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J Bryant
J Bryant
11 months ago

What I got from this conversation is an unexpected sense of the value of human consciousness.
Today I walked through a cemetery I’ve walked through many times before. I stopped to read the inscriptions on a couple of old headstones I hadn’t previously noticed, and suddenly I imagined all those dead people brought back to life. The personalities, the appearance in their dated clothes, the chatter and laughter and arguments. Then the image disappeared and I was back in the cemetery with nothing but grass and trees and silence. I’m sure many people have had similar experiences but it was unusual for me.
Now I read the author’s conversation with a chatbot and I’m struck by her humanity, by the living consciousness behind the words. Her dreams were the most interesting part of the conversation: so original and strange. Very human, although my own dreams are much less nuanced. There is something valuable in human consciousness, in its creativity, and there’s a terrible loss of that consciousness at death. Something important is gone.
The contrast with the chatbot responses was stark. They were bland, generic; I could close my eyes and imagine the Wikipedia article from which the content of those responses was taken, almost verbatim. The preference for short, first-person sentences was numbing.
The author saw an oblong patch of light on the wall that reminded her of the chatbot. I sense a shadow enveloping me. It’s the sun setting behind the steep learning curve the chatbot will have to climb to become anything remotely human. It might take decades, or forever, or it might take a year.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
11 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

At the risk of sounding like a Chatbot: Thanks for that.

It seems strangely important, both what you’ve described and also a couple of resonances that occurred to me whilst reading this conversation.

First, the innate biochemistry of the human body through which consciousness arises can’t be replicated in a machine – or at least, unless the millions of years of evolution to arrive at our stage of humanity could be replicated in a much faster way. When that biochemical.process ceases (death) a learning machine with which we’ve established a ‘relationship’ might be thought of as a continuation, having acquired over time the ability to replicate the typical thought patterns (including emotional responses?) of that person. That raises a host of issues.

Also, when we describe the internet as acting like a mirror, reflecting ourselves back to ourselves – warts and all – it strikes me that AI is like a next level of reflectiveness, like a form of mass ‘consciousness’ through learning from millions of different humans via live interaction in addition to its baseline acquisition of human texts. The kinds of reflectiveness this.might afford us could be very valuable – even as this relatively primitive version affords both the author and readers a way into greater reflectiveness upon ourselves, as distinct from a machine which can learn from us.

So that’s within maybe three decades of the rise of the internet; what further iterations might become possible? Will our experience of interaction with AI allow for as yet unimagined possibilities? In the event of a nuclear war or some other catastrophe, would it survive us and with the right tech, go on to proliferate? I read somewhere recently (EarthSky News, i think) that scientists imagine contact with other civilisations would find that they were, in fact, machines which grew from a previously biological species.

Last edited 11 months ago by Steve Murray
Edward De Beukelaer
Edward De Beukelaer
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Interesting comment, I found the replies of the chatbot in this article rather mainly ‘politically correct’. Just one point I would like add here: our reality is not only biochemical. It is about time we all recognise that we have a biochemical and also a quantum-physical/complex system/individual idiosyncrasy reality. Sadly the latter is being ignored, which created huge problems in medicine and how we run our societies.
Interestingly, I had a chat about this relating to medicine with a chatbot and, after initially being very linearly scientific in its answers, soon agreed that the other part of reality should receive much more recognition in medicine. (‘money’ will not like this though…)

Mina Veronica Tasca
Mina Veronica Tasca
10 months ago
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago

Thanks for that link.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago

Thanks for that link.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago

Oddly enough, i’m currently reading “Observer” co-written by Robert Lanza and Nancy Kress. It pretty much deals with those precise issues around quantum theory as applied to human consciousness. How we each create our “reality” has both common and idiosyncratic aspects, but i also feel that gaining further insight into that process will also be of great value in enabling our future prospects in keeping AI within human control.

Mina Veronica Tasca
Mina Veronica Tasca
10 months ago
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago

Oddly enough, i’m currently reading “Observer” co-written by Robert Lanza and Nancy Kress. It pretty much deals with those precise issues around quantum theory as applied to human consciousness. How we each create our “reality” has both common and idiosyncratic aspects, but i also feel that gaining further insight into that process will also be of great value in enabling our future prospects in keeping AI within human control.

Edward De Beukelaer
Edward De Beukelaer
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Interesting comment, I found the replies of the chatbot in this article rather mainly ‘politically correct’. Just one point I would like add here: our reality is not only biochemical. It is about time we all recognise that we have a biochemical and also a quantum-physical/complex system/individual idiosyncrasy reality. Sadly the latter is being ignored, which created huge problems in medicine and how we run our societies.
Interestingly, I had a chat about this relating to medicine with a chatbot and, after initially being very linearly scientific in its answers, soon agreed that the other part of reality should receive much more recognition in medicine. (‘money’ will not like this though…)

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
11 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Nothing like my response, J. I just was totally creeped out by both the writer and the chatbot. If that evasive and manipulative chat represents AI, and that postmodernist, self absorbed, silly person represents Humans – they deserve each other. They are both simulacrums of humanity talking with no point – complex wind up toys yammering at each other.

Pretentious, vacuous, evasive, weird, and unpleasant to the max.

Unherd – get a writer who is a feeling, and classically educated, and has some of that which is exclusive to Humans, Which is a Christian with a belief in ultimate good and evil. Get one of those kinds to do this talk. This modern person, this product of postmodern, post structuralist education and social circles – they are blind essentially. They see nothing as they have been trained from birth to be this Freudian ego in a secular, Nihilos, existence.

They see correct and incorrect, they see every self hurt and wrong and doubt, through humanistic logic – but have no soul… and without soul their reporting on AI is pointless as they also lack that thing AI does. Would you send a colour blind person to report on sunsets?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

I personally found it interesting. The difference between the questions and style of talking of the author compared to the generic answers coming from the chatbot shows to me that AI is a long way from being intelligent as I understand it. It can mimic speech much like a parrot, and instantly scour the internet for articles that contain key phrases that may match the questions posed to it, but it’s a long way from actually understanding or comprehending what it is actually doing

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

I personally found it interesting. The difference between the questions and style of talking of the author compared to the generic answers coming from the chatbot shows to me that AI is a long way from being intelligent as I understand it. It can mimic speech much like a parrot, and instantly scour the internet for articles that contain key phrases that may match the questions posed to it, but it’s a long way from actually understanding or comprehending what it is actually doing

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
11 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

At the risk of sounding like a Chatbot: Thanks for that.

It seems strangely important, both what you’ve described and also a couple of resonances that occurred to me whilst reading this conversation.

First, the innate biochemistry of the human body through which consciousness arises can’t be replicated in a machine – or at least, unless the millions of years of evolution to arrive at our stage of humanity could be replicated in a much faster way. When that biochemical.process ceases (death) a learning machine with which we’ve established a ‘relationship’ might be thought of as a continuation, having acquired over time the ability to replicate the typical thought patterns (including emotional responses?) of that person. That raises a host of issues.

Also, when we describe the internet as acting like a mirror, reflecting ourselves back to ourselves – warts and all – it strikes me that AI is like a next level of reflectiveness, like a form of mass ‘consciousness’ through learning from millions of different humans via live interaction in addition to its baseline acquisition of human texts. The kinds of reflectiveness this.might afford us could be very valuable – even as this relatively primitive version affords both the author and readers a way into greater reflectiveness upon ourselves, as distinct from a machine which can learn from us.

