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N Satori
N Satori
8 months ago

China, then, is extending its reach accross the world, eager as any other technologically advanced nation for resources to sustain itself and feed its greater ambitions. They have a great advantage over the West of being able to do this quite shamelessly, uninhibited by concern with the morality of exploitation – something the West’s university educated class have come to believe is all that really matters.
Our elites would like us to put up with an increasingly regressive culture just so long as we can’t be accused of the (alleged) sin of exploitation. While China wins the future we will win “the huddled masses yearning…” for a First World life. While China benefits from the use of natural resources wherever it can find them we will “benefit” from a rewilded environment bringing joy only to privileged (and deluded) latter-day Romantics.

Last edited 8 months ago by N Satori
Simon Neale
Simon Neale
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Excellent point, well made.

Carmel Shortall
Carmel Shortall
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

“While China benefits from the use of natural resources wherever it can find them we will “benefit” from a rewilded environment bringing joy only to privileged (and deluded) latter-day Romantics.”

The “rewilded environment” is merely the ‘bait’ while acres upon acres of solar panel and wind farms will be the ‘switch’. And still there will not be enough energy for the UK huddled masses under Net Zero.

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Excellent point, well made.

Carmel Shortall
Carmel Shortall
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

“While China benefits from the use of natural resources wherever it can find them we will “benefit” from a rewilded environment bringing joy only to privileged (and deluded) latter-day Romantics.”

The “rewilded environment” is merely the ‘bait’ while acres upon acres of solar panel and wind farms will be the ‘switch’. And still there will not be enough energy for the UK huddled masses under Net Zero.

N Satori
N Satori
8 months ago

China, then, is extending its reach accross the world, eager as any other technologically advanced nation for resources to sustain itself and feed its greater ambitions. They have a great advantage over the West of being able to do this quite shamelessly, uninhibited by concern with the morality of exploitation – something the West’s university educated class have come to believe is all that really matters.
Our elites would like us to put up with an increasingly regressive culture just so long as we can’t be accused of the (alleged) sin of exploitation. While China wins the future we will win “the huddled masses yearning…” for a First World life. While China benefits from the use of natural resources wherever it can find them we will “benefit” from a rewilded environment bringing joy only to privileged (and deluded) latter-day Romantics.

Last edited 8 months ago by N Satori
David McKee
David McKee
8 months ago

Caplan avoids the Orientalism of Clinton, Blair, Bush and Obama, in that he refuses to map Western political structures onto the Global South. He knew, before Bush and Blair found out the hard way, you cannot drop democracy from a bomb-bay door at 30,000 ft.

However, he embraces the Orientalism of seeing the Global South as an irredeemable shambles, unable and unwilling to better itself. He denies the people there any agency to choose and work for the future of their choice.

If we want to help, we should do it with knowledge and humility. If we are tempted to offer our opinions, we should zip our lips.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
8 months ago
Reply to  David McKee

“you cannot drop democracy from a bomb-bay door at 30,000 ft.”
An excellent metaphor, I thank you.

David McKee
David McKee
8 months ago

It is not, alas, an original insight, but thank you for the compliment.

David McKee
David McKee
8 months ago

It is not, alas, an original insight, but thank you for the compliment.

N Satori
N Satori
8 months ago
Reply to  David McKee

“…democracy from a bomb-bay door…”

Well, I guess that’s now the popular image of the 2003 Gulf War – particularly among those who have always been itching to put Tony Blair on trial for war crimes [that includes one or two grubby Lefties of my unwelcome acquaintance].
It would be more true to say that one of the West’s great delusions is that all the peoples of the world are yearning for democracy and would grasp it with both hands if they could. We just need to help them out by ousting the tyrannical regimes which prevent them from fulfilling this alleged yearning.
Unfortunately, democracy is not looking too successful, even in our own backyard.

Pedro the Exile
Pedro the Exile
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

democracy is not looking too successful,
If you assume that we are in fact living in a democracy which is highly debatable .However,it still beats theocracy ,autocracy and anarchy!

