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The perversion of lesbian envy Men have fetishised the erasure of women

Not blokes (Leemage/Corbis via Getty Images)

Not blokes (Leemage/Corbis via Getty Images)


June 26, 2023   4 mins

Of all the footnotes to Kathleen Stock’s recent trip to Oxford, perhaps the most unedifying was the sight of me and my friends — ranging in age from 30 to 70 — exclaiming “Phwoar!” in private chat groups. But as Joe Orton memorably said, “anything that is worth doing is worth doing in public”, so I came straight out with it in The Sun, calling her “the love child of Greta Garbo and Gandhi”. We knew she was clever, but walking to the Union, wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses and surrounded by security detail, she looked astonishingly cool — “Reservoir Terfs”, as one meme put it.

But enough of my mash note. Dr Stock is such a fascinating figure because she represents everything about being a lesbian that men — no matter how much they stamp their massive feet in their stripper heels — can never possess. It’s nothing to do with pornography and lipstick, the twin pillars of this strange new faith; she highlights the profound emptiness of their performative fantasy of femininity.

Where once society was defined by Penis Envy, Lesbian Envy is today’s driving force. So much performative thespian-lesbianism has taken place in popular culture that you’d think every woman was at it, but if we regard the history of lesbianism, most of it has gone on in secret.

Many lesbians point out that, historically, there has been little overlap between the problems and pleasures of lesbians and homosexual men. Men are reviled for it in the Scriptures and have had laws passed against them, while women are more likely to simply be ignored, culminating in Queen’s Victoria’s refusal to believe that lesbianism existed. Yet, at the same time, homosexuals had great power in the Greek and Roman empires, while lesbians certainly didn’t. While Oscar Wilde could be a tragic martyr to The Love That Dare Not Speak Its Name, lesbianism has long been easy to reduce to titillation and entertainment. If you admire the female form, the onanist logic goes, why not admire it times-two? And, unlike with straight porn, there won’t be any well-hung male hanging around to make you feel bad about yourself.

This can lead a certain type of man to feel that, even for them, lesbianism can be a little something on the side, even something which adds to their own appeal. In the Nineties, I had an idea for a Bateman-style cartoon that portrayed a man being shunned by his contemporaries: The Man Whose Wife Wouldn’t Do Girl-On-Girl. It was around this time, during my second marriage, when I fell for a woman and my second husband gave me “permission” to see her, even doing a humorous routine for his friends: “Lesbians make such fascinating wives!” He wasn’t laughing when I left him for her, whereupon I uttered the classic line to the Evening Standard gossip column: “Miss Raven and I are not lesbians — we are simply in love.”

I wasn’t being super-straight or shy in saying this. Rather, I was aware that being the capricious creature I am, I didn’t feel morally worthy of bearing a name which brave women had suffered for, simply because I was following a whim which I was pretty sure I wouldn’t be indulging in for long. (Sure enough, I soon ran off with her brother.) Today, by contrast, straight people stampede to call themselves queer, so prevalent is the idea that “heterosexual equals bad” and “homosexual equals good”. There are so many young women holding up their baby boys on social media and pronouncing them “Gay!” that I’ve often thought that if a certain sort of young woman could be guaranteed to have a gay baby, the moribund birthrate of the West would shoot up.

But lesbianism has been ditched by those with the most claim to it and who could be most inspired by its history — a dirty word among young girls who prefer to be acceptably queer or trans. As the young American pop and reality TV star JoJo Siwa said last year: “I don’t like the word [lesbian] itself. It’s just like a lot. At the end of the day, that’s what I am… but it’s like the word moist. It’s just like
 ugh!”

Meanwhile, contemporary gender activists do their very best to make lesbianism sound not “sexy fun”, as it was from Tallulah to Tatu, but just another workaday drudgery of dealing with the worst sort of pervy, grope men. As no less than John Hopkins University this month noted in its online glossary of LGTBQ terms, a “lesbian” is someone who is a “non-man attracted to non-men”.

Amid this erasure of women from lesbianism, there was something particularly lovely — and not just for lechers — about the case of the lesbian beauty queens Miss Argentina Mariana Varela and Miss Puerto Rico Fabiola Valentin who met at the Miss Grand International pageant in 2020 and married last year; supernaturally beautiful, both had surveyed the men of the entire planet and found them inadequate. And yes, of course it’s a proper pay-day for capitalism when two brides decide to outdo each other in the grandeur of their marital meringues — but it’s also gorgeous to see femininity unbound.

It confirmed that modern lesbianism, far from being the furtive trauma of the past, has the potential to be a hen-night that never ends, avoiding that morning-after let-down when one of the giddy girls is given away by one sober suit to another and must now knuckle down to the humdrum habits of adult life. Even when lesbianism begins as little more than a cheap thrill or a style tip, it has the power to bring down worthless heterosexual unions, which can only be a relief all round. All that disposable income and free time can’t help but give a happy couple a head start when it comes to fun — and, of course, the unshakeable advantage of doing something that society doesn’t really approve of, which has a way of keeping people young like nothing else. Which is all the more reason why it must be guarded from incursion from the male sex. When I was a youngster, the sure sign of a creepy man was that he would refer to himself as a lesbian trapped in a man’s body; it still is, only this time they don’t slink away nursing their semi when you laugh at them, but call you a fascist.

So, back to my adored Doc Stock, hated so often not for her words but because she shows what a woman is; not the way you dress, or sit, or present. It can’t be bought. A woman is whatever a woman wants to be — and what a man cannot be. And, most of all, what a man cannot be is a lesbian.


Julie Burchill is a journalist, playwright and author of Welcome to the Woke Trials, available now. Her latest play, Awful People, co-written with Daniel Raven, comes to Brighton Pier in September 2023.