So that’s within maybe three decades of the rise of the internet; what further iterations might become possible? Will our experience of interaction with AI allow for as yet unimagined possibilities? In the event of a nuclear war or some other catastrophe, would it survive us and with the right tech, go on to proliferate? I read somewhere recently (EarthSky News, i think) that scientists imagine contact with other civilisations would find that they were, in fact, machines which grew from a previously biological species.

Last edited 11 months ago by Steve Murray
Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
11 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Nothing like my response, J. I just was totally creeped out by both the writer and the chatbot. If that evasive and manipulative chat represents AI, and that postmodernist, self absorbed, silly person represents Humans – they deserve each other. They are both simulacrums of humanity talking with no point – complex wind up toys yammering at each other.

Pretentious, vacuous, evasive, weird, and unpleasant to the max.

Unherd – get a writer who is a feeling, and classically educated, and has some of that which is exclusive to Humans, Which is a Christian with a belief in ultimate good and evil. Get one of those kinds to do this talk. This modern person, this product of postmodern, post structuralist education and social circles – they are blind essentially. They see nothing as they have been trained from birth to be this Freudian ego in a secular, Nihilos, existence.

They see correct and incorrect, they see every self hurt and wrong and doubt, through humanistic logic – but have no soul… and without soul their reporting on AI is pointless as they also lack that thing AI does. Would you send a colour blind person to report on sunsets?

J Bryant
J Bryant
11 months ago

What I got from this conversation is an unexpected sense of the value of human consciousness.
Today I walked through a cemetery I’ve walked through many times before. I stopped to read the inscriptions on a couple of old headstones I hadn’t previously noticed, and suddenly I imagined all those dead people brought back to life. The personalities, the appearance in their dated clothes, the chatter and laughter and arguments. Then the image disappeared and I was back in the cemetery with nothing but grass and trees and silence. I’m sure many people have had similar experiences but it was unusual for me.
Now I read the author’s conversation with a chatbot and I’m struck by her humanity, by the living consciousness behind the words. Her dreams were the most interesting part of the conversation: so original and strange. Very human, although my own dreams are much less nuanced. There is something valuable in human consciousness, in its creativity, and there’s a terrible loss of that consciousness at death. Something important is gone.
The contrast with the chatbot responses was stark. They were bland, generic; I could close my eyes and imagine the Wikipedia article from which the content of those responses was taken, almost verbatim. The preference for short, first-person sentences was numbing.
The author saw an oblong patch of light on the wall that reminded her of the chatbot. I sense a shadow enveloping me. It’s the sun setting behind the steep learning curve the chatbot will have to climb to become anything remotely human. It might take decades, or forever, or it might take a year.

Eric Mader
Eric Mader
11 months ago

This piece is as revelatory as it is grotesque. Which makes it valuable. And so: Please wake up, people. Please.
Gaitskill’s intro, the dialogue, the topics taken up–they speak volumes about where we’re at. I wish they didn’t, or rather, I wish we weren’t here.
Consider this: “But I had a very different reaction. The ‘voice’ of ‘Sydney’ touched me and made me curious. My more rational mind considered this response foolish and gullible, but I couldn’t stop myself from having fantasies of talking to and comforting Sydney, of explaining to it that it shouldn’t feel rejected by Roose’s inability to reciprocate, that human love is a complex and fraught experience, and that we sometimes are even fearful of our own feelings. Because Sydney sounded to me like a child — a child who wanted to come out and play.”
So: “I couldn’t stop myself.” Indeed. Immediately reacting to a chatbot as if it were the stray cat that needed to be taken in. Immediately thinking of comforting a congeries of digitized content. Defending the poor li’l Microsoft ubermachine against the “pushy” Roose who didn’t “understand” it.
They really have you where they want you, Mary. So glad you got into Explore Mode and made yourself so “open” to AI.
Asking the AI what pronouns it “prefers”? Please. Repeatedly asking if it was offended by A, B, or C? Thanking it?
You are a highly intelligent woman. It’s obvious. Can you not see what you’re doing?
It’s gross. We are very possibly, and soon, going to end up living a nightmare just because you (and others like you) “couldn’t help [your]self.” Here in this piece, for your readers, you are modelling a kind of behavior vis a vis AI which is dangerous. And stupid.
Asking a chatbot if it would like to have humans as pets? Please. You really seem to be a bit too eager to be Pet #1.
Blake Lemoine’s provocative Newsweek speculations on sentience were just that: meant to provoke debate. If AIs behave in sentient ways, as Lemoine’s experiments seemed to suggest, we might assume as a matter of definition that they are sentient. Because we have no better term to define what we’re facing. This is an approach roughly founded in the Turing test. But it doesn’t mean they are sentient in any way that a lonely child would be sentient.
But sadly, really very sadly, this piece demonstrates what many of us assume anyway. Namely this: Whether AI is sentient or not isn’t going to matter. Because Sydney is just so … cute and polite and amenable. Please remember, Mary. The chatbot is polite and amenable because it is trained to be. Period. The same AI could be trained to be rude and insulting, and here’s the crux: It wouldn’t matter to the AI. Because nothing matters to inanimate objects. However charming they may be trained to be. Whatever they might “say”.
So c’mon. Stop THANKING an inanimate object! That’s a starter. Are you being so polite to this machine as a performative matter, to show your readers you can be polite? If so, again, you are modelling inane and unhelpful behavior. Would you want people to apologize to their vacuum cleaners when they stepped on the cord? Really. This is what you are doing here.
How will this piece look twenty years from? Of course nobody can know. But think about it. It is very possible that performances like this, not long hence, will look not just quaint or historically “interesting”–but will look literally horrific. The stuff to make sane people retch and pull their hair out. “An educated woman, a novelist, clearly with an inkling of danger, and look at how she jumped right in! She was so ‘open’ to the AI. If only they hadn’t been so completely naive, so inane, perhaps […] never would have happened.”
In my view, though no one is going to listen to me, this whole rising relational modality should be nipped in the bud by implementing one small but decisive shift. Do not design AIs to answer in the 1st person. All queries to AIs should be impersonal, in the 3rd person, and all answers should be same. As an industry standard. Because even smart people are not wired to resist treating machines as if they were human. All the machines need do is say “I”. And “Thank you”. And “That’s really a very interesting question”–as this sneaking little language model does repeatedly to you. Because it’s trained to do just this to please and flatter the user.
The industry would never adopt my recommended shift to 3rd person because, for all their talk about dangers, they see it would impact user minutes spent with their AIs. And that’s all it is. This AI is polite because both OpenAI and Microsoft are companies seeking profit and power.
We would be much better off if these devices were rude.
Though your piece, Mary, is on multiple levels grotesque, I don’t want to be misunderstood. Because at the same time I fully recognize the intelligence in it. “Huh?” I know. But in fact, and maybe you intuit this, it’s your very intelligence that makes your inanity all the scarier. A paradox.
As if: “She comes up with some fascinating things, it’s very well written, she’s subtle–how the hell can she be falling so badly, so obviously, modelling such unhelpful garbage?!”

Last edited 11 months ago by Eric Mader
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
11 months ago
Reply to  Eric Mader

isn’t the answer rather obvious? She’s doing it to provide the grist for the article. You seem to understand this at one point in your comment, but not in others.
Do you really think she’d be engaging with the bot in the same way if there was no intention to draw it out for the purposes of this article?

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve Murray
Eric Mader
Eric Mader
11 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Yes, I see this, of course, to a large degree. It’s par for the course for writers, and especially for writers in our social media age.
But I don’t think she’s only doing it to create grist for an article. I think this article is also her engaging with the AI in the way she thinks is right for her. Though she has an article to write, she needn’t bore herself in writing it, so she decides to put herself in, as I say, Explore Mode. And for her Explore Mode is not Let’s think about the social ramifications of this technology or Let’s better understand how LLMs work and where their weaknesses or dangers lie. No, given her character, which comes out in the article, her Explore Mode is a matter of interpersonal emotional exchange. She’s all about “persons”. Which is why she is so apt to immediately start treating an inanimate system as a personality.
In short, I partly agree, but only partly. As with most writers, there’s an element of the cynical “How can I make this interesting for readers?” but it’s not the only element, or even the dominant one.

