Masculinity (as well as femininity) is tied to our lost sense of community. As pubs and clubs close down across the country, teenagers are more likely to spend their evenings on Instagram, TikTok, playing video games or on some dubious porn forums than getting drink from the offie and messing around in the park or on abandoned railway lines. A social vacuum has been created at the same time as a dumbed-down visceral communication system has emerged. This creates a place where someone as pathetic as Andrew Tate can gain a limited sphere of influence. The emergence of such characters would have been impossible in the Nineties. They would have been dismissed as ludicrous wankers in a truly contested, democratic street culture, as opposed to the top-down media one we now live in. Now a noncey, supermarket transgression has gained a foothold, appealing to an entire lost generation of anxious, isolated teenage bedroom wankers, brimming with the sleazy narratives of onscreen porn.
While young people are being stripped of their right to be completely irresponsible — i.e. young — those of us who spent a whole chunk of our change in the last century are often unprepared to let go of our unruly youth, still investing in bad behaviour and the institutions believed to encourage it; the pub, the gig, the nightclub, the rave, the football ground and the traditional workplace. I personally thank the higher powers for those declining bastions.
In their growing absence, the neoliberal state has gutted everyone’s lives of meaning — to the extent that we have little to cling to other than a narcissistic, media-constructed sense of who we are and our supposed entitlement to avoid personal discomfort at all costs. Thus, through toxic social media platforms, proponents of various identities get to sling all sorts of mud at each other, devoid of any social setting and real human interaction. Generally, it’s an inconsequential battle, in which people are afforded the keyboard warrior’s licence — rewarded by the dopamine hits — to abuse each other with relative impunity. The objective of the game is to goad the other party into an overreach and a subsequent pile-on, with an attendant Twitter ban or, the great weapon of our times, “cancellation”. Generally, however, in those futile wars, no party claims a feasible victory. Nonetheless, the participants are rarely shy of pompously deploying tiresome, overdramatic dictums declaring their cause or viewpoint to be “on the right side of history”.
This nonsense benefits only the continuation of the current bankrupt system. The establishment’s economic, financial and social elites once starved people into compliance; now it lures them into pointless shouting matches, allowing them to stupefy themselves in the process.
So, white men aren’t the only ones rendered toxic by our culture. Every group and demographic, as evidenced by its social media extremists, are fundamentally unhappy with their lot and in existential crisis about who they are in this changing world. Part of this is the old science of consumer capitalism: keep us feeling bad about ourselves and then give us a product or service or procedure that will make us centred, complete or alive. Ignore the fact that we’re strutting around in a zoo we’ve made for ourselves. Whatever we consume or change or alter, we remain polar bears in the same concrete enclosure, pacing up and down.
The toxicity of white rich men is more consequential than that of the rest of us, which is largely an acting out, a cry for attention. After all, they are seen to have the power to change all this. Only they don’t. The consciousness-crushing machine they’ve helped create and service brings them no substantive life benefit anymore. Can a man with £400 million in the bank really be poorer than one with £500 million? How many lives do you need to live to spend that? It’s the accumulation of meaninglessness; the buying of some kind of dominance and largely imagined status over peers. Checking figures from the spreadsheets on their screens. Seeing how efficient a capitalism no longer tied to production is in taking the resources of communities, monetising it, and transferring it to their accounts. Basically, wasting their lives away in that most futile of pursuits: making non-spendable money, while the years tick by, and dreams of love and laughter are replaced by a rancid resentment and urge to satisfy the ego-driven need for “influence”.
The continuing war of capital upon consciousness, on what makes us human, continues apace. In an economy that can produce everything at zero cost, the wealthy are coming to the end of their ability to control us by paying wages. Now, this can only be done through the steady erosion of human consciousness. AI is a backstop here, just in case our spirits rebel in reaction to this, and we cut up too rough. After all, a robot or a computer doesn’t need food. And crucially, it’s not changed by anyone looking at it. It is not self-conscious. But if the system can’t make robots quickly enough to replace us, it’ll try to make us all into robots.
“We’re not allowed to say that” is the factory bleat that resonates throughout social media from all we older, toxic, white working-class males. How excited we get on our dopamine hits, when some papier-mâché faced ponce seems to stick it to the poker-arsed gatekeepers of neoliberal morality with a racist or sexist quip — while they (quietly) endorse an economic system of gross inequity that now almost literally defecates on us. Our participation in “politics” is reduced to watching a Frank Drebin from Police Squad/The Naked Gun look-and-soundalike clownishly annoy some uptight disapprover.
What we certainly are allowed to do, is to be nostalgic. The system plays on our need to make sense of our existence by processing our past, but only in a way that all conflict is taken out of it. Thus, our need to validate our lives in a fake “golden age” haze becomes a de facto endorsement of a system that has limited the potential of those lives. It encourages us to sit around crying into our beer about how things ain’t what they used to be, reconstructing a collective rose-tinted past designed to sustain us in our dotage, while ensuring this state creeps ever closer as mindless aphorisms — ubiquitous, circular — rot our brains.
Fuck that. Pick up a book instead. Let’s get educated. The smarter we are, the less easy it is for the unenlightened greed junkies to fuck things up for us. The world is changing, let’s change with it, but in ways which make sense to us, not to the blueprint of white-collar fascist controllers or soulless tech nerds who need to get properly laid. (They are the ones who’ve swamped our brains and culture with the shabby dictates of their crass dating algorithms.) If I could make one solitary plea to white working-class men: do not be servile to the upper classes. They are not your amigos. They blithely dispatched your forefathers to the killing fields, and they haven’t gained any greater appreciation or respect for you since. In broader terms, Trump-Biden 2 or 3 or 4 will not do anything for the citizens of this world that the first one didn’t. Probably much less. Toxic masculinity is just that, because it exists within a toxic system.
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There is little to no pressure on young men to read, get and education or even a substantial job these days.
Freed from the expectations of marriage and supporting a family they don’t need much of an education or income… just enough to pay for internet, porn, fast food, and satellite TV.
Society has told them they are toxic and unnecessary so why is it surprising that they have found a new path in life, a path that avoids the burden of supporting a family.
The article is just crude language and pseudo intellectual twaddle by an ego that mistakenly thinks he has something important to say.
It is all being engineered.
Soros DAs let the criminals off to destroy – first, Black men, then society. The entire point of this system, the George Floyd thing – is to destroy Black Men. Just as you point out, White men are intentionally being destroyed as well by other means.
All which is decent is under attack by the Progressive Left, they mean to destroy the civilization of the Classical Enlightenment Liberals, the sort who brought us Man’s highest achievements – like the writers of the US Constitution. Their demonic philosophy is Postmodernism and Nhilos.
‘‘ex nihilo nihil fit” They believe in nothing, and from nothing comes nothing – they are the destroyers of decency and good.
Same attack is with woman – the Education system has them being something like 25% lesbian questioning – because it destroys them, as making them get pubity blockers, or trans male, and to not want children – it destroys them for their function of being in a married family – the Highest state of humanity.
Sexualizing children – this is entirely to mess them up so they do not end up as a married person with a well adjusted pairs of children. Because stopping that destroys society.
All Woke is to destroy Society – it is 5th Generation Warfare. It is the same as Hi* ler – out to destroy the decent world, only not in a kinetic warfare, but by psy-ops warfare, every bit as evil as the 1939 episode. The world survived that narrowly – this war on humanity we call woke is equally close to destroying us all – if we do not struggle against it, we are destroyed..
Look into Gates and Zuckerberg’s eyes – you can see demonic forces laughing out at you…..They and their Ilk bring you this.
I think the denigration of men, and particularly white men, is intentional because they are seen as the most likely opponents of the new world order. So we are told in Canada and US that white supremacy is the greatest threat to society – and the biggest terrorist threat – despite the fact that there a little or no actual incidents of white nationalist terrorism. For the record – I think this analysis is correct. The gun loving red necks of the US are probably going to save Western society because unlike the rest of us – I am looking at you my fellow Canadians – they take freedom seriously – their country was born in revolution – and they are willing and probably capable of fighting off a tyrannical take over by their elites. One of the most interesting videos I saw during the summer of BLM was Antifa trying to intimidate one of the suburbs of a US city. They were chanting – but in a subdued way – and not threatening home owners or vandalizing property as they often did in the city – because outside every house was a man calmly standing watching them with an AR15 rifle in his hands.
As an American, I think your perspective on this is keen. Something I’ve been seeing a lot too is that the media almost always questions the involvement of white supremacist ideology in high-profile crime stories where the perp is white (and sometimes, even when they’re not), even when there is no evidence yet to suggest it, yet racial motivations are almost never questioned when the perp is black or another race. I live in a predominantly black city, and there have been black on white crimes in the last year where it seemed rather obvious that racial hatred was a factor (for instance, hateful and threatening posts about white people made on social media), yet the news stories said things like, “no racial motivation is known at this time.” It’s become common knowledge in the U.S. that if a photo isn’t shown of a perp, it’s because they’re a minority, usually a black man, and the media is trying to gatekeep to protect the members of that racial group. If the perp is a white male, his photo will be widely published. The establishment is doing everything they can to vilify white Americans, particularly white men, though white women seem to have also been kicked out of the priestly class of the oppressed in the last couple of years. We’re now all hysterical, entitled “Karens,” no matter how under privileged the individual may actually be, and are often told to shut up or that we’re not allowed to have opinions any longer. But you are right – it is the white working class and ‘Merica types that are probably the most equipped and willing to try to save America, because everyone else is being brainwashed to want to destroy it and to hate freedom. To the woke, more freedom for their fellow citizens means more opportunity for people who don’t share their worldview to hurt their feelings, and they’ve been told no one should be allowed to hurt their feelings – that in fact, it should be punishable by law. The anti-woke are seen as animals, so their feelings are disregarded.
As an American, I think your perspective on this is keen. Something I’ve been seeing a lot too is that the media almost always questions the involvement of white supremacist ideology in high-profile crime stories where the perp is white (and sometimes, even when they’re not), even when there is no evidence yet to suggest it, yet racial motivations are almost never questioned when the perp is black or another race. I live in a predominantly black city, and there have been black on white crimes in the last year where it seemed rather obvious that racial hatred was a factor (for instance, hateful and threatening posts about white people made on social media), yet the news stories said things like, “no racial motivation is known at this time.” It’s become common knowledge in the U.S. that if a photo isn’t shown of a perp, it’s because they’re a minority, usually a black man, and the media is trying to gatekeep to protect the members of that racial group. If the perp is a white male, his photo will be widely published. The establishment is doing everything they can to vilify white Americans, particularly white men, though white women seem to have also been kicked out of the priestly class of the oppressed in the last couple of years. We’re now all hysterical, entitled “Karens,” no matter how under privileged the individual may actually be, and are often told to shut up or that we’re not allowed to have opinions any longer. But you are right – it is the white working class and ‘Merica types that are probably the most equipped and willing to try to save America, because everyone else is being brainwashed to want to destroy it and to hate freedom. To the woke, more freedom for their fellow citizens means more opportunity for people who don’t share their worldview to hurt their feelings, and they’ve been told no one should be allowed to hurt their feelings – that in fact, it should be punishable by law. The anti-woke are seen as animals, so their feelings are disregarded.
I think the denigration of men, and particularly white men, is intentional because they are seen as the most likely opponents of the new world order. So we are told in Canada and US that white supremacy is the greatest threat to society – and the biggest terrorist threat – despite the fact that there a little or no actual incidents of white nationalist terrorism. For the record – I think this analysis is correct. The gun loving red necks of the US are probably going to save Western society because unlike the rest of us – I am looking at you my fellow Canadians – they take freedom seriously – their country was born in revolution – and they are willing and probably capable of fighting off a tyrannical take over by their elites. One of the most interesting videos I saw during the summer of BLM was Antifa trying to intimidate one of the suburbs of a US city. They were chanting – but in a subdued way – and not threatening home owners or vandalizing property as they often did in the city – because outside every house was a man calmly standing watching them with an AR15 rifle in his hands.
You are spot on about the author.
Anyway it is minorities and middle class women who are the the elite’s salivating attack dogs
In fact I will go one further, the author the elite’s salivating attack dogs.
In reality there is not a cigarette paper between them.
In fact I will go one further, the author the elite’s salivating attack dogs.
In reality there is not a cigarette paper between them.
I can’t understand how a “writer” needs to use the f word twice in the first few lines.
To show he’s a man of the “people”?
He turned himself into a rich bourgeoise by penning the Trainspotting movie which made heroin addiction fashionable especially among working class youths in Scotland .
This article is actually utterly hilarious. A sexagenarian rich man extolling the virtues of raving (aye, Irvine’s 63 and still gieing it laldy – ya bas) and the the ‘traditional workplace,’ which he has been nowhere near for years. Welsh is a multi-millionaire. How many lifetimes will he need to spend all his heroin chic wealth? As the old Chumbawamba song put it…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6zkiWEfg1w
No, he wrote the novel, which if you read any of his work, helps you understand ordinary folks living on the housing schemes in Scotland especially in the 1990s.
Housing ‘schemes’ sound nefarious. So he interpreted the denizens of these housing schemes to the novel reading bourgeoisie .
Housing ‘schemes’ sound nefarious. So he interpreted the denizens of these housing schemes to the novel reading bourgeoisie .
This article is actually utterly hilarious. A sexagenarian rich man extolling the virtues of raving (aye, Irvine’s 63 and still gieing it laldy – ya bas) and the the ‘traditional workplace,’ which he has been nowhere near for years. Welsh is a multi-millionaire. How many lifetimes will he need to spend all his heroin chic wealth? As the old Chumbawamba song put it…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6zkiWEfg1w
No, he wrote the novel, which if you read any of his work, helps you understand ordinary folks living on the housing schemes in Scotland especially in the 1990s.
