Age 13, Judy Wiegand was married off to the older man who sexually abused her. Age 15, already a mother, amid the indifference of neighbours and the police to her husband’s violent mistreatment of her, Judy finally fled when her husband threatened to hurt her child. In 2018, then 54, Wiegand’s testimony was instrumental in passing a Kentucky bill limiting child marriage.
It’s still common, though. Worldwide, more than 650 million women were married while still children. Nor is the practice normal only away from the “developed” West: most American states still allow marriage under 18, while California, Mississippi, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Washington have no lower age limit for marriage at all.
According to one campaign, between 2000 and 2018 in the United States, 222,430 under-18s were married, including 9,530 under-16s. Of those married under 18, 88% are girls. The age-gap in these marriages would often qualify the pairing as a sex crime, absent the legal formality.
Is there anything more paradigmatically “patriarchal” than thinking the solution to inappropriate sexual interest in an adolescent girl by a much older man is to marry her off to him, so he can molest her with the full support of the community? And there is often very little upside for the girl. International studies show, for example, that being married off under the age of 18 is associated with low education, poverty, partner violence, social isolation, and physical and mental health issues.
Given this litany of ills, we can hardly be surprised to see feminists calling for an end to the practice. And the smashing of this sort of patriarchy is going well: according to figures from Unchained At Last, the annual number of such marriages in America has fallen steadily over recent decades, from over 76,000 in 2000 to around 2,500 in 2018. (In Britain, marriage under the age of 18 was banned altogether in 2019.)
But what about the bit of “patriarchy” that involves the sexual molestation of young women by older men, sometimes with much more power? The smashing of that is not going nearly so well. Consider Epstein Island, or the accusations against Harvey Weinstein — some by women who were very young when they encountered him. Or, recently, allegations that comedian and social media star Russell Brand sexually assaulted four women between 2008 and 2013. One of them was just 16 at the time.
“Male desire,” of course, being dirty, shameful, exploitive, abusive, and violent. “Not all men,” naturally. Just very large numbers of them, as the author reminds us, as if grown men in western countries regularly marry teenagers.
“Female desire,” of course, and female behavior, is always sugar and spice and everything nice. To speak negatively of baby trapping, paternity fraud, abusive women (who exist in at least equal numbers to abusive men) or the misandrist meat grinder of “family courts,” as we call them in the US, would of course be misogynistic, bigoted and wrong.
We do next to nothing to protect men from being abused by women. And there are few defenses against vengeful exes, or decade old allegations.
But of course we must sound the alarm when women throw themselves at older, male celebrities, and end up with broken hearts or psychic scars.
I would repeat a comment made the other day ‘What I cannot understand is why these type of articles always hold the man responsible for the sexual acts and seem to suggest that the young women are helpless victims who cannot control themselves. It is further compounded by the fact that many of these complaints are being made years after the event, in some cases decades. Why were they not made at the time?
Come on Mary please explain why in your words ‘young girls’ indulge in these sexual activities is it because they can’t help themselves ?
Probably for the same reason that if someone is a victim of crime, we don’t blame them. For example, if someone is scammed online, it is not helpful or right to put the blame on the victim’s naivite (however true), with the implication that the solution is not so much to pursue the scammer but to tsk-tsk the scammed. That said, Harrington did not pick up on a rather obvious way forward – to raise women and girls awareness of & skills in dealing with predators and how to tell the differennce betweem them and ‘over enthusiatic men’. A friend told me of being frozen in alarm on seeing a masturbating man beside her on the tube – shortly afterwards a hearty woman on the opposite seat saw what was happening and shouted, ‘put your d**k away mister’, whereupon he scrambled off like a rat. The problem and the solution.
“Victim of crime” implies not being party to the act.
That is correct. The assumption is that there was coercion – (which is all on a scale from threatening your children with a gun at one end, to peer pressure at the other). My friend on the train, and the aforementioned scammer were not ‘party to the act’ in the way I think you mean (co creators, sharing responsibility). Only those with direct knowledge of the Brand situations know what happened (though as Harrington pointed out in the video with Freddie, he may well think he was just being horny) – but we are allowed to discuss and opine, we are not jurors, police or judges, but commenters. Myself, I find the Brand accusers credible, and the Brand supporters credulous. If I have to default to a supposition, it’ll be that the women is probably the one telling the truth – because it is incredibly common – just ask the women in your life (or many men who’ve been in boarding school or prison).
Peer pressure on girls to sleep with hot famous rich celebrities is not “coercion”.
So innocent. Hope you never find out the proportion of rape accusations police estimate are false (when they’re allowed to speak off the record, of course). And that’s just with ordinary men.
Think about how often in recent years very public rape allegations turned out to be false. Pretty often!
The idea that women are probably telling the truth here just because they’re women is the misandry this thread is dunking on.
Coercion – the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.
As I wrote, peer pressure is the very mildest form of coercion. Like squashing a bug is the mildest form of killing. Coercion need not even be bad – you could, for example, use coercion to stop someone from commiting a crime.
Hope you never find out the proportion of rape accusations police estimate are false
I hope you have evidence of that? Of course I don’t, because that would be a terrible thing. I have some though – the FBI estimates 8% of accusations are false; NIH 2-10 %;CPS ; whilst CPS study found 5,700 prosecutions of rape and 35 of false accusations over a year & half period. Moreover anyone claiming they know the true stats, must be lying as the whole thing is shrouded in unknowns – he said/she said. That said, what I know from first and second hand evidence is that men’s sexuality is intense and frequently gets them into ridiculous and/or dodgy situations; and that the process of making a rape accusation is very unpleasant, likely to fail, and so probably (you seem to have ignored that qualifier in my previous post) not likely to made falsely – but of course it can and does happen.
Think about how often in recent years very public rape allegations turned out to be false. Pretty often!
Are you perhaps basing your opinions on a few high- profile cases – a classic bias. From a Scottish government report:
“Public perceptions of rape reporting are often skewed by misinformation, particularly around the issue of false allegations. Claims that these are common are not supported by research. Meanwhile, individual police officers, the men’s rights movement, popular culture and social media continue to reinforce both the myth and the damage it causes”
I think you are a bit too far out on this one:
‘Coercion’ means something that is by definition bad and unacceptable. But it hardly makes sense to say that peer pressure is by definition unacceptable. In real life just about all decisions, are taken under some pressure and it makes no sense to say that sex should be an exception. How many people would do the washing up, clean the bathroom after use, or keep going to work if not under (sometimes considerable) pressure?
The CPS study is misleading – the number of prosecutions are *not* a good guide to the number of crimes. Prosecutions depend on what evidence is available, CPS resources, and a judgement whether prosecution is in the public interest. I gather that the CPS – quite reasonably – is reluctant to prosecute for false accusation, lest they discourage people with genuine accusations from coming forward. Shortest counterargument: If we think the 35 prosecutions for false accusation reflect the number of occurrences, we must also accept that the number of rapes in the UK is not much more than 5700, and that it is wrong to talk about the rapes that do not lead to prosecution.
Your 8%, 2-10% false accusations are actually decent numbers for the available literature, but your conclusion that ‘Claims that [false accusations] are common are not supported by research’ is not correct. Consider: Rape cases very rarely have a way of proving what happened – you can establish sex, but not consent (or its absence). So the best you can do in research is to look at a given material and decide which cases are false – to some standard of proof. Not surprisingly, the tougher the standard of proof a researcher selects, the fewer false accusations she finds. To get a proper picture you would have to divide in three groups: definitely false, definitely true (by the same standard of proof), and ‘do not know’. Only nobody does that. And since the ‘do not know’ group could easily be anywhere from a quarter to three quarters of the total, that underestimates how many false cases there could be.
A further complication is that rape requires not only that there was a lack of consent, but that the perpetrator knew or could reasonably be expected to know that there was no valid consent. That leaves a lot of room for cases where the victim not only had an awful time, or even definitely did not feel she was consenting when it happened, but the accused could still be justified in believing that he had consent. Those are the cases where the victim has a lot of motivation to go to the police, but the final judgement (with perfect information) would still be that no crime took place. I wold not call them false accusations exactly, since the accuser is quite likely sincere, but that still does not make the accused guilty.
In short, it is less simple than you seem to think.
‘Coercion’ means something that is by definition bad and unacceptable.
No, it literally doesn’t. Some dictionary examples:
“Yet no society can survive without coercion.
“Mixed mode arithmetic and assignment is permitted with invisibly overloaded operators and automatic type coercions.
“These same Americans generally accept the soft coercion of friendship or love and, often, the hard coercion of authority relations such as adult and child, or boss and worker.
In any case the definition issue is tangential to my point, which if you read the thread was rebutting the claim – “Hope you never find out the proportion of rape accusations police estimate are false” – with it’s explicit claim that it is wrong to assume that a women is probably telling the truth. Y’all see to be struggling with the meaning of probably.
We could solidify this by putting some numbers on it. What, according to you, is the proportion of rape accusations where the accused is guilty according to law, given that everything is fully known? I would say we know the probability of a rape accusation being correct is somewhere between 30% and 98%. My best guess (see my last post) is maybe 85-90%, but that is not because I know; it is because I think that whatever the true numbers, this gives about the right degree of (dis)belief for someone who might end up sitting on a jury.
What is yours, and why?
As for ‘coercion’, the use of ‘force or threats’ as you say, it does carry the implication of something bad, even if people say it is sometimes acceptable. If you want to say that a fair degree of pressure is an unavoidable norm in human interactions (as I do) you have to use a different word.
I’m ok with your guesstimate – 85-90%, and so it is fair to say that it is probably the case that an accusation, is genuine (absent all other data). I think Norman was for some reason, thinking I am in denial about there being a great many false accusations; or thinking as though we are jurors in a law court rather than commenters on an opinion site (e.g. in the former, a 90% certainly, based on general stats is absolutely no grounds to convict). As for the issue of coercion – I was simply clarifying to WC/NP that my ‘victim of crime’ scenario was one in which I assume malicious coercion from the perp. WC seemed to be rolling out the ‘victim is not innocent’/she wanted it trope.
Close enough. I still think we disagree somewhere (phrases like the ‘victim is not innocent’ trope sound to me like you are taking for granted that the accused is 100% guilty and deliberately delegitimizing anybody who wants to consider messy situations that could arise through miscommunication and misunderstandings from both sides). But we seem to agree abnout the main facts, at least.
Thanks for engaging.
I’m surprised I’m disagreeing with you about this. But perhaps not, as your paradigm of sexual relations seems to be entirely liberal and transactional. It treats sex in a fundamentally trivial way rather than the powerful, dark, even tragic force our culture used to recognise.
“Coercion” applied to one’s partner to do to he washing up in no way compares with trying to pressurise a much younger inexperienced girl (or boy for that matter) into bed. And that guy usually knows exactly what he is doing.
A solution in that moment but he will do it again because it’s a compulsion.
True. But then so is breathing, and I think I’ll keep doing that!
Girls are fed fantasies from when they are very small. It is not about sex, but romance, which makes interpret as sex. I was young once! It is also very hard fir girls to be sexual without attracting the attentions of older boys and men who see them as “jail bait”. Girls who “indulge” their desires are still labelled s**t, w***e, gagging for it. Boys aren’t tarred with the same brush. Therefore girls and young women who are abused are reluctant to come – Shame, selfblame, the impact they think it might have on their families, and the threat that they will not be believed because that man is such a wonderful person… Sexual abuse is about power, the power a man has over a women and very occasionally ( less than 5% of sexual abuse is perpetrated by women on men, boys or other females) women over boys/men. People have to stop thinking men will be men, boys will be boys, when it comes to the sexualusation of young girls and the abuse they face every day for simply bring girls. Again, I know as I was one and it was dailly.!
So at what age to females have agency, because the law should be changed to make that the age of consent. Once they are older, females should be expected to take responsibility for their actions.
Based on the continuous stream of accusations from women sometimes decades after the supposed offence took place it seems like females never gain agency.
Joan of Arc had agency by the time she was 14 years old, leading an army. But that was a few years ago, when working men started working full-time by the age of 10 as they still do in many countries, and well-educated men had composed their first piece of serious classical music or poetry by then. And no, they didn’t all die by the age of 30 as no end of “We have it so good and they had it so bad” fake political statisticians claim. Natural life-term absent fatal disease or war was 90 something, just as today. Richer, braver, effectively longer lives than our pickled perpetual middle-aged children finishing degrees at 25 or 26.
When proven rapes are convicted and not excused on ground that the rapist is going to suffer harm to reputation, career etc etc etc
Cosby, Danny Masterson – two trials. Very hard to get convictions even with two famous blokes who were blatantly using drugs to get what they wanted.
Should I remind you that until mid 1990s there was no such thing as raping your wife.
Agency my arse.
Rapists do not care and they know there is an 85 per cent chance they will get away with it .
Maybe Islam has it right? ..you certainly make it sound like girls/young women are not safe to let out on their own.. far too easily led, far too vulnerable, far too gullible. Men on the other hand are always guilty, often of just being men.. Mind you, over the several decades I’ve lived on the planet I’ve experienced the complete opposite! Females are wily, street smart, know exactly what they want and how to get it too.. Then when they get too old, or develop morals, or smell easy money they become converts!
I’ve upvoted you, because there is truth in what you say. I’m also tired of many of the same things. But there is also whataboutery: it’s perfectly reasonable for a writer to tackle one issue at a time without making reference to all the other unfairnesses in the world.
Its dishonest to do so when they are entwined as they are.
I hear a lot about “whataboutism” these days, David, which didn’t even exist as a word until very recently. I agree that it’s reasonable to “tackle one issue at a time,” but it’s surely just as reasonable to place each in its larger context.
It’s true that an argument on one side is not right or wrong just because the same argument occurs on the opposing side–which would be a non sequitur and therefore prove nothing. If A commits a crime and B commits the same crime, for instance, that in no way excuses A.
Nonetheless, pointing out parallels of this kind can be useful and even necessary for an entirely different reason: to reveal the hypocrisy of double standards. I found this over and over again in debates over misandry and misogyny. The existence of misandry doesn’t make the existence of misogyny right, but it does suggest that we need to take both forms of hatred seriously and look for the underlying causes of hatred in any form.
Otherwise, we have no way of insisting on moral accountability for moral (or legal) double standards. “Whataboutism,” despite the sneer that underlies this word (coined for defensive purposes in debates over ideology), is a perfectly legitimate and even necessary feature of moral discourse.
Sure – but we shouldn’t expect that in every article. And Mary’s track record is pretty good. There are some one sided feminists on Unherd, but she isn’t one of them.
I could let that go, David, because you do get my point. But I won’t, because I’ve heard and read the word “whataboutism” too often. And, in this age of concept creep and linguistic inflation, it’s by no means the only problematic word. By now, this one has become part of common parlance (as distinct from academic jargon). Consequently, it represents conventional wisdom and thus undermines moral clarity. Someone needs to challenge it, so I do. But I was referring to your (uncharacteristic) comment, not to Harrington’s article.
A message says that I’ve already said this, but I can’t find it anywhere.
I could let that go, David, because you do get my point. But I won’t, because I’ve heard and read the word “whataboutism” too often. And, in this age of concept creep and linguistic inflation, it’s by no means the only problematic word. By now, this one has become part of common parlance (as distinct from academic jargon). Consequently, it represents conventional wisdom and thus undermines moral clarity. Someone needs to challenge it, so I do. But I was referring to your (uncharacteristic) comment, not to Harrington’s article.
I once read that ‘Whataboutery’ is short-hand for saying “Calling me a hypocrite, while likely true, doesn’t necessarily advance your argument.”
