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The burning car represents impotent rage(Alaattin Dogru/Anadolu Agency via Getty)
What the street barricade was to France in the 19th century, the burning car has become in the 21st: a preferred means of violent protest, and a key theatrical symbol of political defiance. In 2005, after two boys named Zyed Benna and Bouna Traoré died while running from police, rioters burned close to 9,000 cars across France in unrest that ultimately led President Jacques Chirac to declare a state of emergency. This year, after an officer shot and killed a boy named Nahel who was trying to drive away from a police stop in the Paris suburb of Nanterre, thousands more cars have gone up in smoke, while shops and police stations have been attacked in hundreds of cities and towns across the country. The wave of violence has swept through the weekend.
But if the barricade remains a symbol of revolution, the burning car mostly represents impotent rage — and France’s political petrification. Street barricades had an important and clear purpose — to take control of neighbourhoods and to prevent the forces of public order from circulating through cities. True, the builders of 19th-century barricades usually went down to defeat, at least in the short term. In June of 1848, the army killed thousands in Paris, spelling an end to the radical phase of the short-lived Second Republic. In the spring of 1871, conservative republican forces slaughtered thousands more as they crushed the radical Paris Commune. But, in both cases, the people had shown their power, and in subsequent decades French governments moved to grant at least some of their demands. In the decades after the Commune, French workers gained paid vacations, a minimum wage, old-age pensions, the right to strike, and public works programs. Church and state were separated, and the educational system put under state control.
By contrast, the burning car of the 21st has done little for the communities in question, or to help advance the rioters’ professed goals. Quite the contrary, in fact. Most immediately, the cars themselves belong overwhelmingly to members of the same communities as the rioters. And in the longer term, the events of the past week are most likely to benefit the far-Right, possibly even bring it to power in the next presidential election. This is not the fault of the rioters, who have desperately few options for constructive action. It is rather the product of France’s changing political landscape in the 21st-century.
The rioters’ professed goals are easily summarised. They want an end to police violence against members of their community, and more broadly an end to discrimination against them. They wanted the same things in 2005, even if hooligans took advantage of the unrest for their own purposes, as they are doing now.
The communities in question are, as the French put it, “issued from immigration”, principally from North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa. When they started arriving in France in large numbers in the Fifties and Sixties, they followed many other waves of foreign immigrants to the country: of Italians, Jews, Poles, Spaniards, Portuguese and others. It is often forgotten, but between the wars France was the leading country of immigration in the Western world, and by the Eighties fully a quarter of the French population could count at least one grandparent born elsewhere. These earlier immigrant groups often met with discrimination, violence, and even — under the collaborationist Vichy regime of World War II — deportation to Nazi death camps (a fate that also befell Jewish families with French roots going back centuries). But after the war their story gradually turned into a French success story, as assimilation took its course. The process was aided by the state’s heavy-handed insistence, implemented above all through an authoritarian school system, that groups could only gain acceptance if they wholly abandoned their earlier national identities and embraced a French one. Today, it is not unusual to find people with Italian, Polish, Jewish or Iberian surnames in the wealthiest and most visible strata of French society.
But this process has, so far, happened far more slowly and less completely with the newer immigrant groups, especially those from North Africa. Cultural differences have been greater than with the earlier groups, while the schools lost much of their earlier zeal for turning students into model French citizens after the uprising of 1968 led to a massive overhaul of the French educational system. Most importantly, the new groups have been shunted away into suburban housing projects — the so-called cités — out of sight and out of mind of the country’s ruling elites. Numbers are hard to come by, because the French state, in the name of treating all its citizens equally, refuses to keep statistics on the relative economic performance of different ethnic and religious groups (or even their numbers). But every major French city is ringed by cités where people of North African and black African descent dominate, and where rates of unemployment, poverty and crime far exceed national averages. The government does admit that nearly six million people, or a tenth of the country’s population, inhabit so-called “urban policy priority districts”.
Writing after the 2005 riots, I concluded that “the French Republic… desperately needs to find some way to offer the youths of the suburbs a meaningful form of integration into broader society.” Needless to say, this has not happened. True, even before 2005, a steady stream from the new immigrant populations was escaping the cités and joining the French middle class, and that pattern has continued. President Emmanuel Macron’s cabinet today includes Rima Abdul-Malak, from a Lebanese Christian background, as Culture Minister, and Pap Ndiaye, son of a Senegalese father, as Education Minister. But the cités themselves remain as miserable as ever. Meanwhile, the horrific Islamist terror attacks of 2015, which killed hundreds, led the state to grant expanded powers to the police — in particular, loosening the restrictions in use of fatal force when officers feel threatened — which did nothing to reduce social tension.”
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SubscribeFor too long the West has been taking in far too many people. Because we did not roll out the red carpet and prostrate ourselves, we have been bullied as racists. If life was really so terrible, then why are they still there?
Multiculturalism just does not work. It creates a society even more divided than the homogeneous ones. We are living in the most miserable era in history even though we are at the most prosperous. “The community” is dead, and it has been replaced by tribes. The aristocracy has been replaced by the technocrats and political elite. The indifference is still there, so it should come as no surprise if Marine LePen wins the next election.
To be allowed to live in another country is a gift, yet it is all too often taken for granted.
Whatever the merits of your more general point, to subscribe to the idea that we’re “living in the most miserable period in history” wrecks any chance of it being taken seriously. As if you’d know how miserable or otherwise general populations were in previous eras? Concepts around mental health are a fairly recent addition to mainstream discourse, giving an entirely ahistorical perspective on the daily grind of previous generations.
I’d say you should let Peter enjoy a bit of rhetorical hyperbole. Perhaps, belabored a bit more, what he’s saying is that, given the material prosperity we enjoy, we are more miserable than we should be. Far more miserable. You’ve seen the stats for suicide, mental illness and now trans — the ultimate in misery and insanity combined.
You’re probably right, and my criticism of his “miserable” point was a little harsh, but i think it’s important to keep these things in proper perspective; it’s far too easy to simply doom-monger when our ancestors have been through hell and back and survived.
I would say it is the most miserable era *relative to material conditions* – and I suspect that may be his point.
Because our ancestors have been to hell and back we should have learned something. We haven’t.
Right Lesley , the younger generation appear to have regressed because of the medias push for communist propaganda . We know Biden works for and is paid big money by China and he has just undone decades of help and guidance to Taiwan from the U.S. by announcing no more help and support .
The Biden crime family has enriched themselves by many more millions from the CCP , no question about it .
Right Lesley , the younger generation appear to have regressed because of the medias push for communist propaganda . We know Biden works for and is paid big money by China and he has just undone decades of help and guidance to Taiwan from the U.S. by announcing no more help and support .
The Biden crime family has enriched themselves by many more millions from the CCP , no question about it .
Yeah. Poor old me philosophy doesn’t usually work, but there is obviously a big problem there which cannot be ignored. Immigrants mostly bring their own worldview with them. Some do mix in quite well but others, depending on the culture, don’t. These cultures usually come from places which are violent and where they would not have the priveleges, justice and safeguards that they get in their new country.
I would say it is the most miserable era *relative to material conditions* – and I suspect that may be his point.
Because our ancestors have been to hell and back we should have learned something. We haven’t.
Yeah. Poor old me philosophy doesn’t usually work, but there is obviously a big problem there which cannot be ignored. Immigrants mostly bring their own worldview with them. Some do mix in quite well but others, depending on the culture, don’t. These cultures usually come from places which are violent and where they would not have the priveleges, justice and safeguards that they get in their new country.
You’re probably right, and my criticism of his “miserable” point was a little harsh, but i think it’s important to keep these things in proper perspective; it’s far too easy to simply doom-monger when our ancestors have been through hell and back and survived.
I’d say you should let Peter enjoy a bit of rhetorical hyperbole. Perhaps, belabored a bit more, what he’s saying is that, given the material prosperity we enjoy, we are more miserable than we should be. Far more miserable. You’ve seen the stats for suicide, mental illness and now trans — the ultimate in misery and insanity combined.
Defining a unity by difference makes no logical sense – a multicultural society. A unity requires a definition that unites: identifies common characteristics.
This is the root of the problem. I’ve been an American expat in Ireland for one year, another in the Netherlands, and two years in France. Tourists and immigrants need to behave as visitors to others’ home land, attempt to speak the language and behave respectfully in that culture. Over time, the locals may appreciate certain traits that you bring to the table, or they may not. Either way you need to make an attempt to assimilate. Multiculturalism implies multiple cultures can coexist. The melting pot that is America accepts many nationalities, but only one culture. Diverse influences far from its British roots, but one set of values nonetheless. Europe is learning that hard lesson real time.
Which culture is that? Baseball caps? McDonalds?
E Pluribus Unum
Perhaps it’s the novels of Henry James, Edith Wharton, Scott Fitzgerald, Herman Melville, and Nathaniel Hawthorne.
Why be so nasty? It is a culture of fierce individualism, exploration, invention and optimism. Or, at least, it has been and that is the dream. Culture exists today, not just in the art and buildings of those long dead.
E Pluribus Unum
Perhaps it’s the novels of Henry James, Edith Wharton, Scott Fitzgerald, Herman Melville, and Nathaniel Hawthorne.
Why be so nasty? It is a culture of fierce individualism, exploration, invention and optimism. Or, at least, it has been and that is the dream. Culture exists today, not just in the art and buildings of those long dead.
But is the US a haven of interracial peace and harmony?
“The melting pot that was America accepted many nationalities, but only one culture.” This corrected description is more accurate of America today. We are now a salad without enough dressing to hold it together.
Canada is the only nation that has officially accepted multiculturalism, and with enormous immigration it is still rather peaceful.
Do you think that may be something to do with being the second largest nation on Earth, with a population of only 35 million?
Do you think that may be something to do with being the second largest nation on Earth, with a population of only 35 million?
Canada is the only nation that has officially accepted multiculturalism, and with enormous immigration it is still rather peaceful.
There is a strong tendency for people from a Jewish background , like myself , and the writer of this article, to think of immigrants as victims and any movement to curb immigration as nationalist and racist , and even neo -nazi .
David A Bell is also a US citizen and , despite being seemingly a (Princeton) historian of Napoleonic France , has a typically American perspective on these riots , saying they are about justice and an end to police brutality . However the rioters in France were not the descendants of slaves and were part of a quite recent voluntary migration . Nevertheless he sees them as merely defending themselves from a racist and oppressive state .
Thus the experience of US blacks is mixed up in his mind with the experience of Jews in the holocaust to bring about a distorted take on what is happening , with the threat being not from the rioters themselves but supposedly from a potential far -right reaction .
Which culture is that? Baseball caps? McDonalds?
But is the US a haven of interracial peace and harmony?
“The melting pot that was America accepted many nationalities, but only one culture.” This corrected description is more accurate of America today. We are now a salad without enough dressing to hold it together.
There is a strong tendency for people from a Jewish background , like myself , and the writer of this article, to think of immigrants as victims and any movement to curb immigration as nationalist and racist , and even neo -nazi .
David A Bell is also a US citizen and , despite being seemingly a (Princeton) historian of Napoleonic France , has a typically American perspective on these riots , saying they are about justice and an end to police brutality . However the rioters in France were not the descendants of slaves and were part of a quite recent voluntary migration . Nevertheless he sees them as merely defending themselves from a racist and oppressive state .
Thus the experience of US blacks is mixed up in his mind with the experience of Jews in the holocaust to bring about a distorted take on what is happening , with the threat being not from the rioters themselves but supposedly from a potential far -right reaction .
The young islamist generation at least in Scandinavia loves segregation, they seek it. Many not so islamist in thinking just prioritize their culture, the clan and family even if they re employed in the public sector. The result is sabotage, and corruption.
There is a chance that Sweden may be learning their lesson and be more discerning as to who they allow in.
Water and oil don’t mix, neither do Islam with Western Culture.
It is not “far right” that rises in France it is just the right who are their only bulwark against the French communists who really are very radical and many of them were illegals who brought their extreme communism with them when they invaded .
It is not “far right” that rises in France it is just the right who are their only bulwark against the French communists who really are very radical and many of them were illegals who brought their extreme communism with them when they invaded .
There is a chance that Sweden may be learning their lesson and be more discerning as to who they allow in.
Water and oil don’t mix, neither do Islam with Western Culture.
Multiculturalism was never the intention . It was assumed all migrants would integrate into mainstream society . When it became obvious many migrant groups had no desire or intention to do so ‘multiculturalism’ was wheeled out to describe and validate the unlooked for new reality .
Some immigrants are bringing in partly a better culture than that we have drifted into. The uprising against schools that are grooming their children here and in Canada was headed up by Islamic families whilst most western families, not all, who agreed with them couldn’t find the courage to do the same.
Didn’t stop the ‘superior culture’ they came here with encouraging the grooming of thousands of white girls most infamously in Rotherham , but elsewhere too .
Didn’t stop the ‘superior culture’ they came here with encouraging the grooming of thousands of white girls most infamously in Rotherham , but elsewhere too .
This. “It was assumed all migrants would integrate into mainstream society”.
Exactly. Welcome and peace.
But don’t try to change the place that welcomed you. YOU change to fit in.
Some immigrants are bringing in partly a better culture than that we have drifted into. The uprising against schools that are grooming their children here and in Canada was headed up by Islamic families whilst most western families, not all, who agreed with them couldn’t find the courage to do the same.
This. “It was assumed all migrants would integrate into mainstream society”.
Exactly. Welcome and peace.
But don’t try to change the place that welcomed you. YOU change to fit in.
This is the root of the problem. I’ve been an American expat in Ireland for one year, another in the Netherlands, and two years in France. Tourists and immigrants need to behave as visitors to others’ home land, attempt to speak the language and behave respectfully in that culture. Over time, the locals may appreciate certain traits that you bring to the table, or they may not. Either way you need to make an attempt to assimilate. Multiculturalism implies multiple cultures can coexist. The melting pot that is America accepts many nationalities, but only one culture. Diverse influences far from its British roots, but one set of values nonetheless. Europe is learning that hard lesson real time.
The young islamist generation at least in Scandinavia loves segregation, they seek it. Many not so islamist in thinking just prioritize their culture, the clan and family even if they re employed in the public sector. The result is sabotage, and corruption.
Multiculturalism was never the intention . It was assumed all migrants would integrate into mainstream society . When it became obvious many migrant groups had no desire or intention to do so ‘multiculturalism’ was wheeled out to describe and validate the unlooked for new reality .
I’ve come to the same conclusion. Until fairly recently, I was still defending multiculturalism. The last 8 years have led me to the conclusion that this has been Western Europe’s biggest mistake. Taking in vast numbers of people from other countries will only work long term if they are close enough to the home culture that living side by side doesn’t create parallel societies. See: the refugees from the former Yugoslavia who came to Austria in massive numbers in the 90s. Close historical and cultural ties meant that they have slotted right into life here. Just a generation later, they are holding leading positions in economic and political life (e.g. Alma Zadic, the Minister for Justice).
I just don’t see the same thing happening for the people who have come in in the past 8 years. A study was done recently about the attitudes of different groups of immigrants in Austria. It found that 50% (yes, you read that right) of new immigrants from Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria thought that Austrian women are “too free”. How are we supposed to deal with that? This is too far away from our own culture to accept and hardcore assimilation measures will just provoke a backlash.
At the end of the day, it’s our culture, our equality, our rights – we shouldn’t have to budge an inch to be accomodating or be called racists for that refusal. But it’s a forlorn hope to think that all of those entrants will simply say en masse “oh yes, you are right!”, abandon their original belief systems and slot right in. Social tension will be the result, 10-15 years down the line. I think many people in Germany and Austria are looking at the unrest in France and know that we are looking at our own future.
Ironically, one of the main drivers behind my change of heart about multiculturalism was my own experience of integrating in a foreign country and living side by side with Vienna’s immigrant groups (10th district).
When you’ve been through integration yourself, you a) get VERY tough indeed in your attitudes to people who don’t bother to engage with their adoptive home and its culture, and b) realise that any talk of the state somehow being able to influence integration is utter rubbish. Integration is a personal decision, the state cannot control it. If members of a certain group are consistently failing to integrate and causing trouble, you have to stop them coming in. It is that simple.
My goodness, 25-year-old me would not believe that 41 year-old-me would write such things. And yet here we are.
Don’t despair!
Wait until you reach 80+ before coming to any meaningful conclusions!
Well, I’m 83 and am glad she has put away childish things and recognized hard reality. Better late than never… except when it’s too late.
Well, I’m 83 and am glad she has put away childish things and recognized hard reality. Better late than never… except when it’s too late.
I had the same experience when I moved to Germany. I did not speak a word of German at the time and I got on very well with migrants of various backgrounds. I was appalled at how hateful they were to the Germans and yet they themselves made no effort. Luckily I persisted and picked up the language and with it the culture. Being an Australian made it easier because the core beliefs were similar. I would not have to betray anything to fit it.
And there you have it Katherine, you are correct in saying that some cultures just don’t fit together. Far from being a horrible thing, it is in fact a wonderful thing. It is a big planet and there is room for different belief systems. Bringing people in from Africa or the Middle East or Asia is not the answer.
The time has come to speak up with kindness and acceptance. The time has come for a lot of people to head home.
Well done for making the effort. We English speakers have an advantage that other immigrants don’t, in that our native language is the global language. And plenty of English-speaking expats therefore think that they don’t have to bother learning the local language. Such an arrogant and disrespectful approach. The same demands for language fluency should apply to everyone, and 3 years in a country is enough to absorb enough of the language to do the basics independently (going to the supermarket, the doctor, getting stuff done with the authorities).
I’ve met immigrants in Austria that have been there for 30+ years and still can’t put a decent sentence together in German and I honestly have no idea how that is possible.
Good point, Katherine and Peter D. I’ve lived in Hungary for several years, and while I do make a lot of mistakes when speaking the language, I use it as much as possible outside of my job (I’m an English teacher) I feel it’s a must to learn the local language. While many younger people speak English, lots of older people do not, and I would be unable to communicate with my neighbours, kids’ teachers, shopkeepers and many others. In the capital, Budapest, a lot of people don’t bother, as it’s such a multicultural city, where many speak English, but where I live (a village) you need to know at least a basic level of Hungarian. I also feel incredibly grateful for living here. Despite what the media say, it’s a great place to live, very safe with lovely people.
I loved Budapest as well although I was only there for a week with my wife. They don’t seem to have any immigrants, so it is easier for them at the moment.