N Satori
N Satori
8 months ago

That depends on your beliefs hopes and aspirations:
If you believe that God has given us firm instructions on how we should live then theocracy is the way to go. If you hope for an orderly world run with a firm hand then autocracy holds some appeal. If you aspire to freedom from the authority of other men then anarchy must be tempting aspiration.Democracy means settling for the tyranny of the majority (in theory at least), Of course you really have to worry about how intelligent and well informed that majority is.

Last edited 8 months ago by N Satori
Dylan Blackhurst
Dylan Blackhurst
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

I’ve seen how intelligent our experts and elite are and on balance I think large parts of majority are a good deal better informed than many might think.

Martin Johnson
Martin Johnson
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Or, a constitutional democracy that limits the powers of the governing majority and protects everyone including those not in the majority from outrageous acts.

Dylan Blackhurst
Dylan Blackhurst
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

I’ve seen how intelligent our experts and elite are and on balance I think large parts of majority are a good deal better informed than many might think.

Martin Johnson
Martin Johnson
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Or, a constitutional democracy that limits the powers of the governing majority and protects everyone including those not in the majority from outrageous acts.

N Satori
N Satori
8 months ago

That depends on your beliefs hopes and aspirations:
If you believe that God has given us firm instructions on how we should live then theocracy is the way to go. If you hope for an orderly world run with a firm hand then autocracy holds some appeal. If you aspire to freedom from the authority of other men then anarchy must be tempting aspiration.Democracy means settling for the tyranny of the majority (in theory at least), Of course you really have to worry about how intelligent and well informed that majority is.

Last edited 8 months ago by N Satori
Chipoko
Chipoko
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

The demise of democracy was accelerated by the arrival of Covid 19, though the infection of Marxist doctrine within the western democratic body politic has been steadily sapping its vitality since the 1950s.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
8 months ago
Reply to  Chipoko

What a sheltered life you’ve led

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
8 months ago
Reply to  Chipoko

What a sheltered life you’ve led

Pedro the Exile
Pedro the Exile
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

democracy is not looking too successful,
If you assume that we are in fact living in a democracy which is highly debatable .However,it still beats theocracy ,autocracy and anarchy!

Chipoko
Chipoko
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

The demise of democracy was accelerated by the arrival of Covid 19, though the infection of Marxist doctrine within the western democratic body politic has been steadily sapping its vitality since the 1950s.

Mike Downing
Mike Downing
8 months ago
Reply to  David McKee

I agree but I think that the whole situation is a double-sided mess and far more complex and there are always just as many dishonest actors on their side as ours; cue the huddled masses beating their breasts for the cameras demanding ‘freedom’, the constant requests for endless money and weapons, all the jockeying for supremacy among rival groups and the siphoning off of funds.

An NGO speaking on the radio who’d spent his whole life trying to ‘help’ said he finally came to the conclusion that 90% of it had been a complete waste of time. But we can’t do nothing supposedly as that would be uncaring and so it goes on. White saviour complex anybody ?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
8 months ago
Reply to  David McKee

“you cannot drop democracy from a bomb-bay door at 30,000 ft.”
An excellent metaphor, I thank you.

N Satori
N Satori
8 months ago
Reply to  David McKee

“…democracy from a bomb-bay door…”

Well, I guess that’s now the popular image of the 2003 Gulf War – particularly among those who have always been itching to put Tony Blair on trial for war crimes [that includes one or two grubby Lefties of my unwelcome acquaintance].
It would be more true to say that one of the West’s great delusions is that all the peoples of the world are yearning for democracy and would grasp it with both hands if they could. We just need to help them out by ousting the tyrannical regimes which prevent them from fulfilling this alleged yearning.
Unfortunately, democracy is not looking too successful, even in our own backyard.

Mike Downing
Mike Downing
8 months ago
Reply to  David McKee

I agree but I think that the whole situation is a double-sided mess and far more complex and there are always just as many dishonest actors on their side as ours; cue the huddled masses beating their breasts for the cameras demanding ‘freedom’, the constant requests for endless money and weapons, all the jockeying for supremacy among rival groups and the siphoning off of funds.

An NGO speaking on the radio who’d spent his whole life trying to ‘help’ said he finally came to the conclusion that 90% of it had been a complete waste of time. But we can’t do nothing supposedly as that would be uncaring and so it goes on. White saviour complex anybody ?

