Bourbons versus Garibaldi. Something to think about over tea.
Chris Twine
11 months ago
This was a really interesting piece, but I wonder if both the central, apparently competing claims can be simultaneously true. There can be no doubt that the North required the resources of the whole peninsula, including the South, to help resist the Austrians and set up the nation-state. Whether this was “cynical” or “statesmanlike” is where the different appears. Equally, bands of brigands can also be legitimate expressions of local disaffection with the “urban centre” and sources of identity and pride – whilst also being brutal thugs and criminals. The Risorgimento was neither inherently a “good” or “bad” period and I am unsure what merit there is for either revisionists or traditionalists to present it in these terms. But that seems to be the way the culture wars in history are heading.
Austria was largely beaten by 1860. Tens of thousands of southerners had volunteered to fight with the north against Austria. There were wild celebrations in Naples in 1859 when Austria was beaten. It was perceived as an Italian war, not specifically a Piemontese war. Etc. etc. Obviously a very complex story, not to be simplified. Pinto’s book is excellent.
Indeed, the French, the Piedmontese, many thousands of volunteers from all over Italy, Garibaldi himself. The problem with the revisionist position is not that it is unhappy with the Risorgimento, it is that it tells stories that are manifestly untrue, exploiting an unease and resentment in the South with a false narrative of the past.
Indeed, the French, the Piedmontese, many thousands of volunteers from all over Italy, Garibaldi himself. The problem with the revisionist position is not that it is unhappy with the Risorgimento, it is that it tells stories that are manifestly untrue, exploiting an unease and resentment in the South with a false narrative of the past.
Austria was largely beaten by 1860. Tens of thousands of southerners had volunteered to fight with the north against Austria. There were wild celebrations in Naples in 1859 when Austria was beaten. It was perceived as an Italian war, not specifically a Piemontese war. Etc. etc. Obviously a very complex story, not to be simplified. Pinto’s book is excellent.
Chris Twine
11 months ago
This was a really interesting piece, but I wonder if both the central, apparently competing claims can be simultaneously true. There can be no doubt that the North required the resources of the whole peninsula, including the South, to help resist the Austrians and set up the nation-state. Whether this was “cynical” or “statesmanlike” is where the different appears. Equally, bands of brigands can also be legitimate expressions of local disaffection with the “urban centre” and sources of identity and pride – whilst also being brutal thugs and criminals. The Risorgimento was neither inherently a “good” or “bad” period and I am unsure what merit there is for either revisionists or traditionalists to present it in these terms. But that seems to be the way the culture wars in history are heading.
Last edited 11 months ago by Chris Twine
Jeremy Bray
11 months ago
It is the nature of things that the prosperity of national regions will not be equally distributed. The poorer region’s citizens will look for reasons why they are worse off outside factors of geography or regional character and will seek to blame the more prosperous region for their own less successful state.
In these circumstances they will be ripe for propagandist versions of history to confirm their prejudices and there will be revisionist historians happy to supply a false narrative to pander to those prejudices. The historians may be motivated by the money to be made by peddling a prejudicial version of history or a neo-Marxist desire to subvert the official history and hence the state and culture itself or a happy combination of both or even the motive attributed by the author – the desire to subvert the state in favour of some larger entity such as the concept of Europe as a state or a global state.
The term “national regions” can be substituted with “ethnic groups” and this statement is even more true.
Last edited 11 months ago by J. Hale
Jeremy Bray
11 months ago
It is the nature of things that the prosperity of national regions will not be equally distributed. The poorer region’s citizens will look for reasons why they are worse off outside factors of geography or regional character and will seek to blame the more prosperous region for their own less successful state.
In these circumstances they will be ripe for propagandist versions of history to confirm their prejudices and there will be revisionist historians happy to supply a false narrative to pander to those prejudices. The historians may be motivated by the money to be made by peddling a prejudicial version of history or a neo-Marxist desire to subvert the official history and hence the state and culture itself or a happy combination of both or even the motive attributed by the author – the desire to subvert the state in favour of some larger entity such as the concept of Europe as a state or a global state.
Christopher Barclay
11 months ago
No mention of the Mafia which developed as an organisation countering the growing control of Sicily exerted by the new nation state of Italy?
It’s funny how the Neo-Bourbonists ignore how their sentiments are matched in the North of Italy where many wish that the South of Italy would go its own way and stop being a burden on the North. This sentiment was represented by its own political party, La Lega del Nord.
