All I can say is that this mess is up to women to fix. You have been ferocious towards any men who transgress feminist rules for the last 40 years – I find it amazing that you are putting up with this BS. If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants” I could possibly be put out of my job. However if I put on lipstick and a wig and leered at women trying to change at the local swimming pool – they would be kicked out for complaining about it.
“If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants”
To be honest, it would never have occurred to me to say that to anyone, unless we were already on pretty intimate terms.
Nor would I, but does that mean that women cannot compliment you in a similar vein? Geez, how sad that we have become so PC that a genuine compliment is seen as sexual harassment or a blatant come-on.
In the past 10-15 years commenting on a woman’s appearance in the workplace has become a major ‘No! No!’ – with the interpretation of male lewdness and patriarchal arrogance driving such outrageous behaviour. Pay woman colleagues or in public compliments at peril of your continued employment!
In the past 10-15 years commenting on a woman’s appearance in the workplace has become a major ‘No! No!’ – with the interpretation of male lewdness and patriarchal arrogance driving such outrageous behaviour. Pay woman colleagues or in public compliments at peril of your continued employment!
Nuance goes far in this I think. You could probably say, “I love your pants/trousers,” or even, “You look very nice today” without it being all that controversial. But something about “You look good in those pants” seems to cross a line.
I wonder how it would play out if a biological woman told a biological man he “looked good in those pants”. I suspect a gay man would enjoy the compliment.
Nor would I, but does that mean that women cannot compliment you in a similar vein? Geez, how sad that we have become so PC that a genuine compliment is seen as sexual harassment or a blatant come-on.
Nuance goes far in this I think. You could probably say, “I love your pants/trousers,” or even, “You look very nice today” without it being all that controversial. But something about “You look good in those pants” seems to cross a line.
I wonder how it would play out if a biological woman told a biological man he “looked good in those pants”. I suspect a gay man would enjoy the compliment.
Time to embrace the slurs and get the T-shirts printed
I am an “irrelevant has-been lez-bean, a fascist”, a transphobic bigot full of hatred, and a sad, hateful clown and proud of it”.
This
As much as I understand that translesbianism is an obvious hoax, I find it a funny reaction to some misandrist currents of the State religion of feminism.
When I was at college there were plenty of limp-wristed young men who learned that a good way of copping off with a certain type of woman was to pretend to be left-wing, ‘anti-patriarchy’ and feminist, and put on an ‘androgynous’ appearance. It would seem to be that these so-called ‘translesbians’ are simply taking things to the next level. Good luck to them if they get what they are after, as it’s down to the woman to go along with this nonsense or not, surely?
Women are often sexually aroused by money, either that or some beautiful women are genuinely aroused by nonagenarian men and the billions are just a bonus.
There is an article in Spiked today that includes hoi polloi. The author (Tom Slater) agrees with you as does the French author of a current article on Unherd, but English dictionaries and a writer for the Guardian agree with me. I think you might have started something. I had not heard the phrase (or noticed it) for many, many years before I used it.
I guess when a word or phrase is incorporated into another language, it takes on a new meaning. I don’t think hoi polloi has the negative connotations in Greek that it has in English. The French say le brexit.
You were fortunate (one of the lucky ones – sic). You probably received one of the best educations it was possible to receive. Since then it has been downhill. If I could have chosen my education, I would have chosen a traditional English public school education but I have learnt to appreciate my own educational trajectory.
You were fortunate (one of the lucky ones – sic). You probably received one of the best educations it was possible to receive. Since then it has been downhill. If I could have chosen my education, I would have chosen a traditional English public school education but I have learnt to appreciate my own educational trajectory.
I guess when a word or phrase is incorporated into another language, it takes on a new meaning. I don’t think hoi polloi has the negative connotations in Greek that it has in English. The French say le brexit.
There is an article in Spiked today that includes hoi polloi. The author (Tom Slater) agrees with you as does the French author of a current article on Unherd, but English dictionaries and a writer for the Guardian agree with me. I think you might have started something. I had not heard the phrase (or noticed it) for many, many years before I used it.
Women are often sexually aroused by money, either that or some beautiful women are genuinely aroused by nonagenarian men and the billions are just a bonus.
When I was at college there were plenty of limp-wristed young men who learned that a good way of copping off with a certain type of woman was to pretend to be left-wing, ‘anti-patriarchy’ and feminist, and put on an ‘androgynous’ appearance. It would seem to be that these so-called ‘translesbians’ are simply taking things to the next level. Good luck to them if they get what they are after, as it’s down to the woman to go along with this nonsense or not, surely?
While I agree with you that feminists are the ones principally responsible for creating this intersectional nightmare and that it’s therefore tempting to let them stew in it, the awkward fact remains that it is affecting all women, not merely those who consider themselves feminists.
We men have little choice but to support the resistance to these terrible, anti-human ideas. And eventually of course, if women do find themselves permanently under the yoke of this baleful ideology, it won’t be long before men are next anyway, so it’s in our interest to help resist it.
I agree. We even have to support the freedom of speech of odious people who want to suppress ours. However I genuinely think that men who try and get into this issue will be told to butt out, etc. Women have to own this one and thanks to some very brave pathfinders like JK Rowling and Meghan Murphy they are starting to stand up to it.
I agree. We even have to support the freedom of speech of odious people who want to suppress ours. However I genuinely think that men who try and get into this issue will be told to butt out, etc. Women have to own this one and thanks to some very brave pathfinders like JK Rowling and Meghan Murphy they are starting to stand up to it.
Brilliant!! And you are sort of right, this is yet another thing for women to fix. These (mostly male white) clowns masquerading as women are an affront to everything women have fought for. But Peter you miss one thing – those who protest against this weird nonsense are shunned like Amish sluts. Wrong view? Maybe forget your job, just like a man fears #metoo. EVERYONE needs to stand against this very peculiar BS. Frankly I’m not sure what they’re really getting at now… but I’ve heard this is the next step to something far darker… hopefully you know what I’m talking about. Only takes a generation.
Hey look – a man trying to foist his work off on women while claiming to be persecuted by the mere fact that women have rights.
A) That’s right – men have had decades to accept and adjust to the fact that women have rights and don’t actually owe men a single thing. Feminism has been extending the possibility of liberation to men equally as long, trying to help them see the ways that patriarchy creates immense amounts of suffering and injustice for MEN, too, trying to get them to abandon the bankrupt idea of traditional masculinity that severs men from half of their humanity. Unfortunately for men, they can’t put aside their hyper-fragile egos in the short term, no matter what the long term benefits. Women have been quite busy doing the work of our OWN liberation, thank you. We’ll still be here when men are ready to get serious about liberating themselves.
B) When men say things like “You look good in those pants,” what it sounds like to me is “I’ve been staring at your ass and now I want to push you into an interaction with me so that I can do other creepy shit like checking out the front of your body – most likely staring at your tits long enough to get caught – standing too close, touching your arm or back or hair, and just generally getting off on the knowledge that I’m making you uncomfortable.” It’s quite possible that YOU weren’t going to say/do any of those things, and I acknowledge that this isn’t fair. The problem is that when so many OTHER men do that stuff to us, it becomes a matter of SELF DEFENSE/ personal safety to be very wary around men. It’s not a good solution, it doesn’t make men’s or women’s lives better, but only MEN can stop the insane amounts of domestic violence, rape, and even murder that they commit every year in the US. Looky there – more work for you!
Well said!
Feminism paved the way for this as many of the same tactics teh transactivist are using against women who refuse to bend the knee were being used on men by feminists 10 years earlier. I am NO fan or supporter of this trans non-sense but it does look very much like a kind of karma it’s just sad that innocent women (the non-feminists) are also victims of what it does.
What transactivists are doing currently bears little or no resemblance to the radical feminists of the 1980s or 1990s. They may share some (dubious) philosophical underpinnings but that’s it. For all their bluster, radical feminists and/or lesbians never behaved anything like transactivists of today do. Naturally enough, the TRAs are men.
What transactivists are doing currently bears little or no resemblance to the radical feminists of the 1980s or 1990s. They may share some (dubious) philosophical underpinnings but that’s it. For all their bluster, radical feminists and/or lesbians never behaved anything like transactivists of today do. Naturally enough, the TRAs are men.
“If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants”
To be honest, it would never have occurred to me to say that to anyone, unless we were already on pretty intimate terms.
Time to embrace the slurs and get the T-shirts printed
I am an “irrelevant has-been lez-bean, a fascist”, a transphobic bigot full of hatred, and a sad, hateful clown and proud of it”.
This
As much as I understand that translesbianism is an obvious hoax, I find it a funny reaction to some misandrist currents of the State religion of feminism.
While I agree with you that feminists are the ones principally responsible for creating this intersectional nightmare and that it’s therefore tempting to let them stew in it, the awkward fact remains that it is affecting all women, not merely those who consider themselves feminists.
We men have little choice but to support the resistance to these terrible, anti-human ideas. And eventually of course, if women do find themselves permanently under the yoke of this baleful ideology, it won’t be long before men are next anyway, so it’s in our interest to help resist it.
Brilliant!! And you are sort of right, this is yet another thing for women to fix. These (mostly male white) clowns masquerading as women are an affront to everything women have fought for. But Peter you miss one thing – those who protest against this weird nonsense are shunned like Amish sluts. Wrong view? Maybe forget your job, just like a man fears #metoo. EVERYONE needs to stand against this very peculiar BS. Frankly I’m not sure what they’re really getting at now… but I’ve heard this is the next step to something far darker… hopefully you know what I’m talking about. Only takes a generation.
Hey look – a man trying to foist his work off on women while claiming to be persecuted by the mere fact that women have rights.
A) That’s right – men have had decades to accept and adjust to the fact that women have rights and don’t actually owe men a single thing. Feminism has been extending the possibility of liberation to men equally as long, trying to help them see the ways that patriarchy creates immense amounts of suffering and injustice for MEN, too, trying to get them to abandon the bankrupt idea of traditional masculinity that severs men from half of their humanity. Unfortunately for men, they can’t put aside their hyper-fragile egos in the short term, no matter what the long term benefits. Women have been quite busy doing the work of our OWN liberation, thank you. We’ll still be here when men are ready to get serious about liberating themselves.
B) When men say things like “You look good in those pants,” what it sounds like to me is “I’ve been staring at your ass and now I want to push you into an interaction with me so that I can do other creepy shit like checking out the front of your body – most likely staring at your tits long enough to get caught – standing too close, touching your arm or back or hair, and just generally getting off on the knowledge that I’m making you uncomfortable.” It’s quite possible that YOU weren’t going to say/do any of those things, and I acknowledge that this isn’t fair. The problem is that when so many OTHER men do that stuff to us, it becomes a matter of SELF DEFENSE/ personal safety to be very wary around men. It’s not a good solution, it doesn’t make men’s or women’s lives better, but only MEN can stop the insane amounts of domestic violence, rape, and even murder that they commit every year in the US. Looky there – more work for you!
Well said!
Feminism paved the way for this as many of the same tactics teh transactivist are using against women who refuse to bend the knee were being used on men by feminists 10 years earlier. I am NO fan or supporter of this trans non-sense but it does look very much like a kind of karma it’s just sad that innocent women (the non-feminists) are also victims of what it does.
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
All I can say is that this mess is up to women to fix. You have been ferocious towards any men who transgress feminist rules for the last 40 years – I find it amazing that you are putting up with this BS. If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants” I could possibly be put out of my job. However if I put on lipstick and a wig and leered at women trying to change at the local swimming pool – they would be kicked out for complaining about it.
Iris Violet
1 year ago
I find myself experiencing a form of LGBTQ+ (or whatever it is now) and race issues fatigue. Who are all those people so concerned with whether their stances, private thoughts or indeed sexual preferences are anyone’s business but their own?
How do you plan to stop indulging them? Our venerable institutions have the initiative there. They urge us all to join them in admiration (mere tolerance won’t do) for just about every type of sexual deviant.
How do you laugh at someone and ignore them at the same time?
Anyway, will they ignore you? Activists have little patience with those who fail to be persuaded by the rightness of their cause. Remember that “Silence is Violence” trope.
THat’s all very well, but it’s hard to ignore them when they are in one’s changing room with their tackle out. Or adjusting their todger in the queue for the ladies at St Pancras, as Eddie Izzard was caught doing this week.
How do you laugh at someone and ignore them at the same time?
Anyway, will they ignore you? Activists have little patience with those who fail to be persuaded by the rightness of their cause. Remember that “Silence is Violence” trope.
THat’s all very well, but it’s hard to ignore them when they are in one’s changing room with their tackle out. Or adjusting their todger in the queue for the ladies at St Pancras, as Eddie Izzard was caught doing this week.
How do you plan to stop indulging them? Our venerable institutions have the initiative there. They urge us all to join them in admiration (mere tolerance won’t do) for just about every type of sexual deviant.
I have no objection to Gomorrahites or whatever they are now called, we have moved on a bit since the days of David Maxwell Fyfe, but this obsession is completely disproportionate. Where will it end?
Interest in my own sexuality, let alone anyone else’s, takes up very little of my time as there are so many other competing interests to occupy the mind and the time.
This is an example of the Spiral of Silence Theory by Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann in action. Those who make the most noise not only get all the attention, but they also make the majority believe that they are in the minority and cow them into silence.
Love it! I said exactly that on the article on “what was there to hide….” – was tempted on this one but you’ve done it for me Still a fan of Unheard though.
Love it! I said exactly that on the article on “what was there to hide….” – was tempted on this one but you’ve done it for me Still a fan of Unheard though.
Or “empty barrels make the most noise”. It would seem from what I’m learning from print and documentaries that there are different kinds of players in the game, those that are genuine and those that are jumping on the band wagon,the latter making it difficult for those who aren’t playing a game.Yet another category of the sincere is shown in the netflix documentary “Intersext”– the hermaphrodites.
Or “empty barrels make the most noise”. It would seem from what I’m learning from print and documentaries that there are different kinds of players in the game, those that are genuine and those that are jumping on the band wagon,the latter making it difficult for those who aren’t playing a game.Yet another category of the sincere is shown in the netflix documentary “Intersext”– the hermaphrodites.
Indeed. Who benefits from keeping the people preoccupied with these hyped up ‘culture wars’? The pundits, the commentators, the race baiters, grievance seekers or the mushroomed mental health industry? Or is it simply that this is what sells at the moment?
There is no such thing as the “LGBT group”. The Ts are a separate group, and also the dominant group with laws having been passed in their favour and many T movers and shakers in places of power.
I have no objection to Gomorrahites or whatever they are now called, we have moved on a bit since the days of David Maxwell Fyfe, but this obsession is completely disproportionate. Where will it end?
Interest in my own sexuality, let alone anyone else’s, takes up very little of my time as there are so many other competing interests to occupy the mind and the time.
This is an example of the Spiral of Silence Theory by Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann in action. Those who make the most noise not only get all the attention, but they also make the majority believe that they are in the minority and cow them into silence.
Indeed. Who benefits from keeping the people preoccupied with these hyped up ‘culture wars’? The pundits, the commentators, the race baiters, grievance seekers or the mushroomed mental health industry? Or is it simply that this is what sells at the moment?
There is no such thing as the “LGBT group”. The Ts are a separate group, and also the dominant group with laws having been passed in their favour and many T movers and shakers in places of power.
Look under the mask – they’re all Puritans. They’re back again, wearing new secular clothes, still grim-faced, still joyless, still hectoring anyone within range.
Neo-puritans: as delightful as all the other ‘neos’ – liberal;/marxist/fascist. Perhaps the OED should add another definition of ‘neo’, as meaning ‘crap’.
I suppose the definition of Puritan works quite well for them. After all, the Puritans were known for being intolerant, belligerent, fanatical, and utterly convinced of their own righteousness. I have always been convinced that Puritanism survived on many levels in the US, and not surprisingly this radical mindset thrives on the West Coast. I posit that just like the originals Pilgrims and Puritans went westward and crossed the Atlantic, because they did not/could not to fit into mainstream English society, their descendants moved farther west until they eventually ran out of land. Old electoral maps show that the states along the West Coast along with New England, the cradle of Puritanism, voted Republican, which at the time was the part of liberalism whereas the South was in the hands of conservative Democrats. The ideological switch did not happen until the late 1940s. I am convinced that there is connection between “progressivism” and Puritanism, and that the former are direct descendants of the latter.
Very interesting idea this, I would live to see some proper research done into it. It had never occurred to me why US progressives are based so overwhelmingly on both coasts.
Hunter S Thompson had a theory about why Hell’s Angels originated in California: as the frontier moved westward across North America, the PWT descendants of the jailbirds sent to colonize GA followed, a generation behind; eventually their descendants all end up in Orange Co CA. Explains Hell’s Angels, also the various eccentric religions from the region and Nixon into the bargain. (Maybe Oz too? Alas not the Right Coast. But maybe there is some sort of centrifuge effect – whether or not HST got the correct centrifuge.)
Hunter S Thompson had a theory about why Hell’s Angels originated in California: as the frontier moved westward across North America, the PWT descendants of the jailbirds sent to colonize GA followed, a generation behind; eventually their descendants all end up in Orange Co CA. Explains Hell’s Angels, also the various eccentric religions from the region and Nixon into the bargain. (Maybe Oz too? Alas not the Right Coast. But maybe there is some sort of centrifuge effect – whether or not HST got the correct centrifuge.)
Very interesting idea this, I would live to see some proper research done into it. It had never occurred to me why US progressives are based so overwhelmingly on both coasts.
Neo-puritans: as delightful as all the other ‘neos’ – liberal;/marxist/fascist. Perhaps the OED should add another definition of ‘neo’, as meaning ‘crap’.
I suppose the definition of Puritan works quite well for them. After all, the Puritans were known for being intolerant, belligerent, fanatical, and utterly convinced of their own righteousness. I have always been convinced that Puritanism survived on many levels in the US, and not surprisingly this radical mindset thrives on the West Coast. I posit that just like the originals Pilgrims and Puritans went westward and crossed the Atlantic, because they did not/could not to fit into mainstream English society, their descendants moved farther west until they eventually ran out of land. Old electoral maps show that the states along the West Coast along with New England, the cradle of Puritanism, voted Republican, which at the time was the part of liberalism whereas the South was in the hands of conservative Democrats. The ideological switch did not happen until the late 1940s. I am convinced that there is connection between “progressivism” and Puritanism, and that the former are direct descendants of the latter.
An LGB etc organization is trying to get Fox News banned in Canada by our regulator for being anti-trans. Of course the regulator is taking the request seriously. I too am exhausted with the never ending push by these groups. It has certainly backfired with me – and I suspect others. I used to be very positive to all this – now my response is “$$&!( off and leave me alone.”
Will the Canadian government set up jamming devices if the request is granted? Most of the population of Canada lives within the reach of American Fox News stations.
Will the Canadian government set up jamming devices if the request is granted? Most of the population of Canada lives within the reach of American Fox News stations.
It’s worth bearing in mind that lots of LGB have no time for the TQ+ people, and are more fed up with them than the rest of us, particularly as they fear this will end up in a backlash against them all.
Yes, backlash indeed. In Tasmania lesbians are not allowed to advertise an event as “female only”. The only way they can meet is by way of clandestine organisation.
Yes, backlash indeed. In Tasmania lesbians are not allowed to advertise an event as “female only”. The only way they can meet is by way of clandestine organisation.
Because it doesn’t end with them. It’s overflowed into mainstream culture via pronouns and toilets. As a liberal I find the pronoun issue annoying and I haven’t had to encounter the toilet issue yet but don’t look forward to it.
We are all suffering that fatigue. And yet as of today (7/4/23) 214 people have ploughed through the article and a waste of irritable comments, and still have the energy (and interest) to upvote your comment (I expect this comment counts as 215).
If we were really worried about the societal issues, we would be writing to our MPs or taking to the streets, instead of clucking on to our fellow Unherders and ruffling our feathers in semi-public. Odd, isn’t it?
Look under the mask – they’re all Puritans. They’re back again, wearing new secular clothes, still grim-faced, still joyless, still hectoring anyone within range.
An LGB etc organization is trying to get Fox News banned in Canada by our regulator for being anti-trans. Of course the regulator is taking the request seriously. I too am exhausted with the never ending push by these groups. It has certainly backfired with me – and I suspect others. I used to be very positive to all this – now my response is “$$&!( off and leave me alone.”
It’s worth bearing in mind that lots of LGB have no time for the TQ+ people, and are more fed up with them than the rest of us, particularly as they fear this will end up in a backlash against them all.
Because it doesn’t end with them. It’s overflowed into mainstream culture via pronouns and toilets. As a liberal I find the pronoun issue annoying and I haven’t had to encounter the toilet issue yet but don’t look forward to it.
We are all suffering that fatigue. And yet as of today (7/4/23) 214 people have ploughed through the article and a waste of irritable comments, and still have the energy (and interest) to upvote your comment (I expect this comment counts as 215).
If we were really worried about the societal issues, we would be writing to our MPs or taking to the streets, instead of clucking on to our fellow Unherders and ruffling our feathers in semi-public. Odd, isn’t it?
Iris Violet
1 year ago
I find myself experiencing a form of LGBTQ+ (or whatever it is now) and race issues fatigue. Who are all those people so concerned with whether their stances, private thoughts or indeed sexual preferences are anyone’s business but their own?
Jane Watson
1 year ago
“if a male identifies as a woman and is also attracted to women, he counts as a “trans lesbian””…
So transwomen are trans lesbians (as opposed to heterosexual males)?
I think someone should brief Starmer. He’ll want to keep up.
Definitely they like young women . There is a popular genre of Lesbian porn watched by men mainly . Could this be partly to blame ? Having read Robyn Exton’s diatribe against Terfs I am willing to bet it wasn’t penned by her . She may be a front for the site aiming to attract a few real young lesbian women to service the men .
I read a comment once by a lesbian whose trans woman friend asked to be fixed up with one of her friends. So the lesbian arranged a date for him with one of her friends who was also a trans women. The friend who asked for the fix-up was really annoyed, and acted like he’d been slapped in the face.
Trans women do have a problem, because transitioning doesn’t change their sexual orientation (towards women). But most straight women are turned off when they find that a suitor is (much) more attracted to himself than to her. So in claiming lesbian status, and attempting to gaslight lesbians, trans women are trying to lay claim to a group of women who will accept them as bed mates. But an intimate relationship (in and out of bed) between an AGP male and a women is nothing like an intimate relationship between two same-sex attracted women. Shannon Thrace’s “18 months” is very enlightening on this point.
Definitely they like young women . There is a popular genre of Lesbian porn watched by men mainly . Could this be partly to blame ? Having read Robyn Exton’s diatribe against Terfs I am willing to bet it wasn’t penned by her . She may be a front for the site aiming to attract a few real young lesbian women to service the men .
I read a comment once by a lesbian whose trans woman friend asked to be fixed up with one of her friends. So the lesbian arranged a date for him with one of her friends who was also a trans women. The friend who asked for the fix-up was really annoyed, and acted like he’d been slapped in the face.
Trans women do have a problem, because transitioning doesn’t change their sexual orientation (towards women). But most straight women are turned off when they find that a suitor is (much) more attracted to himself than to her. So in claiming lesbian status, and attempting to gaslight lesbians, trans women are trying to lay claim to a group of women who will accept them as bed mates. But an intimate relationship (in and out of bed) between an AGP male and a women is nothing like an intimate relationship between two same-sex attracted women. Shannon Thrace’s “18 months” is very enlightening on this point.
“So transwomen are trans lesbians (as opposed to heterosexual males)?”
“if a trans lesbian can be attracted to another trans lesbian or only to bog standard ones.”
My head hurts.
“So transwomen are trans lesbians (as opposed to heterosexual males)?”
“if a trans lesbian can be attracted to another trans lesbian or only to bog standard ones.”
My head hurts.
Much the same as doing so as a stage act, I suppose…
Rob Butler
1 year ago
If you have sex with someone as a political act, then quite frankly, you deserve what you get.
Joseph Wein
1 year ago
It’s pretty striking that lesbian app founder Robyn Exton would chastise lesbians for being interested in dating only women.
As a straight man, I have no discomfort in saying that I am uninterested in a “woman” with a p***s. A man with gender dysphoria is not women in my book, nor in my bed.
Perhaps all those lesbians who so offend Exton will take up her offer and delete her app.
I think it’s hilarious that people seem to think that being a lesbian is about being attracted to people who dress like women! I’d be interested to know what the dressing as women ratio actually is in the lesbian community. All these years I thought being gay was about same s e x attraction, not same clothing attraction.
Yep, and it’s interesting that it’s lesbians rather than straight men who are being guilt tripped into accepting partners with penises. Doesn’t seem to be any comparable pressure on straight geezers to be so “open minded”.
I think it’s hilarious that people seem to think that being a lesbian is about being attracted to people who dress like women! I’d be interested to know what the dressing as women ratio actually is in the lesbian community. All these years I thought being gay was about same s e x attraction, not same clothing attraction.
Yep, and it’s interesting that it’s lesbians rather than straight men who are being guilt tripped into accepting partners with penises. Doesn’t seem to be any comparable pressure on straight geezers to be so “open minded”.
They are already cancelled. It is an app for trans onliy.
Joseph Wein
1 year ago
It’s pretty striking that lesbian app founder Robyn Exton would chastise lesbians for being interested in dating only women.
As a straight man, I have no discomfort in saying that I am uninterested in a “woman” with a p***s. A man with gender dysphoria is not women in my book, nor in my bed.
Perhaps all those lesbians who so offend Exton will take up her offer and delete her app.
Matt Sylvestre
1 year ago
If ever there was an example of rabid political ideology coming full circle on to itself this is it… Can you imagine 20 years ago saying to these activists “you can Will yourself to not be lesbian and prefer men for the good of society”… What can be said….
Trans affirmation is just conversion therapy rebranded
Matt Sylvestre
1 year ago
If ever there was an example of rabid political ideology coming full circle on to itself this is it… Can you imagine 20 years ago saying to these activists “you can Will yourself to not be lesbian and prefer men for the good of society”… What can be said….
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Astonishing to read an article of this length rebutting an argument that is so clearly bollix that it demands no consideration at all.
The answer when someone tells you the moon is made of cheese is “no, it isn’t”. It really doesn’t require a dissertation.
That would be absolutely true were it not for the fact that the crazies are the loudest and the most determined and so influence actual policy in government, is corporations, in universities and in the media.
While the rest of us are scoffing at the stupidity, they are protesting, canceling, acting violently and succeeding at getting laws, policies and rules changed that impact us all.
This was what people said 50 years ago about gay marriage. Wake up! There’s a sea change of ideological priorities going on around us. Either go with it wherever it takes us, or stand athwart history yelling ‘stop!’
About halfway down I was like, “Why am I still reading this? Why is she still typing after the first paragraph?” That a “trans woman” (a man who still has his kit) must be accepted as a true lesbian is the final nail in the coffin of trans absurdity. Look, it’s not that the BBC, Canada, the Democrat Party and all other leftist media have swallowed this. I get it. They are all part of the global transhumanist agenda.
