I was not taught anything at my comprehensive school that might have prevented me from going down the pit, on the contrary, I was only ever given the skills required for when I inevitably found myself at the bottom of that 1,500-foot shaft. As coal could not be cut by pen, it had been decided I and many around me should remain illiterate.
Absolute nonsense, i’m afraid. You don’t spend a minimum of twelve years at school being prevented from learning to read, especially if you’ve got a reasonably able brain. You don’t learn to read of your own volition, perhaps because your mates aren’t bothering, it’s not “the thing to do”. Blaming your own self-inflicted illiteracy on “the system” signifies an ingrained-from-birth attitude towards thinking the world owes you something; it doesn’t. This seeps out into much of the rest of the article.
I have friends who live in the area. There are, of course, social problems which he describes and if the book he’s had published is based around this narrative i’ve no doubt it’ll attract attention and sympathy. But what he describes is tainted with the attitude, which my friends don’t have, that he’s been hard done by. Lest any readers take pity, let me just say that the people i know who live in the area lead perfectly good and fruitful lives.
The pockets of poverty he describes exist in many, many other places in the western world, where once thriving industries have vanished. The Durham area is no worse off than any of them. That mightn’t be much consolation for those captured in a cycle of deprivation, but they can’t be regarded as being a ‘special case’ or the responsibility of any one factor (such as Thatcher) that the simplistic narrative in this article portrays. Let’s not forget, for instance, that Tony Blair was the MP for a small Durham town, Sedgefield from 1983-2007, pretty much the period this article is concerned with. If those problems were of such concern to his constituents, i think he’d have known about it; or perhaps he too was content to let the area he represented drift.
To be fair to the author, since he’s 57 and left school in 1982, he probably didn’t crack year 12. I teach trade & post-trade electrical and all my students have done Y12, and I have heaps of borderline illiterates in my classes. I suspect the education trends in the UK are similar to Australia, so it’s perfectly imaginable that too many youngsters in both countries get a rubbish education in wreading and righting.
I generally had two or three borderline illiterates in my class when I was teaching philosophy to nice upper-middle class undergraduates at the Russell Group university where I did my PhD.
Isn’t it the case that 10% of the human race have an IQ of 80 or below (perhaps more where people have learning disabilities) The US Army does not accept people with IQs less than 80, are we, therefore, surprised at the number of borderline illiterates?
Not at all. What surprises me is kids going through 13 years of schooling, getting straight A’s at A-level, and winning a place at a top university without being able to construct a grammatical sentence of their own language.
Not at all. What surprises me is kids going through 13 years of schooling, getting straight A’s at A-level, and winning a place at a top university without being able to construct a grammatical sentence of their own language.
A few years ago I saw a sheet on a notice board at Reading University advertising remedial maths classes in the mysteries of arithmetic, percentages, basic statistics, etc. I suspect that it was aimed at the sort of people who had chosen psychology as a soft option and then discovered to their horror that it required number crunching. But if people can bluff their way into serious tertiary education when they are so unprepared, we are obviously wasting truckloads of money from age 5 onwards.
Isn’t it the case that 10% of the human race have an IQ of 80 or below (perhaps more where people have learning disabilities) The US Army does not accept people with IQs less than 80, are we, therefore, surprised at the number of borderline illiterates?
A few years ago I saw a sheet on a notice board at Reading University advertising remedial maths classes in the mysteries of arithmetic, percentages, basic statistics, etc. I suspect that it was aimed at the sort of people who had chosen psychology as a soft option and then discovered to their horror that it required number crunching. But if people can bluff their way into serious tertiary education when they are so unprepared, we are obviously wasting truckloads of money from age 5 onwards.
I generally had two or three borderline illiterates in my class when I was teaching philosophy to nice upper-middle class undergraduates at the Russell Group university where I did my PhD.
Indeed. My point was regarding the complexity of post-industrialisation rather than the simplistic narrative the author puts forward.
The article is also an insult to the vast majority of people who live in the Durham area.
I can only assume you write of Easington, Horden, Peterlee, South Hetton etc. as you have provided only anecdotes whereas most UnHerd pieces are littered with references.
My father-in-law worked as a shipyard welder on the Wear but with a strong Methodist background his attitudes and morality were completely opposed to the attitudes depicted by the author as typical to the area. I have also met a number of former miners who have not succumbed to the malaise, ignorance and blame culture of which pockets can certainly be found in Durham but have made good.
My eldest son chose to go to 6th form college in Peterlee and still regularly sees friends whose backgrounds are undoubtedly working class but who do not share the attitudes described here even if some might share elements of the distorted political views that were fostered by a number of the teachers there.
Unfortunately the author seems to describe only a lurid segment of life in County Durham and his analysis of the causes are so partial and limited as to suggest greater enlightenment is unlikely to be found in his book.The article smacks of propaganda rather than a serious contribution to analysing the undoubted problems that do exist in the old pit villages or the reasons for the closure of the mines. It is a pity since the author has clearly turned his own life round so might have some Unherd insights to put forward.
I was born and brought up in Cumberland (Now happily restored from the dystopian creation of bureaucrat-knows-best, Cumbria).
Harold Wilson’s govt shut far more pits than Thatchers, that’s one of the most widely known, ‘little known’ facts, and despite being embedded in an early, and equally ubiquitous culture of pit villages, I find the author’s assertions unrecognisable.
My dad, a miner obviously, did not want me to go down the pit at any price, nor any of my brothers and sisters, and none of us did, not only because they were all getting shut, but because in the decade of the Beatles, Stones,Moon shots and what have you we had other ideas.
I don’t recognise his dystopian vision even though West Cumberland was hit every bit as hard in the 1960s as Durham was in the 1980s.
He needs to get out more.
I note with interest you points regarding HW labour government shutting more coal mines than Thatcher.
But you fail to mention the the mines that were shut down were mines with the worst conditions and were so unproductive that shutting them was a priority on health and safety grounds
.
You also fail to mention the 1974 plan for coal.
A tremendous leap forward in health and safety and new longwall mining technology.
All centred around a national grid to supply efficiency of electricity supply to a growing economy and the cheap supply of power to the masses.
In 1981 i was possible the last intake of a group young men into the coal industry into the North Nottinghamshire coal fields (Thoresby colliery)
I did my training at loundhall training college before setting upon my mining career of 28 years.
I worked in a coal mine that was modern and efficient and also very sade that produced over 1 5 million tons of coal per year.
I was well paid and only missed one year’s pay due to the fact I stood and fought in the great strike of 1984/5.
I left the coal industry in 2008 due to my knee injuries and looked for alternative work.
I found that work with the probation service in Nottinghamshire.
My job brought me into daily contact with the criminal fraternity.
Over the years I seen so many once proud communities and their mining stock fall into degrigation poverty and hopelessness.
These once proud communities are now waste lands which are over run with gangs ,drugs,prostitution ,violence.
I despair at the hopelessness of individuals who at the age of 18 have written their life’s off.
A comment and discussion with so many of these poor souls usually starts like this.
So charlie.how long have you worked for the probation service.
Ok ,I worked has a coal miner for 28 years before I started working for the probation service.
Wow you know my dad/ grandad worked at Hucknall/ the pits.
He says it was really hard work and dangerous, but he loved it and the money was great.
I wish I could of had a chance of working down the pit.
It’s soul destroying.
Thatcher and the tories distroyed communities for pure political gain.
We are now paying the price for evil act of political genocide on a section of the working whos only crime was to fight for a better future.
I note with interest you points regarding HW labour government shutting more coal mines than Thatcher.
But you fail to mention the the mines that were shut down were mines with the worst conditions and were so unproductive that shutting them was a priority on health and safety grounds
.
You also fail to mention the 1974 plan for coal.
A tremendous leap forward in health and safety and new longwall mining technology.
All centred around a national grid to supply efficiency of electricity supply to a growing economy and the cheap supply of power to the masses.
In 1981 i was possible the last intake of a group young men into the coal industry into the North Nottinghamshire coal fields (Thoresby colliery)
I did my training at loundhall training college before setting upon my mining career of 28 years.
I worked in a coal mine that was modern and efficient and also very sade that produced over 1 5 million tons of coal per year.
I was well paid and only missed one year’s pay due to the fact I stood and fought in the great strike of 1984/5.
I left the coal industry in 2008 due to my knee injuries and looked for alternative work.
I found that work with the probation service in Nottinghamshire.
My job brought me into daily contact with the criminal fraternity.
Over the years I seen so many once proud communities and their mining stock fall into degrigation poverty and hopelessness.
These once proud communities are now waste lands which are over run with gangs ,drugs,prostitution ,violence.
I despair at the hopelessness of individuals who at the age of 18 have written their life’s off.
A comment and discussion with so many of these poor souls usually starts like this.
So charlie.how long have you worked for the probation service.
Ok ,I worked has a coal miner for 28 years before I started working for the probation service.
Wow you know my dad/ grandad worked at Hucknall/ the pits.
He says it was really hard work and dangerous, but he loved it and the money was great.
I wish I could of had a chance of working down the pit.
It’s soul destroying.
Thatcher and the tories distroyed communities for pure political gain.
We are now paying the price for evil act of political genocide on a section of the working whos only crime was to fight for a better future.
I was born and brought up in Cumberland (Now happily restored from the dystopian creation of bureaucrat-knows-best, Cumbria).
Harold Wilson’s govt shut far more pits than Thatchers, that’s one of the most widely known, ‘little known’ facts, and despite being embedded in an early, and equally ubiquitous culture of pit villages, I find the author’s assertions unrecognisable.
My dad, a miner obviously, did not want me to go down the pit at any price, nor any of my brothers and sisters, and none of us did, not only because they were all getting shut, but because in the decade of the Beatles, Stones,Moon shots and what have you we had other ideas.
I don’t recognise his dystopian vision even though West Cumberland was hit every bit as hard in the 1960s as Durham was in the 1980s.
He needs to get out more.
The headline (not written by the article’s author) is typically lazy, not bothering to differentiate between Durham and Co. Durham (or at least the parts that are under discussion here).
My father-in-law worked as a shipyard welder on the Wear but with a strong Methodist background his attitudes and morality were completely opposed to the attitudes depicted by the author as typical to the area. I have also met a number of former miners who have not succumbed to the malaise, ignorance and blame culture of which pockets can certainly be found in Durham but have made good.
My eldest son chose to go to 6th form college in Peterlee and still regularly sees friends whose backgrounds are undoubtedly working class but who do not share the attitudes described here even if some might share elements of the distorted political views that were fostered by a number of the teachers there.
Unfortunately the author seems to describe only a lurid segment of life in County Durham and his analysis of the causes are so partial and limited as to suggest greater enlightenment is unlikely to be found in his book.The article smacks of propaganda rather than a serious contribution to analysing the undoubted problems that do exist in the old pit villages or the reasons for the closure of the mines. It is a pity since the author has clearly turned his own life round so might have some Unherd insights to put forward.
The headline (not written by the article’s author) is typically lazy, not bothering to differentiate between Durham and Co. Durham (or at least the parts that are under discussion here).
I can only assume you write of Easington, Horden, Peterlee, South Hetton etc. as you have provided only anecdotes whereas most UnHerd pieces are littered with references.
Being ‘bothered’ isn’t defined by whether you hold a whole set of leftist political views, whose results have just been so successful when put into application anywhere.
British industries were famously uncompetitive and dogged with industrial disputes in the halcyon days before Thatcher. The British people were also notably ‘unpatriotic’, if you like, in quickly switching to better quality foreign products rather than mediocre British ones.
The Left and the trades unions, along with mediocre management all have to take a big share of he blame for this, not just one demonised political figure who actually on the whole did hugely improve UK economic performance.
Indeed. My point was regarding the complexity of post-industrialisation rather than the simplistic narrative the author puts forward.
The article is also an insult to the vast majority of people who live in the Durham area.
Being ‘bothered’ isn’t defined by whether you hold a whole set of leftist political views, whose results have just been so successful when put into application anywhere.
British industries were famously uncompetitive and dogged with industrial disputes in the halcyon days before Thatcher. The British people were also notably ‘unpatriotic’, if you like, in quickly switching to better quality foreign products rather than mediocre British ones.
The Left and the trades unions, along with mediocre management all have to take a big share of he blame for this, not just one demonised political figure who actually on the whole did hugely improve UK economic performance.
I went to a really bad comprehensive growing up with a young single mother on an extremely rough council estate during the 1980s. I still find it pretty hard to describe what went on there, especially to people who went to good schools. Learning pretty much goes out the window when you are getting sucker-punched from behind by the class sadist, or a mental-case attempts to stab you in the eye with a soldering iron, or a group of lads are stamping on your face just for fun. The borstal depicted in the 1970s film Scum was only marginally worse than the school I attended.
Despite earning a doctorate degree and starting my own business, that place left an indelible mark on me: a kind of watchful paranoia that never goes away. The one good thing that came out of that experience was that it taught me how to fight.
This is a comment on the local school where I grew up from a member of a more recent generation
I went there myself and left last year, and I have to say it’s possibly the worst school within Stoke. There were race wars every other week, there were gangs, weapons and drugs are often found, and certain areas of the school felt like ghettos with only a select race are within an area. Honestly, if you’re thinking about taking your kids there, don’t, and if your kids are already there, move them. Do not blame the teachers, most of the kids don’t want to learn as all they do is mess around, and do all that has been said above. I legitimately felt deprived going there, and ultimately let down, so please do not subject your kids to this utter joke of a school.
Read more at http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/stoke-trent-high-schools-fail-inspections/story-26053614-detail/story.html#8ZfmRHr7qhokuidk.99
Excellent post. As a Headmaster of a tough school said to me ” If 25% of a class and the school are troublemakers, one is not involved in education but riot control.”
Those thugs you mentioned largely come from unskilled uneducated background and despise learning. They are not the sort of people employable in advanced engineering such such aircraft, misssiles, satellite or jet engine design and manufacture.
When Labour came to power in 1945, the politicians, civil servants , union leaders , teachers and academics were more or less ignorant of international trade and technology. The British Empire was a protected markey fro British companies yet Labour were ignorant of the fact that dismantling it would most impact un and semi skilled jobs in the UK.By 1963 The German Miracle had occurred yet the un and semi-skilled union leaders did nothing to upgrade skills. By 1968 British heavy industry was in massive decline partly assisted by the development of electronic control systems and the closure of the Suez Canal. The NCB could have been privatised or turned into a mutual society and turned into an international mining company such as British Gas. This would have meant the massive upgrading of skills and the creation of a cosmopolitan outlook by all staff
Those who understood international trade and technology largely worked abroad often in oil, mining, construction, chemicals, shipping and banking; when they pointed out the scale of foreign competition were at best ignored.
Such a frozen mindset also operated at top level management of big firms as illustrated by BP Chemicals still in 1980s monitoring its overseas sales statistics under such headings as British Empire, Red China, pre- Independence terms for African States and with EEU and EFTA nowhere to be seen.
BP was described as the technical branch of the FCO.Shell appears to have been more discerning as were the mining companies, HSBC, etc. If one looks at post 1945, those with the get up and go tended to work overseas for a company. Those working in the UK who ended up running a company had spent it in the slower lanes.
BP was described as the technical branch of the FCO.Shell appears to have been more discerning as were the mining companies, HSBC, etc. If one looks at post 1945, those with the get up and go tended to work overseas for a company. Those working in the UK who ended up running a company had spent it in the slower lanes.
The unions were responsible for not upgrading skills???!!! What planet do you live on? Unions were far more than organisations concerned just with pay and working conditions. They ran social clubs, provided education to apprentices, taught social skills and the values of commonality and solidarity. What they were NOT responsible for was investment. Since the 1890’s most major British companies paid out 95% of profits in dividends and set aside 5% for R&D. They still do. Britain runs a rentier economy. The corporations of that well known bastion of communism, the USA, invested 30% of their profits in development; as did Japan, Germany, France etc.It wasn’t the unions who decided what price to charge for products. The Mini-car, designed by an Italian, was the second biggest selling in history after the Volkswagen Beetle. The unions were blamed for the destrcution of the British Car industry. But in the early 70’s it turned out that EVERY single Mini car had been sold at a loss. Foreign competition won because the British owners of industry saw businesses as a means to line their pockets. In 1976 I worked in a factory on a machine built in 1928 and was tolod it didn’t need replacing or upgrading because “it does the job it was designed to, that’s a quality machine that.” The fact is was 50% slower than European competitors was of no consequence.
The EETPU, the electricians union had a school to upgrade the skills of their members. Self employed craftsmen have to regularly update their skills, especially electricians. German unions understood a balance sheet and negotiated pay deals based on profits.
The frequent strikes reduced quality and prolonged delivery time. There is no point in investing in technology which reduces the employment of un and semi skilled workforce if the unions refuse to upgrade skills. When it comes to computer software, the cost of training the staff is often twice that of the licences. The frequent Spanish Practices and demarcation strikes made investing in new technology pointless. The result was that many of the best craftsmen, foremen, technicians, scientists and engineers went to work overseas because they were not prepared to have their lives run by some bloody minded shop steward who was ignorant of international trade and technology.
The basic evolution of technology is to move from un through semi to skilled workforce. We no longer build canals, make sails or transport goods in wooden ships. An architect I knew was called a scab because in the 1980s, as a draftsmen he learnt to use CAD.
The only union leaders who understood the need to upgrade skils such as Bill Jordon, Gavin Laird, Eric Chapple , John Lyons and eric Hammond were mocked by the trade unions leaders who represented the un and smi skilled union which in the 1970s made up 70 % of the TUC. NACODS did not sup;ort Scargill.
There’s a lot of truth to what you say, but completely exonerating the destructive role of the trades unions – but also ‘wildcat’ strikes led by militant left wingers, who were endlessly on strike against nationalised industries under Labour governments, is going too far.
It was the shop stewards of the un an semi skilled unions which most of the caused problems. There is massive difference in mentality between un / semi skilled and craft union where members have undergone 5 plus years of apprenticeship; namely in responsibility for quality, safety and planning.
The craft unions such as EETPU, NACODS and AEU understood technology evolved and skills had to be upgraded. However in the 1970s, 70% of the TUC were un and semi skilled. In Germany it is the better educated and trained craft unions who can read a balance sheet who influence industrial policy, not the un and semi skilled unions. In Germany pay is based on profit, not over time and people were expected to work extra hours if needed. In Britain overtime was distributed by shop stewards which gave them immense power. In Britain, due to absenteeism (Mondays and Fridays), strikes and indifference to quality, meant too many goods were faulty. Also Unions prevented people being sacked for shoddy work.
One of the reasons the for sucess if Japanese manufacturing was the very high quality of workmanship and short delivery times which cannot be achieved if there are strikes, absenteeism and indifference to quality. Khazen, continuous improvement is a state of mind which runs through much of Japanese society whether it is making swords or cars.
Much of British Industrial policy was formed by D Jay, H Gaitskill, H Wilson and the leaders of the un and semi skilled unions who knew nothing about international trade and technology and in particular, industry within the USA, Germany and Japan in th period of 1945 to 1951 and 1963 to 1970.
Frank Cousins( lorry driver and therefore semi skilled ) of the TGWU was Wilson’s Minister Of Technology. Perhaps if Frank Chapple of the EETPU had been Minister of Technology the decline in British Industry under Wilson would not have been so great.
By 1967, NCB Mining Engineers were leaving Britain because they saw no future in Britsh coal mining . If an organisation are losing the brightest and best, then it is in trouble.
It was the shop stewards of the un an semi skilled unions which most of the caused problems. There is massive difference in mentality between un / semi skilled and craft union where members have undergone 5 plus years of apprenticeship; namely in responsibility for quality, safety and planning.
The craft unions such as EETPU, NACODS and AEU understood technology evolved and skills had to be upgraded. However in the 1970s, 70% of the TUC were un and semi skilled. In Germany it is the better educated and trained craft unions who can read a balance sheet who influence industrial policy, not the un and semi skilled unions. In Germany pay is based on profit, not over time and people were expected to work extra hours if needed. In Britain overtime was distributed by shop stewards which gave them immense power. In Britain, due to absenteeism (Mondays and Fridays), strikes and indifference to quality, meant too many goods were faulty. Also Unions prevented people being sacked for shoddy work.
One of the reasons the for sucess if Japanese manufacturing was the very high quality of workmanship and short delivery times which cannot be achieved if there are strikes, absenteeism and indifference to quality. Khazen, continuous improvement is a state of mind which runs through much of Japanese society whether it is making swords or cars.
Much of British Industrial policy was formed by D Jay, H Gaitskill, H Wilson and the leaders of the un and semi skilled unions who knew nothing about international trade and technology and in particular, industry within the USA, Germany and Japan in th period of 1945 to 1951 and 1963 to 1970.
Frank Cousins( lorry driver and therefore semi skilled ) of the TGWU was Wilson’s Minister Of Technology. Perhaps if Frank Chapple of the EETPU had been Minister of Technology the decline in British Industry under Wilson would not have been so great.
By 1967, NCB Mining Engineers were leaving Britain because they saw no future in Britsh coal mining . If an organisation are losing the brightest and best, then it is in trouble.
In 1974 I was working on the Vandervells factory in Maidenhead (long since demolished to make way for a housing estate). The electroplating machines were made in the USA in the 1930s. But those were bought in the days of old Vandervell, an industrial pioneer. He was dead and the factory was part of GKN. Stirling Moss’s Vanwell racing car in British Racing Green was still proudly on display in the entrance hall of the admin office block. I guess that car is now in a museum or some wealthy American’s garage somewhere.
The EETPU, the electricians union had a school to upgrade the skills of their members. Self employed craftsmen have to regularly update their skills, especially electricians. German unions understood a balance sheet and negotiated pay deals based on profits.
The frequent strikes reduced quality and prolonged delivery time. There is no point in investing in technology which reduces the employment of un and semi skilled workforce if the unions refuse to upgrade skills. When it comes to computer software, the cost of training the staff is often twice that of the licences. The frequent Spanish Practices and demarcation strikes made investing in new technology pointless. The result was that many of the best craftsmen, foremen, technicians, scientists and engineers went to work overseas because they were not prepared to have their lives run by some bloody minded shop steward who was ignorant of international trade and technology.
The basic evolution of technology is to move from un through semi to skilled workforce. We no longer build canals, make sails or transport goods in wooden ships. An architect I knew was called a scab because in the 1980s, as a draftsmen he learnt to use CAD.
The only union leaders who understood the need to upgrade skils such as Bill Jordon, Gavin Laird, Eric Chapple , John Lyons and eric Hammond were mocked by the trade unions leaders who represented the un and smi skilled union which in the 1970s made up 70 % of the TUC. NACODS did not sup;ort Scargill.
There’s a lot of truth to what you say, but completely exonerating the destructive role of the trades unions – but also ‘wildcat’ strikes led by militant left wingers, who were endlessly on strike against nationalised industries under Labour governments, is going too far.
In 1974 I was working on the Vandervells factory in Maidenhead (long since demolished to make way for a housing estate). The electroplating machines were made in the USA in the 1930s. But those were bought in the days of old Vandervell, an industrial pioneer. He was dead and the factory was part of GKN. Stirling Moss’s Vanwell racing car in British Racing Green was still proudly on display in the entrance hall of the admin office block. I guess that car is now in a museum or some wealthy American’s garage somewhere.
I suspect that in every country there is a certain percentage of people who simply cannot be educated above the most basic level. In the past there were jobs for such people performing very simple, repetitive tasks in factories etc.
As most of our manufacturing has been upgraded to highly skilled work or outsourced to low wage economies there are very few jobs for such people – emptying bins is one of the few left I imagine.
So we now have a permanently unemployed underclass who turn to crime on the assumption that it pays better than an unskilled minimum wage job even if you can get one – not easy with a criminal record.
What to do with these people who make up the bulk of the criminal class and prison population is a huge problem that no government of any political stripe has been able to solve.
Such a frozen mindset also operated at top level management of big firms as illustrated by BP Chemicals still in 1980s monitoring its overseas sales statistics under such headings as British Empire, Red China, pre- Independence terms for African States and with EEU and EFTA nowhere to be seen.
The unions were responsible for not upgrading skills???!!! What planet do you live on? Unions were far more than organisations concerned just with pay and working conditions. They ran social clubs, provided education to apprentices, taught social skills and the values of commonality and solidarity. What they were NOT responsible for was investment. Since the 1890’s most major British companies paid out 95% of profits in dividends and set aside 5% for R&D. They still do. Britain runs a rentier economy. The corporations of that well known bastion of communism, the USA, invested 30% of their profits in development; as did Japan, Germany, France etc.It wasn’t the unions who decided what price to charge for products. The Mini-car, designed by an Italian, was the second biggest selling in history after the Volkswagen Beetle. The unions were blamed for the destrcution of the British Car industry. But in the early 70’s it turned out that EVERY single Mini car had been sold at a loss. Foreign competition won because the British owners of industry saw businesses as a means to line their pockets. In 1976 I worked in a factory on a machine built in 1928 and was tolod it didn’t need replacing or upgrading because “it does the job it was designed to, that’s a quality machine that.” The fact is was 50% slower than European competitors was of no consequence.
I suspect that in every country there is a certain percentage of people who simply cannot be educated above the most basic level. In the past there were jobs for such people performing very simple, repetitive tasks in factories etc.
As most of our manufacturing has been upgraded to highly skilled work or outsourced to low wage economies there are very few jobs for such people – emptying bins is one of the few left I imagine.
So we now have a permanently unemployed underclass who turn to crime on the assumption that it pays better than an unskilled minimum wage job even if you can get one – not easy with a criminal record.
What to do with these people who make up the bulk of the criminal class and prison population is a huge problem that no government of any political stripe has been able to solve.
I can imagine it is perfectly possible to spend upwards of 12 years in such a school and learn next to nothing. They are regarded as holding pens basically not places of learning.
This is a comment on the local school where I grew up from a member of a more recent generation
I went there myself and left last year, and I have to say it’s possibly the worst school within Stoke. There were race wars every other week, there were gangs, weapons and drugs are often found, and certain areas of the school felt like ghettos with only a select race are within an area. Honestly, if you’re thinking about taking your kids there, don’t, and if your kids are already there, move them. Do not blame the teachers, most of the kids don’t want to learn as all they do is mess around, and do all that has been said above. I legitimately felt deprived going there, and ultimately let down, so please do not subject your kids to this utter joke of a school.
Read more at http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/stoke-trent-high-schools-fail-inspections/story-26053614-detail/story.html#8ZfmRHr7qhokuidk.99
Excellent post. As a Headmaster of a tough school said to me ” If 25% of a class and the school are troublemakers, one is not involved in education but riot control.”
Those thugs you mentioned largely come from unskilled uneducated background and despise learning. They are not the sort of people employable in advanced engineering such such aircraft, misssiles, satellite or jet engine design and manufacture.
When Labour came to power in 1945, the politicians, civil servants , union leaders , teachers and academics were more or less ignorant of international trade and technology. The British Empire was a protected markey fro British companies yet Labour were ignorant of the fact that dismantling it would most impact un and semi skilled jobs in the UK.By 1963 The German Miracle had occurred yet the un and semi-skilled union leaders did nothing to upgrade skills. By 1968 British heavy industry was in massive decline partly assisted by the development of electronic control systems and the closure of the Suez Canal. The NCB could have been privatised or turned into a mutual society and turned into an international mining company such as British Gas. This would have meant the massive upgrading of skills and the creation of a cosmopolitan outlook by all staff
Those who understood international trade and technology largely worked abroad often in oil, mining, construction, chemicals, shipping and banking; when they pointed out the scale of foreign competition were at best ignored.
I can imagine it is perfectly possible to spend upwards of 12 years in such a school and learn next to nothing. They are regarded as holding pens basically not places of learning.
‘But what he describes is tainted with the attitude, which my friends don’t have, that he’s been hard done by.’
This I think is an important point. The author uses the term, ‘working class,’ but there really is no working class now, at least not in any sense of the term that my grandparents would recognise. Too often now the term ‘working class’ is used as little more than a moral, ideological and political appeal. As an empty association with over romanticised, salt-of-the-earth horny handed sons of toil, done in by Fatcha. If you pay a mortgage, drive a car or go on overseas holidays then you are not working class in any classic sense. The class system is not self-cert.
Nowadays we have an underclass, an overclass, a comfortable class (largely made up of those who got the sweet end of the property market) and a coping class. The issue with the public sector strikes is I think not so much about pay restraint necessarily, rather that people who are in work and on wages that are far from low are now in a grisly place where they are coping rather than really comfortable. Whilst I have some sympathy, it’s hardly a condition unique to the public sector.
Almost certainly the UK would have seen some level of deindustrialisation with or without Thatcher. Would an alternative economy have been put in place by another PM? Maybe, maybe not. We’ll never know. My own deindustrialised home town did have new things come along at the right time, but it is hard to escape the feeling that was the result of good luck rather than good leadership by anyone.
What the coping class need is the stability that has gone. We saw this played out at the EU referendum where easy-living comfortable class types saw the EU as a playground and a source of tenants for the BTL. The coping class saw wage arbitrage and headaches. Sadly, as the article says, it’s probably too late for the underclass. But working class is a bygone age.
My electrician is spending £18k on his daughter’s wedding (in Greece), and is greatly cheered up after discovering that one of his two offshore bank accounts will let him deposit the cash here and take it out there without charging a huge commission. How working class is that?
You do realise it’s illegal to do your own electrical work unless you’re a qualified sparky? So nearly everyone has someone they can call “my electrician.” Maybe you do your own dental work and hair cuts too?!
Your article has lazy Mackem written all over it. I’m reminded why the North East rivalry runs deeper than just football. My old man was right to tell me never to employ a Mackem. A Geordie would never have written such a poor me article.
You do realise it’s illegal to do your own electrical work unless you’re a qualified sparky? So nearly everyone has someone they can call “my electrician.” Maybe you do your own dental work and hair cuts too?!
Your article has lazy Mackem written all over it. I’m reminded why the North East rivalry runs deeper than just football. My old man was right to tell me never to employ a Mackem. A Geordie would never have written such a poor me article.
But particular class membership is not just about income but education and culture.
So poorly paid employee of art gallery is middle class and your electrician is not….
But particular class membership is not just about income but education and culture.
So poorly paid employee of art gallery is middle class and your electrician is not….
My electrician is spending £18k on his daughter’s wedding (in Greece), and is greatly cheered up after discovering that one of his two offshore bank accounts will let him deposit the cash here and take it out there without charging a huge commission. How working class is that?
Of course, the working class still exists, but as you suggest, split into 2,3, or even 4 different types now, but working class is still the overarching umbrella term for them all. The term is used to simplify debate, but there have always been huge income disparities and ambitions between those at both ends of the spectrum, exacerbated in many instances by where you live.
Of course, the working class still exists, but as you suggest, split into 2,3, or even 4 different types now, but working class is still the overarching umbrella term for them all. The term is used to simplify debate, but there have always been huge income disparities and ambitions between those at both ends of the spectrum, exacerbated in many instances by where you live.
I was raised in County Durham at the same time as the author, going through the same state education system. I have been fortunate to move around the country to a few other places, deciding to return to County Durham over 20 years ago. That decision was based upon being able to have a quality of life not afforded to me elsewhere in the country. I still live and work there.
The picture the author paints, is one with which I am familiar. However, not one typical of the life lived by the majority of us Durham folks.
The title of the article “Durham has become a land of zombies” is a lazy one. It should more accurately be “Like elsewhere, parts of Durham are occupied by zombies”. The author appears to have spent more time in self pity rather than self reflection, caring only to present a case of victim hood. They have a book to sell, and I suspect want to sell it to others of an equal disposition. i.e. playing to their audience.
The reasons for industrial decline in some sectors and the growth of others is worthy of honest examination, and deserves a well balanced study. Unfortunately, having a chip on both shoulders does not qualify.
So you had to move away to find fame and fortune, just like the author and myself, but have now returned, for the cheaper housing, yet patronisingly accuse others of playing the victim, a very typical attitude of new money Durham FOLK!
To be fair, seems to me the author has not chosen to offer yet another nauseating account of how I made good by pulling up nonexistent bootstraps, loudly proclaiming their current elevated status due to a virtuous combination of talent and hard work – the ‘clever me’ syndrome by-passing teachers and other helpful facilitators on the way ‘up’.
So you had to move away to find fame and fortune, just like the author and myself, but have now returned, for the cheaper housing, yet patronisingly accuse others of playing the victim, a very typical attitude of new money Durham FOLK!
To be fair, seems to me the author has not chosen to offer yet another nauseating account of how I made good by pulling up nonexistent bootstraps, loudly proclaiming their current elevated status due to a virtuous combination of talent and hard work – the ‘clever me’ syndrome by-passing teachers and other helpful facilitators on the way ‘up’.
I would not normally bother to comment on a story like this yet felt compelled to. Last month I went on holiday to Edinburgh. I live in Coventry, so its a long drive. I therefore decided to stop the night at a hotel in Durham. Had this not been the case I would have read the above article and assumed it to be a dystopian hell hole. To call this piece a tissue of outright lies doesn’t even come close. I found Durham to be a beautiful city full of high end restaurants and independent shops. The city centre has fared far better than many others. A vast area of the waterside has been completely redeveloped with massive new buildings and public spaces. Had I not visited for myself I would never have realised just how twisted by hatred, self pity and the worst kind of class tribalism this “author” really is.
Policing is problematic in many places. Pockets of deprivation and poverty exist everywhere. Even the worst areas of Durham look like Knightsbridge compared to what I’ve seen in Blackpool and Coventry. It’s fascinating the lies some adults will tell themselves, in order to continue believing the prejudice and hatred they were immersed in as children. Deindustrialisation has happened all across the developed world. More manufacturing jobs were lost under Blair than Thatcher. She may be a tempting hate figure, but you’d have to be fundamentally dishonest to pretend that these inevitable changes would not have happened under any government, just as they did in every other western economy.
