The collective West celebrates drag queen reading hours for toddlers, parent-free pre-pubescent sex reassignments, self-loathing, self-doubt and mental illness for everyone. Maybe worry less about the Russian Orthodox Church…
While Russia celebrates bombing and torturing civilians in mass rallies, and in television programs every day.
Don’t talk to me of western decadence.
Muscovy has been decadent for 800 years.
This is an outstanging article. Hats off. Like, the point that Russia has been a long standing world leader in.abortions per capita that has never been so clearly brought home to the distinguished aidience of family-values keepers
Some comments, however, show that is was a caviar to general
I am.currently in Saint Petersbourg, the place where i grew up. I wish those who hold or share your opinion were seconded on a tour of Russian goulags The few ones that have not been erased yet That you would be reminded of the 20 million innocent people who lost their life in purges. My great-grandfather, who was an orthodox priest, was among them. The clergy were among the first to be exterminated.
I wish all the free thinking readers of unherd – who believe in putin as a beholder of their values – were made to stay in a country where a lonely teenager with a poster in the street risks a prolonged term in jail. Where silence has become a rule . Even remembering the victims of repressions became impossible. All while the churches being lavishly restored with hundreds of millions of taxpayers’ money thrown on that
And kgb recruits preaching.
Sadly, no one of the stature of Solzhenitsyn has appeared.
He had real Great Russian hang-ups. But I still can’t see him countenancing this lunacy. He said he never wanted his children to fight Ukrainians.
“оставайся в безопасности…”
Sadly, no one of the stature of Solzhenitsyn has appeared.
He had real Great Russian hang-ups. But I still can’t see him countenancing this lunacy. He said he never wanted his children to fight Ukrainians.
“оставайся в безопасности…”
While Russia celebrates bombing and torturing civilians in mass rallies, and in television programs every day.
Don’t talk to me of western decadence.
Muscovy has been decadent for 800 years.
This is an outstanging article. Hats off. Like, the point that Russia has been a long standing world leader in.abortions per capita that has never been so clearly brought home to the distinguished aidience of family-values keepers
Some comments, however, show that is was a caviar to general
I am.currently in Saint Petersbourg, the place where i grew up. I wish those who hold or share your opinion were seconded on a tour of Russian goulags The few ones that have not been erased yet That you would be reminded of the 20 million innocent people who lost their life in purges. My great-grandfather, who was an orthodox priest, was among them. The clergy were among the first to be exterminated.
I wish all the free thinking readers of unherd – who believe in putin as a beholder of their values – were made to stay in a country where a lonely teenager with a poster in the street risks a prolonged term in jail. Where silence has become a rule . Even remembering the victims of repressions became impossible. All while the churches being lavishly restored with hundreds of millions of taxpayers’ money thrown on that
And kgb recruits preaching.
TheElephant InTheRoom
9 months ago
The collective West celebrates drag queen reading hours for toddlers, parent-free pre-pubescent sex reassignments, self-loathing, self-doubt and mental illness for everyone. Maybe worry less about the Russian Orthodox Church…
Andrew Richardson
9 months ago
Not to see that there is not only a war between Ukraine and Putin, but a battle of values between the West and Russia is to be wilfully blind. And while the invasion was awful and evil, Western values are descending into pure decadence. I have just listened to a video on Twitter of a woman battling against trans-ideology and the facilitation of medical intervention on children by official and semi-official organs of the state. How can we in the West say with any honesty that our values are superior to Russia, in the way that we certainly could during the Cold War?
Indeed, yet another author of a comment deserving a study visit to a goulag. It does rectify the sense of values
Andrew Richardson
9 months ago
Not to see that there is not only a war between Ukraine and Putin, but a battle of values between the West and Russia is to be wilfully blind. And while the invasion was awful and evil, Western values are descending into pure decadence. I have just listened to a video on Twitter of a woman battling against trans-ideology and the facilitation of medical intervention on children by official and semi-official organs of the state. How can we in the West say with any honesty that our values are superior to Russia, in the way that we certainly could during the Cold War?
Matt Hindman
9 months ago
I find it a little suspicious that this article is coming out at a time when the Ukrainian government is being accused of suppressing the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and yet I can not find a single mention of the controversy in this article.
Ukrainian Orthodox Church?!
Let’s be clear:
Ukraine is suppressing a few church members loyal to the Moscow Patriarchate–members who have openly encouraged Putin’s attack on Ukraine. The members of the Moscow-loyal church have dwindled greatly since the war began, for obvious reasons.
It’s a far cry from Putin’s suppression of even calling the war in Urkaine a “war.”
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is based in Kyiv, and per the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople–ultimate head of Orthodoxy–is completely separate from Moscow.
You misunderstand both the situation and Orthodox ecclesiology, see my earlier post re the situation.
Regarding ecclesiology: the EP is not the “ultimate head of Orthodoxy”, that is Our Lord Jesus Christ. The EP has first place of honor at councils since the Latins set up on their own in the 11th century (before that the Pope of Rome had that role), but is actually equal in authority to any bishop of the Orthodox. Our understanding of catholicity is drawn from its original meaning “according to the whole” and was stated by St. Ignatius of Antioch, who first applied the term katholike to the Church: where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church. Note, not Bishop of Rome, not Patriarch, just bishop. The authority of the episcopate, like the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, is “indivisibly divided”, being wholely present in each instance.
I respect the orthodox church, and many of its communicants, whom I’ve often found to be truly good people.
But not Caesaropapism.
Subsurvience to any political authority will taint any religious community. And there is ample evidence for it in Russia.
That’s why Moscow must lose this war.
I respect the orthodox church, and many of its communicants, whom I’ve often found to be truly good people.
But not Caesaropapism.
Subsurvience to any political authority will taint any religious community. And there is ample evidence for it in Russia.
That’s why Moscow must lose this war.
Multiple corrections:
The “Moscow-loyal” church, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) has openly denounced Putin’s invasion, called it a war, and ceased commemoration of the Patriarch of Moscow. They are governed by an independent synod of Ukrainian bishops.
The Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) was formed by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople from multiple groups that had left the UOC, without consulting the Patriarch of Moscow.
The Ecumenical Patriarch is not the ultimate head of Orthodoxy. His role in resolving disputed affairs in the Orthodox Church is hotly disputed. I do not know who is right, but I do know that no side of these disputes would refer to him as “the ultimate head of Orthodoxy”.
I do not know enough about the ins and outs of the dispute to give a firm opinion on whether the UOC or OCU is in the right, but such a conclusion cannot be reached without having the undisputed facts accurate in the first place.
Funny then how the UOC continues to dwindle in numbers and parishes.
