What happened was appalling. Whilst Netanyahu was long a disaster in the making, the villification of all Israelis and calls for Israel’s demise add little to the debate over what should be done next.
A D Kent
4 months ago
On the day that the South African genocide case comes before the ICJ, Unherd decides to lead with another story centering the Israeli aftermath of October 7th. All harrowing, all desperate, all tragic, all heart-breaking, but I think the timing is odd to say the least.
As for these traumatised Israelis being upset that elsewhere in the world their claims are seen as āfalse propagandaā then Iād have to ask where precisely? Where in the Western mainstream/legacy/Establishment media have any of their claims been questioned at all? Iāve not seen any above the line hear at UnHerd. Links please if you have any Nicole.
A quick perusal of Ayelet Shaked bio is interesting too – a founder member of Israel’s ‘The New Right’ and one of the initial drafters of the Basic Law is quite a resume beyond her hospital work. I’m sure she’s no axes to grind at all.
Do you really believe that Israel is intentionally targetting and killing those who have no known link to Hamas? Intent is absolutely vital to any claim of genocide.
The South African case has pages of Israeli politicians claiming just that intentionality. Iām sure disbelieving the statements of Jews violates some antisemitic trope or other ā Iāll take them at their word here:
You can find them here (from page 59):
Te present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
I listened to the whole proceeding this morning and came out very depressed at the end with a feeling of injustice at the narrative that was put forward by the South African side. Some of what they said was lies or distortions, but even given that, I understand how the Gaza war can be framed as genocide and that is the narrative that will win. And as for us? I just want to live, and I want my children and grandchildren to live. I don’t want to be slaughtered in the name of Allah and I don’t want them to be either. I want our soldiers (including my children) to clear Gaza of every last military installation, equipment, weapon and fighter; whether it be in or under a school or hospital, rockets stored under children’s beds, or in tunnels dug beneath residential quarters. And I want every last hostage back.
I would love for you and your family to live in peace too Rafi, really I would. I just don’t see any evidence that successive Isreali governments have done anything other than to make that less likely.
That may be because you apparently find little blame in the intention and determination of Islam in general and the adherents inside Israel specifically.
Shaked was interviewed about her work with the child victims. Do you believe she should have nothing to say about the children and their PTSD because of her political views?
She can be interviewd and say what she pleases – I’d just expect an article on a platform that wishes to properly inform their readers of events would add a little more context than offered here so they can make their own mind up.
What “context” makes these people’s suffering okay? That a war is going on–provoked by Hamas? So readers “can make their minds up” that their suffering is somehow okay? The sub-text of your comments is pretty transparent.
No of course their suffering is not OK, but neither is it’s potential instrumentalisation to support the political aims of an, even in Israeli terms, somewhat extreme politician. Forgive me for finding that too bleedin obvious to have to explain in a comment thread like this.
All the events of the last 3 months have been disagreeable to me. I’m just curious as to why Unherd decided to re-centre the Israeli experience today of all days whilst ignoring the events in The Hague.
As for the ‘facts’ I’d take issue with a few (a quarter of Israelis suffering PTSD? Really? I’m not convinced that it was only the 3 hostages in Gaza who were killed by ‘friendly fire’. There are many questions about that on October 7th that need to be addressed (indeed some families of those killed are begging the Israeli gov to answer them themselves).
As for the narrative, I think the most likely one is this – Of course atrocities were committed by Hamas & other Palestinians on that day – but IMHO it’s also true that these were exacerbated by a panicked and disproportionate response by the IDF. Subsequently the Isrealis have gone on to commit actions that quite easily reach the threshold of genocide as defined in treaties that the Israelis have signed.
Your last paragraph is ridiculous, bordering on intensely prejudiced. It is Your Humble?? Opinion that they were exacerbated by a panicked and disproportionate response?? The vast numbers of abominations could only have been carried out by subhumans. I have seen the videos that the Hamas people took of themselves and of the atrocities that they were committing so they could proudly boast of them back “home”. They were allowed to happen because the IDF was not prepared.There can be no such thing as disproportionate response to the horrors, the vile, evil things that were done to civilians of all ages. Furthermore kidnapping/ taking civilian hostages are war crimes. Hamas, like its brothers, the Islamic State, Hezbollah and others do not consider international law to apply to them unless it suits them. Their law is an antique one called Sharia.
I have also seen the video evidence of Israeli helicopters straffing cars as they drove rom the festival as well as interviews with pilots stating they did not know who was in them at the time. That seems a bit panicky to me.