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Aldo Maccione
Aldo Maccione
1 year ago

“both had surveyed the men of the entire planet and found them inadequate”
why the anti-man bashing, Julie ? Did these two women try to be heterosexual, and had to “convert” to lesbianism by “default” ? i thought not.
Please don’t mix your issues. We definitely agree with your point about lesbianism being “reclaimed” by trans, but you don’t need to score a few points against normal males, who are as bemused as you are by the current fads.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aldo Maccione
Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

Seriously. It is upper class white women who are mostly driving this madness. Why don’t you complain about them. Heterosexual men only care about this nonsense when it impacts their children.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

It’s typical.
Democrats are 70% in favour of this nonsense, if I recall, and within that group college educated upper class white women, I suspect, are 80-90% in support.

Ironically, the likes of this author and those women have lots in common.
In particular, a very common supremacist attitude that’s not backed up by anything substantial – if not for “heterosexual men” they wouldn’t have electricity, technology, infrastructure, basic food supplies, buildings….

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Surely nobody “wants” to be a lesbian. A person either is one or isn’t one.
If you are, then you are and no amount of wishing will change it.
If you’re not, then you are not, and no amount of wishing will make it happen.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Shaw
Roddy Campbell
Roddy Campbell
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

A bit like being a woman, then.

Paul Boire
Paul Boire
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

There is no such thing. These are behaviors. Developmental disorders.

Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

Sigmund Freud’s “polymorphous perversity” as a developmental stage is now rather out of date. He neglected to investigate the cultural ubiquity of homosexuality throughout history.

Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

Sigmund Freud’s “polymorphous perversity” as a developmental stage is now rather out of date. He neglected to investigate the cultural ubiquity of homosexuality throughout history.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Not sure girls can’t enjoy playful sex with other girls without being exclusively lesbian

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Perhaps bi-sexual?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Perhaps bi-sexual?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Well said. I’ve often thought it might be nice to be bi-sexual. As Woody Allen said “you stand a better chance of a date on a Saturday night”.

Roddy Campbell
Roddy Campbell
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

A bit like being a woman, then.

Paul Boire
Paul Boire
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

There is no such thing. These are behaviors. Developmental disorders.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Not sure girls can’t enjoy playful sex with other girls without being exclusively lesbian

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Well said. I’ve often thought it might be nice to be bi-sexual. As Woody Allen said “you stand a better chance of a date on a Saturday night”.

Paul Boire
Paul Boire
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

They wouldn’t exist. Its modern pagan narcissism. When the person is ruled by the will , the appetitive, as Plato saw it, and not by reason, one is dealing with narcissistic hedonism. The west is a cult predicated upon this. And of course it cannot be reasoned with.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

But having a p***s is like being permanently saddled with a two year old child . So of course it cannot be reasoned with

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

But having a p***s is like being permanently saddled with a two year old child . So of course it cannot be reasoned with

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I’ll not bother to waste any strength on this. I know what I believe and it’s not that.

Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Julie Birchill’s origins are working class.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

‘if not for “heterosexual men” they wouldn’t have electricity, technology, infrastructure, basic food supplies, buildings
.’
… because heterosexual men have, historically, banned women from positions in which they could produce such ‘goods’, and from the education that would allow them to research or design them. This began to change in the 20th century but girls’ education and cultural expectations of women have only begun to catch up and are constantly being suppressed, overtly in Islamic countries but more insidiously in supposedly egalitarian cultures. The new line of attack, as typified by Samir Iker, is the dismissal of women or, worse, as Julie Burchill points out, attempts to erase completely what a ‘woman’ is, so as to allow their former territory to be colonised by – men.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Well said.

Victoria Cooper
Victoria Cooper
11 months ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Could not produce food supplies? Nonsense. However, given the rest, maybe women would not have trashed the planet.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Well said.

Victoria Cooper
Victoria Cooper
11 months ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Could not produce food supplies? Nonsense. However, given the rest, maybe women would not have trashed the planet.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

You “suspect” that college educated, upper class, white women are 80-90% in support of nonsense. Your suspicions don’t make it so.

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Surely nobody “wants” to be a lesbian. A person either is one or isn’t one.
If you are, then you are and no amount of wishing will change it.
If you’re not, then you are not, and no amount of wishing will make it happen.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Shaw
Paul Boire
Paul Boire
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

They wouldn’t exist. Its modern pagan narcissism. When the person is ruled by the will , the appetitive, as Plato saw it, and not by reason, one is dealing with narcissistic hedonism. The west is a cult predicated upon this. And of course it cannot be reasoned with.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I’ll not bother to waste any strength on this. I know what I believe and it’s not that.

Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Julie Birchill’s origins are working class.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

‘if not for “heterosexual men” they wouldn’t have electricity, technology, infrastructure, basic food supplies, buildings
.’
… because heterosexual men have, historically, banned women from positions in which they could produce such ‘goods’, and from the education that would allow them to research or design them. This began to change in the 20th century but girls’ education and cultural expectations of women have only begun to catch up and are constantly being suppressed, overtly in Islamic countries but more insidiously in supposedly egalitarian cultures. The new line of attack, as typified by Samir Iker, is the dismissal of women or, worse, as Julie Burchill points out, attempts to erase completely what a ‘woman’ is, so as to allow their former territory to be colonised by – men.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

You “suspect” that college educated, upper class, white women are 80-90% in support of nonsense. Your suspicions don’t make it so.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Most upper class white woman are about as exciting a prospect to men as lesbians… Except the hunting and horsey ones…

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

It’s typical.
Democrats are 70% in favour of this nonsense, if I recall, and within that group college educated upper class white women, I suspect, are 80-90% in support.

Ironically, the likes of this author and those women have lots in common.
In particular, a very common supremacist attitude that’s not backed up by anything substantial – if not for “heterosexual men” they wouldn’t have electricity, technology, infrastructure, basic food supplies, buildings….

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Most upper class white woman are about as exciting a prospect to men as lesbians… Except the hunting and horsey ones…

Aldo Maccione
Aldo Maccione
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

*as bemused as you are
sorry

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

Don’t be sorry. You can also edit the original comment yourself (*and add a note about the edit or emendation if you like).

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

My mistake, Aldo Maccione. I see this is sometimes not the case, lately anyway.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

My mistake, Aldo Maccione. I see this is sometimes not the case, lately anyway.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

Don’t be sorry. You can also edit the original comment yourself (*and add a note about the edit or emendation if you like).