He turned himself into a rich bourgeoise by penning the Trainspotting movie which made heroin addiction fashionable especially among working class youths in Scotland .
It shows he’s angry? No interest in reading after that…
It’s a cheap device to signpost his credentials as a writer of gritty screenplays and his allegiance to the subjects of the article (although his reference to them is meagre and rather lost in his article). It seemed an angry rant that overwhelmed and obliterated the subject matter.
It went off-topic in seconds, and mostly stayed there.
It went off-topic in seconds, and mostly stayed there.
I can’t understand why so many “readers” get their knickers in a twist over Welsh’s use of word “f**k” (or “f*****g”).
A 30-second check reveals that Welsh uses it a total of six times in an article over 2400 words. Shocking!
Yes, there’s a legitimate (though uncovincing) argument that he uses it gratuitously – at least at times – but overall it’s obvious that some of you are just small-minded, overly-sensitive prudes…!
PS The fact that UnHerd has decided to automatically insert asterisks whenever the word “f**k” is used in a comment is both hilarious and pathetic!
To show he’s a man of the “people”?
It shows he’s angry? No interest in reading after that…
It’s a cheap device to signpost his credentials as a writer of gritty screenplays and his allegiance to the subjects of the article (although his reference to them is meagre and rather lost in his article). It seemed an angry rant that overwhelmed and obliterated the subject matter.
I can’t understand why so many “readers” get their knickers in a twist over Welsh’s use of word “f**k” (or “f*****g”).
A 30-second check reveals that Welsh uses it a total of six times in an article over 2400 words. Shocking!
Yes, there’s a legitimate (though uncovincing) argument that he uses it gratuitously – at least at times – but overall it’s obvious that some of you are just small-minded, overly-sensitive prudes…!
PS The fact that UnHerd has decided to automatically insert asterisks whenever the word “f**k” is used in a comment is both hilarious and pathetic!
“The article is just crude language and pseudo intellectual twaddle by an ego that mistakenly thinks he has something important to say.”
Couldn’t agree more. Too many words, too much unnecessary swearing, too much pretension.
I have an image of the writing looking admiringly at himself as he writes…
Willian, your final sentence does it for me!
Irvine, I’m sure Scottish manhood benefits from the Scottish N*zi Party governance of your domain.
BTW shouldn’t you be on the South Coast screeching “For God’s sake don’t come here they are Imperialist, Colonialist, Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, Transphobic, Islamophobic and worst of all, boo hoo, THEY VOTED FOR BREXIT!!!”
Correct. What a pseudo intellectual pretentious mess.
“Conversely, black teenagers in inner London estates, continually the victims of harassment by the Metropolitan Police and at the bottom of Britain’s opportunity pile,”
Actually old sun i can point you in the direction of multiple books and studies that clearly show the band of youth in the UK with the least opportunities, lowest performance in any educational area and worse chances in life are, and have been for some time, young white working class males.
What a load of drivel.
Sticking f**k in every 3 lines doesn’t make you street, it makes you sound a has-been.
But he IS a has-been. When was the last time he was relevant? Seriously.
But he IS a has-been. When was the last time he was relevant? Seriously.
The disdain for the author and his writing style on show in the comment section is really remarkable. It’s interesting to note that no one has really taken on the substance of what he’s said. If this is the way the intellectually pretentious chattering classes treats a working class white man who’s done well for himself (it seems that disqualifies him from holding his opinions?) then in a sort of meta way you’re demonstrating the problem and are a part of it. What is it, if he won’t talk nicely like you then he’s got no value? Shame on you all, quite honestly.
Unlike yourself, sir!
Whatever you think of this article, claiming that it is “just crude language” is blatant nonsense (and, frankly, embarrassing!)
It is all being engineered.
Soros DAs let the criminals off to destroy – first, Black men, then society. The entire point of this system, the George Floyd thing – is to destroy Black Men. Just as you point out, White men are intentionally being destroyed as well by other means.
All which is decent is under attack by the Progressive Left, they mean to destroy the civilization of the Classical Enlightenment Liberals, the sort who brought us Man’s highest achievements – like the writers of the US Constitution. Their demonic philosophy is Postmodernism and Nhilos.
‘‘ex nihilo nihil fit” They believe in nothing, and from nothing comes nothing – they are the destroyers of decency and good.
Same attack is with woman – the Education system has them being something like 25% lesbian questioning – because it destroys them, as making them get pubity blockers, or trans male, and to not want children – it destroys them for their function of being in a married family – the Highest state of humanity.
Sexualizing children – this is entirely to mess them up so they do not end up as a married person with a well adjusted pairs of children. Because stopping that destroys society.
All Woke is to destroy Society – it is 5th Generation Warfare. It is the same as Hi* ler – out to destroy the decent world, only not in a kinetic warfare, but by psy-ops warfare, every bit as evil as the 1939 episode. The world survived that narrowly – this war on humanity we call woke is equally close to destroying us all – if we do not struggle against it, we are destroyed..
Look into Gates and Zuckerberg’s eyes – you can see demonic forces laughing out at you…..They and their Ilk bring you this.
You are spot on about the author.
Anyway it is minorities and middle class women who are the the elite’s salivating attack dogs
I can’t understand how a “writer” needs to use the f word twice in the first few lines.
“The article is just crude language and pseudo intellectual twaddle by an ego that mistakenly thinks he has something important to say.”
Couldn’t agree more. Too many words, too much unnecessary swearing, too much pretension.
I have an image of the writing looking admiringly at himself as he writes…
Willian, your final sentence does it for me!
Irvine, I’m sure Scottish manhood benefits from the Scottish N*zi Party governance of your domain.
BTW shouldn’t you be on the South Coast screeching “For God’s sake don’t come here they are Imperialist, Colonialist, Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, Transphobic, Islamophobic and worst of all, boo hoo, THEY VOTED FOR BREXIT!!!”
Correct. What a pseudo intellectual pretentious mess.
“Conversely, black teenagers in inner London estates, continually the victims of harassment by the Metropolitan Police and at the bottom of Britain’s opportunity pile,”
Actually old sun i can point you in the direction of multiple books and studies that clearly show the band of youth in the UK with the least opportunities, lowest performance in any educational area and worse chances in life are, and have been for some time, young white working class males.
What a load of drivel.
Sticking f**k in every 3 lines doesn’t make you street, it makes you sound a has-been.
The disdain for the author and his writing style on show in the comment section is really remarkable. It’s interesting to note that no one has really taken on the substance of what he’s said. If this is the way the intellectually pretentious chattering classes treats a working class white man who’s done well for himself (it seems that disqualifies him from holding his opinions?) then in a sort of meta way you’re demonstrating the problem and are a part of it. What is it, if he won’t talk nicely like you then he’s got no value? Shame on you all, quite honestly.
Unlike yourself, sir!
Whatever you think of this article, claiming that it is “just crude language” is blatant nonsense (and, frankly, embarrassing!)
There is little to no pressure on young men to read, get and education or even a substantial job these days.
Freed from the expectations of marriage and supporting a family they don’t need much of an education or income… just enough to pay for internet, porn, fast food, and satellite TV.
Society has told them they are toxic and unnecessary so why is it surprising that they have found a new path in life, a path that avoids the burden of supporting a family.
The article is just crude language and pseudo intellectual twaddle by an ego that mistakenly thinks he has something important to say.
Some interesting and useful thoughts buried in there.
There’s no such thing as “white, bourgeois, male privilege”.
Irvine Welsh is every bit as guilty of trying to divide people up into groups, give everyone a label and then claim that those at the top must all be undeserving and are somehow an oppressor class. He’s playing the same infantile game as those he argues against in this rant and no better than them. He claims that class “unites” and identity “divides”. Really ?
There’s certainly effective discrimination and prejudice against the ordinary white bloke now. Welsh’s advice to educate and inform yourself is good. But his divisive and archaic class war attitudes definitely aren’t any solution.
Not realising this is a class war is a problem. Which is why commentators on UnHerd aren’t really going to solve it.
All the issues that divide us – Covid, racism, net zero, gender – are the result of corporate and technocratic interests aligning together to preserve their power. The foolish, neoliberal elite that have dominated our institutions for the last three decades have intentionally or unintentionally deindustrialized the west. All these disparate issues are meant to keep the working class from uniting and demanding better governance.
All the issues that divide us – Covid, racism, net zero, gender – are the result of corporate and technocratic interests aligning together to preserve their power. The foolish, neoliberal elite that have dominated our institutions for the last three decades have intentionally or unintentionally deindustrialized the west. All these disparate issues are meant to keep the working class from uniting and demanding better governance.
There is no doubt that if you’ve listened to interviews over the years he a pretty angry take no prisoners kind of guy. I heard him going off about Thatcher in an interview and his visceral hatred of her and the British political class nearly shorted out my radio.
Not realising this is a class war is a problem. Which is why commentators on UnHerd aren’t really going to solve it.
There is no doubt that if you’ve listened to interviews over the years he a pretty angry take no prisoners kind of guy. I heard him going off about Thatcher in an interview and his visceral hatred of her and the British political class nearly shorted out my radio.
Some interesting and useful thoughts buried in there.
There’s no such thing as “white, bourgeois, male privilege”.
Irvine Welsh is every bit as guilty of trying to divide people up into groups, give everyone a label and then claim that those at the top must all be undeserving and are somehow an oppressor class. He’s playing the same infantile game as those he argues against in this rant and no better than them. He claims that class “unites” and identity “divides”. Really ?
There’s certainly effective discrimination and prejudice against the ordinary white bloke now. Welsh’s advice to educate and inform yourself is good. But his divisive and archaic class war attitudes definitely aren’t any solution.
I find his language unnecessarily crude.
I did not read it – he presents a thuggish, angry, crude persona in the first paragraph.. I suppose he thinks it edgy, or something. It is similar to going to hear an Unherd feminist writer talk and she just shrieks at the audience – who cares what she says – it is not worth the effort. (stereotypes, haha)
You didn’t read it so what you’ve written is an abstract on your prejudices? Somewhat arrogant, no?
No. Completely justified and correct.
The depth of your argument seems somewhat ironic – swearing may or may not add to emphasis – it is often an adjective, generally meaning “very”. To dismiss content based on nothing more than your faux sensitivity is somewhere between priggish and crass imho.
The depth of your argument seems somewhat ironic – swearing may or may not add to emphasis – it is often an adjective, generally meaning “very”. To dismiss content based on nothing more than your faux sensitivity is somewhere between priggish and crass imho.
“I never read a book before reviewing it. I find it prejudices a man so.”
No. Completely justified and correct.
“I never read a book before reviewing it. I find it prejudices a man so.”
Or listening to male stand-up comics for whom the f word is every second word
You didn’t read it so what you’ve written is an abstract on your prejudices? Somewhat arrogant, no?
Or listening to male stand-up comics for whom the f word is every second word
Agreed. That style worked well in Trainspotting but not here. He also doesn’t provide new substantive analysis. He accurately summarizes the plight of white working class men but that’s been done many times before.
Hmm, done before equals irrelevance? What changed? Perhaps it is still the root of the problem, that reality has been distorted, dividing people and distracting public opinion from the true nature of our systemic social malaise?
Hmm, done before equals irrelevance? What changed? Perhaps it is still the root of the problem, that reality has been distorted, dividing people and distracting public opinion from the true nature of our systemic social malaise?
Oh I say Mr Darcy, a swearword! How uncouth!
Childish remark. Mr Buckman is absolutely correct, it’s not the appearance of swear words, but their unnecessary use along with crudity such as “a (white) p***s in the underpants is more important than the lack of an arse in the trousers”. I read practically everything from unherd, and I am not used to seeing language remotely like that. In my experience, crudity of language, stems from crudity of thought.
p***s is a biological appendage last time I checked, not crudity. The Victoria era called and mentioned something about wishing you’d return with their time machine?
p***s is a biological appendage last time I checked, not crudity. The Victoria era called and mentioned something about wishing you’d return with their time machine?
Childish remark. Mr Buckman is absolutely correct, it’s not the appearance of swear words, but their unnecessary use along with crudity such as “a (white) p***s in the underpants is more important than the lack of an arse in the trousers”. I read practically everything from unherd, and I am not used to seeing language remotely like that. In my experience, crudity of language, stems from crudity of thought.
Whilst your content is arbitrarily dismissive? Some contest!
I find our media, politicians, politics, police, teachers and education, social attitudes and most people very crude. Irving Welsh’s prose always spits at you, it’s what he does and just because he says f*** a few times you get upset about it.
How about getting angry?
Saying f**k that many times loses all meaning.
A total of six times, in over 2400 words, Grow up Clare!
A total of six times, in over 2400 words, Grow up Clare!
Saying f**k that many times loses all meaning.
To the point though…
I think it lends authenticity. Many working class men use the eff word.
Many people say the word f**k you mean, not just working class men. I’m sure that is what you were getting at and that you weren’t being condescending at all.
Not to mention all the middle-class women. This is all to make them seem edgy and down with the people, meaning that they can say or write any dross and we are expected to take it seriously. Not that Mr Welsh’s writing is dross, it is just not that revealing and offers little in the way of solutions. The working class in general, but particularly the male, white, working-class have been reviled for long time now; you remember Gordon Brown and Gillian Duffy, the working-class woman from Rochdale from 2010. I think that the “liberal” left are actually afraid of them; they’re ok when they do as they’re told, but when they get all “uppity” they threaten the values, and even the status, of the liberal middle-class. These “progressives” do not want any form of “progress” that includes the proles; it’s our sort of “progress” and is for our kind of people only.
Irvine Welsh is a multi-millionaire who divides his time between Scotland and America. He hasn’t been anywhere near the working class, or the joyous ‘traditional workplace’ he froths over, in decades.
Many people say the word f**k you mean, not just working class men. I’m sure that is what you were getting at and that you weren’t being condescending at all.
