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The Luton estate that made Andrew Tate Crime, violence and a serial abuser stalked Marsh Farm

Tate escaped the grinding nihilism of Marsh Farm

Tate escaped the grinding nihilism of Marsh Farm


July 29, 2023   9 mins

Two years before the Tates moved to Marsh Farm, there was a riot — followed by a rave. It was July 1995: a summer of drought, Tory civil war, and three nights of anarchy on an estate in Luton. After a 13-year-old tearaway was forcefully arrested, 500 people attacked armed police officers with petrol bombs, bottles and bricks. A school was set on fire; shops were looted; a police officer was stabbed. And then the party started.

On Saturday night, as police patrolled and harassed residents, Exodus, a local collective, put out the message that a rave was taking place outside of town, hoping to lure the rioters out of Marsh Farm. “It looked like Vietnam,” one of the organisers tells me, “and we wanted to fix that.” And, by and large, they did. Just before sunrise on Sunday, he received a call to say that Marsh Farm had gone silent, but for the birdsong and the shuffling of riot police on empty streets.

“It was beautiful,” he says. The ecstasy of the rave had soothed the disorder. Marsh Farm had been saved. But after the party, the comedown.

By the time Andrew Tate moved to Marsh Farm from Chicago aged 11, it was the “worst area of the worst town” in England. He has spoken about his “brokie days” on the estate: about growing up on welfare with his newly divorced mother and two younger siblings; and about defying the odds to become a millionaire kickboxing champion and “the most Googled man on the planet” (he’s eighth). If Andrew Tate has an origin story, it starts here.

Today, the self-styled “King of Toxic Masculinity” is in Romania on house arrest, charged with rape, human trafficking and forming an organised crime group to sexually exploit women. To many, he is the man who said that women should bear responsibility for being raped. To his legions of young, male fans, though, he is a Nietzschean superman whose journey — and success — is the ultimate lesson: understand his self-discipline, drive and ambition, and learn how you, too, can become like him. For them, his biography is gospel.

“English people are the most violent people in the world,” Tate said in a video last year. And Marsh Farm lends itself to violence. Tucked away on the margins of Luton town, the sprawling estate, now home to around 10,000 people, is dominated by three 15-storey tower blocks, their residents watching over a disproportionately deprived and unemployed warren that stretches for almost a mile.

“Crime was just an everyday occurrence,” someone who grew up on Marsh Farm at the same time as Tate tells me. You had no choice but to accept it. “If the other residents thought you were a grass or too nosy, you would be burnt out. Your car would be burnt. Your property would be burnt. You would have paint put on your house saying ‘grass’.” I’m told it was completely normal for petrol to be poured through someone’s letterbox and lit with a match.

Marsh Farm’s Lea Manor High School offered little respite. When Tate arrived there in 1997, the school was in special measures and due to be closed.“It was mayhem,” says one of his former classmates. In one incident, a boy stabbed another with a pair of scissors; during another, pupils set fire to the art department. If their behaviour was brazen, that’s because they knew they could get away with it. “Students would drive to school in stolen cars — and then drive on to the sports fields and start doing handbrake turns during school hours.”

Where was Tate during all this? “Andrew,” the friend explains, “would be a part of the crowd that was the furthest away and closest to the exit.” He was, as he adapted to life on Marsh Farm, a shy, unassured child: “He was quiet”; “he wasn’t like he was now”; “I wouldn’t call Andrew a geek, but he wasn’t in the cool group.” Back then, he found comfort on the fringes, content with playing with his PokĂ©mon cards and keeping away from the chaos for as long as possible, which wasn’t very long.

“He had this American accent,” the friend continues. “And everyone would take the absolute piss out of him all the time. He always used to say ‘Oh my god!’ in a really strong accent and everyone would go for him.” Then, after a few months, a boy started to tease Tate in science class — and he flipped. “I remember Andrew giving him a few punches to the face,” the friend tells me. “Everyone was like ‘Fucking hell! Andrew has lost it!’ After that, Andrew started to behave like a different person. He became a rebel and that made a bit of a cred for him.” Another classmate describes how he remembers Tate swearing at a teacher. “He knew that was how you get respected,” he says. “That’s when the change started. If you can talk the talk and walk the walk, that’s when success comes.”

So Tate learned to swagger. He often describes how, when his family moved to England, he became the “man of the house”. Clinging on to the high of that first fight, he decided what kind of “man” he wanted to be: one who gets what he wants. His friends describe how, at around this time, they used to wistfully watch other residents driving through Marsh Farm in Lamborghinis and Ferraris, desperate to join their ranks. “However, as we got older,” one explains, “we found out it was bullshit. It was just people renting the cars for weddings and whatever else.”

Unlike the others, though, Tate clung on to that dream, partying hard but also working hard to drag himself up. He worked on a fish stall; he sold windows and solar panels; he even returned to Lea Manor High, working as an IT technician before being fired after having sex with the Head Girl.

He thrived, meanwhile, in Luton’s kickboxing rings, a sport he’d taken up in 2005. There, he was King Cobra, who within four years was ranked number one in his division in Europe. But success in the ring wasn’t enough — unless it was garlanded with some sort of status symbol, it was meaningless. “I still remember the day when he bought his Aston Martin DB9,” a friend says, after Tate won ÂŁ10,000 in a fight. “That was when we started to call him ‘Top G’ [“Top Gangster”]. Because here was a Marsh Farm guy who was renting a one-bedroom flat with his brother — and now he was driving an Aston Martin. He was just starting his businesses and he wasn’t doing fantastic, but he wanted that look. And that is exactly what he got.”

For many, this is where Tate’s first chapter ends and the next begins. And if the first was about aspiration, the next was about escape. He launched a lucrative cam-girl business; he became a four-time kickboxing world champion. When he appeared on Big Brother in 2016, his biography said: “Andrew believes that a man should be able to sleep with as many women as he wants to, but that does not apply to women.”

He then moved to Romania, a place where “corruption is far more accessible” and the #MeToo era had not “destroyed the safety of men”. There, in a warehouse outside of Bucharest, he built a palace and filled it with women, supercars and dumbbells — a monument to his belief that, regardless of where you come from, self-belief and conviction can make you a God. Tate founded an online university where he preached his message. “You are either a disciplined individual or undisciplined individual,” as he would say. “You’re a G when you suffer.” That is the gospel, according to TikTok.

But is it true? What about those boys left behind in Luton? Well, many of them suffered but few became Gs. Tate was “one of the lucky ones”, his childhood friend admits when I ask about the rest of their class. He wasn’t drawn into petty crime. He left. And the unlucky ones? Some are unemployed; others sell drugs for a living. Others were snared by the sordid Carson Grimes.

“What about those boys left behind in Luton?”

“Everyone knew about that guy,” Tate’s classmate tells me. “He didn’t actually live in Marsh Farm, but he was the man you went to with stolen goods.” Theft was the least of it. What a handful of local boys knew then, and everyone knows now, is that Grimes was also a modern-day Fagin; a serial abuser, groomer and rapist.

The majority of Grimes’s victims were boys aged between 10 and 14, already lured from broken homes into the peripheries of Luton’s underworld. From there, Grimes drew them into his vortex, promising gifts of money, food and a home that was safe. They were given alcohol and cannabis, and then crack and heroin — it was intended to make them weak; to numb them. Like Tate, these boys were trying to escape. Perhaps, for a moment, they thought they had.

“Andrew and I were in year seven or eight, and it was mainly happening with the year 11 lot,” the friend says. Whether they knew it or not, they would have known at least one of Grimes’s victims; one schoolmate at Lea Manor who remembers Tate only recently told his family that he had been abused. Twenty years later, he is an alcoholic and suffers from severe depression.

Grimes was at his most predatory in the early 2000s, yet was only arrested in 2018. He was jailed in 2021, convicted of 36 offences against nine children: “class-based stereotypes and prejudice” had “deprived his survivors of justice for many years”, said a detective on the case. Their murky pasts — addictions, criminal records, spells in prison — made them unreliable. Would a jury believe them? And so the authorities looked at their bruises and looked away. Since Grimes’s conviction, at least 11 more victims have come forward. Few doubt that there will be more.

Today, Grimes still haunts Marsh Farm: in both the lives of his victims and the malign current that crackles through any defiled community. Yet when I ask residents if they remember him and his house of horrors, they often look confused: “Which one was he?” One man starts telling me about the paedophile living a few roads away. Another mentions a man who stares at children on buses.

“Women and children can’t walk through the woods at night because of all the stuff that goes on,” says a mother waiting to pick up her 10-year-old daughter from school. “A woman got attacked by two men near here a couple of months ago.” One of the teachers tells me she is hoping to leave the area: “I don’t want my child growing up around here.”

It’s not just that the estate is unsafe, she says, but that there is no community. “People are no longer organised together,” one resident tells me. Even in the Nineties, another explains, “if a woman was being attacked, every man would beat up that person”. Today, “the first thing someone would do would be to pull out their phone and film it”. And this sense of societal breakdown is now built into Marsh Farm. Five years ago, the only pub on the estate was replaced with more council housing; a small shopping centre and market were also knocked down, while almost every parent I speak to bemoans the absence of a community centre for their children.

Amid such fragmentation, criminal activity on Marsh Farm has become more atomised, too. Gangs still operate, but mainly fight with rivals on other estates. Occasionally, Marsh Farm is targeted: cars are still burnt and gang shootings still take place in broad daylight — the most recent in April this year. Unlike in the Nineties, though, the daily outbursts of violence have been replaced by the anomie of low-level crime; adults offering you drugs; children offering you drugs; someone who has just injected themselves with drugs. Their pain is self-inflicted and aimless. A world of rioting has become one of withdrawal.

On Marsh Farm, this is the comedown that followed the rave. Little has been done to remedy it. In 2011, an old microwave factory on the estate was turned into a police station, but there is no front desk for people to report crime. Residents complain it is just for show, and almost everyone points out the miserly police presence on the streets. One shopkeeper across the road from the station tells me that, after his shop was robbed during the middle of the day, it took three days for the police to arrive. When I visit the terraced house where Tate grew up, and where his mother Eileen still lives, the road is empty, apart from a topless young man speeding a dirt bike up and down the cul-de-sac. “He’s always doing that,” a neighbour grumbles.

I later knock on Eileen’s door, though she doesn’t answer. Instead, her neighbour thrusts her head out of a window and demands that I leave. She tells me that Eileen doesn’t want to speak to journalists who “twist” the truth about her sons, so I post a note with my phone number on it. A few days later, a representative for Tate gets in touch to explain that he doesn’t want to comment.

Should we be surprised? Why challenge the gospel when it’s already been handed down? Andrew Tate escaped Marsh Farm; that’s all you need to know. His story is about how to escape — not those who can’t: those former schoolmates, the victims of a paedophile, or the five lost boys I find skulking around one of the estate’s parks. 