Also check out the testimony from Tuval Escapa regarding the shelling of the Kibbutz Be’eri or Haretz report of Israel’s order to bomb their own military bases on the day.
I’m not saying Hamas didn’t commit war crimes – but if you don’t read Hebrew may I suggest you run the Israeli newspaper report linked in this tweet through google translate. The Hannibal Directive is an over reaction – an awful, murderous one. https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1745721714364076512?s=20
That goes to the larger issue of why Israel anyway? Assad has killed a half million of his own. Sudan, Yemen, Congo? Who’s fighting them at the Hague? Who cares about their PTSD? It’s because Israel is the canary in the coal mine. It’s a litmus test of civilization. If it goes, civilization as we know it is probably next. Like it or not Israel is important that way.
I don’t think she is grinding an axe here. What she is saying is a very pervasive sentiment here in Israel and crosses all political boundaries. But yes, I happen to agree with you that her political affiliation should be stated. Ayelet Shaked is first and foremost a political figure.
It is not this platform’s remit, thank goodness, to censor its articles. It is this platform’s remit to allow comment from any member, even AD Kent who clearly is determined to provide a narrative that is profoundly anti Israel
Go to any online forum like Reddit, Quora, X, or Facebook and enter any chat on Israel. In there you will find almost every young person denying what happened on October 7th. These numb-heads actually believe that the attack by Hamas was staged by Israel to manufacture an excuse to attack Hamas and take over Gaza! The Western tabloids have not helped much in dispelling these beliefs.
As a South African I would suggest that the South African government knows zero about genocide, murder, justice, logic, morals, protecting their borders and good governance.
To think that years ago I voted them into power.
Have you read their submission to the ICJ? You should – I’ve linked to it in another comment to this post. This is a legal document prepared by named lawyers & scholars – it’s not an election pamphlet.
I don’t recall the South Africans rushing to The Hague when Putin invaded Ukraine. To the contrary, SA has been openly supportive of Russia’s endeavours.
The sheer arrogance and hypocrisy of SA in this instance is vomit-inducing.
One problem is South Africa has no standing. It wasn’t harmed as a country so it has nothing to gain by fighting Israel in court. That’s why it shouldn’t have been allowed to bring it to these judges.
Where I live, a very Jewish city, the light poles and construction site hoardings are covered in anti-Israel, pro-Hamas stickers, posters and grafitti. Not even a mention of October 7th. The hostage posters have all been torn away; you can still see the bits that stuck when they were ripped down.
Maybe you live in a more Jewish-friendly place. But I doubt it.
As it happens I live in Hove, England, where are local MP is Peter Kyle who I think is still chair of UK Labour Friends of Israel – he’s certainly a member of that group. Peoples Jewishness or otherwise makes no difference to how I feel about them whatsoever. If I saw someone stubbing a fag out on a child’s face i’d stop them and make sure they were punished. The very last thing on my mind would be what’ religion they followed – that’s where we are here.
try any left wing media outlet from the Guardian, the BBC, to The Cradle and every left wing academic Jew ( academic meaning not practical, realistic, or directly useful) you can find. Ironic it is that of all countries South Africa is the one to bring a charge of Genocide. My concern is the amount of prejudice against Jews that one will find in the countries represented in this courtroom.
The atrocities were so obvious and so well documented that even as educated westerners or any educated persons can criticize journalists for ignorance and bias in many cases, they’re not that ignorant or biased in this case as you might expect.
A D Kent
4 months ago
That almost a quarter of Israeli Jews are suffering PTSD is quite a claim Nicole. PTSD is a defined condition – it is not just increased anxiety levels, losing sleep and not getting out as much (which is what the Tel Aviv Uni study I think that statement is based on found).
PTSD is a spectrum, whereby people can suffer from a milder version. Having said that, anxiety attacks alone can be crippling and have an adverse effect on people’s ability to lead a normal life. Those who suffer from flashbacks, paranoia, depersonalisation and psychosis have the more severe version of the illness. If not caught early and treated, it can get worse over time. Full marks to Israel for making attempts to heal the traumatised victims of the atrocities.
Vijay Kant
4 months ago
Finally an article that addresses the real victims of October 7th, while the main stream media is still busy churning out article after article on Gaza victims and Palestine cause! A very few journalists are addressing the elephant in the room. In a sense, the whole world is a victim of Hamas and its supporters since, in Hamasās ideology, the whole world is occupied territory.