David McKee
David McKee
8 months ago

Caplan avoids the Orientalism of Clinton, Blair, Bush and Obama, in that he refuses to map Western political structures onto the Global South. He knew, before Bush and Blair found out the hard way, you cannot drop democracy from a bomb-bay door at 30,000 ft.

However, he embraces the Orientalism of seeing the Global South as an irredeemable shambles, unable and unwilling to better itself. He denies the people there any agency to choose and work for the future of their choice.

If we want to help, we should do it with knowledge and humility. If we are tempted to offer our opinions, we should zip our lips.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago

“and without its perennial curse: foreign meddling.”
It seems to me that the Arab/Muslim world has done more that its fair share of ‘meddling’ too.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago

“and without its perennial curse: foreign meddling.”
It seems to me that the Arab/Muslim world has done more that its fair share of ‘meddling’ too.

James Sullivan
James Sullivan
8 months ago

Bit of a quibble – the Turks, Greeks, and Armenians may have co-existed under the Ottoman empire, but it wasn’t peaceful – the latter two were subject conquered peoples – as were the Arabs further south. Nationalism may have played a part in cracking that order, but Ottoman caprice and brutality were significant even before the modern concept of nationalism arose.

Andrew F
Andrew F
8 months ago
Reply to  James Sullivan

Exactly,
total nonsense about Ottoman Empire.
Equally applicable to Russian Empire, Greater Serbia and all other European colonial powers.
Whether newly independent countries can govern themselves (Africa anyone?) Is another matter.

Andrew F
Andrew F
8 months ago
Reply to  James Sullivan

Exactly,
total nonsense about Ottoman Empire.
Equally applicable to Russian Empire, Greater Serbia and all other European colonial powers.
Whether newly independent countries can govern themselves (Africa anyone?) Is another matter.

James Sullivan
James Sullivan
8 months ago

Bit of a quibble – the Turks, Greeks, and Armenians may have co-existed under the Ottoman empire, but it wasn’t peaceful – the latter two were subject conquered peoples – as were the Arabs further south. Nationalism may have played a part in cracking that order, but Ottoman caprice and brutality were significant even before the modern concept of nationalism arose.

Jürg Gassmann
Jürg Gassmann
8 months ago

Am I the only one to find the cloying sycophancy nauseating?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
8 months ago
Reply to  Jürg Gassmann

No.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
8 months ago
Reply to  Jürg Gassmann

No.

Jürg Gassmann
Jürg Gassmann
8 months ago

Am I the only one to find the cloying sycophancy nauseating?

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
8 months ago

Peter Frankopan’s The Silk Roads is also very good on this.

Last edited 8 months ago by Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
8 months ago

Peter Frankopan’s The Silk Roads is also very good on this.

Last edited 8 months ago by Martin Bollis
Simon Diggins
Simon Diggins
8 months ago

Fascinating article and debate below.

The question is: what do we do about it?

• Lose our illusions ✔️
• Recognise our values are not universal
values✔️
• Arm. Because the truth of the second bullet will not necessarily be accepted by our opponents; ie they will make the same mistake and try and impose their version of ‘universalist’ values.✔️

One might be tempted to quote Sun Tzu about the need to know oneself, before you seek to know your opponent.

Last edited 8 months ago by Simon Diggins
Brooke Walford
Brooke Walford
8 months ago

In a wonderfully succinct book — The Tragic Mind- Kaplan plunders the Greeks and Shakespeare to help us fully comprehend the difference between tyranny and chaos.

William Brand
William Brand
1 month ago

It is interesting that Moslems are outraged at Israel but have no problems with how China treats its Moslem minority. The Houthis have proclaimed that Chinese ships are free to sail past their blockade of the red sea. Even Turkey has no problems with genocidal treatment of Turkish speaking minorities in China. They even deport exiles to China.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
8 months ago

“This tendency to view the world as an extension of the United States is simple, and simplistic.”
The reality is that in its role as melting pot, it’s much more that the United States is an extension of the world – which gives it the duty extend the mechanisms of its own success back to its antecedents. Yes, it’s “cultural imperialism,” and is not only a good thing for the world, it’s the mandatory thing for the world. Or we can leave them endlessly murdering each other to their hearts’ content – which was going on long before modern imperialism.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Whiteness: the best thing that ever happened.