The youngest of them looked 13; at least one was high. When I ask them about Tate, they laugh uncontrollably, almost competitively. “Top Geeeeeee,” croaks one. “He’s just saying it how it is,” says another. “He’s just doing his own thing,” adds the croaker, before trying to sell me some drugs.

What does Tate’s gospel have to teach them? These lads spend their day staggering around Marsh Farm, looking for trouble and occasionally finding it. But that’s about it. Not a single Lamborghini or Ferrari drives past — and if one did? Like most of those boys before, they would gawp and croak, and then go back to doing nothing. There is no ambition. There is no hope. They are would-be rioters turned into zombies.

It is hard to imagine them being radicalised by Tate, let alone following him out of their estate. He is not their Pied Piper and they are not his rats — just boys paralysed by neglect. A lost generation, perhaps, but one that has no interest in being found. If Marsh Farm is where Tate’s gospel started, it is also where it ends.


Jacob Furedi is Deputy Editor of UnHerd.

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David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago

If it is possible for someone like Andrew Tate, coming from such a background to achieve what he has (dubious as that might be) – why do none our privileged politicians, and others in positions of power and advantage, have the will, energy and imagination to actually solve the social problems of which this is just a particularly bad example.

What is the point of Eton, Oxbridge and the rest if their products get bogged down in trivia that don’t matter, set targets they never achieve and let parts of the country drift out of control like this.

Ian Burns
Ian Burns
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

“The doctrine of the environment reduces man to an absolute nonentity, exempts him totally from every personal moral duty and from all independence, reduces him to the lowest form of slavery imaginable.”
“It’s very rare to find a person capable of handling his gift. The talent almost always enslaves its possessor, taking him, as it were, by the scruff of the neck and carrying him off far away from his proper path.”

ï»ż
Dostoyevsky (not A Tate)

Last edited 10 months ago by Ian Burns
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Ian Burns

Dostoevsky undoubtedly had talent, and was also capable of talking complete cobblers. A Tate, on the other hand, is a world supremo at talking cobblers, but has zero talent.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I have no idea why you describe that comment of Dostoyevsky’s as “complete cobblers”.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Fair enough. There were two of D’s comments. The first is so absolutist that it’s absurd. The second is D essentially talking about himself while nominally talking about others. He could write wonderful literature but couldn’t handle his talented life, which was an utter mess. But masses of highly, even astonishingly, talented people ultimately manage their talent perfectly well.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Fair enough. There were two of D’s comments. The first is so absolutist that it’s absurd. The second is D essentially talking about himself while nominally talking about others. He could write wonderful literature but couldn’t handle his talented life, which was an utter mess. But masses of highly, even astonishingly, talented people ultimately manage their talent perfectly well.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I have no idea why you describe that comment of Dostoyevsky’s as “complete cobblers”.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Ian Burns

Dostoevsky undoubtedly had talent, and was also capable of talking complete cobblers. A Tate, on the other hand, is a world supremo at talking cobblers, but has zero talent.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Andrew Buckley
Andrew Buckley
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Survival of the fittest is a simple reason.
Over the whole of history some people rise to the top of pile gaining money, strength or monopolising resources.
Competition is not a good idea so a simple fact of pulling up the ladder behind these people maintains them at the top of the pile.
Lip service is paid to “helping the disadvantaged” but little actual benefit ensues as this would be counter productive.
Two examples; house prices (and the insanity of such low interest rates for the past 10+ years). Those “with” (myself included) do very well, those “without” get further pushed down.
The socialist view of “not really black” when talking about someone from a group that is supposed to be disadvantaged but has the temerity not to accept this and do well.
Most of us just trying to enjoy some life, look after family and loved ones, take a reasonable view to supporting others, and other such efforts are, in my view, “bought” by various measures (low tax, low interest, cheap holidays, low waged “help” for our lives) simply to keep us quiescent and useful idiots to allow the real elites to prosper.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

This is pretty much the definition of ‘woke’ capitalism – ‘buying’ and ‘consuming’ your way to salvation. I noticed this recently in the US. There was a shop that was selling rainbow-colored LGQT sponge cakes made by members of some native-American tribe. And I just thought who cares where they come from? It’s more important that they taste good.
The same thing is happening with women’s football. It gets far more coverage than it deserves, so the media tells people who don’t like it that they are misogynists.
Swatch has another example of this. Their LGQBT watches didn’t go down too well in Malaysia, so now Swatch harangues its Malaysian customer-base for being homophobic. Homocapitalism: where you bully your customers into buying your products because not doing so means you are an ‘-ist’ of some kind.
Basically, big corporations are filling in the role of the Catholic church by telling us what is good and not good. It’s a weird kind of consumer-moralism that depends on a hive-mind mentality. Remember when everyone and their granny were doing the ALS water-bucket challenge and putting black squares in their FB avatar? This is the same kind of thing. People no longer think for themselves, but look first to see if their thoughts are permissible by the liberal mainstream.

Last edited 10 months ago by Julian Farrows
Dumetrius
Dumetrius
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

That is what happens when you let religion die.

It’s role doesn’t cease , the job is just taken up by things less suitable.

I am fighting a battle in a company that has taken on the strange ethos of it’s founder, a rich American called Ray Dalio.

His weird gospel of ‘radical transparency’ – a very American mix of chutzpah, down-home morals, cod-psychologising and bullshit – is destroying the company day by day.

Last edited 10 months ago by Dumetrius
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  Dumetrius

Bridgewater Associates.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  Dumetrius

Bridgewater Associates.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

If Swatch is doing that in Malaysia, it isn’t going to work as a marketing strategy!

You make it sound at least as if big business is genuine about having so-called “progressive values”.

Actually it is generally far more cynical than that – westerners (assumed to be more sympathetic to this political ideology) get one set of messages, consumers in Asian, African and Muslim states quite another.

However, I’m not exactly sure what this has to do with the article, which in this case is about the travails and bleakness of a largely white working class community.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

That is what happens when you let religion die.

It’s role doesn’t cease , the job is just taken up by things less suitable.

I am fighting a battle in a company that has taken on the strange ethos of it’s founder, a rich American called Ray Dalio.

His weird gospel of ‘radical transparency’ – a very American mix of chutzpah, down-home morals, cod-psychologising and bullshit – is destroying the company day by day.

Last edited 10 months ago by Dumetrius
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

If Swatch is doing that in Malaysia, it isn’t going to work as a marketing strategy!

You make it sound at least as if big business is genuine about having so-called “progressive values”.

Actually it is generally far more cynical than that – westerners (assumed to be more sympathetic to this political ideology) get one set of messages, consumers in Asian, African and Muslim states quite another.

However, I’m not exactly sure what this has to do with the article, which in this case is about the travails and bleakness of a largely white working class community.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

I think you’re confusing ‘fittest’ with ‘strongest’.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

You aren’t actually addressing the question David Morley raises. “Survival of the fittest” is a Darwinian concept describing simply a key mechanism of biological evolution. There is a very dubious history of applying this to individuals within human society.

I also don’t agree that a measure of competition in society is not a good idea – see the entire disastrous history of Communist thought and ideology, leading to the deaths of tens of millions – far outkilling even the National Socialists.

However constrained and controlled market competition, and providing the conditions for talented people to do well (which also helps the test of us!), is hardly equivalent to letting the conditions for mass gang violence become rooted – – throwing communities effectively under the bus with neglect.

It is tragic (but also not glibly easy to solve), that someone like Andrew Tate, who obviously actually had some talent and entrepreneurial flair, should go down the disastrous route (even for himself) of trying to be the top gangster. Romania hasn’t proven to be the patriarchal paradise he imagined.

Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew Fisher
Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

This is pretty much the definition of ‘woke’ capitalism – ‘buying’ and ‘consuming’ your way to salvation. I noticed this recently in the US. There was a shop that was selling rainbow-colored LGQT sponge cakes made by members of some native-American tribe. And I just thought who cares where they come from? It’s more important that they taste good.
The same thing is happening with women’s football. It gets far more coverage than it deserves, so the media tells people who don’t like it that they are misogynists.
Swatch has another example of this. Their LGQBT watches didn’t go down too well in Malaysia, so now Swatch harangues its Malaysian customer-base for being homophobic. Homocapitalism: where you bully your customers into buying your products because not doing so means you are an ‘-ist’ of some kind.
Basically, big corporations are filling in the role of the Catholic church by telling us what is good and not good. It’s a weird kind of consumer-moralism that depends on a hive-mind mentality. Remember when everyone and their granny were doing the ALS water-bucket challenge and putting black squares in their FB avatar? This is the same kind of thing. People no longer think for themselves, but look first to see if their thoughts are permissible by the liberal mainstream.

Last edited 10 months ago by Julian Farrows
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

I think you’re confusing ‘fittest’ with ‘strongest’.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

You aren’t actually addressing the question David Morley raises. “Survival of the fittest” is a Darwinian concept describing simply a key mechanism of biological evolution. There is a very dubious history of applying this to individuals within human society.

I also don’t agree that a measure of competition in society is not a good idea – see the entire disastrous history of Communist thought and ideology, leading to the deaths of tens of millions – far outkilling even the National Socialists.

However constrained and controlled market competition, and providing the conditions for talented people to do well (which also helps the test of us!), is hardly equivalent to letting the conditions for mass gang violence become rooted – – throwing communities effectively under the bus with neglect.

It is tragic (but also not glibly easy to solve), that someone like Andrew Tate, who obviously actually had some talent and entrepreneurial flair, should go down the disastrous route (even for himself) of trying to be the top gangster. Romania hasn’t proven to be the patriarchal paradise he imagined.

Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew Fisher
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

They lack the spirit.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

He has ‘achieved’ becoming a bullying, abusive creep who is making shedloads of money convincing millions of boys and young men that the only way up or out is to become a bullying, abusive creep so they can also make shedloads of money.

Katherine Finn
Katherine Finn
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

It beats being stuck in council estate hell. And you can’t get away with being a bullying, abusive creep for long, as Tate is now finding out, what with his criminal prosecution.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Katherine Finn

Judging from his recent interview with Tucker Carlson, what he’s finding out is that he can leverage his fame to keep getting just the kind of admiration he wants. Which he will duly monetise, whether in or out jail.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Katherine Finn

Judging from his recent interview with Tucker Carlson, what he’s finding out is that he can leverage his fame to keep getting just the kind of admiration he wants. Which he will duly monetise, whether in or out jail.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

This may be true, but simply to blame people like Tate, easy to do. when in a way he took a rational decision in very difficult circumstances, is just avoiding the bigger issue of these sink estates and how to address their very real problems.

Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew Fisher
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

I don’t think it is avoiding that issue at all. As I’ve posted in other comments, I think the horrendous reality of sink estates is one of the most serious problems we have and it enrages me that it continues to be ignored.
But Andrew Tate’s choices were his own. His background might be an explanation but it is not an excuse. The man’s 36 years old for crying out loud. He’s had plenty of time to grow up into something other than the abusive lying creep he still is.

