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The four thinkers who took on the mob Resisting the public beast is increasingly difficult

Did the book burners ever go away? (Credit: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade/Lucasfilm)

Did the book burners ever go away? (Credit: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade/Lucasfilm)


August 4, 2023   7 mins

What is the formative connection between the private self and other people? Or, as the architect of libertarianism Ayn Rand once put it, how should we order “the two principles fighting within human consciousness — the individual and the collective, the one and the many, the ‘I’ and the ‘They’”? Today, the question looms large because of the “social” part of social media, though we’re probably all too distracted checking our mentions to notice. In wartime Europe, the issue was more obviously pressing — for other people tended to breathe down your neck in ways you couldn’t ignore. They hunted in packs, attacked in mobs, wandered about desperately in droves, and capitulated in herds.

During the Thirties and Forties, four brilliant but unknown young thinkers — Simone Weil, Simone de Beauvoir, Hannah Arendt and Ayn Rand herself — were obsessed with questions about the individual versus the social world. Unfamiliar to each other, they wondered how best, in Beauvoir’s words, “to make oneself an ant among ants, or a free consciousness facing other consciousnesses”. Their respective philosophical conclusions and the surrounding life events that helped give rise to them are the subject of a wonderful book, The Visionaries by the German author Wolfram Eilenberger.

No member of this quartet was a natural team-player; all were fiercely non-conformist in their own ways. The book depicts them living through a tumultuous decade (1933-43) that included Stalin’s Holodomor, the Spanish Civil War and the rise of Hitler. To Arendt, history resembled not so much an arc bending towards justice as something more like the vision of her suicidal friend Walter Benjamin: “one single catastrophe, which keeps piling wreckage upon wreckage”. Weil accused the “whole of the 19th century” of believing, wrongly, “that by walking straight in front of one, one necessarily rises up into the air.”

Metaphysical questions assumed to be long settled took on new political urgency as legal rights were repealed, hostilities stoked and the death camps built. The challenge, as far as Arendt was concerned, was for Jews like her to “fight like madmen for private existences with individual destinies” against the forces that would dehumanise them. From 1933 on, she wandered rootless and alienated across Europe, settling uneasily for a while in Paris before being forced to move on again.

Like Arendt, Rand and Weil were also Jewish, relegating them to the status of metaphysical Otherhood in the eyes of many. Rand’s prosperous Russian family had lost nearly everything during the revolution. Weil, assimilated (at least superficially) in a bourgeois French family, suffered less from antisemitism than the others, but still was forced to leave for England in 1942. As a non-Jew, Beauvoir underwent the least personal upheaval, but even she had a breakdown during a flight from the Germans in 1940.

Between them, these thinkers produced a fascinating spectrum of philosophical positions, each inflected by thoughts and feelings about the chaos around them. At one pole was the atheist Rand, arriving in the States aged 21 with a visceral hatred of totalitarianism, and with a self-willed, asocial, rational egoist in mind as a moral hero — someone a bit like her, it seems. Autonomy was everything, suffering was pointless, and the self was most free when alone.

Rand rejected any Christian or socialist calls to altruism or “equality” as vehemently as she rejected tyranny from the Russian state. Equality meant only interchangeability, which meant a descent into mediocrity and nothingness. Refusing modesty as a refuge of the feeble-minded, she would declare in her diary that “Nietzsche and I think…”. She dreamed of becoming completely impervious to other people’s opinions — to “refuse, completely and uncompromisingly, any surrender to the thoughts and desires of others”, as she put it for one of her fictional protagonists — and very nearly managed. In 1943, as her family still starved back in Leningrad, her novel The Fountainhead finally took off. She negotiated an unheard-of sum of $50,000 for the Hollywood film rights and bought herself a mink coat.

At the other end of the spectrum was the admirable Weil, equally eccentric and passionate in her attempts to make a moral art out of living, and the real star of the book. During a short and intensely lived life she moved from Marxist-inspired socialism to ascetic Christian mysticism, but was always drawn to self-sacrifice and suffering as a means of understanding others. She sent all her spare money to the poor; wouldn’t eat at her parents’ house unless she could leave the cost of a restaurant meal on the table afterwards; and worsened her already fragile health by getting a job in a factory, in order to better understand the experience of workers. During the Spanish Civil War, she became the International Brigade’s least useful volunteer, determined to carry out secret missions for the Republic but short-sighted to the point of near-blindness and unable to shoot a rifle.

Physically emaciated and tortured by terrible headaches, she deliberately sought out sacred music in churches to transform her physical suffering into meaning. By the end of her life, Weil was advocating total selflessness and renunciation of will, and framing the act of suffering as a direct route to communion with God. But even as she lay dying in a Kent hospital in 1943 — muttering verses, refusing food to the frustration of her doctors, and telling nurses to send her allocated milk to the starving — she still found the energy to write to the leaders of the Free France movement, remonstrating about their failure to send her behind enemy lines on a solo mission.

In between these two characters and outlooks are placed the more moderate Beauvoir and Arendt. Partly because of the persecution she suffered, Arendt appears the more sympathetic one here, and the more politically serious. While being chased across Europe, she agonises about Jewish identity and the self-destructive futility of trying to “assimilate”, feeling lonely and unwelcomed wherever she fetches up.

Living precariously as a refugee after escaping from a French internment camp, she starts to articulate the ideas that would later inform her famous analysis of totalitarianism as an émigré to the United States. Internees in camps were not being arrested for anything they had personally done, she noticed, and no difference was made between the innocent and the guilty. The individuality and inner life of a person was irrelevant — was treated as non-existent, even. The Nazi plan, embraced by collaborating French too, was to turn “every individual human being into a thing that would always behave the same way under identical conditions”.

In comparison to the travails of Arendt, the life of the young Beauvoir can’t help seeming slightly decadent. Granted, she waxes enthusiastically about the importance of “metaphysical solidarity” with others as a precondition of personal freedom, but makes it sound all rather grubbily transactional — I’ll grant you recognition, if you grant me some. While, by force of circumstance in the Paris of 1936, Arendt and her fellow refugee lover are living hand-to-mouth in sparsely furnished hotels and wandering aimlessly between cafes during the day, Sartre and Beauvoir are doing the very same thing — by choice, for kicks.

The immediate focus of both Sartre and Beauvoir is not the suffering millions, but their shared “family”, composed of young lovers and acolytes. When not reading or writing, Beauvoir conducts a complicated romantic schedule that would make the average polycule these days feel inadequate. Resembling Rand in her rather sociopathic detachment from other people’s feelings, she treats this quasi-incestuous group as a psychological testing chamber through which she can analyse various permutations of what the existentialists called “Being-for-others” — and then set them within her novels.

One of Eilenberger’s strokes of genius is to reflect the book’s content in its form. Just as hidden aspects of the self are revealed only in a process of comparison with others, so too do elements of each woman’s life and outlook emerge in fascinating relief by juxtaposition with the other three. As the episodic narrative unfurls, strange harmonies and discords between the thinkers appear as if in musical counterpoint.

Poles apart, Rand and Weil both end up thinking of social life as a source of evil, though for different reasons. For Weil, Plato’s “Great Beast” — public opinion — can only lead us away from God. For Rand, it can only lead us away from the god-like self. Arendt embraces love between two people as the antithesis of totalitarian impersonality, while Weil treats romantic love as “manifestly unjust and morally random”. Just as Arendt argues that Jewish assimilation into society requires a destructive embracing of antisemitism within the self, so too will Beauvoir eventually go on to argue in The Second Sex that the assimilation of women into a universal “humanity” requires something similar — but with misogyny taking the place of antisemitism. Meanwhile Rand, Weil, and Beauvoir all think of themselves as adopting masculine roles.

The basic philosophical questions addressed so ardently by these iconoclasts have not gone away. Invasion and war are back on the continent, along with dehumanising war crimes and the strategic othering of ethnic and national populations — all encouraged by leaders who sneer at democracy. But even without all that, there are quieter and more everyday invasions: of your mind, for instance, filled up by other people’s thoughts and feelings every time you look at a screen.

The boundary of the self in relation to others has never been more porous. Resistance to the “Great Beast” is increasingly difficult, even if we now answer to bureaucrats in HR departments and not to party apparatchiks. In an age of virtual and machine-mediated relationships, we invent new selves online for the benefits of imaginary beings but take every opportunity to avoid other people in the flesh. In doing so, we avoid ourselves. Indeed, for some of us, lost in online worlds, Being-for-others in Beauvoir’s sense barely gets going. And destructive ideology can easily seep into the gaps where human contact used to be.

Equally, the public square has also got a lot noisier since 1943, and it’s even harder to tell who the bad guys are. Widespread cultural familiarity means that, perversely, the narrative of a minority being cruelly dehumanised can be cynically recycled by pretty much any group seeking power or attention, no matter how ludicrous the claim at face value. (“Acephobia”, otherwise known as discrimination against asexual people comes to mind — indeed, surely it’s only a matter of time before some bright spark reclaims Simone Weil as an early fighter for asexual rights). Tap into the right tropes and it’s a work of minutes to persuade the guilt-ridden and the gullible that a new identity group is being persecuted horribly, simply because rampant political ambitions are being criticised. The book-burners and censors these days do it in the memory of past victims of totalitarianism, and many onlookers don’t know which side to take. Even worse, the phenomenon of confected-grievance-as-power-grab allows many to dismiss genuine social ills in the same light.

Still, despite the epistemic confusion, we have to keep on trying. As Arendt wrote presciently in 1951: “The self-compulsion of ideological thinking ruins all relationships with reality… The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (the reality of experience) and the distinction between true and false (the standards of thought) no longer exist.” In other words: technologies may come and go, but the challenge of staying an individual in the face of the mob is always with us.


Kathleen Stock is an UnHerd columnist and a co-director of The Lesbian Project.
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Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
9 months ago

I still do not feel we have grasped fully the nature of the nightmarish Fall our society is undergoing. We once felt free. We could place our faith in our law and lawmakers. No more. We inhabit a crushing, hostile deeply corrupted undemocratic public space in which coercion and exclusion are deployed daily to further the ideological interests of a deranged zealous united progressive political class. Everywhere there are quiet horrors that stun – from debanking farmers to State backed Pol Pot like eco fanaticism and a DEI identitarianism that is poisonous, harmful to communites and suffocating. We inhabit a New Order too; because it was introduced peacefully with the accession of Blairism and Maastrict in the 1990s, we have failed to recognise what is and fail to comprehend how completely it has overturned and disfigured not just traditional means of governance, but even more precious traditional values like free speech, autonomy from the State, personal responsibility and the rule of law. What would these four make of this rot – this slow death at the hands of a crude self serving unproductive State Blob today?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I’m genuinely curious: What previous decade, if not idealized Golden Age, do you long to re-inhabit or restore? You also use capital-f Fall to suggest the prelapsarian paradise of Eden. I understand and do not dispute that the ruling mood, as a casual diagnosis, seems trapped and suspicious, at a global, national, and neighborhood level. Yet I don’t remember a period within my lifetime of about half-a-century when people, in a general or prevailing way, felt free or trustful of institutions. Somewhat more so, yes. What was the consensus view during the Thatcher or John Major years?
You seem to be saying that there is some new or singular hopelessness afoot in Britain. Is this present malaise, fear, and mutual distrust across multiple boundaries–across the Atlantic the worst since just before and just after I was born–something new in kind rather than degree? Was the window between the actual World Wars and Tony Blair a time of freedom, without threat of annihilation, or menace from previous generations of far-left ideologues with some measure of institutional capture?
Maybe, but I’ve been hearing that we’re all doomed and have fallen off the true path since I was very young, and my perusal of old books indicates a history of such sentiments since way before the birth of Jesus. In fact we are all doomed, in the sense that no one makes it out of this world alive. In my view we are just hearing the same doom-talk, angst, and genuine agony that have been interwoven into the human condition since the expulsion from the Garden. More so than in many recent decades, granted. But one has always had to fight to be free, on an individual and grander scale too. True human freedom has always been brief or rare, potential and aspirational for most. Nearly all taste it, few achieve any hold thereupon, and those lucky few may have grace to thank more than themselves alone.
Would any of Stock’s four thinkers consider ours a time of singular “unfreedom” or Blobular Statism?

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
jim peden
jim peden
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Good question. I remember the 90s when it felt – for a few years after the fall of the Berlin wall – that there had been an outbreak of common sense.

I think Walter Marvell is right to say that our freedoms of thought and word have been eroded over the past couple of decades. If the UK government thinks it a good idea to create a ‘nudge unit’ to get its way by propagandising the man in the street then I take that as a sign of a “corrupted undemocratic public space”. There are many other indicators as the recent public health interventions amply demonstrated.

We’re in an information war and its outcome is far from certain but I’m more optimistic about the future because we do have a growing and erudite band of critics and dissenters who have been given a voice through unherd, substack and others.

Last edited 9 months ago by jim peden
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  jim peden

Thanks for your generous and persuasive reply. I appreciate the hopeful note as I’m unable to generate hope or manufacture “historical perspective” on my own full-time, especially when I only feel connected to it about 51% of the time.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
9 months ago
Reply to  jim peden

“I remember the 90s when it felt – for a few years after the fall of the Berlin wall – that there had been an outbreak of common sense.”
Quite so. This lasted for me from 1989 until Al Qaeda attacked the Twin Towers in 2001.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  jim peden

Thanks for your generous and persuasive reply. I appreciate the hopeful note as I’m unable to generate hope or manufacture “historical perspective” on my own full-time, especially when I only feel connected to it about 51% of the time.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
9 months ago
Reply to  jim peden

“I remember the 90s when it felt – for a few years after the fall of the Berlin wall – that there had been an outbreak of common sense.”
Quite so. This lasted for me from 1989 until Al Qaeda attacked the Twin Towers in 2001.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I am not harking back with nostalgia to any decade in particular AJ. I am looking at the present. What I am expressing is an ever deepening troubling awareness here in the UK that our bedrock fundamental values and practices are being swept away by the double revolution of Modernizing Blairism (97) and us becoming a compliant EU Clone Statelet (92). The most basic belief was faith in the fairness of our law, confidence in the right to live freely and to speak bravely without coercive tyrannical intervention by an overbearing unchecked State. All these beliefs have been shattered. We have seen a vast new and detached political class ‘do a Trump’ and seek to overturn a referendum result that it hated. We have seen our housing and labour markets crash and warp through a combination of mass uncontrolled immigration (+6/8m) and a linked rigged property boom which made said elite as rich as Croesus. Common law- the thread linking us to our past and the best guarantor of liberty – has been subverted by codified European and human right laws often hostile to the public will (see the unchecked criminal people trade over the channel and the utter impotence of the elected Executive). Todays small news see farmers and hunts and all de-banked by the Woke Establishment and MI5 repeat the insidious cowardly lie that right wing terrorists on the web are a greater threat than Islamists. Then look at Kathleen’s own story to see the powers exerted by hate mobs flying under the flag of supposed diversity and the crushing in civic society and in the captured public sector of any dissent to the new State credos. This is not how it was AJ. Ever. But our resistance is futile as the political classes, lawyers, State machine and media have all – for the first time – united to enforce their zealotry (EDI, BLM, Net Zero, Climate Boiling, Mass Migration, Super secularism) upon us. This is new. This is like no other England. And yes, too right, all four writers would be alert to the acrid stench of growing tyranny and the repression of individual liberty.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Thank you for those clarifications and details, some of which exist in a national and political context I do not understand at an insiders level, so I won’t comment on them (I’m trying to cut down on doing that). I would still insist that while in some way things are surely different in a nasty way–I would cite the information overload, without context or resultant knowledge, let alone wisdom, for many info swallowers–in another way there is still no new thing under the sun.
I actually think that at least two or three of the four (I want to except Rand, for some reason) would totally reject the idea that the current stench holds any odorous candle to the eras they lived through, especially the Thirties and Forties. Nor would they accept your claim of futility, perhaps especially Arendt, writing in the immediate wake of, conservatively, one of the worst things that had ever happened, but still attempting to make a meaningful impact. I would actually contend that some your own impassioned and thoughtful posts belie that asserted futility, or at least suggest you haven’t fully fallen into its clutches. Otherwise, why bother?
I admire and attempt to draw useful strength from the resilience and stubborn hope of Viktor Frankl–as expressed in Man’s Search for Meaning–who found beauty and purpose both during his time and after surviving life in a notorious death camp. I’m not saying his experience is directly applicable to yours or mine, but I don’t find it totally unrelated to my life either. Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto —Terence

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You know I enjoy your positive affirmations of human resilience AJ! I do not intend to project despair or futility. This is why this article is so good. It asks what can we learn from these four thinkers confronting full on totalitarianism. I set out a stark new reality as I see it, not solutions I cannot yet see. It is so easy to imagine the old ways endure. All the old buildings are still there. Parliament. Courts. BBC HQ. Westminster. But wild new credos hold sway within them and there is a deep sense of impotence anger at the injustice of revolution ex-Manifesto. What can individuals and communities do when so many fundamental and radical policies without any electoral mandate are imposed upon them from above?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I’m glad to hear that, Walter. I don’t detect pure futility or despair, but I just felt moved to push back against the despairing dimension of your post as I perceived it, and then pivoted to push back against a more general, lingering sense of gloom that is so much around us these days, and to which I’m not immune–far from it. Sometimes I’m not good about making clear whether I’m attempting a direct response to another comment or not.
But in my past, I’ve had a few seasons of such deep, abiding personal gloom that I did not think they would or could ever lift (I believe this is the central lie of profound melancholy or “clinical depression”)–and yet somehow the weight did lift. (I was going to continue with a bit more detail or context, but I think that’s plenty). Forgive me if that seems irrelevant or like a major overshare.
So while I don’t pretend to be able to answer your concluding question–and am sure that we’d differ as to which policies are too radical or onerous, but agree on several things too–I think cheerfulness or what I keep calling “stubborn hope” can be helpful for ourselves and others. Not if it’s just cheap or plastered on, of course.
Reframing my earlier point: To some extent liberation, or the lack thereof, still comes from within; it can’t be truly imparted, nor removed altogether by arbitrary imposition or electoral mandate–not forever, nor without remaining, unmonitored, very narrow catwalks of potential escape.
In the English-speaking world, we are not (at least the non-incarcerated) as far reduced in our liberties as Boethius writing The Consolation of Philosophy from prison just ahead of his death in 524 AD. Nor as someone in China, Afghanistan, Russia, or especially North Korea who dares not express any true opinion online unless it is ultra-orthodox. There are places where one can scarcely dare to have a true opinion or belief on the inside.
At least we’re not there yet, Walter. With a little luck, perseverance, and hitherto elusive consensus (where did it go?) we may very well go in a good direction instead of slipping toward Pyongyang. I do predict we will safely avoid both paradise and full-fledged tyranny or sci-fi dystopia.
Thank you for the thoughtful replies. Cheers.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Lillian Fry
Lillian Fry
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Many refugees living in the US see the prelude to totalitarianism here now that they experienced in the countries they fled. Particularly those who lived through the Chinese cultural revolution. They speak to their friends but remain publicly silent – too aware of what can happen.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Lillian Fry

While I lack the same first-hand experience of genuine tyranny, I’m in total agreement on “prelude” and rising danger.
In academia, journalism, and sometimes the workplace–or among the “little woke monsters” in our homes and extended families–we hear echoes of the struggle session, growing efforts to criminalize woke-unapproved or daring speech, and demonization (or sneering dismissal) of ideological or cultural opponents.
We should keep in mind, however, what “cancellation” or “struggle session” meant in China during their engineered revolution. It’s a valid, but not to-scale comparison.
And something unpopular to mention on these boards: There are extremely intolerant and would-be violent forces rising on the Right, typified by those who welcome a Second Civil War or want to re-criminalize the “wrong kind of freedom”.
Or cancel or suppress the wrong votes (on both sides).
In conclusion, please don’t mistake my sponsoring claim: I am not saying there is nothing to fear or oppose, but that we are not forcibly reduced to a state of fearful opposition; not that our governments, societies, and cultures are unthreatened, but that tales of our imminent, certain doom are greatly exaggerated.
Mutual antagonism should be avoided. Sometimes that involves extending a hand or kind word to someone who is shouting, or expressing willingness to understand to someone who is not reciprocating that willingness. Not forever, but at first. And with second or additional chances in some cases.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Lillian Fry

While I lack the same first-hand experience of genuine tyranny, I’m in total agreement on “prelude” and rising danger.
In academia, journalism, and sometimes the workplace–or among the “little woke monsters” in our homes and extended families–we hear echoes of the struggle session, growing efforts to criminalize woke-unapproved or daring speech, and demonization (or sneering dismissal) of ideological or cultural opponents.
We should keep in mind, however, what “cancellation” or “struggle session” meant in China during their engineered revolution. It’s a valid, but not to-scale comparison.
And something unpopular to mention on these boards: There are extremely intolerant and would-be violent forces rising on the Right, typified by those who welcome a Second Civil War or want to re-criminalize the “wrong kind of freedom”.
Or cancel or suppress the wrong votes (on both sides).
In conclusion, please don’t mistake my sponsoring claim: I am not saying there is nothing to fear or oppose, but that we are not forcibly reduced to a state of fearful opposition; not that our governments, societies, and cultures are unthreatened, but that tales of our imminent, certain doom are greatly exaggerated.
Mutual antagonism should be avoided. Sometimes that involves extending a hand or kind word to someone who is shouting, or expressing willingness to understand to someone who is not reciprocating that willingness. Not forever, but at first. And with second or additional chances in some cases.

