On both sides of the Atlantic, hysterical comparisons between the collapse of the Roman Empire and the senile polities of the modern West have become the journalistic norm. In a sense, to ask whether the modern West is “declining like Rome” is to ask whether we are governed by people with the grit of Symmachus and the tenacity of Cassiodorus.
So what you’re saying is that the comparisons are not nearly hysterical enough.
On both sides of the Atlantic, hysterical comparisons between the collapse of the Roman Empire and the senile polities of the modern West have become the journalistic norm. In a sense, to ask whether the modern West is “declining like Rome” is to ask whether we are governed by people with the grit of Symmachus and the tenacity of Cassiodorus.
So what you’re saying is that the comparisons are not nearly hysterical enough.
Jim Veenbaas
8 months ago
This feels like an historical essay looking for a reason to be written. I quite enjoyed the essay actually, but when people compare the west to Rome, they are merely comparing the fall of one great empire to the potential fall of another.
Then why don’t they compare the potential fall of one to the fall of, say, the Mongol empire? The decadence thing is what the Gibbon fans are talking about. And whether they’re right or wrong in their historical parallels, it’s hard to deny that their sentiment’s in the right place.
Then why don’t they compare the potential fall of one to the fall of, say, the Mongol empire? The decadence thing is what the Gibbon fans are talking about. And whether they’re right or wrong in their historical parallels, it’s hard to deny that their sentiment’s in the right place.
Jim Veenbaas
8 months ago
This feels like an historical essay looking for a reason to be written. I quite enjoyed the essay actually, but when people compare the west to Rome, they are merely comparing the fall of one great empire to the potential fall of another.
T Bone
8 months ago
Rome was a centrally planned economy run by Philosopher Kings and enforced by Military Generals. A military dictatorship.
The point of a representative Democratic Republic was to decentralize and redistribute power to localities while creating checks on the Central Planner’s “Interest Convergence Strategy” to expand their own power. The social engineers’ goal is always to “integrate” everybody’s problems into “Social Insurance” Contract that’s managed by the Central Planner.
Stakeholder Capitalism is a fusion of State and Corporate power. Its an increase in Central Planning that offers the “benefit” of expanded Social Insurance which just so happens to come with Social Credit scoring.
If the West should have learned anything Post WW2 its that Command Economics isn’t the way to ensure domestic tranquility.
It’s frustrating to see stakeholder capitalism dragged into the political arena. A couple decades ago, Robert Bayless, former Chief Account at The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, declared that intangible assets were becoming more important and that public companies should do more to inform investors about how well those assets were being managed, leveraged and safeguarded. His statement never caused a stir.
Intangible assests are the nucleus of a multi-stakeholder operating system. In many ways, it simply makes managerial sense to focus on the quality of stakeholder relationships as an integral part of the day-to-day obligations of management. Does the corporate culture inspire employess to give their best effforts (employee engagement)? Do customers perceive enough value in their relationship with the company to remain loyal and pay prices that make that relationship an economically profitable one for the company? Do communities welcome the company to set up shop based on its reputation for being a good neighbor, or does the company incur friction costs when communities work to keep them out? Do they have a mutually beneficial and trusting relationship with their suppliers?
Politics ruins just about everything. Upstream intangible assets are critical to downstream financial performance. I can make this claim after having done the “roll up one’s sleeves” work to prove it during my previous life as a consultant. Internal intangible asset indexes were built and causal path models were used to evaluate the relationship between the performance of those indexes and corporate performance. And that relationship revealed itself in a significant way. Unfortunately, perverted distortions by those who advocate it and those opposed to it, are undermining the original, pragmatic intent of a multi-stakeholder operating system.
Respectfully, I’m going to have to disagree with you. I think the vague concept of “Stakeholders” justifies taking actions like awarding positions and moving money in non-transparent ways and then using symbolic virtue signaling as a distraction.
You listed numerous groups that fall into the “stakeholder” definition. There’s no reason those groups: Investors, Customers, Employees and Local Communities need to be merged into one category unless you’re intentionally being vague.
If you really want those groups to trust you and build a strong culture than the company should speak in clear, concise language that tells people “We’re doing our best” to meet your expectations. Good Faith Effort goes a long way.
Respectfully, I’m going to have to disagree with you. I think the vague concept of “Stakeholders” justifies taking actions like awarding positions and moving money in non-transparent ways and then using symbolic virtue signaling as a distraction.
You listed numerous groups that fall into the “stakeholder” definition. There’s no reason those groups: Investors, Customers, Employees and Local Communities need to be merged into one category unless you’re intentionally being vague.
If you really want those groups to trust you and build a strong culture than the company should speak in clear, concise language that tells people “We’re doing our best” to meet your expectations. Good Faith Effort goes a long way.
It’s frustrating to see stakeholder capitalism dragged into the political arena. A couple decades ago, Robert Bayless, former Chief Account at The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, declared that intangible assets were becoming more important and that public companies should do more to inform investors about how well those assets were being managed, leveraged and safeguarded. His statement never caused a stir.
Intangible assests are the nucleus of a multi-stakeholder operating system. In many ways, it simply makes managerial sense to focus on the quality of stakeholder relationships as an integral part of the day-to-day obligations of management. Does the corporate culture inspire employess to give their best effforts (employee engagement)? Do customers perceive enough value in their relationship with the company to remain loyal and pay prices that make that relationship an economically profitable one for the company? Do communities welcome the company to set up shop based on its reputation for being a good neighbor, or does the company incur friction costs when communities work to keep them out? Do they have a mutually beneficial and trusting relationship with their suppliers?
Politics ruins just about everything. Upstream intangible assets are critical to downstream financial performance. I can make this claim after having done the “roll up one’s sleeves” work to prove it during my previous life as a consultant. Internal intangible asset indexes were built and causal path models were used to evaluate the relationship between the performance of those indexes and corporate performance. And that relationship revealed itself in a significant way. Unfortunately, perverted distortions by those who advocate it and those opposed to it, are undermining the original, pragmatic intent of a multi-stakeholder operating system.
T Bone
8 months ago
Rome was a centrally planned economy run by Philosopher Kings and enforced by Military Generals. A military dictatorship.
The point of a representative Democratic Republic was to decentralize and redistribute power to localities while creating checks on the Central Planner’s “Interest Convergence Strategy” to expand their own power. The social engineers’ goal is always to “integrate” everybody’s problems into “Social Insurance” Contract that’s managed by the Central Planner.
Stakeholder Capitalism is a fusion of State and Corporate power. Its an increase in Central Planning that offers the “benefit” of expanded Social Insurance which just so happens to come with Social Credit scoring.
If the West should have learned anything Post WW2 its that Command Economics isn’t the way to ensure domestic tranquility.