The author unintentionally reveals the problem himself. He was brought up in a community that did not value education, that saw a life down the pit as not just inevitable but desirable. You can scream into the void, longing for a rose tinted past that never existed all you like. No leader can uninvent online shopping, close supermarkets or bring back the butcher, baker and iron monger. Let alone make coal production remotely relevant or profitable.
Quote: “A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields. Once coal was discovered, the villages were built immediately” No one has the right to route themselves and every future generation to the spot, then demand that high paying work be provided to them as a matter of entitlement. To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…
Adam, the only credence I would give the author is that they are most likely describing one of the villages in the former East Durham coal fields, though I have noted it is unnamed. Durham City is a grand place, and there are many fine towns in the county where a good and prosperous life can be had. Why folks who have been “left behind” are still in a disadvantaged position is worthy of discussion and action. As you have already said “The author unintentionally reveals the problem himself.” I don’t suspect their book will provide any answers.
Anyone familiar with the area will tell you that Durham city, with its cathedral and ivory league university, is a world away from the former pit villages described by the author.
“No leader can uninvent online shopping, close supermarkets or bring back the butcher, baker and ironmonger. Let alone make coal production remotely relevant or profitable” Why not ?
“To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…” Many did this in the 80s, but can’t now, due to the high cost of housing. Plenty of Southerners moving up here though for the cheap housing.
“Why not?” Is this sarcasm? What exactly are you proposing? Should we ban internet access? Tax online shopping out of existence? Tax everyone the better to subsidise loss making mines, so they can produce an environmentally destructive product for which there is no market? Selfish and entitled don’t even cover it. What you are basically saying is “Stop the world I want to get off”. Good luck with that.
Oh, and claimants of housing benefit are about as mobile as it’s possible to get. I know people in this position who have moved hundreds of miles to find work.
“Why not?” Is this sarcasm? What exactly are you proposing? Should we ban internet access? Tax online shopping out of existence? Tax everyone the better to subsidise loss making mines, so they can produce an environmentally destructive product for which there is no market? Selfish and entitled don’t even cover it. What you are basically saying is “Stop the world I want to get off”. Good luck with that.
Oh, and claimants of housing benefit are about as mobile as it’s possible to get. I know people in this position who have moved hundreds of miles to find work.
Very glad to read your comment, as friends of mine have relocated to County Durham in the last year, and the picture painted by the author suggests they unwittingly moved into hell!
The other point I picked up, repeated in your final paragraph, was that ‘A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields.’ That is quite an admission, although he failed to realise it. The ‘work’ arrived in the area, followed by the people. Twas ever thus. Work then left the area when it was displaced by cheaper sources of the commodity being produced. Again, the pattern has been repeated for as long as human history has been recorded. The difference this time was that the workers did not leave. Perhaps because a basic pittance was provided to avoid mass starvation, which is what has always threatened the unemployed before?
This isn’t an argument to remove, reduce or time-limit help for the unemployed: heaven forbid! But it is a request for recognition that ‘the dole’ is not, ever, enough for a meaningful life. Margaret Thatcher didn’t make the coal mines unsustainable, or Britain’s other heavy industries. Maybe the unions had a hand in that; certainly, lousy management and a complacent expectation that British goods would always have a ready market were largely to blame. But the Thatcher government WAS responsible for the abrupt closures, and the total lack of suitable alternative employment, in Co. Durham as well as for, say, Corby’s transplanted Scottish steelworkers. These communities, to a greater or lesser extent, are still blighted by the experience almost two generations on.
Adam, the only credence I would give the author is that they are most likely describing one of the villages in the former East Durham coal fields, though I have noted it is unnamed. Durham City is a grand place, and there are many fine towns in the county where a good and prosperous life can be had. Why folks who have been “left behind” are still in a disadvantaged position is worthy of discussion and action. As you have already said “The author unintentionally reveals the problem himself.” I don’t suspect their book will provide any answers.
Anyone familiar with the area will tell you that Durham city, with its cathedral and ivory league university, is a world away from the former pit villages described by the author.
“No leader can uninvent online shopping, close supermarkets or bring back the butcher, baker and ironmonger. Let alone make coal production remotely relevant or profitable” Why not ?
“To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…” Many did this in the 80s, but can’t now, due to the high cost of housing. Plenty of Southerners moving up here though for the cheap housing.
Very glad to read your comment, as friends of mine have relocated to County Durham in the last year, and the picture painted by the author suggests they unwittingly moved into hell!
The other point I picked up, repeated in your final paragraph, was that ‘A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields.’ That is quite an admission, although he failed to realise it. The ‘work’ arrived in the area, followed by the people. Twas ever thus. Work then left the area when it was displaced by cheaper sources of the commodity being produced. Again, the pattern has been repeated for as long as human history has been recorded. The difference this time was that the workers did not leave. Perhaps because a basic pittance was provided to avoid mass starvation, which is what has always threatened the unemployed before?
This isn’t an argument to remove, reduce or time-limit help for the unemployed: heaven forbid! But it is a request for recognition that ‘the dole’ is not, ever, enough for a meaningful life. Margaret Thatcher didn’t make the coal mines unsustainable, or Britain’s other heavy industries. Maybe the unions had a hand in that; certainly, lousy management and a complacent expectation that British goods would always have a ready market were largely to blame. But the Thatcher government WAS responsible for the abrupt closures, and the total lack of suitable alternative employment, in Co. Durham as well as for, say, Corby’s transplanted Scottish steelworkers. These communities, to a greater or lesser extent, are still blighted by the experience almost two generations on.
You are wrong, these large pockets of deprivation ARE the worst in in the UK. The figures are sourced and are in the book. I have spent four years on this book and unlike yourself I am very careful what I say. The title of the article (which is Unherd’s contribution) is I agree unfortunate as it is only certain parts of Country Durham that are in this state! Buy the book and try and get past the cover, it might serve you well
As I pointed out above:
Quote: “A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields. Once coal was discovered, the villages were built immediately” No one has the right to route themselves and every future generation to the spot, then demand that high paying work be provided to them as a matter of entitlement. To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…
Your ancestors did exactly this. Ask yourself, where did they come from? Why did they move? What would their lives have been like had they sat on their backsides, moaning that a long dead leader had not brought paid work to their front door?
PS: I have lived in Jaywick near Clacton on Sea. I’ll know exactly what poverty looks like. Jaywick is the worst of the worst. Far poorer, than the poorest pit village. Growing up poor is not a choice. Sitting around wallowing in self pity is. You are the people you surround yourself with.
The worst district in terms of deprivation in the whole of the country (England, not the UK) is actually situated in the town in live in. So YOU are wrong, and i’m very careful what i write, rather than basing my words on outright prejudice and distortions.
“The most deprived neighbourhood in England according to the IMD2019 is to the east of the Jaywick area of Clacton on Sea (Tendring 018a). This area was also ranked as the most deprived nationally according to the IMD2015 and IMD2010. Neighbourhoods in Blackpool then account for eight of the ten most deprived neighbourhoods nationally, with the Anfield area in the centre of Liverpool (Liverpool 019C) making up the ten most deprived areas in England”
Neighbourhoods, districts, counties, areas. We can split the stats anyway you like. Quibbling over irrelevant detail and competing in the oppression Olympics, it does nothing to change my original point. If there is no work where you live. Move your backside and find some.
I grew up in a town with a large population of first-generation Muslim migrants. They had far fewer advantages than the people of County Durham. Most had arrived with little more than the clothes they stood up in. They lived in the worst part of town, often two or more families sharing one house. They had no education, barely spoke a word of English and were bullied and rejected by everyone. For 30 years they lived like crap and worked like dogs. They now live in big houses, in the better parts of town, behind wrought iron gates. Most have block-paved drives and a couple of Mercs parked outside.
Meanwhile the same entitled and resentful locals walk past sniping about dam foreigners coming over here, taking all our housing. That or inferring some kind of tax fraud was involved. Not once does it occur to them, that perhaps this is an example to emulate. It’s always easier to blame everyone else for your own shortcomings…
“The most deprived neighbourhood in England according to the IMD2019 is to the east of the Jaywick area of Clacton on Sea (Tendring 018a). This area was also ranked as the most deprived nationally according to the IMD2015 and IMD2010. Neighbourhoods in Blackpool then account for eight of the ten most deprived neighbourhoods nationally, with the Anfield area in the centre of Liverpool (Liverpool 019C) making up the ten most deprived areas in England”
Neighbourhoods, districts, counties, areas. We can split the stats anyway you like. Quibbling over irrelevant detail and competing in the oppression Olympics, it does nothing to change my original point. If there is no work where you live. Move your backside and find some.
I grew up in a town with a large population of first-generation Muslim migrants. They had far fewer advantages than the people of County Durham. Most had arrived with little more than the clothes they stood up in. They lived in the worst part of town, often two or more families sharing one house. They had no education, barely spoke a word of English and were bullied and rejected by everyone. For 30 years they lived like crap and worked like dogs. They now live in big houses, in the better parts of town, behind wrought iron gates. Most have block-paved drives and a couple of Mercs parked outside.
Meanwhile the same entitled and resentful locals walk past sniping about dam foreigners coming over here, taking all our housing. That or inferring some kind of tax fraud was involved. Not once does it occur to them, that perhaps this is an example to emulate. It’s always easier to blame everyone else for your own shortcomings…
You write as I heard my dad speak – I could hear the language that my dad spoke – he was from Durham, my mam from Yorkshire- we emigrated to Australia in 1965- but to hear him in written ‘standard English’ – I am back there and see, feel, know the loss- the heart and soul that was ripped out of community, place, being
and the pain
of that wound,
raw, angry, gnawing
and yet
My dad
My dad
was a survivor
he knew
education
for us
as for you
and us all
a way to
connect with others
no wonder they’re
so scared of
people coming together
we might just
make a difference
I tend to see both sides of the argument going on here, but if your statistics are as accurate as I presume they are then there is certainly a case that your neighbourhood (obviously not Durham City) can claim to be experiencing the extreme end of unforgivable deprivation. When the police won’t come to a burglary and the roads are full of potholes then perhaps your next crusade should be an entirely justifiable tax strike. Why pay for what you do not receive?
As I pointed out above:
Quote: “A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields. Once coal was discovered, the villages were built immediately” No one has the right to route themselves and every future generation to the spot, then demand that high paying work be provided to them as a matter of entitlement. To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…
Your ancestors did exactly this. Ask yourself, where did they come from? Why did they move? What would their lives have been like had they sat on their backsides, moaning that a long dead leader had not brought paid work to their front door?
PS: I have lived in Jaywick near Clacton on Sea. I’ll know exactly what poverty looks like. Jaywick is the worst of the worst. Far poorer, than the poorest pit village. Growing up poor is not a choice. Sitting around wallowing in self pity is. You are the people you surround yourself with.
The worst district in terms of deprivation in the whole of the country (England, not the UK) is actually situated in the town in live in. So YOU are wrong, and i’m very careful what i write, rather than basing my words on outright prejudice and distortions.
You write as I heard my dad speak – I could hear the language that my dad spoke – he was from Durham, my mam from Yorkshire- we emigrated to Australia in 1965- but to hear him in written ‘standard English’ – I am back there and see, feel, know the loss- the heart and soul that was ripped out of community, place, being
and the pain
of that wound,
raw, angry, gnawing
and yet
My dad
My dad
was a survivor
he knew
education
for us
as for you
and us all
a way to
connect with others
no wonder they’re
so scared of
people coming together
we might just
make a difference
I tend to see both sides of the argument going on here, but if your statistics are as accurate as I presume they are then there is certainly a case that your neighbourhood (obviously not Durham City) can claim to be experiencing the extreme end of unforgivable deprivation. When the police won’t come to a burglary and the roads are full of potholes then perhaps your next crusade should be an entirely justifiable tax strike. Why pay for what you do not receive?
As a natal Northumbrian I can sympathise with much of what the writer says. But northerners do often need to be reminded that not everything that’s wrong is the fault of those b@stards down south.
Sure, Thatcher played a part in promoting the over-centralisation and destruction of local democracy that has caused these problems – but so too has the passivity, fatalism and lack of entrepreneurial energy of the population.
To be fair to the author, since he’s 57 and left school in 1982, he probably didn’t crack year 12. I teach trade & post-trade electrical and all my students have done Y12, and I have heaps of borderline illiterates in my classes. I suspect the education trends in the UK are similar to Australia, so it’s perfectly imaginable that too many youngsters in both countries get a rubbish education in wreading and righting.
I went to a really bad comprehensive growing up with a young single mother on an extremely rough council estate during the 1980s. I still find it pretty hard to describe what went on there, especially to people who went to good schools. Learning pretty much goes out the window when you are getting sucker-punched from behind by the class sadist, or a mental-case attempts to stab you in the eye with a soldering iron, or a group of lads are stamping on your face just for fun. The borstal depicted in the 1970s film Scum was only marginally worse than the school I attended.
Despite earning a doctorate degree and starting my own business, that place left an indelible mark on me: a kind of watchful paranoia that never goes away. The one good thing that came out of that experience was that it taught me how to fight.
‘But what he describes is tainted with the attitude, which my friends don’t have, that he’s been hard done by.’
This I think is an important point. The author uses the term, ‘working class,’ but there really is no working class now, at least not in any sense of the term that my grandparents would recognise. Too often now the term ‘working class’ is used as little more than a moral, ideological and political appeal. As an empty association with over romanticised, salt-of-the-earth horny handed sons of toil, done in by Fatcha. If you pay a mortgage, drive a car or go on overseas holidays then you are not working class in any classic sense. The class system is not self-cert.
Nowadays we have an underclass, an overclass, a comfortable class (largely made up of those who got the sweet end of the property market) and a coping class. The issue with the public sector strikes is I think not so much about pay restraint necessarily, rather that people who are in work and on wages that are far from low are now in a grisly place where they are coping rather than really comfortable. Whilst I have some sympathy, it’s hardly a condition unique to the public sector.
Almost certainly the UK would have seen some level of deindustrialisation with or without Thatcher. Would an alternative economy have been put in place by another PM? Maybe, maybe not. We’ll never know. My own deindustrialised home town did have new things come along at the right time, but it is hard to escape the feeling that was the result of good luck rather than good leadership by anyone.
What the coping class need is the stability that has gone. We saw this played out at the EU referendum where easy-living comfortable class types saw the EU as a playground and a source of tenants for the BTL. The coping class saw wage arbitrage and headaches. Sadly, as the article says, it’s probably too late for the underclass. But working class is a bygone age.
I was raised in County Durham at the same time as the author, going through the same state education system. I have been fortunate to move around the country to a few other places, deciding to return to County Durham over 20 years ago. That decision was based upon being able to have a quality of life not afforded to me elsewhere in the country. I still live and work there.
The picture the author paints, is one with which I am familiar. However, not one typical of the life lived by the majority of us Durham folks.
The title of the article “Durham has become a land of zombies” is a lazy one. It should more accurately be “Like elsewhere, parts of Durham are occupied by zombies”. The author appears to have spent more time in self pity rather than self reflection, caring only to present a case of victim hood. They have a book to sell, and I suspect want to sell it to others of an equal disposition. i.e. playing to their audience.
The reasons for industrial decline in some sectors and the growth of others is worthy of honest examination, and deserves a well balanced study. Unfortunately, having a chip on both shoulders does not qualify.
I would not normally bother to comment on a story like this yet felt compelled to. Last month I went on holiday to Edinburgh. I live in Coventry, so its a long drive. I therefore decided to stop the night at a hotel in Durham. Had this not been the case I would have read the above article and assumed it to be a dystopian hell hole. To call this piece a tissue of outright lies doesn’t even come close. I found Durham to be a beautiful city full of high end restaurants and independent shops. The city centre has fared far better than many others. A vast area of the waterside has been completely redeveloped with massive new buildings and public spaces. Had I not visited for myself I would never have realised just how twisted by hatred, self pity and the worst kind of class tribalism this “author” really is.
Policing is problematic in many places. Pockets of deprivation and poverty exist everywhere. Even the worst areas of Durham look like Knightsbridge compared to what I’ve seen in Blackpool and Coventry. It’s fascinating the lies some adults will tell themselves, in order to continue believing the prejudice and hatred they were immersed in as children. Deindustrialisation has happened all across the developed world. More manufacturing jobs were lost under Blair than Thatcher. She may be a tempting hate figure, but you’d have to be fundamentally dishonest to pretend that these inevitable changes would not have happened under any government, just as they did in every other western economy.
The author unintentionally reveals the problem himself. He was brought up in a community that did not value education, that saw a life down the pit as not just inevitable but desirable. You can scream into the void, longing for a rose tinted past that never existed all you like. No leader can uninvent online shopping, close supermarkets or bring back the butcher, baker and iron monger. Let alone make coal production remotely relevant or profitable.
Quote: “A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields. Once coal was discovered, the villages were built immediately” No one has the right to route themselves and every future generation to the spot, then demand that high paying work be provided to them as a matter of entitlement. To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…
You are wrong, these large pockets of deprivation ARE the worst in in the UK. The figures are sourced and are in the book. I have spent four years on this book and unlike yourself I am very careful what I say. The title of the article (which is Unherd’s contribution) is I agree unfortunate as it is only certain parts of Country Durham that are in this state! Buy the book and try and get past the cover, it might serve you well
As a natal Northumbrian I can sympathise with much of what the writer says. But northerners do often need to be reminded that not everything that’s wrong is the fault of those b@stards down south.
Sure, Thatcher played a part in promoting the over-centralisation and destruction of local democracy that has caused these problems – but so too has the passivity, fatalism and lack of entrepreneurial energy of the population.
Steve Murray
1 year ago
I was not taught anything at my comprehensive school that might have prevented me from going down the pit, on the contrary, I was only ever given the skills required for when I inevitably found myself at the bottom of that 1,500-foot shaft. As coal could not be cut by pen, it had been decided I and many around me should remain illiterate.
Absolute nonsense, i’m afraid. You don’t spend a minimum of twelve years at school being prevented from learning to read, especially if you’ve got a reasonably able brain. You don’t learn to read of your own volition, perhaps because your mates aren’t bothering, it’s not “the thing to do”. Blaming your own self-inflicted illiteracy on “the system” signifies an ingrained-from-birth attitude towards thinking the world owes you something; it doesn’t. This seeps out into much of the rest of the article.
I have friends who live in the area. There are, of course, social problems which he describes and if the book he’s had published is based around this narrative i’ve no doubt it’ll attract attention and sympathy. But what he describes is tainted with the attitude, which my friends don’t have, that he’s been hard done by. Lest any readers take pity, let me just say that the people i know who live in the area lead perfectly good and fruitful lives.
The pockets of poverty he describes exist in many, many other places in the western world, where once thriving industries have vanished. The Durham area is no worse off than any of them. That mightn’t be much consolation for those captured in a cycle of deprivation, but they can’t be regarded as being a ‘special case’ or the responsibility of any one factor (such as Thatcher) that the simplistic narrative in this article portrays. Let’s not forget, for instance, that Tony Blair was the MP for a small Durham town, Sedgefield from 1983-2007, pretty much the period this article is concerned with. If those problems were of such concern to his constituents, i think he’d have known about it; or perhaps he too was content to let the area he represented drift.
R Wright
1 year ago
There is a lot in this essay one could easily take issue with, for example blaming Thatcher for railway privatisation (which is factually untrue), but the easiest one to focus on is this: you are blaming the state for your parents’ refusal to have you educated in basic literacy? Even in the 1980s over a decade of school was basically mandatory.
My old man was a coalminer. My mother was a ‘housewife’. Despite enjoying only rudimentary educations themselves, they made sure I could read before I even started infant school.
My old man was a coalminer. My mother was a ‘housewife’. Despite enjoying only rudimentary educations themselves, they made sure I could read before I even started infant school.
R Wright
1 year ago
There is a lot in this essay one could easily take issue with, for example blaming Thatcher for railway privatisation (which is factually untrue), but the easiest one to focus on is this: you are blaming the state for your parents’ refusal to have you educated in basic literacy? Even in the 1980s over a decade of school was basically mandatory.
Richard Abbot
1 year ago
As per the picture, the trouble with hate is that it rots the soul and twists the mind. There can therefore never be a recognition of precisely why Thatcher acted the way that she did, the damage that socialism has done, across the world, and the catastrophic effects of union power on this country.
Or the fact that, when mines closed under Wilson, there were other jobs to go to, cleaner, safer, and in many cases, better paid. Most of the mines that closed were exhausted of coal, and most miners were happy to leave and work in a factory, in 1984, especially in the North East, this wasn’t the case. The fact the unions in the 60s allowed mines to close, also dispels the myth, that the unions were unreasonable, and stuck in the past, reluctant to embrace change. Get your facts right!
In the 1960s the NUM was run by Joe Gormley who warned of the danger of the minings electing Arthur Scargill; he was correct.
The NCB could have been changed into an international mining company such as British Gas if it had been run by people who understood international trade and technology.
In the 1960s the NUM was run by Joe Gormley who warned of the danger of the minings electing Arthur Scargill; he was correct.
The NCB could have been changed into an international mining company such as British Gas if it had been run by people who understood international trade and technology.
Or the fact that, when mines closed under Wilson, there were other jobs to go to, cleaner, safer, and in many cases, better paid. Most of the mines that closed were exhausted of coal, and most miners were happy to leave and work in a factory, in 1984, especially in the North East, this wasn’t the case. The fact the unions in the 60s allowed mines to close, also dispels the myth, that the unions were unreasonable, and stuck in the past, reluctant to embrace change. Get your facts right!
Indeed. The Miner’s Strike was really an attempt to oust the government; trade issues were very much secondary. The government fought back accordingly, having learned the lessons from Heath’s humiliation, and was the better prepared.
Indeed. The Miner’s Strike was really an attempt to oust the government; trade issues were very much secondary. The government fought back accordingly, having learned the lessons from Heath’s humiliation, and was the better prepared.
Real Socialism has never been tried in the UK, so I can’t see how you can say it failed. The nearest thing we’ve had to it was the period 1955-75, and you won’t find many working-class people who lived through that period who would deny that it was a fantastic time of social improvement on many fronts
It is a shame your comment got only down votes. I was born in South London in 1955 and remember that period as generally very good. Most of my school friends lived in good quality council housing on well managed estates with very little crime or vandalism. There was hardly any homelessness.
I attended a well run comprehensive that got plenty of investment. We had a fully equipped theatre and I had riding lessons as a sport option. My teachers took full advantage of the many free art galleries and museums in London. They also regularly took us to the theatre – I saw Olivier, Plowright, Alan Bates, Ian McKellen, Diana Rigg, Vanessa Redgrave on the London stage for free.
I went to university for free all expenses paid. Of course nothing is free and the tax payer provided my education.
I am well aware that as a boomer I belong to the luckiest generation.
When I left school there were plenty of jobs to be had.
My friend left school at 15 with no qualifications but easily found work as a receptionist and remembers being able to leave one job in the morning and find another in the afternoon.
Boys at my school found work on building sites in the long summer holidays during the 70s London building boom and made a killing. Many of them arrived at school in the cars they had bought with their holiday wages.
Of course it could not last. In many ways we were living in a fool’s paradise and Thatcher was a necessary corrective. But for a while life was good. Plenty of jobs, a good education to be had for those willing to put in the effort, decent free health care and well managed public housing. Very little real poverty or deprivation.
I knew a widow with three primary age children who lived in a council flat and managed well enough working as a playground assistant in term time and looking after my sister and I in the school holidays. Nobody in her household went hungry or was in any way deprived. She was exactly the kind of person – decent, law abiding, hard working – that council housing was intended for.
We never needed to run a car because London public transport was affordable, plentiful and reliable.
Most important of all my parents were able to buy a lovely semi-detached 3 bed in a leafy road in 1966 on very modest incomes. That house proved a gold mine for our family.
It was recently put up for sale in a rather dilapidated condition and the asking price was a little shy of a million pounds and I couldn’t help noticing that what were once very nice houses on either side have had extra floors added and are now really unsightly but no doubt making a fortune for their owners.
It is a shame your comment got only down votes. I was born in South London in 1955 and remember that period as generally very good. Most of my school friends lived in good quality council housing on well managed estates with very little crime or vandalism. There was hardly any homelessness.
I attended a well run comprehensive that got plenty of investment. We had a fully equipped theatre and I had riding lessons as a sport option. My teachers took full advantage of the many free art galleries and museums in London. They also regularly took us to the theatre – I saw Olivier, Plowright, Alan Bates, Ian McKellen, Diana Rigg, Vanessa Redgrave on the London stage for free.
I went to university for free all expenses paid. Of course nothing is free and the tax payer provided my education.
I am well aware that as a boomer I belong to the luckiest generation.
When I left school there were plenty of jobs to be had.
My friend left school at 15 with no qualifications but easily found work as a receptionist and remembers being able to leave one job in the morning and find another in the afternoon.
Boys at my school found work on building sites in the long summer holidays during the 70s London building boom and made a killing. Many of them arrived at school in the cars they had bought with their holiday wages.
Of course it could not last. In many ways we were living in a fool’s paradise and Thatcher was a necessary corrective. But for a while life was good. Plenty of jobs, a good education to be had for those willing to put in the effort, decent free health care and well managed public housing. Very little real poverty or deprivation.
I knew a widow with three primary age children who lived in a council flat and managed well enough working as a playground assistant in term time and looking after my sister and I in the school holidays. Nobody in her household went hungry or was in any way deprived. She was exactly the kind of person – decent, law abiding, hard working – that council housing was intended for.
We never needed to run a car because London public transport was affordable, plentiful and reliable.
Most important of all my parents were able to buy a lovely semi-detached 3 bed in a leafy road in 1966 on very modest incomes. That house proved a gold mine for our family.
It was recently put up for sale in a rather dilapidated condition and the asking price was a little shy of a million pounds and I couldn’t help noticing that what were once very nice houses on either side have had extra floors added and are now really unsightly but no doubt making a fortune for their owners.
Real Socialism has never been tried in the UK, so I can’t see how you can say it failed. The nearest thing we’ve had to it was the period 1955-75, and you won’t find many working-class people who lived through that period who would deny that it was a fantastic time of social improvement on many fronts
Capitalism has done, and is doing, terrible damage across the world. Not least to the world itself.
It has failed, just as socialism did.
Britain in the 2020’s is even drearier than the trade union Britain of the 1970’s.
Richard Abbot
1 year ago
As per the picture, the trouble with hate is that it rots the soul and twists the mind. There can therefore never be a recognition of precisely why Thatcher acted the way that she did, the damage that socialism has done, across the world, and the catastrophic effects of union power on this country.
Claire Pellew
1 year ago
I went to school in the 80’s with a friend who’s father was brought up in a Welsh mining town. His father wanted a different life and made the choice not to go down the mines, for this he was ostracized by his family and his community and never spoke to them again. I was brought up in a northern working class family who placed no value at all in education, especially for girls. To have any kind of aspiration was viewed as ‘getting too big for your boots’. What happens to people as children is not their fault but how they deal with it as adults is. Yes the community was devastated and it all happened very quickly but how long can you argue that your life was ruined because your father/grandfather lost his job. I sound harsh, but we all have choices. The community itself has to accept that it had some part to play in the outcome. It’s very sad.
It’s not just your father losing his job though is it. It’s thousands of fathers losing their jobs at the same time, which then has a knock on effect on almost every other business in the town putting thousands more out of work. It decimated entire areas, with absolutely no effort gone into replacing those jobs that were taken away
In which case “thousands of fathers losing their jobs at the same time” was a huge hint to move elsewhere and get jobs rather than expect the State to provide.
That’s very much it. However, some people have that ‘get-up-and-go’ mentality and others simply don’t. The idea of moving away from their hometown to a different location literally terrifies them. I now live in the rural US South. In my town there are people who’ve never seen the sea despite living only 40 miles away from the nearest beach. While poverty may be to blame, there is a certain kind of poverty thinking which is about the mental limitations people place on themselves. This mentality is also to be found in places like the article above describes: a kind of intellectual stagnation that leads to depression and other such disorders.
Such a great comparative example. You are right to highlight the idea of a poverty of thinking, which is most always also a poverty of aspiration. Life always has been a tough battle against circumstance for most people.
I disagree with your sentiment. My greatest regret of the current British system is that you are expected to move for work. What happened to place, family and community?
When the best and brightest of an area leaves, what remains?
What is forgotten is that the great communities of the pit villages of the North East were created by families who moved from other parts of the country or Ireland. For the most part they were not local.
Their descendants now expect work to be brought to them. Some work was brought to the North East through subsidies and concessions such as the Nissan factory outside Sunderland but it is unrealistic to think every pit village could have attracted its own Nissan. The families needed to take a leaf out of their forefathers book and move to find work. Their forefathers had to leave communities behind that they probably would have preferred not to have done if the work could come to them.
I made the move North for work and have not regretted it. In my business one of the firms in Newcastle has grown to be one of the largest of its kind in the world dealing with an international clientele. It is not all gloom and doom in the North East.
Since Thatcher many have moved away to find work. Mnay of those who did were the more enlightened in those communities, exacerbating the situation due to a brain drain. Many young people now go to Uni and never return. Nevertheless, you can’t expect everyone to move away, house prices and rents in the places where the work is, won’t allow that.
Thanks for that, I live in Sunderland and work for an international company in County Durham.
I generally disagree with subsidies but implying the NE get more than elsewhere is a farce.
I speak to people daily with their own businesses who are struggling to hire in a worker driven market. The NE is not lacking business, it is lacking competency.
I went to University and in my final year rember speaking to people about jobs. “I have applied here, I have applied there” they would say, “Where are those companies” I would ask, no one even cared.
I have read about booms and revolutions where people would move for work but this for me is not and should not be the norm. This was about surving not about 20% more and a better night life.
Your third paragraph resonated with me. Competency is often the outcome of attitude.
A friend told me he employed foreign workers in his restaurants in and about Sunderland because they had both the right attitude and skills. I have experienced bizarre behaviour from native born staff in Sunderland restaurants that lack the basic skills of say an Italian waiter. That said one of the best places to eat good food at a very reasonable price in both Sunderland and Peterlee are at the catering College restaurants. I am not sure where the staff end up.
I am not certain what your next paragraph is saying. Were your fellow students applying for work locally or elsewhere and what did they not care about?
Why do you feel that it should not be the norm to move to where employment is rather than expect businesses to move to where you are? My youngest son was lucky to find a job ten minutes from where he lives but is equally prepared in order to secure career advancement to move elsewhere if that is needed. The idea fostered by Ronnie Chambers that everyone needs to move to London for work and live in tents is an absurdity.
Of course there have been periods in the past when economies were largely agrarian where families lived for centuries in the same small village but moving today is infinitely easier than in the past.
I was saying that rather than need to move for work, they simply have no notion of home. No predisposition to look for work near home.
Moving for me would be a last resort, I am not equally prepared but realistic. I don’t expect work to come to people, I just feel it fairly available.
I don’t know anything about you but I have conservative instincts. Similar distinctions have been drawn by many authors between, as David Goodhart put, Anywheres and Somewheres. I suspect I am far closer to the somewhere than you. Closer than most people perhaps.
Thanks for that clarification. I entirely understand a preference for staying where your friends, family and roots are but a lot of students deliberately chose to go to University to experience something different to their family surroundings and friends – to widen their experience and then move on to establish roots elsewhere.
As you say it is a matter of temperament. I was happy to uproot myself to move to the supposedly dismal North East whereas my wife would be reluctant to leave the North East even for the lure of the attractions of the more prosperous South.
What I think is an error is to expect employers and government to pander to the preference of those who want to stay. Such an expectation involves an element of narcissism. Employers might move their business to an area that had a pool of employees with the right attitude and willingness to acquire the relevant skills but that should not be an expectation. It is up to the stayers to make the establishment of local work attractive to potential employers. Nissan found enough employees with the right attitude, but the attitudes displayed in the areas described by the author can have little attraction to potential employers.The more they rail against Thatcher the less attractive they will seem.
I am afraid the world belongs to the anywhere people. My brother-in-law had a very successful career because he was willing to move across the country several times in order to better his situation.
I was just incredibly lucky to find work in one of the most beautiful parts of England and to be able to settle here because there are plenty of jobs to be had.
Back then house prices were sensible. I could never afford to live here now if I had not bought my house back then.
Thanks for that clarification. I entirely understand a preference for staying where your friends, family and roots are but a lot of students deliberately chose to go to University to experience something different to their family surroundings and friends – to widen their experience and then move on to establish roots elsewhere.
As you say it is a matter of temperament. I was happy to uproot myself to move to the supposedly dismal North East whereas my wife would be reluctant to leave the North East even for the lure of the attractions of the more prosperous South.
What I think is an error is to expect employers and government to pander to the preference of those who want to stay. Such an expectation involves an element of narcissism. Employers might move their business to an area that had a pool of employees with the right attitude and willingness to acquire the relevant skills but that should not be an expectation. It is up to the stayers to make the establishment of local work attractive to potential employers. Nissan found enough employees with the right attitude, but the attitudes displayed in the areas described by the author can have little attraction to potential employers.The more they rail against Thatcher the less attractive they will seem.
I am afraid the world belongs to the anywhere people. My brother-in-law had a very successful career because he was willing to move across the country several times in order to better his situation.
I was just incredibly lucky to find work in one of the most beautiful parts of England and to be able to settle here because there are plenty of jobs to be had.
Back then house prices were sensible. I could never afford to live here now if I had not bought my house back then.
