What happens when the fantasy of getting everything you want collides with cold, hard reality? Jane Austen’s Sense and Sensibility attempts to answer that question by plotting the love lives of two young women: the cool-headed, pragmatic Elinor Dashwood, and her feverishly emotional younger sister, Marianne. Together, the pair embody the novel’s titular struggle: of practicality versus passion, decorum versus desire, the head versus the heart (or the hormones). More recently, a pair of memoirs released in the US has made it clear that Austen’s age-old conflict is still with us.
On the sense side, there is Rob Henderson’s Troubled: the story of the author’s turbulent childhood in America’s foster care system. Removed from a drug-addicted, criminally neglectful mother, Henderson ultimately escapes the delinquency to which many of his peers succumb, to become a highly educated member of the media class. On the sensibility side, there is Molly Roden Winter’s More — in which the author, a middle-aged writer and musician who lives in upscale Brooklyn, ruminates about the ups and downs (and ins and outs) of her open marriage.
More, which was released last month, was fortuitously timed — or, possibly, the catalyst — for a surge of public interest in polyamory. The question of what form romantic and sexual commitment should take, or if it should be taken at all, has been visited and revisited countless times through the years, often in rhythm with evolving questions about how women should live, and love. Freely, perhaps — but how so? And at what cost?
The polyamory discourse, including Roden Winter’s memoir, circles these questions in much the same way Austen’s Regency-era heroines do. When Elinor Dashwood cautions her younger sister that what is pleasurable and what is proper are not always one and the same, Marianne protests that of course they are: “for we always know when we are acting wrong, and with such a conviction I could have had no pleasure.” This vaguely hedonistic notion — that if it feels good, it must be good — is echoed in the conviction of contemporary polyamorists that having multiple partners is the path to not just sexual satisfaction but a more enlightened state of being: a commitment “to the journey of the truth of my own soul”, to quote one polycule participant from a much-discussed article in The Cut. One imagines these 30-something Brooklynites confronting some poor, monogamous schmuck with the same earnest indignation that Marianne aims at her stoic sister: “Always resignation and acceptance. Always prudence and honour and duty. Elinor, where is your heart?”
If 17-year-old Marianne Dashwood had lived in contemporary Brooklyn instead of late 18th-century England, perhaps her marriage to the older, honourable Colonel Brandon would have seemed like less of a compromise: perhaps she would have ended up like the heroine of More, bed-hopping her way across the boroughs in middle age, wondering why, if this is the path to self-actualisation, she feels so damned miserable all the time. “This is supposed to be about my fun, my pleasure, my freedom,” Molly laments, after a partner stealthily removes his condom and then ghosts her immediately after sex. “How have I arrived at this point?”
More may read like a portrait of a life ruled by sensibility in the Austenite sense, but this looks very different on a frustrated mom in her forties than it does on a flighty teenager — especially given that the sensibility in this case isn’t actually the author’s, but instead belongs to her husband, Stewart, who both wants to sleep with other women and gets off on the idea of his wife schtupping other men. As other reviewers have noted, the idea of More as a memoir of sexual fulfilment à la Eat, Pray, Love is belied by Molly’s obvious unhappiness in her open marriage, which she agrees to more out of duty than desire. Polyamory is a pile of lemons from which she relentlessly makes pitcher after pitcher of barely palatable lemonade. She doesn’t want this life so much as she wants to be the kind of person who wants it, which turns out about as well as you’d expect it to. “I feel like shit,” she eventually tells her therapist. “I thought freedom was supposed to be fun.”
Meanwhile, Henderson’s Trouble puts in a good word for sense, rather than pure sensibility. His story is one of an unruly youth for whom prudence, honour, and duty were not just social graces but a path to a better life. The irony, as Henderson notes, is that he had to join the military to get the structure and stability he needed; meanwhile, people who’ve benefited from these things all their lives tend to performatively dismiss their importance.
The current vogue for polyamory is a prime example of what Henderson has termed “luxury beliefs”: the phenomenon whereby wealthy, educated progressives talk a big game in favour of prison abolition or permissive sexual norms to signal their political bona fides, safe in the knowledge that they’ll never bear the costs of the ideas they promote. His classmates at Yale, for instance, would privately acknowledge that they themselves planned to get married, have kids, and practice monogamy — but only after loudly decrying the practice as old-fashioned, outdated, and unnecessary. “We now live in a culture where affluent, educated, and well-connected people validate and affirm the behaviours, decisions, and attitudes of marginalised and deprived kids that they would never accept for themselves or their own children,” he writes.
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SubscribeI notice that all the pictures associated with the recent spate of articles on polyamory feature two men and one woman. Now, I cannot speak to any trends among modern sexual hipsters, but I can say that historically-speaking, polyandry has been far, far rarer than polygyny. The reality is that men are unlikely in the extreme to share their woman with another man; sexual jealousy, while not absent from the female portion of the species, is much more prevalent among the male half, and quite often precipitates violence, not just between the men involved but also targeting the woman. Theodore Dalrymple’s accounts of some of the female patients he saw during his tenure at an urban hospital and the violence they faced at the hands of their male partners, frequently for reasons of sexual jealousy, make for harrowing reading. As he puts it, more eloquently than I could:
Interesting that you say that.
Years ago, in my 20’s, I tended bar and lived in an apartment complex a few blocks away.
One night, my neighbor, a divorcee with whom I had been flirting, came into my bar with a girlfriend. Long story short, the three of us spent a wild night together. Honestly, the fantasy is better than the reality. Just saying. Not sorry I did it necessarily and I did have a lot of fun, but left me feeling a little weird.
Then, years later, a girlfriend of mine, divorcee, mid 40’s, asked if I would be interested in swinging. Now this kinda surprised me. She was a pretty conservative mother of 2 girls she was very protective of. A dentist and a girl scout troop leader. Took me a moment to get over being stunned and then I got up, politely said “no”, and then left. Never spoke to her again.
Interestingly, when I first went to college, I came back to my dorm room one night and found my roommate, a point guard on the school team, laying in bed naked with two girls smoking a joint. So maybe this is more common than I would think but I agree it does seem more often to involve multiple women and one man.
Weirdly I’ve always known it to be the other way, two lads going for it with one girl. Only a few examples from drunken nights growing up (and I was never invited along) but I can’t recall any of my mates getting lucky with two women
It’s no good if it happens through drink
What did the men look like?
Skanks most likely.
Why? Can pretty girls not go out, let their hair down and enjoy themselves however they see fit?
Why do you look down on those who don’t follow your seemingly rather puritan values?
Because I don’t share an atheist system of belief as perhaps you do and certainly they must, I don’t see them as harmless indulgences. Their behavior is sinful and God will sort them out.
Which passage in the bible explicitly forbids threesomes or deems them to be sinful?
I’m also led to believe that there’s no passage that explicitly forbids sex before marriage either? It was a rule largely enforced by the Church as they were the ones often left holding the baby as it were in the days before the welfare state if the father did a runner, so it was a cost saving exercise rather than anything written
“Which passage in the bible explicitly forbids threesomes or deems them to be sinful?“
Isn’t there something about not coveting your neighbour’s piece of ass? I’m sure that’s what I was told in Sunday School.
Is that a reference to donkeys?
OMG!!! Being atheist isn’t a belief. If you know something for a fact you don’t need to believe.
It’s a vaunted self-certainty, not an established fact. The existence of a power greater than ourselves is both unproven and unfalsifiable, but far from the outlandish absurdity that militant atheists claim it out to be. The tendency to believe in Something is ancient, and inborn in most human beings.
Nice touch with “OMG” though.
I agree that most humans desperately need to believe in something. I just watched in horror a documentary about the Warren Jeffs Mormon cult in Texas. I’ve seen many other documentaries on cults all over the world. But then, of course, Islam and Catholicism are also cults. I’ll get backlash for that!!
Rigid Scientism has cult-like aspects as well. Dismissing all faith or religious practice with a broad brush is an oversimplification, and a cheap shot that violates your own stated principle of non-judgmentalness.
I don’t see why it’s a cheap shot. However, I agree there are rigid atheists who are just the other side of the coin. I’m not that way and use homeopathy (unscientific) for example, to the horror of the fanatical atheists. I’m not interested in converting anyone. Whatever gets you through the night.
Amen to that.
There are two ways that a man would look at a woman that gives it up often and easily and certainly one that is into group sex.
First, she is not someone you would ever want a long term relationship with for a lot of different reasons.
Second, because she is not someone that you would want a long term relationship with, and because she sees sex as just entertainment, then the only role she can play is as a f**k buddy at best.
Complicating matters is that if the type of women that you WOULD want a long term relationship with find out that you are with the second type then they are not going to want anything to do with YOU.
I’m inclined to agree. And trust is also involved. To trust someone you have to at least know that they are able to manage their emotions and impulses, and not simply do what seems a good idea at the time.
The only thing I would add is that sometimes we have to find out the hard way. I wouldn’t want to write someone off because of a few silly mistakes when they were young. It can take girls a few encounters to realise that they are just being used, and have the self respect to learn they don’t like being treated as an object.
She did ask about the Men, not the Girls…
Certainly nothing to look at any of them, although one has got a huge chopper which is about his only redeeming feature.