Like Kiril himself, fatally tainted by Muscovite history.
The suicide of a once great church began in Bucha.
Funny then how the UOC continues to dwindle in numbers and parishes.
Like Kiril himself, fatally tainted by Muscovite history.
The suicide of a once great church began in Bucha.
You misunderstand both the situation and Orthodox ecclesiology, see my earlier post re the situation.
Regarding ecclesiology: the EP is not the “ultimate head of Orthodoxy”, that is Our Lord Jesus Christ. The EP has first place of honor at councils since the Latins set up on their own in the 11th century (before that the Pope of Rome had that role), but is actually equal in authority to any bishop of the Orthodox. Our understanding of catholicity is drawn from its original meaning “according to the whole” and was stated by St. Ignatius of Antioch, who first applied the term katholike to the Church: where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church. Note, not Bishop of Rome, not Patriarch, just bishop. The authority of the episcopate, like the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, is “indivisibly divided”, being wholely present in each instance.
Multiple corrections:
The “Moscow-loyal” church, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) has openly denounced Putin’s invasion, called it a war, and ceased commemoration of the Patriarch of Moscow. They are governed by an independent synod of Ukrainian bishops.
The Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) was formed by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople from multiple groups that had left the UOC, without consulting the Patriarch of Moscow.
The Ecumenical Patriarch is not the ultimate head of Orthodoxy. His role in resolving disputed affairs in the Orthodox Church is hotly disputed. I do not know who is right, but I do know that no side of these disputes would refer to him as “the ultimate head of Orthodoxy”.
I do not know enough about the ins and outs of the dispute to give a firm opinion on whether the UOC or OCU is in the right, but such a conclusion cannot be reached without having the undisputed facts accurate in the first place.
Well, this – obvious – misconception is exactly the fruit of a tirelles effort by the new type of preachers, the trolls, that the regime spends billions on
Ukrainian Orthodox Church?!
Let’s be clear:
Ukraine is suppressing a few church members loyal to the Moscow Patriarchate–members who have openly encouraged Putin’s attack on Ukraine. The members of the Moscow-loyal church have dwindled greatly since the war began, for obvious reasons.
It’s a far cry from Putin’s suppression of even calling the war in Urkaine a “war.”
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is based in Kyiv, and per the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople–ultimate head of Orthodoxy–is completely separate from Moscow.
Well, this – obvious – misconception is exactly the fruit of a tirelles effort by the new type of preachers, the trolls, that the regime spends billions on
Matt Hindman
9 months ago
I find it a little suspicious that this article is coming out at a time when the Ukrainian government is being accused of suppressing the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and yet I can not find a single mention of the controversy in this article.
Martin Smith
9 months ago
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Ukrainian war, there can be no doubt Western governments and institutions are utterly decadent and depraved and it is only the small ‘c’ conservatives on both the political left and right who are holding it together, but they come largely from older generations and are no longer valued. Apres eux…?
EXACTLY the argument Nazis made in the 30s.
Congratulations for reviving those venerable ideas!
Martin Smith
9 months ago
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Ukrainian war, there can be no doubt Western governments and institutions are utterly decadent and depraved and it is only the small ‘c’ conservatives on both the political left and right who are holding it together, but they come largely from older generations and are no longer valued. Apres eux…?
Betty Peterson
9 months ago
I stopped reading at the second sentence when the author said Putin was “spitting with rage.” I knew right away this was going to be a push-piece of propaganda rather than a serious treatment of the issues. For whatever you think of Putin, he NEVER “spits with rage.” I expected better from Unherd.
Yes he does ! I am in Russia and I speak Russian. Do you?
The excellent article was definitely designed to the audience, well, slightly more sophisticated than that
Yes he does ! I am in Russia and I speak Russian. Do you?
The excellent article was definitely designed to the audience, well, slightly more sophisticated than that
Betty Peterson
9 months ago
I stopped reading at the second sentence when the author said Putin was “spitting with rage.” I knew right away this was going to be a push-piece of propaganda rather than a serious treatment of the issues. For whatever you think of Putin, he NEVER “spits with rage.” I expected better from Unherd.
David Yetter
9 months ago
Not only does the article, as @Math Hindman points out, ignore the suppression of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UCO) under Metropolitan Onouphry (nominally, and I’ll explain why it’s only nominally in a moment, part of the Patriachate of Moscow) by the Ukrainian government (in favor Constantinople-backed Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU), which incidentally, was constituted in violation of Orthodox canonical norms on the territory of another canonical church, and in its creation involved recognition as Orthodox hierarchs, bishops who had been correctly deposed as schismatics by the Patriarhcate of Moscow years earlier, in an action recognized as valid by all of the autocephalous Orthodox churches — I happen to be a communicant of the Patriarchate of Antioch, and we do not recognize the OCU as a canonical Orthodox Church), it fails to mention that the very phenomenon described in the article has led the UOC to cease commemorating Patriarch Kirill in the Divine Liturgy.
This is more significant than it might seem. It means that Met. Onouphry and his Holy Synod no longer regard Patr. Kirill as Orthodox (i.e. regard him to be a heretic or apostate), and yet the Ukrainian government persecutes the UOC as being “pro-Moscow”, hardly a position supportable in light of their dropping the commemoration of Kirill. (Incidentally, we Orthodox have a name for the heresy of identifying the Church with an ethnicity or ethnically based state: it’s called ethnophylitism, and if there’s ever a proper Ecumencial Council, a lot of bishops across a lot of local churches are going to have to repent of it or be deposed.)
The only real problem is that Kiril (and much of the Moscow Patriarchate) are simply assets of the FSB, as most of their predecessors were assets of the KGB.
The only real problem is that Kiril (and much of the Moscow Patriarchate) are simply assets of the FSB, as most of their predecessors were assets of the KGB.
David Yetter
9 months ago
Not only does the article, as @Math Hindman points out, ignore the suppression of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UCO) under Metropolitan Onouphry (nominally, and I’ll explain why it’s only nominally in a moment, part of the Patriachate of Moscow) by the Ukrainian government (in favor Constantinople-backed Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU), which incidentally, was constituted in violation of Orthodox canonical norms on the territory of another canonical church, and in its creation involved recognition as Orthodox hierarchs, bishops who had been correctly deposed as schismatics by the Patriarhcate of Moscow years earlier, in an action recognized as valid by all of the autocephalous Orthodox churches — I happen to be a communicant of the Patriarchate of Antioch, and we do not recognize the OCU as a canonical Orthodox Church), it fails to mention that the very phenomenon described in the article has led the UOC to cease commemorating Patriarch Kirill in the Divine Liturgy.