It is better then to be an anywhere person than a somewhere person. Happy to up sticks and follow the work. Loyalty to one’s roots then seems a recipe for a wasted life.
I was saying that rather than need to move for work, they simply have no notion of home. No predisposition to look for work near home.
Moving for me would be a last resort, I am not equally prepared but realistic. I don’t expect work to come to people, I just feel it fairly available.
I don’t know anything about you but I have conservative instincts. Similar distinctions have been drawn by many authors between, as David Goodhart put, Anywheres and Somewheres. I suspect I am far closer to the somewhere than you. Closer than most people perhaps.
It is better then to be an anywhere person than a somewhere person. Happy to up sticks and follow the work. Loyalty to one’s roots then seems a recipe for a wasted life.
Your third paragraph resonated with me. Competency is often the outcome of attitude.
A friend told me he employed foreign workers in his restaurants in and about Sunderland because they had both the right attitude and skills. I have experienced bizarre behaviour from native born staff in Sunderland restaurants that lack the basic skills of say an Italian waiter. That said one of the best places to eat good food at a very reasonable price in both Sunderland and Peterlee are at the catering College restaurants. I am not sure where the staff end up.
I am not certain what your next paragraph is saying. Were your fellow students applying for work locally or elsewhere and what did they not care about?
Why do you feel that it should not be the norm to move to where employment is rather than expect businesses to move to where you are? My youngest son was lucky to find a job ten minutes from where he lives but is equally prepared in order to secure career advancement to move elsewhere if that is needed. The idea fostered by Ronnie Chambers that everyone needs to move to London for work and live in tents is an absurdity.
Of course there have been periods in the past when economies were largely agrarian where families lived for centuries in the same small village but moving today is infinitely easier than in the past.
Since Thatcher many have moved away to find work. Mnay of those who did were the more enlightened in those communities, exacerbating the situation due to a brain drain. Many young people now go to Uni and never return. Nevertheless, you can’t expect everyone to move away, house prices and rents in the places where the work is, won’t allow that.
Thanks for that, I live in Sunderland and work for an international company in County Durham.
I generally disagree with subsidies but implying the NE get more than elsewhere is a farce.
I speak to people daily with their own businesses who are struggling to hire in a worker driven market. The NE is not lacking business, it is lacking competency.
I went to University and in my final year rember speaking to people about jobs. “I have applied here, I have applied there” they would say, “Where are those companies” I would ask, no one even cared.
I have read about booms and revolutions where people would move for work but this for me is not and should not be the norm. This was about surving not about 20% more and a better night life.
What is forgotten is that the great communities of the pit villages of the North East were created by families who moved from other parts of the country or Ireland. For the most part they were not local.
Their descendants now expect work to be brought to them. Some work was brought to the North East through subsidies and concessions such as the Nissan factory outside Sunderland but it is unrealistic to think every pit village could have attracted its own Nissan. The families needed to take a leaf out of their forefathers book and move to find work. Their forefathers had to leave communities behind that they probably would have preferred not to have done if the work could come to them.
I made the move North for work and have not regretted it. In my business one of the firms in Newcastle has grown to be one of the largest of its kind in the world dealing with an international clientele. It is not all gloom and doom in the North East.
I disagree with your sentiment. My greatest regret of the current British system is that you are expected to move for work. What happened to place, family and community?
When the best and brightest of an area leaves, what remains?
True, some of those problems existed in mining areas even when the mines were going at full throttle and there was full employment. Mining was brutal and made many people behave in a certain way, different from almost every other type of worker. However, being able to work was the crux of the matter, and people generally just bobbed along from day to day. Being unable to work, exacerbated those problems, and the house of cards came crashing down, in these once self-sufficient communities.
Such a great comparative example. You are right to highlight the idea of a poverty of thinking, which is most always also a poverty of aspiration. Life always has been a tough battle against circumstance for most people.
True, some of those problems existed in mining areas even when the mines were going at full throttle and there was full employment. Mining was brutal and made many people behave in a certain way, different from almost every other type of worker. However, being able to work was the crux of the matter, and people generally just bobbed along from day to day. Being unable to work, exacerbated those problems, and the house of cards came crashing down, in these once self-sufficient communities.
Towns and communities arise from the people in them. If the people within them are affected by lack of employment and opportunities (as laid out in the article) then the towns and communities lose their original reason for being.
Can the towns and communities reinvent themselves? It’s been done, but not by people content only to be discontented.
In County Durham, the powers that be realised this in the 1950s, when Labour controlled councils, packed with radical Socialist thinkers, implemented the much-maligned Category D policy, a policy of moving people out of ex-mining villages into New Towns with new housing and new jobs. It worked quite well. Where are the radical thinkers of today?. It can be done, could be done if modern-day politicians with no real understanding of what its like to live on the other side of the tracks experience, weren’t obsessed with lining their own pockets
In County Durham, the powers that be realised this in the 1950s, when Labour controlled councils, packed with radical Socialist thinkers, implemented the much-maligned Category D policy, a policy of moving people out of ex-mining villages into New Towns with new housing and new jobs. It worked quite well. Where are the radical thinkers of today?. It can be done, could be done if modern-day politicians with no real understanding of what its like to live on the other side of the tracks experience, weren’t obsessed with lining their own pockets
That does seem to be the consensus on here. Which means that the place where the author lives and others like it would presumably end up as deserted ghost towns and eventually be reclaimed by the wilderness which has happened to certain parts of Detroit which are now empty of people and rapidly turning back into prairie and becoming home to cougars, wolves, coyotes and black bears.
I think it really is a tragedy that communities are destroyed this way but it has always been the way of things – go where the work is or stagnate.
Towns and communities arise from the people in them. If the people within them are affected by lack of employment and opportunities (as laid out in the article) then the towns and communities lose their original reason for being.
Can the towns and communities reinvent themselves? It’s been done, but not by people content only to be discontented.
That does seem to be the consensus on here. Which means that the place where the author lives and others like it would presumably end up as deserted ghost towns and eventually be reclaimed by the wilderness which has happened to certain parts of Detroit which are now empty of people and rapidly turning back into prairie and becoming home to cougars, wolves, coyotes and black bears.
I think it really is a tragedy that communities are destroyed this way but it has always been the way of things – go where the work is or stagnate.
That’s very much it. However, some people have that ‘get-up-and-go’ mentality and others simply don’t. The idea of moving away from their hometown to a different location literally terrifies them. I now live in the rural US South. In my town there are people who’ve never seen the sea despite living only 40 miles away from the nearest beach. While poverty may be to blame, there is a certain kind of poverty thinking which is about the mental limitations people place on themselves. This mentality is also to be found in places like the article above describes: a kind of intellectual stagnation that leads to depression and other such disorders.
In which case “thousands of fathers losing their jobs at the same time” was a huge hint to move elsewhere and get jobs rather than expect the State to provide.
It’s not just your father losing his job though is it. It’s thousands of fathers losing their jobs at the same time, which then has a knock on effect on almost every other business in the town putting thousands more out of work. It decimated entire areas, with absolutely no effort gone into replacing those jobs that were taken away
Claire Pellew
1 year ago
I went to school in the 80’s with a friend who’s father was brought up in a Welsh mining town. His father wanted a different life and made the choice not to go down the mines, for this he was ostracized by his family and his community and never spoke to them again. I was brought up in a northern working class family who placed no value at all in education, especially for girls. To have any kind of aspiration was viewed as ‘getting too big for your boots’. What happens to people as children is not their fault but how they deal with it as adults is. Yes the community was devastated and it all happened very quickly but how long can you argue that your life was ruined because your father/grandfather lost his job. I sound harsh, but we all have choices. The community itself has to accept that it had some part to play in the outcome. It’s very sad.
Charlie Two
1 year ago
This Pip (bet he wasnt called that at school!) is the real problem with the NE. I am a born and bred, still live here, NEasterner. He is a typical “i hate the pit but you closed it you swine wah wah its everyone’s fault but ours” type.
Despite “I’ve heard many so-called experts over the years say it is difficult to link the social depravation and high levels of crime directly to Thatcher’s deliberate policies of deindustrialisation. All I can conclude from this is that there is no such thing as an expert.” the economic fact was that Scargill and his commie b@tches made australian coal, floated at great expense across several oceans, more economic than the stuff dug 2 miles down the road. the miners closed the pits. same re the shipyards where relatives of mine worked in the 20s and 30s; old fashioned, high cost, always striking and delayed piles of you know what that no-one with a brain would ask to build a ship. they closed themselves.
But no, “then came Thatcher”. This guy is a joke. The bit about the Falklands and Thatcher “single-handedly taking back the Falkland Islands despite never pulling on a pair of boots or leaving London” sums him up: chippy as eff, low intellect, victim complex, needs an excuse, wants a handout, convinced that his sense of humour is incredible and unique. Oh yeah, its unique all right.
I cant wait to not buy the book.
PS it was his father and mother and his fault he didnt learn to read until he was 102 or whatever. not Thatcher’s. but if he wants to blame someone, between 65 and 79 (when he went to primary school and secondary) it was mostly Labour that was in charge: 4 labour governments no less. Go cry about them. And 96-2010?? Labour. wah wah! You’re an embarrassment to my people.
What a nitwit!
‘You’re an embarrassment to My people!’ Who are YOUR people? There can’t be another one like you!’ I say in the book I’m pleased the pits are gone! But best you don’t buy it
What a nitwit!
‘You’re an embarrassment to My people!’ Who are YOUR people? There can’t be another one like you!’ I say in the book I’m pleased the pits are gone! But best you don’t buy it
This Pip (bet he wasnt called that at school!) is the real problem with the NE. I am a born and bred, still live here, NEasterner. He is a typical “i hate the pit but you closed it you swine wah wah its everyone’s fault but ours” type.
Despite “I’ve heard many so-called experts over the years say it is difficult to link the social depravation and high levels of crime directly to Thatcher’s deliberate policies of deindustrialisation. All I can conclude from this is that there is no such thing as an expert.” the economic fact was that Scargill and his commie b@tches made australian coal, floated at great expense across several oceans, more economic than the stuff dug 2 miles down the road. the miners closed the pits. same re the shipyards where relatives of mine worked in the 20s and 30s; old fashioned, high cost, always striking and delayed piles of you know what that no-one with a brain would ask to build a ship. they closed themselves.
But no, “then came Thatcher”. This guy is a joke. The bit about the Falklands and Thatcher “single-handedly taking back the Falkland Islands despite never pulling on a pair of boots or leaving London” sums him up: chippy as eff, low intellect, victim complex, needs an excuse, wants a handout, convinced that his sense of humour is incredible and unique. Oh yeah, its unique all right.
I cant wait to not buy the book.
PS it was his father and mother and his fault he didnt learn to read until he was 102 or whatever. not Thatcher’s. but if he wants to blame someone, between 65 and 79 (when he went to primary school and secondary) it was mostly Labour that was in charge: 4 labour governments no less. Go cry about them. And 96-2010?? Labour. wah wah! You’re an embarrassment to my people.
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Probably the biggest factor involved in failing to learn in the classroom is attitude towards education. If the parents don’t value education, neither will the children, which undermines the teacher and frequently results in unruly behaviour in the classroom. Teachers have virtually no power in the classroom so without respect their job becomes impossible. Parental support is generally required if a child is to learn to read. Children of many immigrants not only learn to read at school but have to learn to speak English first. It would have been interesting if the author had provided a proper analysis of his failure at school. Maybe he could help those children he sees who are now failing at school. Maybe he could teach them the value of education or teach some children to read.
Exactly. The author doesn’t explain how children of, say, Chinese descent do so well inspite of the fact that, in many cases, their parents don’t speak English and the alphabet we use isn’t familiar to them. At worst it’s a pathetic whine.
So far as industrial decline is concerned, look north to Clydebank and the farce surrounding the construction of the QE2 at John Brown. Constant disruption by 30-40 unions ensured that it was the last ship of any size to be built there. This was the 1960s before anyone knew who Thatcher was.
The Chinese couple who ran the local fish and chip shop (best in town – shame they retired) had a son who went to Oxford and a daughter who went to Cambridge. The parents’ English was pretty good but not quite fluent. The son and daughter helped sell fish and chips during the holidays.
There are always exceptions to the rule, and the fact these children had parents prepared to move to better themselves gives them a good start in life. How many children stuck in China make something of themselves? Probably many experiencing the same poverty British mining families experienced 100 years ago. The Chinese do seem to have a high worker work ethic though, but then again so did the Geordie back in the day.
The Chinese couple who ran the local fish and chip shop (best in town – shame they retired) had a son who went to Oxford and a daughter who went to Cambridge. The parents’ English was pretty good but not quite fluent. The son and daughter helped sell fish and chips during the holidays.
There are always exceptions to the rule, and the fact these children had parents prepared to move to better themselves gives them a good start in life. How many children stuck in China make something of themselves? Probably many experiencing the same poverty British mining families experienced 100 years ago. The Chinese do seem to have a high worker work ethic though, but then again so did the Geordie back in the day.
Labour damaged education in 1945 when they did not introduce the tripartite system- sec’ mods, technical and grammar and insisted on raising the leaving age. What should have taken place is leave school at 14 years of age but attend night school to study maths, english, science , etc relevant to job.If failed exams have to retake them. Many children who do not want to be in school after the age of 14 years hinder the education of others.
Labour damaged education in 1945 when they did not introduce the tripartite system- sec’ mods, technical and grammar and insisted on raising the leaving age. What should have taken place is leave school at 14 years of age but attend night school to study maths, english, science , etc relevant to job.If failed exams have to retake them. Many children who do not want to be in school after the age of 14 years hinder the education of others.
Exactly. The author doesn’t explain how children of, say, Chinese descent do so well inspite of the fact that, in many cases, their parents don’t speak English and the alphabet we use isn’t familiar to them. At worst it’s a pathetic whine.
So far as industrial decline is concerned, look north to Clydebank and the farce surrounding the construction of the QE2 at John Brown. Constant disruption by 30-40 unions ensured that it was the last ship of any size to be built there. This was the 1960s before anyone knew who Thatcher was.
You can thank the late, wretched, Anthony (Tony) Crosland, the destroyer of the Grammar Schools, for much of this.
Mercifully the ‘Reaper’ scythed him down at 58.
ps. This censorship is insane!
Last edited 11 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Probably the biggest factor involved in failing to learn in the classroom is attitude towards education. If the parents don’t value education, neither will the children, which undermines the teacher and frequently results in unruly behaviour in the classroom. Teachers have virtually no power in the classroom so without respect their job becomes impossible. Parental support is generally required if a child is to learn to read. Children of many immigrants not only learn to read at school but have to learn to speak English first. It would have been interesting if the author had provided a proper analysis of his failure at school. Maybe he could help those children he sees who are now failing at school. Maybe he could teach them the value of education or teach some children to read.
Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
D Glover
1 year ago
As coal could not be cut by pen, it had been decided I and many around me should remain illiterate.
Seriously? In about ten years of free, compulsory state education no-one tried to teach you to read? I’m also working class and don’t remember anything like what you’ve described.
There are thousands of us in County Durham. Fact! There were even less opportunities for the females. Domestic science
D Glover
1 year ago
As coal could not be cut by pen, it had been decided I and many around me should remain illiterate.
Seriously? In about ten years of free, compulsory state education no-one tried to teach you to read? I’m also working class and don’t remember anything like what you’ve described.
John Dellingby
1 year ago
While I’m sure we can blame Thatcher till the cows come home, the facts are that she left office well over 30 years ago and that these industries were in decline before hand. Harold Wilson after all closed more mines than Thatcher did.
If what the author said is true of how far his community has fallen, it’s quite staggering that the remaining residents haven’t resorted to vigilantism (ironically, the Police would probably be on that very quickly) or that some hard right party hasn’t stepped in to take advantage of this in one form or another.
It’s not just that industries were in decline, some of which (but not all) were inevitable with the cost saving efficiencies of globalisation. There was zero transition to new economies – the rust belt in the USA is similar, now drug and gang filled in similarly alarming ways (as told to me by two young men who jacked a car and drove west who I paid for a summer and let live in my place). In my separate post (still being mediated) I give two of probably 30 examples of the destructive societal impact of Thatcherism… so many here on Unherd opine about lost values and the old ways – your own heroine was the figurehead of that decline
The point regarding zero transition is fair but while something should have been done, I don’t think it is obvious what.
There were reforms in education but they don’t seem to have achieved much, in fact, arguably with education such a political football and higher education such a pyramid scheme, maybe it’s worse.
Like any government there was success and failure and the extent to which we can judge these through the eyes of the people at that time is limited.
Moreover, I think that the difficulties we are encountering now may have been less had some Thatcherite policies been in place. Less debt, fewer zombie businesses, fewer people on out of work benefits. I don’t expect you to agree but life could have been worse had the policies not been enacted
Are there examples of countries that planned deindustrialisation in the traditional manufacturing areas? That co-operated with the unions in introducing new industries in a coordinated fashion to pace the decline and directly replace the old jobs lost?
Germany, well it would have to be, wouldn’t it? bloody good at everything those buggers. And they had to do it at the same time as taking on a new country in East Germany, imagine the scale of transformation?, yet they were largely successful in integrating the former GDR into West Germany.
Germany achieved great things with its excellent partnership between business and unions which encouraged and enabled modernisation without conflict, and its once burgeoning mittelstand. But these advantages are waning with increasing militancy from an insecure and underpaid workforce, and the accelerating collapse of small and medium businesses. With a housing crisis not dissimilar to ours and with food inflation higher than ours things are no longer sweet. Now with no more cheap Russian gas (thanks to the US who wish to replace it with their own more expensive liquified gas), and decline in trade with China (once again in no small part thanks to restrictive US policy) they face deindustrialisation on a scale they have so far avoided. Let’s see how they get on.
Between 1948 and 1963, there were no restrictions on industry : the unions were crafts ones who could read balance sheets and pay was based upon profits not overtime; there were no demarcation disputes, wild cat strikes, secondary picketing, POETS Days, Spanish Practices or protection of shoddy workers;unions supported new technology and upgrading of skills and education. Education was biased towards applied science and engineering while Fraunhofer Institutes undertook comercial research. People readily acepted being educated to one or two levels above which they worked. Compare the level of maths, science and engineering of people entering un, semi and skilled work with that of Britain. Quality underpinned German thinking, not what can I gety away with?
There was no massive drain of talent to overseas work from craftsmen to professors of science and engineering. The talent which causes a nation to rise may only be 15 to 25% of the population so a slight reduction greatly reduces development.
The unions of Britain were dom inated Britain were un and semi skilled which wanted to keep full employment at the expense of introducing new technology, upgrading skills and moving from low to advanced manufacturing which would have meant losing members to craft unions. In addition, they ignored the end of the British Empire, the closure of the Suez Canal, the opening up of vast open cast mines producing coal, iron ore, copper ore, bauxite and the emergence of Germany, Japan and S Korea. The mines used excavators built in Germany whose buckets were the size of houses. Japan and S korea were constructing larger ships ( capable of carrying 100sK T of oil, ores and grains ), cheaper with shorter delivery times and less faults. The Wear mainly constructed merchant ships. Dock strikes slowed imports and exports and resulted in damge to goods. Shipbuilding was a major buyer of steel which bought coal for coking.
.
Between 1948 and 1963, there were no restrictions on industry : the unions were crafts ones who could read balance sheets and pay was based upon profits not overtime; there were no demarcation disputes, wild cat strikes, secondary picketing, POETS Days, Spanish Practices or protection of shoddy workers;unions supported new technology and upgrading of skills and education. Education was biased towards applied science and engineering while Fraunhofer Institutes undertook comercial research. People readily acepted being educated to one or two levels above which they worked. Compare the level of maths, science and engineering of people entering un, semi and skilled work with that of Britain. Quality underpinned German thinking, not what can I gety away with?
There was no massive drain of talent to overseas work from craftsmen to professors of science and engineering. The talent which causes a nation to rise may only be 15 to 25% of the population so a slight reduction greatly reduces development.
The unions of Britain were dom inated Britain were un and semi skilled which wanted to keep full employment at the expense of introducing new technology, upgrading skills and moving from low to advanced manufacturing which would have meant losing members to craft unions. In addition, they ignored the end of the British Empire, the closure of the Suez Canal, the opening up of vast open cast mines producing coal, iron ore, copper ore, bauxite and the emergence of Germany, Japan and S Korea. The mines used excavators built in Germany whose buckets were the size of houses. Japan and S korea were constructing larger ships ( capable of carrying 100sK T of oil, ores and grains ), cheaper with shorter delivery times and less faults. The Wear mainly constructed merchant ships. Dock strikes slowed imports and exports and resulted in damge to goods. Shipbuilding was a major buyer of steel which bought coal for coking.
.
Germany achieved great things with its excellent partnership between business and unions which encouraged and enabled modernisation without conflict, and its once burgeoning mittelstand. But these advantages are waning with increasing militancy from an insecure and underpaid workforce, and the accelerating collapse of small and medium businesses. With a housing crisis not dissimilar to ours and with food inflation higher than ours things are no longer sweet. Now with no more cheap Russian gas (thanks to the US who wish to replace it with their own more expensive liquified gas), and decline in trade with China (once again in no small part thanks to restrictive US policy) they face deindustrialisation on a scale they have so far avoided. Let’s see how they get on.
Germany, well it would have to be, wouldn’t it? bloody good at everything those buggers. And they had to do it at the same time as taking on a new country in East Germany, imagine the scale of transformation?, yet they were largely successful in integrating the former GDR into West Germany.
The point regarding zero transition is fair but while something should have been done, I don’t think it is obvious what.
There were reforms in education but they don’t seem to have achieved much, in fact, arguably with education such a political football and higher education such a pyramid scheme, maybe it’s worse.
Like any government there was success and failure and the extent to which we can judge these through the eyes of the people at that time is limited.
Moreover, I think that the difficulties we are encountering now may have been less had some Thatcherite policies been in place. Less debt, fewer zombie businesses, fewer people on out of work benefits. I don’t expect you to agree but life could have been worse had the policies not been enacted
Are there examples of countries that planned deindustrialisation in the traditional manufacturing areas? That co-operated with the unions in introducing new industries in a coordinated fashion to pace the decline and directly replace the old jobs lost?
There is such a low level of policing among such a high level of vigilantism plus drug wars that is now a Wild West of no-go zones. It’s about time the BBC walked around with their cameras because seeing is believing!
The Socialist principles and sense of community that existed in mining communities didn’t just end overnight with the closure of the mines. The previously organised structure and culture carried on for 10-20 years after that, then it slowly began to erode, as the local community activists/leaders passed away and weren’t replaced. The threat of lawlessness and far-right activity was kept at bay. It does however now feel that a crossroads has been reached, and these once proud communities are on the verge of breaking down, and indeed those things you mention cold well take hold.
It’s not just that industries were in decline, some of which (but not all) were inevitable with the cost saving efficiencies of globalisation. There was zero transition to new economies – the rust belt in the USA is similar, now drug and gang filled in similarly alarming ways (as told to me by two young men who jacked a car and drove west who I paid for a summer and let live in my place). In my separate post (still being mediated) I give two of probably 30 examples of the destructive societal impact of Thatcherism… so many here on Unherd opine about lost values and the old ways – your own heroine was the figurehead of that decline
There is such a low level of policing among such a high level of vigilantism plus drug wars that is now a Wild West of no-go zones. It’s about time the BBC walked around with their cameras because seeing is believing!
The Socialist principles and sense of community that existed in mining communities didn’t just end overnight with the closure of the mines. The previously organised structure and culture carried on for 10-20 years after that, then it slowly began to erode, as the local community activists/leaders passed away and weren’t replaced. The threat of lawlessness and far-right activity was kept at bay. It does however now feel that a crossroads has been reached, and these once proud communities are on the verge of breaking down, and indeed those things you mention cold well take hold.
John Dellingby
1 year ago
While I’m sure we can blame Thatcher till the cows come home, the facts are that she left office well over 30 years ago and that these industries were in decline before hand. Harold Wilson after all closed more mines than Thatcher did.
If what the author said is true of how far his community has fallen, it’s quite staggering that the remaining residents haven’t resorted to vigilantism (ironically, the Police would probably be on that very quickly) or that some hard right party hasn’t stepped in to take advantage of this in one form or another.
Saul D
1 year ago
This reads like the destruction of a community not able to look after itself. Unable to police itself so the community feels safe. Unable to educate itself even when schools are provided. Unable to find self-respect, drifting into drink and drugs or other medications instead of standing up and doing something to make the community better. Reliant on someone else – the big employer – to provide jobs and help. Even the pain and ‘bad-life syndrome’ gets blamed on someone else, someone exterior.
Learning to read to beat illiteracy requires hard work, dedication and time, otherwise you’re left relying on someone else to read for you. Learning to thrive to beat despair also requires hard work, dedication and time otherwise you’re left relying on someone else to fix your life for you. Community starts one letter, one word, one act of kindness at a time – don’t give it away and then complain that someone else controls your life and doesn’t care.
This cycle of dependency is costing billions and getting bigger and more difunctional by the day. The poverty industry is booming and the book discusses how we can break this cycle.
This cycle of dependency is costing billions and getting bigger and more difunctional by the day. The poverty industry is booming and the book discusses how we can break this cycle.
Saul D
1 year ago
This reads like the destruction of a community not able to look after itself. Unable to police itself so the community feels safe. Unable to educate itself even when schools are provided. Unable to find self-respect, drifting into drink and drugs or other medications instead of standing up and doing something to make the community better. Reliant on someone else – the big employer – to provide jobs and help. Even the pain and ‘bad-life syndrome’ gets blamed on someone else, someone exterior.
Learning to read to beat illiteracy requires hard work, dedication and time, otherwise you’re left relying on someone else to read for you. Learning to thrive to beat despair also requires hard work, dedication and time otherwise you’re left relying on someone else to fix your life for you. Community starts one letter, one word, one act of kindness at a time – don’t give it away and then complain that someone else controls your life and doesn’t care.
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
“It was spite.”
Yes indeed it was, a spiteful diatribe in fact, for which the author should be ashamed.
Why should he be ashamed? Thatchers policies made thousands upon thousands of lives immeasurably worse, so why shouldn’t those people celebrate her demise?
Indeed. The author, once he became literate, would have learned a better lesson from “Hillbilly Elegy”. J.D. Vance grew up in desperate poverty in Appalachia – America’s equivalent of Britain’s forgotten North – but went on to graduate from Yale and is now a U.S. senator. This bitter (and grammatically odd) screed does no favors to the author’s damaged psyche.
The writer has clearly done fine for himself, learning to read, writing a book and travelling the world. However whereas Vance looks back on those he grew up around with scorn, this writer looks back on those in his home town with pity. Vance’s escape was the army, without it he’d have no doubt ended up no better than those drug addled neighbours he now looks down on
It wasn’t a criticism, I agree with the points you make the way the old industrial towns were gutted was callous, and society is paying today for Thatchers lack of foresight. From poorly run and expensive privatised public services and utilities, a housing crisis due to selling off all the council houses and believing “the market” would replace them (even though it’s in the markets interest to keep house prices inflated), the gut economy due to various union busting laws stripping power from workers to demand higher wages, the bulk of these problems started with Thatchers reforms, and the subsequent PMs who have simply carried them on are equally responsible
It wasn’t a criticism, I agree with the points you make the way the old industrial towns were gutted was callous, and society is paying today for Thatchers lack of foresight. From poorly run and expensive privatised public services and utilities, a housing crisis due to selling off all the council houses and believing “the market” would replace them (even though it’s in the markets interest to keep house prices inflated), the gut economy due to various union busting laws stripping power from workers to demand higher wages, the bulk of these problems started with Thatchers reforms, and the subsequent PMs who have simply carried them on are equally responsible
The writer has clearly done fine for himself, learning to read, writing a book and travelling the world. However whereas Vance looks back on those he grew up around with scorn, this writer looks back on those in his home town with pity. Vance’s escape was the army, without it he’d have no doubt ended up no better than those drug addled neighbours he now looks down on
Why should he be ashamed? Thatchers policies made thousands upon thousands of lives immeasurably worse, so why shouldn’t those people celebrate her demise?
Indeed. The author, once he became literate, would have learned a better lesson from “Hillbilly Elegy”. J.D. Vance grew up in desperate poverty in Appalachia – America’s equivalent of Britain’s forgotten North – but went on to graduate from Yale and is now a U.S. senator. This bitter (and grammatically odd) screed does no favors to the author’s damaged psyche.
You should be ashamed, voting for the b***h. Still, I suppose you are all right Jack, and only think of yourself and not others.
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
“It was spite.”
Yes indeed it was, a spiteful diatribe in fact, for which the author should be ashamed.
Colin MacDonald
1 year ago
It’s not Thatcher trying to stop coal now! Our Green unacknowledged legislators are also now to kill a different extractive industry. North Sea oil. Where many of those made redundant by the collapse of heavy industry in North East England now work. And now Aberdeen is starting to resemble Middlesborough. At least Thatcher had the excuse she was trying to balance the books, deep coal in the UK needed state subsidies. Oil on the other hand is a cash cow for the state
Colin MacDonald
1 year ago
It’s not Thatcher trying to stop coal now! Our Green unacknowledged legislators are also now to kill a different extractive industry. North Sea oil. Where many of those made redundant by the collapse of heavy industry in North East England now work. And now Aberdeen is starting to resemble Middlesborough. At least Thatcher had the excuse she was trying to balance the books, deep coal in the UK needed state subsidies. Oil on the other hand is a cash cow for the state
Jonathan Andrews
1 year ago
“It is hard to believe one person in the top job could change the personality of a nation. From a once caring and united community-driven society to the fractured and divided, “I’m alright Jack, ‘loads ov money,” dog-eat-dog existence we are enduring today, but it happened. And it happened in my lifetime.”
I lived through this era too, in industrialised South Wales and my recollection is a struggle against huge unions and stories of how they bullied individuals. Against waste and inefficiency, resources starved from entrepreneurs and transferred to powerful in groups.
Of course people suffered, many unjustly and communities were harmed but let’s not pretend that the world before Maggie was one of milk and honey.
Agree, though the period between 1955 and 1975, was generally one of an upward trajectory for ordinary working-class people. It’s this period that people ( especially those that are struggling to look back on fondly and compare and contrast with today. There was hope then, there isn’t now, and the removal of hope can’t be underestimated.
Agree, though the period between 1955 and 1975, was generally one of an upward trajectory for ordinary working-class people. It’s this period that people ( especially those that are struggling to look back on fondly and compare and contrast with today. There was hope then, there isn’t now, and the removal of hope can’t be underestimated.
Jonathan Andrews
1 year ago
“It is hard to believe one person in the top job could change the personality of a nation. From a once caring and united community-driven society to the fractured and divided, “I’m alright Jack, ‘loads ov money,” dog-eat-dog existence we are enduring today, but it happened. And it happened in my lifetime.”
I lived through this era too, in industrialised South Wales and my recollection is a struggle against huge unions and stories of how they bullied individuals. Against waste and inefficiency, resources starved from entrepreneurs and transferred to powerful in groups.
Of course people suffered, many unjustly and communities were harmed but let’s not pretend that the world before Maggie was one of milk and honey.
David Walters
1 year ago
Maybe those miners should not have used the strike weapon to attempt to oust an elected British government? Just sayin.’
Firstly, they didnt, but even if they did, why wouldn’t you want to oust a government that has always done you harm? Cant the same be said of Tories and trades unions?
Firstly, they didnt, but even if they did, why wouldn’t you want to oust a government that has always done you harm? Cant the same be said of Tories and trades unions?
David Walters
1 year ago
Maybe those miners should not have used the strike weapon to attempt to oust an elected British government? Just sayin.’
Robb Maclean
1 year ago
I think the lady you should blame for the ‘woes’ of which you speak is Barbara Castle.
Labour closed more mines than the Tories.
Labour nationalised the shipyards in the disastrous Labour government of Harold Wilson in 1966.
Ship-building in the UK became a joke, utterly outclassed by the Japanese and latterly the Korean yards.
The quality control in British yards was and is abysmal. No pride in their work, slapdash ‘it will do’ attitude prevailed and still prevails. Look only to the disaster that is the ferry contract to build two ferries by Fergusons for the Scottish ‘Government’, 6 years late and 5 times over budget, rusting on the stocks and afloat.
The Glen Sannox might be pressed into service, it is doubtful Hull 802 will even be launched.
Then British Steel, nationalised in 1966 in the ‘White Heat of Technology’, losing £1m per minute in 1979.
Ravenscraig, shut down on the orders of the EEC to allow a failing Dutch steelworks to survive.
There is more, much more.
Don’t blame Margaret Thatcher, she merely cleared out the Augean stables level of a mess of British industry created by the Labour Goverments of the 60s and 70s.
Your points outclass Pip’s blinded analysis of the decline of British heavy industry. You’re spot on regarding the mindless nationalisation, combined with the apparent poor levels of industrial management and working attitudes after ww2, and then there’s the trade unions part in all this, crippling industries for the sake of the workers, which just backfired on them, and creating the s***holes which they were forced to grow up and wallow in. Thatcher, as you rightly say, cleared up and put theUK back on a reasonable path to a viable economy. All those victims in the industrial regions have a right to their opinions on her, but they’re only opinions and she is not the culprit.
Have a photograph of my Father and Uncle( who worked in Japan from 1960 in shipping and spoke fluent Japanese) in a bar in Yokohama in 1968 and having looked at at Japanese shipyards, they realised British heavy industry was finished, coal, steel, shipbuilding, heavy mechanical and electrical engineering.
How many Trade Union leaders were inspecting American factories in 1945, German factories in 1950 and Japanese factories in 1960 to assess the industrial competition?
Basically what happened to British Industry was a repeat of the Hungary defeat of England in 1953 when they won 6-3.