Alex Lekas
4 months ago
For a while, I was almost convinced that October 7 had been memory holed by the media establishment and the political class. Hamas is welcome to release the remaining hostages at any time, but that’s not going to happen and we all know it. Maybe a few representatives of ‘Queers for Palestine’ can take a road trip and convince the terrorists that it’s time for peace.
Thank goodness Spiked! and a couple of other outlets give voice to the Israeli victims. Almost everyone I have spoke to in the UK seems to believe that the October 7 atrocities were ‘misinformation’. The same people believe every US debunked hoax of the last few years…
Carissa Pavlica
4 months ago
It’s disheartening to see that troubled kids suffering in the wake of the atrocities are then tossed from their homes by their parents for being unable to cope. It’s hard to comprehend.
I didn’t see that anywhere in the article. It talked about young people losing their apartments because they couldn’t keep up with rent, not teenagers being thrown out by their parents.
Brian Thomas
4 months ago
Many posts on this article seem to have disappeared?
People are also free to choose who to associate with and who not to associate with. Who wants people around who say something you think is obnoxious? What does this site necessarily owe anyone?
Indeed they do. Many seem to have been either mine or replies to my comments. I pointed out the fact the ex-politician mentioned was a founding member of ‘The New Right’ in Israel so may have had an axe to grind. Also that she was one of the original drafters of ‘The Basic Law’ (which I could have, but didn’t, label as a blue print for Apartheid). I thought that might have been worth noting in the original piece.
The fact that Israeli newspapers are now reporting that the IDF gave orders to stop at all costs Hamas terrorists returning to Gaza, even if they had hostages is going to add to the horrible trauma I fear.
What happened was appalling. Whilst Netanyahu was long a disaster in the making, the villification of all Israelis and calls for Israel’s demise add little to the debate over what should be done next.
On the day that the South African genocide case comes before the ICJ, Unherd decides to lead with another story centering the Israeli aftermath of October 7th. All harrowing, all desperate, all tragic, all heart-breaking, but I think the timing is odd to say the least.
As for these traumatised Israelis being upset that elsewhere in the world their claims are seen as āfalse propagandaā then Iād have to ask where precisely? Where in the Western mainstream/legacy/Establishment media have any of their claims been questioned at all? Iāve not seen any above the line hear at UnHerd. Links please if you have any Nicole.
A quick perusal of Ayelet Shaked bio is interesting too – a founder member of Israel’s ‘The New Right’ and one of the initial drafters of the Basic Law is quite a resume beyond her hospital work. I’m sure she’s no axes to grind at all.
Referring to the ludicrous South African āGenocideā case reduces all else you say to utter garbage.
What’s so ludicrous about the South African case? Has anyone at Unherd touched it?
Do you really believe that Israel is intentionally targetting and killing those who have no known link to Hamas? Intent is absolutely vital to any claim of genocide.
The South African case has pages of Israeli politicians claiming just that intentionality. Iām sure disbelieving the statements of Jews violates some antisemitic trope or other ā Iāll take them at their word here:
You can find them here (from page 59):
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf#page=59
Also for your reference:
From the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf
Article II:
Te present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
I listened to the whole proceeding this morning and came out very depressed at the end with a feeling of injustice at the narrative that was put forward by the South African side. Some of what they said was lies or distortions, but even given that, I understand how the Gaza war can be framed as genocide and that is the narrative that will win. And as for us? I just want to live, and I want my children and grandchildren to live. I don’t want to be slaughtered in the name of Allah and I don’t want them to be either. I want our soldiers (including my children) to clear Gaza of every last military installation, equipment, weapon and fighter; whether it be in or under a school or hospital, rockets stored under children’s beds, or in tunnels dug beneath residential quarters. And I want every last hostage back.
I would love for you and your family to live in peace too Rafi, really I would. I just don’t see any evidence that successive Isreali governments have done anything other than to make that less likely.
That may be because you apparently find little blame in the intention and determination of Islam in general and the adherents inside Israel specifically.
Shaked was interviewed about her work with the child victims. Do you believe she should have nothing to say about the children and their PTSD because of her political views?
She can be interviewd and say what she pleases – I’d just expect an article on a platform that wishes to properly inform their readers of events would add a little more context than offered here so they can make their own mind up.
What “context” makes these people’s suffering okay? That a war is going on–provoked by Hamas? So readers “can make their minds up” that their suffering is somehow okay? The sub-text of your comments is pretty transparent.