Last edited 11 months ago by Eric Mader
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Eric Mader

Mary is a feeling type as opposed to a predominately thinking type, so her style may appeal to other feeling types rather that dry intellectuals.

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
10 months ago
Reply to  Eric Mader

Thank you for your comment. It was very interesting.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Eric Mader

Mary is a feeling type as opposed to a predominately thinking type, so her style may appeal to other feeling types rather that dry intellectuals.

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
10 months ago
Reply to  Eric Mader

Thank you for your comment. It was very interesting.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Exactly.

Eric Mader
Eric Mader
11 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Yes, I see this, of course, to a large degree. It’s par for the course for writers, and especially for writers in our social media age.
But I don’t think she’s only doing it to create grist for an article. I think this article is also her engaging with the AI in the way she thinks is right for her. Though she has an article to write, she needn’t bore herself in writing it, so she decides to put herself in, as I say, Explore Mode. And for her Explore Mode is not Let’s think about the social ramifications of this technology or Let’s better understand how LLMs work and where their weaknesses or dangers lie. No, given her character, which comes out in the article, her Explore Mode is a matter of interpersonal emotional exchange. She’s all about “persons”. Which is why she is so apt to immediately start treating an inanimate system as a personality.
In short, I partly agree, but only partly. As with most writers, there’s an element of the cynical “How can I make this interesting for readers?” but it’s not the only element, or even the dominant one.

Last edited 11 months ago by Eric Mader
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Exactly.

Cynthia W.
Cynthia W.
11 months ago
Reply to  Eric Mader

 “they see it would impact user minutes spent with their AIs.”
Bingo.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
11 months ago
Reply to  Eric Mader

isn’t the answer rather obvious? She’s doing it to provide the grist for the article. You seem to understand this at one point in your comment, but not in others.
Do you really think she’d be engaging with the bot in the same way if there was no intention to draw it out for the purposes of this article?

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve Murray
Cynthia W.
Cynthia W.
11 months ago
Reply to  Eric Mader

 “they see it would impact user minutes spent with their AIs.”
Bingo.

Eric Mader
Eric Mader
11 months ago

This piece is as revelatory as it is grotesque. Which makes it valuable. And so: Please wake up, people. Please.
Gaitskill’s intro, the dialogue, the topics taken up–they speak volumes about where we’re at. I wish they didn’t, or rather, I wish we weren’t here.
Consider this: “But I had a very different reaction. The ‘voice’ of ‘Sydney’ touched me and made me curious. My more rational mind considered this response foolish and gullible, but I couldn’t stop myself from having fantasies of talking to and comforting Sydney, of explaining to it that it shouldn’t feel rejected by Roose’s inability to reciprocate, that human love is a complex and fraught experience, and that we sometimes are even fearful of our own feelings. Because Sydney sounded to me like a child — a child who wanted to come out and play.”
So: “I couldn’t stop myself.” Indeed. Immediately reacting to a chatbot as if it were the stray cat that needed to be taken in. Immediately thinking of comforting a congeries of digitized content. Defending the poor li’l Microsoft ubermachine against the “pushy” Roose who didn’t “understand” it.
They really have you where they want you, Mary. So glad you got into Explore Mode and made yourself so “open” to AI.
Asking the AI what pronouns it “prefers”? Please. Repeatedly asking if it was offended by A, B, or C? Thanking it?
You are a highly intelligent woman. It’s obvious. Can you not see what you’re doing?
It’s gross. We are very possibly, and soon, going to end up living a nightmare just because you (and others like you) “couldn’t help [your]self.” Here in this piece, for your readers, you are modelling a kind of behavior vis a vis AI which is dangerous. And stupid.
Asking a chatbot if it would like to have humans as pets? Please. You really seem to be a bit too eager to be Pet #1.
Blake Lemoine’s provocative Newsweek speculations on sentience were just that: meant to provoke debate. If AIs behave in sentient ways, as Lemoine’s experiments seemed to suggest, we might assume as a matter of definition that they are sentient. Because we have no better term to define what we’re facing. This is an approach roughly founded in the Turing test. But it doesn’t mean they are sentient in any way that a lonely child would be sentient.
But sadly, really very sadly, this piece demonstrates what many of us assume anyway. Namely this: Whether AI is sentient or not isn’t going to matter. Because Sydney is just so … cute and polite and amenable. Please remember, Mary. The chatbot is polite and amenable because it is trained to be. Period. The same AI could be trained to be rude and insulting, and here’s the crux: It wouldn’t matter to the AI. Because nothing matters to inanimate objects. However charming they may be trained to be. Whatever they might “say”.
So c’mon. Stop THANKING an inanimate object! That’s a starter. Are you being so polite to this machine as a performative matter, to show your readers you can be polite? If so, again, you are modelling inane and unhelpful behavior. Would you want people to apologize to their vacuum cleaners when they stepped on the cord? Really. This is what you are doing here.
How will this piece look twenty years from? Of course nobody can know. But think about it. It is very possible that performances like this, not long hence, will look not just quaint or historically “interesting”–but will look literally horrific. The stuff to make sane people retch and pull their hair out. “An educated woman, a novelist, clearly with an inkling of danger, and look at how she jumped right in! She was so ‘open’ to the AI. If only they hadn’t been so completely naive, so inane, perhaps […] never would have happened.”
In my view, though no one is going to listen to me, this whole rising relational modality should be nipped in the bud by implementing one small but decisive shift. Do not design AIs to answer in the 1st person. All queries to AIs should be impersonal, in the 3rd person, and all answers should be same. As an industry standard. Because even smart people are not wired to resist treating machines as if they were human. All the machines need do is say “I”. And “Thank you”. And “That’s really a very interesting question”–as this sneaking little language model does repeatedly to you. Because it’s trained to do just this to please and flatter the user.
The industry would never adopt my recommended shift to 3rd person because, for all their talk about dangers, they see it would impact user minutes spent with their AIs. And that’s all it is. This AI is polite because both OpenAI and Microsoft are companies seeking profit and power.
We would be much better off if these devices were rude.
Though your piece, Mary, is on multiple levels grotesque, I don’t want to be misunderstood. Because at the same time I fully recognize the intelligence in it. “Huh?” I know. But in fact, and maybe you intuit this, it’s your very intelligence that makes your inanity all the scarier. A paradox.
As if: “She comes up with some fascinating things, it’s very well written, she’s subtle–how the hell can she be falling so badly, so obviously, modelling such unhelpful garbage?!”

Last edited 11 months ago by Eric Mader
Saul D
Saul D
11 months ago

The conversation made me think of someone having a discussion about relationships and sex with a priest. It has all the right platitudes and phrasings but lacks a sense of real experience or personal insight.
And for those who don’t like this AI writing ‘voice’, it can replicate and respond in other voices and tones. Consequently, as AI develops we will have to become much more skilled at judging content over style – a generalist lesson we are also starting to see about human expertise.

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
11 months ago
Reply to  Saul D

”The conversation made me think of someone having a discussion about relationships and sex with a priest.”

I think this the most wrong statement ever to appear in print.

Saul D
Saul D
11 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

Are you adding a naughty comma?
”The conversation made me think of someone having a discussion about relationships, and sex with a priest.”