They’re all settled down now though so you’ve probably missed the boat with them if that’s what you were after
Is “a chopper” what I think it is? If so I would say he would need more than that to be attractive.
It’s exactly what you think it is. If he dangles it in a pint glass it touches the bottom. Quite impressive actually, though if I ended up in a ménage à trois with him I’d feel horribly inadequate.
Hi Jimmy if you’re reading!
Do you not find it spoils the taste of your pint?
It was usually late in the night by the time this particular party trick came out so I would have probably been too drunk to notice anyway
Yikes!!! However, it’s the quality, not the quantity.
My missus says that, unfortunately for her she gets neither
That’s funny and honest. Poor wifey.
I guess it’s not the Raleigh version.
I can honestly say that I have never ever seen that and I have seen a LOT, particularly when I was tending bar.
But then, women are generally more discreet than men are, so maybe.
But then, I dunno, no guy would talk about it because SOMEBODY would want to know if he touched the other guy.
As far as I can remember it was normally something that came about last minute during the taxi home rather than being a planned goal earlier in the night.
Also I don’t remember any of the lads being embarrassed about any of that kind of thing, it was always just a funny story at the pub the next day. Maybe that’s a cultural difference between us and the Americans though I’m not sure
So there you are girls – now you all know what to do if you want to be reduced to a funny story at the pub told by a bunch of drunk blokes.
You think the women don’t gossip about any men they end up taking home after a night out? You live a very sheltered life I think
Actually I’m fully aware that some women are as bad at telling grubby stories about their exploits as some men are. None of us are saints, especially after a few drinks, but we could at least be discrete. And at least display a minimum amount of respect and self respect.
I agree. As a present-day society we need to respect ourselves and one another more on the sex front Making sex into a mere game is a huge overcorrection from the days of silence, shame, and ostracization (an reciprocal oversimplification, of course).
It’s not as if there was no cause for so-called sexual liberation or for the Women’s Movement. In about 1965, many American women (and others around the Western hemisphere) may have had to leave town in shame if they became pregnant, out of wedlock, by a man who wouldn’t step up to the plate as a father and husband. And almost no blame was likely to land on him, unless her relatives came with fists and weapons..
I know a woman who traveled to Mexico for a dangerous “back-alley” abortion in 1968, to reluctantly end a pregnancy that was the result of a rape. It wasn’t some easy choice of course. My Canadian great aunt died in the 1930s after a botched termination.
We should aim for a sensible middle ground; not just some formulaic averaging-out of two extremes, but acknowledging that there are (at least) two sides to most fraught issues.
There are no two sides to abortion. Just one of the woman who is pregnant. The rest should mind their own business.
Even once the child is viable outside the womb and people stand ready to adopt?
No moral if not legal obligation to inform the husband?
No two sides within the woman’s own mind?
You’ve lived a very sheltered life haven’t you?
Doubt if many blokes would want to know if the two lucky gents ‘got it on’ during the proceedings. Anyway, that would require a degree of contortionist skills beyond most chaps if they were engaged in a classic ‘spit roast’ scenario.
Actually “did you touch it” was usually one of the first questions asked
Really? I have to say that on the only occasion I was offered such an encounter I declined. The friend in question, like yours, was prodigiously endowed and that would have been very off putting for a start.
I did once end up crashed out on my bed with my then girlfriend and her best friend after a night on the tiles. Asking the two lasses if they were both ‘up for it’ got me slapped on both sides of my face simultaneously!
Hahaha! The slap was worth it just for the story! I love the optimism in that situation too
…
Sorry for previous comment. You are right, of course. Discreet is the correct word. I cannot edit or delete the damned thing!
Done now…
as if sexual violence didn’t exist before the 60s?
Nobody claimed that. Dalrymple talks of increase.
I think Roden-Winter is on a path to self destruction and self loathing. But, apparently, like an alcoholic or a drug addict, she keeps thinking that the next quick high is gonna solve her problems only to once again find themselves laid out in the gutter, feeling like crap, and hating themselves for having done it again.
You cannot fix what is broken inside by by quick hits of adrenaline.
You will certainly never find peace and ultimately we all seek peace with ourselves and our world. Creating chaos is not the way to get there.
There is this odd group of people out there that seem to think that having the freedom to do something means that you must do it. When, in fact, with freedom to choose comes the responsibility to choose wisely and to accept the consequences of your bad choices.
No harm in trying things out, but to keep doing it when it you didn’t enjoy it sounds a bit strange (if the article is to be believed. If people want to go swinging and they genuinely enjoy themselves then have it, it’s no business of mine but it’s not for me
I have read that swinging can reprise the limerence found early in a relationship, such that it reignites desire and bonding with ones long-term partner. I’m sure there’s other payoffs too, but it may not be quite as shallow a polyamory as that described in More.
It’s not for me either, though!
Only a certain kind of person would use a word like “limerence”.
A wonderful word. And well used. It describes a “crush” that may not be reciprocated; with all of the anxiety and excitement that might cause.
I imagine that committed couples who swing are either familiar with this, emotionally absent or not really that committed.
“If at first you don’t succeed try, try again. Then give up. There’s no point being a damn fool about it”.
Quite so
It’s everyone’s business. The cost of the sexual revolution has been the collapse of the family, declining fertility and the ever expansion of the state to play the role of father….And polyamory not about child rearing and socialization
Agreed, however technology and social media have had an enormous detrimental effect on relationships as well (The final nail in romances coffin)
“Declining fertility rates?” How has the sexual revolution done that?
By making sex recreational, it has separated sex and reproduction, sex and marriage and sex and children – and is a central reason for the age of first child advancing nearly 15 years (with all that entails in terms of unhappiness, mental health, infertility and difficult pregancies)…..and the massive increase in single parented/only-children…. If you could like chapter and verse I can recommend dozens of papers with all the numbers.
The bigger cause of the declining birth rates is the precarious financial position of the youth in my opinion. Whilst the pill has made accidents less likely, youngsters understandably usually put off having kids until they’re reasonably financially secure. However due to stagnant wages and ridiculous house prices that us happening later and later, which means most only have time to knock out one or two children before they turn 40.
Add in the extortionate costs of childcare and general lack of help for young families and it becomes obvious why the birth rate is at record lows.
Make housing cheaper so they can get on the ladder younger, and either make childcare cheaper or make it possible to survive on one salary as the older generations did and you may see the birth rate start to climb
Higher birth rates are generally associated with poverty in what used to be described as third world countries. I suspect that in the west, the negative messages being imparted to young people about themselves and their impact on the climate and the world in general has been quite a deterrent to bringing children into the world. Motherhood has been presented as both a form of slavery and as selfishness. Muslims generally consider children to be gifts from God and Mohammed was the number 1 registered boys name in the U.K. in 2023. Muslim children are now being particularly valued in non-Muslim democratic countries as it is the route to political power and the changing of the law. A message being preached in many a U.K. mosque.
Social security was a major factor in preventing childbirth. People in developing countries have many children to guarantee old age security. When the state promises old age pensions birth rates drop. If social security goes bankrupt people will rush to breed. People in the West trust the state for that pension. If it fails, then watch the birthrate soar.
Yes, I was taught that too, and that birth control was a decisive factor, but now I am beginning to believe it is far more complicated. It wasn’t until about 1940 that a substantial number of people lived to retirement age. Harry and Meghan were awarded a prize for only having two children and made much about it. I don’t understand why there has been such a push to reduce the birth rate and has been for at least seventy years (which may well have been a factor in the manufacture of the pill) whilst simultaneously increasing immigration. It is as if the nation is slowly committing suicide. It reminds me of Moctezuma handed Mexico over to Cortez because he believed Cortez to be a God whose coming was prophesied. Maybe when a nation has run out of drive, of motivation, of faith, of belief, it just lies down and dies allowing the vultures rich and easy pickings. Rishi Sunak is a vulture. There are packs of vultures who claim cultural privilege as a right and seek to enrich their group.
“It wasn’t until about 1940 that a substantial number of people lived to retirement age”.
That is a good point. People might need to work longer.
This is an absurd conspiratorial rant. One minute some of you guys are banging on about over population, the next the declining birth rate! Do you actually talk to any young people about their family plans?
Off course. I talk to numerous people, young and old, from various different backgrounds which is why I am questioning my own indoctrination. Instead of accusing me of conspiracy theorising, you would do better studying some depth psychology and talking to the young and unguarded to find out what is going on behind the scenes.
Women need to freeze their eggs at age 12 or 13. Pay for the house as double income no kids. Have the babies at 40 or 50. Send children to college at 60 or 70 Then die at a time when their children most need their inheritance and life insurance. My 1907 born parents skipped reproduction due to the depression and WWII and then they produced a 1948 boomer with silent generation traits. I got my inheritance at 29.
You’re not the full ticket are you?
I’d rather have my parents around than an inheritance. Is money that important to you you’d rather have their house than their company? If so I pity you
I assume you are in the UK. I ask, because I remember when a significant portion of the Working Class were happy to live in Council Housing all their lives (including all my British relatives).
