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Lord Plasma
Lord Plasma
6 months ago

This is the hardest post I have ever had to write. My son, who is 13, has succumbed to rapid onset gender dysphoria. Like me, he has Aspergers, unlike me he is part of a labyrinthine online world, dominated by US-influenced gender-affirmative adults, and “TransTokers” who have presented a fairytale vision of gender realignment. My son is a masculine looking child whose friends are all male, who has a masculine outlook, and a masculine sense of humour (obviously “masculine” is subjective, but as a shorthand, useful). Never once as a younger child had he said “I’m a girl.” He is neurodiverse of course, very bright, but an outlier. The trans dogma, the trans evangelism, has, in my opinion, presented itself as the most aggressively vocal route towards fitting in. I have explained my point of view to him, that in my opinion you cannot “change” sex, and you cannot “feel female” as you have no concept of what feeling female is like, because you’re not female, qed. But I love him very much, and want him to be happy. At the moment I believe transitioning, with its attendant medical interventions, social pitfalls, romantic hardships and discord with reality, offers no guarantee of easing his difficulty, and in many, many ways would make his life much harder. If he could recognise that it is his autism, his “unusualness”, coupled with the onset of puberty, that is the root cause of his discomfort, then I believe he would recognise his dysphoria as a delusion. He also has real issues with proprioception which I think has led to a disconnect with his body. But, in the hope that he will recognise his folly, we have agreed that he can grow his hair and buy some female clothes. At the moment my wife wakes in the night crying, devastated at the potential loss of the son she has raised so lovingly; my younger son cries and says “I don’t want to lose my brother,” I have cried for the first time in a long time. What the trans dogmatists fail to understand is the cruel impact their quick fix ideology has on impressionable, vulnerable, confused young people and on their families. It is an encouraged destruction of identity, and, as a gruesome climax, a clamour for mutilation.
Kathleen, if you happen to read my comment, it would be extremely helpful for me to talk to you. I have huge admiration for the work you have done, so thank you.

Last edited 6 months ago by Lord Plasma
0 0
0 0
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

I am very sorry to hear this. It must be incredibly hard but you are not alone (far from it – there are so many in your situation, and the stigma around talking about it in anything other than glowing terms makes it even harder to bear). There is help out there for parents in your situation – this book is very good https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Kids-Say-Theyre-Trans-ebook/dp/B0C5Q276C2; as are these guides https://sex-matters.org/posts/schools-and-safeguarding/practical-ideas-for-parents-of-gender-questioning-teenagers/. And the Bayswater Support Group is there for parents too https://www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/
(this is Kathleen, btw – never commented before and for some reason the system has given me a different name!).

Last edited 6 months ago by 0 0
m_dunec
m_dunec
6 months ago
Reply to  0 0

Kathleen, i just have to say i admire and appreciate you, greatly.

Depressing and dire as it all is, women and men like you, give such hope and inspiration to so many. You remind us that we are not alone in the mire, and there maybe possibly could be, a way out!
Thank you.

Last edited 6 months ago by m_dunec
Lord Plasma
Lord Plasma
6 months ago
Reply to  0 0

Thank you Kathleen. We will follow these links. Please keep up your work. It’s been a huge help to us.

Andrew Soltau
Andrew Soltau
6 months ago
Reply to  0 0

Dear Kathleen. Totally in awe of you and your sanity in this crazy business, not to mention the calm with which you seem to deal with it all. Many blessings.

0 0
0 0
6 months ago
Reply to  0 0

And check out Miriam Grossmans website she has lots of resources and helpful advice
https://www.miriamgrossmanmd.com/

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
4 months ago
Reply to  0 0

I wonder whether we might utilize the fact that autistic kids are disproportionately represented among gender-questioning kids and more thoroughly involve the autism community in fighting this.
To that end, I have sent some links from Unherd to a few autism organizations.
I also wonder whether there is some autistic thinking behind some of the the transactivism to support the gender-affirming type of care.

Tony
Tony
28 days ago
Reply to  0 0

I have a grandson who started wearing dresses from about age five. The reason could have been that he was the only boy in some kind of after school club where the girls used their time in dressing up in various dresses, He felt left out and started wearing dresses there too and also at home. Unbelievably his mother just laughed at it and his dad was silent on the matter. I eventually had a talk with him mentioning that God had made him a boy and not a girl. I think I got through, Now at 11 years old he has never worn another dress since that talk and seems very well adjusted now.

carl taylor
carl taylor
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

You might want to reach out to Genspect. https://genspect.org/

Lord Plasma
Lord Plasma
6 months ago
Reply to  carl taylor

Thanks vm Carl. My wife has done so, they’ve been very helpful and rational.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

No, they have been affirmative of your biases born of ignorance — and to go by your statements here, it is deliberate ignorance. There is no such thing as ROGD. The only category of evidence which has ever purported that it is real is fraudulently produced by asking parents who are already biased to believe that it does exist, “do they believe it does?” — not infrequently ignoring the same parents who say that they “saw no signs” are parents who speak of disciplining their children for gender non-conformity in years prior almost in the same breathe.
One goes to Genspect because you prefer a dead or miserable child over one happy in a way you do not like.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

By insultingly pretending you know that only people with a preference for a dead or miserable but socially conforming child would go to Genspect you undermine any value you could bring to the discussion.

Even if every child who claims he is in the wrong body would benefit from “gender affirming care” were true you can have no evidence to support your assertion regarding the motives of Lord Plasma and other parents that are contacting Genspect.

Most parents who are not swept along by trans propaganda have only the happiness of their child at heart in seeking alternative advices when faced with their child being hurried down a path of irreversible transition that they may come to regret by fanatics who attribute malevolent motives to people who do not conform to their way of thinking. Of course there may be a few bigots who think as you suggest but to suggest these are the only people that go to Genspect betrays your own bigotry.

Last edited 6 months ago by Jeremy Bray
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

“By insultingly pretending … to the discussion.” <– Other than that being justified perfectly well by known facts, sure. You don’t have any real and relevant facts.
“Even if every child who claims he is in the wrong body would benefit from “gender affirming care” were true” <– Which is a strawman argument, since I have suggested no such thing — it’s only more of you making up whaterver you feel like. It’s because you have no real argument.
“you can have no evidence to support your assertion regarding the motives of Lord Plasma and other parents that contacting Genspect.” <– I read what they wrote and I know what Genspect is about. It is not honesty, it is for their ideology and nothing else.
“Most parents who are not swept along by trans propaganda” <– there is no such thing, only facts biology and it’s real range of variance which can not for reasons of emotion immaturity, deal with other than by abusing some children, among other people. You are not different at all compared to those who insisted “science” jusitified racist laws.
“have only the happiness of their child at heart in seeking alternative advices” <– The same as those advocating a period of consuming only fruit juices as a cure for cancer, sure. At least idiots like Steve Jobs only tortuously killed themselves.
“when faced with their child being hurried” <– Another strawman argument, there is no such hurrying.
“down a path of irreversible transition” <– Any pubertal changes are equally irreversible and between transgender children forced to undergo the puberty of their birth sex, and cisgender children transitioning medically in error — equally tragic. That you think that is not true is objective evidence of your mindless bigotry — you think transgender children aren’t worth as much as cisgender children. That you think the latter outnumber the former evidence of your deliberate ignorance.
“by fanatics who attribute malevolent motives to people who do not conform to their way of thinking.” <– If any fanaticism is seen in such a broad majority, it would be the first time. Fewer than 1 in 800 doctors in the US, for example, oppose gender affirming care. If you were to say it was complacency you might have a point — of curse, you would ave to have facts backing up your opinions, and you do not.
You are in the relative position of lay people insisting to physicists that Phlogiston really does explain fire, and the the Earth really is flat. Genspect is the equivalent of a pro-Flat Earth website.
“Of course there may be a few bigots who think as you suggest but to suggest these are the only people that go to Genspect betrays your own bigotry.” <– You are exactly such a bigot.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
tintin lechien
tintin lechien
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

is he gay? Talking to gay people would help too. We had so much stress and anxiety growing up in a straight society and we all bought we were the only one. Until we meet other gays. Just saying… Bon courage.

Lord Plasma
Lord Plasma
6 months ago
Reply to  tintin lechien

He says he thinks he is bisexual. But I’m not sure he really knows. I hope that is what has caused his confusion, it would be a big relief.

Addie Shog
Addie Shog
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

Your son is not trans. “rapid onset gender dysphoria” does not exist. He is being groomed online, I’m afraid.
I wish you all the best of luck.

Lord Plasma
Lord Plasma
6 months ago
Reply to  Addie Shog

Thank you Addie

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
6 months ago
Reply to  Addie Shog

…”if we can take away that worry about your body doing something that you don’t want it to“
Is there anything more ludicrous? I don’t want my middle aged body to build fat around my midriff!

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

Your post is truly heartbreaking. May I suggest that you give him articles about young adults who have detransitioned? Their stories of regret and incalculable loss may help change his mind.
Another thing that comes to mind is how the current form of the term ‘gender’ was coined by Dr. John Money, a scientist who performed disturbing sexual experiments on children, at least two of whom ended up committing suicide. The adults pushing sexual reassignment surgery on children are engaging in the same sick behavior and I hope that one day they are all held accountable for the lives that they have ruined.
Lastly, in a fantasy trilogy by the author Philip Pullman, His Dark Materials, a mysterious group of men and women kidnap children in order to sever them from their souls. The children end up lost, sad, pale shadows of their former selves. By severing children from normal healthy sexual development, the adults involved in transgenderism are doing almost the exact same thing.

Nuria Quitt
Nuria Quitt
6 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

“The Detrans Perspective – A Conversation With A Survivor (James Esses & Ritchie Herron)” by the LGB Alliance is an excellent talk (YouTube) on this subject.
Your example of the soul-snatchers in Pullman’s trilogy (I can’t recall what he calls them) is apt. Dark times indeed.