Johann Strauss
8 months ago
Isn’t the truth that all empires rise and fall. Never mind the Roman empire or the Persian empire, just look at the good old British empire and where the UK is now, a satrapy of the US, or to put it in simpler terms our leaders act like poodles to the US political elites.
What is for sure is if the US continues on its current path of progressive wokeism, the decline will be rapid, only to be replaced by dictatorial regimes such as China.
Is “What is for sure…” the best choice of words? It seems to me (to quote a famous American philosiphizer) “Predictions are hard, especially about the future.”
Is “What is for sure…” the best choice of words? It seems to me (to quote a famous American philosiphizer) “Predictions are hard, especially about the future.”
Johann Strauss
8 months ago
Isn’t the truth that all empires rise and fall. Never mind the Roman empire or the Persian empire, just look at the good old British empire and where the UK is now, a satrapy of the US, or to put it in simpler terms our leaders act like poodles to the US political elites.
What is for sure is if the US continues on its current path of progressive wokeism, the decline will be rapid, only to be replaced by dictatorial regimes such as China.
Malcolm Knott
8 months ago
Perhaps we may better compare our condition to that of the Republic of Venice which, in the years of its decline, retained all the pomp and ceremony of a great nation but had long since ceased to take itself seriously and devoted most of its energy to carnivals and intrigues.
Malcolm Knott
8 months ago
Perhaps we may better compare our condition to that of the Republic of Venice which, in the years of its decline, retained all the pomp and ceremony of a great nation but had long since ceased to take itself seriously and devoted most of its energy to carnivals and intrigues.
Simon Neale
8 months ago
Hysterical parallels mask our true weakness
An entertainingly erudite essay, but I suspect our “true weakness” might be better dealt with in Mary Harrington’s essay.
Simon Neale
8 months ago
Hysterical parallels mask our true weakness
An entertainingly erudite essay, but I suspect our “true weakness” might be better dealt with in Mary Harrington’s essay.
David Barnett
8 months ago
Rome suffered many severe military defeats (eg. Hannibal’s invasion of Italy) throughout its history, but always bounced back. Central authority held, and the empire even expanded. But after 476, revival of the western empire was half-hearted and petered out after a generation or two. What changed? People no longer saw the imperial authority as a benefit.
The rot was already apparent 250 years earlier, when the overblown bureaucracy could not be financed except by inflation and widening the tax base to include every resident of the empire. That is where the today’s west is.
Yes, this. Obsolete bureaucracies become increasingly totalitarian as they cling desperately to whatever vestiges of power they once had. We see this happening with legacy news media and the education system. I believe we are on the cusp of a great cultural renaissance which is being suppressed by old twentieth-century style agencies turned toxic.
Yes, this. Obsolete bureaucracies become increasingly totalitarian as they cling desperately to whatever vestiges of power they once had. We see this happening with legacy news media and the education system. I believe we are on the cusp of a great cultural renaissance which is being suppressed by old twentieth-century style agencies turned toxic.
David Barnett
8 months ago
Rome suffered many severe military defeats (eg. Hannibal’s invasion of Italy) throughout its history, but always bounced back. Central authority held, and the empire even expanded. But after 476, revival of the western empire was half-hearted and petered out after a generation or two. What changed? People no longer saw the imperial authority as a benefit.
The rot was already apparent 250 years earlier, when the overblown bureaucracy could not be financed except by inflation and widening the tax base to include every resident of the empire. That is where the today’s west is.
David Yetter
8 months ago
God help us! Another in the long series of genuinely unserious historical discussions about the “Fall of Rome”. No mention of the fact that from 324 onward the capital of the Empire has been moved to the city Constantine called “New Rome” and everyone else called “Constantinople”. The dreadful event of 476 given such importance by Gibbon — chiefly because he wanted to dispossess the Eastern Empire of its Romanity, even a Charlemagne’s propaganists had by calling it the “Empire of the Hellenes” — was the retirement of the last Western Augustus to a villa near Naples because the Emperor (and Eastern Augustus) in Constantinople, Zeno, concluded that the parallel Western office was pointless, as the King of the Ostrogoths, in his other office as Patrician of the Romans, could look after imperial affairs in the old homeland of the Empire just fine.
No one notice that Rome “fell”. Indeed, centuries later, Charlemagne didn’t regard himself as establishing a new Empire, but reviving the disused office of Western Augustus, and only when his claim to the title was rebuffed by the Empress Irene and her court, did he style his Empire as the “Holy Roman ‘Empire” and begin slandering the actual Roman Empire, which was still very much a going concern in 800, as the “Empire of the Hellenes”, a vicious slander, as at that time “Hellene” had the sense of “Greek pagan”.
A fate like Rome for “The West”, if one wants to think of the present moment as akin to 476, would be something like the loss of Europe to some other civilization, with the West carrying on just fine in the Anglosphere (with or without Britain) for another six centuries, before declining into a city-state somewhere in the New World over the course of the next four, and then, finally truly falling.
“West carrying on just fine in the Anglosphere” ?
Anglosphere is is destroying the West. Cosmic scale corruption and tribal wars in the US, woke cancer eating UK, COVID fascism of Australia, Canada and NZ.
F…k Anglosphere
Partially agree. The Anglosphere Hermetically created the Mind Virus in its Academic Idea Labs but its basically a syncreticism of Romanticism, German Idealism and South American Liberation Theology.
Despite its many flaws, the Anglosphere is where I want to live to maximize my freedom (somewhat more limited that it was before) and prosperity (somewhat more limited). Anyone care to suggest a better place?
Partially agree. The Anglosphere Hermetically created the Mind Virus in its Academic Idea Labs but its basically a syncreticism of Romanticism, German Idealism and South American Liberation Theology.
Despite its many flaws, the Anglosphere is where I want to live to maximize my freedom (somewhat more limited that it was before) and prosperity (somewhat more limited). Anyone care to suggest a better place?
Charlemagne never called his realm the “Holy Roman Empire”, though he certainly regarded himself as the successor and heir of the western Roman Emperors. And nor did Otto the Great, though the so-called “Holy Roman Empire” is often considered to begin with his imperial coronation in 962. As far as I know it was only termed “Holy¨ in the mid-13th century, some three centuries after Otto and four after Charlemagne.
Well, Roman Empire didn’t fall until 1453, and the so-called Gothic takeover resulted in almost two centuries of extraordinary cultural and intellectual activity in Ravenna. The concept of Rome’s fall was created by Gibbon et al., who had their own cultural agenda to promote.
“West carrying on just fine in the Anglosphere” ?
Anglosphere is is destroying the West. Cosmic scale corruption and tribal wars in the US, woke cancer eating UK, COVID fascism of Australia, Canada and NZ.