Unfortunately the bulk of the council housing has long since been sold off and never replaced, so most youngsters now have to pay extortionate rents in private rentals if they’re unable to save the colossal deposit needed for a house.
I grew up in a council house, I think they should be built en masse for those priced out of owning a home. Surely it makes more sense to that rather than the government hand over billions each year to private landlords?
It’s always been recreational.
Oh yes. That’s right. People weren’t unhappy before the sexual revolution….
Ah there you go. You see it isn’t a case of unhappiness or not. It’s about relative degrees, trends. Suffering is part of the human condition. But women have got consistently less happy since the sexual revolution. Here’s one recent paper. I can give you a 100
https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Intellectual_Life/Stevenson_ParadoxDecliningFemaleHappiness_Dec08.pdf
Here is Jean Twenge making the case with different data https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2019/the-sad-state-of-happiness-in-the-united-states-and-the-role-of-digital-media/
Even the Guardian gets in on this one (they presumably remembered they were supposed to be feminists in this issue) https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/13/happiness-of-girls-and-young-women-at-lowest-level-since-2009-shows-uk-poll
And The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/10/why-life-has-gotten-more-comfortable-less-happy/616807/
UK Children https://www.understandingsociety.ac.uk/news/2020/09/07/the-decline-in-childrens-happiness-with-their-friends/
I strongly suspect polyamory is for those who are bisexual. I doubt that those who are not would want to continue with it after the experimenting phase is over.
Or the greedy
The rule for a 3 way is everyone must organism. the best way is a straight male, a lesbian woman and a bisexual female. Two bisexual females and straight male also work. Two incomes and one stay at home child tender. Two gay males do not work since girl not satisfied. Jealousy problems if 2 straight males.
An organism you say?
Organisms are overrated.
You seem to know an awful lot about it, or claim to.
He must have read the Guide.
I think recreational sex is a perfectly legitimate pastime. However, it does require considerable caution. Participants must endeavour to minimise the chances of pregnancy and disease. They must, of course, ensure their physical safety and be honest and open with those involved. Many people who enjoy casual sex do so. However, there are no shortage of people who can only do these thing full of booze or drugs.
“she keeps thinking that the next quick high is gonna solve her problems only to once again find themselves laid out in the gutter, feeling like crap,”
You should absolutely not be doing these if they are not fun. Roden-Winter needs to sort herself out.
Re: Rosen-Winter – ya think? She’s doing something that devalues her being, making her depressed. If she were smart and introspective and not so needy she’d stop doing what she’s doing. She’s to be pitied.
No, censored.
You can censor a book or a film, but a person?
You’re right, censured.
“Censured?”
I’m wrong.
Might be too late for her.
I have always taken it that if you have to get drunk or high to do something it means you don’t really want to do it.
Really? That pretty much describes my whole life!
Agreed, I’d have never left the house. I probably didn’t need the drink or drugs to do half the things I did, but they definitely enhanced the experience
Absolutely -and self discipline and the ability to refuse poor choices is ,for me,the ultimate freedom-not endless indulgence in whatever takes my fancy on any particular day.I have lived both alternatives and certainly the former has produced a more fulfilling life. Your addiction metaphor is spot on-however,each to their own.
Sadly that’s now a rather dated version of freedom – involving autonomy and taking responsibility for your own actions and their consequences. The modern version is about freedom from responsibility.
Like you I’ve lived both. I think the former may work for those who are incapable of the latter.
I think she should take drugs to make her feel better and ultimately get her a Darwin award.. start with di-hydro-codone and then move on to that strange green stuff the lefties like to see pumped into our cities.
hier kommt die Sonne… sie ist der hellste Stern von allen… DAAD
No matter how much Progressives would like to ‘rewrite’ human nature it’s virtually impossible to alter biology at least in the short run, given the thousands of years it’s been evolving. Most importantly, men seek to ‘spread their seed’ and will do so with those willing to take it; There’s nothing emotional about this urge. Woman do not have the same need as they can only get pregnant once at a time – and there’s a huge emotional component is that feat a lot driven by hormones. Now if a women wants to be ‘sperm receptacle’ that’s her business. The guys of course love it, crave it in fact, but she’s not doing herself any favors. It’s likely that women who seek this freedom even a have a screw lose – needy, insecure etc – however slight. Train wrecks are fascinating. To goggle at them is also human nature. It’s that simple.
The women who seek this freedom have hormones as well. However, promiscuity is more complicated for women and is still frowned upon by society with its double standard. Women are sluts and whores but men are studs.
I really do not think it is that clear cut by any stretch.
No young man wants or needs a reputation for playing around. It is just trouble. It is trouble with the women he knows. It is trouble with other guys if they see him talking to a girl they are related to or friends with. It is just trouble.
And, as much as men like to talk about playing around, and certainly many do, most of them are more inclined to want to protect and provide for a single woman.The ones that do play around and get away with it are usually the men in that top 5% that almost all women want to chase. The rest of us…yeah…not so much. But hey, you all enable those guys.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again, one woman in your life is enough to keep any man on his toes. Why anyone would subject themselves to trying to keep more than one happy is beyond me.
I’m not sure that many men see it as their task to keep women happy.
Oh Clare……that is the FIRST thing they think about.
Good grief. You really do not know men.
Good Lord, almost all male conversations where men are involved wi in relationships start with “How is so and so?”. That then leads to what you have been doing for her lately.
Nothing in this world will frustrate a man more than not being able to figure out how to keep the woman in his life happy. It will eat at him until he figures it out.
It’s why we tell women to “Just tell me what you want.”. We want you to give us a path to get there. Few things make us angrier than when a woman says “You should know.” or “I should not have to tell you.” or God forbid you all go into silent mode, say nothing and leave us guessing. THAT will make us angry because there is not path, there is no way to know how to make her happy. Your left floundering and guessing.
Then, when nothing works, we give up because we have no way to know how to win.
All most men want is to be appreciated. In fact, most men would almost prefer appreciation and respect above being loved.
That is most men. You do not want to run into or be involved with the other kind. There are fewer of them, but those are the ones that are dangerous.
Ugh…..it should just be so frigging obvious.
Even as generalizations your remarks seem a little off the mark to me. I talk to fellow men both in and “in-between” marriages/long term relationships and, yes, “how is she” gets asked, but long follow-up discussions don’t tend to happen unless there is major news or things are going badly.
The type of man who remains utterly consumed with keeping his darling happy year after year sounds like an idealization from a rom com or chick-lit novel to me. The degree to which you frame it as the man’s whole world, that is. I accept that such all-in romantic providers as you and your circle of pals exist, and I’m glad, but I doubt its typical.
True that most men have an elemental need to be respected, perhaps admired–but love is the sine qua non in my book.
Unlike some others, I found your picture mainly accurate. This overwhelming desire to make a woman happy is almost the male tragedy. If appreciation isn’t shown, or love leads to disrespect then most men either up their game or eventually withdraw emotionally. It’s simply too painful.
I should add though that this is not all men at all times.
You seem to be suffering from a lack of communication skills.
You live in a very different world to me, I’ve never once asked (or been asked) “what have you done for her lately” Your caricature of “most men” sounds more theoretical than anything grounded from real life experience, either that or the lads I’ve always lived and worked with operate in very different social circles
Really heavy sarcasm.
I think most of us men would say it’s a fairly impossible task some days
This doesn’t apply in cities where not everyone knows each other.
That kind of freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose. Kris Kristofferson put the words to music.
I’ve always thought that line sounds rather Zen.
It sounds a touch cynical to me without the following line (in Joplin’s version): “Nothin’, don’t mean nothin’, honey, if it ain’t free”.
I think that’s a bit dated. Even the word “stud” is now only ever used in the context in which you have just used it. F—-boy is more current, chad is sometimes used and neither is flattering. Men who simply use women for sex are generally frowned on. They are seen as exploitative. Meantime, criticising women for any of their behaviour is largely taboo in mainstream society. That latter is changing too though with an internet male counter culture now calling women out for high body counts or exploitative attitudes towards men.
What exactly is a sexually exploitive attitude by women towards men?
Assuming that all men really, really want to be studs is a good example. We tend to be more various and nuanced in our thoughts and feelings.
Some are some aren’t
If you look back, you’ll see I said “exploitative” rather than “sexually exploitative”. And what they claim is that some women, whether on only fans or the dating scene, or even in long term relationships, are simply using men for material gain. They also tend to see the marriage/divorce cycle as exploitative and a really bad risk for men.
Frowned upon by who? Having a reputation never seemed to be a barrier for any bloke I knew. Even the ones who’d been caught cheating multiple times never seemed to have too much trouble talking their way in with another woman. There’s definitely a difference the way being promiscuous is looked upon for men and women
I’m wondering what generation you are from. Modern women cheat pretty easily, and their friends can generally be relied on to provide cover. They receive little criticism.
But it’s always been the case that if a man cheats he is to blame – but if a woman cheats he is also to blame for not meeting her needs (for love, attention or material comfort).
As a footnote, new research is showing that the reverse of the stereotype is true – women cheat for sex, men because they feel unloved.
I don’t think it’s either or. Six of one and half a dozen of the other. In my 45 years experience as a single woman I can say that I have yet to meet a married man who declined to have sex. with me ( wait for the misogynistic backlash to that!!)