Yes, Budapest is a beautiful city and much safer than many other capitals. Hungary has become much more multicultural, even in smaller cities and towns, but definitely more so in Budapest. There is still a sense of social cohesion, though (although I’m not sure about Budapest, as I don’t live there) I think a lot of it is down to Hungarians not being willing to sacrifice their culture. People are generally expected to integrate and learn the language (again less so in Budapest, which is more of a melting pot and where many people speak English) Also, the immigration being slower probably allowed for better integration.
Yes, Budapest is a beautiful city and much safer than many other capitals. Hungary has become much more multicultural, even in smaller cities and towns, but definitely more so in Budapest. There is still a sense of social cohesion, though (although I’m not sure about Budapest, as I don’t live there) I think a lot of it is down to Hungarians not being willing to sacrifice their culture. People are generally expected to integrate and learn the language (again less so in Budapest, which is more of a melting pot and where many people speak English) Also, the immigration being slower probably allowed for better integration.
I loved Budapest as well although I was only there for a week with my wife. They don’t seem to have any immigrants, so it is easier for them at the moment.
Correct…try learning Greek though!
Ancient or Modern?
The great advantage the British had was that Latin and Greek was taught from the mid 16th century. The rigour of the training to learn Greek made learning semitic Arabic relatively easy and the Aryian languages such as Persian( language of the Mughal Empire ) , Urdu and Hindi were straightforward. Many of the SOE officers who fought in Greece and the Balkans were classicists which helped them learn the languages.
Indeed, and it is little short of a national disgrace that we have virtually given up on teaching these languages.
e.g. Enoch Powell.
Indeed, and it is little short of a national disgrace that we have virtually given up on teaching these languages.
e.g. Enoch Powell.
The great advantage the British had was that Latin and Greek was taught from the mid 16th century. The rigour of the training to learn Greek made learning semitic Arabic relatively easy and the Aryian languages such as Persian( language of the Mughal Empire ) , Urdu and Hindi were straightforward. Many of the SOE officers who fought in Greece and the Balkans were classicists which helped them learn the languages.
Child’s play! Give Welsh a go!!
It sounds like Greek to me!
My husband is trying to learn Greek. Ho hum.
Efkaristo!
Efkaristo!
Ancient or Modern?
Child’s play! Give Welsh a go!!
It sounds like Greek to me!
My husband is trying to learn Greek. Ho hum.
I lived in Austria for a year, and outside of work, where communication had to be ‘business clear’ — spoke my bad German. I got corrected constantly (well, they are Austrians!) but also quickly became beloved. I have a quick wit that helped, but the main thing was that I realized that people just will not speak English or another non-native language after 5:00 PM. If you want to drink with people, you have to go all in with your miserable German — which won’t stay that way.
“The same demands for language fluency should apply to everyone, and 3 years in a country is enough to absorb enough of the language to do the basics independently”
Three months.
A bumper sticker I saw in Florida: “Welcome to America. Now learn English.”
A bumper sticker I saw in Florida: “Welcome to America. Now learn English.”
Good point, Katherine and Peter D. I’ve lived in Hungary for several years, and while I do make a lot of mistakes when speaking the language, I use it as much as possible outside of my job (I’m an English teacher) I feel it’s a must to learn the local language. While many younger people speak English, lots of older people do not, and I would be unable to communicate with my neighbours, kids’ teachers, shopkeepers and many others. In the capital, Budapest, a lot of people don’t bother, as it’s such a multicultural city, where many speak English, but where I live (a village) you need to know at least a basic level of Hungarian. I also feel incredibly grateful for living here. Despite what the media say, it’s a great place to live, very safe with lovely people.
Correct…try learning Greek though!
I lived in Austria for a year, and outside of work, where communication had to be ‘business clear’ — spoke my bad German. I got corrected constantly (well, they are Austrians!) but also quickly became beloved. I have a quick wit that helped, but the main thing was that I realized that people just will not speak English or another non-native language after 5:00 PM. If you want to drink with people, you have to go all in with your miserable German — which won’t stay that way.
“The same demands for language fluency should apply to everyone, and 3 years in a country is enough to absorb enough of the language to do the basics independently”
Three months.
Peter,
Core beliefs? Do you mean your common Christian heritage?
For some of us that is true although I know that on the whole there is a rejection of the Christian culture it would appear.
For some of us that is true although I know that on the whole there is a rejection of the Christian culture it would appear.
One thing I find annoying is that when female journaliats go to Muslim countries they wear a scarf out of respect. However, when Muslims come to a non- Muslim country they don’t take it off out of respect. There is female journalist on CNN, living in London, who talks about the persecution of women in Iran if they don’t cover their hair, but she wears a hijab. It seems hypocritical to me.
It is probably safer for her in Iran if she did wear the hijab. Women have been tortured there for not wearing one.
That’s my point. She’s not in Iran.
That’s my point. She’s not in Iran.
You don’t understand hijab. It is are a religious observance undertaken by pious Muslim women (cf. also, the yarmulke, a religious observance undertaken by pious Jewish men). The CNN journalist is, evidently, a pious Muslim, so she wears hijab, but she also rightly objects to the persecution of thoroughly or somewhat secular Muslim women who chose not to undertake the observance. How exactly is it hypocritical to undertake a religious observance, while being solicitous of the human rights of those who choose not to undertake it?
It is probably safer for her in Iran if she did wear the hijab. Women have been tortured there for not wearing one.
You don’t understand hijab. It is are a religious observance undertaken by pious Muslim women (cf. also, the yarmulke, a religious observance undertaken by pious Jewish men). The CNN journalist is, evidently, a pious Muslim, so she wears hijab, but she also rightly objects to the persecution of thoroughly or somewhat secular Muslim women who chose not to undertake the observance. How exactly is it hypocritical to undertake a religious observance, while being solicitous of the human rights of those who choose not to undertake it?
They fled from those hell holes for good reason. Nothing but force will persuade them to return.
t
Well done for making the effort. We English speakers have an advantage that other immigrants don’t, in that our native language is the global language. And plenty of English-speaking expats therefore think that they don’t have to bother learning the local language. Such an arrogant and disrespectful approach. The same demands for language fluency should apply to everyone, and 3 years in a country is enough to absorb enough of the language to do the basics independently (going to the supermarket, the doctor, getting stuff done with the authorities).
I’ve met immigrants in Austria that have been there for 30+ years and still can’t put a decent sentence together in German and I honestly have no idea how that is possible.
Peter,
Core beliefs? Do you mean your common Christian heritage?
One thing I find annoying is that when female journaliats go to Muslim countries they wear a scarf out of respect. However, when Muslims come to a non- Muslim country they don’t take it off out of respect. There is female journalist on CNN, living in London, who talks about the persecution of women in Iran if they don’t cover their hair, but she wears a hijab. It seems hypocritical to me.
They fled from those hell holes for good reason. Nothing but force will persuade them to return.
t
“50% (yes, you read that right) of new immigrants from Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria thought that Austrian women are “too free”.”
It’s probably more than 50%, it’s probably as high even amongst second generation immigrants from that part….
But the most worrying part is, the majority of Austrian women (or other W European or US / Canadian) women would still support “human right” and immigration, and call you racist for suggesting there might be a tiny problem.
While also complaining about “misogyny” and “patriarchy ” in Western cultures.
Misguided compassion not based on truth.
Misguided compassion not based on truth.
Is there a better and worse way to live a human life? Pose that question to almost anyone and immediately you will hear “yes, of course.” But on reflection doubt sets in. One usually doesn’t have to wait terribly long. This is the pickle in which the modern world has situated itself.
I thought it was pretty obvious how to live a better life. The trouble is we have a weakness for doing the wrong thing occasionally.
I thought it was pretty obvious how to live a better life. The trouble is we have a weakness for doing the wrong thing occasionally.
I’ve experienced a similar change of heart, Katherine – I also wonder what the younger (idealistic) me would think of the older me’s current beliefs. In my case, it was teaching students with migrant backgrounds, starting about a decade ago, that prompted a rethink. Many of my students had been here for decades but their English was often poor (and partly explained their tendency to plagiarise – plus many didn’t appear to have a cultural aversion to the idea of cheating), they were insulated from wider society (to the extent that I was often one of the few British people they interacted with), and they were wildly naive about what it takes to become successful in this country. The experience really opened my eyes. Plus, there’s a lot of research on the impacts of migration on social cohesion showing the latter is adversely affected by rapid, mass migration. I could conveniently ignore this like others do but that strikes me as cowardly. If the evidence is staring you in the face and there’s enough of it, then it can’t be ignored.
You are quite right but perhaps you are more qualified to speak up than some.
You are quite right but perhaps you are more qualified to speak up than some.
Please don’t patronise by using the word ” culture”?! Be honest, this is a racial and Islamic issue, so why pretend otherwise?
Culture’s premise is religion.
In America African American culture is different than European culture but it’s not based on religion.
on raggae , rap and dope?
Yes. And reflexive homicidal violence.
I was in a nightmare living next to that stuff in London. Their children can sleep through it but mostly we cannot.
Yes. And reflexive homicidal violence.
I was in a nightmare living next to that stuff in London. Their children can sleep through it but mostly we cannot.
It is mostly Christian culture I believe but expressed in the way of their culture. A lot of black culture into this country is an asset but not all of course.
on raggae , rap and dope?
It is mostly Christian culture I believe but expressed in the way of their culture. A lot of black culture into this country is an asset but not all of course.
In America African American culture is different than European culture but it’s not based on religion.
Maybe but one has to tread carefully with that otherwise it is counter productive. I have found in one culture that they do not have the capacity to forgive. It is not taught. If you offend them they might never forgive or forget it. In one sense this is their power over us and why some are afraid to offend them even the government.
Your kind of blunt honesty is out of fashion. Please adapt to the cringing new mores.
Nicky isn’t honest he’s mean.
And almost never constructive.
And almost never constructive.
Nicky isn’t honest he’s mean.
Culture’s premise is religion.
Maybe but one has to tread carefully with that otherwise it is counter productive. I have found in one culture that they do not have the capacity to forgive. It is not taught. If you offend them they might never forgive or forget it. In one sense this is their power over us and why some are afraid to offend them even the government.
Your kind of blunt honesty is out of fashion. Please adapt to the cringing new mores.
“My goodness, 25-year-old me would not believe that 41 year-old-me would write such things. And yet here we are”
And therein lies the problem. What made you a supporter of multiculturalism? Were you persuaded to believe that having a negative view was low status?
Probably just lack of experience.
Something like that, yes. And for a long time I was afraid to criticise it for fear of being labelled racist or intolerant. I also thought that displaying boundless tolerance was to take the high moral road.
These days I think tolerance is only a good thing in moderation.
And the dilemma we now face is this: because we have driven ourselves into a cul de sac with our own kindness, welcome culture, exaggerated tolerance and naive belief that our liberal societies can withstand anything, we now need to reverse the other way to get out. Be tougher, less permissive, also more authoritarian…in order that our liberal societies can survive. The irony…
Get ready for some unpleasant showdowns.
People’s views tend to mature as they get older. That is why Starmer’s intention to give the vote to sixteen year olds could be a disaster although it will bring him more votes.
“Could be” ought to be changed to “will be”. Teenagers are very emotional and apt to follow the bright shiny things even if they are dangerous.
“Could be” ought to be changed to “will be”. Teenagers are very emotional and apt to follow the bright shiny things even if they are dangerous.
I understand exactly what you say.
The pressure on individuals to censor themselves and keep quiet has been a very potent weapon
People’s views tend to mature as they get older. That is why Starmer’s intention to give the vote to sixteen year olds could be a disaster although it will bring him more votes.
I understand exactly what you say.
The pressure on individuals to censor themselves and keep quiet has been a very potent weapon
Probably just lack of experience.
Something like that, yes. And for a long time I was afraid to criticise it for fear of being labelled racist or intolerant. I also thought that displaying boundless tolerance was to take the high moral road.
These days I think tolerance is only a good thing in moderation.
And the dilemma we now face is this: because we have driven ourselves into a cul de sac with our own kindness, welcome culture, exaggerated tolerance and naive belief that our liberal societies can withstand anything, we now need to reverse the other way to get out. Be tougher, less permissive, also more authoritarian…in order that our liberal societies can survive. The irony…
Get ready for some unpleasant showdowns.
We all – every community – have been betrayed by the progressives or Leftists who saw multiculturalism as a weapon in their fight to overturn the traditional nation state and its core values and identity (family/Christianity). The UK has proven to be a better more tolerant melting pot than any other state, something magical, but no thanks to the demonic lefty politicians who from the 80s stopped assimilation in schools, branded our own culture as racist, turned a blind eye to horrors like honour killing and religious radicalisation and from the 90s just opened the floodgates to the one thing which always provokes friction – mass uncontrolled immigration and ghettoization. The Fake Blairite-Lite ‘Tories have continued with this EU/Blair Open Border policy for all 13 years, screwing up unplanned for public servives for all. And this unthinking Lab/Tory ‘Elite’ then let another new poison enter the bloodstream; state driven ideological identitarianism, casting the entire white native population as raycist and further appeasing threats like islamism. Our craven elite and the Left has wished this all upon us.
Well said.
You are right but who is going to listen? Certainly not the Tories who don’t have the will to stop the boat people most of whom are a completely different culture to us.
You’re a grown-up. Most people your age are still kids.
Excellent. Thank you for sharing. I think you hit the nail on the head.
I would caveat that by saying mass immigration of cultures vastly different than one’s own is a recipe for disaster. Everything moves along when the immigration numbers are small enough that those with great differences in belief never aspire to force change in the society they chose to join. But when those communities are large, and the country is democratic, they not only aspire to change the country, but demand it as a right.
And, in fact, they are not wrong. By inviting so many of the same opinion in and granting citizenship by the millions to them, in a democracy, they DO have that right.
Our blindness to this reality is the problem.
Don’t despair!
Wait until you reach 80+ before coming to any meaningful conclusions!
I had the same experience when I moved to Germany. I did not speak a word of German at the time and I got on very well with migrants of various backgrounds. I was appalled at how hateful they were to the Germans and yet they themselves made no effort. Luckily I persisted and picked up the language and with it the culture. Being an Australian made it easier because the core beliefs were similar. I would not have to betray anything to fit it.
And there you have it Katherine, you are correct in saying that some cultures just don’t fit together. Far from being a horrible thing, it is in fact a wonderful thing. It is a big planet and there is room for different belief systems. Bringing people in from Africa or the Middle East or Asia is not the answer.
The time has come to speak up with kindness and acceptance. The time has come for a lot of people to head home.
“50% (yes, you read that right) of new immigrants from Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria thought that Austrian women are “too free”.”
It’s probably more than 50%, it’s probably as high even amongst second generation immigrants from that part….
But the most worrying part is, the majority of Austrian women (or other W European or US / Canadian) women would still support “human right” and immigration, and call you racist for suggesting there might be a tiny problem.
While also complaining about “misogyny” and “patriarchy ” in Western cultures.
Is there a better and worse way to live a human life? Pose that question to almost anyone and immediately you will hear “yes, of course.” But on reflection doubt sets in. One usually doesn’t have to wait terribly long. This is the pickle in which the modern world has situated itself.
I’ve experienced a similar change of heart, Katherine – I also wonder what the younger (idealistic) me would think of the older me’s current beliefs. In my case, it was teaching students with migrant backgrounds, starting about a decade ago, that prompted a rethink. Many of my students had been here for decades but their English was often poor (and partly explained their tendency to plagiarise – plus many didn’t appear to have a cultural aversion to the idea of cheating), they were insulated from wider society (to the extent that I was often one of the few British people they interacted with), and they were wildly naive about what it takes to become successful in this country. The experience really opened my eyes. Plus, there’s a lot of research on the impacts of migration on social cohesion showing the latter is adversely affected by rapid, mass migration. I could conveniently ignore this like others do but that strikes me as cowardly. If the evidence is staring you in the face and there’s enough of it, then it can’t be ignored.
Please don’t patronise by using the word ” culture”?! Be honest, this is a racial and Islamic issue, so why pretend otherwise?
“My goodness, 25-year-old me would not believe that 41 year-old-me would write such things. And yet here we are”
And therein lies the problem. What made you a supporter of multiculturalism? Were you persuaded to believe that having a negative view was low status?
We all – every community – have been betrayed by the progressives or Leftists who saw multiculturalism as a weapon in their fight to overturn the traditional nation state and its core values and identity (family/Christianity). The UK has proven to be a better more tolerant melting pot than any other state, something magical, but no thanks to the demonic lefty politicians who from the 80s stopped assimilation in schools, branded our own culture as racist, turned a blind eye to horrors like honour killing and religious radicalisation and from the 90s just opened the floodgates to the one thing which always provokes friction – mass uncontrolled immigration and ghettoization. The Fake Blairite-Lite ‘Tories have continued with this EU/Blair Open Border policy for all 13 years, screwing up unplanned for public servives for all. And this unthinking Lab/Tory ‘Elite’ then let another new poison enter the bloodstream; state driven ideological identitarianism, casting the entire white native population as raycist and further appeasing threats like islamism. Our craven elite and the Left has wished this all upon us.
Well said.
You are right but who is going to listen? Certainly not the Tories who don’t have the will to stop the boat people most of whom are a completely different culture to us.
You’re a grown-up. Most people your age are still kids.
Excellent. Thank you for sharing. I think you hit the nail on the head.
I would caveat that by saying mass immigration of cultures vastly different than one’s own is a recipe for disaster. Everything moves along when the immigration numbers are small enough that those with great differences in belief never aspire to force change in the society they chose to join. But when those communities are large, and the country is democratic, they not only aspire to change the country, but demand it as a right.
And, in fact, they are not wrong. By inviting so many of the same opinion in and granting citizenship by the millions to them, in a democracy, they DO have that right.
Our blindness to this reality is the problem.
In the UK, “multiculturalism” means you are only allowed to criticise the British way of life: everything non-British is above reproach. France has tried to follow a different path, by trying to pretend that everyone in France must buy-in to French values. But it has become impossible to ignore the Islamic counter-culture that has been allowed to flourish in France. So centrist politicians, like Macron, have attempted appeasement, but ended up with the worst of both worlds.
Yes and to suggest there is such a thing as an indigenous Brit is a form of blasphemy (hate speech) punishable by excommunication (cancellation or even prosecution).
Try living in Australia where the indigenous population invented everything and it was a paradise until the white fellas showed up. Now we constantly have to acknowledge the elders past, present, and emerging. Have welcomes to country at every event. The Aboriginal flag and the Torres Strait Islander flag flies at every school.
Our kids are taught that Europeans poisoned the Aborigines and raped the women. And this at a primary school level (Elementary school for the Americans).
It is getting a bit much
There is no balance. The demonisation of the Europeans and idolisation of the Aboriginals (the noble savage). No, maybe that is a kind of balance but not the fruitful, beneficial kind. The attitudes reveal more about the bearer of the attitudes than the object.
