I keep hearing that if we allow Russia to take over even a little part of Ukraine this will encourage them and will inevitably lead to the Russians invading the whole of Europe. This is not logical. Russia does not want a war with NATO (in the same way as NATO does not want an all-out war with Russia), and any further expansion beyond Ukraine inevitably leads to a war with NATO as – with the exception of Moldova and Belorussia, all Ukraine’s neighbours are NATO members. By trying to “save” Ukraine we are committing economic suicide: our runaway inflation stems from higher energy prices which are the consequence of cutting off Russia. On the other hand, a few (powerful) people are making a lot of money from this war, both in Russia and in the West. The US has hugely multiplied its profits from LNG exports to Europe, and weapons manufacturers are making a killing as Western governments pay for Ukraine’s weapons. We normal people in the meantime are being fleeced every time we go to the supermarket or to fill up our cars, and our public services are being cut back time after time as our schools and hospitals fall into disarray and disrepair.
I know I’ll get called a Russian Bot, an enemy sympathiser, a fifth columnist, Putin-lover or whatnot but the truth of it is simply that I believe governments should do what is best for their own people, and at the moment I don’t think supporting Ukraine is in the interest of any normal people in any Western European country.
“You’re” is the abbreviated form of “You are” – hence the apostrophe to replace the missing “a”. I believe you meant “Your” which is the correct possessive pronoun. There, now you can add “grammar nazi” to the list.
“You’re” is the abbreviated form of “You are” – hence the apostrophe to replace the missing “a”. I believe you meant “Your” which is the correct possessive pronoun. There, now you can add “grammar nazi” to the list.
The mind boggles.
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans, who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities.
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine?
The mind boggles. God help us all.
Inflation and economic turmoil was caused by the ludicrous COVID lockdowns and the massive Gov’t spending they unleashed, and Europe’s insane net-zero commitment. A recession was to be expected.
All Europe needs to do to reverse the economic impact of the war is to re-open its nuclear power plants, and authorize fracking.
When you say ‘re-open its nuclear power plants…’ – how does that work in the UK? I wonder also if ten years of the free money ‘QE’ pump, and the diversion of the consequent wealth upwards might have something to do with the current economic degringolade?
When you say ‘re-open its nuclear power plants…’ – how does that work in the UK? I wonder also if ten years of the free money ‘QE’ pump, and the diversion of the consequent wealth upwards might have something to do with the current economic degringolade?
A reasonable point to make. But I’d rather have a Russia on the other side of a buffer zone (aka Ukraine) than one right next to a NATO border. If someone in Russia freaks out at some point in the future, at least a buffer allows a breathing space in which to prevent armageddon.
Many of the ‘significant Russian population’ in those provinces have either decamped to Russia (or elsewhere) until it’s all over, or have been so horrified by the reality of what Russian rule of Ukraine actually looks like that they’re totally against it now.
Many of the ‘significant Russian population’ in those provinces have either decamped to Russia (or elsewhere) until it’s all over, or have been so horrified by the reality of what Russian rule of Ukraine actually looks like that they’re totally against it now.
Utter nonsense.
Russia started this war because it does not want independent, democratic Ukraine on its doorsteps.
In case it gives bad example to Russian slaves.
You need to explain why Sweden and Finland decided to join NATO?
Clearly because of peaceful intentions of Russia?
That was the point of the ‘guarantees’ given by America, Europe and Russia to Ukraine in 2008 – neutrality and no nuclear weapons in return for total respect for its independence and territorial integrity. Then Russia invaded and took Crimea, and the other guarantors did – precisely nothing! So signalling that further territorial grabs by Russia would also be ignored. Hence last year’s attempted annexation and the bloody mess we’re all having to support now.
Ukraine must be enabled to return its borders to pre-2022, preferably pre-2014. Russia AND NATO must pay for clearing up and rebuilding, and Ukraine must have guarantees with real commitment and consequences. ‘Membership’ is far less important: although it would give Ukraine a say in NATO, it would also require its commitment to defend all other NATO members, which is hardly the point at the moment.
Utter nonsense.
Russia started this war because it does not want independent, democratic Ukraine on its doorsteps.
In case it gives bad example to Russian slaves.
You need to explain why Sweden and Finland decided to join NATO?
Clearly because of peaceful intentions of Russia?
That was the point of the ‘guarantees’ given by America, Europe and Russia to Ukraine in 2008 – neutrality and no nuclear weapons in return for total respect for its independence and territorial integrity. Then Russia invaded and took Crimea, and the other guarantors did – precisely nothing! So signalling that further territorial grabs by Russia would also be ignored. Hence last year’s attempted annexation and the bloody mess we’re all having to support now.
Ukraine must be enabled to return its borders to pre-2022, preferably pre-2014. Russia AND NATO must pay for clearing up and rebuilding, and Ukraine must have guarantees with real commitment and consequences. ‘Membership’ is far less important: although it would give Ukraine a say in NATO, it would also require its commitment to defend all other NATO members, which is hardly the point at the moment.
Do you mean all the Mexicans and other South Americans who invade USA southern border at the moment?
Can you tell us why don’t they try to emigrate to Russia or China or Cuba or Venezuela?
Do you mean all the Mexicans and other South Americans who invade USA southern border at the moment?
Can you tell us why don’t they try to emigrate to Russia or China or Cuba or Venezuela?
Usual arguments of appeasers.
It was the same in 1938 with Munich.
Chamberlain was bringing peace for eternity because Mr Hitler signed some paper.
Then by 1940 bombs were falling on London.
Appeasers like you will always argue that if we allow some other people to be killed, we will be safe.
Unfortunately history is against you.
The “history always repeats itself” argument is just as valid as the “history never repeats itself” argument. I stated that Russia will not invade a NATO country as it would not want a direct war with NATO. Comparing this with the arguments about Germany in the 1930s does not detract from its logic.
The “history always repeats itself” argument is just as valid as the “history never repeats itself” argument. I stated that Russia will not invade a NATO country as it would not want a direct war with NATO. Comparing this with the arguments about Germany in the 1930s does not detract from its logic.
The mind boggles.
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans, who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities.
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine?
The mind boggles. God help us all.
Inflation and economic turmoil was caused by the ludicrous COVID lockdowns and the massive Gov’t spending they unleashed, and Europe’s insane net-zero commitment. A recession was to be expected.
All Europe needs to do to reverse the economic impact of the war is to re-open its nuclear power plants, and authorize fracking.
A reasonable point to make. But I’d rather have a Russia on the other side of a buffer zone (aka Ukraine) than one right next to a NATO border. If someone in Russia freaks out at some point in the future, at least a buffer allows a breathing space in which to prevent armageddon.
Usual arguments of appeasers.
It was the same in 1938 with Munich.
Chamberlain was bringing peace for eternity because Mr Hitler signed some paper.
Then by 1940 bombs were falling on London.
Appeasers like you will always argue that if we allow some other people to be killed, we will be safe.
Unfortunately history is against you.
Paul Canon
10 months ago
I keep hearing that if we allow Russia to take over even a little part of Ukraine this will encourage them and will inevitably lead to the Russians invading the whole of Europe. This is not logical. Russia does not want a war with NATO (in the same way as NATO does not want an all-out war with Russia), and any further expansion beyond Ukraine inevitably leads to a war with NATO as – with the exception of Moldova and Belorussia, all Ukraine’s neighbours are NATO members. By trying to “save” Ukraine we are committing economic suicide: our runaway inflation stems from higher energy prices which are the consequence of cutting off Russia. On the other hand, a few (powerful) people are making a lot of money from this war, both in Russia and in the West. The US has hugely multiplied its profits from LNG exports to Europe, and weapons manufacturers are making a killing as Western governments pay for Ukraine’s weapons. We normal people in the meantime are being fleeced every time we go to the supermarket or to fill up our cars, and our public services are being cut back time after time as our schools and hospitals fall into disarray and disrepair.
I know I’ll get called a Russian Bot, an enemy sympathiser, a fifth columnist, Putin-lover or whatnot but the truth of it is simply that I believe governments should do what is best for their own people, and at the moment I don’t think supporting Ukraine is in the interest of any normal people in any Western European country.
Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Canon
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Thomas Fazi sinks lower and lower in his endless absurd “blame the Americans for everything” ideology.
The Yugoslavia (actually Serbia) bombing – we can argue about whether NATO should have been deployed “out of area and scope” and we can also debate argue the effects t
on Russian and Chinese attitudes, but it is pretty egregious of Mr Fazi to completely ignore the context for the Belgrade bombing. This was to get the Serbian government to reach a political agreement short of their maximalist nationalist aspirations. There had been large scale ethnic cleansing of the Albanian population by the Serbian government, following their earlier attempted war of aggression, massacres and human rights abuses against the Muslim population etc (Srebenica).
Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans, at least for a while, won the geopolitical contest and not the totalitarian Marxist-Leninist party-states of the Soviet Union and China. These between them were responsible for tens of millions of deaths. This could well have happened – they already dominated Eurasia, why not also Latin America and Africa?
We got more liberal more democratic societies, or relatively limited in scope short term dictatorships, not the complete elimination of all forms of dissent, entire classes of people, and private property along with vast concentration camps and constant state monitoring the population.
South Korea rather than North Korea in other words. It ought to be a no-brainer
Fazi’s juvenile analysis also completely ignores the growing split in US domestic politics in Ukraine. The Republican right are leery of involvement. It’s more nuanced than Fazi’s sixth form student analysis yet he continues to get published here.
The RAF dropped bombs on Christian civilians in Serbia in order to curry favour with oil producers in the Middle East. One of the most disgraceful episodes in our military history.
Talking to those in the British Army involved in Bosnia, it is interesting to note how the Serbs warned them of the coming upsurge in Islamic guerrilla and insugency warfare and attack throughout the west.. and Africa… Of course, they were spot on.
Utter nonsense. Serbians wanted greater Serbia and were pursuing genocidal policy against not just Muslim but Croatian (remember Vukovar?).
Croatians are, mostly, Catholic Christians and Serbians are Orthodox.
I travelled widely in this part of the world even under Communism and Serbians are like “Little Russians”. They believe that they should dominate and occupy others people lands.
Hungarians who i really like, are unfortunately, similar.
Talking to those in the British Army involved in Bosnia, it is interesting to note how the Serbs warned them of the coming upsurge in Islamic guerrilla and insugency warfare and attack throughout the west.. and Africa… Of course, they were spot on.
Utter nonsense. Serbians wanted greater Serbia and were pursuing genocidal policy against not just Muslim but Croatian (remember Vukovar?).
Croatians are, mostly, Catholic Christians and Serbians are Orthodox.
I travelled widely in this part of the world even under Communism and Serbians are like “Little Russians”. They believe that they should dominate and occupy others people lands.
Hungarians who i really like, are unfortunately, similar.
Thank God for some sanity here – I thought Unherd was meant for informed, educated discussion and debate. What next – “How Trump is saving American Democracy”? I expect that’d bring covert Unherd-reading MAGA sympathisers out in force – just like Fazi’s Putin-excusing ramble seems to have done
Well its beyond doubt that Biden and Democrats are not! In recent history, I’ve never come across such a bunch of totalitarians as are in power in the USA at the moment. So who is ‘saving American Democracy’?
Well its beyond doubt that Biden and Democrats are not! In recent history, I’ve never come across such a bunch of totalitarians as are in power in the USA at the moment. So who is ‘saving American Democracy’?
“Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans”
You know, this article doesn’t mention the cold war at all. His complaint is about the shift in Nato that occurred starting in 1999 when it started to get used by the US in an offensive role. Nato is strictly a defensive pact.
As an American, I don’t see his pointing out the misuse of this alliance in a way that seems to enrich what President Eisenhower warned us of in the US military industrial complex. Which we could note that of all the billions of taxpayer dollars pledged to Ukraine most of it goes through the US defense industry.
So it’s no surprise that it’s reported that 21 of the 46 signatories to a new open letter supporting Ukraine’s NATO bid “are associated with institutions with financial ties to the weapons industry.” That’s not noble or good in any sense, it’s about the money. Extending or expanding the war for thier own profits!
Anyway, back to the topic… what you’ve done Andrew is build what is called a “Straw man”. When you recast the other persons argument into something they’re not even saying, only you make it a weaker argument that you can knock down.
Then as you do so you insult him as “sinking lower” into “absurdity”… We have a cadre of fellow insulters following in your footsteps calling him a mere “student” not deserving publishing, questioning his sanity, claming he is uninformed, uneducated, Putin-excusing…
When actually none of that’s’ true. Another word for a ‘straw man” argument is a “lie”. The others that followed just seem angry, and really have nothing but personal insults. It seems clear to me that under Joe Biden, one of the most corrupt presidents ever, Washington has been making use of Europe against their own interests. For example those sanctions have hurt Europian economies more than they hurt Russia. That’s a fact that is provable. That’s not “Putin supporting”, those are just facts. Like as in, the truth. Do you know what the truth is, or like Bill Clinton are you still trying to determine what the meaning of “is” is?
So myopic.
There was also large-scale ethnic cleansing and ethnic conflict in the Donbas, just as there was in Kosovo.
So it was OK for NATO to bomb Serbia in response to ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, but it’s NOT OK for Russia to bomb Ukraine in response to ethnic cleansing in Ukraine.
You can see why the rest of the world is siding with Russia . . .
You are talking utter rubbish.
There was Ukrainian independence referendum in 1991.
Over 83% of population of Donbas and Luhansk voted to be part of independent Ukraine.
Even Crimea voted 54% for that.
Just because small minority in these regions wanted to be part of Russia and started civil war with help of Russian to this end, does not mean they should be allowed to succeed.
You are either Russian stooge or in Lenins word “usefull idiot”.
Take your pick.
Ethnic cleansing, are you out of your mind? Eastern Ukraine including Mariupol, Severodonetsk, Bakhmut and other now occupied places were open to public until February 2022, you could have visited and seen the “cleansing” with your own eyes. Completely Russian-speaking cities that were actually retaken from the separatists with very little bloodshed and no destruction until Russia came to “liberate” them. Check the casualties stats for the last years in Donbass.. and finally stop operating with “facts” for which there’s even hardly any fabricated “evidence”, it’s just so cuz Putin says so, right? Meanwhile, any full transcript of Putin’s speeches will show you what he thinks and wants to do with the Ukrainian nation (which is both Ukrainian and Russian speaking). Bloody idiots, what has Unherd become..
You are talking utter rubbish.
There was Ukrainian independence referendum in 1991.
Over 83% of population of Donbas and Luhansk voted to be part of independent Ukraine.
Even Crimea voted 54% for that.
Just because small minority in these regions wanted to be part of Russia and started civil war with help of Russian to this end, does not mean they should be allowed to succeed.
You are either Russian stooge or in Lenins word “usefull idiot”.
Take your pick.
Ethnic cleansing, are you out of your mind? Eastern Ukraine including Mariupol, Severodonetsk, Bakhmut and other now occupied places were open to public until February 2022, you could have visited and seen the “cleansing” with your own eyes. Completely Russian-speaking cities that were actually retaken from the separatists with very little bloodshed and no destruction until Russia came to “liberate” them. Check the casualties stats for the last years in Donbass.. and finally stop operating with “facts” for which there’s even hardly any fabricated “evidence”, it’s just so cuz Putin says so, right? Meanwhile, any full transcript of Putin’s speeches will show you what he thinks and wants to do with the Ukrainian nation (which is both Ukrainian and Russian speaking). Bloody idiots, what has Unherd become..
Exactly.
His usual complain is about “aggressive expansion of NATO” as if former Russian slaves needed any persuading to join NATO at first opportunity.
Even deluded nations like Sweden and Finland realised that the only realistic protection against genocidal Russian imperialism is membership of NATO.
His comments about pretended equivalence of NATO members is another “state the obvious”.
Of course USA is dominant partner because it provides great majority of NATO military capabilities.
Where would we be now if Russia appeasers like Germany and France were deciding policy.
His comments about China are just laughable.
Can he explain why world dominated by China is in the West interest?
Of course he can not.
So another moronic article by dictators stooge.
Fazi the Naz*
Fisher might think he is a mature adult capable of independent thought. However he represents the most herded of UnHerd readers along with his fellow up-tickers.
A real believer – a mind formed by the propaganda spewed out daily in the MSM. All he is now capable of is regurgitation of guff spewed out by the warmongering Military Industrial Complex and NATO and the thugs in the 47th Brigade.
Fazi’s juvenile analysis also completely ignores the growing split in US domestic politics in Ukraine. The Republican right are leery of involvement. It’s more nuanced than Fazi’s sixth form student analysis yet he continues to get published here.
The RAF dropped bombs on Christian civilians in Serbia in order to curry favour with oil producers in the Middle East. One of the most disgraceful episodes in our military history.
Thank God for some sanity here – I thought Unherd was meant for informed, educated discussion and debate. What next – “How Trump is saving American Democracy”? I expect that’d bring covert Unherd-reading MAGA sympathisers out in force – just like Fazi’s Putin-excusing ramble seems to have done
“Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans”
You know, this article doesn’t mention the cold war at all. His complaint is about the shift in Nato that occurred starting in 1999 when it started to get used by the US in an offensive role. Nato is strictly a defensive pact.
As an American, I don’t see his pointing out the misuse of this alliance in a way that seems to enrich what President Eisenhower warned us of in the US military industrial complex. Which we could note that of all the billions of taxpayer dollars pledged to Ukraine most of it goes through the US defense industry.
So it’s no surprise that it’s reported that 21 of the 46 signatories to a new open letter supporting Ukraine’s NATO bid “are associated with institutions with financial ties to the weapons industry.” That’s not noble or good in any sense, it’s about the money. Extending or expanding the war for thier own profits!
Anyway, back to the topic… what you’ve done Andrew is build what is called a “Straw man”. When you recast the other persons argument into something they’re not even saying, only you make it a weaker argument that you can knock down.
Then as you do so you insult him as “sinking lower” into “absurdity”… We have a cadre of fellow insulters following in your footsteps calling him a mere “student” not deserving publishing, questioning his sanity, claming he is uninformed, uneducated, Putin-excusing…
When actually none of that’s’ true. Another word for a ‘straw man” argument is a “lie”. The others that followed just seem angry, and really have nothing but personal insults. It seems clear to me that under Joe Biden, one of the most corrupt presidents ever, Washington has been making use of Europe against their own interests. For example those sanctions have hurt Europian economies more than they hurt Russia. That’s a fact that is provable. That’s not “Putin supporting”, those are just facts. Like as in, the truth. Do you know what the truth is, or like Bill Clinton are you still trying to determine what the meaning of “is” is?
So myopic.
There was also large-scale ethnic cleansing and ethnic conflict in the Donbas, just as there was in Kosovo.
