I found this piece interesting and insightful, but then I’m a woman of Madonna’s age who lived through the eras she represented.
The dismissiveness of some (presumably) male commenters — your piece is fluff, not worth their consideration, and these women aren’t either, beyond being graded for their gams — is boorish. I appreciated Steve Murray’s more thoughtful response.
Thanks for this commentary,
I don’t mind reading pieces about recent pop culture, including Taylor Swift, but this piece was indeed fluff.
One of the problems with the current music industry is that a small minority of artists have a sort of monopoly power within the industry, while the vast majority of artists struggle to make a living. There was a far more healthy churn and turnover between new and old artists from the 50s-90s.
This doesn’t exist anymore. In another 20 years we will still be reading the same fluff pieces about billionaire Taylor Swift’s trials and tribulations.
She fascinates me, I must admit. A force of nature. Some of her songs still get me up and dancing. Vogue, Ray of Light. Her voice was never great. I’m 62 and also have great legs, or so I’m told…
N Satori
6 months ago
Taylor Swift: great leg-show; shame about the music. In spite of high praise it’s really just more of that slickly produced international pop music churned out by girl-singers the world over.
I saw an ancient video of Carly Simon recently singing ‘Move in together ‘ and was amazed at her leg-show (as Rod Stewart would have it ‘she’s got legs right up to her neck’). Marlene Dietrich’s legs were famously insured for millions by her film studio. Ahhh, happy days.
If the clip I’ve just watched is the one you’re referring to, I think it’s more significant that Carly S just walks on, sits down, introduces the song, and sings it to her own piano accompaniment – and that’s all she needs.
Madonna needed an avalanche of pre-publicity, some supposedly daring but actually rather trite sexual adventurousness, dancers in bondage gear, and full music-video music and production values – none which ever induced me, at least, to watch one of her videos all the way through. And I was in my 20s when her popularity was at its peak.
Some of them aren’t very bright, just as some of my own demographic (ageing men) aren’t very bright.
My dig was directed at the writer of the piece, and the editor of the site. I don’t think either Madonna or Taylor Swift particularly merits intellectual attention, beyond P.T. Barnum’s (or whosever it was) quip about fooling some of the people some of the time. Others will take a different view, of course.
It’s so obviously about much more than that, but perhaps that’s the best response that can be expected from certain quarters.
Just to start with: fame, notoriety, battling the music establishment, womanhood, aging, survival, guts, overcoming failure, political pressure, idiotic comments… and i’m not a particular fan of either of them.
All part of that highly bankable girl-power drama.
An observation that has been made many times over many decades: fans go to pop concerts not to listen to music (recordings are always easier to enjoy) but to pay homage and be in the presence of their idols. A carefully curated heroic (or tragedy queen) back-story stimulates the adoration.
My daughter paid four figures to see Beyoncé’s birthday concert in LA. She said it was absolutely worth every penny – an unforgettable life experience. She’s not a teenager, but she isn’t a mother yet, so unforgettable life experiences vary.
N Satori is one of many male misanthropic misogynists commenting on an article that they shouldn’t have bothered reading and in fact many who haven’t bothered.
Swift has been embroiled in long-standing battles to secure the rights to her own material, which previously would’ve been held by the record companies who’d then have their musicians over a barrel. If you’re going to make comments, best do so from an informed position rather than one of ignorance.
She lost the rights to her first six albums of recorded material but not to the songs themselves. She has solved that problem by re-recording each of these albums in turn. The next one, 1989 (Taylor’s Version), is coming out next week.
I didn’t want to laugh, really I didn’t mmmmffffph.
William Tallon
6 months ago
“This is an extraordinary moment in musical history: two of the most powerful and successful female musicians ever to exist…” More than a little over-the-top! Both are purveyors of bubblegum pop, nothing more. Both put on an excellent show, but high art it ain’t. As for powerful? Well, maybe in the pop music business, but not in the real world. Taylor Swift can reasonably and accurately be described as a singer and musician given that she plays guitar, ukulele, banjo, and piano. Madonna is a singer and dancer only, not a musician…
Martin Goodfellow
6 months ago
I have no real interest in Taylor Swift, but I hope she doesn’t take advice from the writer of this article. Madonna is, was and always will be an example of vulgarity and bad taste in entertainment. Those who like and applaud her should know better. Taylor Swift at least has sex appeal like her music or not.