Did not many British convicts suffer and die whilst working (hard Labour) on the establishment and construction of modern Australia? Assuming they didn’t die whilst being transported.
‘Transportation’ as it was called, was the alternative to public hanging* and seen as a rather benign policy that had the added advantage of populating the Empire**.
(* In effect slow strangulation.)
(**Albeit with undesirables!)
Reminds me of a joke – no doubt politically incorrect. A British businessman on being asked if he had a criminal record, when going through Australian passport control, replied he didn’t know it was still a requirement.
Off course those convicts were accompanied by Warders, which some say was the major contributing factor in Australia’s completely ridiculous OTT response to the Scamdemic.
Good one!
I think it was English cricketer on Ashes tour.
Sod PC.
Off course those convicts were accompanied by Warders, which some say was the major contributing factor in Australia’s completely ridiculous OTT response to the Scamdemic.
Good one!
I think it was English cricketer on Ashes tour.
Sod PC.
Ahh.. hence why of course Australia has such an intellectual and artistic learned culture… blaggism?
Well it does explain the extraordinary display of Australian sportsmanship we witnessed yesterday at Lord’s.
But the trick was first deployed by English cricketer Grace?
But the trick was first deployed by English cricketer Grace?
Well it does explain the extraordinary display of Australian sportsmanship we witnessed yesterday at Lord’s.
Transportation was only to Australia. Prior to 1857, The East India Company was staffed largely by younger sons of gentry and merchant classes. Britain was unusual compared to other European countries because it had a large yeoman, franklin, merchant and gentry classes whose younger sons received an education( a very tough one based upon Classics, Maths contact sports and Christianity ), a little money and the family name: the rest was up to them. Continental Europe had an aristocratic class whose sons lived off the family estate and never went into business or overseas : the result was The French Revolution.
What we see today in France is result of a despotic absolute monarchy, brittle aristocracy , supported by a dissolute clergy overthrown by doctrinaire brittle intellectual middle class. In the case of England, Parliament , which means to speak, is an evolution of the Anglo Saxon monarchy rule through consultation and consent; re stated by Edward III belief “That which affects all must be consulted by all ” and further developed in The Glorius Revolution and The Bill of Rights of 1689. The British system has evolved based upon learning from experience.
France today is conflict between Republican( Royalists have little influence )Catholic Conservatives and atheistic Marxists, both are doctrinaire, intellectual, haughty, unbalanced, and brittle. They lack the elasticity, supplenesss, emotional balance and stability where evolution requires organisms to be responsive to survive and thrive. If one looks at top athletes in tennis, football, rugby, boxing, martial arts, etc one of their skills is the ability to accelerate while changing direction, keeping their balance and remaining in control.
France has allowed into their country large numbers of people who lack the abilities to enter advanced manufacturing and the knowledge economy plus who ignore laicite which is a very brittle doctrinaire belief.
Prior to Australia didn’t we transport to the American Colonies?
Absolutely correct! But a certain “War of Independence” put paid to that little scheme. In 1787, the Botany Bay “experiment” began and the rest is history.
Yes
Absolutely correct! But a certain “War of Independence” put paid to that little scheme. In 1787, the Botany Bay “experiment” began and the rest is history.
Yes
Prior to Australia didn’t we transport to the American Colonies?
Reminds me of a joke – no doubt politically incorrect. A British businessman on being asked if he had a criminal record, when going through Australian passport control, replied he didn’t know it was still a requirement.
Ahh.. hence why of course Australia has such an intellectual and artistic learned culture… blaggism?
Transportation was only to Australia. Prior to 1857, The East India Company was staffed largely by younger sons of gentry and merchant classes. Britain was unusual compared to other European countries because it had a large yeoman, franklin, merchant and gentry classes whose younger sons received an education( a very tough one based upon Classics, Maths contact sports and Christianity ), a little money and the family name: the rest was up to them. Continental Europe had an aristocratic class whose sons lived off the family estate and never went into business or overseas : the result was The French Revolution.
What we see today in France is result of a despotic absolute monarchy, brittle aristocracy , supported by a dissolute clergy overthrown by doctrinaire brittle intellectual middle class. In the case of England, Parliament , which means to speak, is an evolution of the Anglo Saxon monarchy rule through consultation and consent; re stated by Edward III belief “That which affects all must be consulted by all ” and further developed in The Glorius Revolution and The Bill of Rights of 1689. The British system has evolved based upon learning from experience.
France today is conflict between Republican( Royalists have little influence )Catholic Conservatives and atheistic Marxists, both are doctrinaire, intellectual, haughty, unbalanced, and brittle. They lack the elasticity, supplenesss, emotional balance and stability where evolution requires organisms to be responsive to survive and thrive. If one looks at top athletes in tennis, football, rugby, boxing, martial arts, etc one of their skills is the ability to accelerate while changing direction, keeping their balance and remaining in control.
France has allowed into their country large numbers of people who lack the abilities to enter advanced manufacturing and the knowledge economy plus who ignore laicite which is a very brittle doctrinaire belief.
Well they became a great culture in the end apart from the last ten or twenty years which can apply to all western nations.
‘Transportation’ as it was called, was the alternative to public hanging* and seen as a rather benign policy that had the added advantage of populating the Empire**.
(* In effect slow strangulation.)
(**Albeit with undesirables!)
Well they became a great culture in the end apart from the last ten or twenty years which can apply to all western nations.
That is a perfect example of what happens with uncontrolled immigration, from the Aboriginal perspective of course. You see you are descended from immigrants that ignored rules and culture of the natives and eventually all but eliminated it and restricted it to few isolated spots, similar scenario unfolded in North America of course. Not sure this is some sort of poetic justice, but perhaps just a way human societies work. We cannot be bothered to have children any more as it doesn’t fit with our hedonistic priorities (I’m not an exception there), so those cultures that are increasing in numbers will take more prominent place. Not making any moral judgment either way, just trying to understand the drivers of the process.
The so-called natives of australia and New Zealand (and the US) weren’t so native at all. The same with the Turks, so how far do you want to go back with your grievances? Why the double standards where the west (i.e. white people) is involved?
I’m really not sure what grievances and double standards you have in mind. I explicitly said that I’m not making any moral judgement on the process. I think you are making assumptions on what I think, not what I actually wrote. I was simply looking at the past examples of mass immigration and effect it had on incumbent population and culture. It was clearly catastrophic, in my opinion. E.g. ‘native’ Americans went from 100% of population to less then 1%, and of course they lost 99% of resources (mainly land) in the process. If the term native is correct, or not they were established populations over many centuries. Of course, everyone has moved from somewhere at some point in the past. That is the whole thing, we think we can freeze these migrations at the point when we are happy with the setup, and this is not the case, it will keep happening and defining factor will be population size and perceived benefits of certain move, as it has always been.
Respectfully, the Australian aborigines claiming that the Brits destroyed their rich culture is a bit… erm…
You’re very much right that the entire of history is essentially groups moving around, and plundering, or displacing others (often by force). Having said that, at the time of British arrival aboriginal Australians were essentially running around killing each other in the bush. Incest and child rape were commonplace, as was human sacrifice. Despite the quite abundant natural conditions, starvation was common. Pillaging and murder of other tribes was commonplace; easier than hunting and picking for yourself.
That is perhaps a result of isolation for so long (no exposure to new ideas, to prompt change), I’m not an expert on these matters so I won’t speculate too deeply. And I really don’t wish to be churlish, but it’s rather fatuous for their current “elders” to be attempting to revise history with the notion that they were akin to the ancient Greeks, until these barbarians arrived from Europe and destroyed everything they had built. That’s just objectively nonsense on stilts. There was nothing to destroy, they hadn’t bothered to build anything.
I feel like, given the day and age we are now in, that I must now explicitly add the disclaimer of the bleeding obvious: none of the above is a defence of barbaric treatment of native cultures by invading ones. [Eye roll at having to state the obvious, but this is 2023]. Anyhow, I think the point stands otherwise, and is robust enough to stand up to scrutiny. There have been many great cultures burned to ash by invaders, and some middling or crap ones burned to ash by invaders. Nowadays I think it is taboo to accept this fact — any lost culture or practice must be treated as hallowed and saturated in ‘ancient wisdom’, even if was one centred around cannibalism, or incest, with absolutely no cultural artefacts of value. It’s a bit weird.
Appropos of nothing the Tiwi islands off the coast of Darwin have the largest per capita of indigenous transgender people in Australia. I found that interesting because they haven’t been influenced by social media or social trends.
How interesting, I didn’t know that. I wonder if there is an environmental factor there that we are unaware of?
Like it’s in the water?!
Actually not as crazy as it sounds. Alex Jones was right about the water turning the frogs queer! …he got lambasted and mocked for saying that, but despite his typical bombastic presentation he was right — a study had found that atrazine (a pesticide) in the water was responsible for making male frogs grow female sex organs. This phenomenon is “chemical feminization”.
Some of the other common environmental contaminants, like glyphosate, are also capable of acting as powerful endocrine disrupters. They enter the food supply and waterways, and end up in our bodies.
I appreciate that this sounds wacky, but if you look up the atrazine / feminization thing, or glyphosate / endocrine dysfunction, you will find that it’s actually reasonably plausible that we could see broad based ‘sex effects’ off the back of hormone disruption from environmental factors. No doubt there are social factors too (especially in the west, where gender is almost a new religion), but a physical driver may also be at play.
Yes, and estrogen in river water from the birth control pill and estrogen from plastics. It would seem like it’s time for some research because there’s also an increase in breast cancer.
Yes, and estrogen in river water from the birth control pill and estrogen from plastics. It would seem like it’s time for some research because there’s also an increase in breast cancer.
Actually not as crazy as it sounds. Alex Jones was right about the water turning the frogs queer! …he got lambasted and mocked for saying that, but despite his typical bombastic presentation he was right — a study had found that atrazine (a pesticide) in the water was responsible for making male frogs grow female sex organs. This phenomenon is “chemical feminization”.
Some of the other common environmental contaminants, like glyphosate, are also capable of acting as powerful endocrine disrupters. They enter the food supply and waterways, and end up in our bodies.
I appreciate that this sounds wacky, but if you look up the atrazine / feminization thing, or glyphosate / endocrine dysfunction, you will find that it’s actually reasonably plausible that we could see broad based ‘sex effects’ off the back of hormone disruption from environmental factors. No doubt there are social factors too (especially in the west, where gender is almost a new religion), but a physical driver may also be at play.
Like it’s in the water?!
How interesting, I didn’t know that. I wonder if there is an environmental factor there that we are unaware of?
Darwin would have written “evolutionary dead end” in his notebook upon observing the First Nations of Australia …
Where do you get that information about child rape, incests and human sacrifice in Aboriginal Australian communities? I’m aware of current problems with child abuse in those communities, but that’s not evidence of what happened before we arrived 250 years ago when their living arrangements and societies were of course very different. That they built nothing is hardly a criticism. I’m envious of your ability to distinguish great cultures from middling and crap ones.
I’m sorry you’ve taken offense at my views Jake.
I happen to know a fair bit about the matter because I’m an avid reader and researcher, and we have a ‘transported’ English convict in our family line (end up in Tasmania).
“I’m envious of your ability to distinguish great cultures from middling and crap ones.”
Well we might all draw the lines slightly differently, but actually I think most people instinctively do make these kinds of judgements about a culture, and cultural contributions. And it’s our right to have opinions, and to share them. Personally, it seems self evident to me that the culture that gave us the first attempts fleshing out and protecting the natural rights of man, is superior to one that was disemboweling people and throwing babies into fires to please the sun gods.
Whilst all human beings have equal worth, it does not then follow that all cultures are equal, or that all ideas are equal. They clearly aren’t.
I’m sorry you’ve taken offense at my views Jake.
I happen to know a fair bit about the matter because I’m an avid reader and researcher, and we have a ‘transported’ English convict in our family line (end up in Tasmania).
“I’m envious of your ability to distinguish great cultures from middling and crap ones.”
Well we might all draw the lines slightly differently, but actually I think most people instinctively do make these kinds of judgements about a culture, and cultural contributions. And it’s our right to have opinions, and to share them. Personally, it seems self evident to me that the culture that gave us the first attempts fleshing out and protecting the natural rights of man, is superior to one that was disemboweling people and throwing babies into fires to please the sun gods.
Whilst all human beings have equal worth, it does not then follow that all cultures are equal, or that all ideas are equal. They clearly aren’t.
Appropos of nothing the Tiwi islands off the coast of Darwin have the largest per capita of indigenous transgender people in Australia. I found that interesting because they haven’t been influenced by social media or social trends.
Darwin would have written “evolutionary dead end” in his notebook upon observing the First Nations of Australia …
Where do you get that information about child rape, incests and human sacrifice in Aboriginal Australian communities? I’m aware of current problems with child abuse in those communities, but that’s not evidence of what happened before we arrived 250 years ago when their living arrangements and societies were of course very different. That they built nothing is hardly a criticism. I’m envious of your ability to distinguish great cultures from middling and crap ones.
Adam and Eve started in the garden of Eden. We are supposed to populate the earth but not through conquest. There was more than enough room for both races.
Respectfully, the Australian aborigines claiming that the Brits destroyed their rich culture is a bit… erm…
You’re very much right that the entire of history is essentially groups moving around, and plundering, or displacing others (often by force). Having said that, at the time of British arrival aboriginal Australians were essentially running around killing each other in the bush. Incest and child rape were commonplace, as was human sacrifice. Despite the quite abundant natural conditions, starvation was common. Pillaging and murder of other tribes was commonplace; easier than hunting and picking for yourself.
That is perhaps a result of isolation for so long (no exposure to new ideas, to prompt change), I’m not an expert on these matters so I won’t speculate too deeply. And I really don’t wish to be churlish, but it’s rather fatuous for their current “elders” to be attempting to revise history with the notion that they were akin to the ancient Greeks, until these barbarians arrived from Europe and destroyed everything they had built. That’s just objectively nonsense on stilts. There was nothing to destroy, they hadn’t bothered to build anything.
I feel like, given the day and age we are now in, that I must now explicitly add the disclaimer of the bleeding obvious: none of the above is a defence of barbaric treatment of native cultures by invading ones. [Eye roll at having to state the obvious, but this is 2023]. Anyhow, I think the point stands otherwise, and is robust enough to stand up to scrutiny. There have been many great cultures burned to ash by invaders, and some middling or crap ones burned to ash by invaders. Nowadays I think it is taboo to accept this fact — any lost culture or practice must be treated as hallowed and saturated in ‘ancient wisdom’, even if was one centred around cannibalism, or incest, with absolutely no cultural artefacts of value. It’s a bit weird.
Adam and Eve started in the garden of Eden. We are supposed to populate the earth but not through conquest. There was more than enough room for both races.
Turks! Invaders and occupiers of Europe.
I’m really not sure what grievances and double standards you have in mind. I explicitly said that I’m not making any moral judgement on the process. I think you are making assumptions on what I think, not what I actually wrote. I was simply looking at the past examples of mass immigration and effect it had on incumbent population and culture. It was clearly catastrophic, in my opinion. E.g. ‘native’ Americans went from 100% of population to less then 1%, and of course they lost 99% of resources (mainly land) in the process. If the term native is correct, or not they were established populations over many centuries. Of course, everyone has moved from somewhere at some point in the past. That is the whole thing, we think we can freeze these migrations at the point when we are happy with the setup, and this is not the case, it will keep happening and defining factor will be population size and perceived benefits of certain move, as it has always been.
Turks! Invaders and occupiers of Europe.
You bring up a very interesting point and perspective. Perhaps it all depends on which group of “immigrants” we are talking about. Regardless, if one prefers the third world culture, lifestyle, squalor and authoritarian rule of the home country, why leave it in the first place? And why chose to settle in a country that has the complete opposite values and culture?
Well from what I saw people move with very different motivations and attitude. Some will become big asset for society and net contributors, while others will just look to exploit what they can and sabotage what they can’t. Most people don’t consider their culture and lifestyle to be inferior to any other, while many will be assimilated to some point, many will remain insulated. I think speed and scale of immigration is the key factor there. For many it’s purely economical, they are happy to take the benefits, but don’t see need to adopt to the existing values, just as mentioned immigrants to Australia, North America etc., had no interest in adopting local values and culture.
Some do and some don’t, as you started out saying, therefore it’s really hard to generalize, isn’t it. As a Brit In the US some old fart said to me “why don’t you just go home”.
Yes, perhaps I wasn’t clear. I meant, as a follow up on original comment above, that initial immigrants to US and Australia had little interest and respect for the existing (native) culture and society there, they were labelled savages, threat and nuisance and were dealt with accordingly. There were exceptions of course, but they were small minority. Of course, modern migration has some control in pace and conditions, and I think can offer many benefits for receiving country if they know who they are taking, or get lucky. But overall the pace is pretty high, and control limited, this will inevitably change western societies. Not saying this is good or bad, just that there are parallels in history for situational like this.
Of all the developed nations Australia has the most stringent immigration policy with the point system. As a result it’s maintained a high quality of life, making it a desirable place to live.Surprisingly, however,not everyone knows that. Many people seem to think America is still the best country on earth which, of course, it isn’t anymore. I wasn’t allowed to join my family who emigrated to Australia because they keep out the riff raff!
What I know of Australia leads me to believe you’re right, although as an American I could quibble. I watch quite a bit of Aussie TV, and it tends to be a little sophomoric. Not a lot, though, so I keep watching. I still love my country but I see it going down the drain, especially with our present senile and criminal president.
What I know of Australia leads me to believe you’re right, although as an American I could quibble. I watch quite a bit of Aussie TV, and it tends to be a little sophomoric. Not a lot, though, so I keep watching. I still love my country but I see it going down the drain, especially with our present senile and criminal president.
Of all the developed nations Australia has the most stringent immigration policy with the point system. As a result it’s maintained a high quality of life, making it a desirable place to live.Surprisingly, however,not everyone knows that. Many people seem to think America is still the best country on earth which, of course, it isn’t anymore. I wasn’t allowed to join my family who emigrated to Australia because they keep out the riff raff!
Yes, perhaps I wasn’t clear. I meant, as a follow up on original comment above, that initial immigrants to US and Australia had little interest and respect for the existing (native) culture and society there, they were labelled savages, threat and nuisance and were dealt with accordingly. There were exceptions of course, but they were small minority. Of course, modern migration has some control in pace and conditions, and I think can offer many benefits for receiving country if they know who they are taking, or get lucky. But overall the pace is pretty high, and control limited, this will inevitably change western societies. Not saying this is good or bad, just that there are parallels in history for situational like this.
