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Bruce V
Bruce V
10 months ago

Good article IMHO. Appreciate the authors work.
Bizarre sequence of events anyway you try to slice it.

tom j
tom j
10 months ago
Reply to  Bruce V

I think we should all admit we haven’t a clue what is going on.

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  tom j

Here is something….What if Putin is playing the West? The thing is, Wagner is now in Belarus. That’s a large, super experienced military force that’s now potentially being stationed 150 kilometers from Kyiv. If this NATO meeting on the 11th of July is about escalation…. I’m just sayin’.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
Judy Englander
Judy Englander
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

1) Wagner could have been moved to Belarus without taking Rostov, without marching on Moscow and without shooting down several valuable helicopters and an electronic intelligence plane, killing around eleven servicemen; 2) It’s not at all clear that Wagner is going to Belarus, only that Prigozhin is supposed to be going there.

Last edited 10 months ago by Judy Englander
Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

True… although, are you sure helicopters being shot down is true? Also, did anyone die? What’s true?

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

True… although, are you sure helicopters being shot down is true? Also, did anyone die? What’s true?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

..my thoughts precisely.. with Ukraine keen to exploit the vacuum created in the Donbas, all eyes off Kyev.
Or it might be to lure Ukrainians into the void, ie a trap? Certainly it gives Putin’s generals more options and forces Ukraine to spread its much depleted forces more thinly. Wheels within wheels..

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar…
Back on Planet Earth, Vagner remains off the front lines. Even if significant numbers move to Belarus, well, if the Russia’s best trained armoured forces couldn’t break through in the north, it’s doubtful that guys trained to fight third world fighters will do any better.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar…
Back on Planet Earth, Vagner remains off the front lines. Even if significant numbers move to Belarus, well, if the Russia’s best trained armoured forces couldn’t break through in the north, it’s doubtful that guys trained to fight third world fighters will do any better.

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

1) Wagner could have been moved to Belarus without taking Rostov, without marching on Moscow and without shooting down several valuable helicopters and an electronic intelligence plane, killing around eleven servicemen; 2) It’s not at all clear that Wagner is going to Belarus, only that Prigozhin is supposed to be going there.

Last edited 10 months ago by Judy Englander
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

..my thoughts precisely.. with Ukraine keen to exploit the vacuum created in the Donbas, all eyes off Kyev.
Or it might be to lure Ukrainians into the void, ie a trap? Certainly it gives Putin’s generals more options and forces Ukraine to spread its much depleted forces more thinly. Wheels within wheels..

stephen archer
stephen archer
10 months ago
Reply to  tom j

Happy to admit it but others commenting seem to know better. For the last 60 hours or so everyone seems to be interpreting what’s coming out of Russia at face value and it certainly is confusing but before that most believed it was either blatant lies or fantasy. Why the sudden change?

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  tom j

Here is something….What if Putin is playing the West? The thing is, Wagner is now in Belarus. That’s a large, super experienced military force that’s now potentially being stationed 150 kilometers from Kyiv. If this NATO meeting on the 11th of July is about escalation…. I’m just sayin’.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
stephen archer
stephen archer
10 months ago
Reply to  tom j

Happy to admit it but others commenting seem to know better. For the last 60 hours or so everyone seems to be interpreting what’s coming out of Russia at face value and it certainly is confusing but before that most believed it was either blatant lies or fantasy. Why the sudden change?

tom j
tom j
10 months ago
Reply to  Bruce V

I think we should all admit we haven’t a clue what is going on.

Bruce V
Bruce V
10 months ago

Good article IMHO. Appreciate the authors work.
Bizarre sequence of events anyway you try to slice it.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago

“…It is impossible to know whether Prigozhin’s weekend adventure will make him a major player in Russia’s future, or award him a death sentence…”

I cannot see how it can be anything but the latter, he has nowhere to run. A return to Russia is pretty much out no matter what happens to Putin. He will now have lost the entirety of his wealth that was not outside Russia. He cannot survive in Belarus without maintaining a private army and the chance of Lukashenko allowing that is zero. If Putin survives for any length of time Prigozhin would quite likely get poisoned soon enough. The idea of an escape to Africa is fantasy – in a land full of mafiosi who are well ensconced, Prigozhin managing to establish himself in any context before he is divested of his wealth and gets killed is I would say unlikely in the extreme. It would be different if it was Kadyrov, who has the lawless Chechen countryside he can slink away into, plus, as a muslim brother there would be someone who would take him in, like Saudi Arabia did with Idi Amin. Prigozhin on other hand is a sitting duck exposed out in the open.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Prigozhin will end up either “accidentally” falling out of a window or being poisoned. A third possibility is, that a disenchanted Wagner soldier (and there are quite a few) will shoot him. No way he will have a future part in Russian politics or military.
On the other hand the whole story is so bizarre and unreal, especially that Putin will forget and forgive (he never does). I yesterday read that a German ex general and military historian thinks, that Prigozhin was part of a plot initiated by Putin to see which military brass and close associates will stay on the side lines and would happily watch Putin’s demise. These “traitors” will by now have been spotted and are awaiting a bad ending.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

A definite possibility.. it may have been the sole reason or just one of several? Poo bear is a wily bear!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

A definite possibility.. it may have been the sole reason or just one of several? Poo bear is a wily bear!