My argument, UnHerd, is precisely that we need to challenge hypocrisy. Even hypocrites can be correct in this or that case, it’s true, but calling attention to their hypocrisy in general is by no means irrelevant or trivial in public discourse. And irrelevance or triviality is precisely what the word “whataboutism” actually connotes. It’s a convenient rhetorical device that people use in order to escape from the need to argue in good faith–that is, to discuss a conflict’s larger context.
Was it okay for Mary H to invoke names like Epstein and the Rotherham groomers into the same box as RB.. has he been tried in a court of law? No.. but he haa been tried by so-called journalists and by every holier than thou, self appointed judges of moral conduct who always seem crawl our from under rocks or ooze up out of the slime to act as judge, jury and executioner! Good Christians all no doubt happy to throw stones knowing they are without sin themselves.
Curiously I was happy to lob the odd brick when said Celebrity was all the rage, and the BBC, MSM etc didn*t agree with me but supported him.
Ironically, I now agree, no matter how repugnant I found/find him (though I did begin to wonder if he had found God & repented of this former life), he is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
PS IF we were in Sodom and Gomorrah, and Lot was asking to find only 10 Christians, good or otherwise, to save us from the Wrath of God, I’d be ordering my fire resistant hazmat suit now.
In case you missed it, this article is about young, underage girls. We are not talking about adult women. If you don’t understand that older men should not take advantage of girls of this age, then something is wrong. Anyone who has children of that age understands how vulnerable and impressionable they are. Old(er) men who take advantage of them are predators.
But it’s ok for boys the same age to take this advantage, that is the American morality. But not so satisfying for the young girl.
Young boys are vulnerable and impressionable too, education by parents and school is the key.
Why do you say underage? There are no allegations of him having sex with anyone below the age of consent, which is of course sixteen in this country.
Why are you so sure that it’s not the teenagers taking advantage of the older men? Countless girls get countless chances and opportunities that would not be offered to a boy of the same age.
Anyone under the age of eighteen is still considered a child, regardless of whether they are legally able to have sex. An adult is supposed to be the one who uses their brain here, not something else. Since this involves a ‘relationship’ between an adult and a minor, there is by definition an imbalance of power. So there is no question of the minor benefiting here. The adult should know better and keep their hands to themselves.
Age of consent means the 16yo has the autonomy and does not have to get permission from mummy, daddy, you or me.
As a society we have legislated not to replace her judgment of what is best with our one, as to whether she “benefits” from what she chooses to do.
There is no general law about imbalances of power between over 18s and under 18s: Brand wasn’t her teacher for instance.
What should be happening is a separate matter, on which I think we would largely agree. However it is important to distinguish what is right from what is legal. they are not the same thing.
It’s a bit of a childish discussion to talk about the legal aspect. What it’s really about here is that adults of a certain age should have the decency and moral values to know that you don’t go to bed with someone so young, regardless of whether they are legally old enough to have sex. It is clearly an abuse of power if you only give someone chances and opportunities if they go to bed with you.
I don’t remember being asked as part of the ‘We’.
Though I suppose that is the case in so many matters Society legislates on these days.
No they are not considered a “child” for these purposes. Otherwise it’d be illegal to have sex with 16 year olds, which it isn’t. The law is clear on this. There’s no underage involved anywhere.
Would a teacher get away with it?
It’s not their hands we’re concerned about.
I’ve noticed recently that more female teachers are being accused of having sex with their underage students. It’s an interesting dilema as to whether it should be considered rape because it’s a male. There’s a series currently on Hulu called ‘A Teacher’ that deals with the many aspects of the topic.
The majority of research does not show that there are as many abusive women as there are abusive men, especially when it comes to domestic/relationship abuse. I grew up in a household where the domestic abuse was perpetrated by my mother not my father do I am not condoning female in make abuse. I know the damage it does to families. My partner is 13 years older than me so I understand done if the attraction that women have for older men, and no, he is not wealthy, no big house or yacht!!
There is a clear demarcation between women, aged 18 + who “throw themselves at older men” and girls who are married off to be abused by older men. No right minded soul should ever think a man over the age of 20 marrying a under 16 year old girl is okay and the older the man, the more likely there is to be abuse. Society needs to stop pandering to this “make desire” and see it for what it is, sexual, abuse, plain and dimpke, no matter the man or the culture/ society.
There’s nothing inherently abusive about “male desire” per se, MJ, because sexual desire of any kind is at least partly innate (that is, not the result of cultural fashion or personal caprice, let alone of reason). What can indeed be abusive, however, is the behavioral response to desire. I’m attracted sexually to young men, for instance, and I see nothing inherently wrong with that. Others are attracted to young boys or young girls. I don’t see anything wrong with those desires, either, but I do see something wrong with acting on either of them in this (or perhaps any) cultural context.
It requires a lot of wisdom and courage to muster the accurate words that you so perfectly articulated.
You know what’s a great solution to not getting “baby-trapped”? Keeping it in your pants. Don’t have sex with women you don’t want to spend your life with. Either at home or in court. Hey presto.
Remind me who kills themselves more because of societies pressures on them?
Very large numbers of sexually abused people actually. Of both genders.
Women suffer equally from suicidal ideation.
My understanding is that men kill themselves more because men are more violent than women, more able to go through with the act. They kill other people more than women do too after all.
There is a lot of truth to this. MeToo, Weinstein, articles like this. The liberation of female sexuality has unfortunately resulted in a corresponding demonization of male sexuality. Some of that is historically justified, as for most of history, women were at the mercy of men in some form or fashion. We all know about the historical practice of child marriage. It still occurs in many places. This is a tragedy, of course, but everyone knows this by now. We’ve beaten this horse nearly to death. We know about the propensity of some men to desire and exploit underage women, and most of us are chomping at the bit to see them punished for their bad behavior, when it is actually criminal. If there’s a sexuality we’re in denial about, it’s female sexuality, as the trope of the teenage girl swooning over the rock star or the jet setting playboy is as alive and well as ever. Many powerful people exploit this for various self-serving reasons almost never written about by feminists. Many of the cases cited could be interpreted as being just as problematic from the point of view of female desire as well. Certainly, because the male is older and typically in a position of authority, the legal responsibility falls upon him alone to be the adult, but we are kidding ourselves if we think that a sixteen to eighteen year old girl is incapable of understanding how to entice male interest and has zero agency. Keep in mind the media cases we here about are from the ones who regretted their encounter and felt coerced. How many other women do we not hear about who enthusiastically participated in these flings with celebrities and didn’t feel compelled to talk about it decades later. How many who do talk about it now would have told a very different story at the time it happened? The most illuminating portrayal of this particular problem was a satire produced by two men, an episode of South Park from 2009 “The Ring”. Go watch that sometime. Companies sell sexuality to women just as much as men, even children. When we see a commercial of a woman in bikini drinking a Budweiser, we bemoan male desire and fret about the ‘patriarchy’, but when attractive male rock stars spray audiences of teenage girls with white foam, nothing is said, except by a couple of instigating satirists. Women are often attracted to power and status for the same questionable reasons men are attracted to underage girls. We are all, to some extent or another, at the mercy of our biological imperatives, the man to seek fertility and promiscuity, the female to seek status and material wealth. The origin of these drives is the same, the evolutionary push to pass genes to the next generation, but what was optimal for reproduction fifty thousand years ago isn’t necessarily optimal now and our biological urges are somewhat inconvenient. It would be good to acknowledge both sides of this particular coin.
If men behave decently they probably have little to worry about…
And men targetting underage girls is the subject here…
Very well put!
That’s what you are: misogynistic, bigoted and wrong. In a matriarchy, creeps like you are sent to the castration shed…
Misandrist, bigoted and wrong!
Harrington has written a real click-bait article, with Unherd advertising it accordingly as ‘sacrificing young girls’.
She assumes what she purportedly sets out to prove. Heavily laden with pejorative wording. Really not up to Unherd’s usual objective standards.
This amounts to rather desperate special pleading. Apart from anything else the male form of abuse is much more common than the female, but anyway “two wrongs don’t make a right”
It’s also rather disingenuous – what about if some sleazeball 50 year old was grooming your 16 year old daughter?
He doesn’t have to be 50 years old, a sleazeball of any age is all the qualification necessary to have fathers up in arms.
I have a few examples of male behaviour and female behaviour that are possibly relevant to the discussion. They determine my views but how accurate they are to others is moot.
I am a white heterosexual male, now elderly. Some 30/40/50 years ago (the events I will refer to were years apart) I was involved in education. Student, then teacher.
As a student in the early/mid 70’s I was attracted to fellow female students, and after one or two mis-steps (A product of a Catholic Boys school my female social skills were rather gauche) I found a girl-friend who I eventually married and who has managed to put up with me ever since.
As a student sportsman, I was loud and unpleasant when drunk. However, that unpleasantness was confined to lewd songs sung loudly and stupid drinking games. Now I actually like women. Yet it appeared that so many of my team mates did not appear to do so.
I regularly found myself absenting myself from the bar and their company because of their bragging about relationships with their supposed girl-friends. How much was true or not I don’t know. BUT I soon realised that some of my team-mates were best avoided off the pitch as I found their tales sickening and the damage to the reputations of their supposed girlfriends horrifying. I particularly avoided them if I was with my girlfriend.
I struggled to understand how they could repeat such things to their friends then laugh and denigrate the girls they were supposed to have some feelings for.
Eventually I left Uni and went into teaching. I was glad to leave by then.
For some reason I returned after a few years for a re-union and mixing in the bar with the current sports members I was horrified to discover that compared to the depravities I was hearing as funny stories from the current students, the lot I had thought depraved suddenly just appeared to be stupid and sleazy.
Quite frankly I believed that I listened to what was borderline gang sexual assaults, assuming they were true of course. I couldn’t believe they were true, BUT the fact that these students thought it funny meant I never returned for a reunion. I wonder to this day how many of those now men could ever expect to have a loving relationship with a woman IF they had that attitude toward any of them!
The next time I was shocked was some 15 years later. Supply teaching in a comprehensive I was repeatedly asked back because I believed in discipline – a dodge city style admittedly or perhaps a war zone style. My opinion being that either I was ruled in the classroom and life was pleasant for almost all, or else it was a war zone and that resulted in collateral damage.
As a consequence I would stand at my Laboratory door on class changes and ensure that my authority was projected the length of the corridor for students I recognized as being ‘my class.
One day, across the corridor, from me, a permanent member of staff appeared to be doing the same thing. However a 15 year old boy came along, not one of mine, his arms draped around the necks of 2 girls of the same age & same class.
As he arrived at the other classroom, he said to the teacher on passing into the classroom. “These are my bitches.”
Only the fact he’d disappeared into the classroom before I could react saved an embarrassing scene. Because my class pupil or not, I’d have grabbed him by the scruff of the neck & detached him from the girls and demanded of them first
“Are you going to let HIM refer to you like that?”
Then I’d have dragged him along to the head, regardless of what the consequences for me would have been.
I was totally shocked the permanent teacher didn’t go in and grab the boy and do the same. Soon after I gave up teaching altogether. What were we teaching those girls and boys by letting that behaviour go on?
Then another 10 years on circumstances meant I ended up at a primary in a poor district. I was a part-timer covering sick leave in a technical capacity though teaching reading and basic maths. I worked, fortunately by that time, in a semi-closed library area but clearly visible to passers by in the adjacent open hall.
The youngster were clearly children, 9,10, 11, because it was a primary. (In secondary sometimes a 13/14 year old was not quite so easy to see as a child unless one knew their age, but I digress, the needs were the same, but the development was not.)
Many of the children were from broken homes, and I can only assume that many of the girls had not come across an adult male who was so attentive to their needs. I mean educational needs, I was dealing with poor readers poor at maths. Those generally left behind, so in a very small group. Usually about 12 pupils often 50/50 split boys and girls.
The whole idea was to provide increased attention to those needs. Encouragement as well as help.
The effect on the girls without fathers was emotionally difficult to cope with as I had not been warned. The first time was a shock.
I was kneeling down between two young girls, close friends, after helping one i turned to help the other. While doing so I suddenly became aware of a small arm linking through mine, and a small head resting on my arm, turning surprised, I found myself looking closely into the face of the young girl.
She was hugging my arm and smiling up at me. At the end of the class at lunch time, I would dismiss the pupils, then on stepping out into the hall would find a number of the girls waiting and before I’d taken two steps both arms would be grabbed and I would be weighed down by up to half a dozen young girls wanting to hold my hand or arm as I walked to the staff-room.
Fortunately dinner ladies would help me gently disentangle myself. I mention this because when those girls went on to senior school. I wondered what happened there. My experience in senior schools was similar. There were young girls, in what I used to know as 3rd and 4th year (so 13/14) who also appeared to need a male father figure. The problem by then, however, is some 14 year olds have not the bodies of 9,10 year old children.
The girls I mention who needed male attention were not in my opinion being driven by sexual thoughts that I as an adult male may experience. Of that I am certain. They all seem desperate to satisfy an emotional need, not physical. No matter how many times I tried to gently explain that certain things were not acceptable, including some of the manipulations of the uniform and standing so close to me as to touch me, it was an unending effort.
Fortunately for me I was happily married to my beautiful wife, also a teacher and often a welcome confidant as to the issues I faced.
Also I believe I understood the gap in the lives that some of the girls had, I having come from a broken home.
Even so I very soon opted out of mixed sex schools because of what I think (and I’m no psychologist) is the danger of genuine concern being misinterpreted. That was 35/40 years ago. Now it must be almost impossible, and may account for the lack of male teachers.
Though in my case, perhaps it was more because of the emotional stress of trying to walk a very very difficult line between NOT encouraging a too close a relationship BUT also not inflicting further damage on potentially damaged children.
The Girls appeared to have an emotional need, but for me, it was a dangerous thing because the older girls were not easily discernible as children. That is I think where the problem lies, the male/female sexuality is NOT in my opinion the same (no I have no qualifications to claim that is so, it is just my belief), and I dread to think what the male examples I mentioned earlier would have done had these girls chosen them.
Though I point out the bad male examples were not picking on girls much younger. BUT perhaps the Victorian idea of protecting girls isn’t as bad an idea as many think.
As I said earlier, I do not think men and women think the same way, nor do I believe they see relationships the same way nor do they experience a physical relationship in the same way.
I’m open to any female on here saying I’m wrong, but, and I always find this amusing as it is inverts the classic male line “My wife doesn’t understand me!”
Despite all the years of marriage etc, 51 in all, not always a smooth path. Now, frighteningly, often my wife and I not only think the same thing at the same time, we then say what we think at the same time, such that I say we are 99.9999999% compatible. Yet I still don’t understand her when it comes to emotional and physical love. I know she loves me, but how she does so can be very confusing, if that makes sense which may not, perhaps I’m the problem.
The result of that essay being, I think we do need to protect young girls and women, and with fewer fathers around to do it, there perhaps may lie the real problem.
Though perhaps a counter-argument to my ‘lack of fathers’ is the fact of how often one of the celebrities in the news was at odds with celebrity fathers when it came to ‘dating’ their daughters.
Abusive women do NOT exist in “at least equal numbers to abusive men”. This comment is so vile and self-serving in its entirety it’s worthy of Russell Brand. Such vast self-pity and entitlement. The men I know and love are nothing like you, thank God.
One issue I have with this article is the elision of the phrases ‘young girls’ and ‘very young girls’ into an argument that is supposedly about 16 year olds. Surely they are young women, very young women if you prefer.
If one admits they are young women, then the question becomes what are we going to do about young women sleeping with older men, and in consequence getting into unequal relationships.
