This is exactly why we ( The west) should stamp down mightily on the militant muslim menace, except rather stupidly, we have spent the last 20 years importing vast numbers of them into our countries where they now subvert, breed in large numbers and will shortly be taking over…….helped in no small part by the pathetic liberal left institutions who are too blinded by their student politics ideals to see whats really happening…and if they ever do, it will be too late. This is all going to end rather badly for Europe I am afraid. Seriously considering moving to Poland…….When will people in any significant numbers start to realise that these people dont want to integrate and accept our cultural values and become like us. They simply want whats ours and to take over……..
Look no further than the UK where Islamic politicians now operate at the highest levels nationally and regionally, the current Mayor of London being a case in point.
You mean Sadiq Khan, as mayor of London, and Hamza Yousaf as first minister of Scotland? It’s hardly the “great replacement” is it? And what exactly is an “Islamic politician”? You mean a politician who is also a Muslim? Are you suggesting that these two politicians are part of some Islamic fifth column, about to impose Sharia law? Maybe I’m wrong, and the ULEZ is mentioned somewhere in the Hadith?
What have I said that “verges on libellous”? Engage in discussion and disagreement. Making ad hominem attacks only reveals your true nature and contributes nothing of value to discussion.
I live in a diverse area of London where my Muslim neighbours are wonderful and very family orientated. Their kids are respectful, they don’t drink and don’t keep dogs. I wish I could say the same for others.
I think you will find most muslims in Gaza, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are wonderful, family oriented and with respectful kids.
Still doesn’t work out too well for non muslims though.
And people who don’t like or keep dogs are generally avoidable, I have found, especially when it’s driven by religious prohibition, that cannot be challenged, imposed by a prophet who was rather less reluctant about slaves and nine year old “wives”.
Very family oriented , to the point of honour killing their own daughters when they infringe some behavioural standard imposed by their culture .Wonderful !
Mark – the ‘except we rather stupidly’ issue is the West actively spreading and supporting islamist extremists across the globe for the last 40 years. From the toppling of secular governments in the Cold War to the Mujihidin, to Iran-Contra, the PetroDollar deal with the devil, to shipping extremists to Bosnia & Kosovo, the Iraq catastrophe, Yemen, Libya, Syria and many many more disastrous interventions ‘we’ have never given the moderates a chance. Not anywhere.
People in Europe, since the middle-ages, have been referring to the Jews using similar language, and look where that got us. I strongly doubt you will move to Poland by the way, and in any case, what makes you think the Poles want you there?
Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Increased antisemitism in Europe is entirely down to Muslim immigration . This was the finding of the EU’s own suppressed report .
Norman Plantagenet Tudor Appleby would have been more fun .
Good luck with that then. Go on then, off you go, grab your gun and your helmet and your flak jacket and your badge and your big stampy boots and I’ll see you on the other side (maybe, if you’re lucky and I’m not) ✌❣️
Unfortunately Poland has thrown off one oppressive tyrant, communism and replaced it with another Catholiism. Poland is not a good place to bring up daughters.
As someone who identifies as left leaning and liberal I would advise you not to throw out the baby with the bath water, because I agree with everything you’re saying (except the bit about moving to Poland), and my liberal friends feel the same way. It’s only the extremes of both right and left who are beyond reason. You may be surpried at how many like-minded people there out there if would stop with the labeling and be open minded.
Ms. Knight, the terms “right” and “left” have no meaning beyond identifying allies and enemies. Our political spectrum can be more usefully thought of as spreading across” collectivists” and the “individual rights”. In this sense, extreme collectivists are Communists, of whom the Fascists are a specific variant of the 1930’s. For “individual rights” the extreme is Libertarians. I belong to this extreme. I believe the whole point of the United States is the unique belief that the government exists to protect my rights to be an individual.
Your Comment merely obfuscates. “Labeling” can be a useful tool, but only if one uses good labels.
You’ll have to learn Polish first, and believe me Mark it’s not an easy language. The strings of consonants are unpronouncable for anglo-germanic speakers and then there’s the declension of nouns, even names and place names.
While I certainly have concerns, I don’t think that Muslims here in the US present a massive problem, although I certainly recognize the potential for some small-scale mayhem. At this point there are a reported 3.45 million Muslims in the US and I would guess that a lot of them are either born here or are US citizens who have converted. Of course, it doesn’t take a lot of people to create something bad but, whether we accept it or not, the majority of Muslims do not want to have anything to do with this stuff. The elected ones who have been so pro-Palestinian are another story and they are problematic.
N Satori
1 year ago
Hamas re-invented horror? The path to uninhibited cruelty was already well established by ISIS who openly boasted about their barbarity. Not only did this terrify their enemies but displayed a defiant rejection of Western, post-Christian morality.
James E Mitchell, in his book Enhanced Interrogation: Inside the Minds and Motives of the Islamic Terrorists Trying to Destroy America, provides some insight into the extreme Islamist view of the West. Their attitude to the weak and vulnerable is quite opposite to the West’s humanitarian morality – they definitely do not expect the meek to inherit the Earth.
In his interrogations Mitchell also discovered an interesting Islamic variation on the ‘useful idiots’ concept. The Islamic terrorist leaders he interrogated believed that those in the West who oppose and try to undermine the fight against Islamist terror are (though they do not realise it) motivated by Allah who has planted the seed of the destruction of the West in their minds.
This is why we in the West need our own Christian resurgence. Post-modernism is rooted in cultural relativism which, although it allows us to feel luxuriantly superior and distanced from cultural idiosyncrasies, actually makes us wishy-washy and weak. The message throughout the ages is that if you abandon G*d as a foundational societal building block, your civilization will give way to all kinds of bizarre ideas and debased forms of idolatry, so much so that it becomes weak enough to be conquered.
That bird has flown. The absence of such a resurgence does not preclude our ability to withstand Islamism. Our parents and grandparents fought in two worldwide existential conflicts to remain free (as in democratically free) and they didn’t take up arms in the name of a god.
Whether we do withstand Islamism is another matter, but wishing for a religious resurgence is not only unnecessary but i”d argue (and frequently do!) counterproductive.
With respect, you are wrong. There would’ve been many atheists/agnostics among them. Were they less worthy of our appreciation for their sacrifice? As stated, religious belief is not required in the fight for freedom.
They may have been doubters, but they shared basic Judeo-Christian values. Today the secular largely don’t.
No one sane is going to fight to preserve wokism, not even the woke. The woke will be the first to convert to Islam and submit wholeheartedly. They’ll all join the religious police. They’ll love it!
Your values are imposing your cause du jour on everyone else, by Gov’t force if necessary. COVID and the trans issue have exposed you. Woke is your religion and in that, you’re harsher puritans than Cromwell ever was.
That is a remarkably unprovable and silly assertion.
If there was a benevolent supreme being, there would be no need for foxholes except for those dug by foxes.
Who is more woke than the current Archbishop of Canterbury ? He envies Islam and would love a role as junior partner ensuring the tax on infidels gets paid .
I do hope you are correct, but if you are, then the entirety of the Old Testament is pure nonsense, as it chronicles the opposite over millennia. Regardless, I choose to side with God’s word.
Julian – I understand the essence of your point. I would emphasise a slightly different, but related, perspective – that of Christian cultural values and history, rather than the actuality of the Christian faith as such. Steve Murray suggested you were “wishing for a religious resurgence”, but I believe you may have been thinking more along the lines of the Christian-based value system represented by democratic freedom. Surely this is the foundation of the Allied response to the evils of fascism in WW2? I am not a Christian, but I value the Christian heritage of democracy and tolerance that has shaped my life and worldview and consider it is probably the best political framework around, in spite of its very obvious deficiencies. Our civilisation has been weakened from within by the insidious influence of Marx’s worldview which, in the 21st Century, has been the basis for the devastating impact of woke thinking on our body politic, and the framework of power upon which the Woking Class elites have consolidated their control over us.
I have so much trouble understanding what you, and others who throw the word “woke” around, are actually saying.It’s a relatively new word and seems to have become a catch-all, put-down for things the user doesn’t like rather than actually explaining what it is they don’t like. How can one make an argument against “woke” without knowing what is meant?
To each their own. I have equal trouble in understanding how/why you appear adhere to the ‘woke’ agenda and apparently justify its offshoots like the ‘cancel culture’ and other egregious manifestations. I think there are many people out there who perfectly understand what is meant by the recent evolution of the word ‘woke’, including many who themselves are Woke. I don’t have to explain myself to you. If you haven’t grasped the essence of its meaning yet you probably are disinclined to. There are plenty of excellent, articulate posts variously in Unherd which amply illuminate this phenomenon if you take the trouble to understand rather than merely reacting to these.
Fifty-five percent of Americans say “wokeism” encompasses being informed,educated on, and aware of social injustices. In that case, I confess I am woke.
Was it Nietzsche who told the world of philosophy that ‘God is dead’? Perhaps it would be more true to say that ‘God has become redundant’. He no longer has any authority. In fact the concept of authority itself has become strangely fluid.
Anyway, there will be no resurgence of Christianity, however socially desirable that may be, without evidence of the supernatural. Just look at the Church of England – devoid of the miraculous and sunk by its own trivial attempts to be ‘relevant’.
I’m a Christian and let me enlighten you as you seem happy to ignorantly dismiss my faith. My faith is predicated on historical happenings. You dispute they happened and I believe they did, but you can never disprove Jesus life,death and resurrection and I believe they are historically true. So please by all means disbelieve and think you know better but do not make the mistake of thinking you know why other people believe. I don’t know why you don’t but it doesn’t permit me to act like I know why you don’t and to therefore dismiss your thoughts. And I’m not doing this to start an argument about the veracity of the Christian faith just to correct your misunderstanding and arrogant reasoning.
Exactly, there is no evidence of the supernatural that’s why it’s necessesary for the faithful to believe. But if you know something for a fact you don’t need to believe.
I’m not sure Christianity has a monopoly on morality. You don’t have to be Christian to understand & know that moral & cultural relativism sit atop a hideous slippery slope that slithers to a place where justice, reason &logic are lost – mob rule replacing democracy, debate, discussion & acceptance that disagreement does not equate with being a ‘nazi’ or similar hyperbolic insults (silly, yes, but which nonetheless can ruin lives & careers).
The Middle East Eye is a rather dubious and pro-Palistinian source (to say the least). As for ‘relatively amicable relations’ – with a movement of fanatical anti-Zionists and uncompromising Jew-haters! That adverb ‘relatively’ will sure have its work cut out!
Still, if a Lefty can find a blemish in Israeli behaviour I guess he’s bound to milk it to the max.
Israel just last week bombed Syrias two main airports. That’s the country they border who is fighting against islamist extremists. You don’t have to milk these things as far as Israel are concerned – they bathe in it like Cleosoddingpatra.
I would be very interested to know the tactical reasons behind that bombing. Would you? Or are you satisfied with juvenile moral point scoring?
Are you familiar with Churchill’s orders to sink a major part of the French battle fleet after France had fallen to the Germans in WW2 or going further back into history Nelson’s destruction of the neutral Danish fleet in the battle of Copenhagen over fears that they were about to side with Napoleon’s France? In a battle for survival fine points of morality become a dangerous luxury.
Mahan Air flight 146, which left Tehran for Aleppo before the attack on Aleppo and Damascus airports, supports Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard (IRGC-QF) QODS force. The flight diverted back to Tehran.
I don’t think it is as simplistic a trajectory as the author claims. World politics are far more complex now as unipolarity post -1991 has broken down, due to a mix of American led Foreign Policy hubris( especially under Uniparty Military Industry complex driven administration’s) and an attendant crumbling of the strong institutions of Western modernity.
Ethnic troubles in a multi- polar world will intensify. The West has its own problems in huge multi- cultural immigrants who are effectively the ” fifth column” for Hamas.
Witness what happened in Arras France yesterday.
If these “sleeper cells” are activated in unison across the West, there will be greater turmoil.
Plus Slavic ” chauvinism” is of all hues and shades, including in being enmeshed in quasi- Teutonic revanchism in Ukraine ( a liberal use of symbols of that infamous 1930s regime a pointer.)
The fact is that the post Soviet era engendered a sense of complacency in the West led by the US that everything was now permanently in its grip.
That led it’s economics and cultural arena to lose all sense of Westphalian nation- statism, and unleash ” globalism” as a credo.