There were already criminal organizations opposed to rule from Naples… the Neo Bourbons do not ignore secessionist sentiments in the north, though these have declined significantly.
There were already criminal organizations opposed to rule from Naples… the Neo Bourbons do not ignore secessionist sentiments in the north, though these have declined significantly.
Christopher Barclay
11 months ago
No mention of the Mafia which developed as an organisation countering the growing control of Sicily exerted by the new nation state of Italy?
It’s funny how the Neo-Bourbonists ignore how their sentiments are matched in the North of Italy where many wish that the South of Italy would go its own way and stop being a burden on the North. This sentiment was represented by its own political party, La Lega del Nord.
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
11 months ago
Victimhood, the highest state to which mankind can aspire
Victimhood, the highest state to which mankind can aspire
Steven Campbell
11 months ago
Good article by one of my favorite commentators on the life of an expat in Italia. Thank you Tim.
I was taught the lesson of good and evil in History by a leftist Jesuit in Grad School. There is no right or wrong in History, he said, only horrible examples.
Occasional good ones, of whom Garibaldi is perhaps one.
Steven Campbell
11 months ago
Good article by one of my favorite commentators on the life of an expat in Italia. Thank you Tim.
I was taught the lesson of good and evil in History by a leftist Jesuit in Grad School. There is no right or wrong in History, he said, only horrible examples.
harry storm
11 months ago
The 430,000 sq miles for the Kingdom of 2 Sicilies is way way off. All of Italy today comprises about 116,000 sq miles.
Sicily the largest island in the Mediterranean (just) is about 10,000 square miles.
harry storm
11 months ago
The 430,000 sq miles for the Kingdom of 2 Sicilies is way way off. All of Italy today comprises about 116,000 sq miles.
Last edited 11 months ago by harry storm
Milton Gibbon
11 months ago
A very interesting article. While I dont begrudge the Italian state per se (no skin in the game) it does seem even from the article that the south was conquered by the north and then suffered a breakdown of law and order that had been present under the old (ancien) regime. Perhaps I am reading it wrong but it does lend credence to secessionist forces if the Italian state was imposed by force in the beginning. The same is true of the America revolutionary war or Prussian unification – ordinary people finding themselves waking up one day as members of a new state created by force. Very unlike the union of crowns in the UK (100 years of unofficial union before formal adoption).
Tens of thousands of people in the south fought for the risorgimento and the overthrow of the Bourbon regime. To say it was ‘imposed’ is simplistic.
Milton Gibbon
11 months ago
A very interesting article. While I dont begrudge the Italian state per se (no skin in the game) it does seem even from the article that the south was conquered by the north and then suffered a breakdown of law and order that had been present under the old (ancien) regime. Perhaps I am reading it wrong but it does lend credence to secessionist forces if the Italian state was imposed by force in the beginning. The same is true of the America revolutionary war or Prussian unification – ordinary people finding themselves waking up one day as members of a new state created by force. Very unlike the union of crowns in the UK (100 years of unofficial union before formal adoption).
Fafa Fafa
11 months ago
I see it as a cautionary tale for the reparations movement in America.
Fafa Fafa
11 months ago
I see it as a cautionary tale for the reparations movement in America.
Charles Stanhope
11 months ago
“Africa comincia a Roma” or Africa begins in Rome.
Coulden’t possibly comment as one of my ancestors Giuseppe Samengo was one of Garibaldi’s tenente!
Charles Stanhope
11 months ago
“Africa comincia a Roma” or Africa begins in Rome.
Josh Allan
11 months ago
In so many contemporary conflicts, the feeling that one is on the “right side of history”, seems to justify a wilful blindness.
Certainly one of the most obnoxious phrases doing the rounds at the moment.
Very interesting piece on a subject about which I’m shamefully ignorant. Parks is a huge service to Italian translation, too. If you ever find yourself reading a book originally published in Italian, odds are it’s Parks who’s done the traduzione (if it isn’t Weaver, that is).
Last edited 11 months ago by Josh Allan
Josh Allan
11 months ago
In so many contemporary conflicts, the feeling that one is on the “right side of history”, seems to justify a wilful blindness.
Certainly one of the most obnoxious phrases doing the rounds at the moment.
Very interesting piece on a subject about which I’m shamefully ignorant. Parks is a huge service to Italian translation, too. If you ever find yourself reading a book originally published in Italian, odds are it’s Parks who’s done the traduzione (if it isn’t Weaver, that is).