Angelique Todesco
Angelique Todesco
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

I think in his position I would be tempted to make a deal with Ukraine to switch sides in exchange for immunity from former war crimes and turn his army against Russia, at least then he might be less likely to learn about the finer mechanics of defenestration.

D Walsh
D Walsh
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

He might have a passport for an other country

But I think his days are numbered

Dominic A
Dominic A
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Perhaps Prighozin has kompromat on Putin, and just delivered the classic – ‘if anything happens to me, certain information will be released to the media’. Afterall, he was Putuns caterer, turned dirty jobs man…

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Unless the cats paw is required further.

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
10 months ago
Reply to  Bret Larson

Did the Prighozin people pick up a nuclear weapon or two at the storage facility the Wagner Group passed in the direction of Moscow?

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
10 months ago
Reply to  Bret Larson

Did the Prighozin people pick up a nuclear weapon or two at the storage facility the Wagner Group passed in the direction of Moscow?

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Prigozhin will end up either “accidentally” falling out of a window or being poisoned. A third possibility is, that a disenchanted Wagner soldier (and there are quite a few) will shoot him. No way he will have a future part in Russian politics or military.
On the other hand the whole story is so bizarre and unreal, especially that Putin will forget and forgive (he never does). I yesterday read that a German ex general and military historian thinks, that Prigozhin was part of a plot initiated by Putin to see which military brass and close associates will stay on the side lines and would happily watch Putin’s demise. These “traitors” will by now have been spotted and are awaiting a bad ending.

Angelique Todesco
Angelique Todesco
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

I think in his position I would be tempted to make a deal with Ukraine to switch sides in exchange for immunity from former war crimes and turn his army against Russia, at least then he might be less likely to learn about the finer mechanics of defenestration.

D Walsh
D Walsh
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

He might have a passport for an other country

But I think his days are numbered

Dominic A
Dominic A
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Perhaps Prighozin has kompromat on Putin, and just delivered the classic – ‘if anything happens to me, certain information will be released to the media’. Afterall, he was Putuns caterer, turned dirty jobs man…

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Unless the cats paw is required further.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago

“…It is impossible to know whether Prigozhin’s weekend adventure will make him a major player in Russia’s future, or award him a death sentence…”

I cannot see how it can be anything but the latter, he has nowhere to run. A return to Russia is pretty much out no matter what happens to Putin. He will now have lost the entirety of his wealth that was not outside Russia. He cannot survive in Belarus without maintaining a private army and the chance of Lukashenko allowing that is zero. If Putin survives for any length of time Prigozhin would quite likely get poisoned soon enough. The idea of an escape to Africa is fantasy – in a land full of mafiosi who are well ensconced, Prigozhin managing to establish himself in any context before he is divested of his wealth and gets killed is I would say unlikely in the extreme. It would be different if it was Kadyrov, who has the lawless Chechen countryside he can slink away into, plus, as a muslim brother there would be someone who would take him in, like Saudi Arabia did with Idi Amin. Prigozhin on other hand is a sitting duck exposed out in the open.

N T
N T
10 months ago

what a bizarre 24 hours.
if 25,000 troops could do that, imagine what 25,000 of someone else’s troops could do.

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  N T

Apparently they were spread all over, and he only had 2000 or so near him at the time.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  N T

..I doubt it was anything more than a wily Russian ruse..

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  N T

Apparently they were spread all over, and he only had 2000 or so near him at the time.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  N T

..I doubt it was anything more than a wily Russian ruse..

N T
N T
10 months ago

what a bizarre 24 hours.
if 25,000 troops could do that, imagine what 25,000 of someone else’s troops could do.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago

Given that a similar failed putsch eventually led to the collapse of the Tsarist regime in 1917, we have to see this as a serious blow to Putin.
Almost totally isolated from the real world, up till now Putin has clung to his mystical vision that Russia always wins in the end (factually false, of course. Russia has lost more wars than it won since Peter the Great. It’s just that most Russians in power are ignorant of their own history).
But now, reality has punched its way through the mysticism. No Russian knows how to win this war, or even how to avoid defeat. The West’s will has proven stronger than Putin’s, and hanging on til the West “tires” just loses more territory.
Putin may eventually blow the nuclear plant. But that will totally isolate him. Even China cannot stand for that.
Prigozhin’s contribution was to finally reveal to Putin that his plan can’t work. He now has no rational courses of action save withdrawal.
So now, the only real question is: is Putin still rational?

