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Arthur G
Arthur G
5 months ago

The protests should absolutely be allowed to continue, and the pro-Hamas demonstrators should be catalogued and filed for deportation if they are not UK citizens. If they are citizens, and not UK born, they should be investigated to see if any ties to terrorist organizations render their citizen applications fraudulent.

Last edited 5 months ago by Arthur G
Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
5 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

And if any of the vandalise the Cenotaph (other other key monuments/memorials) then, as Suella Braverman said: they should be in a jail cell faster than their feet can touch the ground.
*takes a moment to process the shock at having spontaneously quoted Suella Braverman*

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

But the point that gets lost is that the march is intended for Saturday, not Remembrance Sunday. People are confusing the two because this year Armistice Day is on a Saturday, and populist, disingenuous rabble-rousers like Suella Braverman are exploiting this juxtaposition. London will be full of shoppers, tourists and the like on Saturday 11th, and there will be little or no attention paid to the silence. It would be divisive to march on Remembrance Sunday, especially if any march approached Whitehall or the cenotaph, but there is no march organised for Remembrance Sunday; let’s not lose sight of that.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
5 months ago

Whether the march is on Saturday, Sunday or any other day of the week – or any other day of the year: damage to the Cenotaph is proof that British history and values are being rejected.

Andrew Williams
Andrew Williams
5 months ago

Saturday is actually Remembrance Day.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago

No one knows that anymore. Alas, but there we are.

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
5 months ago

Whenever those on the right point out how the idiot ideas of the Left have failed – just as those on the right predicted – there is always be some predictable reactionary who will pop up to accuse the Right of exploiting the damaging, colossal failure for “dog whistle” politics.
We told you multiculturalism would be a disaster for social cohesion. We told you those imported from the most violent, corrupt, conflict ridden, intolerant parts of the world would bring their failed ideology and culture with them. We told you that teaching young people to hate their country would not lead to utopia, but to a fragmented society in which those with the loudest voices and most willing to assert cultural dominance – the most intolerant – would prevail.
So it has come to pass. The disgusting spectacle of seeing tens of thousands march through our capital in support of a a neo-Nazi ideology is what the Left’s foolishness has delivered. to our country, and pointing that out is not exploiting the situation; it is holding the Left to account.

Last edited 5 months ago by Marcus Leach
Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

I especially appreciated the Queers for Palestine group.

T Bone
T Bone
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

I thoroughly enjoyed this response, Marcus!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

I’m very confused because I would say I’m left rather than right, but I don’t support anti-semitism in the guise of pro-Palestine, so when you keep blaming the” left” for horrible things I feel very uncomfortable. Perhaps you could qualify your condemnation to the extreme left or the radical left.

Last edited 5 months ago by Clare Knight
Yaniv
Yaniv
5 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Actually I can understand it, I think there should be some new terminology for left and right.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  Yaniv

Exactly. Thank you.

MJ Reid
MJ Reid
5 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

The left/right argument was imported from the USA, where two party politics is the norm. In the UK, left wing/right wing politics are more nuanced. But it doesn’t stop lazy people using the American argument! I am a lifelong socialist and am horrified at the pro Palestine apologists who will not admit that Hamas is responsible for the current situation in Gaza. Israel as a state has the right to exist and to defend it’s self. What was it meant to do after 7/10? Someone please explain… As for marching for Palestine and condemning Israel, these people need monitoring as with freedom of speech comes responsibility. That responsibility means that antisemitism has no place on any march and anyone being antisemitic should be arrested and charged.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
5 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Yes – and even more confusing is the argument that not being on board with the killing of more than 10,000 Palestinians in the last few weeks automatically makes you anti-semitic, even if you’re a Jew.
And that somehow being in support of all Israeli aggression makes you not anti-semitic. Lots of anti-semites now and in the past have also been in favour of an expansionist Israel fighting against the Muslim world, from Hungary’s leader Victor Orban to Holocaust mastermind Reinhard Heydrich – people like this are fine with Jews being abroad in conflict with the Arab world, as long as they’re not here among us.

Last edited 5 months ago by Desmond Wolf
Yaniv Yaron
Yaniv Yaron
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Thank you Marcus, for those important words.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

First class Marcus.

rod gartner
rod gartner
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

holy kek, imagine copping this hard with delusionary cognitive self protection that you somehow manage to *convince your own mind and self* that an article that clearly, in plaintext, written as a criticism of conservatives wishing to restrict and censor protesting by the left is actually an article about the left’s own policies
Indeed, the disconnect that has me laughing audibly while sitting alone is so severe that I may have to come back in a while lest I wake up the other residents in my home.

james elliott
james elliott
5 months ago

Bullshit.

The decision to protest on the 11th is a calculated insult – and perhaps the final straw.

The police *must* deal with it – or the indigenous population just might deal with it themselves.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago
Reply to  james elliott

As if most of ” the indigenous population” knew what Armistice Day was.

76 per cent of people agree with the marchers, 58 per cent strongly so. Strong disagreement is confined to three per cent, one person in 33. Are there well over 50 million Hamas sympathisers in Britain? Are there 40 million staunch supporters of Hamas? Or, my dear three percenters, could it be that you are the ones who are out of step? And which other opinion that was held by only about two million people should be aggressively promoted by both main political parties and by the entire news media? Abuse us all you like. You called us every name under the Sun over Iraq, when we were the overwhelming majority, as we are now, and when we were proved right, as we are being now.

R S Foster
R S Foster
5 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

…where do those numbers come from?

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago
Reply to  R S Foster

YouGov. What did you think were the figures, and why?

R S Foster
R S Foster
5 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

…there seems to me to be a very big difference between favouring a ceasefire…which I personally oppose, because Hamas themselves have said they would use it to prepare for another genocidal attack on Israel…
…and supporting an Armistice Day March calling for that genocide…as all those preceding it have done…
…for me, “From the River to the Sea” can only have one meaning, and that is it.
I doubt if public support for the one translates directly across to public support for the other. Apples and oranges…

K Joynes
K Joynes
5 months ago
Reply to  R S Foster

Agreed. The YouGov poll he links to is asking about whether there should be a ceasefire in Israel & Palestine. Directly transposing those results onto whether this march should take place is a bit of stretch, to say the least.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago
Reply to  K Joynes

And that was the point that I was making. Armistice Day is the perfect day to march for an armistice, as favoured by three quarters of the British population.

R S Foster
R S Foster
5 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

…but this march is not for an armistice…it is to assert support for the Hamas Genocidaires…two of whom have now been identified as being involved organising these odious demonstrations…
…as I say, “From the River to the Sea” has only one meaning…as any decent person can readily see…

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago
Reply to  R S Foster

It occurs in the constitution of Likud.

Of course there are not a million Hamas supporters in Britain. Have a word with yourself.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
5 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Probably over two million. Think about it . 4m Muslims , mainly from a pre -enlightenment culture and from a country like Pakistan where people suspected of ‘blasphemy’ can be pulled from home or work place and burned alive in the street to the acclamation of on-looking locals .
I support freedom of expression and protest as being part of a civilised enlightened country . But after the ‘Nakba’ of immigration policy ,of the last 70 years , but especially under Blair , it looks like being impossible to sustain that ideal . ,

Last edited 5 months ago by Alan Osband
George Venning
George Venning
5 months ago
Reply to  K Joynes

Initially posted in the wrong spot – sorry

Last edited 5 months ago by George Venning
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
5 months ago
Reply to  K Joynes

The aim of the marchers is a ceasefire. Or what else do you think it is? Either way, there is no polling on the intentions of the marchers so it is hard to know for sure, but given that yougov poll we know most Britons do want a ceasefire. And what we also know about the poll is that Tommy Robinson’s brigade, defending the Cenotaph from enemies that never appeared, caused far more problems than the 100s of thousands of pro-Palestine marchers..