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

According to whom–you?

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
9 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

According to whom–you?

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

I don’t think it is avoiding that issue at all. As I’ve posted in other comments, I think the horrendous reality of sink estates is one of the most serious problems we have and it enrages me that it continues to be ignored.
But Andrew Tate’s choices were his own. His background might be an explanation but it is not an excuse. The man’s 36 years old for crying out loud. He’s had plenty of time to grow up into something other than the abusive lying creep he still is.

Katherine Finn
Katherine Finn
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

It beats being stuck in council estate hell. And you can’t get away with being a bullying, abusive creep for long, as Tate is now finding out, what with his criminal prosecution.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

This may be true, but simply to blame people like Tate, easy to do. when in a way he took a rational decision in very difficult circumstances, is just avoiding the bigger issue of these sink estates and how to address their very real problems.

Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

To be fair to our politicians, the problems of a completely deep rooted lack of opportunity, aspiration and the attraction of drugs and crime are not easy to solve. See also Darren McGarvey’s “Poverty Safari’.

To those people always emphasising simplistic racial roots for these problems, Marsh Farm shows this can affect people of any background.

It is much easier to fix technical problems than those of human society and behaviour.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Tate’s father is well known as a black chess grandmaster , though he looks mixed race . The racial composition of Marsh Farm is not touched on by the author . It seems to be the case that ‘gangsta culture’ derived from black young men in the US is taken up by young men from other racial groups.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Tate’s father is well known as a black chess grandmaster , though he looks mixed race . The racial composition of Marsh Farm is not touched on by the author . It seems to be the case that ‘gangsta culture’ derived from black young men in the US is taken up by young men from other racial groups.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Because running a country of 70m successfully is more difficult than achieving personal success.

Ian Burns
Ian Burns
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

“The doctrine of the environment reduces man to an absolute nonentity, exempts him totally from every personal moral duty and from all independence, reduces him to the lowest form of slavery imaginable.”
“It’s very rare to find a person capable of handling his gift. The talent almost always enslaves its possessor, taking him, as it were, by the scruff of the neck and carrying him off far away from his proper path.”

ï»ż
Dostoyevsky (not A Tate)

Last edited 10 months ago by Ian Burns
Andrew Buckley
Andrew Buckley
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Survival of the fittest is a simple reason.
Over the whole of history some people rise to the top of pile gaining money, strength or monopolising resources.
Competition is not a good idea so a simple fact of pulling up the ladder behind these people maintains them at the top of the pile.
Lip service is paid to “helping the disadvantaged” but little actual benefit ensues as this would be counter productive.
Two examples; house prices (and the insanity of such low interest rates for the past 10+ years). Those “with” (myself included) do very well, those “without” get further pushed down.
The socialist view of “not really black” when talking about someone from a group that is supposed to be disadvantaged but has the temerity not to accept this and do well.
Most of us just trying to enjoy some life, look after family and loved ones, take a reasonable view to supporting others, and other such efforts are, in my view, “bought” by various measures (low tax, low interest, cheap holidays, low waged “help” for our lives) simply to keep us quiescent and useful idiots to allow the real elites to prosper.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

They lack the spirit.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

He has ‘achieved’ becoming a bullying, abusive creep who is making shedloads of money convincing millions of boys and young men that the only way up or out is to become a bullying, abusive creep so they can also make shedloads of money.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

To be fair to our politicians, the problems of a completely deep rooted lack of opportunity, aspiration and the attraction of drugs and crime are not easy to solve. See also Darren McGarvey’s “Poverty Safari’.

To those people always emphasising simplistic racial roots for these problems, Marsh Farm shows this can affect people of any background.

It is much easier to fix technical problems than those of human society and behaviour.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Because running a country of 70m successfully is more difficult than achieving personal success.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago

If it is possible for someone like Andrew Tate, coming from such a background to achieve what he has (dubious as that might be) – why do none our privileged politicians, and others in positions of power and advantage, have the will, energy and imagination to actually solve the social problems of which this is just a particularly bad example.

What is the point of Eton, Oxbridge and the rest if their products get bogged down in trivia that don’t matter, set targets they never achieve and let parts of the country drift out of control like this.

J Dunne
J Dunne
10 months ago

This article reads like the sort of condescending hand-wringing I used to read in the Guardian many years ago – before I came to my senses and stopped reading the Guardian.

Those of who grew up on estates like this know that the reality is far more mundane – and even enjoyable a lot of the time – than the dystopia this piece of hyperbolic poverty porn is trying to portray. Privileged types do love to have a good gawk at the poor.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  J Dunne

Oh well done. You’ve somehow managed to hold on to your Grauniad-reading past by insisting that estates that are a relentless nightmare to live on are fine really and have their own wonderful poor people’s street culture and it’s all part of life’s rich tapestry. You are Polly Toynbee and I claim my ÂŁ5.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

Coralie – making the odd sarcastic comment is perhaps ok, but when the person you are responding to has made precisely the opposite point to the one you are ascribing to him, it rather reflects on you!

J Dunne absolutely did NOT insist that living on such estates is a relentless nightmare:

“Those of who grew up on estates like this know that the reality is far more mundane – and even enjoyable a lot of the time – than the dystopia this piece of hyperbolic poverty porn is trying to portray”

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Andrew, read my comment again. He’s insisting such estates’ awfulness is overrated. Just like the Grauniad do. I’m saying, they do exist and the reality of living on them is relentless. The couple I know who live on just over a mile from me said it used not to be this bad. There are people in the community who try and try to fix whatever they can. And just as in the article, the police are either non-existent or utterly useless. I don’t think such a reality is ‘poverty porn’ and I think it needs urgently needs attention, rather than just being shoved into public and political amnesia.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Andrew, read my comment again. He’s insisting such estates’ awfulness is overrated. Just like the Grauniad do. I’m saying, they do exist and the reality of living on them is relentless. The couple I know who live on just over a mile from me said it used not to be this bad. There are people in the community who try and try to fix whatever they can. And just as in the article, the police are either non-existent or utterly useless. I don’t think such a reality is ‘poverty porn’ and I think it needs urgently needs attention, rather than just being shoved into public and political amnesia.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

Coralie – making the odd sarcastic comment is perhaps ok, but when the person you are responding to has made precisely the opposite point to the one you are ascribing to him, it rather reflects on you!

J Dunne absolutely did NOT insist that living on such estates is a relentless nightmare:

“Those of who grew up on estates like this know that the reality is far more mundane – and even enjoyable a lot of the time – than the dystopia this piece of hyperbolic poverty porn is trying to portray”

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  J Dunne

Are you suggesting this is all invented? Not all estates are the same and some are truly grim.

See also Darren McGarvey’s writing about Pollok in Glasgow.

Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew Fisher
J Dunne
J Dunne
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

I’m not saying it’s all invented, but that the negativity is exaggerated.

Writers of articles like this treat the exercise like a safari field trip, making observations from their own middle class perspectives and woefully failing to understand that many of the people living on the estates are decent people who are also mostly happy to be there.

Don’t get me wrong, there were some awful scrotes on the Manchester estate where I grew up, but they were a minority. Even if you removed the criminals altogether, the working class culture, worldview and sense of humour would still remain. And it would still be completely alien to hand-wringing liberal types who can never comprehend that not everyone wants to be the same as them.

J Dunne
J Dunne
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

I’m not saying it’s all invented, but that the negativity is exaggerated.

Writers of articles like this treat the exercise like a safari field trip, making observations from their own middle class perspectives and woefully failing to understand that many of the people living on the estates are decent people who are also mostly happy to be there.

Don’t get me wrong, there were some awful scrotes on the Manchester estate where I grew up, but they were a minority. Even if you removed the criminals altogether, the working class culture, worldview and sense of humour would still remain. And it would still be completely alien to hand-wringing liberal types who can never comprehend that not everyone wants to be the same as them.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  J Dunne

Oh well done. You’ve somehow managed to hold on to your Grauniad-reading past by insisting that estates that are a relentless nightmare to live on are fine really and have their own wonderful poor people’s street culture and it’s all part of life’s rich tapestry. You are Polly Toynbee and I claim my ÂŁ5.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago
Reply to  J Dunne

Are you suggesting this is all invented? Not all estates are the same and some are truly grim.

See also Darren McGarvey’s writing about Pollok in Glasgow.

Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew Fisher
J Dunne
J Dunne
10 months ago

This article reads like the sort of condescending hand-wringing I used to read in the Guardian many years ago – before I came to my senses and stopped reading the Guardian.

Those of who grew up on estates like this know that the reality is far more mundane – and even enjoyable a lot of the time – than the dystopia this piece of hyperbolic poverty porn is trying to portray. Privileged types do love to have a good gawk at the poor.

Malcolm Webb
Malcolm Webb
10 months ago

The Woke Net Zero obsessed deindustrialisation of the U.K. is a sure fire way to create very many more Marsh Farm estates throughout the U.K. Just stop this anti working class madness now.

Malcolm Webb
Malcolm Webb
10 months ago

The Woke Net Zero obsessed deindustrialisation of the U.K. is a sure fire way to create very many more Marsh Farm estates throughout the U.K. Just stop this anti working class madness now.

Alka Hughes-Hallett
Alka Hughes-Hallett
10 months ago

Andrew Tate’s story begins with his mother’s and father’s story. What was their experience of life? Where was the father when he was growing up? What was his influence on his sons? It starts with the parental lack of awareness, neglect and responsibility. Life weighs you down, everything downstream takes a beating too, societal structures are weak and broken, there is no one to pick up the pieces and guide you when you are down or confused . “Lord of flies” instinct takes over and turns young minds back to savage, primal, survival mode. Small material successes become extremely important and the basis to build on by any means possible.

Andrew Tate is just a misunderstood little boy to his mother: she cannot control nor understand the role she played in his views, actions & incarceration. The father? Nonexistent in the article. We have to come to terms with the fact that our society is also made up of such fractured lives. Andrew Tate is the consequence of such a broken society. So who’s to blame? No one individually, but all of us collectively. These are our children, our families, our society. The pace of movement in our lives is frightening, fast and furious. Either we slow it down or pull those that can’t keep up along with us or accept that Andrew Tates are made by us, our desire for more. This desire seeps into a mind warped by familial and societal neglect with the tools available to exploit it, unchecked, warps even more till we are forced to take notice because it starts to touch our lives.

I am not sure how it can be put into action but I think the responsibility lies with all of us, when there is an opportunity to act in a manner that has an effect on how you want your children to turn out, we should fully embrace it. If we as parents and society members take charge of our thoughts and actions, the consequences will drip feed into the society and we will activate the change we wish to see. It could be the start we are looking for.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
10 months ago

I think that’s just making excuses personally. Yes he had a rough upbringing, and yes that certainly often leads to worse outcomes in life (which is why I believe meritocracy to be nonsense as we don’t all have the same opportunities).
However, if he has done the crimes he’s accused of then that’s solely on him. If he’d ended up on the dole and on the gear I’d say his environment would be a large contributing factor, but not many people end up in human trafficking simply because they were brought up on a rough estate. A crime that serious suggests an absence of morals or a conscience rather than a simple lack of opportunities

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Look, I agree. But maybe he preferred life in the fast lane to being virtuous on the dole. You can’t really blame him.

