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The post-America war has begun Biden's delusions are finally being exposed

The start of a new World War? (Wathiq Khuzaie/Getty Images)

The start of a new World War? (Wathiq Khuzaie/Getty Images)


November 10, 2023   8 mins

Less than a month ago, President Biden was asked on camera if the United States could simultaneously bring conflicts in Ukraine and the Middle East to a palatable conclusion. “We’re the United States of America, for God’s sake,” he responded, “the most powerful nation in the history of the world.” A few weeks later, facing domestic pressure to order Israel to cease its bloody bombing campaign against Gaza, Biden administration officials instead proclaimed their total powerlessness to influence its ally. Similarly, Biden’s early proclamations that America would support Ukraine “for as long as it takes” have run into the brick wall of American political dysfunction: as long as it takes, it transpires, in practice means just under two years.

Different wars with different causes, both Gaza and Ukraine reveal, in their own unique ways, the limitations of American imperial power. Neither would have been launched by either Russia or by Hamas — perhaps with Iran behind it — without the confidence that America’s ability to defend the world it created in its own image was radically weakened. The Pax Americana is already dead: the world is now suffering more wars than at any time since 1945. Worse, a vast gap has opened up between America’s stated commitments to its allies, and its ability to enforce its will: entire nations could be swallowed in the gulf between rhetoric and reality.

To remedy this, we must first cast off the illusions that led us here. In all this recent horror, it has been a salutary experience observing the contrast in reactions summoned up by the punitive air campaigns carried out by America’s geopolitical foes, such as Syria and Russia, and those carried out with America’s military and diplomatic support by its ally Israel. Pundits who rightly condemned Assad’s reckless bombing of hospitals, schools, bakeries and civilian homes now urge us to consider the painful necessity for Israel to bomb the same civilian targets in Gaza. Equally, many of those now loudly outraged by Israel’s air campaign previously welcomed Assad and Russia’s indiscriminate bombing of what they called terrorists in Syria. Objectively, it is difficult to see any significant moral difference between the two campaigns, between their rival sets of supporters, or between the rival great powers enabling them.

Indeed, in just one month, Israel’s air strikes against Gaza, the heaviest bombing campaign since the Second World War, have caused between a quarter and half the deaths of the entire four-year long bloody siege of the similarly-sized city of Aleppo. But it is misguided to view any of this as a failing of the American-led liberal order: it is the American-led liberal order, working as it was always intended to work. Morality is only cited to punish America’s enemies: when it’s America’s allies whose actions disgust the world, nuances and diplomatic cover can always be found.

Yet for all the political damage it has caused the US, it is doubtful whether Biden’s delicate dance — shielding Israel from international condemnation while washing his hands of the bloody results — is even in Israel’s best interests. A month ago, the sheer unbridled bloodlust displayed in the atrocities carried out by Hamas won Israel a degree of international sympathy unseen in decades. It would have taken political dysfunction of the gravest and most reckless kind to have squandered this sympathy, and incredibly, Israel’s government has managed to do so in just a few weeks. Every day, every smartphone in the world brings forth new horrors from Gaza: whole families extinguished, dead children pulled from the ruins of their homes, entire districts reduced to rubble in an instant. Even those supportive of Israel’s campaign to root out Hamas have been horrified by the methods chosen to do so. By inviting such carnage against the Palestinian people, eroding Israel’s legitimacy, Hamas have already won a dark and twisted victory.

Just last week, following the mass killing of civilians in Jabalia refugee camp in an Israeli attempt to strike one Hamas commander, Biden sent his Secretary of State Antony Blinken to Jerusalem to warn the Israeli government that it must take far greater care to avoid civilian harm, telling the cameras in anguished tones: “I’ve seen images of Palestinian children pulled from wreckage of buildings. When I look into their eyes through the TV screen, I see my own children. How can we not?” But on the same day, just as Blinken girded himself to shore up Arab support for America’s position, Israel bombed ambulances at Gaza’s al-Shifa hospital, killing even more civilians and stoking even more outrage. America can neither deter direct attacks on its closest ally, nor rein in Israel’s excessive response: the greatest power on Earth is a helpless spectator to events directly impacting its own standing.

Before Gaza City has even fallen, then, the war against Hamas has become a diplomatic disaster of the greatest magnitude for both Israel and the United States. Biden has hitched his political survival and America’s global reputation to an Israeli government wildly unpopular in Israel itself, whose leader Netanyahu is blamed for redistributing military resources towards the illegal settlements of the West Bank, enabling the Hamas incursion. Netanyahu seemingly has no strategy other than remaining in power and out of jail for as long as possible, whatever the consequences for his country or the wider region. There is no plan for what to do with Gaza or its people once Hamas is defeated, and no belief that the US can use the tragedy to finally resolve the conflict. America’s aim of reordering the Middle East into a peaceful equilibrium favourable for Israel and united against Iran is now in tatters. Arab states, long subjected to moral pressure to take the West’s side on Ukraine, can rightfully point to America’s hypocrisy when lecturing on human rights and the need to protect civilians. In Gaza, America’s dwindling moral case for imperial hegemony was finally buried beneath the rubble.

At home, Biden’s voter base is bitterly divided: the dramatic scenes of the new pro-Palestinian activist base obscure the broader new consensus among a majority of younger voters — the future Democratic base — against continued American support for Israel. This is itself now the greatest single strategic threat to the Jewish state, creating a far more perilous dynamic than Hamas’s brutalities or Hezbollah’s missile armoury. The root cause of this situation is the Israeli hubris caused by decades of seemingly limitless American support, which allowed the Palestine conflict to smoulder unresolved. With Israel confident that America’s backing was eternal, and America confident that its power could always shield Israel from external threats, the two countries found themselves locked in a dysfunctional embrace. Israel is now dependent on American support as never before, while American support for Israel has never been so domestically contested. Instead of ensuring Israel’s security, decades of American indulgence permitted Netanyahu to lead the country towards disaster.

Soon, according to US officials, international and domestic pressure will force Biden to insist upon a ceasefire. Yet any Israeli halting of hostilities before the total destruction of Hamas will be perceived worldwide as a Hamas victory, and a defeat for both Israel and the United States. A more astute American president — indeed, a truer friend of Israel — would have constrained Netanyahu’s response from the start, pushing the Jewish state to accept higher military casualties as the price of assuaging world opinion. But the current situation, in which America assumes the blame for the civilian casualties of Netanyahu’s punitive campaign while unconvincingly wringing its hands over the bloodshed, was the worst of all responses.

As Gaza holds the world’s attention, Ukraine’s leadership is struggling to maintain focus on its own existential conflict. But in its own distinct way, the Ukraine war is another tragic example of the widening gulf between America’s imperial commitments and its dwindling capabilities. On the very first day of the invasion, Russia began the war as a far richer, stronger and more powerful country than Ukraine, and nearly two years later, for all its battlefield reversals since then, that basic equation has not changed. Again, the gap between what Biden promised and what he could deliver has proved fatal. By promising US support of a duration and extent greater than he could deliver, Biden encouraged the Zelenskyy administration to pursue war aims that have now proved beyond Ukraine’s abilities. By allowing Zelenskyy to determine the endpoint of victory, and publicly abstaining from outlining what an acceptable outcome would look like, Biden encouraged Ukrainian planners to broaden their goals from a return to the country’s de facto 2022 borders to a return to its de jure 1991 borders and then improbably onwards to the total defeat and disintegration of the Russian state.

To this end, the combined effort of the United States and Europe turned to arming and training the Ukrainian army for its much-vaunted summer offensive, in the hope of forcing a humbled Putin into peace negotiations. Instead, after months of bloodshed and sacrifice, the Ukrainian army has achieved a tenuous hold on two depopulated hamlets a few kilometres from their starting point. With the Ukrainian offensive stalled, the momentum has now swung back to Russia, incrementally biting into the Ukrainian lines, though with great losses of its own, all across the eastern front. This winter, Ukraine will find itself on the defensive once again. Much of the Ukrainian army’s superiority in morale and technical ability was wasted this summer on the misguided southern offensive and on the fruitless attempts to first hold and then recapture Bakhmut, and the country will find itself entering 2024 in a far worse position than it began 2023.