This had created a climate of complacency; the English Football Association (FA) simply assumed that as the originators of the game, English players were technically and physically superior to their foreign counterparts. In addition, coaching and tactical advances from abroad were ignored, with the England national side and the majority of clubs persisting with the outdated WM formation.
If there is no industry, there are subs, which is what the shop stewards of the un an semi skilled unions did not realise.
Have a photograph of my Father and Uncle( who worked in Japan from 1960 in shipping and spoke fluent Japanese) in a bar in Yokohama in 1968 and having looked at at Japanese shipyards, they realised British heavy industry was finished, coal, steel, shipbuilding, heavy mechanical and electrical engineering.
How many Trade Union leaders were inspecting American factories in 1945, German factories in 1950 and Japanese factories in 1960 to assess the industrial competition?
Basically what happened to British Industry was a repeat of the Hungary defeat of England in 1953 when they won 6-3.
This had created a climate of complacency; the English Football Association (FA) simply assumed that as the originators of the game, English players were technically and physically superior to their foreign counterparts. In addition, coaching and tactical advances from abroad were ignored, with the England national side and the majority of clubs persisting with the outdated WM formation.
If there is no industry, there are subs, which is what the shop stewards of the un an semi skilled unions did not realise.
Brilliant. In fact Labour of 1945 to 1951 due to Jay, Wilson, Gaitskill and the un and semi skilled unions which changed British Industry such that is was incapable of responding to new technologies, internation events ( closure of Suez Canal in 1967) and newly industrialised countries ( Japan ), quickly enough.
Darwin said it is the species which most quickly respond to new environments which have the evolutionary advantage.
Your points outclass Pip’s blinded analysis of the decline of British heavy industry. You’re spot on regarding the mindless nationalisation, combined with the apparent poor levels of industrial management and working attitudes after ww2, and then there’s the trade unions part in all this, crippling industries for the sake of the workers, which just backfired on them, and creating the s***holes which they were forced to grow up and wallow in. Thatcher, as you rightly say, cleared up and put theUK back on a reasonable path to a viable economy. All those victims in the industrial regions have a right to their opinions on her, but they’re only opinions and she is not the culprit.
Brilliant. In fact Labour of 1945 to 1951 due to Jay, Wilson, Gaitskill and the un and semi skilled unions which changed British Industry such that is was incapable of responding to new technologies, internation events ( closure of Suez Canal in 1967) and newly industrialised countries ( Japan ), quickly enough.
Darwin said it is the species which most quickly respond to new environments which have the evolutionary advantage.
Robb Maclean
1 year ago
I think the lady you should blame for the ‘woes’ of which you speak is Barbara Castle.
Labour closed more mines than the Tories.
Labour nationalised the shipyards in the disastrous Labour government of Harold Wilson in 1966.
Ship-building in the UK became a joke, utterly outclassed by the Japanese and latterly the Korean yards.
The quality control in British yards was and is abysmal. No pride in their work, slapdash ‘it will do’ attitude prevailed and still prevails. Look only to the disaster that is the ferry contract to build two ferries by Fergusons for the Scottish ‘Government’, 6 years late and 5 times over budget, rusting on the stocks and afloat.
The Glen Sannox might be pressed into service, it is doubtful Hull 802 will even be launched.
Then British Steel, nationalised in 1966 in the ‘White Heat of Technology’, losing £1m per minute in 1979.
Ravenscraig, shut down on the orders of the EEC to allow a failing Dutch steelworks to survive.
There is more, much more.
Don’t blame Margaret Thatcher, she merely cleared out the Augean stables level of a mess of British industry created by the Labour Goverments of the 60s and 70s.
Dominic A
1 year ago
My Scottish family were all in textiles – the once thriving industry (along with N. England, they ‘clothed the World’) folded long before Thatcher was even an MP. Not a single job remained for them. They are all thriving now though, all moved to places in the UK, US and Auz, where they and their families could have a good life. It’s globalisation, modernisation that is at the heart of it; and complaints about these forces are tempered by the facts that they are also behind the greatest poverty reduction in history, and healthy interdependency between nations.
Lack of opportunity creates winners and losers. I think what this book asks is, when a supposedly modern day developed nation is dealing with such huge challenges, might there be better ways?
Go where the opportunities are, make your own opportunities, if not for yourself, for your children. A modern developed nation is primarily one that allows for this, and whose government facilitates this by being a good rulemaker/referee/enforcer; and is aware of the limitations and pitfalls of trying to centrally control the economy (contrast with authoritarian or dysfunctional states). Under the former (as opposed to those living in an authoritarian or dysfunctional state – North Korea or Haiti) , it is cruel and dysfunctional to claim or believe that government is responsible for your suffering. That way of thinking is mere psychological game playing – that creates a poverty trap and a depression trap.
Go where the opportunities are, make your own opportunities, if not for yourself, for your children. A modern developed nation is primarily one that allows for this, and whose government facilitates this by being a good rulemaker/referee/enforcer; and is aware of the limitations and pitfalls of trying to centrally control the economy (contrast with authoritarian or dysfunctional states). Under the former (as opposed to those living in an authoritarian or dysfunctional state – North Korea or Haiti) , it is cruel and dysfunctional to claim or believe that government is responsible for your suffering. That way of thinking is mere psychological game playing – that creates a poverty trap and a depression trap.
Lack of opportunity creates winners and losers. I think what this book asks is, when a supposedly modern day developed nation is dealing with such huge challenges, might there be better ways?
Dominic A
1 year ago
My Scottish family were all in textiles – the once thriving industry (along with N. England, they ‘clothed the World’) folded long before Thatcher was even an MP. Not a single job remained for them. They are all thriving now though, all moved to places in the UK, US and Auz, where they and their families could have a good life. It’s globalisation, modernisation that is at the heart of it; and complaints about these forces are tempered by the facts that they are also behind the greatest poverty reduction in history, and healthy interdependency between nations.
Peter Shaw
11 months ago
I’m from a council estate. My father unemployed for many years. He volunteered for the British army in WW2 and was left on the scrap heap. We were no friends of Maggie Thatcher, I can assure you..
But why would I celebrate her death ? The Labour Party is full of traitors to the working class. Many trade union leaders are traitors to the working class.
And the main reason these places are so awful with high crime ? Drugs .
Drugs have destroyed working class communities in the UK and the US and many other countries.
The understandable anger should not be directed at a dead and buried former PM.
Save it for the people who hijacked and ruined the Labour Party and continue to do so. Save it for the drug dealers, the inept PC police, the upper class ‘ class warriors ‘ and ‘ eco protesters’ who don’t give a toss about the real working class.
Save it for the main stream media that never report any of the real reasons for the western decline.
Peter Shaw
11 months ago
I’m from a council estate. My father unemployed for many years. He volunteered for the British army in WW2 and was left on the scrap heap. We were no friends of Maggie Thatcher, I can assure you..
But why would I celebrate her death ? The Labour Party is full of traitors to the working class. Many trade union leaders are traitors to the working class.
And the main reason these places are so awful with high crime ? Drugs .
Drugs have destroyed working class communities in the UK and the US and many other countries.
The understandable anger should not be directed at a dead and buried former PM.
Save it for the people who hijacked and ruined the Labour Party and continue to do so. Save it for the drug dealers, the inept PC police, the upper class ‘ class warriors ‘ and ‘ eco protesters’ who don’t give a toss about the real working class.
Save it for the main stream media that never report any of the real reasons for the western decline.
Nick Faulks
11 months ago
How is it Mrs Thatcher’s fault that the police in Durham decided some years ago that investigating crime, let alone preventing it, was no longer on the list of things they could be bothered to do?
Nick Faulks
11 months ago
How is it Mrs Thatcher’s fault that the police in Durham decided some years ago that investigating crime, let alone preventing it, was no longer on the list of things they could be bothered to do?
Gordon Arta
11 months ago
The unions killed British shipbuilding, as they did for much of the UK’s heavy industry. There were more than 24 shipbuilding unions in 1977, including 5 metalworking unions (a ‘screw, nut, bolt, and rivet union’ being one). Their confederation spent most of its time dealing with demarcation disputes, with each union jealously guarding its own powerbase, and striking at the merest hint that a member of another union had switched on a light, or tightened a bolt. Contracts went elsewhere. Who’d a thunk it?
Gordon Arta
11 months ago
The unions killed British shipbuilding, as they did for much of the UK’s heavy industry. There were more than 24 shipbuilding unions in 1977, including 5 metalworking unions (a ‘screw, nut, bolt, and rivet union’ being one). Their confederation spent most of its time dealing with demarcation disputes, with each union jealously guarding its own powerbase, and striking at the merest hint that a member of another union had switched on a light, or tightened a bolt. Contracts went elsewhere. Who’d a thunk it?
Steven Carr
1 year ago
‘From a once caring and united community-driven society to the fractured and divided, ‘
United? We celebrate diversity today! The old trades union slogan ‘Unity is strength’ is now ‘Diversity is strength’.
‘Community-driven’? We have lots of communities in Britain today. Choose which one you belong to – from the gay community to the Albanian community. Pick a side.
Steven Carr
1 year ago
‘From a once caring and united community-driven society to the fractured and divided, ‘
United? We celebrate diversity today! The old trades union slogan ‘Unity is strength’ is now ‘Diversity is strength’.
‘Community-driven’? We have lots of communities in Britain today. Choose which one you belong to – from the gay community to the Albanian community. Pick a side.
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Well I lived in a carboard box in the middle of the road and had to get up to go to work before I went to bed
Cardboard box?? A palace! I lived in a matchbox with my 67 brothers in the middle of the A1 and we were run over by lorries seventeen times every morning. And it snowed even in August. But we were happy.
Cardboard box?? A palace! I lived in a matchbox with my 67 brothers in the middle of the A1 and we were run over by lorries seventeen times every morning. And it snowed even in August. But we were happy.
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Well I lived in a carboard box in the middle of the road and had to get up to go to work before I went to bed
Jasmine Birtles
1 year ago
It really sounds like the local police are in the pockets of the mob. That is one big issue that must – and could – be dealt with now. If law and order were brought back to the area it would help everything else.
Jasmine Birtles
1 year ago
It really sounds like the local police are in the pockets of the mob. That is one big issue that must – and could – be dealt with now. If law and order were brought back to the area it would help everything else.
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago
Ram raider smashes up shop (2023). I blame Thatcher (retired 1990)
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago
Ram raider smashes up shop (2023). I blame Thatcher (retired 1990)
David Bullard
1 year ago
What a wonderful piece of writing. A real ‘feel good’ piece. It makes me feel good not to live in Durham.
David – I have no doubt that some of what he says is true, but on the other hand even in Horden, almost certainly the East Durham village/small town with the worst reputation of all, due to several parallel long and garden-less streets which really are in a bad state, the houses and gardens in the rest of the town (possibly a larger number than in the somewhat scary “numbered streets”) are surprisingly beautifully kept. To me, a newcomer to the area in the previous decade, ex-mining County Durham, even the more depressing parts, has a lot going for it. Several of the more run-down villages are in beautiful coastal locations. The people, young and old, are generally friendly and will acknowledge you as they pass you in the street almost as much as in much more remote areas of the UK. Recorded vehicle crime, while higher than in some more remote rural areas, is a fraction of what it is in places like Manchester. The larger towns locally, such as Hartlepool, Stockton, Middlesbrough, and parts of Tyneside, are rather scarier and more difficult to redeem, in my opinion.
Nicely put, but the City of Durham – an absolute glory with it’s cathedral, castle, university and greenery – must be distinguished for those who aren’t familiar with the north east with the County of Durham; something the writer also fails to do.
The Beamish Museum – a former pit village transformed into a living museum of yesterday – is also worth a visit.
I think there is some confusion here between, Durham, Durham City and County Durham. Some of these no-go hell holes of deprivation are 25 miles from Durham but are in Durham, East Durham. I’ve just read the article again and the confusion doesn’t come from there but from people who have only been on a disappointing fly through poverty safari probably in the more affluent areas of the city. Just to be clear. There are not thousands of heroin addicts living in Durham Cathedral
Don’t you understand? Nothing is Pip’s fault. It’s always someone else’s fault or the system’s. Surprised he didn’t blame the misunderstanding on Thatcher.
Don’t you understand? Nothing is Pip’s fault. It’s always someone else’s fault or the system’s. Surprised he didn’t blame the misunderstanding on Thatcher.
I think there is some confusion here between, Durham, Durham City and County Durham. Some of these no-go hell holes of deprivation are 25 miles from Durham but are in Durham, East Durham. I’ve just read the article again and the confusion doesn’t come from there but from people who have only been on a disappointing fly through poverty safari probably in the more affluent areas of the city. Just to be clear. There are not thousands of heroin addicts living in Durham Cathedral
David – I have no doubt that some of what he says is true, but on the other hand even in Horden, almost certainly the East Durham village/small town with the worst reputation of all, due to several parallel long and garden-less streets which really are in a bad state, the houses and gardens in the rest of the town (possibly a larger number than in the somewhat scary “numbered streets”) are surprisingly beautifully kept. To me, a newcomer to the area in the previous decade, ex-mining County Durham, even the more depressing parts, has a lot going for it. Several of the more run-down villages are in beautiful coastal locations. The people, young and old, are generally friendly and will acknowledge you as they pass you in the street almost as much as in much more remote areas of the UK. Recorded vehicle crime, while higher than in some more remote rural areas, is a fraction of what it is in places like Manchester. The larger towns locally, such as Hartlepool, Stockton, Middlesbrough, and parts of Tyneside, are rather scarier and more difficult to redeem, in my opinion.
Nicely put, but the City of Durham – an absolute glory with it’s cathedral, castle, university and greenery – must be distinguished for those who aren’t familiar with the north east with the County of Durham; something the writer also fails to do.
The Beamish Museum – a former pit village transformed into a living museum of yesterday – is also worth a visit.
Clever propaganda to keep everybody out and keep house prices low for us locals. The North-East offers the best quality of life in the entire country.
David Bullard
1 year ago
What a wonderful piece of writing. A real ‘feel good’ piece. It makes me feel good not to live in Durham.
Jacqueline Burns
1 year ago
The only person to blame for his lack of basic literacy education is himself. Did he go to the teacher & ask for extra lessons after school or did he just play along with his mates? I bet any teacher at his school would have jumped at the chance to truly help someone. At that time they still had a vocation to teach children to read, write & do arithmetic rather than the hodge podge of topics that pass for lessons today.
The men did metalwork. The women did domestic science. Pitmen and pitmen wives.
Jacqueline Burns
1 year ago
The only person to blame for his lack of basic literacy education is himself. Did he go to the teacher & ask for extra lessons after school or did he just play along with his mates? I bet any teacher at his school would have jumped at the chance to truly help someone. At that time they still had a vocation to teach children to read, write & do arithmetic rather than the hodge podge of topics that pass for lessons today.
rob drummond
11 months ago
As i read each consecutive paragraph I kept thinking to myself:
what?
eh?
really?
OMG!
(repeat)
The author has experienced all these horrendous acts of violence, societal breakdown and neglect, I never thought I would hear. All within such a potentially ‘Idyllic’ part of the Country. I am truely shocked.
Life down t’Pit
However, its not true to say ”men should have been allowed to continually follow their fathers down ‘Pit’‘ (paraphrasing). Its vile, filthy, unhealthy work that cut his forefathers lives short by 20/30 years. Harold Wilson shut more pits than Thatcher. BG – BT – BA – BL (rememebr that lot?) and the rest:
Its very easy to forget the massive drain on the public purse these lame duck industries were. At least now most are delivering tax to UK PLC by way of Corporation tax.
Eg: BT had around 250,000 employees, and yet we had to wait 2 years for a phone (yes really!)
A Japanise car import had CARPETS and RADIO as standard! Not a BL car – Plus whilst BL were not on strike they were building fourth rate/unreliable/cars that rusted within 3 years, no-one wanted that rubbish. Royal Mail:
Frankly this company is a complete joke and deserves to go out of business. ‘Signed for next day delivery‘ took 1 week for somehting I sent just this week. You claim is was sold for a fraction of its worth – its worth nothing in reality. Its business model has been overtaken by modernety. Sympathy?
Your ‘‘Coming out in sympathy” was actually called ‘Secondary Strike Action’ and was the death knell to business unrelated to the strike – so yes, it was rightly banned. Strikers this year:
Your list of strikers within the last 6/9 months is correct, however they all have one theme running through them – that is they are all tax-payer funded jobs.
Think about that.
You have not mentioend a strike (say) at Nissan or Toyota or Rolls Royce, as these companies are not shileded by the Tax-Payer but are at the mercy of their customers. In General:
Your article is quite shocking, of that there is no doubt. The good people of the north East (and other areas) were severaly let down. It seems they still are being let down.
Neither you nor anyone else can seriously expect mines to be re-opened and therefore mine-workers lives cut short once more by decades.
Its not Thatchers fault CHINA can produce Steel at a quarter of the price of UK Steel – but I understand why you think its ”all her fault” – The West collectively (stop being a ‘little Briton’ in all this) outsorced much of its manufacturing trade to China – for £2.50 per hour and not £10 an hour. Thats not Thatchers fault.
rob drummond
11 months ago
As i read each consecutive paragraph I kept thinking to myself:
what?
eh?
really?
OMG!
(repeat)
The author has experienced all these horrendous acts of violence, societal breakdown and neglect, I never thought I would hear. All within such a potentially ‘Idyllic’ part of the Country. I am truely shocked.
Life down t’Pit
However, its not true to say ”men should have been allowed to continually follow their fathers down ‘Pit’‘ (paraphrasing). Its vile, filthy, unhealthy work that cut his forefathers lives short by 20/30 years. Harold Wilson shut more pits than Thatcher. BG – BT – BA – BL (rememebr that lot?) and the rest:
Its very easy to forget the massive drain on the public purse these lame duck industries were. At least now most are delivering tax to UK PLC by way of Corporation tax.
Eg: BT had around 250,000 employees, and yet we had to wait 2 years for a phone (yes really!)
A Japanise car import had CARPETS and RADIO as standard! Not a BL car – Plus whilst BL were not on strike they were building fourth rate/unreliable/cars that rusted within 3 years, no-one wanted that rubbish. Royal Mail:
Frankly this company is a complete joke and deserves to go out of business. ‘Signed for next day delivery‘ took 1 week for somehting I sent just this week. You claim is was sold for a fraction of its worth – its worth nothing in reality. Its business model has been overtaken by modernety. Sympathy?
Your ‘‘Coming out in sympathy” was actually called ‘Secondary Strike Action’ and was the death knell to business unrelated to the strike – so yes, it was rightly banned. Strikers this year:
Your list of strikers within the last 6/9 months is correct, however they all have one theme running through them – that is they are all tax-payer funded jobs.
Think about that.
You have not mentioend a strike (say) at Nissan or Toyota or Rolls Royce, as these companies are not shileded by the Tax-Payer but are at the mercy of their customers. In General:
Your article is quite shocking, of that there is no doubt. The good people of the north East (and other areas) were severaly let down. It seems they still are being let down.
Neither you nor anyone else can seriously expect mines to be re-opened and therefore mine-workers lives cut short once more by decades.
Its not Thatchers fault CHINA can produce Steel at a quarter of the price of UK Steel – but I understand why you think its ”all her fault” – The West collectively (stop being a ‘little Briton’ in all this) outsorced much of its manufacturing trade to China – for £2.50 per hour and not £10 an hour. Thats not Thatchers fault.
J Boyd
11 months ago
I’ve spent a lot of time in the North East recently and completely recognise the picture the writer paints.
However, blaming Thatcher misses the point: more pits closed under Harold Wilson than during Thatcher’s term of office and the industry, like steel and shipbuilding were in decline throughout the latter half of the last century.
The failure, and it was as much the fault of Blair/Brown and successive governments as of Thatcher, was to find a new economic purpose for the area as heavy industry disappeared.
And the appalling withdrawal of the Police has been a Twenty-First Century phenomenon for which the Home Office bureaucracy is culpable.
The tragedy has been compounded by the downfall of Boris Johnson: the ‘leveling up’ vision should have seen places like Durham helped to re-establish their jobs markets and claim a fair share of the nation’s prosperity; but Johnson was denied the opportunity to deliver on the promise by Covid, and by the witch hunt that brought him down.
The people of Durham deserve much better, but I’m afraid Labour is too stuck in the past to deliver it.
J Boyd
11 months ago
I’ve spent a lot of time in the North East recently and completely recognise the picture the writer paints.
However, blaming Thatcher misses the point: more pits closed under Harold Wilson than during Thatcher’s term of office and the industry, like steel and shipbuilding were in decline throughout the latter half of the last century.
The failure, and it was as much the fault of Blair/Brown and successive governments as of Thatcher, was to find a new economic purpose for the area as heavy industry disappeared.
And the appalling withdrawal of the Police has been a Twenty-First Century phenomenon for which the Home Office bureaucracy is culpable.
The tragedy has been compounded by the downfall of Boris Johnson: the ‘leveling up’ vision should have seen places like Durham helped to re-establish their jobs markets and claim a fair share of the nation’s prosperity; but Johnson was denied the opportunity to deliver on the promise by Covid, and by the witch hunt that brought him down.
The people of Durham deserve much better, but I’m afraid Labour is too stuck in the past to deliver it.
Arthur G
11 months ago
If the UK elites would drop their insane net zero fantasy, and frack the ocean of natural gas the UK sits on, there would be millions of jobs for the displaced workers in the North. Jobs directly in gas extraction (not too fa from the pits in spirit). Jobs in industries enabled by cheap energy let petro-chemicals, smelting, steel. Jobs supplying all the equipment and building the infrastructure needed.
Even better, if you export your gas surplus to China and India and Africa to replace coal and wood fuels, you’ll massively improve the economy. Replacing coal with gas is far better for the environment than replacing gas with unreliable renewable. The US reduced its carbon emissions 19% by switching from coal to gas.
Arthur G
11 months ago
If the UK elites would drop their insane net zero fantasy, and frack the ocean of natural gas the UK sits on, there would be millions of jobs for the displaced workers in the North. Jobs directly in gas extraction (not too fa from the pits in spirit). Jobs in industries enabled by cheap energy let petro-chemicals, smelting, steel. Jobs supplying all the equipment and building the infrastructure needed.
Even better, if you export your gas surplus to China and India and Africa to replace coal and wood fuels, you’ll massively improve the economy. Replacing coal with gas is far better for the environment than replacing gas with unreliable renewable. The US reduced its carbon emissions 19% by switching from coal to gas.
Martin Smith
1 year ago
At least no one is accusing the writer of ‘coming back here with your fancy southern ways’. Working class solidarity of old had more than a little bit of inverted snobbery at its core.
There’s a full chapter dedicated to that very point.
Martin Smith
1 year ago
At least no one is accusing the writer of ‘coming back here with your fancy southern ways’. Working class solidarity of old had more than a little bit of inverted snobbery at its core.
Last edited 1 year ago by Martin Smith
Steven Carr
1 year ago
Where were you when coal mines were being closed?
Were you out there demanding that CO2 emissions continue and that Britain continues to burn coal?
Careful not to relate/confuse the decision to shut Britains heavy industries with environmental issues. This is not why it was done!
Steven Carr
1 year ago
Where were you when coal mines were being closed?
Were you out there demanding that CO2 emissions continue and that Britain continues to burn coal?
Jake Prior
11 months ago
Sad to hear about problems you describe. I’m in a small provincial Spanish city by chance and I have to say, even though Spain is theoretically poorer than us, we clearly do deprivation in a way they couldn’t imagine. The weather certainly helps. But I stopped at the description of royal mail bein “snapped up by wealthy investors for a fraction of it’s real value” Had the author bothered to look at the performance of the royal mail share price? It’s currently 50% down on the floatation value unless I’m getting something wrong. Errors like this leave dispassionate readers rolling their eyes and wondering which of the author’s shoulders is most chiselled. A serious issue that deserves better treatment than this. Despite that, glad Unheard is at least approaching the topic.
Jake Prior
11 months ago
Sad to hear about problems you describe. I’m in a small provincial Spanish city by chance and I have to say, even though Spain is theoretically poorer than us, we clearly do deprivation in a way they couldn’t imagine. The weather certainly helps. But I stopped at the description of royal mail bein “snapped up by wealthy investors for a fraction of it’s real value” Had the author bothered to look at the performance of the royal mail share price? It’s currently 50% down on the floatation value unless I’m getting something wrong. Errors like this leave dispassionate readers rolling their eyes and wondering which of the author’s shoulders is most chiselled. A serious issue that deserves better treatment than this. Despite that, glad Unheard is at least approaching the topic.
John Murray
1 year ago
A massively hysterical piece for sure but it does contain a kernel of truth, that we are now living with the mistakes of Thatcherism.
Privatisation, sold as allowing essential services to be delivered more efficiently and costing the consumer less has led to a situation where key assets like water and energy are owned largely by foreign owners who extract the value and send it overseas in the form of dividends, while failing to invest in the infrastructure. The conscious decision to cripple manufacturing, using high interest rates and a strong pound, and betting the farm on a service economy, particularly financial services so we no longer make or produce remotely enough of what we consume, leaving us with a permanent balance of payments deficit.
The sale of council housing without developing something to replace it, leading to Generation Rent. Regional inequality, the highest in Europe. A low wage, low skill economy.
Ironically, probably her single biggest achievement was ensuring the Single Market was designed to work to Britain’s benefit, and that’s been thrown away by her successors, again with nothing to replace it.
The Tory Party is now reaping the whirlwind as they have lost a majority of younger voters partly as a result of these policies becoming fixed in their thinking.
You don’t seem to know much about the water industry. The water companies are, in effect, contractors to OfWat. The regulator determines how much the water companies can charge, how much they invest, what their profit margins are, what their targets are for reducing leaks and so on. Southern Water, to give just one example, hasn’t paid a dividend since 2017.
I agree with you about council housing: councils should have been able to use the money from their sales to build more houses.
The Single Market would have been very useful to Britain had it included services but, of course, the EU made sure it never did. The Single Market in goods was of very limited benefit to the UK, just as it has been of very limited benefit to Italy (zero cumulative economic growth since 1999). That’s because trade deals in general are of modest economic benefit. Their real importance is geo-political.
You are also right about crippling industry, but that is today’s Conservatives, not Mrs T, who single-handedly brought the Japanese car manufacturers to the UK (including to the NE of course). And it’s the ludicrous energy policies initiated by the lunatic Climate Change Act of 2008 (thank you Ed Miliband) that are mostly to blame. You can’t have successful manufacturing with high energy costs.
Seriously? Water Companies are estimated to have paid out £72bn in dividends since privatisation while prices have jumped 40%. OfWat are just the regulator, they don’t own the companies! And OfWat recently said that “poor performance has become the norm, this can’t go on”. The public have noticed, because they are being asked to swim in their own excrement in our rivers and off our beaches. The reason foreign investors have bought our industry is because they’ve seen it’s licence to print money.
Off course the Single Market included services! It’s why so many companies have opened European branches or relocated, including Jacob Rees-Mogg’s Somerset Capital. As to goods, you should maybe ask all of the exporters being crippled by the non-tariff regulations, or ask why the government has put off bringing in the import controls we signed up to.
The Japanese car manufacturers came because of the Single Market, not some infatuation with Thatcher.
You need to stop making things up because they suit you and look dispassionately at the facts.
Seriously? Water Companies are estimated to have paid out £72bn in dividends since privatisation while prices have jumped 40%. OfWat are just the regulator, they don’t own the companies! And OfWat recently said that “poor performance has become the norm, this can’t go on”. The public have noticed, because they are being asked to swim in their own excrement in our rivers and off our beaches. The reason foreign investors have bought our industry is because they’ve seen it’s licence to print money.
Off course the Single Market included services! It’s why so many companies have opened European branches or relocated, including Jacob Rees-Mogg’s Somerset Capital. As to goods, you should maybe ask all of the exporters being crippled by the non-tariff regulations, or ask why the government has put off bringing in the import controls we signed up to.
The Japanese car manufacturers came because of the Single Market, not some infatuation with Thatcher.
You need to stop making things up because they suit you and look dispassionately at the facts.
You don’t seem to know much about the water industry. The water companies are, in effect, contractors to OfWat. The regulator determines how much the water companies can charge, how much they invest, what their profit margins are, what their targets are for reducing leaks and so on. Southern Water, to give just one example, hasn’t paid a dividend since 2017.
I agree with you about council housing: councils should have been able to use the money from their sales to build more houses.
The Single Market would have been very useful to Britain had it included services but, of course, the EU made sure it never did. The Single Market in goods was of very limited benefit to the UK, just as it has been of very limited benefit to Italy (zero cumulative economic growth since 1999). That’s because trade deals in general are of modest economic benefit. Their real importance is geo-political.
You are also right about crippling industry, but that is today’s Conservatives, not Mrs T, who single-handedly brought the Japanese car manufacturers to the UK (including to the NE of course). And it’s the ludicrous energy policies initiated by the lunatic Climate Change Act of 2008 (thank you Ed Miliband) that are mostly to blame. You can’t have successful manufacturing with high energy costs.
A massively hysterical piece for sure but it does contain a kernel of truth, that we are now living with the mistakes of Thatcherism.
Privatisation, sold as allowing essential services to be delivered more efficiently and costing the consumer less has led to a situation where key assets like water and energy are owned largely by foreign owners who extract the value and send it overseas in the form of dividends, while failing to invest in the infrastructure. The conscious decision to cripple manufacturing, using high interest rates and a strong pound, and betting the farm on a service economy, particularly financial services so we no longer make or produce remotely enough of what we consume, leaving us with a permanent balance of payments deficit.
The sale of council housing without developing something to replace it, leading to Generation Rent. Regional inequality, the highest in Europe. A low wage, low skill economy.
Ironically, probably her single biggest achievement was ensuring the Single Market was designed to work to Britain’s benefit, and that’s been thrown away by her successors, again with nothing to replace it.
The Tory Party is now reaping the whirlwind as they have lost a majority of younger voters partly as a result of these policies becoming fixed in their thinking.
Pete Marsh
11 months ago
Peak coal production in the UK was in 1909. Those collieries were always going to close by the end of the 20th century, although historically more were closed under Labour than the Tories.
I went to a comp in the South Yorks coalfield area in the 1970s. There were no barriers to literacy (I went on to uni and got 2 degrees for example).
Last edited 11 months ago by Pete Marsh
Pete Marsh
11 months ago
Peak coal production in the UK was in 1909. Those collieries were always going to close by the end of the 20th century, although historically more were closed under Labour than the Tories.
I went to a comp in the South Yorks coalfield area in the 1970s. There were no barriers to literacy (I went on to uni and got 2 degrees for example).
Last edited 11 months ago by Pete Marsh
Charles Hedges
11 months ago
Changes in technology are ignored. Fire arms replaced longbows. Archers could earn 6/day or about £180,000 year in todays money. Canals replaced packhorses, which were replaed by railways. Steam power replaced horse power.Telegraphs speeded up comunication. Steam boats replaced sail and wood in ships. Cars replaced railways in part. Gas turbines replaced steam engines. Oil replaced coal in ships leading to reduction in demand. Jets replaced piston engines and steel replaced wood in aeroplanes. The closure of the Suez Canal led ships to increase from 50K to 500K T.This reduced cost of transport of coal, iron ore and all bulk goods. The massive open cast coal mines as compared to deep coal mines of Britain meant we produced coal at £42/T and the world price was £32/T and by the 1980s. 75% of mines were uneconomic and nationalised companies had massive debts partly due to overmanning of un and semi-skilled staff. The strikes of the 1960s did much to make British heavy industry uneconomic and ship building and cars moved to Japan and S korea.
When G Stephenson started locomotice production there were not enough people with the skill to work to such precision and accuracy so he had to train them up.By the the end of the 19th century metal was cut to a precision of 1/1000 inch. Now silicon chips are made to the precision of a 100 atoms and robot arms have to move to an accuracy 4/10000 of an inch.
Technology is a Darwinian test of selection and as distance and time are reduced, peoples skills need to increase to make more intricate items.As late as the 1980s, people could leave school on a Friday and enter unskilled work on Monday and considered education irrelevant to employment.
Charles Hedges
11 months ago
Changes in technology are ignored. Fire arms replaced longbows. Archers could earn 6/day or about £180,000 year in todays money. Canals replaced packhorses, which were replaed by railways. Steam power replaced horse power.Telegraphs speeded up comunication. Steam boats replaced sail and wood in ships. Cars replaced railways in part. Gas turbines replaced steam engines. Oil replaced coal in ships leading to reduction in demand. Jets replaced piston engines and steel replaced wood in aeroplanes. The closure of the Suez Canal led ships to increase from 50K to 500K T.This reduced cost of transport of coal, iron ore and all bulk goods. The massive open cast coal mines as compared to deep coal mines of Britain meant we produced coal at £42/T and the world price was £32/T and by the 1980s. 75% of mines were uneconomic and nationalised companies had massive debts partly due to overmanning of un and semi-skilled staff. The strikes of the 1960s did much to make British heavy industry uneconomic and ship building and cars moved to Japan and S korea.
When G Stephenson started locomotice production there were not enough people with the skill to work to such precision and accuracy so he had to train them up.By the the end of the 19th century metal was cut to a precision of 1/1000 inch. Now silicon chips are made to the precision of a 100 atoms and robot arms have to move to an accuracy 4/10000 of an inch.
Technology is a Darwinian test of selection and as distance and time are reduced, peoples skills need to increase to make more intricate items.As late as the 1980s, people could leave school on a Friday and enter unskilled work on Monday and considered education irrelevant to employment.
Tom Scott
11 months ago
I lived through the years before and during this period, which had a broader range of realities than those discussed here.