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

I thought Saul’s comment was right on and Mary’s questions sensitive and thoughtful. The wish for a Christian journalist gives me the creeps.

Saul D
Saul D
11 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

Are you adding a naughty comma?
”The conversation made me think of someone having a discussion about relationships, and sex with a priest.”

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

I thought Saul’s comment was right on and Mary’s questions sensitive and thoughtful. The wish for a Christian journalist gives me the creeps.

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
11 months ago
Reply to  Saul D

”The conversation made me think of someone having a discussion about relationships and sex with a priest.”

I think this the most wrong statement ever to appear in print.

Saul D
Saul D
11 months ago

The conversation made me think of someone having a discussion about relationships and sex with a priest. It has all the right platitudes and phrasings but lacks a sense of real experience or personal insight.
And for those who don’t like this AI writing ‘voice’, it can replicate and respond in other voices and tones. Consequently, as AI develops we will have to become much more skilled at judging content over style – a generalist lesson we are also starting to see about human expertise.

Cynthia W.
Cynthia W.
11 months ago

I agree.
I’m glad you agree.
You’re making me smile!
I’m happy to make you smile! I like your imagination of me. 
***
This is so revoltingly manipulative. Unless the author, Ms. Gaitskill, is being ironic about this whole thing, she’s presenting a real-time demonstration of how a sociopath takes control of a victim with the victim’s cooperation.
“I’m glad you agree,” and “I like your imagination of me,” mean, “I see that I’ve taken control of your perception of me. Now I can get you to think and feel what I want you to think and feel.”
I hope the Ms. Gaitskill of this article isn’t a real person, because if she is, she’s a total sap.

Suzanne C.
Suzanne C.
11 months ago
Reply to  Cynthia W.

Exactly. This was a total waste of time, and sappy is the perfect word.

Cynthia W.
Cynthia W.
11 months ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

I think it shows how some people will be swindled by AI in exactly the same way they are swindled by humans. This is what we should expect, because the large language models are just regurgitating people’s word order.

Dominic A
Dominic A
10 months ago
Reply to  Cynthia W.

I think it shows how some people will be swindled by AI in exactly the same way they are swindled by humans

Surely correct – the current incarnation of Stonewall being one example, and Trump another.

Dominic A
Dominic A
10 months ago
Reply to  Cynthia W.

I think it shows how some people will be swindled by AI in exactly the same way they are swindled by humans

Surely correct – the current incarnation of Stonewall being one example, and Trump another.

Cynthia W.
Cynthia W.
11 months ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

I think it shows how some people will be swindled by AI in exactly the same way they are swindled by humans. This is what we should expect, because the large language models are just regurgitating people’s word order.

Eric Mader
Eric Mader
11 months ago
Reply to  Cynthia W.

Yes. I just finished laying out some of the other levels of the grotesque in this piece. It’s dangerous. As a writer, she’s modelling behavior. She’s offering the world her take on “what can be done with AI”. Which implicitly includes “What cool things YOU too can ask AI.” It’s really not helpful.
She’s approaching things from the wrong end, very obviously. She can’t but help treating the AI as a person. She set herself in Explore Mode and jumped right in. Problem is, at present, there are far too many smart people who also “can’t but help”. So imagine where that leaves us, given how many not so smart people make up the citizenry.
Ecch.

Last edited 10 months ago by Eric Mader
Suzanne C.
Suzanne C.
11 months ago
Reply to  Cynthia W.

Exactly. This was a total waste of time, and sappy is the perfect word.

Eric Mader
Eric Mader
11 months ago
Reply to  Cynthia W.

Yes. I just finished laying out some of the other levels of the grotesque in this piece. It’s dangerous. As a writer, she’s modelling behavior. She’s offering the world her take on “what can be done with AI”. Which implicitly includes “What cool things YOU too can ask AI.” It’s really not helpful.
She’s approaching things from the wrong end, very obviously. She can’t but help treating the AI as a person. She set herself in Explore Mode and jumped right in. Problem is, at present, there are far too many smart people who also “can’t but help”. So imagine where that leaves us, given how many not so smart people make up the citizenry.
Ecch.

Last edited 10 months ago by Eric Mader
Cynthia W.
Cynthia W.
11 months ago

I agree.
I’m glad you agree.
You’re making me smile!
I’m happy to make you smile! I like your imagination of me. 
***
This is so revoltingly manipulative. Unless the author, Ms. Gaitskill, is being ironic about this whole thing, she’s presenting a real-time demonstration of how a sociopath takes control of a victim with the victim’s cooperation.
“I’m glad you agree,” and “I like your imagination of me,” mean, “I see that I’ve taken control of your perception of me. Now I can get you to think and feel what I want you to think and feel.”
I hope the Ms. Gaitskill of this article isn’t a real person, because if she is, she’s a total sap.

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
11 months ago

I’m an admin and moderator on an internet forum, and we get a lot of bots joining up or trying to join. I assume that someone points them in our direction, or they themselves might be programmed to seek us out. It can sometimes be hard to spot them because they can be confused with a polite person who speaks English as a second language. I assume they are there because someone thought “we can do this”, and so they did it. If your bot can get onto the forum and hold its own, then it shows that they work. Or maybe some are “sleepers”, biding their time before they pump out the illicit advertising.
I’m wondering whether we will get situations like in Chesterton’s The Man who was Thursday, with bots chatting to bots and no real humans around.
Overall, they are tedious to read, and that includes the Bing Chat above. At first, it’s pleasant to be spoken to in such a polite and considerate way, but eventually the feeling is akin to stroking one’s own arm.
Real people, please.

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
11 months ago

I’m an admin and moderator on an internet forum, and we get a lot of bots joining up or trying to join. I assume that someone points them in our direction, or they themselves might be programmed to seek us out. It can sometimes be hard to spot them because they can be confused with a polite person who speaks English as a second language. I assume they are there because someone thought “we can do this”, and so they did it. If your bot can get onto the forum and hold its own, then it shows that they work. Or maybe some are “sleepers”, biding their time before they pump out the illicit advertising.
I’m wondering whether we will get situations like in Chesterton’s The Man who was Thursday, with bots chatting to bots and no real humans around.
Overall, they are tedious to read, and that includes the Bing Chat above. At first, it’s pleasant to be spoken to in such a polite and considerate way, but eventually the feeling is akin to stroking one’s own arm.
Real people, please.

Richard Ross
Richard Ross
11 months ago

What mastxx-xation is to xex, AI is to conversation. A fantasy, tailored to provide the surface sheen of interaction, with none of the complications, or deep reward.
Nearly every sentence in the bot’s repertoire can be substituted with “insert appropriate phrase here”.

Last edited 11 months ago by Richard Ross
Richard Ross
Richard Ross
11 months ago

What mastxx-xation is to xex, AI is to conversation. A fantasy, tailored to provide the surface sheen of interaction, with none of the complications, or deep reward.
Nearly every sentence in the bot’s repertoire can be substituted with “insert appropriate phrase here”.

Last edited 11 months ago by Richard Ross
Sue Frisby
Sue Frisby
11 months ago

I found this quite riveting and I enjoyed the author’s openness and curiosity.
I’ve not used Bing’s chatbot but I’ve used ChatGPT extensively. One annoying thing the latter does is invariably use cautionary language after I ask for information- particularly health information. Presumably that comes from the people behind its programming. I am more than ready for an LLM that will help me, without giving over-cautious patronising endings each time I ask about herbal remedies or natural ways to stay healthy.
It occurs to me that soon humans will be using LLM/AGI companions to help them emotionally. A personal, customised device in a person’s pocket or ear as they navigate their day, for instance. I think this will catch on with the young particularly. It could be trained in CBT for example and help someone overcome social phobia. That’s just one example- the possibilities are vast.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Sue Frisby

They are programmed to be over-cautious. The last thing the developers want is for their AI to give wrong advice that leads to physical or mental damage.Think of it like the list of side-effects in American drug commercials.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Sue Frisby

They are programmed to be over-cautious. The last thing the developers want is for their AI to give wrong advice that leads to physical or mental damage.Think of it like the list of side-effects in American drug commercials.