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

I think you should bear in mind that writing things to deliberately wind people up has been core to Julie’s method since she was seventeen and writing in the NME.

Aldo Maccione
Aldo Maccione
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

I agree, I notice the method, but it’s cheap and tired. If she wants to advance her point of view, she needs to stop gratuitously and pointlessly antagonizing her fortuitous allies.
Choose your fights and all that.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

But would anyone be commenting as much as they do on her articles without the “wind up” element”?

Of course it’s deliberate, and consistent in her writing. The fulminations they provoke are themselves quite amusing/annoying, depending on preference.

It’s a style which works for her – she gets published, so i’d say she chooses her fights with precision.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

She isn’t advancing a “point of view”, at least not on this occasion. She is just giving her reaction to the world she sees sround her. And judging by the po-faced responses here then my sympathies are with her.
When did men become so insecure, that they couldn’t take some ribbing? No wonder they can’t find girlfriends.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Sharon Overy
Sharon Overy
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

She’s spent 40 or 50 years blaming ‘men’ for …. well, everything. Not specific wrongdoers, mind, because she’s a collectivist. If one man does wrong, all 4 billion must pay!

Women, on the other hand, are in Julie’s world, devoid of agency, are constant and universal victims who should be exempt from the consequences of any bad actions or poor choices. She’s a feminist caricature.

We know her of old, and each new article she writes will inevitably ruin any salient point she has by her insanity rearing its head somewhere.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Sharon Overy

I do not recognise her in your description. Are you confusing her with someone else?

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Doesn’t know her Bindel from her Burchill!

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew D

That’s what I wondered.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew D

That’s what I wondered.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Doesn’t know her Bindel from her Burchill!

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Sharon Overy

I do not recognise her in your description. Are you confusing her with someone else?

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Firstly, she isn’t “ribbing”. She is just indulging in her usual invective.
If you weren’t so humour less, you might have been able to tell the difference.
Still, we can allow for your deficiencies.

Secondly, you are right. Neither me nor any of my male friends can find girlfriends. Slogging hard to pay for our families, spending whatever time’s left on my young girl – teaching, school runs, taking her to those parks and museums and movies meant for 3 year olds, because who else will? – doesn’t really help much in that regard.
But the sheer ingratitude and delusion, as you safely whine about “men” while we built and maintain the modern world that lets you pretend to be “strong women”….that’s fine, too, can’t expect anything better.

But remember the small kid at home, the reason me and fathers like me are running ourselves into the ground?
When a tiny number of awful men try to hurt her, barge into girl’s sports, or their toilets, or expose themselves…
if left to us, the problem would end very soon.
But no, because these jokers are legally protected, and also have the support of “progressive” media, educators, governments.

That’s you lot – upper class women – who are responsible. Your delusions of “equality”, your resentment of biology….
And even now, you are incapable of taking responsibility, facing reality, and continue to whine about “men” and “misogyny” – as this article shows.

That’s why we are “po faced”. Nothing to do with your imaginary “ribbing”.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I wonder what I, or Julie, have done to warrant your over the top reaction, Samir.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Don’t be so “insecure”, dear.
And don’t worry about others reactions. Just a hint or you, or Julie – start taking responsibility for what you have done, or for your own lives, instead of droning on about “men”. It might be one small step for men-kind, but a giant one for self proclaimed perma-victims.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

You really need to calm down.

Helen Hughes
Helen Hughes
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Just wondering if you could find a way of saying what you want to without being patronising? Because your stye kind of just confirms feminists in their opinions rather than contributing to altering the behaviour you find so difficult.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

But on the contrary as I mentiond above you sound like the victim.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

You really need to calm down.

Helen Hughes
Helen Hughes
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Just wondering if you could find a way of saying what you want to without being patronising? Because your stye kind of just confirms feminists in their opinions rather than contributing to altering the behaviour you find so difficult.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

But on the contrary as I mentiond above you sound like the victim.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Don’t be so “insecure”, dear.
And don’t worry about others reactions. Just a hint or you, or Julie – start taking responsibility for what you have done, or for your own lives, instead of droning on about “men”. It might be one small step for men-kind, but a giant one for self proclaimed perma-victims.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Paul Boire
Paul Boire
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Well said Samir.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

It really wasn’t very well said.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

It really wasn’t very well said.

Northern Observer
Northern Observer
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Samir nails it. Political Lesbianism amounts to a delusional luxury belief system that rests on the hard work and suffering of those it disdains or ignores. Maybe someday there will be a life affirming Sappho movement but until then we will be forced to indulge this toxic nihilism.

Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Julie Birchill’s origins are working class. As a writer she sets out to annoy and offend: why I stopped reading her stuff in The Observer (or maybe it was The Guardian) decades ago. Much better to ignore her.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Oh dear, you sure sound victimized. Not much joy in your life?

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I wonder what I, or Julie, have done to warrant your over the top reaction, Samir.

Paul Boire
Paul Boire
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Well said Samir.

Northern Observer
Northern Observer
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Samir nails it. Political Lesbianism amounts to a delusional luxury belief system that rests on the hard work and suffering of those it disdains or ignores. Maybe someday there will be a life affirming Sappho movement but until then we will be forced to indulge this toxic nihilism.

Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Julie Birchill’s origins are working class. As a writer she sets out to annoy and offend: why I stopped reading her stuff in The Observer (or maybe it was The Guardian) decades ago. Much better to ignore her.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Oh dear, you sure sound victimized. Not much joy in your life?

Kelly Madden
Kelly Madden
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

“Ribbing”? It’s been WAR since the “like a fish needs a bicycle“ posture and when it comes to the brutish exercise of power, women lose. Smart, rich, white girls will do ok. The average woman, not so much.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Exactly. Being able to laugh at oneself is a fine thing, essential, in fact.

Sharon Overy
Sharon Overy
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

She’s spent 40 or 50 years blaming ‘men’ for …. well, everything. Not specific wrongdoers, mind, because she’s a collectivist. If one man does wrong, all 4 billion must pay!