No of course their suffering is not OK, but neither is it’s potential instrumentalisation to support the political aims of an, even in Israeli terms, somewhat extreme politician. Forgive me for finding that too bleedin obvious to have to explain in a comment thread like this.
So, is the narrative implied in this article disagreeable to you, or are the facts provided here disagreeable to your narrative?
All the events of the last 3 months have been disagreeable to me. I’m just curious as to why Unherd decided to re-centre the Israeli experience today of all days whilst ignoring the events in The Hague.
As for the ‘facts’ I’d take issue with a few (a quarter of Israelis suffering PTSD? Really? I’m not convinced that it was only the 3 hostages in Gaza who were killed by ‘friendly fire’. There are many questions about that on October 7th that need to be addressed (indeed some families of those killed are begging the Israeli gov to answer them themselves).
As for the narrative, I think the most likely one is this – Of course atrocities were committed by Hamas & other Palestinians on that day – but IMHO it’s also true that these were exacerbated by a panicked and disproportionate response by the IDF. Subsequently the Isrealis have gone on to commit actions that quite easily reach the threshold of genocide as defined in treaties that the Israelis have signed.
Your last paragraph is ridiculous, bordering on intensely prejudiced. It is Your Humble?? Opinion that they were exacerbated by a panicked and disproportionate response?? The vast numbers of abominations could only have been carried out by subhumans. I have seen the videos that the Hamas people took of themselves and of the atrocities that they were committing so they could proudly boast of them back “home”. They were allowed to happen because the IDF was not prepared.There can be no such thing as disproportionate response to the horrors, the vile, evil things that were done to civilians of all ages. Furthermore kidnapping/ taking civilian hostages are war crimes. Hamas, like its brothers, the Islamic State, Hezbollah and others do not consider international law to apply to them unless it suits them. Their law is an antique one called Sharia.
I have also seen the video evidence of Israeli helicopters straffing cars as they drove rom the festival as well as interviews with pilots stating they did not know who was in them at the time. That seems a bit panicky to me.
Also check out the testimony from Tuval Escapa regarding the shelling of the Kibbutz Be’eri or Haretz report of Israel’s order to bomb their own military bases on the day.
I’m not saying Hamas didn’t commit war crimes – but if you don’t read Hebrew may I suggest you run the Israeli newspaper report linked in this tweet through google translate. The Hannibal Directive is an over reaction – an awful, murderous one.
https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1745721714364076512?s=20
That goes to the larger issue of why Israel anyway? Assad has killed a half million of his own. Sudan, Yemen, Congo? Who’s fighting them at the Hague? Who cares about their PTSD? It’s because Israel is the canary in the coal mine. It’s a litmus test of civilization. If it goes, civilization as we know it is probably next. Like it or not Israel is important that way.
I don’t think she is grinding an axe here. What she is saying is a very pervasive sentiment here in Israel and crosses all political boundaries. But yes, I happen to agree with you that her political affiliation should be stated. Ayelet Shaked is first and foremost a political figure.
It is not this platform’s remit, thank goodness, to censor its articles. It is this platform’s remit to allow comment from any member, even AD Kent who clearly is determined to provide a narrative that is profoundly anti Israel
Go to any online forum like Reddit, Quora, X, or Facebook and enter any chat on Israel. In there you will find almost every young person denying what happened on October 7th. These numb-heads actually believe that the attack by Hamas was staged by Israel to manufacture an excuse to attack Hamas and take over Gaza! The Western tabloids have not helped much in dispelling these beliefs.
As a South African I would suggest that the South African government knows zero about genocide, murder, justice, logic, morals, protecting their borders and good governance.
To think that years ago I voted them into power.
Have you read their submission to the ICJ? You should – I’ve linked to it in another comment to this post. This is a legal document prepared by named lawyers & scholars – it’s not an election pamphlet.
I don’t recall the South Africans rushing to The Hague when Putin invaded Ukraine. To the contrary, SA has been openly supportive of Russia’s endeavours.
The sheer arrogance and hypocrisy of SA in this instance is vomit-inducing.
One problem is South Africa has no standing. It wasn’t harmed as a country so it has nothing to gain by fighting Israel in court. That’s why it shouldn’t have been allowed to bring it to these judges.
Where I live, a very Jewish city, the light poles and construction site hoardings are covered in anti-Israel, pro-Hamas stickers, posters and grafitti. Not even a mention of October 7th. The hostage posters have all been torn away; you can still see the bits that stuck when they were ripped down.
Maybe you live in a more Jewish-friendly place. But I doubt it.
Anywhere he lives is not going to be Jewish friendly.