Last edited 10 months ago by martin logan
Tim Lever
Tim Lever
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

More Russophobia from Aris. Remember swastikas just prove your a badass not a Nazi

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Tim Lever

But the swastika tattoos on Prigozhin’s right-hand man, Utkin, probably do signify which side in this conflict are the real Nazis.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Tim Lever

But the swastika tattoos on Prigozhin’s right-hand man, Utkin, probably do signify which side in this conflict are the real Nazis.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Yes.. rational, smart, wily, intelligent, healthy and relatively young.. fully the obverse of Biden.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

I dont think that Putin thinks Russia always wins. He harks back to Stalin defeating Germany because he knows this is a fatal weakness for the West.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

Stalin’s been a long time gone–and the brutal system that enabled him to sacrifice 28 million to defeat Russia has completely vanished.
Doubtful if modern Russian soldiers would clear mines with their feet, as Soviet soldiers did in WW2.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

I really doubt Putin is thinking this way. Especially not with no lend-lease.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

I really doubt Putin is thinking this way. Especially not with no lend-lease.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

Stalin’s been a long time gone–and the brutal system that enabled him to sacrifice 28 million to defeat Russia has completely vanished.
Doubtful if modern Russian soldiers would clear mines with their feet, as Soviet soldiers did in WW2.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Just because the ones paying the price complain, doesnt mean it wont work.

Tim Lever
Tim Lever
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

More Russophobia from Aris. Remember swastikas just prove your a badass not a Nazi

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Yes.. rational, smart, wily, intelligent, healthy and relatively young.. fully the obverse of Biden.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

I dont think that Putin thinks Russia always wins. He harks back to Stalin defeating Germany because he knows this is a fatal weakness for the West.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Just because the ones paying the price complain, doesnt mean it wont work.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago

Given that a similar failed putsch eventually led to the collapse of the Tsarist regime in 1917, we have to see this as a serious blow to Putin.
Almost totally isolated from the real world, up till now Putin has clung to his mystical vision that Russia always wins in the end (factually false, of course. Russia has lost more wars than it won since Peter the Great. It’s just that most Russians in power are ignorant of their own history).
But now, reality has punched its way through the mysticism. No Russian knows how to win this war, or even how to avoid defeat. The West’s will has proven stronger than Putin’s, and hanging on til the West “tires” just loses more territory.
Putin may eventually blow the nuclear plant. But that will totally isolate him. Even China cannot stand for that.
Prigozhin’s contribution was to finally reveal to Putin that his plan can’t work. He now has no rational courses of action save withdrawal.
So now, the only real question is: is Putin still rational?

Last edited 10 months ago by martin logan
David Barnett
David Barnett
10 months ago

The most interesting interpretation of the Prigozhin “coup” attempt is that Prigozhin is, and always has been Putin’s creature and that the “coup” was Putin Mazkirovka to flush out disloyal elements and expose Western government interference channels.
Internally, Putin is strengthened. Putin is immensely popular in Russia, and an extremely canny operator. Underestimate him at you peril. As far as I can see, he is playing the western elites’ hatred of him brilliantly. Any interpretation suggesting Putin is losing control of Russia is delusional.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  David Barnett

I concur.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  David Barnett

Putin is immensely popular…because the people in Rostov were celebrating Vagner as they marched on Moscow?
And if Putin is “playing the western elites brilliantly” how come he abandoned Kyiv, Kharkiv and Kherson? How come the Russian Navy lost the Moskva? How come bridges going in and out of Crimea were rendered inoperable?
Pls continue to believe this–the surprise at the end will be all the greater.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

You don’t kill a chicken by plucking it.

Those who are plucking are easy targets.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

You don’t kill a chicken by plucking it.

Those who are plucking are easy targets.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  David Barnett

I concur.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  David Barnett

Putin is immensely popular…because the people in Rostov were celebrating Vagner as they marched on Moscow?
And if Putin is “playing the western elites brilliantly” how come he abandoned Kyiv, Kharkiv and Kherson? How come the Russian Navy lost the Moskva? How come bridges going in and out of Crimea were rendered inoperable?
Pls continue to believe this–the surprise at the end will be all the greater.

David Barnett
David Barnett
10 months ago

The most interesting interpretation of the Prigozhin “coup” attempt is that Prigozhin is, and always has been Putin’s creature and that the “coup” was Putin Mazkirovka to flush out disloyal elements and expose Western government interference channels.
Internally, Putin is strengthened. Putin is immensely popular in Russia, and an extremely canny operator. Underestimate him at you peril. As far as I can see, he is playing the western elites’ hatred of him brilliantly. Any interpretation suggesting Putin is losing control of Russia is delusional.

Rupert Carnegie
Rupert Carnegie
10 months ago

Interesting article. I have no inside information but the sequence of events suggested to me a “last throw of the dice” by an increasingly isolated, marginalised and desperate individual.