Folks – it’s garbage! You don’t have to go along! Get cancelled. Get imprisoned. It doesn’t matter that they dox you, cover your home in graffiti and destroy your online presence. If the small boy in the Emperor’s New Clothes fable could speak out, so can you.
You’d think. But it’s the seriousness with which all this manifest lunacy is being taken by every institution from the RAF to the Chucth of England to the High Street Banks to the schools and Unis.
It’s no coincidence that this crock of dog’s droppings f a new religion appeared out of nowhere in the aftermath of Occuoy Wall Street. Big Corporate money is behind the whole thing. The idea is to divide the public and distract, derange and discredit a Left wing that USED to actually have some interest in economic equality and a healthy society, rather than ‘intersectional’ bullshot like this.
That would be absolutely true were it not for the fact that the crazies are the loudest and the most determined and so influence actual policy in government, is corporations, in universities and in the media.
While the rest of us are scoffing at the stupidity, they are protesting, canceling, acting violently and succeeding at getting laws, policies and rules changed that impact us all.
This was what people said 50 years ago about gay marriage. Wake up! There’s a sea change of ideological priorities going on around us. Either go with it wherever it takes us, or stand athwart history yelling ‘stop!’
About halfway down I was like, “Why am I still reading this? Why is she still typing after the first paragraph?” That a “trans woman” (a man who still has his kit) must be accepted as a true lesbian is the final nail in the coffin of trans absurdity. Look, it’s not that the BBC, Canada, the Democrat Party and all other leftist media have swallowed this. I get it. They are all part of the global transhumanist agenda.
Folks – it’s garbage! You don’t have to go along! Get cancelled. Get imprisoned. It doesn’t matter that they dox you, cover your home in graffiti and destroy your online presence. If the small boy in the Emperor’s New Clothes fable could speak out, so can you.
You’d think. But it’s the seriousness with which all this manifest lunacy is being taken by every institution from the RAF to the Chucth of England to the High Street Banks to the schools and Unis.
It’s no coincidence that this crock of dog’s droppings f a new religion appeared out of nowhere in the aftermath of Occuoy Wall Street. Big Corporate money is behind the whole thing. The idea is to divide the public and distract, derange and discredit a Left wing that USED to actually have some interest in economic equality and a healthy society, rather than ‘intersectional’ bullshot like this.
Exactly, but writers have to make money and a bit of sensationalism sells.
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Astonishing to read an article of this length rebutting an argument that is so clearly bollix that it demands no consideration at all.
The answer when someone tells you the moon is made of cheese is “no, it isn’t”. It really doesn’t require a dissertation.
cathy callaghan
1 year ago
It might interest you to know that in Australia, a woman called Sall Grover started a lesbian dating app called Giggle. She used an algorithm that rejected males from joining (by their profile photos). One such rejected male is suing her through the courts for discrimination, on the grounds that he is a trans woman lesbian. His surname is Tickle, and the court case is therefore Tickle v Giggle.
I’m not making this up.
It might interest you to know that in Australia, a woman called Sall Grover started a lesbian dating app called Giggle. She used an algorithm that rejected males from joining (by their profile photos). One such rejected male is suing her through the courts for discrimination, on the grounds that he is a trans woman lesbian. His surname is Tickle, and the court case is therefore Tickle v Giggle.
I’m not making this up.
William Miller
1 year ago
I have been a high school teacher for 25 years and I have never experienced the sheer number of those identifying on the LGBQT+ spectrum as I have in the past three years. Please explain to me how this is NOT a social contagion?
I have been a high school teacher for 25 years and I have never experienced the sheer number of those identifying on the LGBQT+ spectrum as I have in the past three years. Please explain to me how this is NOT a social contagion?
polidori redux
1 year ago
“…some lesbians will end up in bed with males. But they won’t like it.”
Why should anyone sleep with anyone unless they want to? I find 99.9% of people that I meet to be unattractive, irrespective of gender, pretended gender, or sexual orientation and so I refuse to accept their advances.
Works for me. Maybe I possess self-confidence.
Maybe you’re not a teenage girl growing up online.
polidori redux
1 year ago
“…some lesbians will end up in bed with males. But they won’t like it.”
Why should anyone sleep with anyone unless they want to? I find 99.9% of people that I meet to be unattractive, irrespective of gender, pretended gender, or sexual orientation and so I refuse to accept their advances.
Works for me. Maybe I possess self-confidence.
Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Saturn has put on a dress and is eating up their children.
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Saturn has put on a dress and is eating up their children.
Dominic A
1 year ago
I had an image of a beautiful woman telling a crowd of keen young men that she is only into women, where upon each member steps forward, one by one, to proclaim, ‘I Am Lesbian!”. (Apologies to Spartacus).
Cowboy walks into a bar, hits on a woman, she tell him she’s lesbian; he asks what’s a lesbian? She explains. He says: I guess I’m a lesbian too.
Dominic A
1 year ago
I had an image of a beautiful woman telling a crowd of keen young men that she is only into women, where upon each member steps forward, one by one, to proclaim, ‘I Am Lesbian!”. (Apologies to Spartacus).
Nic Cowper
1 year ago
I always wanted to be a lesbian, however I was born a straight male. Does this mean things are looking up for me?
Sorry to disappoint you, Nic, but real lesbians do not look anything like the ones in the HSBC ads.
Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
Nic Cowper
1 year ago
I always wanted to be a lesbian, however I was born a straight male. Does this mean things are looking up for me?
James P
1 year ago
This is all so obviously a contagious mental health epidemic. And it will continue for as long as it is treated respectfully. We would not for a moment take seriously herds of people dressing up in old military uniforms and claiming to be Napoleon. How is it we have become so passive and compliant that we tolerate this delusional illness like it’s human right of some sort? These folks are nuts. Don’t celebrate them, and for heaven’s sake keep them away from our kids.
James P
1 year ago
This is all so obviously a contagious mental health epidemic. And it will continue for as long as it is treated respectfully. We would not for a moment take seriously herds of people dressing up in old military uniforms and claiming to be Napoleon. How is it we have become so passive and compliant that we tolerate this delusional illness like it’s human right of some sort? These folks are nuts. Don’t celebrate them, and for heaven’s sake keep them away from our kids.
AC Harper
1 year ago
Humpty Dumpty has fallen and cannot be put together again.
Political Lesbianism and Commercial Lesbianism colluding won’t fix Humpty either. It seems that sexual identity activists cannot force themselves to let people be people.
AC Harper
1 year ago
Humpty Dumpty has fallen and cannot be put together again.
Political Lesbianism and Commercial Lesbianism colluding won’t fix Humpty either. It seems that sexual identity activists cannot force themselves to let people be people.
m_dunec
1 year ago
If you are a western lesbian; I have no doubt that this article really hits home – same sex attraction shouldn’t need explaining twice, but some men can’t take no for an answer i guess.
Thanks for shedding your wonderful light on this issue K, keep em coming!
This article is not about men taking no for an answer, its about edgy lesbians convincing straight women to be lesbians and telling other biological lesbians that rejecting a man who identifies as a lesbian is wrong.
Do not blame men for this BS. This is the fruit of the bizarre logic that has come from women’s desire to be freed from their perceived biological constraints.
You want to go back to the root? Start with the 2nd wave feminist insistence that the only differences between men and women were biological, that the rest is just social construct. They fought tooth and nail, screamed and yelled that this was so. So, in fact, if you can separate the biological from the emotional and mental makeup that is a result of the social construct everyone can be completely the same and equal. The whole gender ideology is built on that. Hence the reason that so many of these people are also socialists or communists, they believe in perfect, absolute equality. What you are seeing here is just one more extension of that.
One could argue that 2nd wave feminism went off the rails and instead of trying to enable women to live their best possible lives as women, that they should instead be more like the stereotypes of what women think men are. Even the pill was less celebrated as a means of family planning and more for the idea that women could, in their minds, have sex the way men did, in their minds that meant sex without consequences. Only, there are always consequences, there have ALWAYS been consequences for men who behaved that way, women just did not see them.
(As a side note, most women have NO clue what men are really like and have no real interest in understanding us. God forbid any man make stereotypical comments about a woman but they are free to make them about us at any time.)
The fundamental flaw was the failure to acknowledge that at the mean of the distributions of men and women, men and women are NOT the same, not physically, not mentally and not emotionally. Rather than trying to say that they are the same, we should have recognized those differences and figured out how to empower people to live their best lives, lives that emphasize their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses. Men and women are best when they are a team. My fiance is better at certain things than I am and vice versa. Some people would argue those things are cliches but cliches, like steriotypes and myths generally have some seed of truth. As my kids put it, she is better at the “mom things” than I am, even though I make an effort. She is better at converting a house into a home but I am better at creating the bones and structure of the house she converts, but damn she can paint and she can lay deck boards. I make a lot more money but I work 6 days a week and have spent years at a time working 60-80 hr weeks. She takes care of people for a living and would never voluntarily work any job that was not 9-5 M-F because she wants to be with her daughters, her friends and her mother. She has specifically said that she would not want a promotion because she would not want the stress regardless of the money.
Our biology effects our psychology, effects our emotional makeup and so our choices. One perfect example. Men will marry over and down the educational and socioeconomic ladder. Women, marry over and up. A male surgeon will date and marry the receptionist at the auto dealer. A female surgeon will hold out for a venture capitalist. Why is this? Women husband resources and see husbands as resources. Men are more interested in beauty/health, character and temperament than in what financial resources a woman can bring to a relationship. There is a lot of solid science on that.
Distributions have tails and the people on those tails deserve the opportunity to live their best lives and to be free to go where their talents and desires lead them. Whether that is woman who wants to be a CEO of a tech firm or a man that wants to be a homemaker taking care of kids and a household. But the vast majority of us sit somewhere in the middle of the distribution. The tails however have been running the show and making everyone miserable.
“Do not blame men for this BS.“
Not even the ones in dresses that think lesbians should accept them as lesbians and date them?
Call me cynical, but I suspect the owner of the app is a trans woman and not simply an edgy lesbian, unless edgy lesbian is the new wording for lesbian with a p e n I s.
I made the effort to look into dear Robyn’s biography, and she is indeed a woman. She claims to be bisexual, and started the app, because she was looking for a girlfriend. From what I have read, she is a very bizarre person, and not one with whom I would want to spend any amount of time.
I made the effort to look into dear Robyn’s biography, and she is indeed a woman. She claims to be bisexual, and started the app, because she was looking for a girlfriend. From what I have read, she is a very bizarre person, and not one with whom I would want to spend any amount of time.
It’s hard to be certain from the photograph but I think Robyn Exton is a real woman but she could just be fronting the app for a transwoman or group of trans women.
It’s hard to be certain from the photograph but I think Robyn Exton is a real woman but she could just be fronting the app for a transwoman or group of trans women.
There are differences between men and women. Even “2nd wave feminists” know this. But levelling the playing field for women is always going to benefit society in general. Why? Not all women can have or want to have children. Some are happy to work 60 hour weeks and to do “man” work. Being born to like only other women – biological women- is not a choice. It is what you are. Just like some people like same sex and opposite sex people. But never should any person force themselves on anyone else then demand respect for doing so. That is what is happening to very many women who will never date a man and very few people take it seriously. In my book, that takes us right back to the early 1920s when my gran and her sisters fought for levelling the playing field, fie example, having a bank account without their fathers, brothers or husbands standing for them. My great aunt fought to be able to have a same sex relationship and won. These women need to be celebrated as do the ones that continue the fight for equity.
Screw equity. But I will fight like hell for every human being to have an equal opportunity to live their best life as they choose and their talents allow.
Equity is a fantasy that is the purest definition of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
I gave you a thumbs up for the general sentiment expressed in your comment, but I vehemently disagree with the concept of equity. There is no equity in life! We are all born with different physical and mental abilities, skills, and talents. You don’t see/hear me throwing a tantrum because I don’t have the musical genius of a Mozart. It is what it is, and I accept that.
Screw equity. But I will fight like hell for every human being to have an equal opportunity to live their best life as they choose and their talents allow.
Equity is a fantasy that is the purest definition of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
I gave you a thumbs up for the general sentiment expressed in your comment, but I vehemently disagree with the concept of equity. There is no equity in life! We are all born with different physical and mental abilities, skills, and talents. You don’t see/hear me throwing a tantrum because I don’t have the musical genius of a Mozart. It is what it is, and I accept that.
I agree with much of this.
Perhaps the most painful and/or funny and/or ironic thing about Miss Stock’s essays these days is how blind she is to the role that her worldview (as a feminist and lesbian) has played in creating the trans-mania that she now objects to. The sexual revolutionaries originally wanted to be free from the weighty implications of sex, and to be free from the burdens of gender. They thought of this primarily in terms of child-birthing and child-rearing.
But now we see that the revolution cannot be contained and will not stop there. If we’re to be free of the inherent reproductive differences between men and women, why not ignore other inconvenient differences, too? As I asked in a recent (much disliked) comment… if it should be illegal to distinguish between men and women when hiring nurses and policemen, why should it be legal to distinguish between them when staffing your athletics team?
The response you typically get is simply one that hasn’t fully thought through its own implications. “But, being a policeman or nurse has nothing to do with gender, but being a swimmer or runner does.” Let’s play a Rawls-ian Veil of Ignorance game with that one… if you are being violently attacked and call for a policeman to come help you, but could know nothing about the attending policeman other than his or her gender, would you prefer it be a man or a woman? Or if you are in pain in a hospital room and call for a nurse to come help you, but could know nothing about the attending nurse other than his or her gender, would you prefer it be a man or a woman? Across human history, if you needed a hug, were you more likely to turn to your mother or your father? How ludicrous the sexual revolutionaries are, to pretend these basic facts of human existence could be wished away.
Men dying on a battlefield do not cry for their dads.
There is a REASON why Mother’s Day is one of the top 2 holidays celebrated and Father’s Day does not even crack the top 15.
Again, at the median of the distribution, men and women are different enough that it matters a lot. But rather than fight that fact, we should be figuring out how to harness the benefits that each bring to work, home and society generally.
Its not a Boolean thing. Men have female traits and vice versa. It is a question of degree and those degrees make a difference. Just as the difference between water and ice is the difference between 32 and 34 degrees of temperature. Small differences can have large impacts.
Kathleen Stock is not a radical feminist nor has she ever claimed to be. Her philosophy career never even touched on women’s issues until the trans contagion took off and piqued her interest.
Have you read her book Material Girls? It’s a pretty sober dissection of gender ideology using philosophical arguments. It’s not a feminist analysis of the issue so why in the world are you claiming that “her worldview” is responsible for gender theory?
I would be happy to know more about her and her beliefs – indeed I am intrigued by the possibility of a non-feminist lesbian, and what such a person might look like.
That said, if she believes there’s nothing wrong with living in a sexual relationship with another woman, then she is participating in some significant way in the sexual revolution to which I refer.
I would be happy to know more about her and her beliefs – indeed I am intrigued by the possibility of a non-feminist lesbian, and what such a person might look like.
That said, if she believes there’s nothing wrong with living in a sexual relationship with another woman, then she is participating in some significant way in the sexual revolution to which I refer.
Men dying on a battlefield do not cry for their dads.
There is a REASON why Mother’s Day is one of the top 2 holidays celebrated and Father’s Day does not even crack the top 15.
Again, at the median of the distribution, men and women are different enough that it matters a lot. But rather than fight that fact, we should be figuring out how to harness the benefits that each bring to work, home and society generally.
Its not a Boolean thing. Men have female traits and vice versa. It is a question of degree and those degrees make a difference. Just as the difference between water and ice is the difference between 32 and 34 degrees of temperature. Small differences can have large impacts.
Kathleen Stock is not a radical feminist nor has she ever claimed to be. Her philosophy career never even touched on women’s issues until the trans contagion took off and piqued her interest.
Have you read her book Material Girls? It’s a pretty sober dissection of gender ideology using philosophical arguments. It’s not a feminist analysis of the issue so why in the world are you claiming that “her worldview” is responsible for gender theory?
I think it actually is about some men not taking no for an answer and trying to guilt trip some women into sleeping with them. Just breathtaking that some lesbian rights activists are actively colluding in this.
I can remember being guilt tripped into having unwanted sex, when I was young and naive and hadn’t learnt to assert myself. Millions of women are murdered, world wide, for rejecting a male.
According to the founder of this app, Robyn whatever her surname is, every woman is a closeted bisexual. Seriously, she went on record with this crazy claim. As an absolutely straight woman who has never been remotely interested in other women, I find this statement utterly ludicrous.
I can remember being guilt tripped into having unwanted sex, when I was young and naive and hadn’t learnt to assert myself. Millions of women are murdered, world wide, for rejecting a male.
According to the founder of this app, Robyn whatever her surname is, every woman is a closeted bisexual. Seriously, she went on record with this crazy claim. As an absolutely straight woman who has never been remotely interested in other women, I find this statement utterly ludicrous.
You want to go back to the root? There’s a guy, his name was something like, Michel Foucault. He was a French intellectual. Blame him, if you think you can actually reduce this to a simple matter of darn those 2nd wave feminists for daring to be unhappy with their lot, and for not being willing to accept the sort of biological determinism that you seem to find so fetching.
First, facts is facts, the data and the science support my position.
Second, nobody suggested that 2nd wave feminists did not have legitimate gripes. Everything from not being able to hold a CC without a husband or father to lack of access to professions was just bullshit.
If you paid attention, what I am saying is that every single human being, regardless of their sex, should be free to choose their own path, to live their best possible life, to find happiness and fulfillment, to strive as far as their talents allow, and to do so unencumbered.
What I am saying is that it was ALWAYS foolish to profess that women and men are the same except for biology. The argument was an understandable one to make at the time, even if it was wrong.
What I am saying is that those differences, even or perhaps especially because they occur among individuals on a spectrum, are a collective strength.
It never seems to occur to people that perhaps we have failed to ask the right questions and so have come up with bad solutions.
Do we think women should have the same autonomy and freedom of choice as men? Absolutely.
But what is the GOAL? Is it absolute equality in all things if doing so makes people miserable OR is it to provide everyone the opportunity and the freedom to pursue that which fulfills and makes them happy?
The mistake the 2nd wave feminists made was in assuming that if all the legal and social constraints were removed this would result in men and women being equal in everything. They assumed that if you took away all the legal and social constraints that all of a sudden 50% of CEOs would be women, 50% of doctors and corporate executives and politicians etc, would be women.
What they failed to allow for was choice and they always argue in a manner that assumes that men and women would be willing to make the same choices, and they do not. Outside the tails of the distribution, women will generally choose activities and jobs that are people oriented and generally more cooperative, lawyer, doctor, teacher, nurse, social worker, etc. And yes, they also choose to be homemakers, as do some men who also sit on the tails of the distribution. In general, men choose careers that are more “thing” oriented and competitive.
Women, generally value interpersonal relationships more highly than men do. Study after study has shown just how important those relationships are for women’s mental health. Men tend to have fewer friends, some have none at all, and have the same needs and same risks to mental health, just to a lesser degree. Again, this is all on a distribution and that distribution has tails, but the mean and the median of that distribution is where most of us sit. But if you value relationships highly then you are going to be less willing to engage in work that is going to keep you going 70 or 80 hrs a week and you are going to be even less willing to do it coding a database or designing a new steering system or reviewing financial analysis. My own daughter got accepted to one of the top 4 engineering programs in the country. I had strongly encouraged it. In the end, she hated it and hated the culture of it, switched majors to neuroscience and then went to law school. I encouraged her to do IP law, some of the highest paying work for lawyers and she had the support of her dean and others to do that. She said she has no interest, she wants to do trial law, particulary malpractice law after she saw a young woman turned into a vegetable by two doctors. People over things.
Women = Biased toward People, caring and Cooperation
Men = Biased toward Things, achievment and Competition
These are personal values and they dictate our choices on everything from what we choose to study to what profession we choose to how much we are willing to sacrifice for career advancement to even how we parent our children.
Hence the reason that the “people” professions such as doctor or lawyer are coming to be dominated by women and why the “thing” professions such as engineering are ever more dominated by men.But then even within these professions we get choices as we see with my daughter, she is willing to sacrifice income (granted, in her case that may not be a whole lot) for helping people she believes have been harmed. Most men would take the money. My fiance specifically decided that she did not want to get a promotion because it would mean more hours at work and more risk. She values the time with her daughters and her mother and her friends (me too hopefully) and does not want to pay that price. She also values a known consistency and income over the opportunity to make more but with risk. Most men would do the opposite which is exactly what her last two male peers did.One left to start his own business a year after being promoted and the other got fired after being promoted. Those risks turn her stomach.
I’m a trained economist. I do other consulting work, but that is my background. I can tell you in all honesty, that the research strongly supports that the idea that there is a pay gap, but that pay gap is measured across the entire universe of working men and women regardless of career choice. When compared within a career path the gap narrows to nearly zero. You cannot lump in engineers with school teachers. Then, when you dig deeper, you also find that where gaps exist within professions, generally, that gap comes down to choices people made. Are there exceptions? Yes. Big finance is particularly known to still have issues. It has an aggressive, risky, hyper masculine culture that even most men would not fit in. Given how well our financial system has been run, we could use more women in there diluting the testosterone and helping put the breaks on the high risk behaviors.
But again, what is the goal of all this?
I would argue that it is to free people to choose whatever path makes them most happy and fulfilled. We are all going to die. We have a limited time on this earth and we are all entitled to make the most of it as freely as possible. It seems to me that this is the single most important thing.
But, if we are going to do that, then that means people, men and women, are going to make different choices based on our values, values that are significantly effected by our biology, and those different choices are going to result in different outcomes but if the result is more satisfied people then that should be more than acceptable, it should be desired.
Just a side note on how very very small changes in biology can have huge impacts. The difference between human DNA and Chimpanzee DNA is less than 1%. Think about that, less than 1% and you get a vastly different species with vastly different, behaviors, capabilities and social structure. Is it then really surprising that the minute differences in DNA between human men and women would result in not just the obvious biological differences but differences in brain function and emotional makeup. Is it surprising that as a result of these minute differences one sex gets pounded with one powerful drug, testosterone, while the other gets pounded with another, estrogen and that those drugs effect development and behavior or that those differences would effect choices and decision making? Is it surprising that as a result of those diffences in choices that we get different outcomes? Of course not. But is that necessarily a bad thing if people are happy and able to choose that which satisfies them most?
First, facts is facts, the data and the science support my position.
Second, nobody suggested that 2nd wave feminists did not have legitimate gripes. Everything from not being able to hold a CC without a husband or father to lack of access to professions was just bullshit.
If you paid attention, what I am saying is that every single human being, regardless of their sex, should be free to choose their own path, to live their best possible life, to find happiness and fulfillment, to strive as far as their talents allow, and to do so unencumbered.
What I am saying is that it was ALWAYS foolish to profess that women and men are the same except for biology. The argument was an understandable one to make at the time, even if it was wrong.
What I am saying is that those differences, even or perhaps especially because they occur among individuals on a spectrum, are a collective strength.
It never seems to occur to people that perhaps we have failed to ask the right questions and so have come up with bad solutions.
Do we think women should have the same autonomy and freedom of choice as men? Absolutely.
But what is the GOAL? Is it absolute equality in all things if doing so makes people miserable OR is it to provide everyone the opportunity and the freedom to pursue that which fulfills and makes them happy?
The mistake the 2nd wave feminists made was in assuming that if all the legal and social constraints were removed this would result in men and women being equal in everything. They assumed that if you took away all the legal and social constraints that all of a sudden 50% of CEOs would be women, 50% of doctors and corporate executives and politicians etc, would be women.
What they failed to allow for was choice and they always argue in a manner that assumes that men and women would be willing to make the same choices, and they do not. Outside the tails of the distribution, women will generally choose activities and jobs that are people oriented and generally more cooperative, lawyer, doctor, teacher, nurse, social worker, etc. And yes, they also choose to be homemakers, as do some men who also sit on the tails of the distribution. In general, men choose careers that are more “thing” oriented and competitive.
Women, generally value interpersonal relationships more highly than men do. Study after study has shown just how important those relationships are for women’s mental health. Men tend to have fewer friends, some have none at all, and have the same needs and same risks to mental health, just to a lesser degree. Again, this is all on a distribution and that distribution has tails, but the mean and the median of that distribution is where most of us sit. But if you value relationships highly then you are going to be less willing to engage in work that is going to keep you going 70 or 80 hrs a week and you are going to be even less willing to do it coding a database or designing a new steering system or reviewing financial analysis. My own daughter got accepted to one of the top 4 engineering programs in the country. I had strongly encouraged it. In the end, she hated it and hated the culture of it, switched majors to neuroscience and then went to law school. I encouraged her to do IP law, some of the highest paying work for lawyers and she had the support of her dean and others to do that. She said she has no interest, she wants to do trial law, particulary malpractice law after she saw a young woman turned into a vegetable by two doctors. People over things.
Women = Biased toward People, caring and Cooperation
Men = Biased toward Things, achievment and Competition
These are personal values and they dictate our choices on everything from what we choose to study to what profession we choose to how much we are willing to sacrifice for career advancement to even how we parent our children.
Hence the reason that the “people” professions such as doctor or lawyer are coming to be dominated by women and why the “thing” professions such as engineering are ever more dominated by men.But then even within these professions we get choices as we see with my daughter, she is willing to sacrifice income (granted, in her case that may not be a whole lot) for helping people she believes have been harmed. Most men would take the money. My fiance specifically decided that she did not want to get a promotion because it would mean more hours at work and more risk. She values the time with her daughters and her mother and her friends (me too hopefully) and does not want to pay that price. She also values a known consistency and income over the opportunity to make more but with risk. Most men would do the opposite which is exactly what her last two male peers did.One left to start his own business a year after being promoted and the other got fired after being promoted. Those risks turn her stomach.
I’m a trained economist. I do other consulting work, but that is my background. I can tell you in all honesty, that the research strongly supports that the idea that there is a pay gap, but that pay gap is measured across the entire universe of working men and women regardless of career choice. When compared within a career path the gap narrows to nearly zero. You cannot lump in engineers with school teachers. Then, when you dig deeper, you also find that where gaps exist within professions, generally, that gap comes down to choices people made. Are there exceptions? Yes. Big finance is particularly known to still have issues. It has an aggressive, risky, hyper masculine culture that even most men would not fit in. Given how well our financial system has been run, we could use more women in there diluting the testosterone and helping put the breaks on the high risk behaviors.
But again, what is the goal of all this?
I would argue that it is to free people to choose whatever path makes them most happy and fulfilled. We are all going to die. We have a limited time on this earth and we are all entitled to make the most of it as freely as possible. It seems to me that this is the single most important thing.
But, if we are going to do that, then that means people, men and women, are going to make different choices based on our values, values that are significantly effected by our biology, and those different choices are going to result in different outcomes but if the result is more satisfied people then that should be more than acceptable, it should be desired.
