Tel Aviv
A handsome man in his 20s in a military uniform zips past me on a motorised scooter. A woman with a tattoo and piercings calmly sips a cortado in a coffee shop across from me. A young family bustles past. This is Israel in 2023.
I am on my way to a screening of “raw” footage of the 7 October massacres that Hamas committed against Israeli civilians. Atrocities that are being denied and dismissed across social media and in parts of legacy media internationally. “In 2023 we are still dealing with holocaust denial,” says my contact in the IDF media unit. “This event is an attempt to put that right.” This is also Israel in 2023.
Devices were banned. No photos or recordings. It is, we are told, just too awful. And so it is that at 11:30 local time around 250 international journalists file into a military base in a Tel Aviv suburb. Hundreds of bottles of water are laid out. The staff are smiling and friendly.
I’ve never seen Israeli press officers so professional and slick and — indeed — charming. If this sounds glib, it’s not. This is a country that has traditionally favoured hard power above all else, often to the detriment of its messaging. Now they are desperate to show the world what they are facing.
The venue is a lecture hall with a large stage. “October 7th, 2023. Hamas Massacre. Collected Raw Footage.” is the title on a screen that covers the back wall. We are reminded again that no devices are allowed. There are issues around the anonymity of victims, especially those still alive, raped or taken hostage.
IDF spokesman Daniel Agari steps up to deliver some preliminary remarks. “We want people to understand what we are fighting for,” he says. “This is something else. Something has happened to Israel. This is not about rage or righteousness but the sense that this is a crime vs humanity. This is good v bad. Death v life. These [terrorists] will do anything. [commit any crime]. And it’s nothing to do with Islam,” he adds. It is a refrain I hear through the event. Clearly the word has come down to make a clear separation between Hamas, the wider Palestinians and, above all, with Islam.
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SubscribeThank you David. There’s so much denial out there – people conditioned to disbelieve Netanyahu, to disbelieve the US. Part and parcel of cognitive dissonance. Please keep reporting and revealing the truth.
“ to disbelieve the US”.
After the disgrace of WMD and Iraq War II, do YOU really find that surprising?
You reap what you sow in this life.
Yeah your right Charles the people in Gaza are reaping what they sew, hope your happy now
.
Yeah all those women and children deserve every bomb and bullet
You people are sick
Hamas could have put their rocket launchers on barges off the coast and launched from those. They need dead Palestinians so the West will call off Israel and there will be no repercussions of October 7th.
Israel will destroy large parts of Gaza, thousands of Palestinians will be killed, the war will end, millions in aid will flood into Gaza, Palestinians will receive little benefit and the multimillion dollar bank accounts and property portfolios of the Hammas leadership in Qatar will grow massively.
What you mean the Israeli women and children who were murdered on September 7th?
What has happened to your powers of comprehension? Or is English not your native tongue?
Incidentally it is SOW not SEW.
You expose your racism … to condone such savagery is to facilitate it
Comprehension classes for you to I’m sorry to say.
for you, too ….
I’m NOT condoning savagery, I want it to stop. Too many people have died. Hamas has killed 1400+ people, I think this is terrible, so do you
But the IDF has killed 5000+ and is planning to kill far more. Too many people like you don’t have a problem with this. Why ?
And you call me a racist, time to take a look in the mirror, you muppet
Thank you for saving me the trouble of reprimanding Calhoun.
Poor chap he probably can’t help it.
It’s called killing the enemy. Did we worry that much about German civilian deaths during WWII? The US started 2 wars after 9/11. The deaths were not “proportional.”
It’s stunning how few remain who can discern the moral ocean between tragic casualties of war and demonic murder
Is this the appropriate place to score points (true or not) about WMD and Iraq war?
I am NOT scoring points as you so inelegantly put it .
I’m asking the rhetorical question “ Who would seriously ever believe the USA again after the WMD and Iraq War II atrocities”? Your good self perhaps?
Or our own Government included; and you can include Covid in that equation.
What are we supposed to think, yes they lied bout all that but they would not lie about this.
On WMD, at the time I reasoned that a British Prime Minister would never lie about something so important
I completely agree, our own Government, past and present is beyond contempt.
Duplication.
Charles you have valid points to make but your writing is often downright rude. You could be more polite and get your points across.
Really?
Would you care to give me an example?
With the bodies of dead children by your side maybe you you don’t squabble over their haircut. It is not done , you know.
I think you maybe missing the point, which has NOTHING to do with Hamas’s atrocities, but is all about whether ‘we’ still believe a word the United States says.
If I see a US officials lips moving I assume he is LYING, until proved otherwise. QED?
Unfortunately, and this is coming from an American. I agree. The US government is run by elites who are pushing their own ideology over the will of the people, and they’ve repeatedly demonstrated their willingness to use lies and deception to advance their agenda and hide the less popular bits from the people. Fool me once, etc. I don’t believe anything my government says without qualification, especially when it comes to anything in the Middle East. Furthermore, the failures of US policy in the region are partially to blame for this horror show. The US government chose to accept Hamas as the legitimate government of Gaza and attempted to work with them. Our government has been trying to play both sides to further their ‘one big happy planet’ globalist dream where everybody is free and democratic and we all get along with each other so there’s never any war or conflict. This is just another example of how they’ve failed the basic test of leadership, an understanding of human nature, including the darker side of our nature.
That said, this isn’t about what the Americans did. It’s about what Hamas did, and the Israelis, who I have far greater trust in, say they did. Further, they have video to prove their claims. Of the two sides in this conflict, I’m more inclined to believe the Israelis. This is not a time to quibble over details. It is a time to face the enemy and destroy them. We should all support Israel without question given what’s happened to them.
