency, along with a perpetual victim status. As victims, how can we deny them anything? As a victim class, how could they know any better?
There’s no limit to the depravity to which the neo-proletariat (Muslims, women, the LGBT) may sink, if they’re permitted nearly everything, and the rest of us must give tacit permission. Abortions, grooming gangs, sex changes, knife crime, theft, violence – cousin marriage seems almost less repulsive a practice by comparison.
The more serious offense, it seems, is to object, which tars one with of the many labels for the hateful, assuming one is in the oppressor class. Then the state holds little back, in the way of punishment.
We aren’t at all asserting any moral courage, but instead moral cowardice, masquerading as a sort of modern virtue.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
17 days ago

“The depravity of women”?!

Kiddo Cook
Kiddo Cook
17 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

Haha! More moral courage after 50yrs of gutless fawning and idolatry of Muslims and tbh any others except us. DEI, non crime hate incidents and removal of free speech, BBC bias and positive discrimination are all there to hold the lid on a ship that’s ready to blow……

Barry Dank
Barry Dank
17 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

Yes, we need more moral courage. If we had said courage, we would be distressed that no one on this forum is or was married to a cousin. I would love to hear them speak for themselves and see how they deal with our critiques.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
17 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

Exactly.

Andrew F
Andrew F
15 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

Yes, allowing savages into the West to carry on their disgusting customs was always bad idea.
Remigration is the solution to most West problems.

Kiddo Cook
Kiddo Cook
15 days ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Boom

Chris Whybrow
Chris Whybrow
17 days ago

It’s not particularly a ‘Muslim thing’. Cousin marriage does occur in Iran and the Arab states (probably Turkey as well) but it’s nowhere near as common as it is in Pakistan. It’s also quite prevalent in the Traveller community.

Ian Denno
Ian Denno
17 days ago
Reply to  Chris Whybrow

Indeed, and it happens in other religions in those countries too, including Christianity.

Paul Thompson
Paul Thompson
17 days ago

My grandparents were 1st cousins 1x removed – he was the son of her grandfather. There are a number of pathologies that I look out for, in particular colon cancer susceptibility.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
17 days ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

You’d have to watch out for that anyway if it’s in one’s family.

JOHN B
JOHN B
17 days ago

If you are a liberal in favour of immigration and multiculturalism then you must accept its logical conclusions of which cousin marriage is just one. You cannot as a liberal dictate to people about the wrongs of their culture relative to yours. And this is why the liberal position on immigration is a fundamental contradiction. Most liberals cannot, in the end, accept/tolerate the cultures they bring in but hide from that by dressing up this lack of tolerance in the clothes of human/women/gay rights which is just another colonial mindset. Much fairer to just maintain one’s border all along. 

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
17 days ago
Reply to  JOHN B

I claim to be a common-sense, liberal, atheist. I abhor all religions for many reasons. It’s possible to be liberal and not woke. “Non-liberals” should be careful not to lump us all together and throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Lewis Eliot
Lewis Eliot
17 days ago

According to the Table of Kindred and Affinity on page 714 of my Book of Common Prayer, it’s ‘forbidden by the Church of England to marry altogether” …

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
17 days ago

As ever, there are wheels within wheels. It isn’t JUST first cousin marriage over successive generations which is the problem.

The successive importation of spouses by established immigrants contributes substantially to the establishment and growth of migrant enclaves which never integrate, not least because they don’t wish to.

FGM was largely unknown in this country, forty or fifty years ago. Somali, Turkish and Albanian drug gangs conduct open warfare in our streets. Vietnamese drug farmers operate from sub-let houses.

A thick, choking pall of silence hangs over all this. LA LA LA WE CANT HEAR YOU, cry the bleeding heart Fsbian soft left useful idiots, in massed chorus.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
17 days ago

Slowly … Slowly … Slowly they’re starting to say it out loud – at first with lengthy circumlocution, as in this article or Syed’s. Question is: do we have the time or the patience to wait for them to get to the conclusion that the rest of us reached years ago: multiculturalism is a disaster and the policies must be reversed.