There seems little doubt that the cases mentioned here were at the time consensual. Subsequent treatment within the relationship notwithstanding, if ‘we’ are supposed to be ‘doing something’ about the whole older-guy- sleeps-with-willing-teenage-girl it would necessarily have to deny her agency until whatever age it is that we wish to impose as a once size fits all definition of ‘old enough’. Otherwise, you need to let her do what she wants. In these cases that appears to have been to sleep with a rich, glamourous, famous guy. There are sound evolutionary reasons why she might want to. She might want to impress her friends too, or simply live the high life.
That these women later in their life have regrets about their younger selves’ behaviour doesn’t mean that society should step in and hamfistedly start imposing other peoples’ norms on young women.
Who knows, Alice might have gotten lucky, gotten married and cashed out through divorce at some later stage. She wouldn’t have been the first attractive female to do so. Worth the risk to some. Not to others. Are the others to impose their caution on the some?
And yes, men can be assholes within relationships. Women are, of course, spotless in this regard.
Men are told that all interaction with women must be consensual.
The problem for men seems to be that women frequently withdraw consent a decade later.
Other women, scenting blood in the water and a chance to destroy a prominent man, eagerly pile on with their own withdrawal of consent.
The man is left with the impossible task of proving innocence against a social media assassination attempt.
So you see no similarity between this withdrawal of consent and, say, the gender issue where women, not men, are cancelled and attacked and so feel forced to “agree” that trans women are women only to realise later that they didn’t actually agree and that the weight of, usually male, judgment and threats and aggression was what forced them to publicly go along with it? You don’t see that similarity played out in many different issues across society?
I see many similarities between a multitude of things.
Are you reprimanding me because I didn’t list them all?
With respect to trans-women, I’ve seen many young women marching and campaigning in support of them. In fact, young women supporters are usually by far the majority of the supporters and the most vocal. Male supporters are few and far between.
What about the ones wearing dresses and screaming, ‘TERF’?
Exactly.
I dislike Brand intensely and always have and this is no defence of him. But as my wife pointed out, I also can’t escape the observation that Alice had all the power at multiple stages in the proceeding relationship and chose to give it away. She was under no obligation to give him a moment of her time. I’ve never read an article decrying young women for not disciplining their fascination with noisy, narcissistic, arrogant, high status men. Some responsibility should be recognised for our own poor decision making, people who think the bad things that happen to them are always someone else’s fault never grow up. The underlying implication in so much of the conversation around these things is that men are accountable for their actions but women are not. That is not equality by any measure I can discern.
Her parents knew where she was going and allowed it to happen. What about their collusion?
Some of those parents are hoping to jump aboard the money train if they are lucky enough.
Not to mention the BBC providing taxis to collect her from school (according to one source!)
This is a relationship between a 16 year old school girl and a thirty something year old wealthy celebrity. That’s why he is being held accountable for his actions. He was well into adulthood. She was still a child.
Legally she was considered old enough to make that decision. Age of consent in the UK is 16 unless it can be proven to be CSE and there has been no mention of this.
As harsh as this sounds, SHE chose to engage in sexual relations with him. It might not have been as satisfying as she’d hoped but not every man is. You learn and you move on.
At this rate we’ll be changing the age of consent to 30 as it seems that no woman wants to take responsibility for the bad decisions they make in regards to their love life! Sadly, many women make poor decisions, usually because they are shallow and/or naive, but they’ll remain naive until they have experience (usually bad) to learn from. Let’s stop protecting them from learning valuable lessons.
The main allegation is that he was orally raping her and she had to stop him by punching him in the stomach.
She never consented to that particular act, ok?
I find Harrington’s article a tad patronising in places but it is accurate about child marriage which is mostly female
Germaine Greer published a weird picture book about fancying young teens called The Boy. It attracted flak as it should have done.
People assume that young teen boys are not bothered by having relationships with older female teachers . Not necessarily true.
The problem is not male desire per se but a selfish, immature self indulgent, narcissistic belief that it is the job of the desired whether male or female to relieve it or indulge it otherwise the poor bloke is being denied a necessity.
It is also the belief that when your desire is publicly expressed in inappropriate ways – including porn images being visible on newsagent shelves – those who think you need to keep it private are prudes and killjoys.
I’ll never forget this guy I was doing some teacher training with in Madrid becoming very upset because there was gay porn at eye level everywhere. He wasn’t used to seeing someone in his own category with spread buttocks etc
Feminists have taken the flak and the hatred for merely pointing out this ridiculous, one sided inability to understand that being fancied is not always flattering .
Consent and agency are not one time events. It is not a job contract .She was attracted to him and charmed by him but didn’t sign up for the rough stuff. Looking back, she found the whole relationship problematic.
The issue with the Dispatches program is that it did dilute some of the more serious allegations with groupies becoming upset about being dumped. The real problem there was not that they were upset but that the companies were enabling and pimping for him, eg getting numbers.
For the record, I was assaulted in a long term relationship and at the time I was very ill. Usually I would have fought back but even if I had, the fact that it was my boyfriend would have made it hard to prosecute.
Jurors rarely convict when rape happens within relationships. This is something this girl does know which is why she has gone the trial by media route.
As a teacher I’ve been in situations when someone a lot younger has had a crush – you deal with it like a responsible grown up – kindly.
Men bang on and on about responsibility but until you start to care about the prevalence of rape, stop denying who is doing it, and start being part of the solution, not the problem, no-one takes you seriously.
You, not the person you fancy, are responsible for dealing with your desire in a way that does no harm to others.
That applies to both genders but has traditionally only been applied to women.
Grow up and get over it.
She had obviously totally failed to engender any respect for her in him. She was and is a retard.
I’ve been saying raise the Age of Consent to 32 for years. As a joke,a bitter joke,it’s an odd world when a ridiculous joke you make starts to look like an actual policy!
You cannot in law relating to sex be a child over the age of consent.
Was she really a “child”? In what sense? How do you know? The cultural and even legal definition of that word varies greatly from one time and place to another. And the variation is not due merely to episodes of cultural permissiveness or repression.
Historically and cross-culturally, children have become adults when they’ve been able to take on the responsibilities of adult men or women–usually after demonstrating their readiness before the community affirms it in a rite of passage (an important feature of communal life that we now lack).
I can assure you that my own mental and physiological status at the age of 13, for example, had nothing whatsoever to do with adult manhood in my world, even though the Jewish community formally pronounced me a “man” (a.k.a. a bar mitzvah). My very remote ancestors, however, lived in a very different world.
In most or all societies until very recently, at any rate, both boys and girls are adults by virtue of being ready to marry and have children–long before their remote descendants graduate from college or even high school.
By the same token, what makes you think that “he was well into manhood”? I see no evidence that all or even most men and women in their thirties are mature adults. On the contrary, many of them live in a hedonistic society that acknowledges desire but not duty. And that, unlike puberty, really is a product of cultural fashion (although even the age of puberty varies by tune and place, which could be partly influenced by cultural factors).
As soon as I got a job just after leaving school aged 15 I was informed I was an adult,I had to pay my own way,and make my own decisions. I was told that by my parents. I made one bad decision aged 17,to enter into a relationship.
Because I thought it was compulsory in our society and if you were not in a relationship much of life’s opportunities like buying a house and travel were not available to you. What a silly Billy I was to think that! Notice I didnt enter this relationship out of passionate romantic sentient feelings of love and in order to assuage the raging hormones coursing through my body. LOL. The late sixties to mid seventies was big on raging hormones coursing through teenage bodies. At least I learned that relationships can be a lot more complex than.a Valentine card and people involve themselves in relationships for many reasons including financial.security,company,the trophy partner,power and a need to control – and the good motivations as well.
I don’t get that ‘Alice” did much that she didn’t want to do at the time.
She never denies she had a consensual relationship. She also says looking back his attitude was controlling and patronising. But the main allegation – please note -was that he orally raped her and she had to punch him in the stomach to stop it
So,not a unique experiece. The mere fact he casually thought he could perpetrate this on her shows that.she had not enforced boundaries or gained his respect and maybe that was because she wanted to be “liked” and knew,if not “liked” the “I’ve got a famous boyfriend” lifestyle would end. She was with him for a while after this,but i.kniw how these dreadful relationships can stagger on due to a not entirely unjustified fear of being alone.
At the time those ones were triumphant smuggies “I’ve got a boyfriend,he’s got a ca-ar”.
No she was NOT a child. In that case either up the Age of Consent to 18 so it tallies with the Legal start of adulthood or make 16 the Legal start of adulthood. How can there be this strange gap when it seems you are/are not a child/,adult. Or make both 21 like it used to be. Or raise the Age of Consent to 32 and with luck everyone will get fed up waiting and give up in the idea. I heard Alice and she was obviously and is a retard. Oddly her “actors” voice and her real voice in another interview were exactly the same.
IF what I read is true, I would be more interested in her mother. What was she thinking?
Probably a trendy liberal luvvie type.
Agreed. Either women have agency or they don’t. If they do, then they are responsible for their own behaviour. If they don’t, then the law should be changed accordingly. A significant number of young women do throw themselves at (desire) pop stars and film stars. David Cassidy said he had a great time. Bowie was well known for his numerous encounters and interestingly, as far as I know, has had no retrospective complaints. Neither has David Cassidy.
David Cassidy and David Bowie may well have been good and considerate in bed, though – -rather than plain abusive which it turns out Russell Brand was.Sex in itself is not the issue, violence, coercion and abuse is.Though, I agree that a girl of 16 is, in principle, capable of deciding and choosing to have sex with someone – no matter what that person’s age.
I suspect Mary’s deeper point is that women should be far more careful and far more picky over who they sleep with; that promiscuous sex is not really very liberating at all, and often has unpleasant and unwished for consequences, especially for women.Russell Brand was like Jimmy Saville. He was continually telling and showing people what he was like – but somehow people chose not to see this.
Precisely my point, responsibility is placed on the woman. Girls and boys should be made aware of the general differences between male and female sexuality during sex education rather than being brainwashed into believing men can be women, taught to question whether they are a girl or a boy and taught that there are 72 genders. I have not mentioned Russell Brand precisely because of the allegations against him, though he was, as he claims to have been, completely transparent about the kind of person he was and so far only a handful out of the thousands (allegedly) have made complaints which is not to excuse anything illegal.
The issue, for the women involved, is that just because you have consented to a relationship or ‘experience’ with someone, you cannot know how it will turn out. Unless a situation is really traumatising, because obviously abusive – then it can just be put down to bad sex and a lesson learned, not to be repeated.
I’m not sure if at 16 ( or at any age) I would have had the confidence, or clarity, to take a matter to the police – especially if the man involved was famous.
I just wonder where this 16 year old’s parents were.
I, effectively, left home at 16 and got up to all sorts. At 16 you are pretty independent and certainly do not involve your parents in your every move. Yes, you are green and naive……but still.
How worldly are the parents? Have they tried to educate and prepare children for some unpleasant realities?A person has a chronological age but there physical and sexual maturities which may be two years in advance but emotionally and intellectually they are two years behind. I suggest the problems occur where unworldly parents have not prepared the child for the world and the physical and sexual maturity are years in advance of the intellectual and emotional.An unworldly sixteen year old girl with a body of an eighteen year old and the mind of fourteen year old is likely to have problems with certain types of men.
What is being ignored is that girls appear to be going through puberty much earlier which can life more difficult. Having the body of sexually mature woman and and the mind of an immature girl cannot be easy.
exactly. I don’t know if it’s any better with parents nowadays but all I got from my mother was “if you get pregnant don’t come home”.
Parents should pass on some on their lessons they have learned from their mistakes. I read somewhere that in mid 19th century many girls did not go through puberty until fifteen or sixteen years of age, some now go through it at eleven years of age or earlier; hence many problems.
There is also background. Children growing up in slums and run down estates have to be more worldly wise otherwise they either will be raped or mugged.
Those children growing up in secure suburban homes with weak naive parents plus have gone through puberty early and have average or below average intellect and emotional maturity, can end up in dangerous situations very quickly. If the Mother has worked undercover as police officer investigating drugs, prostitution , etc and the Father similar or military with anti- terrorism experience, then hopefully the children will have the skills to spot, avoid and if need be, fight their way out of trouble.
It helps children if parents offer a secure loving home and are tough,worldly wise and provide practical life skills. An Aunt advised her daughters to wear tights and sewed a pouch into their bras so if they were mugged or had to drop their handbags they had money for transport. An uncle said if need be, punch the man in the eye with a key, do not get into a car with a child lock on, be prepared to smash a car window with your feet and climb out.
I suggest all women and girls watch Lynsey de Paul’s video on self defence.
Taking Control with Lynsey de Paul (1992) Self Defence For Women – YouTube
As part of school, all girls should be put through the physical and hand to hand combat training women went through in the Special Operations Executive.
Girls need to be be able to back the word NO with effective hand to hand combat skills.
The greater the awareness and skills girls and women possses the greater their freedom, especially from fear.
If Weinstein, Epstein , etc had been crippled by a woman early on, they would have stopped.
and perhaps not having a father is the family.
Me too and went to London like a lamb to slaughter.
The mother knew and approved the liason just as Virginia Guiffre’s mother did. I’m waiting for for “Alice” to sue Brand.
This is the age old problem of ex ante and ex post for which there a few simple answers other than the rapid development of a bs detector, which takes us back to the beginning.
The law provides a very convenient means of stopping matters going to the police when in the hands of well paid lawyers and aimed at not so wealthy or powerful people. Especially in the UK it seems.
Sex education for girls shouldn’t be about what body parts fit where. It should be more in the Jane Austen style. No I dont mean discreet and refined. I’ve only read two of Janes books but heard and read discussions of the others and it can be boiled down to….
make the bastards pay….very unladylike language but Jane Austen.knew how IMPORTANT it was for females to marry even to someone you weren’t that keen on.
No marriage,even if it might not mean.poverty if you were lucky,still meant diminished status and lack of opportunity. And the gate to marriage was not to give.your love freely and unconditionally with no thought of return. Sorry to be so cynical but that’s the sort.of.sex education girls will always need..
As Mungo Jerry put it,” If her Daddy’s rich take her out for a meal,if her.Daddys poor,just do what you feel”. Jane Austen wrote about that.
I believe that one of the 70s rock stars enjoyed urinating in his teenage girlfriends mouth. Not sure if it was done considerately. Also not sure if you get a free pass by being good in bed.
Perhaps it’s just that Bowie et al maintained their coolness – Gary Glitter, for example, less so.
I’m not quite sure of your point to be honest. You seem, maybe, to suggest that David Bowie ” keeping his cool” might be a good cover for abusive sexual practices?
No – I’m saying it may lead to less regret, and less later reframing of what happened as abuse. A woman might still view an encounter with Bowie as positive, and others might share this view. If the exact same thing had happened with Glitter or Saville this would now be associated with shame.
To be clear, I don’t think this is an excuse. I’m trying to understand a double standard.
There’s two sides to this.
I take aside people in their 20s and who are into extreme sex, to work out why they are into it – is it legitimate interest or are they into it because they’ve been habituated to it as being the only way they can get a lover?
But OTOH , It’s also a bit naff to just equate sex that’s extreme because it’s dirty, with more serious forms of exploitation.
Issues relating to one can be cleaned away with incense & a squirt of Fairy Liquid.
The other, not so much.
Not just that people chose not to see what Saville was really like, but he was actually protected by people in the BBC and media.
And I expect anyone who dared to.speak plain got media-shsmed as a boring,no fun,prurient,puritanical,maybe hypocritical,Mary Whitehouse clone who shouldn’t knock it till theyd tried it but if they did try it would be morally bankrupt anyway. I believe Russ wrote books in which he described the sort of rampant sexual predator he was at the time.
Maybe his girlies couldnt read.