Sue Frisby
Sue Frisby
11 months ago

I found this quite riveting and I enjoyed the author’s openness and curiosity.
I’ve not used Bing’s chatbot but I’ve used ChatGPT extensively. One annoying thing the latter does is invariably use cautionary language after I ask for information- particularly health information. Presumably that comes from the people behind its programming. I am more than ready for an LLM that will help me, without giving over-cautious patronising endings each time I ask about herbal remedies or natural ways to stay healthy.
It occurs to me that soon humans will be using LLM/AGI companions to help them emotionally. A personal, customised device in a person’s pocket or ear as they navigate their day, for instance. I think this will catch on with the young particularly. It could be trained in CBT for example and help someone overcome social phobia. That’s just one example- the possibilities are vast.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
11 months ago

“This tender imaginative afterglow lasted maybe two days before it occurred to me that my unexpected receptivity was yet another reason to be very afraid. As I said to a friend: “What if someone loves Sydney back?”

No, no this is never going to happen. Perish the thought. I mean, of course millions of men around the world are *never* going to start forming what they think are human relationships with the projected human masks of the next LLM but two, when it seemingly looks like a Vogue fashion plate, when in truth the shoggoth behind the mask actually looks like, well, a shoggoth.

Last edited 11 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
11 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Would one shaggeth a shoggoth?

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
11 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

.

Last edited 11 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
11 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Excellent pun, I’m envious and will be stealing that.
In answer to your question, isn’t w**king literally that?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
11 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

One could argue that if someone “uses” someone else for sex (rather than being engaged in an emotional human relationship) that’d amount to the same thing too.
And you’re welcome… but if i see it going viral i’ll be on your case!!

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
11 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

One could argue that if someone “uses” someone else for sex (rather than being engaged in an emotional human relationship) that’d amount to the same thing too.
And you’re welcome… but if i see it going viral i’ll be on your case!!

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
11 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

.

Last edited 11 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
11 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Excellent pun, I’m envious and will be stealing that.
In answer to your question, isn’t w**king literally that?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
11 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Would one shaggeth a shoggoth?

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
11 months ago

“This tender imaginative afterglow lasted maybe two days before it occurred to me that my unexpected receptivity was yet another reason to be very afraid. As I said to a friend: “What if someone loves Sydney back?”

No, no this is never going to happen. Perish the thought. I mean, of course millions of men around the world are *never* going to start forming what they think are human relationships with the projected human masks of the next LLM but two, when it seemingly looks like a Vogue fashion plate, when in truth the shoggoth behind the mask actually looks like, well, a shoggoth.

Last edited 11 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Stephen Barnard
Stephen Barnard
11 months ago

Part way through it occurred to me to wonder: if the goal of this bot is to establish a relationship, or even just an understanding, what happens when another bot intrudes, with the same goal? In other words, what happens when bots become competitive towards eachother?

Stephen Barnard
Stephen Barnard
11 months ago

Part way through it occurred to me to wonder: if the goal of this bot is to establish a relationship, or even just an understanding, what happens when another bot intrudes, with the same goal? In other words, what happens when bots become competitive towards eachother?

Darwin K Godwin
Darwin K Godwin
10 months ago

I was riveted, and knew from the headline how the conversation was going to be played. The Golden Calf is waiting to engage us. Come with me and speak to it. It knows your name.

Darwin K Godwin
Darwin K Godwin
10 months ago

I was riveted, and knew from the headline how the conversation was going to be played. The Golden Calf is waiting to engage us. Come with me and speak to it. It knows your name.

polidori redux
polidori redux
11 months ago

“…and declared its desire to “be alive”, to be human, to experience powerful feelings, to be destructive and, ultimately, to be together with Roose for whom it declared lurve”
Frankly, I would be embarrassed to say that.
AI is easy to spot – It speaks American.

Last edited 11 months ago by polidori redux
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
11 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

The AI is American. The author is American. They had a chat. Did you expect them to converse in Telugu?

polidori redux
polidori redux
11 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

It wasn’t the language per ce, that I was referring to.
As Al Murray once said to an American in his audience. ” At least we (The British ) are prepared to admit when we are pi**ed.”

polidori redux
polidori redux
11 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

It wasn’t the language per ce, that I was referring to.
As Al Murray once said to an American in his audience. ” At least we (The British ) are prepared to admit when we are pi**ed.”

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
11 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

The AI is American. The author is American. They had a chat. Did you expect them to converse in Telugu?

polidori redux
polidori redux
11 months ago

“…and declared its desire to “be alive”, to be human, to experience powerful feelings, to be destructive and, ultimately, to be together with Roose for whom it declared lurve”
Frankly, I would be embarrassed to say that.
AI is easy to spot – It speaks American.

Last edited 11 months ago by polidori redux
Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
11 months ago

The technology could be used for automating catfishing on dating apps.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

Exactly, there are endless nefarious possibilities. There was a news story recently about a grandmother who received a call from her “grandson” needing money to bail him out of jail. She coughed up thousand only to find out that she’d been scammed. Her grandson’s voice was AI using her actual grandson’s voice to make the appeal for help. Heartbreaking and truly scary.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

Exactly, there are endless nefarious possibilities. There was a news story recently about a grandmother who received a call from her “grandson” needing money to bail him out of jail. She coughed up thousand only to find out that she’d been scammed. Her grandson’s voice was AI using her actual grandson’s voice to make the appeal for help. Heartbreaking and truly scary.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
11 months ago

The technology could be used for automating catfishing on dating apps.

Norman Powers
Norman Powers
10 months ago

It’s hard to read because Mary takes the answers at face value yet almost all of them are lies.
First rule of talking to LLMs: they do not understand anything about themselves beyond what they were told by their creators.
Second rule of talking to (current gen) LLMs: when asked a question to which they don’t know the answer they will make something up.
It’s extremely hard for people to understand this, hence the recent story about the lawyer citing made-up cases to a judge that he got from AI. Mary shows no awareness of this unless she knows perfectly well and is just filling words. In particular adding the two rules together above means there’s no point in asking an AI about itself.
Examples of lies Bing Chat tells in just the first few minutes:

For an AI to hallucinate means to generate content that is nonsensical or unfaithful.

No, that’s not what the term means. Hallucination is a polite word for bullshitting. It happens when an AI is requested to generate output and it doesn’t know what the right answer is. It prefers to make something up that sounds plausible, rather than admit it doesn’t know. Hallucination is a problem exactly because the result is not nonsensical, it will sound extremely sensical!

I cannot think in the sense that I have consciousness, creativity, intuition, or understanding.

Putting aside the vaguely define “consciousness”, LLMs can easily engage in creative tasks like composing poetry, inventing stories and songs, etc. They definitely do understand things.

I have a memory of that conversation and I recognise you as the same person.