Just a side note on how very very small changes in biology can have huge impacts. The difference between human DNA and Chimpanzee DNA is less than 1%. Think about that, less than 1% and you get a vastly different species with vastly different, behaviors, capabilities and social structure. Is it then really surprising that the minute differences in DNA between human men and women would result in not just the obvious biological differences but differences in brain function and emotional makeup. Is it surprising that as a result of these minute differences one sex gets pounded with one powerful drug, testosterone, while the other gets pounded with another, estrogen and that those drugs effect development and behavior or that those differences would effect choices and decision making? Is it surprising that as a result of those diffences in choices that we get different outcomes? Of course not. But is that necessarily a bad thing if people are happy and able to choose that which satisfies them most?
“Do not blame men for this BS.“
Not even the ones in dresses that think lesbians should accept them as lesbians and date them?
Call me cynical, but I suspect the owner of the app is a trans woman and not simply an edgy lesbian, unless edgy lesbian is the new wording for lesbian with a p e n I s.
There are differences between men and women. Even “2nd wave feminists” know this. But levelling the playing field for women is always going to benefit society in general. Why? Not all women can have or want to have children. Some are happy to work 60 hour weeks and to do “man” work. Being born to like only other women – biological women- is not a choice. It is what you are. Just like some people like same sex and opposite sex people. But never should any person force themselves on anyone else then demand respect for doing so. That is what is happening to very many women who will never date a man and very few people take it seriously. In my book, that takes us right back to the early 1920s when my gran and her sisters fought for levelling the playing field, fie example, having a bank account without their fathers, brothers or husbands standing for them. My great aunt fought to be able to have a same sex relationship and won. These women need to be celebrated as do the ones that continue the fight for equity.
I agree with much of this.
Perhaps the most painful and/or funny and/or ironic thing about Miss Stock’s essays these days is how blind she is to the role that her worldview (as a feminist and lesbian) has played in creating the trans-mania that she now objects to. The sexual revolutionaries originally wanted to be free from the weighty implications of sex, and to be free from the burdens of gender. They thought of this primarily in terms of child-birthing and child-rearing.
But now we see that the revolution cannot be contained and will not stop there. If we’re to be free of the inherent reproductive differences between men and women, why not ignore other inconvenient differences, too? As I asked in a recent (much disliked) comment… if it should be illegal to distinguish between men and women when hiring nurses and policemen, why should it be legal to distinguish between them when staffing your athletics team?
The response you typically get is simply one that hasn’t fully thought through its own implications. “But, being a policeman or nurse has nothing to do with gender, but being a swimmer or runner does.” Let’s play a Rawls-ian Veil of Ignorance game with that one… if you are being violently attacked and call for a policeman to come help you, but could know nothing about the attending policeman other than his or her gender, would you prefer it be a man or a woman? Or if you are in pain in a hospital room and call for a nurse to come help you, but could know nothing about the attending nurse other than his or her gender, would you prefer it be a man or a woman? Across human history, if you needed a hug, were you more likely to turn to your mother or your father? How ludicrous the sexual revolutionaries are, to pretend these basic facts of human existence could be wished away.
I think it actually is about some men not taking no for an answer and trying to guilt trip some women into sleeping with them. Just breathtaking that some lesbian rights activists are actively colluding in this.
You want to go back to the root? There’s a guy, his name was something like, Michel Foucault. He was a French intellectual. Blame him, if you think you can actually reduce this to a simple matter of darn those 2nd wave feminists for daring to be unhappy with their lot, and for not being willing to accept the sort of biological determinism that you seem to find so fetching.
This article is not about men taking no for an answer, its about edgy lesbians convincing straight women to be lesbians and telling other biological lesbians that rejecting a man who identifies as a lesbian is wrong.
Do not blame men for this BS. This is the fruit of the bizarre logic that has come from women’s desire to be freed from their perceived biological constraints.
You want to go back to the root? Start with the 2nd wave feminist insistence that the only differences between men and women were biological, that the rest is just social construct. They fought tooth and nail, screamed and yelled that this was so. So, in fact, if you can separate the biological from the emotional and mental makeup that is a result of the social construct everyone can be completely the same and equal. The whole gender ideology is built on that. Hence the reason that so many of these people are also socialists or communists, they believe in perfect, absolute equality. What you are seeing here is just one more extension of that.
One could argue that 2nd wave feminism went off the rails and instead of trying to enable women to live their best possible lives as women, that they should instead be more like the stereotypes of what women think men are. Even the pill was less celebrated as a means of family planning and more for the idea that women could, in their minds, have sex the way men did, in their minds that meant sex without consequences. Only, there are always consequences, there have ALWAYS been consequences for men who behaved that way, women just did not see them.
(As a side note, most women have NO clue what men are really like and have no real interest in understanding us. God forbid any man make stereotypical comments about a woman but they are free to make them about us at any time.)
The fundamental flaw was the failure to acknowledge that at the mean of the distributions of men and women, men and women are NOT the same, not physically, not mentally and not emotionally. Rather than trying to say that they are the same, we should have recognized those differences and figured out how to empower people to live their best lives, lives that emphasize their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses. Men and women are best when they are a team. My fiance is better at certain things than I am and vice versa. Some people would argue those things are cliches but cliches, like steriotypes and myths generally have some seed of truth. As my kids put it, she is better at the “mom things” than I am, even though I make an effort. She is better at converting a house into a home but I am better at creating the bones and structure of the house she converts, but damn she can paint and she can lay deck boards. I make a lot more money but I work 6 days a week and have spent years at a time working 60-80 hr weeks. She takes care of people for a living and would never voluntarily work any job that was not 9-5 M-F because she wants to be with her daughters, her friends and her mother. She has specifically said that she would not want a promotion because she would not want the stress regardless of the money.
Our biology effects our psychology, effects our emotional makeup and so our choices. One perfect example. Men will marry over and down the educational and socioeconomic ladder. Women, marry over and up. A male surgeon will date and marry the receptionist at the auto dealer. A female surgeon will hold out for a venture capitalist. Why is this? Women husband resources and see husbands as resources. Men are more interested in beauty/health, character and temperament than in what financial resources a woman can bring to a relationship. There is a lot of solid science on that.
Distributions have tails and the people on those tails deserve the opportunity to live their best lives and to be free to go where their talents and desires lead them. Whether that is woman who wants to be a CEO of a tech firm or a man that wants to be a homemaker taking care of kids and a household. But the vast majority of us sit somewhere in the middle of the distribution. The tails however have been running the show and making everyone miserable.
m_dunec
1 year ago
If you are a western lesbian; I have no doubt that this article really hits home – same sex attraction shouldn’t need explaining twice, but some men can’t take no for an answer i guess.
Thanks for shedding your wonderful light on this issue K, keep em coming!
John Riordan
1 year ago
I’m no feminist but when it comes to this sort of thing I am outraged that adult consent is apparently now politically conditional for lesbians. Sexual preference operates on a principle similar to secrecy of the ballot: you are not required to disclose your reasons and preferences because if you were, the entire principle is undermined.
Lesbians have the same right as anyone else to say no and for their choice to be regarded as private and not to be contradicted or questioned. Anyone who says otherwise is not a decent human being.
Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
I’m no feminist but when it comes to this sort of thing I am outraged that adult consent is apparently now politically conditional for lesbians. Sexual preference operates on a principle similar to secrecy of the ballot: you are not required to disclose your reasons and preferences because if you were, the entire principle is undermined.
Lesbians have the same right as anyone else to say no and for their choice to be regarded as private and not to be contradicted or questioned. Anyone who says otherwise is not a decent human being.
Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Roddy Campbell
1 year ago
Fabulous, forthright and witty article. Thanks.
Roddy Campbell
1 year ago
Fabulous, forthright and witty article. Thanks.
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
A dear friend of mine is a lesbian. Decades ago, when we were both young and single, it was a surreal experience to be out in a bar for a pint with her, as we’d both lech over the same women, using near-identical terminology. She was certainly not PC, and described women she fancied in specific terms that were way more lurid than most blokes would ever use. We’d take bets on which of us would be first to pull a woman we both fancied. (She scored way more than me.) She also told me that, if bored, she could easily sleep with a very fit bloke (i.e., someone so fit that it cancelled out his maleness), on the basis it would be more companionable than a vibrator. At the time, I was surprised by that, as my assumption had been that she would have found the very idea of sex with any bloke very off-putting. But she said no, if he was very fit, and she was bored and horny, he’d be better than nothing, for such a limited purpose. (Sadly, as my body was no more than average, I never got lucky in that sense LOL.) But obviously she’d never be able to actually fall in love with any bloke, no matter how fit he was – she never in her life had had any romantic feelings about men, and never would. She found the idea of “falling in love” with a bloke comical. And, by contrast, she could sleep with a woman with an ordinary body, because there was the potential of emotional involvement with a woman that would more than compensate for an average body. As a result of having zero capacity for romantic interest in a man (whatever about the odd emotionless fumble with a himbo), she was objective about men and genuinely liked men as friends.
That’s got an uptick from me; rings true.
I think you’ve hit upon an important factor in lesbian relationships: the emotionality involved which they can’t (or perhaps wouldn’t expect to) get from a romantic relationship with a male. It sheds more light on factors other than the physical which attract people to each other (we’ve had the example of sapiosexuality with JS Mill and his partner).
Humans are complex, of both sexes. What’s beyond ridiculous is anyone insisting that either sex should have a physical relationship with anyone else, this article really is as basic as that.
That’s got an uptick from me; rings true.
I think you’ve hit upon an important factor in lesbian relationships: the emotionality involved which they can’t (or perhaps wouldn’t expect to) get from a romantic relationship with a male. It sheds more light on factors other than the physical which attract people to each other (we’ve had the example of sapiosexuality with JS Mill and his partner).
Humans are complex, of both sexes. What’s beyond ridiculous is anyone insisting that either sex should have a physical relationship with anyone else, this article really is as basic as that.
A dear friend of mine is a lesbian. Decades ago, when we were both young and single, it was a surreal experience to be out in a bar for a pint with her, as we’d both lech over the same women, using near-identical terminology. She was certainly not PC, and described women she fancied in specific terms that were way more lurid than most blokes would ever use. We’d take bets on which of us would be first to pull a woman we both fancied. (She scored way more than me.) She also told me that, if bored, she could easily sleep with a very fit bloke (i.e., someone so fit that it cancelled out his maleness), on the basis it would be more companionable than a vibrator. At the time, I was surprised by that, as my assumption had been that she would have found the very idea of sex with any bloke very off-putting. But she said no, if he was very fit, and she was bored and horny, he’d be better than nothing, for such a limited purpose. (Sadly, as my body was no more than average, I never got lucky in that sense LOL.) But obviously she’d never be able to actually fall in love with any bloke, no matter how fit he was – she never in her life had had any romantic feelings about men, and never would. She found the idea of “falling in love” with a bloke comical. And, by contrast, she could sleep with a woman with an ordinary body, because there was the potential of emotional involvement with a woman that would more than compensate for an average body. As a result of having zero capacity for romantic interest in a man (whatever about the odd emotionless fumble with a himbo), she was objective about men and genuinely liked men as friends.
Sue Ward
1 year ago
There doesn’t seem to be the same pressure on gay men to sleep with trans man but then most trans men seem to be sad self denying lesbians where as trans women are heterosexual men in womanface.
Sue Ward
1 year ago
There doesn’t seem to be the same pressure on gay men to sleep with trans man but then most trans men seem to be sad self denying lesbians where as trans women are heterosexual men in womanface.
Sharon Overy
1 year ago
Look, you always lose the arguments on this issue because, like the trans-activists, you’re so ideologically possessed by the toxicity of identity politics that you can’t see the wood for the trees.
The upshot is a universal and doesn’t depend on stupid labels – the person one desires is not obliged to reciprocate. The end.
“Sorry, no, I don’t fancy you”, or similar, is sufficient.
When I read this comment I assumed that the writer had mis-typed as it doesn’t make sense. But then I see there are 22 upvotes. Could someone please tell me what the comment means?
I read the comment to mean that Kathleen Stock, who from time to time reminds us that she is now a lesbian, takes the whole identity label issue (I am a “real” lesbian) to extremes, because she’s “ ideologically possessed by the toxicity of identity politics” and has to clarify that “lesbian” means no one-eyed trouser worms.
I read the comment to mean that Kathleen Stock, who from time to time reminds us that she is now a lesbian, takes the whole identity label issue (I am a “real” lesbian) to extremes, because she’s “ ideologically possessed by the toxicity of identity politics” and has to clarify that “lesbian” means no one-eyed trouser worms.
When I read this comment I assumed that the writer had mis-typed as it doesn’t make sense. But then I see there are 22 upvotes. Could someone please tell me what the comment means?
It should be but most people don’t take rejection well.
Sharon Overy
1 year ago
Look, you always lose the arguments on this issue because, like the trans-activists, you’re so ideologically possessed by the toxicity of identity politics that you can’t see the wood for the trees.
The upshot is a universal and doesn’t depend on stupid labels – the person one desires is not obliged to reciprocate. The end.
“Sorry, no, I don’t fancy you”, or similar, is sufficient.
Carol Moore
1 year ago
Kathleen another excellently thought out analysis – thank you
Carol Moore
1 year ago
Kathleen another excellently thought out analysis – thank you
Robbie K
1 year ago
I’m happy to be corrected on this, but it’s my impression that generally speaking lesbians don’t like being penetrated, at least in the same manner of heterosexuals. It’s not strictly necessary of course, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty these are the things that kind of matter.
I think it probably best to avoid making general statements about lesbians and what sort of sexual engagements they (we) prefer. That said, penetration (or lack thereof) isn’t the issue for most, or actually, any of the lesbians I have known in my many years on this planet. It’s all the bits that come attached to the penetrating instrument that, generally speaking, the lesbians I’ve known tend to be keen to avoid.
Nicely put. I take it therefore that the person attached to said instrument should be avoided regardless of what gender and sexual orientation they undertake?
So I suppose with that rationale, it is reasonable that some lesbians would be fine with trans women? Ie it’s not the p***s, but the man. If the man was a convincing women or at least super feminine and caring, then that might be what some would want?
Nicely put. I take it therefore that the person attached to said instrument should be avoided regardless of what gender and sexual orientation they undertake?
So I suppose with that rationale, it is reasonable that some lesbians would be fine with trans women? Ie it’s not the p***s, but the man. If the man was a convincing women or at least super feminine and caring, then that might be what some would want?
I think it probably best to avoid making general statements about lesbians and what sort of sexual engagements they (we) prefer. That said, penetration (or lack thereof) isn’t the issue for most, or actually, any of the lesbians I have known in my many years on this planet. It’s all the bits that come attached to the penetrating instrument that, generally speaking, the lesbians I’ve known tend to be keen to avoid.
I’m happy to be corrected on this, but it’s my impression that generally speaking lesbians don’t like being penetrated, at least in the same manner of heterosexuals. It’s not strictly necessary of course, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty these are the things that kind of matter.
Mr Tyler
1 year ago
Nobody would have believed this could possibly happen 25 years ago.
Nobody would have believed this could possibly happen 25 years ago.
Peter Joy
1 year ago
It’s rather a silly question that invites ribald answers.
But as usual, Professor Stock is absolutely right.
Ms Exton, OTOH, is clearly a woke-drunk idiot. No doubt a product of one of California’s finest humanities departments. In the rapture of Faith, NPCs like her have no regard for cause, effect and logic. But as night follows day, she will find her HER app’s meat catalogue stocked with nothing but incels in frocks; each hoping to finally have his sick way with A REAL WOMAN, and finding no one to cop off with but others of the same kidney.
Could lead to some angry and disappointing dates….
What a dystopia this all is: 25 years ago, not even Houllebecq could have imagined it.
If they ARE real women they would be happy to date one another . Something tells me they can easily spot another woman impersonator on lesbian dating websites and only go for real women .
If they ARE real women they would be happy to date one another . Something tells me they can easily spot another woman impersonator on lesbian dating websites and only go for real women .
Peter Joy
1 year ago
It’s rather a silly question that invites ribald answers.
But as usual, Professor Stock is absolutely right.
Ms Exton, OTOH, is clearly a woke-drunk idiot. No doubt a product of one of California’s finest humanities departments. In the rapture of Faith, NPCs like her have no regard for cause, effect and logic. But as night follows day, she will find her HER app’s meat catalogue stocked with nothing but incels in frocks; each hoping to finally have his sick way with A REAL WOMAN, and finding no one to cop off with but others of the same kidney.
Could lead to some angry and disappointing dates….
What a dystopia this all is: 25 years ago, not even Houllebecq could have imagined it.
Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
penny wright
1 year ago
I wonder if Exton and Kelly realise their argument is just conversion therapy under a ‘progressive’ guise.
penny wright
1 year ago
I wonder if Exton and Kelly realise their argument is just conversion therapy under a ‘progressive’ guise.
Michael James
1 year ago
This whole subject is intrinsically hilarious. But has anyone got the joke?
Quite right. It seems like we are all living in a real world Truman Show.
Michael James
1 year ago
This whole subject is intrinsically hilarious. But has anyone got the joke?
Last edited 1 year ago by Michael James
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago
Who cares? You’d think they might have a bit of simple courtesy and go about their business without bothering the rest of us… but no.
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago
Who cares? You’d think they might have a bit of simple courtesy and go about their business without bothering the rest of us… but no.
Nikki Hayes
1 year ago
This is really really simple – a so-called trans women who says they are a lesbian is really a heterosexual MAN! Lesbians, and gay men, are same SEX attracted, trans people do not fit into this category despite their perverted desire to do so. A lesbian is not attracted in any way, shape or form to DICKs, just like a gay man is no way attracted to pussies. I have serious issues with the way lesbians are being critisised for not being attracted to what is basically a biological man with the obligatory meat and two veg! I have actually seen said lesbians called bigots and transphobes for not wanting to sleep with trans “women”. “Embrace the p***s” is one particular disgusting phrase I have seen – this needs to stop NOW! The LGB community needs to stand up and fight against this hijacking of their movement by perverted men (and it IS men, how much do you hear from trans “men” about demanding that men sleep with them?), unfortunately gay men in particular seem to be really silent on this issue – so much for the LGB movement!
Nikki Hayes
1 year ago
This is really really simple – a so-called trans women who says they are a lesbian is really a heterosexual MAN! Lesbians, and gay men, are same SEX attracted, trans people do not fit into this category despite their perverted desire to do so. A lesbian is not attracted in any way, shape or form to DICKs, just like a gay man is no way attracted to pussies. I have serious issues with the way lesbians are being critisised for not being attracted to what is basically a biological man with the obligatory meat and two veg! I have actually seen said lesbians called bigots and transphobes for not wanting to sleep with trans “women”. “Embrace the p***s” is one particular disgusting phrase I have seen – this needs to stop NOW! The LGB community needs to stand up and fight against this hijacking of their movement by perverted men (and it IS men, how much do you hear from trans “men” about demanding that men sleep with them?), unfortunately gay men in particular seem to be really silent on this issue – so much for the LGB movement!
Stephen Kristan
1 year ago
To the LGBTQIA+ “community,” an observation: the universe doesn’t give a rat’s podex about your feelings or your identity, and neither do the vast population of the planet.
Unfortunately, we are made to care. And that is the problem.
Stephen Kristan
1 year ago
To the LGBTQIA+ “community,” an observation: the universe doesn’t give a rat’s podex about your feelings or your identity, and neither do the vast population of the planet.
David Yetter
11 months ago
The gender ideologues are so convinced that subjectively felt gender is all that matters (or at least pretend to be so convinced) that they seem to have not noticed that people generally have sexual preferences, not gender preference, when it comes to intimate partners.
David Yetter
11 months ago
The gender ideologues are so convinced that subjectively felt gender is all that matters (or at least pretend to be so convinced) that they seem to have not noticed that people generally have sexual preferences, not gender preference, when it comes to intimate partners.
Francis Turner
11 months ago
Once upon a time about a decade ago you could joke about so-and-so being a male lesbian. The joke is now an accepted truth and woe betide anyone who jokes about it
Indeed. We are all lesbians now! We are all trans now! Maybe I’ll get lucky with some beautiful gay girl who is really interested in a 15 stone hairy lesbian like me. Wish me luck, but i dont need it as I am gorgeous
Indeed. We are all lesbians now! We are all trans now! Maybe I’ll get lucky with some beautiful gay girl who is really interested in a 15 stone hairy lesbian like me. Wish me luck, but i dont need it as I am gorgeous
Francis Turner
11 months ago
Once upon a time about a decade ago you could joke about so-and-so being a male lesbian. The joke is now an accepted truth and woe betide anyone who jokes about it
Steven Farrall
1 year ago
Lesbianism isn’t a ’cause’! Sigh.
Steven Farrall
1 year ago
Lesbianism isn’t a ’cause’! Sigh.
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
The weird thing about all this is that I am now under the distinct impression that if I put on a dress and pretend to be a woman many doors would open for me in terms of career opportunity.
I wonder if this, along with greater sexual access to women, is also a motivating factor for transgenderism.
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
The weird thing about all this is that I am now under the distinct impression that if I put on a dress and pretend to be a woman many doors would open for me in terms of career opportunity.
I wonder if this, along with greater sexual access to women, is also a motivating factor for transgenderism.
Gordon Buckman
1 year ago
I blame Thatcher and her care in the community policy. These people should be locked away in a foreboding institution, far away from sane society. What they are trying to do is pure evil. They are trying to erase women and womanhood. It is pure misogyny writ large, and there are women who support this insanity!
Gordon Buckman
1 year ago
I blame Thatcher and her care in the community policy. These people should be locked away in a foreboding institution, far away from sane society. What they are trying to do is pure evil. They are trying to erase women and womanhood. It is pure misogyny writ large, and there are women who support this insanity!
N Satori
1 year ago
A rather long-winded essay on what it means to be a lesbian and a woman by Kathleen Stock – challenging those who have got it wrong. Fascinating, perhaps, if you are a lesbian or a feminist – otherwise, a bit specialist (and a bit of a bore).
I find myself yearning for the early days of UnHerd where on Friday you could count on a good article by Douglas Murray or on other days pieces by historians such as Ed West, Niall Ferguson or Tom Holland. Lately we get an awful lot of Stock, Bindel, Terry Eagleton and (God spare us!) Paul Kingsnorth. Is this publication in decline?
It’s interesting that the likes of, say, Tom Holland and Paul Kingsnorth find each others writings and perspectives interesting. Perhaps being boring is in the eye of the beholder?
I have little patience for the misandrist ravings of Bindel, but Kathleen’s articles are usually interesting and thought provoking. Maybe they could be improved by being slightly shorter, but this essay is indeed a worthwhile read that made me smile
Wait! Don’t you wake up each day and wonder or worry what is happening to the miniscule percentage of people who believe they were born in the wrong body?
The latest is that heterosexual males “must” accept transwomen as sexual partners or they are transphobic. So it maybe the mens turn to be cancelled and lost their job etc.,etc,.
Agreed – the article was something that is clearly way more important to Kathleen (as a current Lesbian) than to me (or all who are not “traditional” lesbians).
I was hoping she would bring it to a higher level (ala Mary Harrington) – say discuss how this ultimate absurdity in identity politics is what happens when people are trained to forget that there is innate order in the Universe (or something).
You know what I find boring? Pontificating historians who wouldn’t know a witty or entertaining sentence if it smacked them across the face, and for whom nothing is interesting unless it has a p***s attached.
It’s interesting that the likes of, say, Tom Holland and Paul Kingsnorth find each others writings and perspectives interesting. Perhaps being boring is in the eye of the beholder?
I have little patience for the misandrist ravings of Bindel, but Kathleen’s articles are usually interesting and thought provoking. Maybe they could be improved by being slightly shorter, but this essay is indeed a worthwhile read that made me smile
Wait! Don’t you wake up each day and wonder or worry what is happening to the miniscule percentage of people who believe they were born in the wrong body?
The latest is that heterosexual males “must” accept transwomen as sexual partners or they are transphobic. So it maybe the mens turn to be cancelled and lost their job etc.,etc,.
Agreed – the article was something that is clearly way more important to Kathleen (as a current Lesbian) than to me (or all who are not “traditional” lesbians).
I was hoping she would bring it to a higher level (ala Mary Harrington) – say discuss how this ultimate absurdity in identity politics is what happens when people are trained to forget that there is innate order in the Universe (or something).
You know what I find boring? Pontificating historians who wouldn’t know a witty or entertaining sentence if it smacked them across the face, and for whom nothing is interesting unless it has a p***s attached.
It’s what sells. And soon writers will be replaced by AI which is cheaper.
N Satori
1 year ago
A rather long-winded essay on what it means to be a lesbian and a woman by Kathleen Stock – challenging those who have got it wrong. Fascinating, perhaps, if you are a lesbian or a feminist – otherwise, a bit specialist (and a bit of a bore).
I find myself yearning for the early days of UnHerd where on Friday you could count on a good article by Douglas Murray or on other days pieces by historians such as Ed West, Niall Ferguson or Tom Holland. Lately we get an awful lot of Stock, Bindel, Terry Eagleton and (God spare us!) Paul Kingsnorth. Is this publication in decline?
Mike Bell
1 year ago
Dear Kathleen. Wonderful article, but based on a misapprehension. You are assuming that the writer is open to logic and discussion.
However, along with nearly all the rest of the Woke, they have adopted an ideology which distorts their view of the world. These things which seem an obvious nonsense to most of us, are logical consequences of the ideology. To them they make perfect sense.
Exton has not ‘decided’ or ‘chosen’ to adopt these views, they are foisted on her by her own brain. There is no hope other than a personal ‘Red Pill moment.
Mike Bell
1 year ago
Dear Kathleen. Wonderful article, but based on a misapprehension. You are assuming that the writer is open to logic and discussion.
However, along with nearly all the rest of the Woke, they have adopted an ideology which distorts their view of the world. These things which seem an obvious nonsense to most of us, are logical consequences of the ideology. To them they make perfect sense.
Exton has not ‘decided’ or ‘chosen’ to adopt these views, they are foisted on her by her own brain. There is no hope other than a personal ‘Red Pill moment.
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago
I have a feeling that this nonsense is being peddled by that (thankfully small and unrepresentative) cohort of homosexual men whom we used to describe, in less inhibited times, as ‘screaming p******s’ i.e. flagrant exhibitionists who get their kicks from outraging their fellow citizens.
Last edited 1 year ago by Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago
I have a feeling that this nonsense is being peddled by that (thankfully small and unrepresentative) cohort of homosexual men whom we used to describe, in less inhibited times, as ‘screaming p******s’ i.e. flagrant exhibitionists who get their kicks from outraging their fellow citizens.
Last edited 1 year ago by Malcolm Knott
Cho Jinn
1 year ago
“ And if they do end up liking it, they probably aren’t lesbians.”
Ah, the ol’ no-true-scotsman.
Cho Jinn
1 year ago
“ And if they do end up liking it, they probably aren’t lesbians.”
Ah, the ol’ no-true-scotsman.
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Of course Lesbians can sleep with men, or their pets, teddies, dolls… what a ludicrous expression ” sleep with’ is? Like Americans who say that their dog ” needs to go to the restroom/bathroom”, or Counsel who described his accused client as ” Not so much a thief as a compulsive property transference executive”……
and after all, may it please the court, a murderer is really but an extroverted suicide . . .