Within the Ukrainian leadership, the recriminations have already begun. Ukraine’s top general, Zaluzhny, has described the war as a stalemate, and been condemned for his frankness by Zelenskyy’s staff. Ukraine’s fairweather friends in the West, the grifter pundits who talked up every defeat as a victory, helping Western publics view the war as already practically won and Russia’s still untested industrial and military capabilities worthy only of mockery, are now rightfully the target of Ukrainian ire. Outright Ukrainian victory was not impossible, but the work of reordering Western industry necessary to achieve it simply was not done. As US officials leak that Zelenskyy will soon have to face reality and come to the negotiating table, and sources close to Zelenskyy — including his former strategic advisor, Oleksiy Arestovych, now planning a presidential run of his own — brief against him in dramatic terms, Ukrainians will have every right to believe that the initial false promises of unlimited American support given by Biden were, in the end, worse for the country than clearly defined but sustainable support would have been at the beginning of the war.

In both cases, the gap between the Biden administration’s public professions of unlimited support and its private reservations have led its allies into perilous positions. American leaders are given to claiming that their country is not just a state, but an idea: but that idea is increasingly untethered from objective reality. American political turbulence has made even medium-term strategic planning impossible to pursue: allies whose defence relies on American support should observe this worsening trend with alarm.

For countries such as Britain, helpless chicks under America’s wing, the primary lesson is that we should either increase our ability to defend ourselves alone, or limit our self-insertion into the affairs of stronger rival states. For countries such as Israel or Ukraine, fated by geography to exist at the sabre’s edge, the approach of wisdom will be more painful. Israel has no choice but to destroy Hamas, and Ukraine no option but to continue defending itself: if peace talks with Russia were ever viable, there is no reason for Moscow to pursue them now. In both cases, the likelihood is that the wars will grind on to grim and morally unsatisfactory conclusions. In each case, given the constraints on American political will and capability, perhaps a frozen conflict with the ever-present risk of escalation is the best that can now  be achieved.

There is no anti-imperialist glee to be found in the situation we are in. For all its faults, the world that follows American hegemony will hardly be more peaceful or humane than that we have come to know: if anything, the withering of America’s reach is already shaping up to be bloodier than the fall of the Soviet Union. Faced with such a prospect, the task that remains is to help America manage its own decline in as painless a way possible, preventing the conflicts nibbling at the edge of its empire from coalescing into a single war that will consume us all.


Aris Roussinos is an UnHerd columnist and a former war reporter.

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Thor Albro
Thor Albro
6 months ago

It is fatalistic drivel like this (following Fazi’s almost identical dirge from yesterday) that will drive me away from Unherd. Two points:
1) “Israel’s government has managed to [squander international sympathy] in just a few weeks.” Did it occur to Roussinos and his ilk that Israel’s assault on Gaza is to eliminate Hamas to protect their own legitimate national security interests, and not to curry favor from international elites, who apparently see Israel as some sort of abstract Euro-American project?
2) “Hamas has already won.” Who cares, if they cease to exist?
3) The alleged decline and fall of Pax American is obviously part and parcel of the Commander in Chief in any period. Obama and Biden have made it clear to the world’s bad actors that they (like Roussinos, Fazi and most Europeans) are ashamed of America and will not deter barbarism through a muscular show of American strength. Indeed, their actions in office can only be explained as an “anti-American” program: open borders (which means no country), defunding police, emptying the jails, shutting down petroleum, fiscal bankruptcy.
I may loath Trump, but in his 4 years the world was (relatively) at peace. The Abraham accords were the only progress we have seen in the Mid-east in my life time. He correctly called out Xi as a predator. The point is, the Pax Americana is only as healthy as the leaders we are blessed or cursed with.

J Bryant
J Bryant
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

It is fatalistic drivel like this (following Fazi’s almost identical dirge from yesterday) that will drive me away from Unherd.
I’ll be driven away from Unherd for a much more mundane reason: they have once again started running adverts even for paying subscribers. Their latest ads have little flashing inserts that make it hard to concentrate on the articles. I accept ads on sites where I don’t subscribe, but not where I do.

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
6 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Get an Ad-blocker.

Peter B
Peter B
6 months ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Think you’re right – I don’t see any ads on UnHerd. Given I pay, I don’t see why I should.

Howard S.
Howard S.
6 months ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Ublock origin works just fine. If you like the site, subscribe. Help them out that way.

Tony Price
Tony Price
6 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

When you buy a printed newspaper or magazine do you expect it to have no ads in it?

Susie Bell
Susie Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

But the printed papers don’t have ads that flash and jump about, it is harder to ignore them than those printed in ink!

Dermot O'Sullivan
Dermot O'Sullivan
6 months ago
Reply to  Susie Bell

I complained about this to unherd and I don’t see them anymore (the blinking ads).

George Locke
George Locke
6 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

You’re right that printed papers that you buy still have ads, but I think it’s a bit different online – most other online publications that I’m subscribed to don’t show ads to paying readers because they only use online advertising to make revenue from something that is otherwise nominally free to access. That’s why when people pay for something online they don’t expect to see ads. I guess UnHerd really is different from the rest.

Last edited 6 months ago by George Locke
Duane M
Duane M
6 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Yes, if it is a subscription-driven publication. What makes you think otherwise? Or are you simply overwhelmed by the presence of advertising everywhere else?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
6 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

I haven’t seen any ads.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
6 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

I don’t see any ads either. Are you sure it’s coming from Unherd and not from some malware on your computer.

Mary Thomas
Mary Thomas
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

I don’t have ads either.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

The Abraham accords are great, but not nearly as significant as the Egypt-Israel (1979) or Jordan-Israel (1994) peace treaties.
You say you loathe Trump. Any reason that actually matters?

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
6 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I suspect the “loathe Trump” thing is now just the “but, but” common disclaimer. Can’t be seen to give the man credit for anything, including the peace, prosperity, and common sense even those who claim to loathe him enjoyed for four years.

Thor Albro
Thor Albro
6 months ago

I believe I just did give him credit! But he has done nothing for the country for 3 years now.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
6 months ago

That sounds a bit like something an Israeli might have said about Netanyahu. Before October 7th.
But extreme narcissism is not a good trait in a leader; either Netanyahu or Trump. So my fingers are crossed.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
6 months ago

Did the peace really have anything to do with Trump?

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
6 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Yes it must have just been a coincidence. Get help.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
6 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Trumps pushing of shale oil and gas lowered oil prices which reduces income for arab oil producers. Saudi Arabia has a very expensive welfare state. Trump understood America’s greatest power is economic and he used it.When oil prices are $20/barrel , Iran, Russia and arab oil producers supporting Bin laden and friends have no money to cause problems. Russian production costs are $18/ barrel onshore $50/barrel offshore. Also makes wind and solar power very expensive.
Crude oil spread – West Texas Intermediate – Wikipedia

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
6 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I suspect that there’s a large contingent of people that simply consider him detestable because of his personal behavior, his boorishness, his womanizing, his pointless instigating conflicts, his narcissism, his attention seeking behaviors, etc. Some of us are old enough to remember every moronic thing he’s said or done since the 80’s. He was even portrayed as a future President in an animated sitcom as a joke, and that was over 25 years ago before he even entered politics. Much of what he accomplishes is, IMHO, by complete and total accident. I attribute the four years of relative peace as every dictator and aggressor hesitating because they fear the world’s largest military with the 2nd largest nuclear arsenal may well be commanded by a bat sh*t crazy lunatic. Self-preservation is the greatest motivator.

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Perhaps ‘no wars’ was good luck. Perhaps containing China was a combination of good circumstances. Perhaps ‘lowest minority unemployment’ was Obama’s doing. Perhaps getting Nato to pay more of their way was an accident. Perhaps a more conservative Supreme Court was just good timing etc. Nothing of the above was anything to do with Trump, after all he was too busy fighting fake russian collusion and fake impeachments
I would similarly suspect Steve Jolly that any successes you have experienced in life has, you would probably freely admit, was all due to someone else.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
6 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

I would actually. I’m quite the fatalist. I’m of the opinion that most of what happens is out of anyone’s control. It’s not that I believe in complete determinism or predestination or anything like that, more that we’re mostly powerless against forces beyond our control. Our options are invariably limited by our circumstances. We must then choose from these limited options by guessing what the results will be. Sometimes none of the choices are very good. Even in hindsight, we can hardly make a fair evaluation because we don’t know what results the other choices would have yielded.

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Then why criticise Trump. He was as president distinctly better than virtually all the presidents we have had in the recent past.

Last edited 6 months ago by Peter Lee
Will K
Will K
4 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Steve, you may be right that we can’t consistently achieve good results, but I think it’s clear (eg from Mr Biden) that incompetent leaders definitely have the ability to consistently make things worse.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
6 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

Don’t forget they became energy independent under trump as well, while reducing CO2 emissions more than any other country in the world.

