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Do Israel’s critics understand Evil? Calls for a 'proportionate' response are intellectual obfuscation

Pro-Palestinian activists in London (TOLGA AKMEN/AFP via Getty Images)

Pro-Palestinian activists in London (TOLGA AKMEN/AFP via Getty Images)


October 16, 2023   6 mins

After the Holocaust, academics and others tried to make sense of the murder of six million Jews. Historians pointed to the rise of nationalism following the First World War; the dismal state of the German economy when Hitler rose to power; the dehumanising abstraction of Enlightenment rationality. Some rabbis argued that the Holocaust was a punishment from God, but they could not agree on why it was merited. Was it because the Jews of Europe sought to found a state of their own? Or because they didn’t? Others more prudently followed Wittgenstein’s observation: “That of which we cannot speak, we must consign to silence.”

Many historical and societal factors set the stage for the Holocaust. But none of these, individually or collectively, can explain the kind of violence to which the Nazis subjected their Jewish victims.

Jewish children and babies were, for a time, thrown alive into fire pits at Auschwitz. It has been calculated that, in this manner, the SS saved approximately two-fifths of a cent per child on Zyklon-B, the insecticide they used in the gas chambers. Were the children burned alive to save money? It would be obscene to suppose that economy explains such a horrific method of murder. The same holds for sealing people in a boxcar for as much as a week without telling them to bring water and food, neither of which the Nazis provided. Or sewing twins together back-to-back, as Dr Mengele once did at Auschwitz. (Gangrene immediately set in and they died in three days.)

In fact, nothing could explain such abominations. Primo Levi’s distinction between “useful” and “useless” violence makes this clear. Useful violence has an aim outside itself. A thief kills a witness to a crime in order to avoid capture. The victim would otherwise have been unmolested, but was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Such violence is evil, but useful in that it serves a purpose outside of itself. The thief might say: “I never wanted to hurt anybody, but then she came out of the back.” Perhaps he really is just unusually callous and stupid; he didn’t go looking for evil, but he found it. This explanation makes some sense, but does not excuse: the thief is going to prison for homicide, and rightly so.

Useless violence, however, is the deliberate production of pain and suffering as an end in itself. There is nothing apart from the violence to which one could point and say “that’s why they did these things”. The sole aim of useless violence is to torture, to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. It is not evil, but Evil.

Evil (with a capital E) defies explanation, which is why it is often called “senseless”. Evil is done for its own sake, and in this it mirrors, like a photographic negative, the senseless kindness of Good. In his novel Life and Fate, Vasily Grossman writes of a Soviet woman who, prepared to strangle a wounded German soldier who had participated in deadly reprisals against her village, instead gave him water. “No one could understand [her action]; nor could she explain it herself.” That spontaneous and inexplicable act of kindness — kindness for its own sake — was Good.

Theologians have long understood Evil as an absence or privation: complete separation from God. But while mere absence is inert, Evil is as potent and contagious as certain deadly viruses. It can fill entire social classes and ethnic or religious groups with bloodlust, and drive them to frenzies of violence. Organised and routinised by the State, Evil can even give rise to an entire industry of death. The power that produced the labour, transit, concentration, and death camps of Nazi Germany was evidently substantial and virulent.

Still, the theologians have discerned something important about the negative capacity of Evil. Evil has a way of disabling moral receptivity and short-circuiting intelligence. Examples abound in Claude Lanzmann’s brave film Shoah, a 9.5-hour documentary that records the testimony of perpetrators, survivors, and witnesses of the Holocaust.

Consider Frans Suchomel, SS Unterscharführer at Treblinka, a death camp where 800,000 Jews were murdered. Suchomel embodies pure superficiality: a human outside with no inside. He is secretly filmed by a van outside his apartment building. The technology Lanzmann employs generates a grainy image in which faulty video transmission or reception obscures Suchomel’s eyes with a black line, as if to emphasise his moral blindness. He sings a song that the doomed “worker Jews” of Treblinka were forced to sing as they dealt with a noxious liquid pool of decomposing corpses. The song’s message is that the human lot, the lot of Germans and Jews alike, is determined by forces that we can neither fully understand nor control. When he finishes, he says to Lanzmann with obvious pride: “Satisfied? No Jew knows that today!”

Consider also Mrs Michelsohn, the wife of a Nazi schoolteacher at Chelmno, where 400,000 Jews were murdered in mobile gas vans. (These vans were outfitted with a pipe that fed exhaust fumes into the sealed interior of the vans, which were driven until the Jews packed within were asphyxiated.) Michelsohn cannot recall how many Jews died in Chelmno; she remembers only that the number began with a four. At one point she confuses Poles and Jews. Asked by Lanzmann what the difference is between the two, she says: “The Poles weren’t exterminated and the Jews were. That’s the difference. An external difference.” But she “can’t assess” the “inner difference,” for “I don’t know enough about psychology and anthropology”.

Today, the world is still full of wilfully blind Suchomels and obtuse Michelsohns, callous perpetrators and complicit witnesses who see no Evil and hide behind a veneer of intellectual abstraction. Lanzmann’s words about the making of Shoah ring true: “The worst moral and artistic crime that can be committed in producing a work dedicated to the Holocaust is to consider the Holocaust as past.”

When they invaded Israel on October 7, Hamas terrorists beat, robbed, raped, kidnapped, and executed Jewish men, women and children. They also burned families alive, shot babies in the head, and decapitated them. Such horrific crimes hadn’t been perpetrated against Jews since the Holocaust. Yet politicians and university presidents who were previously quick to comment on issues of social justice have little or nothing to say about mass slaughter in Israel, while more than a few students and professors have applauded Hamas’s atrocities and assaulted Jewish students.

Hamas, whose hateful ideology was directly influenced by Nazism, has claimed that the brutal murder of Jewish children and babies in Israel was perpetrated by enraged civilians from Gaza. In fact, documents recovered from Hamas terrorists killed in southern Israel show “detailed plans to target children and young people”. Hamas’s supporters cite “facts” that are supposed to justify the terrorists’ vile deeds, including the seizure of Palestinian land in the 1948 War of Independence, when the Jews of the new nation of Israel fought the armies of five invading Arab nations. But there can be no justification of Hamas’s atrocities, not even in principle. They are so vile as to fall beyond the realm of explanation, let alone excuse. History teaches us at least this much.

In other words, Hamas’s vicious deeds were Evil. They exemplified useless violence, for they were designed to make their victims — Israelis, and insofar as possible, all Jews — suffer in the cruellest possible way. This must be understood, because the organs of supposedly judicious opinion are already explaining that Israel’s military response to Hamas must not be “disproportionate”. We’ve seen this movie ad nauseam: it plays on an endless loop. Israelis are murdered in terrorist attacks, and then they are denounced for taking concrete steps to protect themselves.

There is something absurd about the demand that Israel exercise proportionality in the face of Evil. As Douglas Murray has observed, that would mean that “Israel should try to locate a music festival in Gaza and rape precisely the number of women that Hamas raped… kill precisely the number of young people that Hamas killed.… [They should] go door to door and kill precisely the correct number of babies that Hamas killed.”

The revulsion this suggestion elicits in decent human beings underscores the literal impossibility of reckoning with Evil. If Good is transcendent, Evil is negatively transcendent, exceeding measurement as it exceeds explanation. To try to measure or explain either Good or Evil is like trying to capture mathematical infinity in a finite sequence of numerals. It simply can’t be done.

We must not forget this when we hear “reasonable” people at the UN, The New York Times or the US State Department urge Israel not to go too far in its attempt to eradicate Hamas, or when they condemn the country — as is inevitable — for having done so. Such judgments pose as clarity, but are in fact moral and intellectual obfuscation. They can only encourage antisemites everywhere, and give Hezbollah and other agents of Iran’s theological tyranny a pretext for opening up more fronts in their effort to effect a Final Solution: to finish, once and for all, the work of the Holocaust.

Indeed, Hamas and its Islamist allies are counting on exactly this. They have set a trap for Israel, baited by their Evil. They want the IDF to grind Gaza to a pulp. They hope that publicising images of suffering in Gaza (including fake ones, if past performance is any indication) will stimulate world outcry and justify a wider war — one that Israel may not be able to win. This violence might seem to be “useful”, but if so, it is useful only in the cause of Evil.

If we are to speak of Evil at all — and now is no time for decent people to be silent — we cannot rely on ordinary frameworks of evaluation. The only language that can hope to do justice to Evil is theological. Perhaps all that can be said of Hamas and the worldwide gang of Islamists is that their crimes and plans are Satanic: absolutely and completely demonic.


Jacob Howland is Provost and Dean of the Intellectual Foundations Program at the University of Austin.


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Paddy Taylor
Paddy Taylor
1 year ago

“Do Israel’s critics understand Evil?”
I don’t know, but they appear to want to excuse it.
The BBC and the bien pensant Left seem keen to push the idea of proportionality and restraint. They wail that Israel has a choice in how they react, and that the Palestinians didn’t choose this war. Okay, many didn’t – but plenty did. They voted in Hamas and have supported the years of almost daily rocket attacks against Israel.
No Israelis wanted it. None.
If Hamas had laid down their weapons, there could have been peace.
If Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be a genocide.
See the difference?
So, to those who call for a proportional response – Will you do the reckoning? How many Gazans should the Israelis kidnap and hold hostage, so as to be proportional? How many women should the Israelis beat, rape, sodomize and kill? How many babies should they butcher?
Please identify the streets in Gaza where you think Israeli soldiers should go door to door to murder the occupants and take women and children hostage. Let us know which of the hostages you would select, so you can broadcast their murder over their own social media channels to ensure their families get to witness the depravity.
There is a sense among many on the left that the visceral reaction most have us have felt in the wake of such barbarity is somehow unsophisticated. That the more nuanced and progressive view should be to conjure reasons why Israel is at fault – to justify some moral relativism in the face of evil. How the hell does one confront such attitudes? – Honestly, if your immediate gut reaction, alongside your more considered reaction, is not entirely with the Israelis and condemning the murderous thugs of Hamas, then I struggle to know how to start a conversation with you – without simply shouting “For Shame!” in your face.
Watching the anti-Israel marches in western cities, people overtly expressing support for Hamas, angers me more than anything I’ve seen in years. All the more so as my rage is impotent. These people are allowed to openly celebrate murderers and genocidal terrorists, all while blaming the victims for the actions of the perpetrators.
In any right-thinking society these people who marched and chanted “From the River to the Sea” would be ending their careers as surely as if they came into work with a swastika tattooed on their forehead but no, we make excuses for it.
Our own institutions like the FA, the BBC and many of our universities are offering tacit support by refusing to condemn these atrocities. The FA, so quick to kneel to BLM, and commemorate the death of a petty criminal in America, happy to light up Wembley in support of Ukraine, or France after the Bataclan attack, refuse to show solidarity with Israel after an almost unimaginable atrocity. Organisations who are usually hair-triggered when it comes to offence-peddling, who’ll condemn a contentious tweet as a hate-crime, suddenly change their rules when it comes to Israel.
They and their fellow-travellers wrap their anti-semitism in the language of compassion for Palestinians, as though there is an equivalence. 
It is utterly SHAMEFUL!
Am Yisrael chai.

Andrew H
Andrew H
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

Well said indeed. In terms of what is going on just now, I thought this line from the Quillette article on the influence of Nazi ideology on Hamas and antisemitic islamism was especially apposite: “Instead, liberal and progressive outlets have attempted to explain Palestinian terror as an instrument of postcolonial thought and anti-imperialist resistance, thereby transforming an ideology of the reactionary far-Right into an ideology of the revolutionary Left.”

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew H
P N
P N
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew H

Nazi ideology was not reactionary. It was revolutionary and progressive. While the Nazis’ racism was far-right, fascism itself was a left wing phenomenon. Before the rise of Hitler and the Nazi party, Italian fascists had been lauded throughout Europe and the USA for their progressivism; Hollywood even made a film about Mussolini and Roosevelt was an admirer. Mussolini was a socialist; Hitler was a socialist. The Nazis’ 25 Point Plan is a socialist plan and if you look past the racial element, it would be lauded by many on the left today. The real enemy of fascism wasn’t communism but capitalism.

harry 0
harry 0
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

I am sick and tired of this labeling of Fascism/ Nazi ideology as „left“. Obviously, you haven’t read any of the 25 points plan even though it is easy to find online. Actually, more than half of the content is about how only ethically pure Germans (“deutsche Volksgenossen”) can have the rights of a citizen, all others are “guests” and have to live under “alien laws” (main targets of people to be excluded was the Jewish-German population). And communists and social democrats were prosecuted and detained, if not worse. And the main enemy was communist sovjet union (labelled “Jewish Bolshevism“).
Actually, Hitler himself – about 5 years before rising to power – in order to make very clear that
(deutsch)
dass das Wirtschaftskonzept der NSDAP weder antikapitalistisch noch sozialistisch war, veröffentlichte er im Völkischen Beobachter vom 19. April 1928 eine Erklärung, nach der „gegenüber den verlogenen Auslegungen des Punktes 17 von seiten unserer Gegner […] die NSDAP auf dem Boden des Privateigentums steht“. Der Passus zur unentgeltlichen Enteignung richte sich „in erster Linie gegen die jüdischen Grundspekulations-Gesellschaften“
(engl.)
that the economic concept of the NSDAP was neither anti-capitalist nor socialist, he published a statement in the Völkischer Beobachter of April 19, 1928, according to which “in opposition to the mendacious interpretations of Point 17 [of the 25 points plan ] on the part of our opponents the NSDAP stands on the ground of private property.” The passage on gratuitous expropriation was directed “primarily against the Jewish land speculation companies.”
Mussolini was actually a member of the PSI (Partito Socialista Italiano – Italian socialist party) but was thrown out in 1914 for expressing nationalist views. In 1919, he was one the founders of the fascist movement, which was radical nationalist and anti-socialist.

harry 0
harry 0
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

test

Last edited 1 year ago by harry 0
Helen Hughes
Helen Hughes
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

Fascism is actually what capitalists resort to to control the masses when their ordinary capitalism isn’t cutting it anymore. It’s a sign of capitalism struggling to hold on and being fearful that communists will win people over. Better to go nationalist and find a scapegoat that isn’t them anymore. Seems obvious to me.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

Or fascism is what totalitarians resort to when they realize that Hayek and vonMises were right, and socialism won’t work? The union of corporate and state power (Mussolini’s own definition) can happen with either in the driver’s seat. (Recent example of the state being in charge: American tech companies censoring views disfavored by our permanent federal bureacracy, at the behest of the state, under vague threat of some sort of onerous regulations being imposed on them.)
Or fascism (now) is what happens when the managerial class displaces capitalists as those actually in control, since managerial class floats among positions in government, commerce, finance, NGOs? (James Burnham predicted a totalitarian outcome from the rise of The Managerial Elite, in a book of that name.)

Last edited 1 year ago by David Yetter
Andrew H
Andrew H
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

Hmm, this take would have surprised the socialists and communists who were already being murdered by the Nazis in the 1920s. Might be worth reading up on the ever so subtle differences between national socialism and socialism. “If you look past the racial element….” – wow!

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

Sure which is why the Nazis were so vociferously opposed by Communists and Social Democrats, and so assiduously courted by Germany’s capitalists and supported by other far-right parties like the German National People’s parties. One can be against communism and socialism without talking rubbish. The National Socialists were “socialist” in the same way that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is “democratic.”

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

Lots of Nazi idea have been post WW2 laundered and rebranded by academia and are now compassionate new ideas,like choice in dying.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

More than that: Derrida was a disciple of Heidegger (a Nazi), and much wokery depends on “theory” in the sense of Derrida and his followers.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew H

Please understand Palestinians ARE Semites. Indeed they are more Semitic that the bulk of Israelis who are largely Russians, Poles and Germans. Unlike most Jews, almost all Palestinians have lived in Palestine for thousands of years.. Many Palestinians are Christians btw but most Christians support those who murder them indiscriminately.. Nice isn’t it?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

This is false. Modern day “Palestinians” derive from the Arab colonization of the land. Also, Christians make up 1-2% of the Palestinian population in West Bank/Gaza. Jews have resided in the land for thousands of years.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

No. David Ben Gurion honoured as the Founder of Israel did research in the 1920s that proved that the Palestinians who lived in that territory then were the genetic descendants of the worker Jews,the labourers,the poorest level of biblical Jewish society,the only ones who were not taken away into captivity because that was only the aristocracy,upper and middle classes. Because they did not want to accept his offer to join his proposed new Jewish nation as most of them were Christian from at least a thousand years back he hid his research away in the.university files. The whole of this land was legally owned with proper paperwork,title.deeds, the people OWNED those fields,houses,olive groves. The first Jewish settlers bought land it was when the people who lived there woke up to the stealth takeover and stopped being willing to sell land that the finagling and outright land stealing began.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

Thank you. I very much appreciate researched information but it seems others don’t want truth.. I guess they’re hooked on propaganda like the bloodthirsty majority. And they call themselves Christians!

Darena Dineva
Darena Dineva
10 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

I wonder what you mean by semites – is it people who have descended from Abraham or do you mean specifically Jewish people? I cannot possibly see how any Jews but the tiniest minority would have remained in the Gaza land or Isreal itself after so many conquests by foreign hostile to the Jews forces – Muslims in 7th century, then Crusades in the Middle Ages then the Ottoman Empire. The vast majority of Jewish people were exiled by the Romans in the 1st century after the Judean Revolt which ended in 73 AD. Whoever was left after that was killed in the subsequent Arab conquests in 7 century and then Crusades and finally Ottoman Empire. The Jews that are currently in Gaza and Isreal have only come there in the last Century or so. The Palestinians as group are as heterogeneous as the multitudes of conquerors passing through their land but one things is clear they are not Jewish neither are they semites – their are originally nomadic stateless people who up until the establishment of Israel have never had interest in having their own country and if any other Muslim nation had done what Isreal has in displaced them no one in the West or other Muslim countries would care just as hypocritically no one in the West cares about other groups made refugees because they are made refugees by their fellow Muslim nations.

Last edited 10 months ago by Darena Dineva
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

1-2% of Gaza’s population of 2.4 million is up to 48,000 ..Christians.. are they expendable? I find it odd that other Christians are baying for the blood of their fellow Christians. Actually, anyone who is baying for anyone’s blood is NOT a Christian in the literal sense since such a heinous act is anathema to the teachings of Jesus Christ, who btw was a Palestinian Jew.. who blasted his fellow Jews for believing revenge (an eye for an eye). So, such people are literally rejecting the message of Jesus and doing the opposite and as such are anti Christ. I don’t see how that can be disputed

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Ignorance is bliss. The majority of Jewish Israelis now hail from or are the offspring of Jews from the middle east and north africa.
Also, what is the point of saying what we all know, that Palestinians are semites (semitic being a language group, not a racial categorization). The term antisemitic was coined by a German who hated Jews and created the term exclusively to describe Jews. Every time I hear “palestinians are semites too” or “the real semites” I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the ignorance demonstrated by this remark.
But even by your idiotic contention, given that semitic is just a language group, both Arabs and Israelis are semites, because Arabs, including Palestinians, speak Arabic and Israelis speak Hebrew, both semitic languages.
Got it?

Last edited 1 year ago by harry storm
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

You confirm my statement and then accuse me if being ignorant? Then you explain in your last sentence what I already explained to you.. is this some new kind of Woke logic?
I don’t think anyone “coined” the term Anti Semitic as both terms were in common use since Roman times!
When does a Semite stop being a Semite? Of a Jew marries a Gentile (aka a Goy) is the offspring no longer Semitic? How about the generation after that? This is all Racialist garbage..

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Practically everybody and I mean the people,just ordinary people I live among and am myself (I suppose) hear Palestinian and think Muslim.
Odd really that from my own recall the BBC etc in my lifetime has hardly ever mentioned this. For the last 30 years at least Christian Arabs have been mainly refused entry to live here unlike Muslims who just walk in. The reason given is that an influx of Christian Arabs would destabilize our society. What they mean is all those sort of migrants get housed in tightly packed,tense,dirty,unpleasant inner city communities that are mostly Muslim as most of the present ones there are from Muslim places(it’s so lovely living under Islam you’ll walk across the world and risk drowning not to live under it),so an influx of Christians would really blow the place up.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

I have worked in Muslim countries and found the people to be some of the nicest, most polite, most helpful people I met anywhere.
The least friendly place I found to be the US.
The Muslim women I met in those countries were anything but oppressed. The were outspoken and laughed at the idea they were repressed.. They were educated, beautifully dressed, self-assured..
I’m sorry to say the Christians and Buddhists living in Malaysia were no competition for their Islamic counterparts.
A great deal of misinformation is put out there that simply doesn’t apply to reality on the ground. I didn’t ever visit the repressive regimes such as Saudi Arabia nor would I ever..