JOHN B
JOHN B
17 days ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

it is also how to win an immigration argument with a liberal because they very quickly paint themselves into the position of a colonialist improving the natives

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
17 days ago

The occasional consanguinious marriage is not really a problem. Even Charles Darwin wed his cousin. But doing it generation after generation creates problems, just look at the aristocracy! Nevertheless outlawing something that has never been illegal just to pick on an immigrant community is bigoted. Personally I am opposed to the increasing Islamisation of Britain and Europe, but it seems that for some, perhaps many, who cheer open borders and diversity, but are now getting cold feet on this particular aspect, must now disguise their disquiet behind, so to speak, a veil. If they are so confident in the strength of liberal culture to absorb all kinds why do they feel the need to pick on kissing cousins?

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
17 days ago
Reply to  Martin Smith

These people backed themselves into a corner by pronouncing anyone who opposed unfettered immigration as guilty of societal isms and phobias. Reality provided a cold wakeup but they cannot admit error, so here we are.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
17 days ago

Cousin marriage is fundamental to Protestant England. As Richard Holden pointed out in the House of Commons, the legality of marriage between first cousins is a product of the Reformation. Its prevalence until the First World War, and as recently as that, was a badge of English Protestant honour, since Henry VIII had legalised it when he had wanted to marry Catherine Howard, who was Anne Boleyn’s cousin. Until then, the Late Roman ban on marriage to the fourth degree of consanguinity had obtained, extended to affinity because in marriage, “the two shall become one flesh.” Catholic Canon Law has therefore always banned cousin marriage, at one time to the seventh degree, although with possibilities of dispensation since the ban was not in the Bible. Such dispensations did not do the Hapsburgs any good. William and Mary never had children, but the intention was that they would. And they were first cousins whose marriage would not ordinarily have been possible in the Catholic Church, making such marriages the mark of Protestant identity that they were in the eighteenth and the long nineteenth centuries, including between Queen Victoria and Prince Albert.

Brian Doyle
Brian Doyle
17 days ago

I speak entirely as a Geneticist with a 1st class Hons degree .
Progeny resulting from cousins breeding can but only lead to the weakening of the gene pool of any particular ethnic group who as a norm do so
The more such breeding continues
Then as each generation continues
With this then the pace at which the detrimental effect upon the gene pool begins to rise expodentially
But of much more serious concern is that The pool ” of good Genes ‘
Deplete and the more such breeding continues then possibly
Really important and good Genes
Are in dire danger of being Lost
Such is a simple case of facts and Mathematics
Nothing whatsoever to do with
Morals or Philosophy
Furthermore the Western norm in procreation of delaying such to the breeding female delaying reproduction till later years slowly but surely produces the same effects
Because your Genetic code is fixed at conception and if you consider such as being a rubber stamp
And after each menstrual cycle then that rubber stamp has been deployed again and again
So by default the more the rubber stamp is used then the Likiehood
Of damage to the original one and only template increase every time the stamp used
Obviously the more the stamp used
The chance of resultant damages
Increase
And if you take into consideration of Modern civilisation and the prelavence of Carcinogenic chemicals in the food chain and environment with Mutagenic capacity to alter your Reproductive genetic code then such only adds to the inherent risks associated with delayed reproduction and the survival of the species

Ken Ferguson
Ken Ferguson
17 days ago

The problem here is not multiculturalism but cultural relativism.
The notion that an assessment of the value of a culture can not be made by reference to rational or scientific norms (because those are values prized in our own culture) is wrong headed.
The product of a symphony orchestra can not be seen as superior to bongo drum music because all cultures must have equivalence. So, for the cultural relativist, the fact that the product of first cousin marriages has a greater incidence of disablement can not be seen as a “bad thing”.
Yet we know it is…..

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
17 days ago

KS is a little late to this issue. It’s time we all rewatched the 2010 Dispatches documentary.
https://youtu.be/NkxuKe2wOMs?feature=shared
It caused a stir at the time but was quickly forgotten.
This is a scandal. Birmingham Children’s Hospital has a whole ward devoted to severely disabled children from consanguineous marriages. Many of these children lead lives of appalling suffering. Parents continue to produce disabled children despite being warned of the high risk of a repeat performance.
Of course, the children bring generous taxpayer-funded benefits to the family. Each one will often qualify for the Enhanced Mobility element of PIP, which brings with it entitlement to a free car from the Motability Scheme. Since the mothers are rarely allowed out, let alone allowed to learn to drive, these cars are distributed around the extended family. Who needs to work if you’ve got three or four children drawing benefits?
This is a child abuse issue. It’s time we all grasped the multicultural nettle.