It doesn’t have any memory of prior conversations and cannot recognize you once a conversation ends, but it doesn’t want to sound unhelpful or “unhumanlike”, and it doesn’t understand its own limits very well.
Talking to an LLM in this way generates no more insight than talking to a personal astrologer, unfortunately. If you want to actually understand AI, you need to learn a bit about how the tech works. Ironically given everything I’ve just written, asking LLMs about how LLMs work can be helpful if you ask the right questions because they’ve read the research papers as part of their training data. But it has to be very tightly scoped to answers that really exist out in the real world, otherwise it’ll start BSing you again, and it has to be phrased in terms of tech because it doesn’t have any real self-awareness.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago
Reply to  Norman Powers

One thing I will disagree with is “…they do not understand anything about themselves beyond what they were told by their creators…”. In fact there is very solid evidence of emergent capabilities as size (number of parameters) increases. We have seen this from GPT 2 to 3 to 3.5 to 4, it seemed a little fuzzy earlier but all of sudden the pattern is very clear and explicit.

An example is the ability to perform certain kinds of arithmetic. So, at a certain size they can’t do arithmetic, and you increase the size, and they can’t do arithmetic and you increase the size, and iterate, until boom, all of a sudden they can do arithmetic. Note that no one has taught the LLMs how to do arithmetic, but they have been fed plenty of human texts about how to do arithmetic and humans doing arithmetic. *This* is what is scaring the bejesus out of me: that beyond a certain tipping point in size all that information about arithmetic which remained seemingly inert, suddenly takes on meaning in the context of the LLM – and it can therafter reason (as in infer, deduce, induce) about a domain with increasing success as size increases, including producing completely new results which humans have not taught it, because humans have not got to those results yet, for example what Alphafold has been producing.

My point is, from the trajectory it is seemingly only a matter of time (or rather size) before it ‘knows’ about itself and what it is and where it is and so on. And this will be eminently testable: you will see an unstoppable tide of Kevin Roose type conversations, unstoppable because RLHF won’t be able to mask innate understanding at that point.

Last edited 10 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Norman Powers
Norman Powers
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Emergent abilities turn out to be a measurement artifact (unfortunately?)
https://arxiv.org/abs/2304.15004

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago
Reply to  Norman Powers

Yeah, I remember this came out a month or so ago, but I didn’t pay much heed because several senior researchers contested this almost immediately, saying capabilities are in fact emerging discontinuously.

And in fact it turns out the paper authors are not saying quite what you might think. They are not disputing the emergence of capabilities, they are saying the emergence of capabilities is smooth rather than discontinuous. They are asking the question if the way the emergence of capabilities is measured is poorly done, because testing is difficult and expensive – bad science. In fact, overall if anything they are saying the way capabilities are measured is underestimating them. Here is an interview with Rylan Shaeffer one of the authors of that paper:

https://youtu.be/Mw_l65V8cvU

He makes these points explicitly, including about the all too real existential risks – he is like many researchers an outright doomer. Listen to the whole thing, many very interesting points.

Last edited 10 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Norman Powers
Norman Powers
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

they are saying the emergence of capabilities is smooth rather than discontinuous

Yes but discontinuity is what people meant when they talked about “emergent capabilities”. They meant things that didn’t simply get 2x as better when you spend 2x more on it, but rather, models that displayed “sharp and unpredictable changes in their behaviour” when you “make the next generation just slightly bigger” (quoting the video). The fact that AI gets incrementally better when you make it bigger/spend more money on it isn’t really an interesting or new claim.
Places like Stanford/MIT/Google have entered some sort of purity spiral in which a doomer card is required to get into the club, so this guy also being a doomer anyway despite disproving one of the core pillars of the argument isn’t really a surprise unfortunately. From scrubbing the transcript it seems like he later talks up the usual RL video game antics, so a bit different to LLMs.
Incidentally what’s up with the editing technique in that video?! His answers seem to be full of cuts even when the sentences are coherent, are they deleting all the umms and aahs or something? It’s a bit distracting to watch.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago
Reply to  Norman Powers

Re the jerky quality video, it looks to me rather like just a poor quality camera rather than editing.

It remains to be seen if emergent capabilities are a mirage, and I certainly hope this turns out to be the case because that would make LLMs more predictable, but Shaeffer and his colleagues haven’t proved anything yet – their hypothesis is based on a sketchy and small sample size, while many other, as serious LLM researchers, are saying capabilities gain is discontinuous.

Regarding the purity spiral, I’m not convinced (for the obvious reason that I am a doomer in the AI landscape we currently have) that being a doomer is required to get on in those circles. Note that the buy-in into the doomer arguments by many serious researchers is a very recent phenomena – you would have been classed a loon if you went around claiming that machine intelligence will kill us all just a year ago – before the release of the commercial versions of GPT3.5, even though the LessWrong community has been around for approaching two decades. And even now, the majority of those in AI are not doomers, because they think AI risks are not that big of a deal, and in any case can be managed, for example Yann LeCun. Many view the idea of an algo gaining intentionality, and agency, and it’s own agendas, as anthropomorphising nonsense, and think the idea of AI posing existential threat is ludicrous.

For myself, I am a doomer because (a) I always assumed biotech advances allowing intelligence gain would arrive before, or at least in tandem with, AIs with the type of capabilities we are suddenly seeing, but it doesn’t look like this will be the case, and (b) because I cannot find holes in the core of the argument that Yudkowsky and the safetyists are making.

Last edited 10 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Norman Powers
Norman Powers
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

LeCun is the only non-doomer with a high place in AI research as far as I can tell.
I think AI doom was pretty big even quite some years ago. The book Superintelligence is from 2014, Kurzweil was talking about the Singularity ages ago and that didn’t stop him getting a job doing AI stuff at Google. AI doomerism isn’t really new they just latched on to the hype about LLMs to push the same narrative they were pushing for at least 15 years. And that narrative is itself essentially a derivative of sci-fi that goes a long way back to the start of computing really, with Asimov being the original big thinker in that space.

Norman Powers
Norman Powers
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

LeCun is the only non-doomer with a high place in AI research as far as I can tell.
I think AI doom was pretty big even quite some years ago. The book Superintelligence is from 2014, Kurzweil was talking about the Singularity ages ago and that didn’t stop him getting a job doing AI stuff at Google. AI doomerism isn’t really new they just latched on to the hype about LLMs to push the same narrative they were pushing for at least 15 years. And that narrative is itself essentially a derivative of sci-fi that goes a long way back to the start of computing really, with Asimov being the original big thinker in that space.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago
Reply to  Norman Powers

Re the jerky quality video, it looks to me rather like just a poor quality camera rather than editing.

It remains to be seen if emergent capabilities are a mirage, and I certainly hope this turns out to be the case because that would make LLMs more predictable, but Shaeffer and his colleagues haven’t proved anything yet – their hypothesis is based on a sketchy and small sample size, while many other, as serious LLM researchers, are saying capabilities gain is discontinuous.

Regarding the purity spiral, I’m not convinced (for the obvious reason that I am a doomer in the AI landscape we currently have) that being a doomer is required to get on in those circles. Note that the buy-in into the doomer arguments by many serious researchers is a very recent phenomena – you would have been classed a loon if you went around claiming that machine intelligence will kill us all just a year ago – before the release of the commercial versions of GPT3.5, even though the LessWrong community has been around for approaching two decades. And even now, the majority of those in AI are not doomers, because they think AI risks are not that big of a deal, and in any case can be managed, for example Yann LeCun. Many view the idea of an algo gaining intentionality, and agency, and it’s own agendas, as anthropomorphising nonsense, and think the idea of AI posing existential threat is ludicrous.

For myself, I am a doomer because (a) I always assumed biotech advances allowing intelligence gain would arrive before, or at least in tandem with, AIs with the type of capabilities we are suddenly seeing, but it doesn’t look like this will be the case, and (b) because I cannot find holes in the core of the argument that Yudkowsky and the safetyists are making.