Back when John Peel the DJ had a column in radio times he used to boast about taking his pick from the underage girls hanging about outside the USA radio station.he worked in and demanding oral sex off the ones he’d chosen back at his apartment. If he hadn’t timely died just before hitting on famous people became a thing he’d defo be in prison now.
Would you date and/or have sex with, a 16 year-old girl?
If not, why not?
(The current legal definition of a child in the UK and according to UNCRC is anyone under 18. An 18 year-old is a young woman. A 16 year-old is a girl child).
What you have identified is the difference between the law and a code of conduct/ a moral code. Moral codes tend to be culturally embedded and as we are frequently told, we live in a multicultural society. Of course, there are times when the law and moral codes conflict, Rotherham springs to mind. Some cultures do protect women more and there is generally a concordant reduction in women’s freedom/ independence/ rights. This seems natural as freedom to choose implies freedom to choose the action and the consequences of the actions: responsibility. Less responsibility – fewer rights.
Freedom means responsibility and accepting consequences.
Safety comes at the cost of freedom.
You gotta pick one or the other.
Actually, people who want to trade freedom for safety are likely as not to get neither, as ‘safety’ has to be provided by somebody, somebody powerful, and all of human history suggests that power accumulates and seeks to expand itself, almost irrespective of whatever original intentions were had by whoever set down the rules. Individual liberty requires individual people to demand nothing less of their government. The moment we stop demanding liberty, it will be taken away. This is why Jefferson wrote “from time to time the tree of liberty must be cleansed with the blood of patriots and tyrants”. He concluded, so far correctly, that no conceivable government would ever be immune to the effects of humanity’s propensity to acquire and exercise ever greater power over one another. Tyranny will always re-emerge, and only a people who will refuse to give up their liberty and violently defend it if necessary will be able to keep it for any length of time. There is a great deal of Jefferson’s ideal left in America, even if it is out of fashion in the circles of the powerful, the intellectual, and the affluent.
Thank you. Though what is left of Jefferson’s ideal in the US is under direct threat by the combined power of the tech elite, the media, and increasingly, the US government.
The number of new gun owners, on the other hand, speaks to how ingrained the revolutionary ideal is in America. I agree the forces arrayed against traditional America seem vast and powerful, but they aren’t just fighting a group of people, they’re fighting parts of human nature and the history of the US. They are indeed a behemoth, but they’re a behemoth trying to hold back a rising tide.
Somewhat off topic. The US equivalent of the Monster Raving Looney party fancy dress day out in the Capitol does not strike me as an attempt to let the blood of the tyrants who usually occupied it however.
Well, no. For once this really is “not a binary” but an actual spectrum or sliding scale. The problem is where to set the cursor, degrees and kinds of freedom vs. responsibility.
I can’t imagine many less appealing things than a relationship with a teenage girl. I’d rather have a root canal. It’s distasteful, but not illegal. Fact is that people are usually sexually active to some degree by that age so having a higher age limit is fairly pointless.
No but it’s interesting that Harrington has to reach all the way back to the 1970s for egregious examples.
The point is sexual mores change. In previous eras when childbed mortality was high it was in no way unusual for middle aged men of means to marry teenagers if their wife died.
More to the point I remember as a child in the 70s watching things like ‘On the Buses’ where the main character would leer at schoolgirls out of the bus and wolf whistle at them, try to look up their skirts etc in that Carry On sort of way.
Ed ‘Stewpot’ Stewart, the presenter of Crackerjack in the 70s, met his future wife when she was 13 and he was in his twenties. They were married for 30 years.
I also remember in the 70s/80s female sixth formers dating teachers.
None of this would be remotely acceptable today.
What Harrington also fails to point out is that child marriage, where it is still prevalent, IS largely a feature of very backward societies such as Afghanistan or parts of sub-Saharan Africa or the traveller community here in the UK or the Mormons in the US.
The idea that all men should in addition automatically be subject to ‘suspicion’ is really odious and divisive.
A muddled and wrong-headed article.
The late Alan Clarke MP met his wife when she was 15 and he was 29. They married when she was 16 and were together for 42 years until his death.
My wife was 15 and I was 16 when we first met. We were both still virgins when we married and have just celebrated our 61st wedding anniversary.
Sure – because presumably he had a specific thing about her, not a general thing about 15 year old girls.
Fair point to make though. An age difference does not automatically make a relationship predatory.
One swallow doesn’t make a summer.
Being a teenager in the 90s, I clearly remember a ‘newspaper’, The Star maybe? Having a page 3 similar to the The Sun and they would have a 15 year old girl in a mini skirt and topless, arms covering her breasts, with a countdown beside her picture, the countdown being the number of days until she turned 16 and could legally pose fully topless.
I also clearly remember from back then, and see with my own kids who are in their early teens now, the wide range of development between 12-18 year old kids. Some of the boys and girls in that age group can look much older than they are, and are often (both sexes, but overwhelmingly more so the girls) dressed in quite overtly sexualizing clothing. Presumably they do it because they want to? I imagine girls today are similar to girls when I was younger and that a not-insignificant number of them dress and wear make up in order to appear older and gain access to adult spaces such as clubs and bars. They would consider an older male being interested in them as flattering and evidence that they did appear older.
Yes I remember that too. I think that era was the tail end of a very macho, industrial culture born of a mixture of Victorian values (married women stayed at home, young unmarried women were ‘available’, pubs were for blokes) and a large industrial proletariat that was slowly disappearing.
The funny thing is you only really notice how different it was when you see tv from the time.
It’s even noticeable watching 90s movies with my (teenage) kids. If it’s a comedy, the female characters are often just ‘babes’ whose sole purpose is to be alluring eye candy for the hapless male protagonists.
I miss those times.
Jerry Seinfeld suffered no approbation when he was dating 17-year-old Shoshanna Lonstein. Again, if you’re the right kind of person, everyone’s cool with it.
Leonardo Di Capreo is known for only “dating” much younger women. He’s made fun of for this but not criticised.
Ah but child marriage is still prevelant in parts of America. I saw a documentary recently of the very subject. Heart wrenching stories from the mouths of women to whom this had happened. The one that sticks in my mind is that of a black woman who was abused by her pastor and had a baby by him at age ten. Then she was married off to him and had a baby each year till she was god knows what age. Another white woman was married off at age 13. It was the being married that that was the trap because they had no rights to their children or anything else.
Again, an aside, by chance, clearing out my uncles cupboard earlier to day I found an article from 1988 when Shevardnadze, Soviet Foreign Minister was talking about withdrawal from Afghanistan being dependent on the US stopping supplying weapons to the Mujahideen as he feared they were arming ‘extremists’.
The US response:- “We believe that the people of Afghanistan have the right to determine their own future.”
How times change.
Actually, the Children & Young Persons Act 1933 defines a 14-17 yo teenager as ‘a young person’.
In the UK a 16 year old can consent to sex.In my view it should be 18 . Same as the age to marry.
Yes, that seems odd, doesn’t it.
Isn’t one of the complaints the 16 year old is making that Brand called her a “girl” and this is supposedly emotional abuse?
Maybe this article would be taken more seriously, if it weren’t for the timing and the picture of Russell Brand.
Who’s not taking it seriously? Brand does not photograph well, ever.
“One issue I have with this article is the elision of the phrases ‘young girls’ and ‘very young girls’ into an argument that is supposedly about 16 year olds.”
It is either just lazy or deliberate.
In the UK, girls of 16 are still considered children.
Except the age of consent is 16 unless some form of payment/evidence of coercion is made, then it’s CSE. Not sure if the kudos of bedding a celeb can really be considered the same thing.
But they can legally have sex.
Eighteen is legally an adult. Eighteen to twenty something would be a young woman. Sixteen to eighteen is a young girl.
I doubt very much that Mary Harrington thinks women are spotless in relationships. She certainly hasn’t implied such. It is just that this article is about young girls.
There’s no point having the age of consent set at 16 and then calling the 16 year olds ‘young girls’ who are not fair game for all those horny men who want to deflower them. We would need a higher age of consent or some age gap rule.
Sure, but that still will not stop the 16 yr old female from pretending she is 18 or 20 to get into places and be with men the law says she should not.
When I was in my early 20’s there was a gorgeous 16 yr old that worked as a hostess at the restraunt I bartended at. Now, she never told anyone her age, the only person that really knew was the owner. She lived away from her parents with her sister who was 20 in an apartment next to a college. She ended up dating one of the waiters who was 22 or 23. He did not drink and neither did she so no date they ever went on was to a place that she would have to show ID. It was only after a year of dating and a lot of sex that he found out from her sister how old she was. Now, she knew how old HE was, but she kept her age quiet. He never asked. He just assumed that since she was living away from her parents in an apartment, with a car, and with the ability to come and go as she pleased, that she was over 18.
And if they were in the UK, she wouldn’t have had to hide her age as that would be perfectly legal.
But what’s your point?
First: That young women, even as young as 16 can pass for older and will try to pass for older.
Second: That these same young women have sexual and social status desires and that often those desires are not for boys their own age but for men that they see as having more to offer. (note: research shows that on average women will select a man 3-10 yrs older than they are)
Third: That many, if not most of these young women, know precisely what they are doing and precisely what they want. That they are not innocents being mislead.They have agency. Not to say that they are not naive (there is a difference between innocence and naivete) or that the choice to go after an older man is not fraught with risk, but they have agency. Because they have agency they have responsibility for their choices and the consequences.
I have argued for a long time that we have entered some weird period of time where we seem to extend childhood and then adolescence beyond what is healthy or even natural. It is how we end up with 20 somethings that still do not want to grow up. It is how we get 27 yr old men who do not want to stop playing video games and get on with building a life. It is how we end up with young women who are convinced they can party on through their 20’s and put motherhood off until their mid 30’s or even early 40’s only to discover they cannot or cannot without a lot of medical help. It is how we let teenage criminals off with slaps on the wrist which then encourages them to repeat offend until one day they hit that magic age of 18 and the consequences come down hard. And worse, we are neurotic about this. On the one hand we will send kids as young as 17 off to war but on the other they cannot have a beer or rent a car.
Alexander the Great was 16 when he conquered Greece.
How many young women in their teens have run and managed homes successfully throughout history?
I think we underestimate what young adults are capable of and I think we are often naive about what they want and desire and how far the will go to get it.
I also think that our new social norms are in direct conflict with out biological imperatives. That is not to suggest that we should just roll over and reduce ourselves to the animal instincts in ourselves but that we should recognize that they are there and that they influence how we function, and that they exist for a reason. We do not have to like it, we just need to recognize the reality honestly so we can navigate the world.
When I was in Germany some 30 years ago a very astute German said something similar. Many middle class people were taking degrees, masters an doctorates and were not entering the job market until late 20s.
Not long ago until the early 50s to 60s , 16 year olds could go to sea as cadet officersand people could enter apprenticeships at a similar age and be fully trained by the age of 21 years.
For many jobs, Lieutenants in RN/MN , Army, craftsman twenty one was the age when one sufficiently trained to be responsible for a ship as officer of the watch, a platoon, craftsman who could operate fully independently.
What makes a teenager grow up is to enter the world of work and justify their employment to adults.
What is being ignored are certain aspects; girls are going through puberty as early as eleven years old. Also girl may have the physical sexual maturity of several years in advanced of her chronological age and her emotional and intellectual several years behind it. A fourteen year girl with the body of a sixteen year old and the intellect and emotions of a twelve year old is very vulnerable.
The girl you mentioned may be sixteen years old but have the intellect and emotional maturity of an eighteen year old. I think the age of consent at sixteen is correct. What is important is that people receive comprehenive sex education which must include VD and AIDS. Keep marriage at eighteen. Few women will have the emotional maturity to raise children under the age of eighteen and they will unlikely be sufficienlty discerning to chose competent husbands. Educate The Mother and one educates the family.
One thing I discovered teaching, is that many of the ‘disruptive’ pupils did so because they were more than ready and able to live in the adult world of work and wanted to do so. BUT they weren’t allowed. I’ve lost count of the number of ‘problem pupils” I knew of whom I’ve met years on who have made a success of their lives by abandoning the myth that school/academic education should continue to at least 18 and getting out at 16. Which in some cases was still 2 years later than they’d wanted.
Or we could simply castrate all male babies when they are born. But today, that might be a problem as we can’t call a baby with a p***s a “boy” anymore. So perhaps we need to wait until the boy says he’s a boy before we castrate him. Oops, sorry, can’t call him a him these days either.
Many are deflowered earlier.
I always find this an odd topic. It always seems to be viewed through ‘men bad, women/girls blameless’ lens.
Firstly, some women/girls are attracted to men with money, power, access to illicit substances etc. AND are willing to use the tools they have (physical attractiveness) to gain access to these things. I know that’s not a popular opinion, but it is true.
This is after all, not a new phenomenon. It is as old as time itself.
That point aside, there is likely a alcohol/drug element to this. By that I mean men and women drunk or stoned out of their minds often make very bad choices. Shocker!
Jerry Hall and Rupert Murdoch.
Robert De NIro, Mick Jagger, Al Pacino….
I just made that eeeeew face.
Hugh Hefner………
Jackie Kennedy and Aristotle Onassis.
Some men are attracted to girls, or those who appear to be such, AND are willing to use the tools they have (money, power, popularity, access to illicit substances etc) to gain sexual power, domination, abuse and coercion. People close to them look the other way, approve, or enable it.
I know that’s not a popular opinion but it’s true.
Yes. You are absolutely right.
And am I to assume that the enablers, ignorers and approvers of the Russells and Weinsteins of this world were all men?!
I think not.
Russell’s reputation was well known. And yet he appears to not have struggled for options in his sex life. Which then begs the rather obvious question. Why is that?!
This desire for money, power and danger even, flows in both directions. It was ever thus.
“If the allegations against Brand are true, then they fit into part of a much larger pattern…”
But if they’re not, they don’t. Given that you’ve no reason to think they’re true, and the politics of the media persecuting him, and the presumption of innocence, you shouldn’t add his name to the article.
Anyone who has seen Brand’s shows or read his books should not be shocked. He told us what he was like; what he liked to do. He was as overt about his inclinations, preferences and abuses as Jimmy Saville.
More so. And the belated outrage about his practices (ie those short of assault/rape) is a little strange. He was completely open about what he enjoyed, and the women apparently continued to queue up. So far as I can tell women we’re not shocked by his revelations at the time.
You are suggesting ” short of assault or rape” but that is not what the women’s testimonies have revealed. One of the women went straight to the police. The other was just 16 years old and for many obvious reasons did not tell of what happened to her.
‘Women’ are not a uniform group with exactly tne same responses and expectations. Yes, we all have responsibility for our behaviour and choices, but then so does Brand. I don’t suppose anyone goes with a man expecting or wanting to be abused in such a way.
Jane – you’re just misreading me.
One might be expecting to be abused if one had low self-esteem, as many women have.
Let us look at from a male view. Teen age man from a comfortable home is in a pub and say the wrong thing to the wrong man and gets punched across table. The young man was in a pub where enforcers from the local criminal underworld drank and was unable to make an assessment that the hostile man was not someone to whom one made glib comments. Men are free to drink in pubs but it is advisable to make accurate assesment of others and not create a confrontation if one is not good at fighting. This could be said to be blaming the victim. Well there are plenty of nasty people in the World and it is best to avoid areas where they congregate: there are no clean or fair fights on the street.
Saville was not overt.
He was. He frequently made reference to young women and girls, and made lascivious comments and jokes about being found out and ending up in court.
And always kissed women on the lips.
He’s not like Jimmy Saville at all.