Exactly, I thank you.
Thanks Charles. Now I know you. I read your frequent contributions often. Now I won’t bother to read them any more.
What do you disagree with precisely?
You need to go way. No one enjoys your posts and attempts at thinking.
Speak for yourself although, I haven’t noticed you before. Are you new to all this?
Incidentally why that pretentious cartouche? Do you see yourself as Hamlet perhaps?
Not true.
I frequently disagree with Charles’ posts (and sometimes even agree). But I often enjoy them and I want to see a diversity of opinion honestly and forecefully expressed here.
Censorship is never the answer.
Taking out Saddam was a net positive for the world.
John Howard your late PM would have been a better choice.
Has anyone ever told you that your’re disgusting? No? You’re disgusting.
That’s a rather uncharacteristic loss of temper Carroll, have you been drinking? Or do you also lack any powers of comprehension?
I don’t understand. The man said that the general public has been successfully primed by plenty of massive lying not to believe governments’ accounts. What is that makes him disgusting again?
Carroll’s an Irishman. Nearly all carry a massive chip on the their shoulders. Who can really blame them, poor old things?
It ain’t a war crime to kill human shields. Protesters have ignored that fact. It’s only a war crime to hold humans as shields for military targets. The ONLY war criminals are Hamas. Under the rules of war, any military installation is a legal target, regardless of whether there are civilians on or near the target. If there are civilians on or near the target, it is the resposibility of the controling authority, in this case Hamas, to evacuate the civilians as best they can. Hamas tries to stop civilian evacuations, because they want to maximize civilian casualties. Again, that’s Hamas’ war crime and ONLY Hamas’ war crime, no matter how many civilians are killed.
Hamas has over 400 km of tunnels under Gaza, but no bomb shelters for civilians. Hamas has supplies for months of siege, but Gaza civilians are already running out of drinking water, fuel and food. In short, Hamas values civilians in Gaza only as casualties and human shields.
Everything Hamas does is a war crime: genocide, killing babies, taking hostages, killing prisoners of war, using human shields and making no provision for the civilians under their control. Nothing Israel does is a war crime.
As a former USAF Officer, I was trained and remember the rules of war. It’s typical that leftists who identify as journalists haven’t bothered to look them up.
If you go back to the start of this little discourse you will note that I tangentially picked up on Mr/Mrs/Ms Jen Segal’s remark “ to disbelieve the US”, which he or she made about 13 hours ago now.
Thus I think you maybe missing the point, which has NOTHING to do with Hamas’s atrocities, but is all about whether ‘we’ still believe a word the United States says, in the face of the blatant lies about WMD to justify the Iraq War II.
In other words if you see a US officials lips moving you should assume he is LYING, until proved otherwise. A most regrettable state of affairs, but there it is. QED?
It’s good to hear that somebody can actually separate the good guys from the bad guys. It doesn’t happen often that an enemy so clearly and convincingly demonstrates their evil for all to see. There have been few situations I have witnessed in my lifetime that are clearly black and white, good vs. evil. This looks to be one of those rare moments. This is G.I.Joe vs. Cobra. In fact, it’s probably clearer than that, yet we still have people condemning Israel and cheering Hamas. I can’t help but feel it’s not a good sign for our civilization if we have this much trouble deciding who the bad guys are when they’re being this obvious about it.
No, not surprising, actually. And yes, you reap what you sow. Not really drawing the connection you are making, just saddened that Hamas propaganda is given more weight than that of an ally. And, of course, horrified by the slaughter of innocents.
Do you really think that any true born Englishman gives a tinker’s cuss about Hamas and its ludicrously obscene propaganda? To lapse into the old colonial vernacular, they are just a bunch of uncivilised w*gs and thus beneath contempt.
‘We’ should know, we ruled them for long enough with a rod of iron. More’s the pity they were ever given independence, but you can blame the good old US of A for that particular blunder.
You are so wrong, Stanhope
Hamas murder of innocents has nothing to do with the US misguided Iraq adventure.
Thank you for doing that, David. I know I couldn’t. Even the description of what you viewed was hard to take at several points.
The sheer sadistic evil of what was perpetrated is hard to comprehend. Apologists for this atrocity put themselves beyond the pale of any civilised society.
Worse than that the apologists are facilitating the evil
Richard, this comment is really quite offensive. Wanting to end the spiral of violence and extremism is not the same as “facilitating” it.
A theatre in Paris, a school in Beslan, a concert in Manchester, a village in Nigeria, a beach in Tunisia, a cage in the desert. These examples and so many more have nothing to do with Hamas, yet the phrase Allahu Akbar is the commonality with the depravity committed across the border from Gaza. It is no less than the exultation of evil. This is Islam.
Indeed, and if they were to follow the tactics of their illustrious predecessors THE ASSASSINS ‘we’ would have some respect for them.
As it is they obviously can’t*, and we shan’t!
(*Because they are just too damned COWARDLY in my opinion.)
Are there any war crimes you won’t excuse from our enemies based on your erroneous interpretations of the laws of war? You seem too believe Hamas can kill whoever they want, then run back behind their own civilian human shields and be immune from attack. However, the use of human shields is a war crime. Attacking military targets with human shields on or near the target ain’t. Civilian deaths in Gaza are Hamas’ resposibility, not Israel’s.
Civilian deaths in Mosul and Falujah were the responsibility of ISIS, not the US.
You misunderstand me. Everything they have done so far is an atrocity.
They have to learn to emulate their forebears,The Assassins, and follow their example if they have the stomach for it, which I doubt.
You might also like to read up on the subject, I’m sure you will find it most interesting.