Jürg Gassmann
Jürg Gassmann
8 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Albertus Mag­nus, the 13th century sage, polymath, and saint, associated a very white complexion with effeminacy, bar­ba­ri­an­ism, and slow intelligence.
Albertus Magnus, De animali­bus, ed. Hermann Stadler (Münster: Aschendorff, 1920), Lib. XX, Tract. 1, Cap. 11, 1305

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
8 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

I see you’ve decided to bring race into it. I didn’t. I’m talking about culture. Look at the direction in which world population flows and you’ll find the successful culture. Unfortunately, we can’t solve world poverty by evacuating the Third World to the First. What we can do is export First World culture to the suffering Third World. That begins by admitting that First World culture is more successful and deserves to be emulated. Perhaps you disagree and have chosen to vote with your feet for the Third World?

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

“That begins by admitting that First World culture is more successful and deserves to be emulated.”
I agree. However, note that the woke refer to First World culture as ‘whiteness’ so it’s them bringing race into it, not me. Still I do think race is a factor. Is it just a coincidence that FWC and a white population are so tightly coincident? I suspect that the race shapes the culture and then the culture shapes the race so that the two things become soft-linked. In the same way, we see that all Arab countries share a certain similarity and that everywhere that Blacks rule — from Zimbabwe to Detroit — the same sort of dysfunction will prevail — as useful generalizations!

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

“That begins by admitting that First World culture is more successful and deserves to be emulated.”
I agree. However, note that the woke refer to First World culture as ‘whiteness’ so it’s them bringing race into it, not me. Still I do think race is a factor. Is it just a coincidence that FWC and a white population are so tightly coincident? I suspect that the race shapes the culture and then the culture shapes the race so that the two things become soft-linked. In the same way, we see that all Arab countries share a certain similarity and that everywhere that Blacks rule — from Zimbabwe to Detroit — the same sort of dysfunction will prevail — as useful generalizations!

Jürg Gassmann
Jürg Gassmann
8 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Albertus Mag­nus, the 13th century sage, polymath, and saint, associated a very white complexion with effeminacy, bar­ba­ri­an­ism, and slow intelligence.
Albertus Magnus, De animali­bus, ed. Hermann Stadler (Münster: Aschendorff, 1920), Lib. XX, Tract. 1, Cap. 11, 1305

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
8 months ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

I see you’ve decided to bring race into it. I didn’t. I’m talking about culture. Look at the direction in which world population flows and you’ll find the successful culture. Unfortunately, we can’t solve world poverty by evacuating the Third World to the First. What we can do is export First World culture to the suffering Third World. That begins by admitting that First World culture is more successful and deserves to be emulated. Perhaps you disagree and have chosen to vote with your feet for the Third World?

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
8 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

And who said satire was dead. The US is no kind of example to the rest of the world. Not on any level.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Whiteness: the best thing that ever happened.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
8 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

And who said satire was dead. The US is no kind of example to the rest of the world. Not on any level.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
8 months ago

“This tendency to view the world as an extension of the United States is simple, and simplistic.”
The reality is that in its role as melting pot, it’s much more that the United States is an extension of the world – which gives it the duty extend the mechanisms of its own success back to its antecedents. Yes, it’s “cultural imperialism,” and is not only a good thing for the world, it’s the mandatory thing for the world. Or we can leave them endlessly murdering each other to their hearts’ content – which was going on long before modern imperialism.

Ian Johnston
Ian Johnston
8 months ago

Go to a region and decide: who are the victims? Who are the oppressors? Who is black, who is white? Often, the categories are not only irrelevant but unhelpful, and even dangerous.

With your simplistic maunderings on the topic of Ukraine, this really is the pot calling the kettle black, Mr Patrikarkos.

Ian Johnston
Ian Johnston
8 months ago

Go to a region and decide: who are the victims? Who are the oppressors? Who is black, who is white? Often, the categories are not only irrelevant but unhelpful, and even dangerous.

With your simplistic maunderings on the topic of Ukraine, this really is the pot calling the kettle black, Mr Patrikarkos.