John Tyler
John Tyler
17 days ago

KS fan, but this is unusually over-philosophical. As she said at the end of her piece, “There are easier ways to say it.”

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
17 days ago

About those slopes that I’m told really are not slippery….. Until quite recently, the West defined marriage by three components: it involved 1) two people, 2) of the opposite sex, who were 3) unrelated. When one of those three is declared a dead letter, don’t act shocked that the footing beneath the other two becomes shaky.

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
17 days ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

You raise a very interesting point. If perchance cousin marriage was prohibited, would it apply to same sex marriage where the couple can’t produce children? If it did, even though there is no good reason, would that be seen as discriminatory? Oh what a tangled web we weave ….

philip kern
philip kern
16 days ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Indeed. How can you give away the meaning of marriage and then complain when others do it differently? And if its defined/accepted under Sharia law, then how can the state have any input into its beginning, middle, or end?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
17 days ago

Honour beatings? What about all the honor killings, in Europe as well as the home countries. Disobedient sisters and daughters who get their throats cut and no one in those communities gives it a second thought.
The goal they have isn’t to assimilate and prosper. Their goal is to take over. The EU as one big no-go zone. It’s a stated goal when speaking not in English.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
17 days ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

All religious cults want to take over.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
17 days ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

This definitely wins first prize in the village idiot competition.

Madli Kleingeld
Madli Kleingeld
17 days ago

Lot of nonsense…WOKENESS prevails, thousands of these backward people need to be cared for ever…

David Yetter
David Yetter
17 days ago

Well, as an Orthodox Christian, I certainly don’t approve of first cousin marriage. Our canons forbid marriage within seven degrees of consanguinity (with kinship reconned both biologically and via godparent-godchild relationships), and first cousins are four degrees apart.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
17 days ago

This article demonstrates the limitations of philosophical analysis. Here’s a simpler approach: (a) Cousin marriage is a thoroughly bad thing for about five different reasons. (b) It is becoming more prevalent in this country. (c) We can either countenance/condone/ignore it, actively discourage it, or make it illegal. That is essentially a political, not a philosophical decision.

Emma Davies
Emma Davies
16 days ago

First cousin marriage is a regressive, tribal practice that should be considered totally unacceptable. From a health perspective alone the outcomes are horrific enough to demand an end. I work in Paediatric healthcare in Luton and our caseload of children with inborn errors of metabolism or rare genetic conditions is vastly inflated, considering the size of the population. It is a well known fact this is due to first cousin marriage in the British Pakistani and Bangladeshi community. Many of these children have high medical needs and suffer difficult and short lives.
It is absolutely something we should be talking about.

jules Ritchie
jules Ritchie
16 days ago

That documentary from Despatches in 2010 should be shown again and repeated every year so that no-one can say they have not heard the warnings against cousin marriages. It is truly well presented and doesn’t cast any slur against the Pakistani community- it just tries to point out the suffering of upwards of 700 children born every year (in 2010) to parents who might have avoided those marriages and or births if given the information. A nationwide campaign should be put in place with the emphasis being to show that all communities run the same risk. Perhaps the Pakistani tradition is so many generations old that theirs is especially likely to be affected. A very disturbing doco.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkxuKe2wOMs

Malcolm Webb
Malcolm Webb
16 days ago

You have lost me here Kathleen. Making cousin marriage illegal seems very sensible on a number of fronts – including freeing young women from the grip of patriarchal family structures which should have no place in civilised society. Telling people it would be better if they didn’t marry a first cousin is indeed a good step forward towards greater honesty and understanding.
MW

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
16 days ago

Let’s just dump the abstract physical arguments for once. Firstly, this is Britain, not some colonial outpost yearning to be free from western values; so the indigenous culture should rule. The author would not be writing about this if it was a Brit in other countries complaining about their cultural stifling.
Secondly , why on earth would you want to do a t*t for tat argument between activities which will probably result in a child being born that will face life long difficulties and possibly long term pain? That’s just cruelty for the sake of making a philosophical point.
Finally, how many Pakistani and Bangladeshi women are clamouring to marry their cousins?
none that I know of. These girls are used to keep money or power within the family or tribe. They have no value in themselves .
all the arguments that the author goes through are great in an abstract philosophical discussion between academics , where you can argue anything without consequences; but when such things escape into the outside world, the effects on ordinary people are devastating.
given her own history, I would expect the author to understand this . Disappointing .