So it was OK for NATO to bomb Serbia in response to ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, but it’s NOT OK for Russia to bomb Ukraine in response to ethnic cleansing in Ukraine.
You can see why the rest of the world is siding with Russia . . .
Exactly.
His usual complain is about “aggressive expansion of NATO” as if former Russian slaves needed any persuading to join NATO at first opportunity.
Even deluded nations like Sweden and Finland realised that the only realistic protection against genocidal Russian imperialism is membership of NATO.
His comments about pretended equivalence of NATO members is another “state the obvious”.
Of course USA is dominant partner because it provides great majority of NATO military capabilities.
Where would we be now if Russia appeasers like Germany and France were deciding policy.
His comments about China are just laughable.
Can he explain why world dominated by China is in the West interest?
Of course he can not.
So another moronic article by dictators stooge.
Fazi the Naz*
Fisher might think he is a mature adult capable of independent thought. However he represents the most herded of UnHerd readers along with his fellow up-tickers.
A real believer – a mind formed by the propaganda spewed out daily in the MSM. All he is now capable of is regurgitation of guff spewed out by the warmongering Military Industrial Complex and NATO and the thugs in the 47th Brigade.
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Thomas Fazi sinks lower and lower in his endless absurd “blame the Americans for everything” ideology.
The Yugoslavia (actually Serbia) bombing – we can argue about whether NATO should have been deployed “out of area and scope” and we can also debate argue the effects t
on Russian and Chinese attitudes, but it is pretty egregious of Mr Fazi to completely ignore the context for the Belgrade bombing. This was to get the Serbian government to reach a political agreement short of their maximalist nationalist aspirations. There had been large scale ethnic cleansing of the Albanian population by the Serbian government, following their earlier attempted war of aggression, massacres and human rights abuses against the Muslim population etc (Srebenica).
Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans, at least for a while, won the geopolitical contest and not the totalitarian Marxist-Leninist party-states of the Soviet Union and China. These between them were responsible for tens of millions of deaths. This could well have happened – they already dominated Eurasia, why not also Latin America and Africa?
We got more liberal more democratic societies, or relatively limited in scope short term dictatorships, not the complete elimination of all forms of dissent, entire classes of people, and private property along with vast concentration camps and constant state monitoring the population.
South Korea rather than North Korea in other words. It ought to be a no-brainer
Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew Fisher
David Harris
10 months ago
“some are convinced that Nato provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by aggressively expanding eastward”
Er, I think you’ll find that those countries asked to join to avoid Russian aggression. Ukraine didn’t and this is the result.
Simple really.
But not to Russian stooges and Lenin useful idiots on here and elsewhere.
David Harris
10 months ago
“some are convinced that Nato provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by aggressively expanding eastward”
Er, I think you’ll find that those countries asked to join to avoid Russian aggression. Ukraine didn’t and this is the result.
Liam F
10 months ago
Hilarious. Thomas , you can’t blame a dog for barking – militarism is what NATO is set up to do. And I for one am thankful for that.
George Orwell put it well “a pacifist only exists because someone else chose to fight on their behalf”
And as Napoleon said: “The World is not ruined by the wickedness of the wicked, but by the weakness of the good.”
Liam F
10 months ago
Hilarious. Thomas , you can’t blame a dog for barking – militarism is what NATO is set up to do. And I for one am thankful for that.
George Orwell put it well “a pacifist only exists because someone else chose to fight on their behalf”
martin logan
10 months ago
“War is peace, and peace is war.”
Fascinating insight into Fazi’s worship of force, and his unique definition that “war” can only be made by “the West.”
So, by definition, anything Russia does is “not war.” Putin’s 20-year build up of the Russian military, and NATO’s relative decline, is of no consequence. Neither is Putin’s invasion.
Because only NATO wages “war.”
Indeed, for Fazi–and Mearsheimer–the fates of individuals are of no consequence, just lofty thoughts about “Realism.”
What was “real,” however, about the “illegal” NATO war against Milosevic’s Serbia was that he had started ethnic cleansing of Kosovars from their own nation. Indeed, earlier, it was a horrific strike on a market in Sarajevo that made a very reluctant Bill Clinton intervene to stop the war in Bosnia. That was after several years of a brutal siege. The bombed out high-rises in both Bosnia and Ukraine look exactly the same.
And the only thing that is “real” about the present conflict is that Russia openly practices genocide against Ukraine and all Ukrainians. That has been Putin’s avowed aim since 2014: destroy Ukraine as a nation. To do so, his minions have to rape torture and kill as many Ukrainians as possible.
So for Fazi, “war” is only that which is inflicted on Russia by the West when Putin attacks other nations. “War” is when Russia is constrained by foolish western laws, like respect for borders and human life.
So, you see? Only NATO wages war!
Big Brother and Stalin look down on Fazi.
And smile approvingly…
martin logan
10 months ago
“War is peace, and peace is war.”
Fascinating insight into Fazi’s worship of force, and his unique definition that “war” can only be made by “the West.”
So, by definition, anything Russia does is “not war.” Putin’s 20-year build up of the Russian military, and NATO’s relative decline, is of no consequence. Neither is Putin’s invasion.
Because only NATO wages “war.”
Indeed, for Fazi–and Mearsheimer–the fates of individuals are of no consequence, just lofty thoughts about “Realism.”
What was “real,” however, about the “illegal” NATO war against Milosevic’s Serbia was that he had started ethnic cleansing of Kosovars from their own nation. Indeed, earlier, it was a horrific strike on a market in Sarajevo that made a very reluctant Bill Clinton intervene to stop the war in Bosnia. That was after several years of a brutal siege. The bombed out high-rises in both Bosnia and Ukraine look exactly the same.
And the only thing that is “real” about the present conflict is that Russia openly practices genocide against Ukraine and all Ukrainians. That has been Putin’s avowed aim since 2014: destroy Ukraine as a nation. To do so, his minions have to rape torture and kill as many Ukrainians as possible.
So for Fazi, “war” is only that which is inflicted on Russia by the West when Putin attacks other nations. “War” is when Russia is constrained by foolish western laws, like respect for borders and human life.
So, you see? Only NATO wages war!
Big Brother and Stalin look down on Fazi.
And smile approvingly…
Ben Jones
10 months ago
That’s right Thomas, keep on blaming the defender and not the aggressor.
Are we still pretending that Ukraine itself didn’t spend 8 years shelling citizens in the East of the country? I don’t condone Russia or its actions, but the desperate one-sided perception in the West, particularly the UK vassal is a little strange and behind the curve.
“As the saying goes, if all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail ”
Who used the hammer first, precisely because the whole world looks like his nail.Putrid Putin.To Thomas, i say….. Grow Up.
“As the saying goes, if all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail ”
Who used the hammer first, precisely because the whole world looks like his nail.Putrid Putin.To Thomas, i say….. Grow Up.
The only reason there was fighting in the Donbas was that Russia invaded in 2014. There was no “civil war” until Russian “little green men” (backed by artillery fire from across the border) invaded.
The only reason there was fighting in the Donbas was that Russia invaded in 2014. There was no “civil war” until Russian “little green men” (backed by artillery fire from across the border) invaded.
Are we still pretending that Ukraine itself didn’t spend 8 years shelling citizens in the East of the country? I don’t condone Russia or its actions, but the desperate one-sided perception in the West, particularly the UK vassal is a little strange and behind the curve.
Ben Jones
10 months ago
That’s right Thomas, keep on blaming the defender and not the aggressor.
Arthur G
10 months ago
No country can join NATO while its engaged in an active war, That’s part of the rules.
No country can join NATO while its engaged in an active war, That’s part of the rules.
Billy Bob
10 months ago
What is the point of this article? I fail to see what it is trying to say, except that Fazi doesn’t like NATO.
Also what peace will there be for Ukraine unless it can prove that it can at least hold Russia to a stalemate? There can be no negotiation unless you have power to back it up
Billy Bob
10 months ago
What is the point of this article? I fail to see what it is trying to say, except that Fazi doesn’t like NATO.
Also what peace will there be for Ukraine unless it can prove that it can at least hold Russia to a stalemate? There can be no negotiation unless you have power to back it up
Steve White
10 months ago
As much as I despise the thoroughly Davos little Pepé Le Pew Macron, he has always had this Gallic centric sense of rebellion against the Anglo (Mainly US) controlled Nato. He was even balking at escalation until the (UK psyop, color revolution?) suspiciously timed Antifa like rebellion threated to take him down. He was also right, back when he declared Nato to be “brain dead”.
The self-willed all-powerful US, and its ultra-aggressive representatives in Europe were able to fill that brain dead corpse with a will it directed, and the corrupt squishy little EU governance were sold the modern Davos inspired transformation of Ukraine into the digital “eat ze bugs” nation where people would own nothing (Blackrock and other Western oligarchs will) and be miserable happy.
Of course, what has been behind all of this other than intense amounts of stupidity and incompetence is the real driving force. Hubris! They all simply (to our own peril) underestimated the Russians. Just like Hitler did. At every turn we have been told (lied to) that this or that would collapse them, that this or that magic weapon would be a “game changer”. That they were collapsing from the inside. That Putin had terminal cancer. That history in Ukraine only started in 2014 when a madman who was simultaneously using an incompetent, undersize, underpowered, ineffective military force was also going to run that joke of a military across all of Europe if he weren’t stopped at all costs in Ukraine.
Meanwhile like some sort of trick gun that shoots the person that aims at another and pulls the trigger, the EU nations have been murdering their own economies. Time has worked against everything Washington set out to do. No amount of blowing up pipelines or dams and blaming the Ork King fulfilled anything except to harm more of the world and the humans living in it.
Now they’re justifying cluster munitions, because as Joe Biden declared they’re “out of ammo”… Oh, ok… So this is another narrative collapse. We’ve been being lied to. We’ve been told that Ukraine was doing great, and the Russians were the ones running out… Only the Spring (now summer) offensive with all the Western super-hardware, and Western trained forces was going to be the latest “game changer”.
Lie to me once, shame on you, lie to me 8 to 10 more times, and I believe it, I must be a moron…. Or a paid federal agent online to spread lies. What all of this is, in the end is Stupidity merged with Hubris into something that defies all the laws of nature and truth. Which, that’s always not long for this world.
The world doesn’t operate on lies and stupidity. All of that wears out. When people figure out that everything is a lie, narcissists always have to move on to their next victims, and that is what our corrupt Western leaders and the controlled media does. They will simply move on.
The next victims appear to be Taiwanese, who sadly happen to have magically got a set of Pro-Washington agenda leaders over them until 2024, when they will be swept out of office by some leaders who don’t have the same goals. It’s amazing how all over the world people get in power that make all these commitments that don’t reflect the will of the vast majority of citizens who live under them…
Indeed, the people who actually invade are never the victimizers.
Only the people who try to help defend them.
“Peace is war, and war is peace.”
Makes perfect sense to me.
Brilliant, thanks Steve. The Undead Corpse that is the American president was also put in place, along with his neocon hacks and Iraq War has-been advisors, to “rebuild” a anachronistic coalition that Trump the Maniac had dared to question. Trump’s neanderthalic sensibilities were right for once: NATO is but an Atlanticist pipe dream, built on the treasure, blood and at one time good-will of the American people, who mostly have no clue how corrupt and epically mismanaged it has always been.
Add to this that Undead Prez Biden is engaged in massive money laundering operations in Ukraine, and has been for years (hence the huge cover-up before the election) and something Just. Isn’t. Right. about all this.
I’m predicting nothing good in the next 5-10 years, for regular Americans, but most especially for the elites whom we all toil for. By then, it will be too late. But pox on them all.
I have read in many different settings and topics that ‘trump was right for once’. In fact he seems to have been right most the time. I have never read, not once, ‘trump was wrong’ even when it came to Covid and Intermectin.
I just cannot with Trump, man. He has no regard for democratic norms, and although right a few times, was dead wrong on the voting fraud stuff, which caused much chaos in America. Look, I despise Biden, I think he is a horrible person and probably the most corrupt president the U.S. has ever had, but we can certainly do better than him OR Trump.
I just cannot with Trump, man. He has no regard for democratic norms, and although right a few times, was dead wrong on the voting fraud stuff, which caused much chaos in America. Look, I despise Biden, I think he is a horrible person and probably the most corrupt president the U.S. has ever had, but we can certainly do better than him OR Trump.
I have read in many different settings and topics that ‘trump was right for once’. In fact he seems to have been right most the time. I have never read, not once, ‘trump was wrong’ even when it came to Covid and Intermectin.
Do you mean all the people of great democracies of China and Russia?
In the West you are free to go there and join Snowden.
You sound like you would really fit in.
Indeed, the people who actually invade are never the victimizers.
Only the people who try to help defend them.
“Peace is war, and war is peace.”
Makes perfect sense to me.
Brilliant, thanks Steve. The Undead Corpse that is the American president was also put in place, along with his neocon hacks and Iraq War has-been advisors, to “rebuild” a anachronistic coalition that Trump the Maniac had dared to question. Trump’s neanderthalic sensibilities were right for once: NATO is but an Atlanticist pipe dream, built on the treasure, blood and at one time good-will of the American people, who mostly have no clue how corrupt and epically mismanaged it has always been.
Add to this that Undead Prez Biden is engaged in massive money laundering operations in Ukraine, and has been for years (hence the huge cover-up before the election) and something Just. Isn’t. Right. about all this.
I’m predicting nothing good in the next 5-10 years, for regular Americans, but most especially for the elites whom we all toil for. By then, it will be too late. But pox on them all.
Do you mean all the people of great democracies of China and Russia?
In the West you are free to go there and join Snowden.
You sound like you would really fit in.
As much as I despise the thoroughly Davos little Pepé Le Pew Macron, he has always had this Gallic centric sense of rebellion against the Anglo (Mainly US) controlled Nato. He was even balking at escalation until the (UK psyop, color revolution?) suspiciously timed Antifa like rebellion threated to take him down. He was also right, back when he declared Nato to be “brain dead”.
The self-willed all-powerful US, and its ultra-aggressive representatives in Europe were able to fill that brain dead corpse with a will it directed, and the corrupt squishy little EU governance were sold the modern Davos inspired transformation of Ukraine into the digital “eat ze bugs” nation where people would own nothing (Blackrock and other Western oligarchs will) and be miserable happy.
Of course, what has been behind all of this other than intense amounts of stupidity and incompetence is the real driving force. Hubris! They all simply (to our own peril) underestimated the Russians. Just like Hitler did. At every turn we have been told (lied to) that this or that would collapse them, that this or that magic weapon would be a “game changer”. That they were collapsing from the inside. That Putin had terminal cancer. That history in Ukraine only started in 2014 when a madman who was simultaneously using an incompetent, undersize, underpowered, ineffective military force was also going to run that joke of a military across all of Europe if he weren’t stopped at all costs in Ukraine.
Meanwhile like some sort of trick gun that shoots the person that aims at another and pulls the trigger, the EU nations have been murdering their own economies. Time has worked against everything Washington set out to do. No amount of blowing up pipelines or dams and blaming the Ork King fulfilled anything except to harm more of the world and the humans living in it.
Now they’re justifying cluster munitions, because as Joe Biden declared they’re “out of ammo”… Oh, ok… So this is another narrative collapse. We’ve been being lied to. We’ve been told that Ukraine was doing great, and the Russians were the ones running out… Only the Spring (now summer) offensive with all the Western super-hardware, and Western trained forces was going to be the latest “game changer”.
Lie to me once, shame on you, lie to me 8 to 10 more times, and I believe it, I must be a moron…. Or a paid federal agent online to spread lies. What all of this is, in the end is Stupidity merged with Hubris into something that defies all the laws of nature and truth. Which, that’s always not long for this world.
The world doesn’t operate on lies and stupidity. All of that wears out. When people figure out that everything is a lie, narcissists always have to move on to their next victims, and that is what our corrupt Western leaders and the controlled media does. They will simply move on.
The next victims appear to be Taiwanese, who sadly happen to have magically got a set of Pro-Washington agenda leaders over them until 2024, when they will be swept out of office by some leaders who don’t have the same goals. It’s amazing how all over the world people get in power that make all these commitments that don’t reflect the will of the vast majority of citizens who live under them…
Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
polidori redux
10 months ago
It would be a brave, or foolish, nation that trusts its defence to NATO. You can trust only in yourself. Ask a Pole.
To be fair disarmament of Germany and appeasement of Russia were decision of Russian stooge, Angela Merkel.
If you recall women leaders around the world, including Merkel, were always used as examples of proper leadership.
Most of them are now gone with not exactly enhanced reputation.
Scottish smelly fish or NZ idiot anyone?
Oh dear! Cherchez la femme? Because it was always so much better when all positions of power were reserved for men?
Oh, wait! Nope! There was appeasement, belligerence, miscalculation and penny-pinching when the men had sole charge too. Never mind; I’m sure you can imagine that there was always a woman behind these problems too.
Oh dear! Cherchez la femme? Because it was always so much better when all positions of power were reserved for men?
Oh, wait! Nope! There was appeasement, belligerence, miscalculation and penny-pinching when the men had sole charge too. Never mind; I’m sure you can imagine that there was always a woman behind these problems too.
To be fair disarmament of Germany and appeasement of Russia were decision of Russian stooge, Angela Merkel.
If you recall women leaders around the world, including Merkel, were always used as examples of proper leadership.
Most of them are now gone with not exactly enhanced reputation.
Scottish smelly fish or NZ idiot anyone?
You’d be certified if you trust your defence to Ursula. Just ask the German army.
polidori redux
10 months ago
It would be a brave, or foolish, nation that trusts its defence to NATO. You can trust only in yourself. Ask a Pole.
Last edited 10 months ago by polidori redux
William Shaw
10 months ago
“the US, though it has complained often about inequitable burden sharing, has never demanded a dramatic increase in European military power”
I seem to remember Trump being pretty blunt and demanding.
Exactly, but idiots like Fazi were probably writing articles criticising bad Orange man.
Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew F
William Shaw
10 months ago
“the US, though it has complained often about inequitable burden sharing, has never demanded a dramatic increase in European military power”
I seem to remember Trump being pretty blunt and demanding.
Andrew Boughton
10 months ago
Another excellent piece, Thomas. The people who accept your view are many, even though most have political views very different than yours. Most are straight-A classic – not populist – conservative and anti-communist. Many are influential, loyal Americans, from Ted Galen Carpenter at the Cato Institute to the late Richard Nixon and 90% of the true architects ofcUS Cold War policy. Opposed are the Democrat war hawks, which is ironic, and their cheer squads here who have no understanding of how this war really came about. They don’t seem to care. It’s all about righteous slaughter.