It’s easy to misunderstand what you said, Charles You must take care to write with more clarity. Re-read what you write and see how it might sound to the reader. You often shoot off non-sequiturs just because you think they’re amusing.
Thank you!
I thought I wrote with perfect clarity, but have obviously deluded myself.
Your are correct I do try to lace my comments with a little humour if possible.
Sadly as at 22.22 BST my Chief of Staff of many years standing, seems to have suffered a major stroke, and is unlikely to see the Dawn. Thus this is probably my last epistle!
Consummatum est, as the Ancients would say!
I for one am sorry to hear it.
Tetélestai..
I don’t understand that. A friend is dying so you can’t write comments anymore? Please don’t leave, there is only one Charlie!!
Would “we”? Speak for yourself.
I would.
The apologists always claim that Islam is a religion of peace, but is the concept of peace even the same? I don’t think so. The meaning of peace in Islam is submission to the will of God, which does not match my definition of peace at all. I don’t require a deity to have peace. To judge a belief system, any belief system, look at its followers.I have been doing that for quite some time, and I am not impressed.
Very well put.
Are all guilty by association?
One could examine how the the student population in Germany supported the Red Army Faction and other terrorist groups; provided moral support, raised funds, provided legal support, provided safe houses, lent cars etc,. It was the provision of safe houses which enabled RAF members to evade capture for so long.
Red Army Faction – Wikipedia
The concept of submission is the heart of “Islam problem”. There will never be a reformation comparable to that of Christianity. The truth is in “the book”. It is the word of God and must never be questioned, discussed, doubted, interpreted.
Correct me if I am wrong but to be a good Muslim one must be obedient above all. One’s inner life is less important. Compare that with Christ’s depiction of mere rule-followers as “white-washed tombs” and the Christian concern with conscience.
Christians are also taught to be obedient to God, but also not to judge one another. Jesus condemned the religious zealots of his age, the Pharisees, as hypocrites who only followed the commandments for the sake of status in the eyes of their fellow men rather than out of love for one’s neighbors or obedience to God. It is not the act, but the intent, that defines sin, and separates good from evil. That distinction is the basis of much of our law, and has become so ingrained into western thought and culture that we no longer question it.
Also, let’s not forget the contrast between the biblical Jesus and the historical Mohammed. We don’t know much about Jesus outside the Bible because he didn’t do anything that appeared to be historically meaningful at the time. He didn’t conquer anybody or spread his religion at the point of a sword or lead a rebellion or anything of the sort. If he had, he would probably be mentioned more often by contemporary historians. Mohammed, of course, we know an awful lot about, because he built a small religious empire in Saudi Arabia and his immediate followers built it into a very large one. The contrast is between a man who rejected material wealth, material gain, conquest, and power in the material world against a man who embraced all these.
Why are commenters here obsessed with the “apologists” for Hamas”? They are marginal and irrelevant. The far more important question is why Western European leaders have given their endorsement to Israel’s collective punishment in retaliation. That is profoundly more disturbing.
“They are marginal and irrelevant”
They are obviously not marginal or irrelevant.
There is a reason why the BBC is whitewashing a terrorist organization and the Police is ignoring blatant calls for violence (while Jewish schools need to close for the sake of safety).
If Israel’s response can be considered collective punishment, it’s not very punishing is it. “Hey Gaza, we’re about to blow up this military target, please could everyone there/nearby get out so no-one gets hurt unnecessarily?”
That’s pretty decent as far as warfare is concerned but maybe you disagree. Collective punishment would be completely indiscriminate bombings and the capturing/torturing innocent civilians. You know, the sort of things those oppressed freedom fighters do. Free Palestine?
“This is Islam”. Agree with you entirely and that’s why it is extremely surprising, to me at least, to see IDF spokesman Daniel Agari quoted in the article as saying “…it’s nothing to do with Islam.” Even a perfunctory knowledge of the vile Islamic State, or “The Caliphate” as its theocratic leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, arrogantly called it, would make it clear that the recent Hamas outrages employed ISIS tactics to the letter.
That was difficult enough to read, so having to write that after watching it first hand must have been something else. Sadly, in light of the absolutely shameful coverage of events from Western media in regards this conflict, it’s damning that this conference was needed at all. Thank you.
I have up until now refused to look at images of the barbaric acts of the terrorists as this whole situation is like a reprise of the Shoah. Then I read this essay and I was shaken to the core by its vivid and unavoidable descriptions of Hell.
What is that Islam constantly tell us infidels?
“Allah is merciful.”
Hamas and its supporters obviously worship a different God.
The true horror is that many more people, who may not ever engage in such atrocities as committed by these monsters, share and justify the underlying beliefs and the hatred for Jews. Not all, of course, but many. And not just in Gaza, but all over the world.
Jews are an easy scapegoat, and that’s what it’s all about -having a scapegoat for the disowned parts of the hater. Self-hate projected outward, in this case onto Jews. It makes the hater feel better about themselves. Most anti-Semites don’t even know why they hate Jews.
If y read the article you would understand the author did not lay the blame on Islam
“But something else is clear, too. Something that the footage confirmed. What happened on 7 October had nothing to do with resistance. It had nothing to do with occupation or a one or two-state solution. It was about something far more ancient and atavistic — the desire to kill Jews wherever they are and whoever they are. And against that there can be no retreat.”
I don’t think he was talking about Zoroastrians. I could be wrong.
I’m not sure that it is clear that it’s not about resistance. Why can’t it be both about resistance and an atavistic hatred? Hamas are a death cult, but the political failures from all parties are why this happened. Israel financed Hamas when it first emerged to undermine Arafat – Israelis have admitted as much. The take it or leave it offers on the table at Camp David were never going to be acceptable to Palestinians. The agony of both sides is appalling and the Israelis and Palestinians have reaped the whirlwind.
i suppose Camp David at least allowed Arafat to reclaim the Sinai for his country, Egypt.