F…k Anglosphere
Charlemagne never called his realm the “Holy Roman Empire”, though he certainly regarded himself as the successor and heir of the western Roman Emperors. And nor did Otto the Great, though the so-called “Holy Roman Empire” is often considered to begin with his imperial coronation in 962. As far as I know it was only termed “Holy¨ in the mid-13th century, some three centuries after Otto and four after Charlemagne.
Well, Roman Empire didn’t fall until 1453, and the so-called Gothic takeover resulted in almost two centuries of extraordinary cultural and intellectual activity in Ravenna. The concept of Rome’s fall was created by Gibbon et al., who had their own cultural agenda to promote.
David Yetter
8 months ago
God help us! Another in the long series of genuinely unserious historical discussions about the “Fall of Rome”. No mention of the fact that from 324 onward the capital of the Empire has been moved to the city Constantine called “New Rome” and everyone else called “Constantinople”. The dreadful event of 476 given such importance by Gibbon — chiefly because he wanted to dispossess the Eastern Empire of its Romanity, even a Charlemagne’s propaganists had by calling it the “Empire of the Hellenes” — was the retirement of the last Western Augustus to a villa near Naples because the Emperor (and Eastern Augustus) in Constantinople, Zeno, concluded that the parallel Western office was pointless, as the King of the Ostrogoths, in his other office as Patrician of the Romans, could look after imperial affairs in the old homeland of the Empire just fine.
No one notice that Rome “fell”. Indeed, centuries later, Charlemagne didn’t regard himself as establishing a new Empire, but reviving the disused office of Western Augustus, and only when his claim to the title was rebuffed by the Empress Irene and her court, did he style his Empire as the “Holy Roman ‘Empire” and begin slandering the actual Roman Empire, which was still very much a going concern in 800, as the “Empire of the Hellenes”, a vicious slander, as at that time “Hellene” had the sense of “Greek pagan”.
A fate like Rome for “The West”, if one wants to think of the present moment as akin to 476, would be something like the loss of Europe to some other civilization, with the West carrying on just fine in the Anglosphere (with or without Britain) for another six centuries, before declining into a city-state somewhere in the New World over the course of the next four, and then, finally truly falling.
R Wright
8 months ago
Reminds me of the archaeological dig at Hadrian’s Wall that showed that even decades after the end of Roman rule some unknown warband was still residing at one of the fortresses in a wooden structure, presumably still holding back the painted tribesman beyond the former frontier on behalf of one of the dozens of petty kingdoms and city states that popped up in the 5th century. Even amid absolute chaos there will be islands of order.
R Wright
8 months ago
Reminds me of the archaeological dig at Hadrian’s Wall that showed that even decades after the end of Roman rule some unknown warband was still residing at one of the fortresses in a wooden structure, presumably still holding back the painted tribesman beyond the former frontier on behalf of one of the dozens of petty kingdoms and city states that popped up in the 5th century. Even amid absolute chaos there will be islands of order.
Jonathan N
8 months ago
“The Urban Prefect dispensed justice, organised games, fed the mob and looked after the material fabric of the city. It was not an enviable position. One man had to keep the vast, turbulent metropolis ticking over with the minimum of rioting.”
Yesterday there was violent disorder in Oxford Street arising from a large mob of young people trying to loot the shops for sportswear and electronic goods. The Police issued dispersal orders and deployed horses to regain control. It does have “decline and fall” feel to it.
Last edited 8 months ago by Jonathan N
Jonathan N
8 months ago
“The Urban Prefect dispensed justice, organised games, fed the mob and looked after the material fabric of the city. It was not an enviable position. One man had to keep the vast, turbulent metropolis ticking over with the minimum of rioting.”
Yesterday there was violent disorder in Oxford Street arising from a large mob of young people trying to loot the shops for sportswear and electronic goods. The Police issued dispersal orders and deployed horses to regain control. It does have “decline and fall” feel to it.
Last edited 8 months ago by Jonathan N
Russell Sharpe
8 months ago
The city of Rome was not “swallowed up by a new Gothic regime in 476”, and it is rather misleading to say that thereafter “no-one could doubt that the western Roman Empire was at an end”. The Ostrogoths under their king Theodoric, acting with the express approval of the Empire, only invaded Italy in 489, and took Rome the following year. Until then it had been governed by Odoacer, another Germanic warlord of uncertain provenance, formally on behalf of the Roman Emperor Zeno in Constantinople. The fact that there was no longer (since 476) a Roman Emperor in the West did not mean that anyone doubted that legal authority did not still formally remain with the (now sole) Emperor, at least formally, and this legal fiction remained when Theodoric took over as the Emperor’s viceroy in 490. Roman citizens continued to be subject to and governed by Roman law. It was only in the 520s that the relationship between Theodoric and the Empire began to break down, eventually leading (after Theodoric’s death) to the ruinous Gothic Wars of the 530s-550s, which represent the true Fall of Rome. And within a few years of the Empire’s exhausting itself in the struggle to wrest de facto as well as de jure control of Rome and Italy back from the Ostrogoths, it was to lose it again, this time permanently, to the Lombards.
An excellent synopsis and a fine antidote to Yetter, thank you.
Russell Sharpe
8 months ago
The city of Rome was not “swallowed up by a new Gothic regime in 476”, and it is rather misleading to say that thereafter “no-one could doubt that the western Roman Empire was at an end”. The Ostrogoths under their king Theodoric, acting with the express approval of the Empire, only invaded Italy in 489, and took Rome the following year. Until then it had been governed by Odoacer, another Germanic warlord of uncertain provenance, formally on behalf of the Roman Emperor Zeno in Constantinople. The fact that there was no longer (since 476) a Roman Emperor in the West did not mean that anyone doubted that legal authority did not still formally remain with the (now sole) Emperor, at least formally, and this legal fiction remained when Theodoric took over as the Emperor’s viceroy in 490. Roman citizens continued to be subject to and governed by Roman law. It was only in the 520s that the relationship between Theodoric and the Empire began to break down, eventually leading (after Theodoric’s death) to the ruinous Gothic Wars of the 530s-550s, which represent the true Fall of Rome. And within a few years of the Empire’s exhausting itself in the struggle to wrest de facto as well as de jure control of Rome and Italy back from the Ostrogoths, it was to lose it again, this time permanently, to the Lombards.
Last edited 8 months ago by Russell Sharpe
Bruce Russell
8 months ago
Definitely can’t compare the West to ancient Rome. The Romans actually had functioning infrastructure
Bruce Russell
8 months ago
Definitely can’t compare the West to ancient Rome. The Romans actually had functioning infrastructure
Charles Stanhope
8 months ago
In case anyone is wondering the caption photograph is one Peter O’Toole about to flatten Masada,*in 73AD, to use Christian chronology.
In reality the siege was accomplished in about six weeks, such was the Roman expertise in these matters.
I wear a bow tie and once visited Wetherspoons in Manchester. I thought it was a very interesting essay even if it only nibbled at a subject which Gibbon dealt with at greater length.