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Hint: Arabic, like Hebrew and Aramaic is semitic language. Please take the time to do a little research.. actually, a quick look at a dictionary (it’ll take a few seconds) will put you right. Most Israelis had to learn Hewbrew..

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If Palestinians have lived in Palestine for thousands of years, then why have Islamists hijacked the “Palestinian cause”? At which point did the “Palestinian cause” become a battle between Jews and Muslims? Surely, the original battle was between Israelites and Palestinians, regardless of their religion!

Mel Kreitzer
Mel Kreitzer
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Allow me to share the Oxford Dictionary defi nition of “antisemite”

“an·ti-Sem·ite
/ˌanˌtīˈseˌmīt,ˌan(t)ēˈseˌmīt/
noun
noun: antisemite
a person who is hostile to or prejudiced against Jewish people”

Your point is puerile and, just in case

pu·er·ile
/ˈpyo͞orəl,ˈpyo͞oˌrīl/
adjective
adjective: puerile
childishly silly and trivial.
“you’re making puerile excuses”

Last edited 1 year ago by Mel Kreitzer
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

Amongst other acts of terror, in 1946 an Israel terrorist group planted a bomb in the King David that killed 91 people. The leader of the terrorist group, Menachem Begin subsequently became prime Minister of Israel. He was not the only terrorist to achieve high office and acclaim in Israel. As they say one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.
Also why is there comparatively so much coverage of Israel when there is the ethic cleansing of Christians is taking place in Armenia aided and abetted by Israel

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago

Irgun, the radical Zionist group that planted the King David bomb, delivered a warning before the explosion. Even if insufficient and delivered ineffectively, it still paints a huge difference between Zionist fighters and Hamas butchers, who made not even the tiniest such effort and in fact targeted the most defenseless Israelis in an act of pure intentional Evil, with a capital E.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Yes, so much nicer and cleaner to blow children to pieces from the safety of 5,000 feet.. who cares if INNOCENT Palestinian women and children are beheaded and delimbed (bombs and collapsing buildings tend to do that) and die in agony in their fathers’ and bothers’ arms*.. 96 disposable Palestinian children for every 4 precious Israeli children, but sure Palestinian children are just rubbish – that’s why no one cares!
* oddly, those father’s and brothers then go on yo become brutal, vengeful, sadistic killers. Odd isn’t it?

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Stupid, nasty and bigoted, quite the trifecta. Wars are very nasty, especially to the weaker side. That’s why the weaker side shouldn’t start wars, particularly with a gruesome, savage massacre.
I don’t know how people can get this idiotic. Are there classes?

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Sounds like a good description of old slave whipper Joe and his crew.
Yes,there has been.”stupid idiot” training at least since the 1960s,it’s been sugar pilled for us in popular entertainment,tv,pop songs, books,films. We’ve all graduated to ” think as you’re told to think ” status.

jack brandt
jack brandt
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

When you state that weaker sides shouldn’t start wars, particularly with gruesome and savage massacres, are you referring to the Israeli’s? They were weak (and still are without the parasitic US and UK enabling them) and started the perpetual war in the Middle East by the barbaric terrorism of the Irgun and Lehi. Speaking of gruesome and savage massacres, perhaps you should talk to a surviving crewmember of the USS LIBERTY and get the details of the savagery of that attack that killed 34 American military men. I have. Only a complete idiot would still believe that was an ‘accident”, but after reading your comment, it looks like even 3rd rate Edward Bernays propaganda will work on you. Ironic how both Edward Bernays and Karl Marx came from many generations of Talmudic Rabbi’s, and in both of their own ways, have done more to harm and destroy Christianity in the world than even their Pharisaic ancestors could have hoped for when Jesus threw them out of the temple.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Are there classes? I’m afraid so. Taught at many institutions of higher education throughout the Anglosphere.

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Harvard university apparently holds evening classes for their various student societies on “How to become a world class idiot while sounding intelligent”!

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Who writes the screenplays,the novels, the TV documentaries. Who writes the script. Not Palestinians.

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Careful! Your Islamist leaning is being exposed. Too many fake propaganda videos on YouTube seem to have affected your critical faculties.

Last edited 1 year ago by Vijay Kant
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

The IRA used to “deliver warnings” occasionally. It didn’t make much difference.

Incidentally did Irgun & Co ‘deliver a warning’ when they hanged/strangled those two British sergeants before booby trapping their putrefying bodies? As I recall they DIDN’T.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago

I don’t deny that there are atrocities in every conflict, merely that it’s perfectly legitimate to consider some worse than others and some perpetrators worse than other perpetrators. Refusing to distinguish between the merely wrong and the intentionally evil is junior-high level emotionalism.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Are you an American may I ask?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

It’s telling that you have to back to the 1940s in an effort to find some vague equivalence which is anything but. It’s also worth noting that the Jewish establishment at the time condemned the killing of the two soldiers; when 1300 Jews are slaughtered in the most unimaginable ways, where are the condemnations from leading Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, and most shamefully, among the far left and far right. Nowhere, that’s where.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Organised and paid for by America.
Well,gotta create a market for those lethal weapons. It’s only business.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

You are correct.. most of the gung-ho types here are suckers for American propaganda!

harry 0
harry 0
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

test

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

The Palestinians of Hamas are too disorganized,stupid and inneffective to have pulled off such a coup. It was organised and paid for by America in order to create a justification for genocide which is now happening and most “right thinking” people are cheering it on so it’s worked.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

My dear Jane, you are wrong about this.

jack brandt
jack brandt
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Zionist “fighters”? You mean like the ones that slaughtered civilians at Deir Yassin and too many other places to name? The ones that assassinated foreign British and Swedish diplomats like Lord Moyne and Folke Bernadotte? The ‘fighters” of the Lavon Affair that tried to blow up American and British moviegoers and blame it on the Egyptians (and still honor the agents to this day)? The ‘fighters” that attacked the USS LIBERTY for over an hour in broad daylight and killed 34 American serviceman (probably intending to sink the ship and blame it on one of their many enemies)? How about the Zionist “fighters” that promised the Reagan administration the protection of fleeing Palestinians from Lebanon, only to stand aside and let Mossad asset Elie Hobeika slaughter THOUSANDS of woman and children at Sabra and Shatila in his sick revenge attack? How about the Israeli who drove over American protester and young girl Rachel Corrie with a bulldozer? You going to go along with their excuse that it was an “accident”? Funny how this supposed advanced nation keeps having “accidents” and keeps getting caught lying to advance their agenda’s. What can one expect from a nation that was the fantasy creation of a deranged degenerate like Edmond Rothschild who married the biological daughter of his own cousin, and started the ball rolling by pulling off the first of many false flag war acts with the Lusitania.

Guillermo Torres
Guillermo Torres
1 year ago

The Irgun terrorists warned the civilians beforehand. The hotel was also the headquarters of the British Mandate. You seem upset that there’s currently sympathy in the West for the plight of Israel and the Jews, or am I misreading your comment?

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

There was also the case of Sergeants Clifford Martin and Mervyn Paice who were captured by Jewish terrorists, hanged and their bodies bobby trapped. Is that sufficiently Hamas for you?
What everyone seems to want to ignore is that the Jews moved to Palestine in huge numbers despite the vehement objects of the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world and used force of arms, including terrorism, force out the British and to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from lands they had dwelt in for hundreds of years.
When you use terrorism to displace a people and you laud the perpetrators of that terrorism, you are really not in a position to claim the moral high ground.
Also, Israel has never been a friend to this country so why does what is happening there merit so much coverage.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

It’s odd isn’t it how a simple truth is so unpopular; how balance is so unwelcome, how even-handedness is unwanted. The reason is that Palestinians are just disposable rubbish while Israelis are precious. Surely you can see that?

Kevin Godwin
Kevin Godwin
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Okay. So in your opinion what should Israel do in response to the attack by Hamas?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Godwin

Exactly. Hamas either didn’t think through what Israel would do after such slaughter or, more likely, knew what the response would be and that it would get them sympathy on the world stage. Psychopaths turn situations around so that the perpetrator becomes the victim. Clever. It’s all unfolding as planned.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Godwin

Stop stealing peoples land and diverting their water supply.

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

Arabs have stole more land in the Middle East and North Africa than any other group!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Godwin

The usual approach is to arrest the suspects, gather evidence and put the accused on trial. It’s a system known as Justice.. don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it. It’s common enough..
As Israel is in total effective control of all of Israel-Palestine, with all the weapons and all the power and all the intelligence etc etc I think that shouldn’t be too difficult?
If a Brixton based Muslim mob committed dreadful crimes in Westminster would the Westminster government bomb all of Brixton into oblivion? ..or should it?

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Well, the Westminster government should at least neutralise the fundamentalist training ground and the bomb making factory in Brixton! What is there to argue?

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

What is odd is your idea of balance.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

The good old Jewish one might be considered “balance”.. an eye for an eye etc. but I’m pretty sure you were supposed knock the eye out of the head of the same guy who knocked out you eye. I’m pretty sure it didn’t mean blinding 24* children who might be related to the heinous Hamas guy.
*96:4 is the IDF / Settler kill ratio to Hamas’s

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Most of the dead were civilians, NOT the British Army, who only occupied part of the Hotel, as you well know.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago

If some bully told me I must vacate my home. I would not. I’d rather stay and have my throat cut. It’s not about Jews or Christian Arabs,it’s about the military-industrial complex in partnership with corporate capitalism intending World Governance.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

Ultimately, yes.. you are correct. But the MIC cannot achieve that without terrorism including state terrorism.. What you do is find some brutal extremists (Islamic Brotherhood), set them up against the moderates (PLO) and change their name (to Hamas).. That way you’ll..
1) prevent a stable two state solution (which has been done since time immemorial all over the World, eg Northern Ireland, + ROI)..
2) keep the conflict going and so enrich yourself with arms sales. Ideally you support both sides to be sure peace is averted.
The US set up Al Qaida to keep the Afghan v Russia war going and then the 20 year USUK war going.. Also the US set up ISIS in Syria to fight Assad (+ the Russians who support Assad).. The NATO push to Russia’s border and Maidan coup to install Zelenskyy was the same old game.. it’s all about money! Sick isn’t it? Lives don’t matter, especially brown Islamic lives (and shortly yellow Buddhist and Tao lives).. Be glad you live in a white, Christian vassal state or you too would be bombed to oblivion..

Andrew E Walker
Andrew E Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The Maidan so-called coup did not install Zelensky.

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

The Muslim Brotherhood is the only organisation who has the agenda of World Governance!

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago

Never heard that Israel aided and abetted ethnic cleansing in Armenia. Would you elaborate on this?
Yes, leading Zionist did plant a bomb in the King David Hotel and committed a condemnable terrorist attack against the British army. Also there were thousands of Palestinian civilian deaths caused by the IDF, defending their country. But I would defy you, that this is on an equal moral level as acting on a booklet, which instructs, how to torture and kill innocent civilians in the most cruel way possible. Actually the worst crimes were conducted in a kibbutz, which collected money for their Palestinian neighbours across the fence. This opens a whole new chapter of absolute Evil.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

As to Israel aiding and abetting ethic cleansing in Armenia, I have posted a link below chosen from many.
As to “acting on a booklet, which instructs, how to torture and kill innocent civilians in the most cruel way possible” I will believe that when I see it. Seems to be going the same way as the beheading babies claim.
As to “thousands of Palestinian civilian deaths caused by the IDF, defending their country” is that not the whole issue. The Palestinians, with considerable justification, believe they are fighting to reclaim their country

P N
P N
1 year ago

I’m sure the Palestinians do believe they are fighting to reclaim their country. So what? Does that justify killing babies? Does that justify rape? Does that justify parading naked bodies through the streets so “innocent” Palestinians can desecrate them and take selfies?
You appear to be excusing horrific acts of violence and it makes me feel grubby just engaging with you.
Hamas is not your friend. When they shout, “death to the West,” that means you too.

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

They have publicly stated that Israel will only be their first step, they will then proceed to travel through the world taking it all over in the name of the Religion of Peace.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

2 Swedes and a French teacher have already died this week – what exactly did they do to the Palestinians?

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

People only pay attention when their front door is rammed down and their family is butchered. Holding up a copy of NYT won’t spare them.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Ooh scary,scary,yet another thing to be delightfully.frightened by. We do love our fears and.scares.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

So has the WEF.. and they are far more likely to succeed.. indeed they’re doing so already!!

jack brandt
jack brandt
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

The only folks who have declared to rule the world over their goyim are Talmudic Jews (the chosen people), descendants of the Pharisees that Jesus kicked out of the temple, who have given us financial usury, communism, socialism, and perpetual world war. This is why they’ve been kicked out of over 150 countries and kingdoms over the last 2,000 years, and if Christian America doesn’t realize its real enemy, they will be destroyed by the Pharisaic scourge, just as Orthodox Christian Russia was by the Bolsheviks, and Europe is slowly being suffocated by atheistic internationalists. Israel was a fantasy engineered by Edmond Rothschild, a degenerate who married the actual biological daughter of his own cousin, and Israel, whose first Prime Minister was a former member of the Marxist Poale Zion, and whose first citizens through Law Of Return were former Soviet NKVD officers and gulag commanders, was founded by the slaughter of innocents and by the terrorism of the Irgun and Lehi, and has been nothing but a death cult using Talmudic deception and victimization. They have been the enemy of Christianity and humanity, and sadly, with the sponsorship and enabling of the United Kingdom and America (both taken over by hostile forces), they will continue to cause death, destruction, and war until their illegitimate fantasy land that the puppet Truman allowed is no more.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

I am not excusing anything. I am just saying that I can see the Palestinian point of view and observing that Israel does not have clean hands.
If you want another example how about the Sabra and Shatila massacre. An independent commission, headed by Seán MacBride, found that that the concept of genocide applied to the massacre as the intention of those behind it was “the deliberate destruction of the national and cultural rights and identity of the Palestinian people”. The Commission concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were responsible in the massacres and other killings carried out by Lebanese militiamen in Sabra and Shatila in the Beirut area between 16 and 18 September.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

So the t*t for tat is justified?
Unheard is going to edit the t*t which is silly because it’s not a breast in this context or in bird-watching for the t*t, a sweet little bird.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clare Knight
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Isn’t it termed “an eye for an eye”? Jesus rebuked the Jews for adhering to it. Indeed he told the Jews to love their enemies.. it seems some didn’t approve.. like the majority here baying for innocent blood! And the call themselves Christians! What a sick joke! What a sick world..

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

There’s no “t*t-for-tat.” These haters have to go back to 1946, 1948, 1982 to find acts of violence that don’t even come close to Oct. 7, never mind the hundreds of acts of terror Palestinian groups have perpetrated between 1982 and now. It’s pathetic, driven by irrational hatred of Israel.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Happily Israelis love Palestinians and never bomb their homes, schools, hospitals and mosques, and never arrest and torture children, and never “Mow the lawn” as they term it (it means culling the Palestinian child population), and never engage in “drying out” innocent young men just going about their lives (standing them in the baking sun for hours, without water until they collapse from dehydration and heatstroke).
It also explains why the death rate is so one-sided, 96 Israelis for every 4 Palestinians killed.. oh no, wait.. it’s the other way ’round isn’t it? Do you know the meaning of the term unbalanced? one-sided? biased? No? I thought not.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago

But dropping a bomb on a hospital and killing 600 people is NOT genocide.

Paddy Taylor
Paddy Taylor
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

So Jane, when it transpires that the bombing of the hospital was the fault of Hamas terrorists and not the IDF will you open your eyes to the monsters for whom you seem to be an apologist?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

Better catch up, Jane. A bomb was not dropped on the hospital by the Israelis. It was in fact an accident by Hamas. Shot themselves in the foot, so to speak. Nevertheless, it got them some mileage in the eyes of fanatics like you.

Norm Haug
Norm Haug
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

Turns out the hospital was not bombed, but the leftist media was quick to believe a Hamas account, unverified by fact checkers.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

Hamas are degenerate, brutal, inhuman* savage murderers.. no excuses! They also terrorise ordinary Palestinians btw.. forcing them to store weapons in their schools and mosques!
Annihilating Gaza in revenge for Hamas atrocities is akin to annihilating Chicago for the actions oft the Mafia living there!
* Watching your wife and children die in agony have been blown to bits by IDF (US supplied) bombs tends to brutalise and dehumanise people.. odd isn’t it?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

You final paragraph could also read:-
“* Watching your wife and children die in agony have been blown to bits by the IRA (US supplied) bombs tends to brutalise and dehumanise people.. odd isn’t it?” (sic)

Yes it is odd? The IRA have made terrorism almost an ‘art form’ for over a century. Perhaps you are not in a position to criticise others?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

I AM in a position to criticise them just as I criticised the IRA for EVERY atrocity they committed. I understood their anger but never, ever condoned their heinous crimes!

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

US supplied the IRA too, did you support them?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Not for a second. I abhorred their every crime and atrocity, and indeed their killing of British soldiers. I abhor violence from whatever source.. However, I do understand the hatred born of abuses, oppression, from an apartheid regime.. But violence would not be my approach to countering it. There are better ways..

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

It’s not in “revenge, you moronic creep, it’s to finally prevent more attacks, instead of just “containing” them, which clearly hasn’t worked as Oct. 7 demonstrated. What would you have the Israelis do? I can guess: nothing, or end the “occupation” that, in gaza at least, isn’t one.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Give back all the land they stole and return the water supplies they illegally diverted That would be a start.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

Indeed.. it would also be compliant with UN resolution 242, the Geneva Convention, the rules against war crimes and genocide, human rights law and ordinary, common decency.. expecting that of hate filled Zionists might be a bit OTT however.

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

You seem like such a nice guy.. The usual approach from civilised authorities is to arrest the suspects, gather evidence, put them on trial and punish the guilty appropriately. It’s called justice..
What you advocate, you very nice person is called savagery, brutality, revenge (against the innocent) and genocide.. It’s different in many ways from Justice.
Justice has values, more or less Christian values although Christ told us to love our enemies. Actually that system works very well, surpringly..
Hatred simply begets more hatred.. it’s not really effective.. that is why it isn’t used much now that most hominids have evolved fully into human beings, but not all, clearly.

Steve Adams
Steve Adams
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Liam, the Chicago & Mafia analogy does not work. Most Gazans love Hamas and regard them as good muslims. They celebrate their atrocities.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Adams

Rubbish. I have friends in Gaza who are intimidated by Hamas and want nothing but a quiet, peaceful decent life. What they get is Hamas threats and endless Israeli bombs.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Adams

True.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

How did a bunch of useless misfits only good for.stone throwing and a bit of in the shadows knifing turn into the SAS. The USA Jews paid for it and organised it,and enabled it by ensuring all border defence was off on a tea break.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

I don’t know where you get this stuff, Jane.

jack brandt
jack brandt
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

Weird take, since Israel was founded by the barbaric terrorism of the Irgun and Lehi, and for the last 80 years Israeli goons have been killing babies, raping woman, and murdering civilians. Guess you “forgot” about places like Deir Yessin or Sabra and Shatila, but then again I’m also guessing you forgot about many of Israel’s first citizens through Law Of Return being former Soviet NKVD officers and gulag commanders, the folks that killed 40 MILLION Orthodox Christians in former Russia and Ukraine between 1922-1939, most under the orders of Jewish mass murderers Lazar Kaganovich and Genrich Yagoda. Heck, even when sadistic killers like Solomon Morell and Nachman Dushanski were convicted in courts of law for their crimes against humanity, Israel wouldn’t extradite them (although they themselves had no problem assassinating people like Cukurs in foreign countries without a trial simply on hearsay). Is running over an American girl like Rachel Corrie with a bulldozer, or shooting an autistic adult like Eyad al-Hallaq “justified” to you?
I have no problem denouncing the animals in Hamas, but that doesn’t give Israel’s history of barbarism, terrorism, and murder a free pass. Strange how people are choosing sides and wanting to forgive barbaric acts as long as they’re done by their ‘team”. It’s disgusting

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Look, no one wants your truth, your balance or your even-handedness.. We’re all gung-ho here and looking forward to seeing tens of thousands of disposable Palestinian women and children blown to pieces, incinerated with white phosphorous, starved, deprived of water, fuel and electricity.. and here’s you just spoiling our demonic glee, our revenge, our sadism!