Lillian Fry
Lillian Fry
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Many refugees living in the US see the prelude to totalitarianism here now that they experienced in the countries they fled. Particularly those who lived through the Chinese cultural revolution. They speak to their friends but remain publicly silent – too aware of what can happen.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I’m glad to hear that, Walter. I don’t detect pure futility or despair, but I just felt moved to push back against the despairing dimension of your post as I perceived it, and then pivoted to push back against a more general, lingering sense of gloom that is so much around us these days, and to which I’m not immune–far from it. Sometimes I’m not good about making clear whether I’m attempting a direct response to another comment or not.
But in my past, I’ve had a few seasons of such deep, abiding personal gloom that I did not think they would or could ever lift (I believe this is the central lie of profound melancholy or “clinical depression”)–and yet somehow the weight did lift. (I was going to continue with a bit more detail or context, but I think that’s plenty). Forgive me if that seems irrelevant or like a major overshare.
So while I don’t pretend to be able to answer your concluding question–and am sure that we’d differ as to which policies are too radical or onerous, but agree on several things too–I think cheerfulness or what I keep calling “stubborn hope” can be helpful for ourselves and others. Not if it’s just cheap or plastered on, of course.
Reframing my earlier point: To some extent liberation, or the lack thereof, still comes from within; it can’t be truly imparted, nor removed altogether by arbitrary imposition or electoral mandate–not forever, nor without remaining, unmonitored, very narrow catwalks of potential escape.
In the English-speaking world, we are not (at least the non-incarcerated) as far reduced in our liberties as Boethius writing The Consolation of Philosophy from prison just ahead of his death in 524 AD. Nor as someone in China, Afghanistan, Russia, or especially North Korea who dares not express any true opinion online unless it is ultra-orthodox. There are places where one can scarcely dare to have a true opinion or belief on the inside.
At least we’re not there yet, Walter. With a little luck, perseverance, and hitherto elusive consensus (where did it go?) we may very well go in a good direction instead of slipping toward Pyongyang. I do predict we will safely avoid both paradise and full-fledged tyranny or sci-fi dystopia.
Thank you for the thoughtful replies. Cheers.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I hope you’re right – but the attitudes of young graduates in my extended family fill me with dread, I’m afraid. It’s the assumption that any disagreement with the dominant narrative must be driven by bad faith that is new and sinister.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I hear you and share your concerns to some extent. But when Boomers (my parents’ generation) came of age in the 60s and 70s, many used braindead expressions like “don’t trust anyone over 30” joined free-love communes, ruined their minds forever with heavy drug use, or became political simpletons and violent radicals. Society pressed forward–sort of. Gen Zers, like many among those once ever-so-hip Boomers, might out to be little arch conservatives. Or their children might, just to rebel.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I hear you and share your concerns to some extent. But when Boomers (my parents’ generation) came of age in the 60s and 70s, many used braindead expressions like “don’t trust anyone over 30” joined free-love communes, ruined their minds forever with heavy drug use, or became political simpletons and violent radicals. Society pressed forward–sort of. Gen Zers, like many among those once ever-so-hip Boomers, might out to be little arch conservatives. Or their children might, just to rebel.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You know I enjoy your positive affirmations of human resilience AJ! I do not intend to project despair or futility. This is why this article is so good. It asks what can we learn from these four thinkers confronting full on totalitarianism. I set out a stark new reality as I see it, not solutions I cannot yet see. It is so easy to imagine the old ways endure. All the old buildings are still there. Parliament. Courts. BBC HQ. Westminster. But wild new credos hold sway within them and there is a deep sense of impotence anger at the injustice of revolution ex-Manifesto. What can individuals and communities do when so many fundamental and radical policies without any electoral mandate are imposed upon them from above?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I hope you’re right – but the attitudes of young graduates in my extended family fill me with dread, I’m afraid. It’s the assumption that any disagreement with the dominant narrative must be driven by bad faith that is new and sinister.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Weimar Germany was somewhat similar, but guess what happened?
“Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”, or so they say.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

You’ve said it all so I don’t need to. Thank you.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Thank you for those clarifications and details, some of which exist in a national and political context I do not understand at an insiders level, so I won’t comment on them (I’m trying to cut down on doing that). I would still insist that while in some way things are surely different in a nasty way–I would cite the information overload, without context or resultant knowledge, let alone wisdom, for many info swallowers–in another way there is still no new thing under the sun.
I actually think that at least two or three of the four (I want to except Rand, for some reason) would totally reject the idea that the current stench holds any odorous candle to the eras they lived through, especially the Thirties and Forties. Nor would they accept your claim of futility, perhaps especially Arendt, writing in the immediate wake of, conservatively, one of the worst things that had ever happened, but still attempting to make a meaningful impact. I would actually contend that some your own impassioned and thoughtful posts belie that asserted futility, or at least suggest you haven’t fully fallen into its clutches. Otherwise, why bother?
I admire and attempt to draw useful strength from the resilience and stubborn hope of Viktor Frankl–as expressed in Man’s Search for Meaning–who found beauty and purpose both during his time and after surviving life in a notorious death camp. I’m not saying his experience is directly applicable to yours or mine, but I don’t find it totally unrelated to my life either. Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto —Terence

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Weimar Germany was somewhat similar, but guess what happened?
“Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”, or so they say.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

You’ve said it all so I don’t need to. Thank you.

Martin Butler
Martin Butler
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Are you new to Unherd comments? The comment you are discussing is par for the course here. Tediously predictable.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Not new. If you haven’t notice my tendency to over-contribute I wonder how often you’re around. I agree in a general way but I’ve found Mr. Marvell to have fair and nuanced views on many subjects, in particular when nudged with fairness and nuance, beyond that par-score or empty-net sort of comment I’m well aware of.
I also like to play Sisyphus at times, briefly move the boulder out of the same ruts, if only back down into a different or deeper rut at times. The articles or comments are also never all one thing here, not for long.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Why are you here if you think you already know what is going to be said? I would differ though. I think you’re much more likely to encounter original perspectives here than you will at, say, the Guardian.

Martin Butler
Martin Butler
9 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I often enjoy the articles but find the comments predictable, disappointingly one sided and gravitate to the same issues again and again. I subscribe to the Guardian and Unherd.

Martin Butler
Martin Butler
9 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I often enjoy the articles but find the comments predictable, disappointingly one sided and gravitate to the same issues again and again. I subscribe to the Guardian and Unherd.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Not new. If you haven’t notice my tendency to over-contribute I wonder how often you’re around. I agree in a general way but I’ve found Mr. Marvell to have fair and nuanced views on many subjects, in particular when nudged with fairness and nuance, beyond that par-score or empty-net sort of comment I’m well aware of.
I also like to play Sisyphus at times, briefly move the boulder out of the same ruts, if only back down into a different or deeper rut at times. The articles or comments are also never all one thing here, not for long.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Why are you here if you think you already know what is going to be said? I would differ though. I think you’re much more likely to encounter original perspectives here than you will at, say, the Guardian.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“…What previous decade, if not idealized Golden Age, do you long to re-inhabit or restore?…”

I would take the 80s, and rerun them for all of eternity.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Fair enough. The only reason I’d go back there is to relive my teen years–but get it right this time!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Fair enough. The only reason I’d go back there is to relive my teen years–but get it right this time!

Mark M Breza
Mark M Breza
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

The Mauve Decade !o!

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You are correct to some extent. Yes, freedom is like a house that needs maintaining or else it eventually rots and crumbles, and each era has its unique set of challenges in obtaining that freedom. However, what makes our times very different is the unprecedented advance of state and corporate surveillance technologies together with the speed with which once-trusted public institutions no longer hold the pursuit of truth and objectivity as a cherished ideal.
Yes, there is a lot of doom-and-gloom thinking on Unherd, but I’d rather that than the spite and vitriol seen in the comments section in publications such as the Guardian. By talking about current events, even to the point of ad nauseam, a way may be discovered to change or reverse course.
Personally, I think the 24-hour news cycle is to blame. We’re presented with so much information that our brains simply cannot process it all, and so we are retreating into ideological bubbles which profit-seeking news sites (including Unherd) are tapping into. It’s much like when the printing press became widespread and people started believing in witches and demons again. I’m not sure what the antidote to this is, but I think it is important to remember our humanness and the humanness of those who the media are all-too-willing to paint as foes or enemies.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

I agree with much of that. Where I’d continue to resist your argument is somewhere near its perhaps unknowable center: The idea that permutations and aspects of our zeitgeist that are indeed novel represent some essentially new or uniquely oppressive manifestation of social misery.
Maybe they do, and I can certainly see the danger of the 24-hour news cycle you mention as well as the Big Brother-like remote monitoring and surveillance. But I remain some combination of unconvinced and stubbornly unwilling to let myself and others off the hook with pronouncements of futility, at least on most days. It’s fine if they have some cathartic effect, but after a while, treating imminent doom–whether of cultural rot, ecological worries, or a more “classic” Armageddon, or whatever else–as if they were scientific certainties is a chosen path, one not backed by conclusive evidence.
In these doom-saying days, most websites and sociopolitical factions choose one category of doom that seems sensible and reject the others as nonsense or a hoax, and UnHerd is no exception there. As a dominant majority view, not without “dissenters”.
I’m worried or thin on hope much of the time myself these days. And everyone has a right to announce or vent their gloom. I just wish it was less common for those who defend hope or advocate practical, possible roads to improvement to be mocked as naive or foolish. Not all hopefulness is pie-in-the-sky optimism, nor any kind of mere optimism, and despondency or insistent pessimism is not a sustainable state of mind. It can literally kill you, or at least shorten your life and make those years you have more hellish for you and those around you, when we are in effect forced to hear–to no useful effect–how bad so many people think so many things are, over and over again.
Amen to this: “I’m not sure what the antidote to this is, but I think it is important to remember our humanness and the humanness of those who the media are all-too-willing to paint as foes or enemies”.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

I agree with much of that. Where I’d continue to resist your argument is somewhere near its perhaps unknowable center: The idea that permutations and aspects of our zeitgeist that are indeed novel represent some essentially new or uniquely oppressive manifestation of social misery.
Maybe they do, and I can certainly see the danger of the 24-hour news cycle you mention as well as the Big Brother-like remote monitoring and surveillance. But I remain some combination of unconvinced and stubbornly unwilling to let myself and others off the hook with pronouncements of futility, at least on most days. It’s fine if they have some cathartic effect, but after a while, treating imminent doom–whether of cultural rot, ecological worries, or a more “classic” Armageddon, or whatever else–as if they were scientific certainties is a chosen path, one not backed by conclusive evidence.
In these doom-saying days, most websites and sociopolitical factions choose one category of doom that seems sensible and reject the others as nonsense or a hoax, and UnHerd is no exception there. As a dominant majority view, not without “dissenters”.
I’m worried or thin on hope much of the time myself these days. And everyone has a right to announce or vent their gloom. I just wish it was less common for those who defend hope or advocate practical, possible roads to improvement to be mocked as naive or foolish. Not all hopefulness is pie-in-the-sky optimism, nor any kind of mere optimism, and despondency or insistent pessimism is not a sustainable state of mind. It can literally kill you, or at least shorten your life and make those years you have more hellish for you and those around you, when we are in effect forced to hear–to no useful effect–how bad so many people think so many things are, over and over again.
Amen to this: “I’m not sure what the antidote to this is, but I think it is important to remember our humanness and the humanness of those who the media are all-too-willing to paint as foes or enemies”.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

The ideal is real. It felt that way in my childhood in the 50s. Much has been lost.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I can remember a time when my friends and acquaintances didn’t care about my politics. Now it’s the entire basis on which we judge each other.

Pol Pot was not a historical aberration but a grim warning of what the future may hold if we are not as militant in defence of enlightenment values as the progressives in their attempt to replace them.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Intolerant militancies like state communism, unfortunately, have been around for centuries. And they do not run in one direction of young-to-old or left-to-right.
Of course I can’t prove it but I’m convinced that Enlightenment values will never suffer a permanent or total defeat. Even certain Classical values–in many ways ancestor to Age of Reason values–limped or hibernated their way through the Middles Ages until they became re-ascendant in the Renaissance.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
8 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Charming though Americans can be it’s a terrible burden upon England to share a common language with which Americans can regurgitate their tedious foundational myths (themselves a retelling of protestant English myths). Over a century ago some English ‘liberals’ were astonished to discover the sophistication of their ‘medieval’ forebears. Think of all the books written since then, the lectures given, and still you believe in ‘age of reason values’.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
8 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Charming though Americans can be it’s a terrible burden upon England to share a common language with which Americans can regurgitate their tedious foundational myths (themselves a retelling of protestant English myths). Over a century ago some English ‘liberals’ were astonished to discover the sophistication of their ‘medieval’ forebears. Think of all the books written since then, the lectures given, and still you believe in ‘age of reason values’.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
8 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Pol Pot was birthed by the ‘enlightenment’.
Real communism enlightenment has never been tried!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Intolerant militancies like state communism, unfortunately, have been around for centuries. And they do not run in one direction of young-to-old or left-to-right.
Of course I can’t prove it but I’m convinced that Enlightenment values will never suffer a permanent or total defeat. Even certain Classical values–in many ways ancestor to Age of Reason values–limped or hibernated their way through the Middles Ages until they became re-ascendant in the Renaissance.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
8 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Pol Pot was birthed by the ‘enlightenment’.
Real communism enlightenment has never been tried!

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

A Bryant points out from 1660 to end of 18th century dominant policy was freedom. Even pre 1914 , there was little evidence of the State. There was much resistance to starting the Police as a threat to freedom in the 1830s as men were expected to defend themselves. No pay for MPs and as land owners had no wish to be away from their estates.
The Civil Service was created in 1857 and was minimal in number. Pre 1914, the Army was small , officers went about life out of uniform. As Orwell pointed out there has never been a naval dictatorship.
The English tradition was that one could do what one wanted unless there was law preventing it. There was no droit administratif in England. The Continental system was that one could only do something if a law permitted it. There was no income tax until the Napoleonic wars and then it was low , no death duties.
The people were extremely free, pre 1914 taxes were minimal, the state was minimal, one could buy guns from hardware shops, no conscription, laws were few and those which existed were upheld and people were expected to support and defend themselves.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Many of them were free to starve or drop out of/finish school at 14 and go to the factory with a life expectancy of about 60. The State could throw you in a workhouse or conscript you into the army if you were indigent or publicly drunk (on one unlucky occasion even) in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Extremely free? To me, that is nostalgic overreach on steroids. “The People” who could vote in the year you name didn’t include women and many of the men would soon be forced to die in trenches to preserve the freedom of Posterity.
I’m in partial sympathy with some of your points about better order, decency, and physical hardihood, etc. in previous generations, but your earlier claim that “you don’t say the past is better, but that we can learn from it” (or something similar) seems dishonest. I feel that you reflexively defend the Old Ways, with few exceptions.
Would you honestly love to live in the 1850s? (Ok, I admit I think I might myself–but my moderating reason and general reader’s sense of history warns me that if I were to go there, I’d better still be a white man, and one with either more status or a smaller mouth than I have in my current incarnation).
Please tell me where I’m wrong. I would expect nothing less from you, Charles.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

*posted
*re-removed
*re-restored
*removed yet again
(what a tedious see-saw; is someone flagging my comment?)
*18-hour quarantine, with brief intermissions, seemingly ended. I wonder what caused this.
*last one because I know this is not momentous interesting documentation: post removed again. Didn’t say anything abusive or use hot-button terminology.
Editors: I know my rather mild comments are in there somewhere because you’ve “flashed” them at least four times.
But whether or not the comments post: Thanks for publishing most of my excessive participation here. I didn’t mean to clog this board with so much AJ Mac—— (rest of name surname withheld) and I will make a real effort to shut up a little more often in the future. Selah

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“Publish and be damned”.*

(*Who?)

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

As we are both quite outspoken, Mr. Stanhope, I’ve sure you’ve has comments “quarantined” for 12 hours before. When/if it trickles through, I think you’ll see it’s quite moderate in tone by my “standards”.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

AJ Mac having worked in the Liverpool Docks there is nothing you have said which could cause offence.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Haha! I love that. I wasn’t abusive or too salty either, to my own ear.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Haha! I love that. I wasn’t abusive or too salty either, to my own ear.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Gosh! I’m deeply shocked that you should think I am outspoken, when I strive to be a paragon of virtue and follow the Ancient Greek adage of “moderation in all things”.*

I shall have to try much harder!

(* Hesiod, 7th century BC to use Christian chronology.)

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

Oh my! Terribly sorry. The tone is typically rather genteel but your bite marks are sometimes still evident.
The Golden Mean, if too detached, can be a little mean too.
“Everything in moderation, including moderation” –Oscar Wilde (might be misattributed or borrowed from an earlier source).

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I was only joking!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

I know. Me too. But I tend to get defensive around those who have real Classical book learnin’.
Felt the need to trade quotes.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

So do most left wing middle class intellectuals.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I’m far from left wing, though appearances may vary based on your informational diet. Left of center, yes. On average.
In some alternate world where you started pushing actual left wing positions–which I don’t think I have, or if so, rarely–my contrarian approach (encouraged by this medium and format) would eventually reveal my prevailing classical liberalism and humanism, with strains of the radical Jesus and the cultural preservationist too. (And probably other things about me I’d rather were not revealed).
I’m not in any real sympathy with either “wing”, but respect some individual, intelligent voices across the so-called spectrum.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I’m far from left wing, though appearances may vary based on your informational diet. Left of center, yes. On average.
In some alternate world where you started pushing actual left wing positions–which I don’t think I have, or if so, rarely–my contrarian approach (encouraged by this medium and format) would eventually reveal my prevailing classical liberalism and humanism, with strains of the radical Jesus and the cultural preservationist too. (And probably other things about me I’d rather were not revealed).
I’m not in any real sympathy with either “wing”, but respect some individual, intelligent voices across the so-called spectrum.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

So do most left wing middle class intellectuals.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

I know. Me too. But I tend to get defensive around those who have real Classical book learnin’.
Felt the need to trade quotes.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I was only joking!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

Oh my! Terribly sorry. The tone is typically rather genteel but your bite marks are sometimes still evident.
The Golden Mean, if too detached, can be a little mean too.
“Everything in moderation, including moderation” –Oscar Wilde (might be misattributed or borrowed from an earlier source).