No reason to think that they are true? Wow. Apart from the allegations of 4, now 5 women; that fact that Brand has often voiced his predilictions (as did Louis CK – in jokes….); and that many insiders (including his ex wife Kay Perry) have said that his predatory/rampant appetites were a open-secret. Does it mean that he should be locked up without trial? Of course not. However, we are allowed to talk about and write about it – up to the point of slander, and lies – just as men are allowed to use ‘hard sell’ tactics – up to the point of violence etc. The gentlemen on this thread doth complain too much….
It’s Katy Perry and she didn’t say any of that. She was devastated when she received a text from him ending the marriage after only 18 months.
Not exactly, but what she did say was that he was “very controlling” and “I felt a lot of responsibility for it ending, but then I found out the real truth, which I can’t necessarily disclose because I keep it locked in my safe for a rainy day”. The issues under discussion are necessarily hard to be sure about as they happen in private and usually between enemies (one or other must be scheming & malicous) – but I find multiple accusations, consistent with public behaviour to be convincing enough, even though it’s not as certain as anyone would like it to be. To take another case – Depp vs Heard – I lean Depp, as multiple exes and others acted as positive character witnesses, and Depps manner in public generates sympathy, whilst for Heard, the situation is somewhat reversed.
I don’t think it’s really very interesting to point out that men are more sexually attracted to younger women than older women. This has been a constant feature of human societies everywhere and in all places, reproduced in cultural artifacts and historical records the world over. And yet we still get essays in which presumably worldly women seem to be shocked by this fact. (To be clear, I assume we’re talking post-pubescent females – men attracted to pre-pubescent females are pedophiles and a totally different species.)
No, the more interesting fact is that despite this universal feature of the male libido, every successful society on earth has had robust social, religious, and legal norms enforcing lifelong, monogamous marriage as the expected outcome for romantic coupling. If the story of sexual relations were simply that men are more powerful than women and take what they want, and women are powerless objects of male lust, this would be inexplicable.
One possible explanation is that men are not just sexual conquerors but also caring fathers and brothers – and women (even young ones!) not just helpless swooners, but also wise and calculating objects of desire. Together, these impulses work to curb men’s sexual freedom – which ends up producing substantially happier outcomes for both sexes. Of course Mrs Harrington is right that our current sexual norms are self-destructive and must change – but do we need the hand wringing over child marriage?
Just how many instances of ‘child marriage’ (at least in Western countries like the USA) are these tragic cases of forced marriage and lifelong subjugation? My suspicion is that most of the people campaigning against ‘child marriage’ are standard-issue feminists who see marriage as a domesticating institution that limits women’s freedom. The real gatekeepers for child marriage (other than the participants themselves, obviously) are the parents of the bride. Is the legislature better able to advise the young woman than her own parents? Yes, some young women have bad parents… but many of us have bad legislatures.
PS. Whatever happened to “half plus seven”? That’s the formula for “maximum age difference” that I learned as folk wisdom as a young man. Always seemed to make sense to me.
All successful societies! I would have said that all societies outside a handful of Western Christian ones have a pattern of polygamy.
I don’t believe you are right as a matter of historical fact, but let’s leave that time-consuming investigation to the side for the moment. Even if there were successful societies which practiced polygamy, that would not undercut my argument… because polygamy entails reciprocal marital burdens just as monogamy does. The crucial fact is that there are precious few (zero?) societies in which random, lusty hook-up’s are the norm, even though it appears men are substantially more interested in sexual variety than women, and substantially less interested in long term entanglement and responsibility to them. This demonstrates that men’s sexual desires have not been the organizing principle for social relations. Never, anywhere… until today, here.
I’m not sure that this could be framed in any way in law, but many young women go through a stage of using sex for validation, just as many young men go through a stage of chalking up numbers. Most grow out of it, and find a sounder basis for their self esteem. Some don’t, generally because there is something psychologically amiss.
This does make young girls vulnerable to celebrity (and wealthy, high status) predators: the more fame, wealth and status, the more validation.
It’s an unpopular idea: but perhaps what we need is more negative social pressure to balance out the validation young women get from these relationships. If an older man has teenage girls on his yacht he’s a dirty old man. The teenage girls can post bikini shots and get validation for coolness. Perhaps we need to start calling them out for what they are.
Your comment is bitchophobic.
Some of us have been calling it out for years, but we are told we are ancient relics and ignorant followers of Truth. Now what?
I know. It’s part of our culture that men can be called out for anything and everything, while holding women accountable for poor behaviour is seen as oppressive. It happens quietly, especially amongst other women, but has become a bit of a social taboo.
A move in social mores towards making teen girls, say under 18, sexually unavailable, might be a healthy thing.
But we always have to work within the underlying material o our human biological make-up. And here is a problem, because biologically, adolescents are not children. Especially at the 16 year old mark. Historically of course many women and men were fully integrated into the adult community at that age, working and supporting themselves.
But 16 year old also have secondary sexual characteristics that indicate fertility, some girls in particular have attained all their adult growth, and they themselves are quite interested in sex. The fact that men respond to sexually mature, fertile females should not be a surprise, any more than it would be with other mammals.
That’s not going to go away unless the male sexual instinct is suppressed altogether. So it would have to be up to social taboos and similar ways of shaping behaviour. And likely it would have to be consistent – you can’t tell a pair of 16 year olds it’s ok to be sexually interested in each other, and maybe even have sexual relationships, but expect men of 25 to no longer see 16 year olds attractive. That’s just not how the brain works. So I suspect what you would need is a much less permissive attitude to teen sexuality in general. Of course society has largely gone in the opposite direction, and seems hell bent on introducing sex even to tweens.
It would likely also be helpful to stop encouraging girls this age to dress like sexualized, adult women, stop using them in advertising, and so on.
Younger women/ girls have traditionally been interested in boys older than themselves.
To an extent this is certainly true, though it’s not rare for teenagers of the same age to couple up. Generally this is considered acceptable, or at least, somewhat inevitable.
Your points, although absolutely correct, are ones which I think most people are blind to. Humanity is the first and only species to comprehend anything beyond itself. That doesn’t make it any less true that the reason we are all here, is because we, and every other species, is biology driven – without that driver no one exists. And that driver is red in tooth and claw, not just on the Serengeti, but all the way to… us. This is the very mechanism of evolution – apart from reacting to environmental conditions, this mechanism is passive but nevertheless drives us (and every other species) to either ignore, compete with, or less frequently cooperate with other species. And the same picture obtains intra-species, and within humanity no less.
The difference with humanity is that we are capable of virtualisation – we react, not just the the actual physical cues of others of our species, but to virtualisation of them. We react to pictures, to cartoons, and the same of those inside our heads – so it’s hardly a surprise that we as a species are poor at rigidly conforming to overlaid socialisation constructions, when much more ancient, primal signals around fertility and survival are maintaining a drumbeat inside our brains to override those constructs. A case can certainly be made that these primal drivers cause outsize damage to females compared to males, but beyond the superimposed social constructs, that is neither here nor there.
What a sympathetic reading of what it is to be a teenage girl. Not.
What do you think those girls might like?
Tell that to the cosmetics and fashion industry.
Not a single word about the role of a strong father in keeping children safe from predation.
And not a word about a responsible mother bringing her daughter up not to be a brainless slapper.
“So how do we keep girls safe?” And how do we make men behave?
Rather obviously, we strengthen the bonds that tie them to family, school, church/temple/mosque, neighborhood. Which means giving the lie to the myth of the powerful, autonomous self. And of the omnicompetent state that supposedly protects it through… the court system, as final arbiter!?
I personally believe that many young women find themselves behaving in a promiscuous manner due to underlying daddy issues. They’re looking for a protective and loving man in their life, because they have lacked one growing up.
That is a sensitive and generous interpretation. However if that is what these girls are looking for, they are going about it in the wrong way, and looking in the wrong place. In what universe could a creature like Brand be mistaken for a ‘protective and loving’ man?
God – how constantly disappointed they must be!
Do you think that a young woman looking for a protective and loving man is likely to find one in a creature like Brand? I think your hypothesis is sensitive and sympathetic, but I fear that these girls are just stupid.
Apparently I over-use one particular saying : it is “What did you think would happen?” I feel it would be well-applied here.
When the Weinstein case firs first arose, I said to a friend why did’nt some male relative of the women not visit him, he is a fat slob.She replied I have no boyfriend and my Father is a drunk.
Where communities were close and Father undertook hard manual labour and played rugby and boxed( S Wales, Lancashire, along M62, Hull, rural areas ) someone like Brand would have been paid a visit. Working in heavy civil engineering where most men had played rugby league, women in the offices were not molested because tough male relatives were only a few minutes away. When women became Engineers, either for Consultants or Contractors , Foremen were very protective, especially Irish. No swearing was allowed in front of ladies and definately no comments of a sexual nature. One man ignored the warning was carried off the site on stretcher with an oxygen mask on his face.
Women have told me they prefer working on construction sites than offices.
Women worked in pubs in rough areas and were never molested because regulars would have stepped in. Historically women have owned and run pubs in Britain, often in rough areas. So why have women on the comedy circuit had problems yet women working in pubs in docks and areas of heavy industry have not?
Perhaps for some that’s the reason to be promiscuous but don’t discount the power of hormones.
I assume by “very young girls” you actually mean 16+ year old women, since you aren’t using the word ‘paedophile’. And when you say “molest”, I assume you mean “engage in consenting sexual activity”, since you aren’t using the word ‘assault’. So, to paraphrase, without the manipulative language, “men engage in sexual activity with consenting women do it because they can, and because they like it”. And, I would add, the converse is equally true.
Tell me about demonetarisation. As long ago as April 2006, within days of my having joined Blogger, Oliver Kamm had Google Ads taken off my site and any other maintained by me. He must have lost me a small fortune over the years. But back in 2009, I blogged strongly in support of Andrew Sachs, and against Russell Brand and Jonathan Ross. The local Blairy Boys, who kept a close eye on my site, were livid. Like most of Brand’s fans from those days, to this day I do not think that any of them has ever seen a lady’s excuse me. Perhaps that is why such are exactly the people who have turned on Brand in recent days.
The wildest conspiracy theory that I have ever heard in my life is that Brand went into political commentary as a shield against allegations such as those which were now being made against him. But my generation has heard some wild ones, and from exactly the outlets and even the individuals that are now expecting us to take on trust from them the existence of these invariably anonymised and voiced up accusers, never mind the veracity of their claims, of which that is one.
100,000 military age males had not been murdered in Kosovo. The attacks of 11th September 2001 had not come from Afghanistan; the suggestion that they had done so is the only 9/11 conspiracy theory that has ever done any active harm. There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Therefore, those weapons were not capable of deployment within 45 minutes. Saddam Hussein had not been feeding people into a giant paper shredder. He had not been attempting to obtain uranium from Niger. A genocide had not been imminent in Benghazi. Gaddafi had not been feeding Viagra to his soldiers in order to encourage mass rape. He had not intended to flee to Venezuela. It was not an undisputed fact that Assad had gassed Ghouta. Sergei and Yulia Skripal were not dead, as announced on the front page of The Times on 12th March 2018. 40 people in Salisbury had not required treatment for nerve agent poisoning, as claimed by The Times on 14th March 2018. And so on.
Half a week in and still with no arrest, tell me about Nick Cohen. Tell me why you have never named Freya Heath. Tell me why you have never named the sitting Conservative MP who has been arrested for rape, and why I should not do so. And prove that Brand’s accusers exist at all. Go on. Prove it.
Thank you for that link to your report on Nick Cohen. I must admit I knew nothing of this scandal having lost interest in Cohen following his anti-Brexit rants (“now the sewers have opened” etc). When you consider that the tone of his writing was/is generally one of moral indignation this is especially ironic. I note that he still writes for The Spectator.
It should have been a huge story. Funny how it wasn’t.
How very interesting, thank you.
My pleasure.
I don’t agree with the conclusion that the problem is too big to solve.
Why not abolish the “co-ed society?”
Make all schools single sex. Clubs, gyms and sports related activities could also be segregated.
Separate waiting rooms, train carriages and busses for females are common in some countries.
Women have spent several decades demanding access to male spaces.
Now they largely have what they wanted it’s time to consider if their demands were wise.
Yes, why don’t we cut to the chase and go full on Sharia? Seems to be where all of this is heading. After all Islamic preachers preaching Sharia – how to stone a women in the correct way etc (see recent scandal of Green Lane) are receiving government funding.
Seems to me that post modern ‘progressivism’ having encouraged an abandonment of basic moral behaviour now wants to see it severely punished unless it fits with the new gender narrative of course: hormone blockers, sexual literature in schools, gender re-alignment surgery, men self identifying as women in order to boost their pension funds by beating women in professional sports etc is all about caring.
The only thing clear right now is that we are in a catastrophic mess and that there is no help coming from any political party.
Men who self-identify as women can also to gain access to female single-sex spaces – one of the most odious aspects of ‘trans rights’.
Chivalry was about teaching self restraint, emotional maturity and responsibility to boys so they would not use their strength to impose their will on women and those weaker than themselves. Chivalry may have been learnt from the Beduin.
Since the 1960s the Cultural Marxists have preached anything goes, there should be no self restraint. The danger I see is that unless self restraint is soon learnt that some sort of Sharia type laws are imposed.
Cultural progressivism permits everything but forgives nothing.
“The only thing clear right now is that we are in a catastrophic mess…”
No truer words ever written. And they would apply to any century in history.
Have you considered joining your local mosque?
This is not a religious matter.
We could start by making all schools single sex.
If nothing else it would permit men to become teachers and boys would benefit.
FLOREAT ETONA!
I suggested this during my graduate course after hearing about college campus rape culture for the first time. I was told I was being sexist.
I think there is already a widespread willingness to keep girls safe. It’s the transition into womanhood that is fraught.
Yes, there are predatory men out there, and there are also artful young women trying to catch their attention. But unless you are willing to impose sexual continence (how?) on young adults then any imposition will affect far more people than the targeted groups. And the imposition will not work on the targeted groups anyway.
This “keep girls safe” mantra is exactly what Germaine Greer was campaigning against in the 1960s. Women’s liberation is dependent on them having agency, even if this includes the freedom to make their own mistakes.
I originally had a modicum of respect for Greer… until I read her book. At which point I realised how she disliked being female and started to pity her. What a sad character.
Gah. This is all so horrible. And Mary doesn’t get any closer to the root of it then the comments claiming 16 year olds (or any human of any age) can “consent” to be an object. Girls don’t (primarily) need laws. They need fathers. They need fathers. They need fathers. There is no legal solution for father hunger. And yes, obviously there are bad fathers and bad families but that actually proves the argument. The clearest indication that a girl will avoid negative outcomes (abortion, arrest, drop out, poverty) is that she grew up in the same house as her biological father, married to her mother.
And, yes, we do for sure need social and biological realism of the sort Mary advocates. And we need to dispel the myth of safe sex. I won’t do a whole dissertation on it here but metaphysically at least women are tethered to reality by our bodies. It may look like men are getting away with it in terms of sexual consequences but they aren’t. They are totally lost. Generations of ghosts:
Where’s the evidence that girls need fathers? All you can offer is correlations, but if you don’t exclude the genetic confound then you prove nothing. The kind of people who have no fathers inherit the behavioural traits that led to them having no father.
And the thing is, that looks as if it’s adaptive in our current societies. People like those of us in broken families are outbreeding those of you in middle class splendour with only one or two children, if that.
Thank you for all the money that keeps us alive and flourishing though: couldn’t be doing it without your contributions.
Good fathers provide girls with an example of what to expect from men. There is a reason why so many girls with absent fathers go for abusive men. They have nothing to compare male love to.
Upvote for making what should be a basic point about evidence.
Though absent fathers must to some extent be a social phenomena as the rate has changed considerably.