To be loyal one must be loyal with one’s heart and stomach, not just one’s stomach.
Some do and some don’t, as you started out saying, therefore it’s really hard to generalize, isn’t it. As a Brit In the US some old fart said to me “why don’t you just go home”.
To be loyal one must be loyal with one’s heart and stomach, not just one’s stomach.
Because of all the freebies?
Because most of then are low IQ savages hoping to receive free accommodation and benefits.
Well from what I saw people move with very different motivations and attitude. Some will become big asset for society and net contributors, while others will just look to exploit what they can and sabotage what they can’t. Most people don’t consider their culture and lifestyle to be inferior to any other, while many will be assimilated to some point, many will remain insulated. I think speed and scale of immigration is the key factor there. For many it’s purely economical, they are happy to take the benefits, but don’t see need to adopt to the existing values, just as mentioned immigrants to Australia, North America etc., had no interest in adopting local values and culture.
Because of all the freebies?
Because most of then are low IQ savages hoping to receive free accommodation and benefits.
The white population is decreasing in Britain officially as people are marrying far less and not having children and aborting those whom might have been born. 9.5 million since the 67 act. Fortunately we can be replenished by the children of the immigrants.
The irony is not lost on me at all. In fact, this has strengthened my belief that mass migration is not a healthy concept. Anglo Australia was completely ignored and lied to. We have become the whipping boy of Australian society. Everything good we have built has been hijacked by other groups and claimed as their own. Everything negative is all our fault and then some.
The arrival of the Brits to Australia was devastating for the Aboriginals. However, there are some who are doing very well for themselves, and all their successes fall into the category of things the white fellas brought with them.
Our focus is sharply on the white sins of the past. At this point in time there are plenty of those same sins happening which is being ignored. We cannot do anything about things that occured centuries ago but we can do something about things that are happening now.
The so-called natives of australia and New Zealand (and the US) weren’t so native at all. The same with the Turks, so how far do you want to go back with your grievances? Why the double standards where the west (i.e. white people) is involved?
You bring up a very interesting point and perspective. Perhaps it all depends on which group of “immigrants” we are talking about. Regardless, if one prefers the third world culture, lifestyle, squalor and authoritarian rule of the home country, why leave it in the first place? And why chose to settle in a country that has the complete opposite values and culture?
The white population is decreasing in Britain officially as people are marrying far less and not having children and aborting those whom might have been born. 9.5 million since the 67 act. Fortunately we can be replenished by the children of the immigrants.
The irony is not lost on me at all. In fact, this has strengthened my belief that mass migration is not a healthy concept. Anglo Australia was completely ignored and lied to. We have become the whipping boy of Australian society. Everything good we have built has been hijacked by other groups and claimed as their own. Everything negative is all our fault and then some.
The arrival of the Brits to Australia was devastating for the Aboriginals. However, there are some who are doing very well for themselves, and all their successes fall into the category of things the white fellas brought with them.
Our focus is sharply on the white sins of the past. At this point in time there are plenty of those same sins happening which is being ignored. We cannot do anything about things that occured centuries ago but we can do something about things that are happening now.
Twisting history doesn’t help any nation.
“Been here 40,000 years mate. Invented a stick”
It is up to 65,000 years now
Still only a stick.
Still only a stick.
It is up to 65,000 years now
There is no balance. The demonisation of the Europeans and idolisation of the Aboriginals (the noble savage). No, maybe that is a kind of balance but not the fruitful, beneficial kind. The attitudes reveal more about the bearer of the attitudes than the object.
Did not many British convicts suffer and die whilst working (hard Labour) on the establishment and construction of modern Australia? Assuming they didn’t die whilst being transported.
That is a perfect example of what happens with uncontrolled immigration, from the Aboriginal perspective of course. You see you are descended from immigrants that ignored rules and culture of the natives and eventually all but eliminated it and restricted it to few isolated spots, similar scenario unfolded in North America of course. Not sure this is some sort of poetic justice, but perhaps just a way human societies work. We cannot be bothered to have children any more as it doesn’t fit with our hedonistic priorities (I’m not an exception there), so those cultures that are increasing in numbers will take more prominent place. Not making any moral judgment either way, just trying to understand the drivers of the process.
Twisting history doesn’t help any nation.
“Been here 40,000 years mate. Invented a stick”
As Colonel “bonking” Bob Stewart, DSO, MP, late of HM 22nd Foot (The Cheshire Regiment) will find out to his cost next Wednesday the 5th July.
What did he actually say?
“Go back to Bahrain”.
Blasphemy indeed. Was the recipient of the comment actually from Bahrain? Bahrain is a an oil rich country with wealthy citizens, maybe one that should not be offended in these days of shortages. If someone said to someone from the United States – go back to America – would that be grounds for a prosecution? My brother and his friends burnt down a haystack (they thought it was a good place to hide whilst smoking) when they were thirteen or fourteen. Unfortunately, the haystack was in a barn which also burnt down. It was considered a particularly egregious crime because it happened in farming country during a hay shortage.
Yes, I gather he is a Bahraini dissident who has sought and been granted asylum here!
Your brother was fortunate. Formerly he would have been off to Botany Bay with Magwitch & Co!
And what did the Bahraini dissident do/say to raise the ire of colonel? Also what did the Bahraini dissident do/say to raise the ire of the Bahraini authorities? I suspect I am a dissident in this country.
I think the Bahraini was ‘demonstrating’ outside the London Bahraini Embassy about the iniquities of his homeland, where the authorities obviously regarded him as a bit of a menace.
The good Colonel who had been attending some ‘function’ in the Embassy seems to have advised the dissident that London was NOT the appropriate place for such antics, and that he should immediately return home to make his protest there.
This seems to have enraged the dissident who predictably ‘complained’ to the Police who were then ordered by the CPS* to proceed with the prosecution** of the said Colonel as the matter “was in the public interest”.
(*Crown Prosecution Service, and ordered by one Claire Marie Walsh, or so it is reported.)
(** Section V of the 1986 Public Order Act.)
Protesters are a protected species these days and sadly, not because they are in danger of becoming extinct. The universities are producing a never ending supply of social justice warriors who are totally convinced their disruption of working people lives through imposing their skewed beliefs on non believers through DEI, or glueing themselves to motorways, is for the greater good of humanity.
There is no way he would be allowed to protest in Bahrain. They still have public beheadings and floggings as far as I know.
Protesters are a protected species these days and sadly, not because they are in danger of becoming extinct. The universities are producing a never ending supply of social justice warriors who are totally convinced their disruption of working people lives through imposing their skewed beliefs on non believers through DEI, or glueing themselves to motorways, is for the greater good of humanity.
There is no way he would be allowed to protest in Bahrain. They still have public beheadings and floggings as far as I know.
I think the Bahraini was ‘demonstrating’ outside the London Bahraini Embassy about the iniquities of his homeland, where the authorities obviously regarded him as a bit of a menace.
The good Colonel who had been attending some ‘function’ in the Embassy seems to have advised the dissident that London was NOT the appropriate place for such antics, and that he should immediately return home to make his protest there.
This seems to have enraged the dissident who predictably ‘complained’ to the Police who were then ordered by the CPS* to proceed with the prosecution** of the said Colonel as the matter “was in the public interest”.
(*Crown Prosecution Service, and ordered by one Claire Marie Walsh, or so it is reported.)
(** Section V of the 1986 Public Order Act.)
And what did the Bahraini dissident do/say to raise the ire of colonel? Also what did the Bahraini dissident do/say to raise the ire of the Bahraini authorities? I suspect I am a dissident in this country.
Why cant people have the guts and backbone to be honest and say it like it is? The immigrants to France come from countries that are economic, commercial and financial disasters themselves.. And why? Because thos peoples themselves are ditto. Why do people have to keep ” pretending” in print or when speaking that some nations and cultures simply produce those who are better at things than others, not least when there are glaring statistical fact, yes, empirical fact, staring them in the face?.. I am an Irish Italian heritage second generation immigrant born here… do I and my ilk have the skills and abilities of many Jewish and Indian hindu peoples? NO we dont.. I dont! There…. I’ve said it.
The Islamic factor just adds to the problem….
Yes, if you look at global IQ map, it is pretty obvious while some countries and communities are successful and others are not.
Yes, if you look at global IQ map, it is pretty obvious while some countries and communities are successful and others are not.
Yes, I gather he is a Bahraini dissident who has sought and been granted asylum here!
Your brother was fortunate. Formerly he would have been off to Botany Bay with Magwitch & Co!
Why cant people have the guts and backbone to be honest and say it like it is? The immigrants to France come from countries that are economic, commercial and financial disasters themselves.. And why? Because thos peoples themselves are ditto. Why do people have to keep ” pretending” in print or when speaking that some nations and cultures simply produce those who are better at things than others, not least when there are glaring statistical fact, yes, empirical fact, staring them in the face?.. I am an Irish Italian heritage second generation immigrant born here… do I and my ilk have the skills and abilities of many Jewish and Indian hindu peoples? NO we dont.. I dont! There…. I’ve said it.
The Islamic factor just adds to the problem….
Blasphemy indeed. Was the recipient of the comment actually from Bahrain? Bahrain is a an oil rich country with wealthy citizens, maybe one that should not be offended in these days of shortages. If someone said to someone from the United States – go back to America – would that be grounds for a prosecution? My brother and his friends burnt down a haystack (they thought it was a good place to hide whilst smoking) when they were thirteen or fourteen. Unfortunately, the haystack was in a barn which also burnt down. It was considered a particularly egregious crime because it happened in farming country during a hay shortage.
“Go back to Bahrain”.
The best thing about The Cheshires was their officers nice coloured wooly pully… end of!
What did he actually say?
The best thing about The Cheshires was their officers nice coloured wooly pully… end of!
Well that’s an interesting concept – “an indigenous Brit”. I like that.
Try living in Australia where the indigenous population invented everything and it was a paradise until the white fellas showed up. Now we constantly have to acknowledge the elders past, present, and emerging. Have welcomes to country at every event. The Aboriginal flag and the Torres Strait Islander flag flies at every school.
Our kids are taught that Europeans poisoned the Aborigines and raped the women. And this at a primary school level (Elementary school for the Americans).
It is getting a bit much
As Colonel “bonking” Bob Stewart, DSO, MP, late of HM 22nd Foot (The Cheshire Regiment) will find out to his cost next Wednesday the 5th July.
Well that’s an interesting concept – “an indigenous Brit”. I like that.
Yes and to suggest there is such a thing as an indigenous Brit is a form of blasphemy (hate speech) punishable by excommunication (cancellation or even prosecution).
At risk of being pilloried as rascist, I’ve often wondered if forced integration here in the United States was an error. In an attempt to remedy “separate but equal” — which was admittedly the former, but not the latter — the policy fractured families and communities where black people found safety and cohesion. (As a lesbian who came out in the ’80s, I well understand the solace of being solely with my own kind. The success girls and women find in single-sex schools — also vanishing — speaks to the same.) Now we expect laws and policies to stand in for functioning individuals, families and communities — schools are now expected to feed pupils, as well as attend their mental health — a continuing dislocation of responsibility that perpetuates a victim mentality among poorer blacks and leaves white middle class taxpayers feeling burdened and resentful. However well intentioned, forced integration of blacks and whites here has been no more successful than multiculturalism there.
The U.S. gas gone from forced segregation to voluntary segregation in a little over 3 generations judging by the toxic antiwhitism masquerading as DEI.
We moved our daughter to a girls only school and it has worked brilliantly.
Forced integration only breeds resentment. You are 100% correct Cate.
I thought I was the only one that had noticed that.
The U.S. gas gone from forced segregation to voluntary segregation in a little over 3 generations judging by the toxic antiwhitism masquerading as DEI.
We moved our daughter to a girls only school and it has worked brilliantly.
Forced integration only breeds resentment. You are 100% correct Cate.
I thought I was the only one that had noticed that.
Marine Le Pen and National Rally are not ‘Far’ Right.
They echo the people’s views on most things;
Writers such as this one are just repeating what they have been told to say by the political ‘elite’ and the far left. They are trying to make it sound like a dirty word, just as they do with the term “populist”.
Far Right and Populist = two groups with whom most people agree.
Yes I have that complaint also. It’s never just ‘the right’.
Yes I have that complaint also. It’s never just ‘the right’.
A record ‘innings’, my congratulations Sir!
Multi-culturalism works just fine here in Brooklyn, NY. So please don’t tell me what a disaster it is. The flaw is in those who can’t deal with a bit of variety, a bit of uncertainty. In NYC we pride ourselves on a certain insouciance, an unflappable facade, a sense of humor. Like an adult male of the species. (And the women are pretty good at it, too.)
Try it some time.
Isn’t NYC the place where employers and landlords can be fined for “misgendering,” if they happen to believe that people can’t change sexes? It’s hard for me to see insousciance, or acceptance of variety, or a sense of humor in compelled speech. But maybe that applies only to race/culture.
Uh how many people got shoved in front of trains in the past 2 years? Is that the kind of uncertainty we are being insulted for not embracing? LOL
Brooklyn looks nothing like the ethnic and income makeup of the cites in France. Apples and oranges. But, it may point to an argument that multiculturalism, in fact, is not the problem.
Importing mass numbers of a single type of culture (or several sub types of one shared culture) that is fundamentally opposed to the beliefs your country is founded upon and which arrives without education of any kind and is also impoverished…that is a problem.
So perhaps it is not multiculturalism killing France or other countries today. More like a vast importation of a general monoculture (perhaps Islam or perhaps just conservative patriarchal beliefs) opposed to the tenets of the dominant culture it is joining, and is without the education or understanding to succeed in the new environment and without any means to immediately improve their circumstance.
This is causing fierce problems. And an inability for these immigrants to “fit in” and prosper in their new country. Which makes them angry.
This is not the same thing as the century old problem of the racist laws we had in the US. Though parallels can exist.
It is also not the same as the much smaller numbers of each ethnicity represented in Brooklyn today (and Brooklyn is also not a monolith of immigrants in poverty as the cites are).
Brooklyn would not be a beacon of multicultural peace and culture if a quarter of its residents were newly arrived impoverished North African immigrants and a quarter were newly arrived impoverished Middle Eastern war refugees.
When you have smaller numbers of many different cultures joining a larger dominant culture, some assimilation has to occur. And peace is more likely.
Are all the shootings multi-cultural?
Isn’t NYC the place where employers and landlords can be fined for “misgendering,” if they happen to believe that people can’t change sexes? It’s hard for me to see insousciance, or acceptance of variety, or a sense of humor in compelled speech. But maybe that applies only to race/culture.
Uh how many people got shoved in front of trains in the past 2 years? Is that the kind of uncertainty we are being insulted for not embracing? LOL
Brooklyn looks nothing like the ethnic and income makeup of the cites in France. Apples and oranges. But, it may point to an argument that multiculturalism, in fact, is not the problem.
Importing mass numbers of a single type of culture (or several sub types of one shared culture) that is fundamentally opposed to the beliefs your country is founded upon and which arrives without education of any kind and is also impoverished…that is a problem.
So perhaps it is not multiculturalism killing France or other countries today. More like a vast importation of a general monoculture (perhaps Islam or perhaps just conservative patriarchal beliefs) opposed to the tenets of the dominant culture it is joining, and is without the education or understanding to succeed in the new environment and without any means to immediately improve their circumstance.
This is causing fierce problems. And an inability for these immigrants to “fit in” and prosper in their new country. Which makes them angry.
This is not the same thing as the century old problem of the racist laws we had in the US. Though parallels can exist.
It is also not the same as the much smaller numbers of each ethnicity represented in Brooklyn today (and Brooklyn is also not a monolith of immigrants in poverty as the cites are).
Brooklyn would not be a beacon of multicultural peace and culture if a quarter of its residents were newly arrived impoverished North African immigrants and a quarter were newly arrived impoverished Middle Eastern war refugees.
When you have smaller numbers of many different cultures joining a larger dominant culture, some assimilation has to occur. And peace is more likely.
Are all the shootings multi-cultural?
Do electric cars burn?
Today someone wrote on Twitter:
as in pretending that groups of people can not be held responsible for any of the violence, poor health, illiteracy, children born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, babies getting STD while still in their nappies etc. in their communities. Physical violence is normalised in Australia as I had to find out in 2018, evidently to keep Aboriginals and the Sudanese out of jail. Children born into these communities have no chance of growing via trials and tribulations like everyone else, thus perpetuating disadvantage endlessly.
Whatever the merits of your more general point, to subscribe to the idea that we’re “living in the most miserable period in history” wrecks any chance of it being taken seriously. As if you’d know how miserable or otherwise general populations were in previous eras? Concepts around mental health are a fairly recent addition to mainstream discourse, giving an entirely ahistorical perspective on the daily grind of previous generations.
Defining a unity by difference makes no logical sense – a multicultural society. A unity requires a definition that unites: identifies common characteristics.
I’ve come to the same conclusion. Until fairly recently, I was still defending multiculturalism. The last 8 years have led me to the conclusion that this has been Western Europe’s biggest mistake. Taking in vast numbers of people from other countries will only work long term if they are close enough to the home culture that living side by side doesn’t create parallel societies. See: the refugees from the former Yugoslavia who came to Austria in massive numbers in the 90s. Close historical and cultural ties meant that they have slotted right into life here. Just a generation later, they are holding leading positions in economic and political life (e.g. Alma Zadic, the Minister for Justice).
I just don’t see the same thing happening for the people who have come in in the past 8 years. A study was done recently about the attitudes of different groups of immigrants in Austria. It found that 50% (yes, you read that right) of new immigrants from Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria thought that Austrian women are “too free”. How are we supposed to deal with that? This is too far away from our own culture to accept and hardcore assimilation measures will just provoke a backlash.
At the end of the day, it’s our culture, our equality, our rights – we shouldn’t have to budge an inch to be accomodating or be called racists for that refusal. But it’s a forlorn hope to think that all of those entrants will simply say en masse “oh yes, you are right!”, abandon their original belief systems and slot right in. Social tension will be the result, 10-15 years down the line. I think many people in Germany and Austria are looking at the unrest in France and know that we are looking at our own future.
Ironically, one of the main drivers behind my change of heart about multiculturalism was my own experience of integrating in a foreign country and living side by side with Vienna’s immigrant groups (10th district).
When you’ve been through integration yourself, you a) get VERY tough indeed in your attitudes to people who don’t bother to engage with their adoptive home and its culture, and b) realise that any talk of the state somehow being able to influence integration is utter rubbish. Integration is a personal decision, the state cannot control it. If members of a certain group are consistently failing to integrate and causing trouble, you have to stop them coming in. It is that simple.