I wear a bow tie and once visited Wetherspoons in Manchester. I thought it was a very interesting essay even if it only nibbled at a subject which Gibbon dealt with at greater length.
Last edited 8 months ago by Malcolm Knott
Dumetrius
8 months ago
These are arguments appropriate to the kind of gent who wears a bow tie to a Wetherspoon.
One of your posher Spoon’s. Muswell Hill maybe?
Last edited 8 months ago by Dumetrius
Michael Walsh
7 months ago
Regarding your point about bridges – our utterly useless London government can’t even fix a bridge* never mind build a new one
* Hammersmith
Charles Stanhope
8 months ago
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus Was a PAGAN! *
Need I say more?
To be a pagan in an era where temples were being closed down, philosophers attacked and the ancestral rites neglected took great courage. If you’re going to attack him on that basis at least be explicit.
I am NOT attacking him but rather I am praising him.
However it would be a total waste of time trying to explain his position, and indeed that of Paganism in general in the Late Roman Empire to the hallowed ranks of UnHerd readers.
I can say that categorically because I have tried on several occasions over the past few years. Some things people just don’t want to hear. C’est la vie!
My very slight familiarity with Paganism, Charles, comes from travels in India and a little reading of Brahmin and Jain texts.
Is this in any sense, Charles, connected with the Paganism driven out of Rome by Christianity?
An afternoon I spent 20 years ago with my wife in Vijayawada (Andhra Pradesh).
We crossed the Krishna river through the shallows beside the road bridge (closed) and bumped in our autorickshaw down a few miles of dirt road to a hillside with a rock-cut temple.
Two floors, three rooms on each floor. Many bas-relief carvings.
On the top floor a room with a wooden guichet and a single bare hanging lightbulb. At the entrance two rock-cut guardians with clubs and long teeth. Ahead of us a sleeping Vishnu.
He was twice life size. He lay on the coils of the giant snake that is eternity. He slept and dreamed. A few flowers and some saffron powder were scattered on his stomach, left there perhaps by the men of the Architectural Survey of India who keep the site.
The dream that Vishnu dreams is the Universe and all the life in it. You and I, Charles, are a part of his dream.
Bas reliefs of people and animals were carved on the wall beside their sleeping creator. We and our rickshaw driver were the only people there that afternoon. The driver was moved. He insisted we continue to the principle temple of the city on a hilltop. There we did puja (some rupees passed) to Vijaya, the goddess of the city, a form of Durga.
How long since in Europe and the Mediterranean world one could show such respect? Two millennia? And where and to what idol?
Ephesus and Diana before Christianity erased them?
And, perhaps, we are now at the terminus of monotheism where we worship ourselves in the form of mind. Dispensing with the ONE GOD whom WE created in our own image.
And, perhaps, we are now at the terminus of monotheism where we worship ourselves in the form of mind. Dispensing with the ONE GOD whom WE created in our own image.
An afternoon I spent 20 years ago with my wife in Vijayawada (Andhra Pradesh).
We crossed the Krishna river through the shallows beside the road bridge (closed) and bumped in our autorickshaw down a few miles of dirt road to a hillside with a rock-cut temple.
Two floors, three rooms on each floor. Many bas-relief carvings.
On the top floor a room with a wooden guichet and a single bare hanging lightbulb. At the entrance two rock-cut guardians with clubs and long teeth. Ahead of us a sleeping Vishnu.
He was twice life size. He lay on the coils of the giant snake that is eternity. He slept and dreamed. A few flowers and some saffron powder were scattered on his stomach, left there perhaps by the men of the Architectural Survey of India who keep the site.
The dream that Vishnu dreams is the Universe and all the life in it. You and I, Charles, are a part of his dream.
Bas reliefs of people and animals were carved on the wall beside their sleeping creator. We and our rickshaw driver were the only people there that afternoon. The driver was moved. He insisted we continue to the principle temple of the city on a hilltop. There we did puja (some rupees passed) to Vijaya, the goddess of the city, a form of Durga.
How long since in Europe and the Mediterranean world one could show such respect? Two millennia? And where and to what idol?
Ephesus and Diana before Christianity erased them?
My very slight familiarity with Paganism, Charles, comes from travels in India and a little reading of Brahmin and Jain texts.
Is this in any sense, Charles, connected with the Paganism driven out of Rome by Christianity?
I am NOT attacking him but rather I am praising him.
However it would be a total waste of time trying to explain his position, and indeed that of Paganism in general in the Late Roman Empire to the hallowed ranks of UnHerd readers.
I can say that categorically because I have tried on several occasions over the past few years. Some things people just don’t want to hear. C’est la vie!
To be a pagan in an era where temples were being closed down, philosophers attacked and the ancestral rites neglected took great courage. If you’re going to attack him on that basis at least be explicit.
Charles Stanhope
8 months ago
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus Was a PAGAN! *
Need I say more?
(*345c-402c AD, to use Christian chronology.)
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
To be fair, the author specifically mentions the more accurate and therefore relevant comparisons of America specifically to Rome at the end of the Republic period, just before the rise of Julius Caesar, a comparison with far too many and far too specific parallels to ignore entirely, and then proceeds to focus instead on the other, more hyperbolic, more easily countered comparisons of western civilization in general to the collapse of the western empire into medieval Europe, far more easily skewered as it constitutes an apples to oranges comparison thanks to vastly different basic conditions of technology. Moreover, it is doubtful a regional civilizational collapse of the scale of western Rome is even possible, given current communications and transportation realities. Comparisons to the fall of Rome thus, like the prophecies of doom related to climate or AI, can be filed neatly into the category of overblown apocalyptic predictions in general, which while varied in form, scale, and motivation, have always been ubiquitous throughout history.
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
To be fair, the author specifically mentions the more accurate and therefore relevant comparisons of America specifically to Rome at the end of the Republic period, just before the rise of Julius Caesar, a comparison with far too many and far too specific parallels to ignore entirely, and then proceeds to focus instead on the other, more hyperbolic, more easily countered comparisons of western civilization in general to the collapse of the western empire into medieval Europe, far more easily skewered as it constitutes an apples to oranges comparison thanks to vastly different basic conditions of technology. Moreover, it is doubtful a regional civilizational collapse of the scale of western Rome is even possible, given current communications and transportation realities. Comparisons to the fall of Rome thus, like the prophecies of doom related to climate or AI, can be filed neatly into the category of overblown apocalyptic predictions in general, which while varied in form, scale, and motivation, have always been ubiquitous throughout history.
On both sides of the Atlantic, hysterical comparisons between the collapse of the Roman Empire and the senile polities of the modern West have become the journalistic norm.
In a sense, to ask whether the modern West is “declining like Rome” is to ask whether we are governed by people with the grit of Symmachus and the tenacity of Cassiodorus.