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Of course Lesbians can sleep with men, or their pets, teddies, dolls… what a ludicrous expression ” sleep with’ is? Like Americans who say that their dog ” needs to go to the restroom/bathroom”, or Counsel who described his accused client as ” Not so much a thief as a compulsive property transference executive”……
Douglas H
1 year ago
Love it. This bit is so true: “ you can’t berate yourself into feeling turned on by something or someone that would otherwise leave you cold — unless, of course, berating yourself is already your kink.” This is, as Kat points out, some 1970s/1980s chickens coming home to roost
Douglas H
1 year ago
Love it. This bit is so true: “ you can’t berate yourself into feeling turned on by something or someone that would otherwise leave you cold — unless, of course, berating yourself is already your kink.” This is, as Kat points out, some 1970s/1980s chickens coming home to roost
Abby Wynne
11 months ago
The only thing I’ll be proud of in June is me not losing my temper.
Boycott things like this app. Leave them to it. Create something new that facilitates what is missing.
Abby Wynne
11 months ago
The only thing I’ll be proud of in June is me not losing my temper.
Boycott things like this app. Leave them to it. Create something new that facilitates what is missing.
Ali W
11 months ago
I suspect the trans-lesbians narrative is just another chapter in the long, glorious history of men using the tools at their disposal to get women to have sex with them.
Ali W
11 months ago
I suspect the trans-lesbians narrative is just another chapter in the long, glorious history of men using the tools at their disposal to get women to have sex with them.
Gretchen Carlisle
1 year ago
While I think it’s horrible what these trans-identifying men are doing to try to make lesbians sleep with them, I don’t understand how it becomes an issue for lesbians– I’m not lesbian, but whenever I’ve turned down a man for a date, I don’t feel a need to explain exactly what it is about them that doesn’t appeal to me– I’d have considered that rude, and I’d have thought them rude if they asked why I wouldn’t go out with them. Has the culture changed somehow so that one now tells a suitor what you don’t like about them? I just can’t see a reason for it ever to come up that you are turning them down because you aren’t attracted to men. If you want to take a stand on not having men on lesbian dating apps, that’s different, and I totally would support that, but as for individual cases, I’m unclear why the reason you turn turn someone down ever comes up.
It used to be that simple for lesbians also, until the trendy trans lot came along. Now, lesbians are labelled phobic if they state they are not attracted to a man who thinks he’s not, and again publicly judged for being same sex attracted.
It is pretty amazing that heterosexuals and homosexuals (men mainly) seem to have avoided the problem.
But why state at all to a suitor that they are not attracted to men? Why make a public issue out of your private relationships? I’m on the other side in terms of experience– I happen to be a 6′ tall woman, and very few men are interested in dating a woman taller than they are (greatly limiting my pool of suitors). But no one said that to my face; I only knew it secondhand when they would say it to a friend of mine (“too bad she’s so tall…”) What I mean is, a lesbian doesn’t have to talk publicly about who she is or isn’t attracted to, or give someone a reason when she turns down an advance (“Thanks, but no thanks”, and if pressured, “I just don’t want to” or “I’m not interested”). Unless a lesbian wants to be an activist, she doesn’t have to have anything to do with this insanity, does she? Unless the social code has changed so that you have to say why you don’t want to get together with someone, that you have to justify your demurral? –which seems utterly crazy to me.
Turns out a very large number of trans women identity as lesbian, and so actual lesbians were brought into the conversation. Dont forget, this is also a relatively new conversation without president, and it’s mainly been had through social media, forcing the issue with outright bullying.
I guess if you don’t have a public image, or you care less about what people think it’s easier, but I don’t judge.
Ask the politicians to show their real hands on the issue, and settle this madness one and for all!
Turns out a very large number of trans women identity as lesbian, and so actual lesbians were brought into the conversation. Dont forget, this is also a relatively new conversation without president, and it’s mainly been had through social media, forcing the issue with outright bullying.
I guess if you don’t have a public image, or you care less about what people think it’s easier, but I don’t judge.
Ask the politicians to show their real hands on the issue, and settle this madness one and for all!
But why state at all to a suitor that they are not attracted to men? Why make a public issue out of your private relationships? I’m on the other side in terms of experience– I happen to be a 6′ tall woman, and very few men are interested in dating a woman taller than they are (greatly limiting my pool of suitors). But no one said that to my face; I only knew it secondhand when they would say it to a friend of mine (“too bad she’s so tall…”) What I mean is, a lesbian doesn’t have to talk publicly about who she is or isn’t attracted to, or give someone a reason when she turns down an advance (“Thanks, but no thanks”, and if pressured, “I just don’t want to” or “I’m not interested”). Unless a lesbian wants to be an activist, she doesn’t have to have anything to do with this insanity, does she? Unless the social code has changed so that you have to say why you don’t want to get together with someone, that you have to justify your demurral? –which seems utterly crazy to me.
It used to be that simple for lesbians also, until the trendy trans lot came along. Now, lesbians are labelled phobic if they state they are not attracted to a man who thinks he’s not, and again publicly judged for being same sex attracted.
It is pretty amazing that heterosexuals and homosexuals (men mainly) seem to have avoided the problem.
Last edited 1 year ago by m_dunec
Gretchen Carlisle
1 year ago
While I think it’s horrible what these trans-identifying men are doing to try to make lesbians sleep with them, I don’t understand how it becomes an issue for lesbians– I’m not lesbian, but whenever I’ve turned down a man for a date, I don’t feel a need to explain exactly what it is about them that doesn’t appeal to me– I’d have considered that rude, and I’d have thought them rude if they asked why I wouldn’t go out with them. Has the culture changed somehow so that one now tells a suitor what you don’t like about them? I just can’t see a reason for it ever to come up that you are turning them down because you aren’t attracted to men. If you want to take a stand on not having men on lesbian dating apps, that’s different, and I totally would support that, but as for individual cases, I’m unclear why the reason you turn turn someone down ever comes up.
stephen archer
1 year ago
I have to admit I managed a couple of paragraphs of the article which is more than usual for this topic. I’d hoped the comments would give me a bit of perspective but I was just as confused after this. I’d like everyone just to get on with their lives as they see fit and ignore the whole gender issue/discussion, and I think Kathleen should change career and start doing something meaningful. The only reason I’m commenting is from personal experience, having worked with a person for a couple of years who is apparently categorised as “trans lesbian”, who I had not identified as such (wasn’t in my mindset) or felt the need to categorise during this period, in other words I regarded her as a woman, albeit with deeper voice than normal. Only later was I informed of the reality and then I started to wonder if he/she hadn’t had transformed would he/she have been straight and into women in a heterosexual manner, and what was going on in her mind/soul? I personally blame application and gross misuse of IT-technology for many of the world’s less pressing crises over the last 20 years including geneder issues, giving a platform to unbalanced and radical individuals intent on force feeding their warped ideologies on the masses. Downticks anticipated.
stephen archer
1 year ago
I have to admit I managed a couple of paragraphs of the article which is more than usual for this topic. I’d hoped the comments would give me a bit of perspective but I was just as confused after this. I’d like everyone just to get on with their lives as they see fit and ignore the whole gender issue/discussion, and I think Kathleen should change career and start doing something meaningful. The only reason I’m commenting is from personal experience, having worked with a person for a couple of years who is apparently categorised as “trans lesbian”, who I had not identified as such (wasn’t in my mindset) or felt the need to categorise during this period, in other words I regarded her as a woman, albeit with deeper voice than normal. Only later was I informed of the reality and then I started to wonder if he/she hadn’t had transformed would he/she have been straight and into women in a heterosexual manner, and what was going on in her mind/soul? I personally blame application and gross misuse of IT-technology for many of the world’s less pressing crises over the last 20 years including geneder issues, giving a platform to unbalanced and radical individuals intent on force feeding their warped ideologies on the masses. Downticks anticipated.
Michael Drucker
1 year ago
Two quotes come to mind whilst trying to untangle the delusions contained in this article:
Douglas Adams & Lewis Carroll
“Oh dear,” says God, “I hadn’t thought of that,” and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
“Oh, that was easy,” says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.
Last edited 1 year ago by Michael Drucker
Michael Drucker
1 year ago
Two quotes come to mind whilst trying to untangle the delusions contained in this article:
Douglas Adams & Lewis Carroll
“Oh dear,” says God, “I hadn’t thought of that,” and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
“Oh, that was easy,” says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.
Last edited 1 year ago by Michael Drucker
Thor Albro
1 year ago
Wait, does this mean that as a man if I am not interested in sex with a trans-woman I am a “twisted fascist”? I don’t believe there is any pressure out there to compel such hook-ups, although it would be entertaining to watch the activists try. Surprised Stock didn’t bring up this incongruity.
Thor Albro
1 year ago
Wait, does this mean that as a man if I am not interested in sex with a trans-woman I am a “twisted fascist”? I don’t believe there is any pressure out there to compel such hook-ups, although it would be entertaining to watch the activists try. Surprised Stock didn’t bring up this incongruity.
M. Jamieson
11 months ago
Interesting article, I’ve never heard anyone before put the current weirdness around male lesbianism in the larger context of political lesbianism, but I think Stock is really on to something in making that connection.
M. Jamieson
11 months ago
Interesting article, I’ve never heard anyone before put the current weirdness around male lesbianism in the larger context of political lesbianism, but I think Stock is really on to something in making that connection.
Harry Phillips
11 months ago
But nobody has to sleep with anybody – regardless of what sex they are/think they are/want to be.
Harry Phillips
11 months ago
But nobody has to sleep with anybody – regardless of what sex they are/think they are/want to be.
Arkadian X
1 year ago
I find that in this case Kathleen’s premise is faulty. The dating app Her is defined as a “queer” dating app (this is the first thing you see as you open one of the links provided here) and in this sense they cater for a certain demographic. I would imagine lesbians wouldn’t use it at all (do lesbians use dating apps?) and go elsewhere and in so doing solving the problem.
The question would be if ALL the dating apps for lesbians are “queer”.
Queer used to be used as a more upfront alternative to gay . ( like blacks calling themselves by the N-word ) Why assume all lesbians are going to know it has been appropriated in this way?
Queer used to be used as a more upfront alternative to gay . ( like blacks calling themselves by the N-word ) Why assume all lesbians are going to know it has been appropriated in this way?
The founder of HER stated “The future of lesbian is trans”: doesn’t quite jibe with your assertion that the HER app is a queer dating app, not a lesbian one. Not to mention the name of the app.
I laughed when the “L-Word” featured probably the first instance of a “male lesbian” on TV back in the late 90s/early 2000s. It was so stupid, so hilarious, such an obviously absurd thing. And yet, here we are.
The founder of HER stated “The future of lesbian is trans”: doesn’t quite jibe with your assertion that the HER app is a queer dating app, not a lesbian one. Not to mention the name of the app.
I laughed when the “L-Word” featured probably the first instance of a “male lesbian” on TV back in the late 90s/early 2000s. It was so stupid, so hilarious, such an obviously absurd thing. And yet, here we are.
I shoulda know it would come to this.
Last edited 1 year ago by Nona Yubiz
Arkadian X
1 year ago
I find that in this case Kathleen’s premise is faulty. The dating app Her is defined as a “queer” dating app (this is the first thing you see as you open one of the links provided here) and in this sense they cater for a certain demographic. I would imagine lesbians wouldn’t use it at all (do lesbians use dating apps?) and go elsewhere and in so doing solving the problem.
The question would be if ALL the dating apps for lesbians are “queer”.
Last edited 1 year ago by Arkadian X
Vici C
1 year ago
It would be nice to think this furore over gender was one of the initiatives, subconscious, naturally, in humankind’s last ditch effort to pull back from the brink of total planet destruction through overpopulation and subsequent loss of diversity.
Vici C
1 year ago
It would be nice to think this furore over gender was one of the initiatives, subconscious, naturally, in humankind’s last ditch effort to pull back from the brink of total planet destruction through overpopulation and subsequent loss of diversity.
William Shaw
1 year ago
After reading the article and thinking about it for a few minutes I’ve come to realise that I really don’t care a toss who lesbians sleep with or why, not one iota. Lesbian sleeping habits simply don’t make the list.
You only worked that out for yourself AFTER reading the article?
William Shaw
1 year ago
After reading the article and thinking about it for a few minutes I’ve come to realise that I really don’t care a toss who lesbians sleep with or why, not one iota. Lesbian sleeping habits simply don’t make the list.
Philip Clayton
11 months ago
I fully admit to being baffled by the ‘gender’ wars. As a heterosexual (or should that be Cis?) man who doesn’t give a stuff what people do sexually, and havent for 50 years, and want to be supportive of any oppressed groups, I haven’t a clue where I stand. I do recall Eddie Izzard talking at length about his life as a transvestite while talking about his sexual attraction to women; he went on to say that made him fundamentally a lesbian. As a thoughtful, intelligent, self-aware, person who am I to make any criticism of comment on that position? I assume there are transvestites who are attracted to men and feel they should be treated sexually as women. I don’t understand the toilet wars. I attend toilets that regularly have signs informing me that toilet attendants of both sexes wilol be in cleaning. If necessary build three toilet facilities. I just heard File On 4 discussing sex education in school and one provider has a website that identifies over SEVENTY genders!!!??? How is that even conceivable? I support the right of gays and lesbians to live openly and freely as a matter of natural justice, and still do. Naturally this extends to any group unjustly treated by society. The problem I have is I don’t have time to spend several months reading sometimes quite impenetrable arguments to get uo to speed. My years are limitedso could someone please produce an objective short booklet on the subject?
Philip Clayton
11 months ago
I fully admit to being baffled by the ‘gender’ wars. As a heterosexual (or should that be Cis?) man who doesn’t give a stuff what people do sexually, and havent for 50 years, and want to be supportive of any oppressed groups, I haven’t a clue where I stand. I do recall Eddie Izzard talking at length about his life as a transvestite while talking about his sexual attraction to women; he went on to say that made him fundamentally a lesbian. As a thoughtful, intelligent, self-aware, person who am I to make any criticism of comment on that position? I assume there are transvestites who are attracted to men and feel they should be treated sexually as women. I don’t understand the toilet wars. I attend toilets that regularly have signs informing me that toilet attendants of both sexes wilol be in cleaning. If necessary build three toilet facilities. I just heard File On 4 discussing sex education in school and one provider has a website that identifies over SEVENTY genders!!!??? How is that even conceivable? I support the right of gays and lesbians to live openly and freely as a matter of natural justice, and still do. Naturally this extends to any group unjustly treated by society. The problem I have is I don’t have time to spend several months reading sometimes quite impenetrable arguments to get uo to speed. My years are limitedso could someone please produce an objective short booklet on the subject?
Dominic Lyne
11 months ago
Just re-read this article and all the comments. I didn’t realise I had already read it at first as there are so many similar articles! However there’s 3 takeaways for me,
1) that really anyone can be trans and I think this is the issue most people have and it dilutes the whole thing and gets confusing. I can say that i am no longer a man, but a lesbian, transwoman that has just not transitioned… I just need a beautiful, gay, trans man that has also not transitioned! Lol
2) Lesbians may be OK with trans lesbians (that were straight men) as long as they are nice, good looking and probably effeminate (p***s optional lol). Lesbians don’t like typical maleness ot seems. The p***s is a red herring perhaps!?
3) oh, and the the world is crazy !!
Dominic Lyne
11 months ago
Just re-read this article and all the comments. I didn’t realise I had already read it at first as there are so many similar articles! However there’s 3 takeaways for me,
1) that really anyone can be trans and I think this is the issue most people have and it dilutes the whole thing and gets confusing. I can say that i am no longer a man, but a lesbian, transwoman that has just not transitioned… I just need a beautiful, gay, trans man that has also not transitioned! Lol
2) Lesbians may be OK with trans lesbians (that were straight men) as long as they are nice, good looking and probably effeminate (p***s optional lol). Lesbians don’t like typical maleness ot seems. The p***s is a red herring perhaps!?
3) oh, and the the world is crazy !!
Nancy G
1 year ago
These men who claim to be lesbians need to be reminded of the trans mantra: Born in the wrong body.
Nancy G
1 year ago
These men who claim to be lesbians need to be reminded of the trans mantra: Born in the wrong body.
Fafa Fafa
11 months ago
There are very few problems as first worldy as whether male lesbians are lesbians or not. Another 5 minutes down the drain.
Fafa Fafa
11 months ago
There are very few problems as first worldy as whether male lesbians are lesbians or not. Another 5 minutes down the drain.
Tim Smith
1 year ago
Why is this an issue that is particular to lesbians?
I’m sure this is an important aspect of it, but surely there are a much larger number of trans women who are seeking to have sex with heterosexual men?
The article is about the trans women who identify as trans lesbians, they have no interest in men heterosexual or otherwise due to the fact that, like lesbians, they favour a partner with female genitalia. The point they miss, is that they too need to have female genitalia to qualify as lesbians. Prior to identifying as women, they were straight men with autogynaphilic tendencies. What we used to call cross dressers.
It seems to have gone out of general use, partly because it does not conform to the current ‘liberal’ (sic) ideology.
Because it has three syllables, however, it seems to have escaped being banned, unlike the N-word, the C-word etc.
The Cancel Crowd only ever get one- and two-syllable words banned. Subconsciously, they equate syllables with ‘respect’.
Person suffering from spasticism? Fine. Spastic? NO!!
Person with learning disabilities? Fine. Retarded? NOOO!!!!
It seems to have gone out of general use, partly because it does not conform to the current ‘liberal’ (sic) ideology.
Because it has three syllables, however, it seems to have escaped being banned, unlike the N-word, the C-word etc.
The Cancel Crowd only ever get one- and two-syllable words banned. Subconsciously, they equate syllables with ‘respect’.
Person suffering from spasticism? Fine. Spastic? NO!!
Person with learning disabilities? Fine. Retarded? NOOO!!!!
The article is about the trans women who identify as trans lesbians, they have no interest in men heterosexual or otherwise due to the fact that, like lesbians, they favour a partner with female genitalia. The point they miss, is that they too need to have female genitalia to qualify as lesbians. Prior to identifying as women, they were straight men with autogynaphilic tendencies. What we used to call cross dressers.
Tim Smith
1 year ago
Why is this an issue that is particular to lesbians?
I’m sure this is an important aspect of it, but surely there are a much larger number of trans women who are seeking to have sex with heterosexual men?
Scott Norman Rosenthal
11 months ago
I suspect that many trans, Woke, etc., really don’t have strong libidos. Sex is casual and not very serious to them.
Scott Norman Rosenthal
11 months ago
I suspect that many trans, Woke, etc., really don’t have strong libidos. Sex is casual and not very serious to them.
Cate Terwilliger
11 months ago
I so appreciate your insights: smart, sharp, funny. You don’t know what an encouragement you are. In Colorado, I’m currently navigating the fallout from publicly dissenting from my employer’s blanket embrace of trans “rights,” including soliciting employee participation in my city’s Pride celebration, which I founded as gay pride in 1991. Now, like Pride everywhere, it has been taken over by gender ideologues who don’t stand for what we did, and in fact stand against the historical interests and rights of women, and lesbians in particular. Thanks for your example!
Steve Hay
9 months ago
At the risk of pointing out the obvious. The LGBQ Lesbians advocating letting the biological males who claim to be Lesbians into their apps are shooting themselves in the foot. Apart from the hideous ones every one will ignore. the rest are likely to have a smooth line and persuasive manner. They will snap up a goodly number of freshly minted new Lesbians who are intrigued by the prospect of an each way bet. Guess what they are now “out of the pond” and the traditionalists are still looking.
Daniel P
1 year ago
I gotta say that it seems like a whole lot of this crap has been started by white women.
In their determination to be liberated from their sex and to stick it to men, they have, through their, often bizarre, philosophical masturbation, managed to stretch the boundaries of what is real in defiance of common sense.
When people argued with them about where these things could lead and explained to them the potential logical outcomes, they scoffed, said these were “straw men” and extremes that would never happen in reality.
Now the consequences are being seen.
Women do not even know what women are anymore. Since nobody can define it, then there cannot be any rules to protect them.
But, I would point out, that apart from the men that are playing at being women, this is a situation created by women.
BS from start to finish. Stop blaming women for the crazed ideas and actions by men. Feminists never acted this way.
Daniel P
1 year ago
I gotta say that it seems like a whole lot of this crap has been started by white women.
In their determination to be liberated from their sex and to stick it to men, they have, through their, often bizarre, philosophical masturbation, managed to stretch the boundaries of what is real in defiance of common sense.
When people argued with them about where these things could lead and explained to them the potential logical outcomes, they scoffed, said these were “straw men” and extremes that would never happen in reality.
Now the consequences are being seen.
Women do not even know what women are anymore. Since nobody can define it, then there cannot be any rules to protect them.
But, I would point out, that apart from the men that are playing at being women, this is a situation created by women.
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Why is this essay NOT in Special Measures?
This sort of stuff normally is.
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Why is this essay NOT in Special Measures?
This sort of stuff normally is.
They had their own category, lesbians! Men In dresses are not lesbians, Trans or otherwise as they lack v I r g I n a s.
Christopher Barclay
1 year ago
Create your own category: cis-lesbians.
Caradog Wiliams
1 year ago
As people have said many times before on UnHerd, these articles are meant to distract us from the important things. This allows the comedians to get the most upticks but is it really why we pay for UnHerd?
Caradog Wiliams
1 year ago
As people have said many times before on UnHerd, these articles are meant to distract us from the important things. This allows the comedians to get the most upticks but is it really why we pay for UnHerd?
All I can say is that this mess is up to women to fix. You have been ferocious towards any men who transgress feminist rules for the last 40 years – I find it amazing that you are putting up with this BS. If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants” I could possibly be put out of my job. However if I put on lipstick and a wig and leered at women trying to change at the local swimming pool – they would be kicked out for complaining about it.
“If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants”
To be honest, it would never have occurred to me to say that to anyone, unless we were already on pretty intimate terms.
Lost in translation mid-Atlantic I suspect
how about ” You’d look even better out of those pants”?
Oh dear! Even my sweet mistress would regard that as impertinent before the third martini
Or even “You look great in those pants – now put your trousers back on.”
When I get home I’m going to take off my wife’s pants.
They are killing me!
When I get home I’m going to take off my wife’s pants.
They are killing me!
Every group has one and Unherd has Nicky.
Oh dear! Even my sweet mistress would regard that as impertinent before the third martini
Or even “You look great in those pants – now put your trousers back on.”
Every group has one and Unherd has Nicky.
He probably doesn’t know that outside of North America “pants” are underwear.
I took him to mean trousery things, but I still wouldn’t say it I’m old school – no flirting at work except at the Christmas party when I run riot.
I’m not entirely sure that they aren’t becoming one and the same thing !
and it’s Tom Lewis, in for the win!
Funny, thanks.
Funny, thanks.
and it’s Tom Lewis, in for the win!
I took him to mean trousery things, but I still wouldn’t say it I’m old school – no flirting at work except at the Christmas party when I run riot.
I’m not entirely sure that they aren’t becoming one and the same thing !
Nor would I, but does that mean that women cannot compliment you in a similar vein? Geez, how sad that we have become so PC that a genuine compliment is seen as sexual harassment or a blatant come-on.
I’ve generally found that people appreciate compliments. Even women.
Are women still people, then? I’m really finding it hard to keep up with all this.
In the past 10-15 years commenting on a woman’s appearance in the workplace has become a major ‘No! No!’ – with the interpretation of male lewdness and patriarchal arrogance driving such outrageous behaviour. Pay woman colleagues or in public compliments at peril of your continued employment!
Are women still people, then? I’m really finding it hard to keep up with all this.
In the past 10-15 years commenting on a woman’s appearance in the workplace has become a major ‘No! No!’ – with the interpretation of male lewdness and patriarchal arrogance driving such outrageous behaviour. Pay woman colleagues or in public compliments at peril of your continued employment!
I used to enjoy office banter and flirtations – thank God I’m getting old enough to blame it on the old days.
True.
Nuance goes far in this I think. You could probably say, “I love your pants/trousers,” or even, “You look very nice today” without it being all that controversial. But something about “You look good in those pants” seems to cross a line.
“You look very nice today”
Surely that implies they do not normally look nice?
Say nothing and keep your head down is the best way.
“You look very nice today”
Surely that implies they do not normally look nice?
Say nothing and keep your head down is the best way.
Even “you look nice” could do it in some places. And one needn’t be on intimate terms with someone to say that.
I compliment strangers if I think they look nice, wherever I go. They always cheer up and say I made their day.
I compliment strangers if I think they look nice, wherever I go. They always cheer up and say I made their day.
I wonder how it would play out if a biological woman told a biological man he “looked good in those pants”. I suspect a gay man would enjoy the compliment.
Lost in translation mid-Atlantic I suspect
how about ” You’d look even better out of those pants”?
He probably doesn’t know that outside of North America “pants” are underwear.
Nor would I, but does that mean that women cannot compliment you in a similar vein? Geez, how sad that we have become so PC that a genuine compliment is seen as sexual harassment or a blatant come-on.
I’ve generally found that people appreciate compliments. Even women.
I used to enjoy office banter and flirtations – thank God I’m getting old enough to blame it on the old days.
True.
Nuance goes far in this I think. You could probably say, “I love your pants/trousers,” or even, “You look very nice today” without it being all that controversial. But something about “You look good in those pants” seems to cross a line.
Even “you look nice” could do it in some places. And one needn’t be on intimate terms with someone to say that.
I wonder how it would play out if a biological woman told a biological man he “looked good in those pants”. I suspect a gay man would enjoy the compliment.
Time to embrace the slurs and get the T-shirts printed
I am an “irrelevant has-been lez-bean, a fascist”, a transphobic bigot full of hatred, and a sad, hateful clown and proud of it”.
This
As much as I understand that translesbianism is an obvious hoax, I find it a funny reaction to some misandrist currents of the State religion of feminism.
Misogynistic floodwaters still roar pretty loudly. I see it as more plainly opportunistic than a reaction to whatever eddies of misandry exist.
When I was at college there were plenty of limp-wristed young men who learned that a good way of copping off with a certain type of woman was to pretend to be left-wing, ‘anti-patriarchy’ and feminist, and put on an ‘androgynous’ appearance. It would seem to be that these so-called ‘translesbians’ are simply taking things to the next level. Good luck to them if they get what they are after, as it’s down to the woman to go along with this nonsense or not, surely?
Women are often sexually aroused by money, either that or some beautiful women are genuinely aroused by nonagenarian men and the billions are just a bonus.
Astonishing!
There is an article in Spiked today that includes hoi polloi. The author (Tom Slater) agrees with you as does the French author of a current article on Unherd, but English dictionaries and a writer for the Guardian agree with me. I think you might have started something. I had not heard the phrase (or noticed it) for many, many years before I used it.
Same problem with the Arabic word Alcohol!
Inadvertent duplication.
I guess when a word or phrase is incorporated into another language, it takes on a new meaning. I don’t think hoi polloi has the negative connotations in Greek that it has in English. The French say le brexit.