Last edited 6 months ago by Jim Veenbaas
Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
6 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

Your’e the man Peter!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

To say that Trump was responsible for 4 years of peace around the world is to attribute him with godlike qualities. No man has that much power much as they might like to have.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
6 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Clare. Mean tweets or WW3. Choose one.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Why are the allegations of rape against President Clinton and the use of a private server by H Clinton and the Clinton Foundation ignored ? Why was Teddy Kennedy leaving a woman in a car to drown ignored? Appears people are very selective in their criticism.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

Israel is almost completely reliant on western backing. If it ever finds that a majority of Americans no longer want to arm it, it will be in deep trouble. Hence the reason PR should play a much bigger role in their activities than it does.
Arrogantly claiming that Israel doesn’t care what others think of it will eventually end up with other countries feeling the same way and withdrawing their support

Arthur G
Arthur G
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Why would a majority of Americans ever support barbarians against a civilized Western country? Outside the bien-pensant classes, the racialists, and the leftist anti-semites, no one does. If a country did to us what Hamas did to Israel, we’d level it. Look at what we did to Japan and Germany in WW2.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Israeli society operates under a totally different moral framework, much of which bares no resemblance to the West.
There is more to being like us than simply democracy and capitalism, values also play a major role.
Israel’s current government ministers are completely different to what we’d allow of our own MPs.
Amichai Eliyahu suggested that Israel use nuclear weapons against Gaza.
Itamar Ben-Gvir, a convicted terrorist sympathiser, defended spitting at Christian pilgrims as an ancient Jewish custom. He was the youth coordinator of the Kach party, which proposed that a non-Jew who has a relationship with a Jew should be liable to 50 years in prison.
Bezalel Smotrich has argued for the racial segregation of hospitals. He’s also told Arab members of the Knesset that Ben-Gurion should have finished the job in ethnically cleansing the region in 1948.
Moshe Gafni proposed legislation which sought to imprison Christian missionaries. The man he replaced Yaakov Litzman criminally assisted convicted paedophile Malka Leifer in her attempt to evade extradition to Australia.
Why would I offer my support to a country that elects people with these views? Why are these people whose bombing campaign has killed 3500 children called civilised while the Palestinians labelled Barbarians?
Even the designated terrorists of Hamas only killed 30 children, the IDF have so far killed over 100x that number

Last edited 6 months ago by Billy Bob
Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Which country doesn’t have any of this sort of person in office? Want to know where you live so that we can scrutinise your lofty ideals. Maybe you should wake up to the fact that politicians are the dregs of society.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago

Most western countries don’t have that sort of person in office who endorse ethnic cleansing or spitting on other religions, which is the point I was making

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Um
 check out the USA right now. Rashida Tlaib and her gang of genocidal shouters. And I suspect the UK have a few themselves.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago

Care to provide any quotes of theirs that specifically encourage genocide?

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

From the river to the sea is a call to ethnic cleansing and please don’t pretend it doesn’t.

Fraoch A
Fraoch A
6 months ago

From the River to the Sea is a calll for a one state solution. A real democratic state with equal rights for all it’s citizens.
Israel is not a democracy.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
6 months ago
Reply to  Fraoch A

By Hamas who wish to destroy Israel.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago

I imagine if Biden turned round and said it’s ok to spit on Jews because of what they did to Christ you’d be very critical of that opinion?

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Of course I would. Just don’t be so condescending to the readers here.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago

But you’re not critical of Israeli ministers who condone spitting on Christians simply because of their religion?

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Sigh.. yes I am

D Walsh
D Walsh
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Wasting your time BB, most around here know nothing about Israel

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
6 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Have you been to Israel? Has Billy Bob been to Israel? If you have, you should know better.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Yeah that’s objectively wrong. There are people who are violently white supremacist and violently anti-white all over the place in the government and everywhere else in the USA. It’s the cost of our vaunted multicultural society.

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago

That they are.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
6 months ago

Politicians often reflect the people who vote for them, it is the media that distorts reality to protect its own interests.

Addie Shog
Addie Shog
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I’m no fan of Ben-Gvir, Gafni nor Eliyahu but the latter’s remarks were not a call to nuke Gaza I listened to the radio interview and he was asked, “would dropping a nuclear bomb solve the problem” He answered, “well, that’s one way but…..” It was a stupid remark for an intelligent man to make but was not a call to drop the Big One.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

We have large segments of the political class who think it’s genocide to restrict children from chopping off body parts.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Malka Leifer is a woman.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago
Reply to  Dumetrius

Well spotted, corrected accordingly

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

There were plenty of Americans that suggested reducing the entirety of the Middle East to a smouldering ruin after 9/11. In 2016, Trump suggested suspending all immigration for all Muslims. Even many of us who recognize the threat of radical Islam thought that went a bit too far. There are and have always been ultranationalists in every European government as well. Look at Jean-Marie Le Pen or Geert Wilders.

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

It was suspending immigration from certain countries, not a blanket Muslims ban.

Bernard Davis
Bernard Davis
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

According to Israel’s own figures, published in Haaretz, no child under the age of 4 was killed in the October7 raid. Nearly half of the casualties were Israeli military and police. An unknown, but major proportion of the casualties were the result of Israel’s own counter-attack with tanks and helicopter gunships, firing indiscriminately.

Fraoch A
Fraoch A
6 months ago
Reply to  Bernard Davis

I up voted uou but the system didn’t tegister it

S Wilkinson
S Wilkinson
6 months ago
Reply to  Fraoch A

If the thumbs up/down button highlights then it has been counted.
But the vote count may not change, (or, on occasion, may actually decrease) because of how the page refreshes, ie other people’s votes don’t force your display to refresh though yours does, so you are seeing the cumulative effect of more than one vote.

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

When the numbers are confirmed by a truely independent source, I will believe them.I think you are being truely naive to believe Hamas’ numbers, after the story of the errant rocket and the hospital killing 500 people.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

If the numbers were wildly inflated then Israel and America would be releasing their own figures

Jane Watson
Jane Watson
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Why would they bother? You wouldn’t believe them.

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Where would they get the numbers from? They would be wildly guessing just like Hamas.

Mary Thomas
Mary Thomas
6 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

If they keep on adding more and more numbers they’ll run out of people.

Guy Aston
Guy Aston
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

You sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind. Ask Germany about it.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I agree, a good post. Unfortunately you can’t change peoples minds’ with facts. A good try though. I have to agree with Chas Stanhope on this one ‘Unherd is becomimg deluged with ‘Sun readers’. Shame

Chris Keating
Chris Keating
6 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

What civilized country are you talking about? I don’t think the US is civilized. On the surface it looks civilized but scratch away the veneer, it’s a failing state that despises huge chunks of it’s citizenry and uses the massive prison system to keep them in some sort of line.
The term “law enforcement” is not a benign phrase about the American “justice” system. It is sign of intent to maintain, what would be called in any other country, fascism.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

Here, here

Peter B
Peter B
6 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Not a good analogy at all. For countless reasons – not least the fact that those countries became strong allies after WWII, partly because of what we did.
Inicidentally, I don’t recall us levelling parts of Northern Ireland.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
6 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

I tend to agree. Keep in mind that Unherd is a British website and they face a much different political situation and are host to significant numbers of Muslim refugees and immigrants. It’s a whole different ballgame for them. As Americans, we can shrug off the stupid college kid protests. Americans don’t vote based on foreign policy and never have. Foreigners don’t have a concept of how insular America tends to be. The Hamas/Israel conflict will barely break into public awareness among the common folk. The average American has very little idea of history, geography, or international affairs. However, sympathy for Israel is based on the Holocaust, which is ingrained deeply into the culture. Nearly every American of every class knows about WWII and the Holocaust. Sympathy for Palestine is not deeply ingrained, temporary, and subject to the notoriously short attention spans of the American public. The powers that be have always supported Israel, and know very well they’ll pay no penalty at the ballot box for doing so, provided it doesn’t cost too much or get too many Americans killed. The opposite is not true at all.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
6 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Or to Iraq after 9/11.

Peter B
Peter B
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Thanks for your interesting and thought provoking comments on this subject. Don’t agree with all of them, but valuable that you are saying them nonetheless (and not being shouted down or silenced).
Israel does need some western support. But it has a significant and strong defence industry of its own (and is a significant military exporter) and pretty advanced technology in general. So they are not entirely under the thumb of the US.
Indeed, the author claims that Joe Biden could have told Netanyahu to be more moderate in Gaza and implies that the will (and sense) were lacking. But how does he know a) that this is true and b) that Netanyahu would listen anyway ? Indeed, the delay in the Gaza operation suggests that the US did exert some influence. But Israel is Israel and it seems simply not to be in their DNA to react with maximum force (they always seem to), regardless of whether this is effective or not. Something Hamas would have been well aware of in advance. And doubtless expected – even wanted.
This is precisely the sort of situation which benefits the extremists on both sides and hurst the moderates. I suspect there is little that Joe Biden – or any other US president – could have done to change anything here. Nor that he can actually force a ceasefire.

