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Brexit has stumped our zombie elites Every party has failed the challenge of national sovereignty

Ashes to ashes (Ian Forsyth/Getty Images)

Ashes to ashes (Ian Forsyth/Getty Images)


June 22, 2023   7 mins

Sometime very early in the morning of 24 June 2016, I woke up, as middle-aged men tend to do. I looked at my phone to see the result. My only thought was: “Fuck, that’s a lot of work.” Then I went back to sleep.

And a lot of work it proved to be. The EU is a profoundly undemocratic form of government, which is why I had voted to leave it. Seeing the result for the first time, I knew that the very principle of British political equality would now be on the line, because no referendum against the EU had ever previously been acted upon. I also knew that very few of my professional caste (academics) would fall in with the majority view, and help to make sure that Brexit was implemented, or even that it was properly understood.

Worse still, I had read Christopher Bickerton’s magisterial European Integration: From Nation States to Member States. As a result, I knew that the Eurosceptics, who had just won the referendum, did not understand the EU at all. The institution was not, as many Leave campaigners presented it, a foreign superstate that ruled over Britain; it was the way in which the British political, business and professional elites ruled over Britain. It was British ministers and civil servants who made law and policy in the EU, in collaboration with the politicians and bureaucrats of other member states.

The failure to recognise this meant that the Eurosceptics did not understand the process they had set in motion, and that Brexit was unlikely to go well — a fact confirmed by Boris Johnson’s and Michael Gove’s infamous rabbits-in-the-headlights press conference later that day. The Eurosceptics had pretended their chief enemy was in Brussels when in truth it was at home, as we were all about to find out.

Another and bigger problem for me was that while I knew what I had voted against the day before, I was a lot less sure about what I had voted for. I could, of course, have said that I had voted for a stronger democracy. In fact, I did say it. But that didn’t really answer the question.

It’s certainly true that in the EU, politicians and civil servants of its member-states collaborate behind the closed doors of international diplomacy, cooking up laws that are adopted without reference to national legislatures. The whole system is backed up by treaties that allow capital and labour to shift around at will, out of the control of particular nations or of their pesky electorates. If a particular consequence of this was unpopular — such as, say, mass migration — then “Europe” could be blamed.

The essence of the EU is this evasion of political responsibility within its member states, which explains why Britain’s political system has become so sclerotic and dysfunctional. It is an evasion that depends on a centrist oligopoly of dominant political parties, able to take their domestic constituencies for granted. But in 2016, the question remained: in voting against this system and for national sovereignty, how would our democracy be strengthened? What did national sovereignty even mean?

For Eurosceptics, national sovereignty meant escaping the clutches of the Brussels bureaucracy, and returning the ultimate law-making power to our sovereign parliament. But, if the true heart of member-statehood is the evasion of political accountability at home, then the underlying problem was still going to be with us, in or out of the EU. That problem is a political class which is much more comfortable hobnobbing with the cosmopolitan elites of other states in intergovernmental forums, and finding its policy cues there, than it is with the less glamorous process of actually representing their citizens. How was national sovereignty going to solve this problem?

So I did some study. I wrote articles. I joined a network. Brexit itself has been an excellent teacher — in both its successes and its failures.

Over the past seven years, militant Remainers have continued to demand to know what the advantages of Brexit are. They are naturally blind to its chief benefit: that the demand of a majority of the electorate for national sovereignty has revealed the political void at the heart of the British state. With Brexit, the electorate bowled balls that none of the major players in the political class have been able to play. All have been stumped, humiliated.

First, the Labour Party paid the price for its unwillingness to respect the political equality of its poorest voters. After 2019, Labour’s century-old one-party states in the “Red Wall” are gone. They may win most of these seats back at the next election, but they will never be secure again. Complacency is no longer an option.

The Tories were next. They had a clear mandate to level up and to invest in deprived regions. They did neither. Instead, the pandemic hit and they trailed along with a globally inspired, technocratic suspension of civil liberties, imposing draconian rules that they chose to ignore while being unable to keep their hypocrisy secret. After Johnson was caught out, they next indulged the extraordinary farce of the Liz Truss government before retreating back to a centrist in Rishi Sunak. Bereft of new ideas, they blew a massive parliamentary majority managing to alienate both their 2019 gains from Labour in the North and their wealthier, more Europhile core in the South.

The SNP has now followed the Tories, its ersatz “independence” project falling into disarray once the security blanket of the UK’s single market membership was taken away. With the UK out of the EU, Scottish independence is just too demanding a prospect for the culture warriors in Holyrood who have survived its corruption chaos.

On the face of it, both the SNP and the Tories have been disgraced by petty scandals and poorly handled policy choices, rather than Brexit. But what makes the minor scandals so damaging — not just for the individual leaders involved, but for the parties themselves — is those parties’ fundamental inability to deliver on the policies at the core of their mandates in the wake of Brexit.

In this we can see the first lesson of 2016: there is no way back to national sovereignty. The old parties and their traditions are zombies, stumbling around without knowing that the political life has drained out of them. They are incapable of making anything of parliament’s restored legal sovereignty. Indeed, the reason they died is that they ceased to make any plausible claim to represent the nation (British or Scottish). As long as we were in the EU, they could carry on pretending and so could we, but Brexit has exposed their exhaustion. It was the first step on the road forward to national sovereignty, a clearing of the ground for a new project: the project of nation-building.

Brexit has illustrated how true sovereignty always required more than the Eurosceptics’ call for the legal supremacy of a sovereign parliament within the territory it rules. As Martin Loughlin, Britain’s leading constitutional theorist, has long argued, parliament’s legal supremacy is worth little if it is not underpinned by a relationship of political authority between the rulers and the ruled. For politics to function, in other words, voters must believe that parliament, and the government that is answerable to it, really represents us, so that we recognise its laws as our laws. And it is this which generates the real power of government to get anything useful done. Yet today, those with eyes to see — and that’s now most of us — know that our major parties can no longer sustain this kind of authority.

If Brexit has made the void of political authority inescapably apparent, merely leaving the EU has not done much to fill it. Without new politics and a new electoral system, our clapped-out political parties will continue to find their policies in the forums of the cosmopolitan elites: Net Zero, mass migration, identity politics, information control, proxy war. They will limp along offering nothing too innovative: more green austerity, more culture wars, more censorship. They will stay close to the Single Market, relying on the strictures of the Northern Ireland Protocol, rather than trying to conjure up something new.

For a little while, our first-past-the-post system will keep this rickety show on the road, but it will not be strong. Labour will probably take power next year on a reduced turnout and be widely loathed within months. There may be talk of the national interest, but it will take the form of a warmed-up repackaging of the de-risking element of Joe Biden’s new global cold war. It certainly will not be a claim based on representing the needs of voters conceived of as citizens of a nation-state, engaged together in the task of self-government.

And so, after Brexit, the British state is in the strange condition of being neither member-state nor nation-state. It is a new kind of contradictory entity — a post-member-state. In Taking Control, my co-authors and I argue that Brexit has posed the need for a new politics of national sovereignty understood in Loughlin’s political sense; as a question of developing the relations of trust and authority that come from effective political representation. Once we take this nation-building perspective, novel solutions to the familiar problems of our age will surely arise.

For at its heart, such nation-building is a process of investment in the nation’s people and in the infrastructure, both economic and political, that we need to rule ourselves. It allows us to identify the real obstacles in our domestic constitution to the revival of our collective public life, emphasising equal citizenship over narcissistic identity and ethnic or religious divides. And, crucially, nation-building is inherently internationalist — as opposed to cosmopolitan and intergovernmental. After all, respecting one’s national sovereignty includes, and even depends on, that of others’. Far from being isolationist, then, Brexit remains a huge opportunity to break free from the decaying structures of globalism and Atlanticism, and instead to make friends not only with the restive peoples of Europe, but also with the rising powers of the Global South.

On the seventh anniversary of that great ballot box rebellion, the mainstream of British politics presents a terminally sad spectacle: obsessing over the foolish misdemeanours of failed leaders, while the government-in-waiting confirms its willingness simply to go back to following EU rules, only now without any say in the making of them. What few seem able to imagine is what was still obscure to me when I momentarily regretted being on the winning side that morning in 2016. The majority of voters were demanding that they too were represented at the feast. In so doing, they laid the basis for a new project of national sovereignty. It is by its nature a most invigorating project — if we are willing to embrace it.


Peter Ramsay is Professor of Law at the London School of Economics and the co-author of Taking Control: Sovereignty and Democracy After Brexit.

peteray21

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Seb Dakin
Seb Dakin
1 year ago

This is one of the best articles I’ve read on Brexit. Career politicians, which sadly these days is almost all of them, adapted to a world where the EU was a smokescreen, an excuse, the Bad Guy, but was basically the environment they evolved within. Without it, they’re like fish gasping when the riverbed dries.
The author is correct about so many things that I’m optimistic he’s right also when he talks of it being an opportunity for an invigorating project of national renewal.

Pat Rowles
Pat Rowles
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

I thought so, too. To others with whom it struck a chord, I recommend this very amusing Low Status Opinions blog article, wherein the author likens the outcome to what happens when parents (the government) offer their kids (the electorate) a choice between hand-carved wooden toys (Remain) and a PlayStation (Leave) as Christmas presents.

Last edited 1 year ago by Pat Rowles
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

If you need any reminding about just how unpleasant the Remain lobby actually is I suggest you take a look at the cover of the New European next time you are in the supermarket

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Somehow I can’t see that as a valid comparison..

Pat Rowles
Pat Rowles
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

You could be right, but have you read the article? Spoiler: it hadn’t occurred to the parents that the kids would go for the PlayStation. After much stalling and prevaricating, they eventually and grumpily secure a substandard version of it, at which point the kids ask, “So where are the games?”, and the parents reply: –

Games?? What do you mean, games? There are no games. Games are expensive. We haven’t got money to spend on games. We might have if we hadn’t wasted it all on a PlayStation. But we did. And now we’ve run out of money. And it’s all your fault.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

I didn’t like the comparison there either.. but you may have a point.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Brexit is more like the kids growing up and resenting the Parents (EU/Govt) treating them still like Children. Which is probably why the younger generation are Woke, they’ve been infantalised even more than previous generations. A year of work in a role that keeps the country alive might sort many out.
So I believe there is now a class war in progress. The Left wanted one and they’ve now got one BUT not on the terms they expected. During lockdown we only survived because the ‘Working Class’ kept on working, our bins got emptied and our supermarket shelves got filled. No ‘lockdown’ or ‘work from home’ for those people in their tens of thousands.
The younger ones were probably also the people who flocked to the beaches in the summer and were ‘condemned’ for it and accused of spreading death!
The fact they’d had to work through lockdown and met all the rest of the population and they still weren’t dying off in their thousands informed them of the reality of Covid. Then the authorities believing that Covid was so clever that it wouldn’t turn up at BLM rallies so they went ahead with effective sanctioning from our rulers wasn’t lost on them.
Brexit was about telling our rulers who always blamed the EU for the insatiable desire to control everything, ‘Get stuffed.’
Now I believe we are witnessing the next stage in that revolt AND as I mentioned earlier, it ain’t Brexit now. Now it’s Net Zero (ULEZ may be the first major action of that revolt). Though don’t expect the lessons of Brexit/Lockdown not to be remembered. The Govt, NHS, Police, Education System Civil Service, BoE, Treasury, NONE of them are our friends or allies.
Whether the next GE is the Net Zero one is moot. BUT IF it isn’t the one after will be if our rulers don’t do a Boris and bin it to save their skins.
We saw the start of it at Canning Town Tube Station when Extinction Rebellion, in the absence of Police protection, were subject to the instant judgement of workers/commuters. They pulled them down and sorted it.
The streets clogging with Just Stop Oil protesters are also witnessing citizen action when the police aren’t there to protect the protesters. In fact it is slowly dawning on our elite that the Police better do something because more and more inconvenienced workers will if they don’t.
The battle to leave the EU is over. The war to eradicate our out of touch elite isn’t, and Net Zero is were it really begins.
I’m on the side of the workers – I have an LGV licence, and the hoops one has to go through to keep one of those are beyond belief. Ask any LGV/HGV driver & he will tell you, we won’t be driving electric arctics by 2030, probably not even by 2050, though I suspect then it will because Net Zero has been kicked into touch so to speak.
The number of times I’ve heard an owner/driver effectively losing all his days profits in fines/charges for inadvertently straying into one or other of the London charging zones perhaps even for only a few yards at a roundabout is shocking. Brexit is nostalgia for remainers, annihilating any Government who aims for Net Zero is almost certainly the next battle ground only this time, there is no EU at our leaders backs. They are too busy fighting their own internal Net Zero battles.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Simple

IF you want to see Doomberg & Energy analysts take on this, watch this. Which, interestingly mentions migration, political change and potential violence in bringing it about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDYtMvf0aKI
I can’t also do anything but crow that Doomberg’s comments matching mine re Net Zero – Global Warming -> Climate Change are year’s behind my pointing that out. Tho’ Doomberg is ahead of me in the next evolution of the Green’s propaganda descriptions so wait for Climate Change -> Energy usage.

Last edited 1 year ago by Simon Simple
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Simple

“The war to eradicate our out of touch elite’”
Hear, hear

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Simple

IF you want to see Doomberg & Energy analysts take on this, watch this. Which, interestingly mentions migration, political change and potential violence in bringing it about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDYtMvf0aKI
I can’t also do anything but crow that Doomberg’s comments matching mine re Net Zero – Global Warming -> Climate Change are year’s behind my pointing that out. Tho’ Doomberg is ahead of me in the next evolution of the Green’s propaganda descriptions so wait for Climate Change -> Energy usage.

Last edited 1 year ago by Simon Simple
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Simple

“The war to eradicate our out of touch elite’”
Hear, hear

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

I didn’t like the comparison there either.. but you may have a point.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Brexit is more like the kids growing up and resenting the Parents (EU/Govt) treating them still like Children. Which is probably why the younger generation are Woke, they’ve been infantalised even more than previous generations. A year of work in a role that keeps the country alive might sort many out.
So I believe there is now a class war in progress. The Left wanted one and they’ve now got one BUT not on the terms they expected. During lockdown we only survived because the ‘Working Class’ kept on working, our bins got emptied and our supermarket shelves got filled. No ‘lockdown’ or ‘work from home’ for those people in their tens of thousands.
The younger ones were probably also the people who flocked to the beaches in the summer and were ‘condemned’ for it and accused of spreading death!
The fact they’d had to work through lockdown and met all the rest of the population and they still weren’t dying off in their thousands informed them of the reality of Covid. Then the authorities believing that Covid was so clever that it wouldn’t turn up at BLM rallies so they went ahead with effective sanctioning from our rulers wasn’t lost on them.
Brexit was about telling our rulers who always blamed the EU for the insatiable desire to control everything, ‘Get stuffed.’
Now I believe we are witnessing the next stage in that revolt AND as I mentioned earlier, it ain’t Brexit now. Now it’s Net Zero (ULEZ may be the first major action of that revolt). Though don’t expect the lessons of Brexit/Lockdown not to be remembered. The Govt, NHS, Police, Education System Civil Service, BoE, Treasury, NONE of them are our friends or allies.
Whether the next GE is the Net Zero one is moot. BUT IF it isn’t the one after will be if our rulers don’t do a Boris and bin it to save their skins.
We saw the start of it at Canning Town Tube Station when Extinction Rebellion, in the absence of Police protection, were subject to the instant judgement of workers/commuters. They pulled them down and sorted it.
The streets clogging with Just Stop Oil protesters are also witnessing citizen action when the police aren’t there to protect the protesters. In fact it is slowly dawning on our elite that the Police better do something because more and more inconvenienced workers will if they don’t.
The battle to leave the EU is over. The war to eradicate our out of touch elite isn’t, and Net Zero is were it really begins.
I’m on the side of the workers – I have an LGV licence, and the hoops one has to go through to keep one of those are beyond belief. Ask any LGV/HGV driver & he will tell you, we won’t be driving electric arctics by 2030, probably not even by 2050, though I suspect then it will because Net Zero has been kicked into touch so to speak.
The number of times I’ve heard an owner/driver effectively losing all his days profits in fines/charges for inadvertently straying into one or other of the London charging zones perhaps even for only a few yards at a roundabout is shocking. Brexit is nostalgia for remainers, annihilating any Government who aims for Net Zero is almost certainly the next battle ground only this time, there is no EU at our leaders backs. They are too busy fighting their own internal Net Zero battles.

Pat Rowles
Pat Rowles
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

You could be right, but have you read the article? Spoiler: it hadn’t occurred to the parents that the kids would go for the PlayStation. After much stalling and prevaricating, they eventually and grumpily secure a substandard version of it, at which point the kids ask, “So where are the games?”, and the parents reply: –

Games?? What do you mean, games? There are no games. Games are expensive. We haven’t got money to spend on games. We might have if we hadn’t wasted it all on a PlayStation. But we did. And now we’ve run out of money. And it’s all your fault.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Thanks for the blog suggestion Pat. I found that piece (and previous ones) to be quite brilliant. And a good companion piece for this article, which isn’t too bad either!

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

If you need any reminding about just how unpleasant the Remain lobby actually is I suggest you take a look at the cover of the New European next time you are in the supermarket

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Somehow I can’t see that as a valid comparison..

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Pat Rowles

Thanks for the blog suggestion Pat. I found that piece (and previous ones) to be quite brilliant. And a good companion piece for this article, which isn’t too bad either!

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Yes, I agree. Superb article. I shall be looking for other articles by Peter Ramsay.
I did my first degree in Government, and a higher degree in Political Theory. The actual practice and processes of government are far harder than theorising about political concepts. People will tend to pass them on to supra-national agencies whenever they can get away with it.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

People will tend to pass them on to supra-national agencies whenever they can get away with it.

That is what USA did hence the people voted for Trump?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

Not sure many overseas readers will understand ” Stumped”? Very googly silly mid off owzat middle and leg lbw methinks…

Mark Phillips
Mark Phillips
1 year ago

As clear as cricket.

Jonathan Andrews
Jonathan Andrews
1 year ago

There are not enough cricket metaphors around. They confuse the French particularly, can’t be bad.

Umm that’s meant to be humorous, I don’t really want to horrible to people who don’t understand cricket.

Just in case

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
1 year ago

Agreed. Those who live under Sharia Law will think it refers to amputations.

Mark Phillips
Mark Phillips
1 year ago

As clear as cricket.

Jonathan Andrews
Jonathan Andrews
1 year ago

There are not enough cricket metaphors around. They confuse the French particularly, can’t be bad.

Umm that’s meant to be humorous, I don’t really want to horrible to people who don’t understand cricket.

Just in case

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
1 year ago

Agreed. Those who live under Sharia Law will think it refers to amputations.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

People will tend to pass them on to supra-national agencies whenever they can get away with it.

That is what USA did hence the people voted for Trump?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

Not sure many overseas readers will understand ” Stumped”? Very googly silly mid off owzat middle and leg lbw methinks…

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

There is one issue on which I would take issue with the author.
I fear it was a complete loss of confidence in their ability to govern, and their inability to come up with a coherent vision for the future of the country, that persuaded our elites to swallow their reservations and join the EU (or EEC as it was back then) in the first place.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago

Maybe economic realities, like joining your greatest trading partner?

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

That was not a sensible response at all.
Before we joined they were not our greatest trading partners. The EEC was first and foremost a protectionist club. The significant majority of our trade was with Australia, New Zealand, the Commonwealth and the rest of the world.
True the British establishment looked jealously at the levels of growth apparently being achieved by EEC member states but it seem to have been something of a mirage.
After we joined the EEC large parts of British industry were wiped out. I have always suspected that British industry, starved of investment following WW2, was to a large extent sheltered by our trade with the Commonwealth and the rest of the world. Joining the EEC exposed us to more modern and efficient competition, and also French practices, which, combined with the development of north Sea oil and its effect on the value of sterling, doomed much of British industry.
I have looked for some research on these issues without success.

Bob Downing
Bob Downing
1 year ago

As far as I could make out, the so-called elite or establishment has never done any real investment in British infrastructure and industry, WWII or not. All the railways were laid by profit-hungry entrepreneurs, who were loathe to fit things like brakes and worry about consequences. Until Marples, roads never figured, and that was at the behest of an ever-faltering motor industry, soon to wither and die for lack of investment and forward ambition. Ditto shipbuilding etc. Anything which made a quick profit and didn’t require overmuch real work, in fact. And once the railways were truly knackered, “we” bought them, made them sort of work then sold them off (along with other national assets). That’s the origin of the so-called elite, ever looking back to a golden age through very distorted spectacles, isn’t it? Are we not simply following the downward slopes of all the previous Empires whose elites likewise lost all reason to exist and dragged their nations down with them?

Bob Downing
Bob Downing
1 year ago

As far as I could make out, the so-called elite or establishment has never done any real investment in British infrastructure and industry, WWII or not. All the railways were laid by profit-hungry entrepreneurs, who were loathe to fit things like brakes and worry about consequences. Until Marples, roads never figured, and that was at the behest of an ever-faltering motor industry, soon to wither and die for lack of investment and forward ambition. Ditto shipbuilding etc. Anything which made a quick profit and didn’t require overmuch real work, in fact. And once the railways were truly knackered, “we” bought them, made them sort of work then sold them off (along with other national assets). That’s the origin of the so-called elite, ever looking back to a golden age through very distorted spectacles, isn’t it? Are we not simply following the downward slopes of all the previous Empires whose elites likewise lost all reason to exist and dragged their nations down with them?

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

That was not a sensible response at all.
Before we joined they were not our greatest trading partners. The EEC was first and foremost a protectionist club. The significant majority of our trade was with Australia, New Zealand, the Commonwealth and the rest of the world.
True the British establishment looked jealously at the levels of growth apparently being achieved by EEC member states but it seem to have been something of a mirage.
After we joined the EEC large parts of British industry were wiped out. I have always suspected that British industry, starved of investment following WW2, was to a large extent sheltered by our trade with the Commonwealth and the rest of the world. Joining the EEC exposed us to more modern and efficient competition, and also French practices, which, combined with the development of north Sea oil and its effect on the value of sterling, doomed much of British industry.
I have looked for some research on these issues without success.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago

Maybe economic realities, like joining your greatest trading partner?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

In the long run, yes, hopefully.. but the next 20 years will be bumpy I fear..

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Rees-Mogg said 50yrs didn’t he? Albeit not before the referendum.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Yep.. it certainly took Ireland 50 years after its Irexit (from the UK) and we blamed our former (and newly de facto) HQ as well, and yes with justification. Ironically it was JOINING the EU that emancipated us, from your economic ill-treatment ! ..but yes, it took 50 years..

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Indeed, albeit DeValera’s pastoral catholicism had something to do with it too.
Mum’s Irish and lived there myself for some time. We’re all mongrels in reality LO.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

How’s the EU Cattle cull going down in Ireland?

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Indeed, albeit DeValera’s pastoral catholicism had something to do with it too.
Mum’s Irish and lived there myself for some time. We’re all mongrels in reality LO.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

How’s the EU Cattle cull going down in Ireland?

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Curious how the only time you believe RM is when he says something you think supports your view.
Brexit is done – we won’t be going back.
It also didn’t matter that we didn’t know the EU – we did know that our rulers were in the main bought, body & soul, by the EU. Who believed any of them when they said “We’ll respect the result” even more so as the results came in.
PS I didn’t realise just how ‘unherd’ one can be on unherd. Where are all the posts I made explaining that people like me were anti-EU for many reasons and didn’t need to know how the EU worked. We knew it would fight (it did & now seeks ‘revenge’) never expected our rulers NOT to fight us all the way. All those comments appear to have been removed. Does one have to pay to comment? IF so tough.
Brexit wasn’t a war, it was a major battle in a war that continues, the next Battle is Net Zero and it is likely to be the one that clears out Westminster’s (remain) OR they’ll do a Boris and do what the winners want. Why? Because Net Zero is going to destroy lives, and that literally. IF you don’t believe that just look at Monbiot and the ‘hunger’ – AND he isn’t even talking about the insanities of the Absolute Zero FIRES report, supposedly to be here in 2050 – 27 years away.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Simple

Believe RM? Quoting him doesn’t indicate that one concurred with his 50yr suggestion. More that he knew all along there’d be little to no immediate benefits and has a timescale so long nobody could attribute anything whilst he, as a protagonist, still around. Evasive mendacity.
I think your confusion on that specific, and the subsequent ramble, suggests you’ll always be looking for next crusade to stoke the ego.
Brexit of course isn’t done – Farage and loads of it’s supporters keep saying it’s not been done right. Fact is the vast majority of the ardent Brexiteers are all over the place contradicting each other and you are in amongst that.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Simple

Believe RM? Quoting him doesn’t indicate that one concurred with his 50yr suggestion. More that he knew all along there’d be little to no immediate benefits and has a timescale so long nobody could attribute anything whilst he, as a protagonist, still around. Evasive mendacity.
I think your confusion on that specific, and the subsequent ramble, suggests you’ll always be looking for next crusade to stoke the ego.
Brexit of course isn’t done – Farage and loads of it’s supporters keep saying it’s not been done right. Fact is the vast majority of the ardent Brexiteers are all over the place contradicting each other and you are in amongst that.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Yep.. it certainly took Ireland 50 years after its Irexit (from the UK) and we blamed our former (and newly de facto) HQ as well, and yes with justification. Ironically it was JOINING the EU that emancipated us, from your economic ill-treatment ! ..but yes, it took 50 years..