Selection bias may have been at work. Did they make the approach, or otherwise make it clear they were available? If so they are a self selecting group rather than a random sample.
Were the men typical? Were they happily married? Did their wives respect them?
And you have kind of made my point since you clearly have no more qualms about sleeping with married men than some men have about sleeping with married women.
No backlash from me – I’m in no position to cast the first stone – and my point is that the old double standard has pretty much disappeared. Or do you think your behaviour should not be disapproved of?
For the most part, the men would not say they were married.
Probably not representative then. Presumably they had already removed their rings so as not to give the game away.
I’ve always turned it down (not with you obviously as far as I’m aware) I’m not going to lie though it was very tempting to go for it but I’m glad I didn’t
Cheating is different from playing the field. I know loads of lads who cheated, and their mates would always cover for them if they could
Well you can thank Judeo-Christianity for that!
Monotheistic Semitic cults such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam have an awful lot to answer for it must be said.
Indeed.
The sacral understanding of the individual, human rights, norms against killing strangers, the banning of infanticide, care of the elderly……Yep there is a great deal there.
As is being so amply demonstrated in the GAZA GHETTO right now, it must be said.
POSTED AT 08.46 GMT. 16 Feb. and immediately SIN BINNED.
Is Gaza now a prohibited word?
This is simply not true. The standard now is sexual freedom to the nth degree – simply look at dominant discourse on the BBC. It is ‘traditionalism’ and marriage that are demonized. It’s almost like you got out of a Time Machine Clare
What’s not true? I don’t know what you’re responding to.
Do you not find that quite common on here. That people just don’t seem to realise that things have changed since they were growing up. As if we are caught in a permanent reenactment of the past.
I don’t think that’s the case for most men. Easy women get slept with a lot because they are easy – not because men prefer them or particularly love used goods. Even where the s-x is casual, we all like to feel a bit special rather than simply convenient. Not all men are that cynical.
“There is this odd group of people out there that seem to think that having the freedom to do something means that you must do it. ”
I think they’re called Americans
But isn’t it just the old menage au trois?
Ménage à trois.
Yes, I know that, but I don’t know how to get the thingy on top!
Too much information Clare!
That’s funny, David and I tend to agree! I’m just stirring the pot even though it happens to be true. Unherd’s update should have included lines from the comments to the answers because I’m assuming which comment I’m responding to. It gets confusing don’t you think?
Hold the key down for a second and the accent options (if any) should pop up!
Thanks to CARDOG WILLIAMS in my case!!!
Which key?
The alphabet one.
Press e for example these are the options: ëéèêēėę .QED.?
BTW. THE COMMENTS SYSTEM IS STILL DREADFUL.
NOT ONLY DOES IT NOT TAKE YOU DIRECT TO THE COMMENT BUT ONLY TO THE ARTICLE.;
THEN YOU HAVE TO TRAWL THROUGH NEARLY 300 COMMENTS WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF THE COLOURED CARTOUCHES!
ALL IN ALL A COMPLETE SHAMBLES.
But polyamory is a completely different thing for men and women. The historical background for women is: the s**t vs the playboy; the tramp vs the Great Seducer (ala Strauss-Kahn); the w***e vs the giglio and so forth. But we’re not even considering the pregnancies, the abortions, the menstruations, the pelvic inflammatory diseases and std’s, the worries of such and so on. I’ve heard of many women being persuaded by their partners into multiple partner relationships (to mention two; Gloria Steinem and Robin Morgen) and they hated it; felt confused, abused, degraded and dehumanized, while the men felt adventurous, exhilarated and macho.
Duplicate
Another duplicate
Good lord people care so much about what others think of their Instagram lives… Forget all that and do what’s best for you and yours (often the “normal” thing).
Well let’s see. If being mon*gamous and straight is now recast as not just a bit boring but harmfully cisheteronormative and oppressive, you need to find your oppressed victimhood. So sleeping around, calling it polyamory and therefore claiming you’re an oppressed minority, seems a good move. Only, you need to suffer and find reasons why it’s actually no fun at all, but an identity that is tragically leading your life into a genoci**lly victimised suic**al spiral, if you’re to really break free of the suspicion you’re still actually a vile, hate-filled, privileged, s*xual supremacist. And as Roden-Winter (definitely well-roden) has discovered, you’ll then get not only get a leg over, but also a leg up — into the upper echelons of taste — and pink haired people will think you’re cool now.
Finding the victimhood shouldn’t be hard. Three people can’t marry, next of Kin, social ostracism, housing prejudice etc etc etc. it’s going to be a whole thing, yawn.
Yes, Justin Welby will soon be changing my the marriage service yet again, to be more “inclusive “.
I would say Justin was a disgrace to the Anglican church but it’s the Anglican church after all.
You’re right, it would be so much better if they’d just go noncing like their Catholic counterparts
Clearly polygyny is more common and more sensible. 4 women and 1 man and all know who the kids ‘belong’ to. 4 men and 1 woman confusion and disaster; and considerably fewer children. So Darwinistically a big no no.
Yet on a sexual enjoyment basis I can see how a night of polyandry might be more fun for the singleton woman than polygyny for the single male. Women being more sensual and having more erogenous areas.
What? All the kids “belong” to the one man or the one woman. You refer to Darwin but seem to maintain Aristotelian ideas of procreation.
Thought I was clear but seems not. If there are 4 women and 1 man then everyone will know who is the mother and father. 1 woman and 4 men and father unknown.
Have you ever heard of 4 men and one woman outside of gang rape?
Yes actually, it used to be called a ‘gang bang’ by the soldiery, and sometimes even involved ‘spit roasting’, or so I am told.
Or at least being far more willing to claim so, in a rather bizarre form of boasting, one up a ship and put down of the opposite sex.
Another weird idea sneaks into the mainstream.
Yes and ushered by media elites like the author but just here veiled as anti-elitist diatribe.
Those progressive middle claas polyamourists are heading for a fall, they espouse the open borders, they support the Muslimisation of the West, people like them will be the first victims of the moral! cleansing they will carry out.
Why do you think it’s confined to progressives or the middle class? Look at horndog hypocrites Roger Stone and Jerry Falwell Jr. and their group-sex dalliances along with their wives. (Don’t look, it’s just an expression).
And don’t these things happen plenty among the working and barely-working classes these days? Note part of Right-Wing Hippie’s quote from Dalrymple here: “The program of the sexual revolutionaries has more or less been carried out, especially in the lower reaches of society, but the results have been vastly different from those so foolishly anticipated”.
Or perhaps you’re fine with polyamory as long as it’s not among the Progressive Hypereducated Muslim-Adjacent Global Elite?
Some muslim cultures practise polygyny and it’s very much halal.
So what you’ve actually done is impose your own hardline conservative beliefs onto what you assumed would be an even more hardline belief system and shown yourself to be not only ignorant but also more authoritarian than you had assumed islam to be!
Care to tell us about your own forays into the world of polyamorous love?
What about the goat thing with them?
An interesting piece that, in contrasting two recent novels, seems to support a couple of guidelines that I was given many years ago during my own small foray into the world of creative writing :
‘Happiness doesn’t tell well’.
(Hence the success of ‘misery memoirs?)
‘A hero, even though he succeeds overall, always has to lose something of significance’.
‘Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose’, it seems.
What a revolting caption photograph.
Is it or are you just revolted by your own reaction to it?
How can it feel so right when it looks so wrong?
It looks like two adolescent vampires undergoing ‘training.’
You’re easily revolted, Charles!
Indeed, and there is much to be revolted about.
She appears to have a broad tolerance for the disgusting. Makes her very modern.
She left the UK in the 1970’s as I recall, so a bit of an old scold really, and somewhat ridiculously trying to be a bit ‘hip’ as you so rightly say.
Sad really.
Sad that you feel the need to attack me personally for my opinions, and to throw up in my face things that I have shared with you about myself because you asked. And yes, I’m still a free spirit that comes from having an open mind.
You “asked for it “ as you probably remember we say over here?
Asked for what?
I left the UK in the 1960s. Where does that leave me? I did go back for a year in 1980 though.
How about just being tolerant of something that doesn’t hurt me?
Yet you’ve celebrated, from a safe distance, the unevenly distributed sexual freedom of the Ancient World, when orgies frequently involved slaves.
And you are seemingly impervious to very obvious pathology. Your celebration of deviance only works either when most of the population are thoroughly socialized or when you can live in cloistered middle class communities with a strong state to insulate you from the detritus of a decaying society……and keep a lid on things by playing father and channelling tax transfers…..BUt eventually this combination of bribery and coercion will fail….and then you will discover just how vulnerable you are. I will be in the early stages of old age and a man. You will be an older and perhaps even very old lady…..You might then cast a nostalgic backward glance at the idea of natural law, communitarian norms, marriage…self restraint, external constraint, social taboos. There is a lot to be said for that package. However in the mean time, swing it by all means sister
I am, in fact, a very old lady! And I’ve never been into the deviant, just open-minded and non-judgemental about the lifestyles of others. Live and let live so long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else.
Hear hear!