Women, on the other hand, are in Julie’s world, devoid of agency, are constant and universal victims who should be exempt from the consequences of any bad actions or poor choices. She’s a feminist caricature.

We know her of old, and each new article she writes will inevitably ruin any salient point she has by her insanity rearing its head somewhere.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Firstly, she isn’t “ribbing”. She is just indulging in her usual invective.
If you weren’t so humour less, you might have been able to tell the difference.
Still, we can allow for your deficiencies.

Secondly, you are right. Neither me nor any of my male friends can find girlfriends. Slogging hard to pay for our families, spending whatever time’s left on my young girl – teaching, school runs, taking her to those parks and museums and movies meant for 3 year olds, because who else will? – doesn’t really help much in that regard.
But the sheer ingratitude and delusion, as you safely whine about “men” while we built and maintain the modern world that lets you pretend to be “strong women”….that’s fine, too, can’t expect anything better.

But remember the small kid at home, the reason me and fathers like me are running ourselves into the ground?
When a tiny number of awful men try to hurt her, barge into girl’s sports, or their toilets, or expose themselves…
if left to us, the problem would end very soon.
But no, because these jokers are legally protected, and also have the support of “progressive” media, educators, governments.

That’s you lot – upper class women – who are responsible. Your delusions of “equality”, your resentment of biology….
And even now, you are incapable of taking responsibility, facing reality, and continue to whine about “men” and “misogyny” – as this article shows.

That’s why we are “po faced”. Nothing to do with your imaginary “ribbing”.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Kelly Madden
Kelly Madden
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

“Ribbing”? It’s been WAR since the “like a fish needs a bicycle“ posture and when it comes to the brutish exercise of power, women lose. Smart, rich, white girls will do ok. The average woman, not so much.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Exactly. Being able to laugh at oneself is a fine thing, essential, in fact.

Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

Birchill also specialises in in trying to offend people. If you take offence, she’s won (from her point of view).

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

But would anyone be commenting as much as they do on her articles without the “wind up” element”?

Of course it’s deliberate, and consistent in her writing. The fulminations they provoke are themselves quite amusing/annoying, depending on preference.

It’s a style which works for her – she gets published, so i’d say she chooses her fights with precision.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

She isn’t advancing a “point of view”, at least not on this occasion. She is just giving her reaction to the world she sees sround her. And judging by the po-faced responses here then my sympathies are with her.
When did men become so insecure, that they couldn’t take some ribbing? No wonder they can’t find girlfriends.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Gabriel Mills
Gabriel Mills
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

Birchill also specialises in in trying to offend people. If you take offence, she’s won (from her point of view).

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

And she’s good at it: She winds up all the right people.

Andrew H
Andrew H
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Indeed. Classic NME modus operandi. Snide, cowardly backstabbing and building bands up only to knock them down for the sake of it. Their journalists rarely if ever had the courage to criticise bands directly in interviews though – they’d fawn over them and then give them a kicking in reviews. Sounds was always a far superior publication and I for one was delighted when the NME finally bit the dust.

Brian H
Brian H
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

One of the first things she ever wrote for the NME, maybe the very first, was a lesbian love note to Patti Smith in the form of a live show review. It was magnificent.

Last edited 1 year ago by Brian H
Aldo Maccione
Aldo Maccione
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

I agree, I notice the method, but it’s cheap and tired. If she wants to advance her point of view, she needs to stop gratuitously and pointlessly antagonizing her fortuitous allies.
Choose your fights and all that.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

And she’s good at it: She winds up all the right people.

Andrew H
Andrew H
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Indeed. Classic NME modus operandi. Snide, cowardly backstabbing and building bands up only to knock them down for the sake of it. Their journalists rarely if ever had the courage to criticise bands directly in interviews though – they’d fawn over them and then give them a kicking in reviews. Sounds was always a far superior publication and I for one was delighted when the NME finally bit the dust.

Brian H
Brian H
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

One of the first things she ever wrote for the NME, maybe the very first, was a lesbian love note to Patti Smith in the form of a live show review. It was magnificent.

Last edited 1 year ago by Brian H
Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

Truth is lots of girls will kiss another girl to tantalise a man .Even Julie did this big time to capture her current husband , who is her former girlfriend’s brother .

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

Seriously. It is upper class white women who are mostly driving this madness. Why don’t you complain about them. Heterosexual men only care about this nonsense when it impacts their children.

Aldo Maccione
Aldo Maccione
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

*as bemused as you are
sorry

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

I think you should bear in mind that writing things to deliberately wind people up has been core to Julie’s method since she was seventeen and writing in the NME.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Aldo Maccione

Truth is lots of girls will kiss another girl to tantalise a man .Even Julie did this big time to capture her current husband , who is her former girlfriend’s brother .

Aldo Maccione
Aldo Maccione
1 year ago

“both had surveyed the men of the entire planet and found them inadequate”
why the anti-man bashing, Julie ? Did these two women try to be heterosexual, and had to “convert” to lesbianism by “default” ? i thought not.
Please don’t mix your issues. We definitely agree with your point about lesbianism being “reclaimed” by trans, but you don’t need to score a few points against normal males, who are as bemused as you are by the current fads.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aldo Maccione
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

“And, most of all, what a man cannot be is a lesbian.”
It’s true. No matter how hard I try, I can’t quite make it.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Mark V
Mark V
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

They ain’t buying what we’re selling

Kayla Marx
Kayla Marx
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Hard for me to understand why most autogynephilic men who proceed to the transition phase still still want female partners, but it’s apparently so. (If they want to usurp the female experience of sex, wouldn’t a male partner make more sense?) The problem is … most straight women lose sexual interest in a man when he lets them know that his chief erotic interest is himself. These newly minted women seem to understand the problem, but seem to think that lesbians will be different in that respect, but I don’t really think they are. Some trans-identified men do find their lesbians, but many are frustrated getting past what they call “the cotton ceiling.” So they proceed to instruct lesbians that they owe trans women a chance to make it in their beds. Can’t see the logic of that either, but I do see the solution. If “trans women are women” and trans women are lesbians, then they should be happy to sleep with each other.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Kayla Marx