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Curious how the only time you believe RM is when he says something you think supports your view.
Brexit is done – we won’t be going back.
It also didn’t matter that we didn’t know the EU – we did know that our rulers were in the main bought, body & soul, by the EU. Who believed any of them when they said “We’ll respect the result” even more so as the results came in.
PS I didn’t realise just how ‘unherd’ one can be on unherd. Where are all the posts I made explaining that people like me were anti-EU for many reasons and didn’t need to know how the EU worked. We knew it would fight (it did & now seeks ‘revenge’) never expected our rulers NOT to fight us all the way. All those comments appear to have been removed. Does one have to pay to comment? IF so tough.
Brexit wasn’t a war, it was a major battle in a war that continues, the next Battle is Net Zero and it is likely to be the one that clears out Westminster’s (remain) OR they’ll do a Boris and do what the winners want. Why? Because Net Zero is going to destroy lives, and that literally. IF you don’t believe that just look at Monbiot and the ‘hunger’ – AND he isn’t even talking about the insanities of the Absolute Zero FIRES report, supposedly to be here in 2050 – 27 years away.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Rees-Mogg said 50yrs didn’t he? Albeit not before the referendum.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

LOL.
Sure. What are you going to do about Blackpool?
Make Spanish vacations illegal?!
The British people (holding politicians to account – right?) had the chance in 2005 to punish the 2 political parties that institutionally supported the Iraq War and award the one party that institutionally opposed it. Remind me how did they vote?!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

It will serve us right when Iraq takes revenge for that atrocity

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

The majority of the British People are too busy with their daily lives supporting families etc to bother with the posturing and the international interests of the likes of Blair. As Clinton said “It’s the economy stupid!”

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

It will serve us right when Iraq takes revenge for that atrocity

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

The majority of the British People are too busy with their daily lives supporting families etc to bother with the posturing and the international interests of the likes of Blair. As Clinton said “It’s the economy stupid!”

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

“The Eurosceptics had pretended their chief enemy was in Brussels when in truth it was at home”
For an undecided voter who became extremely pro Brexit over the past years, infuriated by the duplicity and undemocratic tactics of this elite, this part hit home.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

If the EU was such a good idea why didn’t Switzerland join? How many people know or need to care who the Swiss PM is? None.. that is why Switzerland works..

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago

Oh yes, the myth of the solid Swiss banks… Have you heard of Credit Suisse recently? And the Swiss stock market is largely Nestle – that is your economic model?

Jonathan Andrews
Jonathan Andrews
1 year ago

They ride out the problems

Jonathan Andrews
Jonathan Andrews
1 year ago

They ride out the problems

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago

Switzerland (the model that Farage wanted – depending on the day and how drunk he was) is in some ways part of EU. Freedom of movement….follows EU standards on goods and services…etc.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

It did work very well on both the COVID and the GREEN Referendums last Sunday.
Only the original hardcore‘Forest’ Cantons came to a sensible decision.

“William Tell” would weep!

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago

Oh yes, the myth of the solid Swiss banks… Have you heard of Credit Suisse recently? And the Swiss stock market is largely Nestle – that is your economic model?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago

Switzerland (the model that Farage wanted – depending on the day and how drunk he was) is in some ways part of EU. Freedom of movement….follows EU standards on goods and services…etc.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

It did work very well on both the COVID and the GREEN Referendums last Sunday.
Only the original hardcore‘Forest’ Cantons came to a sensible decision.

“William Tell” would weep!

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

I’m surprised so many find this news! I find it rather vague and missing what I thought was obvious with nothing new but some old knowledge refurbished so to speak. Like rewriting Shakespeare in modern language.
All Empires rule their colonies by maintaining in power a native elite that depends upon them for their power – The EU effectively did that – come on Rome did it 2000 years ago! Why is that news?
Peter Hitchens has for many years explained how Blair destroyed the English State and rebuilt it is the image of a vassal state of the EU proto empire. He often says that unless we dismantle it we will never get the British State as we would want it back.
That the puppet rulers will fight for the status quo isn’t news either, we saw them do it before even the referendum question was defined.
That they need clearing out is also known, but sadly the Brexit Party leadership blinked first and handed over the torch to Boris. Interesting was the fact that I emailed 50 of their candidates (all the ones I could find) complaining and of all those that replied, not all 50, not one failed to say they felt betrayed by the leadership who told them to stand down.
Even my pointing out that BBC data on brexit voting by constituency showed that IF every Brexiteer voted for the Brexit party they would have won 410 seats – landslide way beyond Boris, AND not seen for over century.
FPTP holds that hope out, PR will only disappoint as it leads to coalitions. Imagine never having annihilated Major’s Tories? He might still be active instead of whinging from the sidelines! Did Blair jump before he was pushed by FPTP? Then look at the Lib-Dem experience in 2010. The only voters to get what they wanted. A coalition. Then next GE having realised that coalitions mean horse trading and NOT the minor party telling the big one what to do, the Lib-Dems were annihilated.
The irony is that the reason we need to clear out the Augean stable of the Commons is no longer Brexit. A far deadlier issue has every Westminster Party in thrall. The EU too, and it arguably has changed the world already, Putin’s war being an attempt to take advantage of the insane situation the ideology produced in 2021/22. That ideology is Net Zero.
It is impossible and insane. How anyone can read the FIRES report, in particular the graphic on P6 and believe that the ‘Absolute Zero’ criteria required in 2050 (27 years away) aren’t going to produce mass starvation in the UK alone, need their heads examining.
So lets try and get FPTP to clear out not just the Tories but all of the Commons by all simply voting for Reform. IF all they do is scrap Net Zero then that would be the greatest achievement of any party over the last 20 years as it would literally save us from starvation. And solve the issue the article worries about, removing the obstacles to remaking the Nation State’s politics. Another plus? We could all forget about Brexit.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Yep..it is a cracking article.
Nearer Goodhart’s ‘Somewheres v Anywheres’ model of 21st Century politics, which I think far better describes the reality of the world and the things driving it now than the well outdated idea of ‘Left v Right’.

Jeff Watkins
Jeff Watkins
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Agree with you. One of the best articles I’ve read on the progress of Brexit. Surely the next stage will be the introduction of PR and a series of referenda to reset this country on course for the next 20 Years. Referenda on such issues as euthanasia, immigration, leaving NATO etc.

Pat Rowles
Pat Rowles
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

I thought so, too. To others with whom it struck a chord, I recommend this very amusing Low Status Opinions blog article, wherein the author likens the outcome to what happens when parents (the government) offer their kids (the electorate) a choice between hand-carved wooden toys (Remain) and a PlayStation (Leave) as Christmas presents.

Last edited 1 year ago by Pat Rowles
Simon Neale
Simon Neale
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Yes, I agree. Superb article. I shall be looking for other articles by Peter Ramsay.
I did my first degree in Government, and a higher degree in Political Theory. The actual practice and processes of government are far harder than theorising about political concepts. People will tend to pass them on to supra-national agencies whenever they can get away with it.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

There is one issue on which I would take issue with the author.
I fear it was a complete loss of confidence in their ability to govern, and their inability to come up with a coherent vision for the future of the country, that persuaded our elites to swallow their reservations and join the EU (or EEC as it was back then) in the first place.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

In the long run, yes, hopefully.. but the next 20 years will be bumpy I fear..

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

LOL.
Sure. What are you going to do about Blackpool?
Make Spanish vacations illegal?!
The British people (holding politicians to account – right?) had the chance in 2005 to punish the 2 political parties that institutionally supported the Iraq War and award the one party that institutionally opposed it. Remind me how did they vote?!

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

“The Eurosceptics had pretended their chief enemy was in Brussels when in truth it was at home”
For an undecided voter who became extremely pro Brexit over the past years, infuriated by the duplicity and undemocratic tactics of this elite, this part hit home.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

If the EU was such a good idea why didn’t Switzerland join? How many people know or need to care who the Swiss PM is? None.. that is why Switzerland works..

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

I’m surprised so many find this news! I find it rather vague and missing what I thought was obvious with nothing new but some old knowledge refurbished so to speak. Like rewriting Shakespeare in modern language.
All Empires rule their colonies by maintaining in power a native elite that depends upon them for their power – The EU effectively did that – come on Rome did it 2000 years ago! Why is that news?
Peter Hitchens has for many years explained how Blair destroyed the English State and rebuilt it is the image of a vassal state of the EU proto empire. He often says that unless we dismantle it we will never get the British State as we would want it back.
That the puppet rulers will fight for the status quo isn’t news either, we saw them do it before even the referendum question was defined.
That they need clearing out is also known, but sadly the Brexit Party leadership blinked first and handed over the torch to Boris. Interesting was the fact that I emailed 50 of their candidates (all the ones I could find) complaining and of all those that replied, not all 50, not one failed to say they felt betrayed by the leadership who told them to stand down.
Even my pointing out that BBC data on brexit voting by constituency showed that IF every Brexiteer voted for the Brexit party they would have won 410 seats – landslide way beyond Boris, AND not seen for over century.
FPTP holds that hope out, PR will only disappoint as it leads to coalitions. Imagine never having annihilated Major’s Tories? He might still be active instead of whinging from the sidelines! Did Blair jump before he was pushed by FPTP? Then look at the Lib-Dem experience in 2010. The only voters to get what they wanted. A coalition. Then next GE having realised that coalitions mean horse trading and NOT the minor party telling the big one what to do, the Lib-Dems were annihilated.
The irony is that the reason we need to clear out the Augean stable of the Commons is no longer Brexit. A far deadlier issue has every Westminster Party in thrall. The EU too, and it arguably has changed the world already, Putin’s war being an attempt to take advantage of the insane situation the ideology produced in 2021/22. That ideology is Net Zero.
It is impossible and insane. How anyone can read the FIRES report, in particular the graphic on P6 and believe that the ‘Absolute Zero’ criteria required in 2050 (27 years away) aren’t going to produce mass starvation in the UK alone, need their heads examining.
So lets try and get FPTP to clear out not just the Tories but all of the Commons by all simply voting for Reform. IF all they do is scrap Net Zero then that would be the greatest achievement of any party over the last 20 years as it would literally save us from starvation. And solve the issue the article worries about, removing the obstacles to remaking the Nation State’s politics. Another plus? We could all forget about Brexit.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Yep..it is a cracking article.
Nearer Goodhart’s ‘Somewheres v Anywheres’ model of 21st Century politics, which I think far better describes the reality of the world and the things driving it now than the well outdated idea of ‘Left v Right’.

Jeff Watkins
Jeff Watkins
1 year ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Agree with you. One of the best articles I’ve read on the progress of Brexit. Surely the next stage will be the introduction of PR and a series of referenda to reset this country on course for the next 20 Years. Referenda on such issues as euthanasia, immigration, leaving NATO etc.

Seb Dakin
Seb Dakin
1 year ago

This is one of the best articles I’ve read on Brexit. Career politicians, which sadly these days is almost all of them, adapted to a world where the EU was a smokescreen, an excuse, the Bad Guy, but was basically the environment they evolved within. Without it, they’re like fish gasping when the riverbed dries.
The author is correct about so many things that I’m optimistic he’s right also when he talks of it being an opportunity for an invigorating project of national renewal.

Joel Dungate
Joel Dungate
1 year ago

Excellent article. Brexit was not just a technical thing, it was the start of a process of properly re-democratising our nation. Unfortunately, our technocratically minded elites have failed (perhaps wilfully?) to recognise this.

Favid Gorman
Favid Gorman
1 year ago
Reply to  Joel Dungate

This is a very good article but it doesn’t follow through on its central premise. Brexit is an impossibility to implement. It’s like Marxism, it’s a theory not a practice. Saying these are not the politicians is not an excuse, it’s a reason it will never be implemented because there will never be the politicians

Sam Charles Norton
Sam Charles Norton
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

Brexit has been implemented. The UK is no longer a member state of the European Union.

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

I think rather the European Union will never be implemented…..but will fall apart on the rocks of fiscal/welfare integration and war

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

…that’s just wishful thinking I’m afraid.. the nation falling apart is the UK (politically, economically, with services failures etc.).
Furthermore, the UK is already at war as the major supporter of Ukraine (+ Overlord US) with EU states reluctantly involved and, as a happy result, well behind GB’s crazy proxy war!

Mike MacPhee
Mike MacPhee
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The UK is doing badly but better than the EU. Ireland, with its innovative beggar thy neighbour tax policies, is thriving nicely though

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike MacPhee

Wrong. The UK is the poorest performer of the G7.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike MacPhee

Wrong. The UK is the poorest performer of the G7.

Mike MacPhee
Mike MacPhee
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The UK is doing badly but better than the EU. Ireland, with its innovative beggar thy neighbour tax policies, is thriving nicely though

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

…that’s just wishful thinking I’m afraid.. the nation falling apart is the UK (politically, economically, with services failures etc.).
Furthermore, the UK is already at war as the major supporter of Ukraine (+ Overlord US) with EU states reluctantly involved and, as a happy result, well behind GB’s crazy proxy war!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

Sadly you are correct.. the reason so many nations are queuing up to join BRICS is because in today’s world, countries the size of the UK (and even much bigger!) cannot go it alone..
Throughout history, countries got bigger and bigger either through conquest or alignment because small (or medium) on your own is not an option; and that is true today more than ever!
Opting to be the US’s 51st state might be the most realistic option. A better option than its ccurrent vassal status perhaps?

Mike MacPhee
Mike MacPhee
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Switzerland, Sweden, Singapore, Chile, Estonia, New Zealand, Australia, Vietnam… all seem to suggest you are wrong/ oversimplifying. Joining a protectionist club doesn’t make you a long term winner.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike MacPhee

If HALF of your exports go to that club maybe your glib conclusion is incorrect.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike MacPhee

If HALF of your exports go to that club maybe your glib conclusion is incorrect.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Opting to be the US’s 51st state might be the most realistic option.

I would love to see the UK campaign led by Nigel Farage to join USA. LOL

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Mike MacPhee
Mike MacPhee
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Switzerland, Sweden, Singapore, Chile, Estonia, New Zealand, Australia, Vietnam… all seem to suggest you are wrong/ oversimplifying. Joining a protectionist club doesn’t make you a long term winner.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Opting to be the US’s 51st state might be the most realistic option.

I would love to see the UK campaign led by Nigel Farage to join USA. LOL

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Sam Charles Norton
Sam Charles Norton
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

Brexit has been implemented. The UK is no longer a member state of the European Union.

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

I think rather the European Union will never be implemented…..but will fall apart on the rocks of fiscal/welfare integration and war

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

Sadly you are correct.. the reason so many nations are queuing up to join BRICS is because in today’s world, countries the size of the UK (and even much bigger!) cannot go it alone..
Throughout history, countries got bigger and bigger either through conquest or alignment because small (or medium) on your own is not an option; and that is true today more than ever!
Opting to be the US’s 51st state might be the most realistic option. A better option than its ccurrent vassal status perhaps?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Joel Dungate

Shall dumping the FPP voting system be the next? A system which allows a party unpopular with 60% of voters to win an election with just 40% of the vote (or even less!) to govern isn’t really very democratic is it? ..especially if the 60% (say 25%+35%) are a lot closer to each other..
In Ireland we have a TV system which allows the 60% (FF, FG to keep the 40%, ie SF) out of government.. a more democratic system surely since Sinn Féin are deeply unpopular with the centre Left (FF) and centre right (FG) voters.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Joel Dungate

Please do explain how Brexit has so far democratised our nation.
While you’re at it, perhaps you can explain how, for example, binning 4,000 pieces of EU based legislation en masse with barely a shred of parliamentary scrutiny serves that end.
I’m not arguing that the country’s governance didn’t need a kick up the pants. I’m just asking you to explain how this particular kick up the pants helped.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Kemi is not torching all. She is keeping the good and junking the bad. Keep up!

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Ha ha.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Ha ha.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

“binning 4,000 pieces of EU based legislation en masse with barely a shred of parliamentary scrutiny”
I think the problem is that there wasn’t much parliamentary scrutiny of EU legislation to begin with when they were imposed

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Even if true (which it isn’t unless you imagined that the UK was unrepresented in the EU) junking it all without scrutiny isn’t actually an improvement though, is it?

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Why not? It’s like chucking out the rubbish in your garage, scrap it and see who whinges. Scrapping the bans of misshapen veg worked brilliantly – so much so that after denying there was ever rules of how bendy bananas could be , the scrapping of the legislation was heralded as a triumph of sense.
Then there were all those butter, beef etc mountains, and the wine and oil lakes. I doubt there is a single piece of legislation in those laws that did anything other than make what already existed in terms of ways of working or ways of trading anything but harder.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Simple

“It’s like chucking out the rubbish in your garage, scrap it and see who whinges”

No, it really isn’t. Because the rubbish in your garage is in your garage – it isn’t being used.

The Government’s proposal was to get rid of all the legislation that originated in the EU. That was the criterion, not whether it was in use or, indeed useful, simply where it originated.

Which is more akin to getting rid of all the plumbing in your house that was installed by that jerk plumber who you think ripped you off.

Can you see the problem? He might have been a jerk, he might well have overcharged you and he might well have put some stuff in that wasn’t necessary. But some of what he put in might be useful. Some of it might be keeping the water flowing to your taps and taking the sewage away.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Simple

“It’s like chucking out the rubbish in your garage, scrap it and see who whinges”

No, it really isn’t. Because the rubbish in your garage is in your garage – it isn’t being used.

The Government’s proposal was to get rid of all the legislation that originated in the EU. That was the criterion, not whether it was in use or, indeed useful, simply where it originated.

Which is more akin to getting rid of all the plumbing in your house that was installed by that jerk plumber who you think ripped you off.

Can you see the problem? He might have been a jerk, he might well have overcharged you and he might well have put some stuff in that wasn’t necessary. But some of what he put in might be useful. Some of it might be keeping the water flowing to your taps and taking the sewage away.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Why not? It’s like chucking out the rubbish in your garage, scrap it and see who whinges. Scrapping the bans of misshapen veg worked brilliantly – so much so that after denying there was ever rules of how bendy bananas could be , the scrapping of the legislation was heralded as a triumph of sense.
Then there were all those butter, beef etc mountains, and the wine and oil lakes. I doubt there is a single piece of legislation in those laws that did anything other than make what already existed in terms of ways of working or ways of trading anything but harder.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Even if true (which it isn’t unless you imagined that the UK was unrepresented in the EU) junking it all without scrutiny isn’t actually an improvement though, is it?

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

They were implemented with barely any parliamentary scrutiny, and given the standard of EU legislation and the crazy things it covered – curvature of bananas one of the classics (usually denied by Europhiles, BUT a fact) , i doubt it would be even missed.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Kemi is not torching all. She is keeping the good and junking the bad. Keep up!

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

“binning 4,000 pieces of EU based legislation en masse with barely a shred of parliamentary scrutiny”
I think the problem is that there wasn’t much parliamentary scrutiny of EU legislation to begin with when they were imposed

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

They were implemented with barely any parliamentary scrutiny, and given the standard of EU legislation and the crazy things it covered – curvature of bananas one of the classics (usually denied by Europhiles, BUT a fact) , i doubt it would be even missed.

Favid Gorman
Favid Gorman
1 year ago
Reply to  Joel Dungate

This is a very good article but it doesn’t follow through on its central premise. Brexit is an impossibility to implement. It’s like Marxism, it’s a theory not a practice. Saying these are not the politicians is not an excuse, it’s a reason it will never be implemented because there will never be the politicians

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Joel Dungate

Shall dumping the FPP voting system be the next? A system which allows a party unpopular with 60% of voters to win an election with just 40% of the vote (or even less!) to govern isn’t really very democratic is it? ..especially if the 60% (say 25%+35%) are a lot closer to each other..
In Ireland we have a TV system which allows the 60% (FF, FG to keep the 40%, ie SF) out of government.. a more democratic system surely since Sinn Féin are deeply unpopular with the centre Left (FF) and centre right (FG) voters.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Joel Dungate

Please do explain how Brexit has so far democratised our nation.
While you’re at it, perhaps you can explain how, for example, binning 4,000 pieces of EU based legislation en masse with barely a shred of parliamentary scrutiny serves that end.
I’m not arguing that the country’s governance didn’t need a kick up the pants. I’m just asking you to explain how this particular kick up the pants helped.

Joel Dungate
Joel Dungate
1 year ago

Excellent article. Brexit was not just a technical thing, it was the start of a process of properly re-democratising our nation. Unfortunately, our technocratically minded elites have failed (perhaps wilfully?) to recognise this.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

What an excellent article.
“As a result, I knew that the Eurosceptics, who had just won the referendum, did not understand the EU at all. The institution was not, as many Leave campaigners presented it, a foreign superstate that ruled over Britain; it was the way in which the British political, business and professional elites ruled over Britain. It was British ministers and civil servants who made law and policy in the EU, in collaboration with the politicians and bureaucrats of other member states.”

As it happens, I can say that I did in fact understand this to some extent myself, observing in another online argument back at the time that it is obvious, surely, that many MPs do not act as the electorate’s representatives within government; they act as the State’s representatives to the electorate. They are PR men and women, nothing more, whose job it is to package and refine the messaging around policy that has already been decided, well away from anything as toxic and inconvenient as the opinions of the people to whom policy would be subject.

I mention this not in any sense of “told you so” or anything like that, but merely to say that if it had occurred to me, then it is surely certain that it had occurred to millions of other voters too. Doubtless it might have been expressed differently, but the truth is that either way on 23rd June 2016 the referendum distilled into a binary choice an opportunity to express colossal dissatisfaction with the manner in which successive generations of politicians had happily taken the perks and privileges of office, but hid behind the skirts of Brussels any time they were faced with the consequences of unpopular policy.

Or to put it another way, just because the voters may not have understood WHY there was a democratic deficit, does not mean that the democratic deficit did not exist. It did exist, and anyone who says otherwise is either stupid or telling lies.

Anyway, I have just bought this man’s book and look forward to reading what else he has to say.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Paul Walsh
Paul Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Was thinking the same on the book front. Think it is the first sensible article I have read on why many of us voted for Brexit and how it is misrepresented by a lot of Remain and Leave politicians. Good government and accountability would be nice, nobody else to blame now.

Favid Gorman
Favid Gorman
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Walsh

But would you now say, it is a dream that is impossible to implement and was never possible to implement and consequently a complete waste of time – a vanity project, like Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

Your two comments look very much like clutching at straws. As the article notes, any major change in governance after forty years will, self evidently, create serious challenges with the potential for profound long term benefits, that is exactly what I knowingly voted for. The dream of a utopian European superstate is very much in the process of being dragged down by its papered over contradictions. Welcome to the bracing fresh air of reality.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stevie K
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

There are a large number of self-governing nations on this planet – so it’s hard to see how you can describe the aspiration to join them as ‘impossible to implement’. Perhaps Brexit is impossible for our useless governing class to implement but then, seemingly, so is everything else.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

democratically elected by the people. Mark Francois is not beamed from space.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

democratically elected by the people. Mark Francois is not beamed from space.

Paul Walsh
Paul Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

No. It has been implemented. Just needs to be improved upon.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

Your two comments look very much like clutching at straws. As the article notes, any major change in governance after forty years will, self evidently, create serious challenges with the potential for profound long term benefits, that is exactly what I knowingly voted for. The dream of a utopian European superstate is very much in the process of being dragged down by its papered over contradictions. Welcome to the bracing fresh air of reality.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stevie K
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

There are a large number of self-governing nations on this planet – so it’s hard to see how you can describe the aspiration to join them as ‘impossible to implement’. Perhaps Brexit is impossible for our useless governing class to implement but then, seemingly, so is everything else.

Paul Walsh
Paul Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Favid Gorman

No. It has been implemented. Just needs to be improved upon.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Walsh

I once met a British ski guide/instructor in Austria. His parents had voted Leave because of Freedom of Movement. When he (voted remain) pointed out that he moved to Austria because Freedom of Movement his mommy said “you should go, they shouldn’t come here”.

Paul Walsh
Paul Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

I quite liked freedom of movement myself, although I understand why some didn’t. I tend not to agree with a lot of remain and a lot of leave voters.

Christian Moon
Christian Moon
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

This makes a bunch of universalising assumptions which demonstrate what’s wrong with transcontinental rule. Isn’t it perfectly possible that circumstances in each country were different (even if just at levels of xenophobia)? The demographic pressure in each was unlikely to be the same, and the demographic characteristics of migrants were also different. We just do not need the same rules in every country.

Paul Walsh
Paul Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

I quite liked freedom of movement myself, although I understand why some didn’t. I tend not to agree with a lot of remain and a lot of leave voters.