James Kirk
James Kirk
15 days ago

What is the incidence of 1. cousin marriage among white indigenous? 2. their issue being abnormal?
Are Downs and other disabled children any less an occurrence among the non consanguinous? I think we need some stats. Cousin marriage is still legal. If it’s banned, young lovers will simply shack up and carry on.
Clearly this conversation is aimed at the Muslims; the medical prognosis is well known as a bad idea. Farmers send out for “external donations” for their livestock.
There are 493 “liberal” progressives in Parliament warping everything. There’s no debate under these conditions. God’s on the side of the biggest army they said.

Nanu Mitchell
Nanu Mitchell
14 days ago

What is a picture of Hindu brides -presumably at a mass wedding – doing in this article about cousin marriage among Muslims? Hindus don’t marry cousins.

Carmel Shortall
Carmel Shortall
13 days ago

I gave up half-way through this annoyingly wooly and imprecise bit of blether. If you can’t make up your mind about what you actually want to say, don’t say it!

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
17 days ago

Her point – and she is right – is that this is not about health policy. Cousin marriage has been normal and accepted for generations and no one saw it as a problem. And in modern society a ban would not prevent cousins from having children together anyway – they could just not get a marriage certificate. The real reason is social engineering – people want to change the culture of Muslims living in Britain. That is not necessarily wrong. I suspect that the real reason for banning cousin marriage in Scandinavia is immigration policy; if you cannot marry your cousin, you cannot use your marriage to get a visa for one more person from Pakistan, or ensure that your children, grandchildren etc. remain second-generation immigrants. But if that is your policy, you should say it openly and defend it on its benefits, not use medical reasons as a pretext.

AC Harper
AC Harper
17 days ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

 Cousin marriage has been normal and accepted for generations and no one saw it as a problem.

But now through genetics and DNA testing we can see the problem. We can see the problem in the health of children in some of those cousin marriages. The frequency of problems may show up more obviously in different cultures but that’s a political problem, not a scientific issue.

MJ Reid
MJ Reid
17 days ago
Reply to  AC Harper

The elephant in the room seems to be the generational marrying of first cousins and the subsequent children born with severe learning disabilities. It is not that long ago, that these children were removed from their parents and raised by the state in asylums. Hidden from the world behind huge walls. If society wants children to enjoy their rights as citizens, and with what we know about genetic mutation, the argument to prevent generational first cousin marriage makes itself. Children of such marriages are at a much greater risk of being born intellectually and physically disabled and will have less of a life than those who are born to those who have outsider marriages. The rights of the child should be paramount.

Julie Coates
Julie Coates
17 days ago
Reply to  MJ Reid

Spot on.

Paul Thompson
Paul Thompson
17 days ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

The problems with cousin marriage have been known for a long long time. In England, a marriage closer than 4th cousins was grounds for annulment.

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
17 days ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Cousin marriage has been normal and accepted for generations and no one saw it as a problem.

Are you sure about that? (Please see my reply to M. Jamieson, for example.)

Julie Coates
Julie Coates
17 days ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

I heard a radio programme many years ago that highlighted the fact that Norway had halved the incidence of cousin marriage in their own Pakistani communities by the means of running education programmes highlighting the risks of birth defects.
We forget that for pious Muslims, whatever condition their newborn may be afflicted with is simply ‘God’s will’.
Offering education about basic biological/genetic facts is probably much more effective than banning the practice.
We westerners did indeed sometimes practice this too but it became socially unacceptable once the true cost was known.
We all now know the benefits of extending our gene pool and it’s patronising to exclude people from this knowledge.

Brian Doyle
Brian Doyle
17 days ago
Reply to  Julie Coates

Please read my posting

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
17 days ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

The problem is not cousin marriage as such (after all, didn’t Mr Collins wish to marry his cousin Elizabeth?), it’s generation after generation of first cousin marriage. Many of the resulting birth defects are horrendous and the children live appallingly painful and restricted lives. It’s child abuse.