I admire that Clare. I do get the sense that some of that non-judgmentalness gets lost in the ether, and I mean that in earnest. It’s very hard to read tone in typed characters and our words don’t always capture our hearts.
Thank you for that, AJ. Indeed, emailing can be precarious. One needs to be so careful not to be misunderstood even with friends. Lots of smiley face emojis!
🙂
You may try to patronize me but I am, in fact, already very old and still have an open mind. The spirit is still willing but the flesh is weak!
Glad to see you quoting Jesus. And being older and disagreeable, I’m sure if we argued in a pub it would be quite fun. The liberal idea of not hurting anyone else is just so way off base. It does hurt and damage society
I’m not disagreeable, actually. I’m playful.
I thought that was obvious. It’s why I enjoy crossing swords with you every now and again.
A shame people resort to ad hominem. It’s happened to me too. Usually well off the mark – people with cognitive capacity to spare simply don’t do it.
I’m gonna start taking you at your word on that, Clare.
Thank you.
Was it not Margaret Thatcher who said “There’s no such thing as society”?
Yep, and then 10 years ago society cheered because there was no longer such a thing as Margaret Thatcher
“people who’ve benefited from these things all their lives tend to performatively dismiss their importance.”
And here in lies the cause of so many of our modern ills. Popular lies and difficult, increasingly hidden truths. Some parents just can’t stand the personal embarrassment of telling their children the truth.
There’s been quite a longstanding contemporary trope of the Silicon Valley elite pushing transhumanism via gender politics that target sex-change surgery in the young.
In the meantime, this gormless Gen X and Y aristocracy enjoy the pretty derivative pleasures of couple swapping and swinging. The African colonies used to call this ‘white mischief’.
Your last sentence says it all, i.e. it’s always gone on among the elites. I’m therefore not sure what all the moral panic in these comments is about. Sure, there may be greater opportunity now but to make out it’s a new phenomenon is rather ignorant of the past.
In any case, there’s “one night triple stands” which again a lot of the comments focus on, and the much more interesting (but largely ignored) polyamorous long term relationships that may well be something happening more frequently. Such relationships rarely involve more than two people sharing a bed at the same time. I think readers have perhaps taken their cue from the photo, which is unhelpful.
An appetite for moral panic soon needs a new dish. If we had pick one extreme or the other, the incel crowd seems more dangerous to society, and in some sense reflective of our remotely-connected times. But many more people–while rarely all the way satisfied or content–lie closer to the “goldilocks range” than the polar fringes of the sex spectrum.
The elite have always had the money to get away with it. The rest of us do not get to escape the consequences
You’re assuming there are always bad consequences.
The consequences are invariably bad
“Such relationships rarely involve more than two people sharing a bed at one time”. How would you know that and if not what’s the point of the whole thing?
I have know heaps of couples that have done this stuff over many, many decades. It does seem to be increasing. My biggest, or most personal complaint is that (particularly younger) people doing it now just won’t shut the duck up about it. It’s really not that interesting. From a moral/emotional/spiritual perspective it’s not elevated its base. At least the old school wife swappers knew that. I would imagine making it less taboo breaking would take away a lot of the fun.
Next-day exhibitionism? The look-at-us, loud and supposedly proud tone of some of these orgiasticators sounds a bit hollow or forced.
There is nothing wrong with polyamory or sexual promiscuity as long as other parties consent.
This is like saying “there’s nothing wrong with alcoholism or drug addiction as long as you choose it freely”. The fact is that people often make unwise decisions which, regardless of what they originally intended, end up destroying themselves and others.
That’s an absurd comparison!! Substance abuse is in no way similar to polyamory.
100% similar. Individually nihilistic and destructive of community, terrible for children
“Won’t somebody PLEASE think of the children!”
There are terrible things that happen within nuclear families that are far worse for children than the love of two or three people in a relationship.
Fallacious reasoning. The fact that something else is worse does not make something good or OK.
My parents got divorced when I was quite young (which wasn’t that common in the early 1970s). It is a mystery to me how they ever got together, as I have no memory at all of them liking each other. I fail to see how things would have been “better” if they had stayed together.
Yes, very true. People often recover from alcoholism.
Any number of “great” people were alcoholics. Winston Churchill and Ulysses S. Grant spring to mind.
Most notoriously the homicidal Macedonian pygmy sometimes known as Alexander the Great.
“Unwise” is not an immutable concept. I had an uncle who was alcoholic. He was in the Navy (submarines), then in the Merchant Navy, then on the Wharves. He was the happiest man you could meet. He never married and or had children. He ended up dying when he fell down the stairs (he was probably drunk at the time, although he didn’t get “drunk” in the way most people do). I would be pretty sure he was entirely satisfied with his life.
I don’t think it needs to be illegal, or that I need to impose my opinion of it’s rightness/wrongness on others, but that doesn’t make it a good choice for most people–especially married couples (not “throuples” or “quadrouples”) who have to try and look at each other in the post-afterglow morning.
Perhaps there is nothing wrong when this applies to the participants, but that conveniently ignores the wishes of those left out, the partners who may not think it’s cool for their man or their gal to sleep with whomever. At that point, there is something very wrong.
Then it’s being unfaithful whether it’s done with one or three.
Of course there is. Sex is about relationships and procreation – and the reproduction of society, the care of the elderly, the socialization of children. It concerns everyone. Modern liberalism is unique in history in trying to privatize the most basic functions of society. We can only even conceive of the possibility on the back of a massively energy and resource intensive society, unparalleled degrees of complexity and the emergence of an ever-extending state apparatus to play father. If nothing else, you can’t be a green and recognize the need for ecological restraint and support this notion. And you must also be blind to the unhappiness of women that has sky rocketed since the 1970s and the destruction of young men….who now veer towards rapist narcissists like Andrew Tate. In short EVERY BLOOD* THING is wrong with polyamory and promiscuity
Well said!
Rape is doing something to someone against their will. This article is about consensual sex.
The exploding sexual free for all has created a web of pressures and social norms that are impossible for kids to navigate and has led to more confused, unwilling destructive sex than was ever perpetrated by the Mongols or the Huns…..And Andrew Tate claims that all his sex was consensual…..which it probably was in a very narrow legalistic sense. But also coercive, brutal, shameful and shameless….sufficient to give any one of those girls father a perfectly good reason to take the law into their own hands. And just for the record if any predatory libertine red-pilled *un* with a Bugatti comes near my daughters with ‘consensual’ sex in mind, that may well be his last thought
Sexual freedom began in the sixties.
Your bete noire Charles would surely disagree, with a lot of evidence on his side. What of ancient Greek and Roman orgies? Bohemians of the late-19th century? Just two examples.
So true, you’re right. I was thinking of living memory. I’m surprised Charles didn’t set me right.
Wrong! Ancient Greece.
Apologies for the delay!
I recall that Islam allows men to have multiple wives.
And Mormonism.
Officially, Mormonism doesn’t any more (dropping that was a condition of Utah becoming a State), but there are still sects of “unofficial” Mormonism that allow it.
Oh, women weren’t unhappy prior to the 1970s?
They only consent if they’re stupid. You want to f**k stupid people. I hope you pay them well. None of that “give your love unconditionally with no expectations of reward hippie garbage”
Exactly.
I’m sure their kids love it and give consent for their parents to act in a way that directly impacts them (kids of promiscuous parents hate it). And since raising kids takes up so much of your time, it would be very hard to hide, or if not hidden, to give everyone enough attention.
She doesn’t want this life so much as she wants to be the kind of person who wants it
What an insightful line, neatly capturing the way that some people claim to be “living their own life” while actually outsourcing their identity to others.
Just once I’d like to read a book by a female author that doesn’t involve complaining or a therapist.
Hear, hear ! I often pick up books for my ex-wife and just flicking through the ‘chicklit’ section is enough to bring me out in a rash.
One which was highly reviewed recently was about ‘a 30 something woman with a happy marriage and kids who starts wondering if this is all there is ….’ (covered in ‘The Awakening ‘ by Kate Chopin 1899). Please change the record.
I saw a dire self-help tome in Oxfam last week entitled (approx) ‘How to love him without losing yourself ‘ and on the back was the challenge: ‘Are you a disappearing woman ?’. AAaaaahhhhh!
“1899”?!
There are plenty out there.
LMAO….That is so frigging TRUE!!
If it is not fiction then it is some book involving their issues and what they think of as their special insights.
Hell, even in fiction written by women, very often the plot seems to evolve around some internal angst.
Wolf Hall’s one of the best literary portraits of a man I’ve read.
Not a fan of the idea but let’s follow the science when it comes to policy-making. If the evidence shows it is a sustainable arrangement with no negative impacts on children, then let’s see the evidence.
If everyone in society followed Rodin Winter’s path of pleasure seeking and self-gratification, spinning it as freedom and liberation from fundamental social norms and biological realities, the center will not hold.
But they don’t because they don’t want to.
We scurry here, we scurry there, as little more than mice,
How long before we sink our pride and seek the love of Christ?
How long? The past two thousand years, for instance? It’s had its day (era) and failed in so many respects that, whilst we can all try to live peacefully with our fellow men and women, it’s really not helpful to keep citing failed paradigms.
How long before that’s fully understood?