OMG my head is spinning! I suspect that transwomen who have transitioned would ideally like to have sex with straight men, but I also suspect that ‘aint gonna happen unless the straight man doesn’t know. That can happen. April Ashley was the first man to fully transition, and I met a man who had sex with her and didn’t know and couldn’t tell the difference. I also knew a man who liked men dressed as women who hadn’t transitioned. That’s the extent of my experience, but it sure seems that men are wierd.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Kayla Marx

OMG my head is spinning! I suspect that transwomen who have transitioned would ideally like to have sex with straight men, but I also suspect that ‘aint gonna happen unless the straight man doesn’t know. That can happen. April Ashley was the first man to fully transition, and I met a man who had sex with her and didn’t know and couldn’t tell the difference. I also knew a man who liked men dressed as women who hadn’t transitioned. That’s the extent of my experience, but it sure seems that men are wierd.

Mark V
Mark V
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

They ain’t buying what we’re selling

Kayla Marx
Kayla Marx
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Hard for me to understand why most autogynephilic men who proceed to the transition phase still still want female partners, but it’s apparently so. (If they want to usurp the female experience of sex, wouldn’t a male partner make more sense?) The problem is … most straight women lose sexual interest in a man when he lets them know that his chief erotic interest is himself. These newly minted women seem to understand the problem, but seem to think that lesbians will be different in that respect, but I don’t really think they are. Some trans-identified men do find their lesbians, but many are frustrated getting past what they call “the cotton ceiling.” So they proceed to instruct lesbians that they owe trans women a chance to make it in their beds. Can’t see the logic of that either, but I do see the solution. If “trans women are women” and trans women are lesbians, then they should be happy to sleep with each other.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

“And, most of all, what a man cannot be is a lesbian.”
It’s true. No matter how hard I try, I can’t quite make it.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

Of course men can be lesbians … And kangaroos. Or wildebeest. You haven’t been paying attention.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I remember one of my old employers offered employees the option to get Macs.
Obviously a fair few opted for the slick looking MacBook instead of boring laptops.
And then promptly asked IT to install a Windows partition (if I recall the term correctly) .

For some reason, reminded of those folk when I read a out “lesbian” trans “women”

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

You make no sense, Samir.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

You make no sense, Samir.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I remember one of my old employers offered employees the option to get Macs.
Obviously a fair few opted for the slick looking MacBook instead of boring laptops.
And then promptly asked IT to install a Windows partition (if I recall the term correctly) .

For some reason, reminded of those folk when I read a out “lesbian” trans “women”

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

Of course men can be lesbians … And kangaroos. Or wildebeest. You haven’t been paying attention.

Charles Jenkin
Charles Jenkin
1 year ago

Great piece! Entirely appropriate anger against heterosexual men who diminish or fetishize lesbian love and sex, and against all the gay men who have abandoned their support for lesbians in favor of a trans ideology that diminishes all women by refusing to acknowledge the difference between trans and biological women. The latter is a particularly bitter and egregious betrayal, and represents an extraordinary spasm of patriarchal behavior that needs to be called out. Respect!

Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Jenkin

Your reply is indeed interesting
Not exactly convincing, but the nonetheless interesting.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Jenkin

Well said.

Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Jenkin

Your reply is indeed interesting
Not exactly convincing, but the nonetheless interesting.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Jenkin

Well said.

Charles Jenkin
Charles Jenkin
1 year ago

Great piece! Entirely appropriate anger against heterosexual men who diminish or fetishize lesbian love and sex, and against all the gay men who have abandoned their support for lesbians in favor of a trans ideology that diminishes all women by refusing to acknowledge the difference between trans and biological women. The latter is a particularly bitter and egregious betrayal, and represents an extraordinary spasm of patriarchal behavior that needs to be called out. Respect!

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

Perhaps Doctor Stock also highlights the profound emptiness of Julie Burchill’s performative fantasy of masculinity.

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

Perhaps Doctor Stock also highlights the profound emptiness of Julie Burchill’s performative fantasy of masculinity.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago

Why , Julie , do so many lesbians adopt butch / femme roles in their coupledom ? Is it that they feel they need to ape traditional heterosexual role models, whereby the Butch one becomes an ersatz bloke and the other is his lady wife ?

Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Not necessarily, I am pretty butch and I am hetereosexual.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Nikki Hayes

Pretty butch ! Best type of butch to be , especially for a heterosexual female .Lots of gym bunnies end up pretty butch , it’s quite usual these days .

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Perhaps Nikki is pretty and butch.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

That’s what I meant

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

That’s what I meant

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Perhaps Nikki is pretty and butch.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nikki Hayes

The exception that proves the rule?

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Nikki Hayes

Pretty butch ! Best type of butch to be , especially for a heterosexual female .Lots of gym bunnies end up pretty butch , it’s quite usual these days .

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nikki Hayes

The exception that proves the rule?

Nuria Haering
Nuria Haering
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Weird, I don’t know any lesbian couples that conform to the dynamic you describe and I know quite a few.

And if they seem like they do, is it just through the eyes of an outsider, who thinks short hair and button shirts = male and long hair and lipstick= female?

You’re also putting forth quite a reductive view of hetero relationships. I don’t think that these days we can assume that traditional roles are adhered to, or that “male” responsibilities always sit with the man or vice versa.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nuria Haering
Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Nuria Haering

Well the Butch / Femme thing was referenced by Julie Bindel on here in an article in which she described how she came out , and she spoke approvingly as being part of her own lesbian experience . I thought it sounded a bit old fashioned.
Masculinity as opposed to femininity is still a part of most heterosexual pairings ,and more or less define them . You seem a bit defensive about the lesbian need to simulate such ‘marriages’

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Perhaps because ‘butch’ lesbians don’t reject their sex, but the gender role that society deems must go with it? Many homosexual men make the same distinction and would be happy being ‘feminine’ homosexual men.
Society makes that so difficult that many impressionable children believe ‘transitioning’ and ‘becoming’ members of the opposite sex would make them more acceptable than failing to conform to the prescribed gender roles. If they do go down the hormonal/surgical ‘sex change’ route, though, some changes are irreversible but the ‘change’ is never cell deep.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Agree , but why don’t you see more feminine pairs of lesbians , or ‘butch’ pairs of lesbians . It’s as though they unconsciously accept masculine / feminine as defining coupledom.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Good point.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Good point.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

What?!