Last edited 5 months ago by Desmond Wolf
George Venning
George Venning
5 months ago
Reply to  R S Foster

The YouGov Poll is asking whether there should be a ceasefire to prevent further civilian causualties in Gaza – a view shared by 78% of the British public and neither of the only two political parties capable of forming a Government in this country.
In that context, it is very strange indeed to assume, as you appear to, that those attending the march on Saturday – or any of the previous ones – are marching in support of the murderous crimes of Hamas. Would it not be more sensible to assume that the march will mostly be attended by people who simply want the bombing to stop and, secondarily who want a workable pathway to peace in Israel Palestine?
Will there be some people there who have stupid and offensive views? Yup. Would it be better if people who simply want peace chanted something other than “From the River to the Sea” – an ambiguous phrase linked to some pretty unsavoury views? Very much so.
But, if every political view was characterised only by the expressions of its dumbest and nastiest adherents we’d never get anywhere – would we. Because, if we did that then what I perceive to be your side of the argument would be charactarised by people who call the Palestinians filthy animals and who advocate bombing Gaza to the ground and exterminating everyone in it. i.e. by people who advocate the mass murder of around 1m children. And let’s not pretend that that sentiment doesn’t exist – it’s been expressed on this very site from time to time.
I’m assuming that you don’t hold that view. Perhaps you’d do the marchers the enormous favour of assuming that most of them are pretty decent human beings who simply want to see a peaceful end to one of the world’s nastiest and most intractable conflicts.
And perhaps you’d like to suggest how such people should, in your view, express their disappointment that neither their Government nor their loyal opposition represents their views.
In forming your answer, feel free to reflect on the fact that both Lbour and Tory Governments have been in full consensus in favour of a series of 21st century conflicts and that every single one of them has been a disaster that has left the affected region far worse off than before.
How should the people who were right about these catastrophic conflicts (Iraq, Libya, Lebanon, Ukraine etc) and who were mocked and scorned on each occasion, express their views to the politicians who have been so serially and unanimously wrong about them?

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
5 months ago
Reply to  R S Foster

But how do you know Hamas want a ceasefire more than they want to provoke Israel into an overblown reaction that loses them international support? I personally think they know that their own destruction is now the best hope of action being taken against Israel (and they have enough disregard for their own people to think that way). And you can see this strategy working for them in the form of all these marches + the shifting of some leaders’ positions in tandem (e.g. Macron now calling for a ceasfire).
I don’t agree with Elon Musk on many things but I think he made some thoughtful comments in the link below, arguing for ‘conspicuous acts of kindness’ from Israel (sounds ridiculous at first, but think about it: are you more likely to join Hamas if you see Israel helping your countrymen or if Israel kills your child?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2myO-slp7w
‘For every member of Hamas you killed, how many did you create?’
‘An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.’

Last edited 5 months ago by Desmond Wolf
George Venning
George Venning
5 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Wouldn’t it be nice if people reflected for two seconds on the respective track record of calling for peace and calling for war in the 21st century?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
5 months ago
Reply to  George Venning

I’m in general sympathy with your well-expressed views on this comment board. But how would you measure such a “track record”?
Those who advocate no military engagement are not therefore freed from any association with bad consequences that ensue–nor directly to blame.
For example: In an alternate past where the U.S. did nothing military or extra-judicial (Guantanamo Bay) in response to 9/11, those who wanted a warlike response could lay some associative blame on the no-war side if more incidents of 9/11 scale terrorism occurred soon after. Not without some justice. But not all the blame. No path creates a world of total safety or non-harm.
And those who advocated going into Afghanistan in 2001 or Iraq in 2003, for example, may bear some associative blame for what followed. But not for how long we stayed, nor for every grievous act done by guards at Abu Ghraib or by frazzled third-tour Western soldiers in war-torn neighborhoods of the Middle East.
A WWII counterfactual in which Britain and then the U.S. stuck to Neville Chamberlain’s initial stance toward Germany’s aggression: What would have happened? Possibly fewer deaths during the years 1939-1945, but accompanied by a victory for Global Fascism.
I want to see more courageous adherents to nonviolence, but not more advocates for retaliatory or reciprocal contempt–we have too many of those already (not directed at you, sir). But a pacifist or nonviolent approach doesn’t eliminate bloodshed, though it may very well lessen or “re-distribute” it. So the “track record” is not perfectly clear, let alone beyond dispute.
I admire pacifists and those who promote total nonviolence. I wish I would follow them with a stronger heart. But some of the world’s sickest killers merit nothing but immediate death, and it is very hard to kill some of them without sacrificing some innocent lives (though overall we do not do nearly enough to minimize such horrors).
Just as my general opposition to the death penalty contains exceptions for the most depraved–like Ted Bundy, who escaped prison to kill several more women before recapture–the last one-percent of my support for warfare, in some instances, is hard to kill.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments and please forgive my lengthy reply.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

How would you have stopped Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan or Timur the Lame ?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
5 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I don’t know that I’d have succeeded in stopping a determined, heavily-armed, and too-well-manned tyrant. But while attempting to do so, I’d hope that even with a tactical or numerical advantage, I would stay my (putative) commanding hand from slaughtering every man woman and child for being in the same village or of the same ethnic stock as some hated tyrant and his militant followers. Nor would I–I hope and believe–have obliterated a whole village in Vietnam because a few Viet Cong and many sympathizers–male and female, adult and child–were sheltering there.
How do you suppose you would have stopped Attila, or Saladin?
Again, I am against war as a normal or halfway “default” response, not opposed to arms in every situation.
My nonviolent aspirations predominate, but I recognize the world we live in too. At least I’m not entirely naive. And I won’t stand by while you (the extended “you”) threaten my loved ones, for example.

Mary Garner
Mary Garner
5 months ago

Saturday 11th November 11th hour of 11th day and month fo keep up

starkbreath
starkbreath
5 months ago

Harken, O citizens: ’tis the voice of the Cowardly Enabler.

Last edited 5 months ago by starkbreath
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago

Do you think Jewish people will feel safe ? We appear so concerned about people’s feelings, what about Jewish people walking around London ?

Pamela Booker
Pamela Booker
5 months ago

We have always recognised the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month as a moment to fall silent to respect those who gave their lives in 2 world wars and since, serving our country. Certainly we baby boomers grew up with that understanding and stood still and silent at that hour of that day every November.
Remembrance Sunday is the specific time to stop and gather together as a nation without too much disruption to the economy.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
5 months ago

Thanks for this reason and balance (doesn’t look like it’s going to come from anyone else). I’m away most of this weekend so I’ll have to let you take this shift alone..

Nardo Flopsey
Nardo Flopsey
5 months ago

As an American who has grown weary of being lectured by you sophisticated Brits about our gun violence: Wake up to what’s happening to your country while you are still able to stop it.

Robbie K
Robbie K
5 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Yes it is their democratic right to protest, if they understood our culture however then they would not plan this march on a sacred and holy day. It’s an own goal, and when no doubt there are people pictured vandalising and waving abhorrent messages then public opinion will turn against them even more.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
5 months ago
Reply to  Robbie K

The organisers do understand our culture. Like Sir Oswald Mosley’s East End march 87 years ago the point is to provoke. They are not seeking to persuade but to intimidate.

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
5 months ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

Quite right. It is assertion of cultural dominance. And as we can see from the craven response of our police and politicians, it is a tactic that has served these animals well.

Last edited 5 months ago by Marcus Leach
Warren Trees
Warren Trees
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Indeed. They are playing us like a fiddle and abusing our rights as we commit cultural suicide.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

The days when the Police had members such as Paul Ackford, Dean Richards, Wade Dooley and were not scared of physical violence appear long gone. Historically the Police had very good rugby teams and most clubs had a fair number of police playing for them.The Special Patrol Group had their own rugby team. Now the Met Police Rugby Team play in Counties 3 Surrey.