Yes, coal mines were extensive, which went to help make steel in the region, which was then used to make the biggest ships in the world for many years.
We lost shipbuilding to countries such as Poland where they cost a fraction of those we built, mainly due to manpower costs and poor management.
I went to a secondary school (didn’t make it to Grammar School) yet left with pretty good English and pretty good maths. This helped me go on the higher things I chose to do and worked hard to achieve.
I worked in one if the nationised industries, all of which were full of waste and inefficiency.
Thatcher set out to address all of this, of which the coal industry was only one example.
You would need to have lived through the decades before this to grasp the extent of which unions laid waste to parts of the country.
Tom Scott
11 months ago
I lived through the years before and during this period, which had a broader range of realities than those discussed here.
Yes, coal mines were extensive, which went to help make steel in the region, which was then used to make the biggest ships in the world for many years.
We lost shipbuilding to countries such as Poland where they cost a fraction of those we built, mainly due to manpower costs and poor management.
I went to a secondary school (didn’t make it to Grammar School) yet left with pretty good English and pretty good maths. This helped me go on the higher things I chose to do and worked hard to achieve.
I worked in one if the nationised industries, all of which were full of waste and inefficiency.
Thatcher set out to address all of this, of which the coal industry was only one example.
You would need to have lived through the decades before this to grasp the extent of which unions laid waste to parts of the country.
Caradog Wiliams
1 year ago
The views today are as black and white as they can be. People feel the need to justify their views by attaching a potted biography. Please allow me to do so.
I was born in a town in N England and left at 17. My father was a shop-steward in a car factory and he wanted me to follow him. I left because I wanted more. Now all of the industry has gone and the town is a wreck. Perhaps I was lucky but ambition played a big part in my life and this ambition came from within. Since then I reached the peak of Production Manager in various factories. These factories have now all closed. I must have done a bad job. Most of the time I was fighting the unions. With hindsight the unions were almost always right. The owners just wanted to grab more for themselves.
Looking back, the problems started when we joined the EU. The idea was that our markets would be bigger but Germany was always better situated to take advantage of the markets. Around this time came the big split between SE England and the rest. Today the scale of the difference is almost an obscenity. This is why Liverpool fans booed the national anthem, why people in Wales were afraid to put out bunting because they would have been ‘egged’, why towns and cities like Rotherham and Durham are in this sorry state, why jokers in the SNP get votes. There may be areas in the SE which are bad but these are the exception rather than the rule.
The people in the SE make the rules and live relatively well. They have brilliant transport systems which they complain about incessantly. They have picturesque green areas and justify this by telling how their ambition and work ethic has been their ‘raison d’etre’. They are leading us down the path towards a ‘green’ world when they will be fine because of public transport – elsewhere else there will be disaster. Who cares, though?
I would suggest that in the future, posters on UnHerd should say (roughly) where they live. Most of the ‘stop moaning’ comments will come from SE England.
Just out of interest, for 20 years Wales has had some control over its own environment and lifestyle. That control has always been with Labour. Wales is very poor, there aren’t many jobs, there is one roughish area BUT the scale of crime and devastation is nowhere near that of N.England. The English taxpayer has helped in a big way but the same is true for the people in N.England – also part of the Barnet formula. Every year 10 million English tourists visit Wales and many own second homes and fixed caravans in Wales.
I’ll take up your eloquently-expressed offer, Caradog Williams / Chris Wheatley.
I was born in a council house in a north-western mill town, just as the mills were closing so not unlike the author’s experience. My father worked in a tannery (which closed), my mother a shop worker. I could read by the time i got to infant school. I moved away to university but later returned, and the town is now starting to prosper again. I know of the type of poverty he’s trying to portray, but also about attitudes to adversity. The author’s attitude is ultimately self-defeating.
Self defeating indeed, I’ve had thousands of reviews from people who have actually read the book and that’s the first time I’ve heard that fraise. The book isn’t even about me. Never judge a book by……….
Self defeating indeed, I’ve had thousands of reviews from people who have actually read the book and that’s the first time I’ve heard that fraise. The book isn’t even about me. Never judge a book by……….
I think if you bother to read most of the comments the majority actually come from north of the Watford Gap. Many from County Durham and others from places like Stoke and Coventry. For the record I don’t come from the UK at all.
Northern England is NOT a recipient of the Barnett Formula which explicitly deals with National Funding for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland uplifted from what is spent in England as a whole.
I’ll take up your eloquently-expressed offer, Caradog Williams / Chris Wheatley.
I was born in a council house in a north-western mill town, just as the mills were closing so not unlike the author’s experience. My father worked in a tannery (which closed), my mother a shop worker. I could read by the time i got to infant school. I moved away to university but later returned, and the town is now starting to prosper again. I know of the type of poverty he’s trying to portray, but also about attitudes to adversity. The author’s attitude is ultimately self-defeating.
I think if you bother to read most of the comments the majority actually come from north of the Watford Gap. Many from County Durham and others from places like Stoke and Coventry. For the record I don’t come from the UK at all.
Northern England is NOT a recipient of the Barnett Formula which explicitly deals with National Funding for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland uplifted from what is spent in England as a whole.
Caradog Wiliams
1 year ago
The views today are as black and white as they can be. People feel the need to justify their views by attaching a potted biography. Please allow me to do so.
I was born in a town in N England and left at 17. My father was a shop-steward in a car factory and he wanted me to follow him. I left because I wanted more. Now all of the industry has gone and the town is a wreck. Perhaps I was lucky but ambition played a big part in my life and this ambition came from within. Since then I reached the peak of Production Manager in various factories. These factories have now all closed. I must have done a bad job. Most of the time I was fighting the unions. With hindsight the unions were almost always right. The owners just wanted to grab more for themselves.
Looking back, the problems started when we joined the EU. The idea was that our markets would be bigger but Germany was always better situated to take advantage of the markets. Around this time came the big split between SE England and the rest. Today the scale of the difference is almost an obscenity. This is why Liverpool fans booed the national anthem, why people in Wales were afraid to put out bunting because they would have been ‘egged’, why towns and cities like Rotherham and Durham are in this sorry state, why jokers in the SNP get votes. There may be areas in the SE which are bad but these are the exception rather than the rule.
The people in the SE make the rules and live relatively well. They have brilliant transport systems which they complain about incessantly. They have picturesque green areas and justify this by telling how their ambition and work ethic has been their ‘raison d’etre’. They are leading us down the path towards a ‘green’ world when they will be fine because of public transport – elsewhere else there will be disaster. Who cares, though?
I would suggest that in the future, posters on UnHerd should say (roughly) where they live. Most of the ‘stop moaning’ comments will come from SE England.
Just out of interest, for 20 years Wales has had some control over its own environment and lifestyle. That control has always been with Labour. Wales is very poor, there aren’t many jobs, there is one roughish area BUT the scale of crime and devastation is nowhere near that of N.England. The English taxpayer has helped in a big way but the same is true for the people in N.England – also part of the Barnet formula. Every year 10 million English tourists visit Wales and many own second homes and fixed caravans in Wales.
Last edited 1 year ago by Caradog Wiliams
Anthony Morris
1 year ago
The quote ahead of Tony Harrison’s V, a poem that is a cri de couer around the same era and issues, is from Arthur Scargill. Scargill claims his father read the dictionary every day as he said your life depends on how you master words. That still just holds I think although ChatGBT may ring the death knell on that particular wisdom. Mining communities might well have been advised that literacy wouldn’t matter but it was bad advice. The industries crumbled because other people in other parts of the world could make for less. They got wealthier and we got poorer and it continues on that slide. No single politician could cause it or could prevent it. The neglect of those communities left to rot shames governments and societies but the rot is spreading and will soon infest educated professionals and rueful homeowners until, bar a small coterie of moneyed technocrats, no one will notice the stench. So it goes unfortunately.
Anthony Morris
1 year ago
The quote ahead of Tony Harrison’s V, a poem that is a cri de couer around the same era and issues, is from Arthur Scargill. Scargill claims his father read the dictionary every day as he said your life depends on how you master words. That still just holds I think although ChatGBT may ring the death knell on that particular wisdom. Mining communities might well have been advised that literacy wouldn’t matter but it was bad advice. The industries crumbled because other people in other parts of the world could make for less. They got wealthier and we got poorer and it continues on that slide. No single politician could cause it or could prevent it. The neglect of those communities left to rot shames governments and societies but the rot is spreading and will soon infest educated professionals and rueful homeowners until, bar a small coterie of moneyed technocrats, no one will notice the stench. So it goes unfortunately.
Kirk Susong
1 year ago
I’m surprised this dumb essay made it past the editors. But then, if he’s only been literate for 20 years, this is the equivalent of a college freshman’s writing. I guess that explains it.
I’m surprised this dumb essay made it past the editors. But then, if he’s only been literate for 20 years, this is the equivalent of a college freshman’s writing. I guess that explains it.
Tony Buck
11 months ago
The question is – granted that things were terrible in Durham during the Thatcher Revolution (which was inevitable, but horrible), why haven’t they improved since ?
And for that, the whole country is at fault, not Mrs Thatcher.
Tony Buck
11 months ago
The question is – granted that things were terrible in Durham during the Thatcher Revolution (which was inevitable, but horrible), why haven’t they improved since ?
And for that, the whole country is at fault, not Mrs Thatcher.
Klive Roland
11 months ago
Thank you to the writer for an interesting article.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of Thatcherism, the people of the UK are clearly being badly let down when subjected to serial burglary and a police force which is not fit for purpose.
Klive Roland
11 months ago
Thank you to the writer for an interesting article.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of Thatcherism, the people of the UK are clearly being badly let down when subjected to serial burglary and a police force which is not fit for purpose.
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Tough crowd here today. I lived there most of my life (somewhere more genteel, not a former mining town). The visceral hatred for Thatcher remains. I haven’t ruled out moving back in the future.
It’s grim up north, as they say, but I wouldn’t say it is any grimmer than parts of North Wales. There they hate the English as well as Thatcher!
If you haven’t lived there and just know what your friends tell you, then I’d be cautious about thinking you understand it.
I really enjoyed your piece so I’ve just bought the Audible version of your book.
That may have stuck in my mind as I scanned through the thread, but it was not directed at you, just to the overall lack of empathy here. Darren McGarvey is another good guide to a world outside many people’s comprehension and experience.
Unlike Pip Fallow, Darren McGarvey realised that people need to take responsibility for their own lives instead of constantly blaming the system and some dead old lady from the 80s.
Unlike Pip Fallow, Darren McGarvey realised that people need to take responsibility for their own lives instead of constantly blaming the system and some dead old lady from the 80s.
That may have stuck in my mind as I scanned through the thread, but it was not directed at you, just to the overall lack of empathy here. Darren McGarvey is another good guide to a world outside many people’s comprehension and experience.
If you’re referencing what i wrote in my comment about “friends”, see also my later comment about my own upbringing.
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Tough crowd here today. I lived there most of my life (somewhere more genteel, not a former mining town). The visceral hatred for Thatcher remains. I haven’t ruled out moving back in the future.
It’s grim up north, as they say, but I wouldn’t say it is any grimmer than parts of North Wales. There they hate the English as well as Thatcher!
If you haven’t lived there and just know what your friends tell you, then I’d be cautious about thinking you understand it.
I really enjoyed your piece so I’ve just bought the Audible version of your book.
Steven Targett
11 months ago
I lived in North East from 1973 until 2003 in a former mining town. I do not recognise the author’s description at all. My wife lived there from 1958 and my parents and daughter still live there – we were never burgled.
Steven Targett
11 months ago
I lived in North East from 1973 until 2003 in a former mining town. I do not recognise the author’s description at all. My wife lived there from 1958 and my parents and daughter still live there – we were never burgled.
Alan Hawkes
11 months ago
So this wonderful community spirit did not come from anything within those communities? It came from infantilisation of the communities via government subsidising the men to be coal miners. If the communities were so strong and vibrant why did that spirit just collapse. And how did the author manage to become literate abroad, but could not become literate here?
Alan Hawkes
11 months ago
So this wonderful community spirit did not come from anything within those communities? It came from infantilisation of the communities via government subsidising the men to be coal miners. If the communities were so strong and vibrant why did that spirit just collapse. And how did the author manage to become literate abroad, but could not become literate here?
Mark Turner
11 months ago
It’s a shame that despite 50 years out in the world and your newly acquired skills in reading and writing (sorry, how can you attend school to the age of 12 and not be able to read or write without some kind of learning disability???) that you have not managed to garner any understanding of the conomics and issues around the UK’s industries under Thatchers government. Massively inefficient, run mostly by unions hell bent on control on their terms and blind to the coming changes in the worlds economies and conditions abroad. Despite the hardships and upheavals, Thatchers Britain built the economiy that has powered the UK. It was a hard but necessary path. It’s a shame we have not invested more in many and of course mistakes were made. But you seem so steeped in your student poloitics still, you are unable to see any other argument.
Mark Turner
11 months ago
It’s a shame that despite 50 years out in the world and your newly acquired skills in reading and writing (sorry, how can you attend school to the age of 12 and not be able to read or write without some kind of learning disability???) that you have not managed to garner any understanding of the conomics and issues around the UK’s industries under Thatchers government. Massively inefficient, run mostly by unions hell bent on control on their terms and blind to the coming changes in the worlds economies and conditions abroad. Despite the hardships and upheavals, Thatchers Britain built the economiy that has powered the UK. It was a hard but necessary path. It’s a shame we have not invested more in many and of course mistakes were made. But you seem so steeped in your student poloitics still, you are unable to see any other argument.
Mike F
11 months ago
The dystopian picture painted so beautifully by the author is plausible, the reasons (excuses?) for it less so.
My grandparents arrived in this country barely literate, speaking a foreign language, considered alien by the working class families surrounding them in the northern town where they settled. Their children lived in poverty, sharing an outside toilet with other families, yet they were taught to read and write by teachers who really had no great regard for them, and, despite having to leave school at the earliest opportunity to go out and make a living, they thrived, moving around the country when necessary for work, going to night-school to gain qualifications, and their own children – the grandchildren of illiterate foreigners – have degrees, the great-grandchildren of these illiterate immigrants have degrees from Oxford and Cambridge.
Why were my family able to do this? What did they have that these poor downtrodden Durham folk didn’t have? Was it just a lack of self-pity, or the absence of an expectation that it was up to someone else to provide for them?
Last edited 11 months ago by Mike F
Mike F
11 months ago
The dystopian picture painted so beautifully by the author is plausible, the reasons (excuses?) for it less so.
My grandparents arrived in this country barely literate, speaking a foreign language, considered alien by the working class families surrounding them in the northern town where they settled. Their children lived in poverty, sharing an outside toilet with other families, yet they were taught to read and write by teachers who really had no great regard for them, and, despite having to leave school at the earliest opportunity to go out and make a living, they thrived, moving around the country when necessary for work, going to night-school to gain qualifications, and their own children – the grandchildren of illiterate foreigners – have degrees, the great-grandchildren of these illiterate immigrants have degrees from Oxford and Cambridge.
Why were my family able to do this? What did they have that these poor downtrodden Durham folk didn’t have? Was it just a lack of self-pity, or the absence of an expectation that it was up to someone else to provide for them?
Last edited 11 months ago by Mike F
Philip Gowland
1 year ago
As someone whose parent’s live in an ex mining village in Durham, and who is in the process of moving back to the North East, I can’t say I recognise the Author’s description of the region. The Deano meme would be more apt.
Doesn’t sound like you are going back to live in Shotton Colliery
Philip Gowland
1 year ago
As someone whose parent’s live in an ex mining village in Durham, and who is in the process of moving back to the North East, I can’t say I recognise the Author’s description of the region. The Deano meme would be more apt.
P N
11 months ago
Seldom have I come across a man with a bigger chip on his shoulder. Your article sums up everything that is wrong with this country; that is the readiness to blame someone else for your ills. There’s a reason the underclass of Co Durham remain poor and it’s got everything to do with their attitude and little if anything to do with the system. Your inability to accept personal responsibility is not just shameful, it’s disgusting.
Thatcher didn’t close down your industry, the market did. My family lost its livelihood in shipping on the Tyne. It wasn’t any individual’s or the system’s fault, it was because Greek and Japanese builders were more efficient. The Government could have used the money from good businesses to prop up bad businesses but that would have made the country even poorer and could only ever be a short term solution. No Western country can compete with the Far East for industrial manufacturing nowadays so unless the working classes want to accept Chinese level wages, that ship has sailed. We are a service economy now.
Your article, and presumably your book, is based on the false assumption that your poverty is due to market forces and not market intervention. As Charles Munger said, “show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome.” As you describe in the article, Co Durham has a culture of benefit claiming; no one is incentivised to do anything other than continue the path of dependency.
P N
11 months ago
Seldom have I come across a man with a bigger chip on his shoulder. Your article sums up everything that is wrong with this country; that is the readiness to blame someone else for your ills. There’s a reason the underclass of Co Durham remain poor and it’s got everything to do with their attitude and little if anything to do with the system. Your inability to accept personal responsibility is not just shameful, it’s disgusting.
Thatcher didn’t close down your industry, the market did. My family lost its livelihood in shipping on the Tyne. It wasn’t any individual’s or the system’s fault, it was because Greek and Japanese builders were more efficient. The Government could have used the money from good businesses to prop up bad businesses but that would have made the country even poorer and could only ever be a short term solution. No Western country can compete with the Far East for industrial manufacturing nowadays so unless the working classes want to accept Chinese level wages, that ship has sailed. We are a service economy now.
Your article, and presumably your book, is based on the false assumption that your poverty is due to market forces and not market intervention. As Charles Munger said, “show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome.” As you describe in the article, Co Durham has a culture of benefit claiming; no one is incentivised to do anything other than continue the path of dependency.
Tony Buck
11 months ago
Britain is like a patient dying of a slow, debilitating disease.
Which came first and worst to the old industrial areas, but has now spread almost everywhere.
The causes go deeper than politics or economics. The central cause is that Britain is post-Christian, having slowly committed the sin of apostasy.
Nonsense. Apostasy is a weasel term, designed to confuse the simple and the gullible. The medieval period is over.
Tony Buck
11 months ago
Britain is like a patient dying of a slow, debilitating disease.
Which came first and worst to the old industrial areas, but has now spread almost everywhere.
The causes go deeper than politics or economics. The central cause is that Britain is post-Christian, having slowly committed the sin of apostasy.
Of which it is now slowly dying.
John Turnbull
11 months ago
I was born and grew up in South Shields. After getting a degree from Durham University I moved south to get a job, which has worked out well. It has taken me around the world so I have lived and worked in several different countries.
What I have found is that people generally assess their well being by comparing their lives with others. A country like Switzerland with high levels of devolution and equality produces a population which feels well. The UK, with its excessive centralisation and inequality, generates a lot of resentment. It is not your level of income that counts, but how it compares with that of others in your community.
The recent coronation provided a spectacle, but also lots of food for thought.
It is true that envy is a powerful and universal emotion; we should aspire to better though and not base society on what was once considered a deadly sin. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s Porsche.
It is true that envy is a powerful and universal emotion; we should aspire to better though and not base society on what was once considered a deadly sin. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s Porsche.
John Turnbull
11 months ago
I was born and grew up in South Shields. After getting a degree from Durham University I moved south to get a job, which has worked out well. It has taken me around the world so I have lived and worked in several different countries.
What I have found is that people generally assess their well being by comparing their lives with others. A country like Switzerland with high levels of devolution and equality produces a population which feels well. The UK, with its excessive centralisation and inequality, generates a lot of resentment. It is not your level of income that counts, but how it compares with that of others in your community.
The recent coronation provided a spectacle, but also lots of food for thought.
Philip Clayton
11 months ago
I’m surprised Unherd allowed you to publish this and the reaction to your piece does not surprise me. In the eyes of your critics everything in life is down to individual responsibility and any failure has b****r all to do with economics, poverty, or social and family circumstances.It’s just your laziness you chav. I grew up in poverty but books saved me. I learned to read quite late, at around 6, but once the ‘penny dropped’ I was, and am, an insatiable reader. But that doesn’t make me ‘cleverer’ or ‘more intelligent’ than you (I have never written a book), just more fortunate. I would love to know if youwere ever diagnosed as dyslexic. At the time of the miners strike I and a couple of other formed a miners support group at the London University Institute Of Education and ‘adopted’ Wearmouth. I was never able to go there but many of us did. But several times miners and women came down to London for fundraising and campaigning activities, and I got to know a few. After the defeat the entire community descended into despair. One of the many ironies was that miners had huge levels of home ownership created by the NCB selling off their tens of thousands of houses to miners. Because they owned their houses they couldn’t move away to ‘greener’ pastures unless they could sell their house; but they couldn’t sell them because once the mines were gone there was no economy and no employment so nobody would move there. Within half a decade drug and alcohol addiction became rife, along with domestic violence and crime. Shops closed because nobody had any money to buy anything and these communities entered a downward spiral from which they have never recovered. Within 2 years of the end of the strike four people I knew had committed suicide. We are now entering the 4th generation of people born and brought up in despair. No doubt your critics would say you shouldn’t have children if there are no sprospects for them. That is because they are dessicated souls who have no humanity and have the empathy of traffic bollard and the intellect of billiard balls. I for one will buy your book.
Philip Clayton
11 months ago
I’m surprised Unherd allowed you to publish this and the reaction to your piece does not surprise me. In the eyes of your critics everything in life is down to individual responsibility and any failure has b****r all to do with economics, poverty, or social and family circumstances.It’s just your laziness you chav. I grew up in poverty but books saved me. I learned to read quite late, at around 6, but once the ‘penny dropped’ I was, and am, an insatiable reader. But that doesn’t make me ‘cleverer’ or ‘more intelligent’ than you (I have never written a book), just more fortunate. I would love to know if youwere ever diagnosed as dyslexic. At the time of the miners strike I and a couple of other formed a miners support group at the London University Institute Of Education and ‘adopted’ Wearmouth. I was never able to go there but many of us did. But several times miners and women came down to London for fundraising and campaigning activities, and I got to know a few. After the defeat the entire community descended into despair. One of the many ironies was that miners had huge levels of home ownership created by the NCB selling off their tens of thousands of houses to miners. Because they owned their houses they couldn’t move away to ‘greener’ pastures unless they could sell their house; but they couldn’t sell them because once the mines were gone there was no economy and no employment so nobody would move there. Within half a decade drug and alcohol addiction became rife, along with domestic violence and crime. Shops closed because nobody had any money to buy anything and these communities entered a downward spiral from which they have never recovered. Within 2 years of the end of the strike four people I knew had committed suicide. We are now entering the 4th generation of people born and brought up in despair. No doubt your critics would say you shouldn’t have children if there are no sprospects for them. That is because they are dessicated souls who have no humanity and have the empathy of traffic bollard and the intellect of billiard balls. I for one will buy your book.
Andrew Fisher
11 months ago
This guy is understandably embittered, and no doubt the social and economic foundations of whole areas were destroyed. But to claim that Margaret Thatcher did this out of pure spite is the most complete nonsense, as is the idea that if we renationalised every industry, things would be marvellous. As they were of course in the 1970s. Nor can the very real failings of the modern police who don’t seem to care any more about combatting crime be blamed on her.
This de-industrialisation phenomenon is not unique to Britain as the author should know, look at Northern France, Belgium, swathes of the Mid West of the US and many other countries. These industries were completely uneconomic by then in the West. Perhaps we should have banned cheaper imports from the rapidly industrialising developing world, but protectionism hasn’t exactly had a good record.
I do think.the author has a point in saying Britain dealt with this legacy particularly poorly, but then we had one of the most concentrated and long established industrial regions anywhere.
Andrew Fisher
11 months ago
This guy is understandably embittered, and no doubt the social and economic foundations of whole areas were destroyed. But to claim that Margaret Thatcher did this out of pure spite is the most complete nonsense, as is the idea that if we renationalised every industry, things would be marvellous. As they were of course in the 1970s. Nor can the very real failings of the modern police who don’t seem to care any more about combatting crime be blamed on her.
This de-industrialisation phenomenon is not unique to Britain as the author should know, look at Northern France, Belgium, swathes of the Mid West of the US and many other countries. These industries were completely uneconomic by then in the West. Perhaps we should have banned cheaper imports from the rapidly industrialising developing world, but protectionism hasn’t exactly had a good record.
I do think.the author has a point in saying Britain dealt with this legacy particularly poorly, but then we had one of the most concentrated and long established industrial regions anywhere.
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago
Socioeconomic Darwinism is not just a British phenomenon, and not confined to specific classes, although those not taught the agility required to live in the 21st century certainly feel the brunt. Frankly, life these days is absolutely terrifying for most people.
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago
Socioeconomic Darwinism is not just a British phenomenon, and not confined to specific classes, although those not taught the agility required to live in the 21st century certainly feel the brunt. Frankly, life these days is absolutely terrifying for most people.
James Kirk
11 months ago
I know staunch Labour supporters like this. They conveniently forget Blair and Brown’s 13 years; that Wilson and Callaghan closed down more pits than Thatcher; that 5 of the last 13 years were partly LibDem; they forget 2008 and Covid. As for the Police, who got Starmer’s ‘Currygate’ ignored? The urban decay and squalor of Biden’s America; Trudeau’s woke fascism against the truckers; the exodus from Venezuela; Sadiq’s London. Labour’s world, not Thatcher’s.
James Kirk
11 months ago
I know staunch Labour supporters like this. They conveniently forget Blair and Brown’s 13 years; that Wilson and Callaghan closed down more pits than Thatcher; that 5 of the last 13 years were partly LibDem; they forget 2008 and Covid. As for the Police, who got Starmer’s ‘Currygate’ ignored? The urban decay and squalor of Biden’s America; Trudeau’s woke fascism against the truckers; the exodus from Venezuela; Sadiq’s London. Labour’s world, not Thatcher’s.
Zaph Mann
1 year ago
I was not a victim of Thatcherism, by pure chance the house I bought had tripled in value when I sold it because I was moving abroad – a month later the housing crash and many people I knew were in negative equity. It was luck. The article is a valuable reminder of just how much damage Thatcherism caused; this I saw and hated. The catalogue of political actions that damaged British society and benefitted the wealthiest are many – wasting north sea oil revenues along the way – I will give but two things to contemplate which if you heard that they were happening in any other western democratic country would provoke outrage: 1. I attended a open air concert in the grounds of the Greater London Council (GLC) – put on by the then mayor and free to the public. It was attended by all ages and peaceful. The Smiths were playing as I recall – I had a high vantage point and was bemused to suddenly see a gang of hundreds of neo-nazi skinheads sweep through the crowd below kicking and beating people of all ages as they went leaving a blood strewn wake of injured. News reports blamed the GLC and anarchists for this but independent footage revealed that the rioters had actually been ‘escorted’ by police on horse-back who mysteriously opened up to let them run at the crowd.
Subsequent to losing local city elections in London, Manchester, Sheffield etc… Thatcher pushed a bill through parliament abolishing the government of all the cities that voted for the opposition! In London she then sold off the GLC’s buildings to prevent them coming back. Can you imagine this anywhere else? The US President abolishing the governments of San Francisco, New York etc…?? Beggars belief.
“abolishing the government of all the cities that voted for the opposition”
To imply that “Thatcher” left these cities with no local government is just plain dishonest.
“Greater London Council. See, in the UK in the 80s you’d have district councils, for towns/sections of towns, and county councils for larger areas, and the county council handled stuff that was impractical for district govts to handle. The GLC was the London equivalent of a county council.
She shut it down essentially because it was very left wing and it, and its leader Ken Livingstone, were getting too influential. It did not have good results for the city because it made it difficult to have coordinated policies on crime, fire, transport, etc, across the boroughs, which is why a new version of it, the Greater London Authority, with a Mayor, was established in 2000 – and Ken Livingstone was elected as the first Mayor.”
“The Local Government Act 1985 to dissolve the GLC was passed in 1985.
However, abolishing the GLC (which was hugely popular with the majority of Londoners) couldn’t be abolished, until the ACt became law in 1986, because of due parliamentary procedure ahead of GLC elections. An overwhelming win for Labour would have been even more embarrassing for the Conservatives.
But, the Government was able to cancel the election. This has now set a very dangerous legal precedent. A future despotic regime can now claim constitutional authority for cancelling democratic elections. The largely pro Conservative media made light of this blatant power grab.”
“Greater London Council. See, in the UK in the 80s you’d have district councils, for towns/sections of towns, and county councils for larger areas, and the county council handled stuff that was impractical for district govts to handle. The GLC was the London equivalent of a county council.
She shut it down essentially because it was very left wing and it, and its leader Ken Livingstone, were getting too influential. It did not have good results for the city because it made it difficult to have coordinated policies on crime, fire, transport, etc, across the boroughs, which is why a new version of it, the Greater London Authority, with a Mayor, was established in 2000 – and Ken Livingstone was elected as the first Mayor.”
“The Local Government Act 1985 to dissolve the GLC was passed in 1985.
However, abolishing the GLC (which was hugely popular with the majority of Londoners) couldn’t be abolished, until the ACt became law in 1986, because of due parliamentary procedure ahead of GLC elections. An overwhelming win for Labour would have been even more embarrassing for the Conservatives.
But, the Government was able to cancel the election. This has now set a very dangerous legal precedent. A future despotic regime can now claim constitutional authority for cancelling democratic elections. The largely pro Conservative media made light of this blatant power grab.”
“abolishing the government of all the cities that voted for the opposition”
To imply that “Thatcher” left these cities with no local government is just plain dishonest.
Zaph Mann
1 year ago
I was not a victim of Thatcherism, by pure chance the house I bought had tripled in value when I sold it because I was moving abroad – a month later the housing crash and many people I knew were in negative equity. It was luck. The article is a valuable reminder of just how much damage Thatcherism caused; this I saw and hated. The catalogue of political actions that damaged British society and benefitted the wealthiest are many – wasting north sea oil revenues along the way – I will give but two things to contemplate which if you heard that they were happening in any other western democratic country would provoke outrage: 1. I attended a open air concert in the grounds of the Greater London Council (GLC) – put on by the then mayor and free to the public. It was attended by all ages and peaceful. The Smiths were playing as I recall – I had a high vantage point and was bemused to suddenly see a gang of hundreds of neo-nazi skinheads sweep through the crowd below kicking and beating people of all ages as they went leaving a blood strewn wake of injured. News reports blamed the GLC and anarchists for this but independent footage revealed that the rioters had actually been ‘escorted’ by police on horse-back who mysteriously opened up to let them run at the crowd.
Subsequent to losing local city elections in London, Manchester, Sheffield etc… Thatcher pushed a bill through parliament abolishing the government of all the cities that voted for the opposition! In London she then sold off the GLC’s buildings to prevent them coming back. Can you imagine this anywhere else? The US President abolishing the governments of San Francisco, New York etc…?? Beggars belief.
I was not taught anything at my comprehensive school that might have prevented me from going down the pit, on the contrary, I was only ever given the skills required for when I inevitably found myself at the bottom of that 1,500-foot shaft. As coal could not be cut by pen, it had been decided I and many around me should remain illiterate.
Absolute nonsense, i’m afraid. You don’t spend a minimum of twelve years at school being prevented from learning to read, especially if you’ve got a reasonably able brain. You don’t learn to read of your own volition, perhaps because your mates aren’t bothering, it’s not “the thing to do”. Blaming your own self-inflicted illiteracy on “the system” signifies an ingrained-from-birth attitude towards thinking the world owes you something; it doesn’t. This seeps out into much of the rest of the article.
I have friends who live in the area. There are, of course, social problems which he describes and if the book he’s had published is based around this narrative i’ve no doubt it’ll attract attention and sympathy. But what he describes is tainted with the attitude, which my friends don’t have, that he’s been hard done by. Lest any readers take pity, let me just say that the people i know who live in the area lead perfectly good and fruitful lives.
The pockets of poverty he describes exist in many, many other places in the western world, where once thriving industries have vanished. The Durham area is no worse off than any of them. That mightn’t be much consolation for those captured in a cycle of deprivation, but they can’t be regarded as being a ‘special case’ or the responsibility of any one factor (such as Thatcher) that the simplistic narrative in this article portrays. Let’s not forget, for instance, that Tony Blair was the MP for a small Durham town, Sedgefield from 1983-2007, pretty much the period this article is concerned with. If those problems were of such concern to his constituents, i think he’d have known about it; or perhaps he too was content to let the area he represented drift.
To be fair to the author, since he’s 57 and left school in 1982, he probably didn’t crack year 12. I teach trade & post-trade electrical and all my students have done Y12, and I have heaps of borderline illiterates in my classes. I suspect the education trends in the UK are similar to Australia, so it’s perfectly imaginable that too many youngsters in both countries get a rubbish education in wreading and righting.
I generally had two or three borderline illiterates in my class when I was teaching philosophy to nice upper-middle class undergraduates at the Russell Group university where I did my PhD.
The admission criteria are clearly wrong.
I’ve still got them in 2023.
Isn’t it the case that 10% of the human race have an IQ of 80 or below (perhaps more where people have learning disabilities) The US Army does not accept people with IQs less than 80, are we, therefore, surprised at the number of borderline illiterates?
Not at all. What surprises me is kids going through 13 years of schooling, getting straight A’s at A-level, and winning a place at a top university without being able to construct a grammatical sentence of their own language.
Not at all. What surprises me is kids going through 13 years of schooling, getting straight A’s at A-level, and winning a place at a top university without being able to construct a grammatical sentence of their own language.
A few years ago I saw a sheet on a notice board at Reading University advertising remedial maths classes in the mysteries of arithmetic, percentages, basic statistics, etc. I suspect that it was aimed at the sort of people who had chosen psychology as a soft option and then discovered to their horror that it required number crunching. But if people can bluff their way into serious tertiary education when they are so unprepared, we are obviously wasting truckloads of money from age 5 onwards.
