Jews for Palestine = Turkeys for Christmas
More seriously, this tiny group seems to be so deeply hypnotised by a messianic vision of history that it can no longer see the simple practical reality that they are supporting people who would very much like to kill them all.
For several hundred years in Palestine, the TRUE decendants of the ancient Israelites* lived in peace and harmony mostly under Ottoman rule.
* In 33AD many Jews became Messianic (accepted Jesus as the Messiah but remained Jewish, led by James the brother of Jesus). Most didn’t of course. Many became fully fledged Christians too. All 3 sects lived together to this day.
In 136AD after the failure of the Jewish revolt, the leaders of the Israelites were expelled (20% probably?) leaving 80% to toil under Roman rule.
After 638AD many Israelites converted to the new religion of Islam and from then until 1900+ all 4 religions/sects lived in peace together in what was known to the Romans and Ottomans (and natives of course) as Palestine. None of these facts is seriously disputed.
So today’s Palestinians are the true decendants of “God’s Chosen People’ or to be more accurate, in Biblical terms, ARE God’s Chosen People! The Ashkenazi Jews are no more decended from ancient Israelites than I am. They are decendants of Khasaris and converts from Paganism to Judaism with not a drop of Middle Eastern blood. That is why Milekowski changed his name to Netanyahu!
So today, the Zionists, US, UK, EU have the unenviable title, in Biblical terms, of Antichrist!
True, that the modern Zionist political movement originated in Europe, but most of the Jews living in Israel today are of North African and Middle Eastern descent, not European aka. Ashkenazi descent. They were expelled penniless from Arab countries at the establishment of the Jewish State which took them in and resettled them, something that no Arab country did for the Arab refugees who flowed in the opposite direction.
The Khazar legend is just that and has been co-opted enthusiastically by modern antisemites. However we now have DNA testing, and I can assure you that though my Jewish family hailed from Germany, we have a large Middle-Eastern component of our genes shared with people in the Arabian Peninsular, and another Italian component, a remnant from our sojourn as slaves in Rome following the Judean exile of 70 CE. And not one Khazar.
In order to be “God’s Chosen People” you need not to have forsaken his covenant, so all the Jews who stayed in Palestine after the exile and then converted to Islam, kind of forfeited their Jewish credentials in so doing. It is in fact widely known that large parts of the Arab communities in the Hebron area are in fact Jews who converted to Islam a few hundred years ago. It has never stopped them from being virulently anti-Jewish.
Right-Wing Hippie
1 month ago
The leftist commentariat is all aboard for these Jews For Palestine, but just bring up Jews For Jesus…
Rhetoric already exist silly! They are Messianic Jews, ie Jews for Jesus. Back to school for you I fear!
John Dellingby
1 month ago
The way many on the left, as well as other anti-Zionists bring up these Jews as mascots isn’t too different to the myth of certain people talking about black Confederates during the American Civil War. Sure, there would have been an extremely small and irrelevant minority, but it is in no way representative. In the same way we challenge that laughable myth, so we should challenge this one.
What’s to challenge? These people exist and their viewpoint could be relevant.
There is something to be said for people who can say, “yes these people want me dead, but I dont want to be the person I would have to be to match their barbarism”.
There’s a phrase for the view you express. It’s called “Christian Values” ..very rare these days, almost as rare as Hassidic Judaism and for similar reasons, sadly.
Rather a generalisation! I am both a Zionist and on the left as are most of my family and many of my friends.
Abe Stamm
1 month ago
Most American Jews (53%) are secular and non-practicing…and Zionist in the belief that they have ethnic roots in Israel, and that a Jewish safe haven homeland has the right to exist. Even in Israel, 45% of Jews are secular, and non-observant except for the holiest of holidays. I’m a secular American-Jew who practiced Reform Judaism until I was old enough to choose how I would express myself as a Jew in my adulthood. I’m a fully committed Zionist…but, I haven’t entered a synagogue in over 50 years.
The Neturei Karta are just one of many small sects of ultra-Orthodox Jews, a group collectively known as Haredi. Think of them as you would the Christian sect of Appalachian Pentecostals whose pastors handle poisonous snakes during services. They exist, they’re Christian…but, they’re not mainstream or openly accepted by the Christian base.
If you want to get a real sense of how the world’s Jews feel about the defense of Israel, and how they react to an existential threat, look no further than the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) reservists. After the 10/7 attacks, the government of Israel called up 287,000 reservists out of 465,000* available. These soldiers, those who didn’t currently live in Israel, flew in from all corners of the planet to serve, without hesitation. Even soldiers who had aged out of the reserves showed up for active duty.These are the noteworthy Jews, soldiers trained to defend Israel, who the mainstream media tend to underrepresent in their reporting… righteous people who deserve unbiased editorial consideration. NOTE: The United States, with a population of 332 million, only has 799,000 reservists.