Not to mention all the middle-class women. This is all to make them seem edgy and down with the people, meaning that they can say or write any dross and we are expected to take it seriously. Not that Mr Welsh’s writing is dross, it is just not that revealing and offers little in the way of solutions. The working class in general, but particularly the male, white, working-class have been reviled for long time now; you remember Gordon Brown and Gillian Duffy, the working-class woman from Rochdale from 2010. I think that the “liberal” left are actually afraid of them; they’re ok when they do as they’re told, but when they get all “uppity” they threaten the values, and even the status, of the liberal middle-class. These “progressives” do not want any form of “progress” that includes the proles; it’s our sort of “progress” and is for our kind of people only.
Irvine Welsh is a multi-millionaire who divides his time between Scotland and America. He hasn’t been anywhere near the working class, or the joyous ‘traditional workplace’ he froths over, in decades.
That’s almost certainly because you’re a prude.
(There are justified criticisms of this article, but the absurd over-sensitivity of a number of responders here is both sad and hilarious!)
I did not read it – he presents a thuggish, angry, crude persona in the first paragraph.. I suppose he thinks it edgy, or something. It is similar to going to hear an Unherd feminist writer talk and she just shrieks at the audience – who cares what she says – it is not worth the effort. (stereotypes, haha)
Agreed. That style worked well in Trainspotting but not here. He also doesn’t provide new substantive analysis. He accurately summarizes the plight of white working class men but that’s been done many times before.
Oh I say Mr Darcy, a swearword! How uncouth!
Whilst your content is arbitrarily dismissive? Some contest!
I find our media, politicians, politics, police, teachers and education, social attitudes and most people very crude. Irving Welsh’s prose always spits at you, it’s what he does and just because he says f*** a few times you get upset about it.
How about getting angry?
To the point though…
I think it lends authenticity. Many working class men use the eff word.
That’s almost certainly because you’re a prude.
(There are justified criticisms of this article, but the absurd over-sensitivity of a number of responders here is both sad and hilarious!)
I find his language unnecessarily crude.
Odd. My father was about as white working class as you can get – soldier, fireman, raised in East London,couple of years as a pow. I don’t recall him ever talking with the same crass vulgarity as this man
Exactly.
I wonder if this is how middle class novelists think that this is how working class men talk.
I didn’t hear my father swear – ever. He did admit though, that British pows would swear at and mock their middle-aged German guards, driving them into a state of purple-faced rage as they simply didn’t know how to hit back. Well, except with a rifle butt. And you didn’t swear at SS troops – they would shoot people out of hand.
My father developed a low opinions of Germans and novelists.
“My father developed a low opinions of Germans and novelists.” Best and funniest line in this whole article and comments section. 🙂
“My father developed a low opinions of Germans and novelists.” Best and funniest line in this whole article and comments section. 🙂
I wonder if this is how middle class novelists think that this is how working class men talk.
I didn’t hear my father swear – ever. He did admit though, that British pows would swear at and mock their middle-aged German guards, driving them into a state of purple-faced rage as they simply didn’t know how to hit back. Well, except with a rifle butt. And you didn’t swear at SS troops – they would shoot people out of hand.
My father developed a low opinions of Germans and novelists.
It’s a generational thing, though – and Welsh is of course Scottish, and probably quite a bit younger than your father. This is explanatory of course, not exculpatory.
Oh yes foul language is now the norm for many just as low aspiration is – why is that? Is it the collective influence of film makers and writers and low expectations of politicians and so-called educators on the public consciousness?
It’s the linguistic equivalent of rich people wearing a hoodie and trainers. It’s all signalling.
It’s the linguistic equivalent of rich people wearing a hoodie and trainers. It’s all signalling.
Oh yes foul language is now the norm for many just as low aspiration is – why is that? Is it the collective influence of film makers and writers and low expectations of politicians and so-called educators on the public consciousness?
Exactly.
It’s a generational thing, though – and Welsh is of course Scottish, and probably quite a bit younger than your father. This is explanatory of course, not exculpatory.
Odd. My father was about as white working class as you can get – soldier, fireman, raised in East London,couple of years as a pow. I don’t recall him ever talking with the same crass vulgarity as this man
While I take issue with certain aspects of this piece, its heart is in the right place. Instead of staying mired in misery young white working class men need to break out of it, get a lust for life, become masters of themselves and tell their lords and masters to f*** off.
Quite. The “self help” part is helpful. The “class war” part definitely is not.
It was a hard read and a struggle to stick with it and see the value. Or perhaps the author actually wanted to wind us up ?
‘…get a lust for life…’
I see what you did there…
If young white men actually did this in a meaningful way, the media would immediately demonise them and the author and most of the writers and commenters on unherd would be terrified of them and the threat they posed to the apple cart with its various entitlements and pensions.
But if they did so they might reject the views of the author an his friend and sponsors in the elite. That would never do.
Quite. The “self help” part is helpful. The “class war” part definitely is not.
It was a hard read and a struggle to stick with it and see the value. Or perhaps the author actually wanted to wind us up ?
‘…get a lust for life…’
I see what you did there…
If young white men actually did this in a meaningful way, the media would immediately demonise them and the author and most of the writers and commenters on unherd would be terrified of them and the threat they posed to the apple cart with its various entitlements and pensions.
But if they did so they might reject the views of the author an his friend and sponsors in the elite. That would never do.
While I take issue with certain aspects of this piece, its heart is in the right place. Instead of staying mired in misery young white working class men need to break out of it, get a lust for life, become masters of themselves and tell their lords and masters to f*** off.
There was a brief glimmer of hope for the betrayed and abandoned white working class when Frank Field was appointed Blue Skies thinker for Blair. He spoke out about the welfare trap, the loss of opportunity and potential by bad education and the need for a major rethink. Blair quickly removed him from that office.
Yes, Field was one of the most under-rated parliamentarians of his generation. He probably wasn’t enough of a ‘politician’ to really make the difference he might’ve done.
Absolutely. Truly great man whose inputs were sadly disregarded. His recent book is well worth reading.
Yes, Field was one of the most under-rated parliamentarians of his generation. He probably wasn’t enough of a ‘politician’ to really make the difference he might’ve done.
Absolutely. Truly great man whose inputs were sadly disregarded. His recent book is well worth reading.
There was a brief glimmer of hope for the betrayed and abandoned white working class when Frank Field was appointed Blue Skies thinker for Blair. He spoke out about the welfare trap, the loss of opportunity and potential by bad education and the need for a major rethink. Blair quickly removed him from that office.
I think this piece is heading in the right direction but saying patriarchy gave us “bad art” is such a silly nonsensical claim. If patriarchy has been the dominant organizing force for centuries then by inference it gave us all art, good and bad, unless the author is claiming we’ve had no good art.
I wondered about that. I suspect Welsh has a preference (as in his own work) for ‘transgressive’ art, which challenges perceptions and boundaries.
Much of modern art is didactic – but not all of it. However, one only has to wander through the rooms and rooms of very average derivative artworks in many museums (including the best, such as the Louvre) to consider what Welsh may be referring to as ‘bad art’. The best of the Renaissance and in the intervening period up to Modernism is, of course, civilisation-defining. But there’s an awful lot that isn’t, just copying accepted styles with perhaps a high degree of technical competence but no real insight into the human condition.
Call me philistine, but I don’t think I want ‘real insight into the human condition’ from art.
Why in the world should art have “real insight into the human condition”?
If you have to ask, there’s no point providing an answer.
What do you think it’s about, providing pretty little pictures?
If you have to ask, there’s no point providing an answer.
What do you think it’s about, providing pretty little pictures?
Call me philistine, but I don’t think I want ‘real insight into the human condition’ from art.
Why in the world should art have “real insight into the human condition”?
I wondered about that. I suspect Welsh has a preference (as in his own work) for ‘transgressive’ art, which challenges perceptions and boundaries.
Much of modern art is didactic – but not all of it. However, one only has to wander through the rooms and rooms of very average derivative artworks in many museums (including the best, such as the Louvre) to consider what Welsh may be referring to as ‘bad art’. The best of the Renaissance and in the intervening period up to Modernism is, of course, civilisation-defining. But there’s an awful lot that isn’t, just copying accepted styles with perhaps a high degree of technical competence but no real insight into the human condition.
I think this piece is heading in the right direction but saying patriarchy gave us “bad art” is such a silly nonsensical claim. If patriarchy has been the dominant organizing force for centuries then by inference it gave us all art, good and bad, unless the author is claiming we’ve had no good art.
This neat compartmentalization (“white, working-class male”, etc.) is very convenient for lazy novelists who couldn’t be bothered to develop their characters. But for me, each such category masks a huge diversity.
The world view expressed in this article is the hallmark of much of commercially-successful contemporary Scottish fiction. It also corresponds closely to the agenda of the cultural elite, such as the BBC, though they would express it without the four-letter expletives.
That’s pretty much my take. It’s an attempt by Welsh to appear relevant. I found it mainly incoherent with just the odd useful point thrown in; for instance around his preferences for male or female friendship groups.
I agree. For example, I grew up in Salford in the 60s and 70s and such liberal use of the f word was not general currency – it might have been the case in Glasgow, I could not say. In Salford that word was generally expressed with a two finger salute if at all. I suppose, back then, it wasn’t felt necessary to prove one’s bona fide social status by peppering every point with bad language.
That’s pretty much my take. It’s an attempt by Welsh to appear relevant. I found it mainly incoherent with just the odd useful point thrown in; for instance around his preferences for male or female friendship groups.
I agree. For example, I grew up in Salford in the 60s and 70s and such liberal use of the f word was not general currency – it might have been the case in Glasgow, I could not say. In Salford that word was generally expressed with a two finger salute if at all. I suppose, back then, it wasn’t felt necessary to prove one’s bona fide social status by peppering every point with bad language.
This neat compartmentalization (“white, working-class male”, etc.) is very convenient for lazy novelists who couldn’t be bothered to develop their characters. But for me, each such category masks a huge diversity.
The world view expressed in this article is the hallmark of much of commercially-successful contemporary Scottish fiction. It also corresponds closely to the agenda of the cultural elite, such as the BBC, though they would express it without the four-letter expletives.
Hard to get through the unnecessarily crude language. Irvine totally misses white, working-class males’ connection to the Trump phenomenon. To them, making America great again means going back to aspirations of a Capitalist meritocracy where corporate integrity, honest work, fair wages, and family values make everyone — including white males — feel respected and rewarded. Debate any one of those things and you simply do not remember or understand the America of the past. We were/are an imperfect union and constant work in progress, still far better than the corrupt Deep State, FDA, Big Pharma, Big Tech, Legacy Media, DEI that seeks to divide the People and judge them by the color of their skin (or gender, sexual preference or identity) rather than the content of their character. Congress needs to be cleansed, as do the Board rooms of corrupt and woke corporations. THAT is the existential threat Trump presents to the Establishment. How else could you explain weaponized government and legal assaults, as well as zealous support for an otherwise objectionable individual?
Hard to get through the unnecessarily crude language. Irvine totally misses white, working-class males’ connection to the Trump phenomenon. To them, making America great again means going back to aspirations of a Capitalist meritocracy where corporate integrity, honest work, fair wages, and family values make everyone — including white males — feel respected and rewarded. Debate any one of those things and you simply do not remember or understand the America of the past. We were/are an imperfect union and constant work in progress, still far better than the corrupt Deep State, FDA, Big Pharma, Big Tech, Legacy Media, DEI that seeks to divide the People and judge them by the color of their skin (or gender, sexual preference or identity) rather than the content of their character. Congress needs to be cleansed, as do the Board rooms of corrupt and woke corporations. THAT is the existential threat Trump presents to the Establishment. How else could you explain weaponized government and legal assaults, as well as zealous support for an otherwise objectionable individual?
Cards on the table: I’ve never been interested in the cult of Irvine Welsh and his Trainspotting novel or flm. This extended rant has all the shallow insight of an angry bar-room-bore revolutionary well into his drinks. Just as with the rantings of boozed up pub demagogue I found myself looking for the exit.
But I made the effort to read on to the end where this gem can be found:
which could so easily be the desperate battle cry of keyboard warriors and keyboard sleuthers accross the worldwide web.
I respect that you we’re able to wade through what you didn’t like and acknowledge that gem. I know what you mean about the pub-rant self-indulgence, but there is also a measure of substance (2.5 “substance units”?) amidst the pugnacious posturing.
If y’all in the UnHerd flock want a real challenge: Please tolerate wild/over-the-top articles, including ones you dislike. Some of them will be a waste of time or “vanity and vexation of spirit”, but that’s better than a predictable, comfortable sleepwalk…right?
Thoroughly agree with that.
What a very strange comment, AJ Mac! Why should my criticism of an article be met with a the plea for tolerance?! Did I ask for the piece to be removed? Did I demand that Irving Welsh never be allowed to publish here ever again? Nope! I expressed my low opinion of the piece and made a particular point about final paragraph.
Please learn to tolerate criticism of articles, particularly criticisms you dislike! [And that goes for you too Steve Murray!]
You totally mistake my intent. I meant to applaud your willingness to see something good in what you mostly don’t like. The second part of my comment was pointed toward the whole commentariat here at UnHerd, advocating for patience and tolerance for views one doesn’t share (which you demonstrated yourself), instead of some particular, oppositional point of view that one might prefer. To be honest, I’m opinionated and snap-judgmental too–but I’m trying to cut down!
(afterthought: And I see I could have made meaning more clear, so I apologize)
You totally mistake my intent. I meant to applaud your willingness to see something good in what you mostly don’t like. The second part of my comment was pointed toward the whole commentariat here at UnHerd, advocating for patience and tolerance for views one doesn’t share (which you demonstrated yourself), instead of some particular, oppositional point of view that one might prefer. To be honest, I’m opinionated and snap-judgmental too–but I’m trying to cut down!