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Yes you can. You should also unequivocally condemn him.

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Oh yes you can. No one’s background justifies raping women and girls or indeed boys and men. NO ONE’s

Gayle Rosenthal
Gayle Rosenthal
10 months ago

Exactly …. This is not a case of “I am my brother’s keeper.” It’s a case of getting rid of the menaces in society.
And there is another grave menace in society that preaches very much like Andrew Tate only it’s housed in a masjid. The other celebrity of Luton is Tommy Robinson, slayer of groomers. Whereas Andrew Tate is a notorious G who converted to Islam, Tommy Robinson is a hero.

Gayle Rosenthal
Gayle Rosenthal
10 months ago

Exactly …. This is not a case of “I am my brother’s keeper.” It’s a case of getting rid of the menaces in society.
And there is another grave menace in society that preaches very much like Andrew Tate only it’s housed in a masjid. The other celebrity of Luton is Tommy Robinson, slayer of groomers. Whereas Andrew Tate is a notorious G who converted to Islam, Tommy Robinson is a hero.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

I bl00dy can. And human trafficking is ‘life in the fast lane’? Who knew?

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Well that’s hell of a choice. Advancing his own life style is one thing, to try to influence others to take the same path is quite another.

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Yes you can. You should also unequivocally condemn him.

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Oh yes you can. No one’s background justifies raping women and girls or indeed boys and men. NO ONE’s

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

I bl00dy can. And human trafficking is ‘life in the fast lane’? Who knew?

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Well that’s hell of a choice. Advancing his own life style is one thing, to try to influence others to take the same path is quite another.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

”Merit is nonsense” is nonsense. Of course we don’t all have the same opportunities. A five foot tall 50-year-old isn’t going to be a Balenciaga runway model. But she might be a witty columnist or the outstanding mother of happy, successful children, or both.
I think you might replace “opportunity “ with ambition, desire, and drive. We definitely don’t all have those.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago

Or principles. Which you don’t mention. Because of course they can really get in the way of where your ‘ambition, desire and drive’ are aiming to get you. I shouldn’t think any of those three elements are lacking in the majority of our MPs for example. But I also think the majority of our MPs wouldn’t recognise a principle if it was, to quote the immortal Plum, handed to them on a plate with a bit of watercress round it.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
10 months ago

Personal experience makes me disagree. I’ve dealt with a lot of higher ups in my working life, and almost all of them went to the top schools and had friends and family members in prominent positions that gave them a leg up when starting their working lives. I’ve never noticed any higher levels of intelligence or work ethic amongst this cohort compared to any others that would explain their success as it were, in almost ever case it’s due to the fact they had opportunities when they started that simply weren’t there for a majority of others.
Would you support the abolition of private schools? If you believe in meritocracy then surely you’d be in favour of enduring all kids get as close to the same standard of education as possible, to try and ensure the cream rises to the top on its own merit rather than due to its background?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Well said.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Well said.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

But she wasn’t always 50.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago

Or principles. Which you don’t mention. Because of course they can really get in the way of where your ‘ambition, desire and drive’ are aiming to get you. I shouldn’t think any of those three elements are lacking in the majority of our MPs for example. But I also think the majority of our MPs wouldn’t recognise a principle if it was, to quote the immortal Plum, handed to them on a plate with a bit of watercress round it.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
10 months ago

Personal experience makes me disagree. I’ve dealt with a lot of higher ups in my working life, and almost all of them went to the top schools and had friends and family members in prominent positions that gave them a leg up when starting their working lives. I’ve never noticed any higher levels of intelligence or work ethic amongst this cohort compared to any others that would explain their success as it were, in almost ever case it’s due to the fact they had opportunities when they started that simply weren’t there for a majority of others.
Would you support the abolition of private schools? If you believe in meritocracy then surely you’d be in favour of enduring all kids get as close to the same standard of education as possible, to try and ensure the cream rises to the top on its own merit rather than due to its background?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

But she wasn’t always 50.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I don’t disagree with you, but these council estates are bad bad places. I lived on one growing up and they are rife with sexual abuse. One girl in my class was sleeping with her father and she would often come to school smelling of urine and feces. There were many other examples of children living in conditions like this.While I do generally advocate personal responsibility, there are some family situations that need more than a ‘pull your socks up’ mentality.
I think this is why, as an educator, I get so annoyed by so many social justice causes. Most of them are about glorifying victimhood and using it to enrich one’s self. They hardly ever tackle difficult or distasteful matters. Much easier to blame the world’s ills on capitalism or systemic racism.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

And a bit of sociopathy thrown in.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Look, I agree. But maybe he preferred life in the fast lane to being virtuous on the dole. You can’t really blame him.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

”Merit is nonsense” is nonsense. Of course we don’t all have the same opportunities. A five foot tall 50-year-old isn’t going to be a Balenciaga runway model. But she might be a witty columnist or the outstanding mother of happy, successful children, or both.
I think you might replace “opportunity “ with ambition, desire, and drive. We definitely don’t all have those.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I don’t disagree with you, but these council estates are bad bad places. I lived on one growing up and they are rife with sexual abuse. One girl in my class was sleeping with her father and she would often come to school smelling of urine and feces. There were many other examples of children living in conditions like this.While I do generally advocate personal responsibility, there are some family situations that need more than a ‘pull your socks up’ mentality.
I think this is why, as an educator, I get so annoyed by so many social justice causes. Most of them are about glorifying victimhood and using it to enrich one’s self. They hardly ever tackle difficult or distasteful matters. Much easier to blame the world’s ills on capitalism or systemic racism.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

And a bit of sociopathy thrown in.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago

The problem being that people in England no longer identify sufficiently with each other to care. England is just a shared address. To say “I can’t believe English children are growing up like this” means nothing to many of those who are living in nice middle class areas and doing nicely thank you.

To others it sounds vaguely racist. As if we should not care more for those struggling in England than for those struggling anywhere else.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

I think your aphoristic description – ‘England is just a shared address’ – is quite brilliant and horribly true. And I really don’t think it’s yet understood just how violently destructive this is. For all of us.

John Galt Was Correct
John Galt Was Correct
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I grew up in inner city Manchester and still spend time there and inner city parts of Salford now. Most people have no idea how teenage boys view society, or rather don’t because they have zero interest in it and don’t even notice it exists as a social construct that has accepted rules and norms. They have never been an accepted part of it and care zero for it and are paying that back in spades. They will just take what they want.

Katherine Finn
Katherine Finn
10 months ago

And on top of that if you add in deprivation and being surrounded by crime and poverty, it compounds their alienation. I remember reading a description of somewhere like Moss Side and the kids there being described as “almost feral”. It is not acceptable that this level of deprivation exists in the rich world.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Katherine Finn

Exactly. but it’s always been that way and it always will be.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Thank you for the armour-plated complacency. You might remember that people said exactly the same about human slavery. Or indeed about a wife being subject to the rule of her husband. Or any number of other dismal human habits that were considered eternal. Tenacious though human habits are, it is possible to change them. But it takes a lot of effort. As opposed to settling for ’twas ever thus’.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

It’s not complacency it’s being realistic. Looking back at history and the present and the future it would seem to be “twas ever thus’. Apparently It’s human nature to be thus, as far as there always being rich and poor, and never the twain shall meet.

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Human history tells us that the degree to which that is true of any society depends on which society you look at, and how they decided to structure themselves. Which remains true. Compare Denmark and the UK for example.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

One of the popes said when questioned about the riches in the Vatican – The poor are always with us.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Human history tells us that the degree to which that is true of any society depends on which society you look at, and how they decided to structure themselves. Which remains true. Compare Denmark and the UK for example.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

One of the popes said when questioned about the riches in the Vatican – The poor are always with us.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

It’s not complacency it’s being realistic. Looking back at history and the present and the future it would seem to be “twas ever thus’. Apparently It’s human nature to be thus, as far as there always being rich and poor, and never the twain shall meet.

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Thank you for the armour-plated complacency. You might remember that people said exactly the same about human slavery. Or indeed about a wife being subject to the rule of her husband. Or any number of other dismal human habits that were considered eternal. Tenacious though human habits are, it is possible to change them. But it takes a lot of effort. As opposed to settling for ’twas ever thus’.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago
Reply to  Katherine Finn

Hear, hear Katherine.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Katherine Finn

Exactly. but it’s always been that way and it always will be.

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago
Reply to  Katherine Finn

Hear, hear Katherine.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

Are you speaking of indigenous teenage boys? And what of the girls? Do they stand a better chance or is it have a baby to have a sense of purpose?

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I lived in Mancs for 8 years and your words really hit home. It rings wholly true with me – a vacuum where an understanding of society should be. I don’t think that’s only true of dismal estates either, it’s just that the poorer you are, the more immediate and obvious are the effects. It scares the hell out of me, because without that shared understanding we’re all down the pan.
I think it’s particularly dangerous for boys and young men because at the same time as that atomisation – which has been going on for at least 30 years – you have the gross distortions of academic ‘feminist’ (they’re not) career-builders telling them that simply being born male is poisonous, and they’re good for nowt.
Then into that comes the vile Tate. Cue fascinated media blitz on ‘gosh why?’ Christ alive, how blind and deaf do they have to be? Even I can see a bloody train when it’s coming. Sorry, rant over (must calm down and have cuppa).

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Katherine Finn
Katherine Finn
10 months ago

And on top of that if you add in deprivation and being surrounded by crime and poverty, it compounds their alienation. I remember reading a description of somewhere like Moss Side and the kids there being described as “almost feral”. It is not acceptable that this level of deprivation exists in the rich world.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

Are you speaking of indigenous teenage boys? And what of the girls? Do they stand a better chance or is it have a baby to have a sense of purpose?

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I lived in Mancs for 8 years and your words really hit home. It rings wholly true with me – a vacuum where an understanding of society should be. I don’t think that’s only true of dismal estates either, it’s just that the poorer you are, the more immediate and obvious are the effects. It scares the hell out of me, because without that shared understanding we’re all down the pan.
I think it’s particularly dangerous for boys and young men because at the same time as that atomisation – which has been going on for at least 30 years – you have the gross distortions of academic ‘feminist’ (they’re not) career-builders telling them that simply being born male is poisonous, and they’re good for nowt.
Then into that comes the vile Tate. Cue fascinated media blitz on ‘gosh why?’ Christ alive, how blind and deaf do they have to be? Even I can see a bloody train when it’s coming. Sorry, rant over (must calm down and have cuppa).

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I could say the same thing about where I live. It depends how rooted you feel, or if you were born and raised where you live. The power of “Place” is an individual thing. I still feel more rooted in England than I ever will in the US despite living the last 50 years here.