Amazing information. Personally I find the bible predicted the return of the Jews after the dispersal by the Romans in 70AD. It is also predicted in the bible that in the end times all nations will be against Israel but Christ is still returning to the Mount of Olives next to Jeruasalem according to the scriptures. The Jews have to be in Israel for Christ to return not as the lamb of God but as a conquerer and judge.
George K
1 month ago
„ They are an assortment of unsavoury characters“ Did they approve killing Jews, Holocaust, pogroms, antisemitism? I need more to come to this conclusion.
On the other hand conflating Jews and Zionism is what is common between Hamas charter and Zionism.
Frank Freeman
1 month ago
There are plenty of regular Jews who are not members of weird sects who oppose the slaughter in Gaza. At the protests I have attended I have seen many people carrying signs saying “Jews against genocide” without the weird hats and ringlets, including many women.
Many Jews have been booted out of the Labour party for “anti Semitism” ie opposing Israel’s actions, including local councillors.
You seem to be trying to tell us that with the exception of a few weirdos all Jews are on board with the greatest genocide of the 21st century(so far). Are you trying to create anti Semitism?
You can be Jewish without being a Zionist, just as you can be Scottish without supporting independence or British without supporting Brexit.
I support Zionism, but I also support freedom of religious thought.
Are genocides often marked by a population that has grown over time, because I’m reasonably sure that’s not what the word means. Hamas is welcome to release the remaining hostages anytime along with ceasing its goal of exterminating a nation.
Horrible distortion. You’ll find nothing in the article suggesting that “with the exception of a few weirdos all Jews are on board with the greatest genocide of the 21st century”. Anyway, your description of what’s happening as “the greatest genocide of the 21st century” suggests you are one of the far left fools who have hoped/assumed that this tiny group of weirdos are somehow typical of Jewry and are unable to see that it is Hamas’s refusal to release the hostages and get out of Gaza that is causing what is occurring there.
Alex Lekas
1 month ago
Every group has its outliers. They are what validate the value and importance of free speech in a society. One must often see and hear ridiculous arguments to be certain that they exist. There are the self-hating white people who see every black person as a mascot or pet. There are biological women who welcome the men encroaching on their spaces. And some want to brand illegal immigrants as “newcomers” as if those folks are completely benign. If there are Queers for Palestine, it’s not hard to imagine a few Jews being in the corner of their would-be executioners, too.
What an idiotic statement! Where are the Orthodox British who are anti Britain? Please, try and be sensible! I see there are 51 others within.iyed cognitive abilities who see sense in your silly question! Oh dear..
It is obvious that you equate Palestine exclusively to Muslims. Get some grounding on the subject before attacking like an idiot.
Danny Kaye
1 month ago
The historical background of all this is that modern Zionism was a political revolution that demanded Jewish emancipation, but at the same time it was a secular revolt against traditional orthodox Judaism. Only a minority of the early Zionists were religious. The dominant ideology of the early Zionists was socialism, hence the kibbutzim as the ultimate realization of ideological Zionism.
Traditional orthodox Judaism, in contrast, held that the statelessness and powerlessness of Jews is a heavenly punishment for past sins, and that only heavenly intervention (God sending his Messiah to redeem the Jews) will lead to Jewish independence in the land of Israel. This ideology dovetailed nicely with the Christian belief that the Jewish predicament was also a punishment for a sin, namely that of killing their Messiah.
After the holocaust, most ultra-orthodox Jews came around to the realization that they can take advantage of the Jewish state while remaining ambivalent regarding its ideological basis. Only a small percentage – Neturei Karta and, to some extent, the Satmar Hassidic sect – remain adamantly opposed to the existence of a Jewish secular state, as they consider it a revolt against God’s decree of Jewish powerlessness. They think that the existence of Israel is dangerous for Jews as it angers God.
It is interesting to consider that, somewhat similarly, many progressive Jews held a view of Jewish powerlessness as bestowing them with the moral superiority of history’s ultimate victim, and they therefore may resent the existence of Israel as robbing them of that status.
Then they clearly haven’t read the Torah in which HaShem told Moses to lead the Jewish people out of slavery in Egypt & take them to the Land which he had promised us. Which he did. There is also rules in the Torah not to expose fellow Jews, or indeed non-Jews, where possible, to danger which these momzers (bastards) continually do.
Whatever God is still drawing them back religious or not. His hand is in this. Jesus is a Jew and is still referred to the Lion of Judah in Revelation.
A reasonable if perhaps overstated and surely oversimplified assertion. One point though, surely, is that 100% of Israeli Jews ARE fearful for the existence of Israel, whether God is angry or not? If I were living in Israel I would, like many thousands of joint passport holders, be getting my ass out of there ASAP!