Too many plazzy nipz’n’tucz leave you looking like a munchkin ?
(Didn’t read the article obvs).
Last edited 6 months ago by Mike Downing
Tyler Durden
6 months ago
Madonna had a string of well-known hits until she was well into middle-age but Taylor Swift´s music has virtually no recognition factor to under-40s.
However if you told that Gen X age group she was the anti-Lana Del Rey, they would understand that she makes weak bubblegum pop that never stays in the mind.
I can only position this as an Internet phenomenon driven by the cultural politics of the Millennial generation. She is a very pretty young woman who complains a lot in the media and is reasonably charming when she appears on a British talkshow.
And I can´t recall anything about the song she recorded with Lanita. It had Snow in the title? She played something on the piano on Strictly Come Dancing last year and it was pleasant Lana-lite but instantly forgettable
And during the 80’s not many of those over 40 would have cared about Madonnas music. It’s simply generational, you like what’s about when you’re around 20, then it slowly moves on
I wasn’t over 40 when Madonna came on the scene, but as the press gushed about how provocative she was, I was thinking “Mae West did all this already”.
George Scipio
6 months ago
What the article overlooks is that at the level of both Madonna and Taylor Swift (and Lady Gaga, mostly) entertainment is a huge business, like the movies. The word for their tours is extravaganza. The actual music is secondary and the “message” is always just a marketing hook. Madonna has a weak voice and can’t play an instrument; hence the whips, etc., to distract us. Swift is an actual singer, composer and player. Her success represents the global crossover triumph of mainstream country music — i.e. not urban, not kink, not aggressive, not preachy, just catchy tunes about relationships. Articles like this one are absurd overthinking of these performers’ depth and aims. The point of it all is simply to make as many millions as possible in the time available. As Frank Zappa observed of the Beatles in 1968 in his charmless irresistible way, they’re only in it for the money. (Philanthropy, too, I guess, to ease everyone’s consciences.)
Michael Shevock
5 months ago
Very thoughtful piece, but Ms. Swift is a self-made billionaire. Maybe, just maybe she doesn’t need advice from journalists.
Champagne Socialist
6 months ago
Lots and lots of highly-triggered middle-aged Alan Partridge types commenting below on things that they don’t understand but make them very angry!
Very amusing!
Your comment doesn’t seem to have elicited the response you were presumably trying to provoke from that particular group! Rather too obvious a ploy on your part, I imagine…
Yet here you are.
I’m sure the Jeremy Clarkson fans are sitting out there just steaming about being called out and trying to think of something funny to say.
We’ll be waiting a while…
Well yes, I suppose I had to be here in order to make my point. You’re very observant, not to mention a dazzlingly clever and witty provocateur! Mea culpa, I lied about that last bit…
You had to respond to my comment to make your point about my comment not eliciting a response thereby invalidating your own response to my comment?
With talent like old Bill on your side its amazing that anyone could think that conservatives are all morons…
I’m sure that exercise in verbosity sounded better in your head than it reads on the page! This is what happens when you start to disappear up your own, not inconsiderable, ego. Responding to this post will only serve to confirm that to be the case.
I found this piece interesting and insightful, but then I’m a woman of Madonna’s age who lived through the eras she represented.
The dismissiveness of some (presumably) male commenters — your piece is fluff, not worth their consideration, and these women aren’t either, beyond being graded for their gams — is boorish. I appreciated Steve Murray’s more thoughtful response.
Thanks for this commentary,
I don’t mind reading pieces about recent pop culture, including Taylor Swift, but this piece was indeed fluff.
One of the problems with the current music industry is that a small minority of artists have a sort of monopoly power within the industry, while the vast majority of artists struggle to make a living. There was a far more healthy churn and turnover between new and old artists from the 50s-90s.
This doesn’t exist anymore. In another 20 years we will still be reading the same fluff pieces about billionaire Taylor Swift’s trials and tribulations.
Elderly man thinks his thoughts on the current music industry are somehow relevant.
They aren’t.