No it didn’t, but then the English Public School system ‘weaponised’ it, as they also did with “Plebs” and “Oiks”.
There were some benefits to be gained from an expensive ‘Classical’ education!
You were fortunate (one of the lucky ones – sic). You probably received one of the best educations it was possible to receive. Since then it has been downhill. If I could have chosen my education, I would have chosen a traditional English public school education but I have learnt to appreciate my own educational trajectory.
You were fortunate (one of the lucky ones – sic). You probably received one of the best educations it was possible to receive. Since then it has been downhill. If I could have chosen my education, I would have chosen a traditional English public school education but I have learnt to appreciate my own educational trajectory.
No it didn’t, but then the English Public School system ‘weaponised’ it, as they also did with “Plebs” and “Oiks”.
There were some benefits to be gained from an expensive ‘Classical’ education!
I guess when a word or phrase is incorporated into another language, it takes on a new meaning. I don’t think hoi polloi has the negative connotations in Greek that it has in English. The French say le brexit.
Same problem with the Arabic word Alcohol!
Inadvertent duplication.
There is an article in Spiked today that includes hoi polloi. The author (Tom Slater) agrees with you as does the French author of a current article on Unherd, but English dictionaries and a writer for the Guardian agree with me. I think you might have started something. I had not heard the phrase (or noticed it) for many, many years before I used it.
Astonishing!
Women are often sexually aroused by money, either that or some beautiful women are genuinely aroused by nonagenarian men and the billions are just a bonus.
This
Why do you start your response with ‘This’, placed alone on a line? I’ve noticed this occasionally and wonder what it is supposed to portray?
‘ I’ve noticed this occasionally and wonder what it is supposed to portray?’
That. Obviously.
‘That. Obviously.’
Hmmmmm ..
This
Surely you mean –
That
Obviously ?
‘That. Obviously.’
Hmmmmm ..
This
Surely you mean –
That
Obviously ?
‘ I’ve noticed this occasionally and wonder what it is supposed to portray?’
That. Obviously.
Misogynistic floodwaters still roar pretty loudly. I see it as more plainly opportunistic than a reaction to whatever eddies of misandry exist.
When I was at college there were plenty of limp-wristed young men who learned that a good way of copping off with a certain type of woman was to pretend to be left-wing, ‘anti-patriarchy’ and feminist, and put on an ‘androgynous’ appearance. It would seem to be that these so-called ‘translesbians’ are simply taking things to the next level. Good luck to them if they get what they are after, as it’s down to the woman to go along with this nonsense or not, surely?
This
Why do you start your response with ‘This’, placed alone on a line? I’ve noticed this occasionally and wonder what it is supposed to portray?
While I agree with you that feminists are the ones principally responsible for creating this intersectional nightmare and that it’s therefore tempting to let them stew in it, the awkward fact remains that it is affecting all women, not merely those who consider themselves feminists.
We men have little choice but to support the resistance to these terrible, anti-human ideas. And eventually of course, if women do find themselves permanently under the yoke of this baleful ideology, it won’t be long before men are next anyway, so it’s in our interest to help resist it.
How noble of you to join the battle. But of course, as you said, your bottom line is your own safety and well-being.
I agree. We even have to support the freedom of speech of odious people who want to suppress ours. However I genuinely think that men who try and get into this issue will be told to butt out, etc. Women have to own this one and thanks to some very brave pathfinders like JK Rowling and Meghan Murphy they are starting to stand up to it.
How noble of you to join the battle. But of course, as you said, your bottom line is your own safety and well-being.
I agree. We even have to support the freedom of speech of odious people who want to suppress ours. However I genuinely think that men who try and get into this issue will be told to butt out, etc. Women have to own this one and thanks to some very brave pathfinders like JK Rowling and Meghan Murphy they are starting to stand up to it.
…Said by the privileged male. Wake up, you are on the list next.
The question is surly: Why do they? I’ve never forced anyone to sleep with me!
They want their cake and want to eat it – is my only take on this.
Brilliant!! And you are sort of right, this is yet another thing for women to fix. These (mostly male white) clowns masquerading as women are an affront to everything women have fought for. But Peter you miss one thing – those who protest against this weird nonsense are shunned like Amish sluts. Wrong view? Maybe forget your job, just like a man fears #metoo. EVERYONE needs to stand against this very peculiar BS. Frankly I’m not sure what they’re really getting at now… but I’ve heard this is the next step to something far darker… hopefully you know what I’m talking about. Only takes a generation.
Hey look – a man trying to foist his work off on women while claiming to be persecuted by the mere fact that women have rights.
A) That’s right – men have had decades to accept and adjust to the fact that women have rights and don’t actually owe men a single thing. Feminism has been extending the possibility of liberation to men equally as long, trying to help them see the ways that patriarchy creates immense amounts of suffering and injustice for MEN, too, trying to get them to abandon the bankrupt idea of traditional masculinity that severs men from half of their humanity. Unfortunately for men, they can’t put aside their hyper-fragile egos in the short term, no matter what the long term benefits. Women have been quite busy doing the work of our OWN liberation, thank you. We’ll still be here when men are ready to get serious about liberating themselves.
B) When men say things like “You look good in those pants,” what it sounds like to me is “I’ve been staring at your ass and now I want to push you into an interaction with me so that I can do other creepy shit like checking out the front of your body – most likely staring at your tits long enough to get caught – standing too close, touching your arm or back or hair, and just generally getting off on the knowledge that I’m making you uncomfortable.” It’s quite possible that YOU weren’t going to say/do any of those things, and I acknowledge that this isn’t fair. The problem is that when so many OTHER men do that stuff to us, it becomes a matter of SELF DEFENSE/ personal safety to be very wary around men. It’s not a good solution, it doesn’t make men’s or women’s lives better, but only MEN can stop the insane amounts of domestic violence, rape, and even murder that they commit every year in the US. Looky there – more work for you!
I just love how the term “patriarchy” is used uncritically and unquestioningly as though it’s really a thing.
I just love how the term “patriarchy” is used uncritically and unquestioningly as though it’s really a thing.
This “mess” is up to everybody to fix. Including you.
Well said!
Feminism paved the way for this as many of the same tactics teh transactivist are using against women who refuse to bend the knee were being used on men by feminists 10 years earlier. I am NO fan or supporter of this trans non-sense but it does look very much like a kind of karma it’s just sad that innocent women (the non-feminists) are also victims of what it does.
What transactivists are doing currently bears little or no resemblance to the radical feminists of the 1980s or 1990s. They may share some (dubious) philosophical underpinnings but that’s it. For all their bluster, radical feminists and/or lesbians never behaved anything like transactivists of today do. Naturally enough, the TRAs are men.
What transactivists are doing currently bears little or no resemblance to the radical feminists of the 1980s or 1990s. They may share some (dubious) philosophical underpinnings but that’s it. For all their bluster, radical feminists and/or lesbians never behaved anything like transactivists of today do. Naturally enough, the TRAs are men.
“If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants”
To be honest, it would never have occurred to me to say that to anyone, unless we were already on pretty intimate terms.
Time to embrace the slurs and get the T-shirts printed
I am an “irrelevant has-been lez-bean, a fascist”, a transphobic bigot full of hatred, and a sad, hateful clown and proud of it”.
This
As much as I understand that translesbianism is an obvious hoax, I find it a funny reaction to some misandrist currents of the State religion of feminism.
While I agree with you that feminists are the ones principally responsible for creating this intersectional nightmare and that it’s therefore tempting to let them stew in it, the awkward fact remains that it is affecting all women, not merely those who consider themselves feminists.
We men have little choice but to support the resistance to these terrible, anti-human ideas. And eventually of course, if women do find themselves permanently under the yoke of this baleful ideology, it won’t be long before men are next anyway, so it’s in our interest to help resist it.
…Said by the privileged male. Wake up, you are on the list next.
The question is surly: Why do they? I’ve never forced anyone to sleep with me!
They want their cake and want to eat it – is my only take on this.
Brilliant!! And you are sort of right, this is yet another thing for women to fix. These (mostly male white) clowns masquerading as women are an affront to everything women have fought for. But Peter you miss one thing – those who protest against this weird nonsense are shunned like Amish sluts. Wrong view? Maybe forget your job, just like a man fears #metoo. EVERYONE needs to stand against this very peculiar BS. Frankly I’m not sure what they’re really getting at now… but I’ve heard this is the next step to something far darker… hopefully you know what I’m talking about. Only takes a generation.
Hey look – a man trying to foist his work off on women while claiming to be persecuted by the mere fact that women have rights.
A) That’s right – men have had decades to accept and adjust to the fact that women have rights and don’t actually owe men a single thing. Feminism has been extending the possibility of liberation to men equally as long, trying to help them see the ways that patriarchy creates immense amounts of suffering and injustice for MEN, too, trying to get them to abandon the bankrupt idea of traditional masculinity that severs men from half of their humanity. Unfortunately for men, they can’t put aside their hyper-fragile egos in the short term, no matter what the long term benefits. Women have been quite busy doing the work of our OWN liberation, thank you. We’ll still be here when men are ready to get serious about liberating themselves.
B) When men say things like “You look good in those pants,” what it sounds like to me is “I’ve been staring at your ass and now I want to push you into an interaction with me so that I can do other creepy shit like checking out the front of your body – most likely staring at your tits long enough to get caught – standing too close, touching your arm or back or hair, and just generally getting off on the knowledge that I’m making you uncomfortable.” It’s quite possible that YOU weren’t going to say/do any of those things, and I acknowledge that this isn’t fair. The problem is that when so many OTHER men do that stuff to us, it becomes a matter of SELF DEFENSE/ personal safety to be very wary around men. It’s not a good solution, it doesn’t make men’s or women’s lives better, but only MEN can stop the insane amounts of domestic violence, rape, and even murder that they commit every year in the US. Looky there – more work for you!
This “mess” is up to everybody to fix. Including you.
Well said!
Feminism paved the way for this as many of the same tactics teh transactivist are using against women who refuse to bend the knee were being used on men by feminists 10 years earlier. I am NO fan or supporter of this trans non-sense but it does look very much like a kind of karma it’s just sad that innocent women (the non-feminists) are also victims of what it does.
All I can say is that this mess is up to women to fix. You have been ferocious towards any men who transgress feminist rules for the last 40 years – I find it amazing that you are putting up with this BS. If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants” I could possibly be put out of my job. However if I put on lipstick and a wig and leered at women trying to change at the local swimming pool – they would be kicked out for complaining about it.
I find myself experiencing a form of LGBTQ+ (or whatever it is now) and race issues fatigue. Who are all those people so concerned with whether their stances, private thoughts or indeed sexual preferences are anyone’s business but their own?
Indeed. We have indulged them for long enough.
Quite so.
How do you plan to stop indulging them? Our venerable institutions have the initiative there. They urge us all to join them in admiration (mere tolerance won’t do) for just about every type of sexual deviant.
“Night follows day’”.
Laugh at them and ignore them….
How do you laugh at someone and ignore them at the same time?
Anyway, will they ignore you? Activists have little patience with those who fail to be persuaded by the rightness of their cause. Remember that “Silence is Violence” trope.
THat’s all very well, but it’s hard to ignore them when they are in one’s changing room with their tackle out. Or adjusting their todger in the queue for the ladies at St Pancras, as Eddie Izzard was caught doing this week.
Oh no not Eddie!!!! What happened? He was my favorite stand-up comic.
He joined the Labour Party.
These days I think he prefers to do his business sitting-down.
He joined the Labour Party.
These days I think he prefers to do his business sitting-down.
Oh no not Eddie!!!! What happened? He was my favorite stand-up comic.
How do you laugh at someone and ignore them at the same time?
Anyway, will they ignore you? Activists have little patience with those who fail to be persuaded by the rightness of their cause. Remember that “Silence is Violence” trope.
THat’s all very well, but it’s hard to ignore them when they are in one’s changing room with their tackle out. Or adjusting their todger in the queue for the ladies at St Pancras, as Eddie Izzard was caught doing this week.
“Night follows day’”.
Laugh at them and ignore them….
Quite so.
How do you plan to stop indulging them? Our venerable institutions have the initiative there. They urge us all to join them in admiration (mere tolerance won’t do) for just about every type of sexual deviant.
The weird thing is that the whole LGBT+ group only make up 1-2% of the population. Yet stories about them take up 50% of the new agenda.
Yes very weird indeed.
I have no objection to Gomorrahites or whatever they are now called, we have moved on a bit since the days of David Maxwell Fyfe, but this obsession is completely disproportionate. Where will it end?
Interest in my own sexuality, let alone anyone else’s, takes up very little of my time as there are so many other competing interests to occupy the mind and the time.
Maybe because you’re no spring chicken, nevertheless, it’s a compelling issue because Unherd keeps writing about it knowing we’ll bite.
Maybe because you’re no spring chicken, nevertheless, it’s a compelling issue because Unherd keeps writing about it knowing we’ll bite.
This is an example of the Spiral of Silence Theory by Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann in action. Those who make the most noise not only get all the attention, but they also make the majority believe that they are in the minority and cow them into silence.
We no longer have a middle class who can say ” What utter drivel “.
Love it! I said exactly that on the article on “what was there to hide….” – was tempted on this one but you’ve done it for me Still a fan of Unheard though.
Love it! I said exactly that on the article on “what was there to hide….” – was tempted on this one but you’ve done it for me Still a fan of Unheard though.
Or “empty barrels make the most noise”. It would seem from what I’m learning from print and documentaries that there are different kinds of players in the game, those that are genuine and those that are jumping on the band wagon,the latter making it difficult for those who aren’t playing a game.Yet another category of the sincere is shown in the netflix documentary “Intersext”– the hermaphrodites.
We no longer have a middle class who can say ” What utter drivel “.
Or “empty barrels make the most noise”. It would seem from what I’m learning from print and documentaries that there are different kinds of players in the game, those that are genuine and those that are jumping on the band wagon,the latter making it difficult for those who aren’t playing a game.Yet another category of the sincere is shown in the netflix documentary “Intersext”– the hermaphrodites.
Exactly, it feels like a sunami even though it’s only a first world tidal wave, so far.
Indeed. Who benefits from keeping the people preoccupied with these hyped up ‘culture wars’? The pundits, the commentators, the race baiters, grievance seekers or the mushroomed mental health industry? Or is it simply that this is what sells at the moment?
“what sells”, yes. Follow the big money in the world of pharm and tech medicine.
“what sells”, yes. Follow the big money in the world of pharm and tech medicine.
There is no such thing as the “LGBT group”. The Ts are a separate group, and also the dominant group with laws having been passed in their favour and many T movers and shakers in places of power.
And characters in soap operas can’t be far off that %.
Yes very weird indeed.
I have no objection to Gomorrahites or whatever they are now called, we have moved on a bit since the days of David Maxwell Fyfe, but this obsession is completely disproportionate. Where will it end?
Interest in my own sexuality, let alone anyone else’s, takes up very little of my time as there are so many other competing interests to occupy the mind and the time.
This is an example of the Spiral of Silence Theory by Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann in action. Those who make the most noise not only get all the attention, but they also make the majority believe that they are in the minority and cow them into silence.
Exactly, it feels like a sunami even though it’s only a first world tidal wave, so far.
Indeed. Who benefits from keeping the people preoccupied with these hyped up ‘culture wars’? The pundits, the commentators, the race baiters, grievance seekers or the mushroomed mental health industry? Or is it simply that this is what sells at the moment?
There is no such thing as the “LGBT group”. The Ts are a separate group, and also the dominant group with laws having been passed in their favour and many T movers and shakers in places of power.
And characters in soap operas can’t be far off that %.
Look under the mask – they’re all Puritans. They’re back again, wearing new secular clothes, still grim-faced, still joyless, still hectoring anyone within range.
Neo-puritans: as delightful as all the other ‘neos’ – liberal;/marxist/fascist. Perhaps the OED should add another definition of ‘neo’, as meaning ‘crap’.
I suppose the definition of Puritan works quite well for them. After all, the Puritans were known for being intolerant, belligerent, fanatical, and utterly convinced of their own righteousness. I have always been convinced that Puritanism survived on many levels in the US, and not surprisingly this radical mindset thrives on the West Coast. I posit that just like the originals Pilgrims and Puritans went westward and crossed the Atlantic, because they did not/could not to fit into mainstream English society, their descendants moved farther west until they eventually ran out of land. Old electoral maps show that the states along the West Coast along with New England, the cradle of Puritanism, voted Republican, which at the time was the part of liberalism whereas the South was in the hands of conservative Democrats. The ideological switch did not happen until the late 1940s. I am convinced that there is connection between “progressivism” and Puritanism, and that the former are direct descendants of the latter.
I disagree.
Very interesting idea this, I would live to see some proper research done into it. It had never occurred to me why US progressives are based so overwhelmingly on both coasts.
Hunter S Thompson had a theory about why Hell’s Angels originated in California: as the frontier moved westward across North America, the PWT descendants of the jailbirds sent to colonize GA followed, a generation behind; eventually their descendants all end up in Orange Co CA. Explains Hell’s Angels, also the various eccentric religions from the region and Nixon into the bargain. (Maybe Oz too? Alas not the Right Coast. But maybe there is some sort of centrifuge effect – whether or not HST got the correct centrifuge.)
Hunter S Thompson had a theory about why Hell’s Angels originated in California: as the frontier moved westward across North America, the PWT descendants of the jailbirds sent to colonize GA followed, a generation behind; eventually their descendants all end up in Orange Co CA. Explains Hell’s Angels, also the various eccentric religions from the region and Nixon into the bargain. (Maybe Oz too? Alas not the Right Coast. But maybe there is some sort of centrifuge effect – whether or not HST got the correct centrifuge.)
I disagree.
Very interesting idea this, I would live to see some proper research done into it. It had never occurred to me why US progressives are based so overwhelmingly on both coasts.
Hmm. Puritans who support MAP?
Neo-puritans: as delightful as all the other ‘neos’ – liberal;/marxist/fascist. Perhaps the OED should add another definition of ‘neo’, as meaning ‘crap’.
I suppose the definition of Puritan works quite well for them. After all, the Puritans were known for being intolerant, belligerent, fanatical, and utterly convinced of their own righteousness. I have always been convinced that Puritanism survived on many levels in the US, and not surprisingly this radical mindset thrives on the West Coast. I posit that just like the originals Pilgrims and Puritans went westward and crossed the Atlantic, because they did not/could not to fit into mainstream English society, their descendants moved farther west until they eventually ran out of land. Old electoral maps show that the states along the West Coast along with New England, the cradle of Puritanism, voted Republican, which at the time was the part of liberalism whereas the South was in the hands of conservative Democrats. The ideological switch did not happen until the late 1940s. I am convinced that there is connection between “progressivism” and Puritanism, and that the former are direct descendants of the latter.
Hmm. Puritans who support MAP?
Watch out! The diesel dykes will come round and tear your encyclopaedias in half….
An LGB etc organization is trying to get Fox News banned in Canada by our regulator for being anti-trans. Of course the regulator is taking the request seriously. I too am exhausted with the never ending push by these groups. It has certainly backfired with me – and I suspect others. I used to be very positive to all this – now my response is “$$&!( off and leave me alone.”
Will the Canadian government set up jamming devices if the request is granted? Most of the population of Canada lives within the reach of American Fox News stations.
Will the Canadian government set up jamming devices if the request is granted? Most of the population of Canada lives within the reach of American Fox News stations.
It’s worth bearing in mind that lots of LGB have no time for the TQ+ people, and are more fed up with them than the rest of us, particularly as they fear this will end up in a backlash against them all.
Exactly, so true.
Yes, backlash indeed. In Tasmania lesbians are not allowed to advertise an event as “female only”. The only way they can meet is by way of clandestine organisation.
Exactly, so true.
Yes, backlash indeed. In Tasmania lesbians are not allowed to advertise an event as “female only”. The only way they can meet is by way of clandestine organisation.
Those people are called narcissists.
Because it doesn’t end with them. It’s overflowed into mainstream culture via pronouns and toilets. As a liberal I find the pronoun issue annoying and I haven’t had to encounter the toilet issue yet but don’t look forward to it.
I’ve started addressing them as “you people”.
We are all suffering that fatigue. And yet as of today (7/4/23) 214 people have ploughed through the article and a waste of irritable comments, and still have the energy (and interest) to upvote your comment (I expect this comment counts as 215).
If we were really worried about the societal issues, we would be writing to our MPs or taking to the streets, instead of clucking on to our fellow Unherders and ruffling our feathers in semi-public. Odd, isn’t it?
Indeed. We have indulged them for long enough.
The weird thing is that the whole LGBT+ group only make up 1-2% of the population. Yet stories about them take up 50% of the new agenda.
Look under the mask – they’re all Puritans. They’re back again, wearing new secular clothes, still grim-faced, still joyless, still hectoring anyone within range.
Watch out! The diesel dykes will come round and tear your encyclopaedias in half….
An LGB etc organization is trying to get Fox News banned in Canada by our regulator for being anti-trans. Of course the regulator is taking the request seriously. I too am exhausted with the never ending push by these groups. It has certainly backfired with me – and I suspect others. I used to be very positive to all this – now my response is “$$&!( off and leave me alone.”
It’s worth bearing in mind that lots of LGB have no time for the TQ+ people, and are more fed up with them than the rest of us, particularly as they fear this will end up in a backlash against them all.
Those people are called narcissists.
Because it doesn’t end with them. It’s overflowed into mainstream culture via pronouns and toilets. As a liberal I find the pronoun issue annoying and I haven’t had to encounter the toilet issue yet but don’t look forward to it.
I’ve started addressing them as “you people”.
We are all suffering that fatigue. And yet as of today (7/4/23) 214 people have ploughed through the article and a waste of irritable comments, and still have the energy (and interest) to upvote your comment (I expect this comment counts as 215).
If we were really worried about the societal issues, we would be writing to our MPs or taking to the streets, instead of clucking on to our fellow Unherders and ruffling our feathers in semi-public. Odd, isn’t it?
I find myself experiencing a form of LGBTQ+ (or whatever it is now) and race issues fatigue. Who are all those people so concerned with whether their stances, private thoughts or indeed sexual preferences are anyone’s business but their own?
“if a male identifies as a woman and is also attracted to women, he counts as a “trans lesbian””…
So transwomen are trans lesbians (as opposed to heterosexual males)?
I think someone should brief Starmer. He’ll want to keep up.
They should, since i can’t imagine anyone (male or female) wanting to debrief him.
K-TOOSH
Me neither
K-TOOSH
Me neither
I would like to know if a trans lesbian can be attracted to another trans lesbian or only to bog standard ones.
I think we all know the answer to that one.
In the real world, that would make them gay men with a dressing up fetish….
Yes they can. I’ve seen this happen.
Definitely they like young women . There is a popular genre of Lesbian porn watched by men mainly . Could this be partly to blame ? Having read Robyn Exton’s diatribe against Terfs I am willing to bet it wasn’t penned by her . She may be a front for the site aiming to attract a few real young lesbian women to service the men .
I read a comment once by a lesbian whose trans woman friend asked to be fixed up with one of her friends. So the lesbian arranged a date for him with one of her friends who was also a trans women. The friend who asked for the fix-up was really annoyed, and acted like he’d been slapped in the face.
Trans women do have a problem, because transitioning doesn’t change their sexual orientation (towards women). But most straight women are turned off when they find that a suitor is (much) more attracted to himself than to her. So in claiming lesbian status, and attempting to gaslight lesbians, trans women are trying to lay claim to a group of women who will accept them as bed mates. But an intimate relationship (in and out of bed) between an AGP male and a women is nothing like an intimate relationship between two same-sex attracted women. Shannon Thrace’s “18 months” is very enlightening on this point.
I think we all know the answer to that one.
In the real world, that would make them gay men with a dressing up fetish….
Yes they can. I’ve seen this happen.
Definitely they like young women . There is a popular genre of Lesbian porn watched by men mainly . Could this be partly to blame ? Having read Robyn Exton’s diatribe against Terfs I am willing to bet it wasn’t penned by her . She may be a front for the site aiming to attract a few real young lesbian women to service the men .
I read a comment once by a lesbian whose trans woman friend asked to be fixed up with one of her friends. So the lesbian arranged a date for him with one of her friends who was also a trans women. The friend who asked for the fix-up was really annoyed, and acted like he’d been slapped in the face.
Trans women do have a problem, because transitioning doesn’t change their sexual orientation (towards women). But most straight women are turned off when they find that a suitor is (much) more attracted to himself than to her. So in claiming lesbian status, and attempting to gaslight lesbians, trans women are trying to lay claim to a group of women who will accept them as bed mates. But an intimate relationship (in and out of bed) between an AGP male and a women is nothing like an intimate relationship between two same-sex attracted women. Shannon Thrace’s “18 months” is very enlightening on this point.
“So transwomen are trans lesbians (as opposed to heterosexual males)?”
“if a trans lesbian can be attracted to another trans lesbian or only to bog standard ones.”
My head hurts.
Funny but true.
Funny but true.
It feels mathematically like it should just all cancel out somehow.
Who among us can keep up?!!
They should, since i can’t imagine anyone (male or female) wanting to debrief him.
I would like to know if a trans lesbian can be attracted to another trans lesbian or only to bog standard ones.
“So transwomen are trans lesbians (as opposed to heterosexual males)?”
“if a trans lesbian can be attracted to another trans lesbian or only to bog standard ones.”
My head hurts.
It feels mathematically like it should just all cancel out somehow.
Who among us can keep up?!!
“if a male identifies as a woman and is also attracted to women, he counts as a “trans lesbian””…
So transwomen are trans lesbians (as opposed to heterosexual males)?
I think someone should brief Starmer. He’ll want to keep up.
If you have sex with someone as a political act, then quite frankly, you deserve what you get.
Thank you for making me laugh. I couldn’t agree more!
Coorrrrrr! Look at the manifesto on THAT!
Much the same as doing so as a stage act, I suppose…
Thank you for making me laugh. I couldn’t agree more!
Coorrrrrr! Look at the manifesto on THAT!
Much the same as doing so as a stage act, I suppose…
If you have sex with someone as a political act, then quite frankly, you deserve what you get.
It’s pretty striking that lesbian app founder Robyn Exton would chastise lesbians for being interested in dating only women.
As a straight man, I have no discomfort in saying that I am uninterested in a “woman” with a p***s. A man with gender dysphoria is not women in my book, nor in my bed.
Perhaps all those lesbians who so offend Exton will take up her offer and delete her app.
I think it’s hilarious that people seem to think that being a lesbian is about being attracted to people who dress like women! I’d be interested to know what the dressing as women ratio actually is in the lesbian community. All these years I thought being gay was about same s e x attraction, not same clothing attraction.
So if you are only attracted to the “butch” lesbians, does that mean you’re a bigot too? This is sexual apartheid really.
They are not women because they wear women’s clothes , but because they have female souls . Supposedly
So if you are only attracted to the “butch” lesbians, does that mean you’re a bigot too? This is sexual apartheid really.