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

AJ Mac having worked in the Liverpool Docks there is nothing you have said which could cause offence.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Gosh! I’m deeply shocked that you should think I am outspoken, when I strive to be a paragon of virtue and follow the Ancient Greek adage of “moderation in all things”.*

I shall have to try much harder!

(* Hesiod, 7th century BC to use Christian chronology.)

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

As we are both quite outspoken, Mr. Stanhope, I’ve sure you’ve has comments “quarantined” for 12 hours before. When/if it trickles through, I think you’ll see it’s quite moderate in tone by my “standards”.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“Publish and be damned”.*

(*Who?)

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

William Pitt the Elder put it best like this*:

“The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail — its roof may shake — the wind may blow through it — the storm may enter — the rain may enter — but the King of England CANNOT** enter — all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement!

Incidentally as you probably know Robert Peel gave us the Metropolitan Police in 1829, and a return to Income Tax in 1841. Thus did the ‘rot’ begin.

(* Speech before the Excise Bill, 1763.)
(** My emphasis.)

Last edited 9 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago

Thank you. The comments of Pitt The Elder are vital to remember . I think it used the case that able bodied men were expected to arrest criminals and hold them until the Police arrived. Thus able bodied were expected to be responsible. By able bodied men no longer being expected to or even allowed to arrest criminals we have given up our freedom to the State. Freedom can only exist where people accept the responsible to financially support and protect themselves. A society where people believe the State should protect them is one where is accepts it can control one’s life.
What did de Beauvoir to fight the nazi occupation ? Hallows GC, Szabo GC , Khan GC plus others risked torture and murder. The working class women of Britain had their men folk killed, crippled, they slogged their guts out in factories and farms; saw their homes destroyed yet their spirit never broke.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago

Thank you. The comments of Pitt The Elder are vital to remember . I think it used the case that able bodied men were expected to arrest criminals and hold them until the Police arrived. Thus able bodied were expected to be responsible. By able bodied men no longer being expected to or even allowed to arrest criminals we have given up our freedom to the State. Freedom can only exist where people accept the responsible to financially support and protect themselves. A society where people believe the State should protect them is one where is accepts it can control one’s life.
What did de Beauvoir to fight the nazi occupation ? Hallows GC, Szabo GC , Khan GC plus others risked torture and murder. The working class women of Britain had their men folk killed, crippled, they slogged their guts out in factories and farms; saw their homes destroyed yet their spirit never broke.

Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

“The people were extremely free, pre 1914 taxes were minimal, the state was minimal, one could buy guns from hardware shops, no conscription, laws were few and those which existed were upheld and people were expected to support and defend themselves.”
Yes, but everyone was a racist, sexist, homophobe. And you were forced to rely on your family in case you got sick, got old, lost your job, etc. And you had to fund your own education. And there was much less jet travel. They didn’t even have the internet!
We have more government because we decided we needed more government. There are many volumes of political theory explaining why this always happens in societies. In America they tried to erect some firm boundaries to prevent it from happening, but boundaries are only as reliable as the people enforcing them. So here we are.

Last edited 9 months ago by Kirk Susong
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  Kirk Susong

St Thomas’ Hospital founded 1107 .

Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

National Health Service founded 1948. If you want to get back to the kind of free society you’d apparently like to get back to, you’ll have to explain, understand and respond to the electoral impulses that brought us out of it.

Last edited 9 months ago by Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

National Health Service founded 1948. If you want to get back to the kind of free society you’d apparently like to get back to, you’ll have to explain, understand and respond to the electoral impulses that brought us out of it.

Last edited 9 months ago by Kirk Susong
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  Kirk Susong

St Thomas’ Hospital founded 1107 .

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Many of them were free to starve or drop out of/finish school at 14 and go to the factory with a life expectancy of about 60. The State could throw you in a workhouse or conscript you into the army if you were indigent or publicly drunk (on one unlucky occasion even) in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Extremely free? To me, that is nostalgic overreach on steroids. “The People” who could vote in the year you name didn’t include women and many of the men would soon be forced to die in trenches to preserve the freedom of Posterity.
I’m in partial sympathy with some of your points about better order, decency, and physical hardihood, etc. in previous generations, but your earlier claim that “you don’t say the past is better, but that we can learn from it” (or something similar) seems dishonest. I feel that you reflexively defend the Old Ways, with few exceptions.
Would you honestly love to live in the 1850s? (Ok, I admit I think I might myself–but my moderating reason and general reader’s sense of history warns me that if I were to go there, I’d better still be a white man, and one with either more status or a smaller mouth than I have in my current incarnation).
Please tell me where I’m wrong. I would expect nothing less from you, Charles.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

*posted
*re-removed
*re-restored
*removed yet again
(what a tedious see-saw; is someone flagging my comment?)
*18-hour quarantine, with brief intermissions, seemingly ended. I wonder what caused this.
*last one because I know this is not momentous interesting documentation: post removed again. Didn’t say anything abusive or use hot-button terminology.
Editors: I know my rather mild comments are in there somewhere because you’ve “flashed” them at least four times.
But whether or not the comments post: Thanks for publishing most of my excessive participation here. I didn’t mean to clog this board with so much AJ Mac—— (rest of name surname withheld) and I will make a real effort to shut up a little more often in the future. Selah

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

William Pitt the Elder put it best like this*:

“The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail — its roof may shake — the wind may blow through it — the storm may enter — the rain may enter — but the King of England CANNOT** enter — all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement!

Incidentally as you probably know Robert Peel gave us the Metropolitan Police in 1829, and a return to Income Tax in 1841. Thus did the ‘rot’ begin.

(* Speech before the Excise Bill, 1763.)
(** My emphasis.)

Last edited 9 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

“The people were extremely free, pre 1914 taxes were minimal, the state was minimal, one could buy guns from hardware shops, no conscription, laws were few and those which existed were upheld and people were expected to support and defend themselves.”
Yes, but everyone was a racist, sexist, homophobe. And you were forced to rely on your family in case you got sick, got old, lost your job, etc. And you had to fund your own education. And there was much less jet travel. They didn’t even have the internet!
We have more government because we decided we needed more government. There are many volumes of political theory explaining why this always happens in societies. In America they tried to erect some firm boundaries to prevent it from happening, but boundaries are only as reliable as the people enforcing them. So here we are.

Last edited 9 months ago by Kirk Susong
marjan m
marjan m
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I think something changed when we criminalized speech. That was new and has a very strong effect on our ability to think.

John Riordan
John Riordan
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“What previous decade, if not idealized Golden Age, do you long to re-inhabit or restore?”

Short answer is the 1990s. The trick would be working out how to stop it turning into the noughties with its banking crisis and the gradual collapse that followed.

Or perhaps I’m only saying that because I was in my late 20s / early 30s, earning a lot of money and having the time of my life.

Last edited 9 months ago by John Riordan
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  John Riordan

1955-1965. War over but we were still basking in the illusion that we HAD won it!

Some of the old Empire still standing, and a joy to visit on say a Union Castle Liner to Cape Town, or if to the old American colonies then it was RMS Queen Mary to New York, and if ‘down under’ then it had to be P&O.

Something like a proper Tory government in power. Additionally nearly everyone in government and opposition had actually fought in the War.

The NHS staffed by indomitable figures as portrayed by the late Hattie Jacques. Oxbridge still very much in the ‘Porterhouse Blue’ era.

Capital Punishment still in full ‘swing’, but it was very much a ‘green and pleasant land’. Enid Blyton holidays to Cornwall hauled by the fabled Atlantic Coast Express (ACE) or the Cornish Riviera Express, still in Great Western (GWR) livery.

Jobs galore and rising wages, rationing finished in ‘54, so time to spend. ‘The City’ still a revered institution where “ my word is my bond” really did mean that, and woe betide any who transgressed!

The birth of the television revolution, but we still had the fabulous BBC World Service for those who craved ‘real’ news and comment, in addition to the revered London Times, otherwise known as ‘The Times’!

Putting down my rose tinted Zeiss Binoculars for a moment, there were obviously dark clouds ahead but for most of us it was a case of “Occ est vivere”- that is to live’!

‘Sic transit gloria Mundi’.

Last edited 9 months ago by Charles Stanhope
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

Spanning two decades is kind of cheating…but I’ll allow it! Wouldn’t you truly rather “return” to 65-55 BC though?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you.
Yes that would be very stimulating if one was stationed towards the top of the pile.

However life expectancy even there, was rather too short for most.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

Exactly. Lends more urgency to pagan inscription you often cite.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

As an aside I am much amused by the vitriol that is produced by the mention of the names Trump, Johnson or Farage.

People I used to admire go completely berserk at the mention of these names and any sense of decency and common sense is immediately jettisoned!

The late Julius Caesar seems to have had the same problem with the self styled elite! Despite his much heralded ‘clemency’ it availed him nothing, and they ultimately stabbed him to death, as you well know!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

I know what you mean, though I do think there’s a comparable if not equivalent trigger with AOC (that woke US congresswoman), Barack Obama, and maybe Hunter Biden in the reverse direction.
Certainly the size of the Trump reaction, both with his supporters and detractors, is something I’ve never witnessed around any other person. Some people seem to need you to share their reverence: “Donald John Trump is the greatest president this country has ever seen!” and others for you to be as upset and worried about him as they are: “This is unprecedented!”. (Yeah, I noticed). People are more hostile and unhinged even than earlier this century and 2 plus years of overzealous covid measures hasn’t helped our collective sanity.
Was Julius Caesar from some disreputable bloodline, a “non-elite” general?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

I know what you mean, though I do think there’s a comparable if not equivalent trigger with AOC (that woke US congresswoman), Barack Obama, and maybe Hunter Biden in the reverse direction.
Certainly the size of the Trump reaction, both with his supporters and detractors, is something I’ve never witnessed around any other person. Some people seem to need you to share their reverence: “Donald John Trump is the greatest president this country has ever seen!” and others for you to be as upset and worried about him as they are: “This is unprecedented!”. (Yeah, I noticed). People are more hostile and unhinged even than earlier this century and 2 plus years of overzealous covid measures hasn’t helped our collective sanity.
Was Julius Caesar from some disreputable bloodline, a “non-elite” general?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

As an aside I am much amused by the vitriol that is produced by the mention of the names Trump, Johnson or Farage.

People I used to admire go completely berserk at the mention of these names and any sense of decency and common sense is immediately jettisoned!

The late Julius Caesar seems to have had the same problem with the self styled elite! Despite his much heralded ‘clemency’ it availed him nothing, and they ultimately stabbed him to death, as you well know!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

Exactly. Lends more urgency to pagan inscription you often cite.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you.
Yes that would be very stimulating if one was stationed towards the top of the pile.

However life expectancy even there, was rather too short for most.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago

And so the seeds of destruction were sowed. Ignoring the German miracle. German unions runs by craft ones whereas in Britain the un and semi skilled who promoted over manning and opposition to new technology. The ignoring of the integrated circuit, closure of Suez Canal and development of of 500K T carriers and movement of shipbuilding to Japan, opening of vast open cast coal mines on Mississippi Missouri river system, devlopment of Concorde rather than planes by B Wallis, having Cousins as Minister if technology under Wilson.
Charles, post 1945 we were living in a technological fools paradise. Our aircratf industry was destroyed, we failed to invest in computers and our best brains went overseas.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Too true I’m afraid.
We were indeed living in a ‘fools paradise’, ALL paid for by the US and its very generous Marshall Aid Plan,, and the not quite so generous Stafford Cripps Loan(s).

Your choice of the Aircraft industry is apposite. All the wartime bravado of the Spitfire, Hurricane, Lancaster and Halifax! Then post ‘45 the debacle of the ‘Brabazon’, (Bristol), the Princess Flying boats (Saunders Roe), the Britannia ( Bristol again!) and the ill fated Comet (De Havilland) and so it went on and on, until the final fiasco of Concord(e) as you so rightly say.
Where now are any of those famous names, Handley Page, Supermarine, Vickers etc etc?

Of course many were deluded by the opiate of the NHS, “free at the point of sale”, such seductive utopian tosh!
For others it was the delusion that we were still a Great Power, when in reality we were a near bankrupt industrial cripple.

However for some, myself included , blissfully unaware of the catastrophe awaiting us, it was a very pleasant time, as I outlined in the previous post!

Last edited 9 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago

We have a good future. What we have is vast spare tyre of ineffectual impractical effete left wing white collar middle class types, largely humanities graduates, in and around the public sector and plaque in our arteries. Lose these two types of fat and replace it with strong dense bone and muscle comprising enterprising innovative tough and technically skilled people and we can soar.
As all our great engineers know, especially when it comes to flight it is the power to weight, strength to weight ratios and volumes which are important. The Spitfire had a very low frontal area and The Merlin engine was smaller than the German engines and the power was increased from 900 HP to 1800 HP with use of two speed super charger. The Griffon at 36 L was only slightly larger than the Merlin.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Since my ever-so-earnest other reply won’t post: On another board we can discuss the “extreme freedom” of a year (1914) when women could not yet vote, as young men were about to march to death in the trenches to secure freedom for Posterity (then return home to factory work and death by about age 60) and the non-oppressive, trivial influence of a State that could conscript you for being a drunk vagrant or cut off your head for publishing a pamphlet they didn’t like. Cheers.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I was not saying the past was perfect. What I said was the freedom we enjoyed, our honesty and sense of fairplay enabled improvements to be made. Our freedom enbled our Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions to occur which meant in the first time in history freed humans from the fear of mass starvation. We have also been freed from the fear of military dictatorship. Enjoyed the rule of law.
Another fear Britain has been free of the is the mass slaughter and destruction of civilisations which has taken place, examples are Attila The Hun and collapse of Roman Empire, Genghis Khan, Timur the Lame , etc.
Even the murder rate in Britain was lower than in Europe.

One needs to contrast the life of the average Briton with those elsewhere in the World to appreciate what we have had in this country. The reality is that most intellectuals, especially of the Left have an inadequate grasp of History, especially World History and have never had responsibility for construction or life and death decisions in other parts of the World. Orwell served in Burma, hence his insights.
If a writer had served in combat from 1940, worked in the Punjub or Calcutta in 1947, Biafra late 1960s, East Pakistan in 1970 War, Ethiopia in early 1970s famine, Cambodia under Pol Plot, Jugoslavia, in 1990s, Algeria 1990s, or even Sicily during mafia conflicts of 1980s, they would realise how lucky they were to live in the English Speaking World. ,