Last edited 11 months ago by Josh Allan
j watson
11 months ago
History is complex and when you dig into the different perspectives and detailed facts it’s never quite as clear cut as the myths we grew up with.
Is that a problem or just indicative of how far we have come in self confidence that we can discuss and debate these issues, and thus a source of pride?
That does not mean counter narratives shouldn’t undergo serious scrutiny and be called out if weakly based. Twaddle must be labelled so. But we also risk not learning the true lessons from history by over-simplification.
j watson
11 months ago
History is complex and when you dig into the different perspectives and detailed facts it’s never quite as clear cut as the myths we grew up with.
Is that a problem or just indicative of how far we have come in self confidence that we can discuss and debate these issues, and thus a source of pride?
That does not mean counter narratives shouldn’t undergo serious scrutiny and be called out if weakly based. Twaddle must be labelled so. But we also risk not learning the true lessons from history by over-simplification.
Malcolm Knott
11 months ago
Many people on the far left get their kicks from demolishing patriotic heroes. See, for example, the toppling of Abraham Lincoln’s statues in Portland. I don’t know why they do this but it’s obviously not driven by scholarship. Indeed it often involves a gross distortion of the historical record. Perhaps they have ‘dad issues.’
Last edited 11 months ago by Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
11 months ago
Many people on the far left get their kicks from demolishing patriotic heroes. See, for example, the toppling of Abraham Lincoln’s statues in Portland. I don’t know why they do this but it’s obviously not driven by scholarship. Indeed it often involves a gross distortion of the historical record. Perhaps they have ‘dad issues.’
Last edited 11 months ago by Malcolm Knott
Charles Stanhope
11 months ago
The late A.J.P.T Taylor described Garibaldi as: “the only admirable figure in modern history”.*
(* Possibly in one of his famous TV Lectures in the late 60’s.)
Charles Stanhope
11 months ago
The late A.J.P.T Taylor described Garibaldi as: “the only admirable figure in modern history”.*
(* Possibly in one of his famous TV Lectures in the late 60’s.)
Bourbons versus Garibaldi. Something to think about over tea.
Your comment takes the biscuit!
Is that Bourbon “on the rocks” or “straight up”?
The correct American term for “straight up” bourbon is “neat”. Although younger servers may require some gentle education.
Thank you.
Thank you.
The correct American term for “straight up” bourbon is “neat”. Although younger servers may require some gentle education.
Your comment takes the biscuit!
Is that Bourbon “on the rocks” or “straight up”?
Bourbons versus Garibaldi. Something to think about over tea.
This was a really interesting piece, but I wonder if both the central, apparently competing claims can be simultaneously true. There can be no doubt that the North required the resources of the whole peninsula, including the South, to help resist the Austrians and set up the nation-state. Whether this was “cynical” or “statesmanlike” is where the different appears. Equally, bands of brigands can also be legitimate expressions of local disaffection with the “urban centre” and sources of identity and pride – whilst also being brutal thugs and criminals. The Risorgimento was neither inherently a “good” or “bad” period and I am unsure what merit there is for either revisionists or traditionalists to present it in these terms. But that seems to be the way the culture wars in history are heading.
Well put.
Austria was largely beaten by 1860. Tens of thousands of southerners had volunteered to fight with the north against Austria. There were wild celebrations in Naples in 1859 when Austria was beaten. It was perceived as an Italian war, not specifically a Piemontese war. Etc. etc. Obviously a very complex story, not to be simplified. Pinto’s book is excellent.
“Austria was largely beaten by 1860.”
Yes by the French, who even took Garibaldi’s home town (Nice) as booty.
Indeed, the French, the Piedmontese, many thousands of volunteers from all over Italy, Garibaldi himself. The problem with the revisionist position is not that it is unhappy with the Risorgimento, it is that it tells stories that are manifestly untrue, exploiting an unease and resentment in the South with a false narrative of the past.
Indeed, the French, the Piedmontese, many thousands of volunteers from all over Italy, Garibaldi himself. The problem with the revisionist position is not that it is unhappy with the Risorgimento, it is that it tells stories that are manifestly untrue, exploiting an unease and resentment in the South with a false narrative of the past.
“Austria was largely beaten by 1860.”
Yes by the French, who even took Garibaldi’s home town (Nice) as booty.
Well put.
Austria was largely beaten by 1860. Tens of thousands of southerners had volunteered to fight with the north against Austria. There were wild celebrations in Naples in 1859 when Austria was beaten. It was perceived as an Italian war, not specifically a Piemontese war. Etc. etc. Obviously a very complex story, not to be simplified. Pinto’s book is excellent.