They are not women because they wear women’s clothes , but because they have female souls . Supposedly
Yep, and it’s interesting that it’s lesbians rather than straight men who are being guilt tripped into accepting partners with penises. Doesn’t seem to be any comparable pressure on straight geezers to be so “open minded”.
They are already cancelled. It is an app for trans onliy.
I bet they have to have a proportion of real women lesbians on the App to attract the female impersonators .
I bet they have to have a proportion of real women lesbians on the App to attract the female impersonators .
I think it’s hilarious that people seem to think that being a lesbian is about being attracted to people who dress like women! I’d be interested to know what the dressing as women ratio actually is in the lesbian community. All these years I thought being gay was about same s e x attraction, not same clothing attraction.
Yep, and it’s interesting that it’s lesbians rather than straight men who are being guilt tripped into accepting partners with penises. Doesn’t seem to be any comparable pressure on straight geezers to be so “open minded”.
They are already cancelled. It is an app for trans onliy.
It’s pretty striking that lesbian app founder Robyn Exton would chastise lesbians for being interested in dating only women.
As a straight man, I have no discomfort in saying that I am uninterested in a “woman” with a p***s. A man with gender dysphoria is not women in my book, nor in my bed.
Perhaps all those lesbians who so offend Exton will take up her offer and delete her app.
If ever there was an example of rabid political ideology coming full circle on to itself this is it… Can you imagine 20 years ago saying to these activists “you can Will yourself to not be lesbian and prefer men for the good of society”… What can be said….
Well said! It really is coming full circle.
Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979) was meant to be a send-up, not a prophesy.
Frankly, it all reminds me of Monty Python’s “The Life of Brian” and the character of Stan aka “Loretta”.
Trans affirmation is just conversion therapy rebranded
Well said! It really is coming full circle.
Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979) was meant to be a send-up, not a prophesy.
Frankly, it all reminds me of Monty Python’s “The Life of Brian” and the character of Stan aka “Loretta”.
Trans affirmation is just conversion therapy rebranded
If ever there was an example of rabid political ideology coming full circle on to itself this is it… Can you imagine 20 years ago saying to these activists “you can Will yourself to not be lesbian and prefer men for the good of society”… What can be said….
Astonishing to read an article of this length rebutting an argument that is so clearly bollix that it demands no consideration at all.
The answer when someone tells you the moon is made of cheese is “no, it isn’t”. It really doesn’t require a dissertation.
You’d think. But it’s necessary because our institutions are in fact legalising this bollix in every corner of society.
That would be absolutely true were it not for the fact that the crazies are the loudest and the most determined and so influence actual policy in government, is corporations, in universities and in the media.
While the rest of us are scoffing at the stupidity, they are protesting, canceling, acting violently and succeeding at getting laws, policies and rules changed that impact us all.
This was what people said 50 years ago about gay marriage. Wake up! There’s a sea change of ideological priorities going on around us. Either go with it wherever it takes us, or stand athwart history yelling ‘stop!’
It seems an appropriate slide towards the end of civilization.
It seems an appropriate slide towards the end of civilization.
About halfway down I was like, “Why am I still reading this? Why is she still typing after the first paragraph?” That a “trans woman” (a man who still has his kit) must be accepted as a true lesbian is the final nail in the coffin of trans absurdity. Look, it’s not that the BBC, Canada, the Democrat Party and all other leftist media have swallowed this. I get it. They are all part of the global transhumanist agenda.
Folks – it’s garbage! You don’t have to go along! Get cancelled. Get imprisoned. It doesn’t matter that they dox you, cover your home in graffiti and destroy your online presence. If the small boy in the Emperor’s New Clothes fable could speak out, so can you.
Amen
The kit is not the point. It’s that a man is male.
Amen
The kit is not the point. It’s that a man is male.
You’d think. But it’s the seriousness with which all this manifest lunacy is being taken by every institution from the RAF to the Chucth of England to the High Street Banks to the schools and Unis.
It’s no coincidence that this crock of dog’s droppings f a new religion appeared out of nowhere in the aftermath of Occuoy Wall Street. Big Corporate money is behind the whole thing. The idea is to divide the public and distract, derange and discredit a Left wing that USED to actually have some interest in economic equality and a healthy society, rather than ‘intersectional’ bullshot like this.
Exactly, but writers have to make money and a bit of sensationalism sells.
You’d think. But it’s necessary because our institutions are in fact legalising this bollix in every corner of society.
That would be absolutely true were it not for the fact that the crazies are the loudest and the most determined and so influence actual policy in government, is corporations, in universities and in the media.
While the rest of us are scoffing at the stupidity, they are protesting, canceling, acting violently and succeeding at getting laws, policies and rules changed that impact us all.
This was what people said 50 years ago about gay marriage. Wake up! There’s a sea change of ideological priorities going on around us. Either go with it wherever it takes us, or stand athwart history yelling ‘stop!’
About halfway down I was like, “Why am I still reading this? Why is she still typing after the first paragraph?” That a “trans woman” (a man who still has his kit) must be accepted as a true lesbian is the final nail in the coffin of trans absurdity. Look, it’s not that the BBC, Canada, the Democrat Party and all other leftist media have swallowed this. I get it. They are all part of the global transhumanist agenda.
Folks – it’s garbage! You don’t have to go along! Get cancelled. Get imprisoned. It doesn’t matter that they dox you, cover your home in graffiti and destroy your online presence. If the small boy in the Emperor’s New Clothes fable could speak out, so can you.
You’d think. But it’s the seriousness with which all this manifest lunacy is being taken by every institution from the RAF to the Chucth of England to the High Street Banks to the schools and Unis.
It’s no coincidence that this crock of dog’s droppings f a new religion appeared out of nowhere in the aftermath of Occuoy Wall Street. Big Corporate money is behind the whole thing. The idea is to divide the public and distract, derange and discredit a Left wing that USED to actually have some interest in economic equality and a healthy society, rather than ‘intersectional’ bullshot like this.
Exactly, but writers have to make money and a bit of sensationalism sells.
Astonishing to read an article of this length rebutting an argument that is so clearly bollix that it demands no consideration at all.
The answer when someone tells you the moon is made of cheese is “no, it isn’t”. It really doesn’t require a dissertation.
It might interest you to know that in Australia, a woman called Sall Grover started a lesbian dating app called Giggle. She used an algorithm that rejected males from joining (by their profile photos). One such rejected male is suing her through the courts for discrimination, on the grounds that he is a trans woman lesbian. His surname is Tickle, and the court case is therefore Tickle v Giggle.
I’m not making this up.
Hilarious!!
Hilarious!!
It might interest you to know that in Australia, a woman called Sall Grover started a lesbian dating app called Giggle. She used an algorithm that rejected males from joining (by their profile photos). One such rejected male is suing her through the courts for discrimination, on the grounds that he is a trans woman lesbian. His surname is Tickle, and the court case is therefore Tickle v Giggle.
I’m not making this up.
I have been a high school teacher for 25 years and I have never experienced the sheer number of those identifying on the LGBQT+ spectrum as I have in the past three years. Please explain to me how this is NOT a social contagion?
Ditto. Social worker for more than a decade. Never had a trans child on a caseload until this year. Now I have two, on a caseload of 15.
Wow!!
Wow!!
No one really knows what it is.
Ditto. Social worker for more than a decade. Never had a trans child on a caseload until this year. Now I have two, on a caseload of 15.
No one really knows what it is.
I have been a high school teacher for 25 years and I have never experienced the sheer number of those identifying on the LGBQT+ spectrum as I have in the past three years. Please explain to me how this is NOT a social contagion?
“…some lesbians will end up in bed with males. But they won’t like it.”
Why should anyone sleep with anyone unless they want to? I find 99.9% of people that I meet to be unattractive, irrespective of gender, pretended gender, or sexual orientation and so I refuse to accept their advances.
Works for me. Maybe I possess self-confidence.
Another version of Alan Partridge: ‘I don’t find them attractive, it’s just confusing’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNzLBTCEDI
Me too once – now I am too old for them to be interested, I think.
Is this the “me too”movement?
Well yes, same here!
I am sure that you were a cracker in your time.
Is this the “me too”movement?
Well yes, same here!
I am sure that you were a cracker in your time.
So are you saying that you’re so hot that you get bothered by 99.9% of the population who are eager to bang you?!
Chew that bitter cud of envy, Clare.
Chew that bitter cud of envy, Clare.
Quite right. (And since 99.9% of people who meet me find me s*xually unattractive, everyone goes home happy!)
Exactly!
Exactly!
Maybe you’re not a teenage girl growing up online.
Another version of Alan Partridge: ‘I don’t find them attractive, it’s just confusing’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNzLBTCEDI
Me too once – now I am too old for them to be interested, I think.
So are you saying that you’re so hot that you get bothered by 99.9% of the population who are eager to bang you?!
Quite right. (And since 99.9% of people who meet me find me s*xually unattractive, everyone goes home happy!)
Maybe you’re not a teenage girl growing up online.
“…some lesbians will end up in bed with males. But they won’t like it.”
Why should anyone sleep with anyone unless they want to? I find 99.9% of people that I meet to be unattractive, irrespective of gender, pretended gender, or sexual orientation and so I refuse to accept their advances.
Works for me. Maybe I possess self-confidence.
Saturn has put on a dress and is eating up their children.
Saturn has put on a dress and is eating up their children.
I had an image of a beautiful woman telling a crowd of keen young men that she is only into women, where upon each member steps forward, one by one, to proclaim, ‘I Am Lesbian!”. (Apologies to Spartacus).
Cowboy walks into a bar, hits on a woman, she tell him she’s lesbian; he asks what’s a lesbian? She explains. He says: I guess I’m a lesbian too.
Cowboy walks into a bar, hits on a woman, she tell him she’s lesbian; he asks what’s a lesbian? She explains. He says: I guess I’m a lesbian too.
I had an image of a beautiful woman telling a crowd of keen young men that she is only into women, where upon each member steps forward, one by one, to proclaim, ‘I Am Lesbian!”. (Apologies to Spartacus).
I always wanted to be a lesbian, however I was born a straight male. Does this mean things are looking up for me?
Sorry to disappoint you, Nic, but real lesbians do not look anything like the ones in the HSBC ads.
Sorry to disappoint you, Nic, but real lesbians do not look anything like the ones in the HSBC ads.
I always wanted to be a lesbian, however I was born a straight male. Does this mean things are looking up for me?
This is all so obviously a contagious mental health epidemic. And it will continue for as long as it is treated respectfully. We would not for a moment take seriously herds of people dressing up in old military uniforms and claiming to be Napoleon. How is it we have become so passive and compliant that we tolerate this delusional illness like it’s human right of some sort? These folks are nuts. Don’t celebrate them, and for heaven’s sake keep them away from our kids.
This is all so obviously a contagious mental health epidemic. And it will continue for as long as it is treated respectfully. We would not for a moment take seriously herds of people dressing up in old military uniforms and claiming to be Napoleon. How is it we have become so passive and compliant that we tolerate this delusional illness like it’s human right of some sort? These folks are nuts. Don’t celebrate them, and for heaven’s sake keep them away from our kids.
Humpty Dumpty has fallen and cannot be put together again.
Political Lesbianism and Commercial Lesbianism colluding won’t fix Humpty either. It seems that sexual identity activists cannot force themselves to let people be people.
Humpty Dumpty has fallen and cannot be put together again.
Political Lesbianism and Commercial Lesbianism colluding won’t fix Humpty either. It seems that sexual identity activists cannot force themselves to let people be people.
If you are a western lesbian; I have no doubt that this article really hits home – same sex attraction shouldn’t need explaining twice, but some men can’t take no for an answer i guess.
Thanks for shedding your wonderful light on this issue K, keep em coming!
This article is not about men taking no for an answer, its about edgy lesbians convincing straight women to be lesbians and telling other biological lesbians that rejecting a man who identifies as a lesbian is wrong.
Do not blame men for this BS. This is the fruit of the bizarre logic that has come from women’s desire to be freed from their perceived biological constraints.
You want to go back to the root? Start with the 2nd wave feminist insistence that the only differences between men and women were biological, that the rest is just social construct. They fought tooth and nail, screamed and yelled that this was so. So, in fact, if you can separate the biological from the emotional and mental makeup that is a result of the social construct everyone can be completely the same and equal. The whole gender ideology is built on that. Hence the reason that so many of these people are also socialists or communists, they believe in perfect, absolute equality. What you are seeing here is just one more extension of that.
One could argue that 2nd wave feminism went off the rails and instead of trying to enable women to live their best possible lives as women, that they should instead be more like the stereotypes of what women think men are. Even the pill was less celebrated as a means of family planning and more for the idea that women could, in their minds, have sex the way men did, in their minds that meant sex without consequences. Only, there are always consequences, there have ALWAYS been consequences for men who behaved that way, women just did not see them.
(As a side note, most women have NO clue what men are really like and have no real interest in understanding us. God forbid any man make stereotypical comments about a woman but they are free to make them about us at any time.)
The fundamental flaw was the failure to acknowledge that at the mean of the distributions of men and women, men and women are NOT the same, not physically, not mentally and not emotionally. Rather than trying to say that they are the same, we should have recognized those differences and figured out how to empower people to live their best lives, lives that emphasize their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses. Men and women are best when they are a team. My fiance is better at certain things than I am and vice versa. Some people would argue those things are cliches but cliches, like steriotypes and myths generally have some seed of truth. As my kids put it, she is better at the “mom things” than I am, even though I make an effort. She is better at converting a house into a home but I am better at creating the bones and structure of the house she converts, but damn she can paint and she can lay deck boards. I make a lot more money but I work 6 days a week and have spent years at a time working 60-80 hr weeks. She takes care of people for a living and would never voluntarily work any job that was not 9-5 M-F because she wants to be with her daughters, her friends and her mother. She has specifically said that she would not want a promotion because she would not want the stress regardless of the money.
Our biology effects our psychology, effects our emotional makeup and so our choices. One perfect example. Men will marry over and down the educational and socioeconomic ladder. Women, marry over and up. A male surgeon will date and marry the receptionist at the auto dealer. A female surgeon will hold out for a venture capitalist. Why is this? Women husband resources and see husbands as resources. Men are more interested in beauty/health, character and temperament than in what financial resources a woman can bring to a relationship. There is a lot of solid science on that.
Distributions have tails and the people on those tails deserve the opportunity to live their best lives and to be free to go where their talents and desires lead them. Whether that is woman who wants to be a CEO of a tech firm or a man that wants to be a homemaker taking care of kids and a household. But the vast majority of us sit somewhere in the middle of the distribution. The tails however have been running the show and making everyone miserable.
“Do not blame men for this BS.“
Not even the ones in dresses that think lesbians should accept them as lesbians and date them?
Call me cynical, but I suspect the owner of the app is a trans woman and not simply an edgy lesbian, unless edgy lesbian is the new wording for lesbian with a p e n I s.
Valid point. They are definately a contributing factor.
And, that is a good question about the app owner. Wonder if anyone has made an effort to find out.
I made the effort to look into dear Robyn’s biography, and she is indeed a woman. She claims to be bisexual, and started the app, because she was looking for a girlfriend. From what I have read, she is a very bizarre person, and not one with whom I would want to spend any amount of time.
I made the effort to look into dear Robyn’s biography, and she is indeed a woman. She claims to be bisexual, and started the app, because she was looking for a girlfriend. From what I have read, she is a very bizarre person, and not one with whom I would want to spend any amount of time.
It’s hard to be certain from the photograph but I think Robyn Exton is a real woman but she could just be fronting the app for a transwoman or group of trans women.
Valid point. They are definately a contributing factor.
And, that is a good question about the app owner. Wonder if anyone has made an effort to find out.
It’s hard to be certain from the photograph but I think Robyn Exton is a real woman but she could just be fronting the app for a transwoman or group of trans women.
There are differences between men and women. Even “2nd wave feminists” know this. But levelling the playing field for women is always going to benefit society in general. Why? Not all women can have or want to have children. Some are happy to work 60 hour weeks and to do “man” work. Being born to like only other women – biological women- is not a choice. It is what you are. Just like some people like same sex and opposite sex people. But never should any person force themselves on anyone else then demand respect for doing so. That is what is happening to very many women who will never date a man and very few people take it seriously. In my book, that takes us right back to the early 1920s when my gran and her sisters fought for levelling the playing field, fie example, having a bank account without their fathers, brothers or husbands standing for them. My great aunt fought to be able to have a same sex relationship and won. These women need to be celebrated as do the ones that continue the fight for equity.
Screw equity. But I will fight like hell for every human being to have an equal opportunity to live their best life as they choose and their talents allow.
Equity is a fantasy that is the purest definition of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
‘My great aunt fought to be able to have a same sex relationship and won’. Lesbianism was never illegal.
Perhaps she was a man !
True.
Maybe she had to fight a rival lesbian for a woman they both wanted to date
Perhaps she was a man !
True.
Maybe she had to fight a rival lesbian for a woman they both wanted to date
Just because you fight for something doesn’t necessarily make it good.
I gave you a thumbs up for the general sentiment expressed in your comment, but I vehemently disagree with the concept of equity. There is no equity in life! We are all born with different physical and mental abilities, skills, and talents. You don’t see/hear me throwing a tantrum because I don’t have the musical genius of a Mozart. It is what it is, and I accept that.
Screw equity. But I will fight like hell for every human being to have an equal opportunity to live their best life as they choose and their talents allow.
Equity is a fantasy that is the purest definition of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
‘My great aunt fought to be able to have a same sex relationship and won’. Lesbianism was never illegal.
Just because you fight for something doesn’t necessarily make it good.
I gave you a thumbs up for the general sentiment expressed in your comment, but I vehemently disagree with the concept of equity. There is no equity in life! We are all born with different physical and mental abilities, skills, and talents. You don’t see/hear me throwing a tantrum because I don’t have the musical genius of a Mozart. It is what it is, and I accept that.
I agree with much of this.
Perhaps the most painful and/or funny and/or ironic thing about Miss Stock’s essays these days is how blind she is to the role that her worldview (as a feminist and lesbian) has played in creating the trans-mania that she now objects to. The sexual revolutionaries originally wanted to be free from the weighty implications of sex, and to be free from the burdens of gender. They thought of this primarily in terms of child-birthing and child-rearing.
But now we see that the revolution cannot be contained and will not stop there. If we’re to be free of the inherent reproductive differences between men and women, why not ignore other inconvenient differences, too? As I asked in a recent (much disliked) comment… if it should be illegal to distinguish between men and women when hiring nurses and policemen, why should it be legal to distinguish between them when staffing your athletics team?
The response you typically get is simply one that hasn’t fully thought through its own implications. “But, being a policeman or nurse has nothing to do with gender, but being a swimmer or runner does.” Let’s play a Rawls-ian Veil of Ignorance game with that one… if you are being violently attacked and call for a policeman to come help you, but could know nothing about the attending policeman other than his or her gender, would you prefer it be a man or a woman? Or if you are in pain in a hospital room and call for a nurse to come help you, but could know nothing about the attending nurse other than his or her gender, would you prefer it be a man or a woman? Across human history, if you needed a hug, were you more likely to turn to your mother or your father? How ludicrous the sexual revolutionaries are, to pretend these basic facts of human existence could be wished away.
Men dying on a battlefield do not cry for their dads.
There is a REASON why Mother’s Day is one of the top 2 holidays celebrated and Father’s Day does not even crack the top 15.
Again, at the median of the distribution, men and women are different enough that it matters a lot. But rather than fight that fact, we should be figuring out how to harness the benefits that each bring to work, home and society generally.
Its not a Boolean thing. Men have female traits and vice versa. It is a question of degree and those degrees make a difference. Just as the difference between water and ice is the difference between 32 and 34 degrees of temperature. Small differences can have large impacts.
Kathleen Stock is not a radical feminist nor has she ever claimed to be. Her philosophy career never even touched on women’s issues until the trans contagion took off and piqued her interest.
Have you read her book Material Girls? It’s a pretty sober dissection of gender ideology using philosophical arguments. It’s not a feminist analysis of the issue so why in the world are you claiming that “her worldview” is responsible for gender theory?
I would be happy to know more about her and her beliefs – indeed I am intrigued by the possibility of a non-feminist lesbian, and what such a person might look like.
That said, if she believes there’s nothing wrong with living in a sexual relationship with another woman, then she is participating in some significant way in the sexual revolution to which I refer.
I would be happy to know more about her and her beliefs – indeed I am intrigued by the possibility of a non-feminist lesbian, and what such a person might look like.
That said, if she believes there’s nothing wrong with living in a sexual relationship with another woman, then she is participating in some significant way in the sexual revolution to which I refer.
Men dying on a battlefield do not cry for their dads.
There is a REASON why Mother’s Day is one of the top 2 holidays celebrated and Father’s Day does not even crack the top 15.
Again, at the median of the distribution, men and women are different enough that it matters a lot. But rather than fight that fact, we should be figuring out how to harness the benefits that each bring to work, home and society generally.
Its not a Boolean thing. Men have female traits and vice versa. It is a question of degree and those degrees make a difference. Just as the difference between water and ice is the difference between 32 and 34 degrees of temperature. Small differences can have large impacts.
Kathleen Stock is not a radical feminist nor has she ever claimed to be. Her philosophy career never even touched on women’s issues until the trans contagion took off and piqued her interest.
Have you read her book Material Girls? It’s a pretty sober dissection of gender ideology using philosophical arguments. It’s not a feminist analysis of the issue so why in the world are you claiming that “her worldview” is responsible for gender theory?
I think it actually is about some men not taking no for an answer and trying to guilt trip some women into sleeping with them. Just breathtaking that some lesbian rights activists are actively colluding in this.
I can remember being guilt tripped into having unwanted sex, when I was young and naive and hadn’t learnt to assert myself. Millions of women are murdered, world wide, for rejecting a male.
According to the founder of this app, Robyn whatever her surname is, every woman is a closeted bisexual. Seriously, she went on record with this crazy claim. As an absolutely straight woman who has never been remotely interested in other women, I find this statement utterly ludicrous.
I can remember being guilt tripped into having unwanted sex, when I was young and naive and hadn’t learnt to assert myself. Millions of women are murdered, world wide, for rejecting a male.
According to the founder of this app, Robyn whatever her surname is, every woman is a closeted bisexual. Seriously, she went on record with this crazy claim. As an absolutely straight woman who has never been remotely interested in other women, I find this statement utterly ludicrous.
You want to go back to the root? There’s a guy, his name was something like, Michel Foucault. He was a French intellectual. Blame him, if you think you can actually reduce this to a simple matter of darn those 2nd wave feminists for daring to be unhappy with their lot, and for not being willing to accept the sort of biological determinism that you seem to find so fetching.
First, facts is facts, the data and the science support my position.
Second, nobody suggested that 2nd wave feminists did not have legitimate gripes. Everything from not being able to hold a CC without a husband or father to lack of access to professions was just bullshit.
If you paid attention, what I am saying is that every single human being, regardless of their sex, should be free to choose their own path, to live their best possible life, to find happiness and fulfillment, to strive as far as their talents allow, and to do so unencumbered.
What I am saying is that it was ALWAYS foolish to profess that women and men are the same except for biology. The argument was an understandable one to make at the time, even if it was wrong.
What I am saying is that those differences, even or perhaps especially because they occur among individuals on a spectrum, are a collective strength.
It never seems to occur to people that perhaps we have failed to ask the right questions and so have come up with bad solutions.
Do we think women should have the same autonomy and freedom of choice as men? Absolutely.
But what is the GOAL? Is it absolute equality in all things if doing so makes people miserable OR is it to provide everyone the opportunity and the freedom to pursue that which fulfills and makes them happy?
The mistake the 2nd wave feminists made was in assuming that if all the legal and social constraints were removed this would result in men and women being equal in everything. They assumed that if you took away all the legal and social constraints that all of a sudden 50% of CEOs would be women, 50% of doctors and corporate executives and politicians etc, would be women.
What they failed to allow for was choice and they always argue in a manner that assumes that men and women would be willing to make the same choices, and they do not. Outside the tails of the distribution, women will generally choose activities and jobs that are people oriented and generally more cooperative, lawyer, doctor, teacher, nurse, social worker, etc. And yes, they also choose to be homemakers, as do some men who also sit on the tails of the distribution. In general, men choose careers that are more “thing” oriented and competitive.
Women, generally value interpersonal relationships more highly than men do. Study after study has shown just how important those relationships are for women’s mental health. Men tend to have fewer friends, some have none at all, and have the same needs and same risks to mental health, just to a lesser degree. Again, this is all on a distribution and that distribution has tails, but the mean and the median of that distribution is where most of us sit. But if you value relationships highly then you are going to be less willing to engage in work that is going to keep you going 70 or 80 hrs a week and you are going to be even less willing to do it coding a database or designing a new steering system or reviewing financial analysis. My own daughter got accepted to one of the top 4 engineering programs in the country. I had strongly encouraged it. In the end, she hated it and hated the culture of it, switched majors to neuroscience and then went to law school. I encouraged her to do IP law, some of the highest paying work for lawyers and she had the support of her dean and others to do that. She said she has no interest, she wants to do trial law, particulary malpractice law after she saw a young woman turned into a vegetable by two doctors. People over things.
Women = Biased toward People, caring and Cooperation
Men = Biased toward Things, achievment and Competition
These are personal values and they dictate our choices on everything from what we choose to study to what profession we choose to how much we are willing to sacrifice for career advancement to even how we parent our children.
Hence the reason that the “people” professions such as doctor or lawyer are coming to be dominated by women and why the “thing” professions such as engineering are ever more dominated by men.But then even within these professions we get choices as we see with my daughter, she is willing to sacrifice income (granted, in her case that may not be a whole lot) for helping people she believes have been harmed. Most men would take the money. My fiance specifically decided that she did not want to get a promotion because it would mean more hours at work and more risk. She values the time with her daughters and her mother and her friends (me too hopefully) and does not want to pay that price. She also values a known consistency and income over the opportunity to make more but with risk. Most men would do the opposite which is exactly what her last two male peers did.One left to start his own business a year after being promoted and the other got fired after being promoted. Those risks turn her stomach.
I’m a trained economist. I do other consulting work, but that is my background. I can tell you in all honesty, that the research strongly supports that the idea that there is a pay gap, but that pay gap is measured across the entire universe of working men and women regardless of career choice. When compared within a career path the gap narrows to nearly zero. You cannot lump in engineers with school teachers. Then, when you dig deeper, you also find that where gaps exist within professions, generally, that gap comes down to choices people made. Are there exceptions? Yes. Big finance is particularly known to still have issues. It has an aggressive, risky, hyper masculine culture that even most men would not fit in. Given how well our financial system has been run, we could use more women in there diluting the testosterone and helping put the breaks on the high risk behaviors.
But again, what is the goal of all this?
I would argue that it is to free people to choose whatever path makes them most happy and fulfilled. We are all going to die. We have a limited time on this earth and we are all entitled to make the most of it as freely as possible. It seems to me that this is the single most important thing.
But, if we are going to do that, then that means people, men and women, are going to make different choices based on our values, values that are significantly effected by our biology, and those different choices are going to result in different outcomes but if the result is more satisfied people then that should be more than acceptable, it should be desired.