Exactly. What’s mind-blowing to me, every single day, is that the “progressive” “peace” caucus in the Democrat Party, many candidates who ran on platforms opposed to our forever wars and wars of liberal interventionism, are ALL IN on this horror and slaughter. The whole lot of them, even The Squad. As someone who still loosely clings to some semblance of leftism (at the least the remanants of the Old Left, which has been shattered in America) this is an appalling state of affairs, which has created a vacuum, with no effective bulwark against the warmongering in the Democratic Party. Even Barbara Lee, the lone voice against the disastrous invasion of Afghanistan, is all in.
Many things at play here–but many people like me are utterly politically homeless, especially those of us who opposed the Covid mania, which was sponsored by the biodefense industrial complex here in America. We’ve found friendly alliances with libertarians and American Conservative magazine type conservatives. It’s a broad coalition of disenfranchised leftists who are mostly massing behind RFK Jr. or Cornel West at this point. But I think, and hope, that we will become a potent force again some day. The liberal-left in America has become completely compromised, and is only a synthetic, fake thing that is actually very corporate, warmongering and intensely opposed to different viewpoints, hence the censorship. Many of these people are viciously opposed to Fazi, who I actually believe is one of the real, true leftists remaining right now.
Exactly. What’s mind-blowing to me, every single day, is that the “progressive” “peace” caucus in the Democrat Party, many candidates who ran on platforms opposed to our forever wars and wars of liberal interventionism, are ALL IN on this horror and slaughter. The whole lot of them, even The Squad. As someone who still loosely clings to some semblance of leftism (at the least the remanants of the Old Left, which has been shattered in America) this is an appalling state of affairs, which has created a vacuum, with no effective bulwark against the warmongering in the Democratic Party. Even Barbara Lee, the lone voice against the disastrous invasion of Afghanistan, is all in.
Many things at play here–but many people like me are utterly politically homeless, especially those of us who opposed the Covid mania, which was sponsored by the biodefense industrial complex here in America. We’ve found friendly alliances with libertarians and American Conservative magazine type conservatives. It’s a broad coalition of disenfranchised leftists who are mostly massing behind RFK Jr. or Cornel West at this point. But I think, and hope, that we will become a potent force again some day. The liberal-left in America has become completely compromised, and is only a synthetic, fake thing that is actually very corporate, warmongering and intensely opposed to different viewpoints, hence the censorship. Many of these people are viciously opposed to Fazi, who I actually believe is one of the real, true leftists remaining right now.
Andrew Boughton
10 months ago
Another excellent piece, Thomas. The people who accept your view are many, even though most have political views very different than yours. Most are straight-A classic – not populist – conservative and anti-communist. Many are influential, loyal Americans, from Ted Galen Carpenter at the Cato Institute to the late Richard Nixon and 90% of the true architects ofcUS Cold War policy. Opposed are the Democrat war hawks, which is ironic, and their cheer squads here who have no understanding of how this war really came about. They don’t seem to care. It’s all about righteous slaughter.
Matty D
10 months ago
Russia launched an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, to deflect attention from growing unrest in Russia over things such as pensions.NATO bombed Serbia to stop it ethnically cleansing KosovarsNo ex Soviet Union country that joined NATO has been attacked by Russia. Most ex Soviet Union countries that didn’t join NATO have either been invaded (Georgia/ Ukraine) or subject to interference (Belarus, Kazakstan) or had Russia inspired civil wars (Moldvoa) or Russian supported wars (Armienia)NATO is a force for peace. Russia is a force for war.
Yes, and NATO is run by out of touch generals and Atlanticists in the U.S. who see this as a massive money laundering operation for the “defense” industry. Open your eyes, brother. The U.S’s stake in this is for and by the corrupt elites and their minions. And, sadly, the progressive left are the water carriers for this horror. The mind boggles.
Yes, and NATO is run by out of touch generals and Atlanticists in the U.S. who see this as a massive money laundering operation for the “defense” industry. Open your eyes, brother. The U.S’s stake in this is for and by the corrupt elites and their minions. And, sadly, the progressive left are the water carriers for this horror. The mind boggles.
Matty D
10 months ago
Russia launched an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, to deflect attention from growing unrest in Russia over things such as pensions.NATO bombed Serbia to stop it ethnically cleansing KosovarsNo ex Soviet Union country that joined NATO has been attacked by Russia. Most ex Soviet Union countries that didn’t join NATO have either been invaded (Georgia/ Ukraine) or subject to interference (Belarus, Kazakstan) or had Russia inspired civil wars (Moldvoa) or Russian supported wars (Armienia)NATO is a force for peace. Russia is a force for war.
Rachel Taylor
10 months ago
The logic here is so poor, and so obviously poor, that I could not read beyond half way. It is a catalogue of invalid assumptions and illogical conclusions.
Perhaps the author could do better by simply saying what he wants to happen. Russia to defeat Ukraine, and Germany to resume buying gas and selling Mercedes? Is that the idea?
Yes.
Apart from small details like genocide of Ukrainians.
Disgusting Russia stooges on here either don’t know or don’t care that it was done to Ukrainians in the 30s and Poles in the 1940.
Yes.
Apart from small details like genocide of Ukrainians.
Disgusting Russia stooges on here either don’t know or don’t care that it was done to Ukrainians in the 30s and Poles in the 1940.
Rachel Taylor
10 months ago
The logic here is so poor, and so obviously poor, that I could not read beyond half way. It is a catalogue of invalid assumptions and illogical conclusions.
Perhaps the author could do better by simply saying what he wants to happen. Russia to defeat Ukraine, and Germany to resume buying gas and selling Mercedes? Is that the idea?
Michael Davis
10 months ago
Oh dear
one decent article and you’re back to talking twaddle
Oh dear, when are the Brits going to man up and actually offer a stable security arrangement for Europe, instead of relying on your former colonies’ blood and treasure?
Oh dear, when are the Brits going to man up and actually offer a stable security arrangement for Europe, instead of relying on your former colonies’ blood and treasure?
Michael Davis
10 months ago
Oh dear
one decent article and you’re back to talking twaddle
M F
10 months ago
Note to Thomas Fazi and others: Having a bullying ultra-nationalist dictatorship such as the Putin regime as a neighbour clearly makes the attraction of membership of an organisation such as NATO obvious – or at least it should do. Presumably Finland and Sweden are now also guilty of provoking a legitimate Russian invasion by also becoming NATO members, their resistance to which would no doubt also be condemned as an “Obstacle to Peace”?
The only such “Obstacle to Peace” at present is Vladimir Putin’s indifference to human suffering in launching and doubling down on a war of conquest in order to gain control of a democratic neighbour who refused to do his bidding. It is also a little late for hand wringing over the use of cluster munitions in Ukraine after the Russians have been using these and virtually any other non-nuclear means since day one, and have mined and booby trapped occupied Ukrainian territory as a matter of course. Their use of indiscriminate rocket launched mining systems to slow the current Ukrainian counteroffensive being a perfect example.
Pompous denunciations of Jens Stoltenberg from Paul Keating are unsurprising as his world view, particularly where China and Russia are concerned, is seemingly stuck back in 1996, the last time he held office in Australia.
Mr Fazi is, however, is correct in questioning Ursula Von der Leyen’s suitability to be NATO’s next chief when the obvious choice was surely UK Minister of Defence and former army officer Ben Wallace, who has shown a clear headed and consistent approach to this war since the beginning, despite him (Mr. Fazi) shoehorning in yet another COVID conspiracy theory.
Please can we stop coming up with Ben Wallace as realistic candidate for Sec General of NATO?
That would require change of military structure, never mind being even more unrealistic after UK Brexit.
Uk general was always (if I recall) deputy commander of NATO.
Gen Secretary was from smaller European nation.
So even in this context Ursula bid for the post is bending the rules and should be vetoed by UK.
Please can we stop coming up with Ben Wallace as realistic candidate for Sec General of NATO?
That would require change of military structure, never mind being even more unrealistic after UK Brexit.
Uk general was always (if I recall) deputy commander of NATO.
Gen Secretary was from smaller European nation.
So even in this context Ursula bid for the post is bending the rules and should be vetoed by UK.
M F
10 months ago
Note to Thomas Fazi and others: Having a bullying ultra-nationalist dictatorship such as the Putin regime as a neighbour clearly makes the attraction of membership of an organisation such as NATO obvious – or at least it should do. Presumably Finland and Sweden are now also guilty of provoking a legitimate Russian invasion by also becoming NATO members, their resistance to which would no doubt also be condemned as an “Obstacle to Peace”?
The only such “Obstacle to Peace” at present is Vladimir Putin’s indifference to human suffering in launching and doubling down on a war of conquest in order to gain control of a democratic neighbour who refused to do his bidding. It is also a little late for hand wringing over the use of cluster munitions in Ukraine after the Russians have been using these and virtually any other non-nuclear means since day one, and have mined and booby trapped occupied Ukrainian territory as a matter of course. Their use of indiscriminate rocket launched mining systems to slow the current Ukrainian counteroffensive being a perfect example.
Pompous denunciations of Jens Stoltenberg from Paul Keating are unsurprising as his world view, particularly where China and Russia are concerned, is seemingly stuck back in 1996, the last time he held office in Australia.
Mr Fazi is, however, is correct in questioning Ursula Von der Leyen’s suitability to be NATO’s next chief when the obvious choice was surely UK Minister of Defence and former army officer Ben Wallace, who has shown a clear headed and consistent approach to this war since the beginning, despite him (Mr. Fazi) shoehorning in yet another COVID conspiracy theory.
S Smith
10 months ago
The mind boggles.
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans or our devastating economy and inflation, veterans who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities.
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine?
The mind boggles. God help us all.
Save your hand wringing.
Nukes are only good to deter other nukes. Russia and the US have lost many wars in the past.
Not once has either seriously considered using nukes to stave off defeat.
Indeed, the only time when anything like that was when the paranoid Soviets idiotically concluded that the Able Archer exercise was cover for an all out US attack.
Even then, they didn’t launch a first strike.
They may be stupid, but not crazy.
Oh well, nothing to worry about then. Your confidence in the resolve of leaders on both sides to forego the nuclear option is touching but wholly unrealistic. One of them probably doesn’t know the difference between the nuclear button and his alarm clock.
It isn’t “resolve,” it’s fear for their own and their nation’s safety. Unless you think PUtin is crazy.
Do you?
And if the best you can do is to use that hoary meme about Joe’s senility, you’re really saying you can’t think of a coherent response.
It isn’t “resolve,” it’s fear for their own and their nation’s safety. Unless you think PUtin is crazy.
Do you?
And if the best you can do is to use that hoary meme about Joe’s senility, you’re really saying you can’t think of a coherent response.
Oh well, nothing to worry about then. Your confidence in the resolve of leaders on both sides to forego the nuclear option is touching but wholly unrealistic. One of them probably doesn’t know the difference between the nuclear button and his alarm clock.
Save your hand wringing.
Nukes are only good to deter other nukes. Russia and the US have lost many wars in the past.
Not once has either seriously considered using nukes to stave off defeat.
Indeed, the only time when anything like that was when the paranoid Soviets idiotically concluded that the Able Archer exercise was cover for an all out US attack.
Even then, they didn’t launch a first strike.
They may be stupid, but not crazy.
S Smith
10 months ago
The mind boggles.
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans or our devastating economy and inflation, veterans who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities.
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine?
The mind boggles. God help us all.
Alan Thorpe
10 months ago
NATO isn’t working for peace and freedom and there isn’t a western government doing it either. I don’t know anybody who wants a war, so why is our government so enthusiastic about supporting one in Ukraine? The obvious answer is that the military-industrial complex controls the governments.
Yes, this is indeed true. The military-industrial complex controls nearly EVERY facet of American life, honestly–including the insane Covid response.
Alan Thorpe
10 months ago
NATO isn’t working for peace and freedom and there isn’t a western government doing it either. I don’t know anybody who wants a war, so why is our government so enthusiastic about supporting one in Ukraine? The obvious answer is that the military-industrial complex controls the governments.
Will Longfield
10 months ago
I agree with most of what Mr. Fazi has written. America and the west’s moral grandstanding after their invasions and bombings of so many other countries is outrageous and is seen as such by the rest of the world.
It should be understood that Russia does NOT want conflict with the West,. The goal of the Putin/Medvedev presidencies has been internally-focused – to renew and unify Russia. The invasion (limited and small scale, initially) was launched after all other options had been exhausted. If Russia had not struck in February 2022, Ukraine would have struck in March 2022 and overrun the separatist Donbas republics.
The question is – what happens now? There is NO sign that Russia has any inclination to suddenly give up and withdraw. To the contrary, it is building its strength and massing forces while the Ukrainian army exhausts itself in a hopeless and bloody “counteroffensive”, cheered on by the West.
The answer is that Russia, as it stands, will swallow all of Ukraine and it will effectively cease to exist. What incentive does Russia have to leave any of it, even Galicia, independent, if it will immediately become a NATO member, with forward deployments of American troops on Russia’s borders?
NATO is signing Ukraine’s death warrant.
So basically we should just stand back and allow genocide of whole nation?
Russia has track record here. Remember Holodomor or Katyn or genocide of Tatars in Crimea?
I am tired of posting here about results of Ukrainian independence referendum.
Over 83% in Donbass and Luhansk and 54% in Crimea.
There was never majority for this regions to be part of Russia.
You are just repeating Russian propaganda.
Obviously some people reply, referendums don’t matter, unless they are Russian ones after ethnic cleansing.
So basically we should just stand back and allow genocide of whole nation?
Russia has track record here. Remember Holodomor or Katyn or genocide of Tatars in Crimea?
I am tired of posting here about results of Ukrainian independence referendum.
Over 83% in Donbass and Luhansk and 54% in Crimea.
There was never majority for this regions to be part of Russia.
You are just repeating Russian propaganda.
Obviously some people reply, referendums don’t matter, unless they are Russian ones after ethnic cleansing.
Will Longfield
10 months ago
I agree with most of what Mr. Fazi has written. America and the west’s moral grandstanding after their invasions and bombings of so many other countries is outrageous and is seen as such by the rest of the world.
It should be understood that Russia does NOT want conflict with the West,. The goal of the Putin/Medvedev presidencies has been internally-focused – to renew and unify Russia. The invasion (limited and small scale, initially) was launched after all other options had been exhausted. If Russia had not struck in February 2022, Ukraine would have struck in March 2022 and overrun the separatist Donbas republics.
The question is – what happens now? There is NO sign that Russia has any inclination to suddenly give up and withdraw. To the contrary, it is building its strength and massing forces while the Ukrainian army exhausts itself in a hopeless and bloody “counteroffensive”, cheered on by the West.
The answer is that Russia, as it stands, will swallow all of Ukraine and it will effectively cease to exist. What incentive does Russia have to leave any of it, even Galicia, independent, if it will immediately become a NATO member, with forward deployments of American troops on Russia’s borders?
NATO is signing Ukraine’s death warrant.
Last edited 10 months ago by Will Longfield
Sean G
10 months ago
Thanks again, Thomas, for cutting through the crap with a well-cited analysis. As far as I have read, your detractors have failed to provide any clear counter-evidence.
Sean G
10 months ago
Thanks again, Thomas, for cutting through the crap with a well-cited analysis. As far as I have read, your detractors have failed to provide any clear counter-evidence.
Andrew Holmes
10 months ago
It delights me that Unherd publishes Mr Fazi. He states a perspective shared by many on the left. His clarity, for me, is the finest confirmation of the disingenuous selectivity of his arguments, and the comments point out the flaws.
Andrew Holmes
10 months ago
It delights me that Unherd publishes Mr Fazi. He states a perspective shared by many on the left. His clarity, for me, is the finest confirmation of the disingenuous selectivity of his arguments, and the comments point out the flaws.
Paolo Canonica
10 months ago
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Last edited 10 months ago by Paolo Canonica
Paolo Canonica
10 months ago
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Last edited 10 months ago by Paolo Canonica
Christopher Barclay
10 months ago
Russia is an imperialist nation, which under Putin wants to return to the pre-1917 borders. The Poles, Finns and the Baltic states are supporting Ukraine because they know they are next.
Christopher Barclay
10 months ago
Russia is an imperialist nation, which under Putin wants to return to the pre-1917 borders. The Poles, Finns and the Baltic states are supporting Ukraine because they know they are next.
Geoffrey Kolbe
10 months ago
“….How do we bring an end to the war?”
Having posed the question, Mr Fazi does not give an answer. As Mr Biden said, “We’re at war with Russia.” and we did not start this war. Russia has been waging a hybrid war against the West for decades in the belief that security is somehow a finite commodity and only by promoting insecurity in the West can Russia feel more secure.
The war now has a hot spot in Ukraine and may well escalate so that NATO becomes further embroiled. But what is the ‘off-ramp’ for such a scenario? Appeasing Russia by giving it half of Ukraine? As Winston Churchill said, “An appeaser is someone who feeds the crocodile in the hope that he will be eaten last!”
Sorry Mr Fazi, but Russia started this war (yes, it did) and the only way Russia is going to stop the war is by giving it no alternative but to take it tanks home and call it a day. Then, we need a big enough stick to make sure Russia’s tanks sit rusting in storage somewhere in Siberia rather than bullying some smaller nation into submitting to Russia’s will.
That stick is called NATO.
Geoffrey Kolbe
10 months ago
“….How do we bring an end to the war?”
Having posed the question, Mr Fazi does not give an answer. As Mr Biden said, “We’re at war with Russia.” and we did not start this war. Russia has been waging a hybrid war against the West for decades in the belief that security is somehow a finite commodity and only by promoting insecurity in the West can Russia feel more secure.
The war now has a hot spot in Ukraine and may well escalate so that NATO becomes further embroiled. But what is the ‘off-ramp’ for such a scenario? Appeasing Russia by giving it half of Ukraine? As Winston Churchill said, “An appeaser is someone who feeds the crocodile in the hope that he will be eaten last!”
Sorry Mr Fazi, but Russia started this war (yes, it did) and the only way Russia is going to stop the war is by giving it no alternative but to take it tanks home and call it a day. Then, we need a big enough stick to make sure Russia’s tanks sit rusting in storage somewhere in Siberia rather than bullying some smaller nation into submitting to Russia’s will.
That stick is called NATO.
Vern Hughes
10 months ago
Congratuations to Unherd for publishing this article. In my experience, the hardest area to get conservatives to do some serious thinking is in security matters. The attachment to alliances runs deep on the political Right, despite Thomas Jefferson’s wonderful mantra that might have defined conservatism in international affairs but didn’t:”Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none”. Ukraine is surely testament to the danger of “entangling alliances” in world affairs.Those alliances created the tension in Ukraine, they enable the current war to proceed, but they are utterly incapable of ending it.