(afterthought: And I see I could have made meaning more clear, so I apologize)
Thoroughly agree with that.
What a very strange comment, AJ Mac! Why should my criticism of an article be met with a the plea for tolerance?! Did I ask for the piece to be removed? Did I demand that Irving Welsh never be allowed to publish here ever again? Nope! I expressed my low opinion of the piece and made a particular point about final paragraph.
Please learn to tolerate criticism of articles, particularly criticisms you dislike! [And that goes for you too Steve Murray!]
Except for the word “unenlightened.” I don’t buy that reading books is the secret to “enlightenment.” I’ve met plenty of manual labor folks that aren’t well read that can fix things, make a good living and raise their family right. They learn things in the real world and have human interactions that books can never teach. I try to remember that as an “educated person.” There’s people with less formal education that know things I dont.
Exactly, education doesn’t equal learning. In fact, the higher up you go, the narrower the thinking often becomes. And the more groupthink is incentivized. Regardless of how many letters you have after your name, enlightenment comes from asking questions, seeking out all available data/POV (not just that which is delivered to you) and asking “Who benefits from this [insert narrative, ideology, POV]?.
Exactly, education doesn’t equal learning. In fact, the higher up you go, the narrower the thinking often becomes. And the more groupthink is incentivized. Regardless of how many letters you have after your name, enlightenment comes from asking questions, seeking out all available data/POV (not just that which is delivered to you) and asking “Who benefits from this [insert narrative, ideology, POV]?.
I respect that you we’re able to wade through what you didn’t like and acknowledge that gem. I know what you mean about the pub-rant self-indulgence, but there is also a measure of substance (2.5 “substance units”?) amidst the pugnacious posturing.
If y’all in the UnHerd flock want a real challenge: Please tolerate wild/over-the-top articles, including ones you dislike. Some of them will be a waste of time or “vanity and vexation of spirit”, but that’s better than a predictable, comfortable sleepwalk…right?
Except for the word “unenlightened.” I don’t buy that reading books is the secret to “enlightenment.” I’ve met plenty of manual labor folks that aren’t well read that can fix things, make a good living and raise their family right. They learn things in the real world and have human interactions that books can never teach. I try to remember that as an “educated person.” There’s people with less formal education that know things I dont.
Cards on the table: I’ve never been interested in the cult of Irvine Welsh and his Trainspotting novel or flm. This extended rant has all the shallow insight of an angry bar-room-bore revolutionary well into his drinks. Just as with the rantings of boozed up pub demagogue I found myself looking for the exit.
But I made the effort to read on to the end where this gem can be found:
which could so easily be the desperate battle cry of keyboard warriors and keyboard sleuthers accross the worldwide web.
This article is fairly crap to be honest. More like a drunken rant down the pub (with the course language thrown in) than an attempt at finding the answers. The authors generation are part of our current predicament. The 60’s saw that generation wage a total attack, a revolution on tradition, religion and rules. They destroyed the place. Tore down everything in an orgy of sex, violence, drugs, anarchy without replacing it with anything better. The nation state, the family, communities etc all destroyed in this orgy of revolution. Now we have their spawn. The woke generation, with an almost religious zeal, trying to implement some undemocratic totalitarian left wing “fascism”. The laws have been changed over decades by lobby groups so the majority have no political or legal way to stop their march through each and every institution. Now the white working class are just being trampled over in the mess that they left. So yes, if you’re going to start a revolution against the whole of tradition then don’t complain when you stand in the ruins!
But the white working class aren’t responsible for that mess. It was the Left wing (supposedly) educated middle class.
Welsh’s generation was the 90s not the 60s.
The 60s was a reaction to the world that tore itself apart with two cataclysms. Some historical perspective, please, rather than hand-wrought moralising.
But the white working class aren’t responsible for that mess. It was the Left wing (supposedly) educated middle class.
Welsh’s generation was the 90s not the 60s.
The 60s was a reaction to the world that tore itself apart with two cataclysms. Some historical perspective, please, rather than hand-wrought moralising.
This article is fairly crap to be honest. More like a drunken rant down the pub (with the course language thrown in) than an attempt at finding the answers. The authors generation are part of our current predicament. The 60’s saw that generation wage a total attack, a revolution on tradition, religion and rules. They destroyed the place. Tore down everything in an orgy of sex, violence, drugs, anarchy without replacing it with anything better. The nation state, the family, communities etc all destroyed in this orgy of revolution. Now we have their spawn. The woke generation, with an almost religious zeal, trying to implement some undemocratic totalitarian left wing “fascism”. The laws have been changed over decades by lobby groups so the majority have no political or legal way to stop their march through each and every institution. Now the white working class are just being trampled over in the mess that they left. So yes, if you’re going to start a revolution against the whole of tradition then don’t complain when you stand in the ruins!
First of all. I have mad respect for your analytical skills and plenty of your conclusions, I just disagree with your Thesis. So its safe to assume your opinion was rationalized dialectically through the Lord-Bondsman Dialectic. You said all the byproducts of Intersectionality are harmful and toxic…and I agree. But is Intersectionality and ESG not the End Product of Marx and Engels blueprint?
Socialism simply doesn’t produce. It can’t. It’s a system that disincentivizes production. It’s not a bottom up program. Marx thought he inverted Hegel’s top-down Mysticism but he didn’t. Workers don’t have the business knowledge to run factories. The Marxist leaders knew it would require a “transition phase” of Vanguard control to assure production. But what is the Vanguard’s incentive to make sure its workers produce if that means their necessity will just be dissolved upon worker control? None, they have no incentive. In fact they have disincentive. They have incentive to create new crises to justify expanding their own “temporary” power. So agitation during work hours isn’t a problem for the Vanguard. Outcomes don’t get anyone promoted in that type of system. The promotion comes from dutiful compliance to the Vanguard agenda.
Hegel was just a Hermetic. Marx combined Gnosticism with Hermeticism with the Alchemical solution being Conflict Theory and using worker activism to agitate for change to the Social Conditions toward a Workers Paradise. But the agitation incentivizes workers to become grievance based. I know Socialists disdain Thatcher but she had a point about agitation disrupting business and public services.
In a grievance based Spoils System, it becomes not who can produce the most Steel but who can agitate the ownership class the most. Did Marxists have a point about many in the ownership class? I’m sure…but to assume being an Owner on its own makes somebody an undeserving cheat is an overgeneralization and toxic assumption. This idea of systemetizing and overclassifying everyone runs into unresolvable contradictions.
Taken to Marxism’s logical conclusion it synthesizes hard science with social sciences and economics with social justice and creates a completely Top Down System. It drives people apart from each other by design. Its inherently divisive.
We shouldn’t be pitting groups against each other period. We should be supporting a Merit Based Order with social safety nets for the people that truly can’t care for themselves. We’ve created an Elite Privilege and Grievance Spoils System not because of Capitalism or the vague “Neoliberalism” but because we’re too busy trying to “perfect society” that we’re misidentifying the actual root cause of our problems. The root cause is that we fight just to fight. We’re not fighting for justice. We’re fighting each other and a chaotic destabilized system means less economic production creating a system that favors those that already have.
We need to stop and be appreciative for what we do have. But this Gnostic Nihilism basically tells everyone that they’re trapped in a prison of Being. So you’re going to be anxious and miserable because everything is made to feel like an existential crisis.It’s cynical at all times and ends up doing the exact thing the Marxist dialectic tries not to do.
This idea of transforming the Species into a new type of man is doomed to fail spectacularly. I don’t see how anybody can look at the French Revolution and say, let’s recreate the conditions of 1790’s Paris…but Marx rationalized it as liberating. The contradictions of Marxist existentialism are endless. Its a rabbit hole to nowhere but dread and misery. It doesn’t have to be. What we’re seeing now is a lot of things, but its not the result of laissez-faire Capitalism.
Regardless of my criticism, the analytics here are impressive. It was a thought-provoking piece.
First of all. I have mad respect for your analytical skills and plenty of your conclusions, I just disagree with your Thesis. So its safe to assume your opinion was rationalized dialectically through the Lord-Bondsman Dialectic. You said all the byproducts of Intersectionality are harmful and toxic…and I agree. But is Intersectionality and ESG not the End Product of Marx and Engels blueprint?
Socialism simply doesn’t produce. It can’t. It’s a system that disincentivizes production. It’s not a bottom up program. Marx thought he inverted Hegel’s top-down Mysticism but he didn’t. Workers don’t have the business knowledge to run factories. The Marxist leaders knew it would require a “transition phase” of Vanguard control to assure production. But what is the Vanguard’s incentive to make sure its workers produce if that means their necessity will just be dissolved upon worker control? None, they have no incentive. In fact they have disincentive. They have incentive to create new crises to justify expanding their own “temporary” power. So agitation during work hours isn’t a problem for the Vanguard. Outcomes don’t get anyone promoted in that type of system. The promotion comes from dutiful compliance to the Vanguard agenda.
Hegel was just a Hermetic. Marx combined Gnosticism with Hermeticism with the Alchemical solution being Conflict Theory and using worker activism to agitate for change to the Social Conditions toward a Workers Paradise. But the agitation incentivizes workers to become grievance based. I know Socialists disdain Thatcher but she had a point about agitation disrupting business and public services.
In a grievance based Spoils System, it becomes not who can produce the most Steel but who can agitate the ownership class the most. Did Marxists have a point about many in the ownership class? I’m sure…but to assume being an Owner on its own makes somebody an undeserving cheat is an overgeneralization and toxic assumption. This idea of systemetizing and overclassifying everyone runs into unresolvable contradictions.
Taken to Marxism’s logical conclusion it synthesizes hard science with social sciences and economics with social justice and creates a completely Top Down System. It drives people apart from each other by design. Its inherently divisive.
We shouldn’t be pitting groups against each other period. We should be supporting a Merit Based Order with social safety nets for the people that truly can’t care for themselves. We’ve created an Elite Privilege and Grievance Spoils System not because of Capitalism or the vague “Neoliberalism” but because we’re too busy trying to “perfect society” that we’re misidentifying the actual root cause of our problems. The root cause is that we fight just to fight. We’re not fighting for justice. We’re fighting each other and a chaotic destabilized system means less economic production creating a system that favors those that already have.
We need to stop and be appreciative for what we do have. But this Gnostic Nihilism basically tells everyone that they’re trapped in a prison of Being. So you’re going to be anxious and miserable because everything is made to feel like an existential crisis.It’s cynical at all times and ends up doing the exact thing the Marxist dialectic tries not to do.
This idea of transforming the Species into a new type of man is doomed to fail spectacularly. I don’t see how anybody can look at the French Revolution and say, let’s recreate the conditions of 1790’s Paris…but Marx rationalized it as liberating. The contradictions of Marxist existentialism are endless. Its a rabbit hole to nowhere but dread and misery. It doesn’t have to be. What we’re seeing now is a lot of things, but its not the result of laissez-faire Capitalism.
Regardless of my criticism, the analytics here are impressive. It was a thought-provoking piece.
As long ago as 2012 the self-appointed representatives of the T part of the LGBT on places like Reddit or Tumblr were urging that gay men be ‘thrown under the bus. It’s their turn down there.’ Their words.
So gay working class men aren’t included.
Remember, the people that want to exclude them aren’t exactly sane enough to distinguish males by class. You’re out, just by being male and gay.
They didn’t really stop to worry about race either, tho if you’re non-white, male and gay, you probably ought to stay silent if you want to stay inside their tent.
The fact that many of the people doing the excluding used to be well-off white males themselves, isn’t lost on anyone, tho it’s not polite to say it.
As long ago as 2012 the self-appointed representatives of the T part of the LGBT on places like Reddit or Tumblr were urging that gay men be ‘thrown under the bus. It’s their turn down there.’ Their words.
So gay working class men aren’t included.
Remember, the people that want to exclude them aren’t exactly sane enough to distinguish males by class. You’re out, just by being male and gay.
They didn’t really stop to worry about race either, tho if you’re non-white, male and gay, you probably ought to stay silent if you want to stay inside their tent.
The fact that many of the people doing the excluding used to be well-off white males themselves, isn’t lost on anyone, tho it’s not polite to say it.
You really will not get this unless you are working class.
There’s going to be a lot on here who will hate it because of that.
That’s probably true. But do you think Welsh can speak for his entire demographic or class?
(For the unsolicited record: I consider my overall background to be upper-lower middle class)
No I do not. I do not think he wants to speak for his entire class, but maybe he does.
For my part, it’s nice to hear from a working class man about working class issues in working class language.
Fair enough.
I agree. It would seem that some of the commentators would be in favour of this magazine employing a sensitivity reader. So many ad hominem attacks on the author and pompous pronouncements on the language he uses. Some concede somewhat sneeringly that Welsh makes some relevant points, as if they have discovered something of value in a skip. There is more that suggestion here of the white working class males needing to stay in their lane and if they do have something to say in an ‘elite’ publication, then to please refrain from drawing too much attention to class differences.
This is absolutely not working class language! Where do you get the idea that the working class speak in profanities? Some on here seem to have a very low and patronising view of working class people.
Some of the working class people I have known over my lifetime have brought up very well mannered children who spoke English properly. They realise that those things are important to get on in life.
Exactly.
Exactly.
The working class speak in nothing but profanities! Especially a group of blokes actually at work.
In my part of Yorkshire anyway…
He does not speak in profanities, he uses a few swear words. I am working class and we swear a bit. Is that okay?
I’m not sure what class I am but I do like to swear.
I’m not sure what class I am but I do like to swear.
Some of the working class people I have known over my lifetime have brought up very well mannered children who spoke English properly. They realise that those things are important to get on in life.
The working class speak in nothing but profanities! Especially a group of blokes actually at work.