This was a really interesting piece, but I wonder if both the central, apparently competing claims can be simultaneously true. There can be no doubt that the North required the resources of the whole peninsula, including the South, to help resist the Austrians and set up the nation-state. Whether this was “cynical” or “statesmanlike” is where the different appears. Equally, bands of brigands can also be legitimate expressions of local disaffection with the “urban centre” and sources of identity and pride – whilst also being brutal thugs and criminals. The Risorgimento was neither inherently a “good” or “bad” period and I am unsure what merit there is for either revisionists or traditionalists to present it in these terms. But that seems to be the way the culture wars in history are heading.
It is the nature of things that the prosperity of national regions will not be equally distributed. The poorer region’s citizens will look for reasons why they are worse off outside factors of geography or regional character and will seek to blame the more prosperous region for their own less successful state.
In these circumstances they will be ripe for propagandist versions of history to confirm their prejudices and there will be revisionist historians happy to supply a false narrative to pander to those prejudices. The historians may be motivated by the money to be made by peddling a prejudicial version of history or a neo-Marxist desire to subvert the official history and hence the state and culture itself or a happy combination of both or even the motive attributed by the author – the desire to subvert the state in favour of some larger entity such as the concept of Europe as a state or a global state.
The term “national regions” can be substituted with “ethnic groups” and this statement is even more true.
The term “national regions” can be substituted with “ethnic groups” and this statement is even more true.
It is the nature of things that the prosperity of national regions will not be equally distributed. The poorer region’s citizens will look for reasons why they are worse off outside factors of geography or regional character and will seek to blame the more prosperous region for their own less successful state.
In these circumstances they will be ripe for propagandist versions of history to confirm their prejudices and there will be revisionist historians happy to supply a false narrative to pander to those prejudices. The historians may be motivated by the money to be made by peddling a prejudicial version of history or a neo-Marxist desire to subvert the official history and hence the state and culture itself or a happy combination of both or even the motive attributed by the author – the desire to subvert the state in favour of some larger entity such as the concept of Europe as a state or a global state.
No mention of the Mafia which developed as an organisation countering the growing control of Sicily exerted by the new nation state of Italy?
It’s funny how the Neo-Bourbonists ignore how their sentiments are matched in the North of Italy where many wish that the South of Italy would go its own way and stop being a burden on the North. This sentiment was represented by its own political party, La Lega del Nord.
There were already criminal organizations opposed to rule from Naples… the Neo Bourbons do not ignore secessionist sentiments in the north, though these have declined significantly.
There were already criminal organizations opposed to rule from Naples… the Neo Bourbons do not ignore secessionist sentiments in the north, though these have declined significantly.
No mention of the Mafia which developed as an organisation countering the growing control of Sicily exerted by the new nation state of Italy?
It’s funny how the Neo-Bourbonists ignore how their sentiments are matched in the North of Italy where many wish that the South of Italy would go its own way and stop being a burden on the North. This sentiment was represented by its own political party, La Lega del Nord.
Victimhood, the highest state to which mankind can aspire
Apotheosis itself!
Apotheosis itself!
Victimhood, the highest state to which mankind can aspire
Good article by one of my favorite commentators on the life of an expat in Italia. Thank you Tim.
I was taught the lesson of good and evil in History by a leftist Jesuit in Grad School. There is no right or wrong in History, he said, only horrible examples.
Occasional good ones, of whom Garibaldi is perhaps one.
Occasional good ones, of whom Garibaldi is perhaps one.
Good article by one of my favorite commentators on the life of an expat in Italia. Thank you Tim.
I was taught the lesson of good and evil in History by a leftist Jesuit in Grad School. There is no right or wrong in History, he said, only horrible examples.
The 430,000 sq miles for the Kingdom of 2 Sicilies is way way off. All of Italy today comprises about 116,000 sq miles.
Sorry, yes, the comma has slipped! Should be 43,000 square miles.
It says 43,000 in the article, not 430,000
It does now, because I asked them to correct it. But Harry was right to call it out. Many thanks to him.
It does now, because I asked them to correct it. But Harry was right to call it out. Many thanks to him.
Thats the size of France!
Sicily the largest island in the Mediterranean (just) is about 10,000 square miles.
Sorry, yes, the comma has slipped! Should be 43,000 square miles.
It says 43,000 in the article, not 430,000
Thats the size of France!
Sicily the largest island in the Mediterranean (just) is about 10,000 square miles.