Last edited 10 months ago by Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
10 months ago
Congratuations to Unherd for publishing this article. In my experience, the hardest area to get conservatives to do some serious thinking is in security matters. The attachment to alliances runs deep on the political Right, despite Thomas Jefferson’s wonderful mantra that might have defined conservatism in international affairs but didn’t:”Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none”. Ukraine is surely testament to the danger of “entangling alliances” in world affairs.Those alliances created the tension in Ukraine, they enable the current war to proceed, but they are utterly incapable of ending it.
Last edited 10 months ago by Vern Hughes
Ian McKinney
10 months ago
Tankies gonna tank.
Pleasantly surprised by the reaction in the comments though.
Ian McKinney
10 months ago
Tankies gonna tank.
Pleasantly surprised by the reaction in the comments though.
Richard Powell
10 months ago
I haven’t bothered to read the article as just by reading a few random sentences I can see it’s crap. I can tell you what mindset leads to war, though. It’s the Putin mindset, when it isn’t sufficiently challenged or resisted, as it wasn’t until 2022. Thank God NATO is getting its act together at last. The sooner Ukraine joins the better.
ahhh… but it is not: the vast majority of Nato countries have no recent warfare experience, and low military efficiency and discipline.. in short a useless rabble.
You are right.
But then people on here complain that America keeps fighting wars.
How can you have trained fighting force without fighting wars?
Maybe that is why Xi shut up about invading Taiwan (apart from other internal problems).
You are VSP–a Very Stupid Person. Of course you Brits want Americans to keep fighting forever wars. We’ve saved your ass now, what, twice, three times? Lazy f-ers the lot of you, who don’t want to even make your own security arrangements to protect yourselves.
You are VSP–a Very Stupid Person. Of course you Brits want Americans to keep fighting forever wars. We’ve saved your ass now, what, twice, three times? Lazy f-ers the lot of you, who don’t want to even make your own security arrangements to protect yourselves.
You are right.
But then people on here complain that America keeps fighting wars.
How can you have trained fighting force without fighting wars?
Maybe that is why Xi shut up about invading Taiwan (apart from other internal problems).
Don’t unsubscribe, I too loathe Mr Fazi’s double – speak and lack of morality, BUT I want to be informed about the positions of such people who want to leave Ukrainians to die, or be serfs. How else can I be prepared o argue for the rejection of their views? Unherd is not a “safe space” and I don’t want it to be
Sigh, another bloodthirsty Brit who’d rather the U.S. do their fighting for them, I presume? And to also support your security arrangements with our treasure? Pox on all of you.
Sigh, another bloodthirsty Brit who’d rather the U.S. do their fighting for them, I presume? And to also support your security arrangements with our treasure? Pox on all of you.
Don’t unsubscribe: you need to know what these other people are saying and thinking, unpalatable to you though these arguments are. If you don’t know, you can’t counter-argue.
Poor, deluded, soul, who can’t begin to get our of their stupid box of ad-hominems and delusions about people who legitimately want peace as “Putin” lovers. You are just as bad as all the people who called my “far right” for opposing the Covid madness in America. Pox on all of you.
Der, “sympatisers”
Don’t unsubscribe, I too loathe Mr Fazi’s double – speak and lack of morality, BUT I want to be informed about the positions of such people who want to leave Ukrainians to die, or be serfs. How else can I be prepared o argue for the rejection of their views? Unherd is not a “safe space” and I don’t want it to be
Don’t unsubscribe: you need to know what these other people are saying and thinking, unpalatable to you though these arguments are. If you don’t know, you can’t counter-argue.
Poor, deluded, soul, who can’t begin to get our of their stupid box of ad-hominems and delusions about people who legitimately want peace as “Putin” lovers. You are just as bad as all the people who called my “far right” for opposing the Covid madness in America. Pox on all of you.
Der, “sympatisers”
ahhh… but it is not: the vast majority of Nato countries have no recent warfare experience, and low military efficiency and discipline.. in short a useless rabble.
I’m unsubscribing. I’m sick of this utter shite being emailed out to me all the time and the “herd’ of Russia sympatisers which pollute the comments.
Richard Powell
10 months ago
I haven’t bothered to read the article as just by reading a few random sentences I can see it’s crap. I can tell you what mindset leads to war, though. It’s the Putin mindset, when it isn’t sufficiently challenged or resisted, as it wasn’t until 2022. Thank God NATO is getting its act together at last. The sooner Ukraine joins the better.
Christopher Barclay
10 months ago
Is that the same Paul Keating who criticised Britain’s decision not to defend Australia from the Japanese in WWII ?
Christopher Barclay
10 months ago
Is that the same Paul Keating who criticised Britain’s decision not to defend Australia from the Japanese in WWII ?
James Kirk
10 months ago
Ukraine joining NATO before a negotiated ceasefire would mean we just wasted ‘000s of young lives for nothing in that ‘we’ NATO should have stepped in 15 months ago and said ‘NO” to Putin. If some have forgotten why that was a bad idea at the time you don’t deserve to comment.
James Kirk
10 months ago
Ukraine joining NATO before a negotiated ceasefire would mean we just wasted ‘000s of young lives for nothing in that ‘we’ NATO should have stepped in 15 months ago and said ‘NO” to Putin. If some have forgotten why that was a bad idea at the time you don’t deserve to comment.
Richard Craven
10 months ago
I wonder if this teenager has ever met an Estonian.
Richard Craven
10 months ago
I wonder if this teenager has ever met an Estonian.
Tom Griffiths
10 months ago
Dear Thomas et al
Is it all due to the Great Satan
And his coterie of flunkies?
What of the old rival, contending anew?
And ambitious new ghouls?
Why, with selfless generosity
They too show us where to apportion blame
As they slake their thirst
On the blood of others
Yes, it is all due to the Great Satan
And his coterie of flunkies.
Tom Griffiths
10 months ago
Dear Thomas et al
Is it all due to the Great Satan
And his coterie of flunkies?
What of the old rival, contending anew?
And ambitious new ghouls?
Why, with selfless generosity
They too show us where to apportion blame
As they slake their thirst
On the blood of others
Yes, it is all due to the Great Satan
And his coterie of flunkies.
Paul Canon
10 months ago
reposted in error
Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Canon
G. Kaminskas
10 months ago
Absolute garbage. A Putin admirer and Moscow apologist. If UNHERD keeps publishing garbage like this, I will unsubscribe.
Well, unsubscribe then. You warmongerers are all the same, blood-thirsty until the end; don’t call me when your face starts melting off from the nuclear sheen.
You are the one who is pathetic, all you can do is all those of us who want something different in the U.S. aside from forever wars and a further damaged society because of said forever wars as “far-right” “Putin-lovers” etc. Pathetic. Shallow. Stupid. I call you VSP–for Very Stupid People. No ability to even engage in the kinds of complex thinking surrounding international relations or diplomacy and bloodthirsty to the very end.
You are the one who is pathetic, all you can do is all those of us who want something different in the U.S. aside from forever wars and a further damaged society because of said forever wars as “far-right” “Putin-lovers” etc. Pathetic. Shallow. Stupid. I call you VSP–for Very Stupid People. No ability to even engage in the kinds of complex thinking surrounding international relations or diplomacy and bloodthirsty to the very end.
I am happy for this rubbish being published.
It just shows how disgusting left is.
No problem with dictators and hundred millions of deaths.
We are striving for better world.
A better world? Come to America to see our homeless encampments, the product of 40 years of forever wars and neoliberalism and then you will think twice about the “spreading of liberal democracy” through violent and immoral “liberal interventionism.” Come to the heart of LA and then you will stop being such a whiny little b***h.
A better world? Come to America to see our homeless encampments, the product of 40 years of forever wars and neoliberalism and then you will think twice about the “spreading of liberal democracy” through violent and immoral “liberal interventionism.” Come to the heart of LA and then you will stop being such a whiny little b***h.
Well, unsubscribe then. You warmongerers are all the same, blood-thirsty until the end; don’t call me when your face starts melting off from the nuclear sheen.
I am happy for this rubbish being published.
It just shows how disgusting left is.
No problem with dictators and hundred millions of deaths.
We are striving for better world.
G. Kaminskas
10 months ago
Absolute garbage. A Putin admirer and Moscow apologist. If UNHERD keeps publishing garbage like this, I will unsubscribe.
Nathan Sapio
10 months ago
Your logic and likely willfully misunderstood use of statistics is atrocious.
Nathan Sapio
10 months ago
Your logic and likely willfully misunderstood use of statistics is atrocious.
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
Crooked murderous colonial aggressor who denies that Ukraine exists invades with 200,000 troops leads to war, you Putin suck-up.
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
Crooked murderous colonial aggressor who denies that Ukraine exists invades with 200,000 troops leads to war, you Putin suck-up.
Chris England
10 months ago
A few arguable points until you started using Paul Keating as a source. Blokes a complete and utter muppet and your arguments don’t stand scrutiny. At least up to the Keating quotes- then I gave up.
Chris England
10 months ago
A few arguable points until you started using Paul Keating as a source. Blokes a complete and utter muppet and your arguments don’t stand scrutiny. At least up to the Keating quotes- then I gave up.
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
“On the contrary, some are convinced that Nato provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by aggressively expanding eastward, systematically ignoring Russia’s warnings over the years.”
Even Fazi baulks at personally endorsing this drivel.
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
“On the contrary, some are convinced that Nato provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by aggressively expanding eastward, systematically ignoring Russia’s warnings over the years.”
Even Fazi baulks at personally endorsing this drivel.
Nick Holt
9 months ago
we are committing suicide in slow motion
Nick Holt
9 months ago
we are committing suicide in slow motion
Mangle Tangle
10 months ago
Everything Mr Fazi says is true; it’s just the imputed conclusion is wrong. Russia can’t be permitted to take over Ukraine, simples. The fact that NATO is US dominated, the fact that the war serves interests other than Ukraine’s and Russia’s, the fact the the saintly Ursula is useless, etc. etc., all these are irrelevant to the conclusion that needs to be drawn.
Mangle Tangle
10 months ago
Everything Mr Fazi says is true; it’s just the imputed conclusion is wrong. Russia can’t be permitted to take over Ukraine, simples. The fact that NATO is US dominated, the fact that the war serves interests other than Ukraine’s and Russia’s, the fact the the saintly Ursula is useless, etc. etc., all these are irrelevant to the conclusion that needs to be drawn.
martin logan
10 months ago
The fears of a Russian nuclear strike expressed by many below simply ignores the facts.
Russia has used up nearly all of its nuclear-capable cruise missiles. Those newly produced are used to attack little old grannies in Kyiv.
Putin’s advisers wouldn’t dare allow him to keep using them if he had even the slightest intention of using nukes.
So go ahead and get a kick out of the thought of nuclear war. It’s better than using most hard drugs.
But don’t expect anyone else to attend the party.
martin logan
10 months ago
The fears of a Russian nuclear strike expressed by many below simply ignores the facts.
Russia has used up nearly all of its nuclear-capable cruise missiles. Those newly produced are used to attack little old grannies in Kyiv.
Putin’s advisers wouldn’t dare allow him to keep using them if he had even the slightest intention of using nukes.
So go ahead and get a kick out of the thought of nuclear war. It’s better than using most hard drugs.
But don’t expect anyone else to attend the party.
DenialARiverIn Islington
10 months ago
It’s absolutely amazing that people think like this author.
DenialARiverIn Islington
10 months ago
It’s absolutely amazing that people think like this author.
Tom Griffiths
10 months ago
No to NATO Yes to peace? Why does this remind me of Neville Chamberlain’s Peace in our time -(well, for almost a year at any rate)? Need I add that Fazi’s silence regarding Russian fascism and the very clear parallels between Russia’s aggression and German fascism is deafening. Fazi may regard himself as Left but this is a description I reject. Pseudo or fey left is closer to the mark. Fazi’s politics, in so far as it relates to Ukraine resistance, Russian aggression and NATO is simply reactionary.
Tom Griffiths
10 months ago
No to NATO Yes to peace? Why does this remind me of Neville Chamberlain’s Peace in our time -(well, for almost a year at any rate)? Need I add that Fazi’s silence regarding Russian fascism and the very clear parallels between Russia’s aggression and German fascism is deafening. Fazi may regard himself as Left but this is a description I reject. Pseudo or fey left is closer to the mark. Fazi’s politics, in so far as it relates to Ukraine resistance, Russian aggression and NATO is simply reactionary.
Walter Lantz
10 months ago
Fazi raises some interesting points and a some questions too. The accepted narrative of Russia/Ukraine seems to be that everyone thought that the invasion would be over in a month – not enough time for the EU to mobilize any assistance and besides, Russia’s rusty remnants of their Soviet-era military couldn’t last any longer than a month anyway. Then it seems a combination of Ukraine resistance and Russian incompetence has lead to this drawn out Stalingrad-esque battle. Russia has found a way to wage war and survive economic sanctions.
My question is what were the key players – the EU, NATO and the US doing before the invasion when Putin was stacking the border with his forces? Was there no inclination or commitment from the West to ‘draw a line in the sand’ and stop this before it got started? It must have occurred to someone that if Putin ever set up shop in Ukraine it would be a heck of a job getting him out which is exactly where we are now. Putin is many unsavoury things but he isn’t stupid. You don’t survive this long in the back-stabbing world of the KGB and then Russian politics by being an idiot.
Now other Russian neighbours are scrambling to join NATO to ensure defense in the event of attack but is NATO precluded from preventing attacks in the first place? Are they even capable? Is anyone confident that Ukraine would be safe as houses right now if only they a NATO member?
And who exactly runs NATO? The obvious answer seems to be the US. I know Canada doesn’t count – half of our meager collection of Afghan-era Leopard tanks are used to supply spare parts for the other half. EU members of NATO don’t seem to be doing a lot better.
A common saying is that the only thing better than a Bad Guy With a Gun is a Good Guy With a Gun. NATO is supposed to be the Good Guy but if it doesn’t have a gun or refuses to use the one it does have then what’s the point? Where’s the incentive for the Bad Guys to think twice before they do something silly?
For those who are unaware of the only route to peace, may I lovingly introduce you to Jesus Christ the Prince of Peace. World leaders have led nations into conflict and to the brink of war, the inevitable result of kicking God out of the Park and thus ignoring His laws and His Son Their actions impudence and incompetence find them adrift in their boats on oceans at the behest of the strongest tides: First here, then there but forever getting closer to the rocks that await to wreck and destroy. It is time to put down the anchor hold onto the rock of all ages and set sails with the helm firmly in control of the Master. The consequences of anything else are horrendous.
For those who are unaware of the only route to peace, may I lovingly introduce you to Jesus Christ the Prince of Peace. World leaders have led nations into conflict and to the brink of war, the inevitable result of kicking God out of the Park and thus ignoring His laws and His Son Their actions impudence and incompetence find them adrift in their boats on oceans at the behest of the strongest tides: First here, then there but forever getting closer to the rocks that await to wreck and destroy. It is time to put down the anchor hold onto the rock of all ages and set sails with the helm firmly in control of the Master. The consequences of anything else are horrendous.
Walter Lantz
10 months ago
Fazi raises some interesting points and a some questions too. The accepted narrative of Russia/Ukraine seems to be that everyone thought that the invasion would be over in a month – not enough time for the EU to mobilize any assistance and besides, Russia’s rusty remnants of their Soviet-era military couldn’t last any longer than a month anyway. Then it seems a combination of Ukraine resistance and Russian incompetence has lead to this drawn out Stalingrad-esque battle. Russia has found a way to wage war and survive economic sanctions.
My question is what were the key players – the EU, NATO and the US doing before the invasion when Putin was stacking the border with his forces? Was there no inclination or commitment from the West to ‘draw a line in the sand’ and stop this before it got started? It must have occurred to someone that if Putin ever set up shop in Ukraine it would be a heck of a job getting him out which is exactly where we are now. Putin is many unsavoury things but he isn’t stupid. You don’t survive this long in the back-stabbing world of the KGB and then Russian politics by being an idiot.
Now other Russian neighbours are scrambling to join NATO to ensure defense in the event of attack but is NATO precluded from preventing attacks in the first place? Are they even capable? Is anyone confident that Ukraine would be safe as houses right now if only they a NATO member?
And who exactly runs NATO? The obvious answer seems to be the US. I know Canada doesn’t count – half of our meager collection of Afghan-era Leopard tanks are used to supply spare parts for the other half. EU members of NATO don’t seem to be doing a lot better.
A common saying is that the only thing better than a Bad Guy With a Gun is a Good Guy With a Gun. NATO is supposed to be the Good Guy but if it doesn’t have a gun or refuses to use the one it does have then what’s the point? Where’s the incentive for the Bad Guys to think twice before they do something silly?
I keep hearing that if we allow Russia to take over even a little part of Ukraine this will encourage them and will inevitably lead to the Russians invading the whole of Europe. This is not logical. Russia does not want a war with NATO (in the same way as NATO does not want an all-out war with Russia), and any further expansion beyond Ukraine inevitably leads to a war with NATO as – with the exception of Moldova and Belorussia, all Ukraine’s neighbours are NATO members. By trying to “save” Ukraine we are committing economic suicide: our runaway inflation stems from higher energy prices which are the consequence of cutting off Russia. On the other hand, a few (powerful) people are making a lot of money from this war, both in Russia and in the West. The US has hugely multiplied its profits from LNG exports to Europe, and weapons manufacturers are making a killing as Western governments pay for Ukraine’s weapons. We normal people in the meantime are being fleeced every time we go to the supermarket or to fill up our cars, and our public services are being cut back time after time as our schools and hospitals fall into disarray and disrepair.
I know I’ll get called a Russian Bot, an enemy sympathiser, a fifth columnist, Putin-lover or whatnot but the truth of it is simply that I believe governments should do what is best for their own people, and at the moment I don’t think supporting Ukraine is in the interest of any normal people in any Western European country.
You’re prediction about what you will be called is correct. You are a a Russian Bot, an enemy sympathiser, a fifth columnist, and a Putin-lover.
“You’re” is the abbreviated form of “You are” – hence the apostrophe to replace the missing “a”. I believe you meant “Your” which is the correct possessive pronoun. There, now you can add “grammar nazi” to the list.
Grammar Commie!!
Grammar Commie!!
You don’t deserve the downvotes.
And you are a tw*t, unless I missed the irony… 🙁
Personal insults are the last resort of those who have no argument to put forward. You’d probably be more at home on Twitter,
Personal insults are the last resort of those who have no argument to put forward. You’d probably be more at home on Twitter,
“You’re” is the abbreviated form of “You are” – hence the apostrophe to replace the missing “a”. I believe you meant “Your” which is the correct possessive pronoun. There, now you can add “grammar nazi” to the list.
You don’t deserve the downvotes.
And you are a tw*t, unless I missed the irony… 🙁
The mind boggles.