Kirk Susong
1 month ago
“[Neturei Karta] believe, however, that such a [Jewish] state can only be established once the Messiah comes. Their bitter opposition to Israel… is rooted both in its premature nature and because it falls far short of the theocratic paradise they wish to see instituted.”
A terrible article that fails to give us much information about this strange little sect of people. The article’s primary argument appears to be: because they are few in number and say unexpected things, we should dismiss them.
I want to know why they are so vehemently anti-Zionist, and why other Jews are not. I want to understand where the differences lie, and try to evaluate for myself which is right and which is wrong. Why don’t the Neturei Karta believe a Jewish homeland will help protect Jews from the abuses so often received in the diaspora? Why do the Neturei Karta believe a Jewish homeland must come after the Messiah, rather than before? Are they consistent in the way they treat the Scriptures which demand this interpretation? Do they reconcile appearing with Islamic terrorists who conflate Zionism and Judaism?
They’re probably more consistent with their religious views than other Jews. Zionism started as entirely secular movement, paradoxically using Holy Scriptures as a proof of their right to this particular land ( I guess they treated the Bible more like a historic document to confirm their ownership).
Here’s what they’re most likely thinking.
Why don’t the Neturei Karta believe a Jewish homeland will help protect Jews from the abuses so often received in the diaspora? ( “It is God who protects/punishes us”) Why do the Neturei Karta believe a Jewish homeland must come after the Messiah, rather than before? (“Jewish homeland is a divine category, not a shwarma stand at a marketplace, named Israel” ) Are they consistent in the way they treat the Scriptures which demand this interpretation? (“Yes”. I’d add that all related to Messiah is not well articulated in Judaism, and it remains intentionally murky) Do they reconcile appearing with Islamic terrorists who conflate Zionism and Judaism? (“It’s Zionism that causes Jews troubles. No Zionism, no Arab antisemitism”)
“It’s Zionism that causes Jews troubles.” You would have to be a particularly historically ignorant Jew to believe something as obviously untrue as this. Zionism (and hence anti-Zionism) is about 150 years old. Jewish persecution in the diaspora is as old as the diaspora.
Believing that only the Messiah can institute the ‘true’ homeland would also mean there should be no Jewish neighborhoods or political associations or universities or charities. Do they believe that, too? I doubt it.
This article demands a polite interview with the leadership of this sect. Big fat UnHerd failure, IMHO.
We all deserve to be heard but I think the Islamists can use them just at the moment to make their points. Israel has made a dump into a thriving country that helps Africa learn about growing crops etc. They try and use their many skills to help the nations around them if they will have it but many won’t receive anything from them.
No, his final lines just beg the question. Doesn’t God act through humans? There’s no religion in the world that I’m aware of which thinks God only acts in supernatural ways. Where is the text which demands Jewish humiliation, subjugation and victimhood until the messiah returns? If Israel falls short of the “theocratic paradise” they desire, why aren’t they in Israel trying to change it (like many of their passionate co-religionists are doing)? These are the questions that would determine the extent to which this little sect has something to say worth listening to, or is just a bunch of jerks looking for attention.
You’re probably unaware that (even extreme) Islamists are NOT anti Jewish at all! They are anti Colonial, anti oppressor, anti massacre, anti Apartheid and anti ethnic cleansing.
Jews live happily and safely in almost every Muslim country.. I know, I worked with both in these countries. Muslims look upon Jews as their ‘cousins’..that’s why they welcomed the Jews into Palestine in the 1940s.
Extremist Unionists don’t hate Nationalists in NI (and vice versa) foe religious reasons! It’s just a shorthand for opposing POLITICAL beliefs and (on one side) the resentment of the Apartheid state it used to be, discrimination, oppression etc. and Israeli-style existential fear on the other side. Few people have much in the way of true religious fervour these days and those who do are the peacemakers because that is what their religion calls for!
Since Islam has a long and proud history of forcible religious conquest, I don’t for one minute buy that “even extreme Islamists” are merely “anti Colonial.”
If by “anti Colonial” you mean “anti Western” or “anti Christendom,” then yeah, I buy it – and that’s exactly why “even extreme Islamists” have no interest in living at peace with other religions – unless, of course, the other religions are subjected to sharia law in Muslim dominated societies. Then, perhaps, a little courtesy is shown.
So why is Israel 68% Arab and African Jews if what you say is true? Arab countries have kicked their Jewish populations out. These Jews have settled in Israel And I think you will find the Orange Order do hate Catholics otherwise they wouldnt march close to Catholic churches in otder to block out their semons. They even stop their families marrying Catbolics by arranging marriages! Not pitical at all. Simply bigoted!