This is more significant than it might seem. It means that Met. Onouphry and his Holy Synod no longer regard Patr. Kirill as Orthodox (i.e. regard him to be a heretic or apostate), and yet the Ukrainian government persecutes the UOC as being “pro-Moscow”, hardly a position supportable in light of their dropping the commemoration of Kirill. (Incidentally, we Orthodox have a name for the heresy of identifying the Church with an ethnicity or ethnically based state: it’s called ethnophylitism, and if there’s ever a proper Ecumencial Council, a lot of bishops across a lot of local churches are going to have to repent of it or be deposed.)
Gordon Arta
9 months ago
Organised religions will always do for state and secular powers whatever is necessary to preserve and grow their own powerbase; give use what we need – control of children’s education, marriage, divorce, contraception, a key voice in ‘morality’ and a central role in public and state ceremonials – and we’ll give you legitimacy, moral support, votes, ‘god’s approval’, whatever. Religious principles, such as they are supposed to be, play little or no role in the arrangement.
Gordon Arta
9 months ago
Organised religions will always do for state and secular powers whatever is necessary to preserve and grow their own powerbase; give use what we need – control of children’s education, marriage, divorce, contraception, a key voice in ‘morality’ and a central role in public and state ceremonials – and we’ll give you legitimacy, moral support, votes, ‘god’s approval’, whatever. Religious principles, such as they are supposed to be, play little or no role in the arrangement.
David Kingsworthy
9 months ago
I appreciate how this piece highlights the Russia/traditional and Ukraine/progressive dichotomy which is surely contributing to the development of significant opposition to the war among Western conservatives.
David Kingsworthy
9 months ago
I appreciate how this piece highlights the Russia/traditional and Ukraine/progressive dichotomy which is surely contributing to the development of significant opposition to the war among Western conservatives.
Konstantinos Stavropoulos
9 months ago
I am not very supportive of the Russian neo-fundamentalism. Nevertheless, this article could be rewritten with the exact opposite narrative and thus supportive of Putin and his orthodox patriotism. Not from the (more obvious) Russian point of view, but rather let’s say a reactionary point off view of a westerner. Indeed someone can argue that there is a lot at stake that is dragged into this war, though the initial trigger was the territorial control. The west now is claiming to fight for democracy on the grounds of Ukraine. This article too is praising the LGBDQ friendly new approach of Kyiv as a democratic process. Values and ideas one can talk much about.
As for the search into the tradition of the Orthodox church, this is a big issue barely touched by Elle Hardy. Diving in the theology and tradition of the Orthodox Church can create a rejuvenation to the West. But that’s a story to be seen ahead of us. And may the best win, in the seek for truth. In the Ukrainian war may no one win. The sooner it ends the better for those fighting and for the rest of us.
A rejuvenation of the West is devoutly to be hoped for.
But when the Moscow Church:
1) Effectively countenances the torture and killing of civilians and POWs;
2) Stays silent while cities are daily bombarded;
3) Ignores the fact that this is an unprovoked invasion of a smaller country;
4) Ignores the mass kidnapping of Ukrainian children;
5) Stays silent when the very poorest people in the world are deprived of food, first by the destruction of the Kakhovka dam, and now by the destruction of 60,000 tons of grain and much of the infrastructure (The WFP gets 80% of its grain from Ukraine)
How can one take anything they say seriously??
I think this is the most important comment here – actions speak louder than words to my mind, and no matter what doctrine you profess, to do what Russia is doing to civilians obliterates any claim to moral or spiritual superiority.
I think this is the most important comment here – actions speak louder than words to my mind, and no matter what doctrine you profess, to do what Russia is doing to civilians obliterates any claim to moral or spiritual superiority.
A rejuvenation of the West is devoutly to be hoped for.
But when the Moscow Church:
1) Effectively countenances the torture and killing of civilians and POWs;
2) Stays silent while cities are daily bombarded;
3) Ignores the fact that this is an unprovoked invasion of a smaller country;
4) Ignores the mass kidnapping of Ukrainian children;
5) Stays silent when the very poorest people in the world are deprived of food, first by the destruction of the Kakhovka dam, and now by the destruction of 60,000 tons of grain and much of the infrastructure (The WFP gets 80% of its grain from Ukraine)
How can one take anything they say seriously??
Konstantinos Stavropoulos
9 months ago
I am not very supportive of the Russian neo-fundamentalism. Nevertheless, this article could be rewritten with the exact opposite narrative and thus supportive of Putin and his orthodox patriotism. Not from the (more obvious) Russian point of view, but rather let’s say a reactionary point off view of a westerner. Indeed someone can argue that there is a lot at stake that is dragged into this war, though the initial trigger was the territorial control. The west now is claiming to fight for democracy on the grounds of Ukraine. This article too is praising the LGBDQ friendly new approach of Kyiv as a democratic process. Values and ideas one can talk much about.
As for the search into the tradition of the Orthodox church, this is a big issue barely touched by Elle Hardy. Diving in the theology and tradition of the Orthodox Church can create a rejuvenation to the West. But that’s a story to be seen ahead of us. And may the best win, in the seek for truth. In the Ukrainian war may no one win. The sooner it ends the better for those fighting and for the rest of us.
Peace, via negotiations and compromise..!
Nathan Sapio
9 months ago
Interesting… Interesting… Wait, you say Russians are turning to God? Wait… you define turning to God as going to “faith healers” and psychics? That’s your concept of turning to God?
Try… orienting your heart and mind to the transcendent animating spirit that unifies all things? Try… being enabled to live differently than what the world expects in a way that motivates both self sacrifice, enlightenment, and love for the other (especially when you don’t feel like it)? Try… redeeming personal brokenness? You might try…
Nathan Sapio
9 months ago
Interesting… Interesting… Wait, you say Russians are turning to God? Wait… you define turning to God as going to “faith healers” and psychics? That’s your concept of turning to God?
Try… orienting your heart and mind to the transcendent animating spirit that unifies all things? Try… being enabled to live differently than what the world expects in a way that motivates both self sacrifice, enlightenment, and love for the other (especially when you don’t feel like it)? Try… redeeming personal brokenness? You might try…
martin logan
9 months ago
The real danger is not to Ukraine.
The real danger is Russian self harm.
Russia has entered these psychotic phases several times in its history. And when it does, Russians themselves become the main victims. Far more Russians died under Stalin than did citizens of Nazi Germany.
And with Strelkov’s arrest, the suppression machine is clearly taking on a life of its own. As we saw in Bucha and Irpin, the “officers” in charge of suppression are usually idiots, and will torture and kill people at random.
Give them carte blanche, and soon half the country will be behind bars– slowly starving to death, a la Navalny and Kara-Murza.