David L
David L
5 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

The filth are still happy to use violence when it comes to women at a vigil for Sarah Everard.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago
Reply to  Robbie K

There is no march on Remembrance Sunday.

Andy Moore
Andy Moore
5 months ago

It’s clear from your posts, that you, along with the limited people you know, have little interest in the 11th if it doesn’t fall on the Sunday. However there are plenty of people who do see the importance.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago
Reply to  Andy Moore

From Wikipedia (I’m not Rachel Reeves):

In the United Kingdom, the main observance is Remembrance Sunday, held on the Sunday nearest to 11 November. There is a National Service of Remembrance in London, as well as other services and ceremonies in the regions.

Andy Moore
Andy Moore
5 months ago

So you denounce the Telegraph but quote Wikipedia. As I stated many people do see the 11th as an important day and activities are carried out.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago
Reply to  Andy Moore

Yeah. That nasty, woke, left-wing Wikipedia, lying about the UK Remberance Sunday observation. So many disingenuous cretins on this site.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
5 months ago

I think you mean Wokipedia 😉

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago

Indeed. Lol. And an uptick for your quip.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago
Reply to  Andy Moore

Who needs Wikipedia? Everyone knows this. What do you think that people do on Armistice Day? There is a two minutes’ silence at 11am, and that’s it. Even that is now barely observed. Sadly. But undeniably.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
5 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Actually it has got better in recent years I am delighted to admit.

Back in let us say the 70’s it was almost forgotten and almost completely unobserved.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago

Nowhere near as long ago as that, in fact.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
5 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

No, you are correct, I was trying to be generous!

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago

In 57 years of being a native Brit, with uncles and grandparents who fought in WW2 either as conscripts or professional soldiers and airmen, not to mention those on the home front, and I don’t recall one of them bothering with 2 mins silence on Armistice Day. Although I do remember watching the Remembrance Day service on TV fairly regularly.

Sue Sims
Sue Sims
5 months ago

I’d agree with that. I started teaching in 1975, and for many years, no one in those schools gave two hoots about Armistice Day, though poppies were sold in reception. However, around 2010, our headteacher decided that we’d have a special assembly on November 11th, and that the two-minute silence would be observed during lessons – and that’s happened every subsequent year. That’s only one personal experience, but it’s I don’t think it’s exceptional.

Andy Moore
Andy Moore
5 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

To you it maybe a 2 minutes silence and then life moves on; to others it maybe different. Why do you think your view of the world is the one that we should follow.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago

Who needs Wikipedia? Everyone knows this.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago
Reply to  Andy Moore

“The limited people I know” including almost the entire metropolitan populations of the UK.

Andy Moore
Andy Moore
5 months ago

Ah the good old metropolitan population. You should get out and about a bit more, you never know you may start to question your luxury metropolitan beliefs.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago
Reply to  Andy Moore

Are there? Who are they? It gives me no pleasure to say that the two minutes’ silence on the 11th has barely been observed outside schools, and therefore even less on a Saturday, in at least 30 years. But that is undeniably the case?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
5 months ago

Perhaps we should mention that on Friday the 10th November, at precisely 8.32 pm a little ceremony of Remembrance will be performed at the entrance to Platform 8 of Victoria Station.

Why? Because at precisely that time in 1920 the train carrying the body of the ‘ Unknown Soldier’ arrived at Victoria. It is estimated that 2 million people had watched its journey of about 70 miles from Dover to London, from every conceivable vantage point.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago

That’s actually very interesting.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
5 months ago
Reply to  Robbie K

You can be quite sensible when the mood takes you.

Caradog Wiliams
Caradog Wiliams
5 months ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Exactly my first thought.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Many have not understood the threat from these people. I hope that we have become a little wiser now.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
5 months ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Good!

MJ Reid
MJ Reid
5 months ago
Reply to  Robbie K

It is not a sacred or a holy day. It is a, secular day to remember those who gave their lives so we could have freedom of speech. This needs to be taught in schools and colleges so that it is never forgotten. Migrants need to be taught this too. Those organising these marches know exactly what they are doing. It is nothing to do with the Left or the Right like these are homogenous groups. Its to do with the right of freedom of speech but without the responsibility to others. The press/media should ignore thqm all.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
5 months ago
Reply to  Robbie K

They’re calling for a ceasefire on the day that another ceasefire was achieved – in what way is it an inappropriate day to protest? Quite the contrary. If not, then it seems armistice day is a celebration of rather than a mourning over war.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

It would almost be a sort of achievement to vandalise the Cenotaph when you started a good mile and half from it and then marched further away.

Hazel Bradley
Hazel Bradley
5 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

I have just returned from the march – which was peaceful. There were Muslims, Christians, Jews, the daughter of a Holocaust survivor, children, nurses, elderly …. The main chant and desire was ‘Cease fire now’. People are horrified by the ongoing violence in Gaza where so many victims are children. The police were discrete, relaxed, good natured and alert to a tiny group of right wing protesters who they said they recognised as a group who keep turning up to cause trouble. I was proud of your police and grateful to them. I am against the violence of Hamas and the violence being perpetrated on the civilian population of Gaza. It is not an either / or situation; it is both / and.
People in the West Bank are also suffering and fearful.
A diplomatic just solution is needed. We need wise leaders who want justice for both sides. Inflammatory rhetoric from politicians is not helpful.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago
Reply to  Hazel Bradley

When did Hamas supporters say they would allow Jews to live as equals to Muslims?

Martin Butler
Martin Butler
5 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Great if the Tories hadn’t let the criminal justice system and the prisons degrade to such an extent that it’s barely possible.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
5 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Nothing authoritarian about that. Maybe they should also be imprisoned if they take disrespectfully framed photos of said monuments, as is the law in North Korea.

Last edited 5 months ago by Desmond Wolf
Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
5 months ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

I thought you were going to be ‘away’ this weekend. Never mind – we can give you all the shi(f)t you can handle and a little bit more.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
5 months ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

‘Most’ of it. And that’s very kind of you! We need more online war hawks like you fuelling the Tories’ misreading of the national mood, sealing their obliteration at the next election 🙂

Last edited 5 months ago by Desmond Wolf
Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Being sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinian people does not make one pro Hamas or a supporter of mass murder.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

So why do marchers allow those carrying Hamas or ISIS flags or chant genocidal songs to march with them. If they can’t control their own they should not be allowed to march and offend

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
5 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

There’s a widespread reluctance to acknowledge that Jew hatred is a central tenet of Islam and that all Muslims are therefore anti-semitic (in the political sense) to a greater or lesser degree. Islamic texts tend to be relaxed about the casual slaughter of Jews – when not actually calling for it.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
5 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

The liberal west tries to apply our own generosity in our desire to understand where another person is coming from to a culture and ideology that has no interest in compromise and compassion.

The greatest fallacy and myth we bought into, those of us naive and blinkered to be, was the idea that every culture and ideology is innately equal and “good” – that all are equally desirable if you simply have the right eyes to see. This has been a terrible lie, the only great culture has been the miracle of western civilisation, the fruits of which create the freedoms and prosperity admired and sought by those of every other culture and society for centuries.

Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a hateful oppressive ideology and hatred of Jews is fundamental to its teachings.

From the Hadith: ‘You will fight against the Jews and you will gain victory over them. The stones will saying: ‘Oh slave of Allah! there is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him’

Last edited 5 months ago by UnHerd Reader
Hazel Bradley
Hazel Bradley
5 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I have seen no sign of Hamas or Isis flags or chants.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

There’s quite a strong correlation between the two though.

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

It is clear to anyone who looks at it objectively that Hamas don’t really care about the plight of the Palestinian people, indeed the more of them that die as Israel takes action to defend itself the better as far as Hamas are concerned.
I am sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinian people and would like to see a solution where they and the people of Israel (20% of whom are Arab) can live side by side in peace and prosperity. I do not support Hamas or trying to achieve what I would like to see through mass murder or “any means necessary” by either side.
Hamas don’t want peace they don’t want any solution other than wiping out 80% of the population of Israel. The removal of Hamas is a legitimate goal which more of the world should support and not just leave it up to Israel to achieve.