The fact that this “borderless ” Neo Empire was a convenient Trojan horse to let in every kind of foe was lost on these strategists.
So unless Western policy makers take tough decisions ( unable even after these horrific events) and delink ideological imperatives of Wokery from foreign policy, such horrors will recur more and more.
The rest of the world is clearly not in synch with the” rules- based order” of Pax Americana always..
Perhaps, it’s a good thing that many principled Americans own 330 million or more guns….the 2nd Amendment to the American Constitution turns out to have been quite prescient and a good thing after all. There’s great concern about ‘sleeper cells’ in Western countries that have allowed way too many people in from ‘intolerant’ societies, who not only bring their ethnic problems and conflicts to their host country and but who are also seemingly unwilling to assimilate into Western culture. Notice the uptick in ‘citizen defense’ that is happening in the USA. People are wary and will act if threatened. One has to be very careful about ‘trespassing’ on private property. And then, look at the frequent bombings in Sweden; Its citizens just have to sit and hope the authorities will act.
Well this beats all the attempts at political recuperation. Use the un folding madness in the Middle East as an argument to defend the outdated US Constitution 2nd Amendment. Mindboggling Republican craziness.
The mass shootings you refer to are committed by inner city gangs, not by law-biding gun owners exercising our Second amendment right.
That they occur in Democrat-run cities, the mayors of which have defunded and defanged their police departments and set no-bail, low prosecution policies, are the reasons for these shootings.
The warfare of young, illiterate men for whom gang culture is a lifestyle choice, as their rap and hip hop lyrics demonstrate, is not a Second Amendment issue: their weapons are illegally procured. It is a cultural problem.
Exactly. We didn’t just leave NYC because of high taxes. The most worrisome issue is inner city violence. When we go back to the city for a few days, it’s rather ‘tense’. People are fearful of using the subways. And of course you would never walk the parks at night nor even be on the streets in the wee hours of the morning. It is a ‘cultural issue’, which Democrats refuse to acknowledge and address. The people being hurt the most are poor inner city people.
We lived in NYC Gramercy Park) in the 80s: I used to take the subway up to Bloomingdale’s. It was scary even back then, so I switched to the bus, which was a much longer commute, but I felt safer. We were in the City for Christmas 2019 and nearly every building was covered in dark scaffolding and plywood. The entire atmosphere was menacing. I loved New York; it was always my ambition to live there. Seeing what its become – especialy after Rudy Giuliani chased away the crime and made it livable again – is tragic, but a completely avoidable, if only the residents would stop voting for the DiBlasios, Adamses, Cortezes, and their ilk.
Up until recently, I lived in NYC for 35 years so I’ve seen the ups and downs. The ‘ups’ were certainly during the Giuliani (Republican) and Bloomberg (independent) administrations. DeBlasio and his kooky wife (democrat progressives) brought the city to its knees; Covid finished the job via reckless and corrupt Gov. Cuomo’s (democrat) policies. NYC has since lost 500,000 people fleeing to better run ‘red’ republican states. Only 20% of NYC votes republican. It will take decades for the city to recover if ever.
• Violent crime in New York began falling three years before Giuliani took office in 1994, U.S. Justice Department records show. Property crime began falling four years before. The decline accelerated during his administration, but the “turnaround” he claims credit for started before him.
• Independent studies generally have failed to link the tactics of the Giuliani administration with the large decrease in crime rates.
Rather, many criminologists believe the decline in New York, as in Chicago, San Diego, Miami and elsewhere, was the result of a complex mix of social and demographic changes, including a break in the crack cocaine epidemic, an improving economy, and increased prison terms for proven lawbreakers.
Better policing tactics and policies were likely part of it, experts say, but not to the extent Giuliani claims.
“Demographics have an awful lot to do with this, and these are very, very large social forces,” said Jeffrey Fagan, co-director of the Center for Crime, Community and Law at the Columbia Law School in New York. “It’s hard to imagine policing, no matter how smart and effective it is, giving the kind of leverage … to move a macro force like crime.”
He didn’t even author the ‘broken windows theory’ – that was Wilson & Kelling (social scientist elites, oh my!) and it is Giuliani’s police commissioner, William Bratton who was the great advocate and implementer of Broken Windows.
You are so wrong. Mass school shootings are carried out by white, suburban young males. Inner city shootings are predominately black on black youth in inner cities.So put away your weapons, Allison, they’re not coming for you.
You are correct. I think the previous response meant that by far the most gun deaths in this country are inner city, black on black gang shootings. By far. The number of people who die in mass shootings each year is eclipsed by the numbers of African Americans shot in inner city areas every year.
I am neither strongly for or against gun ownership. I think it should definitely be well regulated (wording straight from the constitution) at the state level.
But it is naive to think that most shootings are carried out by law abiding gun owners. That is simply not true.
In fact, most of the youths who carry out these mass shootings have zero legal right to have the weapons used.
Should this be open for discussion on how to prevent these events? Yes.
But outright weapons bans will not solve the inner city deaths which are by far the bigger problem. There are too many guns in circulation that will work for decades to come. There are dark websites where you can purchase weapons and ammo from around the world.
And pipe bombs can be built if weapons are not handy. Knives can be used as they were by gangs of old.
I think this is a cultural problem. A societal problem. Not a gun problem per se. Though I do see room for regulations that make sense. Both the far left and far right take these issues and make them impossible to solve for the rest of us. They hijack these issues.
I would suggest in both cases, mass shootings and gang warfare it is lack of emotional self – control. Britain was heavily armed after WW1 and WW2 and many men had killed at close quarters and violent crime was very low.
After WW2, tens of thousands of British men had gone through Commando/ Special forces Training in how to kill in every conceivable manner yet desisted when they got into arguments
Switzerland is very heavily armed and has a very low murder rate from guns.
The USA needs to to ask why there are so many people who lack the emotional maturity required to control murderous impulses and why so many have these impusles. We accept two year olds have temper tantrums but we expect self control from twelve year olds.
The USA needs to to ask why there are so many people who lack the emotional maturity
“No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby. The mistake that is made always runs the other way. Because the plain people are able to speak and understand, and even, in many cases, to read and write, it is assumed that they have ideas in their heads, and an appetite for more. This assumption is a folly.” H L Mencken
I have many rights her in UK; I don’t choose to exercise them simply because ‘it is my right’. I am unsure why someone would want something specifically designed to kill.
Self-defense is seemingly a forgotten concept in the UK? When I lived in Kensington London during the mid-1990’s a neighbor got robbed of her very expensive jewelry at knifepoint. And we read that stabbings are more frequent than ever there. How does one defend against that?
Not having children killed by guns in their schools is a forgotten concept in the US. Enough with the “what about stabbing” argument. By the way, a knife kills one personne at a time. A fully automatic AK-47 bursts 100 rounds per minute. Do the math.
So let’s talk about magazine capacity. That is the issue. Not guns.
The Constitution calls for a well regulated militia…so let’s regulate militias who want rights to high capacity magazines for self defense. Otherwise, individuals do not need to house high capacity weapons at home.
People could join well regulated militia groups which have rules about storage of weapons, etc. That would take away the argument that we are not allowed to defend against a tyrannical government, but would require safety provisions of a higher level for those who wish to train for this type of defense and own these high capacity magazines. If these weapons get into the wrong hands, that specific militia group could be held responsible. Each state could decide what these rules are. Which is how our system of government should work.
If we could speak reasonably with each other and not just scream at each other, perhaps we could find solutions.
I know both the hard left and hard right will hate this reply.
As they do in Switerzland, I think. The time for doing this was pre 1970s – the modern NRA has whipped people into such a frenzy that they no longer feel, think or act straight.
It is truly remarkable how the “well regulated militia/ necessary to the security of a free State” clause has been ignored by all, especially those who for whom the 2nd is an article of faith.
You have to be there to defend yourself and the odds are long. Would your neighbour have carried her gun around the house in case she was robbed? Would she have been justified in killing a robber?
I’d rather be robbed at knifepoint than gunpoint – in that way the UK story is a success. We will never be rid of violence – just manage the problem, or as in the States, don’t. I’d argue this has been done far better in the UK/Europe (where the homicide rate is 1/4 of the US). I’ll tell you how we defend against it – 4 years for carrying a knife with intent to harm, 10 years for a gun. Moreover, ‘your Kensington neighbours’ need not be overly concerned for, as your co-commenter AB pointed out, this kind of violence is generally carried out by and against the ‘others’.
Indeed. And the idea that those 400 million guns are somehow protecting the American people from foreign agents, when they are not even protecting American children from themselves.
The best arguments for the 2nd Amendment have been made by Democrats. When you let mobs run riot, defund law enforcement, attempt to prosecute citizens for defending themselves and others, refuse to prosecute robbery and carjacking and eliminate cash bail for repeat offenders, you leave people with no other choice but to arm themselves.
The sleeper cells, with their potential for inflicting mass destruction and chaos, represent the proverbial “elephant in the room.” As I write this, they may be already formulating their plans, and my concern is what they may have in store for us. If we get hit a second time–something on the order of a second 9/11 (or worse!)–I shudder to think about what will follow.
Actually, I thought 9/11 was kinda evil genius… minimum loss of life with maximum terror…?Positively considerate and restrained when compared to some of the shit the western industrial military complex has pulled on other countries… Hiroshima, anyone?
“The rest of the world is clearly not in synch with the” rules- based order” of Pax Americana always..”
The world is changing. Get ready for a diaper-change. Or shit yourself.
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem went to Baghdad in 1941 and instigated a progrom with 800 Jews being murdered and women having their breasts cut off. GMJ went to Germany, met Himmler and approved of the Final Solution. The GMJ went to Bosnia and recruited Muslims for the SS. The GMJ was Arafat’s uncle.
Hamas was founded by th Muslim Brotherhood who murdered Sadat in 1981 who was well on the way of developing peaceful relations with Israel. Hamas overthrew Al Fatah in Gaza and murdered hundreds. Some of the earliest murders was of four homosexual men.
Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood have murdered fellows Muslims for decades; why should we be surprised at their recent activity?
Precisely, it is now time for Arnaud Almaric! He knew how to deal with such people.
Johan Grönwall
1 year ago
It’s starting to look like a ceremony, a ritual, beheading babies and watch their blood soil the ground. What a bronze age thing to do!
What antisemites always have liked to accuse the jews of now muslims do to appease their god, who seems to have no qualms to have killed anyone who disagree with him. How can we otherwise interpret the lack of compassion from the muslim world? The atrocities is in line with what the ideology say.
ISIS always backed up their blood letting with citations from the Quran.
(Flagged and deleted on unHerd but not on the Guardian. I’ll have another go…)
The writer for obvious reasons focuses on events in Israel, but I believe there is a wider and more fundamental pattern.
Iraq – civil war. Iran – funding proxy wars. Syria – civil war. Nigeria – insurgency. Chechnya – independence war. Gaza – terrorist sponsor. Libya – civil war. Yemen – civil war sponsored by Saudi Arabia. Pakistan – religious persecution. Qatar – funding terrorist groups. Azerbaijan – ethnic war with Armenia. Ethiopia – civil war. Niger – insurgency. Mali – insurgency.
These represent the majority of today’s potential or ongoing focuses of instability and war, excepting Ukraine and Taiwan. What they all have in common is a resurgent political Islam, something not seen for several centuries. This resurgence is often heavily influenced by Wahabism, a philosophy spread from Saudi Arabia by the Kingdom exporting its problem clerics abroad to secure stability at home. What Wahabism promises is a return to the key tenants of Islam.
Christianity began a return to its key tenants 500 years ago. This became the Reformation. The Christian Reformation is generally seen as a moderation of that religion, and it pathed the way to our tolerant, secular Western societies today. Many suggest Islam, as the more recent of the Abrahamic religions, will undergo its own reformation in due course.
I believe what we are now witnessing with the resurgence of political Islam is Islam’s own reformation. Yet Christianity and Islam are very different belief systems with very different tenants. The Prophet Mohamed fought, conquered, and subjugated. Submission – literally “islam” in Arabic – is the key tenant of Islam. It is a false prospect to think an Islamic reformation will be moderating or peaceful.
No one knows where a reformation of Islam might lead. What we do know is there’s not much established nation states can do to dowse fires burning in men’s hearts. This will play out over decades or centuries and be bitterly contested.
That’s an interesting perspective but do we have centuries? Climate change will force civilization to change because the planet will become uninhabitable in most places and we don’t even know what that will actually look like.