Glynis Roache
Glynis Roache
17 days ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

As Ms Stock comments, one off cousin marriages here and there are not in the same ballpark as the genetic burden that can build up when repeating the process through generations. Repeating the process, ie deliberate inbreeding, is how various breeds of domestic animals were developed.
Inbreeding is the mating of related individuals who have one or more ancestors in common. Line-breeding is a form of inbreeding. In the world of pedigree dogs where the aim was/is to create/maintain a breed that will predictably produce offspring that look the same, there is a fine line between line-breeding and inbreeding. In truth, successful inbreeding is simply called line-breeding.
However, negative consequences resulted in several breeds. In my day in veterinary practice, we were encountering hip dysplasia in German Shepherds, progressive retinal atrophy in collies and subluxating patellas in poodles. Efforts were made to document these and the breed societies undertook to breed them out. Recently cited examples, which I looked up, include polycystic kidney disease in Persian cats (leading to kidney failure), hypertrophic cardiomyopathy in Maine c**n cats and mitral valve disease (leading to heart failure) in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. 
    Less reliable information gleaned from historical novels : inbreeding amongst aristocrats was frequently mitigated by the fact that a percentage of the babies were sired by the butler. It was hinted that sometimes this was deliberate. Of course, this is just fiction. Isn’t it? 
     On the bright side – the Thoroughbred horse (the racehorse) was developed in 17th- and 18th-century England, when native mares were crossbred and then line-bred with imported stallions of Arabian, Barb, and Turkoman breeding. It’s now the fastest ( except for the American Quarter Horse over quarter of a mile) most expensive horse in the world with an entire industry behind it and a closely guarded Stud Book. Think of this when people say that the English are just a mixture of Ancient Britons, Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings etc …
    

Satyam Nagwekar
Satyam Nagwekar
17 days ago

A bizarre take on the issue by Stock, who usually makes good arguments. To poke holes in Syed’s reasoned opinion without coherent thoughts is a fool’s errand.

Alan Moran
Alan Moran
17 days ago

Voluntary marriage between first and second cousins was common in the Irish Protestant middle class in the 18th and 19th centuries. The advantages were substantial – inter alia, people married someone whose character and background they knew well; wealth was kept in the family; it maintained the cohesion and numbers of a minority community that would be diluted by exogamy. The risk of congenital health defects to offspring was low, both statistically and relative to the advantages.

Chris J
Chris J
17 days ago
Reply to  Alan Moran

How callous of you to dismiss the terrible suffering and early deaths of children affected by this practise.
The say the risks are low is nonsense. Some families
Try reading about the experience of Aisha Khan who refused to marry her cousin after four of her siblings were seriously affected by congenital genetic defects.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
17 days ago

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I assume that most first cousin marriages lie somewhere on a spectrum between arranged and coerced.
The young people involved are not permitted the chance to meet strangers. Sometimes they’re told at a very early age who they will marry. The older people keep an iron grip on the private lives of their offspring, mostly out of an inability to accept the hazards of kismet, and let go. This would likely lead to not just clannishness, but an angry, unhappy insularity, fear of strangers and a borderline socio-pathic situation.
Which is not very conducive to an open, democratic society, is it?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
17 days ago

I wonder what goes on with Hasidic Jews, particularly that insular cult in New York.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
16 days ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

The various sects are very different. I live in Brooklyn next to a Lubavitcher neighborhood. They tend to be friendlier and more modern. Other sects are less so.
Most of the young married women seem happy with their choices and especially with their kids and all the nieces and nephews. Divorce is not forbidden.

Mark epperson
Mark epperson
17 days ago

PC at its finest! Unfortunately, it never works and innocents are always harmed. I am not sure what percentage the Muslim community population is in England but it would be a nice fact. And is this really a Jihad for the Muslims, or is it just BS to stir the pot? My gut says BS and England needs to add that to ever growing BS pot and deal with it. If you don’t you will be dealing with it sooner or later and not like the results.

Barry Dank
Barry Dank
17 days ago

In the United States marriages between cousins are “valid” marriages if they are valid where the marriage was performed AND in the state where the couple is currently living (or plans to live). Otherwise, the marriage will be deemed void by the immigration services. This applies to only first cousin marriages. Second cousin marriages are legal in the US in almost all states. What I do not know is if first cousin non-marital sexual relationships are legal, and is such considered to be incest. And in any case, assuming first cousin non- sexual relationships are consensual, there is little likelihood that they will be reported to legal authorities. And will such relationships be reported to authorities if the couple has a child and live in a state where first cousin relationships are illegal.