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans, who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities.
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine?
The mind boggles. God help us all.
Inflation and economic turmoil was caused by the ludicrous COVID lockdowns and the massive Gov’t spending they unleashed, and Europe’s insane net-zero commitment. A recession was to be expected.
All Europe needs to do to reverse the economic impact of the war is to re-open its nuclear power plants, and authorize fracking.
Amen to that.
True, however the war instigated by The Bidens and CIA has also fuelled inflation.
When you say ‘re-open its nuclear power plants…’ – how does that work in the UK? I wonder also if ten years of the free money ‘QE’ pump, and the diversion of the consequent wealth upwards might have something to do with the current economic degringolade?
Are you American? We spell it “authorise”.
What a pompous comment from a supposedly ‘leftie’
What a pompous comment from a supposedly ‘leftie’
Amen to that.
True, however the war instigated by The Bidens and CIA has also fuelled inflation.
When you say ‘re-open its nuclear power plants…’ – how does that work in the UK? I wonder also if ten years of the free money ‘QE’ pump, and the diversion of the consequent wealth upwards might have something to do with the current economic degringolade?
Are you American? We spell it “authorise”.
A reasonable point to make. But I’d rather have a Russia on the other side of a buffer zone (aka Ukraine) than one right next to a NATO border. If someone in Russia freaks out at some point in the future, at least a buffer allows a breathing space in which to prevent armageddon.
Not a bad plan – Ukraine as a non-aligned buffer zone, totally neutral and not loyal to either Russia or NATO.
Not sure what one would do about the significant Russian population in Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea.
There is no “significant Russian population” in Eastern Ukraine unless you mean ones brought in after the occupation.
Many of the ‘significant Russian population’ in those provinces have either decamped to Russia (or elsewhere) until it’s all over, or have been so horrified by the reality of what Russian rule of Ukraine actually looks like that they’re totally against it now.
Referenda with international observers perhaps?
There is no “significant Russian population” in Eastern Ukraine unless you mean ones brought in after the occupation.
Many of the ‘significant Russian population’ in those provinces have either decamped to Russia (or elsewhere) until it’s all over, or have been so horrified by the reality of what Russian rule of Ukraine actually looks like that they’re totally against it now.
Referenda with international observers perhaps?
Utter nonsense.
Russia started this war because it does not want independent, democratic Ukraine on its doorsteps.
In case it gives bad example to Russian slaves.
You need to explain why Sweden and Finland decided to join NATO?
Clearly because of peaceful intentions of Russia?
A chicken-or-egg situation?
A chicken-or-egg situation?
That was the point of the ‘guarantees’ given by America, Europe and Russia to Ukraine in 2008 – neutrality and no nuclear weapons in return for total respect for its independence and territorial integrity. Then Russia invaded and took Crimea, and the other guarantors did – precisely nothing! So signalling that further territorial grabs by Russia would also be ignored. Hence last year’s attempted annexation and the bloody mess we’re all having to support now.
Ukraine must be enabled to return its borders to pre-2022, preferably pre-2014. Russia AND NATO must pay for clearing up and rebuilding, and Ukraine must have guarantees with real commitment and consequences. ‘Membership’ is far less important: although it would give Ukraine a say in NATO, it would also require its commitment to defend all other NATO members, which is hardly the point at the moment.
Not sure what one would do about the significant Russian population in Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea.
Utter nonsense.
Russia started this war because it does not want independent, democratic Ukraine on its doorsteps.
In case it gives bad example to Russian slaves.
You need to explain why Sweden and Finland decided to join NATO?
Clearly because of peaceful intentions of Russia?
That was the point of the ‘guarantees’ given by America, Europe and Russia to Ukraine in 2008 – neutrality and no nuclear weapons in return for total respect for its independence and territorial integrity. Then Russia invaded and took Crimea, and the other guarantors did – precisely nothing! So signalling that further territorial grabs by Russia would also be ignored. Hence last year’s attempted annexation and the bloody mess we’re all having to support now.
Ukraine must be enabled to return its borders to pre-2022, preferably pre-2014. Russia AND NATO must pay for clearing up and rebuilding, and Ukraine must have guarantees with real commitment and consequences. ‘Membership’ is far less important: although it would give Ukraine a say in NATO, it would also require its commitment to defend all other NATO members, which is hardly the point at the moment.
Not a bad plan – Ukraine as a non-aligned buffer zone, totally neutral and not loyal to either Russia or NATO.
Well said, totally agree, The Americans are self centred bullies and always have been, ask the native Americans and Mexicans if you’re unsure…
Do you mean all the Mexicans and other South Americans who invade USA southern border at the moment?
Can you tell us why don’t they try to emigrate to Russia or China or Cuba or Venezuela?
Do you mean all the Mexicans and other South Americans who invade USA southern border at the moment?
Can you tell us why don’t they try to emigrate to Russia or China or Cuba or Venezuela?
Unpalatable, but undoubtedly the best comment of the day.*
.Thank you!
(*As @21:10 BST, 11, O7, 2023.)
Usual arguments of appeasers.
It was the same in 1938 with Munich.
Chamberlain was bringing peace for eternity because Mr Hitler signed some paper.
Then by 1940 bombs were falling on London.
Appeasers like you will always argue that if we allow some other people to be killed, we will be safe.
Unfortunately history is against you.
The “history always repeats itself” argument is just as valid as the “history never repeats itself” argument. I stated that Russia will not invade a NATO country as it would not want a direct war with NATO. Comparing this with the arguments about Germany in the 1930s does not detract from its logic.
The “history always repeats itself” argument is just as valid as the “history never repeats itself” argument. I stated that Russia will not invade a NATO country as it would not want a direct war with NATO. Comparing this with the arguments about Germany in the 1930s does not detract from its logic.
You’re prediction about what you will be called is correct. You are a a Russian Bot, an enemy sympathiser, a fifth columnist, and a Putin-lover.
The mind boggles.
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans, who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities.
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine?
The mind boggles. God help us all.
Inflation and economic turmoil was caused by the ludicrous COVID lockdowns and the massive Gov’t spending they unleashed, and Europe’s insane net-zero commitment. A recession was to be expected.
All Europe needs to do to reverse the economic impact of the war is to re-open its nuclear power plants, and authorize fracking.
A reasonable point to make. But I’d rather have a Russia on the other side of a buffer zone (aka Ukraine) than one right next to a NATO border. If someone in Russia freaks out at some point in the future, at least a buffer allows a breathing space in which to prevent armageddon.
Well said, totally agree, The Americans are self centred bullies and always have been, ask the native Americans and Mexicans if you’re unsure…
Unpalatable, but undoubtedly the best comment of the day.*
.Thank you!
(*As @21:10 BST, 11, O7, 2023.)
Usual arguments of appeasers.
It was the same in 1938 with Munich.
Chamberlain was bringing peace for eternity because Mr Hitler signed some paper.
Then by 1940 bombs were falling on London.
Appeasers like you will always argue that if we allow some other people to be killed, we will be safe.
Unfortunately history is against you.
I keep hearing that if we allow Russia to take over even a little part of Ukraine this will encourage them and will inevitably lead to the Russians invading the whole of Europe. This is not logical. Russia does not want a war with NATO (in the same way as NATO does not want an all-out war with Russia), and any further expansion beyond Ukraine inevitably leads to a war with NATO as – with the exception of Moldova and Belorussia, all Ukraine’s neighbours are NATO members. By trying to “save” Ukraine we are committing economic suicide: our runaway inflation stems from higher energy prices which are the consequence of cutting off Russia. On the other hand, a few (powerful) people are making a lot of money from this war, both in Russia and in the West. The US has hugely multiplied its profits from LNG exports to Europe, and weapons manufacturers are making a killing as Western governments pay for Ukraine’s weapons. We normal people in the meantime are being fleeced every time we go to the supermarket or to fill up our cars, and our public services are being cut back time after time as our schools and hospitals fall into disarray and disrepair.
I know I’ll get called a Russian Bot, an enemy sympathiser, a fifth columnist, Putin-lover or whatnot but the truth of it is simply that I believe governments should do what is best for their own people, and at the moment I don’t think supporting Ukraine is in the interest of any normal people in any Western European country.
Thomas Fazi sinks lower and lower in his endless absurd “blame the Americans for everything” ideology.
The Yugoslavia (actually Serbia) bombing – we can argue about whether NATO should have been deployed “out of area and scope” and we can also debate argue the effects t
on Russian and Chinese attitudes, but it is pretty egregious of Mr Fazi to completely ignore the context for the Belgrade bombing. This was to get the Serbian government to reach a political agreement short of their maximalist nationalist aspirations. There had been large scale ethnic cleansing of the Albanian population by the Serbian government, following their earlier attempted war of aggression, massacres and human rights abuses against the Muslim population etc (Srebenica).
Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans, at least for a while, won the geopolitical contest and not the totalitarian Marxist-Leninist party-states of the Soviet Union and China. These between them were responsible for tens of millions of deaths. This could well have happened – they already dominated Eurasia, why not also Latin America and Africa?
We got more liberal more democratic societies, or relatively limited in scope short term dictatorships, not the complete elimination of all forms of dissent, entire classes of people, and private property along with vast concentration camps and constant state monitoring the population.
South Korea rather than North Korea in other words. It ought to be a no-brainer
Fazi’s juvenile analysis also completely ignores the growing split in US domestic politics in Ukraine. The Republican right are leery of involvement. It’s more nuanced than Fazi’s sixth form student analysis yet he continues to get published here.
The RAF dropped bombs on Christian civilians in Serbia in order to curry favour with oil producers in the Middle East. One of the most disgraceful episodes in our military history.
Talking to those in the British Army involved in Bosnia, it is interesting to note how the Serbs warned them of the coming upsurge in Islamic guerrilla and insugency warfare and attack throughout the west.. and Africa… Of course, they were spot on.
Oh F O Nicky you N*zi!! Grow up!
Oh F O Nicky you N*zi!! Grow up!
Who cares about the Serbs’ religion? They were launching aggressive and genocidal wars against their neighbors.
What has civilian religion got to do with it, Serbia was bombed because they were committing genocide… the leadership’s behaviour was despicable!
Utter nonsense. Serbians wanted greater Serbia and were pursuing genocidal policy against not just Muslim but Croatian (remember Vukovar?).
Croatians are, mostly, Catholic Christians and Serbians are Orthodox.
I travelled widely in this part of the world even under Communism and Serbians are like “Little Russians”. They believe that they should dominate and occupy others people lands.
Hungarians who i really like, are unfortunately, similar.
Talking to those in the British Army involved in Bosnia, it is interesting to note how the Serbs warned them of the coming upsurge in Islamic guerrilla and insugency warfare and attack throughout the west.. and Africa… Of course, they were spot on.
Who cares about the Serbs’ religion? They were launching aggressive and genocidal wars against their neighbors.
What has civilian religion got to do with it, Serbia was bombed because they were committing genocide… the leadership’s behaviour was despicable!
Utter nonsense. Serbians wanted greater Serbia and were pursuing genocidal policy against not just Muslim but Croatian (remember Vukovar?).
Croatians are, mostly, Catholic Christians and Serbians are Orthodox.
I travelled widely in this part of the world even under Communism and Serbians are like “Little Russians”. They believe that they should dominate and occupy others people lands.
Hungarians who i really like, are unfortunately, similar.
Thanks for dealing with the absolute child.
Thank God for some sanity here – I thought Unherd was meant for informed, educated discussion and debate. What next – “How Trump is saving American Democracy”? I expect that’d bring covert Unherd-reading MAGA sympathisers out in force – just like Fazi’s Putin-excusing ramble seems to have done
Well its beyond doubt that Biden and Democrats are not! In recent history, I’ve never come across such a bunch of totalitarians as are in power in the USA at the moment. So who is ‘saving American Democracy’?
Well its beyond doubt that Biden and Democrats are not! In recent history, I’ve never come across such a bunch of totalitarians as are in power in the USA at the moment. So who is ‘saving American Democracy’?
“Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans”
You know, this article doesn’t mention the cold war at all. His complaint is about the shift in Nato that occurred starting in 1999 when it started to get used by the US in an offensive role. Nato is strictly a defensive pact.
As an American, I don’t see his pointing out the misuse of this alliance in a way that seems to enrich what President Eisenhower warned us of in the US military industrial complex. Which we could note that of all the billions of taxpayer dollars pledged to Ukraine most of it goes through the US defense industry.
So it’s no surprise that it’s reported that 21 of the 46 signatories to a new open letter supporting Ukraine’s NATO bid “are associated with institutions with financial ties to the weapons industry.” That’s not noble or good in any sense, it’s about the money. Extending or expanding the war for thier own profits!
Anyway, back to the topic… what you’ve done Andrew is build what is called a “Straw man”. When you recast the other persons argument into something they’re not even saying, only you make it a weaker argument that you can knock down.
Then as you do so you insult him as “sinking lower” into “absurdity”… We have a cadre of fellow insulters following in your footsteps calling him a mere “student” not deserving publishing, questioning his sanity, claming he is uninformed, uneducated, Putin-excusing…
When actually none of that’s’ true. Another word for a ‘straw man” argument is a “lie”. The others that followed just seem angry, and really have nothing but personal insults. It seems clear to me that under Joe Biden, one of the most corrupt presidents ever, Washington has been making use of Europe against their own interests. For example those sanctions have hurt Europian economies more than they hurt Russia. That’s a fact that is provable. That’s not “Putin supporting”, those are just facts. Like as in, the truth. Do you know what the truth is, or like Bill Clinton are you still trying to determine what the meaning of “is” is?
So myopic.
There was also large-scale ethnic cleansing and ethnic conflict in the Donbas, just as there was in Kosovo.
So it was OK for NATO to bomb Serbia in response to ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, but it’s NOT OK for Russia to bomb Ukraine in response to ethnic cleansing in Ukraine.
You can see why the rest of the world is siding with Russia . . .
You are talking utter rubbish.
There was Ukrainian independence referendum in 1991.
Over 83% of population of Donbas and Luhansk voted to be part of independent Ukraine.
Even Crimea voted 54% for that.
Just because small minority in these regions wanted to be part of Russia and started civil war with help of Russian to this end, does not mean they should be allowed to succeed.
You are either Russian stooge or in Lenins word “usefull idiot”.
Take your pick.
Ethnic cleansing, are you out of your mind? Eastern Ukraine including Mariupol, Severodonetsk, Bakhmut and other now occupied places were open to public until February 2022, you could have visited and seen the “cleansing” with your own eyes. Completely Russian-speaking cities that were actually retaken from the separatists with very little bloodshed and no destruction until Russia came to “liberate” them. Check the casualties stats for the last years in Donbass.. and finally stop operating with “facts” for which there’s even hardly any fabricated “evidence”, it’s just so cuz Putin says so, right? Meanwhile, any full transcript of Putin’s speeches will show you what he thinks and wants to do with the Ukrainian nation (which is both Ukrainian and Russian speaking). Bloody idiots, what has Unherd become..
You are talking utter rubbish.
There was Ukrainian independence referendum in 1991.
Over 83% of population of Donbas and Luhansk voted to be part of independent Ukraine.
Even Crimea voted 54% for that.
Just because small minority in these regions wanted to be part of Russia and started civil war with help of Russian to this end, does not mean they should be allowed to succeed.
You are either Russian stooge or in Lenins word “usefull idiot”.
Take your pick.
Ethnic cleansing, are you out of your mind? Eastern Ukraine including Mariupol, Severodonetsk, Bakhmut and other now occupied places were open to public until February 2022, you could have visited and seen the “cleansing” with your own eyes. Completely Russian-speaking cities that were actually retaken from the separatists with very little bloodshed and no destruction until Russia came to “liberate” them. Check the casualties stats for the last years in Donbass.. and finally stop operating with “facts” for which there’s even hardly any fabricated “evidence”, it’s just so cuz Putin says so, right? Meanwhile, any full transcript of Putin’s speeches will show you what he thinks and wants to do with the Ukrainian nation (which is both Ukrainian and Russian speaking). Bloody idiots, what has Unherd become..
Exactly.
His usual complain is about “aggressive expansion of NATO” as if former Russian slaves needed any persuading to join NATO at first opportunity.
Even deluded nations like Sweden and Finland realised that the only realistic protection against genocidal Russian imperialism is membership of NATO.
His comments about pretended equivalence of NATO members is another “state the obvious”.
Of course USA is dominant partner because it provides great majority of NATO military capabilities.
Where would we be now if Russia appeasers like Germany and France were deciding policy.
His comments about China are just laughable.
Can he explain why world dominated by China is in the West interest?
Of course he can not.
So another moronic article by dictators stooge.
Fazi the Naz*
Fisher might think he is a mature adult capable of independent thought. However he represents the most herded of UnHerd readers along with his fellow up-tickers.
A real believer – a mind formed by the propaganda spewed out daily in the MSM. All he is now capable of is regurgitation of guff spewed out by the warmongering Military Industrial Complex and NATO and the thugs in the 47th Brigade.
Fazi’s juvenile analysis also completely ignores the growing split in US domestic politics in Ukraine. The Republican right are leery of involvement. It’s more nuanced than Fazi’s sixth form student analysis yet he continues to get published here.
The RAF dropped bombs on Christian civilians in Serbia in order to curry favour with oil producers in the Middle East. One of the most disgraceful episodes in our military history.
Thanks for dealing with the absolute child.
Thank God for some sanity here – I thought Unherd was meant for informed, educated discussion and debate. What next – “How Trump is saving American Democracy”? I expect that’d bring covert Unherd-reading MAGA sympathisers out in force – just like Fazi’s Putin-excusing ramble seems to have done
“Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans”
You know, this article doesn’t mention the cold war at all. His complaint is about the shift in Nato that occurred starting in 1999 when it started to get used by the US in an offensive role. Nato is strictly a defensive pact.
As an American, I don’t see his pointing out the misuse of this alliance in a way that seems to enrich what President Eisenhower warned us of in the US military industrial complex. Which we could note that of all the billions of taxpayer dollars pledged to Ukraine most of it goes through the US defense industry.
So it’s no surprise that it’s reported that 21 of the 46 signatories to a new open letter supporting Ukraine’s NATO bid “are associated with institutions with financial ties to the weapons industry.” That’s not noble or good in any sense, it’s about the money. Extending or expanding the war for thier own profits!
Anyway, back to the topic… what you’ve done Andrew is build what is called a “Straw man”. When you recast the other persons argument into something they’re not even saying, only you make it a weaker argument that you can knock down.