Last edited 5 months ago by Adrian Smith
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Well said.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Maybe more tha 80% given that one of the first to be killed that day was the wife of an Israeli Arab farmer (Muslim!)

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
5 months ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

Indeed, particularly as there is a significant contingent of Druze and Bedouin in the Israeli army.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Very well said. You’ve articulated my position exactly. Thank you.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Show me where arabs are prepared to allow Jews to live as equals and have full rights in any future country?
Show me where a Jew can live as an equal to a Muslim in a Muslim run country?

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

But have you noticed the dancing in the streets of those people when Oct 7th happened as also 9/11? Sure there may be those who do not act like that, but the general expression of the public appears to be spontaneous on the ground.

Andy Moore
Andy Moore
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Who knows if the people are just sympathetic to the Palestinians and not Hamas. I don’t recall seeing any banners on the demonstrations, asking for the hostages taken from Israel to be returned. That’s a choice they are making, which sends a message to some onlookers.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Being sympathetic is one thing. Chanting for the death and destruction of the only democratic nation in the middle East is another. Marching in favor of the death to the West, while living in our country and receiving benefits from the very same taxpayers is beyond the pale. That’s what this is about.

Last edited 5 months ago by Warren Trees
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Absolutely, it’s massively hypocritical.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Saying ” from the river to the sea “, mentioning Khaybar when Jewish men were murdered and women enslaved and not pushing for freeing of hostages, demonstrates a desire to destroy Israel and kill Jews.
Battle of Khaybar – Wikipedia
I would suggest people chanting ” Remember Khaybar ” is no different to chanting ” Hitler was right “. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Al Husseini was a friend of Himmler, raised Muslim troops for the SS and supported the Final Solution. 5000 Nazis took refuge in Egypt and Syria post 1945 and assisted these countries in expelling Jewish people in 1948. Arafat was a nephew of the GMJ.
Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world – Wikipedia

Peter B
Peter B
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Quite correct. Astonishing that something so obviously logically true is disputed.
Equally, someone could be sympathetic to the Palestinian people and absolutely opposed to Hamas and mass murder.
This desire to see everyone belonging to a tribe which all shares the same beliefs really isn’t helpful.

james elliott
james elliott
5 months ago
Reply to  Peter B

Hamas is the *elected* government of Gaza.

The ‘Palestinians’ elected them *because* of what Hamas stands for.

The entire population of Gaza should be ejected into Egypt. Or, preferably, taken in by Communist China. They could live with their brothers, the Uyghurs.

Peter B
Peter B
5 months ago
Reply to  james elliott

So what ?
Not all Palestinians live in Gaza. Only a minority. There are also Palestinians in the West Bank who don’t vote for Hamas. 3m Palestinian population in West Bank vs 2m in Gaza, so unlikely that a majority of Palestinians actually support Hamas then.
There are also Palestinians (Arabs) living within Israel itself who support the Israeil state. And no doubt even a few in the Israeli army.
The pretence that all Palestinians think and believe the same is absurd.
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but find some of the things being said here are simply ridiculous. And ultimately unhelpful.
Sadly, the appalling behaviour of Hamas has also brought out the worst in some people on the other side. Your arguments here are doing your cause no favours. It’s like watching Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley effectively working together to destroy any centre ground.

P Branagan
P Branagan
5 months ago
Reply to  james elliott

Mr Elliot, you’re a low life, racist thug.
BTW the more downtics I get in the comments section of Unherd the more I know I’m on the reasonable and humane side of the argument.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
5 months ago
Reply to  P Branagan

No Branagan, as always you are a complete prat.
My heartfelt commiserations, but there is NO known cure.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  P Branagan

I think not.

Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

In theory you are right that being sympathetic to the sad state of the Palestinian people is not supporting Hamas, but that’s not what the demonstrations are about. They are chanting Hamas slogans like “From the river to the sea,” which is code for eliminating the State of Israel by killing everyone in it. That’s about jihad, not Palestinians’ oppression. And Palestinians’ ongoing oppression comes from Hamas, which committed mass murder in Israel, and that is what the demonstrators are supporting and applauding.

As well, when demonstrators hurl rocks at the police or at counter demonstrators that is no longer peaceful protest and legitimate exercise of freedom of expression. That is violent assault, which exceeds the boundaries of liberal tolerance. Tolerance of legitimate freedom of expression, even of unpopular causes, should not be confused with tolerance of threats, intimidation and violence.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
5 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Roman

But noone is allowed to counter protest. Similarly against the IRA, like any not anarcho socialist demo destroyed by violence from the far left. As the weasel words from the Beeb say, ‘ violence broke out’.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Are you sympathetic to the plight of the several hundred thousand Middle Eastern Jews, million plus Turkish Armenians or millions of Hindus in Pakistan and Kashmir who were made refugees around the same time or more recently, and treated far worse than the Palestinian perma-victims?

None of them seem to go around committing terror attacks, killing babies or committing large scale sexual assaults against random muslim women, it seems. Seems like that’s the criteria for gaining “sympathy?”

Mark McConnell
Mark McConnell
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

The fact ‘Hamas are terrorists’ placards were violently withdraw by the ‘crowd’ (mob) says everything about the nature of these marches.

james elliott
james elliott
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

The Arabs who – in recent decades – have adopted the ‘Palestinian’ identity *elected* Hamas. Probably would do so again.

Avro Lanc
Avro Lanc
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Spewing anti Jew hatred however? If the cap fits mate….

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Being sympathetic to the plight of the hostages does not make one anti-Palestinian people.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

When Khaybar is mentioned, the intention is mass extermination of men.

Colorado UnHerd
Colorado UnHerd
5 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

You seem to be suggesting a level of scrutiny for people whose views you don’t like that you wouldn’t suggest for people with whom you agree. That’s problematic from a free-speech perspective. As commenters below remind us, a commitment to free speech discriminates between speech and action, not between viewpoints we like and those we don’t. The exception is threatening or inciting violence — a line that may be crossed by people on any side of heated disagreement.

Immigration policies obviously and urgently need serious reconsideration in the UK, the US and other liberal Western societies. But abandoning an historical commitment to free speech seems neither a wise nor effective means to do so.

Last edited 5 months ago by Colorado UnHerd
Arthur G
Arthur G
5 months ago

Calling for murder, rape, and genocide should never be protected speech.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
5 months ago

Yes. I found that suggestion very creepy; “cataloged and filed…” Some people, it seems, are too quick to apply Big Brother methods to those they disagree with.

Arthur G
Arthur G
5 months ago

No, just those who advocated genocide. That’s not a legitimate point of argument. If your position is “we should kill all the Jews” or “we should bring back chattel slavery” or “we should impose Sharia law on a Western nation”or “human sacrifice is a legitimate religious practice”, you don’t get to participate in the marketplace of ideas. If you’re not a native born citizen, you shouldn’t be allowed to stay in the country.

Last edited 5 months ago by Arthur G
Shrunken Genepool
Shrunken Genepool
5 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Or this

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Pretty drastic but drastic times call for drastic measures. To me it feels as if we have a trojan horse amongst us. I have no doubt that when they reach the majority they will have no mercy on those who do not follow the religion as has happened in many nations in the past.

Bryan Dale
Bryan Dale
5 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Their citizenship applications need not be fraudulent. The Home Secretary has the power to revoke citizenship in the public interest, and should be acting aggressively to do so against terrorist sympathisers.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Has the Royal British Legion objected to Saturday’s planned expression of the opinion of 76 per cent of the population? Armistice Day is the perfect day to march for a ceasefire.