Fiona English
Fiona English
6 months ago
Reply to  Nuria Quitt

Though sadly, Pullman has joined the ranks of trans ideology celebratory celebs.

Last edited 6 months ago by Fiona English
Nuria Quitt
Nuria Quitt
6 months ago
Reply to  Fiona English

Oh no! I do wonder what makes some people, more than others, susceptible to this social contagion.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Nuria Quitt

As opposed to other contagions?

S Wilkinson
S Wilkinson
6 months ago
Reply to  Nuria Quitt

I suspect he has, like quite a lot of older ‘lefties’ I know, fallen for the Stonewall line that it’s just like the fight for gay rights back when they were younger.
Even if they subsequently realise their error we all know what happens to the heretics and doubly so to the apostates (look at how the detransitioners are treated).

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  S Wilkinson

I think you are probably right. But I’m curious: why do you think it is different to the fight for gay rights? I see lots of parallels. Honest question.

Glyn R
Glyn R
6 months ago
Reply to  Nuria Quitt

I would guess it is because they are terrified of being cancelled and excommunicated.

Lori Regenstreif
Lori Regenstreif
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

You are somewhat fortunate that there are supports and resources now that may help guide you and protect your son from “capture” by this social movement. Strongly advise you to reach out to Genspect and join a parent group and listen to or watch the Gender A Wider Lens podcasts. There is still hope for the younger kids like yours with ROGD, especially in the UK. I promise you, you may be able to guide him through unharmed. Parents of older children now, and in North America in particular, are not so lucky.

Reach out!

Last edited 6 months ago by Lori Regenstreif
Ida March
Ida March
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

Transition regret is a growing phenomenon. It might be worth showing some of the testimonies to your son.
Just google ‘transition regret’, or type it into YouTube and there are plenty of quite heart breaking examples of young people who went down the road of ‘gender affirming care’ and now deeply regret it.
They all report being enticed by online Trans forums, as well as showing symptoms of various syndromes including autism, eating disorders, trauma, depression, anxiety etc. All were told that gender dysphoria was the problem and that gender affirming care was the solution.
Failing that, is there any way you could persuade him to wait until he is an adult before making a decision?
Several of those with transition regret also say they they wished the adults had refused to affirm them and had left them to go through what they now realise was just a phase.

Mike Downing
Mike Downing
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

Hi there. I saw a YT video of an average black woman talking about ROGD in her daughter from California where she was at risk of having the child taken off her by the authorities. She literally had to run off in the night and hole up with a friend in secret.

She described the online trans ‘community ‘ as a cult. She had to strictly limit her child’s online time after taking her somewhere with no reception. She likened it to putting her through AA detox. All shocking but…..

She managed to completely turn it around in a few months and now her daughter is back to her old disruptive, argumentative, arsey teenage self (lol) so there is hope but it’s a long hard road, I’m afraid.

Good luck.

PS These trans-tokers are like witches and should be burned at the stake.

Glyn R
Glyn R
6 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

Was with you until I read your p.s.

John Scott
John Scott
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

To Lord Plasma,
This is truly a sad story of your son. But, I must say, where are you as a parent? You and your wife know that what is happening to your son is wrong. Why aren’t you doing what parents should do and protect your son by stop affirming his brainwashing?

J Bryant
J Bryant
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

You’ve already received many useful suggestions from other commenters regarding resources that might help you deal with this situation. I would also suggest an episode of the podcast Triggernometry where a female, autistic Triggernometry employee describes how she thought she was trans but eventually figured out her confusion arose from being autistic. The link is below. Best of luck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pntLxZjsAM

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
4 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

That was a brilliant suggestion. I watched it and was very moved. (though I would warn that she gets a little bit preachy about going back to Christianity as a solution, albeit in a very charming way.)
Here’s another interesting video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6MWY6wnpxk
A psychiatrist explains a meta-analysis of the link between ASD and gender dysphoria.
Among the comments:
I’m a straight cis male, and I’ve recently found out I’m autistic. What’s super interesting to me about this video is that I definitely had a “crisis of masculinity” when I was younger (17, 18, 19), in part because it felt like a lot of other neurotypical men heavily rejected parts of my personality that were considered “not masculine.” To this day, I often get people ask me if I’m gay, because it simply doesn’t make sense to me to “perform” certain aspects of masculinity (especially those that seem entirely for the benefit of other men, rather than women). It was actually quite a frustrating experience before I understood I was autistic.

I would not at all be surprised if other autistic people also feel like they don’t belong in their “assigned” gender because of similar feelings of being completely unable to relate to the socially constructed facets of gender and sexuality.

Lord Plasma
Lord Plasma
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

Thank you to all of you who have offered suggestions. It’s very kind and I hope we find a solution.

Dionne Finch
Dionne Finch
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

I think you should remove his access to all
Social media and take him away on a long holiday to somewhere where trans is not an issue. Get him out in the world adventuring and keep his mind busy with new people and activities.

H W
H W
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

Consider taking your son on a long trip somewhere where wifi does not work. Set things up so he must depend on you and you are the alpha presence, so he will re-attach to you. As it is, he is attached to on-line ideas and ‘heroes’. Please see https://macnamara.ca/ and neufeldinstitute.org/

George Tyrebyter
George Tyrebyter
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

look at pitt.substack.com for a lot of stories of parents like you. Some stories have good suggestions for handling your son.

DO NOT AFFIRM!!

Andrew Soltau
Andrew Soltau
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

I am neuroatypical, and ever since boarding school, and I believe because of it, I have been disconnected from my body. As I understand it one of the key features of us Aspies is intense focus on a particular interest or issue. So I imagine that once this bee got in his bonnet it has got a great deal of attention. And though I remember only vaguely the issues, I seem to remember that time and time again I got obsessed with some change I wanted, only to find out it did not achieve much or anything at all of what I had hoped and intended. So it seems to me all your fears are well founded. My suggestion in case you have not done it already, is to try to find some attention grabbing article, ideally perhaps scientific, that he might be obliquely encouraged / induced to analyse and study. That’s all I’ve got. Deepest sympathies. It sounds like absolute hell for the rest of the family. Good luck.

Glyn R
Glyn R
6 months ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

“The trans dogma, the trans evangelism, has, in my opinion, presented itself as the most aggressively vocal route towards fitting in.”
I am really grateful for this article by Kathleen Stock and for your testimony from the front line. The calculation and base wickedness of exploiting children’s insecurities – especially those such as your son who are autistic – that lies at the heart of this vile industry needs far more exposure.
My heart goes out to you and all your family and I hope and pray that you get the help and support you need.

Last edited 6 months ago by Glyn R
mike otter
mike otter
28 days ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

The saddest thing about this is when the same people stoked their pet manias & hates in the past their victims could buy into their lies for as long as it took to learn or grow out of them. Bar a few cases no permanent damage was done. How many per 1000 exhorted to drop acid or smoke weed by messrs Leary & co ended up with junk habits? less than 1:500 is my guess. Same with CPGB and far left Labour: Of those exposed to their posters and xeroxed ‘zines how many joined the Red Army Faction or the INLA, or even the ever popular Che Guevara? got to be < 1:10,000 at an absolute max and probably much lower given how tiny these “fairly secret armies” were. I know the numbers mutilated by the trans lobby are small, but they are increasing and unlike foolish or firebrand ideology you can’t grow out of removing your genitals and knackering your endocrine system!

June Davis
June Davis
28 days ago
Reply to  Lord Plasma

I have a granddaughter who is Asperger’s and feels like she should be male. I understand your heartbreak because it is also mine. This is the preschooler who we could not get out of her princess dress and pretty pink shoes. There was never any indication of a problem until her school encouraged her to look at her mental issues in a gender dysphoric manner.

J Bryant
J Bryant
6 months ago

A fine piece of investigative reporting. The trans madness won’t end, imo, until the culpable medical professionals are successfully sued for malpractice and appropriate, apolitical, standards for the diagnosis and care of trans people are implemented. Only the real prospect of hefty civil, and perhaps criminal, penalties will dissuade the ideologues. Perhaps Unherd might consider an article on avenues for legal recourse for children harmed by ideologically driven physicians.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
6 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Unfortunately the law may not provide a remedy in the sense that to establish a claim of medical malpractice or negligence the claimant has to show that the treatment they received was below the standard expected of a clinician of their field of expertise. If the predominant standard treatment involves affirmation and rapid progress to puberty blockers, hormones and surgical intervention it becomes difficult to prove that the treatment fell below the standard expected of a competent medical expert in this area. In other words medical ideologues may be able to establish a standard of care that is legally bulletproof simply by ensuring that their treatment is the standard treatment which seems to be the way that things seem to be progressing.

I recall that many of us anticipated the probable outcome following the interim Cass review and the suggestion that the Tavistock Clinic was to be closed and be replaced by regional clinics. It always seemed probable that, as Richard Craven has observed, the cancer of this ideologically driven treatment will simply have metastasised and spread to the regions and into private clinics.

A thoroughly depressing prospect for the parents of confused young children in fact requiring proper psychological treatment rather than a pathway to chemical castration and mutilation.

Last edited 6 months ago by Jeremy Bray
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
6 months ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

Thanks for the mention, although – as I’m sure you’ll appreciate – I wish it wasn’t necessary!