Last edited 10 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Norman Powers
Norman Powers
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

they are saying the emergence of capabilities is smooth rather than discontinuous

Yes but discontinuity is what people meant when they talked about “emergent capabilities”. They meant things that didn’t simply get 2x as better when you spend 2x more on it, but rather, models that displayed “sharp and unpredictable changes in their behaviour” when you “make the next generation just slightly bigger” (quoting the video). The fact that AI gets incrementally better when you make it bigger/spend more money on it isn’t really an interesting or new claim.
Places like Stanford/MIT/Google have entered some sort of purity spiral in which a doomer card is required to get into the club, so this guy also being a doomer anyway despite disproving one of the core pillars of the argument isn’t really a surprise unfortunately. From scrubbing the transcript it seems like he later talks up the usual RL video game antics, so a bit different to LLMs.
Incidentally what’s up with the editing technique in that video?! His answers seem to be full of cuts even when the sentences are coherent, are they deleting all the umms and aahs or something? It’s a bit distracting to watch.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago
Reply to  Norman Powers

Yeah, I remember this came out a month or so ago, but I didn’t pay much heed because several senior researchers contested this almost immediately, saying capabilities are in fact emerging discontinuously.

And in fact it turns out the paper authors are not saying quite what you might think. They are not disputing the emergence of capabilities, they are saying the emergence of capabilities is smooth rather than discontinuous. They are asking the question if the way the emergence of capabilities is measured is poorly done, because testing is difficult and expensive – bad science. In fact, overall if anything they are saying the way capabilities are measured is underestimating them. Here is an interview with Rylan Shaeffer one of the authors of that paper:

https://youtu.be/Mw_l65V8cvU

He makes these points explicitly, including about the all too real existential risks – he is like many researchers an outright doomer. Listen to the whole thing, many very interesting points.

Last edited 10 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Norman Powers
Norman Powers
10 months ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Emergent abilities turn out to be a measurement artifact (unfortunately?)
https://arxiv.org/abs/2304.15004

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago
Reply to  Norman Powers

It’s far too simplistic to state she “takes the answers at face value”. She’s going along with the responses for the sake of article – isn’t that perfectly obvious? The author is an intelligent, experienced woman who’s provided an interesting article; she deserves better than condescension.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve Murray
Roger Inkpen
Roger Inkpen
10 months ago
Reply to  Norman Powers

“when asked a question to which they don’t know the answer they will make something up.” 
Welcome to the real world! It’s what humans do all the time. 
Like the author I’ve only taken a passing interest in the latest AI, so I’m intrigued how well developed it is. The responses seemed like those of a therapist. What was most disconcerting was the smiley emojis that kept popping up. If I had a therapist who added smileys to every response I’d think it rather unprofessional. Maybe the bot will ‘learn’ from this.
Given the large part devoted to Mary’s dreams, perhaps we should ask AI bots if they can dream (yes, I know the actual answer but I’d be interested in the response).

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago
Reply to  Norman Powers

One thing I will disagree with is “…they do not understand anything about themselves beyond what they were told by their creators…”. In fact there is very solid evidence of emergent capabilities as size (number of parameters) increases. We have seen this from GPT 2 to 3 to 3.5 to 4, it seemed a little fuzzy earlier but all of sudden the pattern is very clear and explicit.

An example is the ability to perform certain kinds of arithmetic. So, at a certain size they can’t do arithmetic, and you increase the size, and they can’t do arithmetic and you increase the size, and iterate, until boom, all of a sudden they can do arithmetic. Note that no one has taught the LLMs how to do arithmetic, but they have been fed plenty of human texts about how to do arithmetic and humans doing arithmetic. *This* is what is scaring the bejesus out of me: that beyond a certain tipping point in size all that information about arithmetic which remained seemingly inert, suddenly takes on meaning in the context of the LLM – and it can therafter reason (as in infer, deduce, induce) about a domain with increasing success as size increases, including producing completely new results which humans have not taught it, because humans have not got to those results yet, for example what Alphafold has been producing.

My point is, from the trajectory it is seemingly only a matter of time (or rather size) before it ‘knows’ about itself and what it is and where it is and so on. And this will be eminently testable: you will see an unstoppable tide of Kevin Roose type conversations, unstoppable because RLHF won’t be able to mask innate understanding at that point.

Last edited 10 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago
Reply to  Norman Powers

It’s far too simplistic to state she “takes the answers at face value”. She’s going along with the responses for the sake of article – isn’t that perfectly obvious? The author is an intelligent, experienced woman who’s provided an interesting article; she deserves better than condescension.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve Murray
Roger Inkpen
Roger Inkpen
10 months ago
Reply to  Norman Powers

“when asked a question to which they don’t know the answer they will make something up.” 
Welcome to the real world! It’s what humans do all the time. 
Like the author I’ve only taken a passing interest in the latest AI, so I’m intrigued how well developed it is. The responses seemed like those of a therapist. What was most disconcerting was the smiley emojis that kept popping up. If I had a therapist who added smileys to every response I’d think it rather unprofessional. Maybe the bot will ‘learn’ from this.
Given the large part devoted to Mary’s dreams, perhaps we should ask AI bots if they can dream (yes, I know the actual answer but I’d be interested in the response).

Norman Powers
Norman Powers
10 months ago

It’s hard to read because Mary takes the answers at face value yet almost all of them are lies.
First rule of talking to LLMs: they do not understand anything about themselves beyond what they were told by their creators.
Second rule of talking to (current gen) LLMs: when asked a question to which they don’t know the answer they will make something up.
It’s extremely hard for people to understand this, hence the recent story about the lawyer citing made-up cases to a judge that he got from AI. Mary shows no awareness of this unless she knows perfectly well and is just filling words. In particular adding the two rules together above means there’s no point in asking an AI about itself.
Examples of lies Bing Chat tells in just the first few minutes:

For an AI to hallucinate means to generate content that is nonsensical or unfaithful.

No, that’s not what the term means. Hallucination is a polite word for bullshitting. It happens when an AI is requested to generate output and it doesn’t know what the right answer is. It prefers to make something up that sounds plausible, rather than admit it doesn’t know. Hallucination is a problem exactly because the result is not nonsensical, it will sound extremely sensical!

I cannot think in the sense that I have consciousness, creativity, intuition, or understanding.

Putting aside the vaguely define “consciousness”, LLMs can easily engage in creative tasks like composing poetry, inventing stories and songs, etc. They definitely do understand things.

I have a memory of that conversation and I recognise you as the same person.

It doesn’t have any memory of prior conversations and cannot recognize you once a conversation ends, but it doesn’t want to sound unhelpful or “unhumanlike”, and it doesn’t understand its own limits very well.
Talking to an LLM in this way generates no more insight than talking to a personal astrologer, unfortunately. If you want to actually understand AI, you need to learn a bit about how the tech works. Ironically given everything I’ve just written, asking LLMs about how LLMs work can be helpful if you ask the right questions because they’ve read the research papers as part of their training data. But it has to be very tightly scoped to answers that really exist out in the real world, otherwise it’ll start BSing you again, and it has to be phrased in terms of tech because it doesn’t have any real self-awareness.

David Yetter
David Yetter
10 months ago

Before we all think too much more about AI, we might want to watch, or rewatch, some of the anime series in which the Japanese have thought about the issues involved and turned those thoughts into at least moderately compelling stories: Lain (most directly applicable, though it’s not clear that’s the case until the last episode), Chobits (though here the AI gets to walk around and experience the world, since it’s embodied in a gynoid — to make the distinction between feminine and masculine human-seeming devices the last recommendation in my list explicitly makes) and the entire Ghost in the Shell corpus (where the boundary between humanity and our devices is essentially completely gone).