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

You might be, the Israeli’s aren’t. They told them to get out by telling their enemy exactly where they are going to attack. Meanwhile Hamas stops them.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

If someone issued me with an ultimatum like that I would stay and die rather than comply with such bullying.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Yes they did.. it went something like: “The 1.1 million of you who live in the northern half of Gaza are to go south or into Egypt.. You will have no food, no water and no fuel for your cars and busses. Those on life support (lots given all the bombing) can unplug themselves and walk. And btw we’ll bomb the roads going south and bomb the crossing point into Egypt. Thank you for fleeing from Israeli Air. Do enjoy the flight. We hope never to see you alive again.”

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

But it’s not the Palestinians, is it? It’s Hamas, very different. Hamas doesn’t care about disenfranchised Palestinians and neither do the wealthy (haves) Palestinians who go to America, make millions, then return to Palestine and build ostentatious mansions. What did they do to help the “have nots”?

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

They also believe that it is a crime punishable by death to sell land to an Israeli.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Sell? Did you say sell? Ha ha..
Would you sell your land to those nice Germans who almost invaded your land in 1941? Would you approve of your neighbours selling?
The truth is Israelis steal the land, and evict or kill the owners. It saves estate agents fees.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

The dead babies claim has been verified. Even beheadiangs,though not 40. I suppose that’s the hill you’ve chosen to die on, like the good little bigot you clearly are.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

When bombs fall all around and buildings collapse it tends to behead people as well, including babies; and de-limb them and eviscerate them. There is NO difference except in scale: the Israelis kill rate is 24 times higher than Hamas’s kill rate, you very nice person.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago

We have AI and CGI now. I haven’t seen any of these images and I dont want to but how do we know they’re not fake. I believe any of these images I’ve heard about are faked up. To outrage us. To make us shout “kill,kill” and be on the side of true barbarism

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

The story was perpetrated by a crazed, hate filled degenerate ex soldier, we’re now told.. and was published as if it was eye witnessed.. I suspect much fakery was involved BUT it was still a heinous, brutal, savage attack and no right-thinking person could condone it. We can understand it of course because hate filled atrocities by both sides simply generate more of the same.. The IĎF kill rate is 24 times that of Hamas.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

But what I don’t get is that if it’s all fake why are people celebrating it?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Yes, so much nicer to do your butchering from 5,000 feet.. cleaner from the air.. more humane too.. No need to worry that on the ground, women and children are blown to pieces, beheaded, delimbed and then die in horrible agony in their fathers’ and brothers’ arms ..who then, inexplicably, go on to be brutal, merciless, savage murderers themselves.. odd isn’t it?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

It’s tragic that the cycle of violence never ends and never will

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

It might.. there are good people on both sides.. not enough but maybe this will grow the numbers of the peacemakers. We pray.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

What’s odd is your ideas that Hamas deliberately targeting women and children is the same as Israel targeting legitimate targets while seemingly leaving the men folk in one piece kills and maims women and children.
Sounds contrived, or were the men safe somewhere while the women and children weren’t?

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

In order to “clinically and surgically” defeat Hamas you dont target young men. You target wombs. It’s what I would do if I were the strategist in charge. Luckily for me I’m not. But if I was it’s what I would do. Cruel,inhuman and effective.

Paddy Taylor
Paddy Taylor
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

There is no moral equivalence here. Anyone who claims some moral relativism is either ignorant or evil.
I’m not sure which category you fall into – but any attempt to draw moral parity between the people who deliberately murder women and children and the people who are attempting to avoid killing civilians, but cannot avoid it when Hamas are deliberately hiding behind women children, is as absurd as it is chilling.
Hamas is intentionally putting Gazan civilians into the firing line. They want the Israelis to try and kill Hamas fighters and kill as many civilians as possible in the collateral damage to a strike, because it encourages apologists like you to try and draw a moral equivalence.
I say again, anyone who tries to claim they are equivalent is either an idiot or morally bankrupt.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

Or both.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

don’t forget really really stupid.

James van den Heever
James van den Heever
1 year ago

Please supply details about Armenia and Israeli involvement – all news to me

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

Did they deliberately go in and murder women and children then boast about it?

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago

“largely supplied by Israel and Turkey, according to experts”
…and anyone who still thinks experts know anything hasn’t been paying attention over the last few years.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago

It’s even been mentioned on the BBC..

P N
P N
1 year ago

Whataboutery.
“One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter,” has been used as a lazy excuse for all sorts of heinous acts. People even used it in respect of the IRA who were fighting against Parliamentary democracy.
But let’s pretend that there’s some validity in it and Hamas is genuinely fighting for freedom. That still doesn’t justify Hamas’s grotesque acts of Saturday 7 October. That still doesn’t justify Hamas’s sadism and sexual violence, its bloodlust and savagery. That’s why your comment is whataboutery.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

It is not whataboutery at all and I am not excusing what Hamas did.
The likes of Irgun were terrorists and were treated by Israel as heroes so they are not really are strong round when they start denouncing Hamas as evil.
Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, is a flagrant violation of international law, so there is no pretending about it, the Palestinian cause has merit. I know how I would feel if I had been driven from my ancestral lands into a ghetto and I defy anyone to say they would feel differently.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

Jordan was but one large tract of land that was agreed for the Jews, thy ended up in a tiny rump state that the ‘Arabs’ wouldn’t even accept then and tried to wipe them out.
Israel does not do what Hamas rejoiced and announced to the world it had done. The Israelis have given warning for Civilians to get out of the targeted area. If you can’t see the difference, you have a problem not the rest of us.
Meanwhile 2 Swedes and a French teacher are somehow murdered in the name of the same cult, is that acceptable or Israel’s fault?

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

And a.little Palestinian boy was slaughtered in the US…

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago

“Aided and abetted by Israel”?!! That’s just a lie.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

They supplied Azerbaijan the arms and knew how they would be used

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

It’s American and British propaganda..

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

‘We’ were about to HANG Begin when he was “saved by the bell”.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

I love it when the Israel haters have to go back to 1946 or 1948 or 1982 to justify their anti”zionist” views. If I played the same game, I could point to a plethora of much much more recent events, including Oct. 7.

Carol Moore
Carol Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

Well said

Kelly Madden
Kelly Madden
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

“Theologians have long understood Evil as an absence or privation: complete separation from God. But….”

As an amateur theologian, I agree with the basic concept, and have had to wrestle with the problem.

The “but” is that there is a will behind every evil act. Every evil act entails seeing the lesser good and the greater good, and choosing the lesser. Choosing to tear down the greater, to elevate the lesser. 

Evil is a choice.

Last edited 1 year ago by Kelly Madden
IATDE
IATDE
1 year ago
Reply to  Kelly Madden

“Theologians have long understood Evil as an absence or privation: complete separation from God.”
The Jewish, Christian and even Muslim Gods all refer to a personalized incarnate creature as Evil: Satan or Iblīs.
God heard Job’s prayers, even while Satan was destroying everything Job loved. Separation from God is not Evil, it is Hell.
Theologians without a deep prayer life understand very little about God or Evil. How do you understand a person you have no relationship with or how do you understand a person from afar without ever engaging with them?

David Jory
David Jory
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

The Hamas founding document quotes the Koran. Both propound evil.
Saying this in Britain is now ‘a hate crime’.
Tough. Truth is truth.

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

Am Yisrael chai.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

You conveniently omitted to mention the appalling atrocities perpetrated by murderous Israelis that caused such hatred! 70 years of barbaric, brutal, apartheid treatment.
You conveniently omitted to mention the fact that before the Nakba Palestinians lived side by side in prace with their Jewish neighbours and indeed welcomed Jews into Palestine (having no idea how their generosity would be repaid)..
You conveniently omitted to mention the fact that Israelis murder 96 Palestinians for ever 4 Israelis Palestinians kill.
You conveniently omitted to mention the fact that Israel set up Hamas to scupper the two state solution almost agreed with the moderate PLO.. This is an uncontested fact btw!
You conveniently omitted to mention the fact that Hamas ALSO terrorises Palestinians and uses them as human shields. Do you imagine schools and mosques willingly allow Hamas brutes to use them as arms dumps?
You conveniently omitted to mention that Israel has committed numerous war crimes, crimes against humanity and human rights abuses over many decades; that they continue to steal land, murder Palestinian farmers, throw them out of the homes; that the IDF bulldozes homes!
What the Zionist degenerates are guilty of is akin to what they suffered under N¤z¡ brutality for 5 years except the Zionists have been doing it for 14 times as many years! If the atrocities are a 1/14th as bad then I guess it’s about even, right?
Now we have indiscriminate carpet bombing, even the use of white phosphorous!! We have denial of warer, food, fuel and electricity.. a heinous crime against humanity!
I abhor the brutal savagery of Hamas as well just in case any of you think otherwise, you that believe that Palestine children are just rubbish to be binned after they’ve been incinerated and blown to pieces!

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
Paddy Taylor
Paddy Taylor
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Wow – you’ve got some nerve talking about things anyone else might have “Conveniently Omitted”.
How about the simple, historical fact that there was never a Palestinian state. There was never a political entity that was “Palestine”. Palestine was the disparaging name given to Judea by the Romans when they expelled the Jews from the area. Judea means “Land of the Jews”. Many Jews didn’t leave. There has always been a Jewish presence there since that time.
The last owner of the land was the Ottoman Empire. As the empire was falling at the end of WWI, it ceded legal authority over the whole region to the League of Nations, (the precursor to the UN) who gave it to Britain, as part of the Mandate for Palestine.
The Mandate for Palestine was a specific directive to the British to create a Jewish national home in the land of what is today, Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. The British immediately gave the whole eastern part to the Arabs. And that became Jordan. But they set aside the rest for the Jewish national home. So what does that mean? ‘Israel is the Jewish national home’? The only country in the world that actually has a legal claim to the land of Gaza, is Israel.
The Israelis have tried co-existence, the Israelis have agreed to a “Two state solution” multiple times. Each time the Arabs – who only started calling themselves “Palestinians” in the 1960s – destroyed any hope of a deal, because they refused to agree to Israels right to exist.
You say you “abhor the brutal savagery of Hamas as well” yet strain every sinew to justify them. Forgive me if i simply don’t believe you. I’ve seen far too much comment from people like you over the last few days who wrap their anti-semitism in the language of compassion for Palestinians, as though there is an equivalence. Their claimed Anti-Zionism is a tissue-thin cover for anti-semitism.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

Here we go again,” it says so in The Bible so it must be true”. An ancient Holy Book of Bronze Age literature is NOT Title Deeds. The whole idea of all the land on earth being separate nations with defined borders drawn as lines on maps is a nineteenth century notion.borne out of the Romantic movement and the.embracing of the concept of nationalism by clever but mostly disturbed and unemployable young men,a lot of them Jewish by the by,who needed a cause.The land of Palestine was under the power and control of The Ottoman Empire but the land was not state owned. All the land was owned by the inhabitants piecemeal, farms, fields,houses,olive groves. The territory may have changed political control after 1917 but the LAND remained in private ownership.
And I’m fed up with this fascist attitude that any critiscm of the Israeli state with or without atrocities is “anti -semitism”.
And I’m starting to ask why do I have to love everybody anyway.. Hey peace and love man. I lurve everybody. I don’t have to like and approve of everybody or every.ethnicity.

Paddy Taylor
Paddy Taylor
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

Attitudes like yours depress me and terrify me in equal measure.

I genuinely cannot understand how you rationalise your position in good faith.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Have you heard anyone here say Palestinian children are just “rubbish”? You are doing yourself a disservice by insulting us.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Unfortunately you can not change peoples minds with facts.
The Unherd lot only see ‘good or evil’ no nuance on this site (not on this topic, at least…)

Ed Nuhfer
Ed Nuhfer
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

An ethical decision to act gets based on beneficence, nonmaleficence, autonomy, and justice. Addressing all four in deciding to act prevents one from committing evil. “Usefulness” is not a component of ethical decisions and “proportionality” is not a component. Neither is having a reason to enact evil to be confused with an excuse for enacting it.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ed Nuhfer
jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

If I was running an operation to eliminate Hamas I wouldn’t go after young men. I would go after wombs. And that is what someone,whoever,is doing.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

The Israeli response will almost certainly be proportionate, in the way that word is actually used in international law. When the opposing belligerents colocate offensive military assets with civilians and civilian infrastructure (which, by the way, is a war crime), a proportionate response under international law is to use the minimum force needed to destroy those assets. The resulting civilian deaths and destruction of civilian infrastructure do not render the response disproportionate, and in fact, under international law are the responsibility of the party which placed their own (or captive) civilians in harm’s way by their deployment. For example, if a rocket battery is on the roof of an apartment building, blowing up the top of the building would be proportionate (even if the building collapsed as a result). Leveling the entire block in which the building was located would be disproportionate.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
11 months ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

You haven’t a clue, you poor deluded sap

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

I was thinking about the protest in Sydney where the protestors were chanting “gas the Jews.” At no time since WWII would this be a socially acceptable thing to do. We’ve somehow crossed a threshold where the Overton window has swung wide open. Our moral compass has spun out of control. All the other garbage going on – trans people imposing themselves on women and children, BLM, lawlessness – is a reflection of that as well. The Sydney thing for me, and the reaction at the most privileged schools in the US, sinks to a new low and crosses a line that troubles me deeply.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

We are in topsy turvy world. Screaming “gas the Jews” after the incidents last week is ok, a joke video with a dog is antisemitic.

Just like a football president being an idiot and randomly kissing a female footballer, or make believe rape culture in perfectly safe colleges are an attack on women or “misogyny”………..
But not FGM, mass grooming gangs, hijabs or various atrocities in the name of “honour”.
And of course, the ethnic groups that have the worst levels of violence against women…..cannot be touched, because that would be racism.

Extremely touchy and offended about non issues, no concern for genuine attacks on women or society.

It’s a sick world.

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Extremely touchy and offended about non issues, no concern for genuine attacks on women or society.

Exactly.

The ‘Babylon Bee’ offers the following satirical headline to sum up this grotesque stance:

Harvard Student Leaves Lecture On Microaggressions To Attend ‘Kill The Jews’ Rally

starkbreath
starkbreath
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Yes, amazing how eager the Social Justice Warriors are to align themselves with the most brutally oppressive ideology going, one which would gladly execute them for their crimes against Allah. Good to see the pushback this is getting but we need it to grow and continue. They must be stopped, decisively and permanently.

Andrew H
Andrew H
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I totally agree, Jim.

P N
P N
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Social media licences the opinions of the most foolish. Even the most ludicrous or heinous ideas will find support somewhere and so like-minded people can affirm each other’s beliefs. They are also very shouty so get lots of attention.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

We have crossed the line and theres no going back. That was part of the plan.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

Interesting essay, but as the author states himself, the massacre could very well be useful evil. In fact, it likely is. Hamas knows the response from Israel will be devastating and they may be using this to spark a regional war. Now the US will be supporting war on two fronts. I generally don’t buy into conspiracies, but maybe this is an effort to topple the U.S. This would be an opportune time for China to invade Taiwan. Or maybe a third war starts somewhere else. Very dangerous times.

rupert carnegie
rupert carnegie
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Agree. I think the essay should be seen as a powerful expression of rage and horror and not as a logical analysis. It is, as you point out, self contradictory in that first defines “Evil” as the purposeless infliction of “evil” but then suggests that Hamas probably had a purpose in trying to provoke an extreme and counterproductive Israeli response. I also agree that the situation globally is becoming very concerning. How coordinated the various flare ups are is moot, but either way the combination threatens to rally anti-western forces into a coherent bloc, create strategic over stretch for America and leave the Chinese with the initiative in the emerging Cold War. Where will the next flare up be? Time for cool heads.

Christine Lucas
Christine Lucas
1 year ago

Time for heads containing working brains.

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I’m afraid I agree with you. There is a usefulness to Hamas’s Evil. But the author is correct on this point too. For the usefulness of Hamas’s actions is that they generate more death and destruction, and are not designed – ever – to actually create or build anything. These people are literally insane, just as the Hitlers and the Eichmanns were. This relatively small proportion of insane and violent people in human societies has always been able to dominate by conning or bullying the stupid or the cowardly, who form the bulk of the rest of a typical society. Witness the election of Hitler. Or Hamas by the citizens of Gaza (what did they think was ever going to result from that??). Or even the drift to the right in Israeli society.

Last edited 1 year ago by Mangle Tangle
Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

When Hitler was elected, before he ordered the invasion of Poland (1939) and a fully operational Final Solution (1941), the German electorate couldn’t wait to celebrate his 1938 victory. People forget that 99.1% of the German electorate voted for Hitler and his Nazi party representatives. After the war, humiliated and abashed Germans would say, ” I was never a Nazi, I just voted that way because … “. Comically, after the WW11, it was revealed that apparently every French citizen was clandestinely a member of the Nazi “Resistance”.
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Hamas is a terrorist group, but they were democratically elected under the supervision of the United Nations, winning with 44.45% of the Gazan vote against the ruling Fatah [Palestinian National Liberation Movement] party. Today 57% of Gazans support Hamas, a solid majority in any democracy. So, I’m not going separate Hamas from the Palestinians of Gaza…just as I don’t separate Democrats, Republicans, or independents from the whole of American citizens.

Last edited 1 year ago by Abe Stamm
Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

I completely agree. Whoever and wherever you are, if you use your vote to vote in bad people, then you must take responsibility for what ensues.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

Often there is not much of a choice.

Russell Sharpe
Russell Sharpe
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

“People forget that 99.1% of the German electorate voted for Hitler and his Nazi party representatives.”
Where and when was this? Even in March 1933, after Hitler had become Reichskanzler and in the face of massive Nazi intimidation of anyone who opposed them, the Nazis and their DNVP allies together only managed 51.9% of the vote. At the last (relatively) free election, in November 1932, that figure stood at 41.4%.

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago
Reply to  Russell Sharpe

As stated above, I was referencing the 1938 election, not 1932. The election took place in the form of a single-question referendum to approve candidates for the 814-member Reichstag

Last edited 1 year ago by Abe Stamm
Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Yes, if you are forced to vote under intimidation the outcome is always 99%, same as in Communist Countries.

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago

But, Germany wasn’t a communist nation. If you want to discount the 1938 referendum, fine, then you can’t ignore the fact that he was democratically elected in 1932. And, if you think the German electorate didn’t know what they were getting with the Nazi party, Hitler laid out his personal philosophy, his autobiographical manifesto, which was abominable, in Mein Kampf…Volume 1 published in 1925, with Volume 2 published in 1926…which he wrote while in prison. The book became a bestseller from 1933 through to 1945, selling 12 million copies, and translated into 18 languages.
Bottomline…the German people knew who Hitler was when they first elected him. He spelled it out on paper and screamed it repeatedly from the bully pulpit. I’ve never accepted the post-war claim…” We didn’t know what was happening to the Jews…we didn’t like the Nazis, but what could we do?…blah, blah, blah. “

Last edited 1 year ago by Abe Stamm
jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

The train drivers knew where they were driving their trains to.

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
1 year ago

I think his point is fair. The German people were largely, perhaps massively, supportive of AH in ‘38. Your point about intimidation is better placed for the USSR, or for Germany in the early 40s. Anyway, in a democracy voters are bound by the decision, even if they didn’t vote for the winner. So they’re bound by the consequences, too.

Last edited 1 year ago by Mangle Tangle
Peter Rechniewski
Peter Rechniewski
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

You consider the 1938 “election” the same as a normal free and fair one? Alex, please . . .