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
6 months ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

I do not think it would be difficult at all to mount a civil claim. All someone has to say is that they were not properly advised and were pressured to go along with a medical intervention that harmed them. You were aware that I was mentally unstable

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

And before you claim there is a problem with gender affirming care, you need to be able to show it can be substantially bettered — or even bettered at all. It has been in use for decades, it is the mindless Social Conservative moral panic about it which is new. And instead, gender affirming care has a 99%+ accuracy rate in predicting whom will benefit from gender affirming surgery contrary to birth sex (as opposed to gender affirming surgery consistent with birth sex, such as breast augmentation or gynecomastia removal).
You have no factual excuse to presume youth treated with medical transition per gender affirming care are confused.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
6 months ago

A huge amount of credit must be granted to Kathleen Stock for this thorough review of the existing state of these services, alongside Unherd for its part in commissioning and publishing this review.
It’s been said before, but when she lost her tenure at the University of Sussex, we gained someone with sufficient intellect, insight and sensitivity to provide searching analyses of many of our current cultural and now medical issues. On this latter point, the world of medicine is notoriously difficult for anyone not medically qualified to gain traction within; the nature of specialist services requires considerable study to gain even enough insight to be able to write about and discuss the critical issues authoritatively. I feel that KS has achieved this, though speaking as a former long-term NHS employee, i’d expect she should be prepared for the usual arrogant pushback by medical professionals who might disagree with her findings.
It’s noteworthy that no conclusions as such have been reached, but this review should require those charged with the provision of revised services to be more accountable. One of the key failures within this process following the as yet incomplete closure of the Tavistock Clinic seems to be the lack of expertise and accountability of those managers charged with recruitment for the new clinical hubs, something that doesn’t surprise me but is actually hugely problematic and worth challenging at the highest level of the NHS and government as to why this remains the case.
I look forward to hearing from KS again, as the service redevelopment moves on – I hesitate to use the term “progresses”.

Last edited 6 months ago by Steve Murray
Mike Downing
Mike Downing
6 months ago

Brilliant article from Kathleen Stock as usual, but thoroughly depressing. No surprise though; it’s like trying to get rid of knotweed.

And the number of private services all waiting to make a killing from these confused kids.

We need a British Matt Walsh to hold rallies outside these places and get them to close down.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
6 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

“it’s like trying to get rid of knotweed”
… or a metastasized cancer.

Lindsay S
Lindsay S
6 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

Part of me thinks, take it off the NHS and let them all go private! If parents want to pay to have their kids chemically castrated, that’s on them.
The lunatics are truly running the asylum!

Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
6 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

Matt Walsh is accurate in his analysis and condemnation of transactivism, but his stance is also much too politicised as a very rightwing commentator. This does not help in an issue which should transcend politics but is too.often used and abused to political ends.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
6 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

With knotweed, if you try to pull it up at the roots, it always leaves a bit behind that will eventually grow to be as invasive as the original. The only answer is powerful herbicides that go right down and kill the roots. Maybe we need to find an ideological equivalent…

Caroline Watson
Caroline Watson
6 months ago

Don’t forget that this is all being funded by our taxes. The whole ‘gender’ nonsense should be removed from the NHS. Selling drugs and procedures to mutilate children should be made illegal and, for adults, particularly those under 30, subject to very strict regulation.

Lindsay S
Lindsay S
6 months ago

As it is, we, the taxpayer, funding this nonsense, the NHS is then liable for class action suits, which the taxpayer foots the bill, and then the NHS is relied upon to treat the resulting mess, again funded by the taxpayer.

Graeme Crosby
Graeme Crosby
6 months ago

It’s now blindingly clear why GIDS became so overtaken by ideology; Polly Carmichael is a bloke.

Susie Bell
Susie Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Graeme Crosby

Just what occurred to me when I saw the photo!

Daryl Hughes
Daryl Hughes
6 months ago
Reply to  Graeme Crosby

I wondered this too, but I can’t find a source to verify.

Graeme Crosby
Graeme Crosby
6 months ago
Reply to  Daryl Hughes

Dead naming blah blah. I’m sure you won’t find any way to confirm online but look at his Adam’s apple!

nigel taylor
nigel taylor
6 months ago
Reply to  Graeme Crosby

Me too ; it beggars belief that such a person is allowed within a mile of children.

Chris J
Chris J
6 months ago
Reply to  Graeme Crosby

It might be simple to say that Polly Carmichael is trans but I don’t think so.
There are many pictures of Polly Carmichael on-line and no evidence of an adams apple just the normal aging of the neck.
When speaking the voice is decidedly female and so are mannerisms which,even in the most passing trans person are usually a giveaway, such as constant hair touching or head tilting.
Obviously, it is possible to shave the adams apple and have voice training but on balance it seems more likely that Polly Carmichael is just a women who has been captured by the trans ideology as have so many, often because there is a trans person somewhere in their family, unlike many male supporters who simply display pure hatred of women.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris J

Passing trans women have feminine mannerisms and voice.
Polly has facial melasma in early photos, which is a common side effect of oestrogen in men.
In the WPATH video on YouTube she strokes her face with her nails several times which is typical of trans women.

Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
6 months ago
Reply to  Graeme Crosby

Try looking on YouTube for Dr Polly Carmichael as a speaker at the 2016 WPATH conference. Her voice is pretty clearly that of a woman.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
6 months ago

I can remember, at the time of the interim Cass review and the subsequent Tavistock closure/regional hubs announcement, that Pink News was bullish and much derided for spinning it positively. Sadly, it looks like they were correct.
Despite Cass, and despite successful case after case in employment areas, the gender ideology juggernaut rolls on and will gather speed again under a Labour government. Children will continue to be harmed.
Thank you, Kathleen, for this excellent but very depressing, report.

Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Labour is slowly changing its mind about the gender ideology cult. First (after the SNP’s various embarassments on this issue) it announced that there would be no gender self-ID under a Labour government: even though its reduced requirement from two medical opinions to one, leaves this open to abuse from online outfits like Dr Helen Webberly’s “GenderGP”.

Then Starmer conceded that “women” are “adult females” — though he left out “human”: still a major advance on “some women have penises”.

And take a look on YouTube at a Labour Women’s Declaration fringe meeting at the Labour Conference, just held. Jess Phillips MP attacks our current legalised rape culture as one of the worst offences against women’s rights to be safe from predatory men. No gender nonsense here.

T M Murray
T M Murray
6 months ago

I have “lived experience” of gender dysphoria. Clinical psychologists start from the premise that affirmative care entails an accepting stance that says gender diversity isn’t a disorder but has existed across cultures through history. They aim to validate the testimonials coming from gender distressed children, like I once was.
However, what follows is at odds with this rhetoric. If they truly accepted the gender dysphoric child, then the logical response would be to de-bunk gender (as queers and feminists did in the pre-Trans era). Gender should not be a heteronormative straight jacket into which we all must fit. Unlike biological sex – which is real – gender is just a set of social conventions. Instead of embracing social non-conformity (the actual cause of the child’s distress), affirmative care clinicians pathologise the child because he/she does not conform. In the past, the ‘solution’ was not to change non-conformists, it was to tackle the social conventions that reinforced rigid stereotypes. Affirmative care is as regressive as lightening a black person’s skin to make them ‘less distressed’ in a racist society.

Last edited 6 months ago by T M Murray
David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  T M Murray

Really good post. I don’t agree that gender is just a set of social conventions – I think it likely that average differences in behaviour and personality between men and women are to some extent grounded in sex. But there is no doubt that society reinforces these norms.

The loosening up of our perception of gender was an entirely good thing so far as I’m concerned. It was a bit of a straight jacket for many of us, but especially for the gender non conforming.

Chris J
Chris J
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Given that the gendered behaviours of men and women have changed in significant ways over the centuries and also between different cultures I cannot see how it can be argued that these are somehow inherently grounded in te bilogical sex of the individual man or woman.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris J

They have changed to some degree, but there is much that is common across cultures. From memory Pinker covers this pretty well in the blank slate, and there is plenty in evolutionary psychology. We need to be careful that we don’t take superficial differences (like dress codes) as significant differences.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris J

I should also add that if there really are no innate biological differences in personality between men and women – that both are simply blank slates at birth – then a good deal has been conceded to the trans side of the argument.

If there are only people with penises and people with vaginas – with gender sitting in an entirely external relation to that – then there really is no reason why a man (sex) can’t be a woman (gender) and vice versa.

This is one of the reasons some on here argue that feminism opened the door to trans. Because it unhooked gender from sex.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris J

If by gender we mean how people present themselves to the rest of the world, that has changed over the millennia in response to the particular mores of the time. And there’s no doubt that sometimes those dress codes can reinforce specifically ‘sexed’ behaviours. But in broad evolutionary terms we’re still sexual animals and it’s always been natural for us to display ourselves in ways that are attractive to the opposite sex (if we’re that way inclined of course!) I’d say it’s easy to be outwardly gender neutral these days though. There are still social norms but most people can wear what they please & no one much cares. Many women never wear dresses…but funnily enough ‘trans’ women all do. They’re presenting stereotypes – it’s cosplay.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

I’m not sure it’s cosplay – they may lean towards stereotypes because they want to look feminine not ambiguous – and for most that is not going to be easy. I suspect there may be multiple reasons for someone being trans – there is no reason to suppose the psychology is simple. And we know so little.

Good post.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  T M Murray

would be to de-bunk gender (as queers and feminists did in the pre-Trans era)

The role of feminists in unanchoring gender from its moorings in sex often seems to be forgotten how. I sometimes wonder if this wasn’t too aggressive – especially as it was pushed in schools. Is this at least part of the reason for the gender uncertainty of young people?

Looked at historically, it’s impossible not to see feminism and trans as part of the same development. Ours is the age in which sex and gender became a problem. Not a secret, private one, but a very public and political one.

Mark Kidel
Mark Kidel
6 months ago
Reply to  T M Murray

You nailed it Mr Murray! Thank you. And a massive thank you to Kathleen Stock for her brave, brilliant and thorough journalism, and to Unherd and Freddie Sayers for going against the hysterical / witch-hunting grain. And to Lord Plasma for sharing his son’s story.

Susie Bell
Susie Bell
6 months ago

One thing that strikes me is the very small number of young people who appear to have been patients of GIDS. Has the World been turned upside down, all children exposed to abnormality, language changed for everyone, in order to accommodate an infinitesimally tiny proportion of the World’s young people? Also why have the presentation profiles of patients (showing many similarities) not been thoroughly explored? This cannot masquerade as science when glaring coincidence of non mainstream profile amongst patients is not researched.

rupert carnegie
rupert carnegie
6 months ago

An excellent and timely piece. I am convinced that one of the main antidotes to excess in this and other fields suffering from radical progressive cultism is the combination of fact based investigative journalism and calm reasoned debate. The public, when well informed, tends to react strongly against lunacy. Congratulations to Kathleen and UnHerd.