Christian Moon
Christian Moon
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

This makes a bunch of universalising assumptions which demonstrate what’s wrong with transcontinental rule. Isn’t it perfectly possible that circumstances in each country were different (even if just at levels of xenophobia)? The demographic pressure in each was unlikely to be the same, and the demographic characteristics of migrants were also different. We just do not need the same rules in every country.

Favid Gorman
Favid Gorman
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Walsh

But would you now say, it is a dream that is impossible to implement and was never possible to implement and consequently a complete waste of time – a vanity project, like Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Walsh

I once met a British ski guide/instructor in Austria. His parents had voted Leave because of Freedom of Movement. When he (voted remain) pointed out that he moved to Austria because Freedom of Movement his mommy said “you should go, they shouldn’t come here”.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Of course there was a gigantic democratic deficit – both at the level of the nation state and at that of the EU. That is not and was not the question. The question was, will Brexit solve that problem?

And anyone who thought about that for a moment would have realised that Brexit would certainly have torpedoed the nodding globalists in the centre of the British political spectrum – who had been most in favour of remain – but that the beneficiaries would be the Eurosceptic right wing of the Conservative party.

And, I would humbly submit, a halfway sensible person would have realised that that gaggle of poorly housetrained dogs, wasn’t ready for its moment in the sun and wasn’t proposing a set of policies that were either deliverable or appetising.

Because, whilst a “bonfire of red tape” makes a super headline in the Mail, the shine wears off when you realise that red tape is what keeps our food standards miles above those of the US and that getting rid of those regulations to make a “favourable environment for business” leads directly to shit all over the beaches, Grenfell and zero hours contracts.

Brexit didn’t need to mean any of those things but a vote for Brexit in the specific circumstances of this country in 2016 was a vote to empower precisely the sorts of goons who wanted to use it as an opportunity do exactly these things and much worse besides. If you voted for it in the hope of getting anything other than precisely what we have got then you were… how to put this politely… hoodwinked.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

“And, I would humbly submit…”

Well no, not really. Not at all convincing. And what is this paranoid rubbish about regulation? Are we really to suppose that the Grenfell tragedy in 2017 was the result of reduced regulatory oversight from the Referendum only the year before? Same for zero hours contracts, implemented while we were still in the EU, and the present difficulties with sewage outflows, which are happening under the same regulatory system that we had while EU members?

Honestly what nonsense. As to the rest, you seem to imagine that you and your foresight were able to discern the likely effects of voting for Brexit, then the Tory party losing its majority, fighting over implementing it for four years and then having a pandemic and a war, and then concluding on today’s date that the process of recovery of self-government will go no further.

Ill give you this: you present your nonsense reasonably eloquently, but it is nevertheless complete nonsense.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I’ll take even a half compliment where I can get it BTL ;¬)
I’m not saying that the specific deregulation that lead to Grenfell was the result of Brexit. Nor zero hours contracts.
What I am saying is that all of those disasters arose form previous, ham-fisted deregulation.
And I am pointing out that the ERG very much considered a huge big bang of deregulation as part of their Brexit dividend. To that end, they wanted to get every single regulation that originated in the EU repealed.
And I am trying to suggest that such an exercise would have lead to more disasters like the ones I cited. I am fully aware that the Govt has now pulled back form it’s original course of mass repealling 4,000 laws and Statutory Instruments and that it has now agreed to check that they don’t do anything useful first. Well that’s a start, sure.
But forgive me if it doesn’t absolutely assuage my fear that babies may get thrown out with bathwater leading to further disasters of this ilk.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

And, as to having foreseen what transpired since Brexit. Yes, actually I did foresee a great deal of it. Not the war and not the pandemic – obviously – but the Conservative party tearing itself apart? Abso-f*****g-lutely.
How could I foresee this? For the reason I have pointed out. There was a slim majority for a thing called Brexit but absolutely no agreement among those who supported it about what it meant.
Great geniuses like Dan Hanan said that we should leave the EU but still have access to the Single Market and Customs Union whilst also deregulating in ways that would have given us market advantage over other european nations. since that would have totally undermined the whole idea of the common market, it didn’t seem likely that they would agree to it – whatever German auto makers might have thought.

Since that was off the table, it was clear that we were going to have to choose between soft Brexit. (accepting all the EU rules whilst giving up our say in how they were made) and hard Brexit (giving up tariff-free access to the world’s largest single market area in exchange for benefits not yet articulated).

Deciding between those two strategies did indeed split the conservatives right down the middle. A split that they sought to conceal by becoming increasingly vitupertaive towards anyone who even suggested that, you know, maybe they hadn’t thought all this through.

They were saved only because Brexit also represented a giant problem for Labour. The PLP and the membership were overwhelmingly for remain but Labour voters were split right down the middle. Also, as you may recall, the PLP was busily engaged in trying to lose an election so that they could be rid of their detested new leader.

So, no, I did not predict the result of the 2017 election either. But I did see that Brexit was going to royally screw up British politics for years and that it would be damn near impossible to get any of the other things that urgently needed doing, done in the meantime.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Ok, so basically you are claiming that you could foresee that Brexit would lead to disruption. The problem is that this modest assertion does not then permit your non-sequitur in which you’re effectively arguing that the principle of Brexit – or the manner of its interpretation by the voters – is therefore undermined by events.

I voted for Brexit after a difficult internal debate in 2016, not being sure that it was quite the right thing to do. I could, like you, foresee that it would cause considerable disruption, including a deliberate and vindictive campaign by Brussels to sabotage it. And indeed we have seen that happen – it was hardly difficult to predict. What has happened since though, contrary to your expectations, is that the conduct of the UK’s political class has made me entirely certain that Brexit was the correct course of action. The Europhile political class in the UK has disgraced itself forever, and millions of voters regard them with justified contempt and disgust.

It is of course pretty standard for EU fans to adopt the sort of petty and childish debating techniques in which, having railed against Brexit as the worst thing to happen to the country ever, they then hold it to an impossibly high standard against which any perceived failure or even cost of process is instantly held aloft as proof that they were right. Despite the fact, of course that if a simalar review of EU membership since 1975 was conducted, they’d be in an intellectual hole so deep they’d never climb out of it.

In short, your ability to point to Brexit disruption isn’t the silver bullet you think it is. Millions of Brexit voters knew it was a risk, both politically in terms of creating a potential enemy in Brussels, and economically in terms of upending over 40 years of cosy continental business relationships which would beed to be rapidly replaced by global relationships of uncertain nature. It was a risk that we understood at the time, it was one that was deemed worth taking in 2016, and seven years later I, for one, am more certain than ever that it was the right decision.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

It’s not a non-sequitur.
And I’m not a dyed in the wool remainer. I’ve voted for eurosceptic parties in the past.
What I’m saying is that there are many different possible forms of Brexit. There may have been, and there may yet be, desirable forms of Brexit BUT the referendum was not going to be a good way to achieve them.
This is because, and let’s go all the way back to the article itself here, the Brexit we were going to get was always going to be the Brexit chosen by the people in Westminster who had been calling for it.
Those people were: John Redwood, Daniel Hanan, Nigel Farrage and their ilk. These people preached a form of Brexit primarily motivated by de-regulation and the desire to gain competitive advantage over Europe by undercutting them. This strategy was not palatable domestically (most people don’t want our labour rights further eroded) nor with Europe, which did not want to offer free trade terms to a country determined to work to lower regulatory standards.
That is, forgive me, a s**t version of Brexit which was doomed to fail.
If you voted for a different kind of Brexit – one where John Redwood and Ian Duncan-Smith and Steve Barclay sat down the day after the referendum and invited the country to participate in a big, open conversation about what kind of country we wanted to be and how it was in the self-interest of Europe to work with us in determining this exciting new course, where the old lefty greybeards worked with the interests of the City to figure out an entirely new settlement. Well… it isn’t what you got, is it?

I’m genuinely sorry you didn’t get it. I’d have liked a new political settlement too. I’d have liked a constitutional convention and a serious conversation about our reliance on immigration and our refusal to build the infrastructure to make that reliance anything other than exploitative. That, and a thousand other things.
But this bunch of Thatcherite headbangers was never, ever, in a million years, going to deliver it.
That was obvious to me. If it wasn’t obvious to you then, you were sold a pup. That must be galling. But it isn’t the fault of the remainer blob, or the EU or anyone else. It is the sole and exclusive fault of the leaders of the Leave campaign who refused to set out nature of the prize they sought to win during the campaign (and thereby deprived themselves and you of a mandate for any specific form of Brexit) and whose viciousness and lawlessness in its aftermath precluded the necessary period of introspection.
They betrayed you. And they were always going to. Screw them.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

It’s not a non-sequitur.
And I’m not a dyed in the wool remainer. I’ve voted for eurosceptic parties in the past.
What I’m saying is that there are many different possible forms of Brexit. There may have been, and there may yet be, desirable forms of Brexit BUT the referendum was not going to be a good way to achieve them.
This is because, and let’s go all the way back to the article itself here, the Brexit we were going to get was always going to be the Brexit chosen by the people in Westminster who had been calling for it.
Those people were: John Redwood, Daniel Hanan, Nigel Farrage and their ilk. These people preached a form of Brexit primarily motivated by de-regulation and the desire to gain competitive advantage over Europe by undercutting them. This strategy was not palatable domestically (most people don’t want our labour rights further eroded) nor with Europe, which did not want to offer free trade terms to a country determined to work to lower regulatory standards.
That is, forgive me, a s**t version of Brexit which was doomed to fail.
If you voted for a different kind of Brexit – one where John Redwood and Ian Duncan-Smith and Steve Barclay sat down the day after the referendum and invited the country to participate in a big, open conversation about what kind of country we wanted to be and how it was in the self-interest of Europe to work with us in determining this exciting new course, where the old lefty greybeards worked with the interests of the City to figure out an entirely new settlement. Well… it isn’t what you got, is it?

I’m genuinely sorry you didn’t get it. I’d have liked a new political settlement too. I’d have liked a constitutional convention and a serious conversation about our reliance on immigration and our refusal to build the infrastructure to make that reliance anything other than exploitative. That, and a thousand other things.
But this bunch of Thatcherite headbangers was never, ever, in a million years, going to deliver it.
That was obvious to me. If it wasn’t obvious to you then, you were sold a pup. That must be galling. But it isn’t the fault of the remainer blob, or the EU or anyone else. It is the sole and exclusive fault of the leaders of the Leave campaign who refused to set out nature of the prize they sought to win during the campaign (and thereby deprived themselves and you of a mandate for any specific form of Brexit) and whose viciousness and lawlessness in its aftermath precluded the necessary period of introspection.
They betrayed you. And they were always going to. Screw them.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Ok, so basically you are claiming that you could foresee that Brexit would lead to disruption. The problem is that this modest assertion does not then permit your non-sequitur in which you’re effectively arguing that the principle of Brexit – or the manner of its interpretation by the voters – is therefore undermined by events.

I voted for Brexit after a difficult internal debate in 2016, not being sure that it was quite the right thing to do. I could, like you, foresee that it would cause considerable disruption, including a deliberate and vindictive campaign by Brussels to sabotage it. And indeed we have seen that happen – it was hardly difficult to predict. What has happened since though, contrary to your expectations, is that the conduct of the UK’s political class has made me entirely certain that Brexit was the correct course of action. The Europhile political class in the UK has disgraced itself forever, and millions of voters regard them with justified contempt and disgust.

It is of course pretty standard for EU fans to adopt the sort of petty and childish debating techniques in which, having railed against Brexit as the worst thing to happen to the country ever, they then hold it to an impossibly high standard against which any perceived failure or even cost of process is instantly held aloft as proof that they were right. Despite the fact, of course that if a simalar review of EU membership since 1975 was conducted, they’d be in an intellectual hole so deep they’d never climb out of it.

In short, your ability to point to Brexit disruption isn’t the silver bullet you think it is. Millions of Brexit voters knew it was a risk, both politically in terms of creating a potential enemy in Brussels, and economically in terms of upending over 40 years of cosy continental business relationships which would beed to be rapidly replaced by global relationships of uncertain nature. It was a risk that we understood at the time, it was one that was deemed worth taking in 2016, and seven years later I, for one, am more certain than ever that it was the right decision.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I’ll take even a half compliment where I can get it BTL ;¬)
I’m not saying that the specific deregulation that lead to Grenfell was the result of Brexit. Nor zero hours contracts.
What I am saying is that all of those disasters arose form previous, ham-fisted deregulation.
And I am pointing out that the ERG very much considered a huge big bang of deregulation as part of their Brexit dividend. To that end, they wanted to get every single regulation that originated in the EU repealed.
And I am trying to suggest that such an exercise would have lead to more disasters like the ones I cited. I am fully aware that the Govt has now pulled back form it’s original course of mass repealling 4,000 laws and Statutory Instruments and that it has now agreed to check that they don’t do anything useful first. Well that’s a start, sure.
But forgive me if it doesn’t absolutely assuage my fear that babies may get thrown out with bathwater leading to further disasters of this ilk.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

And, as to having foreseen what transpired since Brexit. Yes, actually I did foresee a great deal of it. Not the war and not the pandemic – obviously – but the Conservative party tearing itself apart? Abso-f*****g-lutely.
How could I foresee this? For the reason I have pointed out. There was a slim majority for a thing called Brexit but absolutely no agreement among those who supported it about what it meant.
Great geniuses like Dan Hanan said that we should leave the EU but still have access to the Single Market and Customs Union whilst also deregulating in ways that would have given us market advantage over other european nations. since that would have totally undermined the whole idea of the common market, it didn’t seem likely that they would agree to it – whatever German auto makers might have thought.

Since that was off the table, it was clear that we were going to have to choose between soft Brexit. (accepting all the EU rules whilst giving up our say in how they were made) and hard Brexit (giving up tariff-free access to the world’s largest single market area in exchange for benefits not yet articulated).

Deciding between those two strategies did indeed split the conservatives right down the middle. A split that they sought to conceal by becoming increasingly vitupertaive towards anyone who even suggested that, you know, maybe they hadn’t thought all this through.

They were saved only because Brexit also represented a giant problem for Labour. The PLP and the membership were overwhelmingly for remain but Labour voters were split right down the middle. Also, as you may recall, the PLP was busily engaged in trying to lose an election so that they could be rid of their detested new leader.

So, no, I did not predict the result of the 2017 election either. But I did see that Brexit was going to royally screw up British politics for years and that it would be damn near impossible to get any of the other things that urgently needed doing, done in the meantime.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

“And, I would humbly submit…”

Well no, not really. Not at all convincing. And what is this paranoid rubbish about regulation? Are we really to suppose that the Grenfell tragedy in 2017 was the result of reduced regulatory oversight from the Referendum only the year before? Same for zero hours contracts, implemented while we were still in the EU, and the present difficulties with sewage outflows, which are happening under the same regulatory system that we had while EU members?

Honestly what nonsense. As to the rest, you seem to imagine that you and your foresight were able to discern the likely effects of voting for Brexit, then the Tory party losing its majority, fighting over implementing it for four years and then having a pandemic and a war, and then concluding on today’s date that the process of recovery of self-government will go no further.

Ill give you this: you present your nonsense reasonably eloquently, but it is nevertheless complete nonsense.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Yes, that is why Blackpool voted Leave!

Paul Walsh
Paul Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Was thinking the same on the book front. Think it is the first sensible article I have read on why many of us voted for Brexit and how it is misrepresented by a lot of Remain and Leave politicians. Good government and accountability would be nice, nobody else to blame now.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Of course there was a gigantic democratic deficit – both at the level of the nation state and at that of the EU. That is not and was not the question. The question was, will Brexit solve that problem?

And anyone who thought about that for a moment would have realised that Brexit would certainly have torpedoed the nodding globalists in the centre of the British political spectrum – who had been most in favour of remain – but that the beneficiaries would be the Eurosceptic right wing of the Conservative party.

And, I would humbly submit, a halfway sensible person would have realised that that gaggle of poorly housetrained dogs, wasn’t ready for its moment in the sun and wasn’t proposing a set of policies that were either deliverable or appetising.

Because, whilst a “bonfire of red tape” makes a super headline in the Mail, the shine wears off when you realise that red tape is what keeps our food standards miles above those of the US and that getting rid of those regulations to make a “favourable environment for business” leads directly to shit all over the beaches, Grenfell and zero hours contracts.

Brexit didn’t need to mean any of those things but a vote for Brexit in the specific circumstances of this country in 2016 was a vote to empower precisely the sorts of goons who wanted to use it as an opportunity do exactly these things and much worse besides. If you voted for it in the hope of getting anything other than precisely what we have got then you were… how to put this politely… hoodwinked.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Yes, that is why Blackpool voted Leave!

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

What an excellent article.
“As a result, I knew that the Eurosceptics, who had just won the referendum, did not understand the EU at all. The institution was not, as many Leave campaigners presented it, a foreign superstate that ruled over Britain; it was the way in which the British political, business and professional elites ruled over Britain. It was British ministers and civil servants who made law and policy in the EU, in collaboration with the politicians and bureaucrats of other member states.”

As it happens, I can say that I did in fact understand this to some extent myself, observing in another online argument back at the time that it is obvious, surely, that many MPs do not act as the electorate’s representatives within government; they act as the State’s representatives to the electorate. They are PR men and women, nothing more, whose job it is to package and refine the messaging around policy that has already been decided, well away from anything as toxic and inconvenient as the opinions of the people to whom policy would be subject.

I mention this not in any sense of “told you so” or anything like that, but merely to say that if it had occurred to me, then it is surely certain that it had occurred to millions of other voters too. Doubtless it might have been expressed differently, but the truth is that either way on 23rd June 2016 the referendum distilled into a binary choice an opportunity to express colossal dissatisfaction with the manner in which successive generations of politicians had happily taken the perks and privileges of office, but hid behind the skirts of Brussels any time they were faced with the consequences of unpopular policy.

Or to put it another way, just because the voters may not have understood WHY there was a democratic deficit, does not mean that the democratic deficit did not exist. It did exist, and anyone who says otherwise is either stupid or telling lies.

Anyway, I have just bought this man’s book and look forward to reading what else he has to say.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

This article articulates many truths and a new political deal with the electorate is needed. But I’ve argued that the EU is mostly a New Hanseatic League… a protectionist trade union defending the interests of Big Business. So breaking free from the decaying structures of globalism and Atlanticism is the other half of Brexit yet to be undertaken.
We ‘just’ need to break up the monolithic clerisy of the Civil Service, blob, and political parties that are still hankering for the ‘old ways’.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Pretty vague stuff .So we would leave the World Trade Organisation and the United Nations would we?

R Wright
R Wright
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

God willing.

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Take back control and treat each case on its merits… and don’t sign up to any treaty that erodes our sovereignty.

John Clinch
John Clinch
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

That’s us out of Nato then. Insane

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  John Clinch

NATO membership doesn’t erode our sovereignty.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

What does it do for us?

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

What does it do for us?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Clinch

Maybe not? ..look at North Korea.. it’s doing okay right? ..oh no, even it’s in hock to China! Two more options occur: restore the British empire and dominate the world; or become the US’s 51st state? Not great options though are they? I jest, or do I?

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  John Clinch

NATO membership doesn’t erode our sovereignty.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Clinch

Maybe not? ..look at North Korea.. it’s doing okay right? ..oh no, even it’s in hock to China! Two more options occur: restore the British empire and dominate the world; or become the US’s 51st state? Not great options though are they? I jest, or do I?

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

ALL treaties erode sovereignty to some extent just like all agreements require some compromise.. the days of a British Empire lording over its colonies with 95% for it and 5% for the other nation (under the threat of brutal violence and sanctions) are over.
Only the American Empire can do that these days and even it’s hegemonic tyranny is now in decline. The future is BRICS++

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Sure, how much time did the UK parliament spent going over the trade deals that UK GOV signed (Australia, Pacific Deal).
Do you really believe that the MPs truly understand the deals?
Do the voters in Leeds ? How many of them read the documents?

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

I read the GFA and many WTO rules whenever remainers claimed Brexit broke any of them. The only thing I could find where something was broken was on page 2 where remain/EU threats of violence IF a border was introduced were used to attack Brexit. Curiously the only people wanting a border were the EU. The UK didn’t need any border AND one of the more amusing stories about it had a photograph of a border with the existing sign directing people to the Customs post. Even more impressive of the EU/Remain breaking of the GFA on P2 was the fact P1 was the table of contents.

Last edited 1 year ago by Simon Simple
Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

I read the GFA and many WTO rules whenever remainers claimed Brexit broke any of them. The only thing I could find where something was broken was on page 2 where remain/EU threats of violence IF a border was introduced were used to attack Brexit. Curiously the only people wanting a border were the EU. The UK didn’t need any border AND one of the more amusing stories about it had a photograph of a border with the existing sign directing people to the Customs post. Even more impressive of the EU/Remain breaking of the GFA on P2 was the fact P1 was the table of contents.

Last edited 1 year ago by Simon Simple
John Clinch
John Clinch
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

That’s us out of Nato then. Insane

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

ALL treaties erode sovereignty to some extent just like all agreements require some compromise.. the days of a British Empire lording over its colonies with 95% for it and 5% for the other nation (under the threat of brutal violence and sanctions) are over.
Only the American Empire can do that these days and even it’s hegemonic tyranny is now in decline. The future is BRICS++

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Sure, how much time did the UK parliament spent going over the trade deals that UK GOV signed (Australia, Pacific Deal).
Do you really believe that the MPs truly understand the deals?
Do the voters in Leeds ? How many of them read the documents?

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Would that the USA also leaves these organizations- the UN truly has lost the plot. It’s nothing more than a club for Third World Nations to shakedown more affluent nations for money. Ditto the WTO. They have lost their purpose.

Last edited 1 year ago by Cathy Carron
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

..and the ECHR as well, presumably?

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

We don’t need the EHCR, Europe needed that, they not having the benefit of the English legal system, common law etc. Which, curiously, we were abandoning as EU members. Probably the only reason we needed the EHCR. Leave it., What input we provided was to save Europe from its legal systems failures in those areas.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

We don’t need the EHCR, Europe needed that, they not having the benefit of the English legal system, common law etc. Which, curiously, we were abandoning as EU members. Probably the only reason we needed the EHCR. Leave it., What input we provided was to save Europe from its legal systems failures in those areas.

Giselle Brannan
Giselle Brannan
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

.. and the utterly corrupt WHO!

R Wright
R Wright
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

God willing.

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Take back control and treat each case on its merits… and don’t sign up to any treaty that erodes our sovereignty.

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Would that the USA also leaves these organizations- the UN truly has lost the plot. It’s nothing more than a club for Third World Nations to shakedown more affluent nations for money. Ditto the WTO. They have lost their purpose.

Last edited 1 year ago by Cathy Carron
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

..and the ECHR as well, presumably?

Giselle Brannan
Giselle Brannan
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

.. and the utterly corrupt WHO!

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

I agree on need for the domestic revolution and overthrow of the pro EU Clerisy. See above. I think it might only be an external shock – the collapse of the EU itself – which might set the liberation train running. After all, Brexiteers are more alert to the structural dysfunction in the EUs currency/fiscal/monetary/North v South set up than snyone else. The U is so vulnerable to Greece type shocks. Economic chaos – sped by its Net Zero madness and the recession caused by rising interest rates and the Russian energy crisis – may well bring an end to the Federal Europe dream our dreadful Remainiacs cling too. Then we all can start again with a fresh and truly democratic alliance of nation states.

John Ramsden
John Ramsden
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

An EU collapse is the last thing a Brexiter should want, because a new one would immediately be formed and the UK government would then have a desperate urge to join it at its inception, and claim that the brand new “UE” would be completely different and far better than the bad old EU!

I voted Brexit mainly due to a feeling that the UK’s national leadership skills were atrophying. Use it or lose it, I argued, and God knows they weren’t that good previously. So it is gratifying that the author has pinpointed this aspect.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Ramsden
Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  John Ramsden

I agree about how 40 years of EU rule utterly blitzed & atrophied the skills – notably initiative – from HMG. Remember Gove describing how they all sat at desks on Mondays waiting for the Euro Box of Laws to arrive from Brussels? But I cannot ever imagine any further attempt to create a United States of Europe after a crash. It is the politics and dysfunction – the woefully uncompleted currency regime – which will explode that dream. What may follow that armaggedon would surely be a return to a loose non protectionist non regulatory obsessed sensible free trade arrangement which would benefit us all. Enterprise has been suffocated by the EUs precautionary principle & bureaucratism. We all will need enterprise & wealth creation if we ever are to recover from this nightmare.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Those EU laws were largely…
British laws adopted by the EU or
EU drafted laws with major GB input!
I think you need to read the article again.. and if Michael Gove is your idea of a ‘saviour’ you’re in deeper trouble than ever!