So what you’re saying is that the comparisons are not nearly hysterical enough.
Yeah, that’s what I got from this piece too.
Yeah, that’s what I got from this piece too.
On both sides of the Atlantic, hysterical comparisons between the collapse of the Roman Empire and the senile polities of the modern West have become the journalistic norm.
In a sense, to ask whether the modern West is “declining like Rome” is to ask whether we are governed by people with the grit of Symmachus and the tenacity of Cassiodorus.
So what you’re saying is that the comparisons are not nearly hysterical enough.
This feels like an historical essay looking for a reason to be written. I quite enjoyed the essay actually, but when people compare the west to Rome, they are merely comparing the fall of one great empire to the potential fall of another.
Then why don’t they compare the potential fall of one to the fall of, say, the Mongol empire? The decadence thing is what the Gibbon fans are talking about. And whether they’re right or wrong in their historical parallels, it’s hard to deny that their sentiment’s in the right place.
Then why don’t they compare the potential fall of one to the fall of, say, the Mongol empire? The decadence thing is what the Gibbon fans are talking about. And whether they’re right or wrong in their historical parallels, it’s hard to deny that their sentiment’s in the right place.
This feels like an historical essay looking for a reason to be written. I quite enjoyed the essay actually, but when people compare the west to Rome, they are merely comparing the fall of one great empire to the potential fall of another.
Rome was a centrally planned economy run by Philosopher Kings and enforced by Military Generals. A military dictatorship.
The point of a representative Democratic Republic was to decentralize and redistribute power to localities while creating checks on the Central Planner’s “Interest Convergence Strategy” to expand their own power. The social engineers’ goal is always to “integrate” everybody’s problems into “Social Insurance” Contract that’s managed by the Central Planner.
Stakeholder Capitalism is a fusion of State and Corporate power. Its an increase in Central Planning that offers the “benefit” of expanded Social Insurance which just so happens to come with Social Credit scoring.
If the West should have learned anything Post WW2 its that Command Economics isn’t the way to ensure domestic tranquility.
It’s frustrating to see stakeholder capitalism dragged into the political arena. A couple decades ago, Robert Bayless, former Chief Account at The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, declared that intangible assets were becoming more important and that public companies should do more to inform investors about how well those assets were being managed, leveraged and safeguarded. His statement never caused a stir.
Intangible assests are the nucleus of a multi-stakeholder operating system. In many ways, it simply makes managerial sense to focus on the quality of stakeholder relationships as an integral part of the day-to-day obligations of management. Does the corporate culture inspire employess to give their best effforts (employee engagement)? Do customers perceive enough value in their relationship with the company to remain loyal and pay prices that make that relationship an economically profitable one for the company? Do communities welcome the company to set up shop based on its reputation for being a good neighbor, or does the company incur friction costs when communities work to keep them out? Do they have a mutually beneficial and trusting relationship with their suppliers?
Politics ruins just about everything. Upstream intangible assets are critical to downstream financial performance. I can make this claim after having done the “roll up one’s sleeves” work to prove it during my previous life as a consultant. Internal intangible asset indexes were built and causal path models were used to evaluate the relationship between the performance of those indexes and corporate performance. And that relationship revealed itself in a significant way. Unfortunately, perverted distortions by those who advocate it and those opposed to it, are undermining the original, pragmatic intent of a multi-stakeholder operating system.
Respectfully, I’m going to have to disagree with you. I think the vague concept of “Stakeholders” justifies taking actions like awarding positions and moving money in non-transparent ways and then using symbolic virtue signaling as a distraction.
You listed numerous groups that fall into the “stakeholder” definition. There’s no reason those groups: Investors, Customers, Employees and Local Communities need to be merged into one category unless you’re intentionally being vague.
If you really want those groups to trust you and build a strong culture than the company should speak in clear, concise language that tells people “We’re doing our best” to meet your expectations. Good Faith Effort goes a long way.
Respectfully, I’m going to have to disagree with you. I think the vague concept of “Stakeholders” justifies taking actions like awarding positions and moving money in non-transparent ways and then using symbolic virtue signaling as a distraction.
You listed numerous groups that fall into the “stakeholder” definition. There’s no reason those groups: Investors, Customers, Employees and Local Communities need to be merged into one category unless you’re intentionally being vague.
If you really want those groups to trust you and build a strong culture than the company should speak in clear, concise language that tells people “We’re doing our best” to meet your expectations. Good Faith Effort goes a long way.
It’s frustrating to see stakeholder capitalism dragged into the political arena. A couple decades ago, Robert Bayless, former Chief Account at The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, declared that intangible assets were becoming more important and that public companies should do more to inform investors about how well those assets were being managed, leveraged and safeguarded. His statement never caused a stir.
Intangible assests are the nucleus of a multi-stakeholder operating system. In many ways, it simply makes managerial sense to focus on the quality of stakeholder relationships as an integral part of the day-to-day obligations of management. Does the corporate culture inspire employess to give their best effforts (employee engagement)? Do customers perceive enough value in their relationship with the company to remain loyal and pay prices that make that relationship an economically profitable one for the company? Do communities welcome the company to set up shop based on its reputation for being a good neighbor, or does the company incur friction costs when communities work to keep them out? Do they have a mutually beneficial and trusting relationship with their suppliers?
Politics ruins just about everything. Upstream intangible assets are critical to downstream financial performance. I can make this claim after having done the “roll up one’s sleeves” work to prove it during my previous life as a consultant. Internal intangible asset indexes were built and causal path models were used to evaluate the relationship between the performance of those indexes and corporate performance. And that relationship revealed itself in a significant way. Unfortunately, perverted distortions by those who advocate it and those opposed to it, are undermining the original, pragmatic intent of a multi-stakeholder operating system.
Rome was a centrally planned economy run by Philosopher Kings and enforced by Military Generals. A military dictatorship.
The point of a representative Democratic Republic was to decentralize and redistribute power to localities while creating checks on the Central Planner’s “Interest Convergence Strategy” to expand their own power. The social engineers’ goal is always to “integrate” everybody’s problems into “Social Insurance” Contract that’s managed by the Central Planner.
Stakeholder Capitalism is a fusion of State and Corporate power. Its an increase in Central Planning that offers the “benefit” of expanded Social Insurance which just so happens to come with Social Credit scoring.
If the West should have learned anything Post WW2 its that Command Economics isn’t the way to ensure domestic tranquility.
Isn’t the truth that all empires rise and fall. Never mind the Roman empire or the Persian empire, just look at the good old British empire and where the UK is now, a satrapy of the US, or to put it in simpler terms our leaders act like poodles to the US political elites.
What is for sure is if the US continues on its current path of progressive wokeism, the decline will be rapid, only to be replaced by dictatorial regimes such as China.
Is “What is for sure…” the best choice of words? It seems to me (to quote a famous American philosiphizer) “Predictions are hard, especially about the future.”