I suggest the next topic for fact based investigation should be corporate DEI training. Even in its own terms, I understand research reveals it is utterly counterproductive and that, if anything, it actually increases unconscious bias and systemic racism.

Meanwhile, the sensible next step on puberty blockers for teenagers is surely to make their prescription without a prior general assessment of autism, social contagion in the peer group, etc etc illegal – or at least medically unacceptable. A few doctors struck off for irresponsible prescription would change behaviour rapidly. Prior to the assessment, instead of teenagers being automatically “affirmed” 100% in their new gender choice they should be told that it is one amongst several possible explanations for their feelings i.e. it should neither be denied nor unambiguously endorsed.

Lastly, hidden away in this excellent essay was the truly radical idea that adults are not fully psychological mature until they are twenty five. Although I believe this is relatively uncontroversial amongst psychologists, unleashing this thought in public debate may cause mayhem. After Kathleen has slain the trans activist dragon, should we expect her next campaign to be raising the voting age to twenty five? with Charles Stanhope – an obvious ally – pointing out in support that this was Roman approach? The mind boggles.

Last edited 6 months ago by rupert carnegie
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago

Hear hear sir!

Melissa Martin
Melissa Martin
6 months ago

It is logically impossible to block sexual development without blocking the psychosexual development imperative for informed consent to irreversible loss of sexual & reproductive function. The legal clock they are running out is predicated on puberty having taken place by 18. Blocking the emotional development of the ‘terrible twos’ for a year would not result in a 3 year old with the emotional development of a 3 year old.

Juliet Boddington
Juliet Boddington
6 months ago

My concern is that by closing the Tavistock clinic (quite rightly) and then encouraging the opening of many more ‘hubs’ we are spreading this appalling trend, like the hydra,
.

N Satori
N Satori
6 months ago

Good to see UnHerd venturing beyond the limits of opinion-churning columns and getting stuck into some investigative journalism. Let’s hope this is the first of many. There are a host of institutions which could do with a thorough investigative light shone on their methods, their staff and the extent of their powers. My first choice would be Ofcom.

Chris J
Chris J
6 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Mine would be Ofgem, especially after the doubling of the “standing charge”.

Graeme Crosby
Graeme Crosby
6 months ago

“ For instance, the website of Indigo, the pilot service in Manchester, says: “We know that trans and non-binary people are the experts of their own experience… Our services are trans and non-binary-led, with trans and non-binary people guiding and feeding into them at all levels.”

A literal admission that rather than clinicians leading it is the lunatics who have taken over the asylum.

carl taylor
carl taylor
6 months ago

Sunak has just announced he intends to ban ‘trans conversion therapy’. The gender-affirming model is well and truly back on track in the UK. If this is the single issue for you, you may as well vote Labour now because the Tories – while they claim to know what a woman is – still apparently think it’s a good idea to try and change someone’s sex with hormones and a knife. If you have a gender non-conforming child who is drinking the Kool-aid, either on TikTok or at school, and you fear that the psychotherapists and the NHS are going to recommend chemical and surgical intervention to sterilise and mutilate them, think seriously about migrating to a red state in the US or to Finland, because the UK is fast becoming unsafe – whoever you vote for …

Chris J
Chris J
6 months ago
Reply to  carl taylor

Don’t Labour believe in “gender-affirming care” tooand with bells on.
Even though it actually acts as a form of gay conversion therapy in itself.

S Wilkinson
S Wilkinson
6 months ago
Reply to  carl taylor

At least Sunak doesn’t want to do it. He’s being blackmailed by a group of about 26 trans ally Tory MPs who have threatened to entirely derail his Justice Bill (from memory I think that’s what they’re going after) if he doesn’t introduce the ban.

George Scipio
George Scipio
6 months ago

Transgenderism rests on the notion that there is a “self” somewhere inside you, separate from the body that hosts it, which is capable of determining whether you are ‘really’ in the ‘right’ body. This is philosophical and psychological nonsense, but it is the basis of the equally ridiculous idea that gender dysphoria is a normal, healthy expression of human identity. It’s not. It’s a disorder, obviously, perhaps in the area of OCD (the doubting disease as it was called in the 19th century), dissociation and even aspects of psychosis – losing touch with reality. But the false Californian belief system of endless self reinvention in the search for hyperindividualistic libertarian-flavoured “authenticity” and imaginary “liberation” currently completely obscures the mundane truth that being human is difficult.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  George Scipio

“Transgenderism rests on the notion that there is a “self” somewhere inside you, separate from the body that hosts it,” <– There is no such thing as transgenderism, it is not an ideology or philosophy. It is a physical condition produced by anatomy — you will be unable to find any evidentiary support for you ludicrous claims.
The whole basis of gender affirming care is that by mischance of genetics and or natal environment, the anatomy producing one’s gender and that producing one’s sex have developed at odds with each other — and the examples of people attempting to raise children randomly or purposefully contrary their probable gender, such as David Reimer, bear out that theory . . .
. . . as does the drastic reduction is depression and suicidality seen in those who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria per proper standards of care such as those propounded by the WPATH, while young enough to benefit from the fully. That diagnosis has an accuracy rate in excess of 99%, and you have no examples to the contrary.

gemma oddy
gemma oddy
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

“the anatomy producing one’s gender” makes absolutely no sense I’m afraid.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  gemma oddy

I already knew reality made no sense to you.
https://taliaperkinssspace.quora.com/People-are-born-transgender-they-are-not-mentally-ill-it-is-no-paraphilia-it-is-a-physical-variance-from-the-usual-at
You want it to be real, and pretend it is real, a sort of perfection per usual which in human development never is never universally seen — only usually.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
0 0
0 0
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

I can see your blue hair from NZ

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
6 months ago

I’m completely fed up with the notion that there’s such a thing as a ‘trans’ child. Has the entire medical establishment developed Munchausen’s by Proxy? All children find puberty confusing, difficult, sometimes frightening. It’s the one major transition that all humans go through. Unless it’s way too early or otherwise a health concern, to prevent or deny a natural puberty is abuse. As for them deciding for themselves about their ‘gender’ (or to be exact, ‘sex’) we don’t let children drive or drink alcohol or carry guns or take drugs or operate heavy machinery or run the bloody country. But let them tell you they want to self-mutilate and suddenly they’ve developed a deep wisdom & understanding about sex, the universe and everything? It’s ludicrous. Those with true dysphoria need care and responsible medical health adults around to help them come to terms with the body they have.
I thank my stars that this rubbish wasn’t pushed on children when I was growing up in the 60 & 70s. A whole group of my girl friends when we were 12/13 years old used to say we wished we were boys. We’d have been instantly ‘affirmed’ and swept up into the maelstrom of drugs and surgery if we’d been growing up today. We were lucky.

Colorado UnHerd
Colorado UnHerd
6 months ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

An excellent response. My mother was a tomboy; so was I. She lived a heterosexual life; I’m lesbian. Straight or gay, girls or boys, these young people need natural puberty, with all its difficulties, to begin to know who they really are.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago

“Straight or gay, girls or boys, these young people need natural puberty, with all its difficulties, to begin to know who they really are.” <– No, they do not. What makes someone a man or woman occurs in the womb, and has solely to do with the brain between the ears and not the sex between the legs.

Stuart Bennett
Stuart Bennett
6 months ago

A brilliant article. Sorry to say that the findings of it are not in the least bit surprising, this is exactly what I expected when the closure of GIDS was announced. My first thought was it’ll just be the same people doing the same things in several places instead of one, and here it is!

1. No public funding for activists – none of them do research, they just broadcast opinions
2. Any employee of the service makes a patient decision supported by anything other than evidence based medicine is struck off

J Campbell
J Campbell
6 months ago

Next, the Sandyford Clinic please

Nuria Quitt
Nuria Quitt
6 months ago

An excellent article. I am reminded of the 1970s album and song ‘Crime of the Century’ by Supertramp. The lyrics are, IMO, chillingly accurate to what we see unfolding before our eyes. It appears to me that gender dysphoria, which I understand to be a mental health issue, is the perfect feeding ground for gender identity ideology, which could be termed the crime of the 21st century.
But perhaps it rather works the other way round: gender identity ideology creates, or at the very least, supports the development and existence of gender dysphoria. It is not the affected children and their parents that benefit from this development but big pharma. After all, medical transition guarantees a life-long income stream for pharmaceutical companies.
Kathleen Stock’s book ‘Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism’ arrived yesterday. I’m looking forward to reading it.
 

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Nuria Quitt

I assume KS is part of the new realism movement in philosophy or allied to it. It’s an interesting subtitle: implying, rightly in my opinion, that feminists need to be reminded that reality matters. For way too long now feminism has been all about discourses and narratives and dismissing disagreement as “patriarchy”. More mythological than scientific.

But the encounter with reality may be a difficult one. Some of the old weak minded thinking will have to go. Real issues will have to be faced as they are, not as they are imagined to be. Feminism can only gain by this, but it may be a bitter pill for some to swallow. Being free to believe whatever suits you, and your pet ideology, is a bit of a jolly. Having reality as arbiter is a lot less fun.

Chris J
Chris J
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

The same way mens rights activists believe that issues are as they imagine them to be?

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris J

Everybody needs to be challenged if they have drifted away from reality into a conceptual wonderland, or if their thinking is flawed. Do you have examples in mind?

Alan Hill
Alan Hill
6 months ago

“…NHS Gender Identity Development Service…” Sounds like something from a 1984 nightmare world.