Then as you do so you insult him as “sinking lower” into “absurdity”… We have a cadre of fellow insulters following in your footsteps calling him a mere “student” not deserving publishing, questioning his sanity, claming he is uninformed, uneducated, Putin-excusing…
When actually none of that’s’ true. Another word for a ‘straw man” argument is a “lie”. The others that followed just seem angry, and really have nothing but personal insults. It seems clear to me that under Joe Biden, one of the most corrupt presidents ever, Washington has been making use of Europe against their own interests. For example those sanctions have hurt Europian economies more than they hurt Russia. That’s a fact that is provable. That’s not “Putin supporting”, those are just facts. Like as in, the truth. Do you know what the truth is, or like Bill Clinton are you still trying to determine what the meaning of “is” is?
So myopic.
There was also large-scale ethnic cleansing and ethnic conflict in the Donbas, just as there was in Kosovo.
So it was OK for NATO to bomb Serbia in response to ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, but it’s NOT OK for Russia to bomb Ukraine in response to ethnic cleansing in Ukraine.
You can see why the rest of the world is siding with Russia . . .
Exactly.
His usual complain is about “aggressive expansion of NATO” as if former Russian slaves needed any persuading to join NATO at first opportunity.
Even deluded nations like Sweden and Finland realised that the only realistic protection against genocidal Russian imperialism is membership of NATO.
His comments about pretended equivalence of NATO members is another “state the obvious”.
Of course USA is dominant partner because it provides great majority of NATO military capabilities.
Where would we be now if Russia appeasers like Germany and France were deciding policy.
His comments about China are just laughable.
Can he explain why world dominated by China is in the West interest?
Of course he can not.
So another moronic article by dictators stooge.
Fazi the Naz*
Fisher might think he is a mature adult capable of independent thought. However he represents the most herded of UnHerd readers along with his fellow up-tickers.
A real believer – a mind formed by the propaganda spewed out daily in the MSM. All he is now capable of is regurgitation of guff spewed out by the warmongering Military Industrial Complex and NATO and the thugs in the 47th Brigade.
Thomas Fazi sinks lower and lower in his endless absurd “blame the Americans for everything” ideology.
The Yugoslavia (actually Serbia) bombing – we can argue about whether NATO should have been deployed “out of area and scope” and we can also debate argue the effects t
on Russian and Chinese attitudes, but it is pretty egregious of Mr Fazi to completely ignore the context for the Belgrade bombing. This was to get the Serbian government to reach a political agreement short of their maximalist nationalist aspirations. There had been large scale ethnic cleansing of the Albanian population by the Serbian government, following their earlier attempted war of aggression, massacres and human rights abuses against the Muslim population etc (Srebenica).
Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans, at least for a while, won the geopolitical contest and not the totalitarian Marxist-Leninist party-states of the Soviet Union and China. These between them were responsible for tens of millions of deaths. This could well have happened – they already dominated Eurasia, why not also Latin America and Africa?
We got more liberal more democratic societies, or relatively limited in scope short term dictatorships, not the complete elimination of all forms of dissent, entire classes of people, and private property along with vast concentration camps and constant state monitoring the population.
South Korea rather than North Korea in other words. It ought to be a no-brainer
“some are convinced that Nato provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by aggressively expanding eastward”
Er, I think you’ll find that those countries asked to join to avoid Russian aggression. Ukraine didn’t and this is the result.
Simple really.
But not to Russian stooges and Lenin useful idiots on here and elsewhere.
Simple really.
But not to Russian stooges and Lenin useful idiots on here and elsewhere.
“some are convinced that Nato provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by aggressively expanding eastward”
Er, I think you’ll find that those countries asked to join to avoid Russian aggression. Ukraine didn’t and this is the result.
Hilarious. Thomas , you can’t blame a dog for barking – militarism is what NATO is set up to do. And I for one am thankful for that.
George Orwell put it well “a pacifist only exists because someone else chose to fight on their behalf”
And as Napoleon said: “The World is not ruined by the wickedness of the wicked, but by the weakness of the good.”
And as Napoleon said: “The World is not ruined by the wickedness of the wicked, but by the weakness of the good.”
Hilarious. Thomas , you can’t blame a dog for barking – militarism is what NATO is set up to do. And I for one am thankful for that.
George Orwell put it well “a pacifist only exists because someone else chose to fight on their behalf”
“War is peace, and peace is war.”
Fascinating insight into Fazi’s worship of force, and his unique definition that “war” can only be made by “the West.”
So, by definition, anything Russia does is “not war.” Putin’s 20-year build up of the Russian military, and NATO’s relative decline, is of no consequence. Neither is Putin’s invasion.
Because only NATO wages “war.”
Indeed, for Fazi–and Mearsheimer–the fates of individuals are of no consequence, just lofty thoughts about “Realism.”
What was “real,” however, about the “illegal” NATO war against Milosevic’s Serbia was that he had started ethnic cleansing of Kosovars from their own nation. Indeed, earlier, it was a horrific strike on a market in Sarajevo that made a very reluctant Bill Clinton intervene to stop the war in Bosnia. That was after several years of a brutal siege. The bombed out high-rises in both Bosnia and Ukraine look exactly the same.
And the only thing that is “real” about the present conflict is that Russia openly practices genocide against Ukraine and all Ukrainians. That has been Putin’s avowed aim since 2014: destroy Ukraine as a nation. To do so, his minions have to rape torture and kill as many Ukrainians as possible.
So for Fazi, “war” is only that which is inflicted on Russia by the West when Putin attacks other nations. “War” is when Russia is constrained by foolish western laws, like respect for borders and human life.
So, you see? Only NATO wages war!
Big Brother and Stalin look down on Fazi.
And smile approvingly…
“War is peace, and peace is war.”
Fascinating insight into Fazi’s worship of force, and his unique definition that “war” can only be made by “the West.”
So, by definition, anything Russia does is “not war.” Putin’s 20-year build up of the Russian military, and NATO’s relative decline, is of no consequence. Neither is Putin’s invasion.
Because only NATO wages “war.”
Indeed, for Fazi–and Mearsheimer–the fates of individuals are of no consequence, just lofty thoughts about “Realism.”
What was “real,” however, about the “illegal” NATO war against Milosevic’s Serbia was that he had started ethnic cleansing of Kosovars from their own nation. Indeed, earlier, it was a horrific strike on a market in Sarajevo that made a very reluctant Bill Clinton intervene to stop the war in Bosnia. That was after several years of a brutal siege. The bombed out high-rises in both Bosnia and Ukraine look exactly the same.
And the only thing that is “real” about the present conflict is that Russia openly practices genocide against Ukraine and all Ukrainians. That has been Putin’s avowed aim since 2014: destroy Ukraine as a nation. To do so, his minions have to rape torture and kill as many Ukrainians as possible.
So for Fazi, “war” is only that which is inflicted on Russia by the West when Putin attacks other nations. “War” is when Russia is constrained by foolish western laws, like respect for borders and human life.
So, you see? Only NATO wages war!
Big Brother and Stalin look down on Fazi.
And smile approvingly…
That’s right Thomas, keep on blaming the defender and not the aggressor.
Are we still pretending that Ukraine itself didn’t spend 8 years shelling citizens in the East of the country? I don’t condone Russia or its actions, but the desperate one-sided perception in the West, particularly the UK vassal is a little strange and behind the curve.
To be fair, it was their own country
An irritating little detail!!
An irritating little detail!!
Still not the place of Russia to invade another country
“As the saying goes, if all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail ”
Who used the hammer first, precisely because the whole world looks like his nail.Putrid Putin.To Thomas, i say….. Grow Up.
“As the saying goes, if all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail ”
Who used the hammer first, precisely because the whole world looks like his nail.Putrid Putin.To Thomas, i say….. Grow Up.
The only reason there was fighting in the Donbas was that Russia invaded in 2014. There was no “civil war” until Russian “little green men” (backed by artillery fire from across the border) invaded.
You mean shelling citizens who were actively fighting against the Ukrainian army along with their Russian proxy friends?
To be fair, it was their own country
Still not the place of Russia to invade another country
The only reason there was fighting in the Donbas was that Russia invaded in 2014. There was no “civil war” until Russian “little green men” (backed by artillery fire from across the border) invaded.
You mean shelling citizens who were actively fighting against the Ukrainian army along with their Russian proxy friends?
Are we still pretending that Ukraine itself didn’t spend 8 years shelling citizens in the East of the country? I don’t condone Russia or its actions, but the desperate one-sided perception in the West, particularly the UK vassal is a little strange and behind the curve.
That’s right Thomas, keep on blaming the defender and not the aggressor.
No country can join NATO while its engaged in an active war, That’s part of the rules.
I’m unconvinced the rules will be adhered to.
So NATO leaders should be beating a path to your door to persuade you of their bona fides?
So NATO leaders should be beating a path to your door to persuade you of their bona fides?
I’m unconvinced the rules will be adhered to.
No country can join NATO while its engaged in an active war, That’s part of the rules.
What is the point of this article? I fail to see what it is trying to say, except that Fazi doesn’t like NATO.
Also what peace will there be for Ukraine unless it can prove that it can at least hold Russia to a stalemate? There can be no negotiation unless you have power to back it up
What is the point of this article? I fail to see what it is trying to say, except that Fazi doesn’t like NATO.
Also what peace will there be for Ukraine unless it can prove that it can at least hold Russia to a stalemate? There can be no negotiation unless you have power to back it up
As much as I despise the thoroughly Davos little Pepé Le Pew Macron, he has always had this Gallic centric sense of rebellion against the Anglo (Mainly US) controlled Nato. He was even balking at escalation until the (UK psyop, color revolution?) suspiciously timed Antifa like rebellion threated to take him down. He was also right, back when he declared Nato to be “brain dead”.
The self-willed all-powerful US, and its ultra-aggressive representatives in Europe were able to fill that brain dead corpse with a will it directed, and the corrupt squishy little EU governance were sold the modern Davos inspired transformation of Ukraine into the digital “eat ze bugs” nation where people would own nothing (Blackrock and other Western oligarchs will) and be
miserablehappy.Of course, what has been behind all of this other than intense amounts of stupidity and incompetence is the real driving force. Hubris! They all simply (to our own peril) underestimated the Russians. Just like Hitler did. At every turn we have been told (lied to) that this or that would collapse them, that this or that magic weapon would be a “game changer”. That they were collapsing from the inside. That Putin had terminal cancer. That history in Ukraine only started in 2014 when a madman who was simultaneously using an incompetent, undersize, underpowered, ineffective military force was also going to run that joke of a military across all of Europe if he weren’t stopped at all costs in Ukraine.
Meanwhile like some sort of trick gun that shoots the person that aims at another and pulls the trigger, the EU nations have been murdering their own economies. Time has worked against everything Washington set out to do. No amount of blowing up pipelines or dams and blaming the Ork King fulfilled anything except to harm more of the world and the humans living in it.
Now they’re justifying cluster munitions, because as Joe Biden declared they’re “out of ammo”… Oh, ok… So this is another narrative collapse. We’ve been being lied to. We’ve been told that Ukraine was doing great, and the Russians were the ones running out… Only the Spring (now summer) offensive with all the Western super-hardware, and Western trained forces was going to be the latest “game changer”.
Lie to me once, shame on you, lie to me 8 to 10 more times, and I believe it, I must be a moron…. Or a paid federal agent online to spread lies. What all of this is, in the end is Stupidity merged with Hubris into something that defies all the laws of nature and truth. Which, that’s always not long for this world.
The world doesn’t operate on lies and stupidity. All of that wears out. When people figure out that everything is a lie, narcissists always have to move on to their next victims, and that is what our corrupt Western leaders and the controlled media does. They will simply move on.
The next victims appear to be Taiwanese, who sadly happen to have magically got a set of Pro-Washington agenda leaders over them until 2024, when they will be swept out of office by some leaders who don’t have the same goals. It’s amazing how all over the world people get in power that make all these commitments that don’t reflect the will of the vast majority of citizens who live under them…
Indeed, the people who actually invade are never the victimizers.
Only the people who try to help defend them.
“Peace is war, and war is peace.”
Makes perfect sense to me.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Yes, BBC.
Great example of honest, fearless journalism.
Like now with its presenter and before with covid and Jimmy Saville.
Yes, BBC.
Great example of honest, fearless journalism.
Like now with its presenter and before with covid and Jimmy Saville.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Brilliant, thanks Steve. The Undead Corpse that is the American president was also put in place, along with his neocon hacks and Iraq War has-been advisors, to “rebuild” a anachronistic coalition that Trump the Maniac had dared to question. Trump’s neanderthalic sensibilities were right for once: NATO is but an Atlanticist pipe dream, built on the treasure, blood and at one time good-will of the American people, who mostly have no clue how corrupt and epically mismanaged it has always been.
Add to this that Undead Prez Biden is engaged in massive money laundering operations in Ukraine, and has been for years (hence the huge cover-up before the election) and something Just. Isn’t. Right. about all this.
I’m predicting nothing good in the next 5-10 years, for regular Americans, but most especially for the elites whom we all toil for. By then, it will be too late. But pox on them all.
I have read in many different settings and topics that ‘trump was right for once’. In fact he seems to have been right most the time. I have never read, not once, ‘trump was wrong’ even when it came to Covid and Intermectin.
I just cannot with Trump, man. He has no regard for democratic norms, and although right a few times, was dead wrong on the voting fraud stuff, which caused much chaos in America. Look, I despise Biden, I think he is a horrible person and probably the most corrupt president the U.S. has ever had, but we can certainly do better than him OR Trump.
I just cannot with Trump, man. He has no regard for democratic norms, and although right a few times, was dead wrong on the voting fraud stuff, which caused much chaos in America. Look, I despise Biden, I think he is a horrible person and probably the most corrupt president the U.S. has ever had, but we can certainly do better than him OR Trump.
I have read in many different settings and topics that ‘trump was right for once’. In fact he seems to have been right most the time. I have never read, not once, ‘trump was wrong’ even when it came to Covid and Intermectin.
Do you mean all the people of great democracies of China and Russia?
In the West you are free to go there and join Snowden.
You sound like you would really fit in.
You what?
Indeed, the people who actually invade are never the victimizers.
Only the people who try to help defend them.
“Peace is war, and war is peace.”
Makes perfect sense to me.
Brilliant, thanks Steve. The Undead Corpse that is the American president was also put in place, along with his neocon hacks and Iraq War has-been advisors, to “rebuild” a anachronistic coalition that Trump the Maniac had dared to question. Trump’s neanderthalic sensibilities were right for once: NATO is but an Atlanticist pipe dream, built on the treasure, blood and at one time good-will of the American people, who mostly have no clue how corrupt and epically mismanaged it has always been.
Add to this that Undead Prez Biden is engaged in massive money laundering operations in Ukraine, and has been for years (hence the huge cover-up before the election) and something Just. Isn’t. Right. about all this.
I’m predicting nothing good in the next 5-10 years, for regular Americans, but most especially for the elites whom we all toil for. By then, it will be too late. But pox on them all.
Do you mean all the people of great democracies of China and Russia?
In the West you are free to go there and join Snowden.
You sound like you would really fit in.
You what?
As much as I despise the thoroughly Davos little Pepé Le Pew Macron, he has always had this Gallic centric sense of rebellion against the Anglo (Mainly US) controlled Nato. He was even balking at escalation until the (UK psyop, color revolution?) suspiciously timed Antifa like rebellion threated to take him down. He was also right, back when he declared Nato to be “brain dead”.
The self-willed all-powerful US, and its ultra-aggressive representatives in Europe were able to fill that brain dead corpse with a will it directed, and the corrupt squishy little EU governance were sold the modern Davos inspired transformation of Ukraine into the digital “eat ze bugs” nation where people would own nothing (Blackrock and other Western oligarchs will) and be
miserablehappy.Of course, what has been behind all of this other than intense amounts of stupidity and incompetence is the real driving force. Hubris! They all simply (to our own peril) underestimated the Russians. Just like Hitler did. At every turn we have been told (lied to) that this or that would collapse them, that this or that magic weapon would be a “game changer”. That they were collapsing from the inside. That Putin had terminal cancer. That history in Ukraine only started in 2014 when a madman who was simultaneously using an incompetent, undersize, underpowered, ineffective military force was also going to run that joke of a military across all of Europe if he weren’t stopped at all costs in Ukraine.
Meanwhile like some sort of trick gun that shoots the person that aims at another and pulls the trigger, the EU nations have been murdering their own economies. Time has worked against everything Washington set out to do. No amount of blowing up pipelines or dams and blaming the Ork King fulfilled anything except to harm more of the world and the humans living in it.
Now they’re justifying cluster munitions, because as Joe Biden declared they’re “out of ammo”… Oh, ok… So this is another narrative collapse. We’ve been being lied to. We’ve been told that Ukraine was doing great, and the Russians were the ones running out… Only the Spring (now summer) offensive with all the Western super-hardware, and Western trained forces was going to be the latest “game changer”.
Lie to me once, shame on you, lie to me 8 to 10 more times, and I believe it, I must be a moron…. Or a paid federal agent online to spread lies. What all of this is, in the end is Stupidity merged with Hubris into something that defies all the laws of nature and truth. Which, that’s always not long for this world.
The world doesn’t operate on lies and stupidity. All of that wears out. When people figure out that everything is a lie, narcissists always have to move on to their next victims, and that is what our corrupt Western leaders and the controlled media does. They will simply move on.
The next victims appear to be Taiwanese, who sadly happen to have magically got a set of Pro-Washington agenda leaders over them until 2024, when they will be swept out of office by some leaders who don’t have the same goals. It’s amazing how all over the world people get in power that make all these commitments that don’t reflect the will of the vast majority of citizens who live under them…
It would be a brave, or foolish, nation that trusts its defence to NATO. You can trust only in yourself. Ask a Pole.
You’d be certified if you trust your defence to Ursula. Just ask the German army.
Bring back the Wehrmacht, all is forgiven!
Can they start going West first, please (idea based on family experience).
Food and wine much better….
Can they start going West first, please (idea based on family experience).
Food and wine much better….
To be fair disarmament of Germany and appeasement of Russia were decision of Russian stooge, Angela Merkel.
If you recall women leaders around the world, including Merkel, were always used as examples of proper leadership.
Most of them are now gone with not exactly enhanced reputation.
Scottish smelly fish or NZ idiot anyone?
Oh dear! Cherchez la femme? Because it was always so much better when all positions of power were reserved for men?
Oh, wait! Nope! There was appeasement, belligerence, miscalculation and penny-pinching when the men had sole charge too. Never mind; I’m sure you can imagine that there was always a woman behind these problems too.
Oh dear! Cherchez la femme? Because it was always so much better when all positions of power were reserved for men?
Oh, wait! Nope! There was appeasement, belligerence, miscalculation and penny-pinching when the men had sole charge too. Never mind; I’m sure you can imagine that there was always a woman behind these problems too.
Bring back the Wehrmacht, all is forgiven!