Just a side note on how very very small changes in biology can have huge impacts. The difference between human DNA and Chimpanzee DNA is less than 1%. Think about that, less than 1% and you get a vastly different species with vastly different, behaviors, capabilities and social structure. Is it then really surprising that the minute differences in DNA between human men and women would result in not just the obvious biological differences but differences in brain function and emotional makeup. Is it surprising that as a result of these minute differences one sex gets pounded with one powerful drug, testosterone, while the other gets pounded with another, estrogen and that those drugs effect development and behavior or that those differences would effect choices and decision making? Is it surprising that as a result of those diffences in choices that we get different outcomes? Of course not. But is that necessarily a bad thing if people are happy and able to choose that which satisfies them most?
First, facts is facts, the data and the science support my position.
Second, nobody suggested that 2nd wave feminists did not have legitimate gripes. Everything from not being able to hold a CC without a husband or father to lack of access to professions was just bullshit.
If you paid attention, what I am saying is that every single human being, regardless of their sex, should be free to choose their own path, to live their best possible life, to find happiness and fulfillment, to strive as far as their talents allow, and to do so unencumbered.
What I am saying is that it was ALWAYS foolish to profess that women and men are the same except for biology. The argument was an understandable one to make at the time, even if it was wrong.
What I am saying is that those differences, even or perhaps especially because they occur among individuals on a spectrum, are a collective strength.
It never seems to occur to people that perhaps we have failed to ask the right questions and so have come up with bad solutions.
Do we think women should have the same autonomy and freedom of choice as men? Absolutely.
But what is the GOAL? Is it absolute equality in all things if doing so makes people miserable OR is it to provide everyone the opportunity and the freedom to pursue that which fulfills and makes them happy?
The mistake the 2nd wave feminists made was in assuming that if all the legal and social constraints were removed this would result in men and women being equal in everything. They assumed that if you took away all the legal and social constraints that all of a sudden 50% of CEOs would be women, 50% of doctors and corporate executives and politicians etc, would be women.
What they failed to allow for was choice and they always argue in a manner that assumes that men and women would be willing to make the same choices, and they do not. Outside the tails of the distribution, women will generally choose activities and jobs that are people oriented and generally more cooperative, lawyer, doctor, teacher, nurse, social worker, etc. And yes, they also choose to be homemakers, as do some men who also sit on the tails of the distribution. In general, men choose careers that are more “thing” oriented and competitive.
Women, generally value interpersonal relationships more highly than men do. Study after study has shown just how important those relationships are for women’s mental health. Men tend to have fewer friends, some have none at all, and have the same needs and same risks to mental health, just to a lesser degree. Again, this is all on a distribution and that distribution has tails, but the mean and the median of that distribution is where most of us sit. But if you value relationships highly then you are going to be less willing to engage in work that is going to keep you going 70 or 80 hrs a week and you are going to be even less willing to do it coding a database or designing a new steering system or reviewing financial analysis. My own daughter got accepted to one of the top 4 engineering programs in the country. I had strongly encouraged it. In the end, she hated it and hated the culture of it, switched majors to neuroscience and then went to law school. I encouraged her to do IP law, some of the highest paying work for lawyers and she had the support of her dean and others to do that. She said she has no interest, she wants to do trial law, particulary malpractice law after she saw a young woman turned into a vegetable by two doctors. People over things.
Women = Biased toward People, caring and Cooperation
Men = Biased toward Things, achievment and Competition
These are personal values and they dictate our choices on everything from what we choose to study to what profession we choose to how much we are willing to sacrifice for career advancement to even how we parent our children.
Hence the reason that the “people” professions such as doctor or lawyer are coming to be dominated by women and why the “thing” professions such as engineering are ever more dominated by men.But then even within these professions we get choices as we see with my daughter, she is willing to sacrifice income (granted, in her case that may not be a whole lot) for helping people she believes have been harmed. Most men would take the money. My fiance specifically decided that she did not want to get a promotion because it would mean more hours at work and more risk. She values the time with her daughters and her mother and her friends (me too hopefully) and does not want to pay that price. She also values a known consistency and income over the opportunity to make more but with risk. Most men would do the opposite which is exactly what her last two male peers did.One left to start his own business a year after being promoted and the other got fired after being promoted. Those risks turn her stomach.
I’m a trained economist. I do other consulting work, but that is my background. I can tell you in all honesty, that the research strongly supports that the idea that there is a pay gap, but that pay gap is measured across the entire universe of working men and women regardless of career choice. When compared within a career path the gap narrows to nearly zero. You cannot lump in engineers with school teachers. Then, when you dig deeper, you also find that where gaps exist within professions, generally, that gap comes down to choices people made. Are there exceptions? Yes. Big finance is particularly known to still have issues. It has an aggressive, risky, hyper masculine culture that even most men would not fit in. Given how well our financial system has been run, we could use more women in there diluting the testosterone and helping put the breaks on the high risk behaviors.
But again, what is the goal of all this?
I would argue that it is to free people to choose whatever path makes them most happy and fulfilled. We are all going to die. We have a limited time on this earth and we are all entitled to make the most of it as freely as possible. It seems to me that this is the single most important thing.
But, if we are going to do that, then that means people, men and women, are going to make different choices based on our values, values that are significantly effected by our biology, and those different choices are going to result in different outcomes but if the result is more satisfied people then that should be more than acceptable, it should be desired.
Just a side note on how very very small changes in biology can have huge impacts. The difference between human DNA and Chimpanzee DNA is less than 1%. Think about that, less than 1% and you get a vastly different species with vastly different, behaviors, capabilities and social structure. Is it then really surprising that the minute differences in DNA between human men and women would result in not just the obvious biological differences but differences in brain function and emotional makeup. Is it surprising that as a result of these minute differences one sex gets pounded with one powerful drug, testosterone, while the other gets pounded with another, estrogen and that those drugs effect development and behavior or that those differences would effect choices and decision making? Is it surprising that as a result of those diffences in choices that we get different outcomes? Of course not. But is that necessarily a bad thing if people are happy and able to choose that which satisfies them most?
“Do not blame men for this BS.“
Not even the ones in dresses that think lesbians should accept them as lesbians and date them?
Call me cynical, but I suspect the owner of the app is a trans woman and not simply an edgy lesbian, unless edgy lesbian is the new wording for lesbian with a p e n I s.
There are differences between men and women. Even “2nd wave feminists” know this. But levelling the playing field for women is always going to benefit society in general. Why? Not all women can have or want to have children. Some are happy to work 60 hour weeks and to do “man” work. Being born to like only other women – biological women- is not a choice. It is what you are. Just like some people like same sex and opposite sex people. But never should any person force themselves on anyone else then demand respect for doing so. That is what is happening to very many women who will never date a man and very few people take it seriously. In my book, that takes us right back to the early 1920s when my gran and her sisters fought for levelling the playing field, fie example, having a bank account without their fathers, brothers or husbands standing for them. My great aunt fought to be able to have a same sex relationship and won. These women need to be celebrated as do the ones that continue the fight for equity.
I agree with much of this.
Perhaps the most painful and/or funny and/or ironic thing about Miss Stock’s essays these days is how blind she is to the role that her worldview (as a feminist and lesbian) has played in creating the trans-mania that she now objects to. The sexual revolutionaries originally wanted to be free from the weighty implications of sex, and to be free from the burdens of gender. They thought of this primarily in terms of child-birthing and child-rearing.
But now we see that the revolution cannot be contained and will not stop there. If we’re to be free of the inherent reproductive differences between men and women, why not ignore other inconvenient differences, too? As I asked in a recent (much disliked) comment… if it should be illegal to distinguish between men and women when hiring nurses and policemen, why should it be legal to distinguish between them when staffing your athletics team?
The response you typically get is simply one that hasn’t fully thought through its own implications. “But, being a policeman or nurse has nothing to do with gender, but being a swimmer or runner does.” Let’s play a Rawls-ian Veil of Ignorance game with that one… if you are being violently attacked and call for a policeman to come help you, but could know nothing about the attending policeman other than his or her gender, would you prefer it be a man or a woman? Or if you are in pain in a hospital room and call for a nurse to come help you, but could know nothing about the attending nurse other than his or her gender, would you prefer it be a man or a woman? Across human history, if you needed a hug, were you more likely to turn to your mother or your father? How ludicrous the sexual revolutionaries are, to pretend these basic facts of human existence could be wished away.
I think it actually is about some men not taking no for an answer and trying to guilt trip some women into sleeping with them. Just breathtaking that some lesbian rights activists are actively colluding in this.
You want to go back to the root? There’s a guy, his name was something like, Michel Foucault. He was a French intellectual. Blame him, if you think you can actually reduce this to a simple matter of darn those 2nd wave feminists for daring to be unhappy with their lot, and for not being willing to accept the sort of biological determinism that you seem to find so fetching.
This article is not about men taking no for an answer, its about edgy lesbians convincing straight women to be lesbians and telling other biological lesbians that rejecting a man who identifies as a lesbian is wrong.
Do not blame men for this BS. This is the fruit of the bizarre logic that has come from women’s desire to be freed from their perceived biological constraints.
You want to go back to the root? Start with the 2nd wave feminist insistence that the only differences between men and women were biological, that the rest is just social construct. They fought tooth and nail, screamed and yelled that this was so. So, in fact, if you can separate the biological from the emotional and mental makeup that is a result of the social construct everyone can be completely the same and equal. The whole gender ideology is built on that. Hence the reason that so many of these people are also socialists or communists, they believe in perfect, absolute equality. What you are seeing here is just one more extension of that.
One could argue that 2nd wave feminism went off the rails and instead of trying to enable women to live their best possible lives as women, that they should instead be more like the stereotypes of what women think men are. Even the pill was less celebrated as a means of family planning and more for the idea that women could, in their minds, have sex the way men did, in their minds that meant sex without consequences. Only, there are always consequences, there have ALWAYS been consequences for men who behaved that way, women just did not see them.
(As a side note, most women have NO clue what men are really like and have no real interest in understanding us. God forbid any man make stereotypical comments about a woman but they are free to make them about us at any time.)
The fundamental flaw was the failure to acknowledge that at the mean of the distributions of men and women, men and women are NOT the same, not physically, not mentally and not emotionally. Rather than trying to say that they are the same, we should have recognized those differences and figured out how to empower people to live their best lives, lives that emphasize their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses. Men and women are best when they are a team. My fiance is better at certain things than I am and vice versa. Some people would argue those things are cliches but cliches, like steriotypes and myths generally have some seed of truth. As my kids put it, she is better at the “mom things” than I am, even though I make an effort. She is better at converting a house into a home but I am better at creating the bones and structure of the house she converts, but damn she can paint and she can lay deck boards. I make a lot more money but I work 6 days a week and have spent years at a time working 60-80 hr weeks. She takes care of people for a living and would never voluntarily work any job that was not 9-5 M-F because she wants to be with her daughters, her friends and her mother. She has specifically said that she would not want a promotion because she would not want the stress regardless of the money.
Our biology effects our psychology, effects our emotional makeup and so our choices. One perfect example. Men will marry over and down the educational and socioeconomic ladder. Women, marry over and up. A male surgeon will date and marry the receptionist at the auto dealer. A female surgeon will hold out for a venture capitalist. Why is this? Women husband resources and see husbands as resources. Men are more interested in beauty/health, character and temperament than in what financial resources a woman can bring to a relationship. There is a lot of solid science on that.
Distributions have tails and the people on those tails deserve the opportunity to live their best lives and to be free to go where their talents and desires lead them. Whether that is woman who wants to be a CEO of a tech firm or a man that wants to be a homemaker taking care of kids and a household. But the vast majority of us sit somewhere in the middle of the distribution. The tails however have been running the show and making everyone miserable.
If you are a western lesbian; I have no doubt that this article really hits home – same sex attraction shouldn’t need explaining twice, but some men can’t take no for an answer i guess.
Thanks for shedding your wonderful light on this issue K, keep em coming!
I’m no feminist but when it comes to this sort of thing I am outraged that adult consent is apparently now politically conditional for lesbians. Sexual preference operates on a principle similar to secrecy of the ballot: you are not required to disclose your reasons and preferences because if you were, the entire principle is undermined.
Lesbians have the same right as anyone else to say no and for their choice to be regarded as private and not to be contradicted or questioned. Anyone who says otherwise is not a decent human being.
I’m no feminist but when it comes to this sort of thing I am outraged that adult consent is apparently now politically conditional for lesbians. Sexual preference operates on a principle similar to secrecy of the ballot: you are not required to disclose your reasons and preferences because if you were, the entire principle is undermined.
Lesbians have the same right as anyone else to say no and for their choice to be regarded as private and not to be contradicted or questioned. Anyone who says otherwise is not a decent human being.
Fabulous, forthright and witty article. Thanks.
Fabulous, forthright and witty article. Thanks.
A dear friend of mine is a lesbian. Decades ago, when we were both young and single, it was a surreal experience to be out in a bar for a pint with her, as we’d both lech over the same women, using near-identical terminology. She was certainly not PC, and described women she fancied in specific terms that were way more lurid than most blokes would ever use. We’d take bets on which of us would be first to pull a woman we both fancied. (She scored way more than me.) She also told me that, if bored, she could easily sleep with a very fit bloke (i.e., someone so fit that it cancelled out his maleness), on the basis it would be more companionable than a vibrator. At the time, I was surprised by that, as my assumption had been that she would have found the very idea of sex with any bloke very off-putting. But she said no, if he was very fit, and she was bored and horny, he’d be better than nothing, for such a limited purpose. (Sadly, as my body was no more than average, I never got lucky in that sense LOL.) But obviously she’d never be able to actually fall in love with any bloke, no matter how fit he was – she never in her life had had any romantic feelings about men, and never would. She found the idea of “falling in love” with a bloke comical. And, by contrast, she could sleep with a woman with an ordinary body, because there was the potential of emotional involvement with a woman that would more than compensate for an average body. As a result of having zero capacity for romantic interest in a man (whatever about the odd emotionless fumble with a himbo), she was objective about men and genuinely liked men as friends.
That’s got an uptick from me; rings true.
I think you’ve hit upon an important factor in lesbian relationships: the emotionality involved which they can’t (or perhaps wouldn’t expect to) get from a romantic relationship with a male. It sheds more light on factors other than the physical which attract people to each other (we’ve had the example of sapiosexuality with JS Mill and his partner).
Humans are complex, of both sexes. What’s beyond ridiculous is anyone insisting that either sex should have a physical relationship with anyone else, this article really is as basic as that.
Yikes!! I find that story cringe-worthy.
That’s got an uptick from me; rings true.
I think you’ve hit upon an important factor in lesbian relationships: the emotionality involved which they can’t (or perhaps wouldn’t expect to) get from a romantic relationship with a male. It sheds more light on factors other than the physical which attract people to each other (we’ve had the example of sapiosexuality with JS Mill and his partner).
Humans are complex, of both sexes. What’s beyond ridiculous is anyone insisting that either sex should have a physical relationship with anyone else, this article really is as basic as that.
Yikes!! I find that story cringe-worthy.
A dear friend of mine is a lesbian. Decades ago, when we were both young and single, it was a surreal experience to be out in a bar for a pint with her, as we’d both lech over the same women, using near-identical terminology. She was certainly not PC, and described women she fancied in specific terms that were way more lurid than most blokes would ever use. We’d take bets on which of us would be first to pull a woman we both fancied. (She scored way more than me.) She also told me that, if bored, she could easily sleep with a very fit bloke (i.e., someone so fit that it cancelled out his maleness), on the basis it would be more companionable than a vibrator. At the time, I was surprised by that, as my assumption had been that she would have found the very idea of sex with any bloke very off-putting. But she said no, if he was very fit, and she was bored and horny, he’d be better than nothing, for such a limited purpose. (Sadly, as my body was no more than average, I never got lucky in that sense LOL.) But obviously she’d never be able to actually fall in love with any bloke, no matter how fit he was – she never in her life had had any romantic feelings about men, and never would. She found the idea of “falling in love” with a bloke comical. And, by contrast, she could sleep with a woman with an ordinary body, because there was the potential of emotional involvement with a woman that would more than compensate for an average body. As a result of having zero capacity for romantic interest in a man (whatever about the odd emotionless fumble with a himbo), she was objective about men and genuinely liked men as friends.
There doesn’t seem to be the same pressure on gay men to sleep with trans man but then most trans men seem to be sad self denying lesbians where as trans women are heterosexual men in womanface.
There doesn’t seem to be the same pressure on gay men to sleep with trans man but then most trans men seem to be sad self denying lesbians where as trans women are heterosexual men in womanface.
Look, you always lose the arguments on this issue because, like the trans-activists, you’re so ideologically possessed by the toxicity of identity politics that you can’t see the wood for the trees.
The upshot is a universal and doesn’t depend on stupid labels – the person one desires is not obliged to reciprocate. The end.
“Sorry, no, I don’t fancy you”, or similar, is sufficient.
Did you in read the article.
When I read this comment I assumed that the writer had mis-typed as it doesn’t make sense. But then I see there are 22 upvotes. Could someone please tell me what the comment means?
I read the comment to mean that Kathleen Stock, who from time to time reminds us that she is now a lesbian, takes the whole identity label issue (I am a “real” lesbian) to extremes, because she’s “ ideologically possessed by the toxicity of identity politics” and has to clarify that “lesbian” means no one-eyed trouser worms.
It means that however you label yourself, there’s no such thing as “should sleep with …”.
This is not a trans/lesbian issue, it’s a universal one.
I read the comment to mean that Kathleen Stock, who from time to time reminds us that she is now a lesbian, takes the whole identity label issue (I am a “real” lesbian) to extremes, because she’s “ ideologically possessed by the toxicity of identity politics” and has to clarify that “lesbian” means no one-eyed trouser worms.
It means that however you label yourself, there’s no such thing as “should sleep with …”.
This is not a trans/lesbian issue, it’s a universal one.
When I read this comment I assumed that the writer had mis-typed as it doesn’t make sense. But then I see there are 22 upvotes. Could someone please tell me what the comment means?
Would that that were so. The whole problem is that in some quarters you can find yourself cancelled for saying that.
It should be but most people don’t take rejection well.
Did you in read the article.
Would that that were so. The whole problem is that in some quarters you can find yourself cancelled for saying that.
It should be but most people don’t take rejection well.
Look, you always lose the arguments on this issue because, like the trans-activists, you’re so ideologically possessed by the toxicity of identity politics that you can’t see the wood for the trees.
The upshot is a universal and doesn’t depend on stupid labels – the person one desires is not obliged to reciprocate. The end.
“Sorry, no, I don’t fancy you”, or similar, is sufficient.
Kathleen another excellently thought out analysis – thank you
Kathleen another excellently thought out analysis – thank you
I’m happy to be corrected on this, but it’s my impression that generally speaking lesbians don’t like being penetrated, at least in the same manner of heterosexuals. It’s not strictly necessary of course, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty these are the things that kind of matter.
Please report to your local commissar for ideological purification, chud.
I think it probably best to avoid making general statements about lesbians and what sort of sexual engagements they (we) prefer. That said, penetration (or lack thereof) isn’t the issue for most, or actually, any of the lesbians I have known in my many years on this planet. It’s all the bits that come attached to the penetrating instrument that, generally speaking, the lesbians I’ve known tend to be keen to avoid.
I would have thought that to be the case.
Nicely put. I take it therefore that the person attached to said instrument should be avoided regardless of what gender and sexual orientation they undertake?
So I suppose with that rationale, it is reasonable that some lesbians would be fine with trans women? Ie it’s not the p***s, but the man. If the man was a convincing women or at least super feminine and caring, then that might be what some would want?
I would have thought that to be the case.
Nicely put. I take it therefore that the person attached to said instrument should be avoided regardless of what gender and sexual orientation they undertake?
So I suppose with that rationale, it is reasonable that some lesbians would be fine with trans women? Ie it’s not the p***s, but the man. If the man was a convincing women or at least super feminine and caring, then that might be what some would want?
I don’t think that’s something you can generalize about from an “impression”, particularly as a male.
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Please report to your local commissar for ideological purification, chud.
I think it probably best to avoid making general statements about lesbians and what sort of sexual engagements they (we) prefer. That said, penetration (or lack thereof) isn’t the issue for most, or actually, any of the lesbians I have known in my many years on this planet. It’s all the bits that come attached to the penetrating instrument that, generally speaking, the lesbians I’ve known tend to be keen to avoid.
I don’t think that’s something you can generalize about from an “impression”, particularly as a male.
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
I’m happy to be corrected on this, but it’s my impression that generally speaking lesbians don’t like being penetrated, at least in the same manner of heterosexuals. It’s not strictly necessary of course, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty these are the things that kind of matter.
Nobody would have believed this could possibly happen 25 years ago.
You mean “nobody I know”.
You mean “nobody I know”.
Nobody would have believed this could possibly happen 25 years ago.
It’s rather a silly question that invites ribald answers.
But as usual, Professor Stock is absolutely right.
Ms Exton, OTOH, is clearly a woke-drunk idiot. No doubt a product of one of California’s finest humanities departments. In the rapture of Faith, NPCs like her have no regard for cause, effect and logic. But as night follows day, she will find her HER app’s meat catalogue stocked with nothing but incels in frocks; each hoping to finally have his sick way with A REAL WOMAN, and finding no one to cop off with but others of the same kidney.
Could lead to some angry and disappointing dates….
What a dystopia this all is: 25 years ago, not even Houllebecq could have imagined it.
If they ARE real women they would be happy to date one another . Something tells me they can easily spot another woman impersonator on lesbian dating websites and only go for real women .
If they ARE real women they would be happy to date one another . Something tells me they can easily spot another woman impersonator on lesbian dating websites and only go for real women .
It’s rather a silly question that invites ribald answers.
But as usual, Professor Stock is absolutely right.
Ms Exton, OTOH, is clearly a woke-drunk idiot. No doubt a product of one of California’s finest humanities departments. In the rapture of Faith, NPCs like her have no regard for cause, effect and logic. But as night follows day, she will find her HER app’s meat catalogue stocked with nothing but incels in frocks; each hoping to finally have his sick way with A REAL WOMAN, and finding no one to cop off with but others of the same kidney.
Could lead to some angry and disappointing dates….
What a dystopia this all is: 25 years ago, not even Houllebecq could have imagined it.
I wonder if Exton and Kelly realise their argument is just conversion therapy under a ‘progressive’ guise.
I wonder if Exton and Kelly realise their argument is just conversion therapy under a ‘progressive’ guise.
This whole subject is intrinsically hilarious. But has anyone got the joke?
Quite right. It seems like we are all living in a real world Truman Show.
Quite right. It seems like we are all living in a real world Truman Show.
This whole subject is intrinsically hilarious. But has anyone got the joke?
Who cares? You’d think they might have a bit of simple courtesy and go about their business without bothering the rest of us… but no.
Who cares? You’d think they might have a bit of simple courtesy and go about their business without bothering the rest of us… but no.
This is really really simple – a so-called trans women who says they are a lesbian is really a heterosexual MAN! Lesbians, and gay men, are same SEX attracted, trans people do not fit into this category despite their perverted desire to do so. A lesbian is not attracted in any way, shape or form to DICKs, just like a gay man is no way attracted to pussies. I have serious issues with the way lesbians are being critisised for not being attracted to what is basically a biological man with the obligatory meat and two veg! I have actually seen said lesbians called bigots and transphobes for not wanting to sleep with trans “women”. “Embrace the p***s” is one particular disgusting phrase I have seen – this needs to stop NOW! The LGB community needs to stand up and fight against this hijacking of their movement by perverted men (and it IS men, how much do you hear from trans “men” about demanding that men sleep with them?), unfortunately gay men in particular seem to be really silent on this issue – so much for the LGB movement!
This is really really simple – a so-called trans women who says they are a lesbian is really a heterosexual MAN! Lesbians, and gay men, are same SEX attracted, trans people do not fit into this category despite their perverted desire to do so. A lesbian is not attracted in any way, shape or form to DICKs, just like a gay man is no way attracted to pussies. I have serious issues with the way lesbians are being critisised for not being attracted to what is basically a biological man with the obligatory meat and two veg! I have actually seen said lesbians called bigots and transphobes for not wanting to sleep with trans “women”. “Embrace the p***s” is one particular disgusting phrase I have seen – this needs to stop NOW! The LGB community needs to stand up and fight against this hijacking of their movement by perverted men (and it IS men, how much do you hear from trans “men” about demanding that men sleep with them?), unfortunately gay men in particular seem to be really silent on this issue – so much for the LGB movement!
To the LGBTQIA+ “community,” an observation: the universe doesn’t give a rat’s podex about your feelings or your identity, and neither do the vast population of the planet.
Unfortunately, we are made to care. And that is the problem.
Unfortunately, we are made to care. And that is the problem.
To the LGBTQIA+ “community,” an observation: the universe doesn’t give a rat’s podex about your feelings or your identity, and neither do the vast population of the planet.
The gender ideologues are so convinced that subjectively felt gender is all that matters (or at least pretend to be so convinced) that they seem to have not noticed that people generally have sexual preferences, not gender preference, when it comes to intimate partners.
The gender ideologues are so convinced that subjectively felt gender is all that matters (or at least pretend to be so convinced) that they seem to have not noticed that people generally have sexual preferences, not gender preference, when it comes to intimate partners.
Once upon a time about a decade ago you could joke about so-and-so being a male lesbian. The joke is now an accepted truth and woe betide anyone who jokes about it
Indeed. We are all lesbians now! We are all trans now! Maybe I’ll get lucky with some beautiful gay girl who is really interested in a 15 stone hairy lesbian like me. Wish me luck, but i dont need it as I am gorgeous
Indeed. We are all lesbians now! We are all trans now! Maybe I’ll get lucky with some beautiful gay girl who is really interested in a 15 stone hairy lesbian like me. Wish me luck, but i dont need it as I am gorgeous
Once upon a time about a decade ago you could joke about so-and-so being a male lesbian. The joke is now an accepted truth and woe betide anyone who jokes about it
Lesbianism isn’t a ’cause’! Sigh.
Lesbianism isn’t a ’cause’! Sigh.
The weird thing about all this is that I am now under the distinct impression that if I put on a dress and pretend to be a woman many doors would open for me in terms of career opportunity.
I wonder if this, along with greater sexual access to women, is also a motivating factor for transgenderism.
The weird thing about all this is that I am now under the distinct impression that if I put on a dress and pretend to be a woman many doors would open for me in terms of career opportunity.
I wonder if this, along with greater sexual access to women, is also a motivating factor for transgenderism.
I blame Thatcher and her care in the community policy. These people should be locked away in a foreboding institution, far away from sane society. What they are trying to do is pure evil. They are trying to erase women and womanhood. It is pure misogyny writ large, and there are women who support this insanity!
I blame Thatcher and her care in the community policy. These people should be locked away in a foreboding institution, far away from sane society. What they are trying to do is pure evil. They are trying to erase women and womanhood. It is pure misogyny writ large, and there are women who support this insanity!