“Armistice Weekend”? They are just making it up now. This march is not on Remembrance Sunday, it will start hours after the two minutes’ silence (the point of which on Armistice Day has always been that it interrupted what was otherwise a normal day), it will go nowhere near the Cenotaph, and in fact as a march from Hyde Park to the American Embassy, it will be a march away from central London. And there has never been any such thing as “Armistice Weekend”.

Suella Braverman is goading Rishi Sunak into sacking her, so that she can launch her bid for the Leadership and the Premiership. Yet the other side agrees with her on everything from this march to homelessness.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
5 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Exactly – she’s trying to create a false culture war between Palestine and poppies. There’s nothing unpatriotic about marching for a (quite possibly futile) war to end just after observing our sorrow over another (quite positively futile) war (WWI – ps find me an historian who thinks it did the world any good)

Last edited 5 months ago by Desmond Wolf
Tommy Abdy Collins
Tommy Abdy Collins
5 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Great idea but sadly impractical – particularly taking account of our dysfunctional police force led by a useless Chief Constable and backed up by an equally useless deputy.

Dengie Dave
Dengie Dave
5 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Arthur, do you honestly think any of those responses you mention above are going to be implemented? My view is that that boat sailed long ago

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

But how do you do that?

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
5 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Good luck deporting three quarters of the population who agree with a ceasefire.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
5 months ago

Very thoughtful essay. These people hate us, they want to destroy our prosperity and freedom, and they are pushing free speech to the breaking point.

So what do we do? I would reluctantly support their right to protest this weekend, but at some point they have to be held accountable.

You can’t have people running around openly celebrating the slaughter, rape and kidnapping of civilians. I also noticed the cowards in the photo accompanying the essay are all wearing masks.

It’s a wicked problem for sure. We need to eradicate the Marxist, authoritarian ideology that has infected so many of our institutions, but how do you do that without becoming authoritarian yourself?

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

It’s a gross generalisation and distortion to say “These people hate us, they want to destroy our prosperity and freedom, and they are pushing free speech to the breaking point”. The police themselves pointed out that the marchers have been peaceful, and the organisers cooperative. There are people from all backgrounds at the marches and sit-downs. If you don’t like the protestor’s message, that’s your right, but you’re committing an ad hominem attack in your post.
I happen to think it would be divisive for any protest to go ahead on Remembrance Sunday, but I’ve never known anyone paying much attention to Armistice day (Nov. 11th) – it’s just because it falls on a Saturday this year, abutting Remembrance Sunday, that a fuss is being made, especially by disingenuous, populist politicians like Suella Braverman and Rishi Sunak.

Last edited 5 months ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Andrew M
Andrew M
5 months ago

Most of our politicians are disingenuous, so that’s not making much of an accusation. See plastic Starmer for starters.
The march is in support of Hamas, which is a proscribed islamic terrorist group, so the fact that many of those attending are dim fellow travelers, many of them marching in support of an organisation that would exterminate them given the opportunity, is ironic.

George Venning
George Venning
5 months ago
Reply to  Andrew M

The march is being organised by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign under the slogan National March for Paestine – Ceasefire Now.
https://twitter.com/PSCupdates
The Met says it can find no grounds to prevent the march from going ahead. And, of course, the provision or expression of support for a proscribed terrorist organisation is a criminal offense. So, if the Metropolitian Police thought that the March was in support of Hamas, it would be duty-bound to shut the march down.
So to put this as gently as I can, you are allowing your prejudices to prevent you from perceiving the obvious.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
5 months ago

Peaceful and cooperative? Really? Considering that according to The Telegraph a significant portion of the organisers have a direct connection to Hamas, these are not adjectives I would choose to describe these groups and individuals! I have personally witnessed a similar protest whilst on holiday in Vienna, Austria in October, and once again, “cooperative and peaceful” were not fitting descriptions for what I saw and heard!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/06/former-hamas-chief-behind-pro-palestine-armistice-day-march/

A D Kent
A D Kent
5 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

‘according to the Telegraph’…

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
5 months ago

But what if the “gross generalization” is merely repeating what comes from the protesters themselves? Are you ok with replacing our Western values with Sharia law? That is their stated intention, not our gross generalization.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
5 months ago

They’re not out there chanting free Palestine, we want a two state solution. The overwhelming majority of these people, Muslim and non Muslim, think Israel and the west are colonial oppressors and they are the oppressed. It’s a divisive ideology that seeks to destroy the oppressors.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago

They could march another Saturday.

George Venning
George Venning
5 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

But, in a free country, there’s no reason why they should have to.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago
Reply to  George Venning

When Police arrest people for a wrong tweet are we in a free country? The decision to accept free speech is very subjective now; anything which fits a Cultural Marxist/Third Worldism view is acceptable; others are not.

james elliott
james elliott
5 months ago

That’s a very, very English name given that you sound exactly like someone who loathes our traditions and quite possibly isn’t really from here at all.

Are you sure your name isn’t really one of the multiple variations of ‘Mohammed’ that the ignorant and obtuse insist on calling all their male children?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
5 months ago
Reply to  james elliott

Come off it Elliot that is well OTT!
Have you never heard of Thomas Paine? For that is who William represents.

George Venning
George Venning
5 months ago

It’s not “OTT”, it’s straight up racism.
James. For heaven’s sake do better.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago
Reply to  james elliott

I respect Remembrance Sunday and also bought a poppy from a vendor in Central London, as I do every year. Yes, it is a very English name; I’m named after my grandfather, although that’s no concern of yours. Is Elliott a Hebraic name by any chance?

Last edited 5 months ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
5 months ago

Certainly only the Mail wrote about the fires in Edinburgh, the violence in Bradford etc. So they were ‘ mainly peaceful’.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
5 months ago

A good innings William, 51 after 11 hours at the wicket!

“A bumping pitch and a blinding light, ten to make and the match to win

.”

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago

Yes indeed. Probably time for a tea break.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago

Year ago I was having a drink with a woman detective constable in Bradford. So I said to he ” Presumably you speak Urdu ” she look amazed and shook her head. The Authorities need people with the same fluency as the Indian Civil Service in Arabic, Urdu, Turkish, Farsi, Punjabi and Pushtun plus an understanding of Islam and Muslim Groups. Instead they use members of various Muslim Groups.
The simple approach would be to recruit ex SIS Middle East Experts. The anglican Church in the Middle Est has some excellent scholars. When dealing with Hamas one needs an underrstanding of Shiite Theology and the various polical changes in Iran back to Shaikh Fazlollah Nuri. In 1906 Constitutionalists in Iran adopted the French Revolutions charter of human rights which was rejected by Nuri.
The Nuri/ Khomeini position completely rejects all Western ideas of human rights as Unislamic.
William you show no understanding of the theological roots of Hamas and therefore do not appreciate the problems with dealing with them. It is theology: theology as politcs and one cannot divide the two in the Khoemeini / Khamenei World.
Ali Khamenei – Wikipedia
Many of the women would be horrified to understand the Shiite view of women expressed by Khomeini.
Jews voting fro Hitler in 1933, comes to mind.

james goater
james goater
5 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

What a valuable contribution to the discourse. Thank you, Mr Hedges. (Sadly, am reading days after the discussion passed).

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago
Reply to  james goater

Thank you. The basic history and theology is being ignored without which one cannot imagine the scale of the problem.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

You have to know the difference between right and wrong and decide even though it is a risk. It is called leadership.

Toby Bray
Toby Bray
5 months ago

“to call for the deportation of citizens who actively seek the demolition of our culture is to surrender our principles to the very people who oppose them. It is to resign oneself to authoritarianism in a perverse effort to defeat it.”

Completely idiotic statement.

It ignores the fact that these people are not a tiny, insignificant minority any more. We’re importing tens or hundreds of thousands of them every year – and these are people who think we’re weak and useless & who simply want to take control. They’re not ‘persuaded’ by us nobly sticking to our liberal principles. They mock those principles & take advantage of us. Plus they have ever-increasing political power, and they know it.