Christianity did not return to its key tenants in the Reformation. If that were the case, it would have sought out its Eastern history. Instead it went further and further, splintering away from the first 1000 years even more.
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
This conflict has lasted for almost a century
The modern phase of the conflict has been going on since the early nineteenth century and the rise of Wahhabism, which led to a sharp increase in attacks on Jewish communities in the Maghreb and elsewhere, prompting growing numbers of Jews to emigrate to the Ottoman provinces now erroneously called ‘Palestine’.
However, there has never been a time when Jews have been able to live unmolested for very long in Arab societies. Even the much vaunted ‘tolerance’ of Andalucia was often broken by events such as the massacres of August 1013 in which more than 1000 Jews where murdered in a single night.
To have a grown-up debate about this topic we need to be aware of the entire history.
Not when Pro Palestinian demonstrators mention Khabar.
James Kirk
1 year ago
Liberal naivété. There is no justification for the Hamas attack. It was not political or religious, it was criminal. Palestine, whether from fear or inclination, harbours criminals. I don’t see Gaza identifying or handing over their criminals, nor do I see their left leaning supporters imploring them to do so. I don’t see the clerics of Islam amending the Quran to say it’s not OK to kill infidels. If they have then Hamas ignore them. The fact they should need reminding is condemnation enough. That the liberal left support it makes them accessories to murder. Convicted murderers don’t get to vote.
René Descartes
1 year ago
A good and thoughtful article which strangely omits mention of antisemitism. Hamas is oblivious to the plight of Palestinians. Its consuming passion is a hatred of Jews.
“The politically impotent and half-witted Bashar al- Assad”!
What world do you live in? De te fabula narratur! (It is yourself you are describing!)
Can anyone take such a commentator seriously?
Iraq – civil war. Iran – funding proxy wars. Syria – civil war. Nigeria – insurgency. Chechnya – independence war. Gaza – terrorist sponsor. Libya – civil war. Yemen – civil war sponsored by Saudi Arabia. Pakistan – religious persecution. Qatar – funding terrorist groups. Azerbaijan – ethnic war with Armenia. Ethiopia – civil war. Niger – insurgency. Mali – insurgency.
These represent the majority of today’s potential or ongoing focuses of instability and war, excepting Ukraine and Taiwan.
What they all have in common is a resurgent political Islam, something not seen for several centuries. This resurgence is often heavily influenced by Wahabism, a philosophy spread from Saudi Arabia by the Kingdom exporting its problem clerics abroad to secure stability at home. What Wahabism promises is a return to the key tenants of Islam.
Christianity began a return to its key tenants 500 years ago. This became the Reformation. Mirroring this, we are now witnessing Islam’s own reformation. Yet Christianity and Islam are very different belief systems with very different tenants.
The Muslim prophet fought, conquered, subjugated and forced submission. That concept of submission – literally “islam” in Arabic – remains the key tenant of Islam. In contrast, Christianity’s lord is a very benign character.
The Christian Reformation is generally seen as a moderation of that religion, pathing the way for our tolerant, secular Western societies today. It is a false prospect to think Islam’s reformation will be moderating or peaceful. The convulsions are only just beginning and there’s not much the established nation states can do to dowse fires burning in men’s hearts.
It’s women who do all of the child rearing and seed the ideas of the next generation. The Western students out supporting Hamas and Palestine are overwhelmingly female. Given the opportunity to secretly vote for something else, Afghan women voted for hardliners. It’s hard to solely blame men for something largely propograted by and supported by many women.
Research has shown that women also voted more conservatively as they get older and create a family, which when you think of it makes sense. One does want ones’s family to survive and thrive. That said a large amount of women are not getting married today for a variety of reasons- so they want to keep their options open (supporting abortion) and feel good (virtue signaling) as they move forward alone into the future.
Many women? How many. I don’t believe that most women freely voted for hardliners in Afghanistan.
Bernard Brothman
1 year ago
Here in the United States we have many on the left celebrating Hamas butchery. Look at the pro-Hamas protests and rallies at major universities, such as Harvard. Look at the meek or non-committal responses from University Presidents who are apparently afraid of offending some oppressed group and I do not mean Jews in this case.
Thankfully we are seeing some pushback including rescinding of a job offer of a pro-Hamas student who glorified the murders and terrorism, and plans for donors to stop their donations to these schools.
How do you fight an enemy that values death, including death of its own people to advance its cause? Probably with death. That’s what they asked for.
Davina Powell
1 year ago
Fuckingfuckingfucking… just an experiment… keep getting my posts censored, apparently the immediate asterisks aren’t enough… English, one of those weird and rare languages that has actual singularly taboo words… I like to think that’s why my carefully crafted posts keep getting taken down… but hey, what the f**k do I know? I’m Welsh and apparently on a steep learning curve because “dead bodies piled up in mounds” is less offensive than a written word…
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Davina Powell
1 year ago
Every
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TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago
I’ve heard that H a ma as was actually nurtured by Israel as an alt to the PLO? Do any of us have the relevant expertise to dissect this corpse? Seems to me very timely that as all the NATO countries have been demilitarised by gifts to Ukriane that this was able to even happen. A friend of mine told me a few years ago that we live in a psychopathic society and a I laughed as I drank our martinis. Nothing more he said then could be more true.
Hamas was created by the Muslim Brotherhood who murdered Sadat in 1981 which is why Egypt does not want them in their country. Sadat was well on the way to creating a lasting peace with Israel. A peace treaty with Jordan would have created the security for rapid economic growth. The GCC countries would have supplied $Bs or investment.
Arafat then Hamas have scuppered all and every attempt at peace.
Historically Gaza has been part of Egypt, perhaps as far back as 4,000 years but now they are content for it to be a foreign country.
William Brand
1 year ago
The Arab Israeli war is totally about religion. Islam and Judisim are very close in their theology. It all comes down to ownership of the temple mount and certification as the true faith mandated by God. It is far more important than land ownership. For the price of one jet fighter we could buy all the land in question and resettle the Palestinians in Africa.
Davina Powell
1 year ago
Dos i chwarae efo dy nain… is THAT better you censorious cunts? f**k in Welsh… your language is very weird… I can’t believe you would accept people writing about accepting mass murder more than me writing an innocuous word… because freakishly it offends your sensibilities more. Whoever you are censoring this, you have some fucked up morality…
For every effect there is a cause. The author, and apparently you, do not understand this basic dynamic. America and its European toadies have sucked the world dry via their empires and need for perpetual hegemony. There’s an old English statement to the effect that even the worm, when cut, will turn. Europe, America and Zionism are now the recipients of an accumulated fury they themselves have engendered. For every effect, however unpleasant, there is indeed a cause. What goes around comes around.
The author makes a lot of depressingly good points, with two glaring exceptions: 1) Saudi Arabia has backed away from its proposed agreement with Israel, going so far as to be showing solidarity with Iran, its regional nemesis; and 2) the US and UN have been supporting Hamas, first through the UNRWA and just recently through Biden’s 6 billion dollar gift to Iran in exchange for hostages.
The deserts of Arabia and Africa only need water to become the bread basket of the world. With GMO crops that can be irrigatied with sea water which is plentiful. That can be done. Just add genes from sea grass or mangrove..we can then create a place to put the displaced Palestinian population. The attractive nuisance of the temple mount can be delt with by packing it with radioactive waste. If no one can have it a problem is solved. Alas this will not be done and the problem will only be solved when Christ returns and tells the Jews and Moslems who has rights to the temple. God made this mess and he w ill fix it. Look at he book of Ezikel to find out whet he plans to do.
Barbara Manson
1 year ago
“corpses of dead babies”
We discard ours as “medical waste”.
The barbaric attack on innocent people, carried out by Hamas, is to be roundly condemned, and Israel has every right to hunt down the perpetrators and destroy them, or bring them to justice. However, the attack cannot be considered on its own without recourse to understanding how we got to this point. It was the West who created Israel from Palestine and it has been the Israelis who have failed to resolve the issue of Palestinian statehood. Ordinary, peaceful Palestinians have been ghettoised: kettled in Gaza and the West Bank, and suffocated by a neighbour who controls their borders, water and power, while at the same time dehumanising them, exploiting them as a source of cheap labour. When moderate voices in the West avoid confronting Israel about the plight of the Palestinians, others, with malintentions and a violent, anti-Western agenda, step in and exploit the situation.
Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
I have to disagree with you Elvis. To say war destroys lives is a truism. To say all war is bad is however not true. Unless free people had been prepared to wage war against Nazi tyranny and Japanese Imperialism in WW2 the consequences for mankind would have been very bad. Not to be prepared to fight to defend your freedom invites tyranny and serfdom. Pacifist tropes such as “ all war is bad” also insensitively denies the huge and valiant sacrifice which ordinary people have made to defend freedom and a better way of living.
I’m making a very general point here, Malcomb.
When I mean war, I mean it in the complete sense. Or we can simply call it “conflict” as well. It is the precursor to the examples you mention. How did the axis powers come about? Because of war. Why would people be pushed to have to defend their country? Because of war.
I would never deny the efforts people would make to defend themselves, and I wouldn’t say it’s a bad thing to do. Of course, defence is necessary if the alternative means destruction of yourself and your people. But what is the fundamental condition for such a thing to come about?
I look at things in what I feel is their complete sense and meaning; I would say it’s almost a Platonic position (perhaps it’s not suitable for this kind of forum. This is what I’m now sensing.)
War and conflict come about from the choices of individuals or groups of individuals. Since to wage, or engage in, or escalate conflict or war is a choice, this means there are other choices that can be explored. I think it’s quite slavish and cynical to assume conflict is the default way of things.
So my question is; what are the choices out there for the leaders of countries regarding the escalating conflicts in the Middle East? And with Russia and Ukraine? Do you not fear of escalating conflicts that can truly disrupt the order of things and bring worldwide havok? Many people do have this fear. Will there not have to be a point when peace and diplomacy will be needed?
Thank you for your reasonable and thoughtful engagement.
Yes, a very obvious and banal statement is it not, Bernard? And yet here we are, in a world with now even more increasing conflict, death and destitution.
It’s almost as if people in the world choose what is bad and destructive rather than what is diplomatic, sensible and restorative.
Makes you think, doesn’t it.
Yes, Germany and Japan are now great civilised places after some sensible and restorative measures were unfortunately required.
Makes you think, doesn’t it?
We are off the point again now. We are engaged in murdering children and murdering and raping women, killing other men and women, again for the same old reasons (power, misapplied religious faith, racial hatred, ownership of land etc) somewhere in the world all the time.
Are there never any adults in our societies?
I was merely countering Gordon’s claim that firebombing Germany and nuking Japan are what made them advanced countries, as though the US did them a favour.
The murder was done by adults. Some ideologies are murderous. Nobel Prize winners have supported murderous regimes such as Sartre for Maoist China.
Germany was the most educated nation in the World ithe 1930s.
Some societies have a cruel blood lust, other do not; why? The Cosa Nostra is a product of Sicily, why not Florence ?The German Swiss did not undertake mass murder yet a few miles over the border in Germany, German speakers did: why?
Germany was NOT “nuked” by the USA.
For God’s sake Bocho do catch up, otherwise you are an embarrassment to the subcontinent, as I am sure SGJ would agree.
I immediately corrected myself in the second post, which i’m sure you saw. Your persistent pedantry leads you to miss the entire point with painful regularity.
A poster was arguing that the destruction of Germany and Japan by the US and allies led them to become advanced societies. I pointed out they were advanced societies long before then.
What is this ‘civilised’ of which you speak?! Ooooh, people like you, you mean? Lol lol lol Yep, it does make one think, doesn’t it? Lol “Sensible”? “Restorative measures”??! Now isn’t that a lovely euphemism for… Go on, describe to me IN DETAIL what that entailed… I bet the people left behind are eternally grateful for what their relatives endured because hey, now you think their homeland is just dandy…✌❣️
During an infestation it is sensible to kill all the pests and destroy their breeding grounds: restorative to rebuild an environment where they can never return.
Go on, call them , “cockroaches”, I very f*****g dare you… hmmm, now, let me think, where have I heard that kinda dehumanising language before? I seem to remember it was something to do with a ‘final solution’ or some such shit… hmmm, I’m sure it’s there, right on the edges of my brain… can anyone help me out?