In my part of Yorkshire anyway…
He does not speak in profanities, he uses a few swear words. I am working class and we swear a bit. Is that okay?
“Working class language”? How many working class people would be able to understand what the f.ck Welsh is talking about.
Indeed. And does he know?
I think you might be surprised at the number.
Indeed. And does he know?
I think you might be surprised at the number.
Carpenter here. No one of my colleagues uses that many expletives. Those words are saved to emphasize a point. Overused they just make a conversation a stream of blather
Depends on the crew in my experience, but I agree it’s not some fundamental part of being working class or a tradesman.
Depends on the crew in my experience, but I agree it’s not some fundamental part of being working class or a tradesman.
This is not remotely working class language, it’s middle class language dressed up to kind of look like it might be working class to those with little experience of the working class world.
Sure, there’s a decent amount of swearing around here at times, but plenty of little old ladies and old gentleman who might be working class, but still have manners.
The vocabulary used in this piece is far too extensive for anything like genuine conversations that happen on the streets around here, nobody really gives a damn about all these politically charged concepts like bourgeois, patriarchy, capitalism, etc. You also won’t find most wanting to get educated either, because they don’t want kids starting out in life saddled with more than £50-60k of debt when they could instead be earning themselves a wage equivalent to what most university leavers will be getting given how devalued most degrees are in the real world.
Whilst there are some beautiful literary lines in this article, it overall reads like the thoughts of a fairly run of the mill middle aged bloke, who in spite of a lifetime of immersion in middle class living thinks he’s better qualified to talk for working class people than those who remain working class for life because he vaguely recalls what it was like being working class in the year dot.
Your comment deserves many upvotes.
He’s Irvine ‘Trainspotting’ Welsh. Swearing is his badge of working class druggie honour, maaaan. It’s what he’s known for. Actually a smart man, when he’s not talking warmed-over drivel.
Your comment deserves many upvotes.
He’s Irvine ‘Trainspotting’ Welsh. Swearing is his badge of working class druggie honour, maaaan. It’s what he’s known for. Actually a smart man, when he’s not talking warmed-over drivel.
Fair enough.
I agree. It would seem that some of the commentators would be in favour of this magazine employing a sensitivity reader. So many ad hominem attacks on the author and pompous pronouncements on the language he uses. Some concede somewhat sneeringly that Welsh makes some relevant points, as if they have discovered something of value in a skip. There is more that suggestion here of the white working class males needing to stay in their lane and if they do have something to say in an ‘elite’ publication, then to please refrain from drawing too much attention to class differences.
This is absolutely not working class language! Where do you get the idea that the working class speak in profanities? Some on here seem to have a very low and patronising view of working class people.
“Working class language”? How many working class people would be able to understand what the f.ck Welsh is talking about.
Carpenter here. No one of my colleagues uses that many expletives. Those words are saved to emphasize a point. Overused they just make a conversation a stream of blather
This is not remotely working class language, it’s middle class language dressed up to kind of look like it might be working class to those with little experience of the working class world.
Sure, there’s a decent amount of swearing around here at times, but plenty of little old ladies and old gentleman who might be working class, but still have manners.
The vocabulary used in this piece is far too extensive for anything like genuine conversations that happen on the streets around here, nobody really gives a damn about all these politically charged concepts like bourgeois, patriarchy, capitalism, etc. You also won’t find most wanting to get educated either, because they don’t want kids starting out in life saddled with more than £50-60k of debt when they could instead be earning themselves a wage equivalent to what most university leavers will be getting given how devalued most degrees are in the real world.
Whilst there are some beautiful literary lines in this article, it overall reads like the thoughts of a fairly run of the mill middle aged bloke, who in spite of a lifetime of immersion in middle class living thinks he’s better qualified to talk for working class people than those who remain working class for life because he vaguely recalls what it was like being working class in the year dot.
Upper-lower middle class ?
Aye. Or “upper lower-middle-class”: some money and property (in the extended family), no elite professionals or major wealth; some contractors (like my dad and brother), farmers (my grandfather and uncle), salesmen, and middle-managers, mostly with high school only or bachelors degrees from not-too-selective schools (with a few exceptions, like Berkeley and a graduate degree or two–no doctorates). The label is intended as kind of a joke, but I think it’s pretty accurate too. How ’bout you if I might ask?
Aye. Or “upper lower-middle-class”: some money and property (in the extended family), no elite professionals or major wealth; some contractors (like my dad and brother), farmers (my grandfather and uncle), salesmen, and middle-managers, mostly with high school only or bachelors degrees from not-too-selective schools (with a few exceptions, like Berkeley and a graduate degree or two–no doctorates). The label is intended as kind of a joke, but I think it’s pretty accurate too. How ’bout you if I might ask?
No I do not. I do not think he wants to speak for his entire class, but maybe he does.
For my part, it’s nice to hear from a working class man about working class issues in working class language.
Upper-lower middle class ?
I am working class, born and bred, and I object to his language. Being working class is NOT characterised by foul language, this man actually showed his complete lack of understanding of the working class and our values.
Of course. It is easy to refuse to even try and put oneself in another’s shoes. The West is colonising itself. The Third Way.
That’s probably true. But do you think Welsh can speak for his entire demographic or class?
(For the unsolicited record: I consider my overall background to be upper-lower middle class)
I am working class, born and bred, and I object to his language. Being working class is NOT characterised by foul language, this man actually showed his complete lack of understanding of the working class and our values.
Of course. It is easy to refuse to even try and put oneself in another’s shoes. The West is colonising itself. The Third Way.
You really will not get this unless you are working class.
There’s going to be a lot on here who will hate it because of that.
Excellent thanks !! BUT the boys need to realize that they wont escape the system except by actually reading ! – and whereas us old b8ggers probably read a lot more – the younger gen dont . Even the ‘news’ is coming at us in short sound bits cos no one can read quickly anymore……so if they are too lazy or unmotivated to figure out the system that is screwing them they WILL end up cannon fodder or on the dole and thereby marginalized – so I dunno if there IS an answer to their plight…….
“Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets.
You know what I’ve noticed?
Nobody panics when things go “according to plan.” Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it’s all “part of the plan”.
But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds.
Introduce a little anarchy.
Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos.
[become] an agent of chaos.
Oh, and you know the thing about chaos?
It’s fair!“
Jibberish
He’s quoting the Joker from the Batman film The Dark Knight. It’s actually a great scene, and a great performance, but bears zero relevance here. Chuckling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylwMWpbv5Fk
He’s quoting the Joker from the Batman film The Dark Knight. It’s actually a great scene, and a great performance, but bears zero relevance here. Chuckling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylwMWpbv5Fk
Jibberish
“Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets.
You know what I’ve noticed?
Nobody panics when things go “according to plan.” Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it’s all “part of the plan”.
But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds.
Introduce a little anarchy.
Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos.
[become] an agent of chaos.
Oh, and you know the thing about chaos?
It’s fair!“
Excellent thanks !! BUT the boys need to realize that they wont escape the system except by actually reading ! – and whereas us old b8ggers probably read a lot more – the younger gen dont . Even the ‘news’ is coming at us in short sound bits cos no one can read quickly anymore……so if they are too lazy or unmotivated to figure out the system that is screwing them they WILL end up cannon fodder or on the dole and thereby marginalized – so I dunno if there IS an answer to their plight…….
Well that was a most enjoyable Saturday morning read down here in South Australia. Lots of things to agree with and plenty of other things to disagree with, just what I needed to think on during the hour long drive to Adelaide later this morning. Thanks.
Well that was a most enjoyable Saturday morning read down here in South Australia. Lots of things to agree with and plenty of other things to disagree with, just what I needed to think on during the hour long drive to Adelaide later this morning. Thanks.
Having read the first few paragraphs in this pile of horseshit, my feeling is that, as a white working male, I’d rather not have this idiot on my side.
To be fair to the author, he has huge amounts of sympathy for Black teenagers in London, and their oppression by the kneelers (sorry Peelers) of the London Police.
To be fair to the author, he has huge amounts of sympathy for Black teenagers in London, and their oppression by the kneelers (sorry Peelers) of the London Police.
Having read the first few paragraphs in this pile of horseshit, my feeling is that, as a white working male, I’d rather not have this idiot on my side.
The swearing doesn’t shock me ( as I think was the intention) but the condescending assumption by this opinionated witless soul that he speaks for all white working class males is risible. Unherd should do better that publishing click bait like this.
It’s by a rich, well-established, now-establishment entertainer. They LOVE articles like this, pure clickbait. Gives them fake ‘street cred’ too. Let’s face it, Welsh is washed up. He was relevant in the 90s, now he’s just an old man who hasn’t grown up cos he never had kids, and who still likes to go to raves at 63 years old. Embarrassing.
It’s by a rich, well-established, now-establishment entertainer. They LOVE articles like this, pure clickbait. Gives them fake ‘street cred’ too. Let’s face it, Welsh is washed up. He was relevant in the 90s, now he’s just an old man who hasn’t grown up cos he never had kids, and who still likes to go to raves at 63 years old. Embarrassing.
The swearing doesn’t shock me ( as I think was the intention) but the condescending assumption by this opinionated witless soul that he speaks for all white working class males is risible. Unherd should do better that publishing click bait like this.
My motto is “stereotypes save time,” so the recording of this article should have been in a Scottish accent to nail the rant.
My motto is “stereotypes save time,” so the recording of this article should have been in a Scottish accent to nail the rant.
Excellent! Those of us who have had the honour to know, work and live with white working class man, and enjoy their company, have a similar disdain and contempt for todays aspirant ” ooh what would the neighbours think” non swearing non smoking nu britain pond life, rubber spined bourgeois, who live in pathological paranoic fear of ever slipping back into ” working class”….. not that they would for a nanosecond be accepted!
Excellent! Those of us who have had the honour to know, work and live with white working class man, and enjoy their company, have a similar disdain and contempt for todays aspirant ” ooh what would the neighbours think” non swearing non smoking nu britain pond life, rubber spined bourgeois, who live in pathological paranoic fear of ever slipping back into ” working class”….. not that they would for a nanosecond be accepted!
How come Welsh can write f**k but I get censored for writing l***a. Apparently I can’t write f**k either. White working class male privilege!
I found that very ironic. Rules for thee, but not for me.
I found that very ironic. Rules for thee, but not for me.
How come Welsh can write f**k but I get censored for writing l***a. Apparently I can’t write f**k either. White working class male privilege!
This article is rubbish. Incoherent gibberish. All the swearing doesn’t save it.
This article is rubbish. Incoherent gibberish. All the swearing doesn’t save it.
How many lives did your glamorisation of working class Scots taking heroin cost,so far ? I recall one of the smack addicts in Trainspotting made a specific link between consciously seeking out addiction and the history of Sassenach oppression .Shame that the SNP have such a terrible record in keeping drug addicts north of the border alive .
They would rather they were all dead, along with all white working class males. The SNP are a very, very middle class Quisling phenomenon.
They would rather they were all dead, along with all white working class males. The SNP are a very, very middle class Quisling phenomenon.
How many lives did your glamorisation of working class Scots taking heroin cost,so far ? I recall one of the smack addicts in Trainspotting made a specific link between consciously seeking out addiction and the history of Sassenach oppression .Shame that the SNP have such a terrible record in keeping drug addicts north of the border alive .
Irvine Welsh, with his successful books and film and TV adaptations, is of course a big part of the entertainment industry – that enormously influential system manned by creative types who flatter themselves that they are opposed to (or outside and above) The System. To my mind that puts him in the category of problem rather than solution.
He opines:
Oh really? That’s not what I see. Anyway, isn’t it typical of the narrow arty mindset to see youth simply as a time of wild rebellion? I suppose rebellious youth v stale establishment provides plenty of basic story fodder – conflct being the essence of drama and all that.
Irvine Welsh, with his successful books and film and TV adaptations, is of course a big part of the entertainment industry – that enormously influential system manned by creative types who flatter themselves that they are opposed to (or outside and above) The System. To my mind that puts him in the category of problem rather than solution.
He opines:
Oh really? That’s not what I see. Anyway, isn’t it typical of the narrow arty mindset to see youth simply as a time of wild rebellion? I suppose rebellious youth v stale establishment provides plenty of basic story fodder – conflct being the essence of drama and all that.
This is just the latest rewriting of 1980s UK history on this site. The miners’ strike was *not* about “crushing organised labour”; it was about defending an elected government’s right to govern and defending workers’ right to work, and about defeating the unelected and extremist Scargill, and the gangster-trades-unionism he represented.
Irvine Welsh’s social media outputs are awash with bile at Brexit, so I find it literally impossible to imagine him as a working class champion of anything. He presents as a deeply unpleasant one novel wonder (I’ve read all of them for some reason. Trainspotting was a one-off.) I’m white, and working-class, and male. A foul-mouthed socialist is not my champion.
Joe Gormley warned people about Scargill but was ignored.
Joe Gormley warned people about Scargill but was ignored.
This is just the latest rewriting of 1980s UK history on this site. The miners’ strike was *not* about “crushing organised labour”; it was about defending an elected government’s right to govern and defending workers’ right to work, and about defeating the unelected and extremist Scargill, and the gangster-trades-unionism he represented.
Irvine Welsh’s social media outputs are awash with bile at Brexit, so I find it literally impossible to imagine him as a working class champion of anything. He presents as a deeply unpleasant one novel wonder (I’ve read all of them for some reason. Trainspotting was a one-off.) I’m white, and working-class, and male. A foul-mouthed socialist is not my champion.
Mr. Welsh dances around it but misses one important point. Probably, like most people he thinks humans are basically good and he doesn’t want to face it. I don’t, so I will. The neo-liberal world order, globalization and AI are creating a lot of unnecessary people. AI will expand the number of unnecessary people far beyond the white working class. So, the question we need to be asking is what will happen to unnecessary people in an era of dwindling resources or will the woke Left be on board with a holocaust if it is diverse, equitable and inclusive?