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I loath Gove and the Fake Tories. Everyone here of a Remoany worldview is very quick to assume we all are Identikit Racist Uneducated Isolationist Pro Every Tory Nutters! I simply repeated his observation in response to a great point about how the spark of initiative and innovation was rubbed out in our ‘government’. We had 40 years being passive recipients of laws & Regulations cooled up by our betters in Brussels which largely went onto the statue book without debate. Er democracy?? Yes Brit civil servants or commissioners like the reptilian Mandelson or Fatty Pang Patten were involved over there. But come on – when we wanted urgent temporary control of our own borders in the 2015 migration and pre referendum ‘negotiations’ phase (pretty fundamental), Angela & EU just laughed at Cameron and told us to p*** off. Are you seriously ok with that?

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

He’s in Cork, you might like to ask a Dubliner, as you may get a different answer.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

He’s in Cork, you might like to ask a Dubliner, as you may get a different answer.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

That may account for the current insane Net Zero rules the EU has pushed – maybe Brexit is going to hurt the EU more than us. Do you own any cattle by any chance?

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I loath Gove and the Fake Tories. Everyone here of a Remoany worldview is very quick to assume we all are Identikit Racist Uneducated Isolationist Pro Every Tory Nutters! I simply repeated his observation in response to a great point about how the spark of initiative and innovation was rubbed out in our ‘government’. We had 40 years being passive recipients of laws & Regulations cooled up by our betters in Brussels which largely went onto the statue book without debate. Er democracy?? Yes Brit civil servants or commissioners like the reptilian Mandelson or Fatty Pang Patten were involved over there. But come on – when we wanted urgent temporary control of our own borders in the 2015 migration and pre referendum ‘negotiations’ phase (pretty fundamental), Angela & EU just laughed at Cameron and told us to p*** off. Are you seriously ok with that?

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

That may account for the current insane Net Zero rules the EU has pushed – maybe Brexit is going to hurt the EU more than us. Do you own any cattle by any chance?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Those EU laws were largely…
British laws adopted by the EU or
EU drafted laws with major GB input!
I think you need to read the article again.. and if Michael Gove is your idea of a ‘saviour’ you’re in deeper trouble than ever!

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  John Ramsden

Yes, because the governance of UK post WW2 was such a success (£ devaluations, suez, IMF bailout, strikes)….EU membership did that!

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  John Ramsden

No it wouldn’t, because when it does collapse, great will be the fall thereof and there won’t be anyone willing, or perhaps even able, to fund a recovery. The next battle is over Net Zero, and it is going to occur across the West, and Govts will lose it because Net Zero is impossible and insane. The bad news may be how violent this revolt gets IF Governments don’t back down. Too many EU States lack the democracy needed to sweep away the Green cultists.
Doomberg so often reports on the reality. Even if you don’t want to pay for the full insight with explanations, it’s tasters are often well worth reading.
https://doomberg.substack.com/p/malthusian-malarkey
The 3rd world isn’t having Net Zero (and curiously that is where Brexit Britain is seeking new trade partners) – Europe however,
https://doomberg.substack.com/p/green-is-the-new-red

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  John Ramsden

I agree about how 40 years of EU rule utterly blitzed & atrophied the skills – notably initiative – from HMG. Remember Gove describing how they all sat at desks on Mondays waiting for the Euro Box of Laws to arrive from Brussels? But I cannot ever imagine any further attempt to create a United States of Europe after a crash. It is the politics and dysfunction – the woefully uncompleted currency regime – which will explode that dream. What may follow that armaggedon would surely be a return to a loose non protectionist non regulatory obsessed sensible free trade arrangement which would benefit us all. Enterprise has been suffocated by the EUs precautionary principle & bureaucratism. We all will need enterprise & wealth creation if we ever are to recover from this nightmare.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  John Ramsden

Yes, because the governance of UK post WW2 was such a success (£ devaluations, suez, IMF bailout, strikes)….EU membership did that!

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  John Ramsden

No it wouldn’t, because when it does collapse, great will be the fall thereof and there won’t be anyone willing, or perhaps even able, to fund a recovery. The next battle is over Net Zero, and it is going to occur across the West, and Govts will lose it because Net Zero is impossible and insane. The bad news may be how violent this revolt gets IF Governments don’t back down. Too many EU States lack the democracy needed to sweep away the Green cultists.
Doomberg so often reports on the reality. Even if you don’t want to pay for the full insight with explanations, it’s tasters are often well worth reading.
https://doomberg.substack.com/p/malthusian-malarkey
The 3rd world isn’t having Net Zero (and curiously that is where Brexit Britain is seeking new trade partners) – Europe however,
https://doomberg.substack.com/p/green-is-the-new-red

John Ramsden
John Ramsden
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

An EU collapse is the last thing a Brexiter should want, because a new one would immediately be formed and the UK government would then have a desperate urge to join it at its inception, and claim that the brand new “UE” would be completely different and far better than the bad old EU!

I voted Brexit mainly due to a feeling that the UK’s national leadership skills were atrophying. Use it or lose it, I argued, and God knows they weren’t that good previously. So it is gratifying that the author has pinpointed this aspect.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Ramsden
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

A laudable but sadly impossible task.. can you offer any realistic, tangible suggestions. What you suggest is pie in the sky I fear.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The educational blob may be sweating a little as Identarian rants by teachers against pupils, recorded by said pupils and released on social media aren’t exactly revealing the current profession in the same light as good old Chips 😉
The fact that at least one has a teacher suggesting Biology isn’t relevant might make one wonder IF sending pupils out to work at 14 is a better way of educating them.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The educational blob may be sweating a little as Identarian rants by teachers against pupils, recorded by said pupils and released on social media aren’t exactly revealing the current profession in the same light as good old Chips 😉
The fact that at least one has a teacher suggesting Biology isn’t relevant might make one wonder IF sending pupils out to work at 14 is a better way of educating them.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Pretty vague stuff .So we would leave the World Trade Organisation and the United Nations would we?

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

I agree on need for the domestic revolution and overthrow of the pro EU Clerisy. See above. I think it might only be an external shock – the collapse of the EU itself – which might set the liberation train running. After all, Brexiteers are more alert to the structural dysfunction in the EUs currency/fiscal/monetary/North v South set up than snyone else. The U is so vulnerable to Greece type shocks. Economic chaos – sped by its Net Zero madness and the recession caused by rising interest rates and the Russian energy crisis – may well bring an end to the Federal Europe dream our dreadful Remainiacs cling too. Then we all can start again with a fresh and truly democratic alliance of nation states.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

A laudable but sadly impossible task.. can you offer any realistic, tangible suggestions. What you suggest is pie in the sky I fear.

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

This article articulates many truths and a new political deal with the electorate is needed. But I’ve argued that the EU is mostly a New Hanseatic League… a protectionist trade union defending the interests of Big Business. So breaking free from the decaying structures of globalism and Atlanticism is the other half of Brexit yet to be undertaken.
We ‘just’ need to break up the monolithic clerisy of the Civil Service, blob, and political parties that are still hankering for the ‘old ways’.

George Sheerin
George Sheerin
1 year ago

At last, some flesh on the bones, for true Brexiteers, and some optimism, a great article.I look forward to reading his co authored book, and recampaining for electoral reform.

Richard 0
Richard 0
1 year ago
Reply to  George Sheerin

Agreed. Excellent article. Refreshing to get this kind of insight: he’s spot on.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard 0

Superb article with so many insights. I can only add two further thoughts. One is architectural – a point I regularly bang away at. Many/most of us had failed to understand that the British State – not just the political classes inhabiting it – had been reshaped in the Blair Revolution to smooth our transition into a compliant EU Province. He set about neutering the power of the nation state and the Executive. The Brexit Project was not just facing the wrath of an EU pension-deprived vengeful political class – but an entire structure of governance designed to frustrate the emergence of powerful national executives. There was a scorched earth..we just failed to see it. So it is not just the deranged Remainiacs (wailing at the threat to their million pound property enrichment) whom we face…we still inhabit a Remainiac EU clone system of technocracy, devoution, quangos, BoE, Supreme Courts and devolution. A herculean task.. but we have – lets pray – decades in principle to re-build. The bigger problem is that Brexit is ultimately a People & Peasant and Provincial Rebellion. It has no leaders or party inside the System. The Tory Party was more Remainer than Brexit anyway (May Cameron Truss Hunt) and our nasty ghastly wfh civil servants have conspired successfully (shamefully) to defenestrate ALL the top 10 Brex ministers for cake and being bullies. Who can and will taje on the immense task of dismantling the vast EU New Order State that overshadows and cripples our society? Cummings knew it would be a dirty War. But he too has gone and the paralysed Fake Tories – first defeated by the Blob – now face electoral defeat as well. Who will use our new freedom to liberate us and reform this corrupt failing state? Who? How? When?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Absurd!
People wanted more quangos because they did not trust politicians (short horizons – elections) to do the difficult things.
BofE and its independence is the perfect example.
People (the ones that cared about the issue) looked around and noticed that independent central banks (Bundesbank being the best example) was able to make tough decisions unlike BofE.
You might agree/disagree with that position but it was hardly a conspiracy.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Who ever said it was a conspiracy? It was bloodless and open revolution which – yes – was described as a positive ‘modernising’ change to get experts replacing the here today gone tomorrow venal politicos. It sounded just fine! The fact that this constitutional process was encouraged at the very same time – post Lisbon Treaty and New EU – across all EU states (as a way of cementing the power of the Union and dissolving the powers of nation states) was less well understood as we were all bouncing along happily in the new adventure. It is only post a Brexit and an attempt to restore governance by a nation state that this New Order becomes the nightmare that it is, hamstringing executive action. Because it is now VERY clear that these supposed technocrats like Mr 5% Bailey, the cuffed devolution leaders, the hapless water and energy regulators and NHS executives are all absolutely & quite dangerously rubbish – worse than the shite politicos…and very far from non-political with their net zero obsession and cat identities. Disasters are not necessarily caused by conspiracy. They happen in plain sight.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Who ever said it was a conspiracy? It was bloodless and open revolution which – yes – was described as a positive ‘modernising’ change to get experts replacing the here today gone tomorrow venal politicos. It sounded just fine! The fact that this constitutional process was encouraged at the very same time – post Lisbon Treaty and New EU – across all EU states (as a way of cementing the power of the Union and dissolving the powers of nation states) was less well understood as we were all bouncing along happily in the new adventure. It is only post a Brexit and an attempt to restore governance by a nation state that this New Order becomes the nightmare that it is, hamstringing executive action. Because it is now VERY clear that these supposed technocrats like Mr 5% Bailey, the cuffed devolution leaders, the hapless water and energy regulators and NHS executives are all absolutely & quite dangerously rubbish – worse than the shite politicos…and very far from non-political with their net zero obsession and cat identities. Disasters are not necessarily caused by conspiracy. They happen in plain sight.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

mmmm… the first ¾ of your contribution seems to be at odds with your final (and far more accurate) ¼.. Who indeed? Nigel Farrage maybe?

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Interestingly, I think I stumbled upon an answer to my own Q later..
In another post!!! I do not wish this impending crash on anyone. But I do think that the tsunamis unleashed across the West by the ending of the Zero Interest Regime, the QE Timebombs, the multiple Net Zero, Welfarist & Lockdown catastrophes will shatter the EU as well as us. The union is structurally dysfunctional and surely will be broken up by the crisis. Pray God normal closer relations and trade between us and Europe might resume in a new era properly committed to free trade, collaboration when the brutalist outmoded EU has itself been dismantled. In other words, an external shock first to unblock a paralysed UK.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Interestingly, I think I stumbled upon an answer to my own Q later..
In another post!!! I do not wish this impending crash on anyone. But I do think that the tsunamis unleashed across the West by the ending of the Zero Interest Regime, the QE Timebombs, the multiple Net Zero, Welfarist & Lockdown catastrophes will shatter the EU as well as us. The union is structurally dysfunctional and surely will be broken up by the crisis. Pray God normal closer relations and trade between us and Europe might resume in a new era properly committed to free trade, collaboration when the brutalist outmoded EU has itself been dismantled. In other words, an external shock first to unblock a paralysed UK.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Would you consider whether in an ever more integrated world the idea of a sovereign Nation State is obsolete? Are you stuck in the 19th century when Britannia ruled the waves?

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago

Huh? Why does criticism of a particular and very new effort at empire/federation – the EU – make me (I presume in your book) a C19th Imperialist hankering after gunboats??? Only amidst the red mists of Remainia & Brex Derangement does every raycist Brexiteer seek isolation from meany scary foreigners!! What utter tosh! I love the fact we are a major player still on the international stage! G7S. Support for Ukraine. Soft power. All the ties YOU lot belittle and demean. I love all the multilateral treaties like maritime which bind the world together. I love free trade, something the brutal protectionist Cartel in Europe disdains, harming the developing world. I also like us having a seat on the UN Security Council, something frothing Remainers were happy for the EU to take from us. Funny that….America is not a bad federal independent state. But the EU is an oddity which can never ever match the USA. It is an outmoded systemically flawed (premature Euro) anti democratic new empire that sadly is not working. It is flailing around while the rest of the world chugs along with the norm; independent sovereign states with a direct democratic between the people and rulers.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago

Huh? Why does criticism of a particular and very new effort at empire/federation – the EU – make me (I presume in your book) a C19th Imperialist hankering after gunboats??? Only amidst the red mists of Remainia & Brex Derangement does every raycist Brexiteer seek isolation from meany scary foreigners!! What utter tosh! I love the fact we are a major player still on the international stage! G7S. Support for Ukraine. Soft power. All the ties YOU lot belittle and demean. I love all the multilateral treaties like maritime which bind the world together. I love free trade, something the brutal protectionist Cartel in Europe disdains, harming the developing world. I also like us having a seat on the UN Security Council, something frothing Remainers were happy for the EU to take from us. Funny that….America is not a bad federal independent state. But the EU is an oddity which can never ever match the USA. It is an outmoded systemically flawed (premature Euro) anti democratic new empire that sadly is not working. It is flailing around while the rest of the world chugs along with the norm; independent sovereign states with a direct democratic between the people and rulers.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Absurd!
People wanted more quangos because they did not trust politicians (short horizons – elections) to do the difficult things.
BofE and its independence is the perfect example.
People (the ones that cared about the issue) looked around and noticed that independent central banks (Bundesbank being the best example) was able to make tough decisions unlike BofE.
You might agree/disagree with that position but it was hardly a conspiracy.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

mmmm… the first ¾ of your contribution seems to be at odds with your final (and far more accurate) ¼.. Who indeed? Nigel Farrage maybe?

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Would you consider whether in an ever more integrated world the idea of a sovereign Nation State is obsolete? Are you stuck in the 19th century when Britannia ruled the waves?

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard 0

Superb article with so many insights. I can only add two further thoughts. One is architectural – a point I regularly bang away at. Many/most of us had failed to understand that the British State – not just the political classes inhabiting it – had been reshaped in the Blair Revolution to smooth our transition into a compliant EU Province. He set about neutering the power of the nation state and the Executive. The Brexit Project was not just facing the wrath of an EU pension-deprived vengeful political class – but an entire structure of governance designed to frustrate the emergence of powerful national executives. There was a scorched earth..we just failed to see it. So it is not just the deranged Remainiacs (wailing at the threat to their million pound property enrichment) whom we face…we still inhabit a Remainiac EU clone system of technocracy, devoution, quangos, BoE, Supreme Courts and devolution. A herculean task.. but we have – lets pray – decades in principle to re-build. The bigger problem is that Brexit is ultimately a People & Peasant and Provincial Rebellion. It has no leaders or party inside the System. The Tory Party was more Remainer than Brexit anyway (May Cameron Truss Hunt) and our nasty ghastly wfh civil servants have conspired successfully (shamefully) to defenestrate ALL the top 10 Brex ministers for cake and being bullies. Who can and will taje on the immense task of dismantling the vast EU New Order State that overshadows and cripples our society? Cummings knew it would be a dirty War. But he too has gone and the paralysed Fake Tories – first defeated by the Blob – now face electoral defeat as well. Who will use our new freedom to liberate us and reform this corrupt failing state? Who? How? When?

Richard 0
Richard 0
1 year ago
Reply to  George Sheerin

Agreed. Excellent article. Refreshing to get this kind of insight: he’s spot on.

George Sheerin
George Sheerin
1 year ago

At last, some flesh on the bones, for true Brexiteers, and some optimism, a great article.I look forward to reading his co authored book, and recampaining for electoral reform.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago

Ok. Well as a remoaner I think I could probably get behind this. The travel and trade were nice and easy but I accept they’re gone now. The trouble is, we just don’t have the politicians. I always derived comfort from the belief that as part of Europe, at least we had some grown ups keeping an eye on things. But as the article half points out, our entire political class is either hopelessly out of its depth or, I would argue, in politics serving darker interests. Still we all need hope. Electoral reform has to be the next project, surely?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

I disagree only one one point, namely the idea that there were “grown ups” in Brussels that might have at least retained some control. These people are rejects from the democratic establishments of European nations, second-raters who are even worse than those in Brussels-dependant elected governments.

It is true of course that Brexit isn’t going to be an easy win, but I’d point out that had the vote gone 52:48 the other way in 2016, we would quite certainly be concluding by now that we’d made a terrible mistake in 2016. We’d have already sacrificed monetary independence just at the point the Eurozone is about to stamp on the throat of European economic vitality yet again.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

“monetary policy” is what BofE does (interest rates and QE). Did you see UK joining EZ in 2023?
For a country that lives on debt (a fact not an opinion – check the numbers) the markets decides your monetary/fiscal policy! Think of LT’s experiment with governance.
And you get to vote…sadly!

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

I won’t be patronised by someone who so obviously hasn’t the first clue what he’s talking about.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

The Washington post wasn’t so sure (actually a number of sources weren’t but this gives you the gist)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/markets-didnt-oust-truss-the-bank-of-england-did/2022/10/26/dd92c4d2-54eb-11ed-ac8b-08bbfab1c5a5_story.html

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

I won’t be patronised by someone who so obviously hasn’t the first clue what he’s talking about.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

The Washington post wasn’t so sure (actually a number of sources weren’t but this gives you the gist)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/markets-didnt-oust-truss-the-bank-of-england-did/2022/10/26/dd92c4d2-54eb-11ed-ac8b-08bbfab1c5a5_story.html

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

After having observed the EU’s disastrous start with the vaccine procurement, I also had to chuckle at the thought of adults being in charge there.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

“monetary policy” is what BofE does (interest rates and QE). Did you see UK joining EZ in 2023?
For a country that lives on debt (a fact not an opinion – check the numbers) the markets decides your monetary/fiscal policy! Think of LT’s experiment with governance.
And you get to vote…sadly!

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

After having observed the EU’s disastrous start with the vaccine procurement, I also had to chuckle at the thought of adults being in charge there.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

You inadvertently describe the very mentality many Brexit supporters voted against.

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
1 year ago

I always derived comfort from the belief that as part of Europe, at least we had some grown ups keeping an eye on things.

You took comfort from the fate of this country being in the hands of technocrats and politicians in other countries?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

That seems reasonable IF, as he asserts, your homegrown politicians are silly, useless or worse crooked with a dark agenda. If you disagree with this assertion then the premise is, as you suggest, inaccurate.
I must also argue that, over the years we Irish had some of our best politicians in the EU..

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

“That seems reasonable IF, as he asserts, your homegrown politicians are silly, useless or worse crooked with a dark agenda.”

No, it emphatically does NOT mean any such thing. Read the article again: the reason the national political class in Britain is useless is that EU membership created the conditions in which mediocrities could survive politically, having had all the really big decisions taken out of their hands.

The solution to the problem is to fix the broken system so that competent people are in charge who can actually govern an independent nation.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Ray Basset had an interesting answer to that claim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyLMEW2QGrc

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

“That seems reasonable IF, as he asserts, your homegrown politicians are silly, useless or worse crooked with a dark agenda.”

No, it emphatically does NOT mean any such thing. Read the article again: the reason the national political class in Britain is useless is that EU membership created the conditions in which mediocrities could survive politically, having had all the really big decisions taken out of their hands.

The solution to the problem is to fix the broken system so that competent people are in charge who can actually govern an independent nation.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Ray Basset had an interesting answer to that claim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyLMEW2QGrc

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

Would you have Bundesbank watching over the value of money in your pocket or Bank of England?
Do you want the Germans to manage technical education or UK officials?
Do you want the French to build infrastructure or the British.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Setting up bogey straw men, the EU has not shafted Germans or French upon unsuspecting Brits. Anyway, the UK is the laggard economically among the G7 – maybe it would not have been such a bad idea. At least the Bundesbahn is better that the British railway system and where is the British answer to the German-French Airbus? De Haviland?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Blimey. And you get to vote, sadly.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Setting up bogey straw men, the EU has not shafted Germans or French upon unsuspecting Brits. Anyway, the UK is the laggard economically among the G7 – maybe it would not have been such a bad idea. At least the Bundesbahn is better that the British railway system and where is the British answer to the German-French Airbus? De Haviland?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Blimey. And you get to vote, sadly.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

That seems reasonable IF, as he asserts, your homegrown politicians are silly, useless or worse crooked with a dark agenda. If you disagree with this assertion then the premise is, as you suggest, inaccurate.
I must also argue that, over the years we Irish had some of our best politicians in the EU..

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

Would you have Bundesbank watching over the value of money in your pocket or Bank of England?
Do you want the Germans to manage technical education or UK officials?
Do you want the French to build infrastructure or the British.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

I suspect from reading this that you know little or nothing about the EU. I’ve noticed that is generally true of remainers. Remaining ignorant of the history, treaties and institutional machinery you are able to credit it with all sorts of virtues that it simply does not possess.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Oh yes, Leavers are very wise!

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

There is no requirement for leavers to know anything about the machinery EU since we have no desire to be part of any supranational oligarchy.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

There is no requirement for leavers to know anything about the machinery EU since we have no desire to be part of any supranational oligarchy.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Oh yes, Leavers are very wise!

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago

I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that the Rev Charles Dodgson is actually alive now. He has a time machine, nips back in time and records the beliefs and behaviours we have now in the Alice books. Humpty Dumpty’s ‘words mean what I want them to mean’ exchange with Alice is Wokery distilled.
When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master – that’s all.”
Then there is the belief the EU was full of grown ups.
“Alice laughed: “There’s no use trying,” she said; “one can’t believe impossible things.”
“I daresay you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
or the new ‘Non-racist maths’
The different branches of Arithmetic — Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision.
Then, finally for this post, modern politics.
“It’s very good jam,” said the Queen.
“Well, I don’t want any to-day, at any rate.”
“You couldn’t have it if you did want it,” the Queen said. “The rule is jam tomorrow and jam yesterday but never jam to-day.”
“It must come sometimes to “jam to-day,””Alice objected.
“No it can’t,” said the Queen. “It’s jam every other day; to-day isn’t any other day, you know.”
“I don’t understand you,” said Alice. “It’s dreadfully confusing.”

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

I disagree only one one point, namely the idea that there were “grown ups” in Brussels that might have at least retained some control. These people are rejects from the democratic establishments of European nations, second-raters who are even worse than those in Brussels-dependant elected governments.

It is true of course that Brexit isn’t going to be an easy win, but I’d point out that had the vote gone 52:48 the other way in 2016, we would quite certainly be concluding by now that we’d made a terrible mistake in 2016. We’d have already sacrificed monetary independence just at the point the Eurozone is about to stamp on the throat of European economic vitality yet again.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

You inadvertently describe the very mentality many Brexit supporters voted against.

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
1 year ago

I always derived comfort from the belief that as part of Europe, at least we had some grown ups keeping an eye on things.

You took comfort from the fate of this country being in the hands of technocrats and politicians in other countries?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

I suspect from reading this that you know little or nothing about the EU. I’ve noticed that is generally true of remainers. Remaining ignorant of the history, treaties and institutional machinery you are able to credit it with all sorts of virtues that it simply does not possess.

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago

I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that the Rev Charles Dodgson is actually alive now. He has a time machine, nips back in time and records the beliefs and behaviours we have now in the Alice books. Humpty Dumpty’s ‘words mean what I want them to mean’ exchange with Alice is Wokery distilled.
When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master – that’s all.”
Then there is the belief the EU was full of grown ups.
“Alice laughed: “There’s no use trying,” she said; “one can’t believe impossible things.”
“I daresay you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
or the new ‘Non-racist maths’
The different branches of Arithmetic — Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision.
Then, finally for this post, modern politics.
“It’s very good jam,” said the Queen.
“Well, I don’t want any to-day, at any rate.”
“You couldn’t have it if you did want it,” the Queen said. “The rule is jam tomorrow and jam yesterday but never jam to-day.”
“It must come sometimes to “jam to-day,””Alice objected.
“No it can’t,” said the Queen. “It’s jam every other day; to-day isn’t any other day, you know.”
“I don’t understand you,” said Alice. “It’s dreadfully confusing.”

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago

Ok. Well as a remoaner I think I could probably get behind this. The travel and trade were nice and easy but I accept they’re gone now. The trouble is, we just don’t have the politicians. I always derived comfort from the belief that as part of Europe, at least we had some grown ups keeping an eye on things. But as the article half points out, our entire political class is either hopelessly out of its depth or, I would argue, in politics serving darker interests. Still we all need hope. Electoral reform has to be the next project, surely?