Jacques Rossat
Jacques Rossat
6 months ago

Is this a ray of hope ?
” Long-running divisions on banning conversion therapy have seen Rishi Sunak dither on picking his side. But this morning’s Times reveals the King’s Speech will include draft legislation to ban attempts to change someone’s sexuality and gender identity in England and Wales, making it a criminal offence”

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Jacques Rossat

I’m assuming this is aimed at stopping “conversion therapy” – so may not be the ray you are looking for.

Therapy which tries to return someone from a trans identity back to one aligned with their actual sex is usually seen as an example of conversion therapy.

Last edited 6 months ago by David Morley
carl taylor
carl taylor
6 months ago
Reply to  Jacques Rossat

This is the opposite of a ray of hope. By banning ‘trans conversion therapy’ they force therapists to adopt a gender-affirming care model, or face being struck off or going to jail.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  carl taylor

Or at least make it a pretty terrifying tightrope walk.

J Campbell
J Campbell
6 months ago

The headline should read ‘England’s’ new trans clinics. As the Scottish organisation ScotPAG noted, there are two faces to the NHS in UK. NHS England has been subjected to rigorous scrutiny by the Cass Report and Hannah Barnes, yet is still chaotic and captured. NHS Scotland has had no such scrutiny & has retreated into an impenetrable and sullen silence where ideological capture also prevails.

james elliott
james elliott
6 months ago

Trans is paedophilia remarketed.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  james elliott

That is a re-marketing of the failed lies told against homosexuals, it will fail again.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  james elliott

That’s just silly. Can’t believe you got upvoted for it

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

I have no idea why it surprises you.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
Shrunken Genepool
Shrunken Genepool
6 months ago

Sue the bast**ds, close/defund the woke universities and bring back trade schools. Get the gender professors brick-laying

Mij Orchard
Mij Orchard
6 months ago

One of the biggest problems with running gender dysphoria clinics as a specialist service is that almost all the people who want to work in them will be ideologues with an anything but neutral approach to affirmation. These services are deeply unpopular with, for example, psychiatry trainees who might be rotated through them.
The only possible (or, at least, likely) futures for them are to continue to be run by people with ideological skin in the game, or for them to be absorbed into general medical, psychiatric, psychology services. Running them as ideologically neutral specialist services would require a very logistically challenging purge of those with a bias towards the transactivist mindset.

Last edited 6 months ago by Mij Orchard
David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Mij Orchard

almost all the people who want to work in them will be ideologues with an anything but neutral approach

This is such a general issue. Even academics will be drawn to areas of study where they have a strong allegiance with one side of the debate.

Last edited 6 months ago by David Morley
UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
6 months ago

How can a non-binary person be pregnant? Must have been doing something pretty binary to get in that condition.

Colorado UnHerd
Colorado UnHerd
6 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Awkward, isn’t it? To be in the most womanly of conditions while denying you’re a woman.

Last edited 6 months ago by Colorado UnHerd
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

“How can a non-binary person be pregnant?” <– Because some of them have working female reproductive systems, you idiot.

H W
H W
6 months ago

Women should sue for free breast enhancement surgery if men can get this and if other women can get free breast elimination surgery. Surely breast size choice is part of gender expression.
The issue of funding for ‘health’ treatment is key: why fund health treatment for something that is not a health problem? Having and eating cake…

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago

Talia Perkins, Champagne Socialist and David Morley: two bullshit spewing advocates of child mutilation and their cowardly enabler. Where are the real men and women?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  starkbreath

Except I’m the only one here with any facts, and you want the mutilation of a boy forced to have a period and breasts and a girl forced to have beard and a deep voice. They are real men and women — you are a permanent cowardly child.

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Everything you say is solipsistic bullshit which you state is if it were irrefutable truth, which absolutely none of it is. You must be twisted and hollow inside to advocate for the things you’re advocating for. There are none more venal and craven than those who would harm children.

Last edited 6 months ago by starkbreath
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  starkbreath

What I say is backed up by facts which you have not factually refuted, and since what I cite was not generated by myself it is not solipsistic. You are the venal and craven one trying to harm children.

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

You have no ‘facts’, it’s all made up horseshit. No point arguing with a sick mind.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  starkbreath
David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  starkbreath

The only thing the three of us have in common is that, deliberately or not, we rile up the dunces. Entertaining at least.

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

People who recognize the reality of biology are ‘dunces’? You just don’t have the spine to call out the glaringly obvious insanity and sick goals of the trans lobby, Neville.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  starkbreath

You do not recognize all of biology to be reality. That is why you think what is between the ears is immaterial, other than as psychiatry.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
6 months ago

Journalism at its best. Brava to Dr Stock and Unherd for such a thorough investigation into this dangerous collision between science and ideology.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
6 months ago

In a sane world every one of these ‘clinicians’ would be standing in the dock at the Old Bailey charged with conspiracy to inflict grievous bodily harm.

Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden
6 months ago

This informative article points to only one conclusion: Transhumanism is here to stay and the gendered mind requires concerted research, not just psychoanalytically but in today´s production of hormonal imbalances in young people that results in this ´transgendered mind´ which may also have a strong relationship with the preponderance of autism as a distinctly modern condition.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tyler Durden
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
6 months ago
Reply to  Tyler Durden

You make an important point. Even if the tide of trans-affirmation at a very young age were to be turned away from precipitate medical intervention, there’s something going on in the collective human psyche – probably as a result of, but not exclusively, the internet – which may have been lying dormant but has now established a foothold in plain view.
Prior to now, myths and sects have arisen around the issue, not just of trans-sexuality but the merging of humans with gods; indeed, Christianity is based upon the precept of Jesus being both man and god. What lies behind this psychic phenomenon really does need to be better understood.

Last edited 6 months ago by Steve Murray
Ewen Mac
Ewen Mac
6 months ago

Excellent article and thank goodness somebody’s doing some investigative journalism – the bulk of the media & political establishment has capitulated to gender ideology, which is the biggest threat to the safeguarding of children of our times.

Colorado UnHerd
Colorado UnHerd
6 months ago

It’s apparently too much to hope that Hobbs et al. would act as credible psychologists and doctors — according to historical professional standards — instead of imposing a “social justice and equalities framework” on vulnerable children whose dysphoria needs to be carefully investigated, not automatically affirmed.
These people are not fit for purpose, unless that purpose is to shill for a delusional ideology that demonstrably and sometimes permanently harms young people. They should not be involved in any response to the Cass review of Gids.
Thanks to Ms. Stock for so capably demonstrating her investigative journalism skills, in addition to those already in evidence as academic and author.

Last edited 6 months ago by Colorado UnHerd
Ida March
Ida March
6 months ago

Do those treated with puberty blockers remain prepubescent as adults?
Puberty blockers were initially sold as a delaying mechanism to allow for time in which to explore options. They were not initially sold as resulting in a permanent, irreversible change.
But can an 18 year old whose puberty has been blocked and who decides to stop taking them, then go through a much delayed puberty? Or has the moment passed forever, meaning they will always be prepubescent and never be a fully sexual adult?

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Ida March

My understanding is that it temporarily pauses puberty, and with cessation the clock starts to tick again. There must be some time limit on this though.

Ida March
Ida March
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

I’m not so sure about that, having heard various opinions, although it must depend on the age at which the puberty blockers were started and stopped.
Part of the problem is that puberty blockers are frequently followed by cross-sex hormones then actual surgery, often in quick succession.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Ida March

I’m not in favour. But like you I find objective information is hard to find. As is the case with the whole area. Why we would be implementing actions like this when we seem to know so little of what is going on is beyond me.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

“But like you I find objective information is hard to find.”
No, you do not. You will find it impossible to locate objective evidence which supports your inclinations — that is a different thing.
“Why we would be implementing actions like this when we seem to know so little of what is going on is beyond me.”
It is only your baseless pretense that we know little of what is going on.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
S Wilkinson
S Wilkinson
6 months ago
Reply to  Ida March

I don’t know all the answers but it certainly isn’t the simple ‘pause’ it’s made out to be. When used for precocious puberty these drugs are used for as short a time as possible to avoid developmental disruption as much as possible.
We don’t know enough because data collection has been sketchy at best. But there is plenty of evidence that some important developmental milestones, once missed, can’t be retriggered. Boys who have been on blockers that have inhibited their penile growth throughout normal puberty will not ‘catch up’ that growth and will always be left with a micro p***s.
Puberty blockers actually work on the brain rather than directly on the gonads and logic would suggest to me that the brain is coordinating a lot of different things developing alongside eachother during puberty and young adulthood. It stands to reason you can’t actually just ‘pause’ one bit without lasting effect. I did see mention of a study the other day which found that those who had been on blockers followed by cross sex hormones had IQs on average 10 points lower than their unmedicated peers suggesting that the disruption goes far beyond sexual characteristics.

S Wilkinson
S Wilkinson
6 months ago
Reply to  Ida March

I don’t know all the answers but it certainly isn’t the simple ‘pause’ it’s made out to be. When used for precocious puberty these drugs are used for as short a time as possible to avoid developmental disruption as much as possible.
We don’t know enough because data collection has been sketchy at best. But there is plenty of evidence that some important developmental milestones, once missed, can’t be retriggered. Boys who have been on blockers that have inhibited their penile growth throughout normal puberty will not ‘catch up’ that growth and will always be left with very small genitals.
Puberty blockers actually work on the brain rather than directly on the gonads and logic would suggest to me that the brain is coordinating a lot of different things developing alongside eachother during puberty and young adulthood. It stands to reason you can’t actually just ‘pause’ one bit without lasting effect. I did see mention of a study the other day which found that those who had been on blockers followed by cross sex hormones had IQs on average 10 points lower than their unmedicated peers suggesting that the disruption goes far beyond sexual characteristics.