Hmm… but how much longer will we say this about Google? Does it shape the answers it gives to text inquiries just as much as Gemini goes its generated images? Not sure we can trust the internet anymore…
carl taylor
1 month ago
The far left reveres this sect because of their obviously visual Jewishness. They can be pointed to to exclaim, “Look, there are even religious Jews who oppose Israel’s existence!” Their other views and associations can be conveniently brushed aside. In addition, there are, of course, plenty of Jewish socialists – many still, I expect, in the SWP, despite that grubby organisation’s downfall to little more than a lunatic fringe – who consider Israel to be a colonialist state. The article could have discussed them as well, but since they are not religious, and not as eye-catching, they don’t fulfil the far left’s PR purpose.
If Israel is not a colonialist state then probably South Africa wasn’t either. Dutch settlers didn’t acquire political control over another country as there was no country to control. Also, American colonies cannot be called “colonies” for the same reason either. Then should we dispense with the word altogether or we still want to occasionally use it to refer to a mass immigration of a particular ethnic group resulting in expulsion of the native population?
Virtually every place on earth was occupied by someone else at some point in history. So what’s the point of decrying “colonialism”? It’s like decrying the fact that humans have hair on their heads. It’s only used to obfuscate.
It’s true.. ‘just you never managed to kick them out did you? You’re probably 50% min. Norman yourself? We Irish did manage it but it took us 700 years! So sometimes it’s OK to gi back a long way.. LOL.
Now that is a very inconvenient point to raise in this nice goid colonialists (let’s forget the exterminations) platform. What did you have to do that for.. you’re upsetting them!
If they say that is too short then you can just delete the parts you wanted whether it makes sense or not through the edit button.
Eleanor Barlow
1 month ago
Every religion – as well as every political doctrine – has its lunatic fringe. It seems Judaism is no different. Neturei Karta will be the same group of people who won’t fight to defend Israel although they continue to avail themselves of its benefits, and whom Israeli governments of the past have allowed to be exempt from conscription. I think Netanyahu is in favour of removing this exemption.
I must correct you. The ultra-orthodox (“Haredi”) Jews that won’t fight to defend Israel although they avail themselves of its benefits, number in the many hundreds of thousands. These haredis will however not side with Israel’s enemies as Neturei Karta does. Netanyahu is NOT in favor of removing their exemption of conscription, because they form an essential part of his ruling coalition.
The few thousand Neturei Karta are so opposed to the existence of Israel that they do side with its enemies. On the other hand, they do not avail themselves of the services of the state, as much as possible. For example, they don’t take social security. They certainly never vote.
Mike MacCormack
1 month ago
I love this idea that you can have either moderate or extreme religious views; any religious view of the Cosmos is a set of demonstrably terrible pre-scientific guesses about Creation (there wasn’t one), Eternal Life (there isn’t any), and the existence of a God who wants humans to worship him, or else (there isn’t so he doesn’t). You can’t half believe in this stuff; to describe one sect as odder than another is feather-brained mental gymnastics. Either it’s all absolutely true or it’s a load of old cobblers. Guess what I think. I’m digging the big hats though, like giant Liquorice Allsorts.
The sane as all those with a religion. No evidence tbat any of the “fantasy” is true… No evidence of the “magic”. So why the comment? We can believe what we want as can you. Doesnt make you right and us wrong …
Dick Barrett
1 month ago
Any Jews who oppose the Zionist genocide are OK with me. If their views on the Zionist genocide are not representative of Jews generally, that can only be a source of disappointment.
J Boyd
1 month ago
Neteurei Karta’s theological view of the State of Israel is perfectly legitimate and should be respected.
The fact that they are exploited by antisemites suggests naivete but they should not be blamed for it.
Zach Farmer
1 month ago
There are extreme factions in every walk of life. The issue is journalists who present tiny minority views as an issue then morph them into apparently larger bodies in the minds of the public.
Liam O'Mahony
1 month ago
Jeez, the writer had to dig deep and ficticiously to find some dirt on this one.. despite that, most of his comments unwitting speak to the courage and conviction of these good peaceful, true Jews. It is clear he intended to smear these courageous heroes but he failed miserably didn’t he?
And when tbe Islamists come for you, you will tell them you supported them to breach ceasfires in tbe Midfle East by toruring women and girls. They will laugh at you and still do what they came for…Remember that.
Jews for Palestine = Turkeys for Christmas
More seriously, this tiny group seems to be so deeply hypnotised by a messianic vision of history that it can no longer see the simple practical reality that they are supporting people who would very much like to kill them all.
I am sure there are some tall buildings already picked out especially for them.
There are always people who think, if we just don’t make a fuss, they wont come for us.
Isn’t thar true?
For several hundred years in Palestine, the TRUE decendants of the ancient Israelites* lived in peace and harmony mostly under Ottoman rule.
* In 33AD many Jews became Messianic (accepted Jesus as the Messiah but remained Jewish, led by James the brother of Jesus). Most didn’t of course. Many became fully fledged Christians too. All 3 sects lived together to this day.
In 136AD after the failure of the Jewish revolt, the leaders of the Israelites were expelled (20% probably?) leaving 80% to toil under Roman rule.