Literary men once deemed Jane Austen’s output fluff. Men whose names are now lost to history.
Who’s Jane Austen?
Why not?
I’m in my 30s
Madonna and her music bore me to death, despite Paglia attempts to make her interesting. Boomer from LA, at 68 women tell me I have great legs.
It wasn’t just Paglia. There were quite a lot of references to Madonna in academic writing in the 1980s and ’90s. There aren’t any now.
She fascinates me, I must admit. A force of nature. Some of her songs still get me up and dancing. Vogue, Ray of Light. Her voice was never great. I’m 62 and also have great legs, or so I’m told…
Taylor Swift: great leg-show; shame about the music. In spite of high praise it’s really just more of that slickly produced international pop music churned out by girl-singers the world over.
I saw an ancient video of Carly Simon recently singing ‘Move in together ‘ and was amazed at her leg-show (as Rod Stewart would have it ‘she’s got legs right up to her neck’). Marlene Dietrich’s legs were famously insured for millions by her film studio. Ahhh, happy days.
Ick.
Guys, please save your old man erotic fantasies for the Daily Mail comments section. Nobody here wants to hear them.
Mmm, I do.
Well, you’re middle-aged too. Don’t you have fantasies – or are they all of a more violent nature?
If the clip I’ve just watched is the one you’re referring to, I think it’s more significant that Carly S just walks on, sits down, introduces the song, and sings it to her own piano accompaniment – and that’s all she needs.
Madonna needed an avalanche of pre-publicity, some supposedly daring but actually rather trite sexual adventurousness, dancers in bondage gear, and full music-video music and production values – none which ever induced me, at least, to watch one of her videos all the way through. And I was in my 20s when her popularity was at its peak.
Carly Simon is under-appreciated.
You prob’ly thought my post was about you!
I wouldn’t be able to identify a Swift song on pain of death. I can identify a Madonna song, and it pains me to admit it.
Grandma is proud of being ancient and ignorant.
World yawns and moves on.
And you madam are just a smug, ignorant moron, or can you do any better?
Surprise me if you can.
Calm down. After all, Taylor Swift is undoubtedly talented. But all pop music is inherently trivial no matter how hard it strives for significance.
That’s a bit arrogant, dontcha think? You aren’t “the world”.
finally an article for all the Unherd readers who are teenaged girls
And not very bright teenaged girls, at that.
Ooh, wow: brilliant dig. Teenage girls are so deserving of your snark.
Some of them aren’t very bright, just as some of my own demographic (ageing men) aren’t very bright.
My dig was directed at the writer of the piece, and the editor of the site. I don’t think either Madonna or Taylor Swift particularly merits intellectual attention, beyond P.T. Barnum’s (or whosever it was) quip about fooling some of the people some of the time. Others will take a different view, of course.
It’s so obviously about much more than that, but perhaps that’s the best response that can be expected from certain quarters.
Just to start with: fame, notoriety, battling the music establishment, womanhood, aging, survival, guts, overcoming failure, political pressure, idiotic comments… and i’m not a particular fan of either of them.
All part of that highly bankable girl-power drama.
An observation that has been made many times over many decades: fans go to pop concerts not to listen to music (recordings are always easier to enjoy) but to pay homage and be in the presence of their idols. A carefully curated heroic (or tragedy queen) back-story stimulates the adoration.
My daughter paid four figures to see Beyoncé’s birthday concert in LA. She said it was absolutely worth every penny – an unforgettable life experience. She’s not a teenager, but she isn’t a mother yet, so unforgettable life experiences vary.
N Satori is one of many male misanthropic misogynists commenting on an article that they shouldn’t have bothered reading and in fact many who haven’t bothered.
How come your cartouche has changed to PINK?!
”battling the music establishment”
Swift has been embroiled in long-standing battles to secure the rights to her own material, which previously would’ve been held by the record companies who’d then have their musicians over a barrel. If you’re going to make comments, best do so from an informed position rather than one of ignorance.
She lost the rights to her first six albums of recorded material but not to the songs themselves. She has solved that problem by re-recording each of these albums in turn. The next one, 1989 (Taylor’s Version), is coming out next week.
That’s a bridge too far.