Is “What is for sure…” the best choice of words? It seems to me (to quote a famous American philosiphizer) “Predictions are hard, especially about the future.”
Isn’t the truth that all empires rise and fall. Never mind the Roman empire or the Persian empire, just look at the good old British empire and where the UK is now, a satrapy of the US, or to put it in simpler terms our leaders act like poodles to the US political elites.
What is for sure is if the US continues on its current path of progressive wokeism, the decline will be rapid, only to be replaced by dictatorial regimes such as China.
Perhaps we may better compare our condition to that of the Republic of Venice which, in the years of its decline, retained all the pomp and ceremony of a great nation but had long since ceased to take itself seriously and devoted most of its energy to carnivals and intrigues.
Perhaps we may better compare our condition to that of the Republic of Venice which, in the years of its decline, retained all the pomp and ceremony of a great nation but had long since ceased to take itself seriously and devoted most of its energy to carnivals and intrigues.
An entertainingly erudite essay, but I suspect our “true weakness” might be better dealt with in Mary Harrington’s essay.
An entertainingly erudite essay, but I suspect our “true weakness” might be better dealt with in Mary Harrington’s essay.
Rome suffered many severe military defeats (eg. Hannibal’s invasion of Italy) throughout its history, but always bounced back. Central authority held, and the empire even expanded. But after 476, revival of the western empire was half-hearted and petered out after a generation or two. What changed? People no longer saw the imperial authority as a benefit.
The rot was already apparent 250 years earlier, when the overblown bureaucracy could not be financed except by inflation and widening the tax base to include every resident of the empire. That is where the today’s west is.
Yes, this. Obsolete bureaucracies become increasingly totalitarian as they cling desperately to whatever vestiges of power they once had. We see this happening with legacy news media and the education system. I believe we are on the cusp of a great cultural renaissance which is being suppressed by old twentieth-century style agencies turned toxic.
Yes, this. Obsolete bureaucracies become increasingly totalitarian as they cling desperately to whatever vestiges of power they once had. We see this happening with legacy news media and the education system. I believe we are on the cusp of a great cultural renaissance which is being suppressed by old twentieth-century style agencies turned toxic.
Rome suffered many severe military defeats (eg. Hannibal’s invasion of Italy) throughout its history, but always bounced back. Central authority held, and the empire even expanded. But after 476, revival of the western empire was half-hearted and petered out after a generation or two. What changed? People no longer saw the imperial authority as a benefit.
The rot was already apparent 250 years earlier, when the overblown bureaucracy could not be financed except by inflation and widening the tax base to include every resident of the empire. That is where the today’s west is.
God help us! Another in the long series of genuinely unserious historical discussions about the “Fall of Rome”. No mention of the fact that from 324 onward the capital of the Empire has been moved to the city Constantine called “New Rome” and everyone else called “Constantinople”. The dreadful event of 476 given such importance by Gibbon — chiefly because he wanted to dispossess the Eastern Empire of its Romanity, even a Charlemagne’s propaganists had by calling it the “Empire of the Hellenes” — was the retirement of the last Western Augustus to a villa near Naples because the Emperor (and Eastern Augustus) in Constantinople, Zeno, concluded that the parallel Western office was pointless, as the King of the Ostrogoths, in his other office as Patrician of the Romans, could look after imperial affairs in the old homeland of the Empire just fine.
No one notice that Rome “fell”. Indeed, centuries later, Charlemagne didn’t regard himself as establishing a new Empire, but reviving the disused office of Western Augustus, and only when his claim to the title was rebuffed by the Empress Irene and her court, did he style his Empire as the “Holy Roman ‘Empire” and begin slandering the actual Roman Empire, which was still very much a going concern in 800, as the “Empire of the Hellenes”, a vicious slander, as at that time “Hellene” had the sense of “Greek pagan”.
A fate like Rome for “The West”, if one wants to think of the present moment as akin to 476, would be something like the loss of Europe to some other civilization, with the West carrying on just fine in the Anglosphere (with or without Britain) for another six centuries, before declining into a city-state somewhere in the New World over the course of the next four, and then, finally truly falling.
Did no one teach YOU to write concise English sentences?
The sentence that begins “The dreadful of event of 476…….. “, rumbles on for an amazing 93 words and is almost incomprehensible as a result.
“God help us indeed”.
“West carrying on just fine in the Anglosphere” ?
Anglosphere is is destroying the West. Cosmic scale corruption and tribal wars in the US, woke cancer eating UK, COVID fascism of Australia, Canada and NZ.
F…k Anglosphere
Partially agree. The Anglosphere Hermetically created the Mind Virus in its Academic Idea Labs but its basically a syncreticism of Romanticism, German Idealism and South American Liberation Theology.
Despite its many flaws, the Anglosphere is where I want to live to maximize my freedom (somewhat more limited that it was before) and prosperity (somewhat more limited). Anyone care to suggest a better place?
Partially agree. The Anglosphere Hermetically created the Mind Virus in its Academic Idea Labs but its basically a syncreticism of Romanticism, German Idealism and South American Liberation Theology.
Despite its many flaws, the Anglosphere is where I want to live to maximize my freedom (somewhat more limited that it was before) and prosperity (somewhat more limited). Anyone care to suggest a better place?
Charlemagne never called his realm the “Holy Roman Empire”, though he certainly regarded himself as the successor and heir of the western Roman Emperors. And nor did Otto the Great, though the so-called “Holy Roman Empire” is often considered to begin with his imperial coronation in 962. As far as I know it was only termed “Holy¨ in the mid-13th century, some three centuries after Otto and four after Charlemagne.
1254, according to the Wikibeast, via the:’Lexikon des Mittelalters’.
1254, according to the Wikibeast, via the:’Lexikon des Mittelalters’.
Well, Roman Empire didn’t fall until 1453, and the so-called Gothic takeover resulted in almost two centuries of extraordinary cultural and intellectual activity in Ravenna. The concept of Rome’s fall was created by Gibbon et al., who had their own cultural agenda to promote.
Did no one teach YOU to write concise English sentences?
The sentence that begins “The dreadful of event of 476…….. “, rumbles on for an amazing 93 words and is almost incomprehensible as a result.
“God help us indeed”.
“West carrying on just fine in the Anglosphere” ?
Anglosphere is is destroying the West. Cosmic scale corruption and tribal wars in the US, woke cancer eating UK, COVID fascism of Australia, Canada and NZ.
F…k Anglosphere
Charlemagne never called his realm the “Holy Roman Empire”, though he certainly regarded himself as the successor and heir of the western Roman Emperors. And nor did Otto the Great, though the so-called “Holy Roman Empire” is often considered to begin with his imperial coronation in 962. As far as I know it was only termed “Holy¨ in the mid-13th century, some three centuries after Otto and four after Charlemagne.