Doesn’t mean the West should gloat. We have our own problems.
But Russia may well turn “Raskolnik,” i.e. bar their door, and burn everyone inside to “cleanse” the nation…
martin logan
9 months ago
The real danger is not to Ukraine.
The real danger is Russian self harm.
Russia has entered these psychotic phases several times in its history. And when it does, Russians themselves become the main victims. Far more Russians died under Stalin than did citizens of Nazi Germany.
And with Strelkov’s arrest, the suppression machine is clearly taking on a life of its own. As we saw in Bucha and Irpin, the “officers” in charge of suppression are usually idiots, and will torture and kill people at random.
Give them carte blanche, and soon half the country will be behind bars– slowly starving to death, a la Navalny and Kara-Murza.
Doesn’t mean the West should gloat. We have our own problems.
But Russia may well turn “Raskolnik,” i.e. bar their door, and burn everyone inside to “cleanse” the nation…
martin logan
9 months ago
The fatuous posts below about “western decadence” exactly parallel similar Nazi tropes in the 30s and 40s.
I find this quite repugnant. It simply reflects the deep moral decay that has swept over Russia in the last 20 years.
To staunch it would have required a Solzhenitsyn. And sadly, no one like that has appeared in Russia–on any part of the political spectrum, although people like Zubov have tried.
I now very much fear that Russia’s moral decline is irreversible. And that will mean its physical dissolution as well.
The 90s are coming back with a vengeance.
The fatuous posts below about “western decadence” exactly parallel similar Nazi tropes in the 30s and 40s.
I find this quite repugnant. It simply reflects the deep moral decay that has swept over Russia in the last 20 years.
To staunch it would have required a Solzhenitsyn. And sadly, no one like that has appeared in Russia–on any part of the political spectrum, although people like Zubov have tried.
I now very much fear that Russia’s moral decline is irreversible. And that will mean its physical dissolution as well.
The 90s are coming back with a vengeance.
Last edited 9 months ago by martin logan
martin logan
9 months ago
The Russian orthodox church has always been the passive enabler of whatever nonsense Moscow’s secular leaders purvey.
Indeed, it really dates back to Constantine, when the church became subordinate to the emperor. For the West, that stopped when the last western emperor was deposed in 476. But Caesero-Papism continued in Byzantium, and was taken over by Moscow after 1453.
So this is nothing new.
Sure. I’ll throw something brief in: the church didn’t become subordinate to the emperor under Constantine. Church leaders often felt free to criticise the emperor. They were expected to work together within their own realms of proper ministry. This lapsed into caesero-papism many times, especially in the Eastern Roman/Byzantine empire, but the times of clear caesero-papism and the times of state and church working in tandem are far from co-extensive. With regards to Russia, the memory of Saint Vladimir the great and of the Passion-bearers Saints Boris and Gleb in the 11th century is testament to Russia not always having such a toxic “enabling” relationship between believing church and “secular” leaders.
I must admit to a certain degree of frustration at the persistence of “Constantine is the root of all evil” narratives.
I don’t think there is any doubt that the Moscow patriarchate has been fatally tainted since Lenin came to power.
Individuals have undoubtedly led saintly lives.
But the whole structure is corrupt. Indeed, that was Solzhenitsyn’s main complaint against Orthodoxy.
I’m laughing as I write this.
So Eusebius wasn’t “subordinating” himself when he neglected to mention that Constantine had murdered his wife?
And most of the late Roman emperors who were Christian were just as ruthless. Valentinian I burned people alive. Gratian had the successful general Theodosius the Elder executed–purely because of court intrigue.
The Roman empire, both east or west, had the same dysfunctional problems with favoritism and cruelty that we see plaguing Moscow today.
Empires ae made to decline.
Silence is acceptance.
And the silence of Russians–especially those in the West who know better–damns them, however much they may talk about Russia’s “spiritual values.”
Silence is acceptance.
And the silence of Russians–especially those in the West who know better–damns them, however much they may talk about Russia’s “spiritual values.”
I don’t think there is any doubt that the Moscow patriarchate has been fatally tainted since Lenin came to power.
Individuals have undoubtedly led saintly lives.
But the whole structure is corrupt. Indeed, that was Solzhenitsyn’s main complaint against Orthodoxy.
I’m laughing as I write this.
So Eusebius wasn’t “subordinating” himself when he neglected to mention that Constantine had murdered his wife?
And most of the late Roman emperors who were Christian were just as ruthless. Valentinian I burned people alive. Gratian had the successful general Theodosius the Elder executed–purely because of court intrigue.
The Roman empire, both east or west, had the same dysfunctional problems with favoritism and cruelty that we see plaguing Moscow today.
Empires ae made to decline.
To pretend that Caesaro-Papism ended in 476 in the west overlooks centuries of papal pretention to the claim of temporal as well as spiritual authority over the western roman empire which lasts into the present day in severely truncated form at the Vatican.
So when did Papal pretension become more than pretensions?
Can’t think of many instances.
Separation of secular and religious authority is one of the engines that helped the West avoid the stagnation that Russia must perpetually slide back into.
So when did Papal pretension become more than pretensions?
Can’t think of many instances.
Separation of secular and religious authority is one of the engines that helped the West avoid the stagnation that Russia must perpetually slide back into.
Sure. I’ll throw something brief in: the church didn’t become subordinate to the emperor under Constantine. Church leaders often felt free to criticise the emperor. They were expected to work together within their own realms of proper ministry. This lapsed into caesero-papism many times, especially in the Eastern Roman/Byzantine empire, but the times of clear caesero-papism and the times of state and church working in tandem are far from co-extensive. With regards to Russia, the memory of Saint Vladimir the great and of the Passion-bearers Saints Boris and Gleb in the 11th century is testament to Russia not always having such a toxic “enabling” relationship between believing church and “secular” leaders.
I must admit to a certain degree of frustration at the persistence of “Constantine is the root of all evil” narratives.
To pretend that Caesaro-Papism ended in 476 in the west overlooks centuries of papal pretention to the claim of temporal as well as spiritual authority over the western roman empire which lasts into the present day in severely truncated form at the Vatican.
Would anyone downvoting care to challenge this analysis?
martin logan
9 months ago
The Russian orthodox church has always been the passive enabler of whatever nonsense Moscow’s secular leaders purvey.
Indeed, it really dates back to Constantine, when the church became subordinate to the emperor. For the West, that stopped when the last western emperor was deposed in 476. But Caesero-Papism continued in Byzantium, and was taken over by Moscow after 1453.
So this is nothing new.