Even if there’s a father in the house married to the mother there’s no guarantee he’s going to be a strong and loving father.On the contrary dysfunctional families are the norm.
Sixteen year olds are too young to consent to sex, but they can consent to double mastectomies?
No, ‘top surgery’ is restricted to over 18s in the UK and USA, and sex with a 16 year old is legal.
That not at all true in the USA, nor in Canada.
It’s mostly true – in Canada USA it is possible to get the surgery under 18 on a case by case process, with /medical consent. And in both countries 16 is the age of sexual consent. So SC’s comment is mostly false.
Very good piece, except that child marriage the author begins with is just the tip of the sexual exploitation of young girls pattern. Early sexualization of girls is everywhere, on TV, in movies, in popular music, even in the toy aisle of your local department store.
I think you have knocked the nail on the head here Daniel. It is something that over time appears to be ever more younger and younger and then gets picked up by society and integrated as ‘normal’. i.e per-pubescent bras for girls that have not developed yet.
Brand was probably as predatory in his early twenties as he was at 30. I’m not sure that a reduction in the age gap would really have made a lot of difference. Perhaps his sexual tastes were a bit more vanilla then.
And women do take some responsibility here. Their willingness to sleep with him no doubt encouraged him to push the boundaries more and more. If a man has (openly) slept with 1000+ women, is it likely that each episode will be loving, vanilla sex? If you’re number 999 you’re a throwaway item to be used and then trashed. Is this news to anyone?
And if you’re 16 and a virgin you’re a novelty – but that’s a novelty that quickly wears off. Any surprise if, having taken that innocence, a sexual predator will then start debauching it before finally getting bored and discarding what’s left.
I wish the culture would stop saying “slept with” and dating” as a euphamism for having sex.
If you want proof of what you say, look no further than Drake and Leondardo DiCaprio.
There are two men that regardless of how many young women they sleep with and then trade out for the next one, there is always a next one.
By today’s standards, they are what are called “High Value Men”. They are high value because no matter how many women they pass over, there is always another one right there to take her place.
I remember a conversation I had with a group of workmates [male and female] about Brand, when he refused to apologise to Andrew Sachs following his phone call. I said that Brand was a sleazy narcissist and a coward, they said he was a maverick and implied that made it ok. I think this is a form of cowardice. We don’t want to be judged and ostracised by the opinion formers of the moment and so we go with the herd. Our need to belong overcomes our better judgment. We all do it from time to time, its so ingrained we hardly notice it.
We don’t all do it.
Here in UK, the direction of travel is the opposite to what might be suggested by the article. The *Online Safety Bill* is currently well advanced in the legislative process, and may well come into force before year end. Once that happens, it will represent a significant sacrifice of freedom & pleasure to safeguard young girls (& boys). I’m not sure someone of Mary’s insight would want too much further movement in the safeguarding direction. It’s not so much a question of sacrifice – the tragic nature of the human condition includes the fact that society can’t chose to totally protect vulnerable people from harm without imposing such robust safeguarding & social barriers that the cure would be worse than the disease – due to loneliness & various other social maladies.
This is not to criticise the excellent article of course. Mary’s central point is well taken, society would be far better placed to make changes beneficial to young women if we were more realistic about gender differences. One such change might be to ascribe more social value to the once vaunted virtue of benevolence.
I dunno, I mean, I agree that there are abusive situations, certainly we could describe the child marriage thing as such, particularly if the marriage is arranged or forced. The Steve Tyler thing is just insane and never should have been allowed legally. (But what was her mother thinking?) And any situation in which any woman, young or old, is denied the power to say “no” is immoral and, as it should be, criminal.
BUT…..
We could certainly describe the Weinstein situation as such. Though, I would point out that in that case the women had a choice. They could have said “No”. That doing so would cost them professionally is a different question. The crime there would, to me, be extortion. And yes, there would be almost no way for those women to suit him or have him charged for it. But they made a choice in the moment that their career was more important to them than their dignity and self worth. Is that a choice they should have to face? Of course not, but they did have a choice.
I think too that something to consider is that there have always been women ready to sleep their way to what they want, willing to use sex to get what they want, not just situations where powerful men engage in extortion for sex. Does anyone think that Melania Trump is with Donald because he is sweet and good looking? On the other hand, there are women who will withhold sex as a means of punishing their husbands or boyfriends. So, it is fair to say that a large number of women treat sex as a commodity to be traded for what they want from men. Rich, powerful men have a lot to trade.
Now, young women are women. They are inexperienced, often naive and generally without any power or assets of their own. But they learn quickly that youth and female beauty have a power. A lot of those young women are scared of that power, scared of the attention it brings, but many want to test that power, the power to access and manipulate a man with resources, a man that has status or can provide access to things they desire. One need look no further than the Sugar Baby phenomenon. A more straight up trade of access to youthful sex for economic advantage you would be hard pressed to find. But who is using who in that circumstance?
I think too that the author fails to consider that young women are as much sexual creatures as older women and men. Whether it is wise or healthy for their long term prospects is a different question. But, the fact is that young women are just as likely to be sexually aroused as anyone else. And, like it or not, good thing or not, reality is that most women find men with resources, power, a level of sophistication to be more attractive than the kid flipping burgers to get through HS or college. There has always been the attraction for many women of the older guy, the guy with the car and money for dates and gifts, the guy that might actually know what he is doing in bed and has a bed and not the back seat of a sedan. Granted, there are limitations. And, like it or not, good thing or not, men are attracted to beauty and youth.
Nothing I have said here is particularly shocking or unknown. Nobody’s eyes should be popping out of their heads. These are just commonly known and understood things. We see them everywhere in our culture, from music, to movies and TV to advertising to politics. It is right there in our faces.
Unless and until someone decides to modify the human genome in some way that causes men and women to not be attracted to what they are, this is how it will always be.
The problems with this dynamic are as follows..
Any parent hates the idea that their 16 to 20 yr old daughter is engaged in sex. It scares the heck out of us and with good reason because we know the risks and we do not want to see our children as sexual creatures (really anymore than they want to see their parents that way too). We seem to forget, or perhaps we want to forget, that we were that age once and we had sex, girls chased older boys, and boys dreamed of being with the college age sister of their friend.
Men do not like the idea that they are not in the game. They know that the pretty girls are gonna pick the guy that has the money and status they lack. Not everyone gets to be an alpha male.
Women hate the idea that they are valued for their youth and looks because they know that both will fade over time and they do not want to be seen as merely attractive brood mares and not complete people.Many resent the idea that young, hot, women get and have access to things they do not based entirely on their genes and not hard work. Many do not like the implication of what it means for them as they age. It seems unfair and it probably is.
The only winners here are the older alpha males and the young hot women who actually get some long term value from them.
Now, the question of men having access to women’s spaces? Totally agree. There is no legitimate reason and nothing good that will come from that. But then, many of the same women that push back against that are also vehemently against male only spaces.
Yet another campaigner playing safe, and deliberately playing down the role of Islam in this whole appalling saga. There were more men involved, and more and younger victims, in a single one of the dozens of ‘Asian’ grooming gangs than all the high profile men cited here. So a few states in the US have marriage under 18? Across the Islamic world girls as young as 5 are married or sold to far older men. The religion’s inventor and still its role model ‘married’ a pre-pubescent girl, and had numerous sex slaves. In the West real progress is being made in improving the lot of women. Thanks to evasions such as that here, it isn’t the case across much of the rest of the world.
Hold the front page! Women are attracted to powerful older man who can provide and men are attracted to beautiful younger women who are fertile and unlikely to be already carrying another man’s child. That’s evolution for you.
This article consistently blurs the distinction between consensual behaviour and non-consensual behaviour. I have no doubt this is intentional, in order to suggest that young girls over the age of consent cannot in fact give consent when they are following their evolutionary instinct in being attracted to older powerful men, and that older powerful men are criminals for being attracted to beautiful young girls. Poor little women, they have no agency!
Many on the left want to give 16 year olds the vote and deny their parents the right to know if they are changing gender. Yet at the same time they can’t drink, get a tattoo, join the army, drive or, apparently and only if they are female, consent to heterosexual sex with an older man.
Once you bring in “evolutionary instinct” as an argument, you can cheerfully sweep all morality under the table. How clever. But what does the word “innocence” imply? If we are evolved apes, nothing. It’s a purely religious construct, unrelated to evolution. But if humans are, in fact, created in the image of God, then innocence has a very real meaning. And since all men understand the sexual urge to defile what is innocent (even if all men don’t feel that way), we give ourselves away by our inner thoughts. We know that young girls are innocent, and girls lose something very precious in their first sexual experience that nothing can restore. You can’t explain that away.
Simon,
Cmon man, that is melodramatic.
I hate to break it to you, but most teenage girls over 16 are NOT that innocent and most never have been.
Also, sure, the first time anyone, male of female, has sex or even their first kiss, is a major event. And yes, something is lost but something is gained as well. Whether that is good or bad I guess depends on the people and what is gained.
Further, you jump right to some older guy deflowering a teen virgin. What is far far more likely is that she lost her virginity to some boy at school by the time she is 16 or 17. That certainly was how it was when I was in HS. Then, once she is past that, she is no longer a child with childish innocence and she has entered into the mating game. And, being a teen, she is going to want to set out and determine her own path, she is gonna have her own ideas about what she wants and like most teens she is going to want to be more “adult” and not have all that much interest in what her parents or other adult figures have to say. She is going to want to be seen and treated like an adult woman and not a girl. The boys her age? She will probably think they are immature or not up to her standards and she is going to want a guy that can treat her like and adult. No matter if she is, in our opinion, ready to be an adult, SHE may well think she is. And there in lies the danger, just as with booze or drugs or any number of other things.
It is a SERIOUS mistake to think that any young woman, 16 or older, lacks her own agenda and has her own ambitions, social and otherwise, or that she lacks the agency to go get it. It is silly to think she does not realize that the youth and beauty she has gives her a kind of power and that that power can open doors to things she wants either on her own or through a guy. They may be naive about a lot of things, but do not assume they are innocent.
Surely the aim of civilization – and religion – was to manage the instinct into something more conducive to the good of both parties.
try trepannation, leeches, or bleeding -let the demons out.
He “picked me up and cradled me in his arms like a child and was stroking my hair.” Surely, only Zaphod Beeblebrox could physically manage that.
The law should protect 16-18 year old females. Marriage should not be permitted at 16, for instance.
Negotiations between teenagers over virginity happen in that shadow zone, anyway. We all know that.
Commonly, girls under 16 are protected against molestation by older teenage boys. Many of these criminal cases come up.
But as societies we are both squeamish and too permissive about teenagers, especially girls. Access to every corner of the Internet is ruining both childhood and adolescence- it is equivalent to letting kids run around fetish shops in Soho, Pigalle or Times Square.
I have to disagree. As a teenager growing up in the 1980’s, before the internet, before cable TV porn and when porn mags were hidden behind the counter, there were PLENTY of sexually active and even sexually aggressive 16 yr old girls. Knew plenty that chased guys in there 20’s.
Teen girls chasing older guys has been happening for as long as there have been teen girls and older men.
The law is there but you’re all assuming that girls around the age of 16 want or feel they need safeguarding and won’t fight you every step of the way. We adults are dinosaurs and don’t know what we’re talking about. They’re 21st century people, children born into the Information Age, experts in everything. They’re streetwise and sassy. They don’t need our ancient advice, they have TikTok and reality TV! Top boy isn’t a cautionary tale, its a life goal! These girls want a bad@ss boyfriend with a flashy car and lots of money to spend on designer clothing and jewellery because she is worth it and if she has to drop to her knees or knickers for it then so be it!
yes they frighteningly naive and ignorant in equal measure, but many are absolutely determined to learn the hard way and no amount of law changes in safeguarding will stop them.
Why is it that any article about feminism or the way outcomes have been distorted always has responses along the lines of; “what did you expect?” or “Its what you wanted and now you want to complain”.
No what people wanted was women to have equality and a release from men treating them as chattels not to have someone scream in their face “You made us do it” or the eponymous “don’t make me cut myself / you”.
No doubt this will be voted down by the hordes of males who feel so threatened by people even talking about these issues. Happily I don’t care about their silly knee-jerk poor-ickle-men drear.
“A release from men treating them as chattels”?
This seems like a complaint about basic features of sexual difference, which is indeed what feminism has denied and then reshaped society to pretend are imagined. The result has been a boon to men seeking sexually available women (most men) and a boon to women disinterested in the commitments implicit in family formation (very few women).
In a nutshell, feminism has only exacerbated the problem of men being interested in women’s bodies more than their minds/hearts/souls. As the old saying goes “why buy the chattel when you can get the milk for free?”
Feminism is a complex topic, but I think it is fair to say that it has had unintended consequences. Easier to see with hindsight of course.
“No doubt this will be voted down by the hordes of males who feel so threatened by people even talking about these issues.”
This is true unfortuantely on both sides. So much personalization instead of recognising the nuance.
At sixteen, me and my mates would have loved the opportunity of romance with girls of our own age, or even a year or two younger. But although they were friendly enough at school…their evenings were spent in pubs, clubs and the Student’s Union and like hangouts. Where we had no chance of joining them…as we looked our age…but they looked (much more!) than “old enough”…and as far as I’ve seen in the half-century since, it has never really changed…
Permitting marriage at a very young age (as we formerly did in this country) has to be seen in context. It dates from the time when women had no effective birth control and having a baby out of wedlock could have terrible consequences for both mother and child. To that extent, and in its time, juvenile marriage was seen as the lesser of two evils.
Seems to me one hell of a lot rides on one word alone here – that one word being “inappropriate”. In the rest of the piece i see no real attempt made to ‘unpack’ that word in any useful way. What would Mary define as the definitive advantage for the young femmes if the suitor/paramour/whathaveyou happens to be of similar age? What is there to stop similar misfortunes taking place?
The other thing she blissfully ignores in her zeal is how it was the very social construction of the figure of “the innocent child” itself over 200 years ago (and laboured over ever since) that set the stage for maximal eroticization and the relentless accumulation of what we may well call the erotic capital on which our culture depends.
The child romantically defined in terms not of what it IS but what it is NOT, onto which blank canvas a million fantasies, emotional investments and hopes henceforth may paint themselves at will….
It has always struck me as strange how it’s bad if the man is older, yet if the sexually active 15 year old is busy shagging boys her same age, its OK? And then come her 16th birthday, if she has sex with an older man, what was deviant and reprehensible sudenly, overnight, becomes “OK”……….
I think I would speak for many men whose almost lifelong patterns of sexual arousement are set by their teenage experiences. I vividly remember as a 17 year old, the amazing sex I used to have with my then 16 year old girlfriend ( she was NOT a virgin when I met here..) , with I should add, the complete OK from her mum…….and those experiences basically set the template for what arouses me going forwards……I still find the idea of sex with younger (16 – 20 I should add, NOT young teens) women arousing, because of that……but of course, since then it’s never happened, I generally found partners similar in age. Does that make me some kind of pervert ?
I think of course it is more complicated when there is the power and money involved, but I am fed up of men being demonised about this…….
Of course genuine Paedophilia is never to be excused, but talking to my wife, who is the same age as me, ( 63) she had several experiences as a young teen where she almost slept with older men, one was a pop star who shall remain nameless. And her first sexual partner was when she was 16 with her 21 year old boyfriend….again, her Mum just marched her down the doctors for the pill and let her get on with it…….
The vast majority of these young girls are not co erced and do what they do quite willingly.
It’s no surprise that when females in society reach sexual maturity they are attracted to and seek out apex males with fame and fortune.
I am appalled that anyone would describe Brand as an “apex male.’ I cannot pretend that I have ever thought of him as other than contemptible – as a comedian unfunny, as an actor untalented, as a human despicable.