Last edited 6 months ago by S Wilkinson
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  S Wilkinson

“When used for precocious puberty these drugs are used for as short a time as possible to avoid developmental disruption as much as possible.” <– And for as long as 10 years.
“We don’t know enough because data collection has been sketchy at best. But there is plenty of evidence that some important developmental milestones, once missed, can’t be retriggered. Boys who have been on blockers that have inhibited their penile growth throughout normal puberty will not ‘catch up’ that growth and will always be left with very small genitals.” <– You have not the slightest evidence for anything you have claimed.
“Puberty blockers actually … beyond sexual characteristics.” <- Fears based on nothing real, and in the 40 some years they have been in use, such problems would have been noted.
There is an ideological reason you are unable to draw a rational conclusion from that fact.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  Ida March

“Do those treated with puberty blockers remain prepubescent as adults?” <– No, not as a result of puberty blockers. For that matter, you can not possibly have any honest excuse for asking the question. They have been in regular use for over 40 years — do you really think any actual side effects are unnoticed?

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
Ida March
Ida March
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Puberty blockers block puberty. It’s what they do. Why do you object to me raising questions about these powerful drugs?
If a 12 year old is put on puberty blockers and stays on them throughout adolescence, what happens if they then come off them?
Do they go through puberty in their late teens and early twenties? Or do they never go through puberty at all, having missed the body’s time frame?
The problem in finding an answer is that in practice, puberty blockers are regularly followed by cross-sex hormones and actual surgery, often in quick succession, so there’s a problem isolating which drug or procedure is doing what?

Last edited 6 months ago by Ida March
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  Ida March

“Why do you object to me raising questions about these powerful drugs?” <– Because you have no factual basis for your objections, and the fact you are asking the questions you are asking means you have already decided to not look for or have decided to ignore the facts which already exist which answer them.
You have yet to express any honest question here.
If a 12 year old is put on puberty blockers and stays on them throughout adolescence, what happens if they then come off them? Do they go through puberty in their late teens and early twenties?” <– Would not happen per protocol since about the longest any child might be on blockers for gender dysphoria is 3 to 4 years, 5 at the very unlikely outside. Generally, 1 year on blockers is required for youth prior to any HRT. What happens if they stop blockers without cross-sex HRT is they undergo the puberty of their birth sex, as much as their prior anatomy allows. What happens if they stop blockers with cross-sex HRT is they undergo the puberty not that of their birth sex, as much as their prior anatomy allows. None of this is concealed in any way at any point by competent caregivers.
“Or do they never go through puberty at all, having missed the body’s time frame?” <– Within the age range involved, there is no such time frame.
“The problem in finding an answer is that in practice, puberty blockers are regularly followed by cross-sex hormones and actual surgery, often in quick succession, so there’s a problem isolating which drug or procedure is doing what?” <– No, there is not, because regret rate for such surgery is under 1%, also, the far larger number of people given puberty blockers for precocious puberty, endometriosis, and some sex related cancers show no signs of any such complications regardless of their age.
All of that is already known and publicly available. Why would you ask here unless your real purpose was to affirm your certainty that transgender children should be condemned by your preferred policy to the hell for which you think they are fit?

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
Ida March
Ida March
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

“Generally, 1 year on blockers is required for youth prior to any HRT. What happens if they stop blockers without cross-sex HRT is they undergo the puberty of their birth sex, as much as their prior anatomy allows. What happens if they stop blockers with cross-sex HRT is they undergo the puberty not that of their birth sex, as much as their prior anatomy allows.”
What does this mean? What is their “prior anatomy”? Are you saying that puberty blockers can change the anatomy even if only taken for a year?
Chloe Cole is the Californian detransitioner who is suing the health body responsible for prescribing her puberty blockers at 12 years old, followed by cross-sex hormones a year later, then a mastectomy at 15.
She now has a permanently deep, masculine voice because her voice box developed like a man’s would and this change is permanent.
Puberty blockers are the first stage in the process known as ‘gender affirming care’ which has left Chloe Cole, a young woman in her early twenties, without breasts, a permanently deep voice, changes to the structure of her face, and without knowing if her fertility has been affected or not.
And there are thousands like her, who have been permanently changed by the gender treatment they received, and now regret.
And it all starts with puberty blockers ……
Apparently puberty blockers prevent the bones mineralising. Have you heard about that?

Last edited 6 months ago by Ida March
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  Ida March

“What does this mean? What is their “prior anatomy”?” <– It means the obvious, that not everyone develops identically. Does every male human look like Gigachad? No. Could every male look like Gigachad if they worked hard enough at it? No.
Chloe Cole is the victim primarily of her parent’s who shopped her around to the three most permissive caregiver’s in her area before threatening to sue the 4th if they did not endorse surgery. Having evaded the WPATH standards of care entirely, her experience has nothing to say about those standards. At that it is worth noting that of the 3 total cases in history known to me of any FtM transgender youth having mastectomy at age 13, two are very happy with the results and now in their 30’s.
“And there are thousands like her, who have been permanently changed by the gender treatment they received, and now regret.” <– So what? That is consistent with a regret rate below 1%. Why do you seek to condemn to a living hell the other 99%+?
“Apparently puberty blockers prevent the bones mineralising. Have you heard about that?” <– I have heard that lie told before. There are in fact no instances of any person who underwent puberty who have any above baseline osteoporosis afterwards. You repeat a myth told in order to deceive, and you are apparently happy to be deceived.
Puberty mineralizes bone. Delaying puberty delays that mineralization. On either the puberty of the birth sex or one under cross-sex HRT occurring, bone then mineralizes.
The lie is to claim an expected temporary effect of the puberty blockers with a permanent effect never seen.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
Ida March
Ida March
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Are you relying on dodgy data from Tavistock GIDS – data which has been queried many times?
For example – “Dr Michael Biggs (an advisor to SEGM) has been calling for the release of data from the Tavistock’s experiment since 2019. A subset of the data were finally released following the judicial review into puberty suppression at the Tavistock clinic. Biggs’ reanalysis has just been published in the Journal of Paediatric Endocrinology and Metabolism. It finds that after two years on GnRHa, the Z-scores for a significant minority of the children had declined to a level that should trigger clinical concern. For the hip, one third of Z-scores were below -2. For the spine, over a quarter of Z-scores were below the threshold of -2. Some had even fallen below ‑3; such low bone density is found in only 0.13% of the population.
(SEGM, the Society for Evidence based Gender Medicine.)
And here’s more, showing how dodgy the data from Tavistock GIDS actually is.
“The clinical consequences of the failure to accrue normal bone mass are unknown, because the Tavistock’s researchers have not collected data on fractures experienced by children undergoing puberty suppression. Biggs cites an example of one patient at the Tavistock clinic who started GnRHa at age 12 and then experienced four broken bones by the age of 16. But there is no way of knowing whether this case is exceptional.” (Schagen et al. 2020).
Four broken bones by the age of 16 …….
Are you reading this?
As for the effects of puberty blockers being reversible –
“Puberty is an important time for bone strength development,” cautions Dr. Cartaya. “Because we’re pausing it, the decrease in bone mineral density that we see is likely due to the lack of the pubertal encouragement of bone growth. Once a child goes off of a puberty blocker, the bone mineral density increases, but it does not get back to where it was before.” Cleveland Clinic.
They never make up for lost time on puberty blockers.
Who is telling lies here?

Last edited 6 months ago by Ida March
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  Ida March

No, in fact I am not aware of any data from Tavistock particularly. I use more primary sources.
“It finds that … of the population.” <– Declined relative to whom? The usual trick as I mentioned is pretending poeple on blockers a the time can be compared to other people of their age who are not on blockers, the deceit just as I mentioned. Only if for example he is comparing people post blockers in say their 20’s to other poeple in their 20’s could there even possibly be anything of interest.
““The clinical consequences … case is exceptional.” <– What sports was the child involved with? And again, compared with whom?
“As for the effects of puberty blockers being reversible –
“Puberty is an … telling lies here?” <– You are telling the lies here, and you have provided no evidence of what you claim, that there is an irreversible decrease in mineralization of bone in puberty blocked youth after a certain age of administration of blockers.
That same Cleveland Clinic you quoted I can quote as well:
“When a child starts a puberty blocker, it doesn’t mean their body’s puberty changes are permanently suspended. A puberty blocker is more like a short-term solution. It stops the process for as long as a child is using the medication. Once usage stops, puberty will resume. “

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago

There is a certain historical irony here.

The suggestion, made here as elsewhere, is that without the pressure of trans ideology, many of these girls would grow up to be perfectly normal lesbians. Except that it is only relatively recently that this has been considered a normal outcome. And only after a long ideological fight, on similar lines to the current one.

Mary Whitehouse, for example, saw homosexual activists as taking advantage of a natural homosexual phase in child development to convince children they were gay. Absent such pressure, gay identifying children might grow up into “perfectly normal” heterosexuals.

In a sense, by ceding the right to set a scientifically discovered or socially sanctioned standard of normality (ie one outside subjective lived experience), we are in a poor position to try and reintroduce such a standard now.

Last edited 6 months ago by David Morley
Chris J
Chris J
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Funny then that people have been “growing up gay” well before any “mainstream activism” appeared.
It may not have been considered a “normal” outcome but happened quite often anyway despite the wall-to-wall heteosexuality displayed by the surrounding dominant culture.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Chris J

Ditto trans. There have always been trans individuals, and in some cultures there is greater acceptance that there are such individuals. In our own culture there was less acceptance, but as you put it “it happened quite often”.

There was even a small amount of sanctioned trans behaviour, through drag, pantomime, and fancy dress parties etc.

That aside, you appear to have missed my point anyway.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

“Mary Whitehouse, for example, saw homosexual activists as taking advantage of a natural homosexual phase in child development to convince children they were gay. Absent such pressure, gay identifying children might grow up into “perfectly normal” heterosexuals.” <– No, that is not the case. Her confabulations are only that.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

I’m paraphrasing MW

N Satori
N Satori
6 months ago

A google search (is there any other kind?) quickly reveals that Dr Christine Mimnagh is herself/himself a transgendered person.