After 638AD many Israelites converted to the new religion of Islam and from then until 1900+ all 4 religions/sects lived in peace together in what was known to the Romans and Ottomans (and natives of course) as Palestine. None of these facts is seriously disputed.
So today’s Palestinians are the true decendants of “God’s Chosen People’ or to be more accurate, in Biblical terms, ARE God’s Chosen People! The Ashkenazi Jews are no more decended from ancient Israelites than I am. They are decendants of Khasaris and converts from Paganism to Judaism with not a drop of Middle Eastern blood. That is why Milekowski changed his name to Netanyahu!
So today, the Zionists, US, UK, EU have the unenviable title, in Biblical terms, of Antichrist!
True, that the modern Zionist political movement originated in Europe, but most of the Jews living in Israel today are of North African and Middle Eastern descent, not European aka. Ashkenazi descent. They were expelled penniless from Arab countries at the establishment of the Jewish State which took them in and resettled them, something that no Arab country did for the Arab refugees who flowed in the opposite direction.
The Khazar legend is just that and has been co-opted enthusiastically by modern antisemites. However we now have DNA testing, and I can assure you that though my Jewish family hailed from Germany, we have a large Middle-Eastern component of our genes shared with people in the Arabian Peninsular, and another Italian component, a remnant from our sojourn as slaves in Rome following the Judean exile of 70 CE. And not one Khazar.
In order to be “God’s Chosen People” you need not to have forsaken his covenant, so all the Jews who stayed in Palestine after the exile and then converted to Islam, kind of forfeited their Jewish credentials in so doing. It is in fact widely known that large parts of the Arab communities in the Hebron area are in fact Jews who converted to Islam a few hundred years ago. It has never stopped them from being virulently anti-Jewish.
The leftist commentariat is all aboard for these Jews For Palestine, but just bring up Jews For Jesus…
Rhetoric already exist silly! They are Messianic Jews, ie Jews for Jesus. Back to school for you I fear!
The way many on the left, as well as other anti-Zionists bring up these Jews as mascots isn’t too different to the myth of certain people talking about black Confederates during the American Civil War. Sure, there would have been an extremely small and irrelevant minority, but it is in no way representative. In the same way we challenge that laughable myth, so we should challenge this one.
What’s to challenge? These people exist and their viewpoint could be relevant.
There is something to be said for people who can say, “yes these people want me dead, but I dont want to be the person I would have to be to match their barbarism”.
There’s a phrase for the view you express. It’s called “Christian Values” ..very rare these days, almost as rare as Hassidic Judaism and for similar reasons, sadly.
Its stronger than you surmise.
Rather a generalisation! I am both a Zionist and on the left as are most of my family and many of my friends.
Most American Jews (53%) are secular and non-practicing…and Zionist in the belief that they have ethnic roots in Israel, and that a Jewish safe haven homeland has the right to exist. Even in Israel, 45% of Jews are secular, and non-observant except for the holiest of holidays. I’m a secular American-Jew who practiced Reform Judaism until I was old enough to choose how I would express myself as a Jew in my adulthood. I’m a fully committed Zionist…but, I haven’t entered a synagogue in over 50 years.
The Neturei Karta are just one of many small sects of ultra-Orthodox Jews, a group collectively known as Haredi. Think of them as you would the Christian sect of Appalachian Pentecostals whose pastors handle poisonous snakes during services. They exist, they’re Christian…but, they’re not mainstream or openly accepted by the Christian base.
If you want to get a real sense of how the world’s Jews feel about the defense of Israel, and how they react to an existential threat, look no further than the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) reservists. After the 10/7 attacks, the government of Israel called up 287,000 reservists out of 465,000* available. These soldiers, those who didn’t currently live in Israel, flew in from all corners of the planet to serve, without hesitation. Even soldiers who had aged out of the reserves showed up for active duty.These are the noteworthy Jews, soldiers trained to defend Israel, who the mainstream media tend to underrepresent in their reporting… righteous people who deserve unbiased editorial consideration. NOTE: The United States, with a population of 332 million, only has 799,000 reservists.
Amazing information. Personally I find the bible predicted the return of the Jews after the dispersal by the Romans in 70AD. It is also predicted in the bible that in the end times all nations will be against Israel but Christ is still returning to the Mount of Olives next to Jeruasalem according to the scriptures. The Jews have to be in Israel for Christ to return not as the lamb of God but as a conquerer and judge.
„ They are an assortment of unsavoury characters“ Did they approve killing Jews, Holocaust, pogroms, antisemitism? I need more to come to this conclusion.
On the other hand conflating Jews and Zionism is what is common between Hamas charter and Zionism.
There are plenty of regular Jews who are not members of weird sects who oppose the slaughter in Gaza. At the protests I have attended I have seen many people carrying signs saying “Jews against genocide” without the weird hats and ringlets, including many women.