The immediate question that intrigues me is whether Kiev deliberately paused their counter-offensive while this drama played out – hoping it would lead to Russian forces being withdrawn from the front line to suppress Wagner. If so, perhaps we will now see a reinvigoration of their attacks southwards.

Last edited 10 months ago by Rupert Carnegie
Rupert Carnegie
Rupert Carnegie
10 months ago

Interesting article. I have no inside information but the sequence of events suggested to me a “last throw of the dice” by an increasingly isolated, marginalised and desperate individual.

The immediate question that intrigues me is whether Kiev deliberately paused their counter-offensive while this drama played out – hoping it would lead to Russian forces being withdrawn from the front line to suppress Wagner. If so, perhaps we will now see a reinvigoration of their attacks southwards.

Last edited 10 months ago by Rupert Carnegie
Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
10 months ago

Pugachev, an excellent comparison. Still I wish writers would explain further the many talented nature of this man: prisoner in Gorbachov’s time, baker or something to Putin, something which is always announced but never explained how the chef morphed into running a troll factory as good or better than that orchestrated by the might of the British government, the GDU: suddenly the leader of pretty large mercenary armies, smaller than the militias owned by Poroshenko’s governers’ militias but big enough to wage war in several African countries at once. Does he have fabulous organising skills? Is he particularly good at selecting staff? A true Renaissance man.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
10 months ago

Pugachev, an excellent comparison. Still I wish writers would explain further the many talented nature of this man: prisoner in Gorbachov’s time, baker or something to Putin, something which is always announced but never explained how the chef morphed into running a troll factory as good or better than that orchestrated by the might of the British government, the GDU: suddenly the leader of pretty large mercenary armies, smaller than the militias owned by Poroshenko’s governers’ militias but big enough to wage war in several African countries at once. Does he have fabulous organising skills? Is he particularly good at selecting staff? A true Renaissance man.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago

The best part of all this is that the only competent Russian general, Surovikin, was also much too close to Vagner.
Putin is now so paranoid, he will never put him in any position of power again.
Thankfully, incompetents like Shoigu and Gerasimov will stay put until they die.
Along with the most incompetent of them all: V. V. Putin.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago

The best part of all this is that the only competent Russian general, Surovikin, was also much too close to Vagner.
Putin is now so paranoid, he will never put him in any position of power again.
Thankfully, incompetents like Shoigu and Gerasimov will stay put until they die.
Along with the most incompetent of them all: V. V. Putin.

J Bryant
J Bryant
10 months ago

The explanation I haven’t seen discussed in this article or elsewhere (perhaps because it is unrealistic) is that Prigozhin was encouraged by the CIA, and perhaps Ukraine’s security services, to attempt a rebellion that would supposedly trigger an uprising by anti-Putin forces in Russia and perhaps leave Prigozhin in charge.
From the perspective of the West, this type of uprising would succeed even if it failed because it would politically weaken Putin (as it appears to have done). I’m reminded of the drone attacks on the Kremlin that preceded the Ukrainian spring offensive: done to humiliate Putin and demoralize his supporters and military.
I suppose the counterargument to this possibility is who in their right mind would want Prigozhin in charge?
As the author notes, now we must all wait to see how the consequences of this farce play out.

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
10 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

I am always surprised to see Western influence/money/intelligence, or at least a foreign state’s support sought behind events in Eastern/Central Europe. Why would Prigozhin trust the CIA or Ukraine’s security services?

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Yes, he was absolutely flipped. According to Scott Ritter the information is apparently that it was mainly the Brits and MI6. The CIA was apparently also involved. It appears that Prigozhin was also broadcasting Ukraine talking points about how the war was going as well, and there had been some Ukrainian infiltrators that had been captured in Moscow two days before who were supposed to be part of this, by creating chaos there. We also now know that before it even happened, US intelligence informed congress. So, everyone knew about it before it happened.
It appears that since the sanctions didn’t work, and the Spring offensive is not working that this is the last big hope. Destabilization from the inside, or at least with the optics of this, making nations think Russia is on shaky ground, and to abandon them. Here is my question. Are we to actually believe that Russian security services didn’t also know exactly what was going on? That this Prigozhin was not a closely monitored man? 

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Scott Ritter. OK

zee upītis
zee upītis
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Gotta love those people, it’s always the West orchestrating everything. What a boring world you must live in. First of all, Prigozhin would have never listened to what the CIA says, secondly if anything, such a chaos in a nuclear country would have made CIA uneasy.

Last edited 10 months ago by zee upītis
Terry M
Terry M
10 months ago
Reply to  zee upītis

Yes, the same demented morons who cannot control our Southern border can direct military ballets in far-off lands. Amazing talent, that.

Tim Lever
Tim Lever
10 months ago
Reply to  Terry M

Likewise Putin can’t control a random madman in his own country but supposedly had the POTUS as his secret agent for 4 years.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Terry M

I think you must be assuming senior CIA guys are raving lunatics, dangerous psychopaths – do you have any evidence for that?