Try saying “I’m a pacifist” to an oncoming army. You’re going to get massacred.

Last edited 5 months ago by Toby Bray
Richard Pearse
Richard Pearse
5 months ago
Reply to  Toby Bray

Agreed- as (US) Justice Jackson noted in a case during WWII: “The Constitution is not a suicide pact.”

Speech is not “free” (as in a “‘free for all’) if it threatens violence. The holdings that defined “fighting words” (which are not protected) have been desecrated by the relativists on our Supreme Court over time, but was defined (as recently as 1942) as:

Words that by there very utterance TEND TO
(1). inflict injury as (generally understood – related to the legal definition of assault) AND tend to
(2). Incite an immediate breach of the peace (as generally understood).

Short and sweet. Again, liberal values don’t require that we fall on our sword as the barbarians try to destroy liberal values.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  Richard Pearse

Wellsaid.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Toby Bray

Like the Trojan horse incident.

james elliott
james elliott
5 months ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

Trojan camel, in this case.

Possibly Trojan donkey.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
5 months ago
Reply to  Toby Bray

Massacred only if he is lucky. Slowly and methodically tortured to death on video is more likely. I wonder if Ole Andy has ever learned what an impalement entails?
“References to impalement in Babylonia and the Neo-Assyrian Empire are found as early as the 18th century BC.”

N Satori
N Satori
5 months ago

If we renege on our principles at the very moment when they are most imperilled, we risk undermining the very foundations upon which our civilisation is built.

So says Andrew Doyle.
And yet there is a dilemma. Those principles are easily exploited by those who actually despise “very foundations upon which our civilisation is built” and would dearly love to tear down society and rebuild it to plans in keeping with their ideology. If your number one principle is freedom of expression then whatever is expressed matters much less than the right to express it.
Will public opinion and rational argument really serve to keep the intolerant in check when the young and Woke, who are growing in number so rapidly, ring-fence their beliefs by shutting down or ridiculing rational debate?

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
5 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

There is no dilemma with regards to whether a demonstration should be banned.
Yes there is a big correlation between people who will match in support of Hamas and people who despise our society and culture and are a threat to it.

But people are allowed to demonstrate peacefully. It really is true that if we start banning demonstrations for causes we don’t like we are as bad as those people.

The answer is to let the demonstration go ahead but to arrest every single person who carries out, or threatens or incites violence.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
5 months ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

And if there are too many threatening or inciting violence , then police will just stand by, as they usually do, and as the organisers know they will.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

That means a big risk though. What if we let it go ahead and there is much violence? What would you say to those people who suffered from the violence? Sometimes safety should be put above freedom of speech perhaps? I don’t find that there is much speech to give freedom to just a lot of chanting.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
5 months ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

I am a firm believer in our U.S. 1st Amendment rights when those who are speaking or protesting are legal citizens, regardless of the topic. But when the protesters are here illegally, drawing benefits from the taxpayer and they openly call for the destruction of the host society, I must acknowledge that it causes me to pause and reflect.

Sharon Overy
Sharon Overy
5 months ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

Then let them march at another time – when they can’t disrupt Remembrance, for that is the intention.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
5 months ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

We ban peaceful demos all the time, as Doyle must know. There just has to be a suspicion of a reaction or threat from the other side. Never a problem in this nation of moral cowards.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
5 months ago

This is so typically limp it makes me angry. Our 30 year ideological multicultural State has totally surrendered to whichever identitarian street Mob – BLM and now Muslim – frightens it the most. It surrendered the old principle of free speech decades ago, once it saw Rushdie books burning in Bradford and it is pathetic to pretend it flourishes here now. Soon a cowardly Labour will bring in their new Blasphemy/Race Equality laws forbidding any criticism of Islam. The State Militia are allowing aggressive Muslims & their Progressive allies – who have not truly denounced a terrible Pogrom (where are the moderate Muslim voices?) – to tear down Kidnap pix and drive the tiny Jewish population off the streets, just like in Paris. No march should be permitted within 5 miles of the Cenotaph on Armistice Day. That ceremony trumps everything. If that silence is ruined by vile chants Joe Public will get the message loud and clear.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

At the moment they are on their knees begging for the march not to go through Whitehall. Let’s hope that changes to “it cannot go through” if they get no answer.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
5 months ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

Agree. It cannot and need not go through near Cenotaph. If they do not move location, they will have shown enormous provocative disrespect.

Mark Phillips
Mark Phillips
5 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Where are the NF when you need them? Mostly joking.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
5 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

But they wont be stopped.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
5 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

You are the identarian street mob here.

Last edited 5 months ago by David Lindsay
Steve Jobs
Steve Jobs
5 months ago

While I understand the point the author is trying to make – the article leaves out a fairly key (and well known) caveat around free speech

In John Stuart Mill’s “On Liberty,” the principle concerning freedom of speech is often summarised by the “harm principle.”

Mill argues that the only justification for interfering with someone’s liberty of action, including freedom of speech, is to prevent harm to others.

His argument suggests that people should be free to express any opinion, no matter how unpopular or distasteful, as long as it doesn’t incite violence or harm to others. This includes the idea that society or the state should not suppress or punish speech merely because it is offensive or controversial.

However, speech that incites violence or harms others does not enjoy this protection and can be rightfully restricted.

If we assume that the protesters will be asking for puppies and ice cream to be handed out to all – then fine. If not, then perhaps the motives and aims of the protestors should be reevaluated using the harm principle as laid out by Mills all those years ago.

Robbie K
Robbie K
5 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jobs

Or maybe they will end up punching poppy sellers, again
Poppy seller veteran, 78, tells how he was punched by pro-Palestine protesters

A D Kent
A D Kent
5 months ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Just on the off chance that someone comes back here to look – here’s what the Police say about that alleged incident having checked all the CCTV and interviewed witnesses:

https://x.com/BTP/status/1722332871988244940?s=20

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
5 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jobs

UK law allows for those who incite or glorify violence to be prosecuted.

Unless JS Mill trumps Popper, we have no state.

Last edited 5 months ago by Steve Murray
Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jobs

The problem is how “harm” gets redefined to include the emotional harm done by hearing things you consider offensive. The woke not only exploit this but exaggerate it – refusing to use someones preferred pronouns = transgenocide.
Direct incitement to commit illegal acts should be banned but nothing else.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
5 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jobs

Well said. There is a world of difference from expressions of differing opinions in
Cyber space & media and the presence of mass 100 000 physical Mobs on the streets. The latter has the far greater power to menace and to intimidate. It is how our sense of order and security can be challenged – Bastille, Tehran. This is why Mills was right. The all too craven Police must get this call right. London’s streets are already effectively Jew-free. Stay home Jews. This cannot be right. Its wake up time for the all too silent Moderate Muslim leadership here as well as on the West Bank and Gaza.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jobs

Very good point. We have to risk thinking outside the box sometimes.

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
5 months ago

The contention that competing parties exercising free speech and debate will lead to a society where the triumph of reason and truth will eventually prevail over unreason and lies feels hopelessly naĂŻve
I have read and seen much of Andrew’s work and he is clearly an intelligent man, steeped in Enlightenment values. If everyone else, or at least the vast bulk, were similarly committed to those values, then I would be inclined to agree with him.
However Enlightenment values run, to a large extent, contrary to human nature, in which are base instincts are powerful forces that are difficult to subdue. To continue and prevail they need constant generational societal reinforcement in a similar manner to religion; from the cradle. to the grave.
But through importation of millions whose culture is antagonistic to those values, and through he indoctrination of children and young adults in to a malign form of Leftism – a perverse “progressivism” which smashes away at the pillars which form the foundation of western civilisation – the proportion of the population committed to those values, and who can brought to see truth and reason through free discussion, is rapidly declining, a process that will only accelerate. The Enlightenment is being snuffed out.
History is replete with examples of great civilisations with sophisticated, intellectual cultures that fell to barbarians who took joy in smashing them to pieces. I expect many of them thought they could reason with the barbarians and convince them that they were destroying something precious to no purpose. But they were overwhelmed and destroyed.
Only by removing the foreign cultures and retaking the institutions – particularly the education system – will our culture survive. That will entail us fighting by any means fair or foul, with more commitment, aggression and purpose, to defeat those who would send us back in to the dark ages.