Well, Roman Empire didn’t fall until 1453, and the so-called Gothic takeover resulted in almost two centuries of extraordinary cultural and intellectual activity in Ravenna. The concept of Rome’s fall was created by Gibbon et al., who had their own cultural agenda to promote.
God help us! Another in the long series of genuinely unserious historical discussions about the “Fall of Rome”. No mention of the fact that from 324 onward the capital of the Empire has been moved to the city Constantine called “New Rome” and everyone else called “Constantinople”. The dreadful event of 476 given such importance by Gibbon — chiefly because he wanted to dispossess the Eastern Empire of its Romanity, even a Charlemagne’s propaganists had by calling it the “Empire of the Hellenes” — was the retirement of the last Western Augustus to a villa near Naples because the Emperor (and Eastern Augustus) in Constantinople, Zeno, concluded that the parallel Western office was pointless, as the King of the Ostrogoths, in his other office as Patrician of the Romans, could look after imperial affairs in the old homeland of the Empire just fine.
No one notice that Rome “fell”. Indeed, centuries later, Charlemagne didn’t regard himself as establishing a new Empire, but reviving the disused office of Western Augustus, and only when his claim to the title was rebuffed by the Empress Irene and her court, did he style his Empire as the “Holy Roman ‘Empire” and begin slandering the actual Roman Empire, which was still very much a going concern in 800, as the “Empire of the Hellenes”, a vicious slander, as at that time “Hellene” had the sense of “Greek pagan”.
A fate like Rome for “The West”, if one wants to think of the present moment as akin to 476, would be something like the loss of Europe to some other civilization, with the West carrying on just fine in the Anglosphere (with or without Britain) for another six centuries, before declining into a city-state somewhere in the New World over the course of the next four, and then, finally truly falling.
Reminds me of the archaeological dig at Hadrian’s Wall that showed that even decades after the end of Roman rule some unknown warband was still residing at one of the fortresses in a wooden structure, presumably still holding back the painted tribesman beyond the former frontier on behalf of one of the dozens of petty kingdoms and city states that popped up in the 5th century. Even amid absolute chaos there will be islands of order.
Reminds me of the archaeological dig at Hadrian’s Wall that showed that even decades after the end of Roman rule some unknown warband was still residing at one of the fortresses in a wooden structure, presumably still holding back the painted tribesman beyond the former frontier on behalf of one of the dozens of petty kingdoms and city states that popped up in the 5th century. Even amid absolute chaos there will be islands of order.
“The Urban Prefect dispensed justice, organised games, fed the mob and looked after the material fabric of the city. It was not an enviable position. One man had to keep the vast, turbulent metropolis ticking over with the minimum of rioting.”
Yesterday there was violent disorder in Oxford Street arising from a large mob of young people trying to loot the shops for sportswear and electronic goods. The Police issued dispersal orders and deployed horses to regain control. It does have “decline and fall” feel to it.
“The Urban Prefect dispensed justice, organised games, fed the mob and looked after the material fabric of the city. It was not an enviable position. One man had to keep the vast, turbulent metropolis ticking over with the minimum of rioting.”
Yesterday there was violent disorder in Oxford Street arising from a large mob of young people trying to loot the shops for sportswear and electronic goods. The Police issued dispersal orders and deployed horses to regain control. It does have “decline and fall” feel to it.
The city of Rome was not “swallowed up by a new Gothic regime in 476”, and it is rather misleading to say that thereafter “no-one could doubt that the western Roman Empire was at an end”. The Ostrogoths under their king Theodoric, acting with the express approval of the Empire, only invaded Italy in 489, and took Rome the following year. Until then it had been governed by Odoacer, another Germanic warlord of uncertain provenance, formally on behalf of the Roman Emperor Zeno in Constantinople. The fact that there was no longer (since 476) a Roman Emperor in the West did not mean that anyone doubted that legal authority did not still formally remain with the (now sole) Emperor, at least formally, and this legal fiction remained when Theodoric took over as the Emperor’s viceroy in 490. Roman citizens continued to be subject to and governed by Roman law. It was only in the 520s that the relationship between Theodoric and the Empire began to break down, eventually leading (after Theodoric’s death) to the ruinous Gothic Wars of the 530s-550s, which represent the true Fall of Rome. And within a few years of the Empire’s exhausting itself in the struggle to wrest de facto as well as de jure control of Rome and Italy back from the Ostrogoths, it was to lose it again, this time permanently, to the Lombards.
An excellent synopsis and a fine antidote to Yetter, thank you.
An excellent synopsis and a fine antidote to Yetter, thank you.
The city of Rome was not “swallowed up by a new Gothic regime in 476”, and it is rather misleading to say that thereafter “no-one could doubt that the western Roman Empire was at an end”. The Ostrogoths under their king Theodoric, acting with the express approval of the Empire, only invaded Italy in 489, and took Rome the following year. Until then it had been governed by Odoacer, another Germanic warlord of uncertain provenance, formally on behalf of the Roman Emperor Zeno in Constantinople. The fact that there was no longer (since 476) a Roman Emperor in the West did not mean that anyone doubted that legal authority did not still formally remain with the (now sole) Emperor, at least formally, and this legal fiction remained when Theodoric took over as the Emperor’s viceroy in 490. Roman citizens continued to be subject to and governed by Roman law. It was only in the 520s that the relationship between Theodoric and the Empire began to break down, eventually leading (after Theodoric’s death) to the ruinous Gothic Wars of the 530s-550s, which represent the true Fall of Rome. And within a few years of the Empire’s exhausting itself in the struggle to wrest de facto as well as de jure control of Rome and Italy back from the Ostrogoths, it was to lose it again, this time permanently, to the Lombards.
Definitely can’t compare the West to ancient Rome. The Romans actually had functioning infrastructure
Definitely can’t compare the West to ancient Rome. The Romans actually had functioning infrastructure
In case anyone is wondering the caption photograph is one Peter O’Toole about to flatten Masada,*in 73AD, to use Christian chronology.
In reality the siege was accomplished in about six weeks, such was the Roman expertise in these matters.
(*Now in Israel.)
Dear Charles, a gentleman of your vintage should know that for Christians it would be AD 73, not 73AD.
Dear Charles, a gentleman of your vintage should know that for Christians it would be AD 73, not 73AD.
In case anyone is wondering the caption photograph is one Peter O’Toole about to flatten Masada,*in 73AD, to use Christian chronology.
In reality the siege was accomplished in about six weeks, such was the Roman expertise in these matters.
(*Now in Israel.)
These are arguments appropriate to the kind of gent who wears a bow tie to a Wetherspoon.
One of your posher Spoon’s. Muswell Hill maybe?
Or even QUISLINGTON!
I wear a bow tie and once visited Wetherspoons in Manchester. I thought it was a very interesting essay even if it only nibbled at a subject which Gibbon dealt with at greater length.