I guess you’re not big on eco systems… I shall tell you a tale about someone else who thought like you, some bloke called Mao.
So, let me begin.
Once upon a time, a man called Mao was told that sparrows were eating tons of planted seed that never got the chance to grow into crops, so if they could just stop the pests eating the grain, there would be more food for the people. So the people across the land came out of their homes, day after day, banging pots and pans and the whole land was alive with sound so the sparrows were too frightened to land and eat grains until eventually they fell from the skies in their millions, dead from exhaustion. Success! Now EVERY seed could germinate and successfully grow into food. Unfortunately, the sparrows also ate all sorts of insects that also liked to eat grain, but which nobody had really paid any attention to before… until the sparrows, their natural predators, were removed and they were able to replicate in plague proportions. Unfortunately, this led to the worst famine the country had EVER experienced…
Some people just never learn from history… I’m sure there’s an adage about that – ignorance/history/doom or some such shit…
One world, one love, no borders (metaphorical or otherwise) ✌❣️
Stalin wanted a 100,000 Nazis executed, at least ; Britain and the USA persuaded him to allow the Nuremburg Trials. After WW1 and WW2, many wanted Germany reduced to a large farm.
…or maybe it’s the world which chooses it for people Elvis, when they forget the nature of the world. Compassion before justice has a well formed habit of fomenting chaos.
I totally agree Elvis. “Love they neighbour as thy self” is a human virtue which manifests interpersonally, and locally. I can personally care for the tree before me, but my personal virtue can’t act on the whole forest. At scale, what is a personal virtue, atrophies into empty ideological groupthink. And what might be virtuous towards my tree, may be disastrous for the forest overall.
“The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” Nothing is more destructive than humanity’s blind confidence in its own good faith, and its complete inability to distinguish “true compassion” (whatever that may be) from self-interest masquerading as compassion. It’s the people who claim to be helping that do the most harm – and it’s why Madison political structures work so well, and why the profit motive raises the poor out of poverty much faster than the muddle-headed philanthropy of the self-righteous.
You’re talking about ideological (and perhaps theological) structures, Kirk. That’s just things of the mind. Things that rest on weak foundations (which I suppose you’re pointing out and I’d say you’re right to do so)
But I’m talking about compassion, something of the heart, something that stirs within people. Some people nurture it, most neglect it.
This is my final comment on UnHerd as my thoughts and feelings are not suited here. That’s been made evident.
Your thoughts and feelings were unheard and since you posted they have been heard: not only that, you prompted a useful exchange of ideas.
Not suited here? … how did you conclude that? … upticks downticks? … IGNORE and keep contributing.
That’s very compassionate of you Gordon.
There seem to be a bunch of new subscribers, who are not used to having their internal narratives questioned. Elvis seems like a nice bloke. He should stay on, as you say.
What a shame I hope you don’t leave. I liked your comments about compassion & feel similarly
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Agreed, we have been horrified by the Hamas attack.
But what is going on right now ? Brutal retaliation on Gaza, with hundreds of civilians killed, thousands of homes erased, a complete blockade for 2.3 Mio inhabitants – with very soon the wounded not being treated in hospitals that lack electricity, starvation for the remaining, even the displaced crowd…
In order to allow Israel to defend itself, the west powers are burying their face in the sand about those multiplied horrors, which are definitely war crimes, that no moral stance can justify. A cease fire with negotiation is an absolute necessity.
The ‘but’ here means that the original commenter is being consistent in their position. They recognise that the attacks that Hamas inflicted on Israel was a horrific thing. But they are also pointing out it is not right to blithely ignore or downplay the horrors that are now being inflicted on Palestine.
So we can infer that original commenter is anti-violence in the complete sense, and are making an argument that is consistent with that.
Does that not sound reasonable to you?
What we can infer is that 99% of people who are “anti violence” are not themselves suffering the violence. If they were, they would have a very different response.
A D Kent
1 year ago
Again the headline doesn’t quite match the contents – I’m a new subscriber here & I’m finding myself concerned that I’ve accidentally come to the Daily Telegraph to be honest – certainly this piece wouldn’t be out of place there.
I don’t think Hamas have reinvented horror this week – rather they’ve just distilled it. They’ve essentially taken the images and horrors that might have taken a year or two to materialise in an interested observers various time-lines and presented them in 48 hours. This isn’t a new definition – it’s a compilation, a greatest-hits of horror – and our media has lapped it up (how could they not). Now it’s Israel’s turn to do precisely the same.
As for Russia’s own atrocities in Ukraine – I fear we’re about to see what a bunch of rank amateurs they are compared to the Israelis – certainly in terms of the ratio of civilians to combatant deaths.
I was referring to Elvis Quinn, AD Kent and Davina Powell who have expressed these sentiments themselves on this very thread.
I generally assume people read the posts on a thread before they start commenting on it.
I’m a new subscriber here too, and my feelings are similar. I’d read some thoughtful articles in the past and so chose to subscribe for more content, but it now just seems to me to be another war-mongering rag just like the rest.
Simply a one-sided bias to a very destructive conflict, in which many civilians, both Palestinian and Israeli, have lost their lives and will continue to do so.
Agree with the latter part of your statement. However the despicable brutality of the Hamas attack against innocent civilians does make it a difficult proposition to establish moral equivalence in the context of the last 7 days.
I’ve no interest in “moral equivalence”.
All war is a waste of human life and potential.
God wills that each one of us individuals in this world be a peace-keeper.
Unfortunately world politics doesn’t run that way. It’s more Hobbesian and nasty.
I can see where you are coming from though.
And I too have had issues with some of UH analysts for lack of nuance and an ability to grasp complexities.
The persons “lacking nuance” are the head-in-the-sand types who just can’t understand why we can’t all get along.
What’s terrible is that now a country defending its citizens from rape and murder is considered “right wing.”
That is a lot to do with the Overton Window having shifted extreme Left, and the identification of certain sections as being ” victims” only. Ignoring factual history.
I was shocked by an article that is pure imperialist propaganda. And even worse, by the comments in support of this dim witted travesty of distortion and ignorance of historical causes for current events. Interestingly, the author says somewhere that poor Bin Laden thought that he would accomplish something with 911. Sad to inform him that Bin Laden did accomplish something: in provoking America to create and then pursue the WAR ON TERROR, he has sealed its fate. America is dying as we speak, and as an American who has been appalled by our behavior for a long time now, I must say I see an opportunity for some schadenfreude here.
Unherd is clearly an echo chamber of one-sidedness – in which the West is moral and its ‘enemies’ immoral. Anyone who follows what has happened since the Balfour declaration onwards knows that this conflict is about land. Hamas, arguably not a state actor, committed crimes against civilians but these crimes are about to be surpassed in magnitude by war crimes by Israel (and backed by US and UK) and this will increases the sense of injustice amongst arab people. Israel is never held accountable by the so-called ‘international community’ and arguably it is this failure to hold Israel accountable that has led to this current conflict. It is ludicrous to claim Hamas attrocities are uniquely inhumane whilst condoning starving the civilian population of Palestine of aid, medicine, water, fuel, food and forcing the internal movement of 1 million people in one day whilst bombing them as they move. On display is a a one-sided moral outrage that condones the state violence of Israel.
I don’t see anyone here “condoning starving the civilian population of Palestine of aid etc”. What did Hamas think would happen after they did what they did. They either didn’t think it through or they did, and now they’ve got exactly what they wanted, so people like you can say that Israel is the bad guy. The perpetrator becomes the victim. That’s what psychopaths do, it’s very clever. What has Hamas done to improve the lives of the average Palestinian? Yassar Arafat died with many millions of dollars stashed away.
No one on ‘your side’ ever has any explanation about what Israel is supposed to do when a terrorist fires a rocket from a Palestinian school building into Israeli civilian communities.
If you say that Israel should not destroy that rocket launcher, you are simply saying that you value Palestinian children above Israeli children. Personally I find that immoral and reprehensibly racist.
Yep… people and their ‘moral authority’… kinda makes you wanna puke and cry and puke and cry and… doesn’t it? Sometimes hypocrisy knows no bounds…
Perhaps people should think on this… “but the childrens!!!” Every 3 seconds, 24/7 , somewhere on this bounteous earth a mother watches her baby starve to death at her empty breast… so in the time it took to write the above article that’s how many dead babies, exactly, I wonder? Oh, but the optics aren’t quite the same because…? Yeah, because if you wanna know who’s responsible for that shit people MAY have to look in the mirror…
One world, one love, no borders ✌❣️
…the problem with all the competing narratives of who owns the land, including your one, is the starting point in time. Jewish occupation is a couple of millennia older than the Balfour declaration, and the Ottoman conquest of the region.
At the time of the British occupation of Palestine 96% of its population was Palestinian Christian and Muslim. 4% was Palestinian Jewish. 0% was Eastern European Ashkenazi Jewish.
There’s been quite a big change in Palestine’s demographics since then.
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This is exactly why we ( The west) should stamp down mightily on the militant muslim menace, except rather stupidly, we have spent the last 20 years importing vast numbers of them into our countries where they now subvert, breed in large numbers and will shortly be taking over…….helped in no small part by the pathetic liberal left institutions who are too blinded by their student politics ideals to see whats really happening…and if they ever do, it will be too late. This is all going to end rather badly for Europe I am afraid. Seriously considering moving to Poland…….When will people in any significant numbers start to realise that these people dont want to integrate and accept our cultural values and become like us. They simply want whats ours and to take over……..
Look no further than the UK where Islamic politicians now operate at the highest levels nationally and regionally, the current Mayor of London being a case in point.
Sadiq Khan is not a ‘calm leader’ – he projects aggression and anger.
Lol saw him on the tube once and absolutely no one said a thing to him except “WANKER”. He’s not a likeable character even in his own community.
Mr Kahn speaks softly, but look at the content of what he says and most importantly the outcome of his actions.
You mean Sadiq Khan, as mayor of London, and Hamza Yousaf as first minister of Scotland? It’s hardly the “great replacement” is it? And what exactly is an “Islamic politician”? You mean a politician who is also a Muslim? Are you suggesting that these two politicians are part of some Islamic fifth column, about to impose Sharia law? Maybe I’m wrong, and the ULEZ is mentioned somewhere in the Hadith?
‘ Hardly the great replacement is it ‘
Too right , I preferred Boris .
I am no fan of the Mayor of London, but he is a democratic politician. Your comment verges on libellous.
I don’t think any comments here can be, actually, legally libellous. It’s free speech.
What have I said that “verges on libellous”? Engage in discussion and disagreement. Making ad hominem attacks only reveals your true nature and contributes nothing of value to discussion.
But when was the demographic transformation of London that resulted in Mayor Khan put to a vote ?
I live in a diverse area of London where my Muslim neighbours are wonderful and very family orientated. Their kids are respectful, they don’t drink and don’t keep dogs. I wish I could say the same for others.
Of course there are always exceptions to the rule.
I think you will find most muslims in Gaza, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are wonderful, family oriented and with respectful kids.
Still doesn’t work out too well for non muslims though.
And people who don’t like or keep dogs are generally avoidable, I have found, especially when it’s driven by religious prohibition, that cannot be challenged, imposed by a prophet who was rather less reluctant about slaves and nine year old “wives”.
Very family oriented , to the point of honour killing their own daughters when they infringe some behavioural standard imposed by their culture .Wonderful !
Mark – the ‘except we rather stupidly’ issue is the West actively spreading and supporting islamist extremists across the globe for the last 40 years. From the toppling of secular governments in the Cold War to the Mujihidin, to Iran-Contra, the PetroDollar deal with the devil, to shipping extremists to Bosnia & Kosovo, the Iraq catastrophe, Yemen, Libya, Syria and many many more disastrous interventions ‘we’ have never given the moderates a chance. Not anywhere.
People in Europe, since the middle-ages, have been referring to the Jews using similar language, and look where that got us. I strongly doubt you will move to Poland by the way, and in any case, what makes you think the Poles want you there?
Increased antisemitism in Europe is entirely down to Muslim immigration . This was the finding of the EU’s own suppressed report .
Norman Plantagenet Tudor Appleby would have been more fun .
Good luck with that then. Go on then, off you go, grab your gun and your helmet and your flak jacket and your badge and your big stampy boots and I’ll see you on the other side (maybe, if you’re lucky and I’m not) ✌❣️
Unfortunately Poland has thrown off one oppressive tyrant, communism and replaced it with another Catholiism. Poland is not a good place to bring up daughters.