Ed Newman
Ed Newman
6 months ago
Reply to  Peter B

Doesn’t it take time to mobilize an army? The bombing started almost immediately. And pulling together all those reserves and tanks, that’s lot of organizing and management. We took a lot more time with Desert Storm…

Peter B
Peter B
6 months ago
Reply to  Ed Newman

Not 3-4 weeks for the Israelis. Not on past form. They can’t afford to be that slow.

Mike Wylde
Mike Wylde
6 months ago
Reply to  Peter B

3-4 hours is about all that Israel really needs. It’s a small country and the majority of the population is in very few cities.

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
6 months ago
Reply to  Ed Newman

The standing army was caught unprepared and took a several hours to start responding effectively. Luckily the existing forces did an amazing job of holding their line to a greater or lesser extent until reinforcements arrived and thwarted a much larger incursion by the Hamas Jihadists. Reserves were mobilized the same day, and Israel is small; it doesn’t take more than 3 hours to drive anywhere. My sons were called up and were in their units within hours. From what I have been told and from what I saw there were tanks and other armour driving up main roads, not waiting for their transporters. The actual invasion of Gaza only started two weeks later when everything was in place.

Mary Thomas
Mary Thomas
6 months ago
Reply to  Ed Newman

It doesn’t take time to mobilise an army when you have mandatory national service and have been bombarded night and day by indiscriminate rocket fire, necessitating every single Israeli house to install a concrete safe room, bunker, for their little kids to hide in. People seem to forget that Israel isn’t coming cold into this situation – this is just the final, ghastly straw in a whole generations-worth of attrition.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago
Reply to  Peter B

I’m not saying the US could force anything, ultimately Israel is a sovereign country a free to act how it pleases.
However my point was that due to its geography it needs the backing of the US, Israel on its own would simply be too small to repel a major invasion like that currently undertaken by Russia. Looking long term if it’s actions today disgust a majority of the west and as a result the Americans decide to no longer offer any security guarantees then that invasion becomes much more likely.
If Iran for instance knew America would play no part in a future conflict then it could overrun Israel simply through sheer numbers, irrespective of Israel being technologically superior

Mary Thomas
Mary Thomas
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

That won’t happen.,

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Europe is almost completely reliant on America to protect her. If regular Americans had the power to say adios, freeloaders, you’re on your own, you’d be in deep trouble. You think your sunken-chested Just Stop Oil girly boys would protect you? All Israelis serve in the armed forces. They are surrounded by barbarians bent on genocide and take that very seriously, whilst Europe holds the doors open for the scimitar-wielding murderers telling them to their faces we hate you and will kill you.

Dominic A
Dominic A
6 months ago

Europe is completely reliant

To the extent that that is true, it’s because America wants it that way. It’s also not so true – West Europe (I assume you are excluding Russia – who likely would assist the West in a war against the Middle East, but I’ll ignore that for now) has a combined military of around 2 million people (USA’s is about 1.5 million) and 500 nuclear warheads (same as China’s). The population of Western Europe is around 500 million to the US’s 330 and I’ll warrant they are healthier, less obese. Moreover there is a huge manufacturing base in Europe which in the event of a large war, would be repurposed to produce huge numbers of planes, tanks, weaponary – as happened to a stunning extent in WWII.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Dominic A

How many would be fighting on the home front to stop Europe fighting on a Middle Eastern front? They would use the same tactics as Hamas. Does the venue, “Manchester Arena” ring any bells? The US, so far, hasn’t that level of Islamic infiltration, but Europe has.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago

Europe definitely sponges off America, but that’s largely due to that being how America likes it as it gives it much more influence on the continent and Europe gets defence on the cheap. It’s an arrangement of convenience for both sides rather than an existential must for European countries.
Even in its scaled back state Europe would have too much for the likes of Russia.
It’s completely different for Israel who relies on the threat of American involvement in a future conflict to deter would be enemies. If America washed its hands of Israel there’s little it could do in the face of a full invasion from the more powerful states in that region

Richard Bolton
Richard Bolton
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Trump tried to get some European nations to pay their fair share and some like Germany held out valiantly like they have done for a few decades now. France, UK and Germany have the 4th,5th and 6th largest GDP’s on the planet and combined wouldn’t last a week against US armed forces. It is down to ourselves to pay our share and be able to stand on our own two feet. I don’t want to be looked after by the US military or their government .
Israel has been attacked by numerous Arab armies and seen them all off and they have been larger in number and at times better equipped too. That’s why Egypt and Jordan have signed peace treaties. Egypt and Jordan know that Israel isn’t the threat but Islamic Jihad is. The Israeli state is now virtually self sufficient in it’s defence manufacturing industries and is now exporting superior equipment around the world. Let’s hope that Israel never gets to a point where they are in genuine fear of losing just the one war as they will no doubt go nuclear

Duane M
Duane M
6 months ago

And who are the “genocidal barbarians” today? Israelis! Quelle Surprise!

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
6 months ago
Reply to  Duane M

You do know that Arabs live peacefully amongst Israelis? Your comment is no logical.

Last edited 6 months ago by Lesley van Reenen
Bret Larson
Bret Larson
6 months ago

Its the progressive problem. Who is going to fight and risk their lives for the brave new world these people envision.

Glynis Roache
Glynis Roache
6 months ago

Just Stop Oil? Deary me.Wrong class of person altogether, Alison. You must get a grasp on this sort of thing. As Harry Flashman observed, the British thin red line was recruited from Glaswegian yobs, Whitehall scruffs and Somerset yokels. Today they’re called things like the English Defence League and The Football Lads Alliance. The mainstream media call them far right thugs. To the horror of the more genteel and those who tout intellectual superiority, they are not in short supply. I’m not at all opposed to them myself and when the scimitars come out, I’ll be down at Ladbrookes to put my money on them.

Last edited 6 months ago by Glynis Roache
starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago

And have done so, repeatedly.

D Walsh
D Walsh
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The funny part is that it’s mainly jewish activactists that are behind the changes in Western society that erode support for Israel, open borders being the main one

It’s not just George Soros

Buena Vista
Buena Vista
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

Thor, I very much agree with your 1st point: Israel is fighting for their survival, and not for the first time. Their long struggle gives them an attitude and will that does not care a whit about world opinion.

Peter B
Peter B
6 months ago
Reply to  Buena Vista

They certainly believe they are fighting for survival – survival of a certain and specific image of Israel. But there are multiple ways that Israel might evolve in the future that this excludes and not even all the Jewish population are happy with the image that’s being pursued. The desire to keep things they way they are seems to overwhelm any thought of how things might be made better for everyone. We saw similar attitudes in Northern Ireland.
Such is the power of fixed ideas and absolute rights. Something we’ve largely abandoned in the UK and struggle to understand now.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Peter B

I’m always fascinated by those who listen to Hamas, then don’t believe them. I can only think that because they’ve lied so often about Israeli Genocide against Gaza, that when they say they intend a genocide against Israel no one believes them.

Betsy Arehart
Betsy Arehart
6 months ago
Reply to  Buena Vista

Like the US once was. The leader of the FREE world, not the follower of the Zeitgeist.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

I agree. Fatalistic drivel. Not sure why the author thinks this conflict will tarnish the image of Israel and the US. Arab countries hated Israel and America before the war and will hate them after. Fortunately for the west, many of these countries hate Iran and Hamas even more.

Chris Keating
Chris Keating
6 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

If you can’t stand a whiff of reality you are going to be shocked when your preferred “reality” fails to arrive. The world is witnessing a genocide in real time and Israeli politicians have admitted as much in their stated aims to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza.
The reason that the Zionists and America are hated is because they are committing this genocide, having never desisted from stealing Palestinian land or terrorising their population for decades. They have had press conferences justifying this genocide. How this polishes up their reputation is a mystery to me. Their reputation will continue to sink as long as the murder of innocents continue.
There was always the chance to calm things down through the “two state solution” but very little effort was expended to enable this and great energy was expended to ensure that it couldn’t happen.
If your security is dependent on an foreign armada lurking off your foreshore or nuclear weapons that will devastate your own country, I would say that you are in a great deal of bother and should perhaps look for some alternative path.
I’m not holding my breath.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

There was always the chance to calm things down through the “two state solution”
The two-state solution has always been a fantasy of Western liberal politicians. The Arabs were never going to accept any version of it, and the Israelis, who know this conflict is existential and not capable of mediation, only went along with it to show willing.
The Mizrahi Jews were the victims for a thousand years. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Karma.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Peter Hitchen’s agrees with you. Though I usually treat anything Hamas/Fatah says with a few sackfuls of salt, I do believe them when they say they intend to wipe Israel and its Jewish population off the face of the Earth. No State which is only 15 miles wide at its narrowest is going to allow another state with attitudes like that to be formed on its borders. Fortunately Hamas/Fatah are so well steeped in hatred of the Jews they too won’t accept it.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

It is unbelievable that a supposedly intelligent person could write such drivel. As anybody who has experienced war will tell you, war is horrific. But one thing is for sure: the IDF takes more care not to harm civilians than any other military including the US (witness what the US did in Iraq). The IDF gives warnings of bombings, etc… What other country does that. The bombs are as accurate as current technology allows, and that means they are super accurate. Hamas, and Hamas alone is responsible for the death of any Palestinian civilian in Gaza given that they are forcible preventing many from fleeing to South Gaza (an escape route that is protected by the IDF) and they have purposefully built their tunnels, bunkers, rocket launchers, etc…. under civilian locations including hospitals and schools.