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

That all fine enough, Charles. You don’t say it’s perfect, I admit, but sometimes still indulge in wholesale idealizations of certain historical periods.
I had to take issue with both “extreme freedom” and the notion that the British State was not oppressive or massive prior to 1914. In fact, the two centuries prior to 1914 saw the rise and initial decline of the UK’s truly global Empire. That’s as big as a State ever got in history, or likely ever will again. Mightn’t have felt that way to the lads around Liverpool docks and pubs, but even so.
All of us should recognize how lucky we are to live in the English- speaking world. As a left-leaning centrist “intellectual” (kind of) who, to my embarrassment, is fluent only in the Mother Tongue, I’m grateful that that tongue is the hybrid miracle of English language, with a global reach that exceeds that of Great Britain at her height.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I have never said it was ideal. I said we were  free to make our mistakes. We grow by making mistakes learning from them; it is called sagacity. One cannot be wise after the event if one attempts nothing.
Barnes Wallis said the genius of the English was due to their individuality. People who are free to innovate, accept responsibility for success and failure, free to speak their mind, benefit from their industry, rise to the challenges of life, support themselves financially and defend themselves, physically and intellectually , provide charity to those who are deserving and unfortunate, become emotionally mature responsible adults. Those who do not, remain emotionally immature  spoilt  irresponsible  effete impractical children, dependent on others, blaming others for their failures, yet wanting to claim authority for  their successes.
The above comments were made by Orwell in his various essays.
Why did de Beauvoir not copy Andree de Jongh ?
Andrée de Jongh – Wikipedia
de jongh and other members of the Comet Line risked their lives smuggling airmen into Spain. Why is it left wing feminists do not set up as icons all those women who served in the Resistance in WW2 yet consider de Beauvoir an example to follow?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I don’t know. I’m not in sympathy with left- wing feminists as a group at all. Nor any left-wing faction as such. Not one. But if you think Tony Blair was far left-wing, for example, we have a different lack of mutual understanding at play too.
Please don’t group associate me with every viewpoint you think “someone like me” would share, if that is what you are doing; nearly all us of do that, at times, me included. Forgive me if I misread your latest reply, in part, as a challenge for me to defend left-wing feminism.
You have great understanding and appreciation for the idiosyncrasies and varieties of English character across various eras. You express this personal knowledge and acquired historical understanding of your nation’s character (characters) and history (histories) in thoughtful, informative, and entertaining ways. What I wish were less often the case: You make a one-side argument for the superiority of, for example, the 1950s over the 2020s or the tough working man over the soft intellectual. (By the way, though I’m not some big tough guy, I am not a weakling or picture of effeteness, despite my fancy talk; I come from an extended family of farmers and tire salesmen/mechanics and I have done real labor. I can act blunt and normal too, and in some ways I am, for real).
And you do suggest, even insist, that one is better. To keep saying otherwise is dishonest. I know there is a measure nuance and fairness from you too, but not neutrality–which is fine.
Underneath their periwigs, trousers, and Doc Martins, aren’t Englishmen across various ages rather more similar than you seem to allow? Aren’t they more similar to all Europeans, to Americans, to all men, than you seem to allow?
You my have the last word on the board if so inclined, Mr. Hedges.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Blair is an ex Trotskyist. I have never said one period is superior to another. What I have said is that one needs to to look at all aspects of history, of one’s own country and others which is what Charles Northcote Parkinson has said and not just view it through a lense of watered down marxism.
As Orwell pointed out, the shallow self righteous carping power worshipping left wing middle class rentier intellectual who despised physical courage and patriotism of post 1930s Britain evolved into a very different species.
The Squire, farmer, labourer and craftsman were similar in outlook and fought together.
What I have said is that one ideally needs to thrive in life which means surviving the rough and tumble . The whole point of tough sports is to build character and be able to bounce back after falls – get back into the saddle. Whether one falls over on a hard surface or is hit in a mugging, sharp reflexes, agility and a robust physique is likely to reduce the damage and pain suffered. If one has to work out of doors in cold, wet and windy conditions a certain hardiness is an advantage. Complaining about the cold is the quickest way of alienating colleagues.
Proverbs clearly points out the obtaining skills, learning discernment, self discipline, developing wisdom are advantages .
My overal view is that to benefit from freedom and keep it, one needs to embrace responsibility and develop one’s abilities which means tempering one’s mind and body with adversity.
Booker T Washington said the African American should pursue entrepreneurship and education; J Kennedy said they should bear every burden and do not ask what the country can do for you, ask what you can do for one’s country and Dr M L King said ” “Judge me on my character “.
The Nazi threat was the greatest military threat to the world, especially if they had made a nuclear bomb.
Stalin said ” The British bought time,Americans materials and the Soviets blood “.
The time the British Empire bought between September 1939 and el Alamein in Autumn 1942 was bought by men and women already toughened from labour and sport.
Whether Violette Szabo GC ( The Greatest of Us All – Odette Hallows GC ) ” , Col Bill Hudson DSO OBE, Lt Col Paddy Blair Mayne DSO *** or Geoffrey Wellum DFC , a pilot in the Battle of Britain at 18 years of age, their aptitude was because they were fit, had superb reflexes and coordination from their sport. Britain did not have the time to develop tough people, luckily we had enough.
To paraphrase Wellington ” The Battle of Waterloo was won on the Playing Fields of Eton “.
Compare de Beauvoir with Szabo GC . De Beauvoir all talk, no action ; Szabo GC all action, no talk.
It comes down to a basic fact, intellectuals do not improve conditions: craftsmen and engineers do and those in the Armed Forces who endure combat to defend freedom.
The greatest skill of intellectuals is persuading people to pay them any attention. Marx developed class conflict, Joseph Bazelgette built sewers and reduced cholera.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Blair is an ex Trotskyist. I have never said one period is superior to another. What I have said is that one needs to to look at all aspects of history, of one’s own country and others which is what Charles Northcote Parkinson has said and not just view it through a lense of watered down marxism.
As Orwell pointed out, the shallow self righteous carping power worshipping left wing middle class rentier intellectual who despised physical courage and patriotism of post 1930s Britain evolved into a very different species.
The Squire, farmer, labourer and craftsman were similar in outlook and fought together.
What I have said is that one ideally needs to thrive in life which means surviving the rough and tumble . The whole point of tough sports is to build character and be able to bounce back after falls – get back into the saddle. Whether one falls over on a hard surface or is hit in a mugging, sharp reflexes, agility and a robust physique is likely to reduce the damage and pain suffered. If one has to work out of doors in cold, wet and windy conditions a certain hardiness is an advantage. Complaining about the cold is the quickest way of alienating colleagues.
Proverbs clearly points out the obtaining skills, learning discernment, self discipline, developing wisdom are advantages .
My overal view is that to benefit from freedom and keep it, one needs to embrace responsibility and develop one’s abilities which means tempering one’s mind and body with adversity.
Booker T Washington said the African American should pursue entrepreneurship and education; J Kennedy said they should bear every burden and do not ask what the country can do for you, ask what you can do for one’s country and Dr M L King said ” “Judge me on my character “.
The Nazi threat was the greatest military threat to the world, especially if they had made a nuclear bomb.
Stalin said ” The British bought time,Americans materials and the Soviets blood “.
The time the British Empire bought between September 1939 and el Alamein in Autumn 1942 was bought by men and women already toughened from labour and sport.
Whether Violette Szabo GC ( The Greatest of Us All – Odette Hallows GC ) ” , Col Bill Hudson DSO OBE, Lt Col Paddy Blair Mayne DSO *** or Geoffrey Wellum DFC , a pilot in the Battle of Britain at 18 years of age, their aptitude was because they were fit, had superb reflexes and coordination from their sport. Britain did not have the time to develop tough people, luckily we had enough.
To paraphrase Wellington ” The Battle of Waterloo was won on the Playing Fields of Eton “.
Compare de Beauvoir with Szabo GC . De Beauvoir all talk, no action ; Szabo GC all action, no talk.
It comes down to a basic fact, intellectuals do not improve conditions: craftsmen and engineers do and those in the Armed Forces who endure combat to defend freedom.
The greatest skill of intellectuals is persuading people to pay them any attention. Marx developed class conflict, Joseph Bazelgette built sewers and reduced cholera.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I don’t know. I’m not in sympathy with left- wing feminists as a group at all. Nor any left-wing faction as such. Not one. But if you think Tony Blair was far left-wing, for example, we have a different lack of mutual understanding at play too.
Please don’t group associate me with every viewpoint you think “someone like me” would share, if that is what you are doing; nearly all us of do that, at times, me included. Forgive me if I misread your latest reply, in part, as a challenge for me to defend left-wing feminism.
You have great understanding and appreciation for the idiosyncrasies and varieties of English character across various eras. You express this personal knowledge and acquired historical understanding of your nation’s character (characters) and history (histories) in thoughtful, informative, and entertaining ways. What I wish were less often the case: You make a one-side argument for the superiority of, for example, the 1950s over the 2020s or the tough working man over the soft intellectual. (By the way, though I’m not some big tough guy, I am not a weakling or picture of effeteness, despite my fancy talk; I come from an extended family of farmers and tire salesmen/mechanics and I have done real labor. I can act blunt and normal too, and in some ways I am, for real).
And you do suggest, even insist, that one is better. To keep saying otherwise is dishonest. I know there is a measure nuance and fairness from you too, but not neutrality–which is fine.
Underneath their periwigs, trousers, and Doc Martins, aren’t Englishmen across various ages rather more similar than you seem to allow? Aren’t they more similar to all Europeans, to Americans, to all men, than you seem to allow?
You my have the last word on the board if so inclined, Mr. Hedges.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I have never said it was ideal. I said we were  free to make our mistakes. We grow by making mistakes learning from them; it is called sagacity. One cannot be wise after the event if one attempts nothing.
Barnes Wallis said the genius of the English was due to their individuality. People who are free to innovate, accept responsibility for success and failure, free to speak their mind, benefit from their industry, rise to the challenges of life, support themselves financially and defend themselves, physically and intellectually , provide charity to those who are deserving and unfortunate, become emotionally mature responsible adults. Those who do not, remain emotionally immature  spoilt  irresponsible  effete impractical children, dependent on others, blaming others for their failures, yet wanting to claim authority for  their successes.
The above comments were made by Orwell in his various essays.
Why did de Beauvoir not copy Andree de Jongh ?
Andrée de Jongh – Wikipedia
de jongh and other members of the Comet Line risked their lives smuggling airmen into Spain. Why is it left wing feminists do not set up as icons all those women who served in the Resistance in WW2 yet consider de Beauvoir an example to follow?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

That all fine enough, Charles. You don’t say it’s perfect, I admit, but sometimes still indulge in wholesale idealizations of certain historical periods.
I had to take issue with both “extreme freedom” and the notion that the British State was not oppressive or massive prior to 1914. In fact, the two centuries prior to 1914 saw the rise and initial decline of the UK’s truly global Empire. That’s as big as a State ever got in history, or likely ever will again. Mightn’t have felt that way to the lads around Liverpool docks and pubs, but even so.
All of us should recognize how lucky we are to live in the English- speaking world. As a left-leaning centrist “intellectual” (kind of) who, to my embarrassment, is fluent only in the Mother Tongue, I’m grateful that that tongue is the hybrid miracle of English language, with a global reach that exceeds that of Great Britain at her height.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I was not saying the past was perfect. What I said was the freedom we enjoyed, our honesty and sense of fairplay enabled improvements to be made. Our freedom enbled our Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions to occur which meant in the first time in history freed humans from the fear of mass starvation. We have also been freed from the fear of military dictatorship. Enjoyed the rule of law.
Another fear Britain has been free of the is the mass slaughter and destruction of civilisations which has taken place, examples are Attila The Hun and collapse of Roman Empire, Genghis Khan, Timur the Lame , etc.
Even the murder rate in Britain was lower than in Europe.

One needs to contrast the life of the average Briton with those elsewhere in the World to appreciate what we have had in this country. The reality is that most intellectuals, especially of the Left have an inadequate grasp of History, especially World History and have never had responsibility for construction or life and death decisions in other parts of the World. Orwell served in Burma, hence his insights.
If a writer had served in combat from 1940, worked in the Punjub or Calcutta in 1947, Biafra late 1960s, East Pakistan in 1970 War, Ethiopia in early 1970s famine, Cambodia under Pol Plot, Jugoslavia, in 1990s, Algeria 1990s, or even Sicily during mafia conflicts of 1980s, they would realise how lucky they were to live in the English Speaking World. ,

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I admire you confidence!

As you say the ‘sclerotic’ Civil Service is the problem, and its fantastic index linked pensions are an even greater one.
Given its gargantuan size, it now has ‘critical mass’ and does what it dam well pleases. In short it is a national disgrace, and probably beyond reform.

I didn’t know that about the Merlin, thank you.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Since my ever-so-earnest other reply won’t post: On another board we can discuss the “extreme freedom” of a year (1914) when women could not yet vote, as young men were about to march to death in the trenches to secure freedom for Posterity (then return home to factory work and death by about age 60) and the non-oppressive, trivial influence of a State that could conscript you for being a drunk vagrant or cut off your head for publishing a pamphlet they didn’t like. Cheers.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I admire you confidence!

As you say the ‘sclerotic’ Civil Service is the problem, and its fantastic index linked pensions are an even greater one.
Given its gargantuan size, it now has ‘critical mass’ and does what it dam well pleases. In short it is a national disgrace, and probably beyond reform.

I didn’t know that about the Merlin, thank you.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago

We have a good future. What we have is vast spare tyre of ineffectual impractical effete left wing white collar middle class types, largely humanities graduates, in and around the public sector and plaque in our arteries. Lose these two types of fat and replace it with strong dense bone and muscle comprising enterprising innovative tough and technically skilled people and we can soar.
As all our great engineers know, especially when it comes to flight it is the power to weight, strength to weight ratios and volumes which are important. The Spitfire had a very low frontal area and The Merlin engine was smaller than the German engines and the power was increased from 900 HP to 1800 HP with use of two speed super charger. The Griffon at 36 L was only slightly larger than the Merlin.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Too true I’m afraid.
We were indeed living in a ‘fools paradise’, ALL paid for by the US and its very generous Marshall Aid Plan,, and the not quite so generous Stafford Cripps Loan(s).

Your choice of the Aircraft industry is apposite. All the wartime bravado of the Spitfire, Hurricane, Lancaster and Halifax! Then post ‘45 the debacle of the ‘Brabazon’, (Bristol), the Princess Flying boats (Saunders Roe), the Britannia ( Bristol again!) and the ill fated Comet (De Havilland) and so it went on and on, until the final fiasco of Concord(e) as you so rightly say.
Where now are any of those famous names, Handley Page, Supermarine, Vickers etc etc?

Of course many were deluded by the opiate of the NHS, “free at the point of sale”, such seductive utopian tosh!
For others it was the delusion that we were still a Great Power, when in reality we were a near bankrupt industrial cripple.

However for some, myself included , blissfully unaware of the catastrophe awaiting us, it was a very pleasant time, as I outlined in the previous post!

Last edited 9 months ago by Charles Stanhope
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

Spanning two decades is kind of cheating…but I’ll allow it! Wouldn’t you truly rather “return” to 65-55 BC though?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago

And so the seeds of destruction were sowed. Ignoring the German miracle. German unions runs by craft ones whereas in Britain the un and semi skilled who promoted over manning and opposition to new technology. The ignoring of the integrated circuit, closure of Suez Canal and development of of 500K T carriers and movement of shipbuilding to Japan, opening of vast open cast coal mines on Mississippi Missouri river system, devlopment of Concorde rather than planes by B Wallis, having Cousins as Minister if technology under Wilson.
Charles, post 1945 we were living in a technological fools paradise. Our aircratf industry was destroyed, we failed to invest in computers and our best brains went overseas.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  John Riordan

1955-1965. War over but we were still basking in the illusion that we HAD won it!

Some of the old Empire still standing, and a joy to visit on say a Union Castle Liner to Cape Town, or if to the old American colonies then it was RMS Queen Mary to New York, and if ‘down under’ then it had to be P&O.

Something like a proper Tory government in power. Additionally nearly everyone in government and opposition had actually fought in the War.

The NHS staffed by indomitable figures as portrayed by the late Hattie Jacques. Oxbridge still very much in the ‘Porterhouse Blue’ era.

Capital Punishment still in full ‘swing’, but it was very much a ‘green and pleasant land’. Enid Blyton holidays to Cornwall hauled by the fabled Atlantic Coast Express (ACE) or the Cornish Riviera Express, still in Great Western (GWR) livery.

Jobs galore and rising wages, rationing finished in ‘54, so time to spend. ‘The City’ still a revered institution where “ my word is my bond” really did mean that, and woe betide any who transgressed!

The birth of the television revolution, but we still had the fabulous BBC World Service for those who craved ‘real’ news and comment, in addition to the revered London Times, otherwise known as ‘The Times’!

Putting down my rose tinted Zeiss Binoculars for a moment, there were obviously dark clouds ahead but for most of us it was a case of “Occ est vivere”- that is to live’!

‘Sic transit gloria Mundi’.

Last edited 9 months ago by Charles Stanhope
jim peden
jim peden
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Good question. I remember the 90s when it felt – for a few years after the fall of the Berlin wall – that there had been an outbreak of common sense.

I think Walter Marvell is right to say that our freedoms of thought and word have been eroded over the past couple of decades. If the UK government thinks it a good idea to create a ‘nudge unit’ to get its way by propagandising the man in the street then I take that as a sign of a “corrupted undemocratic public space”. There are many other indicators as the recent public health interventions amply demonstrated.

We’re in an information war and its outcome is far from certain but I’m more optimistic about the future because we do have a growing and erudite band of critics and dissenters who have been given a voice through unherd, substack and others.

Last edited 9 months ago by jim peden
Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I am not harking back with nostalgia to any decade in particular AJ. I am looking at the present. What I am expressing is an ever deepening troubling awareness here in the UK that our bedrock fundamental values and practices are being swept away by the double revolution of Modernizing Blairism (97) and us becoming a compliant EU Clone Statelet (92). The most basic belief was faith in the fairness of our law, confidence in the right to live freely and to speak bravely without coercive tyrannical intervention by an overbearing unchecked State. All these beliefs have been shattered. We have seen a vast new and detached political class ‘do a Trump’ and seek to overturn a referendum result that it hated. We have seen our housing and labour markets crash and warp through a combination of mass uncontrolled immigration (+6/8m) and a linked rigged property boom which made said elite as rich as Croesus. Common law- the thread linking us to our past and the best guarantor of liberty – has been subverted by codified European and human right laws often hostile to the public will (see the unchecked criminal people trade over the channel and the utter impotence of the elected Executive). Todays small news see farmers and hunts and all de-banked by the Woke Establishment and MI5 repeat the insidious cowardly lie that right wing terrorists on the web are a greater threat than Islamists. Then look at Kathleen’s own story to see the powers exerted by hate mobs flying under the flag of supposed diversity and the crushing in civic society and in the captured public sector of any dissent to the new State credos. This is not how it was AJ. Ever. But our resistance is futile as the political classes, lawyers, State machine and media have all – for the first time – united to enforce their zealotry (EDI, BLM, Net Zero, Climate Boiling, Mass Migration, Super secularism) upon us. This is new. This is like no other England. And yes, too right, all four writers would be alert to the acrid stench of growing tyranny and the repression of individual liberty.

Martin Butler
Martin Butler
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Are you new to Unherd comments? The comment you are discussing is par for the course here. Tediously predictable.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“…What previous decade, if not idealized Golden Age, do you long to re-inhabit or restore?…”

I would take the 80s, and rerun them for all of eternity.

Mark M Breza
Mark M Breza
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

The Mauve Decade !o!

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You are correct to some extent. Yes, freedom is like a house that needs maintaining or else it eventually rots and crumbles, and each era has its unique set of challenges in obtaining that freedom. However, what makes our times very different is the unprecedented advance of state and corporate surveillance technologies together with the speed with which once-trusted public institutions no longer hold the pursuit of truth and objectivity as a cherished ideal.
Yes, there is a lot of doom-and-gloom thinking on Unherd, but I’d rather that than the spite and vitriol seen in the comments section in publications such as the Guardian. By talking about current events, even to the point of ad nauseam, a way may be discovered to change or reverse course.
Personally, I think the 24-hour news cycle is to blame. We’re presented with so much information that our brains simply cannot process it all, and so we are retreating into ideological bubbles which profit-seeking news sites (including Unherd) are tapping into. It’s much like when the printing press became widespread and people started believing in witches and demons again. I’m not sure what the antidote to this is, but I think it is important to remember our humanness and the humanness of those who the media are all-too-willing to paint as foes or enemies.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

The ideal is real. It felt that way in my childhood in the 50s. Much has been lost.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I can remember a time when my friends and acquaintances didn’t care about my politics. Now it’s the entire basis on which we judge each other.

Pol Pot was not a historical aberration but a grim warning of what the future may hold if we are not as militant in defence of enlightenment values as the progressives in their attempt to replace them.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

A Bryant points out from 1660 to end of 18th century dominant policy was freedom. Even pre 1914 , there was little evidence of the State. There was much resistance to starting the Police as a threat to freedom in the 1830s as men were expected to defend themselves. No pay for MPs and as land owners had no wish to be away from their estates.
The Civil Service was created in 1857 and was minimal in number. Pre 1914, the Army was small , officers went about life out of uniform. As Orwell pointed out there has never been a naval dictatorship.
The English tradition was that one could do what one wanted unless there was law preventing it. There was no droit administratif in England. The Continental system was that one could only do something if a law permitted it. There was no income tax until the Napoleonic wars and then it was low , no death duties.
The people were extremely free, pre 1914 taxes were minimal, the state was minimal, one could buy guns from hardware shops, no conscription, laws were few and those which existed were upheld and people were expected to support and defend themselves.

marjan m
marjan m
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I think something changed when we criminalized speech. That was new and has a very strong effect on our ability to think.

John Riordan
John Riordan
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“What previous decade, if not idealized Golden Age, do you long to re-inhabit or restore?”

Short answer is the 1990s. The trick would be working out how to stop it turning into the noughties with its banking crisis and the gradual collapse that followed.

Or perhaps I’m only saying that because I was in my late 20s / early 30s, earning a lot of money and having the time of my life.

Last edited 9 months ago by John Riordan
Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I grew up in N Ireland mate. I’m used to it lol

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Bad luck!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Bad luck!

Martin Butler
Martin Butler
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

As so often in the Unherd comments an article is simply an excuse for the same old rant – predictably focusing on immigration, the EU (even though we’ve left), and what is best described as the ‘political correctness gone mad’ lobby. In the world that I live in these come pretty low down my immediate concerns. Getting somewhere affordable to live comes little higher.
From this comment you would have thought we had been living under the yoke of a Corbyn government for the last 13 years.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Have a peek at Corbyn’s Manifesto. The Lockdown NHS First State of Boris Johnson exceeded the wildest dreams of Jezza!!
We are well and truly yoked. The Fool/Chancer raised the flag of profilgate Furlo money tree socialist economics, pulversed enterprise with windfall, dividend and corp taxes plus more suffocating regulation, entrenched the sickly progressive culture of me me entitlement greviance and victimhood with State bailouts; and he empowered the Remainiac Wokist Blob..(which duly went and shafted him and assorted Brex Bullies). Jezza is laughing his head on his allotment trust me!!! The only Jezza policy the Tories avoided was exiting NATO (tho the military are starved of funds) and inviting Hezbollah & PIRA vets to dine with Queen and Corgis at Windsor My post was not some rant about mass migration; that was just one of many examples of revolutionary acts knowingly enforced without popular consent. It was about the New Tyranny and suppression of individual freedom. I want the brilliant Kathleen to turn her mind to the present battle, not the past.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Your style really isn’t appropriate to this forum. It would be better to debate the specifics of what people say than to continually post these frankly rather snotty blanket dismissals.