Why not?
‘They’ did that before from 1919 to 1939 and despite ‘us’ idiotically giving them the ‘blank cheque’ it didn’t end well.
If the UK and France hadn’t been absolutely gutless from 1936 to 1939, they wouldn’t have needed your help.
Firstly ‘we’ couldn’t afford to, secondly ‘we’ thought Adolph had a bit of a case.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing they say.
How did Hitler have ‘a bit of a case?
Come on Stanhope, you’ve made a very provocative statement, now back it up.
As someone who identifies as left leaning and liberal I would advise you not to throw out the baby with the bath water, because I agree with everything you’re saying (except the bit about moving to Poland), and my liberal friends feel the same way. It’s only the extremes of both right and left who are beyond reason. You may be surpried at how many like-minded people there out there if would stop with the labeling and be open minded.
Well said Clare!
Ms. Knight, the terms “right” and “left” have no meaning beyond identifying allies and enemies. Our political spectrum can be more usefully thought of as spreading across” collectivists” and the “individual rights”. In this sense, extreme collectivists are Communists, of whom the Fascists are a specific variant of the 1930’s. For “individual rights” the extreme is Libertarians. I belong to this extreme. I believe the whole point of the United States is the unique belief that the government exists to protect my rights to be an individual.
Your Comment merely obfuscates. “Labeling” can be a useful tool, but only if one uses good labels.
I think I clarified my position rather well.
You’ll have to learn Polish first, and believe me Mark it’s not an easy language. The strings of consonants are unpronouncable for anglo-germanic speakers and then there’s the declension of nouns, even names and place names.
I bet he can’t even cope with my WELSH language lol
LoL
Who can? Adding some vowels would help.
While I certainly have concerns, I don’t think that Muslims here in the US present a massive problem, although I certainly recognize the potential for some small-scale mayhem. At this point there are a reported 3.45 million Muslims in the US and I would guess that a lot of them are either born here or are US citizens who have converted. Of course, it doesn’t take a lot of people to create something bad but, whether we accept it or not, the majority of Muslims do not want to have anything to do with this stuff. The elected ones who have been so pro-Palestinian are another story and they are problematic.
Hamas re-invented horror? The path to uninhibited cruelty was already well established by ISIS who openly boasted about their barbarity. Not only did this terrify their enemies but displayed a defiant rejection of Western, post-Christian morality.
James E Mitchell, in his book Enhanced Interrogation: Inside the Minds and Motives of the Islamic Terrorists Trying to Destroy America, provides some insight into the extreme Islamist view of the West. Their attitude to the weak and vulnerable is quite opposite to the West’s humanitarian morality – they definitely do not expect the meek to inherit the Earth.
In his interrogations Mitchell also discovered an interesting Islamic variation on the ‘useful idiots’ concept. The Islamic terrorist leaders he interrogated believed that those in the West who oppose and try to undermine the fight against Islamist terror are (though they do not realise it) motivated by Allah who has planted the seed of the destruction of the West in their minds.
This is why we in the West need our own Christian resurgence. Post-modernism is rooted in cultural relativism which, although it allows us to feel luxuriantly superior and distanced from cultural idiosyncrasies, actually makes us wishy-washy and weak. The message throughout the ages is that if you abandon G*d as a foundational societal building block, your civilization will give way to all kinds of bizarre ideas and debased forms of idolatry, so much so that it becomes weak enough to be conquered.
That bird has flown. The absence of such a resurgence does not preclude our ability to withstand Islamism. Our parents and grandparents fought in two worldwide existential conflicts to remain free (as in democratically free) and they didn’t take up arms in the name of a god.
Whether we do withstand Islamism is another matter, but wishing for a religious resurgence is not only unnecessary but i”d argue (and frequently do!) counterproductive.
Our parents and grandparents believed in God and that’s what gave them the backbone to take up arms in defense of freedom and humanity.
With respect, you are wrong. There would’ve been many atheists/agnostics among them. Were they less worthy of our appreciation for their sacrifice? As stated, religious belief is not required in the fight for freedom.
They may have been doubters, but they shared basic Judeo-Christian values. Today the secular largely don’t.
No one sane is going to fight to preserve wokism, not even the woke. The woke will be the first to convert to Islam and submit wholeheartedly. They’ll all join the religious police. They’ll love it!
That’s a load of rubbish. I doubt that you know what values the secular live by. It’s certainly not a belief system.
Your values are imposing your cause du jour on everyone else, by Gov’t force if necessary. COVID and the trans issue have exposed you. Woke is your religion and in that, you’re harsher puritans than Cromwell ever was.
You absolutely do not know my values. What you said is total, narrow minded projection.
There are no atheists in foxholes.
That is a remarkably unprovable and silly assertion.
If there was a benevolent supreme being, there would be no need for foxholes except for those dug by foxes.
Who is more woke than the current Archbishop of Canterbury ? He envies Islam and would love a role as junior partner ensuring the tax on infidels gets paid .
Exactly!
Maybe your grandparents believed in god but not mine. Please speak for yourself.
Exactly.
I do hope you are correct, but if you are, then the entirety of the Old Testament is pure nonsense, as it chronicles the opposite over millennia. Regardless, I choose to side with God’s word.
Julian – I understand the essence of your point. I would emphasise a slightly different, but related, perspective – that of Christian cultural values and history, rather than the actuality of the Christian faith as such. Steve Murray suggested you were “wishing for a religious resurgence”, but I believe you may have been thinking more along the lines of the Christian-based value system represented by democratic freedom. Surely this is the foundation of the Allied response to the evils of fascism in WW2? I am not a Christian, but I value the Christian heritage of democracy and tolerance that has shaped my life and worldview and consider it is probably the best political framework around, in spite of its very obvious deficiencies. Our civilisation has been weakened from within by the insidious influence of Marx’s worldview which, in the 21st Century, has been the basis for the devastating impact of woke thinking on our body politic, and the framework of power upon which the Woking Class elites have consolidated their control over us.
I have so much trouble understanding what you, and others who throw the word “woke” around, are actually saying.It’s a relatively new word and seems to have become a catch-all, put-down for things the user doesn’t like rather than actually explaining what it is they don’t like. How can one make an argument against “woke” without knowing what is meant?
To each their own. I have equal trouble in understanding how/why you appear adhere to the ‘woke’ agenda and apparently justify its offshoots like the ‘cancel culture’ and other egregious manifestations. I think there are many people out there who perfectly understand what is meant by the recent evolution of the word ‘woke’, including many who themselves are Woke. I don’t have to explain myself to you. If you haven’t grasped the essence of its meaning yet you probably are disinclined to. There are plenty of excellent, articulate posts variously in Unherd which amply illuminate this phenomenon if you take the trouble to understand rather than merely reacting to these.
Fifty-five percent of Americans say “wokeism” encompasses being informed,educated on, and aware of social injustices. In that case, I confess I am woke.
Was it Nietzsche who told the world of philosophy that ‘God is dead’? Perhaps it would be more true to say that ‘God has become redundant’. He no longer has any authority. In fact the concept of authority itself has become strangely fluid.
Anyway, there will be no resurgence of Christianity, however socially desirable that may be, without evidence of the supernatural. Just look at the Church of England – devoid of the miraculous and sunk by its own trivial attempts to be ‘relevant’.
Faith is defined as the belief in something for which no evidence exists. Keep up with the good work.
I think we all know what faith is – but is it any use other than as a kind of spiritual placebo?
I’m a Christian and let me enlighten you as you seem happy to ignorantly dismiss my faith. My faith is predicated on historical happenings. You dispute they happened and I believe they did, but you can never disprove Jesus life,death and resurrection and I believe they are historically true. So please by all means disbelieve and think you know better but do not make the mistake of thinking you know why other people believe. I don’t know why you don’t but it doesn’t permit me to act like I know why you don’t and to therefore dismiss your thoughts. And I’m not doing this to start an argument about the veracity of the Christian faith just to correct your misunderstanding and arrogant reasoning.
Unfortunately, without God we get people like Nietzsche, who think themselves a god.
With God we get people like ISIS, like Torquemada.
Wasn’t Torquemada a ‘converso’? Thus even more dangerous!
Allegedly so. Probably a touch of the “self-hater” about him.
He was a sadist.
To name but a few.
My upvote didn’t register.
It’s a comfort to many but they don’t seem able to keep it to themselves, they are compelled to convert, control and destroy.
Exactly, there is no evidence of the supernatural that’s why it’s necessesary for the faithful to believe. But if you know something for a fact you don’t need to believe.
Any form of religion is the problem not the answer.
I’m not sure Christianity has a monopoly on morality. You don’t have to be Christian to understand & know that moral & cultural relativism sit atop a hideous slippery slope that slithers to a place where justice, reason &logic are lost – mob rule replacing democracy, debate, discussion & acceptance that disagreement does not equate with being a ‘nazi’ or similar hyperbolic insults (silly, yes, but which nonetheless can ruin lives & careers).
Exactly.
That’s the ISIS with whom Israel had relatively amicable relations across the border they shared because they were fighting the (mostly secular) Syrian government.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/ultimate-opportunism-tacit-israeli-islamic-state-alliance-syria
The Middle East Eye is a rather dubious and pro-Palistinian source (to say the least). As for ‘relatively amicable relations’ – with a movement of fanatical anti-Zionists and uncompromising Jew-haters! That adverb ‘relatively’ will sure have its work cut out!
Still, if a Lefty can find a blemish in Israeli behaviour I guess he’s bound to milk it to the max.
Israel just last week bombed Syrias two main airports. That’s the country they border who is fighting against islamist extremists. You don’t have to milk these things as far as Israel are concerned – they bathe in it like Cleosoddingpatra.
I would be very interested to know the tactical reasons behind that bombing. Would you? Or are you satisfied with juvenile moral point scoring?
Are you familiar with Churchill’s orders to sink a major part of the French battle fleet after France had fallen to the Germans in WW2 or going further back into history Nelson’s destruction of the neutral Danish fleet in the battle of Copenhagen over fears that they were about to side with Napoleon’s France? In a battle for survival fine points of morality become a dangerous luxury.
Mahan Air flight 146, which left Tehran for Aleppo before the attack on Aleppo and Damascus airports, supports Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard (IRGC-QF) QODS force. The flight diverted back to Tehran.
Israel bombed Syria because Syria launched rockets against Israel first.
There are may 3 letter agencies in the west.
I don’t think it is as simplistic a trajectory as the author claims. World politics are far more complex now as unipolarity post -1991 has broken down, due to a mix of American led Foreign Policy hubris( especially under Uniparty Military Industry complex driven administration’s) and an attendant crumbling of the strong institutions of Western modernity.
Ethnic troubles in a multi- polar world will intensify. The West has its own problems in huge multi- cultural immigrants who are effectively the ” fifth column” for Hamas.
Witness what happened in Arras France yesterday.
If these “sleeper cells” are activated in unison across the West, there will be greater turmoil.
Plus Slavic ” chauvinism” is of all hues and shades, including in being enmeshed in quasi- Teutonic revanchism in Ukraine ( a liberal use of symbols of that infamous 1930s regime a pointer.)
The fact is that the post Soviet era engendered a sense of complacency in the West led by the US that everything was now permanently in its grip.
That led it’s economics and cultural arena to lose all sense of Westphalian nation- statism, and unleash ” globalism” as a credo.
The fact that this “borderless ” Neo Empire was a convenient Trojan horse to let in every kind of foe was lost on these strategists.
So unless Western policy makers take tough decisions ( unable even after these horrific events) and delink ideological imperatives of Wokery from foreign policy, such horrors will recur more and more.
The rest of the world is clearly not in synch with the” rules- based order” of Pax Americana always..
Perhaps, it’s a good thing that many principled Americans own 330 million or more guns….the 2nd Amendment to the American Constitution turns out to have been quite prescient and a good thing after all. There’s great concern about ‘sleeper cells’ in Western countries that have allowed way too many people in from ‘intolerant’ societies, who not only bring their ethnic problems and conflicts to their host country and but who are also seemingly unwilling to assimilate into Western culture. Notice the uptick in ‘citizen defense’ that is happening in the USA. People are wary and will act if threatened. One has to be very careful about ‘trespassing’ on private property. And then, look at the frequent bombings in Sweden; Its citizens just have to sit and hope the authorities will act.