David Winship
David Winship
1 year ago

Beautifully put. Perfect summation of why I voted for Brexit and why we are in the position we are. I have strived to get that message over to others and now have a wonderful “crib sheet”. Jeremy Corbyn’s brief rise was a testament not to his message but to the inherent conviction of his politics. His fall, the lack thereof in his party. Our “elite” need to grasp that those they disparage in the greater electorate have an innate ability to detect the essences, even if they lack the ability to voice them succinctly. Until the ballot box. I look forward to the demise of the old tired horses and their shabby riders of all hues and hopefully the re emerging of leaders who display wisdom rather them narrow focus chasing of the optics.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  David Winship

“Jeremy Corbyn’s brief rise was a testament not to his message but to the inherent conviction of his politics. His fall, the lack thereof in his party.”
Actually, his message was pretty popular too – especially among the under 40s.
It took a hell of a fight to bring him down.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

…and some dirty tricks.

John Clinch
John Clinch
1 year ago

And a general election! He lost!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Clinch

Pretty hard to win an election when your own party is against winning!

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Quite

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Quite

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Clinch

Pretty hard to win an election when your own party is against winning!

John Clinch
John Clinch
1 year ago

And a general election! He lost!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Perhaps he’s very man to achieve a true Brexit? The current Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber certainly aren’t going to step up to the plate, are they?
You need something really drastic and Corbyn is certainly drastic..
Step 1. massive “solidarity” (wealth) tax for the next 5 years with major sanctions on obscenely wealthy individuals trying to export their wealth..
Step 2. Nationalise all vital assets starting with water, utilites and energy.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

…and some dirty tricks.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Perhaps he’s very man to achieve a true Brexit? The current Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber certainly aren’t going to step up to the plate, are they?
You need something really drastic and Corbyn is certainly drastic..
Step 1. massive “solidarity” (wealth) tax for the next 5 years with major sanctions on obscenely wealthy individuals trying to export their wealth..
Step 2. Nationalise all vital assets starting with water, utilites and energy.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  David Winship

As we say in Cork: ” I hope ot stays fine for you boy” ..I really do. Good luck with that but I fear it will be a long time coming. Our Irexit (from the UK) took 50 years + the economic liberation and structural funds of the EU to achieve our now, relatively wealthy standard of living.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Your ‘Irexit’?

Your new Dublin elite are rapidly turning into Englishmen.
Georgian House, Trophy wife, Boat with the ‘Royal’ Irish Yacht Club, brats to Eton and possibly on to Oxbridge.!

It may have taken eight centuries Liam, but we have inadvertently turned ‘you’ into us!

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

An EU ‘offshore’ tax haven with future prospects? I thought only the ‘onshore’ Luxembourg had them.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Your ‘Irexit’?

Your new Dublin elite are rapidly turning into Englishmen.
Georgian House, Trophy wife, Boat with the ‘Royal’ Irish Yacht Club, brats to Eton and possibly on to Oxbridge.!

It may have taken eight centuries Liam, but we have inadvertently turned ‘you’ into us!

Simon Simple
Simon Simple
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

An EU ‘offshore’ tax haven with future prospects? I thought only the ‘onshore’ Luxembourg had them.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  David Winship

“Jeremy Corbyn’s brief rise was a testament not to his message but to the inherent conviction of his politics. His fall, the lack thereof in his party.”
Actually, his message was pretty popular too – especially among the under 40s.
It took a hell of a fight to bring him down.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  David Winship

As we say in Cork: ” I hope ot stays fine for you boy” ..I really do. Good luck with that but I fear it will be a long time coming. Our Irexit (from the UK) took 50 years + the economic liberation and structural funds of the EU to achieve our now, relatively wealthy standard of living.

David Winship
David Winship
1 year ago

Beautifully put. Perfect summation of why I voted for Brexit and why we are in the position we are. I have strived to get that message over to others and now have a wonderful “crib sheet”. Jeremy Corbyn’s brief rise was a testament not to his message but to the inherent conviction of his politics. His fall, the lack thereof in his party. Our “elite” need to grasp that those they disparage in the greater electorate have an innate ability to detect the essences, even if they lack the ability to voice them succinctly. Until the ballot box. I look forward to the demise of the old tired horses and their shabby riders of all hues and hopefully the re emerging of leaders who display wisdom rather them narrow focus chasing of the optics.

Paul Ten
Paul Ten
1 year ago

Excellent analysis, apart from this statement: ‘Without new politics and a new electoral system, our clapped-out political parties will continue to find their policies in the forums of the cosmopolitan elites….’. The author should provide some backing for that assertion. Our electoral system and party structure, as they evolved, have served the country through the industrial revolution, empire, two world wars, dissolution of empire, de-industrialisation, and massive social change.

It’s proportional electoral systems that loosen the link between electors and elected, by increasing the chances of backdoor deals. How else do we get to the situation where the Green Party seems to be effectively running Scotland on some miniscule share of the vote? We are not embarked on a project to create a nation state out of nothing. For most of our history, apart from a couple of recent decades, we have been a nation state, which our political structures served perfectly well. We just need to rediscover our muscle memory and apply it again.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Ten

I broadly agree with that. However, it should be said that the world is now a far more complex place to navigate (these pages demonstrate perfectly how that has come about) than in generations prior to the internet.
There are no “grand projects” to attach ourselves to, as there was with the industrial revolution, empire, world wars etc. That doesn’t – or needn’t – mean we can’t function as a nation state, but it’ll take a least another generation before we can clear the current malaise-driven blob from the corridors of Whitehall. Politicians with the vision and bottle to take that on – and no stupid foibles that can be exploited against them – would wipe the floor at any general election, and first-past-the-post would need to be retained to enable them to make sufficient impact.

Paul Ten
Paul Ten
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Well, I might argue that the world wars, the rise of fascism, the depression, the Cold War and the threat of communism were complex things to navigate. But I do in principle agree with you. The author, and many commentators, write as though aspiring to be a nation state again is a daunting, reckless, experimental step to take, whereas it’s the member-state concept that is unproven, made-up-as you-go-along and lacking democratic accountability. You are right, though, about clearing the malaise-driven blob out of power (good term!). This will take time, but you have to hope new leaders will step up to the challenge.

Paul Ten
Paul Ten
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Well, I might argue that the world wars, the rise of fascism, the depression, the Cold War and the threat of communism were complex things to navigate. But I do in principle agree with you. The author, and many commentators, write as though aspiring to be a nation state again is a daunting, reckless, experimental step to take, whereas it’s the member-state concept that is unproven, made-up-as you-go-along and lacking democratic accountability. You are right, though, about clearing the malaise-driven blob out of power (good term!). This will take time, but you have to hope new leaders will step up to the challenge.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Ten

I broadly agree with that. However, it should be said that the world is now a far more complex place to navigate (these pages demonstrate perfectly how that has come about) than in generations prior to the internet.
There are no “grand projects” to attach ourselves to, as there was with the industrial revolution, empire, world wars etc. That doesn’t – or needn’t – mean we can’t function as a nation state, but it’ll take a least another generation before we can clear the current malaise-driven blob from the corridors of Whitehall. Politicians with the vision and bottle to take that on – and no stupid foibles that can be exploited against them – would wipe the floor at any general election, and first-past-the-post would need to be retained to enable them to make sufficient impact.

Paul Ten
Paul Ten
1 year ago

Excellent analysis, apart from this statement: ‘Without new politics and a new electoral system, our clapped-out political parties will continue to find their policies in the forums of the cosmopolitan elites….’. The author should provide some backing for that assertion. Our electoral system and party structure, as they evolved, have served the country through the industrial revolution, empire, two world wars, dissolution of empire, de-industrialisation, and massive social change.

It’s proportional electoral systems that loosen the link between electors and elected, by increasing the chances of backdoor deals. How else do we get to the situation where the Green Party seems to be effectively running Scotland on some miniscule share of the vote? We are not embarked on a project to create a nation state out of nothing. For most of our history, apart from a couple of recent decades, we have been a nation state, which our political structures served perfectly well. We just need to rediscover our muscle memory and apply it again.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

I remember my father saying of Harold Wilson’s government, ‘They are just blown about by the wind.’ And to a surprising extent that is true of all governments. The reason is, they attempt too much. Modern society is so vast and complex that the gentleman in Whitehall is out of his depth most of the time. Politicians make speeches but fine words butter no parsnips and delivering on your policies is often, for a whole series of reasons, practically impossible.
The one thing politicians do have going for them is the ability to make things worse, which is what they generally do.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

I remember my father saying of Harold Wilson’s government, ‘They are just blown about by the wind.’ And to a surprising extent that is true of all governments. The reason is, they attempt too much. Modern society is so vast and complex that the gentleman in Whitehall is out of his depth most of the time. Politicians make speeches but fine words butter no parsnips and delivering on your policies is often, for a whole series of reasons, practically impossible.
The one thing politicians do have going for them is the ability to make things worse, which is what they generally do.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago

These are all well-reasoned and true arguments in favour of Brexit. The problem is that, like the proponents of Lexit, the author ignores the fact that that the people who were going to be charged with delivering Brexit, were the exact same gaggle of knaves*, poltroons** and nincompoops*** who had been in charge during our membership.

They were always going to balls it up because, as the author notes, it was obvious before the vote that they didn’t understand the problem that they were trying to solve – because the problem was, in fact, them. That’s why they couldn’t define what the goal of Brexit was, nor the benefits it would bring.

In another world, there might have been a period of sober reflection following the referendum – an acknowledgement that the winning faction represented a slim majority and that this majority was deeply split about what it wanted to achieve. Wise heads might have suggested that a constitutional convention was warranted, not only to figure out what we wanted but also to set an example of the type of polity we now had the freedom to be outside the shackles of the EU. Such a display of democratic legitimacy would actually have strengthened our hand in negotiating with the EU because it would have shown the restive citizens of European nations what they were missing out on.

But we didn’t get that did we? We got a Brexit run by the charlatans and chancers who made up the campaign and so we got the Mail, the Telegraph and the ERG screaming puce-face betrayal at anyone who had the temerity to make a serious go of working out what the electorate actually wanted before triggering article 50.

And then we had the miserable spectacle of a Government offering its electorate only a smorgasbord of bad options whilst holding a “no deal” gun to its own head.

So Brexiters are left with only two possible arguments – either “it didn’t have to be like this, if only the Government had done X” or “it was always going to be like this, but it’ll turn out better in the long run”.

To the author’s credit, he’s got the sense not to touch the former with a bargepole. The British elite, not an imaginary Brussels one, was and is the problem – they were never going to pass up the opportunity to make a rocket-propelled horlicks of a crisis of political legitimacy like Brexit.

So that leaves the second argument – the sort of accellerationist catastrophism formerly beloved of Leninists. Brexit was always going to be a disaster that the British elite would be unable to handle but it was necessary to provide them with this opportuntiy to demonstrate their total inadequacy so that they could collapse and we could build something better in the rubble. And maybe that’s right. But it wasn’t what 52% of the public were voting for. Which makes prating about the democratic mandate of Brexit rather beside the point.

I know a fair number of people who voted for Brexit. They disagree about why they did so but I’m pretty sure that none of them were voting for a second lost decade after the one that had followed the financial crisis.

* Johnson, Farrage,
** Gove, Cummings
*** May

Last edited 1 year ago by George Venning
George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago

These are all well-reasoned and true arguments in favour of Brexit. The problem is that, like the proponents of Lexit, the author ignores the fact that that the people who were going to be charged with delivering Brexit, were the exact same gaggle of knaves*, poltroons** and nincompoops*** who had been in charge during our membership.

They were always going to balls it up because, as the author notes, it was obvious before the vote that they didn’t understand the problem that they were trying to solve – because the problem was, in fact, them. That’s why they couldn’t define what the goal of Brexit was, nor the benefits it would bring.

In another world, there might have been a period of sober reflection following the referendum – an acknowledgement that the winning faction represented a slim majority and that this majority was deeply split about what it wanted to achieve. Wise heads might have suggested that a constitutional convention was warranted, not only to figure out what we wanted but also to set an example of the type of polity we now had the freedom to be outside the shackles of the EU. Such a display of democratic legitimacy would actually have strengthened our hand in negotiating with the EU because it would have shown the restive citizens of European nations what they were missing out on.

But we didn’t get that did we? We got a Brexit run by the charlatans and chancers who made up the campaign and so we got the Mail, the Telegraph and the ERG screaming puce-face betrayal at anyone who had the temerity to make a serious go of working out what the electorate actually wanted before triggering article 50.

And then we had the miserable spectacle of a Government offering its electorate only a smorgasbord of bad options whilst holding a “no deal” gun to its own head.

So Brexiters are left with only two possible arguments – either “it didn’t have to be like this, if only the Government had done X” or “it was always going to be like this, but it’ll turn out better in the long run”.

To the author’s credit, he’s got the sense not to touch the former with a bargepole. The British elite, not an imaginary Brussels one, was and is the problem – they were never going to pass up the opportunity to make a rocket-propelled horlicks of a crisis of political legitimacy like Brexit.

So that leaves the second argument – the sort of accellerationist catastrophism formerly beloved of Leninists. Brexit was always going to be a disaster that the British elite would be unable to handle but it was necessary to provide them with this opportuntiy to demonstrate their total inadequacy so that they could collapse and we could build something better in the rubble. And maybe that’s right. But it wasn’t what 52% of the public were voting for. Which makes prating about the democratic mandate of Brexit rather beside the point.

I know a fair number of people who voted for Brexit. They disagree about why they did so but I’m pretty sure that none of them were voting for a second lost decade after the one that had followed the financial crisis.

* Johnson, Farrage,
** Gove, Cummings
*** May

Last edited 1 year ago by George Venning
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

This is excellent. Finally an article which gets to the core issue of why central government likes being in the EU and the reluctance to change. The blurred accountability means that British politicians can hide behind the EU and pass the blame on just as much as EU politicians can do the same. The power of UK politicians is perhaps not as diminished as we imagined – but their burden of responsibility was far smaller – hence a far more attractive power:responsibility ratio for them while operating under EU “cover”.
Being in the EU also enabled them to do things that they knew they could not within a truly independent UK.
I think the author is right and that we failed to understand the massive inertia of central government and the civil service and the reasons for this.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

This is excellent. Finally an article which gets to the core issue of why central government likes being in the EU and the reluctance to change. The blurred accountability means that British politicians can hide behind the EU and pass the blame on just as much as EU politicians can do the same. The power of UK politicians is perhaps not as diminished as we imagined – but their burden of responsibility was far smaller – hence a far more attractive power:responsibility ratio for them while operating under EU “cover”.
Being in the EU also enabled them to do things that they knew they could not within a truly independent UK.
I think the author is right and that we failed to understand the massive inertia of central government and the civil service and the reasons for this.

David Graham
David Graham
1 year ago

‘ Labour will probably take power next year on a reduced turnout and be widely loathed within months.’
Why wait that long. The time is always now.

David Graham
David Graham
1 year ago

‘ Labour will probably take power next year on a reduced turnout and be widely loathed within months.’
Why wait that long. The time is always now.

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago

I voted remain for economic reasons but I was so disgusted by the way Merkel et al treated a British prime minister that it made me loathe them.
Whatever happens we’re better off I think forging closer relations with our cousins in the Anglosphere than bothering with the French or Germans any more – I don’t think they ever really did anything other than treat us with contempt.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

Same here. Voted remain because I knew British politicians were useless and thought the risk too great but now loathe the EU intensely. If I could vote again today, it’d be Leave.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

Same here. Voted remain because I knew British politicians were useless and thought the risk too great but now loathe the EU intensely. If I could vote again today, it’d be Leave.

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago

I voted remain for economic reasons but I was so disgusted by the way Merkel et al treated a British prime minister that it made me loathe them.
Whatever happens we’re better off I think forging closer relations with our cousins in the Anglosphere than bothering with the French or Germans any more – I don’t think they ever really did anything other than treat us with contempt.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

Whilst this is an excellent article, it’s also one in danger of adding to the “Brexit has failed” narrative so carefully being nurtured at the moment.
There are several points here that need to be challenged in order to avoid this false narrative becoming accepted:
1) Regardless of any othe factors, it is simply too early to judge – not enough time has passed for things to settle to a new equilibrium and there have been too many outlier events muddying the picture (Covid, Ukraine war).
2) As the article rightly points out, the majority of the British state has been passively – and sometimes actively – engaged in trying to prevent, obstruct and undermine any benefits we may expect. In short, we haven’t been seriously trying to make it work.
3) There has been no “disaster” attributable to Brexit, despite what I read about “Brexit disasters” every day. And despite what George Osborne et al were so emphatic would happen.
4) No one is seriously considering what the consequences of remaining in the EU would have been and would be in future for the UK. I note here that the EU commission is once again sending out the begging bowl for more money. Quite impossible for them to actually considering actually adjusting their expenses to their income ! The Germans can’t pay any more. We’d be on the hook. Again.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

Whilst this is an excellent article, it’s also one in danger of adding to the “Brexit has failed” narrative so carefully being nurtured at the moment.
There are several points here that need to be challenged in order to avoid this false narrative becoming accepted:
1) Regardless of any othe factors, it is simply too early to judge – not enough time has passed for things to settle to a new equilibrium and there have been too many outlier events muddying the picture (Covid, Ukraine war).
2) As the article rightly points out, the majority of the British state has been passively – and sometimes actively – engaged in trying to prevent, obstruct and undermine any benefits we may expect. In short, we haven’t been seriously trying to make it work.
3) There has been no “disaster” attributable to Brexit, despite what I read about “Brexit disasters” every day. And despite what George Osborne et al were so emphatic would happen.
4) No one is seriously considering what the consequences of remaining in the EU would have been and would be in future for the UK. I note here that the EU commission is once again sending out the begging bowl for more money. Quite impossible for them to actually considering actually adjusting their expenses to their income ! The Germans can’t pay any more. We’d be on the hook. Again.

David Giles
David Giles
1 year ago

What a wonderful article! And how accurate a description of our political parties, all of them. On the one hand the Brexiteers have bene hamstrung by their – OUR – phrase taking BACK control. As Peter Ramsay so succinctly notes, we cannot go back, only forward. When we joined the EEC we left behind a world of high tariff and limited global trade, we were a post-colonial nation that still hadn’t reformed our vision of ourselves. We enter a new world of global treaty organisations and as a multi-ethnic, immigrant-heavy island, almost a city-state. We did not expect to win and we still lack a vision of what our settlement should look and feel like.
The Remainers are frankly pathetic, unable even to comprehend the basic inequality 52>48. They lost a referendum when they had the prime minister, chancellor, opposition, Parliament itself, the CBI, the TUC, the BBC, the CoE, academia and every other lever of State. They still demand to know from the winners how and why they dared to vote as they did.
So any real vision for our country is absent. real questions unanswered, such as “Why do we subsidise an outdated, low volume and elitist transport system such as rail when local and regional transport that could make a difference to people’s quality of life, e.g. buses, is neglected? Why do we spend our time worrying about regulating successful sports whilst leaving the others to whither?
There are many, many, many questions, far more important questions; perhaps other contributors would like to add to the list…

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  David Giles

It’s nowhere near 52>48 anymore, even before you factor-in natural wastage. If Scotland was granted independence (not really a live issue now, obviously) on such a narrow margin, the English Exceptionalists would be out with their pitchforks.

Christopher Thompson
Christopher Thompson
1 year ago

It was a narrow margin, but how many Irish residents in the UK voted Remain in obedience to the instructions issued by the Taoiseach? Would the result have been different if college and university lecturers had refrained from proselytising for the Remain camp, or if the Brexit case had been presented fairly by the media? How many students voted Remain twice, once from from their term-time address and once from their home address, as they were encouraged to by, for example, a professor at Nottingham Trent University?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

It is probable that not just Irish but every EU (dual) national in the UK voted remain and for very obvious reasons (that every British holidaymaker is now only too aware of!)
One would have thought British expats in Spain would have done likewise but it seems many voted leave.. and then had to… leave Spain! It is probably young, upwardly mobile, cosmopolitan, smart, academic voters all voted Remain.. while every little Englander, Alf Garnet type, gullible, naïve, old codger voted Leave.. but I’m not sure how that clarifies matters?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

It is probable that not just Irish but every EU (dual) national in the UK voted remain and for very obvious reasons (that every British holidaymaker is now only too aware of!)
One would have thought British expats in Spain would have done likewise but it seems many voted leave.. and then had to… leave Spain! It is probably young, upwardly mobile, cosmopolitan, smart, academic voters all voted Remain.. while every little Englander, Alf Garnet type, gullible, naïve, old codger voted Leave.. but I’m not sure how that clarifies matters?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Really? Most if not all Englishmen I know would be happy to see the Jocks heaved out of the Union 51/49.

As the late late Guy Fawkes so beautifully put it:-
“to blow you Scotch beggars back to your native mountains”.

Christopher Thompson
Christopher Thompson
1 year ago

It was a narrow margin, but how many Irish residents in the UK voted Remain in obedience to the instructions issued by the Taoiseach? Would the result have been different if college and university lecturers had refrained from proselytising for the Remain camp, or if the Brexit case had been presented fairly by the media? How many students voted Remain twice, once from from their term-time address and once from their home address, as they were encouraged to by, for example, a professor at Nottingham Trent University?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Really? Most if not all Englishmen I know would be happy to see the Jocks heaved out of the Union 51/49.

As the late late Guy Fawkes so beautifully put it:-
“to blow you Scotch beggars back to your native mountains”.

John Clinch
John Clinch
1 year ago
Reply to  David Giles

Wrong. Of course we know that 52% is higher than 48%. What we are unable to comprehend is how you lot could vote for something when, even now, on your own admission you haven’t a clue what it was.
So the ‘real questions’ that concern you are about buses and sports. Fair enough – everyone has their hobby-horse, though usually not quite so ersatz. Nothing to do with the EU, of course.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  David Giles

Hold on a moment. Global trade and free trade is far more in the DNA of this country than it is of France, Germany or the EU. That’s how we got rich and successful in the first place.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

GB got rich trading the way American is now getting rich trading.. with the threat of brutal military force and economic sanctions so as to ensure 90% for the strong trader and 10% for the weak defenseless trader.. However, that option isn’t available to the UK any longer with the demise of neocolonialism; and will soon not be available to the US due to de-dollarisation and BRICS++ domination.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

GB got rich trading the way American is now getting rich trading.. with the threat of brutal military force and economic sanctions so as to ensure 90% for the strong trader and 10% for the weak defenseless trader.. However, that option isn’t available to the UK any longer with the demise of neocolonialism; and will soon not be available to the US due to de-dollarisation and BRICS++ domination.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  David Giles

I read a rather brilliant lawyer address the impac the Euro/Napoleonic Codification system of law upon the vitality and freedom of entrepreneurs in Europe. He argued – and it makes sense – that a process which has one draw up laws for everything in advance leads you to – guess what? – the precautionary principle!!! This explains the heavy relentless regulatory nightmare that the EU machine is famous for!!! And which is still embedded in our laws ( ergo two nets and a bat can stop 2 reservoir, 3 international airports, 6 motorways and homes for the 6m unplanned Euro folk who wandered freely in to the UK). By contrast, the rival Anglo Saxon system of Common Law – rightly described as the jewel of our culture – is far more free and so permits dynamic free innovation and wealth creation! This is yet another reason why the Project to restore political and legal independence from the overbearing misfiring EU was and is a necessity.. before the Great now wholly detached Domestic Blob of Zombie EU Elitists in London (so well skewered here) sink us all.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  David Giles

It’s nowhere near 52>48 anymore, even before you factor-in natural wastage. If Scotland was granted independence (not really a live issue now, obviously) on such a narrow margin, the English Exceptionalists would be out with their pitchforks.

John Clinch
John Clinch
1 year ago
Reply to  David Giles

Wrong. Of course we know that 52% is higher than 48%. What we are unable to comprehend is how you lot could vote for something when, even now, on your own admission you haven’t a clue what it was.
So the ‘real questions’ that concern you are about buses and sports. Fair enough – everyone has their hobby-horse, though usually not quite so ersatz. Nothing to do with the EU, of course.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  David Giles

Hold on a moment. Global trade and free trade is far more in the DNA of this country than it is of France, Germany or the EU. That’s how we got rich and successful in the first place.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  David Giles

I read a rather brilliant lawyer address the impac the Euro/Napoleonic Codification system of law upon the vitality and freedom of entrepreneurs in Europe. He argued – and it makes sense – that a process which has one draw up laws for everything in advance leads you to – guess what? – the precautionary principle!!! This explains the heavy relentless regulatory nightmare that the EU machine is famous for!!! And which is still embedded in our laws ( ergo two nets and a bat can stop 2 reservoir, 3 international airports, 6 motorways and homes for the 6m unplanned Euro folk who wandered freely in to the UK). By contrast, the rival Anglo Saxon system of Common Law – rightly described as the jewel of our culture – is far more free and so permits dynamic free innovation and wealth creation! This is yet another reason why the Project to restore political and legal independence from the overbearing misfiring EU was and is a necessity.. before the Great now wholly detached Domestic Blob of Zombie EU Elitists in London (so well skewered here) sink us all.