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago

The German people had ample time to digest what Hitler’s beliefs were, and how he planned to lead Germany once he seized power…from his book Mein Kampf, published in 1925 and ’26, in 2 volumes. This from Brittanica:
” According to Hitler, it was “the sacred mission of the German people…to assemble and preserve the most valuable racial elements…and raise them to the dominant position.” “All who are not of a good race are chaff,” wrote Hitler. It was necessary for Germans to “occupy themselves not merely with the breeding of dogs, horses, and cats but also with care for the purity of their own blood.” Hitler ascribed international significance to the elimination of Jews, which “must necessarily be a bloody process,” he wrote.
The second volume, entitled Die Nationalsozialistische Bewegung (“The National Socialist Movement”), written after Hitler’s release from prison in December 1924, outlines the political program, including the terrorist methods, that National Socialism must pursue both in gaining power and in exercising it thereafter in the new Germany. “
Mein Kampf wasn’t a bestseller until the 1930’s, but it was in circulation among the political elite in Germany in the later half of the 1920’s, when Hitler will building a power base. They knew what he was up to, and supported it.
I personally read Mein Kampf in the late 1960’s when I was a pre-teen…and, as a Jew, it gave me nightmares.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Russell Sharpe

I doubt there has ever been a free and fair election with 99% of people voting the same way. This notion is silly on its face.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Last Democratic election in Germany was in 1933 and NSDAP got 43%of the vote and had to govern in a coalition. Once the Reichstag burnt down, the Nazis basically suspended the Constitution. The so-called “election” in 1938 consisted of an approved list of Nazi politicians. It also was a single questions Referendum for the approval of the annexation of Austria. This was “officially” accepted by 99,1% of Germans.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephanie Surface
Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago

Governing with a coalition of political parties is normal for constitutional democracies. And, in such cases, having 43% of the vote, a bonafide democratic election, gives that member of the coalition the leadership in governance powers.
You’re trying to infer that Hitler was a dictator from the get go…but, he started out as a savvy politician, know what to say to an electorate still feeling the economic burdens of the Great Depression and the extensive domestic and geopolitical detritus associated with their defeat in WWI.

Peter Rechniewski
Peter Rechniewski
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

“99.1% of the German electorate voted for Hitler and his Nazi party representatives”. No they didn’t, you need to brush up your history.

After that you might consider that Israel spent over 30 years undermining Farah internationally and insisting on not negotiating with them on the grounds that they were a terrorist organisation. Having helped make Fatah/PLO toothless, Israel has paved the way for Hamas/Hezbollah who can present themselves as the only organisations prepared to stand up to Israel.

Acknowledgement of these facts doesn’t constitute endorsement of Hamas but carrying on as if Israel itself, – as distinct from individual Israelis – is in mortal danger from Hamas is an endorsement of ongoing Israeli policies in the Occupied Territories and Gaza.

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago

The PLO was a terrorist organization. Rename it the Palestinian Authority, and it’s still a terrorist organization. Hamas and Hezbollah, just baddies no matter how you look at them, will never secure a place at the table of civilized nations, ever. The ‘Palestinians’ need to find a new leadership that’s committed to Israel’s right to exist…period.
Yasser Arafat was a monster…he was also a thief. Upon his death in 2004, Arafat’s net worth was estimated to be 1.3 Billion dollars, all money that he embezzled from the Palestinian people.
Lastly, there are no Occupied Territories. There’s land that Israel won in the 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars, against Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt, they gifted the Gaza to the Arabs calling themselves ‘Palestinians’ in 2005, they annexed the Golan Heights from Syria, and they’re slowly absorbing the West Bank from Jordan. To the victor go the spoils of war…that’s the way it’s alway been. The anti-Zionist, antisemitic world doesn’t like that reality when it comes to the Jewish homeland, and their 75% Jewish inhabitants.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

It looks like you are making this up.
The largest percentage share of the vote ever achieved by the Nazis party was just under 37% in 1933. Hitler was appointed Chancellor in 1933 and then seized power.

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago

I guess depending one what search engine one uses, the percentage of democrat votes won by the Nazis in 1933 differs? But, it really doesn’t matter whether it was 47% or 37%…it was enough to gain a majority versus the parties it was competing against, enabling the Hitler to be appointed Chancellor on 1/30/1933, along with his Nazis representatives, forming a coalition government, in which they controlled the power. Again, there’s no truth to the idea that Hitler wasn’t a popular person among a significant portion of the German electorate when he first came to power. They loved the guy…just Google the rallies

David Kavanagh
David Kavanagh
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

Insane they might be, but not as insane as Western societies.

Christine Lucas
Christine Lucas
1 year ago
Reply to  David Kavanagh

Western society is only insane because people are refusing to state the truth and succumbing to the perverse cults and those with small brains and loud mouths. Here we can respectfully discuss and learn. Yesterday I was spewed with the devil’s language for siting history. Yes, by a very young co-employee, who has “Pronouns”, yet walks, talks and uses the female restroom and rightly so. More backbones needed from the intelligent and sane. And this applies to world politics.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

Yes, we now live in a world where intelligent people are forced to censor themselves for fear of offending a stupid person.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

They aren’t so insane as to be clearly in the firing line to Israel’s response.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

The author mentions but glosses over a subtle but important philosophical distinction. If an act is useful to a purpose but that purpose itself is senseless and Evil, does it count as purposeful or senseless. Hamas may be deliberately committing atrocities to trigger a disproportionate response and maybe even trigger a wider war, but if the ‘purpose’ behind all these supposed strategies is really the eradication of the Jewish race, a greater Evil, then they can hardly be absolved. Moreover, the supposition that Hamas might be deliberately trying to trigger a broader war or a World War to further their goal of destroying the Jews only paints them as more monstrous and indifferent to human life and decency. One rarely encounters situations that are black and white, but this situation is about as close as it gets. What’s truly disturbing to me is how few people seem to understand that and how many schmucks who probably aren’t bad themselves are enthusiastically cheering on the bad guys. Then again, Hitler was wildly popular in Germany at the time. Maybe I’m just depressed that over centuries of history, humanity seems to repeat the same mistakes over and over.
I actually wrote a fictional blog post a couple of years ago from the perspective of someone in 2030 about WWIII that started in 2026 between an alliance of America/Australia/UK/India/Japan against a triple axis of Iran, Russia, and China with Russia invading Ukraine as an opening gambit to occupy US attention while China invaded Taiwan and Iran used their vast terrorist networks to destabilize the Middle East. I thought when Russia invaded Ukraine earlier than I expected, I was spared being a prophet of doom. Now I’m getting nervous again. I don’t like these developments at all.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Jolly
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Who does!!

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Someone read your essay and is now using it as a blueprint along with Orwell’s 1984,the film Logan’s Run,and the Book.of Revelation from The Bible. I hope you write a happy ending where it all ends up ok. No! Oh dear.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Can you give us a few clues as to where to find that essay?

Christine Lucas
Christine Lucas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Ah, yes. Iran, Russia, China, US invaded with no borders, economically depleted, weak military with its leaders deciding which hosiery to wear- flats or low heels. Who could even have imagined this horror show. Academy Award for the Devil and his demons.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Very dangerous times, indeed. I, also, thought it would be an opportune time for China to invade Taiwan.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

You’re close. They’ll do it if they deem US commitments in Europe and the Middle East have sufficiently weakened the US’s (or maybe the Quad’s) ability to oppose them. I don’t think they see that yet, but it may happen soon, especially if all the Iranian-backed groups move in concert to support Hamas in big way.

Saul D
Saul D
1 year ago

The mark of a civilised people is how they weigh and measure their response to seek justice instead of retribution. It is a time for calculations not emotions. Time to think, plan and act from the moral highground, to avoid mirroring evil. Excise the cancer, but keep in mind the need to save the patient and to stop the disease from spreading.

Debbie Stull
Debbie Stull
1 year ago
Reply to  Saul D

I agree….but when a society teaches their children to hate, how can the cancer be excised. Get rid of Hamas now, but in a few years the cancer returns as the children grow and desire revenge. A never ending cycle of hate.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Debbie Stull

Exactly. It is a never-ending cycle of revenge and violence.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Debbie Stull

Which is why if my discernment is correct, they (whoever they are) are now targeting wombs.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  jane baker

Who’s targeting your womb?

Simon Diggins
Simon Diggins
1 year ago

Revulsion at the barbarous horror of Hamas and its callous willingness to invite a devastating Israeli response, and even draw in other groups into the fight, does not diminish by one comma, Israel’s responsibility to adhere to International Humanitarian Law (IHL). IHL does not prevent in anyway the elimination of Hamas – indeed, given what has happened, I don’t think there is another reasonable response – but it does limit how Israel does it and that is how it should be.

IHL exists for two reasons: to make slightly less awful the conduct of war, so as to prevent unnecessary suffering and to focus the violence on the target not anyone who happens to be in the way; and secondly, and to me the most important reason, by behaving in a civilised manner, obeying the law, to make possible a peace, even if, in the fire and fury, it is a distant prospect. It is not therefore intellectual obfuscation to call for Israel to ‘restrain’ itself but the fundamental basis of what it means to be a law-abiding democracy.

That others, in the past including U.K., have stepped outside those bounds is neither here nor there. I was a soldier for 36 years, with service in Cyprus (UN), NI, the Gulf, Sierra Leone, Iraq, Colombia, Afghanistan and East Africa: my experience, for what it is worth, is that brutality, excess and disproportionate violence, is completely self-defeating. It simply invites another cycle of violence and brutality.

Ultimately therefore, it is in the interest of Israel to adhere to IHL, not just by the letter but in spirit too. I do not say it is easy, it isn’t, but it is not just the right thing to do, it’s the best course of action.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Diggins

What were you doing in Colombia and East Africa?

Mark Phillips
Mark Phillips
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

Merc?

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Phillips

Hopefully he returns to flesh out the tale …

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

Col (Ret’d) Simon Diggins OBE
M Phil BA(Hons) psc psc(j) (Late RRF)

Col Diggins was commissioned into the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (RRF) in 1978 and
enjoyed a full career
with them, including tours in NI, Cyprus, Germany and Canada. He also served
two years with the
Sultan of Oman’s Army in 1990-91, coinciding with the 1st Gulf War
where he was the Omani LO to the
USMC. Staff appointments have included DCOS 24 Airmobile Bde, SO1 G3 Ops in HQ
ARRC and tours
as DS in the Army Staff College, JSCSC and the Ghanaian Staff College. During
the latter tour, whilst
running a project in Sierra Leone he was seconded to JFHQ during the May 2000
crisis in that country
(Op PALLISER) and was subsequently awarded an OBE. More recently, he was the MA
to the UN
SRSG in Iraq (2004-5), DA Kabul (2008-10) and prior to his last appointment,
was the Deputy Planner
to the US Task Force in the Horn of Africa (Dep CJ5 CJTF HOA). In his final appointment, he was
responsible for setting Training Policy and Standards for all deployed
personnel and formations, establishing
a joint training programme for the UK’s High Readiness Formations out to 2022
and acting
as a point of focus for Joint Force simulation and synthetic environment
issues. Col Diggins has a
BA (Hons) from Durham and an M Phil from Cambridge. He has two sons, and two daughters.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Wow, what an amazing career, and now a modest and wise elder statesman.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clare Knight
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

Don’t ask!

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Diggins

I think I understand most of what you are saying, but do you, with your vast military experience, have any suggestions how they achieve “the elimination of Hamas” that you recommend, without killing innocents when Hamas use those innocents as shields? And continue to mount attacks on Israel from behind those shields?
Because that’s the bit I really don’t understand.

A D Kent
A D Kent
1 year ago

@Brendan I wouldn’t put it past Hamas to do this but Israel’s claims of Hamas actively using human shields shouldn’t be taken at face value for 5 reasons.
1 Where’s the evidence – have we seen any yet?
2 Israel has a long and sordid history of lying about this – see for example the 187 people they shot & killed in the unarmed ‘Great March of Return’ most of whom they claimed were human shields.. Theyh even went to the extent of slicing up a video of a Palestinian medic Rouzan al-Najjar to attempt to support their BS after they murdered her. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Rouzan_al-Najjar

3 Israel’s definition is exceedingly broad – it includes anyone ‘in the vicinity’ of Hamas institutions or individuals – this is essentially anywhere in Gaza. 
4   Israel do just the same – they’ve placed plenty of military installations & offices in all sorts of residential areas. IDF troops are all over Israel. Are they hiding behind the civilians there?
5  Israel has drawn the borders and refuses to let anyone leave. What are the civilians supposed to do?  

This sin’t to say Hamas give a flyer about the civilians – I don’t suppose they do – but its not an issue I’d take any lectures on from the IDF.

Mike K
Mike K
1 year ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Liar or fool? Just yesterday they were trying to prevent citizens from moving south so they be killed and idiots like you would blame israel

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Israel doesn’t control Egypt’s border.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

I guess you don’t understand that for Israel this is existential. Nor do you understand that hiding behind human shields is against all international law as well as being a crime against humanity. Even Egypt is other Arab countries in the region are complicit. Why doesn’t Hamas allow Gazans to leave? Why doesn’t Egypt open up its border crossing? Where are the evacuation ships? Every drop of blood spilled in Gaza will be on Hamas and its supporters, not Israel.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

No other Arab country wants Palestinian refugees. Poland welcomed Ukrainian Refugees, as did other countries, and individual citizens of other countries stepped up. We don’t see those who are shouting loudly against Israel offering to take in Palestinian refugees.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Quite. The Egyptians keep a lid on Gaza’s Southern Border because they (and the Saudis, etc) don’t want Gazans (which would, of course, include Hamas) spilling their political bile and murderous actions in their own countries.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Existential for Israel, but not for Jewish people. They can live safely elsewhere, and likely quite comfortably. Australia and US come to mind.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Can they, though? Recent events have shown that many in Australia and the US hate the Jews.

David Walters
David Walters
1 year ago

Quite. Sadly it is an impossible task in a territory where the enemy hides among civilians. All we can reasonably ask is that Israel does not target civilians as such; and that it burns Hamas from the face of the Earth completely and forever.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  David Walters

Or under them.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  David Walters

Sadly the Hamas mentality will still remain.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago

They are operating a new and potentially effective strategy.
It’s to target wombs. That’s how you eliminate Hamas.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Diggins

I guess you don’t understand that for Israel this is existential. Nor do you understand that hiding behind human shields is against all international law as well as being a crime against humanity. Even Egypt and other Arab countries in the region are complicit. Why doesn’t Hamas allow Gazans to leave? Why doesn’t Egypt open up its border crossing? Where are the evacuation ships? Every drop of blood spilled in Gaza will be on Hamas and its supporters, not Israel.

Last edited 1 year ago by UnHerd Reader
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I’m sure that for the Palestinians it’s existential too. Except that Israel has slowly but steadily tried to push them out of existence since 1948. The Palestinians are not the Nazis.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago

There are many ‘Palestinians’ living in Israel and gosh they have political representation and are allowed to own businesses.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

As I’ve commented elsewhere, existential for Israel, but not for Jewish people. They can live safely elsewhere, and likely quite comfortably. Australia and US come to mind.

Last edited 1 year ago by UnHerd Reader
Graeme Laws
Graeme Laws
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Diggins

So Israel must abide by IHL, but Hamas is free to ignore it?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme Laws

If Israel doesn’t abide by IHL, is it any better than Hamas?

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Israel has been acting very badly towards the Palestinians for many decades. Unfortunately, Hamas have given Israel the excuse it needs, and Israel is happy to oblige.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

I remember seeing a poll done on the conflict (before the current bout) of Britons views on the situation. It fell roughly as 10% said they were pro Israeli, 20% were pro Palestinian, 20% didn’t know and 50% thought they were all as bad as each other. My view matches that of the 50% to be honest

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Really? But who would you invite for dinner?

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

In the words of the great Peter Ustinov: “never go south of Dover again”.

https://www.tiktok.com/@alltherightmovies/video/7221830732518313221

I’m slightly ashamed to say I’m moving towards the 50%.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Hamas has a larger game plan.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

They’ve already made a start, they have told their enemy where they intend to attack by telling civilians to get out.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Diggins

I got it wrong

Last edited 1 year ago by Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Diggins

Sorry, responded to wrong post.

Last edited 1 year ago by Bill Bailey
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Diggins

Exactly, well said. A sophisticated, thoughtful, and reasoned comment.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Diggins

Thank you Simon for your nuance.

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago

On a Substack thread (that I subscribe to) a supposed erudite commenter was pooh-poohing the reportage that indicated, without graphic visual proof, that 40 babies were butchered by Hamas during the 10/7/23 invasion because it defied ” common sense “…so, therefore it couldn’t have possibly happened. This is an abbreviation of my very long response:
“You discount this journalist’s legitimacy because you don’t like her first-hand accounting (see below), and reportage, of the atrocities committed by Hamas. It doesn’t fit your pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli narrative. That’s pathetic.
I guess you have the right to either believe the on site journalists and witnesses, or not. What resonated with this American-born journalist was her incredulity that people are doubting the atrocities without seeing photographic evidence. What mass killings occurring in the United States, beyond descriptions, are accompanied by photos of the corpses? No one questioned the veracity of this year’s University of Idaho mass murder…and though the descriptions provided were graphic, we didn’t actually see the butchered bodies. Why are the Israelis being held to a higher standard of revelation in order appease the rubbernecking world?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dQjmXLbEHM&ab_channel=CBNNews
Reports of the desecration of dead victims came from multiple sources, mostly from first responders, being the military. If you think foot soldiers from the Israeli Defense Force were telling lies to the media, then believe it if it serves your predisposed beliefs. Photos are evidently available if you’re ghoulish enough to search for them, including the burnt bodies of babies and decapitated soldiers. It seems that the report that babies weren’t decapitated were in fact false…you just have imagine a sadistic Hamas gunman pointing his rifle at the neck of a baby, then firing. That’s what happened. If you’re wondering why the dead bodies disappeared so quickly, it’s because Jews bury their dead within 24 hours, so a thousand graves had to be dug, and bodies had to immediately be transported to mortuaries, then to burial grounds. Observant Jews don’t cremate their dead.
Regarding your armchair criticism of the Israeli Defense Forces and Mossad, the United States, with it’s CIA, FBI, local police forces, and military intelligence had no idea that 9/11/2001 was going to happen until it happened…despite the conspiracy theories that erupted in its aftermath. Then, because we wanted to believe it, though it wasn’t true, we blamed Iraq for 9/11, fantasizing (or fabricating) that they had ‘weapons of mass destruction’. Then, without hesitation, we proceeded to kill 100s of thousand of innocent civilians in what d**k Chaney gleefully coined “Shock & Awe”. We were never given the names of the Iraqi victims, nor were we shown their dead bodies, after our merciless assault on the densely populated civilian areas of Baghdad. Mosul, Basra, etc. Yet, YOU want to know exactly who the 1,300 dead Israeli are, and exactly how they died, with photographic and forensic evidence? WTF!
The Israelis are surrounded by hostiles on all borders…with a total of 20 Arab Muslim Middle East countries (with 350 million combined populations of anti-Israelis), many of which are in missile striking distance to Tel Aviv. But, despite having one of the world’s best intelligence infrastructures, Israel f—ed up on October 7th. They missed or misinterpreted the ‘noise’ coming from Gaza. It happens…and heads will eventually roll within Mossad and the IDF. Who got fired after 9/11, or after our invasion of Iraq?
1300 Israelis (including non-Israeli citizens) were murdered, so far. Apparently, you won’t believe this until you see their dead bodies face up, match the corpses against real names, have post-mortem second opinions and death certificates confirmed by non-Israeli medical examiners, then see all the bodies placed in airtight coffins, followed by video-confirmation that these caskets were buried at least 6 feet down. That makes you a cynical monster.
Why does the mutilation of babies…or for that matter anybody along the age spectrum, lack “common sense”? What does common sense have to do with committing criminal atrocities during war? Sticking naked Jews (men, women and children) into bespoke gas chambers, and then having their dead bodies carted into specially designed ovens by other Jewish concentration camp captives, isn’t commonsensical…but, IT HAPPENED!! Dropping two atomic bombs in the middle of Japanese civilian populations, killing 157,500 non-military people, wasn’t a common sense decision…but, IT HAPPENED! There wasn’t any common sense attached to the American military’s murder of 400 Vietnamese civilians in My Lai on March 16th, 1968…but, IT HAPPENED! I can do this all day, …but, in short, the depravity that occurs during war isn’t commonsensical”.
Lastly, this is something that bothers me about the mainstream media coverage of the Hamas invasion…Question: Why isn’t there editorial outrage and calls for retribution against Hamas in light of the fact that they’ve already killed 29 American citizens that we know of? Answer: Because they are JEWISH-American citizens.

Last edited 1 year ago by Abe Stamm
John Pade
John Pade
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

QuestionWhy isn’t there editorial outrage and calls for retribution against Hamas in light of the fact that they’ve already killed 29 American citizens that we know of? AnswerBecause they are JEWISH-American citizens.
Also because Hamas is part of the firmament of left-wing groups and causes and so is protected by the umbrella thrown over them all. To criticize one brings all into question.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  John Pade

Do Hamas have a political philosophy? Your point reads like a clumsy example of the bad company fallacy.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Judy Englander
Judy Englander
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Superb comment, Abe. Crystal clear, both morally and logically.