“The take it or leave it offers on the table at Camp David were never going to be acceptable to Palestinians”
this is not true. They should have accepted
Merciful ?
Well, after reading about things like the Banquet of Blood, I suppose they have to find someone in Islam who is.
It seems in short supply.
‘They’ unwittingly worship the Goddess NEMESIS.
Nemesis is/was the embodiment of jealousy, envy and anger. No savagery is beyond reproach.
What about Moloch ? Children were burnt as a sacrifice to Moloch.
Moloch – Wikipedia
Yes I think I have seen some evidence of Moloch & Co in Carthage!
However my preference is always for Classical Greece and Rome.
Academics have been very quiet on this subject both in Carthage and pre Jewish Palestine. One aspect of Classical Civilisation and Judaism which is ignored is that they underwent a massive evolution in thought by not perceiving God/ the gods needed human sacrifice.
Hamas would appear to have returned to some Canaanite past, hence my mention of Moloch.
I’ve made the same observation, that the bronze age culture that Hamas is the most extreme outshoot of seems to favour a god that demands blood sacrifice i e the life force of living beings to sustain itself.
That would also explain the raging hate of jews in that god and its followers, since Yaweh is a god that forbids this kind of ”adoration” and is thus percieved as a deadly threat.
We in the west, I think, fail to realize how much of our worldview is formed by Judeo-Christian beliefs. The Enlightenment, the Renaissance, and even the Industrial Revolution probably wouldn’t have occurred without centuries of Christianity and rabbinical thought forming our psyches, as westerners.
There are of course positive aspects of any religion. But political harmony and a desire for peace, insofar as Islam is concerned, simply isn’t at present one of them. Much of the weltanschauung of Islam appears to center around either conquest or grievance, which encourages violence and cruelty.
Tales of Islamic warriors from history – Genghis Khan, Attila, Tamarlane, Suleiman, El Cid – don’t say otherwise. Their modern counterparts appear to be much the same.
I would agree to certain extent but feel that the Classical World, the world of Greece and Rome have had a greater influence. After all what was the Renaissance all about?
However the synergy between the two has definitely given ‘us’ an immense advantage it must be said.
Why have we forgotten those three golden books:
Erich Auerbach -Mimesis;
Ernst Robert Curtius – European Literature and the Latin Middle Ages;
Gilbert Highet – The Classical Tradition.
That was European Civilization.
All gone! What now?
I think the development of Perspective by Brunelleschi was massive jump in human consciousness. Keep things in perspective is phrase which we losing rapidly.
It was likley that the Greeks developed Perspective but it was lost post 410 AD.
The Greek idea that proportion and symmetry leads to beauty, the Golden Mean, creates a sense of balanced order.The Greek ideal of the human body is that of body which is athletic and graceful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite_of_Knidos
Agias
Pankration – Wikipedia
Compare Agias, a Pankration Champion with body builders.
da Vinci’s Vetruvian Man is an understanding of the proportions of man.
Engineers say ” That which looks good works well”. The accoustics of St Paul’s, the aerodynamics of the Spitfire and the Severn Suspension Bridge are all structures and machines which are elegant, graceful and work incredibly well.
We are rapidly losing the concepts of balance, proportion, perspective, symmetry and entering a two dimensional if not one dimensional world- totalitarianism.
“After all what was the Renaissance all about?”
Coffee.
Genghis Khan was a Tengrist/Shamanist while El Cid was a Christian and Attila’s religion is unknown but he was before Islam.
Maybe that was your point.
Aeschylus’ ‘Eumenides’ puts it rather well.
This was meant as a reply to Charles Stanhope’s comment on Nemesis!
My interpretation of the above described dog & pony show, which only the nation of Israel is obliged to perform for the global media, is that it’s their unequivocal method to expose where a blood soaked line in the sand has been crossed. And it follows that what will happen next is the dictionary definition of “vengeance”. Israel is telling the world, using uncensored visual and audio aids, that Hamas will be crushed, and that there will be unavoidable collateral damage, and that proportionality make sense when you’re slicing up a cake, but has no meaning in war. And, for those who think that Israel’s nuclear arsenal exists only as a deterrent, pray that Iran doesn’t decide to test their response to an existential threat.
Even though there are 50 Muslim-majority countries in the world…even though modern India, the world’s largest country, is mostly Hindu…even though Christianity is the state religion of 15 nations…after 75 years this planet of almost 8 billion people still has a problem with the existence of a Jewish homeland, a sanctuary for 7 million Jews, which is only the size of New Jersey. Israel.
I’m an American-Jew and a Zionist. If you don’t believe that anti-Zionism = antisemitism, then listen to Martin Luther King, who stated in 1968 ” When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism,”. If you don’t concur with Dr. King, then you’re a hopeless bigot…a full-fledged Jew hater. Own it.
For a time the debate in the media was whether babies were REALLY decapitated, as Biden claimed, or merely just shot and burned. That could only be an issue with an Israeli baby. Western media reporting in Gaza, on the other hand, has been unjustifiably credulous for years. Whether that’s antisemitism, or support for the cause, or protecting their reporter from Hamas reprisal, or merely avoiding losing their “privilege” to report, the effect is the same — lousy journalism.
That is an incredible response and absolutely tells the truth.
There is this idea that Hamas did these things because they are oppressed, Because the people of Gaza are oppressed by Israel. Yet we see Muslims in Australia, outside that iconic symbol of the country, The Sydney Opera House, cheering, celebrating , chanting “Gas the Jews”. The authorities did nothing. No reaction at all. Why?