We have plenty of resources, to claim they are “dwindling” is appallingly dishonest.
By dwindling resources, I mostly meant food. Global warming is already affecting food production and as it gets worse in the next decades there will be widespread famine.
That is ridiculous.
More CO2 equals more food.
CO2 is vital to all life on earth.
And how much warming are you talking about ?.
It is less than 1 degree C since the industrial revolution. There is no evidence that the industrial revolution brought on global warming or climate change.
Only 3% of CO2 is of anthropogenic origin, the 97% in natural.
The climate grifters cannot keep on lying and be taken seriously.
The climate change scam is not driven by science or scientists, it is driven by politicians
who have been bought by powerful individuals and large corporations.
It’s nothing to do with CO2 or temperature or indeed science, it’s all about power and money.
Nailed it! It’s always been a scam, thankfully it’s unravelling has begun…
Thank you.
Seconded! A most erudite evisceration of this nonsense.
Thank you.
Seconded! A most erudite evisceration of this nonsense.
Exactly. Here’s the recipe:
Find something invisibleUse modelling to scare the publicProvide “experts” who know exactly what to doMake compliance virtuousMake your “rights” contingent on compliancePublish only research that agrees with the narrative (reward those that publish the narrative)Label questioners as dissenters and block their voiceWhere have I heard that before…?
Nailed it! It’s always been a scam, thankfully it’s unravelling has begun…
Exactly. Here’s the recipe:
Find something invisibleUse modelling to scare the publicProvide “experts” who know exactly what to doMake compliance virtuousMake your “rights” contingent on compliancePublish only research that agrees with the narrative (reward those that publish the narrative)Label questioners as dissenters and block their voiceWhere have I heard that before…?
That is ridiculous.
More CO2 equals more food.
CO2 is vital to all life on earth.
And how much warming are you talking about ?.
It is less than 1 degree C since the industrial revolution. There is no evidence that the industrial revolution brought on global warming or climate change.
Only 3% of CO2 is of anthropogenic origin, the 97% in natural.
The climate grifters cannot keep on lying and be taken seriously.
The climate change scam is not driven by science or scientists, it is driven by politicians
who have been bought by powerful individuals and large corporations.
It’s nothing to do with CO2 or temperature or indeed science, it’s all about power and money.
By dwindling resources, I mostly meant food. Global warming is already affecting food production and as it gets worse in the next decades there will be widespread famine.
We have plenty of resources, to claim they are “dwindling” is appallingly dishonest.
Mr. Welsh dances around it but misses one important point. Probably, like most people he thinks humans are basically good and he doesn’t want to face it. I don’t, so I will. The neo-liberal world order, globalization and AI are creating a lot of unnecessary people. AI will expand the number of unnecessary people far beyond the white working class. So, the question we need to be asking is what will happen to unnecessary people in an era of dwindling resources or will the woke Left be on board with a holocaust if it is diverse, equitable and inclusive?
I believe this article paints with a very broad brush and much detail has been ignored.
However I think there is some truth in the idea that ‘The Working Man fighting the Elite’ was a myth used by political parties. Myths need their Heroes, and Heroes who are rough around the edges are accepted.
But eventually the Heroes outstay their (political) welcome. Old Heroes just hang around, drinking and bothering the women (another myth).
New myths are born… we ‘all’ want good decent lives, but myths need ravening hordes of Orcs to be overcome and the White Working Man has been earmarked for that role. Mostly as shallow non-playing characters, which is no more truthful that their previous roles as Heroes.
I believe this article paints with a very broad brush and much detail has been ignored.
However I think there is some truth in the idea that ‘The Working Man fighting the Elite’ was a myth used by political parties. Myths need their Heroes, and Heroes who are rough around the edges are accepted.
But eventually the Heroes outstay their (political) welcome. Old Heroes just hang around, drinking and bothering the women (another myth).
New myths are born… we ‘all’ want good decent lives, but myths need ravening hordes of Orcs to be overcome and the White Working Man has been earmarked for that role. Mostly as shallow non-playing characters, which is no more truthful that their previous roles as Heroes.
Awful, uncouth citizen smithery. He doesn’t really give a crap about working class white blokes and his observations about the economy are puerile. And who exactly – like precisely – is he talking to? And how come he gets to call people fuckers whilst we just get to call him a w*****r
You got away with saying “fuckers”! Unherd’s Censorship seems quite arbritary.
You got away with saying “fuckers”! Unherd’s Censorship seems quite arbritary.
Awful, uncouth citizen smithery. He doesn’t really give a crap about working class white blokes and his observations about the economy are puerile. And who exactly – like precisely – is he talking to? And how come he gets to call people fuckers whilst we just get to call him a w*****r
“Hollywood has recycled the potty mouth of the ghetto into the boardroom, where the same tropes are now regurgitated in a decontextualised way, with defiant alienation replaced by entitled arrogance, under the depoliticised posturing of “attitude”.”
… says the highly successful author of a novel turned into a blockbuster film, in between bouts of casual profanity.
“Hollywood has recycled the potty mouth of the ghetto into the boardroom, where the same tropes are now regurgitated in a decontextualised way, with defiant alienation replaced by entitled arrogance, under the depoliticised posturing of “attitude”.”
… says the highly successful author of a novel turned into a blockbuster film, in between bouts of casual profanity.
The author apparently finds it necessary to use the word f**k twice within the first two paragraphs. I shall assume this indicates the level of intelligence involved so I didn’t read anymore. I’m a little bit surprised that unherd don’t have some kind of editor.
The author apparently finds it necessary to use the word f**k twice within the first two paragraphs. I shall assume this indicates the level of intelligence involved so I didn’t read anymore. I’m a little bit surprised that unherd don’t have some kind of editor.
It has always been class war. People just misunderstand it. The wealthy have always been the greedy aggressors, the working class the attacked defenders. The rich seem to have made the masses so confused and divided that (given the technological advances) they have probably won.
The very rich have become a cancer and a parasite on the people. Asset taxation now, things need to be rebalanced….. and let’s move to direct democracy, neuter them for good.
The working class in places like Luton, Rotherham, Dewsbury, have always been the attacked defenders of what the wealthy have been doing to the country…..
Very complex towns to choose as examples
Very complex towns to choose as examples
Oh, FFS.
Pathetic, isn’t it?
What a “playground” comment. Are you a child?
Any one who keeps on bleating about class war, is very, very tedious.
It’s 2023 for Christ’s sake.
Any one who keeps on bleating about class war, is very, very tedious.
It’s 2023 for Christ’s sake.
It really is.
What a “playground” comment. Are you a child?
It really is.
Thus spake the self-justified middle class prat. No need for a supporting argument, your self-inflation js more than enough
Yes, go on.
Wallow in your self inflicted misery.
You have the choice to feel inferior if you want to. No-one else cares.
You have a smugness and cruelty about you that you seem to think is clever. I don’t. But wallow on if you must.
You again.
You are “wallowing” in your leftist self pity.
“Wallow”.
Can’t you even find your own words ?
That is just an observation, it is not smugness
Get this:
I really don’t care what you think.
Leftie bozo.
Cruelty?
Ah, hurty words.
The hypocrisy of you commies is amazing
You again. You remark upon how the working class can and should be well-mannered. But you come across as a half-wit schoolyard bully with a sick heart. You have minimal evident intelligence, and next to zero kindness. I sure don’t like you, but I do pity you.
And I’m a centrist, not a leftist revolutionary you cheap trick idiot.
Your language gives you away as extreme far left.
Why deny it ?
You represent the ugly face hidden behind the mask of the “caring” far left.
Your language gives you away as extreme far left.
Why deny it ?
You represent the ugly face hidden behind the mask of the “caring” far left.
You really are a fool, judging people’s intelligence when you know you know nothing about them.
Why are you so upset over someone else’s opinion ?
You cannot dislike someone you don’t know. You don’t know me at all.
You are a far left unthinking drone that just goes with the flow, goes with the current thing.
You probably support the war with Russia that is a danger to us all, but like all far Leftists, you are caring.
It’s amusing.
Ah, hurty feelings.
Again.
Truly a waste of time engaging with you. You hurl insults and knee-jerk judgments then complain about turnabout as if it’s unfair play.
You never engage with your opponents on a respectful or even civil level for long but rant and pretend to slam dunk on people according to what you pretend to know…
“You really are a fool, judging people’s intelligence when you know you know nothing about them”–that’s what you do more than just about anyone here. You equate compassion with weakness and opinions that diverge from your own as self-evident errors. You go ad hominem in a heartbeat and lower the tone of nearly every board you ooze across with “What is wrong with people like you?!” etc. Ask that question into the mirror.
You are an extremist with a paranoid worldview and an inflated sense of your own awareness and insight. You vilify, demonize, and dismiss people left and right (or left and center). I don’t know how you truly are as a person in-person, nor you me, but your online act totally blows. Later dummy.
Haha! The prevailing tone of this board is reactionary, right-wing backslapping echo chamber, with you as one of the loudest performers. When a note of dissonance is introduced into the self-congratulatory chorus, you lose it, all the while pretending you don’t care what the dissenters think.
I’m an often-too-contrarian centrist, slightly left-leaning in some ways, slightly to the right in others. How would you characterize your own views, other than as “correct and awesome”?
I tend to push back against what I regard as extreme or un-nuanced views from any side. I live in Northern California and know what far left looks and sounds like most of the time–that ain’t me.
You make gross assumptions and insult me while expecting respect? I’ve tried to raise the tone of this exchange but you consistently go low.
I’m not beating war drums over the War in Ukraine but I don’t think Putin can just get away with his hostile actions. Do you admire Putin? How about Orbán? Trump?
Would you say of yourself that you are openminded, able to learn from someone you consider a fool as well as someone you already agree with? Can you admit when you’re wrong (assuming you ever are)?
No need to answer. But think about it if you get a moment. Then go back on flailing tilt and hurl some more childish abuse again. It’s amusing.
Calm down, you’ll give yourself an aneurysm.
I am calm. You’ll not successfully troll me ever again.
I am calm. You’ll not successfully troll me ever again.
Calm down, you’ll give yourself an aneurysm.
Truly a waste of time engaging with you. You hurl insults and knee-jerk judgments then complain about turnabout as if it’s unfair play.
You never engage with your opponents on a respectful or even civil level for long but rant and pretend to slam dunk on people according to what you pretend to know…
“You really are a fool, judging people’s intelligence when you know you know nothing about them”–that’s what you do more than just about anyone here. You equate compassion with weakness and opinions that diverge from your own as self-evident errors. You go ad hominem in a heartbeat and lower the tone of nearly every board you ooze across with “What is wrong with people like you?!” etc. Ask that question into the mirror.
You are an extremist with a paranoid worldview and an inflated sense of your own awareness and insight. You vilify, demonize, and dismiss people left and right (or left and center). I don’t know how you truly are as a person in-person, nor you me, but your online act totally blows. Later dummy.
Haha! The prevailing tone of this board is reactionary, right-wing backslapping echo chamber, with you as one of the loudest performers. When a note of dissonance is introduced into the self-congratulatory chorus, you lose it, all the while pretending you don’t care what the dissenters think.
I’m an often-too-contrarian centrist, slightly left-leaning in some ways, slightly to the right in others. How would you characterize your own views, other than as “correct and awesome”?
I tend to push back against what I regard as extreme or un-nuanced views from any side. I live in Northern California and know what far left looks and sounds like most of the time–that ain’t me.
You make gross assumptions and insult me while expecting respect? I’ve tried to raise the tone of this exchange but you consistently go low.
I’m not beating war drums over the War in Ukraine but I don’t think Putin can just get away with his hostile actions. Do you admire Putin? How about Orbán? Trump?
Would you say of yourself that you are openminded, able to learn from someone you consider a fool as well as someone you already agree with? Can you admit when you’re wrong (assuming you ever are)?
No need to answer. But think about it if you get a moment. Then go back on flailing tilt and hurl some more childish abuse again. It’s amusing.
And I’m a centrist, not a leftist revolutionary you cheap trick idiot.
You really are a fool, judging people’s intelligence when you know you know nothing about them.
Why are you so upset over someone else’s opinion ?
You cannot dislike someone you don’t know. You don’t know me at all.
You are a far left unthinking drone that just goes with the flow, goes with the current thing.
You probably support the war with Russia that is a danger to us all, but like all far Leftists, you are caring.
It’s amusing.
Ah, hurty feelings.
Again.
You again. You remark upon how the working class can and should be well-mannered. But you come across as a half-wit schoolyard bully with a sick heart. You have minimal evident intelligence, and next to zero kindness. I sure don’t like you, but I do pity you.
You again.
You are “wallowing” in your leftist self pity.
“Wallow”.
Can’t you even find your own words ?
That is just an observation, it is not smugness
Get this:
I really don’t care what you think.
Leftie bozo.
Cruelty?
Ah, hurty words.
The hypocrisy of you commies is amazing
You have a smugness and cruelty about you that you seem to think is clever. I don’t. But wallow on if you must.
No need for a supporting argument, no need to argue with fools.
Yes, go on.
Wallow in your self inflicted misery.
You have the choice to feel inferior if you want to. No-one else cares.
No need for a supporting argument, no need to argue with fools.
Pathetic, isn’t it?
Thus spake the self-justified middle class prat. No need for a supporting argument, your self-inflation js more than enough
Are you kidding? Direct democracy is how they will control you.