Lastly, I would advise you not to succumb to Hamas propaganda. Anything that Hamas says in terms of civilian casualties, including women and children, I would take with a grain of salt. ake for example the so-called hospital bombing where Hamas claimed that the IDF had killed 500 patients. Well it wasn’;t the IDF but of of Islamic Jihad’s misfired rockets, and the rocket hit the parking lot, not the hospital, and the total number of deaths was 50 and not 500. Perhaps, just perhaps, it’s time to cool it before reacting to what the IDF is doing in response to an attack by Hamas of such barbarity that it is simply unimaginable to modern western eyes, especially those of the bine-pensant living in the comfort of London or NYC.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Even the BBC seemed to have a hard time making Israel look bad as they reported on the phone call from Israel Intelligence to an Arab doctor warning him to get the civilians out of the line of fire.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079
‘Mahmoud could not understand why his neighbourhood had become a target. “I tried my best to stop him. I asked, ‘Why do you want to bomb?’
“He said, ‘There are some things that we see that you don’t see.'”
The man did not explain what he meant.’
Perhaps the large holes in the ground which appear much larger than a bomb crater where tunnels may have caved in held the answer?
The BBC didn’t seem interested in those, and didn’t enclose them in their ‘red lines’ on the photo.
Odd given that the buildings looked rather like the end result of a demolition expert’s ‘controlled explosion’. They collapsed vertically.
The large black holes outside the red lines more like where the bombs struck.

John Riordan
John Riordan
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

After the drivel you’ve come out with here, perhaps it would be better if you did just hold your breath instead.

Susan Grabston
Susan Grabston
6 months ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Helpful for altitude training.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Susan Grabston

Given that Israel is supposedly conducting a genocide against Gaza, the photo in this BBC report is intriguing.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079
Unlike Ukraine where seeing a buliding in once piece is rare, in this picture it really is a ‘surgical strike. There also appears to be a lot of other buildings surrounding which are high enough for Hamas to chuck off any of the Gays for Palestine who turn up to give their support in person.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

Seriously. Way more people are being killed in Syria and Yemen right now. The world is forever ignoring atrocities. The Arab world hates Israel and America, and maybe for good reason, but this conflict isn’t changing any of that.

Trump tried to normalize relations between Israel and Saudia Arabia and Iran used its Hamas proxy to destabilize that relationship. But ya, Israel and America are the only bad guys here.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

Seems you don’t know much about historical efforts of a two State Solution. From the beginning of the creation of Israel (1947), the Arabs had the opportunity of a two state Nation. Many times the Palestinian leaders refused to sign an agreement, because it would have meant to recognise the Nationhood of Israel.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

IF driving the Palestinians out of Gaza is Genocide why no outcry about Armenian’s and Gorno Karabakh?
Farsi mistakes Militant Islam for Real Politik. Understandable because the Iranians and Palestinians mix the two, BUT, when Real Politik meets Sunni/Shia Religious conflicts, you’ll probably discover that half the Muslim world would happily rejoice, but privately and quietly, were Israel to nuke Tehran.
All you need to know is that Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon all refuse to accept Palestinians – all 3 have fought with Palestinians who on being given sanctuary within their borders promptly set about carving out new ‘Palestines’ in the lands of fellow Arabs.
Peter Hitchen’s (I always thought his brother smarter, but more and more I find Peter has more grasp of reality and less ideology) recent interview is interesting. He says the only solution to the Palestine/Israeli wars will NOT be a formal solution. It will be the informal contacts that ordinary Jews and Arabs produce when working alongside each other. Hamas/Fatah probably know that, and which is why they are even more oppressive of their own people that the Israelis are, and regularly stage some atrocity to close Israel’s borders to their fellow Arabs.

Andy White
Andy White
6 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

The article is about present-day America’s inability to achieve its stated foreign policy aims, promising too much, and the rest of the world drawing its own conclusions. Whether or not we think that’s a good or a bad thing, that is what is happening. A less stable, multi-polar world is emerging. If you want to go on denying reality that’s up to you, but you’ll be writing yourself out of the conversation.

P Branagan
P Branagan
6 months ago
Reply to  Andy White

Well said Andy.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
6 months ago
Reply to  Andy White

My comment was in response to someone who said the conflict will further reduce the global image of Israel and the US, which I believe is nonsense.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
6 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Many Arab countries cheer behind the scenes that Israel is taking out Hamas. They hate Iran and its allies. All this talk about “the Arab Nations hate Israel” is vastly exaggerated.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
6 months ago

I would suggest they do hate Israel. Some might hate Iran and Hamas even more though.

Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

“There is a great deal of ruin in a nation” was Adam Smith”s calm response in 1777 when an overexcited student rushed in and announced that Burgoyne had surrendered to the Americans and Britain was ruined.

I could write a much longer list of the challenges the West will face in the next decade than Mr Roussinos has included in this article but there is a difference between recognising a challenge and succumbing to despair.

Our ancestors would have said instead that it was time to “gird our loins” I have never been entirely sure what this involves. It sounds slightly uncomfortable. But anything is better than accepting the conclusion of this “fatalistic drivel”.

Incidentally, for non historians, Britain did OK in the century after 1777.

Last edited 6 months ago by Alex Carnegie
A D Kent
A D Kent
6 months ago
Reply to  Alex Carnegie

“Incidentally, for non historians, Britain did OK in the century after 1777.” Indeed they did, but how do you think a re-run of the Opium Wars might turn out nowadays?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

We got a taste of that this very morning when the new Lord Mayor of London, one Michael Mainelli, pontificating of Radio 4, said that it was “commendable” that Lloyds of London should be shelling out $65 million as ‘compensation’ for the past sins of slavery!
Whatever next?

Last edited 6 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Badly if you mean Britain vs. China. In the 1840s the RN had steam powered warships and the Chinese had not yet upgraded their junks. Now the Chinese Navy is a lot larger and more advanced than ours. Fortunately, if one pushes the analogy, the conflict would be USN vs Chinese Navy. A more even match. Anyway, the Chinese do not need a military success to increase drug imports into the US; that is happening just fine without one.

A D Kent
A D Kent
6 months ago
Reply to  Alex Carnegie

I think the US and whatever the they cobble together in naval terms would very soon be sunk by the Chinese if any battle took place in their back yard. Their aircraft carriers are essentially obsolete nowadays and probably have been for years (they’re almost always ‘sunk’ in their wargames) and thanks to the Ukraine war the Russians & Chinese have all sorts of technical data regarding Western air defences. There’s plenty of chatter on the ‘other side’ that the Houthi’s attacks on Israel were designed to get the US to use some of their ship AD systems to ‘light up’ and see how they looked too. Of course the US have this info for RF & Chinese systems, but the US will always be at a disadvantage as it insists on playing away from home.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

US/UK subs are way beyond anything the Russians or Chinese can produce according to a report I read. In fact we often track both countries subs with ease, reputedly why China got so uptight that we were going to provide the same tech to the Aussies.
The same report says that most of the ‘hype’ of China/Russia capabilities are because the US defence industry likes to stay in clover.

Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
6 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Do you have a link?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

The USN’s Ohio class submarines ballistic MRV missiles have a range of over 7000 nm, and thus could vaporise China from off Skegness. That is not “playing away from home “.

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago

Thank you for that. So much of the ‘US is losing its power’ rhetoric seems like barely veiled schadenfreude. If we’re diminished, were does it leave Western Europe? Don’t think that too many people share Thomas Fazi’s love for all things CCP.

Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Do you have a link for the war games you refer to?