Does anyone seriously believe that this clear proof of murderous brutality will change the mind of a single Lefty apologist? They will always find a way to justify the position they have taken. Aren’t they the good people, after all – ever on the side of the oppressed? How can the underdog ever be in the wrong? Pro-Palestinian activists tear down posters of the missing Jews lest the Palestinian-as-victim narrative suffer the slightest disruption.
Anyway, isn’t it time journalists stopped perpetuating that dubious moral distinction between Hamas and the Citizens of Gaza?
Those tearing down missing posters and demonstrating on behalf of the murderers should be made to watch the film footage David describes. In fact, there are quite a few commenters on UnHerd who should, too.
I would like to believe that might change their minds. However, based on the number of people I have encountered either dismissing any and all evidence of the events as Israeli propaganda, or acknowledging what was done but staunchly supporting the disgusting notion that it was a justified form of resistance to oppression, I am skeptical. I think anyone open to changing their view on this likely did so shortly after the attacks. Those who chose not to empathize with Israelis will probably only deepen those convictions from this point onward, no matter what evidence they may be presented with.
Exactly. Most people would rather die than be wrong!!
Where one has to construct or undertake work where mistakes kill , one has to accept one makes mistakes. A wall is vertical or it is not; a plane or ship crashes or sinks or does not. However, for intellectuals you are correct.
No, I don’t believe that for a second. Frankly, my cure for these apologists would be to send them to Israel, and to make them assist in cleaning up. My grandmother always said that experiencing is believing, and they would do something useful perhaps for the first time in their lives.
As for your second point that the distinction between Hamas and Gaza civilians is morally dubious at best, I wholeheartedly agree. Many Gazans voted for Hamas back in 2006, they continue to support Hamas, they cheer in the streets when Israel is attacked, and whilst they may not engage in terrorist acts, I don’t see much condemnation either. I have been studying Islam and the culture/history of the Middle East and North Africa for almost 20 years, and Islam with the exception of Sufism has an inherent violence problem stemming from its formative years. The lack of a reformation also plays a role, although one could argue that Wahhabism, which has its roots in the so-called purification of Islam by al-Wahhab, an 18th century Saudi cleric, was a reform movement, albeit it a conservative one that influenced the 19th century pan-Islamic movement. Al-Wahhab also formed an alliance with Muhammed bin Saud, the founder of the Saud dynasty. In a nutshell, Wahhabism and Salafism, which share many commonalities, have inspired unspeakable acts of terror, including 9/11.
I wouldn’t even say Sufism was peaceful everywhere. In Noakhali in 1946 by conservative estimates 6000 Bengali Hindus were brutally killed in one of the worst pogroms by a Sufi preacher and his mobs.
The history of Sufi Islam in South Asia is violent too. Many more examples right from mediaeval times exist.
Islam is inherently a violent faith.
Perhaps better still send the apologists to Gaza and allow them to experience firsthand the rule by Hamas.
Exactly, particularly the “queers for Palestine”!!
Yes there’s nothing like experiencing something to change a mind. Also suggesting the pro-Hamas folk try to imagine how they would feel if it was their mother,spouse, or child who had been butchered or taken hostage.
I am astonished by this comment, and amazed it is permitted. This writer questions the “dubious moral distinction between Hamas and the Citizens of Gaza”.
In authoritarian societies, the distinction between a brutal regime and innocent citizens is always difficult to discern. But it nevertheless exists. Nazi Germany, after all, provided us with many case studies in which this distinction was blurred, but it is usually possible to distinguish between a lack of moral courage in resisting tyranny if death is the certain consequence. and complicity in that regime’s brutality. Hamas is brutal..It often kills its dissidents. But please, most ordinary families in shops and schools are NOT the moral equivalents of Hamas even if they lack the courage to challenge it openly. Yet. it has become almost acceptable to say that they are legitimate targets for Israel’s retaliation. No, they are not. That is a war crime. Decent people should be shouting this from the rooftops, not defending it. I can’t believe this sentiment is being expressed here.
Why did Daniel Agari say that the atrocities were nothing to do with Islam, if they were committed in the name of Islam? Shouting “Allahu Akbar!” surely demonstrates that the Hamas terrorists were acting under their understanding of what Islam expects of them?
I think he said that because the Israelis are trying their best to get the pro-Islam West on their side. The theological conflict going on inside Islam is something all Western politicans are keen to avoid. (Of course, whether the ‘peaceful’ interpretation of Islam is coherent and viable is a different question. I’m no Islamic theologian either.)
In fairness (? If that is the appropriate word) there are stories that suggest these particular terrorists were given some kind of drug that day which promotes violence and removes all inhibition. IF TRUE that might suggest ‘Islam’ as such is less to blame. Perhaps others in this conversation know more as to the truth or otherwise of these stories.
The word ‘hamas’ means violence; violence was their commitment before October 7th.
We do not want to offend moderate muslims among us. Now, do we? This is not my Islam, they would argue back!
Their Islam is in the Qu’ran; pick and mix isn’t an option.
Remember the security and trade treaties Israel was about to create with Saudi Arabia. Israel’s high level approach has been to forge better ties with their Islamic neighbors (other then Iran). The sticking point is Palestinians, whom the Arabic neighbors don’t like either (even Iran), but many of their populace do emotionally support. Israel does not want to blame Islam as a whole for what a small subset of believers has done – that would be counter to their goal of forging better ties.
There are people who do dreadful things and call themselves Christians. That does not mean they are in any real sense or that Christianity is to blame for them.
Having said that there aren’t enough Muslims who decry these terrorists and there are a lot of Muslims who support them: one poll said 20% of British Muslims had sympathy for ISIS and 4% would actively support ISIS. Terrifying indictment of both Muslims and having them in the UK.