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
John Galt Was Correct
John Galt Was Correct
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I grew up in inner city Manchester and still spend time there and inner city parts of Salford now. Most people have no idea how teenage boys view society, or rather don’t because they have zero interest in it and don’t even notice it exists as a social construct that has accepted rules and norms. They have never been an accepted part of it and care zero for it and are paying that back in spades. They will just take what they want.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

I could say the same thing about where I live. It depends how rooted you feel, or if you were born and raised where you live. The power of “Place” is an individual thing. I still feel more rooted in England than I ever will in the US despite living the last 50 years here.

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
Alan Osband
Alan Osband
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

I wondered why I’d never heard of Carson Grimes , and why the police took so long to charge him .

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

I think your aphoristic description – ‘England is just a shared address’ – is quite brilliant and horribly true. And I really don’t think it’s yet understood just how violently destructive this is. For all of us.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

I wondered why I’d never heard of Carson Grimes , and why the police took so long to charge him .

Pat Rowles
Pat Rowles
10 months ago

Where was the father when he was growing up?

ï»żSomewhat bizarrely, Tate’s father, Emory, was an American chess International Master and has his own Wikipedia page.

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Well I’ll be darned! So Tate’s father treated his mother and sons no better than the pawns he dispatched from a chess board? His son, after sniffing drainpipes in Marsh Farm, swops being a pawn for being in control of porn. Hmm

Last edited 10 months ago by elaine chambers
Nick Faulks
Nick Faulks
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Emory Tate was a chess player of the most extraordinary natural talent, though his results never quite matched his legendary status in the African-American community. He certainly “ploughed his own furrow”, mostly travelling between one tournament and the next, and it is believable that he played only a minor role in the upbringing of his young sons even while notionally living with their mother.

Last edited 10 months ago by Nick Faulks
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

Or to put it another way, he didn’t give any more of a toss for his girlfriend and son than his son gives for his mother, or indeed anyone else. Something of a role model then.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

The guy was a high level chess player and a nut case that was allegedly kicked out from CIA. His mother clearly had issues as well, since no healthy woman would have kids with a nutter like Emory

Last edited 10 months ago by Tony Testosteroni
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

So for Andrew it was mostly a case of lack of nurture over nature, with a bit of school bullying thrown in.

Nick Faulks
Nick Faulks
10 months ago

Emory Tate had an honourable career as an Air Force Staff Sargeant.
I believe the CIA thing is an urban myth – and would not in any case be that much of a black mark, they are a strange bunch.

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

Not an urban myth, but possibly a myth that he himself perpetuated

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

Not an urban myth, but possibly a myth that he himself perpetuated

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

So for Andrew it was mostly a case of lack of nurture over nature, with a bit of school bullying thrown in.

Nick Faulks
Nick Faulks
10 months ago

Emory Tate had an honourable career as an Air Force Staff Sargeant.
I believe the CIA thing is an urban myth – and would not in any case be that much of a black mark, they are a strange bunch.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

He has a lot to answer for.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

Or to put it another way, he didn’t give any more of a toss for his girlfriend and son than his son gives for his mother, or indeed anyone else. Something of a role model then.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

The guy was a high level chess player and a nut case that was allegedly kicked out from CIA. His mother clearly had issues as well, since no healthy woman would have kids with a nutter like Emory

Last edited 10 months ago by Tony Testosteroni
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

He has a lot to answer for.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Why is that bizarre?

Pat Rowles
Pat Rowles
10 months ago

Don’t read too much into it, Allison – I was curious enough to check Andrew Tate’s Wikipedia page when the “Where was his father?” question was posed, and his dad’s background just…wasn’t what I expected. I’m not making any kind of value judgment.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

I think his father being a chess player is a surprise for most of us.

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

I think his father being a chess player is a surprise for most of us.

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
Pat Rowles
Pat Rowles
10 months ago

Don’t read too much into it, Allison – I was curious enough to check Andrew Tate’s Wikipedia page when the “Where was his father?” question was posed, and his dad’s background just…wasn’t what I expected. I’m not making any kind of value judgment.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

so – he got very useful genes ie most likely to succeed amongst his cohort. The determinism of biology again an uncomfortable truth that should engender serious discussion but never does……………..that joke that we are all created equal results in a copout about what might actually work with the biologically ‘disadvantaged ‘ – ie the biologically ‘average’ from disadvantaged backgrounds. The older (?) german system that no young person gets to cop out and have to either go into higher studies, a trade , the army or some type of national service. Seems pretty simple really…………….

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Wow! One wonders why they would come to England from the US, it’s usually the other way round.

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Well I’ll be darned! So Tate’s father treated his mother and sons no better than the pawns he dispatched from a chess board? His son, after sniffing drainpipes in Marsh Farm, swops being a pawn for being in control of porn. Hmm

Last edited 10 months ago by elaine chambers
Nick Faulks
Nick Faulks
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Emory Tate was a chess player of the most extraordinary natural talent, though his results never quite matched his legendary status in the African-American community. He certainly “ploughed his own furrow”, mostly travelling between one tournament and the next, and it is believable that he played only a minor role in the upbringing of his young sons even while notionally living with their mother.

Last edited 10 months ago by Nick Faulks
Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Why is that bizarre?

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

so – he got very useful genes ie most likely to succeed amongst his cohort. The determinism of biology again an uncomfortable truth that should engender serious discussion but never does……………..that joke that we are all created equal results in a copout about what might actually work with the biologically ‘disadvantaged ‘ – ie the biologically ‘average’ from disadvantaged backgrounds. The older (?) german system that no young person gets to cop out and have to either go into higher studies, a trade , the army or some type of national service. Seems pretty simple really…………….

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Wow! One wonders why they would come to England from the US, it’s usually the other way round.

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago

Good Lord such grandiose drivel! Most young men brought up by a struggling single parent, usually the mother, end up with huge respect for her, and so for women in general. However, Tate’s mother has had the huge misfortune to end up on a sink estate and who knows how she kept the family together? Those sink estates are the responsibility of government, to be precise, of bad government. Single parents are not goddesses or magicians; the absense of the father in a society that is still grossly patriarchal just compounds the situation for the single mother. I’d defy you to survive Marsh Farm and the like.

Last edited 10 months ago by elaine chambers
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago

There has always been widows due to husbands being killed in wars and accidents. However, historically male members used to take on the role of the Father; there were boxing, rugby, football and cricket clubs to work off energy and boys could start working from the age of fourteen years of age. A boy who is labouring and then training for rugbyand/or boxing will have little energy left to cause trouble. Many companies had sports teams. As work would have started as early as 5 am , if farming and often at 6 to 7 am in a factory, people went to bed by 10pm.
All of the above has largely gone.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Good points. Not only are there a shortage of solid manly examples in these communities, there is a general lack of will to be a mentor or step-in father figure according to the more traditional model you sketch. And good models of manliness are not expected, perhaps not even believed in by many anymore.
*I didn’t live through and don’t have close-up cultural knowledge of the English particulars you mention, but I’d say that there are parallels in the US and elsewhere. As you noted on another board, teens and young adults with minimal academic ability or interest shouldn’t try to go to university. They should have jobs or direct-prep training, not fruitless additional years of book-learning or a community that allows them to remain like semi-feral overgrown children.

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Sounds like a rather grim existance for boys and I’m not sure there would have been enough men to go around as substitute fathers since they would also be working from 6am till 10pm. Did you step in?

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I don’t think 16-hour days were a norm at any time in history with the possible exception of industrial factory workers in the late 1800s, early 1900s in the US (still probably 12-15 hours). 10-12 hour days, half-a-day on Saturday after reforms that started for tradesmen in the 18th century (no more dawn-to-dusk all year round). Rough enough, of course, not a working man’s paradise.
There must be some way to split the difference between a life of punishing toil starting at 14 and oceans of free time with no real direction or purpose.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Earl of Shaftesbury and Factory Acts . It was the aristocracy with a sense of Noblesse Oblige who pushed to improve the lives of those working in factories and living in slums along with the Non Conformists.The attitude was now we have freed the slaves it is time to improve the quality of live of the poor. It was the ancestors of The Guardian( Manchester Guardian ) who opposed improving the lives of the poor.
Hall of fame: Anthony Ashley Cooper, 7th Earl of Shaftesbury | The Gazette

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I’ve watch it! Oh boy, oh boy, he’s soooo confused. Socialism and The Left has always been misogynist. British Socialism is no different from Islamic solcialism, see the Hisb ut Tarir, yes, they too are socialist. Socialism looks after its women and girls in a protective manner, The price we pay for that patronising, patriarchal protection is that we must behave in the manner that the Patriarchs dictate. Our postion is similar to pets. Some of us have been lucky and have wonderful owners, sadly others not so, it’s pot luck. The Left, in particular socialism, keeps a tight grip on us. That grip being seemingly benign in the West is not easy to see, but it’s there nontheless. One of the unintended consequences of capitalism is the liberation of women. For capitalism to work people must consume material goods, the more people, the better and so caitalism didn’t leave out 50% of the population.This was not out of compassion, but out of financial necessity. These other humans needed to be allowed to buy thing, and so needed to earn a living in order to buy things, and so needed an education to earn the money to buy things. That is how women become liberated and why feminists have left the Guardian. It’s why the Taliban can never take part in modern economics and are destined to poverty. Surely you get it?

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I’ve watch it! Oh boy, oh boy, he’s soooo confused. Socialism and The Left has always been misogynist. British Socialism is no different from Islamic solcialism, see the Hisb ut Tarir, yes, they too are socialist. Socialism looks after its women and girls in a protective manner, The price we pay for that patronising, patriarchal protection is that we must behave in the manner that the Patriarchs dictate. Our postion is similar to pets. Some of us have been lucky and have wonderful owners, sadly others not so, it’s pot luck. The Left, in particular socialism, keeps a tight grip on us. That grip being seemingly benign in the West is not easy to see, but it’s there nontheless. One of the unintended consequences of capitalism is the liberation of women. For capitalism to work people must consume material goods, the more people, the better and so caitalism didn’t leave out 50% of the population.This was not out of compassion, but out of financial necessity. These other humans needed to be allowed to buy thing, and so needed to earn a living in order to buy things, and so needed an education to earn the money to buy things. That is how women become liberated and why feminists have left the Guardian. It’s why the Taliban can never take part in modern economics and are destined to poverty. Surely you get it?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Earl of Shaftesbury and Factory Acts . It was the aristocracy with a sense of Noblesse Oblige who pushed to improve the lives of those working in factories and living in slums along with the Non Conformists.The attitude was now we have freed the slaves it is time to improve the quality of live of the poor. It was the ancestors of The Guardian( Manchester Guardian ) who opposed improving the lives of the poor.
Hall of fame: Anthony Ashley Cooper, 7th Earl of Shaftesbury | The Gazette

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Not really. Many boys would prefer to work than be in school. Britain used to have vast numbers of sports teams: the church hall, companies, towns/villge Boys Brigade, Cadet Forces, Scouts.
Sergeant Stan Scott used to run army cadets in NE london .
Sergeant Stan W Scott – YouTube
Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife – YouTube
When men such as Sergeant Stan Scott were part of the community there was little crime.
The Andrew Tates and drug dealers take over an are because of the absence of the likes of Sergeant Stan Scotts.
The Mother could call upon male relatives to give guidance and punishment. Many tough working class boys find the effete priggish middle class teachers are not adults they respect whereas they respect the practical tough craftsman, chargehand, foreman and Sergeant Stan Scotts..