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Agree , but why don’t you see more feminine pairs of lesbians , or ‘butch’ pairs of lesbians . It’s as though they unconsciously accept masculine / feminine as defining coupledom.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

What?!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

What?!

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Perhaps because ‘butch’ lesbians don’t reject their sex, but the gender role that society deems must go with it? Many homosexual men make the same distinction and would be happy being ‘feminine’ homosexual men.
Society makes that so difficult that many impressionable children believe ‘transitioning’ and ‘becoming’ members of the opposite sex would make them more acceptable than failing to conform to the prescribed gender roles. If they do go down the hormonal/surgical ‘sex change’ route, though, some changes are irreversible but the ‘change’ is never cell deep.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

What?!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nuria Haering

“In olden days a glimpse of stocking was looked on as something shocking but heaven knows, now anything goes”

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Nuria Haering

Well the Butch / Femme thing was referenced by Julie Bindel on here in an article in which she described how she came out , and she spoke approvingly as being part of her own lesbian experience . I thought it sounded a bit old fashioned.
Masculinity as opposed to femininity is still a part of most heterosexual pairings ,and more or less define them . You seem a bit defensive about the lesbian need to simulate such ‘marriages’

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nuria Haering

“In olden days a glimpse of stocking was looked on as something shocking but heaven knows, now anything goes”

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

The irony is they seem to be the ones who hate men, yet want to be like them. The same goes for men who hate women but want to be one.Perhaps it’s the old thing of you hate what you desire.

Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Not necessarily, I am pretty butch and I am hetereosexual.

Nuria Haering
Nuria Haering
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Weird, I don’t know any lesbian couples that conform to the dynamic you describe and I know quite a few.

And if they seem like they do, is it just through the eyes of an outsider, who thinks short hair and button shirts = male and long hair and lipstick= female?

You’re also putting forth quite a reductive view of hetero relationships. I don’t think that these days we can assume that traditional roles are adhered to, or that “male” responsibilities always sit with the man or vice versa.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nuria Haering
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

The irony is they seem to be the ones who hate men, yet want to be like them. The same goes for men who hate women but want to be one.Perhaps it’s the old thing of you hate what you desire.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago

Why , Julie , do so many lesbians adopt butch / femme roles in their coupledom ? Is it that they feel they need to ape traditional heterosexual role models, whereby the Butch one becomes an ersatz bloke and the other is his lady wife ?

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago

In the painting surely it’s a realist scene . The maid has had to return home to look after her sick mother . The two women are merely trying to keep themselves warm in an unheated house .Honestly

Kathy Hix
Kathy Hix
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Maybe just pull up the blanket?

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Kathy Hix

It’s an haute bourgeoise household . The blanket is probably in the airing cupboard , but where the hell is that ?

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Kathy Hix

It’s an haute bourgeoise household . The blanket is probably in the airing cupboard , but where the hell is that ?

Kathy Hix
Kathy Hix
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Maybe just pull up the blanket?

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago

In the painting surely it’s a realist scene . The maid has had to return home to look after her sick mother . The two women are merely trying to keep themselves warm in an unheated house .Honestly

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago

This sort of thing seems to me to be an exercise in a certain kind of projection. Discrimination may demonise you, but it also makes you special and different. Now nobody stigmatises homosexuals you’re just a regular joe and who wants to be a regular joe?! So let’s manufacture some faux oppression to give ourselves something to feel special about
.

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago

This sort of thing seems to me to be an exercise in a certain kind of projection. Discrimination may demonise you, but it also makes you special and different. Now nobody stigmatises homosexuals you’re just a regular joe and who wants to be a regular joe?! So let’s manufacture some faux oppression to give ourselves something to feel special about
.

Ian 0
Ian 0
1 year ago

He wasnt laughing when I left him.

Too busy counting his lucky stars maybe ?

Noel Kelly
Noel Kelly
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian 0

I’ll admit, I started to lose interest in this article after that line. It does sound like he failed to dodge the bullet the first time but at least survived. Meanwhile, I find it difficult to care about this woman’s first world problems when she casually trivialises her marriage in such a way.

Paul Boire
Paul Boire
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Kelly

She hasn’t the least notion of what marriage even is.

Paul Boire
Paul Boire
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Kelly

She hasn’t the least notion of what marriage even is.

Noel Kelly
Noel Kelly
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian 0

I’ll admit, I started to lose interest in this article after that line. It does sound like he failed to dodge the bullet the first time but at least survived. Meanwhile, I find it difficult to care about this woman’s first world problems when she casually trivialises her marriage in such a way.

Ian 0
Ian 0
1 year ago

He wasnt laughing when I left him.

Too busy counting his lucky stars maybe ?

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
1 year ago

And, most of all, what a man cannot be is a lesbian.

Can’t we get special suits, though, like the furries?

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
1 year ago

And, most of all, what a man cannot be is a lesbian.

Can’t we get special suits, though, like the furries?

Ben Jones
Ben Jones
1 year ago

I am a Julie Burchill fan, but not today. This is ‘Polly Filler’ level stuff, navel-gazing, First World Problem nothingness. Julie, you can write usually write about anything and make it entertaining, but this is the bottom of the culture war barrel.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Jones

But worth it for the picture of the two mid-Victorian sisters trying to get some sleep on a very hot night .(I have changed my mind about the iconography )

Last edited 1 year ago by Alan Osband
Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Jones

But worth it for the picture of the two mid-Victorian sisters trying to get some sleep on a very hot night .(I have changed my mind about the iconography )

Last edited 1 year ago by Alan Osband
Ben Jones
Ben Jones
1 year ago

I am a Julie Burchill fan, but not today. This is ‘Polly Filler’ level stuff, navel-gazing, First World Problem nothingness. Julie, you can write usually write about anything and make it entertaining, but this is the bottom of the culture war barrel.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago

Oh god. What next; Tony Parsons?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

he writes great cop thrillers!