Good point. I’ve never seen any Muslims or their supporters anywhere in the world protesting against the violence of Hamas. No placards saying “We support Palestine but not Hamas” or “Muslims against violence”. The lack of it says it all.
Fully agree. Impossible to understand IDF spokesman Daniel Agari’s viewpoint on this issue. The savagery shown by Hamas terrorists was entirely consistent with that employed by ISIS in establishing the appalling “Islamic Caliphate”. Somewhere, within Islam’s holy texts, such savagery is permitted, even encouraged.
Israel is more than not breaking any international agreements (not laws) regarding war. If Hamas continues as illegal combatants embedded within civilian populations and infrastructure, then ALL deaths resulting in Gaza are the fault of Hamas and the other genocidal fanatics.The world knows that allowing the Arabs in Gaza to continue to get away with its atrocities is just a recipe for more atrocities. Israel must extirpate the genocidal fanatics from Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. If they are hiding under a baby carriage, then they still must be eliminated.
They are able to mingle with civilians that’s such an advantage.
Nothing to do with Islam? I suppose they have to say that. It does rather beg the question though, of what was behind all the other massacres of Jews – the Baghdad farhud, Hebron, the Algerian and Tunisian pogroms of the early c20 and on and on going back 1000+ years. They can’t have been provoked by the state of Israel. So what were they about?
When I was at school the police came every year to give a lecture on road safety. All pupils 16+ had to attend because that was the age we could get our driving licences. The lecture ended with a film of a car-crash caused by a speeding car. All four occupants were teen-agers. The car caught fire, we saw it and we heard their screams. Drastic, perhaps, “triggering”, most certainly, but none of us ever forgot it. I understand why this footage cannot be publicly shown out of respect for the victims, but it is a shame it can’t be, especially to the young so enthusiastically attending pro-Palestinian demonstrations.
Exactly. It’s too bad the massacre isn’t shown without being censored.
Search Youtube Ben Shapiro Israel attacked
You may wish you hadn’t
I really think I would rather not :((
I watched a Ben Shapiro video on Youtube, that had unexpurgated images on it, much as described above. I don’t know if it is still available. I had to cover the screen with my hand because I literally couldn’t watch some things (the beheading of a still living man with the hoe) search youtube Ben Shapiro Israel attacked.
Thankyou for watching this. I think Edelstein highlights the problem when they claim that this is Hamas not Palestine or Islam at the start of the article.
It truly is Koranic in its horror. Sunni and Shia united in hatred for infidels.
No their god is not greater,he is the most evil godforsaken nightmare,an enemy to all non Muslims.
If you think that is unfair look at the streets of London,Berlin ,Sydney etcetera. They are Muslims demonstrating in support of this.
Admitting this is terrifying but it is the only way to oppose and hopefully destroy it
David – thank you for doing your job. I could hardly read what you wrote and I can’t imagine how you actually sat and watched it.
These footages should be broadcast worldwide, especially in Islamic countries and during pro-Palestine rallies. These Palestine’s sympathisers need to understand what Hamas stands for and what its true goal is. There are too many bleeding heart leftists in the world who have failed to grasp the nature of Islamic terrorism. The Palestinian cause is truly hijacked by wrong people with wrong agenda. Killing jews indiscriminately will not build Palestine.
P.S. Also send the link of this video to the Harvard University students’ societies for their curriculum in the contemporary world affairs.
I agree, just as newsreels of the newly-liberated concentration camps were shown to the wider world, with emaciated bodies piled on top of each other.
I remember seeing those concentration camp footages in the late 70’s as a school kid. Those images of piles of bodies being moved by earth-moving equipments made me understand what evil was.
Same here, only it was the late sixties. A couple girls vomited and one boy half fainted but I still think it was an excellent lesson. The world has no “safe spaces” and it is butter to understand it than pretend otherwise.
When the press is wringing its hands over whether babies were decapitated, or just simply murdered, alongside countless other demonstrated atrocities of the day, you know we are in deep moral decay. The media’s instant pivot to believing Hamas regarding the shelling of the hospital is also telling and chilling. We fought this war already with hundreds of millions of victims. That we have to re-litigate the concept of Jew hatred and annihilation couldn’t be a more stark demonstration of an education system in the West that has inculcated the most perverse and dangerous views of an oppressor/oppressed system that is so insanely inaccurate that it can be nothing more than a cult. How do we reprogram all the young cult members? Perhaps signing them up to fight alongside Hamas for the liberation of Palestine. How’s that suicide vest fitting?
Thank you David, this is too brutal.
The progressive Left were falling over themselves to apologise for Hamas and blame Israel before the bodies had grown cold. They will of course write this latest proof off as ‘propaganda’ or ‘AI’
I think Biden got it right. Feel the same rage as after 9/11 but do not let this lead you into making the same mistakes that America did.
Bari Weiss’s podcast Honestly includes an eye-witness account from an Israeli soldier who happened upon a house in which parents and two very young children had been killed. Apparently the parents had been tied up and made to watch as the Hamas terrorists tortured the kids by gouging out their eyes among other atrocities. The parents were tortured and killed as well.
Bari has also begun posting audio conversations with Palestinians well worth hearing.
I just cannot hit the thumbs up button here, that hurts too much to read. I will never understand the hate towards Jewish people.
There can be no mercy in seeking out the #Hamas perpetrators of this twisted evil … they must be destroyed … they are physcopaths
“A dog appears, running eagerly toward him. He lowers the rifle and shots at the animal. It crumples to the ground. Strangely, of all the killings we see on screen over the course of that morning — and we see slaughter after slaughter — this gets the loudest gasp of revulsion.“
That is an interesting observation that makes me think most of the audience MUST have been of Anglo-Saxon extraction or at least made of “the right stuff”.