The collective West celebrates drag queen reading hours for toddlers, parent-free pre-pubescent sex reassignments, self-loathing, self-doubt and mental illness for everyone. Maybe worry less about the Russian Orthodox Church…
While Russia celebrates bombing and torturing civilians in mass rallies, and in television programs every day.
Don’t talk to me of western decadence.
Muscovy has been decadent for 800 years.
Thank you for your comment. I am so relieved there are people here able to respond to western-decadence-mongers.
Thank you for your comment. I am so relieved there are people here able to respond to western-decadence-mongers.
This is an outstanging article. Hats off. Like, the point that Russia has been a long standing world leader in.abortions per capita that has never been so clearly brought home to the distinguished aidience of family-values keepers
Some comments, however, show that is was a caviar to general
I am.currently in Saint Petersbourg, the place where i grew up. I wish those who hold or share your opinion were seconded on a tour of Russian goulags The few ones that have not been erased yet That you would be reminded of the 20 million innocent people who lost their life in purges. My great-grandfather, who was an orthodox priest, was among them. The clergy were among the first to be exterminated.
I wish all the free thinking readers of unherd – who believe in putin as a beholder of their values – were made to stay in a country where a lonely teenager with a poster in the street risks a prolonged term in jail. Where silence has become a rule . Even remembering the victims of repressions became impossible. All while the churches being lavishly restored with hundreds of millions of taxpayers’ money thrown on that
And kgb recruits preaching.
Sadly, no one of the stature of Solzhenitsyn has appeared.
He had real Great Russian hang-ups. But I still can’t see him countenancing this lunacy. He said he never wanted his children to fight Ukrainians.
“оставайся в безопасности…”
Sadly, no one of the stature of Solzhenitsyn has appeared.
He had real Great Russian hang-ups. But I still can’t see him countenancing this lunacy. He said he never wanted his children to fight Ukrainians.
“оставайся в безопасности…”
While Russia celebrates bombing and torturing civilians in mass rallies, and in television programs every day.
Don’t talk to me of western decadence.
Muscovy has been decadent for 800 years.
This is an outstanging article. Hats off. Like, the point that Russia has been a long standing world leader in.abortions per capita that has never been so clearly brought home to the distinguished aidience of family-values keepers
Some comments, however, show that is was a caviar to general
I am.currently in Saint Petersbourg, the place where i grew up. I wish those who hold or share your opinion were seconded on a tour of Russian goulags The few ones that have not been erased yet That you would be reminded of the 20 million innocent people who lost their life in purges. My great-grandfather, who was an orthodox priest, was among them. The clergy were among the first to be exterminated.
I wish all the free thinking readers of unherd – who believe in putin as a beholder of their values – were made to stay in a country where a lonely teenager with a poster in the street risks a prolonged term in jail. Where silence has become a rule . Even remembering the victims of repressions became impossible. All while the churches being lavishly restored with hundreds of millions of taxpayers’ money thrown on that
And kgb recruits preaching.
The collective West celebrates drag queen reading hours for toddlers, parent-free pre-pubescent sex reassignments, self-loathing, self-doubt and mental illness for everyone. Maybe worry less about the Russian Orthodox Church…
Not to see that there is not only a war between Ukraine and Putin, but a battle of values between the West and Russia is to be wilfully blind. And while the invasion was awful and evil, Western values are descending into pure decadence. I have just listened to a video on Twitter of a woman battling against trans-ideology and the facilitation of medical intervention on children by official and semi-official organs of the state. How can we in the West say with any honesty that our values are superior to Russia, in the way that we certainly could during the Cold War?
We don’t have to.
A defensive war against an aggressor is always just.
And it doesn’t matter who’s fighting in the trenches.
Indeed, yet another author of a comment deserving a study visit to a goulag. It does rectify the sense of values
We don’t have to.
A defensive war against an aggressor is always just.
And it doesn’t matter who’s fighting in the trenches.
Indeed, yet another author of a comment deserving a study visit to a goulag. It does rectify the sense of values
Not to see that there is not only a war between Ukraine and Putin, but a battle of values between the West and Russia is to be wilfully blind. And while the invasion was awful and evil, Western values are descending into pure decadence. I have just listened to a video on Twitter of a woman battling against trans-ideology and the facilitation of medical intervention on children by official and semi-official organs of the state. How can we in the West say with any honesty that our values are superior to Russia, in the way that we certainly could during the Cold War?
I find it a little suspicious that this article is coming out at a time when the Ukrainian government is being accused of suppressing the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and yet I can not find a single mention of the controversy in this article.
Ukrainian Orthodox Church?!
Let’s be clear:
Ukraine is suppressing a few church members loyal to the Moscow Patriarchate–members who have openly encouraged Putin’s attack on Ukraine. The members of the Moscow-loyal church have dwindled greatly since the war began, for obvious reasons.
It’s a far cry from Putin’s suppression of even calling the war in Urkaine a “war.”
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is based in Kyiv, and per the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople–ultimate head of Orthodoxy–is completely separate from Moscow.
You misunderstand both the situation and Orthodox ecclesiology, see my earlier post re the situation.
Regarding ecclesiology: the EP is not the “ultimate head of Orthodoxy”, that is Our Lord Jesus Christ. The EP has first place of honor at councils since the Latins set up on their own in the 11th century (before that the Pope of Rome had that role), but is actually equal in authority to any bishop of the Orthodox. Our understanding of catholicity is drawn from its original meaning “according to the whole” and was stated by St. Ignatius of Antioch, who first applied the term katholike to the Church: where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church. Note, not Bishop of Rome, not Patriarch, just bishop. The authority of the episcopate, like the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, is “indivisibly divided”, being wholely present in each instance.
I respect the orthodox church, and many of its communicants, whom I’ve often found to be truly good people.
But not Caesaropapism.
Subsurvience to any political authority will taint any religious community. And there is ample evidence for it in Russia.
That’s why Moscow must lose this war.
I respect the orthodox church, and many of its communicants, whom I’ve often found to be truly good people.
But not Caesaropapism.
Subsurvience to any political authority will taint any religious community. And there is ample evidence for it in Russia.
That’s why Moscow must lose this war.
Multiple corrections:
The “Moscow-loyal” church, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) has openly denounced Putin’s invasion, called it a war, and ceased commemoration of the Patriarch of Moscow. They are governed by an independent synod of Ukrainian bishops.
The Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) was formed by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople from multiple groups that had left the UOC, without consulting the Patriarch of Moscow.
The Ecumenical Patriarch is not the ultimate head of Orthodoxy. His role in resolving disputed affairs in the Orthodox Church is hotly disputed. I do not know who is right, but I do know that no side of these disputes would refer to him as “the ultimate head of Orthodoxy”.