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Not going to happen though is it? We aren’t even fighting the ‘Opium’ war in out own country. Though how much the problem is actually Afghanistan’s Opium or China’s synthesised products is moot.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  Alex Carnegie

We did loose America and Minorca and a few other places in 1783. Was that “OK” may I ask?

Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
6 months ago

Longue durée history. What are these microscopic details you refer to? British expansionism resumed just in slightly different places over the century 1777-1877 (or 1783-1883 if you want to be pedantic).

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  Alex Carnegie

1783-1898 to be pedantic!

Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
6 months ago

The statement started as “the century after 1777”. Producing a replacement lasting 115 years may imply that arithmetic was not a strength at your old school.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  Alex Carnegie

As the sentence stands it is wrong unless you are an American patriot/rebel, which I somehow doubt?
If you had said post 1783, you assertion would have been on firmer ground n’est pas?

Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
6 months ago

The point I was trying to make was that the over excited student – who incidentally was my ggg grandfather which may prove that poor judgement runs in families – was overreacting and though Britain’s fortunes were in temporary eclipse it bounced back with the Napoleonic Wars, the acquisition of India and the Industrial Revolution.
I take your point that the absolute nadir was 1783 but I don’t think that invalidates my sentence. I am adding grammar to arithmetic on my list.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  Alex Carnegie

“Incidentally, for non historians, Britain did OK in the century after 1777.”
Is that an example of Sc*tch grammar? If so where DID you learn it?

Perhaps we should let our grammarian, JOHN SOLOMAN adjudicate?

Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
6 months ago

Scotch is a swear word?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  Alex Carnegie

No, who ever told you that?
The correct English collective noun to describe those unfortunate enough to live north of the border.
As in Sc*tch Corner, Sc*tch Egg and so forth.

That great authority Dr Johnson always used it, so why should we differ?

ps. Unfortunately some members of ‘Jocko Nostra’ have whinged to UnHerd and thus the word is often instantly censored!

Last edited 6 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
6 months ago

That would explain why my comment took 12 hours to appear.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  Alex Carnegie

Precisely!

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago

We lost America to English men. I suspect had we persuaded Wellington to go over there and command, we wouldn’t have lost it either.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

We had another chance in 1812-15 but Wellington declined. He was after all an ‘India’ man.*

(* Or Sepoy General as one Napoleon Bonaparte called him.)

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
6 months ago

Today I am a full blooded brown Englishwoman( metaphorically only) rooting for the P’s to be smashed on my home turf!!!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago

And so it has come to past!

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
6 months ago

With the blessings of the hitherto Empress of India, no doubt, whose Memorial in marble is very near to Eden Gardens..

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago

Another Plassey perhaps?

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
6 months ago

Thankfully so! Plassey was a deliverance from evil!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago

Followed by a second splendid innings at Buxar, captained by the splendid Hector Munro!

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
6 months ago

Yes….all was overall well ( apart from lots of hands in various tills)and the odd violence and Malthusian events( 1770-72) until the” fishing fleet ” and ecclesiastical forces made it dour and boring..

Last edited 6 months ago by Sayantani Gupta
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago

A perfect synopsis, thank you.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
6 months ago
Reply to  Alex Carnegie

An excellent comment. Britain did more than okay after 1777.

I, too, had only a vague idea what was behind the “girding your loins” figure of speech, and you peaked my curiosity. In ancient times, before the advent of trousers and underpants, men wore long tunics, and as any woman who has ever donned a long gown can tell you, it’s not exactly labour or battle-friendly attire. Hence, the fabric of the tunic would be gathered up in front to above the knees, pulled back between the legs, and brought forward to be tied around the waist. I suppose the end result was not exactly stylish, a mix between a nappy and shorts, but it worked, and gave the wearers the necessary freedom to work and fight.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
6 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Thanks for that “piquant” description of loin girding!

Mary Thomas
Mary Thomas
6 months ago
Reply to  Alex Carnegie

And thereafter – two world wars?

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
6 months ago
Reply to  Alex Carnegie

it means pull up your skirts and get ready to move/run !!

A D Kent
A D Kent
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

Lets see about your two/three points:
1 & 2: How is that destruction of Hamas going? Who have they killed so far? Who do they expect to trade with once this is all over, let alone who is going to give them more military kit or favoured statuses?
3. US’s muscularity has led to them winning which wars in the last 70 years?  How has their recent War on Terror done in restricting the influence of Al Qaeda – who when it started were a few hundred people in the mountains of Afghanistan and now range widely across the Middle East and Northen Africa? Anyone involved should be ‘ashamed’ – Biden, Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush and beyond – that’s quite a list of poor leaders to be ‘blessed with’ – leads one to think it might be something more than the selection of the odd poor leader.   Fatalism? Not in the slightest.  

Peter B
Peter B
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

The USA doesn’t actually need to “win” any of these wars though. It is enough to remind people of what they can do.
They can certainly enforce strong trade sanctions and force many countries to go along with them (whether they wish to or not).They can immediately cause serious damage and destruction anywhere in the world at almost no risk of loss of life to themselves.They can remove foreign leaders they don’t approve of.
Not saying that’s always good.
My own suspicion is that regular military engagements are a useful opportunity for “kit testing” and making sure their military is still working. Advanced technical weapons systems need real world testing. The Russian military shows just what can happen if you don’t keep on top of things …
Again, I’m not saying I always approve, just making observations.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Given the casualty figures I suspect it is going to plan. You don’t think Hamas are going to tell you how many of those dead ‘Civilians’ are theirs do you?
This occurred because the ‘terrorists’ were terrified that Israel was normalising relations with too many Islamic Countries. Iran is the issue, curiously their population aren’t quite so keen as their leaders when it comes to Hamas and Palestinians.
Trump’s foreign policies were actually doing quite well in terms of war & peace.
As for trade, it never stops, Ask Iraq, Iran, Russia and most intriguingly of all, ask the BBC what Britain traded with Germany via Switzerland as they fought WW1.
“August 1915 the British bought German binoculars, rangefinders and telescopic sights by the tens of thousands from the Germans in exchange for raw rubber, in trades that took place at the Swiss border. Opposing countries were selling equipment, which would be used to kill their own soldiers.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4797vh06x16KYYpsLyh7SPx/from-giraffes-to-aerials-on-the-pyramids-nine-unexpected-wwi-facts
Even if they don’t annihilate them, Israel is going to set Hamas back decades, which is probably enough. They MAY drive them out of Gaza, which would be a bonus no doubt, but slowly, and surely they appear to be driving the fanatics underground, literally, which isn’t that great for the fanatics if the IDF then blow underground up.

Thor Albro
Thor Albro
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

The Cold War – the one that mattered – was won. You’re welcome.

Michael Cazaly
Michael Cazaly
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

The Cold War was totally unnecessary. The Soviet Union was always an economic basket case…”Upper Volta with rockets” and miltarily incapable of taking Western Europe even if it had wanted to, which it probably didn’t..

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  Michael Cazaly

The question is WHO gave the Soviet Union the BOMB?

Lennon Ó Náraigh
Lennon Ó Náraigh
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

It’s realistic, not fatalistic. Even the conclusion, which admits that whatever replaces Pax Americana will be worse. But as for Israel, they will win this war but long-term the prospects for their security are not great. It’s all tactics and no grand strategy. The younger generations in the US are very pro-Palestinian, that there is the future of the Democratic Party. I can’t see a Democratic President in 50 or even 20 years time backing Israel the way Biden has.

Last edited 6 months ago by Lennon Ó Náraigh
Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
6 months ago

Well with a friend like Biden who needs enemies, given that he has gone weak at the knees. No surprise given that Biden is no longer capable of thinking rationally, and thee US is being run by a cadre of leftist progressive apparatchniks. As for Israel, it will simply become more and more self-reliant as time goes on. They already make most of their advanced weapons systems, and unlike those made in the US have actually been tried and tested.

Lennon Ó Náraigh
Lennon Ó Náraigh
6 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I think the Israeli warplanes are F15s and F16s, and the bombs they are dropping are JDAMs. If Sweden can develop fighter jets independently, then so can Israel, but it won’t happen over night.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago

The Merkava came about when the UK refused to sell parts for their Chieftains.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Odd really when you remember ‘we’ did give them the BOMB.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I doubt Biden knows what day of the week it is. Rumour has it that we are seeing Obama’s 3rd term. but who knows?

Susan Grabston
Susan Grabston
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

The war America lost under Biden was deterrence. Afghanistan withdrawal was a poor strategic decision and a worse signal to the wider world. Sun Tzu “the greatest victory is that which requires no battle”. However, before we jump on Biden’s leadership, the emergence of the current issues can be laid at Obama’s door in my view.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Susan Grabston

Biden doesn’t appear compos-mentis enough to take blame for anything. The rumour is this is de-facto Obama’s 3rd term.