David Giles
David Giles
1 year ago

What a wonderful article! And how accurate a description of our political parties, all of them. On the one hand the Brexiteers have bene hamstrung by their – OUR – phrase taking BACK control. As Peter Ramsay so succinctly notes, we cannot go back, only forward. When we joined the EEC we left behind a world of high tariff and limited global trade, we were a post-colonial nation that still hadn’t reformed our vision of ourselves. We enter a new world of global treaty organisations and as a multi-ethnic, immigrant-heavy island, almost a city-state. We did not expect to win and we still lack a vision of what our settlement should look and feel like.
The Remainers are frankly pathetic, unable even to comprehend the basic inequality 52>48. They lost a referendum when they had the prime minister, chancellor, opposition, Parliament itself, the CBI, the TUC, the BBC, the CoE, academia and every other lever of State. They still demand to know from the winners how and why they dared to vote as they did.
So any real vision for our country is absent. real questions unanswered, such as “Why do we subsidise an outdated, low volume and elitist transport system such as rail when local and regional transport that could make a difference to people’s quality of life, e.g. buses, is neglected? Why do we spend our time worrying about regulating successful sports whilst leaving the others to whither?
There are many, many, many questions, far more important questions; perhaps other contributors would like to add to the list…

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
1 year ago

The author is quite right. Although the country may have escaped from the institution, our political parties, Civil Service and others who hold positions of power an influence in our society, are fully institutionalised.
That day after, there was much naivety about what was going to happen next. The fact that our exit and the future direction was being turned over to a party that had campaigned to remain in the bloc was an obvious problem. But back then it was not apparent how compromised the Tories were, and how empty the faux nationalist bluster they had been spouting for years was.
Europe is turning to the Right. Leftist “progressive” ideology in relation to economics, immigration, multicuturalism, moral relativism, gender, etc, etc, is imploding after meeting reality.
My personal objection to proportional representation has been that in practice it has led to dainty, supposed centre-right parties colluding with leftist “progessives” to exclude parties they regard as having “unnacceptable” right-wing views. But the complete failure of every aspect of the ideology and world view of the international “elite” is finally giving genuine right-wing parties the votes to get power.
The Tories have fundamentally conceded every politically ideological argument to the Left. The next GE will essentially be about the rate at which the country descends into further economic and societal collapse.
People hope that a severe punishment beating of the Tory Party at the ballot box will result in the emergence of nationalist, right-wing part that will put the interests of the British people first. On consideration, the chances of this happening are beyond neglible.
As the author says, politically we are in a deadlock in which both the Tories and Labour and all those that hold power and influence in Britain are fundementally ideologically committed to the international leftist, “progressive” agenda. PR now appears to be the only way to smash through our failed party political consensus.

Last edited 1 year ago by Marcus Leach
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Sounds like you want to keep British politics as winner-take-all, in the hope that some day your friends can get 100% unopposed power to force through changes that could not command a majority in the electorate. Much the same reason that Corbyn and the Labour left prefer first-past-the-post.

There is actually an alternative, with PR. Denmark has some quite draconian immigration laws now, with clear majority support both in the population and in parliament. The right-wing populists who first pushed for this never got to run the government (though they have supported several), but the threat of them growing and growing made it clear to even the Labour party that continuing to be pro-immigration would cost it too many votes and the chance of getting back into power. Maybe that approach is a healthier way to adjust policies to popular will?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Sounds like you want to keep British politics as winner-take-all, in the hope that some day your friends can get 100% unopposed power to force through changes that could not command a majority in the electorate. Much the same reason that Corbyn and the Labour left prefer first-past-the-post.

There is actually an alternative, with PR. Denmark has some quite draconian immigration laws now, with clear majority support both in the population and in parliament. The right-wing populists who first pushed for this never got to run the government (though they have supported several), but the threat of them growing and growing made it clear to even the Labour party that continuing to be pro-immigration would cost it too many votes and the chance of getting back into power. Maybe that approach is a healthier way to adjust policies to popular will?

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
1 year ago

The author is quite right. Although the country may have escaped from the institution, our political parties, Civil Service and others who hold positions of power an influence in our society, are fully institutionalised.
That day after, there was much naivety about what was going to happen next. The fact that our exit and the future direction was being turned over to a party that had campaigned to remain in the bloc was an obvious problem. But back then it was not apparent how compromised the Tories were, and how empty the faux nationalist bluster they had been spouting for years was.
Europe is turning to the Right. Leftist “progressive” ideology in relation to economics, immigration, multicuturalism, moral relativism, gender, etc, etc, is imploding after meeting reality.
My personal objection to proportional representation has been that in practice it has led to dainty, supposed centre-right parties colluding with leftist “progessives” to exclude parties they regard as having “unnacceptable” right-wing views. But the complete failure of every aspect of the ideology and world view of the international “elite” is finally giving genuine right-wing parties the votes to get power.
The Tories have fundamentally conceded every politically ideological argument to the Left. The next GE will essentially be about the rate at which the country descends into further economic and societal collapse.
People hope that a severe punishment beating of the Tory Party at the ballot box will result in the emergence of nationalist, right-wing part that will put the interests of the British people first. On consideration, the chances of this happening are beyond neglible.
As the author says, politically we are in a deadlock in which both the Tories and Labour and all those that hold power and influence in Britain are fundementally ideologically committed to the international leftist, “progressive” agenda. PR now appears to be the only way to smash through our failed party political consensus.

Last edited 1 year ago by Marcus Leach
Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

A terrific article. Our future is indeed in our own hands but our political class is too afraid of its own shadow to grasp the opportunity.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

A terrific article. Our future is indeed in our own hands but our political class is too afraid of its own shadow to grasp the opportunity.

Kenneth Brownell
Kenneth Brownell
1 year ago

I agree with the previous contributor and others that this is one of the best articles on the meaning and significance of Brexit. Every so often one reads an article that brilliantly illuminates and clarifies something and this is one such. It needs to be widely read. The big issue is what politicians will rise to the challenge.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

..from where I’m standing my guess is… none!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

..from where I’m standing my guess is… none!

Kenneth Brownell
Kenneth Brownell
1 year ago

I agree with the previous contributor and others that this is one of the best articles on the meaning and significance of Brexit. Every so often one reads an article that brilliantly illuminates and clarifies something and this is one such. It needs to be widely read. The big issue is what politicians will rise to the challenge.

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago

Bravo

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago

Bravo

Eamonn Toland
Eamonn Toland
1 year ago

The failure to recognise this meant that the Eurosceptics did not understand the process they had set in motion, and that Brexit was unlikely to go well — a fact confirmed by Boris Johnson’s and Michael Gove’s infamous rabbits-in-the-headlights press conference later that day.”
I know people were offended by Donald Tusk’s comment that there was a special place in hell reserved for those who promoted Brexit – but he did qualify this by adding “without a plan” – political leadership post Brexit was a far cry from the foreign policy titans of Britain’s past. The picture of David Davis without any notes at a negotiation with Michel Barnier reinforced the impression of politicians winging it while making scarcely credible statements about holding all the cards.
“But, if the true heart of member-statehood is the evasion of political accountability at home, then the underlying problem was still going to be with us, in or out of the EU.”
Britain could have done a great deal more to assert national sovereignty within the EU than it ever attempted, and citizens had an opportunity to have a more accountable political class through electoral reform, but the populace rejected changes to the First Past The Post system while the country was still in the EU.
If Brexit has exposed the feet of clay within the British body politic, then electoral reform is still urgently needed to increase accountability. That is more likely to happen by creating local multi-seat constituencies with transferable votes (similar to Ireland north and south) than in continental-style proportional representation systems where voters select a preferred party that gets a pre-determined slate of candidates into parliament at a national level.

Eamonn Toland
Eamonn Toland
1 year ago

The failure to recognise this meant that the Eurosceptics did not understand the process they had set in motion, and that Brexit was unlikely to go well — a fact confirmed by Boris Johnson’s and Michael Gove’s infamous rabbits-in-the-headlights press conference later that day.”
I know people were offended by Donald Tusk’s comment that there was a special place in hell reserved for those who promoted Brexit – but he did qualify this by adding “without a plan” – political leadership post Brexit was a far cry from the foreign policy titans of Britain’s past. The picture of David Davis without any notes at a negotiation with Michel Barnier reinforced the impression of politicians winging it while making scarcely credible statements about holding all the cards.
“But, if the true heart of member-statehood is the evasion of political accountability at home, then the underlying problem was still going to be with us, in or out of the EU.”
Britain could have done a great deal more to assert national sovereignty within the EU than it ever attempted, and citizens had an opportunity to have a more accountable political class through electoral reform, but the populace rejected changes to the First Past The Post system while the country was still in the EU.
If Brexit has exposed the feet of clay within the British body politic, then electoral reform is still urgently needed to increase accountability. That is more likely to happen by creating local multi-seat constituencies with transferable votes (similar to Ireland north and south) than in continental-style proportional representation systems where voters select a preferred party that gets a pre-determined slate of candidates into parliament at a national level.

Ben Dhonau
Ben Dhonau
1 year ago

The analysis of how the EU works is excellent, and the lack of accountability for parliamentary approval of Decisions by the Council of Ministers is key. However, iIt was always open to any Member State to require that the Executive receive Parliamentary approval before raritiying a proposed decision., Of course they don’t want to do that and the UK Government still does not wish to account for decisions if it can get away with it nor, perish the thought, to involve the populace The strong power of party discipline makes most Commons scrutiny a farce.The profoundly undemoctatic Lores does a better job.
What I did not see in the article is what could be done to remedy this deficit. Rather it descends into pious academic generalities. Brexit may have made the issue clearer but EU Membership did little to cause it other than t provide a smokescreen. .Solutions to the excessive powers and unaccountability of the Executive lie at home as they always did.

Ben Dhonau
Ben Dhonau
1 year ago

The analysis of how the EU works is excellent, and the lack of accountability for parliamentary approval of Decisions by the Council of Ministers is key. However, iIt was always open to any Member State to require that the Executive receive Parliamentary approval before raritiying a proposed decision., Of course they don’t want to do that and the UK Government still does not wish to account for decisions if it can get away with it nor, perish the thought, to involve the populace The strong power of party discipline makes most Commons scrutiny a farce.The profoundly undemoctatic Lores does a better job.
What I did not see in the article is what could be done to remedy this deficit. Rather it descends into pious academic generalities. Brexit may have made the issue clearer but EU Membership did little to cause it other than t provide a smokescreen. .Solutions to the excessive powers and unaccountability of the Executive lie at home as they always did.

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago

The Labour Party was always an internationalist organisation at Parliamentary level, kept in check by the mass voting of its Trades Union members who held very different opinions. After about 1995 they were gone, the Conservative Opposition destroyed and New Labour was free to embark upon its self-defined voyage.

The Conservative Party had the problem that its historic function as the “Party of business” was largely obsolete by the 1960s, allowing its internal schism over Europe to become a dominant factor. The EU captured Heath (how DID this quintessentially middle class figure afford ocean yacht racing?) and we were steered into Europe by deceit.

The collapse of the USSR on 1989-92 changed everything. Suddenly the EU had a huge pool of cheap labour and severe political problems. At this crucial moment, the Consetvatives unddrwent an internal coup agaivst the rapidly failing Mrs Thstcher

The Consetvative Party wanted a smokescreen for its policy of Third World immigration (its important to understand that EU migration never exceeded Third World immigration at any time).

Conservative politicians were now committed to mass immigration; they were helplessly in thrall to the banking sector, which promised the moon and sixpence and which they did not understand, far less control. They could not accept that Europe’s promises of money and sincures would never be kept, and swallowed them willingly – even after the truth became obvious.

They could not, in fact govern effectively in any sense. They had no coherent plan and no useful skills. Blair’s Constitutional vandalism could proceed in the knowledge that the Consetvatives were utterly useless as an Opposition.

Cameron reorganised the Conservatives and rendered them impotent by doing so.

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago

The Labour Party was always an internationalist organisation at Parliamentary level, kept in check by the mass voting of its Trades Union members who held very different opinions. After about 1995 they were gone, the Conservative Opposition destroyed and New Labour was free to embark upon its self-defined voyage.

The Conservative Party had the problem that its historic function as the “Party of business” was largely obsolete by the 1960s, allowing its internal schism over Europe to become a dominant factor. The EU captured Heath (how DID this quintessentially middle class figure afford ocean yacht racing?) and we were steered into Europe by deceit.

The collapse of the USSR on 1989-92 changed everything. Suddenly the EU had a huge pool of cheap labour and severe political problems. At this crucial moment, the Consetvatives unddrwent an internal coup agaivst the rapidly failing Mrs Thstcher

The Consetvative Party wanted a smokescreen for its policy of Third World immigration (its important to understand that EU migration never exceeded Third World immigration at any time).

Conservative politicians were now committed to mass immigration; they were helplessly in thrall to the banking sector, which promised the moon and sixpence and which they did not understand, far less control. They could not accept that Europe’s promises of money and sincures would never be kept, and swallowed them willingly – even after the truth became obvious.

They could not, in fact govern effectively in any sense. They had no coherent plan and no useful skills. Blair’s Constitutional vandalism could proceed in the knowledge that the Consetvatives were utterly useless as an Opposition.

Cameron reorganised the Conservatives and rendered them impotent by doing so.

Edward Hocknell
Edward Hocknell
1 year ago

As vague as the usual Brexit stuff. How is this reinvigorated governance to be achieved?The key issue is immigration. Johnson chose to do the opposite, in spades, to what he promised. If your rulers lie on this scale, why vote?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

Because the alternative to voting is infinitely worse.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

Because the alternative to voting is infinitely worse.

Edward Hocknell
Edward Hocknell
1 year ago

As vague as the usual Brexit stuff. How is this reinvigorated governance to be achieved?The key issue is immigration. Johnson chose to do the opposite, in spades, to what he promised. If your rulers lie on this scale, why vote?

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago

Best article I have read about Brexit for ages, thank you!

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago

Best article I have read about Brexit for ages, thank you!

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 year ago

National sovereinty means not being responsible, not being in cahoots with the Grim Council who did what they did to Greece or for all of those refugees left to drown in the Mediterranean.
Perhaps, when all is said and done, the UK will be a better nation without neccessarily being stronger or richer. Morals, agency and pride are still meaningful, despite what the economists might say.
But the political problems that the British are having seem to be common among most of the democracies of the post-industrial West. They have little to do with Brexit. You all will continue to go at each other, hammers and tongs, just like here in the States we do over gun control (since JFK was shot), until the systemic flaws in the concept of “representative democracy” are fixed.
Spoiler Alert! The most serious flaw is “political parties”!

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 year ago

National sovereinty means not being responsible, not being in cahoots with the Grim Council who did what they did to Greece or for all of those refugees left to drown in the Mediterranean.
Perhaps, when all is said and done, the UK will be a better nation without neccessarily being stronger or richer. Morals, agency and pride are still meaningful, despite what the economists might say.
But the political problems that the British are having seem to be common among most of the democracies of the post-industrial West. They have little to do with Brexit. You all will continue to go at each other, hammers and tongs, just like here in the States we do over gun control (since JFK was shot), until the systemic flaws in the concept of “representative democracy” are fixed.
Spoiler Alert! The most serious flaw is “political parties”!

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
1 year ago

The chickens are coming home to roost. The next government will have to choose between turning families with young children onto the street or forcing the banks and other financial firms to take a big hit for their irresponsible lending. Possibly a big enough hit to make them insolvent. The financial crisis will expose the hollowness of the post-industrial British economy. Government finances are already a mess and the gilts market is approaching crisis levels. We are running out of easy options. All that will be left is a choice between hard options.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

There is one clear option still on the table and of ordinary Brits had balls like the French they’d be screaming it from the rooftops.. a WEALTH TAX would solve the current problem overnight.. the wealth in the UK is of mind-blowing proportions (having looted half the world it’d be odd of all thar loot had disappeared!).. I heard a figure of over £14.6trn. Omitting homes up to £½m in value a 5% tax on wealth should yield what? £500bn? Problem solved.. piece o’ cake, right?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

There is one clear option still on the table and of ordinary Brits had balls like the French they’d be screaming it from the rooftops.. a WEALTH TAX would solve the current problem overnight.. the wealth in the UK is of mind-blowing proportions (having looted half the world it’d be odd of all thar loot had disappeared!).. I heard a figure of over £14.6trn. Omitting homes up to £½m in value a 5% tax on wealth should yield what? £500bn? Problem solved.. piece o’ cake, right?

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
1 year ago

The chickens are coming home to roost. The next government will have to choose between turning families with young children onto the street or forcing the banks and other financial firms to take a big hit for their irresponsible lending. Possibly a big enough hit to make them insolvent. The financial crisis will expose the hollowness of the post-industrial British economy. Government finances are already a mess and the gilts market is approaching crisis levels. We are running out of easy options. All that will be left is a choice between hard options.

Paul MacDonnell
Paul MacDonnell
1 year ago

This is a remarkably good analysis.

Paul MacDonnell
Paul MacDonnell
1 year ago

This is a remarkably good analysis.

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago

Oddly enough, this essay highlights almost the exact reasons I never voted.

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago

Oddly enough, this essay highlights almost the exact reasons I never voted.

mjhauxwell
mjhauxwell
1 year ago

So, an object lesson in weakness. I dither and whine and bleat about not being adequately represented? Then I continue to vote for the inept chumps who mismanaged this nonsense—gaining nothing.
This is supposed to be somehow a virtuous self-effacement.
Just feckless, weak mawkishness.

John Callender
John Callender
1 year ago

Brilliant article, many thanks!

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

Test message for Unherd Tech

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

Further test for Unherd Tech (2)

Peter Hall
Peter Hall
1 year ago

Local government is a big part of the failure of modern Britain. It delivers really poor services and embeds local political corruption with most British cities run to reward Labor voters with jobs and social housing. Return power to the parish council level, push policing and many other functions to properly disciplined national agencies and give citizens the power to choose their providers of other services from a competitive market through education, social care and healthcare credits and cards paid for by central government and means tested. Cut waste and risk.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago

And not a single word about the sclerotic state of the British economy where grannies still freeze in the dark?

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago

And not a single word about the sclerotic state of the British economy where grannies still freeze in the dark?

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Brexit has also stumped you mate, if the woolliness of your article is any guide.
The Brexiter creed has always, ironically, been Napoleonic: “On s’engage et puis on voit”.
Could we please see detailed, workable proposals? Not the usual bumptious, holier-than-thou Breliever rhetoric.
After ploughing through the long litany of moans and sneers, I’m genuinely struggling to see where the writer’s practical change agenda is.
Occasionally, through the miasma of smugness, we get hints of something which approaches practicalities, e.g.:
“… Without new politics and a new electoral system …”
“… a process of investment in the nation’s people and in the infrastructure, both economic and political …”
“ … a new project of national sovereignty …”
Please note that I’m not disagreeing with you, for the simple reason that your article is so devoid of practical specifics that there is practically nothing to agree or disagree with.
 “ … a new project of national sovereignty …” you say? Sounds great!  But what on earth does that look like? What new politics? What new electoral system? Abandoning representative democracy and opting for a plebiscite democracy? Do tell.
“a process of investment in the nation’s people and in the infrastructure” – again, sounds promising, but can you flesh it out? Are you a closet commie?   
Could you please enlighten us? What – exactly – are you talking about?
You’ve had 7+ years to produce something workable.
A detailed reform agenda. Something concrete. Anything.
Am I just being naïve in expecting hard-edged practical proposals from a Brexiter? 
You seem perpetually un-moored from reality. It’s like engaging with a religious cult. Belief is all, and to perdition with the boring workaday details.

Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Yup

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

The Uk has so much in common with other European countries. Culture, history, and the fact that Paris is nearer London than Newcastle! Surely it would have been much better to stay with your peer group, perhaps as a disruptive member, than go chasing will-of-the-wisps in the “southern hemisphere”.
Brexit was utter madness. And now we have more confirmation of the craziness of it in this article by Peter Ramsey. The vote was for leave or stay – no mention of any constitutional changes was ever made. Just a straight yes or no. Did he have insider knowledge and expected as a Professor of Law to be writing this new constitution? That case he was very very badly misinformed!
Anyway – will any constitution revitalize Britain? Explain why?
I can see that this article is welcome red meat to a starved gang of Brexiters who lurk on Unherd. A strange bunch who, if we met, I would probably have much in common, except for my much more realistic picture of the UK’s now minor place in the world.

Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Yup

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

The Uk has so much in common with other European countries. Culture, history, and the fact that Paris is nearer London than Newcastle! Surely it would have been much better to stay with your peer group, perhaps as a disruptive member, than go chasing will-of-the-wisps in the “southern hemisphere”.
Brexit was utter madness. And now we have more confirmation of the craziness of it in this article by Peter Ramsey. The vote was for leave or stay – no mention of any constitutional changes was ever made. Just a straight yes or no. Did he have insider knowledge and expected as a Professor of Law to be writing this new constitution? That case he was very very badly misinformed!
Anyway – will any constitution revitalize Britain? Explain why?
I can see that this article is welcome red meat to a starved gang of Brexiters who lurk on Unherd. A strange bunch who, if we met, I would probably have much in common, except for my much more realistic picture of the UK’s now minor place in the world.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Brexit has also stumped you mate, if the woolliness of your article is any guide.
The Brexiter creed has always, ironically, been Napoleonic: “On s’engage et puis on voit”.
Could we please see detailed, workable proposals? Not the usual bumptious, holier-than-thou Breliever rhetoric.
After ploughing through the long litany of moans and sneers, I’m genuinely struggling to see where the writer’s practical change agenda is.
Occasionally, through the miasma of smugness, we get hints of something which approaches practicalities, e.g.:
“… Without new politics and a new electoral system …”
“… a process of investment in the nation’s people and in the infrastructure, both economic and political …”
“ … a new project of national sovereignty …”
Please note that I’m not disagreeing with you, for the simple reason that your article is so devoid of practical specifics that there is practically nothing to agree or disagree with.
 “ … a new project of national sovereignty …” you say? Sounds great!  But what on earth does that look like? What new politics? What new electoral system? Abandoning representative democracy and opting for a plebiscite democracy? Do tell.
“a process of investment in the nation’s people and in the infrastructure” – again, sounds promising, but can you flesh it out? Are you a closet commie?   
Could you please enlighten us? What – exactly – are you talking about?
You’ve had 7+ years to produce something workable.
A detailed reform agenda. Something concrete. Anything.
Am I just being naïve in expecting hard-edged practical proposals from a Brexiter? 
You seem perpetually un-moored from reality. It’s like engaging with a religious cult. Belief is all, and to perdition with the boring workaday details.

glyn harries
glyn harries
1 year ago

Yes.Lots of agreement but the political class are neo-liberal capitalist to their core. A true ‘project of national sovereignty’ has to be anti-capitalist to an extent.

glyn harries
glyn harries
1 year ago

Yes.Lots of agreement but the political class are neo-liberal capitalist to their core. A true ‘project of national sovereignty’ has to be anti-capitalist to an extent.

David Collier
David Collier
1 year ago

This issue of Trust has been raised by other commentators, including the Guardian journalist Rafael Behr in his recent book, Politics, A Survivor’s Guide, in his case from a very pro-EU perspective. It’s probably right, and trust is not a simple thing to develop, though one thing that we probably can say without contradiction, is that you aren’t going to gain trust by telling lies. Probably for those who are in favour of Britain being separate from the EU a start would have to be mea culpa, hands up and admit to those things you got wrong, that doesn’t mean admitting it’s all wrong, it means admitting that many of the promises turned out completely the reverse of the hoped-for sunlit upland. Bit hard to imagine many politicians doing that, though until they do, how are they going to make things better for those who feel left behind by all this? Making friends with nations worldwide is all very noble, can’t see how trust is going to develop among the population from that though.

Christian Moon
Christian Moon
1 year ago
Reply to  David Collier

It’s all lies, I tell yer, it’s all based on lies. They didn’t know what they were voting, for I tell ‘ee. It’s all lies.
What “lies” are you thinking of? Did the remain side tell any equivalent lies?

David Collier
David Collier
1 year ago
Reply to  Christian Moon

It’s not hard to find instances where enthusiasts for Brexit assured everyone that costs would come down and that business would be faced with much fewer regulations and red tape. This never stood up to honest scrutiny. Other issues like restriction of freedom of movement of labour were always inevitably going to have the opposite effect from what was being promised, and by tightening the labour supply inevitably lead to higher inflation. Anyone who challenged these obvious predictions was decried as a doom-monger. It’s quite possible that many of those assuring us that all would be glorious weren’t telling lies as such, they honestly believed it. What I’m saying is, if you got it wrong, own up! You aren’t going to garner trust by trying to maintain a fallacy.
Did the Remain side tell equivalent lies? That’s neither here nor there, they aren’t the ones whose trust is dented!