I do not know enough about the ins and outs of the dispute to give a firm opinion on whether the UOC or OCU is in the right, but such a conclusion cannot be reached without having the undisputed facts accurate in the first place.
Funny then how the UOC continues to dwindle in numbers and parishes.
Like Kiril himself, fatally tainted by Muscovite history.
The suicide of a once great church began in Bucha.
Funny then how the UOC continues to dwindle in numbers and parishes.
Like Kiril himself, fatally tainted by Muscovite history.
The suicide of a once great church began in Bucha.
You misunderstand both the situation and Orthodox ecclesiology, see my earlier post re the situation.
Regarding ecclesiology: the EP is not the “ultimate head of Orthodoxy”, that is Our Lord Jesus Christ. The EP has first place of honor at councils since the Latins set up on their own in the 11th century (before that the Pope of Rome had that role), but is actually equal in authority to any bishop of the Orthodox. Our understanding of catholicity is drawn from its original meaning “according to the whole” and was stated by St. Ignatius of Antioch, who first applied the term katholike to the Church: where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church. Note, not Bishop of Rome, not Patriarch, just bishop. The authority of the episcopate, like the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, is “indivisibly divided”, being wholely present in each instance.
Multiple corrections:
The “Moscow-loyal” church, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) has openly denounced Putin’s invasion, called it a war, and ceased commemoration of the Patriarch of Moscow. They are governed by an independent synod of Ukrainian bishops.
The Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) was formed by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople from multiple groups that had left the UOC, without consulting the Patriarch of Moscow.
The Ecumenical Patriarch is not the ultimate head of Orthodoxy. His role in resolving disputed affairs in the Orthodox Church is hotly disputed. I do not know who is right, but I do know that no side of these disputes would refer to him as “the ultimate head of Orthodoxy”.
I do not know enough about the ins and outs of the dispute to give a firm opinion on whether the UOC or OCU is in the right, but such a conclusion cannot be reached without having the undisputed facts accurate in the first place.
Well, this – obvious – misconception is exactly the fruit of a tirelles effort by the new type of preachers, the trolls, that the regime spends billions on
Ukrainian Orthodox Church?!
Let’s be clear:
Ukraine is suppressing a few church members loyal to the Moscow Patriarchate–members who have openly encouraged Putin’s attack on Ukraine. The members of the Moscow-loyal church have dwindled greatly since the war began, for obvious reasons.
It’s a far cry from Putin’s suppression of even calling the war in Urkaine a “war.”
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is based in Kyiv, and per the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople–ultimate head of Orthodoxy–is completely separate from Moscow.
Well, this – obvious – misconception is exactly the fruit of a tirelles effort by the new type of preachers, the trolls, that the regime spends billions on
I find it a little suspicious that this article is coming out at a time when the Ukrainian government is being accused of suppressing the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and yet I can not find a single mention of the controversy in this article.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Ukrainian war, there can be no doubt Western governments and institutions are utterly decadent and depraved and it is only the small ‘c’ conservatives on both the political left and right who are holding it together, but they come largely from older generations and are no longer valued. Apres eux…?
Après eux, there will be imminent threats far greater that any trans community could ever possibly pose
EXACTLY the argument Nazis made in the 30s.
Congratulations for reviving those venerable ideas!
Après eux, there will be imminent threats far greater that any trans community could ever possibly pose
EXACTLY the argument Nazis made in the 30s.
Congratulations for reviving those venerable ideas!
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Ukrainian war, there can be no doubt Western governments and institutions are utterly decadent and depraved and it is only the small ‘c’ conservatives on both the political left and right who are holding it together, but they come largely from older generations and are no longer valued. Apres eux…?
I stopped reading at the second sentence when the author said Putin was “spitting with rage.” I knew right away this was going to be a push-piece of propaganda rather than a serious treatment of the issues. For whatever you think of Putin, he NEVER “spits with rage.” I expected better from Unherd.
Yes he does ! I am in Russia and I speak Russian. Do you?
The excellent article was definitely designed to the audience, well, slightly more sophisticated than that
Yes he does ! I am in Russia and I speak Russian. Do you?
The excellent article was definitely designed to the audience, well, slightly more sophisticated than that
I stopped reading at the second sentence when the author said Putin was “spitting with rage.” I knew right away this was going to be a push-piece of propaganda rather than a serious treatment of the issues. For whatever you think of Putin, he NEVER “spits with rage.” I expected better from Unherd.
Not only does the article, as @Math Hindman points out, ignore the suppression of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UCO) under Metropolitan Onouphry (nominally, and I’ll explain why it’s only nominally in a moment, part of the Patriachate of Moscow) by the Ukrainian government (in favor Constantinople-backed Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU), which incidentally, was constituted in violation of Orthodox canonical norms on the territory of another canonical church, and in its creation involved recognition as Orthodox hierarchs, bishops who had been correctly deposed as schismatics by the Patriarhcate of Moscow years earlier, in an action recognized as valid by all of the autocephalous Orthodox churches — I happen to be a communicant of the Patriarchate of Antioch, and we do not recognize the OCU as a canonical Orthodox Church), it fails to mention that the very phenomenon described in the article has led the UOC to cease commemorating Patriarch Kirill in the Divine Liturgy.
This is more significant than it might seem. It means that Met. Onouphry and his Holy Synod no longer regard Patr. Kirill as Orthodox (i.e. regard him to be a heretic or apostate), and yet the Ukrainian government persecutes the UOC as being “pro-Moscow”, hardly a position supportable in light of their dropping the commemoration of Kirill. (Incidentally, we Orthodox have a name for the heresy of identifying the Church with an ethnicity or ethnically based state: it’s called ethnophylitism, and if there’s ever a proper Ecumencial Council, a lot of bishops across a lot of local churches are going to have to repent of it or be deposed.)
The only real problem is that Kiril (and much of the Moscow Patriarchate) are simply assets of the FSB, as most of their predecessors were assets of the KGB.
The only real problem is that Kiril (and much of the Moscow Patriarchate) are simply assets of the FSB, as most of their predecessors were assets of the KGB.
Not only does the article, as @Math Hindman points out, ignore the suppression of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UCO) under Metropolitan Onouphry (nominally, and I’ll explain why it’s only nominally in a moment, part of the Patriachate of Moscow) by the Ukrainian government (in favor Constantinople-backed Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU), which incidentally, was constituted in violation of Orthodox canonical norms on the territory of another canonical church, and in its creation involved recognition as Orthodox hierarchs, bishops who had been correctly deposed as schismatics by the Patriarhcate of Moscow years earlier, in an action recognized as valid by all of the autocephalous Orthodox churches — I happen to be a communicant of the Patriarchate of Antioch, and we do not recognize the OCU as a canonical Orthodox Church), it fails to mention that the very phenomenon described in the article has led the UOC to cease commemorating Patriarch Kirill in the Divine Liturgy.