Heard many stories about Stan Scott as he was an retired adult instructor in my army cadet force sector, city of London and North east sector 2 coy. I never got to meet him but all my colleagues who had the pleasure to be trained by him, had the best man to train them as well as getting them off the streets of easy London. An absolute legend of my sector and the army world and a complete bad ass. He passed away last year.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Were the teachers and other middle class “sons of privilege” really all the simpering wimps of your portrayal? Surely some served in the military too, or could play passable football, or had a measure of toughness despite a lack of privation.
I acknowledge some validity in your generalities but still think you are leaving out quite a number of tougher better off boys, as well as poor weaklings and depressives left behind in times that were in some ways crueler than today.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I have never said that.
There are major differences between the USA and Britain. Britain until recently had a much larger land owning naval military class where amateur sports were played to high standard- rugby, boxing rowing, cricket, shooting, fox hunting and their sons and daughters were sent to tough public schools.
What made Britain, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand unique was that boys from different classes and regions could be selected to play amateur sport, especially cricket and rugby union. Boys could play for the local village/town, different schools, then at country, national and in the case of rugby The Lions. Sport was seen as character building, not just for winning. The idea of building character was why organisations such as Scouts and Boys Brigade were founded.
Many public and grammar schools had masters who played sport and served in the Armed Forces. My French master was an ex Royal Marine Commando who had played rugby to a high level. He could still do press up on his finger tips in his forties and punishment was to undertake PT with him. One of the punishments was a five mile run and if one seen walking, one was caned. The public and grammar schools have a long tradition of sending pupils to the Armed Forces.
As Orwell pointed out the left wing middle class has mocked physical courage and patriotism Inside the Whale, The Limit to Pessimism, My Country Right or left plus others.
From the late 1960s, comprehensive schools becamse anti competitive sport and anti military so few men who had played sport to high level and served in the Armed Forces worked there. Many public schools had combined Cadet Forces where the the Sergeant Major was ex- regular , often PTI( Sergeant Stan Scott type) and helped with discipline. Consequently, there were discipline problems in comprehensives which leads to Andrew Tate.
Public Schools and The Great War: The Generation Lost eBook : Seldon, Anthony, Walsh, David, Howard, Michael: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store
The children of the landowners grew up in the countryside and played with those from the village: in the USA this class is very small. In the USA money is held by people who have made it in industry, Wall Street , Hollwywood, Silicon Valley, they do not have to be brave or tough; there is no family honour to maintain. How many children of the wealthy in the USA play for the village or state cricket or rugby teams? A friend came from a family where they had supplied officers to the Black Watch since it was formed and the Father considered having a son who served in an elite military units more important than making money.
Can one imagine rugby teams from Silicon Valley the way the Welsh Valleys produced rugby teams or Stanstead Commputer Science Dept playing St Mary’s Medical School at rugby ?
What rugby and cricket achieved was to bring together people from very different social groups and areas and therefore broke down barriers. Boys may go to different schools and play for the same local teams, then be selected for county teams, national and in the case of rugby The Lions.
I would say many of the problems stated in the various Unherd articles occur because there are rigid class divides. On the cold wet muddy pitch all are equal it matters for nothing whether one is academically bright or wealthy, one parents are married or not, ones race or religion; but character does. As Dr Martin Luther King said ” Judge me on my character “.
fran cotton rugby muddy – Bing images

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Yes to all that. Whenever I push back at you, you produce something further of substance or interest, or both. Cheers.
I can picture “no-tackle, aerobic rugby” here in Silicon Valley. (Some adults do play the real thing around these parts, but that’s a pretty small subculture). And certainly there is still hard-contact American football here, traumatic brain injuries and all. But to your point, most of the best (US) football players, with notable exceptions like many top-notch quarterbacks, are from poor and of course low-class backgrounds.
Americans often like to imagine that there aren’t sharp class divisions among us, but that’s not true. It’s just that class is mostly based on wealth–but not only. You cannot fully “buy into” a so-called Boston Brahmin (super old money New England) crowd with money alone, especially with the “wrong accent” or, let’s face it, color. You and your new money mightn’t be ostracized, but you’re not in.
Playing sport is a great leveller and so is military service. Blacks serving in large numbers in WWII–though still in segregated divisions–probably did more to advance racial justice than any speech could do. And blacks who returned home after serving honorably overseas were a lot less likely to accept the same old de facto, second-class citizen status. Also, Jackie Robinson breaking the so-called color barrier in Major League Baseball–and playing at a star level, with undeniable dignity and character–did something that precepts and altruistic speeches never could. (Not that we’ve reached the Promised Land, mind you). We are drawn together even as spectators of sport, but not in the same way that players are. And there’s always some violent psycho-fans, on both sides of the Atlantic.
Many Americans of every skin tone are still unable to judge people “not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character”. A similar situation prevails between people of different class/status, political affiliation, etc. What a divided mess we’re in here in these Yoo-nited States!

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Sport in Britain has always been a great mixer, men from all walks of life played cricket and rugby union. A farm labourer could have played alongside Prince Ranji for Sussex .
Ranjitsinhji – Wikipedia
Rugby Union was amateur. The Welsh team comprised coal miners and medical consultants ( JPR Williams Millfield School and St Marys Medical School ) .
The Greatest Try – All Blacks vs Barbarians 1973 – YouTube
Prince Obolensky scored one of England’s finest trys.
England rugby team defeats New Zealand (1936) – YouTube
People played for the love of the game and the honour of representing their country: not money.
How would the Andrew Tates of the World cope playing the All Blacks ?
COLIN MEADS 17: NZ’s TOP HISTORY MAKERS – YouTube
Sir Colin was a farmer and once carried in playing rugby after he broke his arm. When boys are training in rugby, especially if one is against a Fran Cotton, JPR Williams or a Sir Colin Meads one does not have energy to cause trouble. All these men in gyms cannot train the for reality of 80 mins of rugby and then 20 minutes of extra time when one constantly being tackled and making the tackle.
One of the top rugby schools is Harrow which educated W Churchill and Nehru.
Top 5 School Teams of the Weekend: Round 2 – 18th September – YouTube
If the left wing middle class are so supportive of the manual blue collar working class why do they not play Rugby League, the most working class of sports?
A major reason is that the wing middle class intellectuals largely lack the strength, fitness, toughness and aggression of men such as Meads, Obolensky, Cotton, JPR Williams, etc, Williams once had his cheek ripped by an All Black stamping on him and needed 30 sticthes and returned to the game.
All Black fails to apologise for ripping open JPR’s face as he finally speaks out on horror incident – Wales Online
Andrew Tate is a product of the post 1960s Welfare System and denigration of chivalry which ignores the fact that unless male aggression and energy is channelled in a constructive manner it becomes destructive. Perhaps if gangs were forced to play rugby in winter and cricket in summer there would be less violence?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Sport in Britain has always been a great mixer, men from all walks of life played cricket and rugby union. A farm labourer could have played alongside Prince Ranji for Sussex .
Ranjitsinhji – Wikipedia
Rugby Union was amateur. The Welsh team comprised coal miners and medical consultants ( JPR Williams Millfield School and St Marys Medical School ) .
The Greatest Try – All Blacks vs Barbarians 1973 – YouTube
Prince Obolensky scored one of England’s finest trys.
England rugby team defeats New Zealand (1936) – YouTube
People played for the love of the game and the honour of representing their country: not money.
How would the Andrew Tates of the World cope playing the All Blacks ?
COLIN MEADS 17: NZ’s TOP HISTORY MAKERS – YouTube
Sir Colin was a farmer and once carried in playing rugby after he broke his arm. When boys are training in rugby, especially if one is against a Fran Cotton, JPR Williams or a Sir Colin Meads one does not have energy to cause trouble. All these men in gyms cannot train the for reality of 80 mins of rugby and then 20 minutes of extra time when one constantly being tackled and making the tackle.
One of the top rugby schools is Harrow which educated W Churchill and Nehru.
Top 5 School Teams of the Weekend: Round 2 – 18th September – YouTube
If the left wing middle class are so supportive of the manual blue collar working class why do they not play Rugby League, the most working class of sports?
A major reason is that the wing middle class intellectuals largely lack the strength, fitness, toughness and aggression of men such as Meads, Obolensky, Cotton, JPR Williams, etc, Williams once had his cheek ripped by an All Black stamping on him and needed 30 sticthes and returned to the game.
All Black fails to apologise for ripping open JPR’s face as he finally speaks out on horror incident – Wales Online
Andrew Tate is a product of the post 1960s Welfare System and denigration of chivalry which ignores the fact that unless male aggression and energy is channelled in a constructive manner it becomes destructive. Perhaps if gangs were forced to play rugby in winter and cricket in summer there would be less violence?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

“Many public and grammar schools had masters who played sport and served in the Armed Forces. My French master was an ex Royal Marine Commando”
The deputy head of my prep school served with the 8th Army and left his leg behind in North Africa.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Yes to all that. Whenever I push back at you, you produce something further of substance or interest, or both. Cheers.
I can picture “no-tackle, aerobic rugby” here in Silicon Valley. (Some adults do play the real thing around these parts, but that’s a pretty small subculture). And certainly there is still hard-contact American football here, traumatic brain injuries and all. But to your point, most of the best (US) football players, with notable exceptions like many top-notch quarterbacks, are from poor and of course low-class backgrounds.
Americans often like to imagine that there aren’t sharp class divisions among us, but that’s not true. It’s just that class is mostly based on wealth–but not only. You cannot fully “buy into” a so-called Boston Brahmin (super old money New England) crowd with money alone, especially with the “wrong accent” or, let’s face it, color. You and your new money mightn’t be ostracized, but you’re not in.
Playing sport is a great leveller and so is military service. Blacks serving in large numbers in WWII–though still in segregated divisions–probably did more to advance racial justice than any speech could do. And blacks who returned home after serving honorably overseas were a lot less likely to accept the same old de facto, second-class citizen status. Also, Jackie Robinson breaking the so-called color barrier in Major League Baseball–and playing at a star level, with undeniable dignity and character–did something that precepts and altruistic speeches never could. (Not that we’ve reached the Promised Land, mind you). We are drawn together even as spectators of sport, but not in the same way that players are. And there’s always some violent psycho-fans, on both sides of the Atlantic.
Many Americans of every skin tone are still unable to judge people “not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character”. A similar situation prevails between people of different class/status, political affiliation, etc. What a divided mess we’re in here in these Yoo-nited States!