Tim Lever
Tim Lever
10 months ago
Reply to  Terry M

Likewise Putin can’t control a random madman in his own country but supposedly had the POTUS as his secret agent for 4 years.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Terry M

I think you must be assuming senior CIA guys are raving lunatics, dangerous psychopaths – do you have any evidence for that?

Terry M
Terry M
10 months ago
Reply to  zee upītis

Yes, the same demented morons who cannot control our Southern border can direct military ballets in far-off lands. Amazing talent, that.

Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Scott Ritter. OK

zee upītis
zee upītis
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Gotta love those people, it’s always the West orchestrating everything. What a boring world you must live in. First of all, Prigozhin would have never listened to what the CIA says, secondly if anything, such a chaos in a nuclear country would have made CIA uneasy.

Last edited 10 months ago by zee upītis
martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Oooh, CIA !!!
The CIA must find it hilarious that it is deemed an all-powerful organization that can actually infiltrate various parts of the Russian military, to include getting the ear of Prigozhin himself.
Prigozhin’s talking points, that Putin’s invasion was unjustified is universally available throughout the internet, and any Russian soldier has learned it from talking to Ukrainian civilians.
It doesn’t take the CIA to say that the King–and Putin–have no clothes.

Peter Buchan
Peter Buchan
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

My my – just look at all the articles! Monday is not only (a bumper) Putin day at UnHerd, but sets a new standard for hand-wringing and prognostication.
Friction de guerre Mr Logan. The facts of what exactly happened, and why, will out eventually, of course. I certainly don’t have them. But I will offer this for UnHerd readers to ruminate on:
The world has seen a proliferation of PMCs. Many reasons, but one of them is that cultural shifts, globalisation and the internet have undermined the support of the general public to get caught up in wars and/or the military. A quick peek at how hard it’s become to recruit in the US, EU and elsewhere makes this clear. Russia is not the only user of PMCs. PMCs are unstable grenades in the hands that hold them. Before we look too smugly at what happened with Wagner, consider the drama and intrigue that surrounded, just for example, Erik Prince and Blackwater in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Prigozhin-grenade threatened to detonate – then did – but until I see hard evidence to the contrary it certainly seems, on the face of it, to have been more of a “family squabble” in a house under intense – external – pressure.
The SMO will continue (unfortunately but necessarily). Ukraine will be defeated and is unlikely to survive as a state when the dust settles. Most importantly: all of this could, and should, have been prevented.
Those smugly insisting that Russia had territorial ambitions for the Donbas need to explain the now-verified existence of a – signed! – draft Istanbul peace treaty in which the Donbas remained within Ukraine along with security guarantees from the West.
Ah, but for that slick Mr. Johnson…

Jeff Watkins
Jeff Watkins
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Buchan

Totally agree this is more of a family squabble. After all Prigozhin’s contract was being terminated on July 1st after he and his troops had given their all in taking Bachmut. I’m not suprised he was hopping mad with the MOD. As you say the defeat of Ukraine is inevitable.

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Buchan

I’m surprised to read that draft treaties are signed. By whom? Do they carry any real weight?

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

Draft treaties weren’t signed.
Another Kremlin False Flag.

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Of course they weren’t. A draft treaty would not be signed by heads of state.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

It must be there–because there is no evidence for it !

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

It must be there–because there is no evidence for it !

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Of course they weren’t. A draft treaty would not be signed by heads of state.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

Draft treaties weren’t signed.
Another Kremlin False Flag.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Buchan

Russia’ s problem is: 1) Russian ignorance of what happens when you use mercenaries 2) Their own dysfunctional society
If Russians had any knowledge of European history, they would know that mercenaries are impossible to control in the long run. they eventually caused the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and led to a total sack of Rome in 1527. That’s why no one uses them. Blackwater was an abberation, and no one was dumb enough in the West to give them heavy weapons.
The real problem is: it’s impossible for Russians to gain a real knowledge of history. In Russia, the only thing that matters is sucking up to the one above you who has total control over your life. They thus are excellent readers of human emotion (producing great writers, naturally) but have little if any knowledge of anything else, like strategy, tactics, economics, and world politics.
That’s why they die like flies in every war. They are a uniquely dysfunctional civilization.
Need to study them some to understand.

Jeff Watkins
Jeff Watkins
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Buchan

Totally agree this is more of a family squabble. After all Prigozhin’s contract was being terminated on July 1st after he and his troops had given their all in taking Bachmut. I’m not suprised he was hopping mad with the MOD. As you say the defeat of Ukraine is inevitable.

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Buchan

I’m surprised to read that draft treaties are signed. By whom? Do they carry any real weight?