Susan Grabston
Susan Grabston
6 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Yes, I’ve been hearing Michelle Obama might even run for the democrats.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
6 months ago
Reply to  Susan Grabston

Big Mike?

R M
R M
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

It is fatalistic drivel like this (following Fazi’s almost identical dirge from yesterday) that will drive me away from Unherd. 

I expect and hope to read things I don’t agree with on UnHerd, otherwise I might as well create a Twitter account and limit my feed to things I already agree with.

B Moore
B Moore
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

2) “Hamas has already won.” Who cares, if they cease to exist?

How is that going to work? Is Israel going to kill every Gazan? Because that’s what it will take. And then they have Hezbollah, Isis and god knows how many other lunatics ready to attack, and with a good degree of justification.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  B Moore

“Lunatics” and “good degree of justification”.
What was the justification for Oct 7th, or the Manchester Arena for that matter?
As for every Gazan? How many support Fatah, or did Hamas eliminate every Fatah supporter?
I doubt they did, but they effectively eliminated Fatah. I bet the Fatah supporters they didn’t eliminate won’t be mourning Israel’s elimination of Hamas.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  B Moore

They have the BOMB, and as long as they remember to use air bursts it shouldn’t be too much of problem.
All it needs is the WILL to use them.

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago
Reply to  B Moore

Sounds like you’re rooting for Team Jihad. Yeah, I know, colonialist white patriarchy, blah, blah, blah. Queers for Palestine!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  B Moore

They have the BOMB and logic dictates they will use if necessary. Who realistically can stop them?

P Branagan
P Branagan
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

Please drive away from UnHerd as fast as possible and never waste the time of it’s rational, balanced users with your brainwashed garbage ever again. Fazi is worth incomparably more than you Albro by way of informed, balanced contributions that help us trying to understand a rapidly changing world.

Oh! by the way will the usual brainwashed useful idiots please give me as many downtics as possible. The more of them I get the surer I am that I’m on the right track.
Thanks in advance. (Hoping to break the ton this time!)

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

Aris is a bit of an acquired taste and certainly not completely to my taste, but I would never describe it as drivel – fatalistic or overly pessimistic certainly but not drivel. However you seem to be suggesting Unherd should only produce articles which tell you what you want to hear – I think you may have completely missed the point of Unherd

Last edited 6 months ago by Adrian Smith
Peter Lee
Peter Lee
6 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Based on the comments,I suspect most people reading Unherd articles and doing so because that is what they want to hear.

Paul Rodolf
Paul Rodolf
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

I see you brought your “hammer”, well said!

David Jory
David Jory
6 months ago
Reply to  Thor Albro

Given how much better Trump was as President,why do you still loathe him?

Cantab Man
Cantab Man
6 months ago

I appreciate Unherd’s publishing of this piece. It caused me to smile and feel uncharacteristically nostalgic for the myriad of Leftist articles published over past 70 years, each urgently proclaiming – nay, triumphing in dreamily-glorious gaslighting prose – that the end of the West’s influence upon the Earth is at hand…right now…no wait, I mean…right NOW…hold on…okay, we’re ready…RIGHT NOW!
Sadly, critical reasoning skills interrupt my nostalgia to gently remind me that this seemingly-excitable apocalyptic event has never actually come to pass. And so I sigh and think to myself in utter boredom, “oh look, here’s another ‘Workers of the World, unite to look into my eyes and believe every word that I say…and remember to rush out and buy my new book’ gaslighting event.”
That being said, I am surprised these amnesia-prone articles are being pumped out as fast as hands can type these days. It seems that the Leftist Apologists for the New Holocaust Movement are getting slightly nervous: Although their ‘side’ started this war with Israel a little over a month ago, Israel will most likely end it very quickly…and not to the other side’s satisfaction.
Remember:
On 7 October, the Palestinian Government of the Gaza Strip (one of two self-governing Palestinian Territories within the State of Palestine) conducted a surprise act of war against a neighboring nation in direct violation of a mutually agreed-upon ceasefire with said nation and in direct violation of international law.
To be clear – this was no mere ‘terrorist attack’. This was an act of war by one internationally-recognized and UN-recognized Territory of the State of Palestine against a foreign sovereign nation, and the attack was authorized by.the self-governing voice of the people within the aggressor Territory.
While carrying out this act of war, the Palestinian Government of the Gaza Strip allowed the fighters within its incursion force to carry out Holocaust-like War Crimes: Cutting off the heads of babies, placing newborn babies into their own kitchen ovens to slowly roast to a sizzling crisp after the attackers brutally murdered the newborn’s innocent parents, raping teenagers attending a concert and then slitting their throats, burning entire families alive, etc
If a Territory ignores a ceasefire and goes to war with a more powerful neighboring nation via a surprise attack – committing War Crimes along the way – they mustn’t forget: They started a “winner takes all” event that they won’t end on their own terms.
It’s near impossible to argue with this fact.

Last edited 6 months ago by Cantab Man
A D Kent
A D Kent
6 months ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

It isn’t impossible to argue with those ‘facts’ as there hasn’t been a proper investigation of any of them Perhaps you could link me to some of the names of these beheaded babies for instance? I’m happy to stand to be corrected on this, but I’ve not seen any so far and that’s a month after the event. Likewise when the Israeli response was to shell both the hostages & terrorists with tanks and Apache helicopters who can say for certain who was responsible for any burnings alive. War Crimes were committed, but I not going to take the maximalist claims of the Israelis at face value on this. Arse-covering by a humiliated, incompetent government might be in play here – and I think almost certainly is given the nature of the nutjobs we’re talking about.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-19/ty-article-magazine/israels-dead-the-names-of-those-killed-in-hamas-massacres-and-the-israel-hamas-war/0000018b-325c-d450-a3af-7b5cf0210000
Maybe you should do your own ghoulish searching specifically for the names of beheaded babies.
Maybe you also don’t know (because you have your hands firmly over your eyes and ears), that some people have still not been identified – so badly were they mutilated. There are few photos to protect families, but media has been privy to this information.

A D Kent
A D Kent
6 months ago

Thanks I’ve seen that list – all tragic – not seen any confirmation of the ages or the manner of death though. Meanwhile we have this for instance:

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/

Dominic A
Dominic A
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Ah with a quality source such as the grayzone, we stand corrected!

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Dominic A

The action photo of the Apache gunship confirms it no doubt. The BBC should be able to identify the Kibbutz from the red burning building in the background when they come to verify it.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Ah, I was right to doubt.

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

From Lenin to Stalin to Mao to Castro to Che to Pol Pot to Bin Laden and now Hamas, far lefties just love authoritarian regimes who commit mass murder. They’re like groupies backstage at a rock concert. Time for the rest of us to show some guts and put these venal scumbags in their place already.

John Williams
John Williams
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Why not look up the images?Then report back to us.

Addie Shog
Addie Shog
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

I personally know some of the responders who went to the kibbutzim. These are private volunteers and not government employees. They have attended previous terrorist attacks and awful traffic accidents but were all shocked to their very cores at the utter fanatical depravity of the killings so don’t you dare to cast doubt on the atrocities committed by those disgusting butchers of Hamas.

Max Rottersman
Max Rottersman
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

I saw you were -2 so I upvoted but it turned to -6. Ironically, I’ve found the more negative votes you get on Unherd the more you questioned the evidence. Not the more you disagree. Asking questions will not be tolerated!!!! 🙂

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Max Rottersman

So are you as ‘happy to be corrected’ as A D? IF so what exactly would you need to be ‘corrected’?
It would appear only being there and seeing it would be sufficient for A D.