Many Jews have been booted out of the Labour party for “anti Semitism” ie opposing Israel’s actions, including local councillors.
You seem to be trying to tell us that with the exception of a few weirdos all Jews are on board with the greatest genocide of the 21st century(so far). Are you trying to create anti Semitism?
He’s not trying create anything, but repeating the original Zionist idea that the proper way to be Jewish is to be Zionist
You can be Jewish without being a Zionist, just as you can be Scottish without supporting independence or British without supporting Brexit.
I support Zionism, but I also support freedom of religious thought.
The Hebrew Scriptures provide a much better guide to being Jewish, both in terms of religion and of race.
Are genocides often marked by a population that has grown over time, because I’m reasonably sure that’s not what the word means. Hamas is welcome to release the remaining hostages anytime along with ceasing its goal of exterminating a nation.
Horrible distortion. You’ll find nothing in the article suggesting that “with the exception of a few weirdos all Jews are on board with the greatest genocide of the 21st century”. Anyway, your description of what’s happening as “the greatest genocide of the 21st century” suggests you are one of the far left fools who have hoped/assumed that this tiny group of weirdos are somehow typical of Jewry and are unable to see that it is Hamas’s refusal to release the hostages and get out of Gaza that is causing what is occurring there.
Every group has its outliers. They are what validate the value and importance of free speech in a society. One must often see and hear ridiculous arguments to be certain that they exist. There are the self-hating white people who see every black person as a mascot or pet. There are biological women who welcome the men encroaching on their spaces. And some want to brand illegal immigrants as “newcomers” as if those folks are completely benign. If there are Queers for Palestine, it’s not hard to imagine a few Jews being in the corner of their would-be executioners, too.
Wow, that’s a pretty twisted view of life.. How about the outliers who stood alone against Hitler’s tyranny? ..or is that different?
Where are the orthodox Muslims who are anti-Palestine? We need to hear their voice.
What an idiotic statement! Where are the Orthodox British who are anti Britain? Please, try and be sensible! I see there are 51 others within.iyed cognitive abilities who see sense in your silly question! Oh dear..
It is obvious that you equate Palestine exclusively to Muslims. Get some grounding on the subject before attacking like an idiot.
The historical background of all this is that modern Zionism was a political revolution that demanded Jewish emancipation, but at the same time it was a secular revolt against traditional orthodox Judaism. Only a minority of the early Zionists were religious. The dominant ideology of the early Zionists was socialism, hence the kibbutzim as the ultimate realization of ideological Zionism.
Traditional orthodox Judaism, in contrast, held that the statelessness and powerlessness of Jews is a heavenly punishment for past sins, and that only heavenly intervention (God sending his Messiah to redeem the Jews) will lead to Jewish independence in the land of Israel. This ideology dovetailed nicely with the Christian belief that the Jewish predicament was also a punishment for a sin, namely that of killing their Messiah.
After the holocaust, most ultra-orthodox Jews came around to the realization that they can take advantage of the Jewish state while remaining ambivalent regarding its ideological basis. Only a small percentage – Neturei Karta and, to some extent, the Satmar Hassidic sect – remain adamantly opposed to the existence of a Jewish secular state, as they consider it a revolt against God’s decree of Jewish powerlessness. They think that the existence of Israel is dangerous for Jews as it angers God.
It is interesting to consider that, somewhat similarly, many progressive Jews held a view of Jewish powerlessness as bestowing them with the moral superiority of history’s ultimate victim, and they therefore may resent the existence of Israel as robbing them of that status.
Then they clearly haven’t read the Torah in which HaShem told Moses to lead the Jewish people out of slavery in Egypt & take them to the Land which he had promised us. Which he did. There is also rules in the Torah not to expose fellow Jews, or indeed non-Jews, where possible, to danger which these momzers (bastards) continually do.
You don’t thing the Jews of Israel are exposing the non-Jews of Palestines to any danger then? Really? Are you sure?
Whatever God is still drawing them back religious or not. His hand is in this. Jesus is a Jew and is still referred to the Lion of Judah in Revelation.
Exactly, Jesus lived, preached and died as a Jew.. but an OUTLIER Jew.. that is surely the point of whole discussion is it not??
A reasonable if perhaps overstated and surely oversimplified assertion. One point though, surely, is that 100% of Israeli Jews ARE fearful for the existence of Israel, whether God is angry or not? If I were living in Israel I would, like many thousands of joint passport holders, be getting my ass out of there ASAP!
“[Neturei Karta] believe, however, that such a [Jewish] state can only be established once the Messiah comes. Their bitter opposition to Israel… is rooted both in its premature nature and because it falls far short of the theocratic paradise they wish to see instituted.”
A terrible article that fails to give us much information about this strange little sect of people. The article’s primary argument appears to be: because they are few in number and say unexpected things, we should dismiss them.