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Buchan

Russia’ s problem is: 1) Russian ignorance of what happens when you use mercenaries 2) Their own dysfunctional society
If Russians had any knowledge of European history, they would know that mercenaries are impossible to control in the long run. they eventually caused the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and led to a total sack of Rome in 1527. That’s why no one uses them. Blackwater was an abberation, and no one was dumb enough in the West to give them heavy weapons.
The real problem is: it’s impossible for Russians to gain a real knowledge of history. In Russia, the only thing that matters is sucking up to the one above you who has total control over your life. They thus are excellent readers of human emotion (producing great writers, naturally) but have little if any knowledge of anything else, like strategy, tactics, economics, and world politics.
That’s why they die like flies in every war. They are a uniquely dysfunctional civilization.
Need to study them some to understand.

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Well the New York Times reported that: “U.S. spy agencies had indications days earlier that Mr. Prigozhin was planning something and worked to refine that material into a finished assessment, officials said.”
They also said: “While it is not clear exactly when the United States first learned of the plot, intelligence officials conducted briefings on Wednesday with administration and defense officials. On Thursday, as additional confirmation of the plot came in, intelligence officials informed a narrow group of congressional leaders, according to officials familiar with the briefings who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.”
So, according to the Times, they informed congress… Now, how can U.S. spy agencies know about this stuff, to the point that they are briefing select members of congress about it before it even happens?
Also, right as the Wagner events were coming to a close, Russia releases a statement mocking the CIA’s past black ops failures such as the Bay of Pigs.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

And the CIA’s prediction that Putin would invade–when you and everyone else said he wouldn’t–was another Bay of Pigs?

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

And the CIA’s prediction that Putin would invade–when you and everyone else said he wouldn’t–was another Bay of Pigs?

Peter Buchan
Peter Buchan
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

My my – just look at all the articles! Monday is not only (a bumper) Putin day at UnHerd, but sets a new standard for hand-wringing and prognostication.
Friction de guerre Mr Logan. The facts of what exactly happened, and why, will out eventually, of course. I certainly don’t have them. But I will offer this for UnHerd readers to ruminate on:
The world has seen a proliferation of PMCs. Many reasons, but one of them is that cultural shifts, globalisation and the internet have undermined the support of the general public to get caught up in wars and/or the military. A quick peek at how hard it’s become to recruit in the US, EU and elsewhere makes this clear. Russia is not the only user of PMCs. PMCs are unstable grenades in the hands that hold them. Before we look too smugly at what happened with Wagner, consider the drama and intrigue that surrounded, just for example, Erik Prince and Blackwater in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Prigozhin-grenade threatened to detonate – then did – but until I see hard evidence to the contrary it certainly seems, on the face of it, to have been more of a “family squabble” in a house under intense – external – pressure.
The SMO will continue (unfortunately but necessarily). Ukraine will be defeated and is unlikely to survive as a state when the dust settles. Most importantly: all of this could, and should, have been prevented.
Those smugly insisting that Russia had territorial ambitions for the Donbas need to explain the now-verified existence of a – signed! – draft Istanbul peace treaty in which the Donbas remained within Ukraine along with security guarantees from the West.
Ah, but for that slick Mr. Johnson…

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Well the New York Times reported that: “U.S. spy agencies had indications days earlier that Mr. Prigozhin was planning something and worked to refine that material into a finished assessment, officials said.”
They also said: “While it is not clear exactly when the United States first learned of the plot, intelligence officials conducted briefings on Wednesday with administration and defense officials. On Thursday, as additional confirmation of the plot came in, intelligence officials informed a narrow group of congressional leaders, according to officials familiar with the briefings who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.”
So, according to the Times, they informed congress… Now, how can U.S. spy agencies know about this stuff, to the point that they are briefing select members of congress about it before it even happens?
Also, right as the Wagner events were coming to a close, Russia releases a statement mocking the CIA’s past black ops failures such as the Bay of Pigs.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

The CIA would normally have a “burn after reading” end game, ie a mechanism to kill Prigozhin after he had done his treachery.. so you may well be right. However, I suspect a Russian ruse rather than a CIA coup.. but who knows? wheels within wheels eh?

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

It’s a whole lot more restful (and reliable) to accept the most likely explanation, than to postulate unprovable conspiracy theories. It’s actually the basis of all modern Western Thought.
It’s also why Marxism rots the mind.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

It’s a whole lot more restful (and reliable) to accept the most likely explanation, than to postulate unprovable conspiracy theories. It’s actually the basis of all modern Western Thought.
It’s also why Marxism rots the mind.

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
10 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

I am always surprised to see Western influence/money/intelligence, or at least a foreign state’s support sought behind events in Eastern/Central Europe. Why would Prigozhin trust the CIA or Ukraine’s security services?