The admission criteria are clearly wrong.
I’ve still got them in 2023.
Isn’t it the case that 10% of the human race have an IQ of 80 or below (perhaps more where people have learning disabilities) The US Army does not accept people with IQs less than 80, are we, therefore, surprised at the number of borderline illiterates?
A few years ago I saw a sheet on a notice board at Reading University advertising remedial maths classes in the mysteries of arithmetic, percentages, basic statistics, etc. I suspect that it was aimed at the sort of people who had chosen psychology as a soft option and then discovered to their horror that it required number crunching. But if people can bluff their way into serious tertiary education when they are so unprepared, we are obviously wasting truckloads of money from age 5 onwards.
I generally had two or three borderline illiterates in my class when I was teaching philosophy to nice upper-middle class undergraduates at the Russell Group university where I did my PhD.
The idea that Tony Blair (a Thatcherite) would have been at all bothered is laughable.
Indeed. My point was regarding the complexity of post-industrialisation rather than the simplistic narrative the author puts forward.
The article is also an insult to the vast majority of people who live in the Durham area.
Don’t you be worrying about the people of County Durham. Apart from a very small minority they have seen with their own eyes, the reason I write!
I can only assume you write of Easington, Horden, Peterlee, South Hetton etc. as you have provided only anecdotes whereas most UnHerd pieces are littered with references.
My father-in-law worked as a shipyard welder on the Wear but with a strong Methodist background his attitudes and morality were completely opposed to the attitudes depicted by the author as typical to the area. I have also met a number of former miners who have not succumbed to the malaise, ignorance and blame culture of which pockets can certainly be found in Durham but have made good.
My eldest son chose to go to 6th form college in Peterlee and still regularly sees friends whose backgrounds are undoubtedly working class but who do not share the attitudes described here even if some might share elements of the distorted political views that were fostered by a number of the teachers there.
Unfortunately the author seems to describe only a lurid segment of life in County Durham and his analysis of the causes are so partial and limited as to suggest greater enlightenment is unlikely to be found in his book.The article smacks of propaganda rather than a serious contribution to analysing the undoubted problems that do exist in the old pit villages or the reasons for the closure of the mines. It is a pity since the author has clearly turned his own life round so might have some Unherd insights to put forward.
I was born and brought up in Cumberland (Now happily restored from the dystopian creation of bureaucrat-knows-best, Cumbria).
Harold Wilson’s govt shut far more pits than Thatchers, that’s one of the most widely known, ‘little known’ facts, and despite being embedded in an early, and equally ubiquitous culture of pit villages, I find the author’s assertions unrecognisable.
My dad, a miner obviously, did not want me to go down the pit at any price, nor any of my brothers and sisters, and none of us did, not only because they were all getting shut, but because in the decade of the Beatles, Stones,Moon shots and what have you we had other ideas.
I don’t recognise his dystopian vision even though West Cumberland was hit every bit as hard in the 1960s as Durham was in the 1980s.
He needs to get out more.
Cumbria as a county actually made a lot of sense – just look at a map – Westmoreland despite its history, rather little!
I note with interest you points regarding HW labour government shutting more coal mines than Thatcher.
But you fail to mention the the mines that were shut down were mines with the worst conditions and were so unproductive that shutting them was a priority on health and safety grounds
.
You also fail to mention the 1974 plan for coal.
A tremendous leap forward in health and safety and new longwall mining technology.
All centred around a national grid to supply efficiency of electricity supply to a growing economy and the cheap supply of power to the masses.
In 1981 i was possible the last intake of a group young men into the coal industry into the North Nottinghamshire coal fields (Thoresby colliery)
I did my training at loundhall training college before setting upon my mining career of 28 years.
I worked in a coal mine that was modern and efficient and also very sade that produced over 1 5 million tons of coal per year.
I was well paid and only missed one year’s pay due to the fact I stood and fought in the great strike of 1984/5.
I left the coal industry in 2008 due to my knee injuries and looked for alternative work.
I found that work with the probation service in Nottinghamshire.
My job brought me into daily contact with the criminal fraternity.
Over the years I seen so many once proud communities and their mining stock fall into degrigation poverty and hopelessness.
These once proud communities are now waste lands which are over run with gangs ,drugs,prostitution ,violence.
I despair at the hopelessness of individuals who at the age of 18 have written their life’s off.
A comment and discussion with so many of these poor souls usually starts like this.
So charlie.how long have you worked for the probation service.
Ok ,I worked has a coal miner for 28 years before I started working for the probation service.
Wow you know my dad/ grandad worked at Hucknall/ the pits.
He says it was really hard work and dangerous, but he loved it and the money was great.
I wish I could of had a chance of working down the pit.
It’s soul destroying.
Thatcher and the tories distroyed communities for pure political gain.
We are now paying the price for evil act of political genocide on a section of the working whos only crime was to fight for a better future.
Feel free to try and convince me otherwise.
Cumbria as a county actually made a lot of sense – just look at a map – Westmoreland despite its history, rather little!
I note with interest you points regarding HW labour government shutting more coal mines than Thatcher.
But you fail to mention the the mines that were shut down were mines with the worst conditions and were so unproductive that shutting them was a priority on health and safety grounds
.
You also fail to mention the 1974 plan for coal.
A tremendous leap forward in health and safety and new longwall mining technology.
All centred around a national grid to supply efficiency of electricity supply to a growing economy and the cheap supply of power to the masses.
In 1981 i was possible the last intake of a group young men into the coal industry into the North Nottinghamshire coal fields (Thoresby colliery)
I did my training at loundhall training college before setting upon my mining career of 28 years.
I worked in a coal mine that was modern and efficient and also very sade that produced over 1 5 million tons of coal per year.
I was well paid and only missed one year’s pay due to the fact I stood and fought in the great strike of 1984/5.
I left the coal industry in 2008 due to my knee injuries and looked for alternative work.
I found that work with the probation service in Nottinghamshire.
My job brought me into daily contact with the criminal fraternity.
Over the years I seen so many once proud communities and their mining stock fall into degrigation poverty and hopelessness.
These once proud communities are now waste lands which are over run with gangs ,drugs,prostitution ,violence.
I despair at the hopelessness of individuals who at the age of 18 have written their life’s off.
A comment and discussion with so many of these poor souls usually starts like this.
So charlie.how long have you worked for the probation service.
Ok ,I worked has a coal miner for 28 years before I started working for the probation service.
Wow you know my dad/ grandad worked at Hucknall/ the pits.
He says it was really hard work and dangerous, but he loved it and the money was great.
I wish I could of had a chance of working down the pit.
It’s soul destroying.
Thatcher and the tories distroyed communities for pure political gain.
We are now paying the price for evil act of political genocide on a section of the working whos only crime was to fight for a better future.
Feel free to try and convince me otherwise.
I was born and brought up in Cumberland (Now happily restored from the dystopian creation of bureaucrat-knows-best, Cumbria).
Harold Wilson’s govt shut far more pits than Thatchers, that’s one of the most widely known, ‘little known’ facts, and despite being embedded in an early, and equally ubiquitous culture of pit villages, I find the author’s assertions unrecognisable.
My dad, a miner obviously, did not want me to go down the pit at any price, nor any of my brothers and sisters, and none of us did, not only because they were all getting shut, but because in the decade of the Beatles, Stones,Moon shots and what have you we had other ideas.
I don’t recognise his dystopian vision even though West Cumberland was hit every bit as hard in the 1960s as Durham was in the 1980s.
He needs to get out more.
The headline (not written by the article’s author) is typically lazy, not bothering to differentiate between Durham and Co. Durham (or at least the parts that are under discussion here).
My father-in-law worked as a shipyard welder on the Wear but with a strong Methodist background his attitudes and morality were completely opposed to the attitudes depicted by the author as typical to the area. I have also met a number of former miners who have not succumbed to the malaise, ignorance and blame culture of which pockets can certainly be found in Durham but have made good.
My eldest son chose to go to 6th form college in Peterlee and still regularly sees friends whose backgrounds are undoubtedly working class but who do not share the attitudes described here even if some might share elements of the distorted political views that were fostered by a number of the teachers there.
Unfortunately the author seems to describe only a lurid segment of life in County Durham and his analysis of the causes are so partial and limited as to suggest greater enlightenment is unlikely to be found in his book.The article smacks of propaganda rather than a serious contribution to analysing the undoubted problems that do exist in the old pit villages or the reasons for the closure of the mines. It is a pity since the author has clearly turned his own life round so might have some Unherd insights to put forward.
The headline (not written by the article’s author) is typically lazy, not bothering to differentiate between Durham and Co. Durham (or at least the parts that are under discussion here).
I can only assume you write of Easington, Horden, Peterlee, South Hetton etc. as you have provided only anecdotes whereas most UnHerd pieces are littered with references.
Don’t you be worrying about the people of County Durham. Apart from a very small minority they have seen with their own eyes, the reason I write!
There is only 1 person Blair has ever cared about.
And yet, all of the locals would happily vote Labour, despite the contempt in which they were held by Bliar and his cohort.
The only prize Tony Blair’s constituents won was a far from glittering box of wooden spoons.
Being ‘bothered’ isn’t defined by whether you hold a whole set of leftist political views, whose results have just been so successful when put into application anywhere.
British industries were famously uncompetitive and dogged with industrial disputes in the halcyon days before Thatcher. The British people were also notably ‘unpatriotic’, if you like, in quickly switching to better quality foreign products rather than mediocre British ones.
The Left and the trades unions, along with mediocre management all have to take a big share of he blame for this, not just one demonised political figure who actually on the whole did hugely improve UK economic performance.
Indeed. My point was regarding the complexity of post-industrialisation rather than the simplistic narrative the author puts forward.
The article is also an insult to the vast majority of people who live in the Durham area.
There is only 1 person Blair has ever cared about.
And yet, all of the locals would happily vote Labour, despite the contempt in which they were held by Bliar and his cohort.
The only prize Tony Blair’s constituents won was a far from glittering box of wooden spoons.
Being ‘bothered’ isn’t defined by whether you hold a whole set of leftist political views, whose results have just been so successful when put into application anywhere.
British industries were famously uncompetitive and dogged with industrial disputes in the halcyon days before Thatcher. The British people were also notably ‘unpatriotic’, if you like, in quickly switching to better quality foreign products rather than mediocre British ones.
The Left and the trades unions, along with mediocre management all have to take a big share of he blame for this, not just one demonised political figure who actually on the whole did hugely improve UK economic performance.
I went to a really bad comprehensive growing up with a young single mother on an extremely rough council estate during the 1980s. I still find it pretty hard to describe what went on there, especially to people who went to good schools. Learning pretty much goes out the window when you are getting sucker-punched from behind by the class sadist, or a mental-case attempts to stab you in the eye with a soldering iron, or a group of lads are stamping on your face just for fun. The borstal depicted in the 1970s film Scum was only marginally worse than the school I attended.
Despite earning a doctorate degree and starting my own business, that place left an indelible mark on me: a kind of watchful paranoia that never goes away. The one good thing that came out of that experience was that it taught me how to fight.
This is a comment on the local school where I grew up from a member of a more recent generation
I went there myself and left last year, and I have to say it’s possibly the worst school within Stoke. There were race wars every other week, there were gangs, weapons and drugs are often found, and certain areas of the school felt like ghettos with only a select race are within an area. Honestly, if you’re thinking about taking your kids there, don’t, and if your kids are already there, move them. Do not blame the teachers, most of the kids don’t want to learn as all they do is mess around, and do all that has been said above. I legitimately felt deprived going there, and ultimately let down, so please do not subject your kids to this utter joke of a school.
Read more at http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/stoke-trent-high-schools-fail-inspections/story-26053614-detail/story.html#8ZfmRHr7qhokuidk.99
Excellent post. As a Headmaster of a tough school said to me ” If 25% of a class and the school are troublemakers, one is not involved in education but riot control.”
Those thugs you mentioned largely come from unskilled uneducated background and despise learning. They are not the sort of people employable in advanced engineering such such aircraft, misssiles, satellite or jet engine design and manufacture.
When Labour came to power in 1945, the politicians, civil servants , union leaders , teachers and academics were more or less ignorant of international trade and technology. The British Empire was a protected markey fro British companies yet Labour were ignorant of the fact that dismantling it would most impact un and semi skilled jobs in the UK.By 1963 The German Miracle had occurred yet the un and semi-skilled union leaders did nothing to upgrade skills. By 1968 British heavy industry was in massive decline partly assisted by the development of electronic control systems and the closure of the Suez Canal. The NCB could have been privatised or turned into a mutual society and turned into an international mining company such as British Gas. This would have meant the massive upgrading of skills and the creation of a cosmopolitan outlook by all staff
Those who understood international trade and technology largely worked abroad often in oil, mining, construction, chemicals, shipping and banking; when they pointed out the scale of foreign competition were at best ignored.
Such a frozen mindset also operated at top level management of big firms as illustrated by BP Chemicals still in 1980s monitoring its overseas sales statistics under such headings as British Empire, Red China, pre- Independence terms for African States and with EEU and EFTA nowhere to be seen.
BP was described as the technical branch of the FCO.Shell appears to have been more discerning as were the mining companies, HSBC, etc. If one looks at post 1945, those with the get up and go tended to work overseas for a company. Those working in the UK who ended up running a company had spent it in the slower lanes.
BP was described as the technical branch of the FCO.Shell appears to have been more discerning as were the mining companies, HSBC, etc. If one looks at post 1945, those with the get up and go tended to work overseas for a company. Those working in the UK who ended up running a company had spent it in the slower lanes.
The unions were responsible for not upgrading skills???!!! What planet do you live on? Unions were far more than organisations concerned just with pay and working conditions. They ran social clubs, provided education to apprentices, taught social skills and the values of commonality and solidarity. What they were NOT responsible for was investment. Since the 1890’s most major British companies paid out 95% of profits in dividends and set aside 5% for R&D. They still do. Britain runs a rentier economy. The corporations of that well known bastion of communism, the USA, invested 30% of their profits in development; as did Japan, Germany, France etc.It wasn’t the unions who decided what price to charge for products. The Mini-car, designed by an Italian, was the second biggest selling in history after the Volkswagen Beetle. The unions were blamed for the destrcution of the British Car industry. But in the early 70’s it turned out that EVERY single Mini car had been sold at a loss. Foreign competition won because the British owners of industry saw businesses as a means to line their pockets. In 1976 I worked in a factory on a machine built in 1928 and was tolod it didn’t need replacing or upgrading because “it does the job it was designed to, that’s a quality machine that.” The fact is was 50% slower than European competitors was of no consequence.
The EETPU, the electricians union had a school to upgrade the skills of their members. Self employed craftsmen have to regularly update their skills, especially electricians. German unions understood a balance sheet and negotiated pay deals based on profits.
The frequent strikes reduced quality and prolonged delivery time. There is no point in investing in technology which reduces the employment of un and semi skilled workforce if the unions refuse to upgrade skills. When it comes to computer software, the cost of training the staff is often twice that of the licences. The frequent Spanish Practices and demarcation strikes made investing in new technology pointless. The result was that many of the best craftsmen, foremen, technicians, scientists and engineers went to work overseas because they were not prepared to have their lives run by some bloody minded shop steward who was ignorant of international trade and technology.
The basic evolution of technology is to move from un through semi to skilled workforce. We no longer build canals, make sails or transport goods in wooden ships. An architect I knew was called a scab because in the 1980s, as a draftsmen he learnt to use CAD.
The only union leaders who understood the need to upgrade skils such as Bill Jordon, Gavin Laird, Eric Chapple , John Lyons and eric Hammond were mocked by the trade unions leaders who represented the un and smi skilled union which in the 1970s made up 70 % of the TUC. NACODS did not sup;ort Scargill.
There’s a lot of truth to what you say, but completely exonerating the destructive role of the trades unions – but also ‘wildcat’ strikes led by militant left wingers, who were endlessly on strike against nationalised industries under Labour governments, is going too far.
It was the shop stewards of the un an semi skilled unions which most of the caused problems. There is massive difference in mentality between un / semi skilled and craft union where members have undergone 5 plus years of apprenticeship; namely in responsibility for quality, safety and planning.
The craft unions such as EETPU, NACODS and AEU understood technology evolved and skills had to be upgraded. However in the 1970s, 70% of the TUC were un and semi skilled. In Germany it is the better educated and trained craft unions who can read a balance sheet who influence industrial policy, not the un and semi skilled unions. In Germany pay is based on profit, not over time and people were expected to work extra hours if needed. In Britain overtime was distributed by shop stewards which gave them immense power. In Britain, due to absenteeism (Mondays and Fridays), strikes and indifference to quality, meant too many goods were faulty. Also Unions prevented people being sacked for shoddy work.
One of the reasons the for sucess if Japanese manufacturing was the very high quality of workmanship and short delivery times which cannot be achieved if there are strikes, absenteeism and indifference to quality. Khazen, continuous improvement is a state of mind which runs through much of Japanese society whether it is making swords or cars.
Much of British Industrial policy was formed by D Jay, H Gaitskill, H Wilson and the leaders of the un and semi skilled unions who knew nothing about international trade and technology and in particular, industry within the USA, Germany and Japan in th period of 1945 to 1951 and 1963 to 1970.
Frank Cousins( lorry driver and therefore semi skilled ) of the TGWU was Wilson’s Minister Of Technology. Perhaps if Frank Chapple of the EETPU had been Minister of Technology the decline in British Industry under Wilson would not have been so great.
By 1967, NCB Mining Engineers were leaving Britain because they saw no future in Britsh coal mining . If an organisation are losing the brightest and best, then it is in trouble.
It was the shop stewards of the un an semi skilled unions which most of the caused problems. There is massive difference in mentality between un / semi skilled and craft union where members have undergone 5 plus years of apprenticeship; namely in responsibility for quality, safety and planning.
The craft unions such as EETPU, NACODS and AEU understood technology evolved and skills had to be upgraded. However in the 1970s, 70% of the TUC were un and semi skilled. In Germany it is the better educated and trained craft unions who can read a balance sheet who influence industrial policy, not the un and semi skilled unions. In Germany pay is based on profit, not over time and people were expected to work extra hours if needed. In Britain overtime was distributed by shop stewards which gave them immense power. In Britain, due to absenteeism (Mondays and Fridays), strikes and indifference to quality, meant too many goods were faulty. Also Unions prevented people being sacked for shoddy work.
One of the reasons the for sucess if Japanese manufacturing was the very high quality of workmanship and short delivery times which cannot be achieved if there are strikes, absenteeism and indifference to quality. Khazen, continuous improvement is a state of mind which runs through much of Japanese society whether it is making swords or cars.
Much of British Industrial policy was formed by D Jay, H Gaitskill, H Wilson and the leaders of the un and semi skilled unions who knew nothing about international trade and technology and in particular, industry within the USA, Germany and Japan in th period of 1945 to 1951 and 1963 to 1970.
Frank Cousins( lorry driver and therefore semi skilled ) of the TGWU was Wilson’s Minister Of Technology. Perhaps if Frank Chapple of the EETPU had been Minister of Technology the decline in British Industry under Wilson would not have been so great.
By 1967, NCB Mining Engineers were leaving Britain because they saw no future in Britsh coal mining . If an organisation are losing the brightest and best, then it is in trouble.
In 1974 I was working on the Vandervells factory in Maidenhead (long since demolished to make way for a housing estate). The electroplating machines were made in the USA in the 1930s. But those were bought in the days of old Vandervell, an industrial pioneer. He was dead and the factory was part of GKN. Stirling Moss’s Vanwell racing car in British Racing Green was still proudly on display in the entrance hall of the admin office block. I guess that car is now in a museum or some wealthy American’s garage somewhere.
The EETPU, the electricians union had a school to upgrade the skills of their members. Self employed craftsmen have to regularly update their skills, especially electricians. German unions understood a balance sheet and negotiated pay deals based on profits.
The frequent strikes reduced quality and prolonged delivery time. There is no point in investing in technology which reduces the employment of un and semi skilled workforce if the unions refuse to upgrade skills. When it comes to computer software, the cost of training the staff is often twice that of the licences. The frequent Spanish Practices and demarcation strikes made investing in new technology pointless. The result was that many of the best craftsmen, foremen, technicians, scientists and engineers went to work overseas because they were not prepared to have their lives run by some bloody minded shop steward who was ignorant of international trade and technology.
The basic evolution of technology is to move from un through semi to skilled workforce. We no longer build canals, make sails or transport goods in wooden ships. An architect I knew was called a scab because in the 1980s, as a draftsmen he learnt to use CAD.
The only union leaders who understood the need to upgrade skils such as Bill Jordon, Gavin Laird, Eric Chapple , John Lyons and eric Hammond were mocked by the trade unions leaders who represented the un and smi skilled union which in the 1970s made up 70 % of the TUC. NACODS did not sup;ort Scargill.
There’s a lot of truth to what you say, but completely exonerating the destructive role of the trades unions – but also ‘wildcat’ strikes led by militant left wingers, who were endlessly on strike against nationalised industries under Labour governments, is going too far.
In 1974 I was working on the Vandervells factory in Maidenhead (long since demolished to make way for a housing estate). The electroplating machines were made in the USA in the 1930s. But those were bought in the days of old Vandervell, an industrial pioneer. He was dead and the factory was part of GKN. Stirling Moss’s Vanwell racing car in British Racing Green was still proudly on display in the entrance hall of the admin office block. I guess that car is now in a museum or some wealthy American’s garage somewhere.
I suspect that in every country there is a certain percentage of people who simply cannot be educated above the most basic level. In the past there were jobs for such people performing very simple, repetitive tasks in factories etc.
As most of our manufacturing has been upgraded to highly skilled work or outsourced to low wage economies there are very few jobs for such people – emptying bins is one of the few left I imagine.
So we now have a permanently unemployed underclass who turn to crime on the assumption that it pays better than an unskilled minimum wage job even if you can get one – not easy with a criminal record.
What to do with these people who make up the bulk of the criminal class and prison population is a huge problem that no government of any political stripe has been able to solve.
Such a frozen mindset also operated at top level management of big firms as illustrated by BP Chemicals still in 1980s monitoring its overseas sales statistics under such headings as British Empire, Red China, pre- Independence terms for African States and with EEU and EFTA nowhere to be seen.
The unions were responsible for not upgrading skills???!!! What planet do you live on? Unions were far more than organisations concerned just with pay and working conditions. They ran social clubs, provided education to apprentices, taught social skills and the values of commonality and solidarity. What they were NOT responsible for was investment. Since the 1890’s most major British companies paid out 95% of profits in dividends and set aside 5% for R&D. They still do. Britain runs a rentier economy. The corporations of that well known bastion of communism, the USA, invested 30% of their profits in development; as did Japan, Germany, France etc.It wasn’t the unions who decided what price to charge for products. The Mini-car, designed by an Italian, was the second biggest selling in history after the Volkswagen Beetle. The unions were blamed for the destrcution of the British Car industry. But in the early 70’s it turned out that EVERY single Mini car had been sold at a loss. Foreign competition won because the British owners of industry saw businesses as a means to line their pockets. In 1976 I worked in a factory on a machine built in 1928 and was tolod it didn’t need replacing or upgrading because “it does the job it was designed to, that’s a quality machine that.” The fact is was 50% slower than European competitors was of no consequence.
I suspect that in every country there is a certain percentage of people who simply cannot be educated above the most basic level. In the past there were jobs for such people performing very simple, repetitive tasks in factories etc.
As most of our manufacturing has been upgraded to highly skilled work or outsourced to low wage economies there are very few jobs for such people – emptying bins is one of the few left I imagine.
So we now have a permanently unemployed underclass who turn to crime on the assumption that it pays better than an unskilled minimum wage job even if you can get one – not easy with a criminal record.
What to do with these people who make up the bulk of the criminal class and prison population is a huge problem that no government of any political stripe has been able to solve.
I can imagine it is perfectly possible to spend upwards of 12 years in such a school and learn next to nothing. They are regarded as holding pens basically not places of learning.
This is a comment on the local school where I grew up from a member of a more recent generation
I went there myself and left last year, and I have to say it’s possibly the worst school within Stoke. There were race wars every other week, there were gangs, weapons and drugs are often found, and certain areas of the school felt like ghettos with only a select race are within an area. Honestly, if you’re thinking about taking your kids there, don’t, and if your kids are already there, move them. Do not blame the teachers, most of the kids don’t want to learn as all they do is mess around, and do all that has been said above. I legitimately felt deprived going there, and ultimately let down, so please do not subject your kids to this utter joke of a school.
Read more at http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/stoke-trent-high-schools-fail-inspections/story-26053614-detail/story.html#8ZfmRHr7qhokuidk.99
Excellent post. As a Headmaster of a tough school said to me ” If 25% of a class and the school are troublemakers, one is not involved in education but riot control.”
Those thugs you mentioned largely come from unskilled uneducated background and despise learning. They are not the sort of people employable in advanced engineering such such aircraft, misssiles, satellite or jet engine design and manufacture.
When Labour came to power in 1945, the politicians, civil servants , union leaders , teachers and academics were more or less ignorant of international trade and technology. The British Empire was a protected markey fro British companies yet Labour were ignorant of the fact that dismantling it would most impact un and semi skilled jobs in the UK.By 1963 The German Miracle had occurred yet the un and semi-skilled union leaders did nothing to upgrade skills. By 1968 British heavy industry was in massive decline partly assisted by the development of electronic control systems and the closure of the Suez Canal. The NCB could have been privatised or turned into a mutual society and turned into an international mining company such as British Gas. This would have meant the massive upgrading of skills and the creation of a cosmopolitan outlook by all staff
Those who understood international trade and technology largely worked abroad often in oil, mining, construction, chemicals, shipping and banking; when they pointed out the scale of foreign competition were at best ignored.
I can imagine it is perfectly possible to spend upwards of 12 years in such a school and learn next to nothing. They are regarded as holding pens basically not places of learning.
‘But what he describes is tainted with the attitude, which my friends don’t have, that he’s been hard done by.’
This I think is an important point. The author uses the term, ‘working class,’ but there really is no working class now, at least not in any sense of the term that my grandparents would recognise. Too often now the term ‘working class’ is used as little more than a moral, ideological and political appeal. As an empty association with over romanticised, salt-of-the-earth horny handed sons of toil, done in by Fatcha. If you pay a mortgage, drive a car or go on overseas holidays then you are not working class in any classic sense. The class system is not self-cert.
Nowadays we have an underclass, an overclass, a comfortable class (largely made up of those who got the sweet end of the property market) and a coping class. The issue with the public sector strikes is I think not so much about pay restraint necessarily, rather that people who are in work and on wages that are far from low are now in a grisly place where they are coping rather than really comfortable. Whilst I have some sympathy, it’s hardly a condition unique to the public sector.
Almost certainly the UK would have seen some level of deindustrialisation with or without Thatcher. Would an alternative economy have been put in place by another PM? Maybe, maybe not. We’ll never know. My own deindustrialised home town did have new things come along at the right time, but it is hard to escape the feeling that was the result of good luck rather than good leadership by anyone.
What the coping class need is the stability that has gone. We saw this played out at the EU referendum where easy-living comfortable class types saw the EU as a playground and a source of tenants for the BTL. The coping class saw wage arbitrage and headaches. Sadly, as the article says, it’s probably too late for the underclass. But working class is a bygone age.
Plumbers, electricians, scaffolders, and mechanics are working cclass
My electrician is spending £18k on his daughter’s wedding (in Greece), and is greatly cheered up after discovering that one of his two offshore bank accounts will let him deposit the cash here and take it out there without charging a huge commission. How working class is that?
‘My electrician,’ that must be nice
The Electrician I Am Paying To Do Some Work For Me, if you prefer. See also: my GP, my Librarian etc
In all of your bad-faith responses, this is the worst. Grow up.
You do realise it’s illegal to do your own electrical work unless you’re a qualified sparky? So nearly everyone has someone they can call “my electrician.” Maybe you do your own dental work and hair cuts too?!
Your article has lazy Mackem written all over it. I’m reminded why the North East rivalry runs deeper than just football. My old man was right to tell me never to employ a Mackem. A Geordie would never have written such a poor me article.
The Electrician I Am Paying To Do Some Work For Me, if you prefer. See also: my GP, my Librarian etc
In all of your bad-faith responses, this is the worst. Grow up.
You do realise it’s illegal to do your own electrical work unless you’re a qualified sparky? So nearly everyone has someone they can call “my electrician.” Maybe you do your own dental work and hair cuts too?!
Your article has lazy Mackem written all over it. I’m reminded why the North East rivalry runs deeper than just football. My old man was right to tell me never to employ a Mackem. A Geordie would never have written such a poor me article.
Very.
That’s what I thought.
That’s what I thought.
But particular class membership is not just about income but education and culture.
So poorly paid employee of art gallery is middle class and your electrician is not….
‘My electrician,’ that must be nice
Very.
But particular class membership is not just about income but education and culture.
So poorly paid employee of art gallery is middle class and your electrician is not….
Otherwise known as “The salt of the earth”.
My electrician is spending £18k on his daughter’s wedding (in Greece), and is greatly cheered up after discovering that one of his two offshore bank accounts will let him deposit the cash here and take it out there without charging a huge commission. How working class is that?
Otherwise known as “The salt of the earth”.
Of course, the working class still exists, but as you suggest, split into 2,3, or even 4 different types now, but working class is still the overarching umbrella term for them all. The term is used to simplify debate, but there have always been huge income disparities and ambitions between those at both ends of the spectrum, exacerbated in many instances by where you live.
Plumbers, electricians, scaffolders, and mechanics are working cclass
Of course, the working class still exists, but as you suggest, split into 2,3, or even 4 different types now, but working class is still the overarching umbrella term for them all. The term is used to simplify debate, but there have always been huge income disparities and ambitions between those at both ends of the spectrum, exacerbated in many instances by where you live.
I was raised in County Durham at the same time as the author, going through the same state education system. I have been fortunate to move around the country to a few other places, deciding to return to County Durham over 20 years ago. That decision was based upon being able to have a quality of life not afforded to me elsewhere in the country. I still live and work there.
The picture the author paints, is one with which I am familiar. However, not one typical of the life lived by the majority of us Durham folks.
The title of the article “Durham has become a land of zombies” is a lazy one. It should more accurately be “Like elsewhere, parts of Durham are occupied by zombies”. The author appears to have spent more time in self pity rather than self reflection, caring only to present a case of victim hood. They have a book to sell, and I suspect want to sell it to others of an equal disposition. i.e. playing to their audience.
The reasons for industrial decline in some sectors and the growth of others is worthy of honest examination, and deserves a well balanced study. Unfortunately, having a chip on both shoulders does not qualify.
I agree the title was the only bit I didn’t write ✅
So you had to move away to find fame and fortune, just like the author and myself, but have now returned, for the cheaper housing, yet patronisingly accuse others of playing the victim, a very typical attitude of new money Durham FOLK!
To be fair, seems to me the author has not chosen to offer yet another nauseating account of how I made good by pulling up nonexistent bootstraps, loudly proclaiming their current elevated status due to a virtuous combination of talent and hard work – the ‘clever me’ syndrome by-passing teachers and other helpful facilitators on the way ‘up’.
I agree the title was the only bit I didn’t write ✅
So you had to move away to find fame and fortune, just like the author and myself, but have now returned, for the cheaper housing, yet patronisingly accuse others of playing the victim, a very typical attitude of new money Durham FOLK!
To be fair, seems to me the author has not chosen to offer yet another nauseating account of how I made good by pulling up nonexistent bootstraps, loudly proclaiming their current elevated status due to a virtuous combination of talent and hard work – the ‘clever me’ syndrome by-passing teachers and other helpful facilitators on the way ‘up’.
I would not normally bother to comment on a story like this yet felt compelled to. Last month I went on holiday to Edinburgh. I live in Coventry, so its a long drive. I therefore decided to stop the night at a hotel in Durham. Had this not been the case I would have read the above article and assumed it to be a dystopian hell hole. To call this piece a tissue of outright lies doesn’t even come close. I found Durham to be a beautiful city full of high end restaurants and independent shops. The city centre has fared far better than many others. A vast area of the waterside has been completely redeveloped with massive new buildings and public spaces. Had I not visited for myself I would never have realised just how twisted by hatred, self pity and the worst kind of class tribalism this “author” really is.
Policing is problematic in many places. Pockets of deprivation and poverty exist everywhere. Even the worst areas of Durham look like Knightsbridge compared to what I’ve seen in Blackpool and Coventry. It’s fascinating the lies some adults will tell themselves, in order to continue believing the prejudice and hatred they were immersed in as children. Deindustrialisation has happened all across the developed world. More manufacturing jobs were lost under Blair than Thatcher. She may be a tempting hate figure, but you’d have to be fundamentally dishonest to pretend that these inevitable changes would not have happened under any government, just as they did in every other western economy.
The author unintentionally reveals the problem himself. He was brought up in a community that did not value education, that saw a life down the pit as not just inevitable but desirable. You can scream into the void, longing for a rose tinted past that never existed all you like. No leader can uninvent online shopping, close supermarkets or bring back the butcher, baker and iron monger. Let alone make coal production remotely relevant or profitable.
Quote: “A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields. Once coal was discovered, the villages were built immediately” No one has the right to route themselves and every future generation to the spot, then demand that high paying work be provided to them as a matter of entitlement. To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…
Adam, the only credence I would give the author is that they are most likely describing one of the villages in the former East Durham coal fields, though I have noted it is unnamed. Durham City is a grand place, and there are many fine towns in the county where a good and prosperous life can be had. Why folks who have been “left behind” are still in a disadvantaged position is worthy of discussion and action. As you have already said “The author unintentionally reveals the problem himself.” I don’t suspect their book will provide any answers.