Well this beats all the attempts at political recuperation. Use the un folding madness in the Middle East as an argument to defend the outdated US Constitution 2nd Amendment. Mindboggling Republican craziness.
@Dannielle – quite so. With around 500 mass shootings already this year in the US, I’m not sure the Aras tragedy would be noticed.
The mass shootings you refer to are committed by inner city gangs, not by law-biding gun owners exercising our Second amendment right.
That they occur in Democrat-run cities, the mayors of which have defunded and defanged their police departments and set no-bail, low prosecution policies, are the reasons for these shootings.
The warfare of young, illiterate men for whom gang culture is a lifestyle choice, as their rap and hip hop lyrics demonstrate, is not a Second Amendment issue: their weapons are illegally procured. It is a cultural problem.
Exactly. We didn’t just leave NYC because of high taxes. The most worrisome issue is inner city violence. When we go back to the city for a few days, it’s rather ‘tense’. People are fearful of using the subways. And of course you would never walk the parks at night nor even be on the streets in the wee hours of the morning. It is a ‘cultural issue’, which Democrats refuse to acknowledge and address. The people being hurt the most are poor inner city people.
We lived in NYC Gramercy Park) in the 80s: I used to take the subway up to Bloomingdale’s. It was scary even back then, so I switched to the bus, which was a much longer commute, but I felt safer. We were in the City for Christmas 2019 and nearly every building was covered in dark scaffolding and plywood. The entire atmosphere was menacing. I loved New York; it was always my ambition to live there. Seeing what its become – especialy after Rudy Giuliani chased away the crime and made it livable again – is tragic, but a completely avoidable, if only the residents would stop voting for the DiBlasios, Adamses, Cortezes, and their ilk.
Up until recently, I lived in NYC for 35 years so I’ve seen the ups and downs. The ‘ups’ were certainly during the Giuliani (Republican) and Bloomberg (independent) administrations. DeBlasio and his kooky wife (democrat progressives) brought the city to its knees; Covid finished the job via reckless and corrupt Gov. Cuomo’s (democrat) policies. NYC has since lost 500,000 people fleeing to better run ‘red’ republican states. Only 20% of NYC votes republican. It will take decades for the city to recover if ever.
A yes the “wonderful” Giuliani…
The parasitic grifter.
• Violent crime in New York began falling three years before Giuliani took office in 1994, U.S. Justice Department records show. Property crime began falling four years before. The decline accelerated during his administration, but the “turnaround” he claims credit for started before him.
• Independent studies generally have failed to link the tactics of the Giuliani administration with the large decrease in crime rates.
Rather, many criminologists believe the decline in New York, as in Chicago, San Diego, Miami and elsewhere, was the result of a complex mix of social and demographic changes, including a break in the crack cocaine epidemic, an improving economy, and increased prison terms for proven lawbreakers.
Better policing tactics and policies were likely part of it, experts say, but not to the extent Giuliani claims.
“Demographics have an awful lot to do with this, and these are very, very large social forces,” said Jeffrey Fagan, co-director of the Center for Crime, Community and Law at the Columbia Law School in New York. “It’s hard to imagine policing, no matter how smart and effective it is, giving the kind of leverage … to move a macro force like crime.”
He didn’t even author the ‘broken windows theory’ – that was Wilson & Kelling (social scientist elites, oh my!) and it is Giuliani’s police commissioner, William Bratton who was the great advocate and implementer of Broken Windows.
Meanwhile, the stats show another story – red states have the highest crime rates, per head:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_violent_crime_rate
You are so wrong. Mass school shootings are carried out by white, suburban young males. Inner city shootings are predominately black on black youth in inner cities.So put away your weapons, Allison, they’re not coming for you.
The reason they’re not coming for Allison… is because she’s not putting away her guns.
“Allison the Gungslinger”… it’s the wild, wild Florida!
You are correct. I think the previous response meant that by far the most gun deaths in this country are inner city, black on black gang shootings. By far. The number of people who die in mass shootings each year is eclipsed by the numbers of African Americans shot in inner city areas every year.
I am neither strongly for or against gun ownership. I think it should definitely be well regulated (wording straight from the constitution) at the state level.
But it is naive to think that most shootings are carried out by law abiding gun owners. That is simply not true.
In fact, most of the youths who carry out these mass shootings have zero legal right to have the weapons used.
Should this be open for discussion on how to prevent these events? Yes.
But outright weapons bans will not solve the inner city deaths which are by far the bigger problem. There are too many guns in circulation that will work for decades to come. There are dark websites where you can purchase weapons and ammo from around the world.
And pipe bombs can be built if weapons are not handy. Knives can be used as they were by gangs of old.
I think this is a cultural problem. A societal problem. Not a gun problem per se. Though I do see room for regulations that make sense. Both the far left and far right take these issues and make them impossible to solve for the rest of us. They hijack these issues.
I would suggest in both cases, mass shootings and gang warfare it is lack of emotional self – control. Britain was heavily armed after WW1 and WW2 and many men had killed at close quarters and violent crime was very low.
After WW2, tens of thousands of British men had gone through Commando/ Special forces Training in how to kill in every conceivable manner yet desisted when they got into arguments
Switzerland is very heavily armed and has a very low murder rate from guns.
The USA needs to to ask why there are so many people who lack the emotional maturity required to control murderous impulses and why so many have these impusles. We accept two year olds have temper tantrums but we expect self control from twelve year olds.
The USA needs to to ask why there are so many people who lack the emotional maturity
“No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby. The mistake that is made always runs the other way. Because the plain people are able to speak and understand, and even, in many cases, to read and write, it is assumed that they have ideas in their heads, and an appetite for more. This assumption is a folly.” H L Mencken
Well said
“by far the most gun deaths in this country are inner city, black on black gang shootings.”
Pants on fire FALSE. Perhaps you have confused a per capita rate with the ooverall rate.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/258931/number-of-firearm-deaths-in-the-united-states-by-ethnicity/
I have many rights her in UK; I don’t choose to exercise them simply because ‘it is my right’. I am unsure why someone would want something specifically designed to kill.
Self-defense is seemingly a forgotten concept in the UK? When I lived in Kensington London during the mid-1990’s a neighbor got robbed of her very expensive jewelry at knifepoint. And we read that stabbings are more frequent than ever there. How does one defend against that?
Not having children killed by guns in their schools is a forgotten concept in the US. Enough with the “what about stabbing” argument. By the way, a knife kills one personne at a time. A fully automatic AK-47 bursts 100 rounds per minute. Do the math.
So let’s talk about magazine capacity. That is the issue. Not guns.
The Constitution calls for a well regulated militia…so let’s regulate militias who want rights to high capacity magazines for self defense. Otherwise, individuals do not need to house high capacity weapons at home.
People could join well regulated militia groups which have rules about storage of weapons, etc. That would take away the argument that we are not allowed to defend against a tyrannical government, but would require safety provisions of a higher level for those who wish to train for this type of defense and own these high capacity magazines. If these weapons get into the wrong hands, that specific militia group could be held responsible. Each state could decide what these rules are. Which is how our system of government should work.
If we could speak reasonably with each other and not just scream at each other, perhaps we could find solutions.
I know both the hard left and hard right will hate this reply.
It’s idealistic, unrealistic and naive.
As they do in Switerzland, I think. The time for doing this was pre 1970s – the modern NRA has whipped people into such a frenzy that they no longer feel, think or act straight.
It is truly remarkable how the “well regulated militia/ necessary to the security of a free State” clause has been ignored by all, especially those who for whom the 2nd is an article of faith.
You have to be there to defend yourself and the odds are long. Would your neighbour have carried her gun around the house in case she was robbed? Would she have been justified in killing a robber?
I’d rather be robbed at knifepoint than gunpoint – in that way the UK story is a success. We will never be rid of violence – just manage the problem, or as in the States, don’t. I’d argue this has been done far better in the UK/Europe (where the homicide rate is 1/4 of the US). I’ll tell you how we defend against it – 4 years for carrying a knife with intent to harm, 10 years for a gun. Moreover, ‘your Kensington neighbours’ need not be overly concerned for, as your co-commenter AB pointed out, this kind of violence is generally carried out by and against the ‘others’.
The usual Barrows “in Democrat-run cities” yadayadayada…
Indeed. And the idea that those 400 million guns are somehow protecting the American people from foreign agents, when they are not even protecting American children from themselves.
Exactly.
The best arguments for the 2nd Amendment have been made by Democrats. When you let mobs run riot, defund law enforcement, attempt to prosecute citizens for defending themselves and others, refuse to prosecute robbery and carjacking and eliminate cash bail for repeat offenders, you leave people with no other choice but to arm themselves.
or by gun advocates – when everyone else has a gun, you’d be foolish not to get one (or so it seems). A tragic race to the bottom.
The sleeper cells, with their potential for inflicting mass destruction and chaos, represent the proverbial “elephant in the room.” As I write this, they may be already formulating their plans, and my concern is what they may have in store for us. If we get hit a second time–something on the order of a second 9/11 (or worse!)–I shudder to think about what will follow.
Maybe this time around, Europe/the rest of the world will not rush to help you…
Actually, I thought 9/11 was kinda evil genius… minimum loss of life with maximum terror…?Positively considerate and restrained when compared to some of the shit the western industrial military complex has pulled on other countries… Hiroshima, anyone?
If you hate America that much, you’re welcome to move to Saudi Arabia. I’m sure you won’t miss any of the rights you enjoy as a woman in the West.
Women enjoy rights in the West, save in America!
The first thing totalitarians do is ensure you are un-armed.
It’s akin to non native plants and species that take over and kill the host that supported them.
“The rest of the world is clearly not in synch with the” rules- based order” of Pax Americana always..”
The world is changing. Get ready for a diaper-change. Or shit yourself.
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem went to Baghdad in 1941 and instigated a progrom with 800 Jews being murdered and women having their breasts cut off. GMJ went to Germany, met Himmler and approved of the Final Solution. The GMJ went to Bosnia and recruited Muslims for the SS. The GMJ was Arafat’s uncle.
Hamas was founded by th Muslim Brotherhood who murdered Sadat in 1981 who was well on the way of developing peaceful relations with Israel. Hamas overthrew Al Fatah in Gaza and murdered hundreds. Some of the earliest murders was of four homosexual men.
Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood have murdered fellows Muslims for decades; why should we be surprised at their recent activity?
Precisely, it is now time for Arnaud Almaric! He knew how to deal with such people.
It’s starting to look like a ceremony, a ritual, beheading babies and watch their blood soil the ground. What a bronze age thing to do!
What antisemites always have liked to accuse the jews of now muslims do to appease their god, who seems to have no qualms to have killed anyone who disagree with him. How can we otherwise interpret the lack of compassion from the muslim world? The atrocities is in line with what the ideology say.
ISIS always backed up their blood letting with citations from the Quran.
We can’t back down from this also.
Molech .
(Flagged and deleted on unHerd but not on the Guardian. I’ll have another go…)
The writer for obvious reasons focuses on events in Israel, but I believe there is a wider and more fundamental pattern.
Iraq – civil war. Iran – funding proxy wars. Syria – civil war. Nigeria – insurgency. Chechnya – independence war. Gaza – terrorist sponsor. Libya – civil war. Yemen – civil war sponsored by Saudi Arabia. Pakistan – religious persecution. Qatar – funding terrorist groups. Azerbaijan – ethnic war with Armenia. Ethiopia – civil war. Niger – insurgency. Mali – insurgency.
These represent the majority of today’s potential or ongoing focuses of instability and war, excepting Ukraine and Taiwan. What they all have in common is a resurgent political Islam, something not seen for several centuries. This resurgence is often heavily influenced by Wahabism, a philosophy spread from Saudi Arabia by the Kingdom exporting its problem clerics abroad to secure stability at home. What Wahabism promises is a return to the key tenants of Islam.
Christianity began a return to its key tenants 500 years ago. This became the Reformation. The Christian Reformation is generally seen as a moderation of that religion, and it pathed the way to our tolerant, secular Western societies today. Many suggest Islam, as the more recent of the Abrahamic religions, will undergo its own reformation in due course.
I believe what we are now witnessing with the resurgence of political Islam is Islam’s own reformation. Yet Christianity and Islam are very different belief systems with very different tenants. The Prophet Mohamed fought, conquered, and subjugated. Submission – literally “islam” in Arabic – is the key tenant of Islam. It is a false prospect to think an Islamic reformation will be moderating or peaceful.