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

Judy…this is another response I sent to a person who said it’s “unfair” if the Israeli Defense Force doesn’t respond to Hamas “proportionately”, inferring that an exact eye for an exact eye are the international rules of retaliatory response during war. My uncle was a teenage farm boy from rural Bennington, Vermont when he was drafted, then immediately sent to the front lines of the Pacific campaign. His testimony actually included the photos of the Japanese concentration camp officers he’d identified, who regularly tortured and starved him while a prisoner of war.
” WAR HAS NO RULES!
My Uncle survived the Bataan Death March, an abomination of the Japanese military, totally disregarding the Geneva Convention, that killed 20,150 soldiers as they were forced marched to concentration camps. After spending 3 years in a concentration camp, when he was routinely beaten, he was transferred to a slave labor factory that manufactured munitions for the Japanese army. On the bright side, he was close enough to Nagasaki to see the mushroom cloud explode upward. I have a copy of his transcribed testimony, recorded in 1946 by the Counter Intelligence Corp., when he was 24. He later received a PhD from MIT, and spent a good part of his career developing guided missiles.”
Here’s a photo taken of the Bataan Death March. If you fell, stopped walking, or passed out, the Japanese shot you. The march was 65 miles in extreme heat. My uncle later claimed that the only reason he survived is that he’d picked up a discarded can, which he used to collect rain water, or the fetid ditch water along the route.
comment image

Last edited 1 year ago by Abe Stamm
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

I don’t see the point in making this personal. Many of us here are old enough to have known elderly relations who served in the war (I too had an uncle who “worked on the railways” as a Japanese PoW, another who was nearly drowned when torpedoed escaping France in 1940, etc, etc), so what?

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago

If you think war isn’t experienced on a personal level…then I’m speechless. Just joking, I’m rarely speechless.
I’m Jewish, the Holocaust effected my family on a personal level…I no longer have relatives in Eastern Europe. A terrorist invasion on the Jewish homeland IS personal to me.
That uncle mentioned above………….it wasn’t until he was in his 80’s that he was able to tell his wife, children, and extended family the actual horror that he’d experienced as a Japanese POW. That’s when he mailed all of us a hardcopy of his 1946 testimony. Now THAT was as personal as it gets Mr. Appleby.
If you bothered following the thread, the points made were: 1) There are no rules in war, not even for the Jews of Israel. 2) There are no rules of proportional violence in war, not even for the Israeli Defense Forces 3) War IS hell, and should be avoided, right up until the time when it can’t be. That time has come for Israel, and it really doesn’t matter what the rest of the world think…as it’s not their war…it not their enemy…it’s not their borders that need to be defended…and, like or not, it’s not their retribution that needs to be meted out.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

Why do you think your Japanese PoW anecdote is relevant to this discussion?

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago

Because this article is about the EVIL attached to combat and combatants, whether they represent a country that exists on a world map, or a terrorist organization that is openly attacking a sovereign nation like Israel.
And, we’re viewing atrocities perpetrated by a ‘political party’ who were democratically elected, Hamas, under the supervision of the United Nations. And, if these so called ‘Palestinians’, who elected Hamas to govern them, ever want to be living in a country called Palestine, there are behaviors set forth in the Geneva Convention that they’ll be judged against, as is Israel.
The world may not have applauded out loud, because the results were chilling, but they accepted that the atom bombing of Hiroshima was earned. The Japanese, on whatever warfront they fought, flouted the Geneva Convention, especially when it regarded the treatment of POW’s. The Japanese were my example of what NOT do when warring against your enemies…because it was just plain EVIL.
Hamas is literally targeting women, children and the elderly…killing them without any regard for their innocence or humanity. If Israel used the same rule book as Hamas over the last 75 years, there wouldn’t be a ‘Palestinian’ Arab population left to populate a country named Palestine.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

So, you’re proposing to Nuke Gaza and the Palestinians?

Imperial Japan declared war on the Allies and its armies invaded many countries. How can you draw the comparison with Hamas? You are being overly simplistic and somewhat irrational.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

My feeling exactly.

Russell Sharpe
Russell Sharpe
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

“… a supposed erudite commenter was pooh-poohing the reportage that indicated, without graphic visual proof, that 40 babies were butchered by Hamas during the 10/7/23 invasion because it defied ” common sense “…so, therefore it couldn’t have possibly happened.”
In this connection Hannah Arendt wrote:
“What runs counter to common sense is not the nihilistic principle that ‘everything is permitted’, which was already contained in the nineteenth-century utilitarian conception of common sense. What common sense and ‘normal people’ refuse to believe is that everything is possible. We attempt to understand elements in present or recollected experience that simply surpass our powers of understanding. We attempt to classify as criminal a thing which, as we all feel, no such category was ever intended to cover. What meaning has the concept of murder when we are confronted with the mass production of corpses?”

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
1 year ago

For all those below who equate Israeli actions with what Hamas do and did a few days ago, ask yourself this question. What kind of state would you wish yourself or your loved ones to live in, if you only had the choice between Israel and a Hamas state? That is the reason for the difference between Israeli-caused deaths of innocents (which are mainly, but not always, I admit, unintentional) and Hamas-caused deaths of innocents, which are intentional and intentionally barbaric. Do any of you think that Hamas would become a bunch of Lib Dems if they gain power? Wise up, for God’s sake!

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

Thank you for posting this. I’m also of the same mind.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

There was significant calculation in Hamas (and crucially their Iranian backers) actions. It was to try and kill off the growing detente between Israel and the rest of the Arab world of which Abraham accords one element. Rousing in Israel emotions akin to Holocaust experience part of that calculus, and Hamas has the ‘death-cult’ of radical Islam to help secure sufficient perpetrators to commit such evil acts. But it was still calculated and not just a spasm of evil.
The response needs to be coldly calculating too aware of what Hamas wants.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago

Proportionality is in fact a very important concept of modern, civilised society. Both at an individual level or for military or police operations at the national level.

The problem is with a religion that essentially says no other faith should be allowed to exist, that it has the right to control every aspect of your life, doesn’t allows even the tiniest change in its rules – rules which include fun stuff like slavery, sexual assault, misogyny (the real deal, not the fake stuff that western women cry about), violence.

The refusal to recognise how evil it is, and the need to abandon “proportionality” or other modern humans concepts in this case, is actually least of a problem for Israel. Because they have the soft power, extensive deep state support and US backing to respond to such provocations appropriately.

The real problem is faced by the others who face a threat – and are inhibited by the BBC Liberal types in the name of “proportionality” or “human rights”.
The likes of Western citizens who want to curb massive illegal invasion from these countries, or Armenians / Christians in the middle East who can be pummeled with no outcry, or the Hindus and Sikhs in South Asia who are admonished about “secularism”, but only where they are a majority.

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Absolutely. And in India the destructive votebank politics of a fake Opposition funded by Soros and possibly Deep States of various actors( CCP to Langley to ISI) peddling the line of rabid Sunni extremism.
Nourished by similarly funded ecosystems of academia, activists and every kind of media( UH unfortunately also sponsors some of them) and then they talk of ” Hindu nationalism”.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago

When British media blames “Hindu nationalism” for intra-South Asian disputes how do the Indians you know respond?

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

As biased and prejudiced and also a-historical.
It also makes life very difficult for many of my generation who were brought up deeply Anglicised(perhaps “mixed-up” too ideologically) as we are variously name-called as imperial apologists and flatterers(these are the more polite terms).

Last edited 1 year ago by Sayantani Gupta
Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago

Do they wonder why British broadcasters (etc.) have all suddenly decided to blame “Hindu nationalism”?

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

Reply is same as above

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

Don’t worry, many of us native English wonder at what rules us. More interesting is that I would NOT want to be judged on any of the MPs in Westminster, or virtually any council or Quango claiming to represent me.
The only politician I voted for who has got in was my local councillor , and he is permanently under attack by the rest of the bunch that rule me.
Fortunately I’m not under a Hamas Government. So far.

Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
1 year ago

“Useless violence, however, is the deliberate production of pain and suffering as an end in itself.” BUT “[Hamas has] set a trap for Israel, baited by their Evil. They want the IDF to grind Gaza to a pulp.”
I am deeply sympathetic with the author’s views and moral intuitions about the situation in Gaza – but I don’t think the typology between ‘useful’ evil and ‘useless’ Evil makes much sense here.
The author wants to say that Hamas’ terrorism is “Evil” not “evil,” because it seems wanton – beyond any plausible connection with Hamas’ broader goals. But that’s not right… Hamas both delights in the death and suffering of Jews *and* seeks to use that death and suffering to achieve discrete political goals. Indeed, Hamas thinks death and suffering of the Jews is the most effective and direct route to its political goals. In my opinion, this confounds the distinction.
I would’ve enjoyed the author spending more time discussing the concept of the ‘demonic’ or ‘Satanic’ in public policy – are these categories relevant to (for example) just war doctrine? I doubt it, but it’s an interesting question.

Last edited 1 year ago by Kirk Susong
Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago

The author reifies the growing polarisation in responses to the Hamas atrocities by appealing to a good vs evil discourse. Personally, I go out of my way never to use the word ‘evil’ precisely because of its theological connotations. There is no metaphysical referent to the term in my philosophy.
There are two senses of proportionality being deliberately confused here. The appeals being made for the Israeli response to be proportional are based on international humanitarian law:
“Launching an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited.”
Rather than the legal sense, the author is appealing to proportionality in a moral sense, but confuses the matter further with a diversion into lex talionis. This is where any obfuscation occurs. Murray’s argument is not just a challenge to the defenders of Hamas but also to those seeking to neutralise them; how many bombed children is worth one brutally and intentionally killed by a terrorist? What is the terrible calculus here?
Somehow, we must overcome this; the appropriate response to fears of a second Holocaust cannot be a second Nakba. We must transcend our understandable emotional response to what Hamas has done and find a way forward instead of perpetuating the horror into another generation when it will occur all over again.
I encourage you to listen to this resident of Kibbutz Be’eri: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1AxZG09htI

Last edited 1 year ago by Nik Jewell
Sharon Overy
Sharon Overy
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

‘We’ must transcend our emotional response …., ‘we’ must overcome …..?

Except it’s not ‘we’, is it – it’s the Israelis. Just what is it that you actually want them to do?

It’s nothing, isn’t it?

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  Sharon Overy

What do I want Israel to do? I want them to stop killing civilians and stop creating a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza. What they are doing now will stoke the flames for generations to come. They might eliminate Hamas, but they can never eliminate the rights of Palestinians, who have an equal moral claim to the land of Israel. The next generation will be even angrier.
It affects all of us, too – look at the polarisation on this issue. Both sides are talking past each other. One side focuses on the atrocities of Hamas and the Holocaust; the other focuses on everything that Israel has done to repress the Palestinians from 1948 onwards, now with some woke anti-Semitism added in for some.
Yesterday, a 6-year old Palestinian boy was stabbed to death, and a woman was seriously injured in Chicago. The boy was stabbed 26 times. The police say it was motivated by the conflict and a hate crime. The way we are becoming polarised, it could happen here in the UK, too. Maybe a Jewish person will be first, maybe a Muslim. The media, including Unherd, is stoking this polarisation.
It is not necessary to take a side here or get up in arms about somebody who has a different opinion than you. This is not binary, not a Dubya moment (‘you’re either with us or against us’). People say this is Israel’s 9/11. Look at what happened after 9/11. The response only made the world worse; arguably, it provided some fuel to Hamas. The same mistake is being made again here, and it is almost guaranteed to make everything worse in the long run.
The right-wing media is prepping us to support another war, potentially one that spreads across the Middle East and beyond. WWIII is not off the table here. The only people who win in wars are bankers and the Military Industrial Complex. The evidence for that is plain to see in Ukraine. Have we learnt nothing from the blanket one-sided media coverage at the beginning of that?
Take a breath. Calm down.
A political solution, however difficult, simply has to be found. Because of illegal settler activity in the Occupied West Bank, I doubt that a two-state solution is now feasible, so everybody is going to have to learn to live together in a secular state. It’s either that or the second Nakba and the complete elimination of Palestinians from Israel, a solution that I suspect is in the back of the mind of hard-right Netanyahu and his far-right enablers.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

This is thoughtful comment and one I agree with in so many ways. Here’s what I don’t get. Why does Egypt get a free pass? It could supply electricity and water to Gaza. And why haven’t the Palestinians developed any meaningful ports along its coast, rather then rely on the generosity of Egypt and Israel to allow goods to pass through the land. And why would Hamas slaughter so many civilians, knowing bloody well what the result would be? Do they not have an agency in this? The biggest victims in this are the Palestinian people living under the thumb of Hamas. Israel feels a visceral threat from Hamas. I understand why they want to eliminate the threat. I hope they don’t cause more problems with their response, but why are they the only actor in this drama with agency?

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I’m happy to be corrected here, but I understand Gaza to have been under a blockade since 2007. I don’t believe Israel permits Egypt to supply power and water to Gaza. Its naval blockade has prevented the building or expansion of ports due to strict controls on building materials (which might be repurposed into weapons).
Hamas did this deliberately, in my view, to try to bring Iran into a war. Nobody is denying their agency, just as few in Israel deny that Netanyahu encouraged the growth and influence of Hamas.
Hamas is not synonymous with the Palestinians. The last election was in 2006.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

How can Israel stop Egypt from supplying Gaza with power and water except by military action? Why can’t Gazans leave and find sanctury in Egypt. Because the Egyptian and Saudi rulers consider Hamas and most other Gazans to be “trouble-makers” and would rather they remain a thorn in Israel’s side than become multiple thorns in theirs.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

If the inhabitants of Gaza leave, they will not be allowed back. Nothing would please Netanyahu’s government more.

Leonel SIlva Rocha
Leonel SIlva Rocha
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

And that would be a bad thing, because? Israel would be able to effectively destroy Hamas without the ensuing loss of Civilian lives…

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago

That would be bad because it is ethnic cleansing.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Acceptable in Ngorno-Karabakh it seems.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

No, it’s not.

Leonel SIlva Rocha
Leonel SIlva Rocha
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

The Sinai Peninsula is Large, very sparsely populated and it could Host a “Palestinian” state in perpetuity. Alas, there is no Political will from their Arab “brothers” to make it happen. Even If they did, said Palestinian state would begin launching Rockets and committing Terrorist attacks into Israel, as they do today…

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Given it is claimed to be such a …… why would that be a bad thing?

JP Martin
JP Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

So they should remain perpetual refugees just to spite the Israeli government? That has been the attitude of the Arab governments.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

Exactly, nobody wants them.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

If Gaza is under a blockade, how did Humza Yousaf’s in-laws get in? No election since 2006? Doesn’t sound like Hamas runs a democracy in Gaza.
Gaza sits on an aquifer. They wouldn’t need Israeli water if they weren’t weaponising EU aid.
EU funded water pipelines despite Hamas boasting it could turn them into rockets (telegraph.co.uk)
Egypt could assist the Palestinians, as could the wider Arab world, but they choose not to in order to keep the pressure on Israel.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

Or perhaps they aren’t so keen on Palestinians. They have fought with Egypt, Labanon and Jordan. In fact may still be fighting Egypt.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Or they just don’t like Palestinians.

Mike K
Mike K
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Liar. You just don’t like Jews do you.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike K

I’m not sure if this is a joke, but Nik makes some valid points. Not everyone who questions Israeli policy in Gaza hates Jews. But reaction to the massacre has certainly revealed many, many antisemites, especially those at some of the most prestigious universities in the US.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Thanks, Jim; I’m not going to dignify Mike with a response to that.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

On the basis of what is coming out of Universities over the past few years I fear the words ‘Prestigious’ and ‘University’ no longer go well together.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

TBH, a naval blockade never occurred to me. As far as I can tell, it appears Israel has implemented naval blockades from time to time in Gaza. Although it appears there was no naval blockade prior to the massacre, Israel clearly controls what is happening on the sea. I agree that Israel has done some crappy stuff in Gaza. An imperfect example, but it reminds me of America’s treatment of Cuba. On the other hand, Hamas is a much bigger threat to Israel than Cuba. I agree that cooler heads ultimately need to prevail here and that something needs to be done diplomatically to resolve the situation. The real villain here isn’t Israel. It’s Hamas. Until this threat is neutralized, I don’t see there being a happy ending for Palestinian civilians.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

How exactly are Israel going to stop Egypt providing anything over their border with Gaza? Egypt fought and may even still fight with Palestinians, Jordan fought with the ones it let into Jordan, Lebanon too. So that is 3 Arab states and 1 Israeli state all of whom have fought Palestinians – the common thread?

A D Kent
A D Kent
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

@Jim too I agree re Nik’s comments. Yes Israel aren’t the only party here with agency – and I’d add the Qataris as a state being given a rather conspicuous pass right now.

But however you slice it, Israel are the ones who control the borders and all of the utilities. You only have to look at their reaction to the various attempted ‘Freedom Flotillas’ from 2010 onwards to see that any kind of Palestinian port infrastructure would never be allowed.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  A D Kent

I never knew this. I’m not giving Israel a free pass for its treatment of Palestine, but I certainly understand the visceral reaction to the massacre and the need to eliminate Hamas. The real impediment here is Hamas. Israel is not a colonizer. It is a small nation with existential threats all around it.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  A D Kent

I wonder why Port Infrastructure would not be allowed 😉

Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

There is a kind of inevitable fate about what is now happening. It is totally unrealistic to expect no reaction to the atrocities committed last week. Hamas had the opportunity to release the hostages. They chose not to. The situation cannot continue nor revert to the way it was.
I suspect this will now play out for a few years – with much suffering – and when the time comes Netanyahu will be cast out and a unity government formed. Sometimes the situation has to get worse before a solution can finally be found.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Anderson

I think Netanyahu will be gone sooner than that. Most Israelis detest him. A few think he let this happen, many blame him for dropping the ball, and most understand that he encouraged the growth and influence of Hamas. That’s despite the other hot water he is in, politically and legally.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nik Jewell
Phineas
Phineas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Anderson

Very well put. Jane. Hamas is killing Paletinian civilians and lying that they are being killed by Israel.Of course it will not release hostages Has the UN asked them to? No, it instead tells Israel not to kill Palestian citizens. Those who refuse to utterly condemn Hamas, like the UN, are at fault.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Anderson

Sometimes the only solution is outright victory. The bad news is, that Israel is simply the main focus of these religious fanatics. Africa is plagued by them, but we don’t get to hear that much of what they do there.
When was the last time the Israelis attacked a UK concert arena?

Last edited 1 year ago by Bill Bailey
Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

How do you treat with people that want to see you and your children killed regardless of whatever concessions you give them?

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Very difficult. This is Hamas, though, not Palestinians in general. 50% of the inhabitants of Gaza are children. They didn’t vote for Hamas in 2006. Note that there are extremists on both sides. Remember the assassination of Rabin; check out ‘price tag attacks’.

Russell Sharpe
Russell Sharpe
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

“50% of the inhabitants of Gaza are children. They didn’t vote for Hamas in 2006”
Indeed. And they have been raised by Hamas to believe that the Jews are all devils.

Alison Wren
Alison Wren
1 year ago
Reply to  Russell Sharpe

I do wonder how much pressure was placed on Palestinians to vote for Hamas back all those years ago. And, if voting is not compulsory, how many women actually voted for them. Maybe I’m too naive but i cant imagine that Palestinian women were all overjoyed with the murder of babies and rape and murder of however many women that was done to.