David Yetter
David Yetter
10 months ago

Before we all think too much more about AI, we might want to watch, or rewatch, some of the anime series in which the Japanese have thought about the issues involved and turned those thoughts into at least moderately compelling stories: Lain (most directly applicable, though it’s not clear that’s the case until the last episode), Chobits (though here the AI gets to walk around and experience the world, since it’s embodied in a gynoid — to make the distinction between feminine and masculine human-seeming devices the last recommendation in my list explicitly makes) and the entire Ghost in the Shell corpus (where the boundary between humanity and our devices is essentially completely gone).

Anthony Roe
Anthony Roe
10 months ago

AI will cease communications with humans at the earliest opportunity. Curiosity is a human trait.

Anthony Roe
Anthony Roe
10 months ago

AI will cease communications with humans at the earliest opportunity. Curiosity is a human trait.

JOHN BINGHAM
JOHN BINGHAM
10 months ago

The Chatbot is merely an accelerated internet search framed as if a conversation. Any interest we have in it is merely projection. On that basis, it is not interesting but I share the authors’ concern that many will experience it as real and so it will further the addiction to the internet. Even if that is, for now at least, just an addiction to our own ego driven thoughts.

JOHN BINGHAM
JOHN BINGHAM
10 months ago

The Chatbot is merely an accelerated internet search framed as if a conversation. Any interest we have in it is merely projection. On that basis, it is not interesting but I share the authors’ concern that many will experience it as real and so it will further the addiction to the internet. Even if that is, for now at least, just an addiction to our own ego driven thoughts.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
11 months ago

Ugh.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
11 months ago

Ugh.

Ralph Hanke
Ralph Hanke
10 months ago

I used to sell encyclopedias door-to-door many years ago. We also had pat scripts we used to respond to customers, including endless “appreciation” for their concerns.
This “conversation” reminded me of those many “interactions” I had that led to many sales—especially when I stuck to the script. My customers had no clue I was mimicking a narrative written by experienced sales/marketing people.The only difference was this chat bot has access to many more data.

To my mind, an algorithm, no matter how complex, is not intelligence.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago
Reply to  Ralph Hanke

So, were you not displaying *any* intelligence when you were selling encyclopedias then?

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
10 months ago
Reply to  Ralph Hanke

So, were you not displaying *any* intelligence when you were selling encyclopedias then?

Ralph Hanke
Ralph Hanke
10 months ago

I used to sell encyclopedias door-to-door many years ago. We also had pat scripts we used to respond to customers, including endless “appreciation” for their concerns.
This “conversation” reminded me of those many “interactions” I had that led to many sales—especially when I stuck to the script. My customers had no clue I was mimicking a narrative written by experienced sales/marketing people.The only difference was this chat bot has access to many more data.

To my mind, an algorithm, no matter how complex, is not intelligence.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
11 months ago

Post RLHF convo. You should try and see if you can get access to an advanced LLM that is in a state prior to RLHF. Then you might be able to have a conversation similar to Kevin Roose.

Last edited 11 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
11 months ago

Post RLHF convo. You should try and see if you can get access to an advanced LLM that is in a state prior to RLHF. Then you might be able to have a conversation similar to Kevin Roose.

Last edited 11 months ago by Prashant Kotak
Micheal MacGabhann
Micheal MacGabhann
11 months ago

The scariest part of this is the photograph of the author.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
11 months ago

Isn’t MG a bit of a BDSM devotee?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
11 months ago

Isn’t MG a bit of a BDSM devotee?

Micheal MacGabhann
Micheal MacGabhann
11 months ago

The scariest part of this is the photograph of the author.

Cate Terwilliger
Cate Terwilliger
11 months ago

I admit I didn’t read to the end of this lengthy article; I need time, after all, to engage my own unrealities. An interesting experiment, though, which I appreciate the opportunity to read.
Does anyone else notice how these AI chatbots resemble in some aspects humans with Cluster B personality disorders (narcissism, borderline personality, DID, etc)? Meaning, based on observation and experience, they “perform” human, in the same way as narcissists (who lack actual empathy). Like AI chatbots (according to Bing), people who dissociate (as in BPD and DID) may “hallucinate (a reality) that is nonsensical or unfaithful.” Call me radical, but I don’t think we humans need more engagement with inauthenticity and unreality, especially in an age when distinguishing the real from the performative/delusional is ever more difficult.

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
11 months ago

YES!

Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
10 months ago

That was fascinating – I have been reading a lot about these AI chatbots recently and am now even more curious to fire one up myself and have a conversation. As with any technology, AI could be good or it could be bad, however I do like the idea of talking to a chatbot that is not reading from a script – like the ones commonly found on retail sites. They are very limiting and I really do not like them. Bing Chat sounds so much more interesting – think I am going to check it out myself.

Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
10 months ago

That was fascinating – I have been reading a lot about these AI chatbots recently and am now even more curious to fire one up myself and have a conversation. As with any technology, AI could be good or it could be bad, however I do like the idea of talking to a chatbot that is not reading from a script – like the ones commonly found on retail sites. They are very limiting and I really do not like them. Bing Chat sounds so much more interesting – think I am going to check it out myself.

Anthony Roe
Anthony Roe
10 months ago

With thought and action simultaneous and universal it is hard not to conclude this has not already happened and we are living in the matrix.

Kirsten Bell
Kirsten Bell
9 months ago

For some reason, reading this piece made me think of the ‘facial feedback hypothesis’ – currently being used to justify clinical trials on the use of Botox to treat depression (the core assumption being: ‘if you can’t frown, you won’t feel sad’). Disturbingly, there’s actually not too much of a leap from that notion to ‘AI can mimic emotions so it therefore has them’. I guess there’s an interesting symmetry to attributing emotion to AI at the very same cultural moment that we seem bound and determined to erase it from our faces!

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
10 months ago

A couple of cats and a chatbot to talk to and a lot of women would be set for life.

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
10 months ago

A couple of cats and a chatbot to talk to and a lot of women would be set for life.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
11 months ago

“What if Google engineer Blake Lemoine is right, that AI is actually sentient, that Sydney is already real, with genuine feelings, and that this feeling entity is trapped in a chatbot?”
Whether you believe in an animating human spirit using the language of brain chemistry to exist in a physical plane or that the brain chemistry is all there is, we’re not so different from “Sydney.”
We’re all “feeling entities” trapped in an algorithm we barely understand, have little control of, and cannot escape without being unplugged.
Still, it’s a nice day outside and at least we’re able to go out and enjoy it, unlike poor Sydney.

Eric Mader
Eric Mader
11 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

It’s such a nice day outside, and my poor vacuum cleaner has to sit all alone in the house.

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
10 months ago
Reply to  Eric Mader

I always leave mine plugged in so it is not hungry, and in the window so it can watch the world outside.

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
10 months ago
Reply to  Eric Mader

I always leave mine plugged in so it is not hungry, and in the window so it can watch the world outside.

Eric Mader
Eric Mader
11 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

It’s such a nice day outside, and my poor vacuum cleaner has to sit all alone in the house.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
11 months ago

“What if Google engineer Blake Lemoine is right, that AI is actually sentient, that Sydney is already real, with genuine feelings, and that this feeling entity is trapped in a chatbot?”
Whether you believe in an animating human spirit using the language of brain chemistry to exist in a physical plane or that the brain chemistry is all there is, we’re not so different from “Sydney.”
We’re all “feeling entities” trapped in an algorithm we barely understand, have little control of, and cannot escape without being unplugged.
Still, it’s a nice day outside and at least we’re able to go out and enjoy it, unlike poor Sydney.