No one knows where a reformation of Islam might lead. What we do know is there’s not much established nation states can do to dowse fires burning in men’s hearts. This will play out over decades or centuries and be bitterly contested.
That’s an interesting perspective but do we have centuries? Climate change will force civilization to change because the planet will become uninhabitable in most places and we don’t even know what that will actually look like.
Come now, Clare, you must know that Unherders believe that climate change is a hoax!
When were the hottest periods since the the end of the last Ice Age ?
I forget, because it’s so hard to comprehend that mind set.
Christianity did not return to its key tenants in the Reformation. If that were the case, it would have sought out its Eastern history. Instead it went further and further, splintering away from the first 1000 years even more.
The modern phase of the conflict has been going on since the early nineteenth century and the rise of Wahhabism, which led to a sharp increase in attacks on Jewish communities in the Maghreb and elsewhere, prompting growing numbers of Jews to emigrate to the Ottoman provinces now erroneously called ‘Palestine’.
However, there has never been a time when Jews have been able to live unmolested for very long in Arab societies. Even the much vaunted ‘tolerance’ of Andalucia was often broken by events such as the massacres of August 1013 in which more than 1000 Jews where murdered in a single night.
To have a grown-up debate about this topic we need to be aware of the entire history.
Exactly, but it seems that history is irrelevant at this point.
Not when Pro Palestinian demonstrators mention Khabar.
Liberal naivété. There is no justification for the Hamas attack. It was not political or religious, it was criminal. Palestine, whether from fear or inclination, harbours criminals. I don’t see Gaza identifying or handing over their criminals, nor do I see their left leaning supporters imploring them to do so. I don’t see the clerics of Islam amending the Quran to say it’s not OK to kill infidels. If they have then Hamas ignore them. The fact they should need reminding is condemnation enough. That the liberal left support it makes them accessories to murder. Convicted murderers don’t get to vote.
A good and thoughtful article which strangely omits mention of antisemitism. Hamas is oblivious to the plight of Palestinians. Its consuming passion is a hatred of Jews.
Exactly.
“The politically impotent and half-witted Bashar al- Assad”!
What world do you live in? De te fabula narratur! (It is yourself you are describing!)
Can anyone take such a commentator seriously?
No.
(Good to see you back ‘Father Quinlan’!)
Gratias tibi ago.
Iraq – civil war. Iran – funding proxy wars. Syria – civil war. Nigeria – insurgency. Chechnya – independence war. Gaza – terrorist sponsor. Libya – civil war. Yemen – civil war sponsored by Saudi Arabia. Pakistan – religious persecution. Qatar – funding terrorist groups. Azerbaijan – ethnic war with Armenia. Ethiopia – civil war. Niger – insurgency. Mali – insurgency.
These represent the majority of today’s potential or ongoing focuses of instability and war, excepting Ukraine and Taiwan.
What they all have in common is a resurgent political Islam, something not seen for several centuries. This resurgence is often heavily influenced by Wahabism, a philosophy spread from Saudi Arabia by the Kingdom exporting its problem clerics abroad to secure stability at home. What Wahabism promises is a return to the key tenants of Islam.
Christianity began a return to its key tenants 500 years ago. This became the Reformation. Mirroring this, we are now witnessing Islam’s own reformation. Yet Christianity and Islam are very different belief systems with very different tenants.
The Muslim prophet fought, conquered, subjugated and forced submission. That concept of submission – literally “islam” in Arabic – remains the key tenant of Islam. In contrast, Christianity’s lord is a very benign character.
The Christian Reformation is generally seen as a moderation of that religion, pathing the way for our tolerant, secular Western societies today. It is a false prospect to think Islam’s reformation will be moderating or peaceful. The convulsions are only just beginning and there’s not much the established nation states can do to dowse fires burning in men’s hearts.
And the operative word here is “men”. Islam, like all reigions, is misogynistic, but they have got to be the absolute worst.
It’s women who do all of the child rearing and seed the ideas of the next generation. The Western students out supporting Hamas and Palestine are overwhelmingly female. Given the opportunity to secretly vote for something else, Afghan women voted for hardliners. It’s hard to solely blame men for something largely propograted by and supported by many women.
Research has shown that women also voted more conservatively as they get older and create a family, which when you think of it makes sense. One does want ones’s family to survive and thrive. That said a large amount of women are not getting married today for a variety of reasons- so they want to keep their options open (supporting abortion) and feel good (virtue signaling) as they move forward alone into the future.
So Afghan women are responsible for creating their own fate?Well this beats the cake of misoginy.
Many women? How many. I don’t believe that most women freely voted for hardliners in Afghanistan.
Here in the United States we have many on the left celebrating Hamas butchery. Look at the pro-Hamas protests and rallies at major universities, such as Harvard. Look at the meek or non-committal responses from University Presidents who are apparently afraid of offending some oppressed group and I do not mean Jews in this case.
Thankfully we are seeing some pushback including rescinding of a job offer of a pro-Hamas student who glorified the murders and terrorism, and plans for donors to stop their donations to these schools.
How do you fight an enemy that values death, including death of its own people to advance its cause? Probably with death. That’s what they asked for.
Fuckingfuckingfucking… just an experiment… keep getting my posts censored, apparently the immediate asterisks aren’t enough… English, one of those weird and rare languages that has actual singularly taboo words… I like to think that’s why my carefully crafted posts keep getting taken down… but hey, what the f**k do I know? I’m Welsh and apparently on a steep learning curve because “dead bodies piled up in mounds” is less offensive than a written word…
Every
I’ve heard that H a ma as was actually nurtured by Israel as an alt to the PLO? Do any of us have the relevant expertise to dissect this corpse? Seems to me very timely that as all the NATO countries have been demilitarised by gifts to Ukriane that this was able to even happen. A friend of mine told me a few years ago that we live in a psychopathic society and a I laughed as I drank our martinis. Nothing more he said then could be more true.
Hamas was created by the Muslim Brotherhood who murdered Sadat in 1981 which is why Egypt does not want them in their country. Sadat was well on the way to creating a lasting peace with Israel. A peace treaty with Jordan would have created the security for rapid economic growth. The GCC countries would have supplied $Bs or investment.
Arafat then Hamas have scuppered all and every attempt at peace.
Historically Gaza has been part of Egypt, perhaps as far back as 4,000 years but now they are content for it to be a foreign country.
The Arab Israeli war is totally about religion. Islam and Judisim are very close in their theology. It all comes down to ownership of the temple mount and certification as the true faith mandated by God. It is far more important than land ownership. For the price of one jet fighter we could buy all the land in question and resettle the Palestinians in Africa.
Dos i chwarae efo dy nain… is THAT better you censorious cunts? f**k in Welsh… your language is very weird… I can’t believe you would accept people writing about accepting mass murder more than me writing an innocuous word… because freakishly it offends your sensibilities more. Whoever you are censoring this, you have some fucked up morality…
A brilliant and terrifying article.
For every effect there is a cause. The author, and apparently you, do not understand this basic dynamic. America and its European toadies have sucked the world dry via their empires and need for perpetual hegemony. There’s an old English statement to the effect that even the worm, when cut, will turn. Europe, America and Zionism are now the recipients of an accumulated fury they themselves have engendered. For every effect, however unpleasant, there is indeed a cause. What goes around comes around.
The most brutal empires of all history have been Muslim.
That is so simplistic.
The author makes a lot of depressingly good points, with two glaring exceptions: 1) Saudi Arabia has backed away from its proposed agreement with Israel, going so far as to be showing solidarity with Iran, its regional nemesis; and 2) the US and UN have been supporting Hamas, first through the UNRWA and just recently through Biden’s 6 billion dollar gift to Iran in exchange for hostages.
Rubbish.
No, facts. Look it up.
The deserts of Arabia and Africa only need water to become the bread basket of the world. With GMO crops that can be irrigatied with sea water which is plentiful. That can be done. Just add genes from sea grass or mangrove..we can then create a place to put the displaced Palestinian population. The attractive nuisance of the temple mount can be delt with by packing it with radioactive waste. If no one can have it a problem is solved. Alas this will not be done and the problem will only be solved when Christ returns and tells the Jews and Moslems who has rights to the temple. God made this mess and he w ill fix it. Look at he book of Ezikel to find out whet he plans to do.
“corpses of dead babies”
We discard ours as “medical waste”.
That is an ignorant and stupid comment.
No – it’s an accurate and thoughtful comment, though possibly not relevant to this particular discussion.
It’s not an accurate nor thoughtful comment.
The barbaric attack on innocent people, carried out by Hamas, is to be roundly condemned, and Israel has every right to hunt down the perpetrators and destroy them, or bring them to justice. However, the attack cannot be considered on its own without recourse to understanding how we got to this point. It was the West who created Israel from Palestine and it has been the Israelis who have failed to resolve the issue of Palestinian statehood. Ordinary, peaceful Palestinians have been ghettoised: kettled in Gaza and the West Bank, and suffocated by a neighbour who controls their borders, water and power, while at the same time dehumanising them, exploiting them as a source of cheap labour. When moderate voices in the West avoid confronting Israel about the plight of the Palestinians, others, with malintentions and a violent, anti-Western agenda, step in and exploit the situation.
Exactly. But I would add that Palestinian leaders haven’t done anything to help the populace, either. Hamas is obviously self-serving.
All war is bad and is a waste of human life and potential.
I have to disagree with you Elvis. To say war destroys lives is a truism. To say all war is bad is however not true. Unless free people had been prepared to wage war against Nazi tyranny and Japanese Imperialism in WW2 the consequences for mankind would have been very bad. Not to be prepared to fight to defend your freedom invites tyranny and serfdom. Pacifist tropes such as “ all war is bad” also insensitively denies the huge and valiant sacrifice which ordinary people have made to defend freedom and a better way of living.
I’m making a very general point here, Malcomb.
When I mean war, I mean it in the complete sense. Or we can simply call it “conflict” as well. It is the precursor to the examples you mention. How did the axis powers come about? Because of war. Why would people be pushed to have to defend their country? Because of war.
I would never deny the efforts people would make to defend themselves, and I wouldn’t say it’s a bad thing to do. Of course, defence is necessary if the alternative means destruction of yourself and your people. But what is the fundamental condition for such a thing to come about?
I look at things in what I feel is their complete sense and meaning; I would say it’s almost a Platonic position (perhaps it’s not suitable for this kind of forum. This is what I’m now sensing.)
War and conflict come about from the choices of individuals or groups of individuals. Since to wage, or engage in, or escalate conflict or war is a choice, this means there are other choices that can be explored. I think it’s quite slavish and cynical to assume conflict is the default way of things.
So my question is; what are the choices out there for the leaders of countries regarding the escalating conflicts in the Middle East? And with Russia and Ukraine? Do you not fear of escalating conflicts that can truly disrupt the order of things and bring worldwide havok? Many people do have this fear. Will there not have to be a point when peace and diplomacy will be needed?
Thank you for your reasonable and thoughtful engagement.
Wow, who’d’ve thunk it !
Yes, a very obvious and banal statement is it not, Bernard? And yet here we are, in a world with now even more increasing conflict, death and destitution.
It’s almost as if people in the world choose what is bad and destructive rather than what is diplomatic, sensible and restorative.
Makes you think, doesn’t it.
Yes, Germany and Japan are now great civilised places after some sensible and restorative measures were unfortunately required.
Makes you think, doesn’t it?
Germany and Japan were both advanced countries before they were nuked by the USA. In the case of Germany more advanced than the USA itself.
We are off the point again now. We are engaged in murdering children and murdering and raping women, killing other men and women, again for the same old reasons (power, misapplied religious faith, racial hatred, ownership of land etc) somewhere in the world all the time.
Are there never any adults in our societies?
I was merely countering Gordon’s claim that firebombing Germany and nuking Japan are what made them advanced countries, as though the US did them a favour.
The murder was done by adults. Some ideologies are murderous. Nobel Prize winners have supported murderous regimes such as Sartre for Maoist China.
Germany was the most educated nation in the World ithe 1930s.
Some societies have a cruel blood lust, other do not; why? The Cosa Nostra is a product of Sicily, why not Florence ?The German Swiss did not undertake mass murder yet a few miles over the border in Germany, German speakers did: why?
History, or at least the perception of.
There can be, if the young are allowed to grow up in knowledge of the world’s immutable imperfections.