Anyone familiar with the area will tell you that Durham city, with its cathedral and ivory league university, is a world away from the former pit villages described by the author.
“No leader can uninvent online shopping, close supermarkets or bring back the butcher, baker and ironmonger. Let alone make coal production remotely relevant or profitable” Why not ?
“To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…” Many did this in the 80s, but can’t now, due to the high cost of housing. Plenty of Southerners moving up here though for the cheap housing.
“Why not?” Is this sarcasm? What exactly are you proposing? Should we ban internet access? Tax online shopping out of existence? Tax everyone the better to subsidise loss making mines, so they can produce an environmentally destructive product for which there is no market? Selfish and entitled don’t even cover it. What you are basically saying is “Stop the world I want to get off”. Good luck with that.
Oh, and claimants of housing benefit are about as mobile as it’s possible to get. I know people in this position who have moved hundreds of miles to find work.
“Why not?” Is this sarcasm? What exactly are you proposing? Should we ban internet access? Tax online shopping out of existence? Tax everyone the better to subsidise loss making mines, so they can produce an environmentally destructive product for which there is no market? Selfish and entitled don’t even cover it. What you are basically saying is “Stop the world I want to get off”. Good luck with that.
Oh, and claimants of housing benefit are about as mobile as it’s possible to get. I know people in this position who have moved hundreds of miles to find work.
He is talking about County Durham, which is a very different proposition, though why he didn’t make this clear I don’t know.
I understand that the city also has its issues, particularly the dominance of the university, over the rather small town itself.
Very glad to read your comment, as friends of mine have relocated to County Durham in the last year, and the picture painted by the author suggests they unwittingly moved into hell!
The other point I picked up, repeated in your final paragraph, was that ‘A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields.’ That is quite an admission, although he failed to realise it. The ‘work’ arrived in the area, followed by the people. Twas ever thus. Work then left the area when it was displaced by cheaper sources of the commodity being produced. Again, the pattern has been repeated for as long as human history has been recorded. The difference this time was that the workers did not leave. Perhaps because a basic pittance was provided to avoid mass starvation, which is what has always threatened the unemployed before?
This isn’t an argument to remove, reduce or time-limit help for the unemployed: heaven forbid! But it is a request for recognition that ‘the dole’ is not, ever, enough for a meaningful life. Margaret Thatcher didn’t make the coal mines unsustainable, or Britain’s other heavy industries. Maybe the unions had a hand in that; certainly, lousy management and a complacent expectation that British goods would always have a ready market were largely to blame. But the Thatcher government WAS responsible for the abrupt closures, and the total lack of suitable alternative employment, in Co. Durham as well as for, say, Corby’s transplanted Scottish steelworkers. These communities, to a greater or lesser extent, are still blighted by the experience almost two generations on.
Adam, the only credence I would give the author is that they are most likely describing one of the villages in the former East Durham coal fields, though I have noted it is unnamed. Durham City is a grand place, and there are many fine towns in the county where a good and prosperous life can be had. Why folks who have been “left behind” are still in a disadvantaged position is worthy of discussion and action. As you have already said “The author unintentionally reveals the problem himself.” I don’t suspect their book will provide any answers.
Anyone familiar with the area will tell you that Durham city, with its cathedral and ivory league university, is a world away from the former pit villages described by the author.
“No leader can uninvent online shopping, close supermarkets or bring back the butcher, baker and ironmonger. Let alone make coal production remotely relevant or profitable” Why not ?
“To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…” Many did this in the 80s, but can’t now, due to the high cost of housing. Plenty of Southerners moving up here though for the cheap housing.
He is talking about County Durham, which is a very different proposition, though why he didn’t make this clear I don’t know.
I understand that the city also has its issues, particularly the dominance of the university, over the rather small town itself.
Very glad to read your comment, as friends of mine have relocated to County Durham in the last year, and the picture painted by the author suggests they unwittingly moved into hell!
The other point I picked up, repeated in your final paragraph, was that ‘A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields.’ That is quite an admission, although he failed to realise it. The ‘work’ arrived in the area, followed by the people. Twas ever thus. Work then left the area when it was displaced by cheaper sources of the commodity being produced. Again, the pattern has been repeated for as long as human history has been recorded. The difference this time was that the workers did not leave. Perhaps because a basic pittance was provided to avoid mass starvation, which is what has always threatened the unemployed before?
This isn’t an argument to remove, reduce or time-limit help for the unemployed: heaven forbid! But it is a request for recognition that ‘the dole’ is not, ever, enough for a meaningful life. Margaret Thatcher didn’t make the coal mines unsustainable, or Britain’s other heavy industries. Maybe the unions had a hand in that; certainly, lousy management and a complacent expectation that British goods would always have a ready market were largely to blame. But the Thatcher government WAS responsible for the abrupt closures, and the total lack of suitable alternative employment, in Co. Durham as well as for, say, Corby’s transplanted Scottish steelworkers. These communities, to a greater or lesser extent, are still blighted by the experience almost two generations on.
You are wrong, these large pockets of deprivation ARE the worst in in the UK. The figures are sourced and are in the book. I have spent four years on this book and unlike yourself I am very careful what I say. The title of the article (which is Unherd’s contribution) is I agree unfortunate as it is only certain parts of Country Durham that are in this state! Buy the book and try and get past the cover, it might serve you well
As I pointed out above:
Quote: “A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields. Once coal was discovered, the villages were built immediately” No one has the right to route themselves and every future generation to the spot, then demand that high paying work be provided to them as a matter of entitlement. To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…
Your ancestors did exactly this. Ask yourself, where did they come from? Why did they move? What would their lives have been like had they sat on their backsides, moaning that a long dead leader had not brought paid work to their front door?
PS: I have lived in Jaywick near Clacton on Sea. I’ll know exactly what poverty looks like. Jaywick is the worst of the worst. Far poorer, than the poorest pit village. Growing up poor is not a choice. Sitting around wallowing in self pity is. You are the people you surround yourself with.
The worst district in terms of deprivation in the whole of the country (England, not the UK) is actually situated in the town in live in. So YOU are wrong, and i’m very careful what i write, rather than basing my words on outright prejudice and distortions.
The English Indices of Deprivation 2019 (IoD2019)
Statistical Release
“The most deprived neighbourhood in England according to the IMD2019 is to the east of the Jaywick area of Clacton on Sea (Tendring 018a). This area was also ranked as the most deprived nationally according to the IMD2015 and IMD2010. Neighbourhoods in Blackpool then account for eight of the ten most deprived neighbourhoods nationally, with the Anfield area in the centre of Liverpool (Liverpool 019C) making up the ten most deprived areas in England”
Neighbourhoods, districts, counties, areas. We can split the stats anyway you like. Quibbling over irrelevant detail and competing in the oppression Olympics, it does nothing to change my original point. If there is no work where you live. Move your backside and find some.
I grew up in a town with a large population of first-generation Muslim migrants. They had far fewer advantages than the people of County Durham. Most had arrived with little more than the clothes they stood up in. They lived in the worst part of town, often two or more families sharing one house. They had no education, barely spoke a word of English and were bullied and rejected by everyone. For 30 years they lived like crap and worked like dogs. They now live in big houses, in the better parts of town, behind wrought iron gates. Most have block-paved drives and a couple of Mercs parked outside.
Meanwhile the same entitled and resentful locals walk past sniping about dam foreigners coming over here, taking all our housing. That or inferring some kind of tax fraud was involved. Not once does it occur to them, that perhaps this is an example to emulate. It’s always easier to blame everyone else for your own shortcomings…
The English Indices of Deprivation 2019 (IoD2019)
Statistical Release
“The most deprived neighbourhood in England according to the IMD2019 is to the east of the Jaywick area of Clacton on Sea (Tendring 018a). This area was also ranked as the most deprived nationally according to the IMD2015 and IMD2010. Neighbourhoods in Blackpool then account for eight of the ten most deprived neighbourhoods nationally, with the Anfield area in the centre of Liverpool (Liverpool 019C) making up the ten most deprived areas in England”
Neighbourhoods, districts, counties, areas. We can split the stats anyway you like. Quibbling over irrelevant detail and competing in the oppression Olympics, it does nothing to change my original point. If there is no work where you live. Move your backside and find some.
I grew up in a town with a large population of first-generation Muslim migrants. They had far fewer advantages than the people of County Durham. Most had arrived with little more than the clothes they stood up in. They lived in the worst part of town, often two or more families sharing one house. They had no education, barely spoke a word of English and were bullied and rejected by everyone. For 30 years they lived like crap and worked like dogs. They now live in big houses, in the better parts of town, behind wrought iron gates. Most have block-paved drives and a couple of Mercs parked outside.
Meanwhile the same entitled and resentful locals walk past sniping about dam foreigners coming over here, taking all our housing. That or inferring some kind of tax fraud was involved. Not once does it occur to them, that perhaps this is an example to emulate. It’s always easier to blame everyone else for your own shortcomings…
You write as I heard my dad speak – I could hear the language that my dad spoke – he was from Durham, my mam from Yorkshire- we emigrated to Australia in 1965- but to hear him in written ‘standard English’ – I am back there and see, feel, know the loss- the heart and soul that was ripped out of community, place, being
and the pain
of that wound,
raw, angry, gnawing
and yet
My dad
My dad
was a survivor
he knew
education
for us
as for you
and us all
a way to
connect with others
no wonder they’re
so scared of
people coming together
we might just
make a difference
Your family emigrated to Australia in 1965, you say? If so, how did your father experience that loss, which happened twenty years later?
Your family emigrated to Australia in 1965, you say? If so, how did your father experience that loss, which happened twenty years later?
I tend to see both sides of the argument going on here, but if your statistics are as accurate as I presume they are then there is certainly a case that your neighbourhood (obviously not Durham City) can claim to be experiencing the extreme end of unforgivable deprivation. When the police won’t come to a burglary and the roads are full of potholes then perhaps your next crusade should be an entirely justifiable tax strike. Why pay for what you do not receive?
As I pointed out above:
Quote: “A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields. Once coal was discovered, the villages were built immediately” No one has the right to route themselves and every future generation to the spot, then demand that high paying work be provided to them as a matter of entitlement. To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…
Your ancestors did exactly this. Ask yourself, where did they come from? Why did they move? What would their lives have been like had they sat on their backsides, moaning that a long dead leader had not brought paid work to their front door?
PS: I have lived in Jaywick near Clacton on Sea. I’ll know exactly what poverty looks like. Jaywick is the worst of the worst. Far poorer, than the poorest pit village. Growing up poor is not a choice. Sitting around wallowing in self pity is. You are the people you surround yourself with.
The worst district in terms of deprivation in the whole of the country (England, not the UK) is actually situated in the town in live in. So YOU are wrong, and i’m very careful what i write, rather than basing my words on outright prejudice and distortions.
You write as I heard my dad speak – I could hear the language that my dad spoke – he was from Durham, my mam from Yorkshire- we emigrated to Australia in 1965- but to hear him in written ‘standard English’ – I am back there and see, feel, know the loss- the heart and soul that was ripped out of community, place, being
and the pain
of that wound,
raw, angry, gnawing
and yet
My dad
My dad
was a survivor
he knew
education
for us
as for you
and us all
a way to
connect with others
no wonder they’re
so scared of
people coming together
we might just
make a difference
I tend to see both sides of the argument going on here, but if your statistics are as accurate as I presume they are then there is certainly a case that your neighbourhood (obviously not Durham City) can claim to be experiencing the extreme end of unforgivable deprivation. When the police won’t come to a burglary and the roads are full of potholes then perhaps your next crusade should be an entirely justifiable tax strike. Why pay for what you do not receive?
As a natal Northumbrian I can sympathise with much of what the writer says. But northerners do often need to be reminded that not everything that’s wrong is the fault of those b@stards down south.
Sure, Thatcher played a part in promoting the over-centralisation and destruction of local democracy that has caused these problems – but so too has the passivity, fatalism and lack of entrepreneurial energy of the population.
To be fair to the author, since he’s 57 and left school in 1982, he probably didn’t crack year 12. I teach trade & post-trade electrical and all my students have done Y12, and I have heaps of borderline illiterates in my classes. I suspect the education trends in the UK are similar to Australia, so it’s perfectly imaginable that too many youngsters in both countries get a rubbish education in wreading and righting.
The idea that Tony Blair (a Thatcherite) would have been at all bothered is laughable.
I went to a really bad comprehensive growing up with a young single mother on an extremely rough council estate during the 1980s. I still find it pretty hard to describe what went on there, especially to people who went to good schools. Learning pretty much goes out the window when you are getting sucker-punched from behind by the class sadist, or a mental-case attempts to stab you in the eye with a soldering iron, or a group of lads are stamping on your face just for fun. The borstal depicted in the 1970s film Scum was only marginally worse than the school I attended.
Despite earning a doctorate degree and starting my own business, that place left an indelible mark on me: a kind of watchful paranoia that never goes away. The one good thing that came out of that experience was that it taught me how to fight.
‘But what he describes is tainted with the attitude, which my friends don’t have, that he’s been hard done by.’
This I think is an important point. The author uses the term, ‘working class,’ but there really is no working class now, at least not in any sense of the term that my grandparents would recognise. Too often now the term ‘working class’ is used as little more than a moral, ideological and political appeal. As an empty association with over romanticised, salt-of-the-earth horny handed sons of toil, done in by Fatcha. If you pay a mortgage, drive a car or go on overseas holidays then you are not working class in any classic sense. The class system is not self-cert.
Nowadays we have an underclass, an overclass, a comfortable class (largely made up of those who got the sweet end of the property market) and a coping class. The issue with the public sector strikes is I think not so much about pay restraint necessarily, rather that people who are in work and on wages that are far from low are now in a grisly place where they are coping rather than really comfortable. Whilst I have some sympathy, it’s hardly a condition unique to the public sector.
Almost certainly the UK would have seen some level of deindustrialisation with or without Thatcher. Would an alternative economy have been put in place by another PM? Maybe, maybe not. We’ll never know. My own deindustrialised home town did have new things come along at the right time, but it is hard to escape the feeling that was the result of good luck rather than good leadership by anyone.
What the coping class need is the stability that has gone. We saw this played out at the EU referendum where easy-living comfortable class types saw the EU as a playground and a source of tenants for the BTL. The coping class saw wage arbitrage and headaches. Sadly, as the article says, it’s probably too late for the underclass. But working class is a bygone age.
I was raised in County Durham at the same time as the author, going through the same state education system. I have been fortunate to move around the country to a few other places, deciding to return to County Durham over 20 years ago. That decision was based upon being able to have a quality of life not afforded to me elsewhere in the country. I still live and work there.
The picture the author paints, is one with which I am familiar. However, not one typical of the life lived by the majority of us Durham folks.
The title of the article “Durham has become a land of zombies” is a lazy one. It should more accurately be “Like elsewhere, parts of Durham are occupied by zombies”. The author appears to have spent more time in self pity rather than self reflection, caring only to present a case of victim hood. They have a book to sell, and I suspect want to sell it to others of an equal disposition. i.e. playing to their audience.
The reasons for industrial decline in some sectors and the growth of others is worthy of honest examination, and deserves a well balanced study. Unfortunately, having a chip on both shoulders does not qualify.
I would not normally bother to comment on a story like this yet felt compelled to. Last month I went on holiday to Edinburgh. I live in Coventry, so its a long drive. I therefore decided to stop the night at a hotel in Durham. Had this not been the case I would have read the above article and assumed it to be a dystopian hell hole. To call this piece a tissue of outright lies doesn’t even come close. I found Durham to be a beautiful city full of high end restaurants and independent shops. The city centre has fared far better than many others. A vast area of the waterside has been completely redeveloped with massive new buildings and public spaces. Had I not visited for myself I would never have realised just how twisted by hatred, self pity and the worst kind of class tribalism this “author” really is.
Policing is problematic in many places. Pockets of deprivation and poverty exist everywhere. Even the worst areas of Durham look like Knightsbridge compared to what I’ve seen in Blackpool and Coventry. It’s fascinating the lies some adults will tell themselves, in order to continue believing the prejudice and hatred they were immersed in as children. Deindustrialisation has happened all across the developed world. More manufacturing jobs were lost under Blair than Thatcher. She may be a tempting hate figure, but you’d have to be fundamentally dishonest to pretend that these inevitable changes would not have happened under any government, just as they did in every other western economy.
The author unintentionally reveals the problem himself. He was brought up in a community that did not value education, that saw a life down the pit as not just inevitable but desirable. You can scream into the void, longing for a rose tinted past that never existed all you like. No leader can uninvent online shopping, close supermarkets or bring back the butcher, baker and iron monger. Let alone make coal production remotely relevant or profitable.
Quote: “A little over 100 years ago there was nothing here; just fields. Once coal was discovered, the villages were built immediately” No one has the right to route themselves and every future generation to the spot, then demand that high paying work be provided to them as a matter of entitlement. To paraphrase one Norman Tebbit. If there are no jobs and no future “get on your bike” and move…
You are wrong, these large pockets of deprivation ARE the worst in in the UK. The figures are sourced and are in the book. I have spent four years on this book and unlike yourself I am very careful what I say. The title of the article (which is Unherd’s contribution) is I agree unfortunate as it is only certain parts of Country Durham that are in this state! Buy the book and try and get past the cover, it might serve you well
As a natal Northumbrian I can sympathise with much of what the writer says. But northerners do often need to be reminded that not everything that’s wrong is the fault of those b@stards down south.
Sure, Thatcher played a part in promoting the over-centralisation and destruction of local democracy that has caused these problems – but so too has the passivity, fatalism and lack of entrepreneurial energy of the population.
I was not taught anything at my comprehensive school that might have prevented me from going down the pit, on the contrary, I was only ever given the skills required for when I inevitably found myself at the bottom of that 1,500-foot shaft. As coal could not be cut by pen, it had been decided I and many around me should remain illiterate.
Absolute nonsense, i’m afraid. You don’t spend a minimum of twelve years at school being prevented from learning to read, especially if you’ve got a reasonably able brain. You don’t learn to read of your own volition, perhaps because your mates aren’t bothering, it’s not “the thing to do”. Blaming your own self-inflicted illiteracy on “the system” signifies an ingrained-from-birth attitude towards thinking the world owes you something; it doesn’t. This seeps out into much of the rest of the article.
I have friends who live in the area. There are, of course, social problems which he describes and if the book he’s had published is based around this narrative i’ve no doubt it’ll attract attention and sympathy. But what he describes is tainted with the attitude, which my friends don’t have, that he’s been hard done by. Lest any readers take pity, let me just say that the people i know who live in the area lead perfectly good and fruitful lives.
The pockets of poverty he describes exist in many, many other places in the western world, where once thriving industries have vanished. The Durham area is no worse off than any of them. That mightn’t be much consolation for those captured in a cycle of deprivation, but they can’t be regarded as being a ‘special case’ or the responsibility of any one factor (such as Thatcher) that the simplistic narrative in this article portrays. Let’s not forget, for instance, that Tony Blair was the MP for a small Durham town, Sedgefield from 1983-2007, pretty much the period this article is concerned with. If those problems were of such concern to his constituents, i think he’d have known about it; or perhaps he too was content to let the area he represented drift.
There is a lot in this essay one could easily take issue with, for example blaming Thatcher for railway privatisation (which is factually untrue), but the easiest one to focus on is this: you are blaming the state for your parents’ refusal to have you educated in basic literacy? Even in the 1980s over a decade of school was basically mandatory.
My old man was a coalminer. My mother was a ‘housewife’. Despite enjoying only rudimentary educations themselves, they made sure I could read before I even started infant school.
Same here, my dad bought us a set of children’s encyclopaedias by the week from the tallyman. Great investment!
We caught our daughter reading Jane Eyre under the covers very late one night when she was eight.
Same here, my dad bought us a set of children’s encyclopaedias by the week from the tallyman. Great investment!
We caught our daughter reading Jane Eyre under the covers very late one night when she was eight.
My old man was a coalminer. My mother was a ‘housewife’. Despite enjoying only rudimentary educations themselves, they made sure I could read before I even started infant school.
There is a lot in this essay one could easily take issue with, for example blaming Thatcher for railway privatisation (which is factually untrue), but the easiest one to focus on is this: you are blaming the state for your parents’ refusal to have you educated in basic literacy? Even in the 1980s over a decade of school was basically mandatory.
As per the picture, the trouble with hate is that it rots the soul and twists the mind. There can therefore never be a recognition of precisely why Thatcher acted the way that she did, the damage that socialism has done, across the world, and the catastrophic effects of union power on this country.
There is no mention of Arthur Scargill and his refusal to compromise.
or the fact that Harold Wilson closed more mines than Margaret Thatcher.
Or the fact that, when mines closed under Wilson, there were other jobs to go to, cleaner, safer, and in many cases, better paid. Most of the mines that closed were exhausted of coal, and most miners were happy to leave and work in a factory, in 1984, especially in the North East, this wasn’t the case. The fact the unions in the 60s allowed mines to close, also dispels the myth, that the unions were unreasonable, and stuck in the past, reluctant to embrace change. Get your facts right!
In the 1960s the NUM was run by Joe Gormley who warned of the danger of the minings electing Arthur Scargill; he was correct.
The NCB could have been changed into an international mining company such as British Gas if it had been run by people who understood international trade and technology.
In the 1960s the NUM was run by Joe Gormley who warned of the danger of the minings electing Arthur Scargill; he was correct.
The NCB could have been changed into an international mining company such as British Gas if it had been run by people who understood international trade and technology.
Or the fact that, when mines closed under Wilson, there were other jobs to go to, cleaner, safer, and in many cases, better paid. Most of the mines that closed were exhausted of coal, and most miners were happy to leave and work in a factory, in 1984, especially in the North East, this wasn’t the case. The fact the unions in the 60s allowed mines to close, also dispels the myth, that the unions were unreasonable, and stuck in the past, reluctant to embrace change. Get your facts right!
Indeed. The Miner’s Strike was really an attempt to oust the government; trade issues were very much secondary. The government fought back accordingly, having learned the lessons from Heath’s humiliation, and was the better prepared.
or the fact that Harold Wilson closed more mines than Margaret Thatcher.
Indeed. The Miner’s Strike was really an attempt to oust the government; trade issues were very much secondary. The government fought back accordingly, having learned the lessons from Heath’s humiliation, and was the better prepared.
That’s what says in the book!
Capitalism has done, and is doing, terrible damage across the world. Not least to the world itself.
It has failed, just as socialism did.
Britain in the 2020’s is even drearier than the trade union Britain of the 1970’s.
Real Socialism has never been tried in the UK, so I can’t see how you can say it failed. The nearest thing we’ve had to it was the period 1955-75, and you won’t find many working-class people who lived through that period who would deny that it was a fantastic time of social improvement on many fronts
It is a shame your comment got only down votes. I was born in South London in 1955 and remember that period as generally very good. Most of my school friends lived in good quality council housing on well managed estates with very little crime or vandalism. There was hardly any homelessness.
I attended a well run comprehensive that got plenty of investment. We had a fully equipped theatre and I had riding lessons as a sport option. My teachers took full advantage of the many free art galleries and museums in London. They also regularly took us to the theatre – I saw Olivier, Plowright, Alan Bates, Ian McKellen, Diana Rigg, Vanessa Redgrave on the London stage for free.
I went to university for free all expenses paid. Of course nothing is free and the tax payer provided my education.
I am well aware that as a boomer I belong to the luckiest generation.
When I left school there were plenty of jobs to be had.
My friend left school at 15 with no qualifications but easily found work as a receptionist and remembers being able to leave one job in the morning and find another in the afternoon.
Boys at my school found work on building sites in the long summer holidays during the 70s London building boom and made a killing. Many of them arrived at school in the cars they had bought with their holiday wages.
Of course it could not last. In many ways we were living in a fool’s paradise and Thatcher was a necessary corrective. But for a while life was good. Plenty of jobs, a good education to be had for those willing to put in the effort, decent free health care and well managed public housing. Very little real poverty or deprivation.
I knew a widow with three primary age children who lived in a council flat and managed well enough working as a playground assistant in term time and looking after my sister and I in the school holidays. Nobody in her household went hungry or was in any way deprived. She was exactly the kind of person – decent, law abiding, hard working – that council housing was intended for.
We never needed to run a car because London public transport was affordable, plentiful and reliable.
Most important of all my parents were able to buy a lovely semi-detached 3 bed in a leafy road in 1966 on very modest incomes. That house proved a gold mine for our family.
It was recently put up for sale in a rather dilapidated condition and the asking price was a little shy of a million pounds and I couldn’t help noticing that what were once very nice houses on either side have had extra floors added and are now really unsightly but no doubt making a fortune for their owners.
It is a shame your comment got only down votes. I was born in South London in 1955 and remember that period as generally very good. Most of my school friends lived in good quality council housing on well managed estates with very little crime or vandalism. There was hardly any homelessness.
I attended a well run comprehensive that got plenty of investment. We had a fully equipped theatre and I had riding lessons as a sport option. My teachers took full advantage of the many free art galleries and museums in London. They also regularly took us to the theatre – I saw Olivier, Plowright, Alan Bates, Ian McKellen, Diana Rigg, Vanessa Redgrave on the London stage for free.
I went to university for free all expenses paid. Of course nothing is free and the tax payer provided my education.
I am well aware that as a boomer I belong to the luckiest generation.
When I left school there were plenty of jobs to be had.
My friend left school at 15 with no qualifications but easily found work as a receptionist and remembers being able to leave one job in the morning and find another in the afternoon.
Boys at my school found work on building sites in the long summer holidays during the 70s London building boom and made a killing. Many of them arrived at school in the cars they had bought with their holiday wages.
Of course it could not last. In many ways we were living in a fool’s paradise and Thatcher was a necessary corrective. But for a while life was good. Plenty of jobs, a good education to be had for those willing to put in the effort, decent free health care and well managed public housing. Very little real poverty or deprivation.
I knew a widow with three primary age children who lived in a council flat and managed well enough working as a playground assistant in term time and looking after my sister and I in the school holidays. Nobody in her household went hungry or was in any way deprived. She was exactly the kind of person – decent, law abiding, hard working – that council housing was intended for.
We never needed to run a car because London public transport was affordable, plentiful and reliable.
Most important of all my parents were able to buy a lovely semi-detached 3 bed in a leafy road in 1966 on very modest incomes. That house proved a gold mine for our family.
It was recently put up for sale in a rather dilapidated condition and the asking price was a little shy of a million pounds and I couldn’t help noticing that what were once very nice houses on either side have had extra floors added and are now really unsightly but no doubt making a fortune for their owners.
“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”
I second that.
Based on experience of socialism in first 27 years of my life.
I second that.
Based on experience of socialism in first 27 years of my life.
Real Socialism has never been tried in the UK, so I can’t see how you can say it failed. The nearest thing we’ve had to it was the period 1955-75, and you won’t find many working-class people who lived through that period who would deny that it was a fantastic time of social improvement on many fronts
“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”
There is no mention of Arthur Scargill and his refusal to compromise.
That’s what says in the book!
Capitalism has done, and is doing, terrible damage across the world. Not least to the world itself.
It has failed, just as socialism did.
Britain in the 2020’s is even drearier than the trade union Britain of the 1970’s.
As per the picture, the trouble with hate is that it rots the soul and twists the mind. There can therefore never be a recognition of precisely why Thatcher acted the way that she did, the damage that socialism has done, across the world, and the catastrophic effects of union power on this country.
I went to school in the 80’s with a friend who’s father was brought up in a Welsh mining town. His father wanted a different life and made the choice not to go down the mines, for this he was ostracized by his family and his community and never spoke to them again. I was brought up in a northern working class family who placed no value at all in education, especially for girls. To have any kind of aspiration was viewed as ‘getting too big for your boots’. What happens to people as children is not their fault but how they deal with it as adults is. Yes the community was devastated and it all happened very quickly but how long can you argue that your life was ruined because your father/grandfather lost his job. I sound harsh, but we all have choices. The community itself has to accept that it had some part to play in the outcome. It’s very sad.
It’s not just your father losing his job though is it. It’s thousands of fathers losing their jobs at the same time, which then has a knock on effect on almost every other business in the town putting thousands more out of work. It decimated entire areas, with absolutely no effort gone into replacing those jobs that were taken away
In which case “thousands of fathers losing their jobs at the same time” was a huge hint to move elsewhere and get jobs rather than expect the State to provide.
That’s very much it. However, some people have that ‘get-up-and-go’ mentality and others simply don’t. The idea of moving away from their hometown to a different location literally terrifies them. I now live in the rural US South. In my town there are people who’ve never seen the sea despite living only 40 miles away from the nearest beach. While poverty may be to blame, there is a certain kind of poverty thinking which is about the mental limitations people place on themselves. This mentality is also to be found in places like the article above describes: a kind of intellectual stagnation that leads to depression and other such disorders.
Such a great comparative example. You are right to highlight the idea of a poverty of thinking, which is most always also a poverty of aspiration. Life always has been a tough battle against circumstance for most people.
I disagree with your sentiment. My greatest regret of the current British system is that you are expected to move for work. What happened to place, family and community?
When the best and brightest of an area leaves, what remains?
When there are no suitable jobs for the best and brightest, what would be the point of remaining?
Lets all move to London then, and live in tents
Lets all move to London then, and live in tents
What is forgotten is that the great communities of the pit villages of the North East were created by families who moved from other parts of the country or Ireland. For the most part they were not local.
Their descendants now expect work to be brought to them. Some work was brought to the North East through subsidies and concessions such as the Nissan factory outside Sunderland but it is unrealistic to think every pit village could have attracted its own Nissan. The families needed to take a leaf out of their forefathers book and move to find work. Their forefathers had to leave communities behind that they probably would have preferred not to have done if the work could come to them.
I made the move North for work and have not regretted it. In my business one of the firms in Newcastle has grown to be one of the largest of its kind in the world dealing with an international clientele. It is not all gloom and doom in the North East.
Since Thatcher many have moved away to find work. Mnay of those who did were the more enlightened in those communities, exacerbating the situation due to a brain drain. Many young people now go to Uni and never return. Nevertheless, you can’t expect everyone to move away, house prices and rents in the places where the work is, won’t allow that.
Thanks for that, I live in Sunderland and work for an international company in County Durham.
I generally disagree with subsidies but implying the NE get more than elsewhere is a farce.
I speak to people daily with their own businesses who are struggling to hire in a worker driven market. The NE is not lacking business, it is lacking competency.
I went to University and in my final year rember speaking to people about jobs. “I have applied here, I have applied there” they would say, “Where are those companies” I would ask, no one even cared.
I have read about booms and revolutions where people would move for work but this for me is not and should not be the norm. This was about surving not about 20% more and a better night life.
Your third paragraph resonated with me. Competency is often the outcome of attitude.
A friend told me he employed foreign workers in his restaurants in and about Sunderland because they had both the right attitude and skills. I have experienced bizarre behaviour from native born staff in Sunderland restaurants that lack the basic skills of say an Italian waiter. That said one of the best places to eat good food at a very reasonable price in both Sunderland and Peterlee are at the catering College restaurants. I am not sure where the staff end up.
I am not certain what your next paragraph is saying. Were your fellow students applying for work locally or elsewhere and what did they not care about?
Why do you feel that it should not be the norm to move to where employment is rather than expect businesses to move to where you are? My youngest son was lucky to find a job ten minutes from where he lives but is equally prepared in order to secure career advancement to move elsewhere if that is needed. The idea fostered by Ronnie Chambers that everyone needs to move to London for work and live in tents is an absurdity.
Of course there have been periods in the past when economies were largely agrarian where families lived for centuries in the same small village but moving today is infinitely easier than in the past.
I was saying that rather than need to move for work, they simply have no notion of home. No predisposition to look for work near home.
Moving for me would be a last resort, I am not equally prepared but realistic. I don’t expect work to come to people, I just feel it fairly available.
I don’t know anything about you but I have conservative instincts. Similar distinctions have been drawn by many authors between, as David Goodhart put, Anywheres and Somewheres. I suspect I am far closer to the somewhere than you. Closer than most people perhaps.
Thanks for that clarification. I entirely understand a preference for staying where your friends, family and roots are but a lot of students deliberately chose to go to University to experience something different to their family surroundings and friends – to widen their experience and then move on to establish roots elsewhere.
As you say it is a matter of temperament. I was happy to uproot myself to move to the supposedly dismal North East whereas my wife would be reluctant to leave the North East even for the lure of the attractions of the more prosperous South.
What I think is an error is to expect employers and government to pander to the preference of those who want to stay. Such an expectation involves an element of narcissism. Employers might move their business to an area that had a pool of employees with the right attitude and willingness to acquire the relevant skills but that should not be an expectation. It is up to the stayers to make the establishment of local work attractive to potential employers. Nissan found enough employees with the right attitude, but the attitudes displayed in the areas described by the author can have little attraction to potential employers.The more they rail against Thatcher the less attractive they will seem.
I am afraid the world belongs to the anywhere people. My brother-in-law had a very successful career because he was willing to move across the country several times in order to better his situation.
I was just incredibly lucky to find work in one of the most beautiful parts of England and to be able to settle here because there are plenty of jobs to be had.
Back then house prices were sensible. I could never afford to live here now if I had not bought my house back then.
Thanks for that clarification. I entirely understand a preference for staying where your friends, family and roots are but a lot of students deliberately chose to go to University to experience something different to their family surroundings and friends – to widen their experience and then move on to establish roots elsewhere.
As you say it is a matter of temperament. I was happy to uproot myself to move to the supposedly dismal North East whereas my wife would be reluctant to leave the North East even for the lure of the attractions of the more prosperous South.