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Yes, he was absolutely flipped. According to Scott Ritter the information is apparently that it was mainly the Brits and MI6. The CIA was apparently also involved. It appears that Prigozhin was also broadcasting Ukraine talking points about how the war was going as well, and there had been some Ukrainian infiltrators that had been captured in Moscow two days before who were supposed to be part of this, by creating chaos there. We also now know that before it even happened, US intelligence informed congress. So, everyone knew about it before it happened.
It appears that since the sanctions didn’t work, and the Spring offensive is not working that this is the last big hope. Destabilization from the inside, or at least with the optics of this, making nations think Russia is on shaky ground, and to abandon them. Here is my question. Are we to actually believe that Russian security services didn’t also know exactly what was going on? That this Prigozhin was not a closely monitored man? 

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Oooh, CIA !!!
The CIA must find it hilarious that it is deemed an all-powerful organization that can actually infiltrate various parts of the Russian military, to include getting the ear of Prigozhin himself.
Prigozhin’s talking points, that Putin’s invasion was unjustified is universally available throughout the internet, and any Russian soldier has learned it from talking to Ukrainian civilians.
It doesn’t take the CIA to say that the King–and Putin–have no clothes.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

The CIA would normally have a “burn after reading” end game, ie a mechanism to kill Prigozhin after he had done his treachery.. so you may well be right. However, I suspect a Russian ruse rather than a CIA coup.. but who knows? wheels within wheels eh?

J Bryant
J Bryant
10 months ago

The explanation I haven’t seen discussed in this article or elsewhere (perhaps because it is unrealistic) is that Prigozhin was encouraged by the CIA, and perhaps Ukraine’s security services, to attempt a rebellion that would supposedly trigger an uprising by anti-Putin forces in Russia and perhaps leave Prigozhin in charge.
From the perspective of the West, this type of uprising would succeed even if it failed because it would politically weaken Putin (as it appears to have done). I’m reminded of the drone attacks on the Kremlin that preceded the Ukrainian spring offensive: done to humiliate Putin and demoralize his supporters and military.
I suppose the counterargument to this possibility is who in their right mind would want Prigozhin in charge?
As the author notes, now we must all wait to see how the consequences of this farce play out.

George Knight
George Knight
10 months ago

The beaming photo of Prigozhin, after calling off his march on Moscow when he had reached Tula, surely says it all! He is a big winner in all of this. Putin, Shoigu and Gerasimov are big losers.
All that remains to be seen is what prizes have been showered on Prigozhin and what fate awaits the losers. And, most importantly, who will replace Putin, which is unlikely to be Prigozhin, and when will this happen. Quite a diversion for the Special Military Operation.

George Knight
George Knight
10 months ago

The beaming photo of Prigozhin, after calling off his march on Moscow when he had reached Tula, surely says it all! He is a big winner in all of this. Putin, Shoigu and Gerasimov are big losers.
All that remains to be seen is what prizes have been showered on Prigozhin and what fate awaits the losers. And, most importantly, who will replace Putin, which is unlikely to be Prigozhin, and when will this happen. Quite a diversion for the Special Military Operation.

Martin Johnson
Martin Johnson
10 months ago

A big article based on almost nothing

Martin Johnson
Martin Johnson
10 months ago

A big article based on almost nothing

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
10 months ago

As Russians used to say, “Better the Czar you know.”

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
10 months ago

As Russians used to say, “Better the Czar you know.”

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago

From the lack of support (and defence) of Putin during the putsch, right up to the time Prigozhin realized taking Moscow was impossible, we now see that only one Russian really supports this war:
V. V. Putin.
Everyone else, from Prigozhin to ordinary Russians, now knows the war is lost.
Moreover, Putin is desperate. He wouldn’t go out among the general population unless that was his last hope.
So, the only real question:
Who will remove Putin, either from office–or from this world?
There are people in the Kremlin deciding this as we post…

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago

From the lack of support (and defence) of Putin during the putsch, right up to the time Prigozhin realized taking Moscow was impossible, we now see that only one Russian really supports this war:
V. V. Putin.
Everyone else, from Prigozhin to ordinary Russians, now knows the war is lost.
Moreover, Putin is desperate. He wouldn’t go out among the general population unless that was his last hope.
So, the only real question:
Who will remove Putin, either from office–or from this world?
There are people in the Kremlin deciding this as we post…

Reginald Duquesnoy
Reginald Duquesnoy
10 months ago

one more victim of maskyrovka…little do they know, except their wishful thinking.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
10 months ago

I thought it was theatre, something showy to rationalize using weapons that shouldn’t be considered. Now, perhaps its just the off ramp for the cook. He got tired of the clowns garb?
Either way, I dont think it bodes well for people caught up in this war.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
10 months ago

I thought it was theatre, something showy to rationalize using weapons that shouldn’t be considered. Now, perhaps its just the off ramp for the cook. He got tired of the clowns garb?
Either way, I dont think it bodes well for people caught up in this war.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
10 months ago

I firmly believe that soon a time of peace will come.