The usual term is Alpha Male – perhaps his use of ‘Apex Male’ is a Freudian slip, as the word is usually used with predator – Apex Predator.
dreadful article weaving together a host of unrelated issues and possibilities, none of which are backed up by those awkward fact thingees. “Not all men, obviously” WTF? does that mean? something like 1% of men commit 99% of sexual crimes. so why does she tar the rest of us? if a man was that sloppy, the usual mysogyny tropes would be fired out automatically.
Since false accusations about sexual abuse* are commonly made, is it any wonder that young people are having less sex than previous generations?
The Duke Lacrosse team, Brett Kavanaugh, Aziz Ansari are just three examples that leap to mind, but according to a recent survey conducted by the Center for Prosecutor Integrity, an overwhelming number of those who report being falsely accused are men.
On the other hand, if one is a man who enjoys certain celebrity with the “right people” (ahem, Bill Clinton), the women he abused were called “trailer trash”, “gold digger”, “unhinged stalker” by his defenders and dismissed, mocked, and humiliated.
This media pile on of Russell Brand is sickening, especially when it’s being dressed up as a part of a greater over all issue about protecting young women, as Mary is doing here. When my friend and I were nubile 14-year-olds, we would strut our pretty new figures on the beach in string bikinis. We knew what we were doing. Band groupies like the girls in “Almost Famous” knew what they were doing, too, as did Virginia Giuffre.
Brand was an admitted libertine swine who now has something of a messiah complex, but I believe him when he says all his sexual relationships were consensual. Weird how the accusers waited over a decade to cry about it.
“Affirmanti incumbit probatio”- ‘The one who alleges something must PROVE it.*
(* Immanuel Kant. 1724-1804.)
If we’re going to rely on anecdotal evidence, here’s my memory of the Clinton scandal. (1) Some women in my own family were delighted by Monica Lewinsky, declaring that they’d have been happy if their own daughters had taken her opportunity to get ahead with a rich, powerful and handsome man. (2) The same women were upset by Bill Clinton, nevertheless, declaring that he had “humiliated” his wife–even though Hillary had done nothing wrong and had actually benefitted from public sympathy as a “wronged woman.”
Yes in terms of seeking attention from men. But perhaps not fully aware of what it might lead to in certain situations. Girls are able to do this because most men are completely safe and respect social boundaries. But there are predators who do not.
“If the allegations against Brand are true, then they fit into a much larger pattern of sexual interest by older men in sometimes very young girls.”
It’s hardly a “much larger pattern.” Most people – male or female – would consider a 31 year-old man having sex with a 16 year-old girl as, at best, creepy AF, with hints of ‘borderline-paedo.’ Even Brand made sure he wasn’t seen in public with her – he knew his “lothario” image wouldn’t survive that.
That apart, it wasn’t illegal for him to have sex with her. There’s an argument that it should be but that’s a different debate. The potentially-illegal bit was his alleged assault on her and that should be determined by a court – not by Channel Four or the Times or any of us sitting at our keyboards.
The crux of the matter, as summed up in the last paragraph, is the not the pursuit of pleasure, but the selfish pursuit of pleasure. The author does not use the word, but her argument implies it.
If the objective, as argued by the feminists named in this article, is self-discovery through ‘promiscuous lives’, the other person’s self is not going to be of concern.
Unfortunately, the remedy, self-restraint, is one of those bourgeois ‘castrations’. The permissive society, by definition, having no limits, no self-restraint. If the other person’s self were of concern, one’s self and its discovery would have to limited.
The sexually permissive society, persuading women to go on that ‘journey of self-discovery of promiscuous sex’, has sent them into the sort of trackless wilderness in which the male predator has always inhabited. Only now, the tiger does not have to come up with the self-excuse that the Victorian lecher had to; that the woman was a fool, a wanton, a harlot, or a shopgirl. They are all just on a journey of discovery. A journey which provides all the self-excuse required.
Only what if the journey of self-discovery leads to the discovery that there is nothing there to be discovered? Only primeval desire, now untrammelled by any bourgeois ‘castrations’. And what is that untrammelled desire but ultimate power.
Self-indulgence always brings fog; a waterless mist, giving no sustenance and obscuring sight. A sexually permissive society perforce has to distain celibacy. In advancing Brand into the world of public debate and celebrity, the Robespierres (of both sexes) of the sexual revolution were choosing their sans culotte with eyes open. Badged and uniformed members of any new order are placed in prominent positions to provide influence.
Why do we sacrifice young girls? A question that might have been asked in a litany by a male priest in an ancient society before a female child was passed through the fire to Moloch.
But before the feminists give up and acquiesce to the sacrificing of young girls on the altar of the modern sex god in return for the continuance of selfish pleasure that gives ever diminishing returns, at least they might try an experiment. Theorise that male celibacy is the highest good. And that practised, it would ‘castrate’ the predator whose prey is the young woman. Replace ‘sex-positive’ with the positive of self-restraint.
Of course, Russell Brand is a changed person since the days when Guardian writers told the people he abused that they were ‘Satanic Sluts’.
Why else is the Guardian now going after him, apart from Brand being a changed person?
In destroying the nuclear family, and ensuring family courts deny fathers access to their children after family breakdowns through false allegations of abuse and/or violence, feminists removed the greatest protector any girl or boy had – their biological father.
It would be good to see Mary Harrington and other feminists recognise this blindingly obvious reality, apologise publicly, and start making amends.Of course that wil never happen.
Mike Buchanan
JUSTICE FOR MEN & BOYS
http://j4mb.org.uk
Mary Harrington is very pro-father, why should she apologize?
Not true. Few biological fathers are protectors.
The evidence for this statement is what?
I don’t really know how much this attraction to a combo of innocence and sexuality is solely something desired by men.
In Japanese manga, there’s a whole strand of writing based on beautiful young men (‘bishonen’) with exactly that combination of doe-eyed, female sensitivity combined with graphic sex. This was first introduced by a woman, no less and til today, the vast majority of consumers of this genre of manga are women and girls.
Women with real power are just as capable of fantasising about unsullied and combustible goods as any man I expect so isn’t this just another identity dead end ?
What about Catherine of Russia ? With her fabled appetite for anything with a pulse on two (or even four) legs ?
Big difference between fantasy and reality though.
I am unclear what actions Mary is recommending, but she certainly elicited many defensive comments. These men protestith too much, me thinks.
Protestith too much about what? What exactly are you accusing men in these comments of?
Defensive?
I do not think they are defensive so much as fed up and disgusted.
I think we are all kinda over the women as victim thing. Amazing the amount of you that claim to be strong and independent but then claim to have no agency or responsibility for your choices. As a group you spend an inordinate amount of time just complaining and blaming men for your problems and misery.
AND…I think a lot of us are just over hearing women whine about how men are attracted to youth and beauty. So what? It is what it is. Are we supposed to look for old and ugly to make you feel valued? Get over yourself.
Men are no more happy about the way women value us but ya do not hear us whining about it day in and day out, writing books about it, spending hours on talk shows bitching to each other. No. We suck it up and move on. After all, it is women who have the sixs 6’s, 6′ tall, 6 figure income, and 6″ down below. It is 80% of women chasing 10% of men not the other way around. It’s not men that reject women with lesser income or lesser education. No, that is women. We accept that fact that women are gonna judge us on how much money we make and how willing we are to spend it on them. AND do NOT tell me that women do not do that or that if some women do then men are dumb to go along because the MAJORITY of you are like that. It is a rare woman indeed that is prepared to put HER financial resources into a man
So exactly who is shallow here?
Bottom line? We are just kinda over the sanctimonious, self righteous bitching women do. As if you are all a bunch of pure saints, little moral angels who never behave badly or cruelly or knowingly take advantage of a man. No woman ever led a man on to get a free drink or free dinner or maybe to get him to come over with his truck and move her stuff for her. Nah. That never happens. Not like most women given a choice between two nice guys is not going to take the guy with more money. No no no, no woman has ever left her middle class husband for the wealthy boss she has been screwing.
LMAO….All you have to do is go online and look at what women are talking about, the things they say they should get from a man, when to dump a good man. There is a whole, very popular genre out there of women discussing how to take advantage of men and when and how to upgrade.
Time to get over yourselves. You may be different, but you are certainly no better human beings than men are.
Well, a guy with a choice between two nice women is gonna take the hotter looking one. Shocking. How horrible.
Marriage under 18 was NOT banned in BRITAIN, only in England and Wales (which alone are not Britain). Marriage at 16 without parental consent remains legal in Scotland, and with parental consent in Northern Ireland.
Gosh. Human relationships are hard to regulate. If we could just regulate desire, the desire of men, the desire of women, including very young women…
Some societies have come up with coarse mechanisms for dealing with relationships. A given society, for example, may afford a marriage contract or even a menu of marriage options. Then there is the concept of statutory rape: the relationship may be entirely consensual–or not; both parties to a sexual relationship may be very mature–or not. But, sorting these things out is just too difficult for a third party to sort out, so we’re just gonna draw a bright line that is much, much easier to monitor and police: no sex with people below a certain age. No excuses.
Alas, we learn that the entertainment business often involves a lot of sex and sexualization.
Meanwhile, where are all the folks who made a point of excusing “artists” like Roman Polanski, because … well, they’re artists? They’ve been quiet.
There is no logic in an age of consent of 16 and an age to marry of 18. The ages for both should be the same (18 in my view) .
Of course predatory older men are wrong . But so are immoral teenagers who have casual sex and can then cry foul and get men and particularly young men into serious trouble.
Why mature men fancy young girls is strange and pervy.Is it paedophilia by another name ?
Reason why older men might want a relationship with a much younger female…
1) to be the envy of his mates (ego boosting)
2) her inexperience means he feels intellectually superior (ego boosting)
3) she looks up to him (ego boosting)
4) she is eager to please (ego boosting)
…. I’m sure there are many more equally ego boosting reasons to add to the list. Perhaps we could look towards why there are men who need such ego boosting in the first place? Is it possible that they have been damaged by over bearing women?
OR…she is just hot and he enjoys her company.
Right, a good looking guy with good health, money, power and brains should turn away an opportunity to be with a younger woman he finds really attractive and makes him happy, because some older woman is offended?
He should step away in shame and go find an older woman.
UGH. That is just stupid. Men are not women, we do not look for the same things women do, we do not value the same things women do in the same ways and proportions.
Men are simple. Really simple. We want a woman we are attracted to that brings us peace. We do not need a super well educated woman. Nice, but not required. We do not need a woman that makes a lot of money. Nice, but not required. We just need someone we are attracted to and brings peace to our lives. That COULD be an older woman, it could, but it could also be a younger woman.
Now, in the case of an older man who wants to marry and have children? OF COURSE he is going to look for a younger woman if one is available. What, he would be smart to find one in peri-menopause? What, a younger woman that wants to marry and have children, have a level of economic security, maybe the resources to be able to stay home with her kids and still be able to take vacations etc, is crazy to chase and older man with resources?
Based on my reading of your list, you got an issue with men and you disapprove of their mating strategies and what they value, so my guess is that you, despite being potentially attractive, would in no way bring a man peace.
What would be your take on women who have relationships with much younger men?
Rubbish.
There is a litany of bias that could be pointed out, but I think the main misunderstanding comes from the imposition of blame to situations that revolve around economy.
Unfortunately, seeing as we were kicked out of the garden of paradise, we must make our own way. And, sometimes making our own way can become messy.
One problem is that it’s difficult as a man to talk about these things without some social sanction. Women of 16 or 17 can be completely sexually developed and difficult distinguish from one of 22 or 23. A woman of 17 is more fertile than a woman of 27. The male sexual impulse is largely driven by visual cues of fertility. It should be no surprise to anyone that any sexually functioning male might find a 17 year old woman extremely sexually attractive. The narrative that a 40 year old man finding a 17 year old woman sexually attractive somehow makes him a pedophile just denies biological reality and destroys the ability to have meaningful, useful, debate. There are many reasons that it might be a bad idea for a man of 40 to engage with a 17 year old sexually, but it should start from the understanding that it’s perfectly biologically understandable that he might find such a woman sexually attractive.
Personally I would never be a secondary school teacher for this reason, not that I would be at any risk in engaging with a pupil, but because I can totally imagine my mind being infected by one, who could quite possibly be attracted to me and flirtatious in our interactions, and for it taking an unnecessary amount of mental energy suppressing my thoughts and feelings. When I think of the superficiality of the interactions I generally have compared to the intellectual and emotional interactions you have with an English teacher at 17, discussing the greatest works of literature concerning the deepest aspects of the human condition, it seems totally understandable that two beings might find themselves attracted to one another more than they find they are in their everyday lives. Why put yourself in that sort of position if you can avoid it? What the article misses is the very clear comprehension of many girls of 16 or 17 of their own sexual power. Most of them are sexually active by then and totally understand how to look and behave in sexually alluring manner. Rather than just tell them that older men that are affected by this are morally corrupt we should explain to them that this is the reality of the world and that they should at least accept their share of responsibility in helping to maintain harmonious relations within society.
We also need to accept that even these generally accepted social norms might be impossible to enforce legally and that if something happens outside social norms but within the law the only sanctions that should be applied are social ones. To that extent I’m not totally unhappy with what’s happening to Russell Brand, as I know were I to have sex with a 16 year old girl I would face social exclusion, although I might hope that 15 years later, and with a wife and family, I might expect to be forgiven for past bad judgment.
Well said and well put.
Well said.
What many people do not want to admit, and I think this is true more of women than men, is that we are ALL of us effected by evolutionary biology. Even where socialization plays a large role, that socialization is impacted by nature.
There are a lot of things that go on that we all kinda know are true but we do not want to say because to say them would appear to justify certain actions that are not socially acceptable for a variety of reasons. In fact, were we to admit what a lot of us know to be true is would be highly awkward for both men and women.
We have laws and we have social norms to put curbs on our natures. If our natures were all good then there would be no need for laws or norms.
BUT….at the end of the day, when you get down to the nuts and bolt of things….
Women are attracted to healthy men with large amounts of resources and who demonstrate a willingness to share those resources. Women date over or up the socioeconomic ladder, they do not go down. Men are a means to another objective.
Men are attracted to beautiful women who are kind and bring peace to their lives. What is beautiful? I think we can all agree that it is tied to health and youth with some other variables indicating fertility. I actually read somewhere that men can actually detect a woman that is ovulating via phermones. Not sure I would question that.
From a strictly biological perspective, a biological imperative to carry on the species, it makes perfect sense that young, fertile women, would seek men with the resources, financial and otherwise, to provide safety and comfort to her and any offspring.
Now, is that to say that these preferences are not modified in a social construct or that they should not be constrained? No. But there is no point in pretending they do not exist and that they strongly impact the actions of individuals.
A clear example of this is that throughout most of human history, prior to the onset of organized religion and Christianity in particular, and the introduction of marriage til death, the normal state of affairs was polygyny, or a situation where very few top caste men had all the women and most men had none. Which, interestingly enough, is how most primate societies operate. Interestingly it appears that that is where we are heading again. The data from dating sites would indicate that 80% of women are chasing the same 10% of men.
“It should be no surprise to anyone that any sexually functioning male might find a 17 year old woman extremely sexually attractive.”
Let’s see… at seventeen I was a sexually functioning male in grade twelve, and if memory serves I was more sexually attracted to my seventeen year old female classmates than to anybody else before or since. Surely anyone with a brain in his/her head instead of high vacuum, and is being honest, would acknowledge that sexual attraction couldn’t care less about social norms and conventions. Some girls are knockouts by age thirteen, however socially impossible it may be to admit it. Of course, this doesn’t mean you’re going to start a sexual relationship with them: that’s a different matter entirely, one in which social convention does play an important and appropriate role.