To be fair disarmament of Germany and appeasement of Russia were decision of Russian stooge, Angela Merkel.
If you recall women leaders around the world, including Merkel, were always used as examples of proper leadership.
Most of them are now gone with not exactly enhanced reputation.
Scottish smelly fish or NZ idiot anyone?
You’d be certified if you trust your defence to Ursula. Just ask the German army.
It would be a brave, or foolish, nation that trusts its defence to NATO. You can trust only in yourself. Ask a Pole.
“the US, though it has complained often about inequitable burden sharing, has never demanded a dramatic increase in European military power”
I seem to remember Trump being pretty blunt and demanding.
Exactly, but idiots like Fazi were probably writing articles criticising bad Orange man.
Exactly, but idiots like Fazi were probably writing articles criticising bad Orange man.
“the US, though it has complained often about inequitable burden sharing, has never demanded a dramatic increase in European military power”
I seem to remember Trump being pretty blunt and demanding.
Another excellent piece, Thomas. The people who accept your view are many, even though most have political views very different than yours. Most are straight-A classic – not populist – conservative and anti-communist. Many are influential, loyal Americans, from Ted Galen Carpenter at the Cato Institute to the late Richard Nixon and 90% of the true architects ofcUS Cold War policy. Opposed are the Democrat war hawks, which is ironic, and their cheer squads here who have no understanding of how this war really came about. They don’t seem to care. It’s all about righteous slaughter.
Exactly. What’s mind-blowing to me, every single day, is that the “progressive” “peace” caucus in the Democrat Party, many candidates who ran on platforms opposed to our forever wars and wars of liberal interventionism, are ALL IN on this horror and slaughter. The whole lot of them, even The Squad. As someone who still loosely clings to some semblance of leftism (at the least the remanants of the Old Left, which has been shattered in America) this is an appalling state of affairs, which has created a vacuum, with no effective bulwark against the warmongering in the Democratic Party. Even Barbara Lee, the lone voice against the disastrous invasion of Afghanistan, is all in.
Many things at play here–but many people like me are utterly politically homeless, especially those of us who opposed the Covid mania, which was sponsored by the biodefense industrial complex here in America. We’ve found friendly alliances with libertarians and American Conservative magazine type conservatives. It’s a broad coalition of disenfranchised leftists who are mostly massing behind RFK Jr. or Cornel West at this point. But I think, and hope, that we will become a potent force again some day. The liberal-left in America has become completely compromised, and is only a synthetic, fake thing that is actually very corporate, warmongering and intensely opposed to different viewpoints, hence the censorship. Many of these people are viciously opposed to Fazi, who I actually believe is one of the real, true leftists remaining right now.
Exactly. What’s mind-blowing to me, every single day, is that the “progressive” “peace” caucus in the Democrat Party, many candidates who ran on platforms opposed to our forever wars and wars of liberal interventionism, are ALL IN on this horror and slaughter. The whole lot of them, even The Squad. As someone who still loosely clings to some semblance of leftism (at the least the remanants of the Old Left, which has been shattered in America) this is an appalling state of affairs, which has created a vacuum, with no effective bulwark against the warmongering in the Democratic Party. Even Barbara Lee, the lone voice against the disastrous invasion of Afghanistan, is all in.
Many things at play here–but many people like me are utterly politically homeless, especially those of us who opposed the Covid mania, which was sponsored by the biodefense industrial complex here in America. We’ve found friendly alliances with libertarians and American Conservative magazine type conservatives. It’s a broad coalition of disenfranchised leftists who are mostly massing behind RFK Jr. or Cornel West at this point. But I think, and hope, that we will become a potent force again some day. The liberal-left in America has become completely compromised, and is only a synthetic, fake thing that is actually very corporate, warmongering and intensely opposed to different viewpoints, hence the censorship. Many of these people are viciously opposed to Fazi, who I actually believe is one of the real, true leftists remaining right now.
Another excellent piece, Thomas. The people who accept your view are many, even though most have political views very different than yours. Most are straight-A classic – not populist – conservative and anti-communist. Many are influential, loyal Americans, from Ted Galen Carpenter at the Cato Institute to the late Richard Nixon and 90% of the true architects ofcUS Cold War policy. Opposed are the Democrat war hawks, which is ironic, and their cheer squads here who have no understanding of how this war really came about. They don’t seem to care. It’s all about righteous slaughter.
Russia launched an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, to deflect attention from growing unrest in Russia over things such as pensions.NATO bombed Serbia to stop it ethnically cleansing KosovarsNo ex Soviet Union country that joined NATO has been attacked by Russia. Most ex Soviet Union countries that didn’t join NATO have either been invaded (Georgia/ Ukraine) or subject to interference (Belarus, Kazakstan) or had Russia inspired civil wars (Moldvoa) or Russian supported wars (Armienia)NATO is a force for peace. Russia is a force for war.
Yes, and NATO is run by out of touch generals and Atlanticists in the U.S. who see this as a massive money laundering operation for the “defense” industry. Open your eyes, brother. The U.S’s stake in this is for and by the corrupt elites and their minions. And, sadly, the progressive left are the water carriers for this horror. The mind boggles.
And 2 things can be true at the same time
And 2 things can be true at the same time
Yes, and NATO is run by out of touch generals and Atlanticists in the U.S. who see this as a massive money laundering operation for the “defense” industry. Open your eyes, brother. The U.S’s stake in this is for and by the corrupt elites and their minions. And, sadly, the progressive left are the water carriers for this horror. The mind boggles.
Russia launched an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, to deflect attention from growing unrest in Russia over things such as pensions.NATO bombed Serbia to stop it ethnically cleansing KosovarsNo ex Soviet Union country that joined NATO has been attacked by Russia. Most ex Soviet Union countries that didn’t join NATO have either been invaded (Georgia/ Ukraine) or subject to interference (Belarus, Kazakstan) or had Russia inspired civil wars (Moldvoa) or Russian supported wars (Armienia)NATO is a force for peace. Russia is a force for war.
The logic here is so poor, and so obviously poor, that I could not read beyond half way. It is a catalogue of invalid assumptions and illogical conclusions.
Perhaps the author could do better by simply saying what he wants to happen. Russia to defeat Ukraine, and Germany to resume buying gas and selling Mercedes? Is that the idea?
Yes.
Apart from small details like genocide of Ukrainians.
Disgusting Russia stooges on here either don’t know or don’t care that it was done to Ukrainians in the 30s and Poles in the 1940.
Yes.
Apart from small details like genocide of Ukrainians.
Disgusting Russia stooges on here either don’t know or don’t care that it was done to Ukrainians in the 30s and Poles in the 1940.
The logic here is so poor, and so obviously poor, that I could not read beyond half way. It is a catalogue of invalid assumptions and illogical conclusions.
Perhaps the author could do better by simply saying what he wants to happen. Russia to defeat Ukraine, and Germany to resume buying gas and selling Mercedes? Is that the idea?
Oh dear
one decent article and you’re back to talking twaddle
Oh dear, when are the Brits going to man up and actually offer a stable security arrangement for Europe, instead of relying on your former colonies’ blood and treasure?
Perhaps when ‘you’ lot stop supporting NORAID and other Irish terrorists gangs.
I would have thought after 9/11 as you call it, you would have learnt your lesson, but sadly, obviously NOT!
Perhaps when ‘you’ lot stop supporting NORAID and other Irish terrorists gangs.
I would have thought after 9/11 as you call it, you would have learnt your lesson, but sadly, obviously NOT!
Oh dear, when are the Brits going to man up and actually offer a stable security arrangement for Europe, instead of relying on your former colonies’ blood and treasure?
Oh dear
one decent article and you’re back to talking twaddle
Note to Thomas Fazi and others: Having a bullying ultra-nationalist dictatorship such as the Putin regime as a neighbour clearly makes the attraction of membership of an organisation such as NATO obvious – or at least it should do. Presumably Finland and Sweden are now also guilty of provoking a legitimate Russian invasion by also becoming NATO members, their resistance to which would no doubt also be condemned as an “Obstacle to Peace”?
The only such “Obstacle to Peace” at present is Vladimir Putin’s indifference to human suffering in launching and doubling down on a war of conquest in order to gain control of a democratic neighbour who refused to do his bidding. It is also a little late for hand wringing over the use of cluster munitions in Ukraine after the Russians have been using these and virtually any other non-nuclear means since day one, and have mined and booby trapped occupied Ukrainian territory as a matter of course. Their use of indiscriminate rocket launched mining systems to slow the current Ukrainian counteroffensive being a perfect example.
Pompous denunciations of Jens Stoltenberg from Paul Keating are unsurprising as his world view, particularly where China and Russia are concerned, is seemingly stuck back in 1996, the last time he held office in Australia.
Mr Fazi is, however, is correct in questioning Ursula Von der Leyen’s suitability to be NATO’s next chief when the obvious choice was surely UK Minister of Defence and former army officer Ben Wallace, who has shown a clear headed and consistent approach to this war since the beginning, despite him (Mr. Fazi) shoehorning in yet another COVID conspiracy theory.
Please can we stop coming up with Ben Wallace as realistic candidate for Sec General of NATO?
That would require change of military structure, never mind being even more unrealistic after UK Brexit.
Uk general was always (if I recall) deputy commander of NATO.
Gen Secretary was from smaller European nation.
So even in this context Ursula bid for the post is bending the rules and should be vetoed by UK.
Please can we stop coming up with Ben Wallace as realistic candidate for Sec General of NATO?
That would require change of military structure, never mind being even more unrealistic after UK Brexit.
Uk general was always (if I recall) deputy commander of NATO.
Gen Secretary was from smaller European nation.
So even in this context Ursula bid for the post is bending the rules and should be vetoed by UK.
Note to Thomas Fazi and others: Having a bullying ultra-nationalist dictatorship such as the Putin regime as a neighbour clearly makes the attraction of membership of an organisation such as NATO obvious – or at least it should do. Presumably Finland and Sweden are now also guilty of provoking a legitimate Russian invasion by also becoming NATO members, their resistance to which would no doubt also be condemned as an “Obstacle to Peace”?
The only such “Obstacle to Peace” at present is Vladimir Putin’s indifference to human suffering in launching and doubling down on a war of conquest in order to gain control of a democratic neighbour who refused to do his bidding. It is also a little late for hand wringing over the use of cluster munitions in Ukraine after the Russians have been using these and virtually any other non-nuclear means since day one, and have mined and booby trapped occupied Ukrainian territory as a matter of course. Their use of indiscriminate rocket launched mining systems to slow the current Ukrainian counteroffensive being a perfect example.
Pompous denunciations of Jens Stoltenberg from Paul Keating are unsurprising as his world view, particularly where China and Russia are concerned, is seemingly stuck back in 1996, the last time he held office in Australia.
Mr Fazi is, however, is correct in questioning Ursula Von der Leyen’s suitability to be NATO’s next chief when the obvious choice was surely UK Minister of Defence and former army officer Ben Wallace, who has shown a clear headed and consistent approach to this war since the beginning, despite him (Mr. Fazi) shoehorning in yet another COVID conspiracy theory.
The mind boggles.
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans or our devastating economy and inflation, veterans who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities.
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine?
The mind boggles. God help us all.
Save your hand wringing.
Nukes are only good to deter other nukes. Russia and the US have lost many wars in the past.
Not once has either seriously considered using nukes to stave off defeat.
Indeed, the only time when anything like that was when the paranoid Soviets idiotically concluded that the Able Archer exercise was cover for an all out US attack.
Even then, they didn’t launch a first strike.
They may be stupid, but not crazy.
Oh well, nothing to worry about then. Your confidence in the resolve of leaders on both sides to forego the nuclear option is touching but wholly unrealistic. One of them probably doesn’t know the difference between the nuclear button and his alarm clock.
It isn’t “resolve,” it’s fear for their own and their nation’s safety. Unless you think PUtin is crazy.
Do you?
And if the best you can do is to use that hoary meme about Joe’s senility, you’re really saying you can’t think of a coherent response.
It isn’t “resolve,” it’s fear for their own and their nation’s safety. Unless you think PUtin is crazy.
Do you?
And if the best you can do is to use that hoary meme about Joe’s senility, you’re really saying you can’t think of a coherent response.
Oh well, nothing to worry about then. Your confidence in the resolve of leaders on both sides to forego the nuclear option is touching but wholly unrealistic. One of them probably doesn’t know the difference between the nuclear button and his alarm clock.
Save your hand wringing.
Nukes are only good to deter other nukes. Russia and the US have lost many wars in the past.
Not once has either seriously considered using nukes to stave off defeat.
Indeed, the only time when anything like that was when the paranoid Soviets idiotically concluded that the Able Archer exercise was cover for an all out US attack.
Even then, they didn’t launch a first strike.
They may be stupid, but not crazy.
The mind boggles.
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans or our devastating economy and inflation, veterans who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities.
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine?
The mind boggles. God help us all.
NATO isn’t working for peace and freedom and there isn’t a western government doing it either. I don’t know anybody who wants a war, so why is our government so enthusiastic about supporting one in Ukraine? The obvious answer is that the military-industrial complex controls the governments.
Yes, this is indeed true. The military-industrial complex controls nearly EVERY facet of American life, honestly–including the insane Covid response.
Bravo!
Bravo!
Yes, this is indeed true. The military-industrial complex controls nearly EVERY facet of American life, honestly–including the insane Covid response.
NATO isn’t working for peace and freedom and there isn’t a western government doing it either. I don’t know anybody who wants a war, so why is our government so enthusiastic about supporting one in Ukraine? The obvious answer is that the military-industrial complex controls the governments.
I agree with most of what Mr. Fazi has written. America and the west’s moral grandstanding after their invasions and bombings of so many other countries is outrageous and is seen as such by the rest of the world.
It should be understood that Russia does NOT want conflict with the West,. The goal of the Putin/Medvedev presidencies has been internally-focused – to renew and unify Russia. The invasion (limited and small scale, initially) was launched after all other options had been exhausted. If Russia had not struck in February 2022, Ukraine would have struck in March 2022 and overrun the separatist Donbas republics.
The question is – what happens now? There is NO sign that Russia has any inclination to suddenly give up and withdraw. To the contrary, it is building its strength and massing forces while the Ukrainian army exhausts itself in a hopeless and bloody “counteroffensive”, cheered on by the West.
The answer is that Russia, as it stands, will swallow all of Ukraine and it will effectively cease to exist. What incentive does Russia have to leave any of it, even Galicia, independent, if it will immediately become a NATO member, with forward deployments of American troops on Russia’s borders?
NATO is signing Ukraine’s death warrant.
So basically we should just stand back and allow genocide of whole nation?
Russia has track record here. Remember Holodomor or Katyn or genocide of Tatars in Crimea?
I am tired of posting here about results of Ukrainian independence referendum.
Over 83% in Donbass and Luhansk and 54% in Crimea.
There was never majority for this regions to be part of Russia.
You are just repeating Russian propaganda.
Obviously some people reply, referendums don’t matter, unless they are Russian ones after ethnic cleansing.
So basically we should just stand back and allow genocide of whole nation?
Russia has track record here. Remember Holodomor or Katyn or genocide of Tatars in Crimea?
I am tired of posting here about results of Ukrainian independence referendum.
Over 83% in Donbass and Luhansk and 54% in Crimea.
There was never majority for this regions to be part of Russia.
You are just repeating Russian propaganda.
Obviously some people reply, referendums don’t matter, unless they are Russian ones after ethnic cleansing.
I agree with most of what Mr. Fazi has written. America and the west’s moral grandstanding after their invasions and bombings of so many other countries is outrageous and is seen as such by the rest of the world.
It should be understood that Russia does NOT want conflict with the West,. The goal of the Putin/Medvedev presidencies has been internally-focused – to renew and unify Russia. The invasion (limited and small scale, initially) was launched after all other options had been exhausted. If Russia had not struck in February 2022, Ukraine would have struck in March 2022 and overrun the separatist Donbas republics.
The question is – what happens now? There is NO sign that Russia has any inclination to suddenly give up and withdraw. To the contrary, it is building its strength and massing forces while the Ukrainian army exhausts itself in a hopeless and bloody “counteroffensive”, cheered on by the West.
The answer is that Russia, as it stands, will swallow all of Ukraine and it will effectively cease to exist. What incentive does Russia have to leave any of it, even Galicia, independent, if it will immediately become a NATO member, with forward deployments of American troops on Russia’s borders?
NATO is signing Ukraine’s death warrant.
Thanks again, Thomas, for cutting through the crap with a well-cited analysis. As far as I have read, your detractors have failed to provide any clear counter-evidence.
Thanks again, Thomas, for cutting through the crap with a well-cited analysis. As far as I have read, your detractors have failed to provide any clear counter-evidence.
It delights me that Unherd publishes Mr Fazi. He states a perspective shared by many on the left. His clarity, for me, is the finest confirmation of the disingenuous selectivity of his arguments, and the comments point out the flaws.
It delights me that Unherd publishes Mr Fazi. He states a perspective shared by many on the left. His clarity, for me, is the finest confirmation of the disingenuous selectivity of his arguments, and the comments point out the flaws.
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Russia is an imperialist nation, which under Putin wants to return to the pre-1917 borders. The Poles, Finns and the Baltic states are supporting Ukraine because they know they are next.
Russia is an imperialist nation, which under Putin wants to return to the pre-1917 borders. The Poles, Finns and the Baltic states are supporting Ukraine because they know they are next.
“….How do we bring an end to the war?”
Having posed the question, Mr Fazi does not give an answer. As Mr Biden said, “We’re at war with Russia.” and we did not start this war. Russia has been waging a hybrid war against the West for decades in the belief that security is somehow a finite commodity and only by promoting insecurity in the West can Russia feel more secure.
The war now has a hot spot in Ukraine and may well escalate so that NATO becomes further embroiled. But what is the ‘off-ramp’ for such a scenario? Appeasing Russia by giving it half of Ukraine? As Winston Churchill said, “An appeaser is someone who feeds the crocodile in the hope that he will be eaten last!”
Sorry Mr Fazi, but Russia started this war (yes, it did) and the only way Russia is going to stop the war is by giving it no alternative but to take it tanks home and call it a day. Then, we need a big enough stick to make sure Russia’s tanks sit rusting in storage somewhere in Siberia rather than bullying some smaller nation into submitting to Russia’s will.
That stick is called NATO.
“….How do we bring an end to the war?”
Having posed the question, Mr Fazi does not give an answer. As Mr Biden said, “We’re at war with Russia.” and we did not start this war. Russia has been waging a hybrid war against the West for decades in the belief that security is somehow a finite commodity and only by promoting insecurity in the West can Russia feel more secure.