The 430,000 sq miles for the Kingdom of 2 Sicilies is way way off. All of Italy today comprises about 116,000 sq miles.
A very interesting article. While I dont begrudge the Italian state per se (no skin in the game) it does seem even from the article that the south was conquered by the north and then suffered a breakdown of law and order that had been present under the old (ancien) regime. Perhaps I am reading it wrong but it does lend credence to secessionist forces if the Italian state was imposed by force in the beginning. The same is true of the America revolutionary war or Prussian unification – ordinary people finding themselves waking up one day as members of a new state created by force. Very unlike the union of crowns in the UK (100 years of unofficial union before formal adoption).
Tens of thousands of people in the south fought for the risorgimento and the overthrow of the Bourbon regime. To say it was ‘imposed’ is simplistic.
Tens of thousands of people in the south fought for the risorgimento and the overthrow of the Bourbon regime. To say it was ‘imposed’ is simplistic.
A very interesting article. While I dont begrudge the Italian state per se (no skin in the game) it does seem even from the article that the south was conquered by the north and then suffered a breakdown of law and order that had been present under the old (ancien) regime. Perhaps I am reading it wrong but it does lend credence to secessionist forces if the Italian state was imposed by force in the beginning. The same is true of the America revolutionary war or Prussian unification – ordinary people finding themselves waking up one day as members of a new state created by force. Very unlike the union of crowns in the UK (100 years of unofficial union before formal adoption).
I see it as a cautionary tale for the reparations movement in America.
I see it as a cautionary tale for the reparations movement in America.
“Africa comincia a Roma” or Africa begins in Rome.
Coulden’t possibly comment as one of my ancestors Giuseppe Samengo was one of Garibaldi’s tenente!
Coulden’t possibly comment as one of my ancestors Giuseppe Samengo was one of Garibaldi’s tenente!
“Africa comincia a Roma” or Africa begins in Rome.
In so many contemporary conflicts, the feeling that one is on the “right side of history”, seems to justify a wilful blindness.
Certainly one of the most obnoxious phrases doing the rounds at the moment.
Very interesting piece on a subject about which I’m shamefully ignorant. Parks is a huge service to Italian translation, too. If you ever find yourself reading a book originally published in Italian, odds are it’s Parks who’s done the traduzione (if it isn’t Weaver, that is).
In so many contemporary conflicts, the feeling that one is on the “right side of history”, seems to justify a wilful blindness.
Certainly one of the most obnoxious phrases doing the rounds at the moment.
Very interesting piece on a subject about which I’m shamefully ignorant. Parks is a huge service to Italian translation, too. If you ever find yourself reading a book originally published in Italian, odds are it’s Parks who’s done the traduzione (if it isn’t Weaver, that is).
History is complex and when you dig into the different perspectives and detailed facts it’s never quite as clear cut as the myths we grew up with.
Is that a problem or just indicative of how far we have come in self confidence that we can discuss and debate these issues, and thus a source of pride?
That does not mean counter narratives shouldn’t undergo serious scrutiny and be called out if weakly based. Twaddle must be labelled so. But we also risk not learning the true lessons from history by over-simplification.
History is complex and when you dig into the different perspectives and detailed facts it’s never quite as clear cut as the myths we grew up with.
Is that a problem or just indicative of how far we have come in self confidence that we can discuss and debate these issues, and thus a source of pride?
That does not mean counter narratives shouldn’t undergo serious scrutiny and be called out if weakly based. Twaddle must be labelled so. But we also risk not learning the true lessons from history by over-simplification.
Many people on the far left get their kicks from demolishing patriotic heroes. See, for example, the toppling of Abraham Lincoln’s statues in Portland. I don’t know why they do this but it’s obviously not driven by scholarship. Indeed it often involves a gross distortion of the historical record. Perhaps they have ‘dad issues.’
Many people on the far left get their kicks from demolishing patriotic heroes. See, for example, the toppling of Abraham Lincoln’s statues in Portland. I don’t know why they do this but it’s obviously not driven by scholarship. Indeed it often involves a gross distortion of the historical record. Perhaps they have ‘dad issues.’
The late A.J.P.T Taylor described Garibaldi as: “the only admirable figure in modern history”.*
(* Possibly in one of his famous TV Lectures in the late 60’s.)
The late A.J.P.T Taylor described Garibaldi as: “the only admirable figure in modern history”.*
(* Possibly in one of his famous TV Lectures in the late 60’s.)