Alternatively you could spend your time somewhere where your style of debate is more the norm. The Guardian perhaps.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Telling someone to go and post elsewhere is simply infantile. Just the same as Grauniad poster saying ‘you’ll be happier in the Mail’. I didn’t find the poster’s comment particularly inappropriate. He’s just expressing his opinion like everyone else.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Telling someone to go and post elsewhere is simply infantile. Just the same as Grauniad poster saying ‘you’ll be happier in the Mail’. I didn’t find the poster’s comment particularly inappropriate. He’s just expressing his opinion like everyone else.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Immigration increases demand and therefore cost of housing. A country which sends people to read low grade arts degrees rather than trade skills means cost of construction of housing increases. Political correctness increases admin cost of house builders, all those in HR departments.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Have a peek at Corbyn’s Manifesto. The Lockdown NHS First State of Boris Johnson exceeded the wildest dreams of Jezza!!
We are well and truly yoked. The Fool/Chancer raised the flag of profilgate Furlo money tree socialist economics, pulversed enterprise with windfall, dividend and corp taxes plus more suffocating regulation, entrenched the sickly progressive culture of me me entitlement greviance and victimhood with State bailouts; and he empowered the Remainiac Wokist Blob..(which duly went and shafted him and assorted Brex Bullies). Jezza is laughing his head on his allotment trust me!!! The only Jezza policy the Tories avoided was exiting NATO (tho the military are starved of funds) and inviting Hezbollah & PIRA vets to dine with Queen and Corgis at Windsor My post was not some rant about mass migration; that was just one of many examples of revolutionary acts knowingly enforced without popular consent. It was about the New Tyranny and suppression of individual freedom. I want the brilliant Kathleen to turn her mind to the present battle, not the past.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Your style really isn’t appropriate to this forum. It would be better to debate the specifics of what people say than to continually post these frankly rather snotty blanket dismissals.

Alternatively you could spend your time somewhere where your style of debate is more the norm. The Guardian perhaps.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Immigration increases demand and therefore cost of housing. A country which sends people to read low grade arts degrees rather than trade skills means cost of construction of housing increases. Political correctness increases admin cost of house builders, all those in HR departments.

Mark M Breza
Mark M Breza
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Ah the horror of the 1st person ! All the ones who start their sentences and paragraphs with the word “I” thinking the world is going to end ?
Is that why this is called the ‘I’ Gender Generation ?
Aye, Aye

Last edited 9 months ago by Mark M Breza
Mark M Breza
Mark M Breza
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Statistics prove otherwise. A lot of anecdotal stories instead of empirical proof being put forth in the comments. Aye,Aye.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
9 months ago
Reply to  Mark M Breza

Do you perchance work on a pirate ship?

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
9 months ago
Reply to  Mark M Breza

Just airy fairy anecdotes? Oh really? To quote Logan Roy, you are not a serious person. Lets do the Empircals. You disagree that A. There has been a massive unplanned influx of population since the 90s?? It exceeds the pop of Norway and some. The latest annual gross inflow was 1.2m – with no housing reservoirs and public services ready for the rush to unexpected 70m state. Proof enough? B. You deny that the tax take is at all time high (non dom I guess) and the house price inflation that saw London semis ride from 300k to 1.3m at least in a decade. Strange… C. Bailout Denial. Well we start with the Banks in 2008. Breza has missed QE of 900bn and needs a peek at his tax return to check up on the stunning sums we all now pay to service the national debt as interest rates surge….and the energy bailouts and extra millions post lockdown on benefits. Furlough? NHS expenditure? What more proofs do you need?

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
9 months ago
Reply to  Mark M Breza

Do you perchance work on a pirate ship?

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
9 months ago
Reply to  Mark M Breza

Just airy fairy anecdotes? Oh really? To quote Logan Roy, you are not a serious person. Lets do the Empircals. You disagree that A. There has been a massive unplanned influx of population since the 90s?? It exceeds the pop of Norway and some. The latest annual gross inflow was 1.2m – with no housing reservoirs and public services ready for the rush to unexpected 70m state. Proof enough? B. You deny that the tax take is at all time high (non dom I guess) and the house price inflation that saw London semis ride from 300k to 1.3m at least in a decade. Strange… C. Bailout Denial. Well we start with the Banks in 2008. Breza has missed QE of 900bn and needs a peek at his tax return to check up on the stunning sums we all now pay to service the national debt as interest rates surge….and the energy bailouts and extra millions post lockdown on benefits. Furlough? NHS expenditure? What more proofs do you need?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

The subversion of the Judiciary being the most serious of ALL the calamities that have befallen us.
The day you cannot trust a British Judge is a sad day indeed.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago

Arthur Bryant would agree with you.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
9 months ago

Arthur Bryant would agree with you.

Andrew S
Andrew S
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Great Britain had not been invaded for hundreds of years and the USA has had secure borders ever since the treaties with us and Mexico. Continental Europe thought it had, this time, found a way to avoid invasion and foreign dominance, at least other than that which was willingly entered into by their politicians (membership of the EU).

The left had been infiltrating institutions for decades but the pace was faster over the past 30-40 years. Roughly when we thought we had seen-off the Societ threat the left accelerated their mission. The theory of the end of history was a convenient one for the political class because they could lazily allow security to wither and serious thinking could be avoided, not that many of them outside the left have ever wanted to do much thinking.

We are experiencing what many peoples have experienced in the past. The overthrow of all we thought was stable and secure and we have no power to change it. All Westminster parties accept the changes and in the USA the Democrats are leading in alliance with some very extreme people while RINOs think the marginal tax rate, gun carrying and abortion are the only important issues (I do not deny these have importance but the loss of all else is surely more significant).
In the UK it is very very difficult to get a new party going. Perhaps we will have to establish campaigning groups instead but banks and the Electoral Commission will be principoal opponents to be overcome first.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Impossible-political-probably-shouldnt/dp/178590812X

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

My comment is not so much about your comment, Walter, but about the many and lengthy comments that follow it. What unites them, for my purpose here, is a notion that I find somewhat disturbing, one that revolves around the question of comparative suffering (who suffers more, “us” or “them”?) but applied to history (which period is worse, “now” or “then”?) instead of demography. I’ve discussed the former elsewhere, so I won’t repeat myself unless someone wants me to do so. The latter, however, is indirectly related to Stock’s article but also directly related to the current discussion
I think that it’s a serious mistake to rank historical periods according to personal and current moral standards, because our own subjectivity or smugness gets in the way. Some periods are remembered as golden ages for reasons that still make sense even after hundreds of years– Elizabethan England, the Age of Reason, Vedic India, Moorish Spain and so on–despite the fact that not everyone experienced them as halcyon days or that many today would point to flaws inherent in their very greatness. Other periods, of course, are remembered as dark ages–despite the fact that they laid the foundations for much that we value today.
My point is that both nostalgia and “presentism” often lead to distorted notions of the world in which we actually live. Does it really matter if woke totalitarianism is either worse or better than Nazi or Soviet or Maoist totalitarianism? What matters is surely that the seemingly sudden explosion of a destructive ideology, formerly contained on the academic periphery under various names, has emerged as one of the most dangerous features of life in our time and must therefore be faced with honesty, courage and tenacity in the face of daunting foes–even daunting odds. Doing so is precisely what allows us to replace cynicism with some measure of hope, after all, if not for the present then for the future.
In short, both despair over what has come to pass (as if it were the new fall of Rome) and trivialization of it (as it were no more than one political fashion in a long line of them) are less than helpful. Stock profiles these four intellectual leaders from the mid-twentieth century (although she could have chosen many others) at least partly because they remain admirable for rejecting evil in the particular form that it took in their own time. They had their job. We have ours. Wokism is what confronts us.

Last edited 9 months ago by Paul Nathanson
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I’m genuinely curious: What previous decade, if not idealized Golden Age, do you long to re-inhabit or restore? You also use capital-f Fall to suggest the prelapsarian paradise of Eden. I understand and do not dispute that the ruling mood, as a casual diagnosis, seems trapped and suspicious, at a global, national, and neighborhood level. Yet I don’t remember a period within my lifetime of about half-a-century when people, in a general or prevailing way, felt free or trustful of institutions. Somewhat more so, yes. What was the consensus view during the Thatcher or John Major years?
You seem to be saying that there is some new or singular hopelessness afoot in Britain. Is this present malaise, fear, and mutual distrust across multiple boundaries–across the Atlantic the worst since just before and just after I was born–something new in kind rather than degree? Was the window between the actual World Wars and Tony Blair a time of freedom, without threat of annihilation, or menace from previous generations of far-left ideologues with some measure of institutional capture?
Maybe, but I’ve been hearing that we’re all doomed and have fallen off the true path since I was very young, and my perusal of old books indicates a history of such sentiments since way before the birth of Jesus. In fact we are all doomed, in the sense that no one makes it out of this world alive. In my view we are just hearing the same doom-talk, angst, and genuine agony that have been interwoven into the human condition since the expulsion from the Garden. More so than in many recent decades, granted. But one has always had to fight to be free, on an individual and grander scale too. True human freedom has always been brief or rare, potential and aspirational for most. Nearly all taste it, few achieve any hold thereupon, and those lucky few may have grace to thank more than themselves alone.
Would any of Stock’s four thinkers consider ours a time of singular “unfreedom” or Blobular Statism?

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I grew up in N Ireland mate. I’m used to it lol

Martin Butler
Martin Butler
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

As so often in the Unherd comments an article is simply an excuse for the same old rant – predictably focusing on immigration, the EU (even though we’ve left), and what is best described as the ‘political correctness gone mad’ lobby. In the world that I live in these come pretty low down my immediate concerns. Getting somewhere affordable to live comes little higher.
From this comment you would have thought we had been living under the yoke of a Corbyn government for the last 13 years.

Mark M Breza
Mark M Breza
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Ah the horror of the 1st person ! All the ones who start their sentences and paragraphs with the word “I” thinking the world is going to end ?
Is that why this is called the ‘I’ Gender Generation ?
Aye, Aye

Last edited 9 months ago by Mark M Breza
Mark M Breza
Mark M Breza
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Statistics prove otherwise. A lot of anecdotal stories instead of empirical proof being put forth in the comments. Aye,Aye.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

The subversion of the Judiciary being the most serious of ALL the calamities that have befallen us.
The day you cannot trust a British Judge is a sad day indeed.

Andrew S
Andrew S
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Great Britain had not been invaded for hundreds of years and the USA has had secure borders ever since the treaties with us and Mexico. Continental Europe thought it had, this time, found a way to avoid invasion and foreign dominance, at least other than that which was willingly entered into by their politicians (membership of the EU).

The left had been infiltrating institutions for decades but the pace was faster over the past 30-40 years. Roughly when we thought we had seen-off the Societ threat the left accelerated their mission. The theory of the end of history was a convenient one for the political class because they could lazily allow security to wither and serious thinking could be avoided, not that many of them outside the left have ever wanted to do much thinking.

We are experiencing what many peoples have experienced in the past. The overthrow of all we thought was stable and secure and we have no power to change it. All Westminster parties accept the changes and in the USA the Democrats are leading in alliance with some very extreme people while RINOs think the marginal tax rate, gun carrying and abortion are the only important issues (I do not deny these have importance but the loss of all else is surely more significant).
In the UK it is very very difficult to get a new party going. Perhaps we will have to establish campaigning groups instead but banks and the Electoral Commission will be principoal opponents to be overcome first.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Impossible-political-probably-shouldnt/dp/178590812X

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
9 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

My comment is not so much about your comment, Walter, but about the many and lengthy comments that follow it. What unites them, for my purpose here, is a notion that I find somewhat disturbing, one that revolves around the question of comparative suffering (who suffers more, “us” or “them”?) but applied to history (which period is worse, “now” or “then”?) instead of demography. I’ve discussed the former elsewhere, so I won’t repeat myself unless someone wants me to do so. The latter, however, is indirectly related to Stock’s article but also directly related to the current discussion
I think that it’s a serious mistake to rank historical periods according to personal and current moral standards, because our own subjectivity or smugness gets in the way. Some periods are remembered as golden ages for reasons that still make sense even after hundreds of years– Elizabethan England, the Age of Reason, Vedic India, Moorish Spain and so on–despite the fact that not everyone experienced them as halcyon days or that many today would point to flaws inherent in their very greatness. Other periods, of course, are remembered as dark ages–despite the fact that they laid the foundations for much that we value today.
My point is that both nostalgia and “presentism” often lead to distorted notions of the world in which we actually live. Does it really matter if woke totalitarianism is either worse or better than Nazi or Soviet or Maoist totalitarianism? What matters is surely that the seemingly sudden explosion of a destructive ideology, formerly contained on the academic periphery under various names, has emerged as one of the most dangerous features of life in our time and must therefore be faced with honesty, courage and tenacity in the face of daunting foes–even daunting odds. Doing so is precisely what allows us to replace cynicism with some measure of hope, after all, if not for the present then for the future.
In short, both despair over what has come to pass (as if it were the new fall of Rome) and trivialization of it (as it were no more than one political fashion in a long line of them) are less than helpful. Stock profiles these four intellectual leaders from the mid-twentieth century (although she could have chosen many others) at least partly because they remain admirable for rejecting evil in the particular form that it took in their own time. They had their job. We have ours. Wokism is what confronts us.

Last edited 9 months ago by Paul Nathanson
Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
9 months ago

I still do not feel we have grasped fully the nature of the nightmarish Fall our society is undergoing. We once felt free. We could place our faith in our law and lawmakers. No more. We inhabit a crushing, hostile deeply corrupted undemocratic public space in which coercion and exclusion are deployed daily to further the ideological interests of a deranged zealous united progressive political class. Everywhere there are quiet horrors that stun – from debanking farmers to State backed Pol Pot like eco fanaticism and a DEI identitarianism that is poisonous, harmful to communites and suffocating. We inhabit a New Order too; because it was introduced peacefully with the accession of Blairism and Maastrict in the 1990s, we have failed to recognise what is and fail to comprehend how completely it has overturned and disfigured not just traditional means of governance, but even more precious traditional values like free speech, autonomy from the State, personal responsibility and the rule of law. What would these four make of this rot – this slow death at the hands of a crude self serving unproductive State Blob today?

Jules Anjim
Jules Anjim
9 months ago

Terrific writing, a pleasure to read.

Dermot O'Sullivan
Dermot O'Sullivan
9 months ago
Reply to  Jules Anjim

Indeed

Brooke Walford
Brooke Walford
9 months ago
Reply to  Jules Anjim

Philosophy with current applicability. Perfect exposition from context of 1940s to 2020s.

Roland Jeffery
Roland Jeffery
9 months ago
Reply to  Jules Anjim

and to re-read…

Dermot O'Sullivan
Dermot O'Sullivan
9 months ago
Reply to  Jules Anjim

Indeed

Brooke Walford
Brooke Walford
9 months ago
Reply to  Jules Anjim

Philosophy with current applicability. Perfect exposition from context of 1940s to 2020s.

Roland Jeffery
Roland Jeffery
9 months ago
Reply to  Jules Anjim

and to re-read…

Jules Anjim
Jules Anjim
9 months ago

Terrific writing, a pleasure to read.

Simon White
Simon White
9 months ago

Essays of this quality are why I subscribe.

David Morley
David Morley
9 months ago
Reply to  Simon White

Ditto

And she lives up to the Arendt quote at the end, doing her level best to focus on fact and truth and avoid a priori commitments to ideology.

David Morley
David Morley
9 months ago
Reply to  Simon White

Ditto

And she lives up to the Arendt quote at the end, doing her level best to focus on fact and truth and avoid a priori commitments to ideology.

Simon White
Simon White
9 months ago

Essays of this quality are why I subscribe.

Steve White
Steve White
9 months ago

I don’t have any real comments on the essay, other that it was very thoughtful, and even helpful. I do have two of my own personal thoughts that I came out of it with. First, you’ve got to know what you believe and why you believe it. Second, you will know them by their fruit. Meaning, people and worldviews have fruit. There are consequences that can either be good or bad, that’s the fruit. Words are just words. Narratives are just narratives. Look at the fruit, or look at the fact that they hide the fruit.

Last edited 9 months ago by Steve White
Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
9 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Excellent advice. Apply to every political philosophy today and I suspect we wouldn’t be in so much of a mess.
The only issue surrounds the question of what constitutes ‘Good’? That those who would rule us have taken to the schools to educate the young on what is ‘Good’ suggests they know that too.
Fortunately, it doesn’t appear to be quite working out as they anticipated.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
9 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Excellent advice. Apply to every political philosophy today and I suspect we wouldn’t be in so much of a mess.
The only issue surrounds the question of what constitutes ‘Good’? That those who would rule us have taken to the schools to educate the young on what is ‘Good’ suggests they know that too.
Fortunately, it doesn’t appear to be quite working out as they anticipated.

Steve White
Steve White
9 months ago

I don’t have any real comments on the essay, other that it was very thoughtful, and even helpful. I do have two of my own personal thoughts that I came out of it with. First, you’ve got to know what you believe and why you believe it. Second, you will know them by their fruit. Meaning, people and worldviews have fruit. There are consequences that can either be good or bad, that’s the fruit. Words are just words. Narratives are just narratives. Look at the fruit, or look at the fact that they hide the fruit.

Last edited 9 months ago by Steve White
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
9 months ago

Although from a different era, Stock’s writing stands alongside her four protagonists. One gets the sense that her own life and career have taken on the same kind of existential relevance for our times, and as such she also deserves to be remembered almost a century later. Of course, her story isn’t finished yet.

Do i suspect she sees in her own life and times an echo of the lives and times of her female philosophical predecessors? I do, and nothing wrong with that. Indeed, the lessons she teases out in this article depend upon it, since the balancing which we all undertake between our public and private selves has almost certainly taken on greater relevance in the age of social media. Looking back to her 20th century predecessors then, whose lives and reputations were forged in the crucible of totalitarianism and especially being females in pre-feminist societies, leads to the potential for both internal and societal speculation as to where current authoritarian trends might lead towards in terms of the public/private sense of self a century hence.

Last edited 9 months ago by Steve Murray
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
9 months ago

Although from a different era, Stock’s writing stands alongside her four protagonists. One gets the sense that her own life and career have taken on the same kind of existential relevance for our times, and as such she also deserves to be remembered almost a century later. Of course, her story isn’t finished yet.

Do i suspect she sees in her own life and times an echo of the lives and times of her female philosophical predecessors? I do, and nothing wrong with that. Indeed, the lessons she teases out in this article depend upon it, since the balancing which we all undertake between our public and private selves has almost certainly taken on greater relevance in the age of social media. Looking back to her 20th century predecessors then, whose lives and reputations were forged in the crucible of totalitarianism and especially being females in pre-feminist societies, leads to the potential for both internal and societal speculation as to where current authoritarian trends might lead towards in terms of the public/private sense of self a century hence.

Last edited 9 months ago by Steve Murray
Bernard Hill
Bernard Hill
9 months ago

…the women continue to shine on Unherd.

David Morley
David Morley
9 months ago
Reply to  Bernard Hill

Honestly – some. Some less so.

David Morley
David Morley
9 months ago
Reply to  Bernard Hill

Honestly – some. Some less so.

Bernard Hill
Bernard Hill
9 months ago

…the women continue to shine on Unherd.

David Morley
David Morley
9 months ago

Worth reading just for the Arendt quote at the end:

“The self-compulsion of ideological thinking ruins all relationships with reality… The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (the reality of experience) and the distinction between true and false (the standards of thought) no longer exist.” 

Though of course we all think she is talking about someone else – generally our ideological opponent.

Last edited 9 months ago by David Morley
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Indeed. An absolute corker of a quote, summarising neatly exactly where we’re at now.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Indeed. An absolute corker of a quote, summarising neatly exactly where we’re at now.