What do you mean when you say “It”?
Are you talking about the Church or Christ? I think you’re talking about the former. The Church has failed, yes. Christ never fails.
Because he’s dead. The dead never disappoint.
Apparently he ‘survived’ crucifixion, no mean feat.
I wonder how or who got the nails out?
I guess if followers believe that they’d believe anything. Which they do.
Clare, Charles, Steve, many others, you are sadly caught up in left-brain literalism. It is no wonder, as it is the paradigm of our time. And yet beyond literal understanding lies story, and in story dwells truth. We have to take time to look though, to listen. Not easy.
In my case my Prep School Headmaster literally ‘beat’ Christianity out of me! And he was both a ‘War Hero’ and an Anglican priest.
Prep school sounds like a miserable experience. My sympathy.
The disciples smuggled an estwing into his robes
Or perhaps a claw hammer?
Same thing Charlie, apologies I forget not everybody is stuck on building sites like myself
David Copperfield had some tricks up his sleeve as well. He did some magical disappearing acts.
So did Ronnie Biggs
The most significant and disturbing aspect of all this is the obsessive and deliberate way that polyamory along with all the trans BS is being pushed by organizations like the BBC – apparently with a view to undermining marriage and traditional norms. Search on polyamory on BBC and hundreds of articles come up https://www.bbc.com/search?q=polyamory
I live in the United States, but I was a glued-to-the-radio news junkie and shortwave radio enthusiast back in the 60’s thru the early ’90’s, until the internet began to replace shortwave radio as the main news source. The BBC General Overseas Service and then the World Service was the 800-lb gorilla in the room when it came to news and feature programming. And even then it was evident that the Beeb was pushing a far left agenda and tending towards advocating for various perversions as well. It’s nothing new for that crowd. They hired their own kind and have perpetuated their agenda down to the present day.
The Beeb was “advocating for various perversions”? Which ones?
The media has a strange attraction to weirdness. This accounts for the tripe we are forever hearing and reading about trans people, who are an infinitesimal .003% of the population.
Perhaps the ‘tards confuse polyamory with polysexuality? There’s no apriori reason why a throuple would be less successful than a couple or vice versa, but if they mean “acquaintance with benefits” such relationships will fail to become long term successes be they a couple or a “polyamorous pod” LOLZ.
Plus the same crew’s hatred/contempt for the Henderson chap is about liberal and leftists intolerance of difference. Their contempt for workers, heterosexuals, christians and non-white people is not well hidden by their luxury beliefs and bien-pensent posing. Most normal people can see through it in a trice. Without scapegoats to kick down to and fakers to kiss up to lefties are very exposed, they know this and cultivate the worst of human behaviour as their smoke screen. If they are shrieking on campuses and writing drivel in their echo chambers who cares? If they are promoting Hamas, Putin, fentanyl dealers etc etc then the state and its security apparatus should care and if they continue to fail then the effort needed to solve the problem will be much higher, and a lot more tragic than if they started today.
…
The default approach here (and plenty of other digital spaces) leans more and more toward sensationalism–they’d rather outrage or scare ya than illuminate, explore, or dare to instruct. But it won’t work on me…wait, never mind.
I enjoy Rosenfield’s writing and always get some enjoyment and a few good laughs, but this was a pretty shallow dive for her, despite the literary tie-in.
As with this article, the commenters often rescue less than stellar efforts, helping me to feel less dirty about relations with lower-brow or below-the-belt material.
Well said.
Isn’t that a bit prudish? And you don’t have to read it. There’s fair warning in the title and photo.
You get defensive and outraged when you are criticized, but default to judgment and insult pretty frequently.
I expected a more in-depth and worthwhile treatment from this author. Do I actually feel cheated or dirty? Not really, it was more of a general little point, slightly heightened for effect.
But to be candid, I can be a bit prudish or modest about you-know-what. Is that worse than being lascivious at all times?
The opposite of prudish is not lascivious it’s being open-minded and non-judgemental. Speaking of which I’m neither outraged nor defensive I’m having fun!
Ok. You sound pretty outraged most of the time. You seem far more warm and voluble in your dislikes and judgments than in your praise or agreement. I’m glad to hear you’re having fun given the tone I perceive from you much of the time.
Your division of terms is laughably false here, an artificial binary in which one side, yours, is clearly superior. I don’t oppose openmindedness (jeez, c’mon!) I just have a bit of squeamishness around seeing and hearing what others do with their sexual lives. I understand that I can look away most of the time and I’m not here to blame anyone. Also, I’m not above horniness and wild imaginings, on which I’ve occasionally acted–in consensual ways, of course.
If one side of your equation is “openminded and non-judgmental”, the other side should receive less negatively associated terms too, like chaste, modest, or traditional.
I find your stance to be decidedly judgmental on this one. Intolerance in the supposed name of Tolerance can be a real stumbling block. For all of us.
There was another Unherd essay where I was very supportive of you when you were being attacked by numerous commenters, but you didn’t seem to notice.
I’ve noticed your support on many occasions. Thank you. I’ve tried to extend to dighand to you as well. I’m sorry I went after so many of your comments here.
I’m in agreement with much of what you say and I should live and let live of “agree to disagree” about more of the rest.
Sometimes I direct my frustration at you BECAUSE I see you as more of a temperamental and philosophical ally than many here, who would likely just vote or shout down my sincere pushback.
I intend to do better and have slowly made some (inconsistent) progress with actually doing better about this. I apologize for the number of more or less preachy and judgmental comments I directed your way here.
Have a very good weekend.
“A digital hand” [can’t edit this comment at the moment]
Thanks for the spirited engagement, Clare. See you next time.
Thank you, AJ I appreciate your mea culpa! I too will try not to come across as shrewish to everybody.
Religion and abortion are my hot buttons.
You can 4ck anyone and as much as you want, that’s your problem, but I can’t understand one thing – where is the love here?
PS. Red-crowned cranes are strictly monogamous birds, but every winter couples perform incredibly beautiful dances, reaffirming their love for each other over and over again. It seems to me that these birds are much smarter than those who seek happiness in intricate combinations of partners and copulation techniques
PPS. I found this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o4xsvE1p-g
“….reaffirming their love for each other over and over again“.
Sounds a bit anthropomorphic.
Not at all… Formally monogamous species do not need a courtship ritual, since it is redundant and energy-consuming. However, they regularly use mating games.
I think the explanation for this phenomenon lies on the surface – monogamous couples need emotional reinforcement of their connection. A husband who brings his wife coffee in bed does just that, because the species are organized at the emotional level in more or less the same way.
Love must be irrational
If I tried some big fancy gesture after years of marriage my missus would think I’d been up to no good
From what I’ve seen, society today struggles with single-amory; how in the world are people perpetually glued to their smartphone screens going to find the time for multiple partners?
I’m not sure about other nations, but among the ads in social media in the US are drugs for, well, let’s say a particularly male problem. However, the men depicted in the ads are in their 20s and 30s, with an outlier or two in their 40s. When the likes of Viagra were introduced, the commercials invariably featured older guys for whom this particular dysfunction made some sort of sense. So, it would seem that a society filled with young males who are unable to perform on a regular basis is a society ill-suited to poly-anything.
Woody Allen said it best in one of his movies, I forget which: “There is nothing as beautiful as the love between a man and a woman. Except maybe love between a man and two women.”
‘He’ should know.
His wife and daughter?
The last remarks here about how much more exciting Roden-Winter’s book is compared to Henderson’s gets at the heart of a quandary I’ve long had, namely doesn’t sin, bad as it is, also give the world some of its colour and so wouldn’t a world without any vice be boring? The thought was first triggered by Christopher Hitchens’ comments on Brideshead Revisited, where he said its greatness owed more to Waugh’s vices than his virtues.
Sin? That word sounds awfully judgemental because it’s a god thing. In truth, you have to have sinned against someone, like a crime. And, as someone or other said, “Since Jesus died for our sins, we’re free to sin!”
Justification precedes sanctification. After entering into a relationship with Christ, we become free to say no to sin.
This is true freedom — between legalism on the one hand and licentiousness on the other.
I appreciate that you’re trying to have some fun by making a flippant remark, but I pray you open your heart to Christ and let Him work in you. The curious result is that, although your sins will be forgiven, you no longer wish to be sinful, having been in the presence of true holiness and understanding now that nothing, no earthly pleasure or desire, can ever compare to that peace.
What is a sin?
Someone once said”God does such a terrible job it’s surprising people haven’t filed a class action suit”
Have you ever lied, cheated, stolen, cursed your neighbour, cursed God?
Those are all sins, as you well know. Don’t act like you don’t know.
I can accept the general proposition that lying, cheating and stealing are in some sense undesirable, but the Judeo-Christian concept of “sin” goes well beyond that. I mean, what is so bad about “graven images”? Also, I’m sure a little adultery never hurt anybody.
Of the concept goes beyond that, I was just listing some obvious examples. There are many more sins than that.
Once you see that God is not just mighty but Holy, Holy beyond anything we can ever achieve on our own, the only appropriate response is that of Peter, recorded in the Gospel of Luke:
Having seen the glory of God, you come to understand why graven images are bad. They lead people away from the truth. Making these images doesn’t harm God – nothing can – but it harms us by cutting us off from the only thing that can bring us true, lasting peace.