My goodness, 25-year-old me would not believe that 41 year-old-me would write such things. And yet here we are.
In the UK, “multiculturalism” means you are only allowed to criticise the British way of life: everything non-British is above reproach. France has tried to follow a different path, by trying to pretend that everyone in France must buy-in to French values. But it has become impossible to ignore the Islamic counter-culture that has been allowed to flourish in France. So centrist politicians, like Macron, have attempted appeasement, but ended up with the worst of both worlds.
At risk of being pilloried as rascist, I’ve often wondered if forced integration here in the United States was an error. In an attempt to remedy “separate but equal” — which was admittedly the former, but not the latter — the policy fractured families and communities where black people found safety and cohesion. (As a lesbian who came out in the ’80s, I well understand the solace of being solely with my own kind. The success girls and women find in single-sex schools — also vanishing — speaks to the same.) Now we expect laws and policies to stand in for functioning individuals, families and communities — schools are now expected to feed pupils, as well as attend their mental health — a continuing dislocation of responsibility that perpetuates a victim mentality among poorer blacks and leaves white middle class taxpayers feeling burdened and resentful. However well intentioned, forced integration of blacks and whites here has been no more successful than multiculturalism there.
Marine Le Pen and National Rally are not ‘Far’ Right.
They echo the people’s views on most things;
Writers such as this one are just repeating what they have been told to say by the political ‘elite’ and the far left. They are trying to make it sound like a dirty word, just as they do with the term “populist”.
Far Right and Populist = two groups with whom most people agree.
A record ‘innings’, my congratulations Sir!
Multi-culturalism works just fine here in Brooklyn, NY. So please don’t tell me what a disaster it is. The flaw is in those who can’t deal with a bit of variety, a bit of uncertainty. In NYC we pride ourselves on a certain insouciance, an unflappable facade, a sense of humor. Like an adult male of the species. (And the women are pretty good at it, too.)
Try it some time.
Do electric cars burn?
Today someone wrote on Twitter:
as in pretending that groups of people can not be held responsible for any of the violence, poor health, illiteracy, children born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, babies getting STD while still in their nappies etc. in their communities. Physical violence is normalised in Australia as I had to find out in 2018, evidently to keep Aboriginals and the Sudanese out of jail. Children born into these communities have no chance of growing via trials and tribulations like everyone else, thus perpetuating disadvantage endlessly.
For too long the West has been taking in far too many people. Because we did not roll out the red carpet and prostrate ourselves, we have been bullied as racists. If life was really so terrible, then why are they still there?
Multiculturalism just does not work. It creates a society even more divided than the homogeneous ones. We are living in the most miserable era in history even though we are at the most prosperous. “The community” is dead, and it has been replaced by tribes. The aristocracy has been replaced by the technocrats and political elite. The indifference is still there, so it should come as no surprise if Marine LePen wins the next election.
To be allowed to live in another country is a gift, yet it is all too often taken for granted.
“What the street barricade was to France in the 19th century, the burning car has become in the 21st”. Rubbish. Barricades were put up by a section of French people to oppose the state. The cars are burnt by thirld-world malcontents, flexing their muscles in order to intimidate whimps like Macron.
A few hundred soldiers with machine guns could stop most of this, and save money on social security bills into the future.
A few hundred soldiers with machine guns could stop most of this, and save money on social security bills into the future.
“What the street barricade was to France in the 19th century, the burning car has become in the 21st”. Rubbish. Barricades were put up by a section of French people to oppose the state. The cars are burnt by thirld-world malcontents, flexing their muscles in order to intimidate whimps like Macron.
C news is not the equivalent of Fox news. It is of a much higher intellectual quality , hosting discussions between philosophers, historians, journalists often of opposing views. It is also a very boring cliche to present the parties who oppose France’s descent into the abyss as far right. Entirely predictable though. The author got one thing right – the rioters are destroying the amenities of their own communities, which will be rebuilt at everyone’s cost . Like the idiots at the bbc , who present the rioters as blameless recipients of inexplicable violence and prejudice , this is the type of one sided reporting which I’m really surprised to see on this website. But Princeton is very far away from a roadblock manned by a kalashnikov wielding drug lord on a Marseille estate .
Yes, I am often perplexed why the term “far-right” is proscribed to anyone who questions the sanity of planned cultural suicide.
Presumably because the Far Left endgame *is* total destruction of the culture (and I say endgame because they have literally no plan for what happens after that) – their assumption then is that anyone who wants to save or protect culture and society must be their polar opposite.
Open society is its own enemy
Open society is its own enemy
“Far-right” has become a meaningless pejorative in the mouths of those who fancy themselves centrists or centre-left, rather the way “fascist” is used by people who were quite happy with the union of state and corporate power (Mussolini’s own definition of fascism) represented by tech companies censoring voices opposing policies set by the American Democrats at the behest of Federal agencies.
Presumably because the Far Left endgame *is* total destruction of the culture (and I say endgame because they have literally no plan for what happens after that) – their assumption then is that anyone who wants to save or protect culture and society must be their polar opposite.
“Far-right” has become a meaningless pejorative in the mouths of those who fancy themselves centrists or centre-left, rather the way “fascist” is used by people who were quite happy with the union of state and corporate power (Mussolini’s own definition of fascism) represented by tech companies censoring voices opposing policies set by the American Democrats at the behest of Federal agencies.
Yes, I am often perplexed why the term “far-right” is proscribed to anyone who questions the sanity of planned cultural suicide.
C news is not the equivalent of Fox news. It is of a much higher intellectual quality , hosting discussions between philosophers, historians, journalists often of opposing views. It is also a very boring cliche to present the parties who oppose France’s descent into the abyss as far right. Entirely predictable though. The author got one thing right – the rioters are destroying the amenities of their own communities, which will be rebuilt at everyone’s cost . Like the idiots at the bbc , who present the rioters as blameless recipients of inexplicable violence and prejudice , this is the type of one sided reporting which I’m really surprised to see on this website. But Princeton is very far away from a roadblock manned by a kalashnikov wielding drug lord on a Marseille estate .
No country, no society, should take in immigrants at a rate faster than they can assimilate.
No country, no society, should simply accept immigrants whose values and culture are so radically different from their own that the immigrants will immediately be at odds with those of the country or society.
Simply and perfectly stated. It amounts to cultural suicide.
Well said.
That sentiment, expressed in most countries of Continental Europe, would suffice, without regard to your views on any other issues, to brand you as a member of the “far-right”.
It also happens to be spot-on.
Simply and perfectly stated. It amounts to cultural suicide.
Well said.
That sentiment, expressed in most countries of Continental Europe, would suffice, without regard to your views on any other issues, to brand you as a member of the “far-right”.
It also happens to be spot-on.
No country, no society, should take in immigrants at a rate faster than they can assimilate.
No country, no society, should simply accept immigrants whose values and culture are so radically different from their own that the immigrants will immediately be at odds with those of the country or society.
Is there anything quite so galling as the vanity of the professional intellectual? How remiss of the French Republic in its failure to heed Bell’s conclusion.
Has integration ever been an unqualified success (or any kind of success at all)? With the growing power of identity politics, integration can easily be portrayed as an attempt by ‘broader society’ to dilute (or even humiliate) an unwelcome cultural identity.
Broader Society meanwhile may resent moral pressure to accept and appease aggressive and demanding ethnic communities whose presence they have never been consulted on.
He has zero insight into what has happened in France seeing everything in American civil rights terms with an admixture of anxiety derived from his own Jewish immigrant background . Shocking considering he is supposed to be a top historian .
He has zero insight into what has happened in France seeing everything in American civil rights terms with an admixture of anxiety derived from his own Jewish immigrant background . Shocking considering he is supposed to be a top historian .
Is there anything quite so galling as the vanity of the professional intellectual? How remiss of the French Republic in its failure to heed Bell’s conclusion.
Has integration ever been an unqualified success (or any kind of success at all)? With the growing power of identity politics, integration can easily be portrayed as an attempt by ‘broader society’ to dilute (or even humiliate) an unwelcome cultural identity.
Broader Society meanwhile may resent moral pressure to accept and appease aggressive and demanding ethnic communities whose presence they have never been consulted on.
The author seems to have no idea of the scale of the riots and the kind of damage that was done. The rioters didnt just burn cars ( understandable anger) and loot ( well they are very poor) they burned down whole public libraries, streets of houses, tried to kill firemen and assassinate at least one mayor and his family. Ironically, these immigrant descended communities, as we call groups of people who spend their time robbing and beating the heck out of each other, mostly fled to France after Algerian independence. At least two million turned up, saying whoops, if only we were still a French departement. I cant imagine what more the French state could have done other than ensure that the new arrivals had housing, education, medicine, mosques, and anti discrimination laws. The Algerian Jews disappeared into France; the rest remained unintegrated. I dont know the answer, but comparisons with rebellions that spring from the European political traditions and movements (1838, 1848, 1871) are irrelevant. There is nothing that can appease the hatred of these rioters.
The author seems to have no idea of the scale of the riots and the kind of damage that was done. The rioters didnt just burn cars ( understandable anger) and loot ( well they are very poor) they burned down whole public libraries, streets of houses, tried to kill firemen and assassinate at least one mayor and his family. Ironically, these immigrant descended communities, as we call groups of people who spend their time robbing and beating the heck out of each other, mostly fled to France after Algerian independence. At least two million turned up, saying whoops, if only we were still a French departement. I cant imagine what more the French state could have done other than ensure that the new arrivals had housing, education, medicine, mosques, and anti discrimination laws. The Algerian Jews disappeared into France; the rest remained unintegrated. I dont know the answer, but comparisons with rebellions that spring from the European political traditions and movements (1838, 1848, 1871) are irrelevant. There is nothing that can appease the hatred of these rioters.
Writing after the 2005 riots, I concluded that “the French Republic… desperately needs to find some way to offer the youths of the suburbs a meaningful form of integration into broader society.” Needless to say, this has not happened.
Because large numbers of unvetted people from some cultures can’t be successfully integrated into a functioning Western society.
It seems you view the subject of mass immigration from very different cultures with decidedly rose-tinted glasses, Mr Bell.
Writing after the 2005 riots, I concluded that “the French Republic… desperately needs to find some way to offer the youths of the suburbs a meaningful form of integration into broader society.” Needless to say, this has not happened.
Because large numbers of unvetted people from some cultures can’t be successfully integrated into a functioning Western society.
It seems you view the subject of mass immigration from very different cultures with decidedly rose-tinted glasses, Mr Bell.
And before les cités, France had les banlieus where they kept the white working class at arm’s length from the best people living creative and thoughtful lives inside la peripherique.
So your point is what?
The fact is that you lefty educated class chaps are clueless. Dear old Cromwell had a point when he said: “Ye venal slaves be gone!”
And before les cités, France had les banlieus where they kept the white working class at arm’s length from the best people living creative and thoughtful lives inside la peripherique.
So your point is what?
The fact is that you lefty educated class chaps are clueless. Dear old Cromwell had a point when he said: “Ye venal slaves be gone!”
Much like the race riots in the US, these riots in France are almost always sparked by criminals in a minority group breaking the law and resisting arrest when caught. That fact renders me so much less sympathetic to claims of police misconduct.
Much like the race riots in the US, these riots in France are almost always sparked by criminals in a minority group breaking the law and resisting arrest when caught. That fact renders me so much less sympathetic to claims of police misconduct.
‘This is not the fault of the rioters, who have desperately few options for constructive action.’ Let’s see. There’s personal and parental responsibility. There’s taking educational opportunities seriously. There’s looking at the damage your religious and cultural attitudes did to your home countries, and not bringing them with you. There’s putting the longer term interests of your family, community, and country ahead of your instant gratification with money, drugs, sex, and violence. There’s wanting to be part of the country you or your parents chose to come to, rather than destroy it. They constructive enough for you, professor?
But destroying things should be celebrated, as this is also part of their culture, which should be revered vs. denigrated. Sort of like enjoying a plate of hummus with olive oil and fresh pita bread.
But destroying things should be celebrated, as this is also part of their culture, which should be revered vs. denigrated. Sort of like enjoying a plate of hummus with olive oil and fresh pita bread.
‘This is not the fault of the rioters, who have desperately few options for constructive action.’ Let’s see. There’s personal and parental responsibility. There’s taking educational opportunities seriously. There’s looking at the damage your religious and cultural attitudes did to your home countries, and not bringing them with you. There’s putting the longer term interests of your family, community, and country ahead of your instant gratification with money, drugs, sex, and violence. There’s wanting to be part of the country you or your parents chose to come to, rather than destroy it. They constructive enough for you, professor?
“She characterised them as a form of “appeasement of the cités”, as if these parts of France were indeed the redoubts of foreign enemies,”
Seems more plausible by the day.
“She characterised them as a form of “appeasement of the cités”, as if these parts of France were indeed the redoubts of foreign enemies,”
Seems more plausible by the day.
Professor Bell seems trapped in a conceptual doom-loop of his own making. He airily dismisses the current problem as if this is 2005 (spoiler – it isn’t 2005) and of course fails to mention the cultural and religious issues at play. What astonishes is me is how resilient France has been, despite endless provocations in the form of terrorism, it remains relatively calm.
I suspect that’s about to end. I’m sure Professor Bell has some well-meaning platitudes from his early 2000s playbook with which to explain this away, from his dreaming spire on the ‘Left Bank’ of Princeton University.
As others have said elsewhere in the comments, Messrs Mortimer and Keiger over at the Speccie are offering less myopic commentary from the scene. It’s scary and compelling stuff.
His comments also show the wonderful Montesquovian , geographic aspect of the analysis, , talking about the banlieus, being kept outside the inner cities, poor things. Now in England, the livelier aspects of our diverse cultures were attributed to the inner cities, poor, lead in petrol, no parks (!) etc. They were kept out of the lovely suburbs and had no alternative but to mug, rob and assault, because after all, what else could you do in a city centre.
His comments also show the wonderful Montesquovian , geographic aspect of the analysis, , talking about the banlieus, being kept outside the inner cities, poor things. Now in England, the livelier aspects of our diverse cultures were attributed to the inner cities, poor, lead in petrol, no parks (!) etc. They were kept out of the lovely suburbs and had no alternative but to mug, rob and assault, because after all, what else could you do in a city centre.
Professor Bell seems trapped in a conceptual doom-loop of his own making. He airily dismisses the current problem as if this is 2005 (spoiler – it isn’t 2005) and of course fails to mention the cultural and religious issues at play. What astonishes is me is how resilient France has been, despite endless provocations in the form of terrorism, it remains relatively calm.
I suspect that’s about to end. I’m sure Professor Bell has some well-meaning platitudes from his early 2000s playbook with which to explain this away, from his dreaming spire on the ‘Left Bank’ of Princeton University.
As others have said elsewhere in the comments, Messrs Mortimer and Keiger over at the Speccie are offering less myopic commentary from the scene. It’s scary and compelling stuff.
Mr Bell’s linked piece was from the New Republic. Well, of course! The above is an almost perfect example of soft-left idiocy.
Mr Bell notes the French history of Jewish persecution: “under the collaborationist Vichy regime of World War II — deportation to Nazi death camps (a fate that also befell Jewish families with French roots going back centuries). But after the war their story gradually turned into a French success story, as assimilation took its course.”
He fails to mention today’s rioters threaten a new holocaust: the Paris Holocaust Memorial was desecrated: (The Mémorial des Martyrs de la Déportation is located in Paris behind Notre Dame on Île de la Cité.)
“groups in the Paris suburb of Nanterre sprayed hateful slogans on a Holocaust memorial. On a video you can see that someone scrawled the words “F**k the police – dog gang – we will give you a shoah” on the memorial. Like “Holocaust,” the “Shoah” is a term for the murder of six million Jews during the Nazi era.
Under the motto of the memorial “For the martyrs of deportation” someone sprayed “police mob.” Next to it is “F**k le 17”, the title of a rap song in which the police are badly incited. In France, dial 17 to reach the Gendarmerie.
Another video posted to Twitter also shows a man attempting to light a French flag in front of the memorial.
Many observers are shocked that the rioters, many of them apparently with a Muslim background, chose a location for their vandalism that is supposed to commemorate the victims of the murder of the Jews. The European Jewish Congress tweeted: “It is truly horrific to see the memorial to the martyrs of the deportations in Nanterre vandalized. This is a shameless act that does not respect the memory of the victims of the Holocaust. He must be fully condemned and those responsible must be held accountable.”
Mr Bell seems terrified of the Far Right in France and its boosting by the riots.
If one was Jewish, and noted the above message on a Holocaust Memorial, where should one vote? (with one’s feet, perhaps…)
It used to be said that “Liberalism is a mental disorder.” How else can you describe such cultural suicide?
Masochism?
Stockholm Syndrome ?
Stockholm Syndrome ?
Masochism?
It used to be said that “Liberalism is a mental disorder.” How else can you describe such cultural suicide?
Mr Bell’s linked piece was from the New Republic. Well, of course! The above is an almost perfect example of soft-left idiocy.
Mr Bell notes the French history of Jewish persecution: “under the collaborationist Vichy regime of World War II — deportation to Nazi death camps (a fate that also befell Jewish families with French roots going back centuries). But after the war their story gradually turned into a French success story, as assimilation took its course.”
He fails to mention today’s rioters threaten a new holocaust: the Paris Holocaust Memorial was desecrated: (The Mémorial des Martyrs de la Déportation is located in Paris behind Notre Dame on Île de la Cité.)
“groups in the Paris suburb of Nanterre sprayed hateful slogans on a Holocaust memorial. On a video you can see that someone scrawled the words “F**k the police – dog gang – we will give you a shoah” on the memorial. Like “Holocaust,” the “Shoah” is a term for the murder of six million Jews during the Nazi era.
Under the motto of the memorial “For the martyrs of deportation” someone sprayed “police mob.” Next to it is “F**k le 17”, the title of a rap song in which the police are badly incited. In France, dial 17 to reach the Gendarmerie.
Another video posted to Twitter also shows a man attempting to light a French flag in front of the memorial.
Many observers are shocked that the rioters, many of them apparently with a Muslim background, chose a location for their vandalism that is supposed to commemorate the victims of the murder of the Jews. The European Jewish Congress tweeted: “It is truly horrific to see the memorial to the martyrs of the deportations in Nanterre vandalized. This is a shameless act that does not respect the memory of the victims of the Holocaust. He must be fully condemned and those responsible must be held accountable.”
Mr Bell seems terrified of the Far Right in France and its boosting by the riots.
If one was Jewish, and noted the above message on a Holocaust Memorial, where should one vote? (with one’s feet, perhaps…)
Quelle surprise!
More that fifty years ago one John Enoch Powell, MBE, Classicist, Soldier and MP predicted this outcome.