David Collier
David Collier
1 year ago
Reply to  Christian Moon

It’s not hard to find instances where enthusiasts for Brexit assured everyone that costs would come down and that business would be faced with much fewer regulations and red tape. This never stood up to honest scrutiny. Other issues like restriction of freedom of movement of labour were always inevitably going to have the opposite effect from what was being promised, and by tightening the labour supply inevitably lead to higher inflation. Anyone who challenged these obvious predictions was decried as a doom-monger. It’s quite possible that many of those assuring us that all would be glorious weren’t telling lies as such, they honestly believed it. What I’m saying is, if you got it wrong, own up! You aren’t going to garner trust by trying to maintain a fallacy.
Did the Remain side tell equivalent lies? That’s neither here nor there, they aren’t the ones whose trust is dented!

Christian Moon
Christian Moon
1 year ago
Reply to  David Collier

It’s all lies, I tell yer, it’s all based on lies. They didn’t know what they were voting, for I tell ‘ee. It’s all lies.
What “lies” are you thinking of? Did the remain side tell any equivalent lies?

David Collier
David Collier
1 year ago

This issue of Trust has been raised by other commentators, including the Guardian journalist Rafael Behr in his recent book, Politics, A Survivor’s Guide, in his case from a very pro-EU perspective. It’s probably right, and trust is not a simple thing to develop, though one thing that we probably can say without contradiction, is that you aren’t going to gain trust by telling lies. Probably for those who are in favour of Britain being separate from the EU a start would have to be mea culpa, hands up and admit to those things you got wrong, that doesn’t mean admitting it’s all wrong, it means admitting that many of the promises turned out completely the reverse of the hoped-for sunlit upland. Bit hard to imagine many politicians doing that, though until they do, how are they going to make things better for those who feel left behind by all this? Making friends with nations worldwide is all very noble, can’t see how trust is going to develop among the population from that though.

Clinton Hefford
Clinton Hefford
1 year ago

Hard to disagree with any of this but it does beg the question, why someone intelligent and knowledgeable enough to write this thought it was a good idea to go all in on sumat that was clearly never going to go anywhere good…

Clinton Hefford
Clinton Hefford
1 year ago

Hard to disagree with any of this but it does beg the question, why someone intelligent and knowledgeable enough to write this thought it was a good idea to go all in on sumat that was clearly never going to go anywhere good…

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

“Brexit remains a huge opportunity to break free from … globalism and Atlanticism, and … make friends … with the restive peoples of Europe (and) the rising powers of the Global South”.
Surely the first opportunity was best exercised within the EU, not outside it? ..and the problem with the Global South is that they finally figured out doing business with GB means getting a raw deal via neo colonialism.
The reality is that only far flung “Western” type countries like Oz, NZ and possibly Canada were likely to be enthusiastic about such trading opportunities happy in the knowledge that they, not GB were now in the driving seat and so could drive a hard bargain: which they did.

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

“Brexit remains a huge opportunity to break free from … globalism and Atlanticism, and … make friends … with the restive peoples of Europe (and) the rising powers of the Global South”.
Surely the first opportunity was best exercised within the EU, not outside it? ..and the problem with the Global South is that they finally figured out doing business with GB means getting a raw deal via neo colonialism.
The reality is that only far flung “Western” type countries like Oz, NZ and possibly Canada were likely to be enthusiastic about such trading opportunities happy in the knowledge that they, not GB were now in the driving seat and so could drive a hard bargain: which they did.

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
Mike MacCormack
Mike MacCormack
1 year ago

Very refreshing, but flawed by the author’s blindness to the irrefutable fact that Brexit was not some sort of democratic landslide at all: first past the post delivered victory to Brexit by a nose, no more. I know that’s how democracy works, at the moment anyway, but if you look at the famous pie-chart of how people actually voted, or didn’t, you see a different story. Leave – roughly a quarter of the population ( I know that’s not the same as the electorate but hear me out ). Remain – also about a quarter of the population. Didn’t bother to vote for whatever reason – also about a quarter of the population. Couldn’t vote due to age or disqualification – about a quarter of the population. The author’s attitude to first past the post is sound enough; how he can look at these figures – essentially two thirds of the potential electorate didn’t vote Leave – is a puzzle.

Paul Ten
Paul Ten
1 year ago

What percentage of the total electorate voted for us to go in 1973? What percentage of the total electorate voted for us to stay in in 1975? It’s a basic principle of democratic voting that non-votes don’t count, isn’t it? The majority of actual votes determines the outcome, as in 1975 and 2016.

I do think there is an argument that, as in the USA, a constitutional change of this kind should require a supermajority, perhaps of 60% or two-thirds. But if that were to happen, let’s have it applied consistently – to rejoining as well as leaving, to joining the Euro, to adopting future treaties with the EU. (Also, for that matter, to Scottish independence).

Paul Ten
Paul Ten
1 year ago

What percentage of the total electorate voted for us to go in 1973? What percentage of the total electorate voted for us to stay in in 1975? It’s a basic principle of democratic voting that non-votes don’t count, isn’t it? The majority of actual votes determines the outcome, as in 1975 and 2016.

I do think there is an argument that, as in the USA, a constitutional change of this kind should require a supermajority, perhaps of 60% or two-thirds. But if that were to happen, let’s have it applied consistently – to rejoining as well as leaving, to joining the Euro, to adopting future treaties with the EU. (Also, for that matter, to Scottish independence).

Mike MacCormack
Mike MacCormack
1 year ago

Very refreshing, but flawed by the author’s blindness to the irrefutable fact that Brexit was not some sort of democratic landslide at all: first past the post delivered victory to Brexit by a nose, no more. I know that’s how democracy works, at the moment anyway, but if you look at the famous pie-chart of how people actually voted, or didn’t, you see a different story. Leave – roughly a quarter of the population ( I know that’s not the same as the electorate but hear me out ). Remain – also about a quarter of the population. Didn’t bother to vote for whatever reason – also about a quarter of the population. Couldn’t vote due to age or disqualification – about a quarter of the population. The author’s attitude to first past the post is sound enough; how he can look at these figures – essentially two thirds of the potential electorate didn’t vote Leave – is a puzzle.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago

So, to sum up:
Author and Brexit voters were unhappy. They did not like where they were. They did not know exactly what was wrong or what they wanted instead, let alone what to do to get there. So they blew up an essential part of the political structure, in the hope that something better would somehow happen. Much like saying, really “We do not like our city. Let us blow up all the bridges and all the roads and see what happens“.

Surely the sensible thing would have been to work out what you wanted and what needed doing *first*, start doing it, and then left the EU when it was in the way of what you needed to do?

Rob N
Rob N
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Makes sense but my understanding is that EU membership prevented us, legally and practically, from doing what needed to be done. We could not start until we had, at least, initiated our exit.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

You also cannot start until you had decided what needed to be done and how you want to do it. Which still has not happened.

Christian Moon
Christian Moon
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

First ve plan, zen ve execute ze plan.
No wonder you’d feel more comfortable in the EU, or one of the hyper-bureaucratised European states,
It is universal that understanding of any complex system is contested except where dissent has been suppressed.

Christian Moon
Christian Moon
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

First ve plan, zen ve execute ze plan.
No wonder you’d feel more comfortable in the EU, or one of the hyper-bureaucratised European states,
It is universal that understanding of any complex system is contested except where dissent has been suppressed.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

Not really. There was lots of movement that we could have made within the EU in the direction of better. More re-industrialisation, a transition away from a low wage/high immigration economy. Better employment protections etc. The truth is that the UK was generally on the neo-liberal flank of the EU with its privatised utilities, and railways, emasculated unions, its stupid PFI deals and its underfunded public services. Had we exhausted our capacity to do the things the Brexiteers said they wanted to do within the EU then leaving would have been the logical next step. But you will notice that, whenever senior Brexiter politicians are asked to suggest a benefit, it is almost always something we could have done within the EU (“levelling up” the north of England) or something that no-one wants (further deregulating the CIty)

Their strategy was smash and then rebuild. But they were much more in love with the smash bit than the rebuilding.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

“from doing what needed to be done”
And that was, what, exactly? You’ve had 7+ years to think about it.
You surely must have a detailed, practical list of workable reform suggestions by this stage.
Post it up by return mate lol

Last edited 1 year ago by Frank McCusker
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Typically you miss the point. Did you even read the article?
Outside of the framework of the EU we can, if we wish, implement policies to suit ourselves. That we haven’t done so yet is of little long term consequence – It will happen when (and if!) we elect a competent government.
Nobody owes you a list – lol

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Typically you miss the point. Did you even read the article?
Outside of the framework of the EU we can, if we wish, implement policies to suit ourselves. That we haven’t done so yet is of little long term consequence – It will happen when (and if!) we elect a competent government.
Nobody owes you a list – lol

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

You also cannot start until you had decided what needed to be done and how you want to do it. Which still has not happened.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

Not really. There was lots of movement that we could have made within the EU in the direction of better. More re-industrialisation, a transition away from a low wage/high immigration economy. Better employment protections etc. The truth is that the UK was generally on the neo-liberal flank of the EU with its privatised utilities, and railways, emasculated unions, its stupid PFI deals and its underfunded public services. Had we exhausted our capacity to do the things the Brexiteers said they wanted to do within the EU then leaving would have been the logical next step. But you will notice that, whenever senior Brexiter politicians are asked to suggest a benefit, it is almost always something we could have done within the EU (“levelling up” the north of England) or something that no-one wants (further deregulating the CIty)

Their strategy was smash and then rebuild. But they were much more in love with the smash bit than the rebuilding.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

“from doing what needed to be done”
And that was, what, exactly? You’ve had 7+ years to think about it.
You surely must have a detailed, practical list of workable reform suggestions by this stage.
Post it up by return mate lol

Last edited 1 year ago by Frank McCusker
Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Those who voted to leave knew that an unending procession of laws they we were bound to obey were being cooked up behind closed doors in a bureacracy in Belgium and rubber stamped by Parliament. We wanted that to end and the power to enact laws we must obey returned to our democratically elected Parliament, That has happened.
I wonder how you think 17.4 million people would:collectively “work out what you wanted and what needed doing *first*, start doing it”. Perhaps you could explain the specific process by which that could have be achieved?
In what way was the EU membership an “essential part of the political structure”? That’s not the typical Europhile line. Usually we get the faux concerns about the trade from ideologues who are emotionally commited to “the Project”.

Last edited 1 year ago by Marcus Leach
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Well, EU membership was *the* way the UK handled trade, product regulation, most of foreign policy, as a smallish country in a big and hazardous world. As has been pointed out, the work of making trade agreements and standards was largely done through Brussels, to the point the the UK no longer had the people and the know-how to do it all in-house. Lots of new civil servants needed, now.

For the rest, what does the article say? The Britain no longer has any trust or accountability between people and politicians, that it has the wrong politicians, the wrong political system, that it has no useful solutions to current problems, that it has the wrong international alliances (or what else does “break[ing] free from the decaying structures of globalism and Atlanticism” mean?). Some of those points make sense, but Brexit did *nothing* to fix any of those problems, and the author admits he still has *no idea* of how to do any of this. All he has to offer is “Once we take this nation-building perspective, novel solutions to the familiar problems of our age will surely arise.” Sounds like Mr Micawber, does it not? “Something will turn up“?

Countries like Poland or Hungary that are unhappy with the way things are in the EU first decide what they want to do, and then start doing it. And then look at freeing themselves from EU control. Brexit, on the other hand, is a matter of people who have shown no understanding of national problems and have no ideas for how they want to change things, just breaking what we have on the unfounded hope that maybe someone will come up with something afterwards. The current situation had its problems, but maybe there *is* no better solution available. You certainly ought to start planning the new dwelling in some detail before you burn down the house you are currently living in.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Dear God. You are happy with a ‘foreign policy’ that saw the EU appease – full on knees – both Russia and China and ignore the risks of the unfolding blowback devastating their manufacturing and ecobomic base? Happy with an EU which waterboarded Greece and launched the entire Net Zero insanity (drive diesels!)? And as for trade…have you forgotten that we trade with other states like er..USA? Happy that those hapless 2nd raters who inhabit the fake parliaments in Europe are soon likely to be stacked with hardcore hard right politicians?? Bizarre!

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

1) EU foreign policy may not be brilliant, but it is a lot easier to rubbish others than to come up with something better yourself. If you want a British policy that subsidises manufacturing, breaks with China, stops agreeing with neighbouring countries, ignores climate problems, and subsidises Greeces national debt – why not start by making one, instead of moaning about the EU? Once you can show you have a plan that is likely to work better you might convince even me.
2) The Author talks about “Brexit remains a huge opportunity to break free from the decaying structures of globalism and Atlanticism, and instead to make friends not only with the restive peoples of Europe, but also with the rising powers of the Global South.” Clearly his line is to *break* with the US and cuddle up to China instead. It sounds like the only thing the two of you agree on is what not to do (stay in the EU), not about what you actually want to do instead.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Haha! It think it a tad unfair to insist I draw up a Total Post Brexit Manifesto today..AND that it must cohere with the author of this article!!!! You are right in one key regard. Brexit was not driven by a Political Party. It was a Peoples Revolution. Hence the Manifesto problem. But you surely are wrong to cling to the idea that the EU foreign policy is anything but a catastrophe. One further example. While we were training and arming Ukraine before the invasion, the poopy pant no army Nordstream lovin German t**** were banning us from flying over their borders!!! We have barely begun to enjoy our new freedoms to deliver for our electorate ((as we still exist in a EU cloned system and still abide by the EUs often risk averse suffocating laws)) Are not laws responding directly to the wishes of the British electorate preferable to those conjured up unseen in Brussels, as the Commission merges the contradictory foggy competing interests of Cyprus, Lithuania Hungary and 26 other states?? They are crushing enterprise & innovation with their precautionary principle. The point is; we are now free to avoid their muddles & mistakes and heavy handed Prussian Zollerverein ways – and so can refresh our democracy as well as our economy in a new age of AI! Sovereignty is the norm remember..

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Haha! It think it a tad unfair to insist I draw up a Total Post Brexit Manifesto today..AND that it must cohere with the author of this article!!!! You are right in one key regard. Brexit was not driven by a Political Party. It was a Peoples Revolution. Hence the Manifesto problem. But you surely are wrong to cling to the idea that the EU foreign policy is anything but a catastrophe. One further example. While we were training and arming Ukraine before the invasion, the poopy pant no army Nordstream lovin German t**** were banning us from flying over their borders!!! We have barely begun to enjoy our new freedoms to deliver for our electorate ((as we still exist in a EU cloned system and still abide by the EUs often risk averse suffocating laws)) Are not laws responding directly to the wishes of the British electorate preferable to those conjured up unseen in Brussels, as the Commission merges the contradictory foggy competing interests of Cyprus, Lithuania Hungary and 26 other states?? They are crushing enterprise & innovation with their precautionary principle. The point is; we are now free to avoid their muddles & mistakes and heavy handed Prussian Zollerverein ways – and so can refresh our democracy as well as our economy in a new age of AI! Sovereignty is the norm remember..

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

1) EU foreign policy may not be brilliant, but it is a lot easier to rubbish others than to come up with something better yourself. If you want a British policy that subsidises manufacturing, breaks with China, stops agreeing with neighbouring countries, ignores climate problems, and subsidises Greeces national debt – why not start by making one, instead of moaning about the EU? Once you can show you have a plan that is likely to work better you might convince even me.
2) The Author talks about “Brexit remains a huge opportunity to break free from the decaying structures of globalism and Atlanticism, and instead to make friends not only with the restive peoples of Europe, but also with the rising powers of the Global South.” Clearly his line is to *break* with the US and cuddle up to China instead. It sounds like the only thing the two of you agree on is what not to do (stay in the EU), not about what you actually want to do instead.

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Ah, you’ve gone right back to the faux Europhile concern about trade friction. Well the trivialities about labelling and cross border form filling don’t really seem to cut it as an explanation about what you meant by. your assertion that the EU was: an “essential part of the political structure”? The EU important to our foreign policy? Don’t be absurd; the EU is so divided by the individual national interests and international relationships of member states, that it is laughably impotent as a vehicle for foreign policy.
“For the rest, what does the article say? ”
What the article says is that, although Britain has escaped the institution, our politicians, Civil Service, and those who hold economic and social power in our society, remain chronically institutionalised. They remain committed to international, leftist, “progressive” agenda long ago captured bodies such as the EU, UN, WHO, etc. That is the source of distrust. If you think that would have been resolved by remaining in the EU, then: what can I say to such nonsense? No Brexit did not fix this problem, but it has made is rudely apparent that our government were ideological co-conspirators within the EU and not, as they asserted, fighting for British interests.
I asked you about the specific process by which Britain would “work out what you wanted and what needed doing *first*, start doing it”. Instead you resort to silly, inarticulate, flim flam about Poland and Hungary. These countries haven’t decided what to do prior to a vote on leaving the EU, The are fighting for the autonomy of democratically elected national governement against an undemocratic, comprehensively failed bureacracy in Belgium that is using its control of the purse strings to impose its will on the democratically elected governments of those countries.

Last edited 1 year ago by Marcus Leach
Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Dear God. You are happy with a ‘foreign policy’ that saw the EU appease – full on knees – both Russia and China and ignore the risks of the unfolding blowback devastating their manufacturing and ecobomic base? Happy with an EU which waterboarded Greece and launched the entire Net Zero insanity (drive diesels!)? And as for trade…have you forgotten that we trade with other states like er..USA? Happy that those hapless 2nd raters who inhabit the fake parliaments in Europe are soon likely to be stacked with hardcore hard right politicians?? Bizarre!

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Ah, you’ve gone right back to the faux Europhile concern about trade friction. Well the trivialities about labelling and cross border form filling don’t really seem to cut it as an explanation about what you meant by. your assertion that the EU was: an “essential part of the political structure”? The EU important to our foreign policy? Don’t be absurd; the EU is so divided by the individual national interests and international relationships of member states, that it is laughably impotent as a vehicle for foreign policy.
“For the rest, what does the article say? ”
What the article says is that, although Britain has escaped the institution, our politicians, Civil Service, and those who hold economic and social power in our society, remain chronically institutionalised. They remain committed to international, leftist, “progressive” agenda long ago captured bodies such as the EU, UN, WHO, etc. That is the source of distrust. If you think that would have been resolved by remaining in the EU, then: what can I say to such nonsense? No Brexit did not fix this problem, but it has made is rudely apparent that our government were ideological co-conspirators within the EU and not, as they asserted, fighting for British interests.
I asked you about the specific process by which Britain would “work out what you wanted and what needed doing *first*, start doing it”. Instead you resort to silly, inarticulate, flim flam about Poland and Hungary. These countries haven’t decided what to do prior to a vote on leaving the EU, The are fighting for the autonomy of democratically elected national governement against an undemocratic, comprehensively failed bureacracy in Belgium that is using its control of the purse strings to impose its will on the democratically elected governments of those countries.

Last edited 1 year ago by Marcus Leach
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Well, EU membership was *the* way the UK handled trade, product regulation, most of foreign policy, as a smallish country in a big and hazardous world. As has been pointed out, the work of making trade agreements and standards was largely done through Brussels, to the point the the UK no longer had the people and the know-how to do it all in-house. Lots of new civil servants needed, now.

For the rest, what does the article say? The Britain no longer has any trust or accountability between people and politicians, that it has the wrong politicians, the wrong political system, that it has no useful solutions to current problems, that it has the wrong international alliances (or what else does “break[ing] free from the decaying structures of globalism and Atlanticism” mean?). Some of those points make sense, but Brexit did *nothing* to fix any of those problems, and the author admits he still has *no idea* of how to do any of this. All he has to offer is “Once we take this nation-building perspective, novel solutions to the familiar problems of our age will surely arise.” Sounds like Mr Micawber, does it not? “Something will turn up“?

Countries like Poland or Hungary that are unhappy with the way things are in the EU first decide what they want to do, and then start doing it. And then look at freeing themselves from EU control. Brexit, on the other hand, is a matter of people who have shown no understanding of national problems and have no ideas for how they want to change things, just breaking what we have on the unfounded hope that maybe someone will come up with something afterwards. The current situation had its problems, but maybe there *is* no better solution available. You certainly ought to start planning the new dwelling in some detail before you burn down the house you are currently living in.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
Rob N
Rob N
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Makes sense but my understanding is that EU membership prevented us, legally and practically, from doing what needed to be done. We could not start until we had, at least, initiated our exit.

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Those who voted to leave knew that an unending procession of laws they we were bound to obey were being cooked up behind closed doors in a bureacracy in Belgium and rubber stamped by Parliament. We wanted that to end and the power to enact laws we must obey returned to our democratically elected Parliament, That has happened.
I wonder how you think 17.4 million people would:collectively “work out what you wanted and what needed doing *first*, start doing it”. Perhaps you could explain the specific process by which that could have be achieved?
In what way was the EU membership an “essential part of the political structure”? That’s not the typical Europhile line. Usually we get the faux concerns about the trade from ideologues who are emotionally commited to “the Project”.

Last edited 1 year ago by Marcus Leach
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago

So, to sum up:
Author and Brexit voters were unhappy. They did not like where they were. They did not know exactly what was wrong or what they wanted instead, let alone what to do to get there. So they blew up an essential part of the political structure, in the hope that something better would somehow happen. Much like saying, really “We do not like our city. Let us blow up all the bridges and all the roads and see what happens“.

Surely the sensible thing would have been to work out what you wanted and what needed doing *first*, start doing it, and then left the EU when it was in the way of what you needed to do?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

We in Ireland has a similar conundrum when we exited from the BE in 1922.. it was all well and good to blame England for everything wrong up to that point (with much more justification!) but now that we had our independence who could we blame? Of course, just like with Brexit we complained that GB continued to cause us all sorts of problems via neocolonialism (again with much more justification, especially with its cheap food policy).
And that continued for 50 years or so until we joined the EU and got out from under the GB yoke; and with generous structural funds we finally emerged as a wealthy country (by world standards).. So maybe GB will have to undergo many years of soul searching to similarly find its feet on the world stage.
But what block will it join to achieve that?

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The UK was part of a block for a mere forty years. It was its own country for nearly one thousand. I am comfortable in my own skin – Why do I need to find another block to hide behind ?

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

ALL countries see a need to join a bloc these days.. hence BRIC++ with 20 more nations in the queue.. many are as big as the UK, a few are far larger.. The notion of all or nothing has to be debunked.. total sovereignty means no deals with anyone.. total subjection is not the only other option.
GB was never totally subject to the EU or anything remotely close it.
Alignment = compromise = trade = security.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

ALL countries see a need to join a bloc these days.. hence BRIC++ with 20 more nations in the queue.. many are as big as the UK, a few are far larger.. The notion of all or nothing has to be debunked.. total sovereignty means no deals with anyone.. total subjection is not the only other option.
GB was never totally subject to the EU or anything remotely close it.
Alignment = compromise = trade = security.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The UK was part of a block for a mere forty years. It was its own country for nearly one thousand. I am comfortable in my own skin – Why do I need to find another block to hide behind ?

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

We in Ireland has a similar conundrum when we exited from the BE in 1922.. it was all well and good to blame England for everything wrong up to that point (with much more justification!) but now that we had our independence who could we blame? Of course, just like with Brexit we complained that GB continued to cause us all sorts of problems via neocolonialism (again with much more justification, especially with its cheap food policy).
And that continued for 50 years or so until we joined the EU and got out from under the GB yoke; and with generous structural funds we finally emerged as a wealthy country (by world standards).. So maybe GB will have to undergo many years of soul searching to similarly find its feet on the world stage.
But what block will it join to achieve that?

John Stevens
John Stevens
1 year ago

A delusional piece. No sane person, even an academic, chooses to blow up his house without the slightest considered idea about what should be the structure, to replace it, and without the resources to execute the work. And in as much as some idea on these glaring deficiencies is suggested, in a desire to embrace ‘the rising powers of the Global South” it demonstrates a shocking loss of faith it the competitive capacities of our own civilisation, which bodes ill both for our future prosperity and perhaps even our future freedom.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Stevens
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  John Stevens

It stikes me as an intelligent and considered piece from a man who has clearly thought the matter though.
Your response is just an incoherent rant.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  John Stevens

It stikes me as an intelligent and considered piece from a man who has clearly thought the matter though.
Your response is just an incoherent rant.

John Stevens
John Stevens
1 year ago

A delusional piece. No sane person, even an academic, chooses to blow up his house without the slightest considered idea about what should be the structure, to replace it, and without the resources to execute the work. And in as much as some idea on these glaring deficiencies is suggested, in a desire to embrace ‘the rising powers of the Global South” it demonstrates a shocking loss of faith it the competitive capacities of our own civilisation, which bodes ill both for our future prosperity and perhaps even our future freedom.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Stevens
Charles Jenkin
Charles Jenkin
1 year ago

Peter says in para 5, “Another and bigger problem for me was that while I knew what I had voted against the day before, I was a lot less sure about what I had voted for.”
I am grateful for Peter’s honesty, but herein lies the fundamental dysfunction of the Brexit referendum. The majority voted against something they did not like, out of only hazy ideas of how being an independent nation state again could make things better. Moreover, many of those hazy ideas were conflicting and mutually exclusive. It is therefore not surprising that political, economic and societal chaos and disappointment has ensued.
Peter expresses only a rather vague hope that a new direction can eventually be found for the UK outside the EU, while admitting how difficult and challenging the process is. Critically, he actually offers no real vision himself, and merely falls back on lamenting that our leaders are not better.
The hard truth is that Brexit was a reckless mistake, made by a majority who hadn’t thought through what they really wanted, and how this could be achieved in the real world. 7 years on, not only is it hard to see any material benefits of Brexit, but it continues hard to see what future benefits can realistically now be expected.