As for adultery, I’m not sure how to respond to your comment. The evidence for its harmfulness is overwhelming. It is clearly sinful to break a vow, break a family, lie, cheat, and everything else that goes into an adulterous act.
Anyway, to give you a brief summary of what a sin is, it’s conduct that falls short of the glory of God. And if you think that most human behaviour falls under that category, perhaps the penny is beginning to drop, and you will understand that we are all sinners in need of salvation.
That’s a load of rubbish.
If making or viewing a graven image is a sin: Disowning your brother or sister, cursing your neighbor, or withholding the hand of comfort from a needy stranger is far worse. I don’t think I contradict Jesus of Nazareth on that one.
Didn’t you mean “withholding the hand of comfort TO a needy stranger” Not FROM?
“Refusing to offer TO” and “withholding FROM” both seem more idiomatically correct to my North American ear. Perhaps this is similar to the British use of different to vs. different from?
You’re right.
To the extent that I understand the teachings of the person known as Jesus of Nazareth, they appear to have a “love and tolerance” theme to them. To me, that is something that appears a bit lacking in modern day Christianity.
Yes. And the historical record show that it has been lacking for a very long time (on the whole), especially since it became the state religion of Rome instead of a devout, persecuted sect.
Where do those of us who are “sinners” (according to your definition), but who love every minute of it, fit?
Is lying a sin? Yikes! And cursing god? If I don’t believe in him why would I bother cursing him? Why would I know what are sins if I don’t believe in the concept?
Exactly, although most of us who come from a Judeo-Christian background probably “take the Lord’s name in vain” when we (for example) hit our thumb with a hammer.
“The human spirit is prey to the most astounding impulses. Man goes constantly in fear of himself, his erotic urges terrify him. The saint turns from the voluptuary in alarm, she does not know his unacknowledgeable passions and her own are one”.
George Bataille.
A quick Wikipedia check on the personal life of the author you quoted. I find that tends to be relevant to a person’s philosophical worldview, considering the human tendency to rationalise rather than be rational.
Surprise surprise, the man himself was a slave to his sinful desires. And curiously enough, he formulated a philosophical worldview claiming such behaviour is only to be expected. Forgive me if I don’t consider this man to be a great source of wisdom.
In the quote you shared, he seems unable to understand that anyone might be less horny than him, or that being saintly means acknowledging the passions he calls “unacknowledgeable” and freeing yourself of them. His incredulity about all this speaks volumes.
I found the quote rather beautiful.
Funny thing … Paul said he sometimes could not stop his sin
I think most religions define “sin” as comprising things that people have a tendency towards. I doubt there are many religions that have a Commandment that goes “Thou shalt not hit thyself over the head with a baseball bat”.
Thank God I chose to become a Christian. And teach my kids to do the same.
Our family too, James. There are some deep-rooted values in the Christian faith (actually for all Abrahamic faiths) that hold us and keep us on a path of meaning and purpose, so essential to the human spirit. Straying from that path, while appearing to offer freedom, actually offers greater bondage. None so blind as those whose eyes are guided by immediate gratification.
My parents (my mother particularly) taught me to be a Christian. However, I declined to be one….
Thank the lord there is another free thinker here!
Thank the lord 🙂
I think she is referring to our Lord Baal….
Your loss …
It meant I could go out on a Saturday til the early hours and not have to worry about getting up for church the next day, so it was worth it
My decision doesn’t seemed to have had any downsides so far.
Rosen-Winter’s book is not about “the freedom to love.” It is about the freedom to f**k, without love or consequences. What a sad and empty philosophy.
True. Perhaps it would be best described as Polyfu***ry…
Loving and f**king don’t always go hand in hand.
Anyone who doesn’t think the BBC and others have an agenda to push this bollox should just put polyamory or sologamy into the search engine. I got bored of cutting and pasting after the first page of results. This alone makes me want to throw every BBC employee onto the dole. It’s such blatant and damaging propaganda
Willow Smith opens up about being polyamorous
Noni is polyamorous – she has two boyfriends and is committed to them both equally.
Kenyan trio in ‘wife-sharing’ deal
Could polygyny be the answer to Russia’s problems?When three’s not a crowd in a relationship:
Polyamory is on the rise in South Africa as people break with tradition, counsellors say. PICTURE: Three people holding a baby
7 Nov 2022 polyamoryThe unexpected benefits of having multiple lovers: Polyamory is considered by psychologists to be a type of consensual non-monogamy.
Are we set for a new sexual revolution?
2 July 2019’Why should I limit my love?’ PICTURE: Three people sitting, holding hands Noni is polyamorous – she has two boyfriends and is committed to them both equally.
22 Mar 2020The benefits of having many lovers
Polyamorous relationships may be the future of love 23 June 2016
23 Feb 2022 Oneida 3 Oneida: The ‘free-love utopia’ that chased immortality
11 Feb 2018 BBC News Polyamory in picturee The Open Photo Project aims to reduce stigma about consensual non-monogamous relationships.
12 Dec 2018Are married people really happier?It’s common belief that opposites attract, or that marriage makes people happier. But the truth behind these relationship stereotypes – and others – might surprise you.
Eight myths about sex and genderThe lowdown on everything from the ‘gay gene’ to the animals with four genders.The art of the ménage à trois: The exhibition Modern Couples shows how artists and writers have been fluid in life, love, sex and creativity.
Holly Williams explores some avant-garde threesomes.
20 Dec 2022 Two happy women Why love and sex are changing: Shedding binaries, shaking off taboos and more – in a year with big events and changes, love and sex looked different, too.The rise of ‘solo polyamory’: With no ‘primary partner’ and a potential for multiple meaningful relationships, solo polyamorists are hopping off the heteronormative “relationship escalator”.
boom bye bye ina bbc head… send for the ‘matic etc etc
Holly Williams and her Willy Hollow explore the exciting alternative lifestyle of bringing up kids by several absent fathers while living on benefits in a rundown council estate in a post-industrial wasteland.
Lots of gay couples try ‘open relationships ‘ but it never works and is usually the first step towards a break-up.
Didn’t we do all this in the 60s and 70s?
I hope to be doing it in my 60’s and 70’s
A very large number of human societies have developed customs designed precisely to resolve this, in that they in normal times have powerful social structures believed to (on the whole) steer human development along the paths deemed correct, while also having specific customs strictly limited to a particular time and/or place where these social structures are deliberately overthrown — ecstatic Dionysian and Eleusinian rituals in Greece, Saturnalia in Rome, the Feast of Fools in the Middle Ages, etc. Normal order is then resumed.
It’s often thought that these carnivalesque overthrows act as pressure valves that paradoxically make the normal order stronger and more resilient.
It doesn’t seem to have harmed MIck Jaegar too much.
Polyamory comes in many flavors. Considering the economic challenges today in many advanced nations, it’s not necessarily surprising that some people may consider a committed polyamorous relationship–MFF or MMF–to be the height of practicality, providing as it does a relationship with two, or three, incomes sufficient to maintain a middle to upper middle class lifestyle.
I know of one such three person committed relationship that has remained so for over twenty years. These people do not practice so-called open marriage, but rather remain absolutely faithful solely to each other. I think it is a disservice to those who practice a committed form of polyamory to be lumped in with others who wish to follow a more open relationship lifestyle, including all the potential emotional challenges the latter creates.
The potential effects of society’s acceptance of polyamorous relationships–both legally and socially–are certainly worth discussing. But, I can’t really see any way to prevent the evolution of personal relationships via fiat. Same sex marriages, after all, merely recognized a reality that already existed in the form of committed same sex couples.
Same sex marriage is not a marriage
Legally it is normally described as buggery is it not?
Still censored after 12 hours! Ridiculous!
At last, well done UH. It is the LEGAL word/definition after all.
The law in many countries says it is.
The law now seeks to define a man as a woman. What’s your point?
Your example is similar to my statement.
These people seriously believe that words redefine reality.
They are dangerous fanatics
Words do define reality. If the definitions of “black” and “white” were swapped, would the world really be any different?
Your original mistake is that you assume that the law defines what marriage is. If you dare to ask yourself if this is true, you will immediately realize that this is not true.
On the occasions I was married (I am not presently), I got a certificate from the government saying I was married. It was the government’s certificate, so why wouldn’t the government’s definition be the relevant one?
You’ve done it more than once then? I hated planning my wedding that much I swore I’d never divorce just in case I’d have to go through it all again!
Yeah, I’ve done it twice! It is a good excuse for a party!
The day itself (and the stag do) were great. I’m just not sure I could handle listening to the missus spend hours agonising about styles of invitations or whether a table cloth would clash with the bridesmaids dresses again
So who inherits the money. Money is the whole point of being ” recognised’.
I assume it get split evenly, much like it does if you have multiple children
“And given the choice between two stories that beg more or less the same moral conclusions, of course people are going to want the one where someone gets to third base in a karaoke bar.”