Or even QUISLINGTON!
I wear a bow tie and once visited Wetherspoons in Manchester. I thought it was a very interesting essay even if it only nibbled at a subject which Gibbon dealt with at greater length.
These are arguments appropriate to the kind of gent who wears a bow tie to a Wetherspoon.
One of your posher Spoon’s. Muswell Hill maybe?
Regarding your point about bridges – our utterly useless London government can’t even fix a bridge* never mind build a new one
* Hammersmith
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus Was a PAGAN! *
Need I say more?
(*345c-402c AD, to use Christian chronology.)
To be a pagan in an era where temples were being closed down, philosophers attacked and the ancestral rites neglected took great courage. If you’re going to attack him on that basis at least be explicit.
I am NOT attacking him but rather I am praising him.
However it would be a total waste of time trying to explain his position, and indeed that of Paganism in general in the Late Roman Empire to the hallowed ranks of UnHerd readers.
I can say that categorically because I have tried on several occasions over the past few years. Some things people just don’t want to hear. C’est la vie!
My very slight familiarity with Paganism, Charles, comes from travels in India and a little reading of Brahmin and Jain texts.
Is this in any sense, Charles, connected with the Paganism driven out of Rome by Christianity?
Indeed it is.
An afternoon I spent 20 years ago with my wife in Vijayawada (Andhra Pradesh).
We crossed the Krishna river through the shallows beside the road bridge (closed) and bumped in our autorickshaw down a few miles of dirt road to a hillside with a rock-cut temple.
Two floors, three rooms on each floor. Many bas-relief carvings.
On the top floor a room with a wooden guichet and a single bare hanging lightbulb. At the entrance two rock-cut guardians with clubs and long teeth. Ahead of us a sleeping Vishnu.
He was twice life size. He lay on the coils of the giant snake that is eternity. He slept and dreamed. A few flowers and some saffron powder were scattered on his stomach, left there perhaps by the men of the Architectural Survey of India who keep the site.
The dream that Vishnu dreams is the Universe and all the life in it. You and I, Charles, are a part of his dream.
Bas reliefs of people and animals were carved on the wall beside their sleeping creator. We and our rickshaw driver were the only people there that afternoon. The driver was moved. He insisted we continue to the principle temple of the city on a hilltop. There we did puja (some rupees passed) to Vijaya, the goddess of the city, a form of Durga.
How long since in Europe and the Mediterranean world one could show such respect? Two millennia? And where and to what idol?
Ephesus and Diana before Christianity erased them?
“Thou shalt have no other gods before me”* is perhaps the most INTOLERANT remark there has ever been.
QED.
(*Exodus.20:2.)
And, perhaps, we are now at the terminus of monotheism where we worship ourselves in the form of mind. Dispensing with the ONE GOD whom WE created in our own image.
Hence AI?
Pride before the fall…AI.
Pride before the fall…AI.
Hence AI?
And, perhaps, we are now at the terminus of monotheism where we worship ourselves in the form of mind. Dispensing with the ONE GOD whom WE created in our own image.
“Thou shalt have no other gods before me”* is perhaps the most INTOLERANT remark there has ever been.
QED.
(*Exodus.20:2.)
An afternoon I spent 20 years ago with my wife in Vijayawada (Andhra Pradesh).
We crossed the Krishna river through the shallows beside the road bridge (closed) and bumped in our autorickshaw down a few miles of dirt road to a hillside with a rock-cut temple.
Two floors, three rooms on each floor. Many bas-relief carvings.
On the top floor a room with a wooden guichet and a single bare hanging lightbulb. At the entrance two rock-cut guardians with clubs and long teeth. Ahead of us a sleeping Vishnu.
He was twice life size. He lay on the coils of the giant snake that is eternity. He slept and dreamed. A few flowers and some saffron powder were scattered on his stomach, left there perhaps by the men of the Architectural Survey of India who keep the site.
The dream that Vishnu dreams is the Universe and all the life in it. You and I, Charles, are a part of his dream.
Bas reliefs of people and animals were carved on the wall beside their sleeping creator. We and our rickshaw driver were the only people there that afternoon. The driver was moved. He insisted we continue to the principle temple of the city on a hilltop. There we did puja (some rupees passed) to Vijaya, the goddess of the city, a form of Durga.
How long since in Europe and the Mediterranean world one could show such respect? Two millennia? And where and to what idol?
Ephesus and Diana before Christianity erased them?
Indeed it is.
My very slight familiarity with Paganism, Charles, comes from travels in India and a little reading of Brahmin and Jain texts.
Is this in any sense, Charles, connected with the Paganism driven out of Rome by Christianity?
I am NOT attacking him but rather I am praising him.
However it would be a total waste of time trying to explain his position, and indeed that of Paganism in general in the Late Roman Empire to the hallowed ranks of UnHerd readers.
I can say that categorically because I have tried on several occasions over the past few years. Some things people just don’t want to hear. C’est la vie!
To be a pagan in an era where temples were being closed down, philosophers attacked and the ancestral rites neglected took great courage. If you’re going to attack him on that basis at least be explicit.
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus Was a PAGAN! *
Need I say more?
(*345c-402c AD, to use Christian chronology.)
To be fair, the author specifically mentions the more accurate and therefore relevant comparisons of America specifically to Rome at the end of the Republic period, just before the rise of Julius Caesar, a comparison with far too many and far too specific parallels to ignore entirely, and then proceeds to focus instead on the other, more hyperbolic, more easily countered comparisons of western civilization in general to the collapse of the western empire into medieval Europe, far more easily skewered as it constitutes an apples to oranges comparison thanks to vastly different basic conditions of technology. Moreover, it is doubtful a regional civilizational collapse of the scale of western Rome is even possible, given current communications and transportation realities. Comparisons to the fall of Rome thus, like the prophecies of doom related to climate or AI, can be filed neatly into the category of overblown apocalyptic predictions in general, which while varied in form, scale, and motivation, have always been ubiquitous throughout history.
To be fair, the author specifically mentions the more accurate and therefore relevant comparisons of America specifically to Rome at the end of the Republic period, just before the rise of Julius Caesar, a comparison with far too many and far too specific parallels to ignore entirely, and then proceeds to focus instead on the other, more hyperbolic, more easily countered comparisons of western civilization in general to the collapse of the western empire into medieval Europe, far more easily skewered as it constitutes an apples to oranges comparison thanks to vastly different basic conditions of technology. Moreover, it is doubtful a regional civilizational collapse of the scale of western Rome is even possible, given current communications and transportation realities. Comparisons to the fall of Rome thus, like the prophecies of doom related to climate or AI, can be filed neatly into the category of overblown apocalyptic predictions in general, which while varied in form, scale, and motivation, have always been ubiquitous throughout history.