This is more significant than it might seem. It means that Met. Onouphry and his Holy Synod no longer regard Patr. Kirill as Orthodox (i.e. regard him to be a heretic or apostate), and yet the Ukrainian government persecutes the UOC as being “pro-Moscow”, hardly a position supportable in light of their dropping the commemoration of Kirill. (Incidentally, we Orthodox have a name for the heresy of identifying the Church with an ethnicity or ethnically based state: it’s called ethnophylitism, and if there’s ever a proper Ecumencial Council, a lot of bishops across a lot of local churches are going to have to repent of it or be deposed.)
Organised religions will always do for state and secular powers whatever is necessary to preserve and grow their own powerbase; give use what we need – control of children’s education, marriage, divorce, contraception, a key voice in ‘morality’ and a central role in public and state ceremonials – and we’ll give you legitimacy, moral support, votes, ‘god’s approval’, whatever. Religious principles, such as they are supposed to be, play little or no role in the arrangement.
Organised religions will always do for state and secular powers whatever is necessary to preserve and grow their own powerbase; give use what we need – control of children’s education, marriage, divorce, contraception, a key voice in ‘morality’ and a central role in public and state ceremonials – and we’ll give you legitimacy, moral support, votes, ‘god’s approval’, whatever. Religious principles, such as they are supposed to be, play little or no role in the arrangement.
I appreciate how this piece highlights the Russia/traditional and Ukraine/progressive dichotomy which is surely contributing to the development of significant opposition to the war among Western conservatives.
I appreciate how this piece highlights the Russia/traditional and Ukraine/progressive dichotomy which is surely contributing to the development of significant opposition to the war among Western conservatives.
I am not very supportive of the Russian neo-fundamentalism. Nevertheless, this article could be rewritten with the exact opposite narrative and thus supportive of Putin and his orthodox patriotism. Not from the (more obvious) Russian point of view, but rather let’s say a reactionary point off view of a westerner. Indeed someone can argue that there is a lot at stake that is dragged into this war, though the initial trigger was the territorial control. The west now is claiming to fight for democracy on the grounds of Ukraine. This article too is praising the LGBDQ friendly new approach of Kyiv as a democratic process. Values and ideas one can talk much about.
As for the search into the tradition of the Orthodox church, this is a big issue barely touched by Elle Hardy. Diving in the theology and tradition of the Orthodox Church can create a rejuvenation to the West. But that’s a story to be seen ahead of us. And may the best win, in the seek for truth. In the Ukrainian war may no one win. The sooner it ends the better for those fighting and for the rest of us.
Peace, via negotiations and compromise..!
A rejuvenation of the West is devoutly to be hoped for.
But when the Moscow Church:
1) Effectively countenances the torture and killing of civilians and POWs;
2) Stays silent while cities are daily bombarded;
3) Ignores the fact that this is an unprovoked invasion of a smaller country;
4) Ignores the mass kidnapping of Ukrainian children;
5) Stays silent when the very poorest people in the world are deprived of food, first by the destruction of the Kakhovka dam, and now by the destruction of 60,000 tons of grain and much of the infrastructure (The WFP gets 80% of its grain from Ukraine)
How can one take anything they say seriously??
I think this is the most important comment here – actions speak louder than words to my mind, and no matter what doctrine you profess, to do what Russia is doing to civilians obliterates any claim to moral or spiritual superiority.
So comforting to hear, amidst the dicharge of obscurantism
So comforting to hear, amidst the dicharge of obscurantism
Bravo
I think this is the most important comment here – actions speak louder than words to my mind, and no matter what doctrine you profess, to do what Russia is doing to civilians obliterates any claim to moral or spiritual superiority.
Bravo
A rejuvenation of the West is devoutly to be hoped for.
But when the Moscow Church:
1) Effectively countenances the torture and killing of civilians and POWs;
2) Stays silent while cities are daily bombarded;
3) Ignores the fact that this is an unprovoked invasion of a smaller country;
4) Ignores the mass kidnapping of Ukrainian children;
5) Stays silent when the very poorest people in the world are deprived of food, first by the destruction of the Kakhovka dam, and now by the destruction of 60,000 tons of grain and much of the infrastructure (The WFP gets 80% of its grain from Ukraine)
How can one take anything they say seriously??
I am not very supportive of the Russian neo-fundamentalism. Nevertheless, this article could be rewritten with the exact opposite narrative and thus supportive of Putin and his orthodox patriotism. Not from the (more obvious) Russian point of view, but rather let’s say a reactionary point off view of a westerner. Indeed someone can argue that there is a lot at stake that is dragged into this war, though the initial trigger was the territorial control. The west now is claiming to fight for democracy on the grounds of Ukraine. This article too is praising the LGBDQ friendly new approach of Kyiv as a democratic process. Values and ideas one can talk much about.
As for the search into the tradition of the Orthodox church, this is a big issue barely touched by Elle Hardy. Diving in the theology and tradition of the Orthodox Church can create a rejuvenation to the West. But that’s a story to be seen ahead of us. And may the best win, in the seek for truth. In the Ukrainian war may no one win. The sooner it ends the better for those fighting and for the rest of us.
Peace, via negotiations and compromise..!
Interesting… Interesting… Wait, you say Russians are turning to God? Wait… you define turning to God as going to “faith healers” and psychics? That’s your concept of turning to God?
Try… orienting your heart and mind to the transcendent animating spirit that unifies all things? Try… being enabled to live differently than what the world expects in a way that motivates both self sacrifice, enlightenment, and love for the other (especially when you don’t feel like it)? Try… redeeming personal brokenness? You might try…
Interesting… Interesting… Wait, you say Russians are turning to God? Wait… you define turning to God as going to “faith healers” and psychics? That’s your concept of turning to God?
Try… orienting your heart and mind to the transcendent animating spirit that unifies all things? Try… being enabled to live differently than what the world expects in a way that motivates both self sacrifice, enlightenment, and love for the other (especially when you don’t feel like it)? Try… redeeming personal brokenness? You might try…
The real danger is not to Ukraine.
The real danger is Russian self harm.
Russia has entered these psychotic phases several times in its history. And when it does, Russians themselves become the main victims. Far more Russians died under Stalin than did citizens of Nazi Germany.
And with Strelkov’s arrest, the suppression machine is clearly taking on a life of its own. As we saw in Bucha and Irpin, the “officers” in charge of suppression are usually idiots, and will torture and kill people at random.
Give them carte blanche, and soon half the country will be behind bars– slowly starving to death, a la Navalny and Kara-Murza.