Now we shall “reap the whirlwind “.*
(* Hosea: 8:7.)
Quelle surprise!
More that fifty years ago one John Enoch Powell, MBE, Classicist, Soldier and MP predicted this outcome.
Now we shall “reap the whirlwind “.*
(* Hosea: 8:7.)
How is this being handled? Macron is demanding that internet platforms delete riot content; and he blames social media & video games for the protest spread…
Well, there you have it. More narrative control. Ignore reality and insert your own version of truth. That’s the same as they did with Covid, with Ukraine, with everything. Just spin a story contrary to reality, and put it out there, censoring those who say anything contrary. What more do we expect in the age when a man can become a woman simply by controlling the narrative and saying that it’s so.
Such is the authoritarian post truth world we live in, but how much longer can all that last? How much longer can they deny reality, when reality always wins in the end?
This whole crush-wrongthink move for Macron is not new. According to the news outlet France 24, in 2021, 25 retired French generals warned Macron an open letter that the country is headed for “civil war” because of the huge influx of migrants. So what did he do in response then? He threatened to punish active soldiers who signed the open letter.
Now the riots have also spread to Swizerland. Did you know that? Did your news media tell you about that? You can see videos on Twitter of them in Lausanne. What are you to conclude, that the far right might rise somewhere?
I won’t even bother telling you about what the police in France battling every night said… You probably wouldn’t beleive me. I’m not the right source for information.
Macron blaming video games at least gave me we some amusement..
Riots also happened in 2005. Before social media.
Have ‘we’ all forgotten the Paris Riots of the 17th October, 1961?
Between 40 and 300 Algerians are estimated to have been killed on that occasion.
Yes we have all forgotten it Charles. Does that answer your question?
Yes, thanks!
Yes, thanks!
Yes we have all forgotten it Charles. Does that answer your question?
Have ‘we’ all forgotten the Paris Riots of the 17th October, 1961?
Between 40 and 300 Algerians are estimated to have been killed on that occasion.
Macron blaming video games at least gave me we some amusement..
Riots also happened in 2005. Before social media.
How is this being handled? Macron is demanding that internet platforms delete riot content; and he blames social media & video games for the protest spread…
Well, there you have it. More narrative control. Ignore reality and insert your own version of truth. That’s the same as they did with Covid, with Ukraine, with everything. Just spin a story contrary to reality, and put it out there, censoring those who say anything contrary. What more do we expect in the age when a man can become a woman simply by controlling the narrative and saying that it’s so.
Such is the authoritarian post truth world we live in, but how much longer can all that last? How much longer can they deny reality, when reality always wins in the end?
This whole crush-wrongthink move for Macron is not new. According to the news outlet France 24, in 2021, 25 retired French generals warned Macron an open letter that the country is headed for “civil war” because of the huge influx of migrants. So what did he do in response then? He threatened to punish active soldiers who signed the open letter.
Now the riots have also spread to Swizerland. Did you know that? Did your news media tell you about that? You can see videos on Twitter of them in Lausanne. What are you to conclude, that the far right might rise somewhere?
I won’t even bother telling you about what the police in France battling every night said… You probably wouldn’t beleive me. I’m not the right source for information.
“This is not the fault of the rioters, who have desperately few options for constructive action.”
It most definitely is the fault of the rioters, and they have one certain form of constructive action: Stop burning cars and rioting.
“This is not the fault of the rioters, who have desperately few options for constructive action.”
It most definitely is the fault of the rioters, and they have one certain form of constructive action: Stop burning cars and rioting.
When will UnHerd stop calling National Rally “far-Right”? How big a majority can you be and still get labelled as extremists?
When will UnHerd stop calling National Rally “far-Right”? How big a majority can you be and still get labelled as extremists?
Why is Le Pen’s party far right but LFI is left wing, not far left?
Well for the same reason you can type Communism and Stalin etc on here but not Na*I or Hit*er.
Well for the same reason you can type Communism and Stalin etc on here but not Na*I or Hit*er.
Why is Le Pen’s party far right but LFI is left wing, not far left?
“This is not the fault of the rioters, who have desperately few options for constructive action.” Sorry, that is just totally incorrect. Their “option” would have been and still remains, to follow the same course that worked for other new arrivals: be glad you are in a place with rule of law and opportunities, buckle down, fit in and work your way up. You are relegated to a specific neighborhood? Turn it into something charming like one of the many urban Chinatowns or work, save up, and move on. The majority will accept and will even elect members of these recently arrived minorities as the facts show. But those minorities are sadly, determined to remain hostile and what one sociologist has called “indigestible” – deliberately resistant to adaptation and integration. I don’t have a solution – but I do know that it will only come to us on the basis of recognizing the cold hard facts.
“This is not the fault of the rioters, who have desperately few options for constructive action.” Sorry, that is just totally incorrect. Their “option” would have been and still remains, to follow the same course that worked for other new arrivals: be glad you are in a place with rule of law and opportunities, buckle down, fit in and work your way up. You are relegated to a specific neighborhood? Turn it into something charming like one of the many urban Chinatowns or work, save up, and move on. The majority will accept and will even elect members of these recently arrived minorities as the facts show. But those minorities are sadly, determined to remain hostile and what one sociologist has called “indigestible” – deliberately resistant to adaptation and integration. I don’t have a solution – but I do know that it will only come to us on the basis of recognizing the cold hard facts.
Islam and Christianity (or it’s replacement, wokism) are oil and water — they have never mixed and they never will mix. Islam cannot accept pluralism, one must Submit or die. DIE today, die tomorrow. The woke embrace Islam because it makes them look Tolerant and because it’s a way of undermining the Christian roots of Western culture — they will be surprised when theirs are the first throats to be cut.
All religions are devisive and problematic. Atheists don’t start wars or riots. Also it’s males of all denominations who are violent not women.
Hitler, Stalin and Mao, the three greatest mass murderers of the 20th Century were all atheists.
But carry on in your delusion, don’t let me stop you ….
I meant ordinary people not dictators.Hitler was also a vegetarian, make of that what you will. I did add that it’s males who are violent. The mass shooters in the US are always white teenage boys, and serial killers are usually white males. Make of that what you will.
I meant ordinary people not dictators.Hitler was also a vegetarian, make of that what you will. I did add that it’s males who are violent. The mass shooters in the US are always white teenage boys, and serial killers are usually white males. Make of that what you will.
Hitler, Stalin and Mao, the three greatest mass murderers of the 20th Century were all atheists.
But carry on in your delusion, don’t let me stop you ….
All religions are devisive and problematic. Atheists don’t start wars or riots. Also it’s males of all denominations who are violent not women.
Islam and Christianity (or it’s replacement, wokism) are oil and water — they have never mixed and they never will mix. Islam cannot accept pluralism, one must Submit or die. DIE today, die tomorrow. The woke embrace Islam because it makes them look Tolerant and because it’s a way of undermining the Christian roots of Western culture — they will be surprised when theirs are the first throats to be cut.
Liberals – traditional term for middle class leftists generally since WWII – cannot focus on ethnicity as having a causal role in the current riots, because it runs contrary to the Marxist canon that attributes the ills of capitalism to exploitation of the masses. And so “poverty,” and secondarily “racism” are offered as explanation for massive civil unrest. Solution? As always, more money to be taken from working people to subsidise the “impoverished” underclasses – a magnet to further mass immigration. And so the mass of the alienated and the disgruntled grows ever larger – not because they admire France and it’s culture (many openly demonstrate their hatred of it,) but because they see a weak and vulnerable culture ripe for plundering, unable to defend itself against assault.
Liberals – traditional term for middle class leftists generally since WWII – cannot focus on ethnicity as having a causal role in the current riots, because it runs contrary to the Marxist canon that attributes the ills of capitalism to exploitation of the masses. And so “poverty,” and secondarily “racism” are offered as explanation for massive civil unrest. Solution? As always, more money to be taken from working people to subsidise the “impoverished” underclasses – a magnet to further mass immigration. And so the mass of the alienated and the disgruntled grows ever larger – not because they admire France and it’s culture (many openly demonstrate their hatred of it,) but because they see a weak and vulnerable culture ripe for plundering, unable to defend itself against assault.
Which of the following was the cause of Western Europe’s self-inflicted race problems?
1. You saw all the violence and destruction in America on your TVs in the Sixties and thought, “Wow, that looks like fun! Let’s import endless waves of people of color into our happy homogeneous post-war societies so we can have that too.”
2. You saw all the violence and destruction in America on your TVs in the Sixties and thought, “Look at those benighted racists over there. Why can’t those bigots get along with those nice black people, who only want to be just like them? We Europeans have no trouble living with people of color. America is a sick society.”
I mean, you did it to yourselves, all within living memory. There must have been a reason. There never was a significant protest anywhere in Western Europe over importing endless waves of foreigners to live with you, but you certainly can’t claim you weren’t warned by what was plain to see in the news from America.
What were you thinking?
Partly it was as you say the 1960s and there was a kind of hippy counter culture going on and opposing immigration was derided as racist and uncool .Britain did have a major conservative minister named Enoch Powell who gave warnings about what would ensue , but he was sacked immediately by the Prime Minister Heath . Powell’s support came mainly from elements of the organised working class like the dockers , who marched in support , but that probably further alienated the bien pensant , making his views seem primitive and easily dismissed as ‘racist’ and low status . Powell was himself a former professor of Greek ( when in his 20s) .
Plus the Hitler thing was quite recent and made many commentators fetishise immigration because Adolph had wanted a racially pure monoculture . I guess at the time most people naively believed all migrants would want to integrate .There was also a view Powell was using exaggeration in his projections of numbers of immigrants into the future but turned out to be correct .
The civil rights movement in the States seemed kind of cool and British liberals likely imagined themselves going on their own anti – racism marches .
Partly it was as you say the 1960s and there was a kind of hippy counter culture going on and opposing immigration was derided as racist and uncool .Britain did have a major conservative minister named Enoch Powell who gave warnings about what would ensue , but he was sacked immediately by the Prime Minister Heath . Powell’s support came mainly from elements of the organised working class like the dockers , who marched in support , but that probably further alienated the bien pensant , making his views seem primitive and easily dismissed as ‘racist’ and low status . Powell was himself a former professor of Greek ( when in his 20s) .
Plus the Hitler thing was quite recent and made many commentators fetishise immigration because Adolph had wanted a racially pure monoculture . I guess at the time most people naively believed all migrants would want to integrate .There was also a view Powell was using exaggeration in his projections of numbers of immigrants into the future but turned out to be correct .
The civil rights movement in the States seemed kind of cool and British liberals likely imagined themselves going on their own anti – racism marches .
Which of the following was the cause of Western Europe’s self-inflicted race problems?
1. You saw all the violence and destruction in America on your TVs in the Sixties and thought, “Wow, that looks like fun! Let’s import endless waves of people of color into our happy homogeneous post-war societies so we can have that too.”
2. You saw all the violence and destruction in America on your TVs in the Sixties and thought, “Look at those benighted racists over there. Why can’t those bigots get along with those nice black people, who only want to be just like them? We Europeans have no trouble living with people of color. America is a sick society.”
I mean, you did it to yourselves, all within living memory. There must have been a reason. There never was a significant protest anywhere in Western Europe over importing endless waves of foreigners to live with you, but you certainly can’t claim you weren’t warned by what was plain to see in the news from America.
What were you thinking?
I can never take any commentary on ‘the far right’ seriously, if the commentator doesn’t also describe ‘the far left’ – the ideology that is now hegemonic in most western governments and institutions. Depriving political opponents of bank accounts, jailing fathers for insisting on the biological sex of their children, and pushing an agenda of financial currencies, unaccountable bureaucratic top down global regulation ….these are in many ways ‘farther’ from the median of the post-war consensus than anything Le Pen is proposing.
I can never take any commentary on ‘the far right’ seriously, if the commentator doesn’t also describe ‘the far left’ – the ideology that is now hegemonic in most western governments and institutions. Depriving political opponents of bank accounts, jailing fathers for insisting on the biological sex of their children, and pushing an agenda of financial currencies, unaccountable bureaucratic top down global regulation ….these are in many ways ‘farther’ from the median of the post-war consensus than anything Le Pen is proposing.
This writer seems to suffer from a blind spot common to many hyper-liberals: the assumption that Western societies are so wonderful that anyone would wish to join in if they were just given the opportunity. It’s pretty clearly not true – and even a little racist, dare I say it. There are a great many people in France, and here probably, who have no desire to participate in the mainstream culture of the country and, in many cases, view it with extreme hostility and contempt. Poverty and deprivation may be part of the story, but they are by no means an explanation in themselves.
Indeed. That’s true in the States too, though our immigrant populations are said to be more assimilated than in most of Europe. Fun when a shop-owner who speaks next to no English sneers at you as if you’ve invaded his space while you pay for your marked-up items. Not saying that’s the norm, but it is not uncommon.
Indeed. That’s true in the States too, though our immigrant populations are said to be more assimilated than in most of Europe. Fun when a shop-owner who speaks next to no English sneers at you as if you’ve invaded his space while you pay for your marked-up items. Not saying that’s the norm, but it is not uncommon.
This writer seems to suffer from a blind spot common to many hyper-liberals: the assumption that Western societies are so wonderful that anyone would wish to join in if they were just given the opportunity. It’s pretty clearly not true – and even a little racist, dare I say it. There are a great many people in France, and here probably, who have no desire to participate in the mainstream culture of the country and, in many cases, view it with extreme hostility and contempt. Poverty and deprivation may be part of the story, but they are by no means an explanation in themselves.
It’s called unintended consequences. David Bell points his finger at everything and everyone but the failed policies that created the problem in the first place.
He begins from the premise that the minority immigrant community has to have the victim role. That’s who he is , he can’t help himself.
He begins from the premise that the minority immigrant community has to have the victim role. That’s who he is , he can’t help himself.
It’s called unintended consequences. David Bell points his finger at everything and everyone but the failed policies that created the problem in the first place.
This is a preposterously one-sided analysis from a supposed historian. It assigns no agency responsibility to the ‘community’ in question at all: evidently, its constituents are simply passive victims of irrational racism, state neglect, and unprovoked police violence. Given France’s demonstrated capacity to absorb immigrants throughout its history, surely there must be some other factors at play here.
Here’s a question a more serious and credible academic would confront: how do you accommodate an immigrant group that shows little interest in integrating, refuses to intermarry, tenaciously clings to its own non-negotiable, frankly exclusionary customs, to the point of committing acts of violence against those who are simply following their own, different customs, regards tolerance as impiety, and reacts with hostility to attempts at negotiation and dialogue? These are challenging problems for any state, no?
As for embattled French citizens turning to the right, can a historian possibly not know that when people see their concerns are being ignored or trivialized, even demonized, they become far more susceptible to siren voices from the extreme ends of the political spectrum, left and right alike? There are plenty of historical examples, both within France and elsewhere.
This is a preposterously one-sided analysis from a supposed historian. It assigns no agency responsibility to the ‘community’ in question at all: evidently, its constituents are simply passive victims of irrational racism, state neglect, and unprovoked police violence. Given France’s demonstrated capacity to absorb immigrants throughout its history, surely there must be some other factors at play here.
Here’s a question a more serious and credible academic would confront: how do you accommodate an immigrant group that shows little interest in integrating, refuses to intermarry, tenaciously clings to its own non-negotiable, frankly exclusionary customs, to the point of committing acts of violence against those who are simply following their own, different customs, regards tolerance as impiety, and reacts with hostility to attempts at negotiation and dialogue? These are challenging problems for any state, no?
As for embattled French citizens turning to the right, can a historian possibly not know that when people see their concerns are being ignored or trivialized, even demonized, they become far more susceptible to siren voices from the extreme ends of the political spectrum, left and right alike? There are plenty of historical examples, both within France and elsewhere.
“This is not the fault of the rioters, who have desperately few options for constructive action”
Bullshit. One has the feeling that, for this writer, nothing is ever the fault of the rioters. I highly doubt whether many of the low IQ morons currently burning Paris down could articulate any clear reason for their actions beyond, “it’s summer and it is exciting!”
“It is rather the product of France’s changing political landscape in the 21st-century”
Wrong. It is a product of mass immigration.
“The rioters’ professed goals are easily summarised. They want an end to police violence against members of their community, and more broadly an end to discrimination against them”
Again, wrong. What they want is to be allowed to continue to behave like lawless hoodlums and for the police to be powerless to control them.
Yes. French society discriminates against them – but the reason is because they are primarily thick, obnoxious and unwilling to work. French society does *not* need them, and therefore does not value them. They react with behaviour that makes the French (who subsidize their existence) loath them.
They want respect; they do *nothing* to earn it.
The French police’s appraisal of them seems about right.
His perspective is an amalgam of Jewish sensibility about being a migrant, the holocaust , and US civil rights movement activism . Liberal Jewish intellectual therefore getting everything wrong about this .
His perspective is an amalgam of Jewish sensibility about being a migrant, the holocaust , and US civil rights movement activism . Liberal Jewish intellectual therefore getting everything wrong about this .
“This is not the fault of the rioters, who have desperately few options for constructive action”
Bullshit. One has the feeling that, for this writer, nothing is ever the fault of the rioters. I highly doubt whether many of the low IQ morons currently burning Paris down could articulate any clear reason for their actions beyond, “it’s summer and it is exciting!”
“It is rather the product of France’s changing political landscape in the 21st-century”
Wrong. It is a product of mass immigration.
“The rioters’ professed goals are easily summarised. They want an end to police violence against members of their community, and more broadly an end to discrimination against them”
Again, wrong. What they want is to be allowed to continue to behave like lawless hoodlums and for the police to be powerless to control them.
Yes. French society discriminates against them – but the reason is because they are primarily thick, obnoxious and unwilling to work. French society does *not* need them, and therefore does not value them. They react with behaviour that makes the French (who subsidize their existence) loath them.
They want respect; they do *nothing* to earn it.
The French police’s appraisal of them seems about right.
Here are the details of an important development mentioned in passing in this article that I quote from the equivalent Spectator article below:
I can see Macron getting tougher on this in the coming months.
It’s also worth adding the Algerian youth mentioned above are no more immigrants than the Irish in Britain. Any quick glance at the map of France from the second republic, and Algeria is part of France until 1962.
The Irish are/were Christians the Algerians are not.
Yeah, they’re mostly Catholics though who have had to face a significant amount of persecution and later prejudice in Britain.
Having said that being a Christian isn’t an immigration status, and certainly wouldn’t be in the heavily republican second or third republics in France.
you are a little disingenuous here but it’s fine
you are a little disingenuous here but it’s fine
I suggest looking at the difference between Algeria and cosmopolitan Sunni Muslims of Lebanon. What has damaged relations is the disappearance of of the Levantine Culture due to the rise of Salaafism.