Not following you. Are you saying the wishes of the electorate are respected in this supposed representative democracy? Direct democracy is the only way to force our leaders to serve their electorate – they are not worthy of one ounce of trust
Not following you. Are you saying the wishes of the electorate are respected in this supposed representative democracy? Direct democracy is the only way to force our leaders to serve their electorate – they are not worthy of one ounce of trust
No. The various English victories in the Hundred Years War occurred because archers and knights fought together as one race. This was recognised by the Black Prince in a speech to the archers before Poitiers. The fact that knights and burgesses controlled taxation from 1295 demonstrated a level of discussion between monarch and ruled without compare in Europe. ” That which affects all must be consulted by all “.
In WW2 men for all classes fougth together, especially in Special Forces for example Lt Col David Sutherland MC and Bar invited Sergeant Dougie Pomford MM and Bar to his wedding. Sutherland was an Etonian son of a landowner, Pomford ran away to the circus at fourteen years of age. Lance Corporal speaks of Lt Colonel P Mayne DSO and Three Bars with the utmost respect.
One of WWII’s original SAS members Alec Borrie dies aged 98 | Daily Mail Online
Mayne( a lover of poetry ) objected to swearing and there was probably not a tougher warrior in the British Army in WW2.
E Shackleton was another incredibly tough leader who was also very polite.
What unites and divides people is whether one can trust people to take the correct decision, to inspire people to live, when confronted by death, especially when exhausted. These are not qualities developed in the world of offices.
The working class in places like Luton, Rotherham, Dewsbury, have always been the attacked defenders of what the wealthy have been doing to the country…..
Oh, FFS.
Are you kidding? Direct democracy is how they will control you.
No. The various English victories in the Hundred Years War occurred because archers and knights fought together as one race. This was recognised by the Black Prince in a speech to the archers before Poitiers. The fact that knights and burgesses controlled taxation from 1295 demonstrated a level of discussion between monarch and ruled without compare in Europe. ” That which affects all must be consulted by all “.
In WW2 men for all classes fougth together, especially in Special Forces for example Lt Col David Sutherland MC and Bar invited Sergeant Dougie Pomford MM and Bar to his wedding. Sutherland was an Etonian son of a landowner, Pomford ran away to the circus at fourteen years of age. Lance Corporal speaks of Lt Colonel P Mayne DSO and Three Bars with the utmost respect.
One of WWII’s original SAS members Alec Borrie dies aged 98 | Daily Mail Online
Mayne( a lover of poetry ) objected to swearing and there was probably not a tougher warrior in the British Army in WW2.
E Shackleton was another incredibly tough leader who was also very polite.
What unites and divides people is whether one can trust people to take the correct decision, to inspire people to live, when confronted by death, especially when exhausted. These are not qualities developed in the world of offices.
It has always been class war. People just misunderstand it. The wealthy have always been the greedy aggressors, the working class the attacked defenders. The rich seem to have made the masses so confused and divided that (given the technological advances) they have probably won.
The very rich have become a cancer and a parasite on the people. Asset taxation now, things need to be rebalanced….. and let’s move to direct democracy, neuter them for good.
I enjoyed the coronation.
I enjoyed the coronation.
The author displays a complete ignorance of trade and technology. People need the academic training so they can learn how to use new technology and then further develop it. Steam locomotives replaced canals, diesel replaced steam and electric replaced diesel. There are few jobs for builders of canal boats.
As technology advances few people are employed but making more valuable goods. A Swiss watch worth £5k weighs 0.1kg or £50K per Kg. 1 T is worth £50,000,000. A Tonne of steel , cold rolled is £714. Making Swiss watches produces a higher income but needs higher skills.
The politicians, civil servanst, un and semi skilled unions, education establishment and mediocre management failed to undestand the evolution of international trade and technology.
The author displays a complete ignorance of trade and technology. People need the academic training so they can learn how to use new technology and then further develop it. Steam locomotives replaced canals, diesel replaced steam and electric replaced diesel. There are few jobs for builders of canal boats.
As technology advances few people are employed but making more valuable goods. A Swiss watch worth £5k weighs 0.1kg or £50K per Kg. 1 T is worth £50,000,000. A Tonne of steel , cold rolled is £714. Making Swiss watches produces a higher income but needs higher skills.
The politicians, civil servanst, un and semi skilled unions, education establishment and mediocre management failed to undestand the evolution of international trade and technology.
Walsh is correct about one point – that white, working class males have been betrayed and neglected. He’s wrong about blacks being at the bottom of the pile. That place of honour goes to the Roma, just above them are white, working class males. Look at exam results, they are at the bottom. Black students are not homogenous. Where you are in the pile varies according to your ethnicity. Top of the pile are the Chinese followed by Indians. They do best academically and have the highest income. I am of course ignoring the very wealthy. They aren’t part of the pile. They are just happy to divide and rule. In Theodore Allen’s brilliant book ‘The invention of the White Race’ he describes how in Jacob’s Rebellion the Irish and Black indentured labourers nearly defeated the land owners in Virginia. The response of the land owners was to create division by telling/persuading the Irish that they were superior to the blacks simply because of the colour of the skin. That they were successful was a tragedy for both whites and blacks. Divide and rule. ‘Twas ever thus. MLK used the example of the slaves in Egypt who rather than turning on each other should unite against the slave owners.
We do need to understand what is going on and why if we’re not to becoming willing collaborators in our own oppression.
Walsh is correct about one point – that white, working class males have been betrayed and neglected. He’s wrong about blacks being at the bottom of the pile. That place of honour goes to the Roma, just above them are white, working class males. Look at exam results, they are at the bottom. Black students are not homogenous. Where you are in the pile varies according to your ethnicity. Top of the pile are the Chinese followed by Indians. They do best academically and have the highest income. I am of course ignoring the very wealthy. They aren’t part of the pile. They are just happy to divide and rule. In Theodore Allen’s brilliant book ‘The invention of the White Race’ he describes how in Jacob’s Rebellion the Irish and Black indentured labourers nearly defeated the land owners in Virginia. The response of the land owners was to create division by telling/persuading the Irish that they were superior to the blacks simply because of the colour of the skin. That they were successful was a tragedy for both whites and blacks. Divide and rule. ‘Twas ever thus. MLK used the example of the slaves in Egypt who rather than turning on each other should unite against the slave owners.
We do need to understand what is going on and why if we’re not to becoming willing collaborators in our own oppression.
Your opening sentence discounts everything that follows. I don’t believe you.
Your opening sentence discounts everything that follows. I don’t believe you.
I’m surprised that this novelist and playwright’s vocabulary is so impoverished that he has to resort to the ‘f’ word. I read no further. There is enough ugliness in the world as it is. UnHerd is better than this, surely.
I’m surprised that this novelist and playwright’s vocabulary is so impoverished that he has to resort to the ‘f’ word. I read no further. There is enough ugliness in the world as it is. UnHerd is better than this, surely.
Some of these comments…f**k me!
Some of these comments…f**k me!
Crude. What is unherd thinking posting such a piece ?
Agreed. I can’t stand edgelords.
Agreed. I can’t stand edgelords.
Crude. What is unherd thinking posting such a piece ?
Pretentious baloney. Your typical working man neither knows of nor cares about the “neoliberal state”.
Worse, the prissy little snivellers offended by his language perpetually hunting for offense. I hope they get called up for the forthcoming war. There’ll be plenty of offensive language about in the barracks..
Nobody minds a bit of effing and blinding, but this is gratuitous.
I agree
I agree
Nobody minds a bit of effing and blinding, but this is gratuitous.
Pretentious baloney. Your typical working man neither knows of nor cares about the “neoliberal state”.
Worse, the prissy little snivellers offended by his language perpetually hunting for offense. I hope they get called up for the forthcoming war. There’ll be plenty of offensive language about in the barracks..
What a fanny you are. A bitter and twisted total ducking rant. Filled with psycho babble, buzzwords and the themes that fill your addled cranium. A stream of billious consciousness! Typical Welsh prose, brilliant Trainspotting entry into my life, but sadly now, predictable, boring and foul. Your lazy nod to AI – “After all, a robot or a computer doesn’t need food…..” – really!? Oh, of course it runs on fresh air, us dumb asses not aware of that. Keep it up Irvine, you are one of a kind
What a fanny you are. A bitter and twisted total ducking rant. Filled with psycho babble, buzzwords and the themes that fill your addled cranium. A stream of billious consciousness! Typical Welsh prose, brilliant Trainspotting entry into my life, but sadly now, predictable, boring and foul. Your lazy nod to AI – “After all, a robot or a computer doesn’t need food…..” – really!? Oh, of course it runs on fresh air, us dumb asses not aware of that. Keep it up Irvine, you are one of a kind
What in heaven’s name are you talking about? An incomprehensible screed is not helpful in any way. Come back if you actually have something to contribute.
What in heaven’s name are you talking about? An incomprehensible screed is not helpful in any way. Come back if you actually have something to contribute.
What else would you expect from the author of a book packed with gratuitous violence and blatant criminality ?
What else would you expect from the author of a book packed with gratuitous violence and blatant criminality ?
That made for a good read.
The first seven paragraphs got me thinking that this might make for a humdinger of an essay, but the following three paragraphs amount to throw-away hoo-hah. The remainder of the essay reads like a useful and accessible retrospection of Trainspotting. Not bad.
That’s precisely what i meant when i referred to it as incoherent earlier, but couldn’t be bothered to dissect it.
That’s precisely what i meant when i referred to it as incoherent earlier, but couldn’t be bothered to dissect it.
That made for a good read.
The first seven paragraphs got me thinking that this might make for a humdinger of an essay, but the following three paragraphs amount to throw-away hoo-hah. The remainder of the essay reads like a useful and accessible retrospection of Trainspotting. Not bad.
“blueprint of white-collar fascist controllers or soulless tech nerds who need to get properly laid” – sounds like a 16 year old member of the SWP
“They blithely dispatched your forefathers to the killing fields, and they haven’t gained any greater appreciation or respect for you since” AMOF Eton schoolboys had the highest death rate of any group in the UK
“The continuing war of capital upon consciousness, on what makes us human, continues apace. In an economy that can produce everything at zero cost, the wealthy are coming to the end of their ability to control us by paying wages. Now, this can only be done through the steady erosion of human consciousness’ – There would be a kernel of truth in here, if he could just resist the temptation to equate ‘the system’ ….with bogey men capitalists. If only the world was that simple. It’s about modernity and the encroachments of both State (left) and Market (‘right’, social liberalism and neo/market liberalism on the communitarian world of family, liveliood,religion, place and tradition – and everyone of us (unless you’re a member of the Piriha, never use money and have no computer) is implicated. Not just the line of good and evil, but the attachment and driving force of this modernity runs through the heart and hearth of every one of us.
Honestly this was so disappointing….puerile
“blueprint of white-collar fascist controllers or soulless tech nerds who need to get properly laid” – sounds like a 16 year old member of the SWP
“They blithely dispatched your forefathers to the killing fields, and they haven’t gained any greater appreciation or respect for you since” AMOF Eton schoolboys had the highest death rate of any group in the UK
“The continuing war of capital upon consciousness, on what makes us human, continues apace. In an economy that can produce everything at zero cost, the wealthy are coming to the end of their ability to control us by paying wages. Now, this can only be done through the steady erosion of human consciousness’ – There would be a kernel of truth in here, if he could just resist the temptation to equate ‘the system’ ….with bogey men capitalists. If only the world was that simple. It’s about modernity and the encroachments of both State (left) and Market (‘right’, social liberalism and neo/market liberalism on the communitarian world of family, liveliood,religion, place and tradition – and everyone of us (unless you’re a member of the Piriha, never use money and have no computer) is implicated. Not just the line of good and evil, but the attachment and driving force of this modernity runs through the heart and hearth of every one of us.
Honestly this was so disappointing….puerile
If I didnt already know that this article is the work of someone whose claim to fame rests on writing filth about the scum of the Earth (Trainspotting) I’d soon have guessed it..
If I didnt already know that this article is the work of someone whose claim to fame rests on writing filth about the scum of the Earth (Trainspotting) I’d soon have guessed it..
irvine peaked 2 minutes after trainspotting; and that wasnt much of a peak. Black inner city men arent “at the bottom of the opportunity pile”. the stats are clear on that, unlike irvine.
irvine peaked 2 minutes after trainspotting; and that wasnt much of a peak. Black inner city men arent “at the bottom of the opportunity pile”. the stats are clear on that, unlike irvine.
I started reading thinking: working class workers are only viewed and assessed as economic units. And I agreed that rich people like it that way.
I started reading thinking: working class workers are only viewed and assessed as economic units. And I agreed that rich people like it that way.
I read a possible explanation of why the working class has been grouped with imperialism and the patriarchy in, ‘RunAway: Gregory Bateson, the Double Bind, and the Rise of Ecological Consciousness’ by Anthony Chaney
At the end of the book, it describes the black activist Stokely Carmichael’s speech at the Congress on ‘The Dielectrics of Liberation’ in London in 1967, where Stokely applied Marx’s material-structural analysis to the ability to construct and control language to control the psyche through institutionalized racism. This analysis would group the working class with imperialism and the patriarchy described in the above article. But, of course, orthodox Marxists would insist that analysis stays focused on the distribution of material resources, so they would not come to the same conclusion.
I read a possible explanation of why the working class has been grouped with imperialism and the patriarchy in, ‘RunAway: Gregory Bateson, the Double Bind, and the Rise of Ecological Consciousness’ by Anthony Chaney
At the end of the book, it describes the black activist Stokely Carmichael’s speech at the Congress on ‘The Dielectrics of Liberation’ in London in 1967, where Stokely applied Marx’s material-structural analysis to the ability to construct and control language to control the psyche through institutionalized racism. This analysis would group the working class with imperialism and the patriarchy described in the above article. But, of course, orthodox Marxists would insist that analysis stays focused on the distribution of material resources, so they would not come to the same conclusion.
Wow!!! Frickin loved this essay – if only because of the author’s willingness to use the eff word. It’s a thing with me.
I think the author nailed it though. He’s nailed the forces that are shaping the world today and what the response should be.