John Stevens
John Stevens
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Jenkin

Correct.

Paul Ten
Paul Ten
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Jenkin

Wrong. This is the old, condescending, leavers-are-too-thick-to-know-what-they-were-doing-whereas-remainers-are-superior-beings argument. Being a nation-state again is its own benefit. There might well have been 17.4 million ‘visions’ of what people wanted for a post-Brexit future, some of them clear and thought-through, some hazy and poorly formed. (The same principle applies when we vote in elections.) Those visions did not form part of the vote, because they are all valid. Nation states can adopt any range of policies and alliances, and they can change them as they change their governments. Where we go as a country is now down to our own politics. But at least it’s ours.

Christian Moon
Christian Moon
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Jenkin

If I want to go out and change policy (or the politician responsible) I can now do that in the UK, maybe form a party first.
In the EU I would have to get the country out of the EU first, before I started on the substance of the policy change.
We have now taken the latter step, and this is good.

John Stevens
John Stevens
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Jenkin

Correct.

Paul Ten
Paul Ten
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Jenkin

Wrong. This is the old, condescending, leavers-are-too-thick-to-know-what-they-were-doing-whereas-remainers-are-superior-beings argument. Being a nation-state again is its own benefit. There might well have been 17.4 million ‘visions’ of what people wanted for a post-Brexit future, some of them clear and thought-through, some hazy and poorly formed. (The same principle applies when we vote in elections.) Those visions did not form part of the vote, because they are all valid. Nation states can adopt any range of policies and alliances, and they can change them as they change their governments. Where we go as a country is now down to our own politics. But at least it’s ours.

Christian Moon
Christian Moon
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Jenkin

If I want to go out and change policy (or the politician responsible) I can now do that in the UK, maybe form a party first.
In the EU I would have to get the country out of the EU first, before I started on the substance of the policy change.
We have now taken the latter step, and this is good.

Charles Jenkin
Charles Jenkin
1 year ago

Peter says in para 5, “Another and bigger problem for me was that while I knew what I had voted against the day before, I was a lot less sure about what I had voted for.”
I am grateful for Peter’s honesty, but herein lies the fundamental dysfunction of the Brexit referendum. The majority voted against something they did not like, out of only hazy ideas of how being an independent nation state again could make things better. Moreover, many of those hazy ideas were conflicting and mutually exclusive. It is therefore not surprising that political, economic and societal chaos and disappointment has ensued.
Peter expresses only a rather vague hope that a new direction can eventually be found for the UK outside the EU, while admitting how difficult and challenging the process is. Critically, he actually offers no real vision himself, and merely falls back on lamenting that our leaders are not better.
The hard truth is that Brexit was a reckless mistake, made by a majority who hadn’t thought through what they really wanted, and how this could be achieved in the real world. 7 years on, not only is it hard to see any material benefits of Brexit, but it continues hard to see what future benefits can realistically now be expected.

Nicholas Taylor
Nicholas Taylor
1 year ago

Today, after only seven years, Leave would lose, and it would not win in the future, because the Leave voters, who are skewed to older ages, are steadily dying off. Revenge on the young and the living from the grave.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nicholas Taylor
Nicholas Taylor
Nicholas Taylor
1 year ago

Today, after only seven years, Leave would lose, and it would not win in the future, because the Leave voters, who are skewed to older ages, are steadily dying off. Revenge on the young and the living from the grave.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nicholas Taylor
Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago

This article simply replaces one set of freemarket based utopian abstract promises with another set of vague nationalist ones. Like failed Communist states forever trying to explain the lack of successful instances of communism working in practice, the Brexiteers refrain is “if only we had the real Brexit” – a state which, like waiting for Godot, is forever deferred, just over the horizon. If only we could export slogans, Britain would be wealthy again.

Meanwhile in other news, GDP per capita in Ireland is now DOUBLE that of the UK. At current rates of growth not long before Poland also overtakes Brexit Britain.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aidan Anabetting
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

“Meanwhile in other news, GDP per capita in Ireland is now DOUBLE that of the UK”
Everyone who has bothered to check knows that this is a fake statistic based on the accounting trickery adopted by the multinational companies that use Ireland as a headquarters base, whilst funnelling wealth elsewhere.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Try visiting the place. Go into a supermarket. The difference is palpable.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

I’m sure that the bourgeois liberal elite in Dublin is doing well. Such people always prosper, but they are not a measure of the prosperity of the nation as a whole

Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Speaks a true Leninist. None like to “epater les bourgeois” more than other members of the bourgeoisie.
The thing is that in a knowledge economy, the majority of the population is now becoming middle class. Like it or not, innovation / tech sectors create more value than metal bashing which can’t compete with emerging economies. High added value and productivity comes from intellectual assets which keep you ahead of the pack.
The healthy wages paid to those that you refer to disdainfully as “such people” are then spent on local goods and services and end up in the pockets of skilled trades people. Brexiters excel at destroying and rubbishing everything but I honestly have no idea idea what they would put in it’s place. House price inflation, heritage gift shops and charity shops alone wont cut it, even in the shires. A protectionist while globalist, neo-Marxist while conservative Singapore doesn’t seem coherent to me.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aidan Anabetting
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

“Speaks a true Leninist.”
I doubt that you have read a word that Lenin wrote. He had some good ideas about how to deal with infantile bourgeois remainers.

Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I recall that the landed classes were not exempt from the Gulags. Ps I actually do enjoy your dry commentary and wish you well.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I recall that the landed classes were not exempt from the Gulags. Ps I actually do enjoy your dry commentary and wish you well.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aidan Anabetting
Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago

What utter nonsense! It was the EU Blairites who had wrought destruction upon our system of governance – creating a vast unproductive sickly public sector and all the fancy adds ons like Supreme Court, devolution, Human Rights and Equality laws, the permanent Quangocracy etc – all designed to neuter the power of national executives and parliaments. This Blob now gorges on the private sector it despises and is a monstrously high tax junkie. The house price inflation bubble you mention is another Blair/EU pre Brex horror which was fed by the unplanned uncounted army of 5/6 million Europeans taking advantage of free movement to a State which stopped building houses – another nasty junkie like addiction which coined Tony £30m. Brexit had been alive for just days before Covid arrived and the Lockdown panic and madness swamped the panicked State. I do often wonder why Remainers & the Blob were almost universally enthused about the casual tyranny of lockdown. It so patently was going to cripple the new Brexit State. Did this cross your mind I wonder? You accuse Brexiteers of destroying and rubbishing everything’ ..but polls show we were fiercely opposed to Johnson’s greatest Folly. If your Remania saw you bang pots for the now broken NHS and shriek at any attempt to challenge the groupthink of state Lockers over those two years, History – and especially the children so casually betrayed – will come for you..and it will not be kind.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

“Speaks a true Leninist.”
I doubt that you have read a word that Lenin wrote. He had some good ideas about how to deal with infantile bourgeois remainers.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago

What utter nonsense! It was the EU Blairites who had wrought destruction upon our system of governance – creating a vast unproductive sickly public sector and all the fancy adds ons like Supreme Court, devolution, Human Rights and Equality laws, the permanent Quangocracy etc – all designed to neuter the power of national executives and parliaments. This Blob now gorges on the private sector it despises and is a monstrously high tax junkie. The house price inflation bubble you mention is another Blair/EU pre Brex horror which was fed by the unplanned uncounted army of 5/6 million Europeans taking advantage of free movement to a State which stopped building houses – another nasty junkie like addiction which coined Tony £30m. Brexit had been alive for just days before Covid arrived and the Lockdown panic and madness swamped the panicked State. I do often wonder why Remainers & the Blob were almost universally enthused about the casual tyranny of lockdown. It so patently was going to cripple the new Brexit State. Did this cross your mind I wonder? You accuse Brexiteers of destroying and rubbishing everything’ ..but polls show we were fiercely opposed to Johnson’s greatest Folly. If your Remania saw you bang pots for the now broken NHS and shriek at any attempt to challenge the groupthink of state Lockers over those two years, History – and especially the children so casually betrayed – will come for you..and it will not be kind.

Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Speaks a true Leninist. None like to “epater les bourgeois” more than other members of the bourgeoisie.
The thing is that in a knowledge economy, the majority of the population is now becoming middle class. Like it or not, innovation / tech sectors create more value than metal bashing which can’t compete with emerging economies. High added value and productivity comes from intellectual assets which keep you ahead of the pack.
The healthy wages paid to those that you refer to disdainfully as “such people” are then spent on local goods and services and end up in the pockets of skilled trades people. Brexiters excel at destroying and rubbishing everything but I honestly have no idea idea what they would put in it’s place. House price inflation, heritage gift shops and charity shops alone wont cut it, even in the shires. A protectionist while globalist, neo-Marxist while conservative Singapore doesn’t seem coherent to me.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aidan Anabetting
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

I’m sure that the bourgeois liberal elite in Dublin is doing well. Such people always prosper, but they are not a measure of the prosperity of the nation as a whole

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Yes, quite true.. IT Multinationals make huge profits in Ireland, their European HQ while making correspondingly low profits in other EU states which have higher corporation tax rates.. such income is taxed in Ireland (not all by any means; much is exempt) and the profits are then repatriated to the US, giving a very misleading GDP figure..
I hate agreeing with you but you’re correct!

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Embrace the truth, Liam, even when it hurts.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Embrace the truth, Liam, even when it hurts.

Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Try visiting the place. Go into a supermarket. The difference is palpable.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Yes, quite true.. IT Multinationals make huge profits in Ireland, their European HQ while making correspondingly low profits in other EU states which have higher corporation tax rates.. such income is taxed in Ireland (not all by any means; much is exempt) and the profits are then repatriated to the US, giving a very misleading GDP figure..
I hate agreeing with you but you’re correct!

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

“Meanwhile in other news, GDP per capita in Ireland is now DOUBLE that of the UK”
Everyone who has bothered to check knows that this is a fake statistic based on the accounting trickery adopted by the multinational companies that use Ireland as a headquarters base, whilst funnelling wealth elsewhere.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago

This article simply replaces one set of freemarket based utopian abstract promises with another set of vague nationalist ones. Like failed Communist states forever trying to explain the lack of successful instances of communism working in practice, the Brexiteers refrain is “if only we had the real Brexit” – a state which, like waiting for Godot, is forever deferred, just over the horizon. If only we could export slogans, Britain would be wealthy again.

Meanwhile in other news, GDP per capita in Ireland is now DOUBLE that of the UK. At current rates of growth not long before Poland also overtakes Brexit Britain.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aidan Anabetting
j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Largely vacuous and devoid of practical policies to address the Author’s concerns. So come on what’s actually proposed as part of this politics of national sovereignty beyond yet more vague slogans and phrases? Stopping there is lazy and self justifying.
One senses the Author’s hasn’t clicked the challenge also isn’t selling this to another group of Academics, or for that matter the Brexiteers desperate for some confirmation this was the correct course. What are you selling the public that actually amounts to a more than a hill of beans?
It’s the dishonesty and failure to properly plan behind the project that has wrecked it and this Article is no more honest than all the rest.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Erm, perhaps acting on the priorities of the British people might be a start? For example: ending mass immigration, or at least convincingly working to do so? 600,000 net per annum, I would remind you. Clearly, and some people manage to tell this with a straight face, this has absolutely nothing to do with the current housing crisis.

It’s extraordinary how left-liberal types go out of their way to avoid even mentioning this; it’s the single most obvious disconnect between voters and the mainstream political parties. Of course the Tories are the most hypocritical and divided on this issue.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Fine, but outline the Policy mechanism and what you’ll do differently for the employers and Universities that needed much of this. Engage fully with the challenge and we can get somewhere.
It’s this continual sloganeering without owning the implications and necessity to then get on the level with the public about what we’ll have to then forgo and manage, even if just for a while, that is at the root of Brexit failure.
If you hadn’t noticed – spouting a slogan and then assuming it drops into place, doesn’t deliver.
(I know what’s coming – it’s not me/us, it’s some blob blocking us. Like a child)

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Good point. But why quote the Bet figure. The number that matters is the number coming in every year, every single one of whom is looking for a place to stay. It is 1.2 million!!! And has been 600-700,000 incoming for years. That is mass migration.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Fine, but outline the Policy mechanism and what you’ll do differently for the employers and Universities that needed much of this. Engage fully with the challenge and we can get somewhere.
It’s this continual sloganeering without owning the implications and necessity to then get on the level with the public about what we’ll have to then forgo and manage, even if just for a while, that is at the root of Brexit failure.
If you hadn’t noticed – spouting a slogan and then assuming it drops into place, doesn’t deliver.
(I know what’s coming – it’s not me/us, it’s some blob blocking us. Like a child)

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Good point. But why quote the Bet figure. The number that matters is the number coming in every year, every single one of whom is looking for a place to stay. It is 1.2 million!!! And has been 600-700,000 incoming for years. That is mass migration.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

A repeat yet again of 1914 & 1939.
Third time lucky?

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

The “failure to plan” for a Leave outcome was a direct result of a policy decision by the useless Cameron to not do so. This fact seems to perfectly underpin the whole article.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
Steve Brown
Steve Brown
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Cameron was a useless but he was a remainer. Brexiteers had 25 years to figure out how their dream would be put into practice but all they did was bleat about how the EU was terrible. If the hardline Brexiteers had outlined what they really wanted to do (Singapore on Thames etc.) they would have lost. I think they have a good case but it could never have gained wide support, let alone a majority. Surely it is now apparent that in the total absence of a Brexit plan we should have worked to create a new, more distant, relationship within a deeply flawed EU, probably with enthusiastic support from the Nordic countries. Now we will have to achieve the same end point from outside the EU which will take a generation or more and absorb vast political and economic resources. We will be much poorer and our democracy will have been weakened, as people realise they were conned.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Brown

Yep painfully all true. We sold our leverage too cheaply not appreciating that until isolated and outside the camp.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Brown

Yep painfully all true. We sold our leverage too cheaply not appreciating that until isolated and outside the camp.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Add to that, the failure to plan for a “different” pandemic during his time in office, and it’s becoming increasingly clear he has a lot to answer for.

Steve Brown
Steve Brown
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Cameron was a useless but he was a remainer. Brexiteers had 25 years to figure out how their dream would be put into practice but all they did was bleat about how the EU was terrible. If the hardline Brexiteers had outlined what they really wanted to do (Singapore on Thames etc.) they would have lost. I think they have a good case but it could never have gained wide support, let alone a majority. Surely it is now apparent that in the total absence of a Brexit plan we should have worked to create a new, more distant, relationship within a deeply flawed EU, probably with enthusiastic support from the Nordic countries. Now we will have to achieve the same end point from outside the EU which will take a generation or more and absorb vast political and economic resources. We will be much poorer and our democracy will have been weakened, as people realise they were conned.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Add to that, the failure to plan for a “different” pandemic during his time in office, and it’s becoming increasingly clear he has a lot to answer for.

Andrew Raiment
Andrew Raiment
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Who knows, if it hadn’t been for the prior 25 years of technocratic incompetence Brexit probably wouldn’t have happened.

The problems come back to Cameron who dishonestly offered a vote, had nothing planned for a No result and ran away when it arrived.

It’s the old joke about a tourist being lost and asking directions from a local, who says “I know where you need to go but I wouldn’t start from here”.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Raiment
j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Raiment

That’s a new one – blame Cameron for not preparing rather than the chumps who campaigned for it. Anything to ensure those who promulgated absolved of responsibility.
Do folks not appreciate how pathetic this looks?

Andrew Raiment
Andrew Raiment
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

You go on about honesty while posting the most fallacious nonsense imaginable. I can only assume you and “John Murray” are sock puppet accounts.

Andrew Raiment
Andrew Raiment
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I’ll make it simple for you. Cameron was the Prime Minister, he called for a referendum and campaigned to remain (perhaps hoping this would secure a Yes vote). He was involved in the negotiations to supposedly get Britain a better ‘deal’, being the leader of the country, it would have been negligent not to prepare for an opposite outcome.

Cameron was duplicitous throughout the whole affair, as was Johnson and Gove etc but it was Cameron who was PM at the time.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Raiment
j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Raiment

Hey I’m no fan of Cameron. Concur he tee’d the whole thing up without due care. But he resigned next day and since when Brexit supporters been in charge. One assumes they had a plan ready to go as they’d been asking for this for years? Or maybe not…

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

And you know perfectly well – as we all do – that Cameron promised to follow through and deliver on whatever the people decided.
He had no authority to resign the day after the vote.
You also know perfectly well the Theresa May was never a “Brexit supporter”. You’ll be telling us she wasn’t “in charge” next. But on this occasion, we might believe you !

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Yes May had kept her views on Brexit fairly quiet pre referendum. But she was the author of the Lancaster statement which funnelled us down a hard Brexit cul de sac. Hardly some ardent Remainer strategic direction was it. Not a moment’s thought to a softer version of Leave.
The trouble is you keep searching for someone to blame rather then the concept itself and it’s key protagonists. I understand this will continue as a massive deflection operation all many have left.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Yes May had kept her views on Brexit fairly quiet pre referendum. But she was the author of the Lancaster statement which funnelled us down a hard Brexit cul de sac. Hardly some ardent Remainer strategic direction was it. Not a moment’s thought to a softer version of Leave.
The trouble is you keep searching for someone to blame rather then the concept itself and it’s key protagonists. I understand this will continue as a massive deflection operation all many have left.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

And you know perfectly well – as we all do – that Cameron promised to follow through and deliver on whatever the people decided.
He had no authority to resign the day after the vote.
You also know perfectly well the Theresa May was never a “Brexit supporter”. You’ll be telling us she wasn’t “in charge” next. But on this occasion, we might believe you !

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Raiment

Hey I’m no fan of Cameron. Concur he tee’d the whole thing up without due care. But he resigned next day and since when Brexit supporters been in charge. One assumes they had a plan ready to go as they’d been asking for this for years? Or maybe not…

Andrew Raiment
Andrew Raiment
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

You go on about honesty while posting the most fallacious nonsense imaginable. I can only assume you and “John Murray” are sock puppet accounts.

Andrew Raiment
Andrew Raiment
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I’ll make it simple for you. Cameron was the Prime Minister, he called for a referendum and campaigned to remain (perhaps hoping this would secure a Yes vote). He was involved in the negotiations to supposedly get Britain a better ‘deal’, being the leader of the country, it would have been negligent not to prepare for an opposite outcome.

Cameron was duplicitous throughout the whole affair, as was Johnson and Gove etc but it was Cameron who was PM at the time.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Raiment
j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Raiment

That’s a new one – blame Cameron for not preparing rather than the chumps who campaigned for it. Anything to ensure those who promulgated absolved of responsibility.
Do folks not appreciate how pathetic this looks?

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

“…beyond yet more vague slogans and phrases?”
Look in the mirror. 

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

A lot of people know what needs to be done. The problem is we have a government that is loathe to do anything, and indeed, without the EU to steer them are utterly rudderless.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Such as? Just a couple of practical thought through Policies.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Such as? Just a couple of practical thought through Policies.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

The reason that you receive so many downvotes is that you use this forum as an opportunity to shill for the Labour Party, and little else. That is not what Unherd is about. There are more appropriate sites that you can visit, where you contribution would be welcome.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Actually the more downvotes the better PR. Means folks who wouldn’t usually want to listen/read to an alternative view just have. Success.
But also I think you should recognise that being exposed to an alternative, much as I am in some Unherd articles quite deliberately, is healthy. If nothing else it’ll help you think a tad longer and harder about some things. Folks rarely change their entire viewpoint instantly though and that’s normal.
As regards Lab party – you jump a bit quick to labelling everything about them. I do appreciate that is a comfort blanket to help you dismiss the point.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

“Actually the more downvotes the better PR. Means folks who wouldn’t usually want to listen/read to an alternative view just have. Success.”
And rejected it.
You don’t offer a genuine alternative view – Just the boilerplate blairite “liberalism” that we have heard a thousand times before.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Actually I was quite touched by your concern for me about the number of downvotes I can attract. Appreciated.
I’ll be fine though, but thanks

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Actually I was quite touched by your concern for me about the number of downvotes I can attract. Appreciated.
I’ll be fine though, but thanks

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

“Actually the more downvotes the better PR. Means folks who wouldn’t usually want to listen/read to an alternative view just have. Success.”
And rejected it.
You don’t offer a genuine alternative view – Just the boilerplate blairite “liberalism” that we have heard a thousand times before.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Actually the more downvotes the better PR. Means folks who wouldn’t usually want to listen/read to an alternative view just have. Success.
But also I think you should recognise that being exposed to an alternative, much as I am in some Unherd articles quite deliberately, is healthy. If nothing else it’ll help you think a tad longer and harder about some things. Folks rarely change their entire viewpoint instantly though and that’s normal.
As regards Lab party – you jump a bit quick to labelling everything about them. I do appreciate that is a comfort blanket to help you dismiss the point.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I thought he pulled it together towards the end with his call for electoral reform. It’s the first crucial step. Votes cast need to be reflected in the numbers of parliamentary seats. There must be a way to make that work. People have given up voting and that’s a serious problem in need of a fix. Even, yes EVEN if that means the likes of Farage end up in parliament.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Yes the one glimmer of a practical policy, but pretty limited wasn’t it. Is he saying we should now junk ‘1st past post’ and go PR? Is he saying we need much more regional devolution and with what powers? HoLs reform etc. Ironically of course the election of MEPs had been via PR.
One can engage if a specific policy and approach conveyed. Just slogans is a variant on what we’ve had last 7yrs and not got anyone v far. I actually agree we need to do some radical stuff on the UK democratic deficit. So I’d go with PR, much more devolution and change how we elect/appt to HoL. I’d also force Parliament to sit for 6mths of the year elsewhere to London.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Yes the one glimmer of a practical policy, but pretty limited wasn’t it. Is he saying we should now junk ‘1st past post’ and go PR? Is he saying we need much more regional devolution and with what powers? HoLs reform etc. Ironically of course the election of MEPs had been via PR.
One can engage if a specific policy and approach conveyed. Just slogans is a variant on what we’ve had last 7yrs and not got anyone v far. I actually agree we need to do some radical stuff on the UK democratic deficit. So I’d go with PR, much more devolution and change how we elect/appt to HoL. I’d also force Parliament to sit for 6mths of the year elsewhere to London.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Erm, perhaps acting on the priorities of the British people might be a start? For example: ending mass immigration, or at least convincingly working to do so? 600,000 net per annum, I would remind you. Clearly, and some people manage to tell this with a straight face, this has absolutely nothing to do with the current housing crisis.

It’s extraordinary how left-liberal types go out of their way to avoid even mentioning this; it’s the single most obvious disconnect between voters and the mainstream political parties. Of course the Tories are the most hypocritical and divided on this issue.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

A repeat yet again of 1914 & 1939.
Third time lucky?

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

The “failure to plan” for a Leave outcome was a direct result of a policy decision by the useless Cameron to not do so. This fact seems to perfectly underpin the whole article.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
Andrew Raiment
Andrew Raiment
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Who knows, if it hadn’t been for the prior 25 years of technocratic incompetence Brexit probably wouldn’t have happened.

The problems come back to Cameron who dishonestly offered a vote, had nothing planned for a No result and ran away when it arrived.

It’s the old joke about a tourist being lost and asking directions from a local, who says “I know where you need to go but I wouldn’t start from here”.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Raiment
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

“…beyond yet more vague slogans and phrases?”
Look in the mirror. 

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

A lot of people know what needs to be done. The problem is we have a government that is loathe to do anything, and indeed, without the EU to steer them are utterly rudderless.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

The reason that you receive so many downvotes is that you use this forum as an opportunity to shill for the Labour Party, and little else. That is not what Unherd is about. There are more appropriate sites that you can visit, where you contribution would be welcome.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I thought he pulled it together towards the end with his call for electoral reform. It’s the first crucial step. Votes cast need to be reflected in the numbers of parliamentary seats. There must be a way to make that work. People have given up voting and that’s a serious problem in need of a fix. Even, yes EVEN if that means the likes of Farage end up in parliament.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Largely vacuous and devoid of practical policies to address the Author’s concerns. So come on what’s actually proposed as part of this politics of national sovereignty beyond yet more vague slogans and phrases? Stopping there is lazy and self justifying.
One senses the Author’s hasn’t clicked the challenge also isn’t selling this to another group of Academics, or for that matter the Brexiteers desperate for some confirmation this was the correct course. What are you selling the public that actually amounts to a more than a hill of beans?
It’s the dishonesty and failure to properly plan behind the project that has wrecked it and this Article is no more honest than all the rest.