Michael Whan
Michael Whan
6 months ago

There is a fundamental psychological question in all of this. In the complexity of the human psyche, each of us have an ‘internal other’. This in an ‘Otherness’ which is ‘me’ and ‘not me’. Troubled by a sense, feeling, or disturbing dream images of this ‘other’, we seek to rationalise it. So, naively and psychologically ‘innocently’, we try and find a concrete sense of this ‘other’. We turn to the ‘other’ of a contra-sexual image. This is clearly a failure to grasp psychologically what we are dealing with. It is like someone suffering from a generalised, abstract, anxiety, who seeks to deal with it by ‘inventing’ a ‘dog phobia’. Then that person feels erroneously that they have found the answer to their otherwise inexplicable anxiety. We seek to concretise the elusiveness of the psyche. This is a grave psychological mistake with harmful consequences.

R Wright
R Wright
6 months ago

Excellent article. It’s fascinating how GIDS acted as essentially an elaborate eugenics sandbox aimed at taking autism out of the general population.

mike otter
mike otter
6 months ago

Interesting to see that a deep dive investigation like this affirms the fact of “activist clinicians”. I expect a similar trawl through schools would find “acitivist teachers” and we already know the MSM has a high % of workers identifying as “activist journalists”. Remember the Lucy Letby trial circus featured “celebrity pyschiatrists” and “celebrity paediatric surgeons”. These status signifiers obviously function as ranks in the “long march through the institutions”. After a period as “activist radiographer” for example you become a “celebrity radiographer”. They show how ineffective the march itself has become – the damaged trans kids don’t strike me as “dictatorship of the proletariat” material and their public sector mentors spend so much time off sick i doubt they’d be fit enough for a revolution. They also show how bizarre neo-communism is compared to its fairly mundane origins in Marxist Leninism. After all Lysenko was 1 single celebrity under Stalin and didn’t have an “activist” following. Try applying neo-communist language markers to real jobs and professions and it shows the paucity of their thinking but is also quite scary: “Activist safety officer” anyone? “Celebrity Railway Signalling Engineer”? The mind boggles, but equally the ability of the modern left to strike fear into civil society is much reduced by these antics. Perhaps that’s why they want to leave the heavy lifting to their pals in Hamas and Daesh etc.

Last edited 6 months ago by mike otter
starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago

The Tavistock is still open and will be replaced by two new centers run by a lot of the same sick bastards, so now the hydra has two heads. Puberty blockers shouldn’t be given to any child ever, period. There is only one thing that will stop this tide of heinous, criminal child abuse and that is to completely reject the trans ideology and its supporters. Zero tolerance for their ludicrous claims.There are no ‘trans kids’, just shit parents.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  starkbreath

“Puberty blockers shouldn’t be given to any child ever, period.” <– Why? Do you even have the first idea why these drugs exist? No.
“There are no ‘trans kids’, just shit parents.” <– Too bad for you there is no evidence whatsoever of what you claim. All transgender people are or were trans kids, because it is a condition existing at birth.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

It’s sad, isn’t it? We’re encouraged to give children life-altering drugs and surgery, but penalized for trying to talk them out of it.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

No, you are penalized for decrying their making a choice known to be a very good one to the tune of more than 99 times out of 100 — where you are motivated by loathing and disgust for the child and only based on your ignorance.

Michael Whan
Michael Whan
6 months ago

There is a fundamental psychological question in this. In the complexity of the psyche, there is an ‘internal other’, which is ‘me’ and ‘not me’. Haunted by such disturbing sensations, feelings, and dream images, we try to rationalize and concretise them. So, we often turn to a contra-sexual fantasy figure. We identify with this psychic image, and erroneously seek to embody it (often literally). This fantasy of the ‘Other’ can take other forms, of course. But gender ideology pushes us towards the ‘opposite’ gender figure. Though such images come from a deeper level in the psyche, we personalise and literalize them. It is like having a generalised, abstract anxiety. We try and concretise it by ‘inventing’, say, a ‘dog phobia’. Then we can feel at least we understand why we are anxious and keep away from dogs. It keeps the anxiety contained. Thus, do we deal with the ‘internal other’, inherent in the very nature and complexity of the psyche. A naivety and simplistic psychology, psychotherapy, and psychiatry are then complicit in this literalising, concretising process.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
6 months ago

None of our resident Transatollahs making an appearance, I see.

Keeping to the shallows. Wise strategy.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago

If conversion therapy is banned, it will be increasingly hard to implement any kind of approach which is not gender affirming. At the very least, any non gender affirming care will involve suspending belief in the persons claimed identity while the issue is explored.

Will it really be possible to explore other causes? And if the professional convinces the patient that they are not really a boy in a girls body but that their feelings have some other cause, isn’t that an example of conversion?

Michael Whan
Michael Whan
6 months ago



David Lindsay
David Lindsay
6 months ago

With its concept of the self-made man or the self-made woman, gender self-identification is where Thatcherism has inevitably ended up. It was an unknown concept in 2010, and has arisen entirely under a Conservative Government. Margaret Thatcher was last depicted on British television, for the first time in quite a while, in December’s Prince Andrew: The Musical, the title of which spoke for itself, and in which she was played by one Baga Chipz, a drag queen. Well, of course. A figure comparable to Thatcher, emerging in the Britain of the 2020s, would be assumed to be a transwoman, just as Thatcher herself emerged in the Britain of everything from Danny La Rue and d**k Emery to David Bowie and The Rocky Horror Show.

Hence Thatcher’s destruction of the stockades of male employment, the economic basis of paternal authority in the family and in the wider community. She created the modern Labour Party, the party of middle-class women who used the power of the State to control everyone else, but especially working-class men. Truly, as she herself said, her greatest achievement was New Labour. Leo Abse, who had had the measure of the milk-snatcher, also had the measure of Tony Blair’s androgyny.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Precisely, well said sir.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
6 months ago

Thank you.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
6 months ago

Absolutely indispensable. Now, remind me who has been in government, well, pretty much forever these days. And who has been defining the paradigm by setting the economic agenda of every Government for nearer 50 years than 40.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
6 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

We look forward to Labour getting in (didn’t they also have 13 years , 1997-2010? Which is like, “forever”, as you say) and shutting down the harmful practices which flourished during their previous reign.

Ian L
Ian L
6 months ago

Do you really think labour are any better?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
6 months ago
Reply to  Ian L

NO.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
6 months ago

I am the last person to advocate voting Labour. Even though it is true that there was none of this in 2010.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
6 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Puberty blockers have been in use since well before 2010, but only to “children” over 16 until 2011, according to Google search.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago

They in fact have been used in children and adults since the ’70s, and out of the experimental stage since the early 80s. They have been in use for gender dysphoria for over 20 years. They are used for precocious puberty, gender dysphoria, some sex related cancers, and endometriosis.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
6 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Transgenderism isn’t a national political issue. It is a globalist one that seeks to a) desexualize children and young adults in order to reduce the global population and b) turn young people into the sexual playthings of the rich and powerful. What is becoming increasingly clear is that once we removed Christianity from our Western foundations, we didn’t replace it with secular enlightenment, but with a dark occultism that is gradually infiltrating our once-reliable institutions.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago

“Moreover, it seems NHS systems are still influenced by activist thinking; in particular, by the idea that a sex-incongruent gender identity is something to be “affirmed”, either as a matter of social justice or as personal liberation.” <– No such thing is true. Gender affirming care is based on the idea gender is a biological characteristic fixed in utero, and that it can not be changed without regard to the pressure or abuse heaped onto a child to try to make as is preferred by another.
It is the factually basis pretense of social conservatives than anything else is true and relevant.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Thanks for commenting. It’s a bit one sided on here. Can you point to the evidence that gender (gender identity?) is fixed in utero. Or is this a hypothesis, a bit like the “gay gene” idea?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

There never was a “gay gene” idea. That implies something singular. The “single gay gene” was a strawman argument beaten by social conservatives to cover up for the overwhelming evidence of a biological impetus towards being gay — there are about 30 genetic alleles having more of them means someone is more likely to be gay. These papers talk about the genetic variants associated with being transgender.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31882810

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17765230/

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/104/2/390/5104458

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Thanks for that. I used “gay gene” as a kind of shorthand. I realise that for almost all aspects of human personality there are multiple genes

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

This is very interesting – especially the OU paper because of its size and use of a control group. The research is more advanced than I thought. It would certainly be helpful to have a way of confirming trans identity which is more objective than subjective feelings.

Thanks for making the effort. And please keep contributing to the discussion, even if you get downvotes.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

“It would certainly be helpful to have a way of confirming trans identity which is more objective than subjective feelings.” <– The accuracy of diagnosis by the current gender affirming approach with consequent surgery is already higher than 99%.
Why pretend other wise? Why have a firm opinion as you do, when you know not?
I will post links in this reply, and UnHerd may show this in 24 hours. I will duplicate this post without the links, so you know to look for it.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35690947/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

“It would certainly be helpful to have a way of confirming trans identity which is more objective than subjective feelings.” <– The accuracy of diagnosis by the current gender affirming approach with consequent surgery is already higher than 99%.
Why pretend other wise? Why have a firm opinion as you do, when you know not?
I will post links in this reply, and UnHerd may show this in 24 hours. I will duplicate this post without the links, so you know to look for it.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Something I have wondered out loud on here (not well received) is whether certain masculine presenting lesbians are in fact trans (or better, that we are dealing with related phenomena).

Their reaction to trans could then be seen as a sort of denial. After all, there is nothing intrinsic about sexual orientation/ same sex attraction that should lead you to adopt male clothing styles. And yet many do. It would perhaps also explain the rather troubled relationship to masculinity that some of these people have.

Further genetic research may give us some answers.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

So my perfectly factual reply to you has been disappeared. Do you really think the herd here is on the side of the angels?

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

I think some people on here seem to go on flagging campaigns against stuff they disagree with. It’s a mixed bag on here, but certain articles bring out the worst. Mainly the ones around the trans issue. Some people on here are open minded, some less so.