I want to know why they are so vehemently anti-Zionist, and why other Jews are not. I want to understand where the differences lie, and try to evaluate for myself which is right and which is wrong. Why don’t the Neturei Karta believe a Jewish homeland will help protect Jews from the abuses so often received in the diaspora? Why do the Neturei Karta believe a Jewish homeland must come after the Messiah, rather than before? Are they consistent in the way they treat the Scriptures which demand this interpretation? Do they reconcile appearing with Islamic terrorists who conflate Zionism and Judaism?
They’re probably more consistent with their religious views than other Jews. Zionism started as entirely secular movement, paradoxically using Holy Scriptures as a proof of their right to this particular land ( I guess they treated the Bible more like a historic document to confirm their ownership).
Here’s what they’re most likely thinking.
Why don’t the Neturei Karta believe a Jewish homeland will help protect Jews from the abuses so often received in the diaspora? ( “It is God who protects/punishes us”) Why do the Neturei Karta believe a Jewish homeland must come after the Messiah, rather than before? (“Jewish homeland is a divine category, not a shwarma stand at a marketplace, named Israel” ) Are they consistent in the way they treat the Scriptures which demand this interpretation? (“Yes”. I’d add that all related to Messiah is not well articulated in Judaism, and it remains intentionally murky) Do they reconcile appearing with Islamic terrorists who conflate Zionism and Judaism? (“It’s Zionism that causes Jews troubles. No Zionism, no Arab antisemitism”)
“It’s Zionism that causes Jews troubles.” You would have to be a particularly historically ignorant Jew to believe something as obviously untrue as this. Zionism (and hence anti-Zionism) is about 150 years old. Jewish persecution in the diaspora is as old as the diaspora.
Believing that only the Messiah can institute the ‘true’ homeland would also mean there should be no Jewish neighborhoods or political associations or universities or charities. Do they believe that, too? I doubt it.
This article demands a polite interview with the leadership of this sect. Big fat UnHerd failure, IMHO.
Any small group of people who side with those who are hell bent on their extermination honestly don’t deserve to be heard by anyone who is sane.
We all deserve to be heard but I think the Islamists can use them just at the moment to make their points. Israel has made a dump into a thriving country that helps Africa learn about growing crops etc. They try and use their many skills to help the nations around them if they will have it but many won’t receive anything from them.
But you quoted the reason. It took a while for the writer to get there but that’s a convincing reason for their behaviour
No, his final lines just beg the question. Doesn’t God act through humans? There’s no religion in the world that I’m aware of which thinks God only acts in supernatural ways. Where is the text which demands Jewish humiliation, subjugation and victimhood until the messiah returns? If Israel falls short of the “theocratic paradise” they desire, why aren’t they in Israel trying to change it (like many of their passionate co-religionists are doing)? These are the questions that would determine the extent to which this little sect has something to say worth listening to, or is just a bunch of jerks looking for attention.
You’re probably unaware that (even extreme) Islamists are NOT anti Jewish at all! They are anti Colonial, anti oppressor, anti massacre, anti Apartheid and anti ethnic cleansing.
Jews live happily and safely in almost every Muslim country.. I know, I worked with both in these countries. Muslims look upon Jews as their ‘cousins’..that’s why they welcomed the Jews into Palestine in the 1940s.
Extremist Unionists don’t hate Nationalists in NI (and vice versa) foe religious reasons! It’s just a shorthand for opposing POLITICAL beliefs and (on one side) the resentment of the Apartheid state it used to be, discrimination, oppression etc. and Israeli-style existential fear on the other side. Few people have much in the way of true religious fervour these days and those who do are the peacemakers because that is what their religion calls for!
Since Islam has a long and proud history of forcible religious conquest, I don’t for one minute buy that “even extreme Islamists” are merely “anti Colonial.”
If by “anti Colonial” you mean “anti Western” or “anti Christendom,” then yeah, I buy it – and that’s exactly why “even extreme Islamists” have no interest in living at peace with other religions – unless, of course, the other religions are subjected to sharia law in Muslim dominated societies. Then, perhaps, a little courtesy is shown.
There you go, revealing yourself to be an Islamist apologist! Why did you take such a long time? Read Quran if in any doubt…
So why is Israel 68% Arab and African Jews if what you say is true? Arab countries have kicked their Jewish populations out. These Jews have settled in Israel And I think you will find the Orange Order do hate Catholics otherwise they wouldnt march close to Catholic churches in otder to block out their semons. They even stop their families marrying Catbolics by arranging marriages! Not pitical at all. Simply bigoted!
That is what Google is for!! You have been educated about something you didnt know before, now go learn for yourself… Anything else is laziness.