David Morley
David Morley
9 months ago

Worth reading just for the Arendt quote at the end:

“The self-compulsion of ideological thinking ruins all relationships with reality… The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (the reality of experience) and the distinction between true and false (the standards of thought) no longer exist.” 

Though of course we all think she is talking about someone else – generally our ideological opponent.

Last edited 9 months ago by David Morley
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago

An excellent polemic, that reminds us that the ‘Great Beast’ never sleeps.

As to the sentence “ Equally, the public square has also got a lot noisier since 1943, and it’s even harder to tell who the bad guys are”.

I must fervently disagree! I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever identifying who the “bad guys” are, nor for that matter the bad girls.It just takes practice, years of it.

David Morley
David Morley
9 months ago

I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever identifying who the “bad guys” are

You are in good company. There are lots of people just as sure as you are who the good guys and bad guys are.

Unfortunately they do not identify the same people you do – and may even think that you are one of the bad guys.

Last edited 9 months ago by David Morley
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

‘They’ are entitled to their opinion, and may even be correct.
History, as always, will be the judge.

Last edited 9 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
9 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Thank you David. Yes, we know that They are the bad guys and we should not hesitate to kill them. OTOH, They know that we are the bad guys and They will not hesitate to kill us.
Let’s not pay any attention to the muddle headed Solzhenitsyn:
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Yes! Thank you for quoting part of that brilliant passage from The Gulag Archipelago.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Yes! Thank you for quoting part of that brilliant passage from The Gulag Archipelago.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

‘They’ are entitled to their opinion, and may even be correct.
History, as always, will be the judge.

Last edited 9 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
9 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Thank you David. Yes, we know that They are the bad guys and we should not hesitate to kill them. OTOH, They know that we are the bad guys and They will not hesitate to kill us.
Let’s not pay any attention to the muddle headed Solzhenitsyn:
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

David Morley
David Morley
9 months ago

I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever identifying who the “bad guys” are

You are in good company. There are lots of people just as sure as you are who the good guys and bad guys are.

Unfortunately they do not identify the same people you do – and may even think that you are one of the bad guys.

Last edited 9 months ago by David Morley
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago

An excellent polemic, that reminds us that the ‘Great Beast’ never sleeps.

As to the sentence “ Equally, the public square has also got a lot noisier since 1943, and it’s even harder to tell who the bad guys are”.

I must fervently disagree! I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever identifying who the “bad guys” are, nor for that matter the bad girls.It just takes practice, years of it.

Kathleen Burnett
Kathleen Burnett
9 months ago

Nicely written essay; clear without using ‘big words’ (okay, polycule), or convoluted sentences (thanks), or the intention to show how clever is the author. It makes it all the harder to remove any biases and exit the end of the review with something close to the truth.

Terry Davies
Terry Davies
9 months ago

Yeah, polycule stumped me as well! A great read and a bit of brain ache….

Last edited 9 months ago by Terry Davies
Roland Jeffery
Roland Jeffery
9 months ago
Reply to  Terry Davies

Polycule was new to me too, but so much better than the coy ‘love triangle’ or unclear ‘open relationship’. Must use soon…

Roland Jeffery
Roland Jeffery
9 months ago
Reply to  Terry Davies

Polycule was new to me too, but so much better than the coy ‘love triangle’ or unclear ‘open relationship’. Must use soon…

Terry Davies
Terry Davies
9 months ago

Yeah, polycule stumped me as well! A great read and a bit of brain ache….

Last edited 9 months ago by Terry Davies
Kathleen Burnett
Kathleen Burnett
9 months ago

Nicely written essay; clear without using ‘big words’ (okay, polycule), or convoluted sentences (thanks), or the intention to show how clever is the author. It makes it all the harder to remove any biases and exit the end of the review with something close to the truth.

N Satori
N Satori
9 months ago

Interesting to see how the actual lives of great thinkers play out. Nietzche for example, ever linked to the concept of a superman, was something of a hypochondriac.
Ayn Rand, the arch anti-collectivist surrounded herself with a group of devoted followers. As revealed in Anne C Heller’s biography, Ayn Rand and the World She Made, Rand’s New York group of Objectivists took on the characteristics of a cult, following the teachings of a leader who had little patience with disagreement.
That being said, Rand’s famous 1969 speech contrasting the behaviour of the crowd at Cape Canaveral as they watched Apollo 11 take off for the Moon with the behaviour of the drug-addled, mud covered mob at Woodstock as they watched a bunch of Rock musicians perform is still well worth reading (or viewing on YouTube). She identified a growing rift in Western society and defined it in philosophical terms. Unfortunately, more than half a century later the “Woodstock” tendency seem to be winning the culture wars.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

I personally never understood the fascination with Rand. Her views have been dressed up as libertarianism, but to me it seemed more like plain selfishness. She seemed to believe that nobody had any reason to ever help or stand by anybody else, and the only government she wanted was the police and courts in order to save her the hassle of protecting her wealth. If everybody lived by those views I think society would be a truly horrible place

AC Harper
AC Harper
9 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Indeed Rand is not a sympathetic character… but perhaps that is the point. The meanings of words change over the years and ‘selfish’ seems to have picked up an extra meaning of ‘not concerned about the suffering of groups of other people’. At one time ‘selfish’ was all about the individual, the self (duh!), and now is seen more as a moral failing in a society.
Perhaps being selfish is now a revolutionary act? An act against the mob undergoing various Derangement Syndromes.

N Satori
N Satori
9 months ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Rand’s loathing of Communism drove her to attempt the creation of a philosophy which was diametrically opposed to the collectivist mindset. In her view the most able and creative in society should not be held back by a sense of obligation to the masses. What is often dismissed as a philosophy of selfishness also has distinct quality of meritocracy. Yet in our own era the collectivist mindset goes from strength to strength. Consider how affirmative action acts as a restraint on the best minds as egalitarians, ever in denial, struggle to boost the underachievers.

Last edited 9 months ago by N Satori
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Yes, a pendulum swing away from Red Horror that overcorrected and didn’t quite stabilize. I see her as a less pernicious and less consequential version of overreaching, genuinely original thinkers like Nietzsche and Freud. She gives people something to contend with and struggle against, but those who go all-in on her worldview tend to fall into ruts or go astray (then again, so do people who don’t).
True egalitarianism emerges from a Classical Liberal tradition and is about equality of opportunity–which neither precludes nor requires some additional sense of responsibility or protection for the least fortunate–not engineered equality of outcome.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

She did not so much oppose ‘a sense of obligation to the masses’, as a sense of generosity to anyone weaker than oneself. Altruism, in her view, was a viral evil. Hers wasn’t a philosophy of selfishness but of narcissism, that leads nowhere but a dead end. It didn’t prevent her happily accepting social security benefits and Medicare when she got older.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

It’s not necessarily hypocrisy. One might advocate for a different world while still being trapped in the existing one. Having paid her taxes Rand was entitled to those benefits even tho she might have preferred a world in which she got no benefits *and* paid no taxes.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

It also fits her core belief in Ultimate Selfishness. On the other hand it makes her seem like (more of a) phony. I’m half kidding but I think old Rand would have preferred a world wherein she got full benefits after paying no taxes.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

No one and nothing trapped her into Social Security payments and Medicare. Her lawyer had simply advised her that now she was getting older, unexpected health problems could bankrupt her. Of course she was entitled to those payments, under a system she had spent her entire life criticising as morally bankrupt. Crystal clear which kind of bankruptcy actually mattered to her.

M T
M T
3 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

False:
Classically Liberal: Lying about Ayn Rand and Social Security (freestudents.blogspot.com)
Quote: Pryor argued with Rand because Ayn did not want Social Security, nor did Rand go out and seek it, or Medicare, even though doing so was entirely consistent with her own ethics. What Pryor said was that she tried to convince Rand to sign up and they argued. Pryor says Rand “was never involved other than to sign the power of attorney. I did the rest.” Beyond that Pryor said nothing else. There is no indication whether Pryor used the power of attorney to apply for benefits, or whether Rand knew about it. There is no indication that such benefits were ever used. There is simply no evidence to show Rand “Grabbed Social Security and Medicare When She Needed Them.”
Pryor’s full interview in 100 Voices: Oral History of Ayn Rand, indicates the opposite. It shows Rand fighting with her attorneys and telling them that she didn’t want to do this. She signed a power of attorney and Pryor said that she acted “whether [Ayn] agreed or not.” Pryor never actually says what actions she (Pryor) took in spite of whether Ayn “agreed or not.” What we have is the rabid Left jumping to numerous conclusions not warranted by the evidence.
So, there are numerous things wrong with these claims. First, it would not be hypocrisy if Rand did take benefits from programs that she was forced to fund. Second, Rand clearly didn’t “grab” any such benefits but fought her own attorneys about doing so and they, not she, were the ones pushing it. Third, there is no indication she actually got any benefits because Pryor doesn’t say. And, fourth, Pryor makes it clear that she acted as Rand’s attorney on health issues even when Rand didn’t agree with her. And fifth, there is no indication that Rand knew all of the decisions that Pryor made on her behalf. Perhaps she did, but perhaps she didn’t.

M T
M T
3 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

False:
Classically Liberal: Lying about Ayn Rand and Social Security (freestudents.blogspot.com)
Quote: Pryor argued with Rand because Ayn did not want Social Security, nor did Rand go out and seek it, or Medicare, even though doing so was entirely consistent with her own ethics. What Pryor said was that she tried to convince Rand to sign up and they argued. Pryor says Rand “was never involved other than to sign the power of attorney. I did the rest.” Beyond that Pryor said nothing else. There is no indication whether Pryor used the power of attorney to apply for benefits, or whether Rand knew about it. There is no indication that such benefits were ever used. There is simply no evidence to show Rand “Grabbed Social Security and Medicare When She Needed Them.”
Pryor’s full interview in 100 Voices: Oral History of Ayn Rand, indicates the opposite. It shows Rand fighting with her attorneys and telling them that she didn’t want to do this. She signed a power of attorney and Pryor said that she acted “whether [Ayn] agreed or not.” Pryor never actually says what actions she (Pryor) took in spite of whether Ayn “agreed or not.” What we have is the rabid Left jumping to numerous conclusions not warranted by the evidence.
So, there are numerous things wrong with these claims. First, it would not be hypocrisy if Rand did take benefits from programs that she was forced to fund. Second, Rand clearly didn’t “grab” any such benefits but fought her own attorneys about doing so and they, not she, were the ones pushing it. Third, there is no indication she actually got any benefits because Pryor doesn’t say. And, fourth, Pryor makes it clear that she acted as Rand’s attorney on health issues even when Rand didn’t agree with her. And fifth, there is no indication that Rand knew all of the decisions that Pryor made on her behalf. Perhaps she did, but perhaps she didn’t.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

It also fits her core belief in Ultimate Selfishness. On the other hand it makes her seem like (more of a) phony. I’m half kidding but I think old Rand would have preferred a world wherein she got full benefits after paying no taxes.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

No one and nothing trapped her into Social Security payments and Medicare. Her lawyer had simply advised her that now she was getting older, unexpected health problems could bankrupt her. Of course she was entitled to those payments, under a system she had spent her entire life criticising as morally bankrupt. Crystal clear which kind of bankruptcy actually mattered to her.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

It’s not necessarily hypocrisy. One might advocate for a different world while still being trapped in the existing one. Having paid her taxes Rand was entitled to those benefits even tho she might have preferred a world in which she got no benefits *and* paid no taxes.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Yes, a pendulum swing away from Red Horror that overcorrected and didn’t quite stabilize. I see her as a less pernicious and less consequential version of overreaching, genuinely original thinkers like Nietzsche and Freud. She gives people something to contend with and struggle against, but those who go all-in on her worldview tend to fall into ruts or go astray (then again, so do people who don’t).
True egalitarianism emerges from a Classical Liberal tradition and is about equality of opportunity–which neither precludes nor requires some additional sense of responsibility or protection for the least fortunate–not engineered equality of outcome.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

She did not so much oppose ‘a sense of obligation to the masses’, as a sense of generosity to anyone weaker than oneself. Altruism, in her view, was a viral evil. Hers wasn’t a philosophy of selfishness but of narcissism, that leads nowhere but a dead end. It didn’t prevent her happily accepting social security benefits and Medicare when she got older.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Steven Somsen
Steven Somsen
9 months ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Words are difficult here. I discriminate between 3 states of awareness: 1 self-centred/egoic (it’s all about me), 2 selfish (in contact with your true needs) and 3 self-less (beyond 1 and 2). Most people who very much care about others are not selfless in the above sense: basically they are still very much self-centred and not in contact with what they truly need.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Steven Somsen

Don’t agree. I would describe 2) as self-aware not selfish: and therefore able to balance the needs of others with your own. That is absolutely not being self-centred, because it is aware that you do not exist in a social and moral vacuum.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Steven Somsen
Steven Somsen
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

That’s the trouble with de-fining. The core for me is on the ‘true’ needs: the balance you talk about is included in that.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Steven Somsen

No it isn’t, unless by ‘true’ you mean as with Ms Markle, ‘your truth’: one wholly unrelated to the world around you, which like it or not, you inhabit.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Steven Somsen

No it isn’t, unless by ‘true’ you mean as with Ms Markle, ‘your truth’: one wholly unrelated to the world around you, which like it or not, you inhabit.

Steven Somsen
Steven Somsen
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

That’s the trouble with de-fining. The core for me is on the ‘true’ needs: the balance you talk about is included in that.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Steven Somsen

Don’t agree. I would describe 2) as self-aware not selfish: and therefore able to balance the needs of others with your own. That is absolutely not being self-centred, because it is aware that you do not exist in a social and moral vacuum.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
N Satori
N Satori
9 months ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Rand’s loathing of Communism drove her to attempt the creation of a philosophy which was diametrically opposed to the collectivist mindset. In her view the most able and creative in society should not be held back by a sense of obligation to the masses. What is often dismissed as a philosophy of selfishness also has distinct quality of meritocracy. Yet in our own era the collectivist mindset goes from strength to strength. Consider how affirmative action acts as a restraint on the best minds as egalitarians, ever in denial, struggle to boost the underachievers.

Last edited 9 months ago by N Satori
Steven Somsen
Steven Somsen
9 months ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Words are difficult here. I discriminate between 3 states of awareness: 1 self-centred/egoic (it’s all about me), 2 selfish (in contact with your true needs) and 3 self-less (beyond 1 and 2). Most people who very much care about others are not selfless in the above sense: basically they are still very much self-centred and not in contact with what they truly need.

AC Harper
AC Harper
9 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Indeed Rand is not a sympathetic character… but perhaps that is the point. The meanings of words change over the years and ‘selfish’ seems to have picked up an extra meaning of ‘not concerned about the suffering of groups of other people’. At one time ‘selfish’ was all about the individual, the self (duh!), and now is seen more as a moral failing in a society.
Perhaps being selfish is now a revolutionary act? An act against the mob undergoing various Derangement Syndromes.

Martin Layfield
Martin Layfield
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

The irony about Rand is she abused amphetamines. It does explain to an extent how she wrote huge novels but also her cultish paranoia and often preposterous claims (such as smoking being rational and big business being a persecuted minority) as that’s a common consequence of such drugs.

Dominic A
Dominic A
9 months ago

Another irony, perhaps with a greater claim to being The Irony about Rand is that she died whilst ‘on welfare’ and being cared for under Medicaid.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago

I know – it’s amusing that that’s very rarely mentioned in discussion of her work. For which I have less patience than the admirable Stock. Reading Rand is like reading a Peter Cook impression. (I used to daydream that he’d do this – Any Nard composing ‘Atlas Farts’.) Not only was she a narcissistic loon, but she’s one of the most hilariously bad writers I’ve ever read. No cliché is left unturned, every character a clunking polemic. It amazes me she’s still taken seriously (the Ayn Rand Institute, anyone?) Just goes to show every idiot finds its audience.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Martin Layfield
Martin Layfield
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I don’t wholly dislike Rand’s novels. However unlike the normal Randian cultists I think they got worse over time. Atlas Shrugged is a real slog to read. The fountainhead is a slog too but I did enjoy it. But her first and more forgotten novel We the Living had the best impression on me.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I mostly agree except I would say her deficits were more in discernment and proportion than intellect. Not an idiot, perhaps something of fool. Minor quibble. Great posts.
Shame that she is so influential but those that are insistently misguided or too easily led can probably find even worse authors to read, whom I won’t mention lest my little reply go into 12-hour quarantine.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

One could almost judge the quality of the article by the quality of the posts it generates. This one is no exception.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

The 12 hour-quarantine made me laugh out loud – brightened my day!

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

That’s a very interesting distinction – perhaps rather like that between cleverness and wisdom? I’d agree that tho a loon, she wasn’t dim. Which is what’s so odd about her.
Looking at how she built her intellectual constructions, it’s impossible not to be reminded of postwar French intellectuals taking a shred of Marxist thinking and then building fortresses of intellectual cobblers.
I come back to your original distinction – when I was young (shortly before the fall of the Roman Empire) and studying Classics, I became fascinated by Epicurus. One of his fundamental principles was that ‘Intuition is the seat of judgment: all the rest is mere opinion’.
I’m pondering now the possible link between intuition and wisdom. Thank you for your thought-provoking post!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

Thanks to you as as well. Totally agree she was a loon.
“Great wits are sure to madness near allied / And thin partitions do their bounds divide” (Dryden)
I don’t think Rand was quite a Great Wit, especially in the 17th-century sense, but many volatile or even decidedly unhinged minds radiate a certain brilliance (or so I’ve heard).
On a somewhat pertinent note, I think there’s a sort of ascending scale that may be termed: data, information, knowledge, wisdom. Not every piece of data rises even to the level of information, nor information knowledge, and certainly, no amount of knowledge arrives at wisdom in any inevitable way. That’s what an intuitive voice tells me from time to time as I cram my head with information, perhaps even knowledge, into my sixth decade now, while wisdom remains elusive or flickering.
“Fortresses of intellectual cobblers”. Excellent!
Incidentally, I’ve started re-reading the Gospels too, which might be why I’m preachier than usual in certain exchanges.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

Thanks to you as as well. Totally agree she was a loon.
“Great wits are sure to madness near allied / And thin partitions do their bounds divide” (Dryden)
I don’t think Rand was quite a Great Wit, especially in the 17th-century sense, but many volatile or even decidedly unhinged minds radiate a certain brilliance (or so I’ve heard).
On a somewhat pertinent note, I think there’s a sort of ascending scale that may be termed: data, information, knowledge, wisdom. Not every piece of data rises even to the level of information, nor information knowledge, and certainly, no amount of knowledge arrives at wisdom in any inevitable way. That’s what an intuitive voice tells me from time to time as I cram my head with information, perhaps even knowledge, into my sixth decade now, while wisdom remains elusive or flickering.
“Fortresses of intellectual cobblers”. Excellent!
Incidentally, I’ve started re-reading the Gospels too, which might be why I’m preachier than usual in certain exchanges.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

One could almost judge the quality of the article by the quality of the posts it generates. This one is no exception.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

The 12 hour-quarantine made me laugh out loud – brightened my day!

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

That’s a very interesting distinction – perhaps rather like that between cleverness and wisdom? I’d agree that tho a loon, she wasn’t dim. Which is what’s so odd about her.
Looking at how she built her intellectual constructions, it’s impossible not to be reminded of postwar French intellectuals taking a shred of Marxist thinking and then building fortresses of intellectual cobblers.
I come back to your original distinction – when I was young (shortly before the fall of the Roman Empire) and studying Classics, I became fascinated by Epicurus. One of his fundamental principles was that ‘Intuition is the seat of judgment: all the rest is mere opinion’.
I’m pondering now the possible link between intuition and wisdom. Thank you for your thought-provoking post!