I’m probably not on your side in this debate (I want to be completely honest) but nonetheless I find the bigotry and lack of sympathy quite shocking. To be honest I’ve seen it all before – it usually comes from feminists of a certain age – and it seems to reflect a hatred of men rather than of trans people specifically.
It’s good to see some challenge on here.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

If you think this is bad, try a Julie Bindel article.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago

“Given the acknowledged lack of a solid evidence base, to prescribe such poorly-understood drugs privately could be seen to be incautious.” <– What an outlandish lie! They’ve only been in use for more than 40 years and are perfectly well understood.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

I love how you liars downvote the literal truth. You aren’t the “unherd” you are only a herd. Resenting reality is not itself a counterpoint.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Talia – try not to rise to the bait. I get downvoted all the time. The more so the better the point I am making. It usually means they have no counter argument.

Can you link to research?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

“Can you link to research?”
No, UnHerd removes it.
EDIT: or takes 24 hours or so to unhide it.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
m_dunec
m_dunec
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

“Resenting reality is not itself a counterpoint.”

That’s a bit rich. Seems to work well enough for trans & ideologues!

Last edited 6 months ago by m_dunec
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  m_dunec

There is no part of ignoring reality to being transgender. That is why you are unable to point out what part of reality transgender people ignore.
Of the two of us, you are the ideologue.

m_dunec
m_dunec
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

The biological reality. The part about no woman having a p***s, or there’s no such thing as non binary, or maybe the part, where transwomen are men.

Last edited 6 months ago by m_dunec
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  m_dunec

Biological reality is that some women have penises, that non-binary people exist, and transgender women are women for the same reason any woman is. That you pretend there is ever any aspect of human sexual development which is always perfect is your ignoring reality.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
m_dunec
m_dunec
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Healthy debate occurs when people can agree that they have differences of opinions, not differences in facts.”
— Robert J. Braathe

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  m_dunec

And I have actual facts and you do not. This debate is about how much success you have in hurting transgender people, including children — no more or less than that.

m_dunec
m_dunec
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Speaking of transgender, hurting, children – just read about that 53 year old transwoman, who abducted a young girl for 27 hours of sexual assault and torment. Primary school age. The horrific reality of women and children.

You shouldn’t judge others, by your own standards.

Last edited 6 months ago by m_dunec
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  m_dunec

Oh I definitely judge others by my standards — and you certainly do not want to be judged for the sins of other cisgender people by your standards, now, do you?

m_dunec
m_dunec
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Exactly my point, you shouldn’t judge others, by your standards. They suck. Seems we’re all out to hurt each other, by your standards. The aim is quite the opposite, in fact.

Keeping women and children safe is the aim, that your lot cannot seem to fathom.

Last edited 6 months ago by m_dunec
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  m_dunec

No, by your standards, all transgender people are out to hurt children — this means your standards are those of an imbecile.
“Keeping women and children safe is the aim,” <– Which is not your real aim, or you would be as worried about cisgender people as transgender people.
Your real aim is to hurt transgender people, on the basis of your bigoted disgust.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
m_dunec
m_dunec
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

“Worried about cisgender people as transgender people” … Kinda like, being worried about white people as black people. Weird.

Yet again, the transgender position turns to insults and slurs. That’s a shame, just another typical trans rights activist.

Gaslight and attack. Over and over, again. Far too threatened, to accept sex based facts, and way too privileged to respect other people’s, hard earned rights.

And all because, you refuse to accept that #sexmatters.

Last edited 6 months ago by m_dunec
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  m_dunec

Well your sort are the kind who’d like the “Whites Only” sign back up, at that.
“Yet again, the transgender position turns to insults and slurs.” <– No, only facts you can not deal with with maturity.
I am mentioning facts, and you are appealing to emotion only bigotry.
You are trying to gaslight me, by claiming what one transgender person does says anything about me, while claiming crimes by cisgender people says nothing about you.
Gender is a “sex based” fact, it is between the ears. The sex between the legs never makes any decisions, at that.
You need to learn to deal with reality.

m_dunec
m_dunec
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

“You need to deal with reality ”

You must really hate reality, and that’s sad. Seems at the heart of transgenderism, is just another sad, hatred of reality.

Most of the world have hated reality. Its sadly, very relatable, and millions of people hate reality, every minute, of every day! Many who seek change, will find no amount of discourse, pleading or praying; will ever change their hated reality, but instead, will have little choice but to live with it.

Such as it is, in biological reality; humans cannot change sex, meaning, the change you are seeking, is impossible to achieve.
You would be wise to heed your own advice.

Last edited 6 months ago by m_dunec
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  m_dunec

No, I actually understand the relevant parts of reality, where you do not even care. Human sexual dimorphism is not always perfect in every way per usual in everyone. That some people are born transgender is what the physical evidence proves.
In biological reality, the sex of a person can be changed to match their gender just exactly as is described by the people who do it — you have no objective, factual grounds on which to object — and of right you have no such say in the lives of others.
You would be wise to learn what is real, but you are too stupid and evil to care — you want to force girls to have beards and deep voices, and you want to force boys to have breasts and periods, and only to suit your vanity in thinking you are a person of good morals.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
6 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Biological reality is that some women have penises

Can you explain this one to me? I’ve always felt, perhaps mistakenly, that possessing a p***s was a defining feature of being a man, not a woman.

starkbreath
starkbreath
6 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Got a feeling that our girl ‘Talia’ is one of those individuals with a choad.

Last edited 6 months ago by starkbreath
Champagne Socialist
Champagne Socialist
6 months ago

If I’d known that UnHerd’s content was going to be primarily made up of the usual conservative trans-panic then I would never have bothered, particularly when we have to endure one-sided “research” from discredited bigots.
Not like that there’s a war or two on that they might want to focus on…

Last edited 6 months ago by Champagne Socialist
rupert carnegie
rupert carnegie
6 months ago

Come off it. Without a morning dollop of UnHerd provoked outrage, your breakfast would be incomplete and you would not be energised sufficiently to face the day.

Simon Cornish
Simon Cornish
6 months ago

To call Kathleen Stock a ‘discredited bigot’ is the opposite of the truth. She is very bravely and intelligently critiquing the influential theories that suggest that gender identity trumps a person’s biological sex as outlined in her book ‘Material Girls’. She doesn’t question that gender dysphoria exists, she questions the narrow pathways of responses that existed at the Tavistock clinic, and which, despite the scathing review, are in danger of being perpetuated.
It seems eminently sensible and vital that thorough research is undertaken on the long term effects of the hormone interventions currently prescribed as well as researching the psychological alternatives that could be the cause of gender dysphoria. The transactivist network wishes to silence debate on this subject by attacking questioners’ morals, motives etc in wholly emotional terms causing, due to the current climate of fear, deplatforming, loss of employment and reputational damage. But mostly it results in many people remaining silent on the topic.

Last edited 6 months ago by Simon Cornish
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  Simon Cornish

“She is very bravely and intelligently critiquing the influential theories that suggest that gender identity trumps a person’s biological sex as outlined in her book ‘Material Girls’.” <– No, she claims that unthinking and unemotional flesh which never makes so much as one decision in it’s whole existence is more important and more “real” and more biological than the brain is. She is an ideologue to the extent of being an imbecile.
“She doesn’t question that gender dysphoria exists” <– But she has not the slightest fact based impression of it.
“she questions the narrow pathways of responses that existed at the Tavistock clinic” <– You mean the sole one which demonstrate any effectiveness in relieving human suffering? They didn’t keep ones proven failed after 70+ years of trying them? Oh horrors! They also weren’t using lobotomy or electroshock — and there are good reasons why.
“are in danger of being perpetuated.” <– What is dangerous is that they may not be. They quite effectively help and are appreciated by transgender people, but they do not affirm Social Conservative’s factless biases — which is all this is really about.
“It seems eminently … of gender dysphoria” <– The pretense the last 20+ years are meaningless is breathtaking.
“as well as researching the psychological alternatives that could be the cause of gender dysphoria” <– That’s just it. Psychiatry spent 70 years pretending there were psychiatric causes of people being transgender, and they never found any. That and the mounting evidence of solely physiological causes for it are why they gave up on it and finally endorsed gender affirming care. You ignoring and even being deliberately ignorant of that long history is the way any uninvested or informed person knows you are not on the side of the angels.
“The transactivist network … and reputational damage.” <– There is no more a rational debate to be had on the topic than that phlogiston causes fire or that the Earth is flat.
“But mostly it results in many people remaining silent on the topic.” <– I see no evidence of silence, I see loud deliberately stupid bigots trying to force girls to have beards and deep voices, and to force boys to have breasts and a period; I see people so proud of their moral vanity they do not see they are the monsters they claim they fight.

Last edited 6 months ago by Talia Perkins
m_dunec
m_dunec
6 months ago

It seems the only people KS really upsets, are in fact bigots, misogynists and trans rights activists. Every time she publishes, they pop up like worms in the rain!

To the rest of us, she is a national treasure and her time and work on this dire matter, is greatly appreciated. Keep it up Kathleen, more power to you!

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  m_dunec

I haven’t read all the posts, but it only seems to be CS who is taking an anti KS position. Most people are appreciative of KS – some because they agree with her, some because she writes and thinks clearly, and some because she gives something solid to disagree with. She never just rants!

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  m_dunec

You’re actually as bad as CS. Why not drop the silly fan girl stuff and engage critically with the issues? Even CS has something thoughtful to say sometimes.

Dick Stroud
Dick Stroud
6 months ago

Now, here’s an idea. How about providing the “research” that KS omitted?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
6 months ago
Reply to  Dick Stroud

Why bother? Un/IsAHerd deletes anything that exercises it’s editorial staff excessively.

Stuart Bennett
Stuart Bennett
6 months ago

Someone hasn’t read Hannah Barnes book. Although as we all know Barnes is shill for the fascists at BBC Newsnight.

Last edited 6 months ago by Stuart Bennett