Hmm… but how much longer will we say this about Google? Does it shape the answers it gives to text inquiries just as much as Gemini goes its generated images? Not sure we can trust the internet anymore…
The far left reveres this sect because of their obviously visual Jewishness. They can be pointed to to exclaim, “Look, there are even religious Jews who oppose Israel’s existence!” Their other views and associations can be conveniently brushed aside. In addition, there are, of course, plenty of Jewish socialists – many still, I expect, in the SWP, despite that grubby organisation’s downfall to little more than a lunatic fringe – who consider Israel to be a colonialist state. The article could have discussed them as well, but since they are not religious, and not as eye-catching, they don’t fulfil the far left’s PR purpose.
If Israel is not a colonialist state then probably South Africa wasn’t either. Dutch settlers didn’t acquire political control over another country as there was no country to control. Also, American colonies cannot be called “colonies” for the same reason either. Then should we dispense with the word altogether or we still want to occasionally use it to refer to a mass immigration of a particular ethnic group resulting in expulsion of the native population?
Virtually every place on earth was occupied by someone else at some point in history. So what’s the point of decrying “colonialism”? It’s like decrying the fact that humans have hair on their heads. It’s only used to obfuscate.
Yeah we are a colony of the Normans if one goes that far back.
It’s true.. ‘just you never managed to kick them out did you? You’re probably 50% min. Norman yourself? We Irish did manage it but it took us 700 years! So sometimes it’s OK to gi back a long way.. LOL.
Are you familiar with the term “gross simplification” at all? It is used mainly to OBFUSCATE.
Now that is a very inconvenient point to raise in this nice goid colonialists (let’s forget the exterminations) platform. What did you have to do that for.. you’re upsetting them!
Irrelevant to the core point.. and well referred to.inthe article.. Read it again.
is there a way to delete my own comment?
Edit
do you get a delete button? If I try to delete the text and save it, it won’t allow saying “too short”
Delete your text but leave full stop (period).
If they say that is too short then you can just delete the parts you wanted whether it makes sense or not through the edit button.
Every religion – as well as every political doctrine – has its lunatic fringe. It seems Judaism is no different. Neturei Karta will be the same group of people who won’t fight to defend Israel although they continue to avail themselves of its benefits, and whom Israeli governments of the past have allowed to be exempt from conscription. I think Netanyahu is in favour of removing this exemption.
Rightly so I think. They are surrounded by enemies and they need to do their bit.
I must correct you. The ultra-orthodox (“Haredi”) Jews that won’t fight to defend Israel although they avail themselves of its benefits, number in the many hundreds of thousands. These haredis will however not side with Israel’s enemies as Neturei Karta does. Netanyahu is NOT in favor of removing their exemption of conscription, because they form an essential part of his ruling coalition.
The few thousand Neturei Karta are so opposed to the existence of Israel that they do side with its enemies. On the other hand, they do not avail themselves of the services of the state, as much as possible. For example, they don’t take social security. They certainly never vote.
I love this idea that you can have either moderate or extreme religious views; any religious view of the Cosmos is a set of demonstrably terrible pre-scientific guesses about Creation (there wasn’t one), Eternal Life (there isn’t any), and the existence of a God who wants humans to worship him, or else (there isn’t so he doesn’t). You can’t half believe in this stuff; to describe one sect as odder than another is feather-brained mental gymnastics. Either it’s all absolutely true or it’s a load of old cobblers. Guess what I think. I’m digging the big hats though, like giant Liquorice Allsorts.
Religions have an affinity with headwear.
Turbans, bowlers, hijabs, wimples, kippas, mitres….
Not all. Christians generally do not have religious headwear.
But the ones that do tend to really go for it – bishops? Royalty? Nuns? Ku Klux Klan?
It was such a good comment that now I’m praying for the reincarnation of Christopher (an ironic name, if there ever was one…) Hitchens!
You are just stating your beliefs and have no evidence that they are true. Others believe what you don’t believe. That is how it is.
The sane as all those with a religion. No evidence tbat any of the “fantasy” is true… No evidence of the “magic”. So why the comment? We can believe what we want as can you. Doesnt make you right and us wrong …
Any Jews who oppose the Zionist genocide are OK with me. If their views on the Zionist genocide are not representative of Jews generally, that can only be a source of disappointment.
Neteurei Karta’s theological view of the State of Israel is perfectly legitimate and should be respected.
The fact that they are exploited by antisemites suggests naivete but they should not be blamed for it.
There are extreme factions in every walk of life. The issue is journalists who present tiny minority views as an issue then morph them into apparently larger bodies in the minds of the public.
Jeez, the writer had to dig deep and ficticiously to find some dirt on this one.. despite that, most of his comments unwitting speak to the courage and conviction of these good peaceful, true Jews. It is clear he intended to smear these courageous heroes but he failed miserably didn’t he?
And when tbe Islamists come for you, you will tell them you supported them to breach ceasfires in tbe Midfle East by toruring women and girls. They will laugh at you and still do what they came for…Remember that.