You do you and allow me to do me 🙂
Personally, I become very self conscious of reading about people flushing their lives down the drain. The juxtaposition is that, maybe that’s what they have to do and then compare the results before they can make better decisions in the future. From a standpoint of societal fairness, I’m not sure but I think a lot of people would expect rich people to get more chances not to destroy their lives? Or maybe its a case that the more chances means more ways to fail? When good solutions become more limited and finally there’s only one option, so its easy to make a choice. Probably why people find god in prison.
When Madonna’s “Truth or Dare” premiered at Radio City Music Hall, reporters buttonholed celebrities coming out, who gushed about Madonna’s “artistry.” One reporter however found Blondie and gushed, “What do you think of Madonna’s artistry?” Blondie gave her a fish eye and flatly said, “It’s sex. It sells. So what?” Still true, still true.
No problem figuring out which Kat likes in her heart of hearts.
Brilliant thought and expression, such a pleasure and so beneficial. Perhaps right through the middle of it all could run the old idea of “All things in moderation” and the adage that life is full of things you should only try once. But the discipline vs chaos theme is still universal.
Who was it that said “I’ll try anything once, except incest and folk dancing”?
Your mother?
Funny!
I googled. It was apparently Sir Thomas Beecham.
Not Adolf Hitler, the folk dancing counts him out.
Are there clips of the fuhrer doing a country jig, in addition to those where he pets his dog?
Aside from a couple of brief steps in a newsreel I once saw, I can’t see him cutting a jig. But his abiding faith in folk culture is well enough known.
I tend to think it’s never actually as much of a choice as we may like to think it is. We’re born with inherited personality traits, like being introverted or extroverted, and however hard one tries one can’t become the other.
How do you square your belief in determinism with your many distinct moral preferences and antipathies?
In other words: I don’t consider you an absolute determinist but the level of fixedness you claim seems to leave us with very little control over our characters or actions. Where’s the true virtue or true vice if people can do little more than thrash around in their cages of biological predestination?
CK is talking about a psychological disposition. One can battle against one’s dispositions but the shoes never really fit.
But she also claimed elsewhere that one is either born empathetic or isn’t, which to me both lets some off the hook too easily and cheapens the compassionate outreach of another subset of people.
I’m not saying there is no differing inherited portion of such a trait, but I think there’s a lot of wiggle room for anyone between the true empath and the true psychopath.
There’s a difference between being empathic and being compassionate. Empathy is a felt experience over which one has no control. Compassion is a behavior that can be learned.
The brain of someone who can empathize is different from the brain of a sociopath who can’t.
Ok, that’s a valid distinction, one that I mostly agree with.
You’re ignoring cognitive empathy.
Also some interesting evidence that we all continue to think as children (ie self centredly) as adults, but fully functioning adults manage to override that and see things from the others point of view. That would make empathy more than just a felt experience, though brain differences could still be expected in areas of the brain dealing with executive function.
Exactly. I am happy to be compassionate, but I wouldn’t want to be an empath. I’ve known a few, and it seems to be hard work.
Exactly. Who knows how much one can actually change. Free will is a bit of a myth because the unconscious rules us.
I think we have SOME free wlll, a bounded agency. Is a person who is openminded and self-reliant, in material comfort, never jailed and living in the freest known society TOTALLY free? Nope..but to have much of that list is better than nothing!
I thought Unherd was libertarian. Turns out it’s more clutch-your-pearls Conservative.
And loves a click-bait article.
Admittedly the pro-poly evangelists are very cringe.
But how grown adults structure their personal lives and relationships should bother you not in the slightest. Who cares?
Why did you think it was libertarian? And who says libertarians can’t be conservative or post-liberal. I’m a conservative as far as individuals go, a liberal in relation to local markets, a social democrat/ecological-economist in respect of global/corporate markets and a libertarian for families and traditional households
There must be some good discussions at the bar of the Conservative Post-Liberal Libertarian Club.
Well I suppose when politics, morality and religion don’t fit into some little yogurt pot formula that you get with your Grauniad subscription, conversation certainly becomes more nuanced.
I actually subscribe to the Guardian. I like to see what all sides are up to.
I don’t think it was ever libertarian, but I don’t remember it being populated by so many judgemental evangelicals
This article isn’t about judging individuals, but is cautioning on a life-style choice that is actually bringing down our society, sending us to Baal-worshipping hell, a place where we have lost our integrity, lost our selves, our souls. This line says it all, “She doesn’t want this life so much as she wants to be the kind of person who wants it” Can you hear the desperation in those words? Kat Rosenfield is not judging, she is revealing. We can choose to listen, or not.
I’m not drawn to a Poly lifestyle, but I’d probably give it a shot if I thought it would annoy enough judgemental evangelicals.
Hmmm so you’re a deep thinker with a great deal to offer then
I am a deep thinker, but I don’t let that stop me from giving the smug and self-righteous a bit of grief occasionally (you should see my comments on the Guardian).
Well said!! Gave me a chuckle.
It’s not the article I was referring to, rather the comments section that seems to have turned much more American Evangelical than I remember. The articles are the same random mix they’ve always been
Precisely!
“I thought freedom was supposed to be fun.” – And there you have the issue, the central and huge mistake. Freedom can be fun, but it comes with ramped up levels of responsibility, higher stakes and enhanced likelihood of fiery disaster. That’s not a reason to avoid freedom, but I think it makes a good case for treating said freedom with respect and gratitude, and being ready to shoulder consequences.
The polyamory issue just fits neatly into the current fashion for protracted adolescence, with therapy as a safety net.
Who would have thunk? CBC in Canada is banging the same drum as BBC…..’Consensual non-monogamy – a guide’
AKA ‘Bringing down western civ for dummies’
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2017535555523
I know very little about it, so a Guide might actually be useful.
Writers on this topic appear to ignore the fact that, given the opportunity, most men will shag most women. This is not a game played by equals. Women lose something and they know it.
Based in that comment, I can only assume you live in a parallel universe somewhere.
Alexandra Kollontai once said to Lenin, I live for the day when making love will be no different from drinking a glass of water. Admirable ambition for the pleasure principle; one whose progress I have certainly seen in my lifetime. Lenin replied: yes, but who wants to drink from a dirty glass?
Lenin was such a comedian.
There’s an argument brewing amongst commentators that I think conflates wisdom with condemnation.
Personally I think people are & should be free to do what they want so long as it doesn’t harm another. Polyamory, drinking loads, being lazy, taking drugs. It’s your life so knock yourself out, I won’t stop you.
I also know that these decisions are beyond stupid. They ruin your life, they’re boring, pointless, pathetic ways to exist and if you go down those roads you may as well take the short-cut. Just facts, but please carry on if you want so long as you’re not someone I care about.
I’m also the biggest atheist I know, just to be clear there’s no evangelist here, but they actually got it right with the seven sins of Pride, Greed, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath & Sloth. These are indeed the worst things you can do but they’re sins not against the non-existent God but against yourself. There’s so much smart stuff in religions, just a pity they hid it all in the fakery of Gods.
An atheist who acknowledges the validity of the seven deadlies?I like that.
Good to see your screenname again, Phil Mac.
Religion left fear out of the deadly sins because without it they wouldn’t be able to control the flock.
An excellent comment!
We can be quite sure some of the bishops of the C of E will soon be arguing for polygamy in yet another naive and vain attempt to boost membership and take the Church further and further away from the teaching of its Founder.
By worshipping him instead of the Father, and attempting to make him a magic being instead of a singular man, they have already taken the message far away from that of the founder, who began his prayer, “Our Father” not “Dear Me”.
“Why do you call me good?”
“You can do these things and greater”
“These people honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me”
“Not every one that says to me ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”
And so on.
“Our Father which art in heaven”. All very Freudian and patriachal.
I thought that the Father and the Son are the same. Isn’t that what the Doctrine of the Trinity says?
Good! It’ll certainly liven the place up!
It is said that “Good girls go to Heaven but bad girls go everywhere.” They forget that everywhere is a trap leading to Hell. Later of course the bad girls look up from Hell and beg flutily to change place with the stuffed shirt good girl.
If I had to live be the rules of judgemental evangelism there’d be no need for Hell as I’d already be there!
The idea that sexual desire and pleasure can be understood, planned and managed by rational means in pursuit of rational ends is precisely what the Greeks would have called hubris, and regarded as little short of blasphemy… Powerful things are dangerous. Wolves do not make good house pets. I fear for these people’s mental health and that of those around them
Wolves actually make extremely good house pets. You just have to spend a few generations breeding the “wolfishness” out of them. When you do that, they become dogs.
Aristotle was right. A happy life is the life of virtue – which primarily consists of developing habits that take you along pathways to excellence. As the author points out, a story about developing good habits is not exciting.
Our traditional *exciting* stories about virtue are tragedies: ones where a great person is undone by a virtue that has been overdone, because too much of a characteristic is just as bad as its lack. Othello’s honour, Coriolanus’ magnanimity, Hamlet’s familial duty and thoughtfulness, Romeo and Juliet’s love – these are all examples.
In a way, More may well be a tragedy: the central character is damaged because she has a excess of love – and is damaged because of it. It is a trope founded in the ancient roots of our culture, and perhaps more successful because of it.
Allwell and fine, but the cover picture for this essay is an example of polygamy not polyamory. Let’s be accurate!