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago

No, he really doesn’t. He’s read James Lee Burke and thought “I can do that!”

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago

No, he really doesn’t. He’s read James Lee Burke and thought “I can do that!”

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

he writes great cop thrillers!

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago

Oh god. What next; Tony Parsons?

ralph bell
ralph bell
1 year ago

Another great article Julie, to make me chuckle and mostly agree.

ralph bell
ralph bell
1 year ago

Another great article Julie, to make me chuckle and mostly agree.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

This article is fun, fascinating and really well-written. So much so that I don’t care if I agree with the author or not. I am not concerned one way or the other. I have no dog (or b***h) in this fight. This is as fine and funny and expressive a piece of writing as I’ve yet encountered on Unherd. Great stuff.
Signed: Straight, White, Male, and Thourougjly Entertained

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Did you know you can edit your spelling errors?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Did you know you can edit your spelling errors?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

This article is fun, fascinating and really well-written. So much so that I don’t care if I agree with the author or not. I am not concerned one way or the other. I have no dog (or b***h) in this fight. This is as fine and funny and expressive a piece of writing as I’ve yet encountered on Unherd. Great stuff.
Signed: Straight, White, Male, and Thourougjly Entertained

michael stanwick
michael stanwick
1 year ago

Men have fetishised the erasure of women
I don’t know if this subheading is meant to be provocative or not, but it is certainly lazy language.
Does it mean all men or some men? To me it implicates all members of the class of people that are male, in some kind of negative behaviour. As such this is a negative generalisation about a class of people based on an immutable characteristic. It is fair to say that such an expressed attitude as in the subheading is prejudice?

Last edited 1 year ago by michael stanwick
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago

It means ALL men in cultures that have granted women equal rights or more.
It obviously excludes men from cultures in certain parts of the middle East and Africa that treats women as inferior objects to be owned by men. Because to criticise them would be racist of course.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

‘cultures that have granted women equal rights or more’? Who, then, do you imagine holds the ‘right’ to withhold ‘equal rights’ so that they need to be ‘granted’ in the first place?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

They’re frequently criticized. It depends where you get your information.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

‘cultures that have granted women equal rights or more’? Who, then, do you imagine holds the ‘right’ to withhold ‘equal rights’ so that they need to be ‘granted’ in the first place?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

They’re frequently criticized. It depends where you get your information.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago

But not ‘immutable’ if the man concerned chooses to ‘mute’ them, or ‘mutilate’ them?
This is not ‘manhood’ under attack here, but the support of many – far too many – men who are homosexual or heterosexual but not ‘trans’ for the notion that ‘womanhood’ is open to any man who fancies he’d like to be accepted and treated AS a woman, and not merely behaving as IF he were a woman.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago

It means ALL men in cultures that have granted women equal rights or more.
It obviously excludes men from cultures in certain parts of the middle East and Africa that treats women as inferior objects to be owned by men. Because to criticise them would be racist of course.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago

But not ‘immutable’ if the man concerned chooses to ‘mute’ them, or ‘mutilate’ them?
This is not ‘manhood’ under attack here, but the support of many – far too many – men who are homosexual or heterosexual but not ‘trans’ for the notion that ‘womanhood’ is open to any man who fancies he’d like to be accepted and treated AS a woman, and not merely behaving as IF he were a woman.

michael stanwick
michael stanwick
1 year ago

Men have fetishised the erasure of women
I don’t know if this subheading is meant to be provocative or not, but it is certainly lazy language.
Does it mean all men or some men? To me it implicates all members of the class of people that are male, in some kind of negative behaviour. As such this is a negative generalisation about a class of people based on an immutable characteristic. It is fair to say that such an expressed attitude as in the subheading is prejudice?

Last edited 1 year ago by michael stanwick
Tim Brooks
Tim Brooks
1 year ago

A lot of people here are missing out on the wonderful, ascerbic, opinionated, incisive, witty, excoriating work of J Burchill. I disagree very often with some of her side swipes and more general attacks on ‘groups’ – but love to hear it being said. While she is still in print, despite the threat of language control, prohibition (and compulsion) she is a breath of fresh air.
We need people like her – people who just don’t give a f**k! Not too many – but some, enough!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Tim Brooks

And funny.Funny is good.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Tim Brooks

And funny.Funny is good.

Tim Brooks
Tim Brooks
1 year ago

A lot of people here are missing out on the wonderful, ascerbic, opinionated, incisive, witty, excoriating work of J Burchill. I disagree very often with some of her side swipes and more general attacks on ‘groups’ – but love to hear it being said. While she is still in print, despite the threat of language control, prohibition (and compulsion) she is a breath of fresh air.
We need people like her – people who just don’t give a f**k! Not too many – but some, enough!

Douglas H
Douglas H
1 year ago

“Reservoir Terfs” – thanks, Jules, that made my day.

Douglas H
Douglas H
1 year ago

“Reservoir Terfs” – thanks, Jules, that made my day.

Thomas Hall
Thomas Hall
1 year ago

Ah yes- the everlasting fun of being a lesbian. Don’t lesbian couples have the highest incidence of domestic violence? Also, why is it that all the lesbians I know seem to lack the femininity that I notice in women I find attractive? And what is it with the bull d**e type? Agree that Dr Stock looks cool though!

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  Thomas Hall

You are correct.
The highest incidence of domestic violence is between lesbian couples.

Paul Boire
Paul Boire
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Children who magically appear with them are the most sexually abused of all children.

Andy Martin
Andy Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

Concerning the last three posts, pardon my skepticism, but claims of high incidence of domestic violence with lesbian couples, and another claim that “Children who magically appear with them are the most sexually abused of all children” is news to me.
ï»żAny supporting evidence for these claims?