Cantab Man
Cantab Man
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

A D Kent –
Thanks for your response.
I realize from your expressed lack of knowledge about events that this is likely one of the first articles that you’ve read about the surprise act of war committed by the State of Palestine against Israel. I appreciate your curiosity and am happy to assist as you start your journey of discovering the facts of the matter.
To bring you up to speed, you’d be hard-pressed to find a more well-documented surprise act of war – and corresponding War Crimes – than this act committed by the Palestinian Government of the Gaza Strip against the sovereign nation of Israel.
Within mere hours after the attack, video footage started to be released from the Palestinian Government’s incursion force.
How is this possible? Well, the incursion force wore GoPro-style video cameras and these cameras were recording real-time events: From when the Palestinian incursion forces were still in the State of Palestine, to when they entered into the sovereign nation of Israel, to when they committed further acts of war against Israel, to when they committed War Crimes against civilians, to when they were either killed by Israeli forces and their videos were recovered (still recording) or to when the Palestinian soldier returned to the State of Palestine to provide their footage to their government for now-released Palestinian Government videos of the attack.
Independent news organizations across the world have analyzed and confirmed video geotagging/ locations of the events on these videos.
Furthermore, Israeli civilians were texting and videoing in real-time during the surprise attack. As an example, look up the videos of innocent civilians attending a concert in Israel as the Palestinian Incursion force initiated their act of war – and War Crimes – against Israel.
To further assist you, I performed a one-second google search that gave me merely one of innumerable independent news sources:
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2023/middleeast/hamas-attack-body-cam-videos-invs-dg/
Again, the War Crimes of the Palestinian Government against innocent civilians and their official act of war against Israel in direct violation of the ceasefire is likely the most thoroughly documented first salvo of a war in existence – because of the innumerable and independently sourced Palestinian GoPro and Israeli civilian videos and texts.
Hopefully you found my post helpful and I wish you well as you continue your journey of discovery about this mass-extinction event carried out by the State of Palestine against the sovereign nation of Israel.

Last edited 6 months ago by Cantab Man
Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

“I’m happy to stand to be corrected on this,”
For some reason, I doubt that statement.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Ugh. Do we really need to count beheaded babies. If there was only one, I guess it wasn’t an atrocity then.

John Williams
John Williams
6 months ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

“Cutting off the heads of babies, placing newborn babies into their own kitchen ovens to slowly roast to a sizzling crisp after the attackers brutally murdered the newborn’s innocent parents
”

I would merely point out that the sick sadists who did this would in all probability, have murdered the babies in front of the living parents thus maximising the thrill of killing.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  John Williams

Unless of course they shot the parents first before realising. According to one of the journalists at the screening, the biggest ‘intake of breath’ was at the shooting of an apparently friendly dog that approached a gunman. Maybe A D and friends need to see the dog’s body?

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
6 months ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

Well said. Couldn’t agree more with you and the way you put things into perspective.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
6 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I think the guy sounds absolutely deranged.

Cantab Man
Cantab Man
6 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Ah, yes. A crude expression of a depressingly unoriginal ad hominem attack because one cannot coherently form a debate rebuttal to my post.
I can only shrug and passively observe: What else can be expected in this day and age when ‘feels’ triumph over logic and facts? Embarrassing, but sadly the norm.
That said, I hope you have a wonderful weekend Unherd Reader and I appreciate your contribution, such as it is! 🙂

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

How so?

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

Payback’s a motherfucker.

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago
Reply to  starkbreath

Just to clarify, the above statement refers to what Hamas have brought on themselves. The depravity of them putting their own people in the middle of this war speaks for itself.

Seb Dakin
Seb Dakin
6 months ago

“Objectively it is difficult to see any moral difference..’
Between a dictator bombing his own people (Assad) and a sovereign nation that has been attacked going after its assailants in self-defence, having warned civilians that they need to evacuate (Israel)?
Difficult to see any significant moral difference? Really?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Both are regimes that seem happy to kill hundreds of civilians in order take out a couple of their enemies

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I guess you just expect the Israelis/Jews to just lay back and take it. After 1933-1945, I think the Jews have rightly said “no more”. Perhaps, since you are clearly so pro-Hamas you should fly over to Gaza and help them. Let’s see how you fare. I suspect not to well as you would probably be rapidly thrown off a roof in short order, if any high rise buildings still remain in Gaza.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Loads of high rise buildings remain, here is an article by the BBC on Israel’s warnings to evacuate. Unlike photos of the Ukraine, this one shows what appears to be a very ‘surgical strike’ – and as you can see plenty of high rises remain to chuck off any LBGTQIA+H brigade volunteers for Gaza who are daft enough to go there.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The civilians in Gaza are abused and used by their own government aka Hamas. Hamas is using civilians as human shields, hospitals and schools to store weapons and to disguise entrances to their elaborate tunnel labyrinth.

The fact that more than half, or 57%, of Gazans continue to have a positive attitude towards Hamas as of late October 2023, is very troubling to say the least. It also begs the question how innocent these civilians who support a terrorist group really are! https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,view%20of%20Fatah%20(64%25).

Last edited 6 months ago by Katja Sipple
Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Hamas targetted civilians. Mind you I suppose the definition of Civilian may differ, atfer all the Manchester Arena was a legitimate target for an Islamist bomb, but to me it seemed to be full of young girls. (Why do they so hate young girls? They even paraded one, dead, naked and defiled to the delight of the Gaza public it seems.)
As for Israel wanting to Kill civilians, not according to the BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
6 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

The Left has always had a special definition of morality. I seem to remember that the various Communist experiments of the 20th century resulted in almost 100 million deaths. But these victims died for the cause, sacrifices on the altar of ideology, and that apparently makes it alright for our “moral friends” on the left side of the fence. Coincidentally, the farther left they are, the more okay they seem to be with this part of their history.

For the record: I completely agree with you that there is a significant moral difference between a sovereign nation under attack defending itself, and a dictator killing his own people.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
6 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Literally no one on the Left defends Stalinism or Mao. The Right and colonialism and imperial war however….

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

The left think Morals are pictures painted on walls.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
6 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

150m at least.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
6 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

> You need to evacuate
> Where? How? When? We’re fenced in.
> Sorry, what was that? I didn’t hea-
BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!
Absolutely astonishing the mental leaps people will make to justify Israel’s behaviour.

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
6 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

So how is the population of Gaza doubling every ten years, if they are being annihilated.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
6 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Maybe they should run to the bomb shelters. Oops. Forgot they don’t have any.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
6 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Its a propaganda piece. It doesn’t seek to make sense only spew narrative.

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
6 months ago

Biden’s calls for a ceasefire are another example of his kowtowing to the far left of his party. His weakness is he is afraid to stand up to them. Mr. Roussinos complaints about American hypocrisy reminds me of Inspector Renault in Casablanca. I am shocked, shocked there is hypocrisy going on here.
The author conveniently forgets that Bashar al-Assad used chemical weapons against his own people and was quashing a revolution against his dictatorial rule. Israel was attacked and 1400 innocent civilians were massacred. They are trying to root out a terrorist organization that has threatened to repeat many times over the Oct 7th massacre. I am tired of people who wring their hands about civilian casualties in war, they are inevitable. If Hamas wanted to avoid them, they wouldn’t have started a war. The world cares more about Palestinian lives than Hamas does.
There is a huge moral difference between Syria and Israel and those that refuse to see it are immoral.

Last edited 6 months ago by Benjamin Greco
Friedrich Tellberg
Friedrich Tellberg
6 months ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Well said

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Biden has no idea what he is doing, he is the puppet. Who pulls the strings is moot. As I said previously, rumour has it that this is basically Obama’s 3rd term.

Arthur G
Arthur G
6 months ago

How about the West just grows a pair and stops caring what Hamas and Russian sympathizers think? Give Ukraine and Israel everything they need to win and say sod off to those who hate our civilization. A great start would be expelling non-citizen Hamas sympathizer, and having the police break up demonstrations that call for genocide with trunchions and tear gas.

A D Kent
A D Kent
6 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

The problem there is that The West doesn’t have the miliary wherewihtall to do that now – certainly not to the Russians.

Arthur G
Arthur G
6 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

That nonsense. The US has thousands of tanks, IFVs, artillery systems, and fighter jets in reserve that we will never use again and will pay to dispose of. We have 10 millions cluster munitions that we are planning to dispose of. Send it all.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
6 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Ukraine will not win the war no matter what the US does, and it’s not meant to. Its only purpose is to make mad stacks for the power players.

Dominic A
Dominic A
6 months ago

Ukraine may not ‘win’, but Russia lost in the first few weeks of the ‘special operation’. Putin almost certainly deeply regrets starting it – what a waste of Russian lives, materiel, credibility, with only the puniest of upsides. If he does not, it is testament to his weakness of character.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
6 months ago

“Israel’s war”??? Hamas butchered innocent Israeli civilians and this is Israel’s war?? What, in God’s name, will it take for people like Roussinos, Fazi, and other terror apologists to wake the f*ck up? Deep-pocketed organizations are paying stupid children to march through the streets of civilized countries wearing keffiyahs and bearing crisp new “Palestinian” flags. Are Roussinos and his ilk among those cashing dirty, blood-soaked cheques, or are they just tragically simple?

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
6 months ago

Another Manchester Arena concert?

nigel roberts
nigel roberts
6 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Something tells me you won’t have to wait long.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
6 months ago

So Israel should have turned the other cheek in order to retain some sympathy? To what end? Till the next attack? Israel had absolutely no alternative but to go to war. What drivel.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
6 months ago