Andrew F
Andrew F
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I am not claiming any great knowledge of Rand writings.
But surely she caused much less destruction in the world then Communist loons.
Who still dominate our universities and public sphere under the cover of woke idiocy.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

So very useful to mention this when any writer associated with the Right–even those you admit to scant knowledge of–are taken to task in any way. Well done.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Perish the thought that any writer associated with the Right should be criticised without immediately referencing the evils of Communism.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Perish the thought that any writer associated with the Right should be criticised without immediately referencing the evils of Communism.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

So very useful to mention this when any writer associated with the Right–even those you admit to scant knowledge of–are taken to task in any way. Well done.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Martin Layfield
Martin Layfield
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I don’t wholly dislike Rand’s novels. However unlike the normal Randian cultists I think they got worse over time. Atlas Shrugged is a real slog to read. The fountainhead is a slog too but I did enjoy it. But her first and more forgotten novel We the Living had the best impression on me.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I mostly agree except I would say her deficits were more in discernment and proportion than intellect. Not an idiot, perhaps something of fool. Minor quibble. Great posts.
Shame that she is so influential but those that are insistently misguided or too easily led can probably find even worse authors to read, whom I won’t mention lest my little reply go into 12-hour quarantine.

Andrew F
Andrew F
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I am not claiming any great knowledge of Rand writings.
But surely she caused much less destruction in the world then Communist loons.
Who still dominate our universities and public sphere under the cover of woke idiocy.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

Even the speed-addled dystopian-world-builder Philip K. d**k seems to have accomplished work of greater real substance while “tweaking”. At least he doesn’t claim an one-to-one correspondence between his bent realities and the real world, i.e.: admits it is science fiction.
*Absurd auto-censorship of the author’s true name!

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Dominic A
Dominic A
9 months ago

Another irony, perhaps with a greater claim to being The Irony about Rand is that she died whilst ‘on welfare’ and being cared for under Medicaid.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago

I know – it’s amusing that that’s very rarely mentioned in discussion of her work. For which I have less patience than the admirable Stock. Reading Rand is like reading a Peter Cook impression. (I used to daydream that he’d do this – Any Nard composing ‘Atlas Farts’.) Not only was she a narcissistic loon, but she’s one of the most hilariously bad writers I’ve ever read. No cliché is left unturned, every character a clunking polemic. It amazes me she’s still taken seriously (the Ayn Rand Institute, anyone?) Just goes to show every idiot finds its audience.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

Even the speed-addled dystopian-world-builder Philip K. d**k seems to have accomplished work of greater real substance while “tweaking”. At least he doesn’t claim an one-to-one correspondence between his bent realities and the real world, i.e.: admits it is science fiction.
*Absurd auto-censorship of the author’s true name!

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

“as they watched Apollo 11 take off for the Moon with the behaviour of the drug-addled, mud covered mob at Woodstock”
Iteresting! Do I take it that she preferred Apollo? How could she when that was a collectivist project? Surely the drug addled hippies were more to her taste, they doing exactly what they wanted irrespective of any outside influence?

M T
M T
3 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Thank you for the confession you haven’t read very much if anything by her. To your jab about collectivism it suffices, I think, to quote her from that same essay: “The fact that man is the only species capable of transmitting knowledge and thus capable of progress, the fact that man can achieve a division of labor, and the fact that large numbers of men are required for a large-scale undertaking, do not mean what some creeps are suggesting: that achievement has become collective.”
She argued that the fundamental choice in society was whether people interacted through mutual agreement or force. Mutual agreement involves mutual benefit; force does not. Moreover, despite the slanders of Coralie Palmer to the contrary, she stated quite clearly that other people are often of value to you, in the case of love of the greatest value, and on the more prosaic level as fellow rational beings who arouse feelings of benevolence in a rational person–thus, for example, she condemned in one essay anyone who refused to help a friend in order to buy some “toy.” (In the 1920s, as she worked out her own thought, she moved away from her young agreement with Nietzsche, whom she eventually repudiated. Her view here was more akin here to that of Spinoza, whom she had unharsh words for in places, unlike most philosophers, but I don’t think derived from his ideas at all.) Mind you, I’m not a follower of Rand, but unlike Coralie Palmer and her ilk, I don’t regurgitate ignorant slander borrowed from lefties and Buckleyites as convenient ad hominem to evade actually grappling with her ideas, or even describing them accurately.

M T
M T
3 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Thank you for the confession you haven’t read very much if anything by her. To your jab about collectivism it suffices, I think, to quote her from that same essay: “The fact that man is the only species capable of transmitting knowledge and thus capable of progress, the fact that man can achieve a division of labor, and the fact that large numbers of men are required for a large-scale undertaking, do not mean what some creeps are suggesting: that achievement has become collective.”
She argued that the fundamental choice in society was whether people interacted through mutual agreement or force. Mutual agreement involves mutual benefit; force does not. Moreover, despite the slanders of Coralie Palmer to the contrary, she stated quite clearly that other people are often of value to you, in the case of love of the greatest value, and on the more prosaic level as fellow rational beings who arouse feelings of benevolence in a rational person–thus, for example, she condemned in one essay anyone who refused to help a friend in order to buy some “toy.” (In the 1920s, as she worked out her own thought, she moved away from her young agreement with Nietzsche, whom she eventually repudiated. Her view here was more akin here to that of Spinoza, whom she had unharsh words for in places, unlike most philosophers, but I don’t think derived from his ideas at all.) Mind you, I’m not a follower of Rand, but unlike Coralie Palmer and her ilk, I don’t regurgitate ignorant slander borrowed from lefties and Buckleyites as convenient ad hominem to evade actually grappling with her ideas, or even describing them accurately.

Martin Layfield
Martin Layfield
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Does Rand acknowledge in her speech that the Apollo 11 was a government enterprise while Woodstock a private sector affair? Could Rand’s doctrinaire economic liberalism compute this? I also remember Rand had an almost childlike enthusiasm for the US military, despite the fact that ardent individualism and the army rarely go together well. You see such idiocies with the neo-Randians today. On one hand they bemoan how ‘fascist’ the state is but then if the said ‘fascist’ state in Washington turns it guns on a foreign state like Iraq, Syria, Russia etc the latter are described as non-persons who deserve to be annihilated because they hate freedom or whatever platitude they want to use.

M T
M T
3 months ago

It’s amazing how daft you sound trying to interpret her as an idiot:
“Is it proper for the government to engage in space projects? No, it is not–except insofar as space projects involve military aspects, in which case, and to that extent, it is not merely proper but mandatory. Scientific research as such, however, is not the proper province of the government.
“But this is a political issue; it pertains to the money behind the lunar mission or to the method of obtaining that money, and to the project’s administration; it does not affect the nature of the project as such, it does not alter the fact that this was a superlative technological achievement.”
Apollo 11 (aynrand.org)
That presents the full essay, which is well worth reading, including several paragraphs more about the political context of the flight.

M T
M T
3 months ago

It’s amazing how daft you sound trying to interpret her as an idiot:
“Is it proper for the government to engage in space projects? No, it is not–except insofar as space projects involve military aspects, in which case, and to that extent, it is not merely proper but mandatory. Scientific research as such, however, is not the proper province of the government.
“But this is a political issue; it pertains to the money behind the lunar mission or to the method of obtaining that money, and to the project’s administration; it does not affect the nature of the project as such, it does not alter the fact that this was a superlative technological achievement.”
Apollo 11 (aynrand.org)
That presents the full essay, which is well worth reading, including several paragraphs more about the political context of the flight.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

I personally never understood the fascination with Rand. Her views have been dressed up as libertarianism, but to me it seemed more like plain selfishness. She seemed to believe that nobody had any reason to ever help or stand by anybody else, and the only government she wanted was the police and courts in order to save her the hassle of protecting her wealth. If everybody lived by those views I think society would be a truly horrible place

Martin Layfield
Martin Layfield
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

The irony about Rand is she abused amphetamines. It does explain to an extent how she wrote huge novels but also her cultish paranoia and often preposterous claims (such as smoking being rational and big business being a persecuted minority) as that’s a common consequence of such drugs.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

“as they watched Apollo 11 take off for the Moon with the behaviour of the drug-addled, mud covered mob at Woodstock”
Iteresting! Do I take it that she preferred Apollo? How could she when that was a collectivist project? Surely the drug addled hippies were more to her taste, they doing exactly what they wanted irrespective of any outside influence?

Martin Layfield
Martin Layfield
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Does Rand acknowledge in her speech that the Apollo 11 was a government enterprise while Woodstock a private sector affair? Could Rand’s doctrinaire economic liberalism compute this? I also remember Rand had an almost childlike enthusiasm for the US military, despite the fact that ardent individualism and the army rarely go together well. You see such idiocies with the neo-Randians today. On one hand they bemoan how ‘fascist’ the state is but then if the said ‘fascist’ state in Washington turns it guns on a foreign state like Iraq, Syria, Russia etc the latter are described as non-persons who deserve to be annihilated because they hate freedom or whatever platitude they want to use.

N Satori
N Satori
9 months ago

Interesting to see how the actual lives of great thinkers play out. Nietzche for example, ever linked to the concept of a superman, was something of a hypochondriac.
Ayn Rand, the arch anti-collectivist surrounded herself with a group of devoted followers. As revealed in Anne C Heller’s biography, Ayn Rand and the World She Made, Rand’s New York group of Objectivists took on the characteristics of a cult, following the teachings of a leader who had little patience with disagreement.
That being said, Rand’s famous 1969 speech contrasting the behaviour of the crowd at Cape Canaveral as they watched Apollo 11 take off for the Moon with the behaviour of the drug-addled, mud covered mob at Woodstock as they watched a bunch of Rock musicians perform is still well worth reading (or viewing on YouTube). She identified a growing rift in Western society and defined it in philosophical terms. Unfortunately, more than half a century later the “Woodstock” tendency seem to be winning the culture wars.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
9 months ago

Another great article by Kathleen Stock, thank you – a great read for my Friday morning. It distracted me nicely from the crazy lady who has parked herself outside my house and settled into a nice, relaxing screaming routine. My comments:
On Hannah Arendt: for me, her most interesting thoughts are about the nature of collective guilt – something which a lot of time is spent discussing in Austria for obvious reasons. Her opinion was (or I think it was hers – I am happy to be corrected by more knowledgeable individuals who may be floating around the BTL this morning) that collective guilt was a terrible idea, because it allowed the real perpetrators to duck away and hide their guilt in the crowd.
De Beauvoir: I am going to assert that her breakdown was as much to do with trying to break out of conservative gender roles as anything else. The article refers to these women considering themselves taking on masculine roles and breaking out of traditional female stereotypes which I think is true. The books I have read about de Beauvoir all go into quite a lot of detail about the mental struggles she went through trying to step out of the thought patterns and expectations for women she had grown up with and form a new framework for a female identity.
Simone Weil: oh dear – I spent half of this article confusing Simone Weil with Simone VEIL. What a muppet. Nevermind, I will still recommend reading Simone Veil’s autobiography. Because it’s brilliant.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Enjoyed your comment and think your points about Arendt and De Beauvoir are excellent. And thanks for the book tip – just off now to look it up.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Enjoyed your comment and think your points about Arendt and De Beauvoir are excellent. And thanks for the book tip – just off now to look it up.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
9 months ago

Another great article by Kathleen Stock, thank you – a great read for my Friday morning. It distracted me nicely from the crazy lady who has parked herself outside my house and settled into a nice, relaxing screaming routine. My comments:
On Hannah Arendt: for me, her most interesting thoughts are about the nature of collective guilt – something which a lot of time is spent discussing in Austria for obvious reasons. Her opinion was (or I think it was hers – I am happy to be corrected by more knowledgeable individuals who may be floating around the BTL this morning) that collective guilt was a terrible idea, because it allowed the real perpetrators to duck away and hide their guilt in the crowd.
De Beauvoir: I am going to assert that her breakdown was as much to do with trying to break out of conservative gender roles as anything else. The article refers to these women considering themselves taking on masculine roles and breaking out of traditional female stereotypes which I think is true. The books I have read about de Beauvoir all go into quite a lot of detail about the mental struggles she went through trying to step out of the thought patterns and expectations for women she had grown up with and form a new framework for a female identity.
Simone Weil: oh dear – I spent half of this article confusing Simone Weil with Simone VEIL. What a muppet. Nevermind, I will still recommend reading Simone Veil’s autobiography. Because it’s brilliant.

Mike Downing
Mike Downing
9 months ago

As Mary Harrington wrote yesterday, YHA’s are in freefall, but they require you to physically experience others at close quarters and rub along. Who is prepared to do that nowadays?

When I asked youngsters why they voted Remain, the reply was all to do with possible inconvenience when travelling and nothing else seemed to be of importance to them.

To paraphrase Satre, you get the life you deserve.

Benjamin Jones
Benjamin Jones
9 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

Or the right to go to university in another country which 99.9% never do because 99% of them can’t speak another European language with enough confidence. (I may be being a bit harsh, but not much) . FoM was basically a one way street unless you count holidays.

Andrew F
Andrew F
9 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

Yes. I recall student “leader” during Brexit debate saying that membership of EU makes it easier to go clubbing in Berlin.
I have not met single Remainer in London who can explain (with data and not fluffy feelings) why staying in EU was a good idea.

Benjamin Jones
Benjamin Jones
9 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

Or the right to go to university in another country which 99.9% never do because 99% of them can’t speak another European language with enough confidence. (I may be being a bit harsh, but not much) . FoM was basically a one way street unless you count holidays.

Andrew F
Andrew F
9 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

Yes. I recall student “leader” during Brexit debate saying that membership of EU makes it easier to go clubbing in Berlin.
I have not met single Remainer in London who can explain (with data and not fluffy feelings) why staying in EU was a good idea.

Mike Downing
Mike Downing
9 months ago

As Mary Harrington wrote yesterday, YHA’s are in freefall, but they require you to physically experience others at close quarters and rub along. Who is prepared to do that nowadays?

When I asked youngsters why they voted Remain, the reply was all to do with possible inconvenience when travelling and nothing else seemed to be of importance to them.

To paraphrase Satre, you get the life you deserve.

m_dunec
m_dunec
9 months ago

Masterful, eloquent, bold and daring – must be Kathleen Stock! Thank you; another great read, indeed.

Last edited 9 months ago by m_dunec
m_dunec
m_dunec
9 months ago

Masterful, eloquent, bold and daring – must be Kathleen Stock! Thank you; another great read, indeed.

Last edited 9 months ago by m_dunec
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
9 months ago

Super essay.
UnHerd reminds me a bit of Monty Python: along with the bits of dross and the bits of ‘meh’, not gonna lie, every 10 or 12 pieces you get a good one, and once in every 30 pieces or so, a zinger.

Back to the topic at hand, of the four protagonists, the only one whose thought processes I can understand clearly is Ayn Rand, the others appear to me, to put up a screen between themselves and the world, so they see the world as they want to in some way, as opposed to as is. The incapacity to comprehend those other viewpoints is undoubtedly a lack in me (rather than everyone else), like colour-blindness, or tone-deafness.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
9 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

So true about Python! It’s the willingness to take risks, and to fail, which leads to producing those golden timeless nuggets.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

If you think Any Nard didn’t also didn’t see the world as she wanted to in some way, you’ve mistaken her so-called ‘objectivism’ for objectivity. She was happy to make a nonsense of her so-called philosophy by accepting social security payments and Medicare when she got older.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

Why on earth did she need social security for, couldn’t she have sold off her mink coat instead? I would have expected her to be relatively prosperous in her later years.

So she eventually failed (in some sense) on her goal of complete independence from other people. I don’t blame her for trying and it’s a psychology I can understand. I’m guessing she had a streak of autism, something relatively unusual to see in women and girls. Creativity is always the get-out in those situations.

https://youtu.be/Kavu_vuD2QM

Last edited 9 months ago by Prashant Kotak
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Thanks for the link to a good song I hadn’t heard by a singer my mom liked (and probably still does).
I think you are onto something with your guess. Rand was someone who rejected empathy and promoted a philosophy of deliberate selfishness as the highest good. In effect, you are advocating empathy for a person who was not very empathetic. That is not without validity, but presents an interesting ethical and intellectual challenge right out of the Gospels (though not exclusively).

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Another comment from you with lots of food for thought. Off to to check out the gospels (been about a decade)

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Another comment from you with lots of food for thought. Off to to check out the gospels (been about a decade)

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Her lawyer advised her that as she was ageing, a serious long-term illness could bankrupt her. Which lead to an instant rethink on her hitherto granite belief that State care of any kind was a moral evil.

Edward Seymour
Edward Seymour
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

Rand regarded acceptance of social security as restitution for the State’s imposition of taxes. I regard acceptance of my winter fuel allowance and the recent energy handouts the same way.

M T
M T
3 months ago
Reply to  Edward Seymour

More than that, as I quoted above from an essay by someone who actually read the sources underlying the hatchet job lies by leftist drudges that Coralie Palmer has seen fit to repeat several times, she fought her lawyer on precisely that, but her lawyer had power of attorney and registered her with social security against her wishes–there’s no evidence she actually received any payments.

M T
M T
3 months ago
Reply to  Edward Seymour

More than that, as I quoted above from an essay by someone who actually read the sources underlying the hatchet job lies by leftist drudges that Coralie Palmer has seen fit to repeat several times, she fought her lawyer on precisely that, but her lawyer had power of attorney and registered her with social security against her wishes–there’s no evidence she actually received any payments.

Edward Seymour
Edward Seymour
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

Rand regarded acceptance of social security as restitution for the State’s imposition of taxes. I regard acceptance of my winter fuel allowance and the recent energy handouts the same way.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Thanks for the link to a good song I hadn’t heard by a singer my mom liked (and probably still does).
I think you are onto something with your guess. Rand was someone who rejected empathy and promoted a philosophy of deliberate selfishness as the highest good. In effect, you are advocating empathy for a person who was not very empathetic. That is not without validity, but presents an interesting ethical and intellectual challenge right out of the Gospels (though not exclusively).

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Her lawyer advised her that as she was ageing, a serious long-term illness could bankrupt her. Which lead to an instant rethink on her hitherto granite belief that State care of any kind was a moral evil.

Edward Seymour
Edward Seymour
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

Ayn Rand was very open about using social security payments: she regarded it as restitution for taxation. Rather as I accept my un-needed winter fuel supplement.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

Why on earth did she need social security for, couldn’t she have sold off her mink coat instead? I would have expected her to be relatively prosperous in her later years.

So she eventually failed (in some sense) on her goal of complete independence from other people. I don’t blame her for trying and it’s a psychology I can understand. I’m guessing she had a streak of autism, something relatively unusual to see in women and girls. Creativity is always the get-out in those situations.

https://youtu.be/Kavu_vuD2QM

Last edited 9 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Edward Seymour
Edward Seymour
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

Ayn Rand was very open about using social security payments: she regarded it as restitution for taxation. Rather as I accept my un-needed winter fuel supplement.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
9 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

So true about Python! It’s the willingness to take risks, and to fail, which leads to producing those golden timeless nuggets.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

If you think Any Nard didn’t also didn’t see the world as she wanted to in some way, you’ve mistaken her so-called ‘objectivism’ for objectivity. She was happy to make a nonsense of her so-called philosophy by accepting social security payments and Medicare when she got older.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
9 months ago

Super essay.
UnHerd reminds me a bit of Monty Python: along with the bits of dross and the bits of ‘meh’, not gonna lie, every 10 or 12 pieces you get a good one, and once in every 30 pieces or so, a zinger.