Surely we can admit sexual attraction shouldn’t be our only behavioural guide when it comes to relations between the sexes , without having to pretend we believe things about sexual attraction that are obviously untrue.
What we are witnessing, is that after aeons of an evolutionary-biology driven power asymmetry in favour of men, we are now living through the midsts of a flip – to a technology driven power asymmetry in favour of women. This is evident in for example the much greater numbers of women compared to men now going into higher education, and ever rising influence in the workplace (in developed nations anyway). It is especially evident in the fact that chickens coming home to roost for Epstein/Weinstein/Brand types, when they never did in the past. The counter argument (at the moment anyway) to this is that for example very few of the current great tech fortunes belong to women. So we are witnessing an edifice beginning to totter, but still standing.
The zinger is that it doesn’t appear women will be able to enjoy their ascendency for long (which is unfair) because while “…And, thus, perhaps all of us — even feminists — have arrived at a tacit consensus is that it’s not worth it…” may or may not be true, I’m not sure that agency in the matter remains in ‘your’ hands anymore. I mean by this, both a great separation and a great homogenisation between the sexes appears to be gathering momentum willy-nilly, closely following hot on the heels in the wake of the ‘Female Supremacy’ so to speak, and the type of human society that results is not in anyones control.
What is Phoebe Waller-Bridge doing there?
Sometimes the most important things are not discussed, just silence. Here the focus is on powerful older men sexually exploiting young girls, and the invocation of parents, particularly fathers protecting their children. But no mention, not one, of father daughter incest, people just assume here that there is protection for girls in the family and such is a rather dangerous assumption. AND there is also complete silence on priests sexually exploiting young female and sometimes male parishioners. The areas where the norm of silence exists often function to protect the worst human predators.
I agree with much of this. I also agree with what the same author says about the context of collective cognitive dissonance around girls and sexuality in other pieces. I disagree with the author’s very tentative suggestion of possible remedies. Children need to be raised to understand – at the right time – their own vulnerability but not to fear (or frankly, fetishise it, which is a big part of the problem in the first place). I am not holding parents, still less young victims of abusive behaviours to blame for their assailants’ crimes. But just like teaching road safety helps to reduce the opportunity for reckless drivers to reek havoc in young people’s lives, there are simple, practical messages that 11, 12 year old children can receive and understand about how to keep their own, emerging sexuality, safe. I am really nervous of any solution that aims at separating the sexes at a young age. There are some necessary forms of safeguarding that depend on erecting barriers around children and very young adults (don’t talk to strangers, no relationships between teaching staff and students etc.). But ultimately, the most effective boundaries that protect a young person emerging into independence are internal.
Apparently Keir Starmer’s Labour Party is proposing to lower the voting age throughout UK to 16. This is already the age of consent. If a 16-year old girl, who may be given the legal right to vote in governments and can already say ‘Yes’, has consensual sex with a revolting older specimen like R Brand, she is responsible for her actions, not the man.
Rape is an entirely different matter. And I believe that far too many rape convictions result in sentences that are not harsh enough. Having said that, women who are found guilty of false rape and sexual assault allegations should also be the subject of stiffer sentences.
Most ‘ordinary’ men in western democracies are decent, caring individuals who respect and support women. I am sick of the misandry that is increasingly heaped against us by aggressive neofeminist ‘victims’, and detest in particular the abusive terms ‘patriarchy’ and ‘misogyny’ that are routinely employed to demean and insult us (‘the oppressors’) in the printed and broadcast media. Toxic feminism prevails no less than its male counterpart.
Re the final paragraph I think Mary is leaving out an important point. It is that the various attempts to redress this wrong have in their short few years led to a popular view that criminalising men on the say so of women about events so far in the past that no genuine factual and evidential basis can be found to prove them, creates a dangerous moral hazard that threatens our institutions of liberty.
It’s not that “…all of us — even feminists — have arrived at a tacit consensus is that it’s not worth it…”, as if it’s just a bit too time consuming and tedious. It’s that we are in effect being asked to surrender the presumption of innocence itself when it comes to historic sex crimes, treating one half of a dispute about the facts as a form of proof in itself while regarding the contradicting story as proof of its own falsehood.
Before anyone brings it up, no I’m not saying all historic rape accusers are liars – far from it. What I’m saying is that the difficulty most people have accepting that this is a viable way to settle the past doesn’t come from prejudice, misogyny or patriarchal special pleading, it comes from an extremely understandable appreciation of the dangerous precedent that has been set by the suspension of the normal rules by which we deploy the state’s monopoly on violence.
If journalism was really a profession which spoke truth to power, we would know who all the famous bad guys were before they caused major damage. Because journalists are in fact a bunch of brown nosing wannabes we never find out until it’s too late. It turns out that women journalists and actors (Meryl Streep applauding Polanski who had a**l sex with a minor) are just as cowardly and/or enamored of power and money as their male counterparts. Until journalism finds its raison d’etre again all kinds of ugly human behaviors will prevail.
No, we’re in denial over men’s feeling of entitlement over women’s bodies! How dare they complain???
I am deeply skeptical of the allegations against Brand and that ruins whatever point this article was trying to make.
“[M]en who molest very young girls do it because they can, and because they like it.”
And WHY do they like it?
I suspect that it’s a perversion of the male inclination to protect and provide, ironically. (Could that explain Brand’s behavior in the anecdote about the virgin?)
And in times past, why did marriages of young women WORK—or did they? Was it ALWAYS and ONLY just bad male behavior? Seems worth asking.
Molest implies lack of consent. Brand claims that his relationship was consensual. There is a difference, although the author appears to disagree.
Men are evolved to try to impregnate almost anything. Worst case you walk away, and you might leave one more child.
If you get in first on a young girl you’ve got a great chance of several more children with her – because other men don’t want a wife with someone else’s child. And you can still walk away, worst case.
Which is why we have civilisation, its rules and its discontents.
We’re supposed to have evolved beyond the basics.
I think most of agree that, in the case of Brand at least and possibly in many other cases. Brand is a narcissist, he frequently overuses big words to appear intellectually superior. He struggles to maintain relationships with women of equal standing (Perry). Of course he is attracted to young naive women, they’re no threat to his intellectual superiority!
He’s now married with two children and it appears to be a stable marriage.
You ask some useful questions, Kelly. I don’t know that men like to “molest” girls (unless you define heterosexuality itself as molestation, which is what Andrea Dworkin did).
Most men have always preferred to marry healthy (that is, attractive) young women, because the latter would be more likely than older women to produce many healthy children. And the latter, in turn, would confer status on their fathers and on the entire household.
I’ll just add one footnote here. Not all child marriages begin with sexual activity. In some societies, both sets of parents arrange early marriages for financial, social or political purposes. These marriages might take several years to be consummated.
THREE days of Brand is quite enough.
People must realise you cant have it both ways.
You cant describe 16/17 year olds as young women and allow them to make decisions about the pill, abortion and gender switching without parental consebt and then cry “foul” when these same empowered young women decide to have sex with handsome, rich famous men
ThE CENSORSHIP on this tripe is just RIDICULOUS.
UnHerd you MUST do better!
Brand was a predator it appears. However, even if one assumes that the allegations made against him are true, almost all of the women Brand slept with consented to the sexual activity. Mary Harrington should ask why so many younger women go with older men. Probably the main explanation is that they lack a father and are looking for a substitute.
Brand was reported as ensuring that the 16 year-old girl was just that – at least 16 years old – because he did not want to do anything illegal. If Mary Harrington doesn’t like a 16 year-old having sex with a man in his thirties (fair enough), then she should ask for it to be made illegal by either raising the age of consent or by introducing an intermediary stage where a person aged 16 or 17 cannot legally consent to sex with a person more than, say, 3 years older. Raising the age of consent above 18 would question 18 being the age of majority and the age of voting – something that could be argued for but which is very unlikely to happen.
How unfortunate to politicise relations between men and women, now to a lesser degree between men and men as Kevin Spacey discovered, though not yet same-sex female, which is telling. And how surprising from a person like Mary.
Marx has met Christ and, lo! It turns out they get along just fine after all. We could have avoided centuries of conflict with China and the Soviets, and it was all just a silly misunderstanding.
It makes one wonder, in this passionate essay, whether the political is personal more than the personal is political.
While Mary has an entirely valid point to make, the intensity seems to warp and bias it from a male perspective so that it is rejected out of hand. And there’s something in the very way she makes it.
Whatever Mary’s personal motivation, she removes all individual reality from all parties in a way we might see in the hardest Maoist doctrine. We become people made of wood, didactic chessboard characters with predetermined options and no motive force but an external hand moving us about the chess board of life, the only variation being lust added to power. We are powerless from within, these two dimensions control us. Free choice is only for the chess players, God and Lucifer.
And yet even the powerful can be vulnerable. I can think of personal instances where I was the younger party.
For me, sex for its own sake seems a very sad and pointless experience, but perhaps that’s just me. Others have their own lives. Either way, sex seems enormously overrated.
I say that “women expect to be protected” and I see that Mary Harrington agrees with me.
So what are we to say about Simone de Beauvoir and her feminist bible The Second Sex where she writes proudly about “the independent woman?
The fact is that if “we” are going to protect young girls — and older, foolish women — from male predators we need a patriarchy, strong men that keep abusive men on a short leash.
And don’t get me started on First Feminist Mary Wollstonecraft and the two abusive relationships she got into. Then there was her daughter, Mary Shelley, that went off to France with Percy Shelley and Lord Byron, and guess what they got up to. (Yes, she married Shelley later on…)
Really nothing has changed, and it never will.
I applaud someone, (Mary), for finally speaking out about something that has seriously been overlooked by so, so, many.
What has been seriously overlooked by everyone, male, female, or whatever gender you profess to be, is CHILDREN.
I find the protection of all of our children, is by far drowned out in the chorus of both sexes vying for ‘power’ or waging a war with the opposing sex. What I see, hear, read, view everywhere, by so many of our cultural ‘outlets’, media, Netflix, magazines, tik tok, movies, even the narrative that is going around, is the saturation of sex. Sex and sexuality is everywhere.The message is not a pretty one. The dominant theme of sexuality on imagery or narrative form, is ‘anything’ goes, ADULT desire in every form, usually the extreme kind. Whilst this is not in and of itself a problem between two people, it is very clearly problematic when it is OUT there for all to gain access. Namely, the major concern is the very young children coming into their sexuality and adolescence. It is this that is inherently problematic. You actually you don’t need to gain access – its in full frontal view.
Adult desire in every proclivity in the public space, has taken over any community and moral alliance to concede what is actually good for children, or what we use to gate-keep for. Why some rules were put into place for originally.
What also seems to be not discussed in too many places is the understanding that not all ‘desire’ is exactly the same. This to me is the biggest problem of all. Regardless of gender, this is the case. Women too!
Sexual desire can be in degrees. To not recognize the ‘predator’ in some men and women is outright crazy. Desire is normal, but predation has a intention behind that is not OK. The intention and motives behind the desires of some men and women are BAD. Really BAD. That is not OK.
This is where young girls and boys are sacrificed to the many.
Where once the communities moral ‘boundaries’ were described as too rigid, and perhaps in some real sense they were, this does not mean the opposite is true. Where now there are no boundaries, no moral understanding and consensus for what is good for the collective, think families and Children, we also leave the gate open for those whose intentions and moral inclinations are mildly described as dubious at best.
Sexuality is our life force. Therefore it needs to be protected and respected. You do not throw the keys to a first time learner driver in the front seat of a V12 lamborgini, then walk away and laugh and say have good fun. But this is in effect exactly what we are doing now. Then we wonder where did it all go wrong.
I am voting for CHILDREN.
The compliment one could give Mary for this piece is that she imagines others to be more or less like her.
As someone who personally experienced this growing up, it can be challenging to read the media hype out there. I was born in the 60s and came of age in the 70s and early 80s. A girl growing up and coming into her sexuality (think 8, 9 and 10) I was innocent and clueless to what any of this was. Also I was very unprotected, by the men and women around me. Too lost they all were in the culture at the time, liberation, drinking, dinner parties, music, fun times. No one likes to think that someone at a party that they know or are acquainted with could possibly be driven to think indulging in reckless irresponsible behavior is all OK. I do think the liberation at the time did open the door to some of this. There was the very real open consensus of French movers and shakers in the 70s who very openly called for no age limit for sexual relations with children. There was also prominent psychologists at the time stating that sexual abuse of children is not harmful in any way – in fact its ‘good’ for them. These people were considered the ‘intellectuals’ and major thinkers at the time, and were lauded by high – culture. Lolita was made into a film and many men empathized with the adult male. Young boys coming into their sexuality are also fodder for some. I think there are key growth time lines of our children coming into their sexuality that need to be sacrosanct and protected by all of us. The majority protecting the few. This is in my view particularly true for the very young – the age I stated above. I think we need to also understand that we are also very heavily influenced then as is now by our peers. Many young people are learning along the way. I think we as a community all have a responsibility to protect our kids. Its well documented that if any child is sexually exploited when young, the damage can be very difficult to undo as they grow up. Our kids also look to see what we are doing and saying, how we are behaving and whats happening around them and absorb that as that is what happens.
We have age recommendations for movies, voting, cigarettes, etc. Surely this must also apply to what different age groups have access to.
The Australian government just cowtailed to the porn industry and didn’t mandate a ‘recommendation’ for the industry to put a ‘age passport’ on access to its content. Instead, it has left it up to the industry to self-govern this. I think this is missing the very real possibility of putting some restrictions for age groups to access the most hardest of porn. Whilst it wont stop all – of course – it makes it much harder. Once seen, you can’t unsee. What a shame. Continual viewing on young minds desensitises what you are viewing – and perhaps on us all. you only have to look at how graphic and real any muirder scenes have become compared to insinuations in the early days of movies. My kids laugh at Jaws now – but I was terrified to go into the water after that.
You’ve obviously hit a nerve, given the snide, defensive, self-pitying comments by men on your piece.
This article deals with the experience in the modern West. Surprisingly no comparison with or reference to the experience of child brides in the Indian sub-continent, Africa or even China.
A cowardly story that ignores the grooming gangs in the UK and probably many other places.
It is hard for feminists to swallow that men are hardwired to prefer youthful beauty and sexual purity for serious mating over the average unmarried older woman, whose number of sexual partners would have.branded her until recently as a hussey unfit for marriage in the eyes of nearly all men . . .and women. Because this has been unversally known for hundreds of years, caring fathers (and mothers) until recently were vigilant in restricting physical access by men to their unmarried daughters. Ever heard of chaperoning? The state did its part wthe now defunct crime of seduction. Interesting how feminists are now belatedly rediscovering wisdom in bits of the sexual morality they trashed in the sexual revolutionwired
Aside from sex, what about children’s very lives? More children are killed by their mothers than their fathers. We can attribute this in part to feminist drives for mothers to be given custody of children in preference to fathers, even when those women’s fitness to care for their children is questionable at best.
Mike Buchanan
JUSTICE FOR MEN & BOYS
http://j4mb.org.uk
Who says more children are killed by their mothers?
“were married while still children”
The decent into narrative doesn’t add anything to a conversation.
Young girls know the difference between right and wrong. Giving yourself to a man because he is wealthy, powerful, popular, athletic, or whatever – hoping to be “the one” has been happening forever. Coming back years later because you are older and wiser and not “the one” is just plain nasty. Rape is a totally different matter.
I used to think Unherd was a-political, now I don’t. Time to cancel my subscription since I detest politics of any kind. Most men are raised by women yet men get the blame…?