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

“Many public and grammar schools had masters who played sport and served in the Armed Forces. My French master was an ex Royal Marine Commando”
The deputy head of my prep school served with the 8th Army and left his leg behind in North Africa.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I have never said that.
There are major differences between the USA and Britain. Britain until recently had a much larger land owning naval military class where amateur sports were played to high standard- rugby, boxing rowing, cricket, shooting, fox hunting and their sons and daughters were sent to tough public schools.
What made Britain, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand unique was that boys from different classes and regions could be selected to play amateur sport, especially cricket and rugby union. Boys could play for the local village/town, different schools, then at country, national and in the case of rugby The Lions. Sport was seen as character building, not just for winning. The idea of building character was why organisations such as Scouts and Boys Brigade were founded.
Many public and grammar schools had masters who played sport and served in the Armed Forces. My French master was an ex Royal Marine Commando who had played rugby to a high level. He could still do press up on his finger tips in his forties and punishment was to undertake PT with him. One of the punishments was a five mile run and if one seen walking, one was caned. The public and grammar schools have a long tradition of sending pupils to the Armed Forces.
As Orwell pointed out the left wing middle class has mocked physical courage and patriotism Inside the Whale, The Limit to Pessimism, My Country Right or left plus others.
From the late 1960s, comprehensive schools becamse anti competitive sport and anti military so few men who had played sport to high level and served in the Armed Forces worked there. Many public schools had combined Cadet Forces where the the Sergeant Major was ex- regular , often PTI( Sergeant Stan Scott type) and helped with discipline. Consequently, there were discipline problems in comprehensives which leads to Andrew Tate.
Public Schools and The Great War: The Generation Lost eBook : Seldon, Anthony, Walsh, David, Howard, Michael: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store
The children of the landowners grew up in the countryside and played with those from the village: in the USA this class is very small. In the USA money is held by people who have made it in industry, Wall Street , Hollwywood, Silicon Valley, they do not have to be brave or tough; there is no family honour to maintain. How many children of the wealthy in the USA play for the village or state cricket or rugby teams? A friend came from a family where they had supplied officers to the Black Watch since it was formed and the Father considered having a son who served in an elite military units more important than making money.
Can one imagine rugby teams from Silicon Valley the way the Welsh Valleys produced rugby teams or Stanstead Commputer Science Dept playing St Mary’s Medical School at rugby ?
What rugby and cricket achieved was to bring together people from very different social groups and areas and therefore broke down barriers. Boys may go to different schools and play for the same local teams, then be selected for county teams, national and in the case of rugby The Lions.
I would say many of the problems stated in the various Unherd articles occur because there are rigid class divides. On the cold wet muddy pitch all are equal it matters for nothing whether one is academically bright or wealthy, one parents are married or not, ones race or religion; but character does. As Dr Martin Luther King said ” Judge me on my character “.
fran cotton rugby muddy – Bing images

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Were the teachers and other middle class “sons of privilege” really all the simpering wimps of your portrayal? Surely some served in the military too, or could play passable football, or had a measure of toughness despite a lack of privation.
I acknowledge some validity in your generalities but still think you are leaving out quite a number of tougher better off boys, as well as poor weaklings and depressives left behind in times that were in some ways crueler than today.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I don’t think 16-hour days were a norm at any time in history with the possible exception of industrial factory workers in the late 1800s, early 1900s in the US (still probably 12-15 hours). 10-12 hour days, half-a-day on Saturday after reforms that started for tradesmen in the 18th century (no more dawn-to-dusk all year round). Rough enough, of course, not a working man’s paradise.
There must be some way to split the difference between a life of punishing toil starting at 14 and oceans of free time with no real direction or purpose.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Not really. Many boys would prefer to work than be in school. Britain used to have vast numbers of sports teams: the church hall, companies, towns/villge Boys Brigade, Cadet Forces, Scouts.
Sergeant Stan Scott used to run army cadets in NE london .
Sergeant Stan W Scott – YouTube
Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife – YouTube
When men such as Sergeant Stan Scott were part of the community there was little crime.
The Andrew Tates and drug dealers take over an are because of the absence of the likes of Sergeant Stan Scotts.
The Mother could call upon male relatives to give guidance and punishment. Many tough working class boys find the effete priggish middle class teachers are not adults they respect whereas they respect the practical tough craftsman, chargehand, foreman and Sergeant Stan Scotts..

Heard many stories about Stan Scott as he was an retired adult instructor in my army cadet force sector, city of London and North east sector 2 coy. I never got to meet him but all my colleagues who had the pleasure to be trained by him, had the best man to train them as well as getting them off the streets of easy London. An absolute legend of my sector and the army world and a complete bad ass. He passed away last year.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Good points. Not only are there a shortage of solid manly examples in these communities, there is a general lack of will to be a mentor or step-in father figure according to the more traditional model you sketch. And good models of manliness are not expected, perhaps not even believed in by many anymore.
*I didn’t live through and don’t have close-up cultural knowledge of the English particulars you mention, but I’d say that there are parallels in the US and elsewhere. As you noted on another board, teens and young adults with minimal academic ability or interest shouldn’t try to go to university. They should have jobs or direct-prep training, not fruitless additional years of book-learning or a community that allows them to remain like semi-feral overgrown children.

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Sounds like a rather grim existance for boys and I’m not sure there would have been enough men to go around as substitute fathers since they would also be working from 6am till 10pm. Did you step in?

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
MJ Reid
MJ Reid
10 months ago

There have been good people come from Marsh Farm and other sink estates. It is an excuse to say everyone ends up bad just like it is an excuse to use the absence of a father. Decent people thrive in spite of diversity. He and his brother chose to be bad. Romania can keep him.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago

Most young men brought up by a struggling single parent, usually the mother, end up with huge respect for her, and so for women in general.

Is that actually true, or just your opinion.

If true, then given the increase in single motherhood, respect for women must be at an all time high. And yet many feminists claim otherwise. Not sure if I’m just confused, or you’re pushing wishful thinking as reality.

jane baker
jane baker
10 months ago

You don’t end up on a sink estate by “misfortune”. It seems to me that what the lefty liberal elite or whatever they’re called now, dont like about this Andrew Tate is that he didn’t go through route of seeking their approval and wanting “pats on the head ‘ from him.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

Or perhaps it’s because he is a meanspirited and materialistic man. A dreadful role model from any worthy standard of values: left, right, or center.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Some fathers are better absent.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Some fathers are better absent.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

Then how do you end up on a sink estate?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Pre 1960s a council house had to be earned: married couple, hard working, honest and rules on behaviour. Post 1960s this was relaxed. The Peabody and Guinness Trust still have strict rules so no bad behaviour.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Pre 1960s a council house had to be earned: married couple, hard working, honest and rules on behaviour. Post 1960s this was relaxed. The Peabody and Guinness Trust still have strict rules so no bad behaviour.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

Or perhaps it’s because he is a meanspirited and materialistic man. A dreadful role model from any worthy standard of values: left, right, or center.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

Then how do you end up on a sink estate?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

There’s a bit of a contradiction there. You say”most young men brought up by a struggling single parent, usually have huge respect for her and so for women in general” Then you say “however Tate’s mother had the huge misfortune to end up on a sink estate and who knows how she kept the family together” Well yes, but isn’t that the fate of most single mothers, to struggle? So why didn’t he have respect for his mother?

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

There is no contradiction here. I wrote, “…most…” He, I’m pointing out, has not followed that pathway. I’m wondering why? I strongly suspect the Muslim influence and its endemic misogyny haas infulence him greatly. Western Women perceived as ‘sluts’ ‘slappers’.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

Thanks for the clarification. Point taken. I didn’t know he was a muslim. Say no more!!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

Thanks for the clarification. Point taken. I didn’t know he was a muslim. Say no more!!

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

There is no contradiction here. I wrote, “…most…” He, I’m pointing out, has not followed that pathway. I’m wondering why? I strongly suspect the Muslim influence and its endemic misogyny haas infulence him greatly. Western Women perceived as ‘sluts’ ‘slappers’.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago

There has always been widows due to husbands being killed in wars and accidents. However, historically male members used to take on the role of the Father; there were boxing, rugby, football and cricket clubs to work off energy and boys could start working from the age of fourteen years of age. A boy who is labouring and then training for rugbyand/or boxing will have little energy left to cause trouble. Many companies had sports teams. As work would have started as early as 5 am , if farming and often at 6 to 7 am in a factory, people went to bed by 10pm.
All of the above has largely gone.

MJ Reid
MJ Reid
10 months ago

There have been good people come from Marsh Farm and other sink estates. It is an excuse to say everyone ends up bad just like it is an excuse to use the absence of a father. Decent people thrive in spite of diversity. He and his brother chose to be bad. Romania can keep him.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago

Most young men brought up by a struggling single parent, usually the mother, end up with huge respect for her, and so for women in general.

Is that actually true, or just your opinion.

If true, then given the increase in single motherhood, respect for women must be at an all time high. And yet many feminists claim otherwise. Not sure if I’m just confused, or you’re pushing wishful thinking as reality.

jane baker
jane baker
10 months ago

You don’t end up on a sink estate by “misfortune”. It seems to me that what the lefty liberal elite or whatever they’re called now, dont like about this Andrew Tate is that he didn’t go through route of seeking their approval and wanting “pats on the head ‘ from him.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

There’s a bit of a contradiction there. You say”most young men brought up by a struggling single parent, usually have huge respect for her and so for women in general” Then you say “however Tate’s mother had the huge misfortune to end up on a sink estate and who knows how she kept the family together” Well yes, but isn’t that the fate of most single mothers, to struggle? So why didn’t he have respect for his mother?

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
10 months ago

How do you know what Andrew Tate is to his mother?

The most constructive help given to struggling parents (with longterm effects on their children’s futures) especially in conditions of poverty and hopelessness like Marsh Farm and other “sink” estates devoid of any social amenities, was Labour’s Sure Start scheme — cancelled by our Tory government.

Also, “Lord of the Flies” is a novel which misrepresents the young left to their own instincts: which, according to social science studies, are far more benign. It takes corrupt and depraved adults to ruin young people’s lives by exploiting poverty and neglect.

Last edited 10 months ago by Gabriel Mills
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Gabriel Mills

The cancelling of Sure Start was profoundly stupid in the fullest sense of that word: ‘to act in a way counter to one’s own interest’. Sure Start was a proven success that was influencing right where it mattered – at the beginning: childhood. So obviously the new government simply had stop this frightful attempt to help clueless parents improve their parenting. It’s beyond dismal when you think of what could have been achieved simply by leaving this straightforward scheme in place.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Gabriel Mills

It takes “corrupt and depraved adults to ruin young people’s lives” wherever they grow up. Poverty and neglect is just a double whammy.