Back to the topic at hand, of the four protagonists, the only one whose thought processes I can understand clearly is Ayn Rand, the others appear to me, to put up a screen between themselves and the world, so they see the world as they want to in some way, as opposed to as is. The incapacity to comprehend those other viewpoints is undoubtedly a lack in me (rather than everyone else), like colour-blindness, or tone-deafness.

Jonathan N
Jonathan N
9 months ago

I don’t think its right to describe Walter Benjamin as “suicidal”, although he did in the end commit suicide when faced with the certainty of capture and deportation to the camps.

As for Weil, I don’t think intellectual and moral independence requires one to be as cussed as she sounds to have been.

Jonathan N
Jonathan N
9 months ago

I don’t think its right to describe Walter Benjamin as “suicidal”, although he did in the end commit suicide when faced with the certainty of capture and deportation to the camps.

As for Weil, I don’t think intellectual and moral independence requires one to be as cussed as she sounds to have been.

John Riordan
John Riordan
9 months ago

The final paragraph, with the reference to Hannah Arendt’s prescience, is a bit of a jolt. It does seem prescient for the mess we’re in now: everything about the culture war we’re in seems to be aimed at the destruction of the age of reason – including the ridiculous assertion that we’re not even in a war at all, that woke is nothing more than a label for an overdue expansion of moral consciousness, and that any conflict is entirely the fault of right-wing reactionaries refusing to see reason.

What has become clear to me lately is that civilised political debate has been overtaken by the politics of the cult, in which as Richard Dawkins observed in one of his many diatribes against irrationality, the more ludicrous the belief system a group adopts, the less susceptible that belief system is to rational deconstruction and therefore reasoned debate is pointless, the only way forward is compromise. And then, once again, compromise with extremes can’t be achieved while protecting one’s own rational position, the only “reason” involved is crunching numbers, damage limitation and then trying to convince yourself that there’s any point to what you’re doing.

It is not an accident that the radical trans agenda almost immediately moved from asserting that gender was a mere social construct to asserting that both sex and gender are not binary and immutable. It is not an accident that racism has given way to antiracism in which ideas like implicit white racism cannot even be questioned without becoming evidence of guilt. It is not an accident that climate activists not only say that climate armageddon is an existential danger, they also reject the IPCC’s own findings on the problem to an even greater extent than climate change sceptics do.

The reason for this obviously is that the aims of the activists in question can’t be achieved through persuasion and reason, so this is the effective alternative strategy they’ve discovered. It’s a disgrace, but that’s irrelevant, of course.

John Riordan
John Riordan
9 months ago

The final paragraph, with the reference to Hannah Arendt’s prescience, is a bit of a jolt. It does seem prescient for the mess we’re in now: everything about the culture war we’re in seems to be aimed at the destruction of the age of reason – including the ridiculous assertion that we’re not even in a war at all, that woke is nothing more than a label for an overdue expansion of moral consciousness, and that any conflict is entirely the fault of right-wing reactionaries refusing to see reason.

What has become clear to me lately is that civilised political debate has been overtaken by the politics of the cult, in which as Richard Dawkins observed in one of his many diatribes against irrationality, the more ludicrous the belief system a group adopts, the less susceptible that belief system is to rational deconstruction and therefore reasoned debate is pointless, the only way forward is compromise. And then, once again, compromise with extremes can’t be achieved while protecting one’s own rational position, the only “reason” involved is crunching numbers, damage limitation and then trying to convince yourself that there’s any point to what you’re doing.

It is not an accident that the radical trans agenda almost immediately moved from asserting that gender was a mere social construct to asserting that both sex and gender are not binary and immutable. It is not an accident that racism has given way to antiracism in which ideas like implicit white racism cannot even be questioned without becoming evidence of guilt. It is not an accident that climate activists not only say that climate armageddon is an existential danger, they also reject the IPCC’s own findings on the problem to an even greater extent than climate change sceptics do.

The reason for this obviously is that the aims of the activists in question can’t be achieved through persuasion and reason, so this is the effective alternative strategy they’ve discovered. It’s a disgrace, but that’s irrelevant, of course.

Terry Davies
Terry Davies
9 months ago

Wow, that was some read!

Terry Davies
Terry Davies
9 months ago

Wow, that was some read!

AC Harper
AC Harper
9 months ago

A thought provoking article… in his own way Epicurus tried to avoid entanglement in the ‘Great Beast’ – advising people to ‘Live Unknown!’, to avoid seeking fame, and that the Gods were not bothered about the lives of people.
So not a new problem, although a retreat to a Garden away from politics and patronage is not so easy to achieve nowadays.

AC Harper
AC Harper
9 months ago

A thought provoking article… in his own way Epicurus tried to avoid entanglement in the ‘Great Beast’ – advising people to ‘Live Unknown!’, to avoid seeking fame, and that the Gods were not bothered about the lives of people.
So not a new problem, although a retreat to a Garden away from politics and patronage is not so easy to achieve nowadays.

N Satori
N Satori
9 months ago

For a less reverential (and less feminist) take on Wolfram Eilenberger’s book try Christopher Bray’s review in Spectator Australia.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Really? I read that too and found it shallow. But then that’s also increasingly the quality of pieces in the Speccie UK to my continuing disappointment.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
9 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Really? I read that too and found it shallow. But then that’s also increasingly the quality of pieces in the Speccie UK to my continuing disappointment.

Last edited 9 months ago by Coralie Palmer
N Satori
N Satori
9 months ago

For a less reverential (and less feminist) take on Wolfram Eilenberger’s book try Christopher Bray’s review in Spectator Australia.

Annette Lawson
Annette Lawson
9 months ago

What a wonderful article Kathleen Stock! Thank you.

Annette Lawson
Annette Lawson
9 months ago

What a wonderful article Kathleen Stock! Thank you.

Susan Grabston
Susan Grabston
9 months ago

Nascent, but seeing signs of people in various concentric circles around my life turning away from the online world. Hunger for the “real” to meet both physical (food, energy) and emotional (connection) needs. Former fear driven; latter spiritual from what I can see.

Susan Grabston
Susan Grabston
9 months ago

Nascent, but seeing signs of people in various concentric circles around my life turning away from the online world. Hunger for the “real” to meet both physical (food, energy) and emotional (connection) needs. Former fear driven; latter spiritual from what I can see.

Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
9 months ago

I say that “women expect to be protected.” So when they are not, as Kathleen Stock at Sussex, or the four female thinkers during Nazi / Commie times, or the German women east of the Elbe in 1945, everyone of whom was said to be raped, there’s a problem.
But then I’d say the fabulous four were pretty clueless. In The Second Sex de Beauvoir writes about the “Independent Woman.” Well, no, Simone honey. Women expect to be protected, and they need to be protected.
And if there are “two principles fighting within human consciousness,” whatabout the “unconscious.” I thought that was the Big Idea of late 19th and early 20th century. But I could be wrong.
You see, I see the last 150 years as the Age of the Educated Class, and in my opinion, men and women, they Made Things Worse.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

You insistently bend every single topic back to the Evils of the Educated Class. It’s quite predictable and actually pretty hilarious at this point. Who were the American Founders, most of whom read Latin and attended early-American universities or at least had voluminous libraries (in a time when that was rare)?
Are you arguing for some inverted version of essentialist class warfare, to install a glorious Reign of the Ignorant?
*Or maybe not even inverted, just altered, as your proletariat seems to be monied conservatives who haven’t ruined themselves by reading too much, and your bourgeoisie is still purportedly in charge of social institutions, but has less capital and guns than your version of the proles.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Good point. But our Founders were revolutionaries who created a Narrative that ended up with them in power.
Washington, of course, walked away from power twice. What a guy. If only FDR…
Hamilton: imagine a revolutionary that actually understood central banking. The mind reels.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

We finally agree. Without the Narrative, promoted in the Declaration of Independence Federalist Papers and elsewhere, these here troubled Yoo-nited States would not exist. Which would not be a net benefit to mankind, in my opinion.
The power they secured for themselves and free residents of the former Colonies was left open to challenge and at least eventual “power sharing” in a pretty amazing way though.
*I don’t agree with your FDR trailing shot which I didn’t see before…The country needed most of those admittedly radical interventions given the severity of the economic collapse. Most American like their Social Security, given the alternative. The WPA was a boon and maybe homeless people who are sturdy and sane enough could clean up some of our cities today with similar Public Works jobs, while staying busy with something useful and transitioning off the streets or out of shelters.
You don’t think FDR steered the US well during WWII? You think Alf Landon would have done better? Look at the standing of America post-war.
Still, we seem to agree otherwise and this could be the last such moment we have.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

We finally agree. Without the Narrative, promoted in the Declaration of Independence Federalist Papers and elsewhere, these here troubled Yoo-nited States would not exist. Which would not be a net benefit to mankind, in my opinion.
The power they secured for themselves and free residents of the former Colonies was left open to challenge and at least eventual “power sharing” in a pretty amazing way though.
*I don’t agree with your FDR trailing shot which I didn’t see before…The country needed most of those admittedly radical interventions given the severity of the economic collapse. Most American like their Social Security, given the alternative. The WPA was a boon and maybe homeless people who are sturdy and sane enough could clean up some of our cities today with similar Public Works jobs, while staying busy with something useful and transitioning off the streets or out of shelters.
You don’t think FDR steered the US well during WWII? You think Alf Landon would have done better? Look at the standing of America post-war.
Still, we seem to agree otherwise and this could be the last such moment we have.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
9 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Good point. But our Founders were revolutionaries who created a Narrative that ended up with them in power.
Washington, of course, walked away from power twice. What a guy. If only FDR…
Hamilton: imagine a revolutionary that actually understood central banking. The mind reels.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

You insistently bend every single topic back to the Evils of the Educated Class. It’s quite predictable and actually pretty hilarious at this point. Who were the American Founders, most of whom read Latin and attended early-American universities or at least had voluminous libraries (in a time when that was rare)?
Are you arguing for some inverted version of essentialist class warfare, to install a glorious Reign of the Ignorant?
*Or maybe not even inverted, just altered, as your proletariat seems to be monied conservatives who haven’t ruined themselves by reading too much, and your bourgeoisie is still purportedly in charge of social institutions, but has less capital and guns than your version of the proles.

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
9 months ago

I say that “women expect to be protected.” So when they are not, as Kathleen Stock at Sussex, or the four female thinkers during Nazi / Commie times, or the German women east of the Elbe in 1945, everyone of whom was said to be raped, there’s a problem.
But then I’d say the fabulous four were pretty clueless. In The Second Sex de Beauvoir writes about the “Independent Woman.” Well, no, Simone honey. Women expect to be protected, and they need to be protected.
And if there are “two principles fighting within human consciousness,” whatabout the “unconscious.” I thought that was the Big Idea of late 19th and early 20th century. But I could be wrong.
You see, I see the last 150 years as the Age of the Educated Class, and in my opinion, men and women, they Made Things Worse.

Victoria Cooper
Victoria Cooper
9 months ago

Crudely divided, it is I during peacetime and we during war time. Trouble ensues when authorities want to conserve we during peacetime. In which case the I s must become a counter balancing we in order to arrest the we in authority. Simples.

Victoria Cooper
Victoria Cooper
9 months ago

Crudely divided, it is I during peacetime and we during war time. Trouble ensues when authorities want to conserve we during peacetime. In which case the I s must become a counter balancing we in order to arrest the we in authority. Simples.

George Locke
George Locke
9 months ago

Great article by Stock, as always! Whenever I see an article by her on this site I know it’s going to be a great read.

George Locke
George Locke
9 months ago

Great article by Stock, as always! Whenever I see an article by her on this site I know it’s going to be a great read.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
9 months ago

I enjoyed that. Far more thoughtful and interesting than the Graun’s attempt at discussing exactly the same subject a few days ago and which predictably had to run around with its hair on fire when the writer got to Ayn Rand. Not that I’m a fan.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
9 months ago

I enjoyed that. Far more thoughtful and interesting than the Graun’s attempt at discussing exactly the same subject a few days ago and which predictably had to run around with its hair on fire when the writer got to Ayn Rand. Not that I’m a fan.

SIMON WOLF
SIMON WOLF
9 months ago

Amazon Prime has 2 related films.A biopic of Ayn Rand’s later life ‘The Passion of Ayn Rand’ and a biopic of Hannah Arendt in 1961 and the reactions to her writings on the Eichmann trial.Both worth watching.
On a lighter level Phipps Kerr’s widow Jane Thynne has written several novels with a central female character involved with the 1933-1943 West European period and 2 what if novels under a seperate name .C.J Carey with a post war 1950’s UK under Nazi rule.All easy to read with good plots

SIMON WOLF
SIMON WOLF
9 months ago

Amazon Prime has 2 related films.A biopic of Ayn Rand’s later life ‘The Passion of Ayn Rand’ and a biopic of Hannah Arendt in 1961 and the reactions to her writings on the Eichmann trial.Both worth watching.
On a lighter level Phipps Kerr’s widow Jane Thynne has written several novels with a central female character involved with the 1933-1943 West European period and 2 what if novels under a seperate name .C.J Carey with a post war 1950’s UK under Nazi rule.All easy to read with good plots

Matt Sylvestre
Matt Sylvestre
9 months ago

If you ever wanted evidence of why Stock is such a highly regarded intellectual… Here it is… Brilliant!

Matt Sylvestre
Matt Sylvestre
9 months ago

If you ever wanted evidence of why Stock is such a highly regarded intellectual… Here it is… Brilliant!

michael harris
michael harris
9 months ago

Hannah Arendt’s question. Is it possible for a Jew to assimilate without assimilating antisemitism?
Her own experience. Philosophical and actual seduction by Heidegger. Counting Eichmann as banal though it turned out he was a very enthusiastic evildoer.
The experience of my father’s family. Coming into England from Poland in the 1870s (I think). Prospering in the second generation, able to send their son (my father) to an English boarding school in the 1910s. He enlisting, though well over age, to fight in the RNVR (North Atlantic convoys), marrying a Christian, dead 10 years after the war without ever mentioning to me that he was Jewish or what that meant. Assimilation indeed!
My mother, surviving, had me baptised. And then, arriving myself at a boarding school, I was promptly asked ‘Are you Jewish?’
My answer and the answer to Hannah Arendt’s question are closely linked.
Can anyone else here speak to this matter?

michael harris
michael harris
9 months ago

Hannah Arendt’s question. Is it possible for a Jew to assimilate without assimilating antisemitism?
Her own experience. Philosophical and actual seduction by Heidegger. Counting Eichmann as banal though it turned out he was a very enthusiastic evildoer.
The experience of my father’s family. Coming into England from Poland in the 1870s (I think). Prospering in the second generation, able to send their son (my father) to an English boarding school in the 1910s. He enlisting, though well over age, to fight in the RNVR (North Atlantic convoys), marrying a Christian, dead 10 years after the war without ever mentioning to me that he was Jewish or what that meant. Assimilation indeed!
My mother, surviving, had me baptised. And then, arriving myself at a boarding school, I was promptly asked ‘Are you Jewish?’
My answer and the answer to Hannah Arendt’s question are closely linked.
Can anyone else here speak to this matter?

Drew Gibson
Drew Gibson
9 months ago

‘She dreamed of becoming completely impervious to other people’s opinions — to “refuse, completely and uncompromisingly, any surrender to the thoughts and desires of others”’
Just read something very similar in Thomas a Kempis. Strange bedfellows. 🙂

Drew Gibson
Drew Gibson
9 months ago

‘She dreamed of becoming completely impervious to other people’s opinions — to “refuse, completely and uncompromisingly, any surrender to the thoughts and desires of others”’
Just read something very similar in Thomas a Kempis. Strange bedfellows. 🙂

Ian Cooper
Ian Cooper
9 months ago

de Beauvoir against the mob – while seducing her school girls to be passed on to Sartre – they were the mob.

Ian Cooper
Ian Cooper
9 months ago

de Beauvoir against the mob – while seducing her school girls to be passed on to Sartre – they were the mob.

Catherine Conroy
Catherine Conroy
9 months ago

Great review, thank you.

Perry de Havilland
Perry de Havilland
9 months ago

“…as the architect of libertarianism Ayn Rand once put it
Rand was no such thing.

Perry de Havilland
Perry de Havilland
9 months ago

“…as the architect of libertarianism Ayn Rand once put it
Rand was no such thing.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago

Thanks for the recommendation as I admit I’ve only heard Weil’s name and been vaguely aware of her reputation until now. Stock’s essay undertakes* quite an idiosyncratic comparison or synthesis–Ayn Rand and a (post-conversion) Christian mystic?–but I also enjoyed it, on the strength of her writing and searching reflections.
I agree she may have welcomed a break from her “signature” topic. Stock demonstrates versatility as a thinker and writer, which may be increasing in the wake of her unjust dismissal from academia. Don’t know, just a guess.
*reading comprehension/pacing fail

Last edited 9 months ago by AJ Mac
CF Hankinson
CF Hankinson
9 months ago

Great review. The book comes out next week, I’ve bought it in advance and have bought Eilenberg’s earlier book on audible. Can’t wait. Thanks.

Andrew F
Andrew F
9 months ago

I read all the comments before writing this.
Completely dishonest article by Stock.
What about Simone and Sartre support for pedophiles?
What about her support for communist dictatorships?
Another vacuous, feminist drivel by Stock who somehow became darling of the right by opposing some of the idioces of the left.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Thank you for having the gall to say that! Someone had to, bravo!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Does every online profile or experimental comparison have to perform a comprehensive moral reckoning of each subject and perhaps their spouse too?
Has Ayn Rand had a net positive effect on her acolytes?
Would it be permissible to discuss the work of Oscar Wilde in a short essay without mentioning his sordid proclivities, for which he paid quite severely?
To mention Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin without mentioning the people they owned?
Anyway, good patience in waiting until so many comments were in to make sure your pre-loaded denunciatory bile was still needed. Since Stock tends to denounce no one in her writings by name, even those who have denounced her, her comment boards should be in need of your valuable services going forward.

John Riordan
John Riordan
9 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

“Another vacuous, feminist drivel by Stock who somehow became darling of the right by opposing some of the idioces of the left.”

One cannot oppose “some of the idiocies” of the Left. The only compliance is complete compliance, and heresy is complete heresy.

Last edited 9 months ago by John Riordan
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
9 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Thank you for having the gall to say that! Someone had to, bravo!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
9 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Does every online profile or experimental comparison have to perform a comprehensive moral reckoning of each subject and perhaps their spouse too?
Has Ayn Rand had a net positive effect on her acolytes?
Would it be permissible to discuss the work of Oscar Wilde in a short essay without mentioning his sordid proclivities, for which he paid quite severely?
To mention Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin without mentioning the people they owned?
Anyway, good patience in waiting until so many comments were in to make sure your pre-loaded denunciatory bile was still needed. Since Stock tends to denounce no one in her writings by name, even those who have denounced her, her comment boards should be in need of your valuable services going forward.

John Riordan
John Riordan
9 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

“Another vacuous, feminist drivel by Stock who somehow became darling of the right by opposing some of the idioces of the left.”

One cannot oppose “some of the idiocies” of the Left. The only compliance is complete compliance, and heresy is complete heresy.

Last edited 9 months ago by John Riordan
Andrew F
Andrew F
9 months ago

I read all the comments before writing this.
Completely dishonest article by Stock.
What about Simone and Sartre support for pedophiles?
What about her support for communist dictatorships?
Another vacuous, feminist drivel by Stock who somehow became darling of the right by opposing some of the idioces of the left.