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

This talk of peace is not an approved position. Remember, in Trans-Democracy you must take the positions that are consistant with what your governing masters approve of. All information that doesn’t support the approved agenda is false, and not to be spoken. 

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Yep, can’t wait to be liberated by Russia, that bastion of freedom

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

Yes, I get it… Putin bad, Zelensky good. Peace bad, war good. Two legs bad, four legs good.

zee upītis
zee upītis
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You seem to have forgotten about who invaded. Putin == war.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  zee upītis

.
and unprovoked as well right?, Eastward march of NATO, 14,000 deaths in Donbas and an 8 year wait for Minsk2 to be honoured ..entirely irrelevant right? You’re giving naivety a bad name!

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  zee upītis

There was a chance to end the conflict back early on with a total pull out of Russia, and Borris Johnson put an end to that.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  zee upītis

.
and unprovoked as well right?, Eastward march of NATO, 14,000 deaths in Donbas and an 8 year wait for Minsk2 to be honoured ..entirely irrelevant right? You’re giving naivety a bad name!

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  zee upītis

There was a chance to end the conflict back early on with a total pull out of Russia, and Borris Johnson put an end to that.

zee upītis
zee upītis
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You seem to have forgotten about who invaded. Putin == war.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

Given the choice I think I’d prefer to be “free” in Russia than “free” in Ukraine right now. Only the dead are completely free..

Last edited 10 months ago by Liam O'Mahony
Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

Yes, I get it… Putin bad, Zelensky good. Peace bad, war good. Two legs bad, four legs good.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

Given the choice I think I’d prefer to be “free” in Russia than “free” in Ukraine right now. Only the dead are completely free..

Last edited 10 months ago by Liam O'Mahony
martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

I take the position of what my lying eyes see.

Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Yep, can’t wait to be liberated by Russia, that bastion of freedom

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

I take the position of what my lying eyes see.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

And the time for Disney movies. Don’t forget the Disney movies.

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

This talk of peace is not an approved position. Remember, in Trans-Democracy you must take the positions that are consistant with what your governing masters approve of. All information that doesn’t support the approved agenda is false, and not to be spoken. 

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

And the time for Disney movies. Don’t forget the Disney movies.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
10 months ago

I firmly believe that soon a time of peace will come.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
10 months ago

No one in the West can possibly know at this stage, but perhaps the Wagner Group really is being moved to Belarus to “guard” the Russian nuclear weapons that were now there. 48 hours ago, the people who are having kittens over that, were wetting themselves with glee that Yevgeny Prigozhin, and thus whoever had paid him, were going to be getting their hands on the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. That is the thing with mercenaries. They belong to whoever pays them more. So a private company with what amounted to vast and expanding territories in Africa and elsewhere may indeed soon have de facto control of nuclear weapons as well.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Indeed.
We in the west use 6 Jan rioters to guard our nuclear facilities.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Indeed.
We in the west use 6 Jan rioters to guard our nuclear facilities.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
10 months ago

No one in the West can possibly know at this stage, but perhaps the Wagner Group really is being moved to Belarus to “guard” the Russian nuclear weapons that were now there. 48 hours ago, the people who are having kittens over that, were wetting themselves with glee that Yevgeny Prigozhin, and thus whoever had paid him, were going to be getting their hands on the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. That is the thing with mercenaries. They belong to whoever pays them more. So a private company with what amounted to vast and expanding territories in Africa and elsewhere may indeed soon have de facto control of nuclear weapons as well.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago

Isn’t this an ideal opportunity for Putin to withdraw and place the blame firmly on Prigo’s shoulders?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

…eh, no.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

…eh, no.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago

Isn’t this an ideal opportunity for Putin to withdraw and place the blame firmly on Prigo’s shoulders?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

I still think the whole affair could be Putin cooked up ruse to confuse the enemy.. or to get Prigozhin to Belarus with his 25,000 band soon to follow (as newly recruited regular Russian troops? ..immediately reverting to Prigozhin’s command upon arrival?).. in order to launch an attack on Kyev.. Putin is a wily old bear.. and so too is his friend Prigozhin.. feichimís.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Oooh, a RUSE!
Just like the one Putin used to besiege Kyiv and Kharkiv!
And the one where he evacuated Kherson!
It’s all a giant trap, just waiting to spring!
You DO know every losing side in a war thinks this kind of stuff?

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Oooh, a RUSE!
Just like the one Putin used to besiege Kyiv and Kharkiv!
And the one where he evacuated Kherson!
It’s all a giant trap, just waiting to spring!
You DO know every losing side in a war thinks this kind of stuff?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

I still think the whole affair could be Putin cooked up ruse to confuse the enemy.. or to get Prigozhin to Belarus with his 25,000 band soon to follow (as newly recruited regular Russian troops? ..immediately reverting to Prigozhin’s command upon arrival?).. in order to launch an attack on Kyev.. Putin is a wily old bear.. and so too is his friend Prigozhin.. feichimís.