The war now has a hot spot in Ukraine and may well escalate so that NATO becomes further embroiled. But what is the ‘off-ramp’ for such a scenario? Appeasing Russia by giving it half of Ukraine? As Winston Churchill said, “An appeaser is someone who feeds the crocodile in the hope that he will be eaten last!”
Sorry Mr Fazi, but Russia started this war (yes, it did) and the only way Russia is going to stop the war is by giving it no alternative but to take it tanks home and call it a day. Then, we need a big enough stick to make sure Russia’s tanks sit rusting in storage somewhere in Siberia rather than bullying some smaller nation into submitting to Russia’s will.
That stick is called NATO.
Congratuations to Unherd for publishing this article. In my experience, the hardest area to get conservatives to do some serious thinking is in security matters. The attachment to alliances runs deep on the political Right, despite Thomas Jefferson’s wonderful mantra that might have defined conservatism in international affairs but didn’t:”Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none”. Ukraine is surely testament to the danger of “entangling alliances” in world affairs.Those alliances created the tension in Ukraine, they enable the current war to proceed, but they are utterly incapable of ending it.
Congratuations to Unherd for publishing this article. In my experience, the hardest area to get conservatives to do some serious thinking is in security matters. The attachment to alliances runs deep on the political Right, despite Thomas Jefferson’s wonderful mantra that might have defined conservatism in international affairs but didn’t:”Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none”. Ukraine is surely testament to the danger of “entangling alliances” in world affairs.Those alliances created the tension in Ukraine, they enable the current war to proceed, but they are utterly incapable of ending it.
Tankies gonna tank.
Pleasantly surprised by the reaction in the comments though.
Tankies gonna tank.
Pleasantly surprised by the reaction in the comments though.
I haven’t bothered to read the article as just by reading a few random sentences I can see it’s crap. I can tell you what mindset leads to war, though. It’s the Putin mindset, when it isn’t sufficiently challenged or resisted, as it wasn’t until 2022. Thank God NATO is getting its act together at last. The sooner Ukraine joins the better.
ahhh… but it is not: the vast majority of Nato countries have no recent warfare experience, and low military efficiency and discipline.. in short a useless rabble.
You are right.
But then people on here complain that America keeps fighting wars.
How can you have trained fighting force without fighting wars?
Maybe that is why Xi shut up about invading Taiwan (apart from other internal problems).
You are VSP–a Very Stupid Person. Of course you Brits want Americans to keep fighting forever wars. We’ve saved your ass now, what, twice, three times? Lazy f-ers the lot of you, who don’t want to even make your own security arrangements to protect yourselves.
You are VSP–a Very Stupid Person. Of course you Brits want Americans to keep fighting forever wars. We’ve saved your ass now, what, twice, three times? Lazy f-ers the lot of you, who don’t want to even make your own security arrangements to protect yourselves.
You are right.
But then people on here complain that America keeps fighting wars.
How can you have trained fighting force without fighting wars?
Maybe that is why Xi shut up about invading Taiwan (apart from other internal problems).
I’m unsubscribing. I’m sick of this utter shite being emailed out to me all the time and the “herd’ of Russia sympatisers which pollute the comments.
Don’t unsubscribe, I too loathe Mr Fazi’s double – speak and lack of morality, BUT I want to be informed about the positions of such people who want to leave Ukrainians to die, or be serfs. How else can I be prepared o argue for the rejection of their views? Unherd is not a “safe space” and I don’t want it to be
Sigh, another bloodthirsty Brit who’d rather the U.S. do their fighting for them, I presume? And to also support your security arrangements with our treasure? Pox on all of you.
Stop being so grumpy.
‘You’ did well enough out of Lend-Lease and the Neutrality Acts to last for a century.
Also after the abomination that was the Iraq War who would ever believe a word you said anyway?
All in all a bad report, you will have to improve for all our sakes. Just shouting USA, USA, just doesn’t cut it anymore.
This isn’t clever or funny. 1 out of 10.
This isn’t clever or funny. 1 out of 10.
Stop being so grumpy.
‘You’ did well enough out of Lend-Lease and the Neutrality Acts to last for a century.
Also after the abomination that was the Iraq War who would ever believe a word you said anyway?
All in all a bad report, you will have to improve for all our sakes. Just shouting USA, USA, just doesn’t cut it anymore.
Yes, very sensible approach.
Heaving disgusting left views published is what Unherd is for.
If people think this is too much, read Novara Media.
Sigh, another bloodthirsty Brit who’d rather the U.S. do their fighting for them, I presume? And to also support your security arrangements with our treasure? Pox on all of you.
Yes, very sensible approach.
Heaving disgusting left views published is what Unherd is for.
If people think this is too much, read Novara Media.
Don’t unsubscribe: you need to know what these other people are saying and thinking, unpalatable to you though these arguments are. If you don’t know, you can’t counter-argue.
Poor, deluded, soul, who can’t begin to get our of their stupid box of ad-hominems and delusions about people who legitimately want peace as “Putin” lovers. You are just as bad as all the people who called my “far right” for opposing the Covid madness in America. Pox on all of you.
Der, “sympatisers”
“Pox on all of you”. Come on that’s boring repetition, can’t you think of something more original?
Perhaps ‘to hell with the lot of you’? Or the American equivalent, if there is one.*
(* May I assume from your intemperate posts that you have the unmitigated misfortune to be an American? Sadly there is NO known cure.)
I’d give this a 3 out of 10?
I’d give this a 3 out of 10?
“Pox on all of you”. Come on that’s boring repetition, can’t you think of something more original?
Perhaps ‘to hell with the lot of you’? Or the American equivalent, if there is one.*
(* May I assume from your intemperate posts that you have the unmitigated misfortune to be an American? Sadly there is NO known cure.)
Understandable, but I agree with Belinda.
Don’t unsubscribe, I too loathe Mr Fazi’s double – speak and lack of morality, BUT I want to be informed about the positions of such people who want to leave Ukrainians to die, or be serfs. How else can I be prepared o argue for the rejection of their views? Unherd is not a “safe space” and I don’t want it to be
Don’t unsubscribe: you need to know what these other people are saying and thinking, unpalatable to you though these arguments are. If you don’t know, you can’t counter-argue.
Poor, deluded, soul, who can’t begin to get our of their stupid box of ad-hominems and delusions about people who legitimately want peace as “Putin” lovers. You are just as bad as all the people who called my “far right” for opposing the Covid madness in America. Pox on all of you.
Der, “sympatisers”
Understandable, but I agree with Belinda.
ahhh… but it is not: the vast majority of Nato countries have no recent warfare experience, and low military efficiency and discipline.. in short a useless rabble.
I’m unsubscribing. I’m sick of this utter shite being emailed out to me all the time and the “herd’ of Russia sympatisers which pollute the comments.
I haven’t bothered to read the article as just by reading a few random sentences I can see it’s crap. I can tell you what mindset leads to war, though. It’s the Putin mindset, when it isn’t sufficiently challenged or resisted, as it wasn’t until 2022. Thank God NATO is getting its act together at last. The sooner Ukraine joins the better.
Is that the same Paul Keating who criticised Britain’s decision not to defend Australia from the Japanese in WWII ?
Is that the same Paul Keating who criticised Britain’s decision not to defend Australia from the Japanese in WWII ?
Ukraine joining NATO before a negotiated ceasefire would mean we just wasted ‘000s of young lives for nothing in that ‘we’ NATO should have stepped in 15 months ago and said ‘NO” to Putin. If some have forgotten why that was a bad idea at the time you don’t deserve to comment.
Ukraine joining NATO before a negotiated ceasefire would mean we just wasted ‘000s of young lives for nothing in that ‘we’ NATO should have stepped in 15 months ago and said ‘NO” to Putin. If some have forgotten why that was a bad idea at the time you don’t deserve to comment.
I wonder if this teenager has ever met an Estonian.
I wonder if this teenager has ever met an Estonian.
Dear Thomas et al
Is it all due to the Great Satan
And his coterie of flunkies?
What of the old rival, contending anew?
And ambitious new ghouls?
Why, with selfless generosity
They too show us where to apportion blame
As they slake their thirst
On the blood of others
Yes, it is all due to the Great Satan
And his coterie of flunkies.
Dear Thomas et al
Is it all due to the Great Satan
And his coterie of flunkies?
What of the old rival, contending anew?
And ambitious new ghouls?
Why, with selfless generosity
They too show us where to apportion blame
As they slake their thirst
On the blood of others
Yes, it is all due to the Great Satan
And his coterie of flunkies.
reposted in error
Absolute garbage. A Putin admirer and Moscow apologist. If UNHERD keeps publishing garbage like this, I will unsubscribe.
Well, unsubscribe then. You warmongerers are all the same, blood-thirsty until the end; don’t call me when your face starts melting off from the nuclear sheen.
Pathetic Russian stooge.
So Putin is peace maker?
You are the one who is pathetic, all you can do is all those of us who want something different in the U.S. aside from forever wars and a further damaged society because of said forever wars as “far-right” “Putin-lovers” etc. Pathetic. Shallow. Stupid. I call you VSP–for Very Stupid People. No ability to even engage in the kinds of complex thinking surrounding international relations or diplomacy and bloodthirsty to the very end.
You are the one who is pathetic, all you can do is all those of us who want something different in the U.S. aside from forever wars and a further damaged society because of said forever wars as “far-right” “Putin-lovers” etc. Pathetic. Shallow. Stupid. I call you VSP–for Very Stupid People. No ability to even engage in the kinds of complex thinking surrounding international relations or diplomacy and bloodthirsty to the very end.
Daftest response ever made to a frustrated subscriber. Shame on you!
Pathetic Russian stooge.
So Putin is peace maker?
Daftest response ever made to a frustrated subscriber. Shame on you!
Please do. You’ll no doubt be happier reading the party line propaganda vomited daily by the BBC.
I am happy for this rubbish being published.
It just shows how disgusting left is.
No problem with dictators and hundred millions of deaths.
We are striving for better world.
A better world? Come to America to see our homeless encampments, the product of 40 years of forever wars and neoliberalism and then you will think twice about the “spreading of liberal democracy” through violent and immoral “liberal interventionism.” Come to the heart of LA and then you will stop being such a whiny little b***h.
A better world? Come to America to see our homeless encampments, the product of 40 years of forever wars and neoliberalism and then you will think twice about the “spreading of liberal democracy” through violent and immoral “liberal interventionism.” Come to the heart of LA and then you will stop being such a whiny little b***h.
Well, unsubscribe then. You warmongerers are all the same, blood-thirsty until the end; don’t call me when your face starts melting off from the nuclear sheen.
Please do. You’ll no doubt be happier reading the party line propaganda vomited daily by the BBC.
I am happy for this rubbish being published.
It just shows how disgusting left is.
No problem with dictators and hundred millions of deaths.
We are striving for better world.
Absolute garbage. A Putin admirer and Moscow apologist. If UNHERD keeps publishing garbage like this, I will unsubscribe.
Your logic and likely willfully misunderstood use of statistics is atrocious.
Your logic and likely willfully misunderstood use of statistics is atrocious.
Crooked murderous colonial aggressor who denies that Ukraine exists invades with 200,000 troops leads to war, you Putin suck-up.
Crooked murderous colonial aggressor who denies that Ukraine exists invades with 200,000 troops leads to war, you Putin suck-up.
A few arguable points until you started using Paul Keating as a source. Blokes a complete and utter muppet and your arguments don’t stand scrutiny. At least up to the Keating quotes- then I gave up.
A few arguable points until you started using Paul Keating as a source. Blokes a complete and utter muppet and your arguments don’t stand scrutiny. At least up to the Keating quotes- then I gave up.
“On the contrary, some are convinced that Nato provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by aggressively expanding eastward, systematically ignoring Russia’s warnings over the years.”
Even Fazi baulks at personally endorsing this drivel.
“On the contrary, some are convinced that Nato provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by aggressively expanding eastward, systematically ignoring Russia’s warnings over the years.”
Even Fazi baulks at personally endorsing this drivel.
we are committing suicide in slow motion
we are committing suicide in slow motion
Everything Mr Fazi says is true; it’s just the imputed conclusion is wrong. Russia can’t be permitted to take over Ukraine, simples. The fact that NATO is US dominated, the fact that the war serves interests other than Ukraine’s and Russia’s, the fact the the saintly Ursula is useless, etc. etc., all these are irrelevant to the conclusion that needs to be drawn.
Everything Mr Fazi says is true; it’s just the imputed conclusion is wrong. Russia can’t be permitted to take over Ukraine, simples. The fact that NATO is US dominated, the fact that the war serves interests other than Ukraine’s and Russia’s, the fact the the saintly Ursula is useless, etc. etc., all these are irrelevant to the conclusion that needs to be drawn.
The fears of a Russian nuclear strike expressed by many below simply ignores the facts.
Russia has used up nearly all of its nuclear-capable cruise missiles. Those newly produced are used to attack little old grannies in Kyiv.
Putin’s advisers wouldn’t dare allow him to keep using them if he had even the slightest intention of using nukes.
So go ahead and get a kick out of the thought of nuclear war. It’s better than using most hard drugs.
But don’t expect anyone else to attend the party.
The fears of a Russian nuclear strike expressed by many below simply ignores the facts.
Russia has used up nearly all of its nuclear-capable cruise missiles. Those newly produced are used to attack little old grannies in Kyiv.
Putin’s advisers wouldn’t dare allow him to keep using them if he had even the slightest intention of using nukes.
So go ahead and get a kick out of the thought of nuclear war. It’s better than using most hard drugs.
But don’t expect anyone else to attend the party.
It’s absolutely amazing that people think like this author.
It’s absolutely amazing that people think like this author.
No to NATO Yes to peace? Why does this remind me of Neville Chamberlain’s Peace in our time -(well, for almost a year at any rate)? Need I add that Fazi’s silence regarding Russian fascism and the very clear parallels between Russia’s aggression and German fascism is deafening. Fazi may regard himself as Left but this is a description I reject. Pseudo or fey left is closer to the mark. Fazi’s politics, in so far as it relates to Ukraine resistance, Russian aggression and NATO is simply reactionary.
No to NATO Yes to peace? Why does this remind me of Neville Chamberlain’s Peace in our time -(well, for almost a year at any rate)? Need I add that Fazi’s silence regarding Russian fascism and the very clear parallels between Russia’s aggression and German fascism is deafening. Fazi may regard himself as Left but this is a description I reject. Pseudo or fey left is closer to the mark. Fazi’s politics, in so far as it relates to Ukraine resistance, Russian aggression and NATO is simply reactionary.
Fazi raises some interesting points and a some questions too. The accepted narrative of Russia/Ukraine seems to be that everyone thought that the invasion would be over in a month – not enough time for the EU to mobilize any assistance and besides, Russia’s rusty remnants of their Soviet-era military couldn’t last any longer than a month anyway. Then it seems a combination of Ukraine resistance and Russian incompetence has lead to this drawn out Stalingrad-esque battle. Russia has found a way to wage war and survive economic sanctions.
My question is what were the key players – the EU, NATO and the US doing before the invasion when Putin was stacking the border with his forces? Was there no inclination or commitment from the West to ‘draw a line in the sand’ and stop this before it got started? It must have occurred to someone that if Putin ever set up shop in Ukraine it would be a heck of a job getting him out which is exactly where we are now. Putin is many unsavoury things but he isn’t stupid. You don’t survive this long in the back-stabbing world of the KGB and then Russian politics by being an idiot.
Now other Russian neighbours are scrambling to join NATO to ensure defense in the event of attack but is NATO precluded from preventing attacks in the first place? Are they even capable? Is anyone confident that Ukraine would be safe as houses right now if only they a NATO member?
And who exactly runs NATO? The obvious answer seems to be the US. I know Canada doesn’t count – half of our meager collection of Afghan-era Leopard tanks are used to supply spare parts for the other half. EU members of NATO don’t seem to be doing a lot better.
A common saying is that the only thing better than a Bad Guy With a Gun is a Good Guy With a Gun. NATO is supposed to be the Good Guy but if it doesn’t have a gun or refuses to use the one it does have then what’s the point? Where’s the incentive for the Bad Guys to think twice before they do something silly?
For those who are unaware of the only route to peace, may I lovingly introduce you to Jesus Christ the Prince of Peace. World leaders have led nations into conflict and to the brink of war, the inevitable result of kicking God out of the Park and thus ignoring His laws and His Son Their actions impudence and incompetence find them adrift in their boats on oceans at the behest of the strongest tides: First here, then there but forever getting closer to the rocks that await to wreck and destroy. It is time to put down the anchor hold onto the rock of all ages and set sails with the helm firmly in control of the Master. The consequences of anything else are horrendous.
For those who are unaware of the only route to peace, may I lovingly introduce you to Jesus Christ the Prince of Peace. World leaders have led nations into conflict and to the brink of war, the inevitable result of kicking God out of the Park and thus ignoring His laws and His Son Their actions impudence and incompetence find them adrift in their boats on oceans at the behest of the strongest tides: First here, then there but forever getting closer to the rocks that await to wreck and destroy. It is time to put down the anchor hold onto the rock of all ages and set sails with the helm firmly in control of the Master. The consequences of anything else are horrendous.
Fazi raises some interesting points and a some questions too. The accepted narrative of Russia/Ukraine seems to be that everyone thought that the invasion would be over in a month – not enough time for the EU to mobilize any assistance and besides, Russia’s rusty remnants of their Soviet-era military couldn’t last any longer than a month anyway. Then it seems a combination of Ukraine resistance and Russian incompetence has lead to this drawn out Stalingrad-esque battle. Russia has found a way to wage war and survive economic sanctions.
My question is what were the key players – the EU, NATO and the US doing before the invasion when Putin was stacking the border with his forces? Was there no inclination or commitment from the West to ‘draw a line in the sand’ and stop this before it got started? It must have occurred to someone that if Putin ever set up shop in Ukraine it would be a heck of a job getting him out which is exactly where we are now. Putin is many unsavoury things but he isn’t stupid. You don’t survive this long in the back-stabbing world of the KGB and then Russian politics by being an idiot.
Now other Russian neighbours are scrambling to join NATO to ensure defense in the event of attack but is NATO precluded from preventing attacks in the first place? Are they even capable? Is anyone confident that Ukraine would be safe as houses right now if only they a NATO member?
And who exactly runs NATO? The obvious answer seems to be the US. I know Canada doesn’t count – half of our meager collection of Afghan-era Leopard tanks are used to supply spare parts for the other half. EU members of NATO don’t seem to be doing a lot better.
A common saying is that the only thing better than a Bad Guy With a Gun is a Good Guy With a Gun. NATO is supposed to be the Good Guy but if it doesn’t have a gun or refuses to use the one it does have then what’s the point? Where’s the incentive for the Bad Guys to think twice before they do something silly?