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
17 days ago

Missed: “the British way of life” of late is the result of many thousands of years of evolution, trials & tribulations, an astonishing human achievement, rightfully the envy of the world until woke insanity crippled it. It is absurd to assume that being backward is always a choice based on perfect information.

Few things are more infuriating about the patronising efforts of our global elites than defending people’s “right” to stay backward, to force their children into backwardness.

In the case of Australia’s Aborigines defending their right to speak Stone Age languages only spoken by a few hundred people in some cases, not to learn English, the country’s official language means being doomed for life, cementing welfare dependency & all that comes with it. It’s a crime against humanity.

steven hensley
steven hensley
16 days ago

I know that this is a literary reference, but weren’t Jane Eyre and St John Rivers first cousins?

Alan Hawkes
Alan Hawkes
16 days ago

Could I point out that Islam is not monolithic, though I accept that some would like to make it so. A bit less of the scatter-gun approach and a bit more willingness to find allies within in the Moslem communities might be more productive.

Jayceon S. Jaff
Jayceon S. Jaff
15 days ago

Cousin marriage is not, and should not be, a topic of ideological to and fro. It is a matter of biology and data science. The biology on cousin marriage is clear. The data on it has not been collected and systematically reviewed to better inform the public as well as the ideological conversation on the issue. Ideologically, the conversation becomes achingly tortuous and there can be a lot of strawmen, but scientifically the conversation can be very positive and constructive, if not definitive and conclusive.

As far as the science is concerned, cousin marriage poses a health risk for anyone regardless of their ethnic background. The potential health risks involved in consanguinous marriages is similar to other potential health risks of late-age pregnancies, heritable genetic disorders, and much more. The only difference is that cousin-marriage increases the risk, but the data on it is still not conclusive to derive definitive health analysis, or rather genomic analysis, to inform legislation that is positively conducive society.

Ideologically, Islam is problematic like any other religion or political philosophy. The only difference is that Islam has not be subjected to the rigorous, and uncharitable, criticism it ought to be subjected to in academia. For instance, we do not have a text such as The Essence of Christianity (1841) by the German Neo-Hegelian philosopher Ludwig Feuerbach. Nor do we have thinkers like Bart D. Ehrman to produce a detailed critique of the Islamic tradition (there have been in the Muslim majority part of the world but they are either assassinated in broad daylight like the Kurdish former Shi’ite cleric turned atheist Turan Dursun, put under house arrest and flight bans like Hasan bin Farhan Al-Maliki, or prosecuted and incarcerated like Islam al-Buhayri in Egypt).

The immigrants are just as ignorant of the Islanic tradition as their host countries where they gradually become naturalized. Both sides are hardly informed on the subject both ideologically and scientifically, and usually entangle these two aspects of the discussion in such an irredeemably tortuous ways that it precludes any possibility of understanding and closure on the subject that seeks it desperately, because it has social and political consequences that affects our coexistence.

H W
H W
15 days ago

According to Christopher Lasch, the state was not involved in marriage until the 1700s. Wealthy parents whose kids were running off with servants objected to ‘clandestine’ marriages by renegade priests (like the friar in Romeo and Juliet) who performed marriages without parental consent.
The state’s control of marriage has allowed the state to redefine marriage…Do we need the state to control marriage?

M To the Tea
M To the Tea
17 days ago

Muslim marriage is not civil law (no city record necessary) so you do not have statistical information to prove the point. It is interesting topic but just innuendo!

I think this is political not cultural or social. Is the genetic issues in Pakistan? The whole middle East? Rural Africa? Appalachians? Etc.

It is more for keeping capital within families than patriarch.It is broken cycle if there is more money involved in any groups.

So that should make you understand…you want to keep your culture, your capital why not allow others to do the same? So much hypocrisy, so common, it is painful! Use I wish this or that for me vs take this or that from the other! This type of mentality is deprivation and why it sounds racism or many isms! Do not react, think critically!

This topic is ick factor but I think the English should look their own history before throwing rocks.

Give it a time….it will dilute itself!

Ps: I can provide ways to eliminate using cultural vulnerability but I do not want to be moderated!

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
17 days ago
Reply to  M To the Tea

you want to keep your culture, your capital why not allow others to do the same?
How dare the natives want to keep their culture.