Dunno about that. Champignon Squatchalist hasn’t commented.
Oh, the biggest insult in the world: to be likened to a teenage girl.
The horror, the horror.
Diva lesson # 1 :
Choose a stem cell clinic where you don’t have ‘dead person smell’ afterwards.
I didn’t want to laugh, really I didn’t mmmmffffph.
“This is an extraordinary moment in musical history: two of the most powerful and successful female musicians ever to exist…” More than a little over-the-top! Both are purveyors of bubblegum pop, nothing more. Both put on an excellent show, but high art it ain’t. As for powerful? Well, maybe in the pop music business, but not in the real world. Taylor Swift can reasonably and accurately be described as a singer and musician given that she plays guitar, ukulele, banjo, and piano. Madonna is a singer and dancer only, not a musician…
I have no real interest in Taylor Swift, but I hope she doesn’t take advice from the writer of this article. Madonna is, was and always will be an example of vulgarity and bad taste in entertainment. Those who like and applaud her should know better. Taylor Swift at least has sex appeal like her music or not.
Prime Madonna would use Taylor as a toothpick.
Too many plazzy nipz’n’tucz leave you looking like a munchkin ?
(Didn’t read the article obvs).
Madonna had a string of well-known hits until she was well into middle-age but Taylor Swift´s music has virtually no recognition factor to under-40s.
However if you told that Gen X age group she was the anti-Lana Del Rey, they would understand that she makes weak bubblegum pop that never stays in the mind.
I can only position this as an Internet phenomenon driven by the cultural politics of the Millennial generation. She is a very pretty young woman who complains a lot in the media and is reasonably charming when she appears on a British talkshow.
And I can´t recall anything about the song she recorded with Lanita. It had Snow in the title? She played something on the piano on Strictly Come Dancing last year and it was pleasant Lana-lite but instantly forgettable
This is literally gibberish.
Do better you worthless hypocrite, if you can, which I very much doubt.
And during the 80’s not many of those over 40 would have cared about Madonnas music. It’s simply generational, you like what’s about when you’re around 20, then it slowly moves on
I wasn’t over 40 when Madonna came on the scene, but as the press gushed about how provocative she was, I was thinking “Mae West did all this already”.
What the article overlooks is that at the level of both Madonna and Taylor Swift (and Lady Gaga, mostly) entertainment is a huge business, like the movies. The word for their tours is extravaganza. The actual music is secondary and the “message” is always just a marketing hook. Madonna has a weak voice and can’t play an instrument; hence the whips, etc., to distract us. Swift is an actual singer, composer and player. Her success represents the global crossover triumph of mainstream country music — i.e. not urban, not kink, not aggressive, not preachy, just catchy tunes about relationships. Articles like this one are absurd overthinking of these performers’ depth and aims. The point of it all is simply to make as many millions as possible in the time available. As Frank Zappa observed of the Beatles in 1968 in his charmless irresistible way, they’re only in it for the money. (Philanthropy, too, I guess, to ease everyone’s consciences.)
Very thoughtful piece, but Ms. Swift is a self-made billionaire. Maybe, just maybe she doesn’t need advice from journalists.
Lots and lots of highly-triggered middle-aged Alan Partridge types commenting below on things that they don’t understand but make them very angry!
Very amusing!
Your comment doesn’t seem to have elicited the response you were presumably trying to provoke from that particular group! Rather too obvious a ploy on your part, I imagine…
Yet here you are.
I’m sure the Jeremy Clarkson fans are sitting out there just steaming about being called out and trying to think of something funny to say.
We’ll be waiting a while…
Well yes, I suppose I had to be here in order to make my point. You’re very observant, not to mention a dazzlingly clever and witty provocateur! Mea culpa, I lied about that last bit…
You had to respond to my comment to make your point about my comment not eliciting a response thereby invalidating your own response to my comment?
With talent like old Bill on your side its amazing that anyone could think that conservatives are all morons…
I’m sure that exercise in verbosity sounded better in your head than it reads on the page! This is what happens when you start to disappear up your own, not inconsiderable, ego. Responding to this post will only serve to confirm that to be the case.
I know you’re impressed, Bill – don’t be ashamed of it, embrace it!