Germany was NOT “nuked” by the USA.
For God’s sake Bocho do catch up, otherwise you are an embarrassment to the subcontinent, as I am sure SGJ would agree.
I immediately corrected myself in the second post, which i’m sure you saw. Your persistent pedantry leads you to miss the entire point with painful regularity.
A poster was arguing that the destruction of Germany and Japan by the US and allies led them to become advanced societies. I pointed out they were advanced societies long before then.
You should have deleted/edited it.
Yes, you are right. I should have corrected the actual post instead of posting a separate correction.
??
Rather absorbed by ” playing fields” at present!
Indeed….some disappointing results!
Good for us yesterday but quite a Khyber boom today to maul England!!
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make, sorry.
What is this ‘civilised’ of which you speak?! Ooooh, people like you, you mean? Lol lol lol Yep, it does make one think, doesn’t it? Lol “Sensible”? “Restorative measures”??! Now isn’t that a lovely euphemism for… Go on, describe to me IN DETAIL what that entailed… I bet the people left behind are eternally grateful for what their relatives endured because hey, now you think their homeland is just dandy…✌❣️
During an infestation it is sensible to kill all the pests and destroy their breeding grounds: restorative to rebuild an environment where they can never return.
Go on, call them , “cockroaches”, I very f*****g dare you… hmmm, now, let me think, where have I heard that kinda dehumanising language before? I seem to remember it was something to do with a ‘final solution’ or some such shit… hmmm, I’m sure it’s there, right on the edges of my brain… can anyone help me out?
I guess you’re not big on eco systems… I shall tell you a tale about someone else who thought like you, some bloke called Mao.
So, let me begin.
Once upon a time, a man called Mao was told that sparrows were eating tons of planted seed that never got the chance to grow into crops, so if they could just stop the pests eating the grain, there would be more food for the people. So the people across the land came out of their homes, day after day, banging pots and pans and the whole land was alive with sound so the sparrows were too frightened to land and eat grains until eventually they fell from the skies in their millions, dead from exhaustion. Success! Now EVERY seed could germinate and successfully grow into food. Unfortunately, the sparrows also ate all sorts of insects that also liked to eat grain, but which nobody had really paid any attention to before… until the sparrows, their natural predators, were removed and they were able to replicate in plague proportions. Unfortunately, this led to the worst famine the country had EVER experienced…
Some people just never learn from history… I’m sure there’s an adage about that – ignorance/history/doom or some such shit…
One world, one love, no borders (metaphorical or otherwise) ✌❣️
How wrong can you be: where I heard that metaphor before was from a hamas supporter.
Stalin wanted a 100,000 Nazis executed, at least ; Britain and the USA persuaded him to allow the Nuremburg Trials. After WW1 and WW2, many wanted Germany reduced to a large farm.
…or maybe it’s the world which chooses it for people Elvis, when they forget the nature of the world. Compassion before justice has a well formed habit of fomenting chaos.
Not a single bad thing in all the history of mankind has ever come from true compassion, Bernard. It is a fundamental human virtue.
I totally agree Elvis. “Love they neighbour as thy self” is a human virtue which manifests interpersonally, and locally. I can personally care for the tree before me, but my personal virtue can’t act on the whole forest. At scale, what is a personal virtue, atrophies into empty ideological groupthink. And what might be virtuous towards my tree, may be disastrous for the forest overall.
“The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” Nothing is more destructive than humanity’s blind confidence in its own good faith, and its complete inability to distinguish “true compassion” (whatever that may be) from self-interest masquerading as compassion. It’s the people who claim to be helping that do the most harm – and it’s why Madison political structures work so well, and why the profit motive raises the poor out of poverty much faster than the muddle-headed philanthropy of the self-righteous.
You’re talking about ideological (and perhaps theological) structures, Kirk. That’s just things of the mind. Things that rest on weak foundations (which I suppose you’re pointing out and I’d say you’re right to do so)
But I’m talking about compassion, something of the heart, something that stirs within people. Some people nurture it, most neglect it.
This is my final comment on UnHerd as my thoughts and feelings are not suited here. That’s been made evident.
All the best.
Your thoughts and feelings were unheard and since you posted they have been heard: not only that, you prompted a useful exchange of ideas.
Not suited here? … how did you conclude that? … upticks downticks? … IGNORE and keep contributing.
That’s very compassionate of you Gordon.
There seem to be a bunch of new subscribers, who are not used to having their internal narratives questioned. Elvis seems like a nice bloke. He should stay on, as you say.
What a shame I hope you don’t leave. I liked your comments about compassion & feel similarly
Agreed, we have been horrified by the Hamas attack.
But what is going on right now ? Brutal retaliation on Gaza, with hundreds of civilians killed, thousands of homes erased, a complete blockade for 2.3 Mio inhabitants – with very soon the wounded not being treated in hospitals that lack electricity, starvation for the remaining, even the displaced crowd…
In order to allow Israel to defend itself, the west powers are burying their face in the sand about those multiplied horrors, which are definitely war crimes, that no moral stance can justify. A cease fire with negotiation is an absolute necessity.
Yes – war is not pretty…
‘But’. Always ‘but’.
I was always told: “everything before the ‘but’ is horse sh*t”
There have been a lot of “buts” in the last week.
What are your thoughts on hundreds of Palestinian civilians being killed, Ben?
I do ask of you to be forthcoming in your answer, if you please.
More than 2000 Palestinians killed now.
Do you really think anyone actually wants that, Elvis?
The ‘but’ here means that the original commenter is being consistent in their position. They recognise that the attacks that Hamas inflicted on Israel was a horrific thing. But they are also pointing out it is not right to blithely ignore or downplay the horrors that are now being inflicted on Palestine.
So we can infer that original commenter is anti-violence in the complete sense, and are making an argument that is consistent with that.
Does that not sound reasonable to you?
What we can infer is that 99% of people who are “anti violence” are not themselves suffering the violence. If they were, they would have a very different response.
Again the headline doesn’t quite match the contents – I’m a new subscriber here & I’m finding myself concerned that I’ve accidentally come to the Daily Telegraph to be honest – certainly this piece wouldn’t be out of place there.
I don’t think Hamas have reinvented horror this week – rather they’ve just distilled it. They’ve essentially taken the images and horrors that might have taken a year or two to materialise in an interested observers various time-lines and presented them in 48 hours. This isn’t a new definition – it’s a compilation, a greatest-hits of horror – and our media has lapped it up (how could they not). Now it’s Israel’s turn to do precisely the same.
As for Russia’s own atrocities in Ukraine – I fear we’re about to see what a bunch of rank amateurs they are compared to the Israelis – certainly in terms of the ratio of civilians to combatant deaths.
Unherd has been centre right from its inception.
…”sanity adjacent” might be apt?
This is what attracted us to it, but it seems to be heading towards Daily Telegraph style looney right.
Who pray is “us”?
Me and a few of the posters on this thread. Why are you following me around on this website?
Exactly! Don’t you hate that “us” thing, or the “we” thing. Speak for yourself I say.
I was referring to Elvis Quinn, AD Kent and Davina Powell who have expressed these sentiments themselves on this very thread.
I generally assume people read the posts on a thread before they start commenting on it.
I’m a new subscriber here too, and my feelings are similar. I’d read some thoughtful articles in the past and so chose to subscribe for more content, but it now just seems to me to be another war-mongering rag just like the rest.
I think you may find the comments to be more diverse than some of the articles( despite the up or down- ticks).
Why do you feel what you state?
Simply a one-sided bias to a very destructive conflict, in which many civilians, both Palestinian and Israeli, have lost their lives and will continue to do so.
Agree with the latter part of your statement. However the despicable brutality of the Hamas attack against innocent civilians does make it a difficult proposition to establish moral equivalence in the context of the last 7 days.
I’ve no interest in “moral equivalence”.
All war is a waste of human life and potential.
God wills that each one of us individuals in this world be a peace-keeper.
Unfortunately world politics doesn’t run that way. It’s more Hobbesian and nasty.
I can see where you are coming from though.
And I too have had issues with some of UH analysts for lack of nuance and an ability to grasp complexities.
The persons “lacking nuance” are the head-in-the-sand types who just can’t understand why we can’t all get along.
What’s terrible is that now a country defending its citizens from rape and murder is considered “right wing.”
That is a lot to do with the Overton Window having shifted extreme Left, and the identification of certain sections as being ” victims” only. Ignoring factual history.
I doubt that you’re going to find that in Elvis.
I did reply to your comment on reading history by the way on another thread.
Oh dear.
I was shocked by an article that is pure imperialist propaganda. And even worse, by the comments in support of this dim witted travesty of distortion and ignorance of historical causes for current events. Interestingly, the author says somewhere that poor Bin Laden thought that he would accomplish something with 911. Sad to inform him that Bin Laden did accomplish something: in provoking America to create and then pursue the WAR ON TERROR, he has sealed its fate. America is dying as we speak, and as an American who has been appalled by our behavior for a long time now, I must say I see an opportunity for some schadenfreude here.
Well said sir!
Not a popular viewpoint but probably correct.
Subscribe to Quillete instead. The articles are better, and the more intellectual nature of the site seems to deter trolls and nutcases.
Isn’t it an Antipodean publication?
Very PC too. ” The Economist” on a gargantuan scale for quite some time. Nice to see that both publications have the same cheerleader on UH!
Cancelled my subscription a while ago thus..
Thanks for the ‘warning’.
Then why are you here?
Yep, what you said… Anyway I’ve tried this out for a month and have cancelled my subscription and think it’s gonna run out at any mome
Oh don’t go you’re funny! We need humor.
Unherd is clearly an echo chamber of one-sidedness – in which the West is moral and its ‘enemies’ immoral. Anyone who follows what has happened since the Balfour declaration onwards knows that this conflict is about land. Hamas, arguably not a state actor, committed crimes against civilians but these crimes are about to be surpassed in magnitude by war crimes by Israel (and backed by US and UK) and this will increases the sense of injustice amongst arab people. Israel is never held accountable by the so-called ‘international community’ and arguably it is this failure to hold Israel accountable that has led to this current conflict. It is ludicrous to claim Hamas attrocities are uniquely inhumane whilst condoning starving the civilian population of Palestine of aid, medicine, water, fuel, food and forcing the internal movement of 1 million people in one day whilst bombing them as they move. On display is a a one-sided moral outrage that condones the state violence of Israel.
I don’t see anyone here “condoning starving the civilian population of Palestine of aid etc”. What did Hamas think would happen after they did what they did. They either didn’t think it through or they did, and now they’ve got exactly what they wanted, so people like you can say that Israel is the bad guy. The perpetrator becomes the victim. That’s what psychopaths do, it’s very clever. What has Hamas done to improve the lives of the average Palestinian? Yassar Arafat died with many millions of dollars stashed away.
No one on ‘your side’ ever has any explanation about what Israel is supposed to do when a terrorist fires a rocket from a Palestinian school building into Israeli civilian communities.
If you say that Israel should not destroy that rocket launcher, you are simply saying that you value Palestinian children above Israeli children. Personally I find that immoral and reprehensibly racist.
Please provide a detailed military response Israel should follow in order to prevent future attacks.
Yep… people and their ‘moral authority’… kinda makes you wanna puke and cry and puke and cry and… doesn’t it? Sometimes hypocrisy knows no bounds…
Perhaps people should think on this… “but the childrens!!!” Every 3 seconds, 24/7 , somewhere on this bounteous earth a mother watches her baby starve to death at her empty breast… so in the time it took to write the above article that’s how many dead babies, exactly, I wonder? Oh, but the optics aren’t quite the same because…? Yeah, because if you wanna know who’s responsible for that shit people MAY have to look in the mirror…
One world, one love, no borders ✌❣️
“May have to look in the mirror?” Are you looking in yours?!!
Lol… No need to get defensive from the off… oh, unless…
…the problem with all the competing narratives of who owns the land, including your one, is the starting point in time. Jewish occupation is a couple of millennia older than the Balfour declaration, and the Ottoman conquest of the region.
At the time of the British occupation of Palestine 96% of its population was Palestinian Christian and Muslim. 4% was Palestinian Jewish. 0% was Eastern European Ashkenazi Jewish.
There’s been quite a big change in Palestine’s demographics since then.
Something about the Ukraine LOL
There’s no such place as the Ukraine, it’s been called Ukraine for over three decades