N Satori
N Satori
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Very good – an uptick from me. Yet your core argument, summed up in your final paragraph, tells of a battle that needs to be fought. Yet where will this fight take place? In the forums and opinion columns of online media? What are these ‘fair or foul’ means. Will ‘commitment, aggression and purpose’ be just more strongly worded opinion and ‘forceful’ argument? Without a popular grassroots movement of some sort power in our institutions is bound to be taken by activists. Their guilt-selling, moral browbeating intimidates all but the most determined opposition.
Remember when we all laughed at those over-sensitive snowflake students who were due for a hard lesson in reality once they left uni? Well, they are now staffing the admin offices of public and private institutions all around us – snowflake sensitivities fully intact. So who’s getting the hard lesson now?

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
5 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

You mentioned what I regard as the answer: “a popular grassroots movement”.
The best party on offer at the present time is Reform UK. But as we see from the polls, they are struggling to get the momentum to break the Tory’s de facto position as the party of the Right.
In other European countries, under PR, large, traditional parties of the Right that followed the Tory’s path of surrendering ideologically to the Left, have been whittled down to electoral minnows and replaced by parties embracing real right-wing, conservative policies.
In Britain, the Tories can count on FPTP to ensure they benefit from the wasted vote argument. Getting Reform UK in to the position where there is enough support to break that barrier is where attention should be directed.
So far Reform UK has relied primarily on gaining support through publicising its policies in the media. That can only take it so far given that “progressives” act as gatekeepers for much of the MSM.
Reform needs to become, as you said, ” a popular grassroots movement”. It needs to build up an a proper organisation just as the Labour movement once did. It needs local constituency associations, an army of activists who will go out in to the pubs, the workplaces, the colleges, who will organise local community events to bring voters in to discuss their concerns and hear Reform’s message. In short, they need to go to voters directly, whenever and wherever they are.
After the next election the Tories will be routed. Reform need to be ready to take advantage of that period of weakness to push itself forward as the natural home of right-wing conservative voters. To do that it needs to set up the organisation I suggest. A good place to start would be to target every Local Conservative Association in an effort to persuade them to defect to become Reform UK associations. Pinch as much of the disillusioned Tory grassroots as possible.

Last edited 5 months ago by Marcus Leach
Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Have you told them that and will they listen? I never hear them mentioned anywhere but they shall get their chance to go to the doors, but then it might be too late?

N Satori
N Satori
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

What I would most like to see in the short term is serious investigative journalism exposing to full public view the extent to which our major institutions have been colonised by activists. Raising public awareness of this should also raise public anger at the way in which pressure groups have sidelined our democratic system to force through their own agenda.
Awareness, however, is not enough. Recent exposures of the influence of Stonewall and of Trans activism at the Tavistock have not brought their influence to a halt.
A movement is needed to channel public anger and provide a genuine realistic alternative. Without a strong fight-back movement to get behind people will feel they just have to settle for whatever the political class decides is good for them.

A D Kent
A D Kent
5 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

That battle has been taking place across the globe – and it’s been us who have been driving it with a great deal of the foul and very little of the fair. We (& by that I mean the UK) have spread Islamist extremism across the globe – by directly supporting & arming them in Afghanistan in the 1980s, Kosovo in the 1990s and Libya and Syria in the 2010s to name but a few. Likewise the US & Israel have been upto their disgusting necks in this too. You can’t funnel billions of dollars into supporting jihadis (the US Diplomatic cable leaks of the 00s have abundant evidence of this) and then pretend this is all a cultural thing.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
5 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

I was trying to upvote this comment but it wouldnt accept my vote

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Faith is the hope of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
5 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

So true! Look at Partygate pix. The Tory politicians attended leaving dos and left, or walked into meetings to work where there was a cake. The people who partied danced and rolled in the booze were all young civil servants, the vast majority of whom would be pro Labour ‘Greys’, fully progressive in outlook, just doing a stressful job at the HQ of a national crisis…and forgetting the absurd obscene Rules they collectively had manufactured. There was no Tory Party in the Cummings and BBC manufactured Partygate. It was the Civil Service who partied.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Which is why war has defined humanity since its inception.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

That is what we are up against. Christianity and prayer has been kicked out of our schools being replaced by transgender and gay teaching. Many teachers opposing this were sacked so the battle appears to have been practically been lost in our schools. All we can handle is ourselves trying to do the right thing. If we do that there is a chance of stopping the rot but not a certainty.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

Religion shouldn’t be in schools.

Jon Barrow
Jon Barrow
5 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

There are some foundational flaws at the heart of Enlightenment thinking. One (particularly French) strand is that individuals and societies are ‘blank slates’, which can be re-moulded from first principles: another that ‘the long arc of history tends to truth and justice’ – or something similar. There is no reason this latter should be so, beyond wishful thinking, just because it has been the general trend since, say, 1945. Modern progressivism (or Wokeism) is actually a bitter fruit of Enlightenment thought; philosophers like J S Mill aren’t to blame for this, they were just philosophising about liberal ideas in stable and conservative (by today’s standard) societies. But it is Enlightenment ideas that have brought us to where we are.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
5 months ago

If you want to know more about the groups organizing the protest this weekend, there is a must-read article in the Telegraph. Half the groups have direct links to Hamas.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/06/former-hamas-chief-behind-pro-palestine-armistice-day-march/

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

If I want to know more about anything, I wouldn’t be consulting The Telegraph.

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
5 months ago

I spent a month reading the Telegraph every day, sometimes through gritted teeth. It’s really not an objective, or even a truthful newspaper.

David Brightly
David Brightly
5 months ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

Example, please. We don’t know if you are objective or even truthful.

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
5 months ago
Reply to  David Brightly

I can’t give you verbatim examples but this is what I think I have found. Some Telegraph writers are well worth reading but they tend to write about niche subjects. Others say things that are true but then twist these statements out of context in ways that are dishonest, others are cynical. I remember one hysterical headline which shrieked ‘These eco fanatics will be the death of civilisation.’ That’s unconscious self-parody.

David Brightly
David Brightly
5 months ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

Allister Heath, 23 August, The lunacy of climate change fanatics is driving humanity to extinction, perhaps?

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
5 months ago
Reply to  David Brightly

Sounds right. That’s a worse headline than I remembered.

Last edited 5 months ago by Doug Mccaully
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
5 months ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

The headline reads like it’s an opinion piece. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If they are dressing it up as actual news, it would be different.

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
5 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

How would that work though? Will we become so irritated by people gluing themselves to stuff that we refuse to procreate? It’s a really silly headline

David Brightly
David Brightly
5 months ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

Subheading: Plunging fertility rates are the crisis of the century, yet extremists cheer it in their narrow-minded crusade. It is an opinion piece.

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
5 months ago
Reply to  David Brightly

How far would rates have to fall before we become extinct?

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
5 months ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

These Telegraph writers you talk about are the norm for journalists these days. They abound in most, if not all so-called ‘newspapers’.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
5 months ago

The problem is that both sides believe everything they read in their favorite propaganda is factual information. If the NYT wrote that gravity no longer existed, many of their loyal readers would start jumping off roofs.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

You have to be a member to read it.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
5 months ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

Do an internet search. You should be able to read it for free.