Andy Martin
Andy Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Martin

OK,
I did some research and according to published research papers, yes, in same-sex relationships including both lesbian and gay domestic violence occurs.
In the following paper, domestic violence is claimed to be equally common in both same-sex and heterosexual relationships.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J041v04n01_01
Well I never!
However, I could find no evidence suggesting DV is higher in lesbian relationships than gay male or heterosexual relationships.

Nuria Haering
Nuria Haering
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Martin

It’s a homophobic trope thrown out all the time. The fact is both men and women are far likelier to suffer serious harm or death at the hands of a male partner.

There is also a huge difference between domestic abuse and common couple violence, the latter being incidents of mutual aggression that occur during arguments. Abuse follows a perpetrator-victim pattern and escalates dangerously over time. Common couple violence does not follow this pattern. It’s often more sporadic, does not necessarily escalate, and is a problem of mutual dysfunction that can be worked through in therapy.

I could be convinced that common couple violence is slightly more prevalent in same-sex relationships purely because partners might see each other as physical equals. The stigma around male-on-female aggression is so much greater than male-on-male or female-on-female.

But I have never seen any evidence that serious abuse dynamics are more prevalent in same-sex relationships, or that a woman statistically has more to fear from a female partner than a male partner.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nuria Haering

There isn’t a stigma around male on female violence.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nuria Haering

There isn’t a stigma around male on female violence.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Martin

Exactly, because it certainly isn’t higher.All kinds of violence against women is high all over the world.

Nuria Haering
Nuria Haering
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Martin

It’s a homophobic trope thrown out all the time. The fact is both men and women are far likelier to suffer serious harm or death at the hands of a male partner.

There is also a huge difference between domestic abuse and common couple violence, the latter being incidents of mutual aggression that occur during arguments. Abuse follows a perpetrator-victim pattern and escalates dangerously over time. Common couple violence does not follow this pattern. It’s often more sporadic, does not necessarily escalate, and is a problem of mutual dysfunction that can be worked through in therapy.

I could be convinced that common couple violence is slightly more prevalent in same-sex relationships purely because partners might see each other as physical equals. The stigma around male-on-female aggression is so much greater than male-on-male or female-on-female.

But I have never seen any evidence that serious abuse dynamics are more prevalent in same-sex relationships, or that a woman statistically has more to fear from a female partner than a male partner.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Martin

Exactly, because it certainly isn’t higher.All kinds of violence against women is high all over the world.

Andy Martin
Andy Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Martin

OK,
I did some research and according to published research papers, yes, in same-sex relationships including both lesbian and gay domestic violence occurs.
In the following paper, domestic violence is claimed to be equally common in both same-sex and heterosexual relationships.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J041v04n01_01
Well I never!
However, I could find no evidence suggesting DV is higher in lesbian relationships than gay male or heterosexual relationships.

Lou Davey
Lou Davey
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

What is your source for that claim?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

So not true!

Andy Martin
Andy Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

Concerning the last three posts, pardon my skepticism, but claims of high incidence of domestic violence with lesbian couples, and another claim that “Children who magically appear with them are the most sexually abused of all children” is news to me.
ï»żAny supporting evidence for these claims?

Lou Davey
Lou Davey
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

What is your source for that claim?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Boire

So not true!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Rubbish! Where did you get that information? It’s not true.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clare Knight
Paul Boire
Paul Boire
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Children who magically appear with them are the most sexually abused of all children.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Rubbish! Where did you get that information? It’s not true.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clare Knight
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Thomas Hall

No they don’t have the highest incidence of domestic violence. Leave that to men who frequently assault and kill they’re female partners, wives and ex wives.

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  Thomas Hall

You are correct.
The highest incidence of domestic violence is between lesbian couples.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Thomas Hall

No they don’t have the highest incidence of domestic violence. Leave that to men who frequently assault and kill they’re female partners, wives and ex wives.

Thomas Hall
Thomas Hall
1 year ago

Ah yes- the everlasting fun of being a lesbian. Don’t lesbian couples have the highest incidence of domestic violence? Also, why is it that all the lesbians I know seem to lack the femininity that I notice in women I find attractive? And what is it with the bull d**e type? Agree that Dr Stock looks cool though!

Lennon Ó Náraigh
Lennon Ó Náraigh
1 year ago

That’s a very intriguing (if somewhat racy) picture of Julie at the top of the article.

Last edited 1 year ago by Lennon Ó Náraigh
Andrew D
Andrew D
1 year ago

By Gustave Courbet, a hero of the French left (and a great painter)

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew D
Lennon Ó Náraigh
Lennon Ó Náraigh
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew D

My mistake. I thought Page 3 had been abolished. It has just moved over to Unherd and gone a bit upmarket. I think the original model for “Le Sommeil” was Joanna Heffernan, one of the Limerick Heffernans.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 year ago

That I didn’t know!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Was she also the ‘model’ for : L’Origine du monde?

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 year ago

That I didn’t know!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Was she also the ‘model’ for : L’Origine du monde?

Lennon Ó Náraigh
Lennon Ó Náraigh
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew D

My mistake. I thought Page 3 had been abolished. It has just moved over to Unherd and gone a bit upmarket. I think the original model for “Le Sommeil” was Joanna Heffernan, one of the Limerick Heffernans.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 year ago

By Gustave Courbet, a hero of the French left (and a great painter)

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew D
Lennon Ó Náraigh
Lennon Ó Náraigh
1 year ago

That’s a very intriguing (if somewhat racy) picture of Julie at the top of the article.

Last edited 1 year ago by Lennon Ó Náraigh
Cynthia W.
Cynthia W.
1 year ago

“And, most of all, what a man cannot be is a lesbian.”
That’s just silly. This “look at me being Special” special pleading makes no more sense than everyone who claims to be Queer because being average doesn’t get attention.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Cynthia W.

“And, most of all, what a man cannot be is a lesbian.”
I’d argue that, since most of us are attracted to women, we’re more than halfway there…

Cynthia W.
Cynthia W.
1 year ago
Reply to  John Dee

Why “more than halfway”?
Anyway, if there’s a “most of all” that a man cannot be, I would say “a mother.”