A pet dog, in this circumstance, is a symbol of innocence. My own golden retriever would happily greet a monster, as she does everybody, tail wagging.
That is why the great Cynic philosopher, one Diogenes*of Sinope thought that Dogs were the greatest things there have ever been! And I for one agree with him!
In fact the very word Cynic is derived from the Ancient Greek word for Dog.
(*circa 330 BC, a contemporary of the homicidal Macedonian pygmy, sometimes referred to as Alexander the Great.)
What is the reason for your vendetta against Megas Alexandros?
I admit that I would have been one of them.
A very carefully selected audience, then, and forbidden to take photos……
It is strange and I don’t understand that automatic response in myself. I can be watching some horror with empathy, but when an animal is abused I let out a cry. I have absolutely no control over it.
There’s a scene in the Woody Allen film Hannah and Her Sisters (1986) in which Max von Sydow recounts that he had watched an interview during which Elie Wiesel (or some such figure) queried “How could this [the Holocaust] have happened?” Max goes on to propose that it is not obvious why such things do not happen more often… or that maybe they do. One just has to look.
I will count myself in the “maybe they do” camp in that it is easy to find so much evidence of just this kind of barbarism if one affords oneself the luxury of looking back far enough or looking far enough across the world.
Good places to look includes times of transition. Consider, for example, the breakup of Yugoslavia. The killing at places like Srebrenica was shocking, wasn’t it? (It was shocking to me; at first I didn’t believe it, because it seemed like something out of the 1930’s.) But then consider all of the re-sorting of populations and revenge killing that occurred after the end of the First World War or the Second World War. The toll on Russia of the Russian Civil War, for example, far exceeded the toll of WWI. Consider of the re-sorting and killings (by the millions) that attended “Partition” in the Indian Subcontinent in 1947.
One film I cannot get myself to watch is The Painted Bird (2019). I read the book (Jerzy Kosinski, the author of Being There). The book may be fiction, but one can’t help but understand that it was inspired by the brutality of everyone against everyone in Eastern Europe as German armies swept one way and then Russian armies swept the other way.
Another film I can’t get myself to watch is Wolyn (2016). “Polish director Wojciech Smarzowski’s film ‘Wolyn‘ is the first to deal with the war-time Volhynia Massacres. With today’s Ukrainian crisis playing itself out, this raw and powerful movie is a reminder of crises past.”
I cannot comment on the other instances you mention, but as someone researching the Partition years in India, I will say that most of the violence was unleashed by the Muslim League since Direct Action Day of 1946, with a clear game of ethnic cleansing.
My Father was in Calcutta in 1947. He said he saw more dead bodies than 5.5 years of combat in WW2. The vultures were so gorged on human flesh, they could not fly.
It is an awful story…a clear plan of ethnic cleansing by HS Suhrawardy of the League and violence thus…the Labour Government appointed a Governor who stood by and didn’t let the army intervene ..
I am unearthing bit by bit. The Official Report of the riots still remains classified in the UK.
Was your father with any of the army Regiments who were forced to remain in the Fort William Barracks in August 1946?
No his ship was berthed there. Various Indian Army and ICS warned Nehru and Mounbatten of the risks. When the rioting started Nehru ordered the Army not to intervene as it was an Indian problem.I think the original date for Independence was 1948 but was brought forward to 1947 because of the violence.
I think another concern might have been an invasion by the Afghans. An uncle who an ex Commando was stationed at the Kyber Pass with the Argylls.
As you know, The Punjab was very violent.
One of the problems facing the West is that since 1992, there have been no leaders with war experience or being involved with Indian Independence 1947 , Palestine 1948,Biafra late 1960s, Bangladesh 1970, Ethiopa 1970s and Cambodia under Pol Pot and therefore are naive and gullible when it comes to understanding the blood lust and bestiality of some peoples.
I am referring to Direct Action Day which was a year before. This blame lay more with Bengal’s Chief Secretary RH White and the Governor who due to obvious instructions from Whitehall didn’t allow several Army units stationed to intervene. RH White’s memoirs and personal papers are not available online- I guess they may hold some answers.
Why Attlee decided as such is a mystery. Suhrawardy had changed the composition of the Calcutta police by transferring out all Hindu personnel and bringing in UP Muslims arbitrarily. So that once the League mobs started killing the police were either accomplices or stood back.
The fact that the British government still hasn’t released the Riot report shows there is something to conceal.
Of course Nehru and Mountbatten were culpable for 1947 events, as were many others.
The bringing forward of the date was largely Mountbatten at work. Nehru was pliable for reasons of a personal nature which are well known and involved Edwina M.
The botched up nature of the Partition by arbitrarily drawing a line leaving Muslim majority districts in India and transferring Hindu majority districts to Pakistan was an unfortunate and tragic outcome of this rush.
Agree with you on the second point. I have great admiration for many ICS men who held the fort in the tumultuous inter- war years in India. Some of them – like Dennis Kincaid were very gifted and sensitive men. They have largely been forgotten by today’s Woke mobs, but deserve to be recognised.
A lot of the old ” India” hands in both the armed forces and the civil services understood the complexities of colonial administration very well. Their experience could perhaps have been used more.
ICS/Army warned of the risks. What people ignore was that Britain was the largest debtor nation in the World, £40B largely to the USA and wanted to reduce expenditure. The USA wanted to run down the British Empire for trade reasons. The Labour Party had no understanding of India and Attlee got on well with Mounbatten who was good at telling politicians what they wanted to hear. Wavell who was very intelligent understood the problems and told the Labour Party what they were but they ignored him. Wavell would have probaly produced a less violent transition.