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Gabriel Mills

The cancelling of Sure Start was profoundly stupid in the fullest sense of that word: ‘to act in a way counter to one’s own interest’. Sure Start was a proven success that was influencing right where it mattered – at the beginning: childhood. So obviously the new government simply had stop this frightful attempt to help clueless parents improve their parenting. It’s beyond dismal when you think of what could have been achieved simply by leaving this straightforward scheme in place.

Last edited 10 months ago by Coralie Palmer
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Gabriel Mills

It takes “corrupt and depraved adults to ruin young people’s lives” wherever they grow up. Poverty and neglect is just a double whammy.

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

I think there’s some merit in your perspective. But to completely free people, however downtrodden, from responsibility for their actions reaches too far in the other direction of Furedi’s flat assertion that the woes of the “lost boys” were just “self-inflicted”. Yes they have some available choice but for children or young adolescents from rough towns and often terrible family backgrounds it’s pretty limited for most.
We should be our brother’s keeper and love our neighbors, even those ones. And we should not deny the power of self-reliance, nor the possibility of carving a decent path through and out of hell, so to speak. Unfortunately, it seems like Tate’s escape route has led to an alternate hell-scape, spotlight and material success notwithstanding–and I’m not talking about his current legal troubles alone. These are some hope-starved times and places; things are not therefore simply hopeless, nor criminal and spiritually-empty ways inevitable.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago

Andrew Tate was born into an environment where relentless bullying at every level was a fact of life. So he decided to become a top bully. That was his choice. He then decided to make masses of money by convincing other young males to do the same. Also his choice. I agree that estates like Marsh Farm represent a total failure of public and political will. But that doesn’t excuse what he’s become.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

Well dah!! But I resent the “we” thing. Please speak for yourself.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I didn’t say ‘we’ and wasn’t referring to you. I was agreeing with a particular part of Hughes-Hallett’s post.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

My comment was in response to Alka-Hughes-Hallett not to you, Coralie. It was a response to his/her comment way back. It would be nice if there were lines drawn from the comment to the response.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Agreed!

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Agreed!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Coralie Palmer

My comment was in response to Alka-Hughes-Hallett not to you, Coralie. It was a response to his/her comment way back. It would be nice if there were lines drawn from the comment to the response.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I didn’t say ‘we’ and wasn’t referring to you. I was agreeing with a particular part of Hughes-Hallett’s post.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
10 months ago

I think that’s just making excuses personally. Yes he had a rough upbringing, and yes that certainly often leads to worse outcomes in life (which is why I believe meritocracy to be nonsense as we don’t all have the same opportunities).
However, if he has done the crimes he’s accused of then that’s solely on him. If he’d ended up on the dole and on the gear I’d say his environment would be a large contributing factor, but not many people end up in human trafficking simply because they were brought up on a rough estate. A crime that serious suggests an absence of morals or a conscience rather than a simple lack of opportunities

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago

The problem being that people in England no longer identify sufficiently with each other to care. England is just a shared address. To say “I can’t believe English children are growing up like this” means nothing to many of those who are living in nice middle class areas and doing nicely thank you.

To others it sounds vaguely racist. As if we should not care more for those struggling in England than for those struggling anywhere else.

Pat Rowles
Pat Rowles
10 months ago

Where was the father when he was growing up?

ï»żSomewhat bizarrely, Tate’s father, Emory, was an American chess International Master and has his own Wikipedia page.

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
10 months ago

Good Lord such grandiose drivel! Most young men brought up by a struggling single parent, usually the mother, end up with huge respect for her, and so for women in general. However, Tate’s mother has had the huge misfortune to end up on a sink estate and who knows how she kept the family together? Those sink estates are the responsibility of government, to be precise, of bad government. Single parents are not goddesses or magicians; the absense of the father in a society that is still grossly patriarchal just compounds the situation for the single mother. I’d defy you to survive Marsh Farm and the like.

Last edited 10 months ago by elaine chambers
Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
10 months ago

How do you know what Andrew Tate is to his mother?

The most constructive help given to struggling parents (with longterm effects on their children’s futures) especially in conditions of poverty and hopelessness like Marsh Farm and other “sink” estates devoid of any social amenities, was Labour’s Sure Start scheme — cancelled by our Tory government.

Also, “Lord of the Flies” is a novel which misrepresents the young left to their own instincts: which, according to social science studies, are far more benign. It takes corrupt and depraved adults to ruin young people’s lives by exploiting poverty and neglect.

Last edited 10 months ago by Gabriel Mills
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

I think there’s some merit in your perspective. But to completely free people, however downtrodden, from responsibility for their actions reaches too far in the other direction of Furedi’s flat assertion that the woes of the “lost boys” were just “self-inflicted”. Yes they have some available choice but for children or young adolescents from rough towns and often terrible family backgrounds it’s pretty limited for most.
We should be our brother’s keeper and love our neighbors, even those ones. And we should not deny the power of self-reliance, nor the possibility of carving a decent path through and out of hell, so to speak. Unfortunately, it seems like Tate’s escape route has led to an alternate hell-scape, spotlight and material success notwithstanding–and I’m not talking about his current legal troubles alone. These are some hope-starved times and places; things are not therefore simply hopeless, nor criminal and spiritually-empty ways inevitable.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
10 months ago

Andrew Tate was born into an environment where relentless bullying at every level was a fact of life. So he decided to become a top bully. That was his choice. He then decided to make masses of money by convincing other young males to do the same. Also his choice. I agree that estates like Marsh Farm represent a total failure of public and political will. But that doesn’t excuse what he’s become.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

Well dah!! But I resent the “we” thing. Please speak for yourself.

Alka Hughes-Hallett
Alka Hughes-Hallett
10 months ago

Andrew Tate’s story begins with his mother’s and father’s story. What was their experience of life? Where was the father when he was growing up? What was his influence on his sons? It starts with the parental lack of awareness, neglect and responsibility. Life weighs you down, everything downstream takes a beating too, societal structures are weak and broken, there is no one to pick up the pieces and guide you when you are down or confused . “Lord of flies” instinct takes over and turns young minds back to savage, primal, survival mode. Small material successes become extremely important and the basis to build on by any means possible.

Andrew Tate is just a misunderstood little boy to his mother: she cannot control nor understand the role she played in his views, actions & incarceration. The father? Nonexistent in the article. We have to come to terms with the fact that our society is also made up of such fractured lives. Andrew Tate is the consequence of such a broken society. So who’s to blame? No one individually, but all of us collectively. These are our children, our families, our society. The pace of movement in our lives is frightening, fast and furious. Either we slow it down or pull those that can’t keep up along with us or accept that Andrew Tates are made by us, our desire for more. This desire seeps into a mind warped by familial and societal neglect with the tools available to exploit it, unchecked, warps even more till we are forced to take notice because it starts to touch our lives.

I am not sure how it can be put into action but I think the responsibility lies with all of us, when there is an opportunity to act in a manner that has an effect on how you want your children to turn out, we should fully embrace it. If we as parents and society members take charge of our thoughts and actions, the consequences will drip feed into the society and we will activate the change we wish to see. It could be the start we are looking for.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago

The poverty of the south Wales mining districts and the other heavy industrial areas of the Depression were far worse. What they had were physically tough men who boxed, played rugby( union or league), many had been in Armed Forces, ethics of honesty and hard work embued by Methodism and The Baptists, Sunday School, lives lived according The Bible, especially Proverbs, The Cooperative Society. The phrases” Cleanliness is next to Godliness”, ” Poor but honest ” were common. The front room and front step of houses were immaculate. Men kept order.
These socities produced Keir Hardie and Ernest Bevin
Ernest Bevin – 1940 (1940) – YouTube
Bevin came from a far poorer society than Tate and was Baptist preacher.
If one has a society which mocks discipline and hence self discipline, promotes if it feels good do it and one which is completely opposite to The Proverbs, the result is Marsh Farm. The physical conditions, whether homes or schools are far more luxurious than the heavy industrial areas of The Depression. Proverbs
by which men will come to wisdom and instruction
gain well-instructed intelligence
, righteousness, justice and probity
The simple will be endowed with shrewdness
the young with knowledge and prudence
the man of understanding will aquire skill
fools scorn wisdom and discipline
The Baptists,Methodists, Quakers, Salvation Army and Non- Conformists entered the rookersies and slums of 19th century Britain and greatly improved conditions.
The lefty wing middle class planners built housing estates post WW2 and slums were created because the people were allowed to devlop a slum mentality.The middle class Trotskyists sided with criminals( All property is theft ) and the law was changed such that honest tough men could not impose order. If drug dealers had tried to sell their wares in an industrial town of the 1930s , they would have been run out of town. If a man touched someone below the age of 18 years they were accused of assault not matter how violent was the teenager. Discipline was removed from schools such that if a teacher had to physically restrain a pupil who was attacking another they were accused of assault.

Niall Cusack
Niall Cusack
10 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Glad to see that someone remembers Ernie Bevin – the most effective (in my opinion revolutionary) English socialist of the 20th century.
There are many famous Bevinisms, but my favourite is his description of the USSR: “A breakaway from the Transport and General Workers Union.”
There is a superb biography of Bevin by Alan Bullock.
Its high quality is not surprising given that the Bullock Report on Industrial Democracy in 1977 was a watershed in British history. It proposed that there should be worker directors on the boards of large privately owned companies. Had it been adopted, it would have effected a (very British) revolution. It would have proved as irreversible as the Welfare State.
In the event, it was rejected by the entire Labour Movement: the Trade Unions, the Labour Party and the Communist Party. Not for us, they said, to manage capitalism! That’s for the managers. We won’t soil our hands. (As I recall, only Clive Jenkins and Jack Jones fought valiantly for actual workers control, to no avail. )
All this was only a few years after Harold Wilson had complacently described Labour as ‘the natural party of government’.
But the working class didn’t want to govern! They left it to their betters…..or at any rate somebody else.
The rejection of the Bullock Report marked the end of an era.
Trade union power without responsibility was epitomised by Arthur Scargill, who destroyed the National Union of Mineworkers.
That ‘ great refusal’ of everything that Bevin had fought for entailed Thatcherism and the atomisation of the working class and the destruction of organised labour. Blair was a Thatcherite wearing a red rosette as well as a war criminal.
Nostalgia is a great thing! There actually is an Ernest Bevin Society – they occasionally publish interesting pamphlets on current affairs. They are not affiliated to Starmer’s Labour Party, in which Ernest Bevin would find no home. He would be cancelled.
PS. Ernie Bevin is not Nye Bevan, the original Welsh Windbag, who did NOT found the NHS!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago
Reply to  Niall Cusack

You omitted to mention the BEVIN gave ‘us’ the Bomb!
Whilst the “Welsh Windbag” as you so politely call him gave us the “Tories are vermin “ speech.

ps. I did reply to your Irish epistle of a few days ago, but the censor forbade it!