Couple quotes really stood out for me:
“Silver-spooned, daddy-issue Republicans, like Trump and his ilk, have long presented as comic-book versions of the most vulgar, dumbass versions of redneck USA.”
It’s possible to dislike Trump immensely and not have TDS.
“Then you realise: it’s not about thesis and antithesis. There’s always got to be room for a synthesis of different ideas and values.”
We are no longer to discuss issues in an adult way and discover the best solutions to our problems. As a result, we end up with our Covid response and net zero.
Wow!!! Frickin loved this essay – if only because of the author’s willingness to use the eff word. It’s a thing with me.
I think the author nailed it though. He’s nailed the forces that are shaping the world today and what the response should be.
Couple quotes really stood out for me:
“Silver-spooned, daddy-issue Republicans, like Trump and his ilk, have long presented as comic-book versions of the most vulgar, dumbass versions of redneck USA.”
It’s possible to dislike Trump immensely and not have TDS.
“Then you realise: it’s not about thesis and antithesis. There’s always got to be room for a synthesis of different ideas and values.”
We are no longer to discuss issues in an adult way and discover the best solutions to our problems. As a result, we end up with our Covid response and net zero.
the West is being colonised by global corporations and our own governments in a similar way they colonised other cultures. First is destroy the men and the family. Next is to destroy the women. Then get the kids and destroy them. Fairly transparent I think.
the West is being colonised by global corporations and our own governments in a similar way they colonised other cultures. First is destroy the men and the family. Next is to destroy the women. Then get the kids and destroy them. Fairly transparent I think.
Tate destroyed haha
Tate destroyed haha
Perhaps Unherd could commission writers to analyse problems and provide solutions?
Perhaps Unherd could commission writers to analyse problems and provide solutions?
Mind the “potty mouth” when you board this rant, folks.
Mind the “potty mouth” when you board this rant, folks.
Irvine seems very angry. But his article proves that just being angry isn’t enough.
Irvine seems very angry. But his article proves that just being angry isn’t enough.
Very powerful voice. And not one heard anywhere else, though that may change. Think of all the American sons dying in the ideological geo-theory wars of their ‘betters’ in DC. 1969 was the release of Credence Clearwater’s ‘Fortunate Son’. The Democrat political class are still deaf, while Don was a draft-dodger. Yet the most profoundly deaf were elite female politicos, Hillary Clinton and her late friend, Madeleine Albright. Madeleine had to be reminded by the military chief – military people often being from experience more dovish than civilians – that soldiers aren’t toys, but real people. Little she cared. More lately in Britain, you have the ludicrous scenes of your fortunate former PM throwing mock-grenades in training for the front lines in Ukraine. Voice vs. no voice.
Some folks are born, made to wave the flag / Ooh, their red, white and blue / And when the band plays “Hail to the Chief” / Ooh, they point the cannon at you, Lord
It ain’t me / It ain’t me / I ain’t no senator’s son, son / It ain’t me / It ain’t me / I ain’t no fortunate one
Very powerful voice. And not one heard anywhere else, though that may change. Think of all the American sons dying in the ideological geo-theory wars of their ‘betters’ in DC. 1969 was the release of Credence Clearwater’s ‘Fortunate Son’. The Democrat political class are still deaf, while Don was a draft-dodger. Yet the most profoundly deaf were elite female politicos, Hillary Clinton and her late friend, Madeleine Albright. Madeleine had to be reminded by the military chief – military people often being from experience more dovish than civilians – that soldiers aren’t toys, but real people. Little she cared. More lately in Britain, you have the ludicrous scenes of your fortunate former PM throwing mock-grenades in training for the front lines in Ukraine. Voice vs. no voice.
Some folks are born, made to wave the flag / Ooh, their red, white and blue / And when the band plays “Hail to the Chief” / Ooh, they point the cannon at you, Lord
It ain’t me / It ain’t me / I ain’t no senator’s son, son / It ain’t me / It ain’t me / I ain’t no fortunate one
Andrew Tate is far from pathetic.
He is villified by the establishment because he speaks ( for some ) uncomfortable truths.
What truths might they be? Please be specific.
Tate will tell you that the establishment has declared masculinity as toxic and that men are being feminised.
That is very true, right ?
Check it out for yourself.
I will not do your research for you.
You won’t do research at all. I seriously question whether you can even read at an advanced level.
I do my own research.
You do not.
Why would I care what an over emotional drone like you thinks ?
I cannot tell if you are male of female such is your hysterical attitude.
You follow off the shelf leftist ideas that you accept blindly.
I doubt that you have ever had an original thought in your life. It is clear that you are incapable of thinking for yourself.
As I have said, I really don’t care what you think, you are a sad individual.
Cool tough guy. Your constant, belittling replies really establish how little you care. Name some publications you consult when you do what you call your own research. As I see it, you just belong to an alternate herd. I’m a pretty independent thinker, always have been. Now, I’m not immune to some forms of group think or persuasion, and neither are you–that’s for sure. But I tend to examine and question my initial assumptions and conclusions as a matter of course and don’t write off everyone who disagrees with me as a villain or idiot. You might very well be pretty smart in an IQ sense, but your attitude and style makes the world a stupider, meaner place. Perhaps you’ll take that as a compliment.
I really didn’t expect you to come back again.
I also find it strange that you don’t get that I have been baiting you for fun.
It is not serious, I would be the first to admit that I really don’t know you at all, just as you don’t know me.
I find it strange that so many people are so ready to take offence, as you are.
What I would say to anyone, is don’t go on a public forum if you cannot take criticism and then feel the need to whine about it.
If you insult other posters, expect some comeback.
Our enemy is the establishment, the government and the corrupt and bought and paid for media which is lying to us about everything from climate change, the COOF and now the great money laundering exercise, which is the US’s proxy war against Russia.
Peace.
I can take it, just not without any reaction or passion, like some bored troll with psychopathic tendencies. You jumped in against my comment to another subscriber, with sputtering contempt I never showed. I did say that I think you and those who belong to your plandemic herd have a massive, unidirectional blind spot when it comes to vaccines and other Covid policy, even when they are otherwise reasonable. You’re right that I could have been more courteous or softened my tone, but it’s pretty hilarious for you to call for that.
You claim to to care about anti-establismentarianism but lower the tone and turn things into a digital spitball fight on a website where most people bring some measure of substance and respect to the screen. I’ll leave it there, and try to let you have your fun from now on, if fun is what you call it. Take the last word if you’d rather.
May peace be with you too, and with all of us.
To be fair you are not beyond throwing around insults yourself.
That’s true. In looking back over this thread to see how it metastasized I saw that I provoked this “fun” exchange more than I wanted to admit, and I’ve done that with other subscribers too. I see most of my own remarks not as mere insults without substance or corroboration, but I’m sure I’m not objective on that front–and I can’t expect my “targets” to see it that way. You struck a raw nerve or two.
See ya on the boards.
That’s true. In looking back over this thread to see how it metastasized I saw that I provoked this “fun” exchange more than I wanted to admit, and I’ve done that with other subscribers too. I see most of my own remarks not as mere insults without substance or corroboration, but I’m sure I’m not objective on that front–and I can’t expect my “targets” to see it that way. You struck a raw nerve or two.
See ya on the boards.
To be fair you are not beyond throwing around insults yourself.
I can take it, just not without any reaction or passion, like some bored troll with psychopathic tendencies. You jumped in against my comment to another subscriber, with sputtering contempt I never showed. I did say that I think you and those who belong to your plandemic herd have a massive, unidirectional blind spot when it comes to vaccines and other Covid policy, even when they are otherwise reasonable. You’re right that I could have been more courteous or softened my tone, but it’s pretty hilarious for you to call for that.
You claim to to care about anti-establismentarianism but lower the tone and turn things into a digital spitball fight on a website where most people bring some measure of substance and respect to the screen. I’ll leave it there, and try to let you have your fun from now on, if fun is what you call it. Take the last word if you’d rather.
May peace be with you too, and with all of us.
I really didn’t expect you to come back again.
I also find it strange that you don’t get that I have been baiting you for fun.
It is not serious, I would be the first to admit that I really don’t know you at all, just as you don’t know me.
I find it strange that so many people are so ready to take offence, as you are.
What I would say to anyone, is don’t go on a public forum if you cannot take criticism and then feel the need to whine about it.
If you insult other posters, expect some comeback.
Our enemy is the establishment, the government and the corrupt and bought and paid for media which is lying to us about everything from climate change, the COOF and now the great money laundering exercise, which is the US’s proxy war against Russia.
Peace.
Cool tough guy. Your constant, belittling replies really establish how little you care. Name some publications you consult when you do what you call your own research. As I see it, you just belong to an alternate herd. I’m a pretty independent thinker, always have been. Now, I’m not immune to some forms of group think or persuasion, and neither are you–that’s for sure. But I tend to examine and question my initial assumptions and conclusions as a matter of course and don’t write off everyone who disagrees with me as a villain or idiot. You might very well be pretty smart in an IQ sense, but your attitude and style makes the world a stupider, meaner place. Perhaps you’ll take that as a compliment.
I do my own research.
You do not.
Why would I care what an over emotional drone like you thinks ?
I cannot tell if you are male of female such is your hysterical attitude.
You follow off the shelf leftist ideas that you accept blindly.
I doubt that you have ever had an original thought in your life. It is clear that you are incapable of thinking for yourself.
As I have said, I really don’t care what you think, you are a sad individual.
You won’t do research at all. I seriously question whether you can even read at an advanced level.
Tate will tell you that the establishment has declared masculinity as toxic and that men are being feminised.
That is very true, right ?
Check it out for yourself.
I will not do your research for you.
He’s a vile excuse for a man. No honour. No dignity. No empathy
No, he’s not. He simply says things that some people don’t want to hear.
No, he’s not. He simply says things that some people don’t want to hear.
What truths might they be? Please be specific.
He’s a vile excuse for a man. No honour. No dignity. No empathy
Andrew Tate is far from pathetic.
He is villified by the establishment because he speaks ( for some ) uncomfortable truths.
I could only stand to wade thru the first 4 or 5 paragraphs. Did it get any better? or just another vulgar, ignorant rant?
I could only stand to wade thru the first 4 or 5 paragraphs. Did it get any better? or just another vulgar, ignorant rant?
At least in the US, Mr. Welsh has it at least partly wrong. White working-class tradesmen are revered and feared here. They have skills that AI can’t replace, and if they all went away tomorrow, the lights would go out. Toilets wouldn’t flush. Machinery would cease to produce. The US would grind to a halt. And in the states, they own about twelve guns each.
They are ridiculed by the elite because they shop at Walmart and are prone to being overweight, but when the toilet won’t flush, there’s no more important man in your life.
If you want to see a rich man grovel, watch him try to hire a plumber, an electrician or appliance repairman. They might say yes, but they might say no.
..
Aside from totally agreeing with this,
“ Now a noncey, supermarket transgression has gained a foothold, appealing to an entire lost generation of anxious, isolated teenage bedroom wankers, brimming with the sleazy narratives of onscreen porn.”
This illustrates exactly why Welsh is one of the greatest living writers. What a way with words.
One of the ‘greatest living writers’? Are you joking? Or trolling? That was stuff any 17-year-old hack could have come up with; you see stuff like it on social media everywhere. And Welsh has never grown up.
One of the ‘greatest living writers’? Are you joking? Or trolling? That was stuff any 17-year-old hack could have come up with; you see stuff like it on social media everywhere. And Welsh has never grown up.
Aside from totally agreeing with this,
“ Now a noncey, supermarket transgression has gained a foothold, appealing to an entire lost generation of anxious, isolated teenage bedroom wankers, brimming with the sleazy narratives of onscreen porn.”
This illustrates exactly why Welsh is one of the greatest living writers. What a way with words.
These intersectionalist types deserve to be shot.
These intersectionalist types deserve to be shot.
Oh for f**k’s sake, what a shower of prissy f*****g Home Counties arseholes in the comments. Interesting article.
You don’t know where these people come from.
Many commentators come from outside the UK.
You don’t know where these people come from.
Many commentators come from outside the UK.
Oh for f**k’s sake, what a shower of prissy f*****g Home Counties arseholes in the comments. Interesting article.
If Irvine Welsh doesn’t like what Britain has become for white working-class men, he is welcome to go to Poland or Hungary where he will feel more at home. He won’t be missed.
Why should he? The essay was crap but why on earth should he go to Poland? He /we could instead fight for a cohesive culture that embraces nation, community, tradition, place-boundedness…the dignity of work….and presumably the rejoiner crowd will then make a big hoo ha about racism, little England etc….Presumably, we can just tell them to b****r off likewise….to New Zealand? or Portland Oregon? Why should we accept what Britain has become and where it is going? I don’t accept it. I don’t like it. There are things worth reversing, things worth fighting for.
If you don’t like what Britain has become for woke anti-white racist trans-paedo maskurbating Remoaners, you’re welcome to go to San Francisco or Portland where you will feel more at home. You won’t be missed.
Why should he? The essay was crap but why on earth should he go to Poland? He /we could instead fight for a cohesive culture that embraces nation, community, tradition, place-boundedness…the dignity of work….and presumably the rejoiner crowd will then make a big hoo ha about racism, little England etc….Presumably, we can just tell them to b****r off likewise….to New Zealand? or Portland Oregon? Why should we accept what Britain has become and where it is going? I don’t accept it. I don’t like it. There are things worth reversing, things worth fighting for.
If you don’t like what Britain has become for woke anti-white racist trans-paedo maskurbating Remoaners, you’re welcome to go to San Francisco or Portland where you will feel more at home. You won’t be missed.
If Irvine Welsh doesn’t like what Britain has become for white working-class men, he is welcome to go to Poland or Hungary where he will feel more at home. He won’t be missed.