Quite right. The dangerous rise in influence of the Salaafist strain of Islam has been the main instigating factor behind Jihadi terrorist outrages. A great deal of this can be traced to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the 1988 founding of Al Quaeda.
Quite right. The dangerous rise in influence of the Salaafist strain of Islam has been the main instigating factor behind Jihadi terrorist outrages. A great deal of this can be traced to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the 1988 founding of Al Quaeda.
Yeah, they’re mostly Catholics though who have had to face a significant amount of persecution and later prejudice in Britain.
Having said that being a Christian isn’t an immigration status, and certainly wouldn’t be in the heavily republican second or third republics in France.
I suggest looking at the difference between Algeria and cosmopolitan Sunni Muslims of Lebanon. What has damaged relations is the disappearance of of the Levantine Culture due to the rise of Salaafism.
only if he gets permission from mummy wife?!
You know I used to dislike the antics of Macron. I grew to like him a lot more, now I think he may be just the politician France needs. He wouldn’t be the first leader with an odd personal life for sure.
You know I used to dislike the antics of Macron. I grew to like him a lot more, now I think he may be just the politician France needs. He wouldn’t be the first leader with an odd personal life for sure.
The Irish are/were Christians the Algerians are not.
only if he gets permission from mummy wife?!
Here are the details of an important development mentioned in passing in this article that I quote from the equivalent Spectator article below:
I can see Macron getting tougher on this in the coming months.
It’s also worth adding the Algerian youth mentioned above are no more immigrants than the Irish in Britain. Any quick glance at the map of France from the second republic, and Algeria is part of France until 1962.
Bell’s notes are an overview or summary of the situation with little analysis or reflection. As a concerned transatlantic observer, I hope to get a bit more perspective from British and European commenters here–or perhaps emigrés and outsiders better informed than me–left, right, and center. The U.S. media I’ve perused and the BBC website seems to have very little in-depth coverage. (A bit soon to reflect on unrest that is ongoing, I know).
Gavin Mortimer and John Keiger of The Spectator are better informants of this ongoing situation. They’re present in France and are not following the left’s narrative like the above author – that this is legitimate political protest with rational demands.
The reality is destruction and greed, seized upon by Anarchistic types looking to tear down The Republic.
Thanks for the tip. I’m not looking to adopt a quick or conclusive assessment but I’ll use my remaining two free Spectator articles to follow up. Normally I’d “spend” them on whatever Lionel Shriver has to say.
The author , a professor at Princeton is doing little more than transposing BLM playbook from the US to France , as his students would expect .
Thanks for the tip. I’m not looking to adopt a quick or conclusive assessment but I’ll use my remaining two free Spectator articles to follow up. Normally I’d “spend” them on whatever Lionel Shriver has to say.
The author , a professor at Princeton is doing little more than transposing BLM playbook from the US to France , as his students would expect .
I recommend Le Monde. If you don’t read French, there is an English-language version that is easily accessible. In fact, if your IP is US-based, you might have to work a bit to get the French, but it’s worth it. Some articles are available for free, but to see all the reporting and analysis, you’ll need to subscribe. I subscribe via Google and get a very decent monthly rate.
Thanks. Even the limited number of free articles contain a different kind of perspective (as you’d expect) and I’m considering a subscription.
Thanks. Even the limited number of free articles contain a different kind of perspective (as you’d expect) and I’m considering a subscription.
A bit soon? As if 10 years is not enough time to document the tragedy? Sort of like what’s going on in SA, I’d say. Zero from Western media. They are too focused on the 1 or 2 minorities killed by police and have no time for reporting on the cold civil war that is raging in several Western countries.
Ok. But the city and suburbs are still smoldering. That’s what I mean about the lack of reflective distance or perspective.
Police killings of unarmed people of any race or age deserve reporting and nonviolent challenge, in my view, but there is irresponsible or tunnel-visioned reaction from the angrier or opportunistic public (and to a lesser extent) the police and government. This is another violent boiling over of the cold civil war you correctly diagnose. It’s not on ice anymore but I hope cooler heads will begin to prevail more often.
(Whoops, I’m already settling for a convenient general assessment after pledging ongoing attention and consideration. Looks like it’s not only those I disagree with who are guilty of doing that).
I suggest people read Arthur Bryant’s History of Britain vol 3 The Search for Justice where he describes the appalling poverty of Industrial Britain of the period of 1815 to 1850s. Yes there were riots, people were killed( probably less than 20 in this period) but Britain managed to change sufficiently to avoid civil war. If Britain can manage to navigate the massive changes caused by the first country to industrialise and the post Napoleonic Depression why cannot others?
The Non Conformist Christians who founded The Labour Party and did much to improve conditions in the slums were heavily influenced by the Old Testament, particularly The Proverbs which praises wisdom, discipline, discernment, honesty, and hardwork.
Bryant was the favourite historian of Attlee and Wilson, Labour Prime Ministers.
I’ll look into that volume. Of course nonconformist or liberationist Christians (such as
William Wilberforce–*whoops, confused him with William Lloyd Garrison) were a major force in raising anti-slavery feeling and bringing about abolition, though decades after Britain, at a very bloody cost.I’ll look into that volume. Of course nonconformist or liberationist Christians (such as
William Wilberforce–*whoops, confused him with William Lloyd Garrison) were a major force in raising anti-slavery feeling and bringing about abolition, though decades after Britain, at a very bloody cost.I suggest people read Arthur Bryant’s History of Britain vol 3 The Search for Justice where he describes the appalling poverty of Industrial Britain of the period of 1815 to 1850s. Yes there were riots, people were killed( probably less than 20 in this period) but Britain managed to change sufficiently to avoid civil war. If Britain can manage to navigate the massive changes caused by the first country to industrialise and the post Napoleonic Depression why cannot others?
The Non Conformist Christians who founded The Labour Party and did much to improve conditions in the slums were heavily influenced by the Old Testament, particularly The Proverbs which praises wisdom, discipline, discernment, honesty, and hardwork.
Bryant was the favourite historian of Attlee and Wilson, Labour Prime Ministers.
Ok. But the city and suburbs are still smoldering. That’s what I mean about the lack of reflective distance or perspective.
Police killings of unarmed people of any race or age deserve reporting and nonviolent challenge, in my view, but there is irresponsible or tunnel-visioned reaction from the angrier or opportunistic public (and to a lesser extent) the police and government. This is another violent boiling over of the cold civil war you correctly diagnose. It’s not on ice anymore but I hope cooler heads will begin to prevail more often.
(Whoops, I’m already settling for a convenient general assessment after pledging ongoing attention and consideration. Looks like it’s not only those I disagree with who are guilty of doing that).
Gavin Mortimer and John Keiger of The Spectator are better informants of this ongoing situation. They’re present in France and are not following the left’s narrative like the above author – that this is legitimate political protest with rational demands.
The reality is destruction and greed, seized upon by Anarchistic types looking to tear down The Republic.
I recommend Le Monde. If you don’t read French, there is an English-language version that is easily accessible. In fact, if your IP is US-based, you might have to work a bit to get the French, but it’s worth it. Some articles are available for free, but to see all the reporting and analysis, you’ll need to subscribe. I subscribe via Google and get a very decent monthly rate.
A bit soon? As if 10 years is not enough time to document the tragedy? Sort of like what’s going on in SA, I’d say. Zero from Western media. They are too focused on the 1 or 2 minorities killed by police and have no time for reporting on the cold civil war that is raging in several Western countries.
Bell’s notes are an overview or summary of the situation with little analysis or reflection. As a concerned transatlantic observer, I hope to get a bit more perspective from British and European commenters here–or perhaps emigrés and outsiders better informed than me–left, right, and center. The U.S. media I’ve perused and the BBC website seems to have very little in-depth coverage. (A bit soon to reflect on unrest that is ongoing, I know).
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”
Such insanity is primarily caused by confirmation bias. The author sees what he wants to see, predicated upon the path he recommended in 2005 that has already failed and continues to fail. Another open-and-closed case of “real socialism hasn’t been tried yet.” This time it’s “not the fault of the rioters, who have desperately few options for constructive action.”
The State has tried the author’s suggested approach over and over again within the fixed constraints of reality forced upon us by evolutionary nature. One constraint is having limited State funds that are only made available by taxing the productive quadrants of society to enable such a massive undertaking as full assimilation of less productive quadrants. All while, at the same time, actually running the State by taking care of the productive quadrants of society so they don’t flee with their wealth to another country/State (witness the misfortunes of California). Another constraint is the lack of desire or lack of initiative of some immigrants to make their new host country their home by learning the language and assimilating, etc.
The matriarchal road of compassion that the Author suggests, and that has been in vogue since the death of the patriarchy, always suggests it’s not “the children’s” fault. No matter what. Just like the lockdowns in California, the matriarchal suggestion is to wrap the children in bubble-wrap and assume Mommy Dearest (id est, the State) must stop all hardships for these children independent of their wish to take on more responsibility (including risks) themselves in their own lives.
The patriarchal model would suggest that if immigrants unilaterally choose their new home country and the new home country is kind enough to let them in, then it’s not up to that host country to ‘assimilate’ – it is up to the immigrants and their progeny to be grateful and make it work, just like all of our ancestors who survived the evolutionary process of migration. There’s been no other time in the history of our species when such immigrants have has access to such resources and wealth from their new host country…and there’s been no other time in history with so much bellyaching about how the new host country is to blame for immigrants’ fortunes.
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”
Such insanity is primarily caused by confirmation bias. The author sees what he wants to see, predicated upon the path he recommended in 2005 that has already failed and continues to fail. Another open-and-closed case of “real socialism hasn’t been tried yet.” This time it’s “not the fault of the rioters, who have desperately few options for constructive action.”
The State has tried the author’s suggested approach over and over again within the fixed constraints of reality forced upon us by evolutionary nature. One constraint is having limited State funds that are only made available by taxing the productive quadrants of society to enable such a massive undertaking as full assimilation of less productive quadrants. All while, at the same time, actually running the State by taking care of the productive quadrants of society so they don’t flee with their wealth to another country/State (witness the misfortunes of California). Another constraint is the lack of desire or lack of initiative of some immigrants to make their new host country their home by learning the language and assimilating, etc.
The matriarchal road of compassion that the Author suggests, and that has been in vogue since the death of the patriarchy, always suggests it’s not “the children’s” fault. No matter what. Just like the lockdowns in California, the matriarchal suggestion is to wrap the children in bubble-wrap and assume Mommy Dearest (id est, the State) must stop all hardships for these children independent of their wish to take on more responsibility (including risks) themselves in their own lives.
The patriarchal model would suggest that if immigrants unilaterally choose their new home country and the new home country is kind enough to let them in, then it’s not up to that host country to ‘assimilate’ – it is up to the immigrants and their progeny to be grateful and make it work, just like all of our ancestors who survived the evolutionary process of migration. There’s been no other time in the history of our species when such immigrants have has access to such resources and wealth from their new host country…and there’s been no other time in history with so much bellyaching about how the new host country is to blame for immigrants’ fortunes.
One right wing politician opened a a crow funding in favour of the policeman who shot this young guy.
At the same time, his mother did the same.
Yesterday lunch time, the policeman was collecting 550 000 eur
The mother…..50:000 eur
This evening the policeman is collecting over a million
What does this tell you about this plundering ?
It tells you that people have just enough.
I don’t think that dropping out of school…..and a good one at that, is just a smart move to end up delivering pizza and driving without a licence. Look where it took him.
I just heard this bewildering news yesterday that the French government was taking into account drug trafficking into its GDP. After all, these are jobs !!!
Not one of these under age plunderers gives a rat’s a…e about Nahël.
What they give a rat’s …… about is a pair of Nike or a stéréo or maybe burning a mayor’s house while his wife and 2 children are asleep and shoot at them when they try to flee.
That’s what happened in la Haye les Roses.
Time to vote…..with one’s suitcase because this country is totally f….d
One right wing politician opened a a crow funding in favour of the policeman who shot this young guy.
At the same time, his mother did the same.
Yesterday lunch time, the policeman was collecting 550 000 eur
The mother…..50:000 eur
This evening the policeman is collecting over a million
What does this tell you about this plundering ?
It tells you that people have just enough.
I don’t think that dropping out of school…..and a good one at that, is just a smart move to end up delivering pizza and driving without a licence. Look where it took him.
I just heard this bewildering news yesterday that the French government was taking into account drug trafficking into its GDP. After all, these are jobs !!!
Not one of these under age plunderers gives a rat’s a…e about Nahël.
What they give a rat’s …… about is a pair of Nike or a stéréo or maybe burning a mayor’s house while his wife and 2 children are asleep and shoot at them when they try to flee.
That’s what happened in la Haye les Roses.
Time to vote…..with one’s suitcase because this country is totally f….d
The only answer to this is *mass* deportations.
If not, it will end in mass murder.
The only answer to this is *mass* deportations.
If not, it will end in mass murder.
You can dismiss nearly every writer on the left who uses the term “far-right” in his, her or they article.
You can dismiss nearly every writer on the left who uses the term “far-right” in his, her or they article.
I never believed in multiculturalism for a single day of the past fifty years.
Well said.
That makes of two of us!
Well said.
That makes of two of us!
I never believed in multiculturalism for a single day of the past fifty years.
Western Society has moved toward advanced manufacturing, a knowledge economy and sophisticated control and repair of infrastructure: what percentage of the immigrants have the education and skills to be employed?
If one looks at assimilation of foreigners into Britain since the mid 16 th century the most important factor is the possession of employable skills and a work ethic. The Huguenot Silk Weavers did very well.
As off course so did the Jews, whom the ‘blessed’ Oliver Cromwell allowed to return after four centuries of exile.
Good point.
As off course so did the Jews, whom the ‘blessed’ Oliver Cromwell allowed to return after four centuries of exile.
Good point.
Western Society has moved toward advanced manufacturing, a knowledge economy and sophisticated control and repair of infrastructure: what percentage of the immigrants have the education and skills to be employed?
If one looks at assimilation of foreigners into Britain since the mid 16 th century the most important factor is the possession of employable skills and a work ethic. The Huguenot Silk Weavers did very well.
At first, I was more than a little confused as to why the rioters decided to burn the Olympic swimming pool that was under construction. And even more confused as to why the main library in Marseilles was burnt.
Then it suddenly struck me (and it seems, no one else), that a swimming pool is where people parade in very little in the way of clothes.
And a big library will contain lots of books with promiscuous writings, and books with lots of forbidden pictures etc etc.
This was the hard line Islamists seizing the opportunity to destroy a part of French culture that they despise.
At first, I was more than a little confused as to why the rioters decided to burn the Olympic swimming pool that was under construction. And even more confused as to why the main library in Marseilles was burnt.
Then it suddenly struck me (and it seems, no one else), that a swimming pool is where people parade in very little in the way of clothes.
And a big library will contain lots of books with promiscuous writings, and books with lots of forbidden pictures etc etc.
This was the hard line Islamists seizing the opportunity to destroy a part of French culture that they despise.
The Police shoot and kill a taxi driver for doing what? For attempt to run and escape from the Police. The driver made the first wrong move, but this causes the rioters to behave like thugs.I do not think that is justified. This entire problem reaches back to multiculturalism, which is proving to be a stupid mistake.
The Police shoot and kill a taxi driver for doing what? For attempt to run and escape from the Police. The driver made the first wrong move, but this causes the rioters to behave like thugs.I do not think that is justified. This entire problem reaches back to multiculturalism, which is proving to be a stupid mistake.
The riots themselves are not so unusual – summer flare ups are not uncommon in France. These are widespread though, also hitting traditionally middle-class towns, not just the usual major cities. Copycat riots also popped up in Belgium and Switzerland.
However, what seems to be different this time, is that there are signs of a backlash on the streets. French citizens aren’t tut-tutting over a glass of wine behind closed doors – groups are moving on to the streets to keep the rioters back to protect property. And, online, the le Pen right is being echoed by Vox and AfD and other European voices. The fear is that this turns physical – t*t-for-tat – and not just in France. Let’s hope it blows out quickly, before it gets that far.
Summer flare- up? Strewth.
Summer flare- up? Strewth.
The riots themselves are not so unusual – summer flare ups are not uncommon in France. These are widespread though, also hitting traditionally middle-class towns, not just the usual major cities. Copycat riots also popped up in Belgium and Switzerland.
However, what seems to be different this time, is that there are signs of a backlash on the streets. French citizens aren’t tut-tutting over a glass of wine behind closed doors – groups are moving on to the streets to keep the rioters back to protect property. And, online, the le Pen right is being echoed by Vox and AfD and other European voices. The fear is that this turns physical – t*t-for-tat – and not just in France. Let’s hope it blows out quickly, before it gets that far.
I live in a rural part of the U.S., surrounding by fields of wheat, corn, etc. I have come to the conclusion that immigration is much like irrigation: If you cut off all water supply, your fields will wither, but if you open the floodgates all at once and leave them open without any restriction, your fields will drown and wash away. I would think this could be understood even by our urban elites, but no.
Good analogy.
If you live in a farming area, you must understand many other basic things that our urban elites fail to grasp. For instance, I’m sure you understand that bulls don’t produce milk and roosters don’t lay eggs.
Oh, how the elites hate good old fashioned common sense.
What’s the definition of an elite?
What’s the definition of an elite?
For the farming industry, if we had guest worker visas I could get on board with it but no I think we don’t ‘need’ immigration lest we wither and die.
Good analogy.
If you live in a farming area, you must understand many other basic things that our urban elites fail to grasp. For instance, I’m sure you understand that bulls don’t produce milk and roosters don’t lay eggs.
Oh, how the elites hate good old fashioned common sense.
For the farming industry, if we had guest worker visas I could get on board with it but no I think we don’t ‘need’ immigration lest we wither and die.
I live in a rural part of the U.S., surrounding by fields of wheat, corn, etc. I have come to the conclusion that immigration is much like irrigation: If you cut off all water supply, your fields will wither, but if you open the floodgates all at once and leave them open without any restriction, your fields will drown and wash away. I would think this could be understood even by our urban elites, but no.
The pioneers who landed in the US cruelly eradicated the existing culture and thence built a civilisation that was truly multicultural as they were all starting from the same blank sheet. However in Europe immigrants arrive with no shared history or culture. They come to countries built, farmed and shaped by a millennium of indigenous, or close, people. Any immigrants were few and rapidly absorbed. With such an enormous and swift influx it is no wonder the inhabitants were resentful. And the more resentful they became the stronger the reaction of the unwanted newcomers who obviously could not share their sense of pride and patriotism. We are now paying the price of governments’ greedy grabbing at a constant stream of cheap labour. A right wing government would only add fuel to the fire. But we do need to stop immigration for a few decades and put more effort into integration.