Doesn’t mean the West should gloat. We have our own problems.
But Russia may well turn “Raskolnik,” i.e. bar their door, and burn everyone inside to “cleanse” the nation…
The real danger is not to Ukraine.
The real danger is Russian self harm.
Russia has entered these psychotic phases several times in its history. And when it does, Russians themselves become the main victims. Far more Russians died under Stalin than did citizens of Nazi Germany.
And with Strelkov’s arrest, the suppression machine is clearly taking on a life of its own. As we saw in Bucha and Irpin, the “officers” in charge of suppression are usually idiots, and will torture and kill people at random.
Give them carte blanche, and soon half the country will be behind bars– slowly starving to death, a la Navalny and Kara-Murza.
Doesn’t mean the West should gloat. We have our own problems.
But Russia may well turn “Raskolnik,” i.e. bar their door, and burn everyone inside to “cleanse” the nation…
The fatuous posts below about “western decadence” exactly parallel similar Nazi tropes in the 30s and 40s.
I find this quite repugnant. It simply reflects the deep moral decay that has swept over Russia in the last 20 years.
To staunch it would have required a Solzhenitsyn. And sadly, no one like that has appeared in Russia–on any part of the political spectrum, although people like Zubov have tried.
I now very much fear that Russia’s moral decline is irreversible. And that will mean its physical dissolution as well.
The 90s are coming back with a vengeance.
Excellent.
Excellent.
The fatuous posts below about “western decadence” exactly parallel similar Nazi tropes in the 30s and 40s.
I find this quite repugnant. It simply reflects the deep moral decay that has swept over Russia in the last 20 years.
To staunch it would have required a Solzhenitsyn. And sadly, no one like that has appeared in Russia–on any part of the political spectrum, although people like Zubov have tried.
I now very much fear that Russia’s moral decline is irreversible. And that will mean its physical dissolution as well.
The 90s are coming back with a vengeance.
The Russian orthodox church has always been the passive enabler of whatever nonsense Moscow’s secular leaders purvey.
Indeed, it really dates back to Constantine, when the church became subordinate to the emperor. For the West, that stopped when the last western emperor was deposed in 476. But Caesero-Papism continued in Byzantium, and was taken over by Moscow after 1453.
So this is nothing new.
Would anyone downvoting care to challenge this analysis?
Sure. I’ll throw something brief in: the church didn’t become subordinate to the emperor under Constantine. Church leaders often felt free to criticise the emperor. They were expected to work together within their own realms of proper ministry. This lapsed into caesero-papism many times, especially in the Eastern Roman/Byzantine empire, but the times of clear caesero-papism and the times of state and church working in tandem are far from co-extensive. With regards to Russia, the memory of Saint Vladimir the great and of the Passion-bearers Saints Boris and Gleb in the 11th century is testament to Russia not always having such a toxic “enabling” relationship between believing church and “secular” leaders.
I must admit to a certain degree of frustration at the persistence of “Constantine is the root of all evil” narratives.
I don’t think there is any doubt that the Moscow patriarchate has been fatally tainted since Lenin came to power.
Individuals have undoubtedly led saintly lives.
But the whole structure is corrupt. Indeed, that was Solzhenitsyn’s main complaint against Orthodoxy.
I’m laughing as I write this.
So Eusebius wasn’t “subordinating” himself when he neglected to mention that Constantine had murdered his wife?
And most of the late Roman emperors who were Christian were just as ruthless. Valentinian I burned people alive. Gratian had the successful general Theodosius the Elder executed–purely because of court intrigue.
The Roman empire, both east or west, had the same dysfunctional problems with favoritism and cruelty that we see plaguing Moscow today.
Empires ae made to decline.
Silence is acceptance.
And the silence of Russians–especially those in the West who know better–damns them, however much they may talk about Russia’s “spiritual values.”
Silence is acceptance.
And the silence of Russians–especially those in the West who know better–damns them, however much they may talk about Russia’s “spiritual values.”
I don’t think there is any doubt that the Moscow patriarchate has been fatally tainted since Lenin came to power.
Individuals have undoubtedly led saintly lives.
But the whole structure is corrupt. Indeed, that was Solzhenitsyn’s main complaint against Orthodoxy.
I’m laughing as I write this.
So Eusebius wasn’t “subordinating” himself when he neglected to mention that Constantine had murdered his wife?
And most of the late Roman emperors who were Christian were just as ruthless. Valentinian I burned people alive. Gratian had the successful general Theodosius the Elder executed–purely because of court intrigue.
The Roman empire, both east or west, had the same dysfunctional problems with favoritism and cruelty that we see plaguing Moscow today.
Empires ae made to decline.
To pretend that Caesaro-Papism ended in 476 in the west overlooks centuries of papal pretention to the claim of temporal as well as spiritual authority over the western roman empire which lasts into the present day in severely truncated form at the Vatican.
Fair point, although i’m not sure there was any “pretending” – just a different take on the historical narrative.
So when did Papal pretension become more than pretensions?
Can’t think of many instances.
Separation of secular and religious authority is one of the engines that helped the West avoid the stagnation that Russia must perpetually slide back into.
Fair point, although i’m not sure there was any “pretending” – just a different take on the historical narrative.
So when did Papal pretension become more than pretensions?
Can’t think of many instances.
Separation of secular and religious authority is one of the engines that helped the West avoid the stagnation that Russia must perpetually slide back into.
Sure. I’ll throw something brief in: the church didn’t become subordinate to the emperor under Constantine. Church leaders often felt free to criticise the emperor. They were expected to work together within their own realms of proper ministry. This lapsed into caesero-papism many times, especially in the Eastern Roman/Byzantine empire, but the times of clear caesero-papism and the times of state and church working in tandem are far from co-extensive. With regards to Russia, the memory of Saint Vladimir the great and of the Passion-bearers Saints Boris and Gleb in the 11th century is testament to Russia not always having such a toxic “enabling” relationship between believing church and “secular” leaders.
I must admit to a certain degree of frustration at the persistence of “Constantine is the root of all evil” narratives.
To pretend that Caesaro-Papism ended in 476 in the west overlooks centuries of papal pretention to the claim of temporal as well as spiritual authority over the western roman empire which lasts into the present day in severely truncated form at the Vatican.
Would anyone downvoting care to challenge this analysis?
The Russian orthodox church has always been the passive enabler of whatever nonsense Moscow’s secular leaders purvey.
Indeed, it really dates back to Constantine, when the church became subordinate to the emperor. For the West, that stopped when the last western emperor was deposed in 476. But Caesero-Papism continued in Byzantium, and was taken over by Moscow after 1453.
So this is nothing new.