Nehru did not want it to be seen that the British were needed to stop inter communal violence.
What it comes down to is those in power lacking in experience refusing to listen to those who possess it. To make it worse there was no electoral liability for Labour if violence became bad. Orwell in his essay points out that very few and practically none in the Labour Party understood India. This lack of understanding has led to The Jugoslav Civil War, rise of Bin Laden, problems in Afghanistan, etc
I entirely agree with you. And if you recall that Nehru himself was a Fabian Socialist who increasingly became enamoured of extreme Communism, you would realise how in synch he was with the Labour Party Establishment of the time.
Wavell was an honourable man. He hasn’t got his due credits in India as most of the historical Establishment is Nehruvian and Marxist. He helped to turn around the ill- effects of the Bengal Famine of 1943 too.
Hope to be addressing this theme in my writing on the era.
Could you suggest any specific references on Wavell’s communication with the Labour Government which I could access online?
The National Archive at Kew would be good start. If you are an academic you may obtain better access to records. Also try Winchester College, his old school.
Suggest readings books by and on Wavell.
Archibald Wavell, 1st Earl Wavell – WikipediaI
Britain and especially the Army was very unprepared for war and Churchill had no understanding of modern mobile warfare.
Sensible ICS/Army Officers were aware that Dominion Status needed to be considered in the 1930s but all political parties were completely unaware of the realities.Wavell was bright, a scholar at Winchester, like Air Chief Marshall Dowding.Politicians do not like bright, tough experienced military commanders telling them they are wrong. Wavell probably told the truth and Mounbatten what they wanted to hear.
Good luck with your book.
Thanks very much
I am actually a modern day ICS person myself. Not an academician as such but have written several books.
You may want to check access to National Archive they are likely to to offer additional access to academics and perhaps writers . You could contact school of Oriental and African Studies, Uni of London and perhaps undertake the work as a doctoral thesis . Have you thought of contacting the English Speaking Union or Tata to obtain scholarships?
An uncle was on the North West Frontier in 1945 to 1947 as adjutant for his regiment, having served in WW2.
What Dad and my Uncle stated took place was somewhat different to what Mountbatten reported. Consequently, I consider your book to be very important. It has significance for Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka , Bangladesh and Burma and to an extent Tibet, a major part of Asia.
Thanks, I am actually from SOAS myself, and had even started my doctoral work, but due to career reasons had to give up. They have an archives done by Andrew Whitehead but again with a Left centric bias.
This book project is unlikely to be popular with most establishment History as it is not Left centric. Consequently the conclusions are sure to be panned in some way or the other.
As a Rankean historian it is rather difficult to take an ideological cast of the Left. Believe in analysing events “as they were” and not cherry picked ” facts” to suit ideological imperatives as Marxist historiography since EH Carr goes.
The problem is to find primary sources. I have got some online access via Imperial War Museum, am yet to explore NAK in detail.
Wavell’s Viceroy Journal is something I want to read.
I don’t know about ESU, but Tata is quite Woke now- you may or may not be aware how their current Litfest in Bombay has descended into a platform for Hamas supporters( Mehdi Hasan etc)
Scholarships in any case would have age limitations, and I would probably have crossed that!
I would love to know if your dad and uncle had any written memoirs which I could access?
Which Orwell work are you referring to?
I haven’t found an online edition of Wavell’s Journal as yet, only exorbitantly priced Print versions seem to be available.
I am reminded of the TV mini-series The Promise, shown on Channel 4 in 2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Promise_(2011_TV_serial)
I remember at the time feeling I had been ambushed somehow, led into thinking this was going to be a non-partisan exploration of the Israel-Palestine conflict, it was in fact blatant anti-Israel propaganda, full of anti-semitic tropes. Writing in The Independent, novelist Howard Jacobson said “Forget Holocaust denial. Holocaust denial is old hat. The new strategy – it showed its hand in Caryl Churchill’s Seven Jewish Children, and surfaced again in Channel 4’s recent series The Promise – is to depict the Holocaust in all its horror in order that Jews can be charged (“You, of all people”) with failing to live up to it. By this logic the Holocaust becomes an educational experience from which Jews were ethically obliged to graduate summa cum laude, Israel being the proof that they didn’t. “Jews know more than anyone that killing civilians is wrong,” resounds an unmistakably authorial voice in The Promise. Thus are Jews doubly damned: to the Holocaust itself and to the moral wasteland of having found no humanising redemption in its horrors. … the consensus says … Jews went through hell only to build a hell for others. Trying arguing otherwise and you are an apologist for that hell.” https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/howard-jacobson/howard-jacobson-ludicrous-brainwashed-prejudice-2273774.html
This consensus that Jews must be held to account and subsequently found guilty by default is evident in the majority of the news media. Back in 2000, I had this same view expressed to me by an intelligent and humane Oxford academic who no doubt had absorbed this from his contemporaries. I don’t see how this mindset would be changed by exposure to any number of horrific films of Jews being slaughtered.
Africa in many parts since the withdrawal of the Europeans also comes to mind.
Many thanks for bothering to precis what you saw into a semi digestible format and all strength to your stomach for choosing to view this on other’s behalf.
A much needed dose of reality.
Why people assume that any rules can be applied and reliably enforced in a war is beyond me.
A question for anyone here who might have some first hand knowledge : Do the ordinary citizens of Gaza have currently / had in the past, any reliable democratic means of replacing Hamas with an alternative overlord ?
They last had a meaningful vote in 2006 ?
A bronze age culture with a Moloch god that demands child sacrifice can’t exist next to a modern democratic society. I hope that this time Israel get it right.