John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago
Reply to  Alison Wren

Unfortunately I think you will find that (tribal) women are capable of being more cruel and brutal than the males, just as female concentration camp guards could be worse than the males. No, I don’t have evidence, but the reaction ‘surely women would not do that’ is spurious. Actually, on reflection, I seem to recall that in Afghanistan the tribal women were considered utterly inhuman.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Alison Wren

When an NHS female clinician rejoices over it, one has to wonder at what this religion does to people
Hopefully somewhere in Gaza are women who have some humanity.
Like the Irish nationalist women who weren’t prepared to abuse the bodies of the two undercover soldiers who were beaten to death, aware they were some mothers’ sons. But that takes a courage I’m not sure I could find in a similar situation and I could well understand the silence of Gaza women with Hamas around.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Their parents did, though.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

“The way we are becoming polarised”
“This is not binary”
“right-wing media”
“hard-right”
“far-right”
It’s too much to expect self-awareness from a progressive but thank you for the laugh. A little awareness of Israel’s history would interfere with your desire to demonise the “far-right” (a never-ending Brown Scare). All those Israeli progressives and socialists who created the modern Jewish state, at the expense of the Palestinians, would’ve been surprised to learn they were “far-right”.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

I would describe myself as a classical liberal if I had to use a label. My politics is issue-based. I think the majority of people would describe the bulk of my views as socially conservative.
I’ve been interested in Israel-Palestine for most of my life, so I don’t need any lessons on history thank you.
Quite what you think about why my knowledge of history matters when describing the composition of Netanyahu’s government is not clear to me.
Likud, is a right-wing party. United Torah Judaism and Shas are religious Zionist parties. The Religious Zionist Party is a right-wing religious party. Otzma Yehudit and Noam are far-right parties.
‘Right-wing media’ – have you seen the coverage in The Daily Telegraph (I’m a subscriber) and the Daily Mail? How about The Daily Sceptic, Spiked and Unherd (all of which I subscribe to)?
The DT and DM are having a meltdown because the BBC won’t use the language they want them to use.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Israeli leftists have pointed out that Bibi’s rhetoric attracts more opprobrium than the far worse acts of previous, leftwing Israeli administrations. Nevertheless, it’s so much easier to just blame the white people racism capitalism patriarchy religion right wing Jews transphobes (delete as necessary).
As a Telegraph subscriber do you have access to their obituary of Ovadia Yosef? IIRC they didn’t mention he affirmed that non-Jews aren’t human.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

Archive if you want to read it: https://archive.ph/SEsiE

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

I wouldn’t call the Daily Mail right wing. It presents both sides. The problem with the media is you have to seek out alternative views. The so-called trusted, traditional media are almost entirely progressive. And unfortunately, they still have influence on casual media consumers.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

Nik seems like a thoughtful, reasonable commenter unlike yourself.

Mark Phillips
Mark Phillips
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

“A political solution, however difficult, simply has to be found.”
How do you reach a political solution with a single purpose entity. One whose sole purpose is the eradication of the Jew from the face of the earth? Nothing more, nothing less. As for the ‘right wing media’ you are babbling about; to which ‘right wing media’ outlets are you referring?

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Phillips

See my response to Albert on the right-wing outlets.
What is your solution? What is the endgame? Where do you think we’re going to be in a year?

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

The flames don’t need stoking by Israel. Islamic fundamentalism manages that well enough on its own. What had Gaza to do with Manchester Arena? Or the French teacher who was killed this week? The list of such things goes on and on, in fact Africa is full of atrocities and we hardly hear of them in the West.

Archibald Tennyson
Archibald Tennyson
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

You never use the word “Evil”, even to describe the murder of innocent babies?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

By which side? Unfortunately there are more dead Palestinian children than Israeli ones after a weeks conflict so which side are good and which is evil? Personally I think evil applies to both

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Because you obviously don’t understand the nature of evil. Hamas’ actions were evil because they purposefully performed evil acts (the killing, raping, beheading of women and children) that have not been witnessed in the West in quite this way since medieval times.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Is dropping a bomb on a building you know to be full of civilians not an evil act, even if it serves a purpose of killing a couple of terrorists?
I’m not defending the actions of Hamas, I think they’re disgusting but I don’t believe it was pointless violence that the author implies. Serial killers such as Dennis Nilsen indulge in pointless evil, actions done purely for their own ends. The Hamas attacks were terrorism, designed to cause fear amongst the Israelis, get Israel to indulge in retaliatory strikes (and thus lose any sympathy the world originally had) and scupper any deals between Israel and the Saudis

Francisco Javier Bernal
Francisco Javier Bernal
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

“Roof knocking” from the IDF is more than any other army would do in the same situation. Even before roof knocking, civilians living in the building wpuld received several warnings, including phone calls and messages to all active mobiles and landlines in the area, informing them of the imminent strike, before “a preliminary roof-knocking strike” is delivered. The crime here is Hamas embedding themselves in civilian areas. It would not be the first time they place rocket launchers on schools. Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation is indeed antisemitism.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

Where else can Hamas be? Gaza is smaller in size than the Isle of Wight, and has 2 million people living there. It’s surrounded by walls and heavily armed borders, and has no defence against Israeli air strikes. Where else can Hamas be except built up areas?

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

They could let the civilians leave the areas Israel has said it is going to attack.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

But there’s more to Gaza than Gaza city.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Not much..

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Moral equivalence at its finest. Can’t you tell the difference of bombings by the IDF where the inhabitants are always warned and given time to clear out, with Hamas going and deliberately mowing down women and children. Further, don’t forget that Hamas uses women and children as human shields and stations their headquarters and rocket launching sites either under or on top, respectively, of schools and hospitals.

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Between 1940 and 1945 the RAF dropped thousands of tons of bombs, both HE and incendiary, on German cities. The killing of non-combatants wasn’t the desired goal but it was inevitable.
Do we say that Bomber Command was evil because it burned babies, or that it did a dirty but necessary deed to avert worse evil?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  D Glover

The Bishop of Chichester thought so, and Churchill rather disgracefully ‘dumped’ Bomber Command and ‘Bomber’ Harris at the end.*

(*No separate Campaign Medal etc.)

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago

O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that,
and Tommy go away,
but it’s Thank You Mr Atkins when the band begins to play!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Isn’t it odd that our bombers were all heroes including those who bombed Dresden but the German bombers were all horrible killers?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  D Glover

The bombing of Dresden with incendaries was in no way necessary. It was a heinous war crime! Had the Germans won those responsibly would be right executed for that horrible murder of the innocent..

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago

Reread my post. I avoid this word because of its religious connotations, as this essay evidences.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Exactly, it’s a tricky word that gets bandied around but is there any other?

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

…and find a way forward instead…

So that’ll be yet another peace conference then – with bad faith on the Hamas/Hezbollah side, Iran as puppet masters and the increasingly anti-semite UN bestowing its dubious blessing.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  N Satori

Your alternative to a peace conference is…?

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Hit the enemy so hard that they desperately sue for peace. If they are terrorists and murderers do not negotiate with them as though they were equals acting in good faith. If they are irredeemably fanatical the only solution may be to completely destroy their ability to wage war (ref. 3rd Reich, Imperial Japan)
Compromise solutions always look good in theory and naturally appeal to those of a pacifist inclination who can’t get past the “war is madness” viewpoint.
Take a look back at the Vietnam war and how the peace negotiations were manipulated by the communist North while in the US the anti-war movement was urging compromise, compromise. The unfortunate South Vietnamese (remember them?) were eventually abandoned to communist tyranny as the good faith of the North proved to be an utter sham.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  N Satori

I don’t think you understand Hamas or the concept of martyrdom. They want this reaction; they don’t fear it.

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Difficult not to understand the concept of martyrdom as we have been hearing all about it since the earliest Muslim suicide attacks decades ago.
Anyway, I think you skipped over this bit in my comment:

If they are irredeemably fanatical the only solution may be to completely destroy their ability to wage war

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  N Satori

That is certainly Israel’s intention, but human beings are ingenious; more weapons will be found to wage another war in the future.
I think you are missing something too. Palestinians have just as much right to the land of Israel as Israelis do. Many would argue that they have a greater right – they had possession, it was promised to them by the British during WWI, largely taken from them in the 1948 Nakba, and stolen more and more ever since. We are happy to maintain that Israel has a right to defend itself. Why do Palestinians not have a right to defend themselves?
The response to this is almost always Golda Meir’s, which may be accurate, but does not resolve the central issue.

Francisco Javier Bernal
Francisco Javier Bernal
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Transjordan, so-called because of its position on the east side of the Jordan River, was originally part of the British Mandate for Palestine created at the San Remo Conference in 1920. That mandate had recognized the Balfour Declaration, which envisioned that a Jewish national home would be created in all of Palestine. Churchill had no right to steal 70 plus percent of what was to become Israel to create an artificial kingdom to please Abdullah.

Andrew H
Andrew H
1 year ago

An absolutely fantastic article in every respect. I could quote almost all of it but right now I’ll go with this one: “Israelis are murdered in terrorist attacks, and then they are denounced for taking concrete steps to protect themselves.”

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew H

Yep, it’s a catch 22

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

The principle of proportionality surely means, doing no more than is necessary to secure your legitimate objectives. Thus, you do not kill your enemy if he offers to surrender because his surrender is sufficient for your purposes.
So then we ask, what is necessary to ensure that Hamas never again contemplates such an act of terrorism against Israel? Regrettably, the answer may be: Nothing less than ruthless military action, inflicting utter devastation on Hamas and the people who vote it into power, because nothing less will suffice to secure Israel’s legitimate objectives.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

There is no ‘principle of proportionality’ when your enemy comes with the intention to, and does, murder women and children in the bestial manner they did it. The only principle is “What can my conscience stand.”
Fortunately it seems the Israeli conscience won’t stand deliberate murder of women and children. Though given Hamas attitude, perhaps it should be called ‘martyring’ for that is the intention of Hamas it seems OR perhaps they are just using their women and children as shields. A hesitation on the part of an Israeli soldier may well mean a dead Israeli soldier.
I’m amazed that any believer in God in the Islamic world doesn’t think Hamas Satanic.
Better hope they never get power in the West. There won’t be many survivors from the writers, broadcasters or actors should an ‘Ayatollah Ted’ ever hit the airwaves.

P N
P N
1 year ago

It’s easy to sit in the comfort of our armchairs and call for “restraint” when we pay no price for Hamas’s savagery. Calls for restraint or peace after one side has been attacked reduces the costs of launching such an attack. Hamas can attack Israel at will, murder, torture and kidnap its women and children, rape them and parade their dead bodies naked through the streets whilst “innocent” Palestinians desecrate their bodies and take selfies safe in the knowledge that the international community of bien pensants, immune from such violence, will call for “restraint” or a “proportionate” response.
Before the age of the international community or world opinion, countries which were attacked as Israel has been would annihilate their enemy and that would be the end of it.
If America had retaliated with a proportionate response after Pearl Harbour and merely bombed a single Japanese harbour before withdrawing, do you think that would have ended the war in the Pacific and Japan would be the peaceful and prosperous nation it is today? No. Japan paid a heavy price for its belligerence and then chose a different path.
Hamas cannot be negotiated with. It seeks the destruction of Israel. There is no middle ground for them. But it is “restraint” and a “proportionate response” that incentivises Hamas to continue its battle, safe in the knowledge that it cannot be wiped out. The Palestinians themselves could get rid of Hamas and choose a path of peace but they don’t.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

They’re too cowardly to overthrow their overlords.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 year ago

I don’t recall hearing a lot of calls for ‘restraint’ or a ‘proportionate response’ after 9/11. A significant number of Americans might well have supported a nuclear strike and had the government had a clearer idea of where the enemy was, they might have done it. Any American who criticizes Israel for disproportionate retribution is very likely a hypocrite at best and more likely a total idiot. What happened to Israel is by almost any account far worse than 9/11, and I suspect when the dust settles, the death toll will be a lot higher.

A bit of historical context here to further the author’s excellent points. The author briefly mentioned the Israeli War of Independence in 1948. What should be noted is that this isn’t the beginning of the story. The Zionist movement began much earlier, in the late 19th century, as a cause among the Jews of Europe, who began legally buying, not stealing, not seizing, not conquering, unoccupied or pastoral lands from the Ottoman Empire, and after WWI, the British who administered the territory under a League of Nations mandate. Most of what they bought was largely unused, undeveloped, and sparsely populated. hen after WWII, in the wake of the Holocaust, support for a Jewish homeland reached its zenith, and the UN proposed a partition of the former British protectorate of Palestine into two states based on majoritarianism and self-determination. The Jewish leaders of Israel accepted this compromise. The Arab leaders did not, and decided to try to take by force what had been given to the Jews, despite the fact that so many Jews had embraced the Zionist movement that the areas to be included in the new Israeli state were already majority Jewish. So, basically, the horrible injustice Palestinians resent so strongly as to use it as a justification for mass murder, terrorism, and atrocities as unspeakable as those of the Nazis is…. legal immigration. How horrible of them. The Palestinians can’t really even legitimately blame ‘the west’ as it was the Ottomans who allowed the first Jewish settlers.

It’s been over seventy years, and the situation remains exactly as it was in 1948. The Israelis have always accepted that Palestine has a right to exist, but the Palestinians have never reciprocated. There can never be a peaceful two state solution while one state persistently pursues the eradication of the other even at the expense of its own citizens and their well being. I don’t know what the long term solution is. Perhaps Egypt could re-occupy Gaza and get things under control. They would at least be a sane, rational negotiator, but judging by their response so far, they probably want nothing to do with the situation. I’m at a loss for what to do at this point, but that’s the nature of Evil. Most people are decent folks minding their own business. We seldom encounter true Evil and we don’t understand it or know what to do about it when we do.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Jolly
Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Perhaps that is why the Palestinians have the ‘Death Penalty” for selling land to an Israeli? More interesting was the fact that the mass of foreign funded NGOs continually attacking Israeli Government policy were exposed when one of them, a famous ‘peacenik’ was secretly filmed arranging to deliver into Palestinian hands a Palestinian who had sold land to an Israeli.
The Western apologists for the Islamists won’t go away, they won’t listen, ‘mine enemies enemy’ seems to be their mindset. They hate the West.
Perhaps one day when the West has to face up to the reality that parts of Africa and Israel experience, they may be the ones cowering from Islamic Jihadists & crying out for help.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

I know of NO apologists for Islamists, myself included.. But we Christians do reserve the right to speak out against the gross evils* perpetrate on innocent Palestinians, men women and esp children (and innocent Israeli victims too!).
* Bombing of homes, schools, hospitals and mosques.. murdering tens of thousands of innocent people (25 tumes as many as Islamists)!
Land theft, drying out (look it up), “mowing the lawn” (Child culling), target practice, imprisoning, torturing and sexually abusing children.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

You’re giving terms like imbalance, distortion, bias and willful omission a bad name! Please rewrite your piece with a lot more balance, a lot less bias and distortion, and include all the inconvenient truths you omitted (see below).
As to your last sentence and its obvious implications, if you don’t think it is evil to..
▪︎Bomb and shell innocent men, women and children in their homes, schools, hospitals and mosques so they die horribly (decapitated, limbs blown off) in their family’s arms;
▪︎Dry out (look it up) and “mow the lawn” to terrorise and CULL children;
▪︎Use innocent Palestinians for target practice;
▪︎Murder journalists;
▪︎Steal land;
▪︎Imprison children without trial,
..then there is something serious wrong with your heart, you are hopelessly out of touch with your soul, and your mind is very twisted.. I will pray for you.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

I don’t find the use of the term Evil (capitalised) at all useful. It’s essentially meaningless.

The acts perpetrated by Hamas, and Mengele, and many others before them were all committed by human beings. Only by looking deeper into ourselves can we hope to bring about any understanding of how and why this happens. The problem is, very few people are prepared to look that deeply.

The theological connotation is also just another means of shying away from confronting ourselves, by inserting a barrier which the psyche can use to try to support itself when confronted with the reality – scenes of which we’ve had thrust into our minds and hearts, but which are essentially.nothing new.

We could start by acknowledging that perhaps every human being has the capacity for such things – one of the reasons why we feel such revulsion. William Golding’s “Lord of the Flies” should be reread. I’ve no doubt there will be many who would deny this, i.e. be in denial.

The capacity for goodness and forgiveness is also, of course, very human; the woman offering water to the enemy soldier. We should seek to better understand that, too.

John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I agree. We should be talking about psychology, not theology.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

Exactly.

Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

Psychology is “scientific” man’s theology… a sort of desperate clinging to the language, structures and perspectives of science when confronted with the ultimate questions of human existence.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I do resent having the potential attribute of evil foisted on me, with the tag that if I think I’m not capable of it I’m in denial. There are a couple of personality types that are capable of heinous crimes and if you check out The Enneagram personality types six and eight you will find them. Hitler was a six as is Putin – fear-based, paranoid. Type eight Trump, Mussolini, and other psychopaths. I’m not a six or an eight, so please don’t generalize. Whatever type projects and needs a scapegoat could kill.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago

Very fine piece of writing. Horribly spine tingling.

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Indeed it is, and I’m disappointed with so many of the comments which just don’t ‘get it’.

G K
G K
1 year ago

It seems there’re a few kinds of evil, quite distinct. Joker, Mengele and the much more common ideological fanaticism are not the same.
Did Hamas act as a pure agent of chaos Joker style? Not quite, violence was too calculated and deliberate. Joker would blow up Gaza too.
Did we witness a parade of sadistic psychopaths? I doubt. Again it was filmed and posted to provoke a very specific reaction. Mengele shunned publicity.
However, it fits the moral blindness of fanatical rage, religious in nature, in this case. The all too human way of dehumanizing the other side. Is it really that transcendental?

Walter Lantz
Walter Lantz
1 year ago

It’s been media overload lately but two instances stood out for me. Canada’s NDP (the Left that has propped up the Trudeau Liberals) held their convention over the weekend. The leader Jagmeet Singh delivered his speech in which he first tepidly condemned the Hamas atrocity (because you have to). There was a smattering of polite applause. He then spoke against the violence in Gaza. Enthusiastic cheers.
This morning on BBC a resident of Gaza was interviewed. Oct 7 was mentioned but the man as much as dismissed it as having nothing to do with what the residents of Gaza were suffering. How could he possibly be unwilling or unable to connect a mass murder to his current circumstance?
Having been raised during the hopeful “peace and love” 70’s that had been initiated by MLK’s dream it seems the Left wants to take us down a road already taken.
“Convinced that their own ideas were the key to the future of the world, that the fate of humanity rested on the outcome of their own doctrinal struggles, the Russian intelligentsia divided up the world into the forces of ‘progress’ and ‘reaction’, friends and enemies of the people’s cause, leaving no room for doubters in between. Here were the origins of the totalitarian world-view”
“For all too many of these high-born revolutionaries, the main attraction of ‘the cause’ lay not so much in the satisfaction which they might derive from seeing the people’s daily lives improved, as in their own romantic search for sense of ‘wholeness’ which might give higher meaning to their lives and to end alienation from the world.” Orlando Figes, A People’s Tragedy: The Russian Revolution, 1891 – 1924
““The predatory psychopaths have figured out how to cloak themselves in the guise of compassion” Jordan Peterson
Three basic reasons that Germans were reluctant to confess wrongdoing:
Many Germans had in fact supported the Nazis and were in fact unrepentant. Their racist and nationalist mentality was intact, perhaps even heightened by the defeat which triggered feelings of anger and resentment.
The nature and extent of the Nazi barbarities was difficult to comprehend, even for some of those who participated in them. Bystanders were reluctant to take responsibility for a campaign that was, in both quantitative and moral terms, nearly incomprehensible.
Germans were suffering also and they naturally gave priority to their own suffering. Hockenos, A Church Divided: German Protestants Confront the Nazi Past

David Kavanagh
David Kavanagh
1 year ago

I agree with all the comments I have read so far. So, why haven’t I read to the end? Because I have posted so many comments on the evils f islam, knowing it has not made the slightest difference or changed a single mind. So, I have a proposition, probably impractical, but I would be interested in comments, both for and against, from muslims and non-muslims. My proposition is that we admit defeat, and disengage ourselves from islam, or at least as much as (politically) possible from muslim states, and as (humanly) possible from muslim people. Maybe we bear some responsibilty for the current state: muslims shown conclusively they have no wish to integrate and perhaps we would have a more stable situation if we respected their wishes for parallel societies, each leaving the other side alone as much as is feasible. Who knows, maybe after 50 years . . . 100 years . . . . . . . .

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  David Kavanagh

Let’s let them have Texus as a Muslim country.

Carol Moore
Carol Moore
1 year ago

Excellent article.

Richard Irons
Richard Irons
1 year ago

“The line between good and evil runs not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either — but right through every human heart.”

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

J Bryant
J Bryant
1 year ago

I have no idea how this apparently eternal conflict between Israel and Palestine can be ended. I did, however, view some of the tragic footage from the Hamas raid into Israel where innocent people, notably children, were killed. I viewed similarly tragic footage of children being killed by Israeli shells in Gaza.
One thing is absolutely clear, at least for me: the response to the killing of children is not the killing of more children.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

I don’t condone killing children, but there is a difference. Israel will unfortunately kill a lot of civilians, but they are not the intended target. Hamas deliberately uses civilians as shields. Israel will drop leaflets warning civilians of the impending bombing. Hamas will block roads preventing them from leaving.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

When the murdererer who killed your wife hides behind his own wife, do you let him go? No, you shoot him, and if his wife is killed, her death is on her husband, not on you.

james goater
james goater
1 year ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

An outstandingly relevant analogy!