As it happens I live in Hove, England, where are local MP is Peter Kyle who I think is still chair of UK Labour Friends of Israel – he’s certainly a member of that group. Peoples Jewishness or otherwise makes no difference to how I feel about them whatsoever. If I saw someone stubbing a fag out on a child’s face i’d stop them and make sure they were punished. The very last thing on my mind would be what’ religion they followed – that’s where we are here.
Antisemitism is racism. There are messianic Jews and secular Jews who experience prejudice.
try any left wing media outlet from the Guardian, the BBC, to The Cradle and every left wing academic Jew ( academic meaning not practical, realistic, or directly useful) you can find. Ironic it is that of all countries South Africa is the one to bring a charge of Genocide. My concern is the amount of prejudice against Jews that one will find in the countries represented in this courtroom.
In the Guardian? As for the claims of ‘propaganda’ I’d be interested to hear what you think of thiis – an Israeli paper reporting that orders were given on October 7th for the IDF to stop at all costs Hamas getting back to Gaza with hostages – with that cost including the lives of the hostages themselves.
https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1745721714364076512?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1745721714364076512%7Ctwgr%5Eefe82b863b002d26c8a8d3cf59fafb8d2f8bfe0e%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nakedcapitalism.com%2F%3Fp%3D264858
The atrocities were so obvious and so well documented that even as educated westerners or any educated persons can criticize journalists for ignorance and bias in many cases, they’re not that ignorant or biased in this case as you might expect.
That almost a quarter of Israeli Jews are suffering PTSD is quite a claim Nicole. PTSD is a defined condition – it is not just increased anxiety levels, losing sleep and not getting out as much (which is what the Tel Aviv Uni study I think that statement is based on found).
PTSD is a spectrum, whereby people can suffer from a milder version. Having said that, anxiety attacks alone can be crippling and have an adverse effect on people’s ability to lead a normal life. Those who suffer from flashbacks, paranoia, depersonalisation and psychosis have the more severe version of the illness. If not caught early and treated, it can get worse over time. Full marks to Israel for making attempts to heal the traumatised victims of the atrocities.
Finally an article that addresses the real victims of October 7th, while the main stream media is still busy churning out article after article on Gaza victims and Palestine cause! A very few journalists are addressing the elephant in the room. In a sense, the whole world is a victim of Hamas and its supporters since, in Hamasās ideology, the whole world is occupied territory.
For a while, I was almost convinced that October 7 had been memory holed by the media establishment and the political class. Hamas is welcome to release the remaining hostages at any time, but that’s not going to happen and we all know it. Maybe a few representatives of ‘Queers for Palestine’ can take a road trip and convince the terrorists that it’s time for peace.
Maybe those representatives of āQueers for Palestineā can offer to swop places with the hostages
That hasn’t seemed to have been the case in the US – I don’t think it’s been true over here too.
https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/newspapers-israel-palestine-bias-new-york-times/
Thank goodness Spiked! and a couple of other outlets give voice to the Israeli victims. Almost everyone I have spoke to in the UK seems to believe that the October 7 atrocities were ‘misinformation’. The same people believe every US debunked hoax of the last few years…
It’s disheartening to see that troubled kids suffering in the wake of the atrocities are then tossed from their homes by their parents for being unable to cope. It’s hard to comprehend.
I didn’t see that anywhere in the article. It talked about young people losing their apartments because they couldn’t keep up with rent, not teenagers being thrown out by their parents.
Many posts on this article seem to have disappeared?
I can’t imagine why
Because some āspasticā objected. I gather the technical term is ā flagged itā.
So much for freedom of speech!
Not sure I’d have put it that way Charles, but I take your point. Those comments came back for a while this morning, but have now disappeared again.
I wouldnāt have put it that way either, but it did give me a laugh!
People are also free to choose who to associate with and who not to associate with. Who wants people around who say something you think is obnoxious? What does this site necessarily owe anyone?
Indeed they do. Many seem to have been either mine or replies to my comments. I pointed out the fact the ex-politician mentioned was a founding member of ‘The New Right’ in Israel so may have had an axe to grind. Also that she was one of the original drafters of ‘The Basic Law’ (which I could have, but didn’t, label as a blue print for Apartheid). I thought that might have been worth noting in the original piece.
Tut tut
The fact that Israeli newspapers are now reporting that the IDF gave orders to stop at all costs Hamas terrorists returning to Gaza, even if they had hostages is going to add to the horrible trauma I fear.
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13754368