Lindsey Thornton
Lindsey Thornton
5 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Thanks Jim, as most sensible people know, the planned march on Armistice Day is not a ‘protest’ march; it’s a malevolently planned incitement for violence against Jews parade, pure and simple. The significance of the day will cause maximum hurt to already traumatised Jewish people who are experiencing the worst antisemitic atrocity since the Holocaust. That’s why it must be banned. It’s got nothing to do with free speech.
You must have read Allison Pearson’s excellent piece in the Telegraph (22 October, the paywall has been removed from this important article) https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/22/british-friends-of-israel-anti-semitism/
Allison will be standing by Churchill’s statue in Parliament Square on Saturday, standing in support of our Jewish community, who no longer feel safe in their own country.
I’ve signed The October Declaration at britishfriendsofisrael.org … it’s the least I can do.

Rob N
Rob N
5 months ago

Deportation of citizens? No. Deportation of legal or illegal non-citizen immigrants? Absolutely. And the latter in all cases.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Rob N

What if it comes to them or us in Britain as it could do eventually?

Stephen Walsh
Stephen Walsh
5 months ago

“Protesters who take to the streets to celebrate murder fall into this category because they are self-discrediting. They are impervious to reason, but their sentiments are so essentially rebarbative that there is no risk of public opinion shifting in their favour.” This truly is wishful thinking in the face of repeated experience. The Nazis won elections, Hamas won elections, ZANU-PF win elections, Sinn Fein win elections. In each case their celebration of violence and murderers created a frisson of glamour and impression of strength which were central to their appeal. The author makes some well intentioned points, although if was Jewish Londoner he might feel “a commitment to free speech and liberal ideals” rather less comforting if in practice this meant a curtailment of his rights to free movement and free expression. A society has an obligation to defend itself. Allowing its streets to be taken over by Nazi and Communist paramilitaries was not a sign of Weimar Germany’s resolute commitment to liberal values. If they are to survive liberal values need to be actively defended when attacked – cowering in the corner while being denounced and undermined is not evidence of a commitment to free speech.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
5 months ago

No. Supporters of terrorism must be deported. Chanting “rape their mothers, rape their daughters” through bullhorns on city streets is not free speech, it is calling for bloodshed. How is it that “silence is violence” on the one hand, while openly yelling “gas the Jews” is a protected right? This cultural ugliness has been excused for far too long. Societies make their own laws of acceptable conduct. Nothing about this is acceptable and civilized nations should stop putting up with it.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
5 months ago

Those who support Palestine should start with protests against Hamas rather than against Israel.

JOHN KANEFSKY
JOHN KANEFSKY
5 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

They should of course do both.
Hamas are beyond the pale, but so are some of the ministers of the Israeli government, who Netanyahu relies on to remain in power. As always; it’s about competing and irreconcilable claims on the land (and water). It’s not just the militant Palestinians who want all the land from the river to the sea, many right wing Israelis want this too and would like to expel the residents of the West Bank. That’s why the situation is unsolvable unless all people living in Israel and Palestine becomes citizens of one state, which one suspects neither side will never agree.
Deeply pessimistic.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago
Reply to  JOHN KANEFSKY

A classic “turf war”, with an ethno-religious subplot. A bit like the situation re. the Irish Republic and N. Ireland.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
5 months ago
Reply to  JOHN KANEFSKY

Would you like to live next door to a family that lives only to work towards your extermination?

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

You mean the Netanyahu’s?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  JOHN KANEFSKY

Exactly. The settlers are taking advantage of the war to push even further into Palestine, literally forcing families from their homes. I saw video of this and even though I am, of course, against Hamas I found the images heartbreaking. These land grabs are inexcusable and cruel and are what provokes protesters.

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
5 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Pro-Palestine is just a facade for Anti-Israel. Pro-Palestine does not mean a peaceful two-state solution. It means Palestine from the river to the sea. Listen to the chants of the demonstrators.

Last edited 5 months ago by Vijay Kant
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  Vijay Kant

That’s the protesters not necessarily what the Palestinian people want.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Exactly!!

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
5 months ago

What are we to make of middle-class bien pensants asserting that mass murder requires “context”, of the overt antisemitism, and of a police force that makes excuses for theocrats calling for “jihad” on the streets of London? For some, this is proof of the failure of multiculturalism.

Most people, outside of a tiny bubble of bien pensants and the unthinking softies who just avoid trouble, needed no proof of the failure of multiculturalism. In fact, they need convincing of any successes.

Jon Barrow
Jon Barrow
5 months ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

Why would anyone think that ‘multiculturalism’ made any sense in the first place? It’s pathetic, in the Orwellian ‘unity in diversity’ or ‘peace through war’ mould. A single state needs to have a mainstream set of values, traditions and possibly distinctive ethnic group. The world has always been multi-cultural, which is one major reason the world has always had wars.

Bronwen Saunders
Bronwen Saunders
5 months ago

Two points: First, the principle of free speech can only be upheld if our other key principles are upheld as well, most notably the rule of law. Allowing tens of thousands of people to break the law with impunity by entering the country illegally is not upholding the rule of law. On the contrary, it is undermining it. To continue to insist on free speech may be worthy, but it is also dangerous, as we are now seeing with the (seditious) calls for Jihad. 
The second point is that freedom of speech is already contingent on other factors. As another commentator has pointed out, no one has the right to shout “Fire!” in a crowded theatre. So safety can be invoked to restrict it. But so can the potential harm to other members of the public. If a pro-life demonstration in the vicinity of an abortion clinic can be outlawed on grounds of the emotional distress it would cause to patients, then surely a disrespectful and divisive mass gathering in London on the day we set aside for remembering our war dead can also be outlawed?

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago

Some are being charged just for thinking near an abortion clinic. It was perceived that they must have been praying. So freedom to think appears to be under attack as well.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

That’s absurd.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
5 months ago

Hardly the same thing.

David Wildgoose
David Wildgoose
5 months ago

It has always been widely acknowledged that you don’t have the “Freedom of Speech” to shout “Fire!” in a crowded theatre.

We are in an extremely volatile situation right now and it should be obvious that a demonstration that will doubtless be calling for extermination of the Jews in Israel, deliberately chosen to take place on Remembrance Day, falls into that category.

Anybody disagreeing with the above should re-evaluate their support for “Freedom of Speech” when someone says something considered unacceptable in polite society, such as supporting Enoch Powell.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago

“…a demonstration that will doubtless be calling for extermination of the Jews in Israel, deliberately chosen to take place on Remembrance Day, falls into that category.”
You have proof that marchers will be calling for the extermination of Jews in Israel? I will expect the police to be making thousands of arrests then. You are being provocative and ignorant, especially as the march will be held on Saturday 11th November, and Remembrance Sunday is the following day.

E Wyatt
E Wyatt
5 months ago

I doubt the police have the capacity to make thousands of arrests.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
5 months ago
Reply to  E Wyatt

Kettling thousands of people in the West End is something they know how to do

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago

They have repeatedly called for the extermination of Israel and are not exacctly friendly with the Jewish people in our land.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
5 months ago

From river to sea and Khaybar are chants calling for the killing of Jewish men and enslavement of women.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago

Well we were warned by EP weren’t we? I remember him saying they are not like us. Perhaps an understatement. The west rose on certain godly principles and they will fall on rejecting those principles.

Last edited 5 months ago by Tony Conrad
Jonathan Nash
Jonathan Nash
5 months ago

I don’t see that a serious committment to free speech requires us to accept a right for anybody to express their views anytime, anywhere, and without regard to the rights of others who do not wish to be distracted from acts of respect for our war dead. It is hardly North Korean-style tyranny to rule that there should be no marches in the vicinity of the Cenotaph for a few hours between Saturday morning and Sunday afternoon.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

Lets hope we learn something from these free speech discusions. One thing that comes out is that if the speech incites violence against others it should not be allowed to be expressed. Jihad is always against those who do not comply to that religion.