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Completely missing the point.

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Based on the argument you just made, Evil can never be defeated, because it just needs to hide behind innocents. On that basis, every RAF raid in WW2 would be aborted, and every German unit defending a French town in June 44 would have to be left alone. The French suffered terribly in the summer of 44. They never complained, because they wanted to be free of evil. What I don’t know is whether the citizens of Gaza want to be free of Hamas or whether they support them. Oddly, this question doesn’t get asked much.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

Many Allied troops were aware of French hostility to them as the Allied invasion devastated France with massive loss of life.

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

Rot. The overwhelming response Allied soldiers got was positive. The French response was brave, generous and realistic. Witness the way they keep those museums going in Normandy to this day.

Haydn Pyatt
Haydn Pyatt
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

When I visited Normandy on the 50th anniversary in 1994 with my liberator father, the response from a group of locals we got talking to was that the Allies killed more of them than the occupying Nazis ever did and they still aren’t sure if the losses were worth it.

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
1 year ago
Reply to  Haydn Pyatt

A group of young locals, I bet.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

How old are you?

Russell Sharpe
Russell Sharpe
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

“What I don’t know is whether the citizens of Gaza want to be free of Hamas or whether they support them.”
It bears remembering that half of Gaza’ s population are children, and so have been raised by Hamas to believe that Jews are nothing other than devils.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

I suspect because if you ask a Palestinian they would be too afraid to speak the truth.

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Sometimes the response will include killing more children. See my response to Billy Bob further up the page. The British response to Germany was the RAF dropping bombs on cities.

Last edited 1 year ago by D Glover
Xaven Taner
Xaven Taner
1 year ago

This is as obtuse a justification as the examples the author cited from Nazis in Lanzmann’s film.
Arguing that having seen the face of Evil Israel is now absolved of measuring its response in any way is effectively a warrant for a new genocide in Gaza. Since if the worst has already happened, no amount of cruelty or mass slaughter could possibly compare. But measuring ones actions against a positive idea of the Good is what international humanitarian Law and ethics more generally is meant to be about. That is the meaning of the Geneva conventions which set out the obligations of States in war.
Ordinary people when asked if the extermination of 2 million people in Gaza would be acceptable to them as a response to the Hamas attack immediately refuse, which tells me that less academically inclined minds have a more intuitive sense of Good and Evil than this author, who prefers Jesuitical justifications. Tarring ones enemy as absolute Evil has been a means of justifying mass murder since time immemorial. This author is highly unoriginal and unchristian, despite his allusions to Theology. 

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
1 year ago
Reply to  Xaven Taner

Israel is not in the genocide business. That is what Jihadists do. We are in the defense business and sometimes you need to kill your enemies in order to assert and ensure your right to live.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Rafi Stern

Yep, all those children being pulled from the rubble in Gaza were a danger to yourselves weren’t they!
The Hamas atrocity was disgusting, but the Israelis response is just as bad in my eyes. If we’re just going on sheer numbers of civilians it’s currently a 2:1 ratio to yourselves, and Hamas have finished their attack while you haven’t started yours yet

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Where does it say that Hamas have finished their attack? The placards say ‘From the river to the sea’ so it’s not finished yet.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Hamas has not yet finished their attack – they are still firing rockets. Israel is employing “counter-battery fire” It’s not the Israelis fault if Hamas use ‘civilian’ spaces to launch their rockets.

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The Hamas attack will not be over until the last hostage is returned. How about the first one.

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The rules of war forbid placing military installations in civilian buildings and make such buildings legitimate targets. They do not grant impunity to the war criminals who use civilians as shields.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

They bombed their own hospital.

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
1 year ago

A proportionate response means try not to kill too many Gazan civilians, just that, no more.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

And, I’m sure that’s what Israel will try to do – try not to kill too many civilians.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clare Knight
Chauncey Gardiner
Chauncey Gardiner
1 year ago

I appreciate this essay.
I myself push a little harder on the strategic value (the perceived usefulness) of brutality in an essay I few days ago:
Power, Brutality and Universal ValuesPower does appear to lead the list of universal values. But, worse, people can be conditioned to value brutality.https://dvwilliamson.substack.com/p/power-brutality-and-universal-values
The reader might find it complementary.

Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
1 year ago

If you understand Nazi jurist Carl Schmitt you believe that the religious distinction is good vs. evil, and the political distinction is friend vs. enemy.
As I understand it, experts agree that the Hamas regime in Gaza is 100 percent devoted to the idea that Israel is the enemy. What do you do to the enemy? Down the ages, you kill all the men and sell the women and children into slavery.
In the 20th century leading experts invented the artificial famine and the Purge and the concentration camp and the death camp and carpet bombing to kill the enemy. This is called progress.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

Telling the civilians to get out of the way is progress, it tells your enemy where you are going to attack. When Hamas refuse to let them leave, then perhaps it is Hamas who you should be aiming your words at. What father would put his wife and children in the firing line to save himself?

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
1 year ago

I am glad to see Evil and Satanic re-enter public discourse as ways to explain unfathomable acts in recent history and in centuries of Islam. Baudelaire among others is credited with saying the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled off is persuading people he doesn’t exist.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jerry Carroll
Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago

To attribute behaviour of any kind to a fictional entity called Evil is a philosophical fallacy that closes the door to any attempt to understand human behaviour. The question should be under what conditions do what kinds of humans engage in what types of behaviours towards other, what kind of human beings. This is the fallacy of spurious reification, as Whitehead called it. The modest studies of Stanley Milgram contribute more to an understanding of cruel behaviour than any pompous philosophizing about a supposedly causal entity called Evil, even if that philosophizing is undertaken by Hannah Arendt.

Martin Ambrens
Martin Ambrens
1 year ago

Lots of words – to finally “get there” in the end.
It “goes against the grain” for intellectuals to recognise that there is actually another “epistemological category”: the spiritual.
(I mean – gosh – if that’s right – then MAN is not the measure of all things after all!?)
Yes. It’s satanic. It’s a “thing”.
So now what?

Andrew Holmes
Andrew Holmes
1 year ago

While I entirely agree with the assessment of Hamas’ actions qualifying as Evil, I am troubled by the distinction between useful and useless. Gengis Khan, Robespierre, Lenin and Stalin understood and utilized terror’s utility to advance their objectives as a formal policy. Also medieval punishment and Franco’s Spain openly showed horrendous consequences for violations. This also qualities as Evil.
Likewise Duranty lied about Soviet brutality, Chomsky favored Pol Pot, many on the left excused depravity because of “the need to industrialize,” and others like Fallows celebrated dictator’s ability to mandate projects people like Fallows found charming (irrelevant was what was done to the victims ofthedictators). I’m undecided whether this conduct was evil or, in Lenin’s phrase, useful idiocy. It certainly displayed the lack of a moral standard.

0 0
0 0
1 year ago

It is shocking to see how many people contributing to Unherd are willing to blind themselves to a humane response to the suffering of Palestinians. The pretence that there was peace a month ago (not seige and settlements without even a pretence of negotiations to find a peace), the positioning of Hamas as ISIS when they know it is more complex, and the blaming of Hamas when Israel deprives civilians of water, fuel and aid. Half the population of Gaza are children (yes children) brought up in what is an open prison – and yet contributors insist that the population chose Hamas (last election 2005) and Israeli politicians demand that the Palestinians should themselves have risen up against Hamas (with what weapons?) otherwise they are culpable. Meanwhile, when peaceful resistance against Israel was tried civilians were killed by Israel – begging the question does Israel fear the righteousness of peaceful resistance as we know many regimes do?

G K
G K
1 year ago

How about to stop all this theological talk and get back to might is right? By Allah, it explains all happening so much better.

Jürg Gassmann
Jürg Gassmann
1 year ago
Reply to  G K

A fundamental category error underlies the discussion, including Mr. Howland’s essay, resulting not so much in “intellectual obfuscation” as in outright misdirection.
Hamas’ actions were terrorism committed by criminals, not an act of war committed by a belligerent state.
Rather than apply the standard of “proportionality” to Israel’s actions, the question should be whether the actions are in the same category as Hamas’ actions. A military action can be judged under the rules of war only by reference to its military objective. If the objective is not military, but the actions are, then there is a mismatch – the laws of war cannot justify the action.

James Jenkin
James Jenkin
1 year ago

Yes, it makes no sense why the nazis stepped up the killing in death camps when they started losing the war. Couldn’t they use those people as slave labour, making weapons? Clearly, ‘useless violence’ can be demoniacally intoxicating.

Nathan Ngumi
Nathan Ngumi
1 year ago

Indeed.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago

Well,yes all this is directly Demonic and the work of a cruelly laughing Satan. The Devil does exist and he’s come out of hiding. Old slave whipper Joe works for him.

Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden
1 year ago

They themselves have slipped into evil. They did so when they backed puberty blockers and hormone treatment for young teenagers.

Michael Walsh
Michael Walsh
1 year ago

Their support for Hamas shows how badly the modern Left is half-assing Marxism, indeed they’ve abandoned class-consciousness for solipsistic moral grandstanding. Anti-Semitism (aka anti-Zionism) turns poor Arabs’ focus away from their own oppressive elites, an obvious ploy that the old-school Reds would have seen right through.

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
1 year ago

Great article. Useful versus useless violence is itself a useful distinction. As far as I can see, Hamas and their supporters are unable to distinguish the two.

Darren White
Darren White
1 year ago

A good article but penetrated with the usual logical inconsistencies and blindness afforded the Israelites when Palestine is discussed in the context of the wider Zionist project.

Just because Evil was done to the Jews ( it was) doesn’t give them perpetual invisibility from human rights laws that apply to all global citizens.

Just because the day to day plight of the Palestinians is boring old hunger and strife and suffering doesn’t strike it from the ledger when ‘reasons’ for evil are accounted.

The Palestinian attack was heinous and Evil. This was a mistake. What would constitute a legitimate attack in the eyes of the world would be a military one, targeting the IDF? Clearly the IDF is infinitely more powerful and resourced than Hamas so from a purely game-logic point of view its not really an option. In that sense the vile attack is as much creation of architects of the Gaza compound as the Hamas militants who executed it.

Any number of global and reputable human rights organizations identify the Israel -Palestine situation as colonist and colonised , the ongoing maintenance of which amounts to Apartheid.

Ultimately there may be no way out for either side without war. But one thing is absolutely certain: both sides have blood on their hands. And both sides have dipped into the well of Evil again and again and again.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
1 year ago
Reply to  Darren White

Those who equate the attacker and the attacked are devoid of moral compass. On October 6th, there was peace. On October 7th, there was war. Because Hamas began the war with an attack on the softest targets they could find. Israel attacks Hamas, who bravely hides behind their own women and children, whose deaths are on Hamas, not Israel.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samuel Ross
Darren White
Darren White
1 year ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

Its far from that simple. The history of the conflict ( some other adjectives could be : invasion, ethnic cleansing, apartheid…) has to be accounted. As for “ Peace on the 6th” , what nonsense. You could try: blockade , inter-conflict period or many other words but “peace”? The fist sentence of my original post sums up the category of commentary that your response falls into.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

The reason any coward hides behind innocent women and children is that they expect the other side to abide by the law (otherwise what’s the point?)… That’s what usually separates terrorists from legitimate defence forces.
Take a (US? or) British policeman who decides to shoot his way through 10 or more children to take down a known murderer (who had shot and wounded the policeman)
Were he to do so and offer the following defence:
A) that he HAD to respond and/or
B) that the death of those 10 children was not his responsibility but rather that of the murderer
C) that he has to “discourage” other killers from using human shields…
…would hardly carry weight in a (US? or) British court, would it? So why make a special case for Israel/IDF? Is it because they are God’s chosen and can do no wrong? Or is it because Palestinian children are just so much disposible rubbish?
Please examine your consciences and look into your hearts, if you have any?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Darren White

Why the downticks? A perfect3reasonable contribution, surely?

Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
1 year ago

Hamas are no more evil than the forces against Assad, but were he to try root out the Islamists with the same ferocity as Israel the west would intervene quite strongly.

So what is going on here? It looks like the west wants Syria to collapse and is happy to have Islamists overrun the place.

Dermot O'Sullivan
Dermot O'Sullivan
1 year ago

This article is designed to shock us by describing the atrocities of the nazis – a mental softening up before skipping ahead to another set of atrocities committed by Hamas, thus encouraging us to associate the two with each other. I’m sure I could make an argument that associates the Warsaw uprising with the situation in Gaza, but I won’t. The link to the article below (behind a paywall I’m afraid) is a more nuanced view of the conflict. That of course won’t help the thousands who have already perished and the thousands more who are going to die, but at some stage we have to find a way out of this repeating catastrophe.

The outside world must walk Israel back from the abyss. It cannot be part of the choir of incitementBy Daniel Levy and Zaha Hassan

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

Yes, the moral equivalence-making of the Hamas atrocity and the Holocaust is disingenuous and self-serving. Why is the West so weak when it comes to dealing with Israel over the Palestinian question? Is it guilt about the Holocaust or maybe the solution it imposed on Palestine in 1948?

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
j watson
j watson
1 year ago

The Israeli’s have often got it wrong in how they handle the Palestinians, and of course many Israeli’s detest the idea of a 2 state solution or giving any of the West Bank to the Palestinians.
But fundamentally a significant cohort of Palestinian para-military leadership, crucially supported and encouraged by Tehran, never wants peace on any terms. This has unfortunately also played to the right wing zealots in Israel.
We often also forget when the state Of Israel was first formed it was the Palestinians and Arab supporters who immediately sought to snuff out this new nation. That DNA has not died out.
Take the Theocrats out of Tehran and this part of the World would have a chance of peace. Until then they will continue to perpetuate violence against Israel by whatever means they can, because their reward is in heaven, or so they believe.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Yes, there is that dimension too, you are correct. I believe that it’s possible to hit terrorism hard and precisely, and at the same time work towards giving the vast majority of peaceful Palestinians a homeland, security and decent standard of living. The problem is, we have taken our eye off the ball there.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

Jordan was the land given to the Palestinians, in fact vast tracts of what originally was to be Israel were given to Palestinians, as it is easy to discover.
A more intriguing note is that Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt the have also fought ‘Palestinians’ – why is that? Perhaps Iran should accept them all as ‘refugees’? Or the leaders currently living in Qatar IIRC could ask for their followers to be allowed to live there too? It’s a big world the Muslim world, yet they don’t seem very keen on Palestinians as neighbours or ‘immigrants’.

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
1 year ago

Would you prefer a moral equivalence between the Hamas atrocity and a pogrom? Because that fits too.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

Are you offering me a list of choices? Why not the Palestinian situation and apartheid? We have to deal with where we are now and that involves dismantling terrorism and settling the Palestinian question.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

As someone pointed out only recently. Arabs live in Israel quite happily it seems. How many Israeli’s (other than hostages, presumed to be still alive) live in Gaza or the West bank with no fear for their lives?

P N
P N
1 year ago

Not half as disingenuous as attempting moral equivalence between the Hamas atrocity and Israeli treatment of Palestinians.

Why is the West so weak indeed? Why do we pander to left wing calls for a proportionate response when Israel’s restraint allows Hamas to continue with impunity? That’s weakness.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

Perhaps the West understands that an Ariana Grande concert in Manchester filled with young girls isn’t much to do with Israel?

P N
P N
1 year ago

Are you not shocked by Hamas? We don’t need the horror of the Holocaust to know that the savagery of Hamas is evil. You clearly are making the argument that the Warsaw uprising is similar to the situation in Gaza so let’s deal with that head on. In the Warsaw uprising, no one raped young girls and paraded their mutilated naked bodies through the streets, no one slit the throats of babies, no one burned families alive in their houses, taking tyres through the fence with them for extra smoke, no one committed evil for evil’s sake. Do you understand the point of the article now?

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

Well said!

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

I doubt it would work as well, given the facts in each case.

Dick Barrett
Dick Barrett
1 year ago

People who reject the concept of a proportionate response are effectively giving the responders carte blanche to act as they wish, up to and including mass extermination. Extremist language such as that in this article can only amplify the evil, and the resultant fighting in Gaza might in fact begin to resemble the Warsaw uprising of 1944.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dick Barrett
Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Dick Barrett

As long as the Israelis do not deliberately target women and children, then any response is ‘proportionate’ Hamas is already preventing civilians obeying the IDF warning to evacuate the North. There are also suspicions that the ‘IDF attack that killed Civilians on the road south was in fact Hamas. It wouldn’t suprise me, they kill their own as do the West Bank authorities. Death Sentence for selling Land to an Israel? Really?
The issue isn’t just Israel though, is it? Israel is the one state that fights back, or are London, Manchester, Boston, New York to name but 4 other ‘Islamic’ atrocities because the Islamists have a very poor sense of Geography and think these are all “Israeli Cities”?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Dick Barrett

It seems extermination / genocide is the preferred option! Hence the downticks. Who knew there were so many heartless, wicked, bloodthirsty people contributing to Unherd?

Sahar Nasrallah
Sahar Nasrallah
1 year ago

It’s funny how this article is about how europeans hated and killed jews, we understand they were not arabs. projecting that onto them and drawing an arabs vs jews rhetoric is distasteful. It is a battle between strong western ally and refugee population (with odd political views nonetheless) one happens to be jewish religious state and the other happen to be natives arabs of the land (regardless what we think of them good, bad, immoral etc). European have an antisemitism problem and got rid of it by getting jews out of the country and imposing the creation of a new state on someone else’s land. I am not in support of hamas of course and they are a terrorist organization but it seems vey scary that you are willing to go back to the second world war to explain the grievances of one people then jump to oct 7 2023 as if there was nothing in between that could have given rise to an islamic extremist organization. This rhetoric of picking and choosing from history and facts is making way for a new holocaust mentality by dehumanizing population the same way nazis did to jews in europe. Failing to see that is scary. I hope IDF will be able to end hamas (that the israelis created and funded btw to counter the rise of Arafat, this is similar to how we funded taliban and isis at one point, then it blew back) but you can’t pick and chose what to highlight from history for whatever benefits your argument.

Last edited 1 year ago by Sahar Nasrallah
Micheal MacGabhann
Micheal MacGabhann
1 year ago

Why did the British let one million of their own citizens die from starvation between 1846 and 1851? Did they not “understand evil”?

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
1 year ago

The Romans were pretty mean, too. How far do you want to go back?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

Nonsense!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

Funny and true.

Micheal MacGabhann
Micheal MacGabhann
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

I was testing to see if the definition of “evil” was relative and conveniently changes in hindsight. And it clearly does.

Last edited 1 year ago by Micheal MacGabhann
Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

Because it wasn’t as easy to prevent as you think it was.

Chuck Burns
Chuck Burns
1 year ago

There is no justification for what Hamas has done just as there is no justification for what Israel has done in decades past. So here we are.
Two peoples promised the same small piece of land by the British during the First World War. In 1948 the Israelis started moving in to that small area of land that was inhabited by some 700,000 Arabs together with a much smaller number of Jews and Christians. The Arabs were promised a State called Palestine with it’s Capital being East Jerusalem. The Jews kept immigrating from all parts of Europe into the area. The promise to the Arabs was never kept.
The closest outcome to a solution is to go back to what the British promised in 1948. Set up the two States of Israel and Palestine and start all over again.
Based on what has happened over the last 70 years I suggest keeping the USA far away from the situation. The US has proved that they are unwilling or incapable of the diplomacy required to work this out.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Chuck Burns

The Arabs wholly rejected the two state solution.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Chuck Burns

That State was land originally promised to the Jews, try reading up on it. IF the land promised had been provided for the Jews(and given it was conquered land from the Ottoman Empire who in turn had ‘conquered it’ the validation of ownership is somewhat obscure) Jordan was part of that land promised to the Jews, but in the end they were left in a ‘rump’ state which even then the Arabs refused to accept and attempted by force of arms to capture and eliminate the Jews.
The simplest test is which faction, IF they were to disarm would guarantee peace and no pogroms? Well it wouldn’t be the Israelis. As someone once said, the Palestinians can lose many times, Israel will only ever lose once.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
1 year ago
Reply to  Chuck Burns

Israel was a country before Islam ever darkened the world. ‘Palestine’ is a modern fiction. There was never a nation by that name.

james goater
james goater
1 year ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

Absolutely correct. Took a lot of reading to reach that centrally-important point! Thank you.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

This is the sort of Jesuitic garbage we also get from Jewish theological excuse making! Invoking the term Mediaeval to describe face to face torture and murder (which Israelis are not averse to – check out “drying out”) but trying to justify murder and torture from 5,000 feet in the air “for useful reasons” is somehow okay? Is it? No, it is NOT.
When a child is beheaded or delimbed by a bomb or a collapsing building and dies in agony before its mother’s eyes that is no better than doing the same face to face.. It’s cleaner for the pilot of course and the suppliers of the weapons can call it defence and you can dress it up any way you like but it is just as barbaric and just as EEvil!
When the side perpetrating this demonic Evil has all the power and all weapons it is far more evil! When it murders 96 children for ever 4 of it’s own murdered that is 25 times as Evil! When it does it for 70 years as against 2 or 3 one off deplorable actions by HAMAS it is 100 times worse. Israel is the most evil regime on planet Earth, aided and abetted by the second most evil, the US with it’s 8 million victims in the last 30 years.. GB is well behind but hoping to catch up! Wicked, evil, demonic, horrible, child murdering degenerates all!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Come off Liam old chap, you old hypocrite, you ‘paddies’ have done the same.
Remember the IRA ‘Warrington Bombing’ of 1993?
That killed Jonathan Ball aged 3, and Tim Parry aged 12.