In America there was no prevailing culture, only many different tribes trying to conquer each other. They also didn’t start from scratch; they built the country from British common law and culture adding little things here and there but it was British in the essentials. Remember, they thought of themselves as Englishmen for almost 150 years before the revolution.
In America there was no prevailing culture, only many different tribes trying to conquer each other. They also didn’t start from scratch; they built the country from British common law and culture adding little things here and there but it was British in the essentials. Remember, they thought of themselves as Englishmen for almost 150 years before the revolution.
The pioneers who landed in the US cruelly eradicated the existing culture and thence built a civilisation that was truly multicultural as they were all starting from the same blank sheet. However in Europe immigrants arrive with no shared history or culture. They come to countries built, farmed and shaped by a millennium of indigenous, or close, people. Any immigrants were few and rapidly absorbed. With such an enormous and swift influx it is no wonder the inhabitants were resentful. And the more resentful they became the stronger the reaction of the unwanted newcomers who obviously could not share their sense of pride and patriotism. We are now paying the price of governments’ greedy grabbing at a constant stream of cheap labour. A right wing government would only add fuel to the fire. But we do need to stop immigration for a few decades and put more effort into integration.
I think its time for NATO and the US to arm the moderate Islamists
Also a no fly zone might be a good idea
I agree! NLAWs, M1 Abrams, and F-16s must be sent to defeat Macron and his neoliberal Orcs 😉
No no, we need to help the oppressed minority
If you supported the war on Serbia, then you should be consistent and support war against Maricon snd his regime
No no, we need to help the oppressed minority
If you supported the war on Serbia, then you should be consistent and support war against Maricon snd his regime
I agree! NLAWs, M1 Abrams, and F-16s must be sent to defeat Macron and his neoliberal Orcs 😉
I think its time for NATO and the US to arm the moderate Islamists
Also a no fly zone might be a good idea
This is the problem with ‘multiculturalism’. When France rigorously forced immigrants to assimilate, they were highly successful. When they attempted to simply bring the people and let them keep their culture, the result is civil strife. This is pretty predictable actually, when one considers how modern nation states came to be formed, mostly in Europe and mostly in the last 200 years (there was no Germany in 1800, nor Italy). The idea of the modern nation state is, in itself, a great achievement, a result of government, elite, and media efforts to forge and promote bonds across many different peoples in a geographic area, leveraging tribal instincts toward functional, mostly self-sufficient mostly peaceful wholes. Now, however, for whatever reasons noble, self-serving, or both, the powers that be have decided to attempt to push culture towards ‘globalism’ and do away with the notion of the nation state except as a tool of regional enforcement of ‘global’ policy. In doing so, they are attempting to simultaneously fight both the work of previous generations that created the nation states we have and more importantly the more basic notion of human tribalism. They probably recognize the former and if that were their only obstacle, I would be more optimistic about their chances. However, they clearly either ignore or vastly underrate the importance of tribalistic instincts in managing large groups of people. In America it’s apparent that even in a culture that is globally dominant, people will separate themselves into tribes using whatever means are convenient and struggle for power against each other. If there’s no outlet for our tribal instincts, we invent a new one, so America is in a de facto cold war with itself between rural, traditional Americanism, and the globalized urbanism that is everywhere under siege. Eventually, the globalists are going to lose because there is no such thing as a tribe without other tribes. There must be at least two. The notion of all humanity identifying with each other equally as one species is as fictional as pink unicorns and fire breathing dragons. There will be conflict, and the traditional reason tribes split and separated geographically in the first place was to limit conflicts over resources between factions within the culture. Two small harmonious villages with civil order is better than one large village with people fighting over who gets the most meat from yesterday’s hunt. By the same token, a more or less organized globe with a few hundred independent nation states vying for power in a more or less organized and usually peaceful way is compatible with this tribalism. A single unified tribe of ‘humans’ is not, and would invariably descend into internal strife, warfare, burning cars, and eventually much worse. Globalism is futile strategy.
This is the problem with ‘multiculturalism’. When France rigorously forced immigrants to assimilate, they were highly successful. When they attempted to simply bring the people and let them keep their culture, the result is civil strife. This is pretty predictable actually, when one considers how modern nation states came to be formed, mostly in Europe and mostly in the last 200 years (there was no Germany in 1800, nor Italy). The idea of the modern nation state is, in itself, a great achievement, a result of government, elite, and media efforts to forge and promote bonds across many different peoples in a geographic area, leveraging tribal instincts toward functional, mostly self-sufficient mostly peaceful wholes. Now, however, for whatever reasons noble, self-serving, or both, the powers that be have decided to attempt to push culture towards ‘globalism’ and do away with the notion of the nation state except as a tool of regional enforcement of ‘global’ policy. In doing so, they are attempting to simultaneously fight both the work of previous generations that created the nation states we have and more importantly the more basic notion of human tribalism. They probably recognize the former and if that were their only obstacle, I would be more optimistic about their chances. However, they clearly either ignore or vastly underrate the importance of tribalistic instincts in managing large groups of people. In America it’s apparent that even in a culture that is globally dominant, people will separate themselves into tribes using whatever means are convenient and struggle for power against each other. If there’s no outlet for our tribal instincts, we invent a new one, so America is in a de facto cold war with itself between rural, traditional Americanism, and the globalized urbanism that is everywhere under siege. Eventually, the globalists are going to lose because there is no such thing as a tribe without other tribes. There must be at least two. The notion of all humanity identifying with each other equally as one species is as fictional as pink unicorns and fire breathing dragons. There will be conflict, and the traditional reason tribes split and separated geographically in the first place was to limit conflicts over resources between factions within the culture. Two small harmonious villages with civil order is better than one large village with people fighting over who gets the most meat from yesterday’s hunt. By the same token, a more or less organized globe with a few hundred independent nation states vying for power in a more or less organized and usually peaceful way is compatible with this tribalism. A single unified tribe of ‘humans’ is not, and would invariably descend into internal strife, warfare, burning cars, and eventually much worse. Globalism is futile strategy.
Shades of Ulster ’69?… it is merely a matter of time before this happens all over Europe and in nu britn.
Shades of Ulster ’69?… it is merely a matter of time before this happens all over Europe and in nu britn.
The left wing Algerian government supported the USSR over Afghanistan. Many Islamicists fought in Afghanistan and then returned to Algeria and helped to start the civil war.
How many of the rioters have parents or family who supported the Islamicists during the Algerian Civil War of 1991 to 2002 and who then fled to France ? If the rioters have parents who are Islamicists, then they are politically as far away as it is possible to be from the concept of laicite.
Algerian Civil War – Wikipedia
To make matters worse there is no history of the sophisticated Sunni Muslim Culture which has existed in Lebanon and Egypt to be found in Algeria.Algeria has suffered two brutal struggles in the last 70 years which will tend to produce brutal people.
The left wing Algerian government supported the USSR over Afghanistan. Many Islamicists fought in Afghanistan and then returned to Algeria and helped to start the civil war.
How many of the rioters have parents or family who supported the Islamicists during the Algerian Civil War of 1991 to 2002 and who then fled to France ? If the rioters have parents who are Islamicists, then they are politically as far away as it is possible to be from the concept of laicite.
Algerian Civil War – Wikipedia
To make matters worse there is no history of the sophisticated Sunni Muslim Culture which has existed in Lebanon and Egypt to be found in Algeria.Algeria has suffered two brutal struggles in the last 70 years which will tend to produce brutal people.
Although despite my criticisms of the piece, bravo Professor Bell, this was a good line.
“In both the presidential and parliamentary elections last year, this vision helped the French far-Right achieve its greatest political successes since the 19th century (at least, when not helped by the Wehrmacht).”
Although despite my criticisms of the piece, bravo Professor Bell, this was a good line.
“In both the presidential and parliamentary elections last year, this vision helped the French far-Right achieve its greatest political successes since the 19th century (at least, when not helped by the Wehrmacht).”
I recall the days when the French used to openly boast how ‘inclusive’ they were by allowing their common soldiery and others to freely copulate with the ‘natives’. The Spanish and Portuguese also seem to have followed a similar policy.
Off course we the ‘sainted’ British quite correctly frowned on such behaviour, regarding it as getting a dose of ‘jungle fever’, and shame did the rest!
I wonder what the verdict of history will be?
They missed out!
They missed out!
I recall the days when the French used to openly boast how ‘inclusive’ they were by allowing their common soldiery and others to freely copulate with the ‘natives’. The Spanish and Portuguese also seem to have followed a similar policy.
Off course we the ‘sainted’ British quite correctly frowned on such behaviour, regarding it as getting a dose of ‘jungle fever’, and shame did the rest!
I wonder what the verdict of history will be?
You regularly mention reforms needed in France. You don’t identity them nor describe them. Why?
Let me do it for him . Busing schoolchildren into middle class white schools .(From the US civil rights movement playbook) How about reparations for the oppressed migrants . True they aren’t descended from slaves but they were ‘colonised’ which is a sort of communal slavery , so they still qualify .
How about more immigration . If they are on level terms numerically then they will feel less oppressed , and can express themselves politically without needing to riot . What could go wrong ?
Let me do it for him . Busing schoolchildren into middle class white schools .(From the US civil rights movement playbook) How about reparations for the oppressed migrants . True they aren’t descended from slaves but they were ‘colonised’ which is a sort of communal slavery , so they still qualify .
How about more immigration . If they are on level terms numerically then they will feel less oppressed , and can express themselves politically without needing to riot . What could go wrong ?
You regularly mention reforms needed in France. You don’t identity them nor describe them. Why?
Time perhaps for a “whiff of grapeshot “ as Napoleon is reputed to have said.*
(* Or was it Thomas Carlyle?)
white grapes.. it is summer!!!
white grapes.. it is summer!!!
Time perhaps for a “whiff of grapeshot “ as Napoleon is reputed to have said.*
(* Or was it Thomas Carlyle?)
But you can’t blame the far-Right for the violence, can you? They are only exploiting it. The Left, or rather what the Left has become, is the problem. A Left that is only neoliberalism wrapped in bourgeois identity politics and funded by corporate money cannot continue. Must not continue!
I see no way for the Left to once again becoming a workers’ movement focused on political and economic equality without its utter repudiation by the electorate. Unfortunately, in the short run this means electoral success for the Right.
The future is unknowable, but the present is unsustainable.
But you can’t blame the far-Right for the violence, can you? They are only exploiting it. The Left, or rather what the Left has become, is the problem. A Left that is only neoliberalism wrapped in bourgeois identity politics and funded by corporate money cannot continue. Must not continue!
I see no way for the Left to once again becoming a workers’ movement focused on political and economic equality without its utter repudiation by the electorate. Unfortunately, in the short run this means electoral success for the Right.
The future is unknowable, but the present is unsustainable.
Germany studied the lack of integration of Muslim communities and changed its immigration policies: no more young, illiterate brides to be locked in the kitchen. How come Germany does not have large immigrant riots?
Germany studied the lack of integration of Muslim communities and changed its immigration policies: no more young, illiterate brides to be locked in the kitchen. How come Germany does not have large immigrant riots?
The youth in question, whose fleeing of the scene led to his death, was almost certainly driving a stolen car with Polish plates, a common practice amongst drug dealers.
One can say drug prohibition creates bootleggers, smugglers, gang warfare, and police states. One can say that dark skinned people are poorer than their fair skinned fellow citizens. One can even say that many countries wink at drug use, and tacitly allow it, and that both inebriation and addiction are a common enough human failing.
Certainly the United States, for all of its vast police forces and heavily armed citizenry, struggles to contain the addicted, the criminally violent, antisocial individuals, and the mentally ill within the confines of many of its major cities.
An hour or so away from where I write this, a huge community of homeless people, most of them drug addicts, set up refugee camps around methadone clinics and drug rehab facilities, where street dealers, many of them from Central America, find a captive and desperate clientele. These portions of American cities resemble nothing so much as a third world, developing country’s poorest neighborhoods, albeit surrounded by the preposterous, glittering wealth of our huge coastal cities.
In other words, you can’t insist on clean streets, public order, private property, and a functioning society, if young men like Mr Nahel can simply steal what they’d like, break whatever laws they deem irrelevant, and simply abscond from the police if they’re about to be apprehended.
Nor should the threat of race riots, public uprisings, violent tantrums of tribal grievances, and even the complicity of public authorities prevent basic order to be maintained.
If you have an enemy within your society that refuses to participate in mainstream commercial activities, refuses to culturally assimilate on the most basic levels, refuses to obey your laws, and contributes little or nothing to the public benefit, then that enemy must be removed from your society, perhaps permanently.
Otherwise, they’ll destroy it.
Pious appears to tolerance, liberality, kindness, and decency won’t stop them. Only effective, direct actions can do so, preferably – an option perhaps unavailable to the French – before they grow into an unmanageable, unassailable size.
An elegant, if hard-hitting, contribution with which I wholly concur.
An elegant, if hard-hitting, contribution with which I wholly concur.
The youth in question, whose fleeing of the scene led to his death, was almost certainly driving a stolen car with Polish plates, a common practice amongst drug dealers.
One can say drug prohibition creates bootleggers, smugglers, gang warfare, and police states. One can say that dark skinned people are poorer than their fair skinned fellow citizens. One can even say that many countries wink at drug use, and tacitly allow it, and that both inebriation and addiction are a common enough human failing.
Certainly the United States, for all of its vast police forces and heavily armed citizenry, struggles to contain the addicted, the criminally violent, antisocial individuals, and the mentally ill within the confines of many of its major cities.
An hour or so away from where I write this, a huge community of homeless people, most of them drug addicts, set up refugee camps around methadone clinics and drug rehab facilities, where street dealers, many of them from Central America, find a captive and desperate clientele. These portions of American cities resemble nothing so much as a third world, developing country’s poorest neighborhoods, albeit surrounded by the preposterous, glittering wealth of our huge coastal cities.
In other words, you can’t insist on clean streets, public order, private property, and a functioning society, if young men like Mr Nahel can simply steal what they’d like, break whatever laws they deem irrelevant, and simply abscond from the police if they’re about to be apprehended.
Nor should the threat of race riots, public uprisings, violent tantrums of tribal grievances, and even the complicity of public authorities prevent basic order to be maintained.
If you have an enemy within your society that refuses to participate in mainstream commercial activities, refuses to culturally assimilate on the most basic levels, refuses to obey your laws, and contributes little or nothing to the public benefit, then that enemy must be removed from your society, perhaps permanently.
Otherwise, they’ll destroy it.
Pious appears to tolerance, liberality, kindness, and decency won’t stop them. Only effective, direct actions can do so, preferably – an option perhaps unavailable to the French – before they grow into an unmanageable, unassailable size.
David Bell-End.
David Bell-End.
I would observe that the term “far-right” as used in Continental Europe has become a more-or-less meaningless pejorative, as it embraces everything from actual neo-Nazis to people who, had they not noticed that every fiqh of Islamic Sharia is deeply illiberal and concluded that Europe could do with far less immigration from the Muslim world, would be perfect centrists (I have in mind the Dutch “far-right” Geert Wilders, whose positions on all other issues are quite centrist, but who is tarred as “far-right” for his opposition to Muslim immigration.)
Italy seems do be doing alright with a coalition government led by a party that traces its roots to the Fascists, but whose program is less like that of the Fascists of old than, say the American Democrats who just love the union of state and corporate power (Mussolini’s own definition of Fascism) they were wielding in getting tech companies to censor opposition voices until a Federal judge issued an injunction to put a stop to it.
I suspect a Marine LePen presidency would be much like the current Italian government.
I’m appalled by the stupidity and bigotry of the comments in response to this article. There are fundamental problems in French society around inequality, education, access to opportunities, social attitudes to racial and religious differences, strategies of policing etc that need a robust, practical political response. Excluding and alienating oppressed citizens harder will only make it worse.
“ inequality, education, access to opportunities, social attitudes to racial and religious differences, strategies of policing etc”. Yet they risk life and limb to arrive there. Hmmmm.
Compared to where the rioters come from, they have far more opportunities in France. One can learn mathematics needed for engineering with a pencil and paper however as Proverbs says one needs wisdom, discipline and discernment. Newton achieved a greater understanding of the universe than any other person while working on the family farm.
G Stephenson, inventor of locomotives was illiterate until the age of eighteen years. Many of the engineers of the Industrial Revolution came from poverty which was why Keir Hardie, a man who went down the mines at twelves years of age, praised Sam Smiles ” “Self Help ” as a manual for socialism. I suggest you study the Rochdate Pioneers and the founding of the Cooperative Movement .
They are neither stupid nor bigoted; they are well argued and fearless. Be done with your pious, conformist bleating.
Precisely.
A truly excellent rejoinder!
Precisely.
A truly excellent rejoinder!
dream on.. then wake, not woke, up!!
Sounds about right.
Stupid loves company.
Stupid loves company.
Can you not spare a single solitary thought for the generations of women who will come after you who will suffer FGM, spend their lives encased in a black shroud and maybe enjoy a quarter share in a violent and abusive husband? All so you can continue to virtue signal? Wow. Narcissism on steroids.
“ inequality, education, access to opportunities, social attitudes to racial and religious differences, strategies of policing etc”. Yet they risk life and limb to arrive there. Hmmmm.
Compared to where the rioters come from, they have far more opportunities in France. One can learn mathematics needed for engineering with a pencil and paper however as Proverbs says one needs wisdom, discipline and discernment. Newton achieved a greater understanding of the universe than any other person while working on the family farm.
G Stephenson, inventor of locomotives was illiterate until the age of eighteen years. Many of the engineers of the Industrial Revolution came from poverty which was why Keir Hardie, a man who went down the mines at twelves years of age, praised Sam Smiles ” “Self Help ” as a manual for socialism. I suggest you study the Rochdate Pioneers and the founding of the Cooperative Movement .
They are neither stupid nor bigoted; they are well argued and fearless. Be done with your pious, conformist bleating.
dream on.. then wake, not woke, up!!
Sounds about right.
Can you not spare a single solitary thought for the generations of women who will come after you who will suffer FGM, spend their lives encased in a black shroud and maybe enjoy a quarter share in a violent and abusive husband? All so you can continue to virtue signal? Wow. Narcissism on steroids.
I’m appalled by the stupidity and bigotry of the comments in response to this article. There are fundamental problems in French society around inequality, education, access to opportunities, social attitudes to racial and religious differences, strategies of policing etc that need a robust, practical political response. Excluding and alienating oppressed citizens harder will only make it worse.