A rather long-winded essay on what it means to be a lesbian and a woman by Kathleen Stock – challenging those who have got it wrong. Fascinating, perhaps, if you are a lesbian or a feminist – otherwise, a bit specialist (and a bit of a bore).
I find myself yearning for the early days of UnHerd where on Friday you could count on a good article by Douglas Murray or on other days pieces by historians such as Ed West, Niall Ferguson or Tom Holland. Lately we get an awful lot of Stock, Bindel, Terry Eagleton and (God spare us!) Paul Kingsnorth. Is this publication in decline?
Agreed.
Definitely yes.
It’s interesting that the likes of, say, Tom Holland and Paul Kingsnorth find each others writings and perspectives interesting. Perhaps being boring is in the eye of the beholder?
I have little patience for the misandrist ravings of Bindel, but Kathleen’s articles are usually interesting and thought provoking. Maybe they could be improved by being slightly shorter, but this essay is indeed a worthwhile read that made me smile
I wonder if she gets paid by the word.
I wonder if she gets paid by the word.
Wait! Don’t you wake up each day and wonder or worry what is happening to the miniscule percentage of people who believe they were born in the wrong body?
Nope, But I do worry that one day I will be legally obliged to show compassion for their plight and confess my guilt for allegedly having caused it.
Nope, But I do worry that one day I will be legally obliged to show compassion for their plight and confess my guilt for allegedly having caused it.
The latest is that heterosexual males “must” accept transwomen as sexual partners or they are transphobic. So it maybe the mens turn to be cancelled and lost their job etc.,etc,.
Yes, down with those bigoted phallophobes.
Yes, down with those bigoted phallophobes.
Agreed – the article was something that is clearly way more important to Kathleen (as a current Lesbian) than to me (or all who are not “traditional” lesbians).
I was hoping she would bring it to a higher level (ala Mary Harrington) – say discuss how this ultimate absurdity in identity politics is what happens when people are trained to forget that there is innate order in the Universe (or something).
You know what I find boring? Pontificating historians who wouldn’t know a witty or entertaining sentence if it smacked them across the face, and for whom nothing is interesting unless it has a p***s attached.
It’s what sells. And soon writers will be replaced by AI which is cheaper.
Agreed.
Definitely yes.
It’s interesting that the likes of, say, Tom Holland and Paul Kingsnorth find each others writings and perspectives interesting. Perhaps being boring is in the eye of the beholder?
I have little patience for the misandrist ravings of Bindel, but Kathleen’s articles are usually interesting and thought provoking. Maybe they could be improved by being slightly shorter, but this essay is indeed a worthwhile read that made me smile
Wait! Don’t you wake up each day and wonder or worry what is happening to the miniscule percentage of people who believe they were born in the wrong body?
The latest is that heterosexual males “must” accept transwomen as sexual partners or they are transphobic. So it maybe the mens turn to be cancelled and lost their job etc.,etc,.
Agreed – the article was something that is clearly way more important to Kathleen (as a current Lesbian) than to me (or all who are not “traditional” lesbians).
I was hoping she would bring it to a higher level (ala Mary Harrington) – say discuss how this ultimate absurdity in identity politics is what happens when people are trained to forget that there is innate order in the Universe (or something).
You know what I find boring? Pontificating historians who wouldn’t know a witty or entertaining sentence if it smacked them across the face, and for whom nothing is interesting unless it has a p***s attached.
It’s what sells. And soon writers will be replaced by AI which is cheaper.
A rather long-winded essay on what it means to be a lesbian and a woman by Kathleen Stock – challenging those who have got it wrong. Fascinating, perhaps, if you are a lesbian or a feminist – otherwise, a bit specialist (and a bit of a bore).
I find myself yearning for the early days of UnHerd where on Friday you could count on a good article by Douglas Murray or on other days pieces by historians such as Ed West, Niall Ferguson or Tom Holland. Lately we get an awful lot of Stock, Bindel, Terry Eagleton and (God spare us!) Paul Kingsnorth. Is this publication in decline?
Dear Kathleen. Wonderful article, but based on a misapprehension. You are assuming that the writer is open to logic and discussion.
However, along with nearly all the rest of the Woke, they have adopted an ideology which distorts their view of the world. These things which seem an obvious nonsense to most of us, are logical consequences of the ideology. To them they make perfect sense.
Exton has not ‘decided’ or ‘chosen’ to adopt these views, they are foisted on her by her own brain. There is no hope other than a personal ‘Red Pill moment.
Dear Kathleen. Wonderful article, but based on a misapprehension. You are assuming that the writer is open to logic and discussion.
However, along with nearly all the rest of the Woke, they have adopted an ideology which distorts their view of the world. These things which seem an obvious nonsense to most of us, are logical consequences of the ideology. To them they make perfect sense.
Exton has not ‘decided’ or ‘chosen’ to adopt these views, they are foisted on her by her own brain. There is no hope other than a personal ‘Red Pill moment.
I have a feeling that this nonsense is being peddled by that (thankfully small and unrepresentative) cohort of homosexual men whom we used to describe, in less inhibited times, as ‘screaming p******s’ i.e. flagrant exhibitionists who get their kicks from outraging their fellow citizens.
I have a feeling that this nonsense is being peddled by that (thankfully small and unrepresentative) cohort of homosexual men whom we used to describe, in less inhibited times, as ‘screaming p******s’ i.e. flagrant exhibitionists who get their kicks from outraging their fellow citizens.
“ And if they do end up liking it, they probably aren’t lesbians.”
Ah, the ol’ no-true-scotsman.
“ And if they do end up liking it, they probably aren’t lesbians.”
Ah, the ol’ no-true-scotsman.
Of course Lesbians can sleep with men, or their pets, teddies, dolls… what a ludicrous expression ” sleep with’ is? Like Americans who say that their dog ” needs to go to the restroom/bathroom”, or Counsel who described his accused client as ” Not so much a thief as a compulsive property transference executive”……
Finally got that off your chest, did you?
and after all, may it please the court, a murderer is really but an extroverted suicide . . .
Finally got that off your chest, did you?
and after all, may it please the court, a murderer is really but an extroverted suicide . . .
Of course Lesbians can sleep with men, or their pets, teddies, dolls… what a ludicrous expression ” sleep with’ is? Like Americans who say that their dog ” needs to go to the restroom/bathroom”, or Counsel who described his accused client as ” Not so much a thief as a compulsive property transference executive”……
Love it. This bit is so true: “ you can’t berate yourself into feeling turned on by something or someone that would otherwise leave you cold — unless, of course, berating yourself is already your kink.” This is, as Kat points out, some 1970s/1980s chickens coming home to roost
Love it. This bit is so true: “ you can’t berate yourself into feeling turned on by something or someone that would otherwise leave you cold — unless, of course, berating yourself is already your kink.” This is, as Kat points out, some 1970s/1980s chickens coming home to roost
The only thing I’ll be proud of in June is me not losing my temper.
Boycott things like this app. Leave them to it. Create something new that facilitates what is missing.
The only thing I’ll be proud of in June is me not losing my temper.
Boycott things like this app. Leave them to it. Create something new that facilitates what is missing.
I suspect the trans-lesbians narrative is just another chapter in the long, glorious history of men using the tools at their disposal to get women to have sex with them.
I suspect the trans-lesbians narrative is just another chapter in the long, glorious history of men using the tools at their disposal to get women to have sex with them.
While I think it’s horrible what these trans-identifying men are doing to try to make lesbians sleep with them, I don’t understand how it becomes an issue for lesbians– I’m not lesbian, but whenever I’ve turned down a man for a date, I don’t feel a need to explain exactly what it is about them that doesn’t appeal to me– I’d have considered that rude, and I’d have thought them rude if they asked why I wouldn’t go out with them. Has the culture changed somehow so that one now tells a suitor what you don’t like about them? I just can’t see a reason for it ever to come up that you are turning them down because you aren’t attracted to men. If you want to take a stand on not having men on lesbian dating apps, that’s different, and I totally would support that, but as for individual cases, I’m unclear why the reason you turn turn someone down ever comes up.
It used to be that simple for lesbians also, until the trendy trans lot came along. Now, lesbians are labelled phobic if they state they are not attracted to a man who thinks he’s not, and again publicly judged for being same sex attracted.
It is pretty amazing that heterosexuals and homosexuals (men mainly) seem to have avoided the problem.
But why state at all to a suitor that they are not attracted to men? Why make a public issue out of your private relationships? I’m on the other side in terms of experience– I happen to be a 6′ tall woman, and very few men are interested in dating a woman taller than they are (greatly limiting my pool of suitors). But no one said that to my face; I only knew it secondhand when they would say it to a friend of mine (“too bad she’s so tall…”) What I mean is, a lesbian doesn’t have to talk publicly about who she is or isn’t attracted to, or give someone a reason when she turns down an advance (“Thanks, but no thanks”, and if pressured, “I just don’t want to” or “I’m not interested”). Unless a lesbian wants to be an activist, she doesn’t have to have anything to do with this insanity, does she? Unless the social code has changed so that you have to say why you don’t want to get together with someone, that you have to justify your demurral? –which seems utterly crazy to me.
Turns out a very large number of trans women identity as lesbian, and so actual lesbians were brought into the conversation. Dont forget, this is also a relatively new conversation without president, and it’s mainly been had through social media, forcing the issue with outright bullying.
I guess if you don’t have a public image, or you care less about what people think it’s easier, but I don’t judge.
Ask the politicians to show their real hands on the issue, and settle this madness one and for all!
Turns out a very large number of trans women identity as lesbian, and so actual lesbians were brought into the conversation. Dont forget, this is also a relatively new conversation without president, and it’s mainly been had through social media, forcing the issue with outright bullying.
I guess if you don’t have a public image, or you care less about what people think it’s easier, but I don’t judge.
Ask the politicians to show their real hands on the issue, and settle this madness one and for all!
But why state at all to a suitor that they are not attracted to men? Why make a public issue out of your private relationships? I’m on the other side in terms of experience– I happen to be a 6′ tall woman, and very few men are interested in dating a woman taller than they are (greatly limiting my pool of suitors). But no one said that to my face; I only knew it secondhand when they would say it to a friend of mine (“too bad she’s so tall…”) What I mean is, a lesbian doesn’t have to talk publicly about who she is or isn’t attracted to, or give someone a reason when she turns down an advance (“Thanks, but no thanks”, and if pressured, “I just don’t want to” or “I’m not interested”). Unless a lesbian wants to be an activist, she doesn’t have to have anything to do with this insanity, does she? Unless the social code has changed so that you have to say why you don’t want to get together with someone, that you have to justify your demurral? –which seems utterly crazy to me.
It used to be that simple for lesbians also, until the trendy trans lot came along. Now, lesbians are labelled phobic if they state they are not attracted to a man who thinks he’s not, and again publicly judged for being same sex attracted.
It is pretty amazing that heterosexuals and homosexuals (men mainly) seem to have avoided the problem.
While I think it’s horrible what these trans-identifying men are doing to try to make lesbians sleep with them, I don’t understand how it becomes an issue for lesbians– I’m not lesbian, but whenever I’ve turned down a man for a date, I don’t feel a need to explain exactly what it is about them that doesn’t appeal to me– I’d have considered that rude, and I’d have thought them rude if they asked why I wouldn’t go out with them. Has the culture changed somehow so that one now tells a suitor what you don’t like about them? I just can’t see a reason for it ever to come up that you are turning them down because you aren’t attracted to men. If you want to take a stand on not having men on lesbian dating apps, that’s different, and I totally would support that, but as for individual cases, I’m unclear why the reason you turn turn someone down ever comes up.
I have to admit I managed a couple of paragraphs of the article which is more than usual for this topic. I’d hoped the comments would give me a bit of perspective but I was just as confused after this. I’d like everyone just to get on with their lives as they see fit and ignore the whole gender issue/discussion, and I think Kathleen should change career and start doing something meaningful. The only reason I’m commenting is from personal experience, having worked with a person for a couple of years who is apparently categorised as “trans lesbian”, who I had not identified as such (wasn’t in my mindset) or felt the need to categorise during this period, in other words I regarded her as a woman, albeit with deeper voice than normal. Only later was I informed of the reality and then I started to wonder if he/she hadn’t had transformed would he/she have been straight and into women in a heterosexual manner, and what was going on in her mind/soul? I personally blame application and gross misuse of IT-technology for many of the world’s less pressing crises over the last 20 years including geneder issues, giving a platform to unbalanced and radical individuals intent on force feeding their warped ideologies on the masses. Downticks anticipated.
I have to admit I managed a couple of paragraphs of the article which is more than usual for this topic. I’d hoped the comments would give me a bit of perspective but I was just as confused after this. I’d like everyone just to get on with their lives as they see fit and ignore the whole gender issue/discussion, and I think Kathleen should change career and start doing something meaningful. The only reason I’m commenting is from personal experience, having worked with a person for a couple of years who is apparently categorised as “trans lesbian”, who I had not identified as such (wasn’t in my mindset) or felt the need to categorise during this period, in other words I regarded her as a woman, albeit with deeper voice than normal. Only later was I informed of the reality and then I started to wonder if he/she hadn’t had transformed would he/she have been straight and into women in a heterosexual manner, and what was going on in her mind/soul? I personally blame application and gross misuse of IT-technology for many of the world’s less pressing crises over the last 20 years including geneder issues, giving a platform to unbalanced and radical individuals intent on force feeding their warped ideologies on the masses. Downticks anticipated.
Two quotes come to mind whilst trying to untangle the delusions contained in this article:
Douglas Adams & Lewis Carroll
“Oh dear,” says God, “I hadn’t thought of that,” and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
“Oh, that was easy,” says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.
Two quotes come to mind whilst trying to untangle the delusions contained in this article:
Douglas Adams & Lewis Carroll
“Oh dear,” says God, “I hadn’t thought of that,” and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
“Oh, that was easy,” says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.
Wait, does this mean that as a man if I am not interested in sex with a trans-woman I am a “twisted fascist”? I don’t believe there is any pressure out there to compel such hook-ups, although it would be entertaining to watch the activists try. Surprised Stock didn’t bring up this incongruity.
Wait, does this mean that as a man if I am not interested in sex with a trans-woman I am a “twisted fascist”? I don’t believe there is any pressure out there to compel such hook-ups, although it would be entertaining to watch the activists try. Surprised Stock didn’t bring up this incongruity.
Interesting article, I’ve never heard anyone before put the current weirdness around male lesbianism in the larger context of political lesbianism, but I think Stock is really on to something in making that connection.
Interesting article, I’ve never heard anyone before put the current weirdness around male lesbianism in the larger context of political lesbianism, but I think Stock is really on to something in making that connection.
But nobody has to sleep with anybody – regardless of what sex they are/think they are/want to be.
But nobody has to sleep with anybody – regardless of what sex they are/think they are/want to be.
I find that in this case Kathleen’s premise is faulty. The dating app Her is defined as a “queer” dating app (this is the first thing you see as you open one of the links provided here) and in this sense they cater for a certain demographic. I would imagine lesbians wouldn’t use it at all (do lesbians use dating apps?) and go elsewhere and in so doing solving the problem.
The question would be if ALL the dating apps for lesbians are “queer”.
I suspect Robyn has a pee pee too, perhaps calling it a “trans” dating app is too limiting. Do trans people even date other trans people?
Well, that would mean we have come full circle then, wouldn’t it? LOL.
Well, that would mean we have come full circle then, wouldn’t it? LOL.
I think you would find that pretty much all dating apps for lesbians are full of translesbians.
That I don’t know, but this one is clearly marked “queer”, so if you use it you know what to expect.
Queer used to be used as a more upfront alternative to gay . ( like blacks calling themselves by the N-word ) Why assume all lesbians are going to know it has been appropriated in this way?
Queer used to be used as a more upfront alternative to gay . ( like blacks calling themselves by the N-word ) Why assume all lesbians are going to know it has been appropriated in this way?
That I don’t know, but this one is clearly marked “queer”, so if you use it you know what to expect.
Did you read the article, or just the headline?
The founder of HER stated “The future of lesbian is trans”: doesn’t quite jibe with your assertion that the HER app is a queer dating app, not a lesbian one. Not to mention the name of the app.
I laughed when the “L-Word” featured probably the first instance of a “male lesbian” on TV back in the late 90s/early 2000s. It was so stupid, so hilarious, such an obviously absurd thing. And yet, here we are.
I shoulda know it would come to this.
I suspect Robyn has a pee pee too, perhaps calling it a “trans” dating app is too limiting. Do trans people even date other trans people?
I think you would find that pretty much all dating apps for lesbians are full of translesbians.
Did you read the article, or just the headline?
The founder of HER stated “The future of lesbian is trans”: doesn’t quite jibe with your assertion that the HER app is a queer dating app, not a lesbian one. Not to mention the name of the app.
I laughed when the “L-Word” featured probably the first instance of a “male lesbian” on TV back in the late 90s/early 2000s. It was so stupid, so hilarious, such an obviously absurd thing. And yet, here we are.
I shoulda know it would come to this.
I find that in this case Kathleen’s premise is faulty. The dating app Her is defined as a “queer” dating app (this is the first thing you see as you open one of the links provided here) and in this sense they cater for a certain demographic. I would imagine lesbians wouldn’t use it at all (do lesbians use dating apps?) and go elsewhere and in so doing solving the problem.
The question would be if ALL the dating apps for lesbians are “queer”.
It would be nice to think this furore over gender was one of the initiatives, subconscious, naturally, in humankind’s last ditch effort to pull back from the brink of total planet destruction through overpopulation and subsequent loss of diversity.
It would be nice to think this furore over gender was one of the initiatives, subconscious, naturally, in humankind’s last ditch effort to pull back from the brink of total planet destruction through overpopulation and subsequent loss of diversity.
After reading the article and thinking about it for a few minutes I’ve come to realise that I really don’t care a toss who lesbians sleep with or why, not one iota. Lesbian sleeping habits simply don’t make the list.
You only worked that out for yourself AFTER reading the article?
You only worked that out for yourself AFTER reading the article?
After reading the article and thinking about it for a few minutes I’ve come to realise that I really don’t care a toss who lesbians sleep with or why, not one iota. Lesbian sleeping habits simply don’t make the list.
I fully admit to being baffled by the ‘gender’ wars. As a heterosexual (or should that be Cis?) man who doesn’t give a stuff what people do sexually, and havent for 50 years, and want to be supportive of any oppressed groups, I haven’t a clue where I stand. I do recall Eddie Izzard talking at length about his life as a transvestite while talking about his sexual attraction to women; he went on to say that made him fundamentally a lesbian. As a thoughtful, intelligent, self-aware, person who am I to make any criticism of comment on that position? I assume there are transvestites who are attracted to men and feel they should be treated sexually as women. I don’t understand the toilet wars. I attend toilets that regularly have signs informing me that toilet attendants of both sexes wilol be in cleaning. If necessary build three toilet facilities. I just heard File On 4 discussing sex education in school and one provider has a website that identifies over SEVENTY genders!!!??? How is that even conceivable? I support the right of gays and lesbians to live openly and freely as a matter of natural justice, and still do. Naturally this extends to any group unjustly treated by society. The problem I have is I don’t have time to spend several months reading sometimes quite impenetrable arguments to get uo to speed. My years are limitedso could someone please produce an objective short booklet on the subject?
I fully admit to being baffled by the ‘gender’ wars. As a heterosexual (or should that be Cis?) man who doesn’t give a stuff what people do sexually, and havent for 50 years, and want to be supportive of any oppressed groups, I haven’t a clue where I stand. I do recall Eddie Izzard talking at length about his life as a transvestite while talking about his sexual attraction to women; he went on to say that made him fundamentally a lesbian. As a thoughtful, intelligent, self-aware, person who am I to make any criticism of comment on that position? I assume there are transvestites who are attracted to men and feel they should be treated sexually as women. I don’t understand the toilet wars. I attend toilets that regularly have signs informing me that toilet attendants of both sexes wilol be in cleaning. If necessary build three toilet facilities. I just heard File On 4 discussing sex education in school and one provider has a website that identifies over SEVENTY genders!!!??? How is that even conceivable? I support the right of gays and lesbians to live openly and freely as a matter of natural justice, and still do. Naturally this extends to any group unjustly treated by society. The problem I have is I don’t have time to spend several months reading sometimes quite impenetrable arguments to get uo to speed. My years are limitedso could someone please produce an objective short booklet on the subject?
Just re-read this article and all the comments. I didn’t realise I had already read it at first as there are so many similar articles! However there’s 3 takeaways for me,
1) that really anyone can be trans and I think this is the issue most people have and it dilutes the whole thing and gets confusing. I can say that i am no longer a man, but a lesbian, transwoman that has just not transitioned… I just need a beautiful, gay, trans man that has also not transitioned! Lol
2) Lesbians may be OK with trans lesbians (that were straight men) as long as they are nice, good looking and probably effeminate (p***s optional lol). Lesbians don’t like typical maleness ot seems. The p***s is a red herring perhaps!?
3) oh, and the the world is crazy !!
Just re-read this article and all the comments. I didn’t realise I had already read it at first as there are so many similar articles! However there’s 3 takeaways for me,
1) that really anyone can be trans and I think this is the issue most people have and it dilutes the whole thing and gets confusing. I can say that i am no longer a man, but a lesbian, transwoman that has just not transitioned… I just need a beautiful, gay, trans man that has also not transitioned! Lol
2) Lesbians may be OK with trans lesbians (that were straight men) as long as they are nice, good looking and probably effeminate (p***s optional lol). Lesbians don’t like typical maleness ot seems. The p***s is a red herring perhaps!?
3) oh, and the the world is crazy !!
These men who claim to be lesbians need to be reminded of the trans mantra: Born in the wrong body.
These men who claim to be lesbians need to be reminded of the trans mantra: Born in the wrong body.
There are very few problems as first worldy as whether male lesbians are lesbians or not. Another 5 minutes down the drain.
There are very few problems as first worldy as whether male lesbians are lesbians or not. Another 5 minutes down the drain.
Why is this an issue that is particular to lesbians?
I’m sure this is an important aspect of it, but surely there are a much larger number of trans women who are seeking to have sex with heterosexual men?
I would think the possibility of a punch in the face acts as a deterrent for that kind of approach…
The article is about the trans women who identify as trans lesbians, they have no interest in men heterosexual or otherwise due to the fact that, like lesbians, they favour a partner with female genitalia. The point they miss, is that they too need to have female genitalia to qualify as lesbians. Prior to identifying as women, they were straight men with autogynaphilic tendencies. What we used to call cross dressers.
And still do call cross dressers, or transvestites – whatever happened to that word?
It seems to have gone out of general use, partly because it does not conform to the current ‘liberal’ (sic) ideology.
Because it has three syllables, however, it seems to have escaped being banned, unlike the N-word, the C-word etc.
The Cancel Crowd only ever get one- and two-syllable words banned. Subconsciously, they equate syllables with ‘respect’.
Person suffering from spasticism? Fine. Spastic? NO!!
Person with learning disabilities? Fine. Retarded? NOOO!!!!
It seems to have gone out of general use, partly because it does not conform to the current ‘liberal’ (sic) ideology.
Because it has three syllables, however, it seems to have escaped being banned, unlike the N-word, the C-word etc.
The Cancel Crowd only ever get one- and two-syllable words banned. Subconsciously, they equate syllables with ‘respect’.
Person suffering from spasticism? Fine. Spastic? NO!!
Person with learning disabilities? Fine. Retarded? NOOO!!!!
And still do call cross dressers, or transvestites – whatever happened to that word?
I would think the possibility of a punch in the face acts as a deterrent for that kind of approach…
The article is about the trans women who identify as trans lesbians, they have no interest in men heterosexual or otherwise due to the fact that, like lesbians, they favour a partner with female genitalia. The point they miss, is that they too need to have female genitalia to qualify as lesbians. Prior to identifying as women, they were straight men with autogynaphilic tendencies. What we used to call cross dressers.
Why is this an issue that is particular to lesbians?
I’m sure this is an important aspect of it, but surely there are a much larger number of trans women who are seeking to have sex with heterosexual men?
I suspect that many trans, Woke, etc., really don’t have strong libidos. Sex is casual and not very serious to them.
I suspect that many trans, Woke, etc., really don’t have strong libidos. Sex is casual and not very serious to them.
I so appreciate your insights: smart, sharp, funny. You don’t know what an encouragement you are. In Colorado, I’m currently navigating the fallout from publicly dissenting from my employer’s blanket embrace of trans “rights,” including soliciting employee participation in my city’s Pride celebration, which I founded as gay pride in 1991. Now, like Pride everywhere, it has been taken over by gender ideologues who don’t stand for what we did, and in fact stand against the historical interests and rights of women, and lesbians in particular. Thanks for your example!
At the risk of pointing out the obvious. The LGBQ Lesbians advocating letting the biological males who claim to be Lesbians into their apps are shooting themselves in the foot. Apart from the hideous ones every one will ignore. the rest are likely to have a smooth line and persuasive manner. They will snap up a goodly number of freshly minted new Lesbians who are intrigued by the prospect of an each way bet. Guess what they are now “out of the pond” and the traditionalists are still looking.
I gotta say that it seems like a whole lot of this crap has been started by white women.
In their determination to be liberated from their sex and to stick it to men, they have, through their, often bizarre, philosophical masturbation, managed to stretch the boundaries of what is real in defiance of common sense.
When people argued with them about where these things could lead and explained to them the potential logical outcomes, they scoffed, said these were “straw men” and extremes that would never happen in reality.
Now the consequences are being seen.
Women do not even know what women are anymore. Since nobody can define it, then there cannot be any rules to protect them.
But, I would point out, that apart from the men that are playing at being women, this is a situation created by women.
BS from start to finish. Stop blaming women for the crazed ideas and actions by men. Feminists never acted this way.
BS from start to finish. Stop blaming women for the crazed ideas and actions by men. Feminists never acted this way.
I gotta say that it seems like a whole lot of this crap has been started by white women.
In their determination to be liberated from their sex and to stick it to men, they have, through their, often bizarre, philosophical masturbation, managed to stretch the boundaries of what is real in defiance of common sense.
When people argued with them about where these things could lead and explained to them the potential logical outcomes, they scoffed, said these were “straw men” and extremes that would never happen in reality.
Now the consequences are being seen.
Women do not even know what women are anymore. Since nobody can define it, then there cannot be any rules to protect them.
But, I would point out, that apart from the men that are playing at being women, this is a situation created by women.
Why is this essay NOT in Special Measures?
This sort of stuff normally is.
Why is this essay NOT in Special Measures?
This sort of stuff normally is.
Create your own category: cis-lesbians.
They had their own category, lesbians! Men In dresses are not lesbians, Trans or otherwise as they lack v I r g I n a s.
They had their own category, lesbians! Men In dresses are not lesbians, Trans or otherwise as they lack v I r g I n a s.
Create your own category: cis-lesbians.
As people have said many times before on UnHerd, these articles are meant to distract us from the important things. This allows the comedians to get the most upticks but is it really why we pay for UnHerd?
As people have said many times before on UnHerd, these articles are meant to distract us from the important things. This allows the comedians to get the most upticks but is it really why we pay for UnHerd?