I bet there was some rejoicing that night in Cork, Dublin, Gortahork and elsewhere?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

I deplored those too Charlie, then and I repeat it now! Any and all terrorism is utterly deplorable.. be it from “freedom fighter” terrorists or state terrorists, be it face to face or from the air or a missile launcher.. It is ALL horrible, brutal, inhuman, vile and evil! Btw Charlie I’m CoI, not RC not that that is in any way relevant to me but it might be to you?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Of course Israel must try to minimize civilian casualties. They are imploring the residents of northern Gaza to evacuate the militarized areas and head south. But Hamas roadblocks are preventing it. When murderous cowards hide behind their own people, using women and children as human shields, should they be spared of the consequences? Why incentivize this behavior? Every drop of blood spilled is on the hands of Hamas, not Israel.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

No, if I bomb homes, hospitals, schools and mosques the blood of the innocents is on my hands IRRESPECTIVE of provocation.. But then I’m a Christian.. by that I mean I’m a fervent follower of Jesus Christ.. Consequently, there is no room in my heart for revenge, slaughter of innocent children (or women or men), no nice intellectual corner that permits equivocation.. it’s really simple..
If a British or US policeman shoots through a British or US child to kill a murdered is that ok? Is it legal? Is the policeman immune from prosecution? No, of course not! Why should innocent Palestinians children be different? Are they rubbish to be binned? Get a grip of your heart will you!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

The IDF bombed the escape route (roads south) and killed many fleeing civilians. They also bombed the escape route into Egypt, ie the border crossing (4 strikes) and the large waiting area (nearby car park, one strike) killing a great many more!
Evacuation of 1.1 million people, denied petrol, water, food and medical supplies is impossible… hence this is the vilest war crime.. even if they were all adults, fit and healthy it would be totally impossible but many are children (50.5%), elderly, sick, on life-support (10,000 injured by 6,000 IDF/ Israeli bombs and missiles!
Do you seriously contend that this is anything other than a horrible crime against humanity, a war crime, a genocide? Do you have a heart? No? ok, I guess I’m wasting my time then.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The Irish have form for kidnapping women and ‘disappearing them’ somewhat similar to the Palestinians in that sense, though I believe their former leadership ‘can’t remember where they hid the bodies’ – convenient. Their political ‘descendants’ now walk around telling Israel what to do!
As so well put earlier. IF Hamas/Palestinians/Islamist’s gave up the gun, rocket, bomb and knife, peace would prevail, If Israel gave them up, a second holocaust would ensue. As long as Israel doesn’t deliberately target the civilians who refuse to move or are prevented from moving by the Hamas tactic of using them as Human shields and propaganda, Israel’s response will be proportionate.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Vile, wicked terrorists exists in EVERY country.. many become statesman later on. In the USUK you have Bush and Blair still lauded though between them they are responsible for a million horrible murders of innocent Iraqis.
That is NOT the point.. I deplore ALL terrorists and always have done, the IRA included.. I UNDERSTAND but still deplore terrorism born of brutal repression, torture, injustice, apartheid and gerrymandering (NI govt) and add in genocide and land theft for Zionists/IDF.. I repeat: it does NOT excuse terrorism; it merely explains its origins.
State terrorism on the other hand has no such excuses or equivocation.. it is born out of racism, religious bigotry (NI govt) and add in plain wicked evil (Israel govt).. That makes the wrongdoing by govts all the worse.. in the case of Israel, their kill rate of innocent Palestinians being 25 times greater than the (still appalling!) kill rate of Innocent Palestinians.
The IDF has all the power, all the weapons, all the technology and (almost) all the milititary and financial support (US).
By the way.. check out the many, many murders of West Bank Palestinians.. Hamas doesn’t exist in the west Bank! So much for the idiot suggestion that if Hamas didn’t exist they’d be peace! Utter garbage!

Christine Lucas
Christine Lucas
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

History is to learn from as is the Bible, both old and new testament. Medieval does not mean dumb. People were learning, documenting, figuring things out. We for practical purposes could be at the brink of the next Crusade. Think about it. The Church in the hands of a schismatic pope, the perverse stifling the civilized for not being politically correct (they never read “Miss Manners “.
Oh, and during Schmovid we had our latest Brown Shirt, who will resurface first opportunity they get.
Unlike the Middle Ages, we seem to be going backwardsin civilization thanks to those who do not embrace tradition, family and history and God. Evil exists. Bealzibub and the demons exist waiting for an opening.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

I agree.. i use the term Midieval only because it has been used over and over by others to reflect a special kind of sadism.. which is valid to some extent at least.. We now use technology to inflict similar barbaric death and destruction but on a vastly greater scale, and from a safe distance so it seems “nicer” somehow.
Evil is all around and heavily supported by heartless, soulless, gullible idiots who cannot see the error of their ways, God forgive them but they know not what the do!
If nice people promote revenge and blood lust then they aren’t really nice at all, are they? Indeed they are anti Christian, ie Anti Christ..

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

10 downticks.. looks like the vengeful, heartless, bloodthirsty Unherd contributors win the day!

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

I disagree with the article. While Hamas actions were despicable, they clearly had an overall purpose of attempting to turn the lands back over to the Arabs via a violent campaign, in fact much like the one used by Jewish groups against the British forces 80 years ago.
It was a terrorist attack, but one designed to cause fear amongst the general Israeli population, and also to goad the IDF into retaliatory air strikes and maybe more.
The fact that the Israeli authorities have been naive enough to now kill more Palestinian civilians than Hamas managed, which has turned much of the worlds opinion from sympathy for the original attack to now saying that both sides are as bad as each other is just sheer stupidity in their part.

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It is very simplistic to say that “he Israeli authorities have been naive enough to now kill more Palestinian civilians”. The purpose of our fight (I have children out there fighting) is not to avenge the rape, torture, abduction and murder of our citizens, but to radically change the situation so that this will not happen again. I don’t want to see more suffering that will just perpetuate the circle of violence. I don’t want more Evil. Or even evil. Hopefully this time we will get the job done, before our political will and the world’s patronizing “gracious” patience run out.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Rafi Stern

Your comment implies you want victory rather than peace to be honest. If Hamas was removed would you be happy for an independent Palestinian state with the borders along the original partition?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I’ll take the lack of response that you don’t believe the Palestinians should have an independent homeland of their own

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Don’t assume that, he may have gone out of town.

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I want peace not just victory. Victory without peace is hollow, because it is just the prelude to the next round of murder. I don’t want my children and grandchildren to need to keep fighting Jihadists and other murderous people who want to push us into the sea. Unfortunately that looks like an unrealistic dream though, and at least in the meantime we are going to have to continue attaining victories and keep fighting for our survival and our right to live.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Rafi Stern

So do you believe the Palestinians have a right to an independent homeland? If so should it largely follow the original lines of partition where possible?

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It never worked on the numerous occasions the Israelis have been required to try it.
Try looking at the original map of the proposed State of Israel. Large areas of it are currently part of at least 2 other Arab countries. Both of whom, curiously, don’t get on with “Palestinians”.

Russell Sharpe
Russell Sharpe
1 year ago
Reply to  Rafi Stern

My prayers for your children’s safety. It’s worth remarking that before the creation of Israel, the sort of butchery (pogrom) we saw on 7th October was a not uncommon occurrence across Europe, and this had been so for centuries. If there were any doubt about the absolute necessity for a strong Jewish state, it has been utterly dispelled by the events of that day

Last edited 1 year ago by Russell Sharpe
Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

There is the little problem of who actually wants peace. Israel does, Hamas doesn’t. Hamas wants No Israel.
One day the rest of the West may discover that they want No West either IF they ever succeed in getting rid of Israel and occupying Europe on a largish scale.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It’s exactly what Hamas planned.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

Deir Yassin was evil. So was the IDF aiding and abetting of the Sabra & Shatila massacres. The Palestinians are not Nazi Germany. They don’t deserve to be bombed into submission nor subjugated in an apartheid style system. By all means find and kill or bring to justice the Hamas perpetrators and their helpers. But what the Israelis are doing now to Gaza is an unjustifiable and emotional reaction.

Romi Elnagar
Romi Elnagar
1 year ago

I wonder if people commenting here even know the name Deir Yassin. Except for a few who have been in the Middle East, or have some other connection to the region, Americans are pretty brainwashed by the MSM about Israeli terrorism and how terrorists like Menachem Begin created the Zionist state. I thought it would be different with Unherd. 🙁

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Romi Elnagar

MI5 had the Irgun classified as a terrorist organisation. Irgun killed British soldiers in Palestine. The Stern gang were another Israeli terrorist group; they assassinated Swedish diplomat Count Bernadotte (who ironically had negotiated the release of prisoners from concentration camps in WW2). The Israelis are no angels. But today it is Hamas who have blood on their hands.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

A down-tick, for posting facts that people don’t like to hear, lol. This site really is stooping to new lows.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

So we accept that Hamas can deliberately target women, children and do what they did because of the Irgun and Stern gang and Israel can do nothing in return?

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

They told the women and children and civilians to get out of where they intend to strike. That’s a big thing, you think that telling your enemy where you will attack isn’t a threat to the lives of the men you order to do that?
Hamas it seems isn’t going to let them out.

Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
1 year ago

UnHerd’s commentaries on the Gaza War have been disappointing. What has happened to the brave questioning of all established assumptions, including the feasibility or desirability of a continuing State of Israel? The calls to ‘align ourselves’ with Israel (whatever that means) seem like a step backwards to a past era when Us-Them, black-white thinking was all the rage. What has happened?

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Vern Hughes

I will not uptick your comment since you mention questioning whether Israel should exist as a legitimate topic, and that is going too far IMHO. However, there does seem to be a theme on this site currently of giving Israel a free pass. I have no skin in this game nor am I willing to take sides, except to condemn terrorism and accept Israel’s right to seek justice for those murdered, but not at any cost.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago

Who is giving whom a free pass? Israel is a nation state, not mine, they are free to do as they wish, assuming they have the power.
I would simply point out that the myth of ‘proportionality’ is just that and a convenient attempt to prevent Hamas from reaping the whirlwind when it sowed the wind.
It is war, fortunately for many Palestinians, Israel isn’t Hamas, so they won’t deliberately murder, decapitate and otherwise behave like the visitors from Gaza. BUT I would point out, that I very much doubt Islamic Jihadists would be satisfied with the destruction of Israel. Even I am not so dismissive of their intelligence as to believe they didn’t know the Manchester Arena, full of young girls, wasn’t in an Israeli City.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Vern Hughes

It would be easier and more practical to get the very large Muslim world to take the population of Gaza and perhaps the West Bank Egypt and Jordan seem to be able to live with Israel, Curiously Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon couldn’t live with the Palestinians. Though that is conveniently forgotten now.

Romi Elnagar
Romi Elnagar
1 year ago

This article is not an attempt to discuss Naziism, or Hamas.
This is an attempt to justify the on-going genocide of Palestinians. From the terrorism of the Irgun Zvai Leumi in Deir Yassin and over 400 other Palestinian villages that were ethnically cleansed in 1948, through the atrocities at Sabra and Shatila to the illegal and immoral complete blockade of Gaza for 16 years and counting, Israel has perpetrated atrocities against Palestinians with impunity.
Howland seems to think that Hamas has only an ideology of hate. It is true that Hamas exists to fight Israel. He doesn’t mention that international law gives people in Occupied Territories every right to resist their oppressors, INCLUDING THE RIGHT OF ARMED STRUGGLE. To say that Israel is not the occupier in Gaza is disingenuous: Israel has maintained a complete siege of the enclave, which is ALSO AGAINST INTERNATIONAL LAW, as is the use of white phosphorus, the bombing of civilians, and the cutting off of food, water and other necessities. To say that the Nazis did any of that to the Jews in WWII doesn’t give Israel any right to engage in similar atrocities. In fact, as many enlightened Jews in Israel–Jews who resist the Occupation–are saying, it should make Israel even more culpable than Nazis, since the victims of Nazism presumably should know better.
The lies that this present exponent of Israeli fascism tells here are appalling, but some are easily disproven, or would be impossible for Howland to substantiate if, in fact, he were actually trying to write a piece of responsible journalism. The IDF has gone on record as REFUSING to confirm the story of numerous babies being beheaded by Hamas, and there have been no reports of rapes by Hamas. Indeed, one Israeli woman has dared to say that Hamas treated her very well during the two hours they occupied her home (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD7NI0tGbp8). This is in stark contrast to the brutality of the Occupation, and even rapes of girls in prison by Israeli soldiers, but I wasn’t surprised to see that Howland doesn’t talk about the atrocities of Israel. To do so might ruin his fiction.
I just invite him to explain THIS, if he can. https://twitter.com/zeetareen/status/1713894899706114105
Or this. https://thejerusalemfund.org/2018/08/sexual-harassment-and-violence/
Howland’s lies are so big and so daring that they remind us of Stalin’s words about repeated lies, or any of Orwell’s novels. I am sorry to have to say this about anything published by Unherd, but this is not the first time this site lost my faith finding in any kind of fair or responsible journalism.

Last edited 1 year ago by Romi Elnagar
Michael Webb
Michael Webb
1 year ago
Reply to  Romi Elnagar

Oh, you poor misguided fool. The best response to your understanding of it all is the quote ‘If the Arabs laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace in the Middle East, if the Jews did it, tomorrow there would be no Israel’. Also I did admire the Israeli ambassador’s response the the pathetic Sky interview referring to the ‘humanitarian crisis’ in Gaza: ‘There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, there is a war’. Not of Israel’s starting either.

Last edited 1 year ago by Michael Webb
P N
P N
1 year ago
Reply to  Romi Elnagar

If even a portion of what you say is true, how does that justify or even explain the sadistic and sexual violence carried out by Hamas? That’s the point of the article. You claim the article is an attempt to justify the “genocide” of Palestinians (who despite the “genocide” have increased their population in the Gaza strip four times over since 1980). Well your comment is an attempt to justify the sadistic and sexual violence of Hamas. The right of armed struggle (no need for capital letters) does not include the right to behead babies, rape teenagers and parade the naked bodies of torture victims through the streets so “innocent” Palestinians can desecrate them and take selfies.
Your comment contains all the usual buzzwords of the anti-Israel propaganda: genocide, fascism, Occupation (capitalised). You have been well trained. Sadly for you, you’re defending the indefensible. Hamas is not your friend. There are 17 Britons missing or killed after Hamas’s grotesque savagery of 7 October including children.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Romi Elnagar

Hamas is only part of the Islamic Jihad – ISIS was another. A French teacher was murdered only days ago during another ‘Jihadist’ terror attack in France, was he an Israeli? Manchester Arena, full of young girls, was that an Israeli City? Israel is simply the main front line in the Islamic war on everyone else.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
1 year ago

It is inconceivable that the best spies in the world all failed to see Hamas coming. As much as anything else, the Shin Bet created it out of the late Sheikh Ahmed Yassin’s popular religious revival movement. The idea was to weaken the old PLO, and as recently as 2019, Benjamin Netanyahu was calling for Hamas to be nurtured and funded as part of a strategy of driving a wedge between Gaza and the West Bank. That had been working. It has always worked. Hamas has always done what it was designed to do. The best spies in the world, indeed.

But now, Netanyahu has co-opted his opponents, he has marginalised and neutralised his rivals on the Right, he has silenced the judges, and he has usefully exposed the Western elites as cheerleaders for collective punishment and for genocide. Of course, they have always been a lot more than mere cheerleaders for those evils. If Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad had ever launched something such as we saw last Saturday, then Israel was always going to win at least the immediate war. And here we are. At last, the ageing Netanyahu will rank with his brother. A lot of the most effective politicians are on that sociopath-psychopath spectrum, so to speak. They would get far less done if they were not. But they are.

Mike Bell
Mike Bell
1 year ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Can you give a reference for this: “as recently as 2019, Benjamin Netanyahu was calling for Hamas to be nurtured and funded as part of a strategy of driving a wedge between Gaza and the West Bank.”

Romi Elnagar
Romi Elnagar
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike Bell

It’s no secret that Hamas was created by the Mossad to counter the PLO.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
1 year ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

You mean the brother that died at Entebbe? But I agree with you about Netanyahu. I suppose your argument about whether these developments benefit him would require Shin Bet to be somehow ‘in on it’. That’s hard to believe.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

His whole life since Entebbe has been an attempt to live up to his brother.

Romi Elnagar
Romi Elnagar
1 year ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

Why is that hard to believe?

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
1 year ago
Reply to  Romi Elnagar

If Sunak asked MI5 to kill UK citizens, at scale, he wouldn’t get very far. Why do you think Shin Bet would be any different? It only takes a few people to blow the whistle, anyway. The more interesting question is why Hamas acted now, rather than waiting for N to lose power, which seemed very likely until a few days ago. The answer? Hamas want an extreme reaction and N is most likely to give it.

Roshan Satapathy
Roshan Satapathy
1 year ago

The number of pro-israeli essays on unherd is insane. I came here to not be herded. Anyway, clearly, no matter where you go, you’ll always be part of a herd. So, I guess its better to be nowhere.
Unsubbed!

Last edited 1 year ago by Roshan Satapathy
Addie Shog
Addie Shog
1 year ago

don’t slam the door on the way out.

Romi Elnagar
Romi Elnagar
1 year ago
Reply to  Addie Shog

Why not? Maybe it will wake a few people up.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Romi Elnagar

Hamas did that well enough.

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
1 year ago

There’s always the Guardian for you, I suppose!

Roshan Satapathy
Roshan Satapathy
1 year ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

You can believe whatever you want but, please learn to not suppose things about strangers on the internet. I have never read the guardian. This won’t change your thinking but, I thought I should tell you.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

Is that what UnHerd is meant to be, the opposite of The Guardian?

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
1 year ago

Sometimes the truth is self-evident and saying anything otherwise, is just not an option.

Romi Elnagar
Romi Elnagar
1 year ago

I ended my subscription, which still runs for almost another year, after the last bigoted pro-Zionist article that they ran. But, since there is no way they will reverse the charges, I have to be subscribed until then. So, I have decided to continue to “speak truth to power” (the power, in this case, of Zionist propaganda) in reader’s blogs for the time being. Perhaps a few people are genuinely subscribed to Unherd to learn the truth, and may be interested in what I say, and the links to information not on the MSM, which is as completely befuddled by Zionist lies as–disappointingly–Unherd is.

Duane M
Duane M
1 year ago
Reply to  Romi Elnagar

Please hang around. At Unherd there is at least a variety of attitudes, and some of the writers are very good. Jacob Howland, not so much; I would have expected better from an academic at a supposedly heterodox college. His thinking is sophomoric and his writing is another step lower.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
1 year ago
Reply to  Romi Elnagar

So you are telling me Hamas lied when it said it did all these things and rejoiced over them?

Richard William Pitt
Richard William Pitt
9 months ago
Reply to  Romi Elnagar

Agreed. Have just read one too many Zionist rants now, three months later and not a hint at reflection that maybe, just maybe, Israel’s reaction is too much and threatens its own statehood. Howland in particular is beyond