What I think is an error is to expect employers and government to pander to the preference of those who want to stay. Such an expectation involves an element of narcissism. Employers might move their business to an area that had a pool of employees with the right attitude and willingness to acquire the relevant skills but that should not be an expectation. It is up to the stayers to make the establishment of local work attractive to potential employers. Nissan found enough employees with the right attitude, but the attitudes displayed in the areas described by the author can have little attraction to potential employers.The more they rail against Thatcher the less attractive they will seem.
I am afraid the world belongs to the anywhere people. My brother-in-law had a very successful career because he was willing to move across the country several times in order to better his situation.
I was just incredibly lucky to find work in one of the most beautiful parts of England and to be able to settle here because there are plenty of jobs to be had.
Back then house prices were sensible. I could never afford to live here now if I had not bought my house back then.
It is better then to be an anywhere person than a somewhere person. Happy to up sticks and follow the work. Loyalty to one’s roots then seems a recipe for a wasted life.
I was saying that rather than need to move for work, they simply have no notion of home. No predisposition to look for work near home.
Moving for me would be a last resort, I am not equally prepared but realistic. I don’t expect work to come to people, I just feel it fairly available.
I don’t know anything about you but I have conservative instincts. Similar distinctions have been drawn by many authors between, as David Goodhart put, Anywheres and Somewheres. I suspect I am far closer to the somewhere than you. Closer than most people perhaps.
It is better then to be an anywhere person than a somewhere person. Happy to up sticks and follow the work. Loyalty to one’s roots then seems a recipe for a wasted life.
Your third paragraph resonated with me. Competency is often the outcome of attitude.
A friend told me he employed foreign workers in his restaurants in and about Sunderland because they had both the right attitude and skills. I have experienced bizarre behaviour from native born staff in Sunderland restaurants that lack the basic skills of say an Italian waiter. That said one of the best places to eat good food at a very reasonable price in both Sunderland and Peterlee are at the catering College restaurants. I am not sure where the staff end up.
I am not certain what your next paragraph is saying. Were your fellow students applying for work locally or elsewhere and what did they not care about?
Why do you feel that it should not be the norm to move to where employment is rather than expect businesses to move to where you are? My youngest son was lucky to find a job ten minutes from where he lives but is equally prepared in order to secure career advancement to move elsewhere if that is needed. The idea fostered by Ronnie Chambers that everyone needs to move to London for work and live in tents is an absurdity.
Of course there have been periods in the past when economies were largely agrarian where families lived for centuries in the same small village but moving today is infinitely easier than in the past.
Since Thatcher many have moved away to find work. Mnay of those who did were the more enlightened in those communities, exacerbating the situation due to a brain drain. Many young people now go to Uni and never return. Nevertheless, you can’t expect everyone to move away, house prices and rents in the places where the work is, won’t allow that.
Thanks for that, I live in Sunderland and work for an international company in County Durham.
I generally disagree with subsidies but implying the NE get more than elsewhere is a farce.
I speak to people daily with their own businesses who are struggling to hire in a worker driven market. The NE is not lacking business, it is lacking competency.
I went to University and in my final year rember speaking to people about jobs. “I have applied here, I have applied there” they would say, “Where are those companies” I would ask, no one even cared.
I have read about booms and revolutions where people would move for work but this for me is not and should not be the norm. This was about surving not about 20% more and a better night life.
When there are no suitable jobs for the best and brightest, what would be the point of remaining?
What is forgotten is that the great communities of the pit villages of the North East were created by families who moved from other parts of the country or Ireland. For the most part they were not local.
Their descendants now expect work to be brought to them. Some work was brought to the North East through subsidies and concessions such as the Nissan factory outside Sunderland but it is unrealistic to think every pit village could have attracted its own Nissan. The families needed to take a leaf out of their forefathers book and move to find work. Their forefathers had to leave communities behind that they probably would have preferred not to have done if the work could come to them.
I made the move North for work and have not regretted it. In my business one of the firms in Newcastle has grown to be one of the largest of its kind in the world dealing with an international clientele. It is not all gloom and doom in the North East.
I disagree with your sentiment. My greatest regret of the current British system is that you are expected to move for work. What happened to place, family and community?
When the best and brightest of an area leaves, what remains?
Mental disorders are even commoner in places like London that are full of “get up & go” people.
I’d say London contains a majority of people with no hope and dead-end jobs. The fortunate few are just that – fortunate.
I’d say London contains a majority of people with no hope and dead-end jobs. The fortunate few are just that – fortunate.
True, some of those problems existed in mining areas even when the mines were going at full throttle and there was full employment. Mining was brutal and made many people behave in a certain way, different from almost every other type of worker. However, being able to work was the crux of the matter, and people generally just bobbed along from day to day. Being unable to work, exacerbated those problems, and the house of cards came crashing down, in these once self-sufficient communities.
Such a great comparative example. You are right to highlight the idea of a poverty of thinking, which is most always also a poverty of aspiration. Life always has been a tough battle against circumstance for most people.
Mental disorders are even commoner in places like London that are full of “get up & go” people.
True, some of those problems existed in mining areas even when the mines were going at full throttle and there was full employment. Mining was brutal and made many people behave in a certain way, different from almost every other type of worker. However, being able to work was the crux of the matter, and people generally just bobbed along from day to day. Being unable to work, exacerbated those problems, and the house of cards came crashing down, in these once self-sufficient communities.
You are eager to destroy towns and communities.
Capitalism hasn’t brought new life to the area. It never will.
Should Durham be depopulated then ?
Towns and communities arise from the people in them. If the people within them are affected by lack of employment and opportunities (as laid out in the article) then the towns and communities lose their original reason for being.
Can the towns and communities reinvent themselves? It’s been done, but not by people content only to be discontented.
In County Durham, the powers that be realised this in the 1950s, when Labour controlled councils, packed with radical Socialist thinkers, implemented the much-maligned Category D policy, a policy of moving people out of ex-mining villages into New Towns with new housing and new jobs. It worked quite well. Where are the radical thinkers of today?. It can be done, could be done if modern-day politicians with no real understanding of what its like to live on the other side of the tracks experience, weren’t obsessed with lining their own pockets
In County Durham, the powers that be realised this in the 1950s, when Labour controlled councils, packed with radical Socialist thinkers, implemented the much-maligned Category D policy, a policy of moving people out of ex-mining villages into New Towns with new housing and new jobs. It worked quite well. Where are the radical thinkers of today?. It can be done, could be done if modern-day politicians with no real understanding of what its like to live on the other side of the tracks experience, weren’t obsessed with lining their own pockets
That does seem to be the consensus on here. Which means that the place where the author lives and others like it would presumably end up as deserted ghost towns and eventually be reclaimed by the wilderness which has happened to certain parts of Detroit which are now empty of people and rapidly turning back into prairie and becoming home to cougars, wolves, coyotes and black bears.
I think it really is a tragedy that communities are destroyed this way but it has always been the way of things – go where the work is or stagnate.
Towns and communities arise from the people in them. If the people within them are affected by lack of employment and opportunities (as laid out in the article) then the towns and communities lose their original reason for being.
Can the towns and communities reinvent themselves? It’s been done, but not by people content only to be discontented.
That does seem to be the consensus on here. Which means that the place where the author lives and others like it would presumably end up as deserted ghost towns and eventually be reclaimed by the wilderness which has happened to certain parts of Detroit which are now empty of people and rapidly turning back into prairie and becoming home to cougars, wolves, coyotes and black bears.
I think it really is a tragedy that communities are destroyed this way but it has always been the way of things – go where the work is or stagnate.
That’s very much it. However, some people have that ‘get-up-and-go’ mentality and others simply don’t. The idea of moving away from their hometown to a different location literally terrifies them. I now live in the rural US South. In my town there are people who’ve never seen the sea despite living only 40 miles away from the nearest beach. While poverty may be to blame, there is a certain kind of poverty thinking which is about the mental limitations people place on themselves. This mentality is also to be found in places like the article above describes: a kind of intellectual stagnation that leads to depression and other such disorders.
You are eager to destroy towns and communities.
Capitalism hasn’t brought new life to the area. It never will.
Should Durham be depopulated then ?
In which case “thousands of fathers losing their jobs at the same time” was a huge hint to move elsewhere and get jobs rather than expect the State to provide.
It’s not just your father losing his job though is it. It’s thousands of fathers losing their jobs at the same time, which then has a knock on effect on almost every other business in the town putting thousands more out of work. It decimated entire areas, with absolutely no effort gone into replacing those jobs that were taken away
I went to school in the 80’s with a friend who’s father was brought up in a Welsh mining town. His father wanted a different life and made the choice not to go down the mines, for this he was ostracized by his family and his community and never spoke to them again. I was brought up in a northern working class family who placed no value at all in education, especially for girls. To have any kind of aspiration was viewed as ‘getting too big for your boots’. What happens to people as children is not their fault but how they deal with it as adults is. Yes the community was devastated and it all happened very quickly but how long can you argue that your life was ruined because your father/grandfather lost his job. I sound harsh, but we all have choices. The community itself has to accept that it had some part to play in the outcome. It’s very sad.
This Pip (bet he wasnt called that at school!) is the real problem with the NE. I am a born and bred, still live here, NEasterner. He is a typical “i hate the pit but you closed it you swine wah wah its everyone’s fault but ours” type.
Despite “I’ve heard many so-called experts over the years say it is difficult to link the social depravation and high levels of crime directly to Thatcher’s deliberate policies of deindustrialisation. All I can conclude from this is that there is no such thing as an expert.” the economic fact was that Scargill and his commie b@tches made australian coal, floated at great expense across several oceans, more economic than the stuff dug 2 miles down the road. the miners closed the pits. same re the shipyards where relatives of mine worked in the 20s and 30s; old fashioned, high cost, always striking and delayed piles of you know what that no-one with a brain would ask to build a ship. they closed themselves.
But no, “then came Thatcher”. This guy is a joke. The bit about the Falklands and Thatcher “single-handedly taking back the Falkland Islands despite never pulling on a pair of boots or leaving London” sums him up: chippy as eff, low intellect, victim complex, needs an excuse, wants a handout, convinced that his sense of humour is incredible and unique. Oh yeah, its unique all right.
I cant wait to not buy the book.
PS it was his father and mother and his fault he didnt learn to read until he was 102 or whatever. not Thatcher’s. but if he wants to blame someone, between 65 and 79 (when he went to primary school and secondary) it was mostly Labour that was in charge: 4 labour governments no less. Go cry about them. And 96-2010?? Labour. wah wah! You’re an embarrassment to my people.
What a nitwit!
‘You’re an embarrassment to My people!’ Who are YOUR people? There can’t be another one like you!’ I say in the book I’m pleased the pits are gone! But best you don’t buy it
And your answers to his points as opposed to ad hominem statements?
And your answers to his points as opposed to ad hominem statements?
He was called Pip, were you called Charlie Two?
What a nitwit!
‘You’re an embarrassment to My people!’ Who are YOUR people? There can’t be another one like you!’ I say in the book I’m pleased the pits are gone! But best you don’t buy it
He was called Pip, were you called Charlie Two?
This Pip (bet he wasnt called that at school!) is the real problem with the NE. I am a born and bred, still live here, NEasterner. He is a typical “i hate the pit but you closed it you swine wah wah its everyone’s fault but ours” type.
Despite “I’ve heard many so-called experts over the years say it is difficult to link the social depravation and high levels of crime directly to Thatcher’s deliberate policies of deindustrialisation. All I can conclude from this is that there is no such thing as an expert.” the economic fact was that Scargill and his commie b@tches made australian coal, floated at great expense across several oceans, more economic than the stuff dug 2 miles down the road. the miners closed the pits. same re the shipyards where relatives of mine worked in the 20s and 30s; old fashioned, high cost, always striking and delayed piles of you know what that no-one with a brain would ask to build a ship. they closed themselves.
But no, “then came Thatcher”. This guy is a joke. The bit about the Falklands and Thatcher “single-handedly taking back the Falkland Islands despite never pulling on a pair of boots or leaving London” sums him up: chippy as eff, low intellect, victim complex, needs an excuse, wants a handout, convinced that his sense of humour is incredible and unique. Oh yeah, its unique all right.
I cant wait to not buy the book.
PS it was his father and mother and his fault he didnt learn to read until he was 102 or whatever. not Thatcher’s. but if he wants to blame someone, between 65 and 79 (when he went to primary school and secondary) it was mostly Labour that was in charge: 4 labour governments no less. Go cry about them. And 96-2010?? Labour. wah wah! You’re an embarrassment to my people.
Probably the biggest factor involved in failing to learn in the classroom is attitude towards education. If the parents don’t value education, neither will the children, which undermines the teacher and frequently results in unruly behaviour in the classroom. Teachers have virtually no power in the classroom so without respect their job becomes impossible. Parental support is generally required if a child is to learn to read. Children of many immigrants not only learn to read at school but have to learn to speak English first. It would have been interesting if the author had provided a proper analysis of his failure at school. Maybe he could help those children he sees who are now failing at school. Maybe he could teach them the value of education or teach some children to read.
Exactly. The author doesn’t explain how children of, say, Chinese descent do so well inspite of the fact that, in many cases, their parents don’t speak English and the alphabet we use isn’t familiar to them. At worst it’s a pathetic whine.
So far as industrial decline is concerned, look north to Clydebank and the farce surrounding the construction of the QE2 at John Brown. Constant disruption by 30-40 unions ensured that it was the last ship of any size to be built there. This was the 1960s before anyone knew who Thatcher was.
The Chinese couple who ran the local fish and chip shop (best in town – shame they retired) had a son who went to Oxford and a daughter who went to Cambridge. The parents’ English was pretty good but not quite fluent. The son and daughter helped sell fish and chips during the holidays.
There are always exceptions to the rule, and the fact these children had parents prepared to move to better themselves gives them a good start in life. How many children stuck in China make something of themselves? Probably many experiencing the same poverty British mining families experienced 100 years ago. The Chinese do seem to have a high worker work ethic though, but then again so did the Geordie back in the day.
The Chinese couple who ran the local fish and chip shop (best in town – shame they retired) had a son who went to Oxford and a daughter who went to Cambridge. The parents’ English was pretty good but not quite fluent. The son and daughter helped sell fish and chips during the holidays.
There are always exceptions to the rule, and the fact these children had parents prepared to move to better themselves gives them a good start in life. How many children stuck in China make something of themselves? Probably many experiencing the same poverty British mining families experienced 100 years ago. The Chinese do seem to have a high worker work ethic though, but then again so did the Geordie back in the day.
You can thank the late, wretched, Anthony (Tony) Crosland, the destroyer of the Grammar Schools, for much of this.
Mercifully the ‘Reaper’ scythed him down at 58.
ps. This censorship is insane!
Labour damaged education in 1945 when they did not introduce the tripartite system- sec’ mods, technical and grammar and insisted on raising the leaving age. What should have taken place is leave school at 14 years of age but attend night school to study maths, english, science , etc relevant to job.If failed exams have to retake them. Many children who do not want to be in school after the age of 14 years hinder the education of others.
Labour damaged education in 1945 when they did not introduce the tripartite system- sec’ mods, technical and grammar and insisted on raising the leaving age. What should have taken place is leave school at 14 years of age but attend night school to study maths, english, science , etc relevant to job.If failed exams have to retake them. Many children who do not want to be in school after the age of 14 years hinder the education of others.
Exactly. The author doesn’t explain how children of, say, Chinese descent do so well inspite of the fact that, in many cases, their parents don’t speak English and the alphabet we use isn’t familiar to them. At worst it’s a pathetic whine.
So far as industrial decline is concerned, look north to Clydebank and the farce surrounding the construction of the QE2 at John Brown. Constant disruption by 30-40 unions ensured that it was the last ship of any size to be built there. This was the 1960s before anyone knew who Thatcher was.
You can thank the late, wretched, Anthony (Tony) Crosland, the destroyer of the Grammar Schools, for much of this.
Mercifully the ‘Reaper’ scythed him down at 58.
ps. This censorship is insane!
Probably the biggest factor involved in failing to learn in the classroom is attitude towards education. If the parents don’t value education, neither will the children, which undermines the teacher and frequently results in unruly behaviour in the classroom. Teachers have virtually no power in the classroom so without respect their job becomes impossible. Parental support is generally required if a child is to learn to read. Children of many immigrants not only learn to read at school but have to learn to speak English first. It would have been interesting if the author had provided a proper analysis of his failure at school. Maybe he could help those children he sees who are now failing at school. Maybe he could teach them the value of education or teach some children to read.
Seriously? In about ten years of free, compulsory state education no-one tried to teach you to read? I’m also working class and don’t remember anything like what you’ve described.
The glories of a socialist education system staffed by socialist teachers
He’s clearly lying. The neutral passive gives him away.
????? Please explain
????? Please explain
There are thousands of us in County Durham. Fact! There were even less opportunities for the females. Domestic science
By whom? Did the mine manager tell the local headmaster ‘don’t teach boys to read’? Did Thatcher tell her Minister of Education to do this?
By whom? Did the mine manager tell the local headmaster ‘don’t teach boys to read’? Did Thatcher tell her Minister of Education to do this?
The glories of a socialist education system staffed by socialist teachers
He’s clearly lying. The neutral passive gives him away.
There are thousands of us in County Durham. Fact! There were even less opportunities for the females. Domestic science
Seriously? In about ten years of free, compulsory state education no-one tried to teach you to read? I’m also working class and don’t remember anything like what you’ve described.
While I’m sure we can blame Thatcher till the cows come home, the facts are that she left office well over 30 years ago and that these industries were in decline before hand. Harold Wilson after all closed more mines than Thatcher did.
If what the author said is true of how far his community has fallen, it’s quite staggering that the remaining residents haven’t resorted to vigilantism (ironically, the Police would probably be on that very quickly) or that some hard right party hasn’t stepped in to take advantage of this in one form or another.
It’s not just that industries were in decline, some of which (but not all) were inevitable with the cost saving efficiencies of globalisation. There was zero transition to new economies – the rust belt in the USA is similar, now drug and gang filled in similarly alarming ways (as told to me by two young men who jacked a car and drove west who I paid for a summer and let live in my place). In my separate post (still being mediated) I give two of probably 30 examples of the destructive societal impact of Thatcherism… so many here on Unherd opine about lost values and the old ways – your own heroine was the figurehead of that decline
The point regarding zero transition is fair but while something should have been done, I don’t think it is obvious what.
There were reforms in education but they don’t seem to have achieved much, in fact, arguably with education such a political football and higher education such a pyramid scheme, maybe it’s worse.
Like any government there was success and failure and the extent to which we can judge these through the eyes of the people at that time is limited.
Moreover, I think that the difficulties we are encountering now may have been less had some Thatcherite policies been in place. Less debt, fewer zombie businesses, fewer people on out of work benefits. I don’t expect you to agree but life could have been worse had the policies not been enacted
Are there examples of countries that planned deindustrialisation in the traditional manufacturing areas? That co-operated with the unions in introducing new industries in a coordinated fashion to pace the decline and directly replace the old jobs lost?
Yes, I know, I visited some of them as part of my research whist writing the book. Thatcher was not unfortunately that civilised.
Which were the countries that did that?
Which were the countries that did that?
Germany, well it would have to be, wouldn’t it? bloody good at everything those buggers. And they had to do it at the same time as taking on a new country in East Germany, imagine the scale of transformation?, yet they were largely successful in integrating the former GDR into West Germany.
Germany achieved great things with its excellent partnership between business and unions which encouraged and enabled modernisation without conflict, and its once burgeoning mittelstand. But these advantages are waning with increasing militancy from an insecure and underpaid workforce, and the accelerating collapse of small and medium businesses. With a housing crisis not dissimilar to ours and with food inflation higher than ours things are no longer sweet. Now with no more cheap Russian gas (thanks to the US who wish to replace it with their own more expensive liquified gas), and decline in trade with China (once again in no small part thanks to restrictive US policy) they face deindustrialisation on a scale they have so far avoided. Let’s see how they get on.
Between 1948 and 1963, there were no restrictions on industry : the unions were crafts ones who could read balance sheets and pay was based upon profits not overtime; there were no demarcation disputes, wild cat strikes, secondary picketing, POETS Days, Spanish Practices or protection of shoddy workers;unions supported new technology and upgrading of skills and education. Education was biased towards applied science and engineering while Fraunhofer Institutes undertook comercial research. People readily acepted being educated to one or two levels above which they worked. Compare the level of maths, science and engineering of people entering un, semi and skilled work with that of Britain. Quality underpinned German thinking, not what can I gety away with?
There was no massive drain of talent to overseas work from craftsmen to professors of science and engineering. The talent which causes a nation to rise may only be 15 to 25% of the population so a slight reduction greatly reduces development.
The unions of Britain were dom inated Britain were un and semi skilled which wanted to keep full employment at the expense of introducing new technology, upgrading skills and moving from low to advanced manufacturing which would have meant losing members to craft unions. In addition, they ignored the end of the British Empire, the closure of the Suez Canal, the opening up of vast open cast mines producing coal, iron ore, copper ore, bauxite and the emergence of Germany, Japan and S Korea. The mines used excavators built in Germany whose buckets were the size of houses. Japan and S korea were constructing larger ships ( capable of carrying 100sK T of oil, ores and grains ), cheaper with shorter delivery times and less faults. The Wear mainly constructed merchant ships. Dock strikes slowed imports and exports and resulted in damge to goods. Shipbuilding was a major buyer of steel which bought coal for coking.
.
Between 1948 and 1963, there were no restrictions on industry : the unions were crafts ones who could read balance sheets and pay was based upon profits not overtime; there were no demarcation disputes, wild cat strikes, secondary picketing, POETS Days, Spanish Practices or protection of shoddy workers;unions supported new technology and upgrading of skills and education. Education was biased towards applied science and engineering while Fraunhofer Institutes undertook comercial research. People readily acepted being educated to one or two levels above which they worked. Compare the level of maths, science and engineering of people entering un, semi and skilled work with that of Britain. Quality underpinned German thinking, not what can I gety away with?
There was no massive drain of talent to overseas work from craftsmen to professors of science and engineering. The talent which causes a nation to rise may only be 15 to 25% of the population so a slight reduction greatly reduces development.
The unions of Britain were dom inated Britain were un and semi skilled which wanted to keep full employment at the expense of introducing new technology, upgrading skills and moving from low to advanced manufacturing which would have meant losing members to craft unions. In addition, they ignored the end of the British Empire, the closure of the Suez Canal, the opening up of vast open cast mines producing coal, iron ore, copper ore, bauxite and the emergence of Germany, Japan and S Korea. The mines used excavators built in Germany whose buckets were the size of houses. Japan and S korea were constructing larger ships ( capable of carrying 100sK T of oil, ores and grains ), cheaper with shorter delivery times and less faults. The Wear mainly constructed merchant ships. Dock strikes slowed imports and exports and resulted in damge to goods. Shipbuilding was a major buyer of steel which bought coal for coking.
.
Germany achieved great things with its excellent partnership between business and unions which encouraged and enabled modernisation without conflict, and its once burgeoning mittelstand. But these advantages are waning with increasing militancy from an insecure and underpaid workforce, and the accelerating collapse of small and medium businesses. With a housing crisis not dissimilar to ours and with food inflation higher than ours things are no longer sweet. Now with no more cheap Russian gas (thanks to the US who wish to replace it with their own more expensive liquified gas), and decline in trade with China (once again in no small part thanks to restrictive US policy) they face deindustrialisation on a scale they have so far avoided. Let’s see how they get on.
Yes, I know, I visited some of them as part of my research whist writing the book. Thatcher was not unfortunately that civilised.
Germany, well it would have to be, wouldn’t it? bloody good at everything those buggers. And they had to do it at the same time as taking on a new country in East Germany, imagine the scale of transformation?, yet they were largely successful in integrating the former GDR into West Germany.
The point regarding zero transition is fair but while something should have been done, I don’t think it is obvious what.
There were reforms in education but they don’t seem to have achieved much, in fact, arguably with education such a political football and higher education such a pyramid scheme, maybe it’s worse.
Like any government there was success and failure and the extent to which we can judge these through the eyes of the people at that time is limited.
Moreover, I think that the difficulties we are encountering now may have been less had some Thatcherite policies been in place. Less debt, fewer zombie businesses, fewer people on out of work benefits. I don’t expect you to agree but life could have been worse had the policies not been enacted
Are there examples of countries that planned deindustrialisation in the traditional manufacturing areas? That co-operated with the unions in introducing new industries in a coordinated fashion to pace the decline and directly replace the old jobs lost?
There is such a low level of policing among such a high level of vigilantism plus drug wars that is now a Wild West of no-go zones. It’s about time the BBC walked around with their cameras because seeing is believing!
The Socialist principles and sense of community that existed in mining communities didn’t just end overnight with the closure of the mines. The previously organised structure and culture carried on for 10-20 years after that, then it slowly began to erode, as the local community activists/leaders passed away and weren’t replaced. The threat of lawlessness and far-right activity was kept at bay. It does however now feel that a crossroads has been reached, and these once proud communities are on the verge of breaking down, and indeed those things you mention cold well take hold.
It’s not just that industries were in decline, some of which (but not all) were inevitable with the cost saving efficiencies of globalisation. There was zero transition to new economies – the rust belt in the USA is similar, now drug and gang filled in similarly alarming ways (as told to me by two young men who jacked a car and drove west who I paid for a summer and let live in my place). In my separate post (still being mediated) I give two of probably 30 examples of the destructive societal impact of Thatcherism… so many here on Unherd opine about lost values and the old ways – your own heroine was the figurehead of that decline
There is such a low level of policing among such a high level of vigilantism plus drug wars that is now a Wild West of no-go zones. It’s about time the BBC walked around with their cameras because seeing is believing!
The Socialist principles and sense of community that existed in mining communities didn’t just end overnight with the closure of the mines. The previously organised structure and culture carried on for 10-20 years after that, then it slowly began to erode, as the local community activists/leaders passed away and weren’t replaced. The threat of lawlessness and far-right activity was kept at bay. It does however now feel that a crossroads has been reached, and these once proud communities are on the verge of breaking down, and indeed those things you mention cold well take hold.
While I’m sure we can blame Thatcher till the cows come home, the facts are that she left office well over 30 years ago and that these industries were in decline before hand. Harold Wilson after all closed more mines than Thatcher did.
If what the author said is true of how far his community has fallen, it’s quite staggering that the remaining residents haven’t resorted to vigilantism (ironically, the Police would probably be on that very quickly) or that some hard right party hasn’t stepped in to take advantage of this in one form or another.
This reads like the destruction of a community not able to look after itself. Unable to police itself so the community feels safe. Unable to educate itself even when schools are provided. Unable to find self-respect, drifting into drink and drugs or other medications instead of standing up and doing something to make the community better. Reliant on someone else – the big employer – to provide jobs and help. Even the pain and ‘bad-life syndrome’ gets blamed on someone else, someone exterior.
Learning to read to beat illiteracy requires hard work, dedication and time, otherwise you’re left relying on someone else to read for you. Learning to thrive to beat despair also requires hard work, dedication and time otherwise you’re left relying on someone else to fix your life for you. Community starts one letter, one word, one act of kindness at a time – don’t give it away and then complain that someone else controls your life and doesn’t care.
Motivation can be hard to come by though, when even after doing everything right there’s still almost nothing in the way of opportunities for you
This cycle of dependency is costing billions and getting bigger and more difunctional by the day. The poverty industry is booming and the book discusses how we can break this cycle.
Motivation can be hard to come by though, when even after doing everything right there’s still almost nothing in the way of opportunities for you
This cycle of dependency is costing billions and getting bigger and more difunctional by the day. The poverty industry is booming and the book discusses how we can break this cycle.
This reads like the destruction of a community not able to look after itself. Unable to police itself so the community feels safe. Unable to educate itself even when schools are provided. Unable to find self-respect, drifting into drink and drugs or other medications instead of standing up and doing something to make the community better. Reliant on someone else – the big employer – to provide jobs and help. Even the pain and ‘bad-life syndrome’ gets blamed on someone else, someone exterior.
Learning to read to beat illiteracy requires hard work, dedication and time, otherwise you’re left relying on someone else to read for you. Learning to thrive to beat despair also requires hard work, dedication and time otherwise you’re left relying on someone else to fix your life for you. Community starts one letter, one word, one act of kindness at a time – don’t give it away and then complain that someone else controls your life and doesn’t care.
“It was spite.”
Yes indeed it was, a spiteful diatribe in fact, for which the author should be ashamed.
Why should he be ashamed? Thatchers policies made thousands upon thousands of lives immeasurably worse, so why shouldn’t those people celebrate her demise?
Lady Thatcher left office in 1990! QED?
But as she said herself, her greatest achievement was creating Bliar, and he basically carried on her work.
But as she said herself, her greatest achievement was creating Bliar, and he basically carried on her work.
Lady Thatcher left office in 1990! QED?
Indeed. The author, once he became literate, would have learned a better lesson from “Hillbilly Elegy”. J.D. Vance grew up in desperate poverty in Appalachia – America’s equivalent of Britain’s forgotten North – but went on to graduate from Yale and is now a U.S. senator. This bitter (and grammatically odd) screed does no favors to the author’s damaged psyche.
The writer has clearly done fine for himself, learning to read, writing a book and travelling the world. However whereas Vance looks back on those he grew up around with scorn, this writer looks back on those in his home town with pity. Vance’s escape was the army, without it he’d have no doubt ended up no better than those drug addled neighbours he now looks down on
I’m a campaigner first and a writer second thou separating the two is now impossible. Hence this conversation!
It wasn’t a criticism, I agree with the points you make the way the old industrial towns were gutted was callous, and society is paying today for Thatchers lack of foresight. From poorly run and expensive privatised public services and utilities, a housing crisis due to selling off all the council houses and believing “the market” would replace them (even though it’s in the markets interest to keep house prices inflated), the gut economy due to various union busting laws stripping power from workers to demand higher wages, the bulk of these problems started with Thatchers reforms, and the subsequent PMs who have simply carried them on are equally responsible
It wasn’t a criticism, I agree with the points you make the way the old industrial towns were gutted was callous, and society is paying today for Thatchers lack of foresight. From poorly run and expensive privatised public services and utilities, a housing crisis due to selling off all the council houses and believing “the market” would replace them (even though it’s in the markets interest to keep house prices inflated), the gut economy due to various union busting laws stripping power from workers to demand higher wages, the bulk of these problems started with Thatchers reforms, and the subsequent PMs who have simply carried them on are equally responsible
I’m a campaigner first and a writer second thou separating the two is now impossible. Hence this conversation!
The writer has clearly done fine for himself, learning to read, writing a book and travelling the world. However whereas Vance looks back on those he grew up around with scorn, this writer looks back on those in his home town with pity. Vance’s escape was the army, without it he’d have no doubt ended up no better than those drug addled neighbours he now looks down on
You should be ashamed, voting for the b***h. Still, I suppose you are all right Jack, and only think of yourself and not others.
Why should he be ashamed? Thatchers policies made thousands upon thousands of lives immeasurably worse, so why shouldn’t those people celebrate her demise?
Indeed. The author, once he became literate, would have learned a better lesson from “Hillbilly Elegy”. J.D. Vance grew up in desperate poverty in Appalachia – America’s equivalent of Britain’s forgotten North – but went on to graduate from Yale and is now a U.S. senator. This bitter (and grammatically odd) screed does no favors to the author’s damaged psyche.
You should be ashamed, voting for the b***h. Still, I suppose you are all right Jack, and only think of yourself and not others.
“It was spite.”
Yes indeed it was, a spiteful diatribe in fact, for which the author should be ashamed.
It’s not Thatcher trying to stop coal now! Our Green unacknowledged legislators are also now to kill a different extractive industry. North Sea oil. Where many of those made redundant by the collapse of heavy industry in North East England now work. And now Aberdeen is starting to resemble Middlesborough. At least Thatcher had the excuse she was trying to balance the books, deep coal in the UK needed state subsidies. Oil on the other hand is a cash cow for the state
It’s not Thatcher trying to stop coal now! Our Green unacknowledged legislators are also now to kill a different extractive industry. North Sea oil. Where many of those made redundant by the collapse of heavy industry in North East England now work. And now Aberdeen is starting to resemble Middlesborough. At least Thatcher had the excuse she was trying to balance the books, deep coal in the UK needed state subsidies. Oil on the other hand is a cash cow for the state
“It is hard to believe one person in the top job could change the personality of a nation. From a once caring and united community-driven society to the fractured and divided, “I’m alright Jack, ‘loads ov money,” dog-eat-dog existence we are enduring today, but it happened. And it happened in my lifetime.”
I lived through this era too, in industrialised South Wales and my recollection is a struggle against huge unions and stories of how they bullied individuals. Against waste and inefficiency, resources starved from entrepreneurs and transferred to powerful in groups.
Of course people suffered, many unjustly and communities were harmed but let’s not pretend that the world before Maggie was one of milk and honey.
Good point, but how would Britain look if she had never been born?
Worse on the whole. How would Britain look if Tony Blair etc. had never been born?
Worse on the whole. How would Britain look if Tony Blair etc. had never been born?
Agree, though the period between 1955 and 1975, was generally one of an upward trajectory for ordinary working-class people. It’s this period that people ( especially those that are struggling to look back on fondly and compare and contrast with today. There was hope then, there isn’t now, and the removal of hope can’t be underestimated.
Good point, but how would Britain look if she had never been born?
Agree, though the period between 1955 and 1975, was generally one of an upward trajectory for ordinary working-class people. It’s this period that people ( especially those that are struggling to look back on fondly and compare and contrast with today. There was hope then, there isn’t now, and the removal of hope can’t be underestimated.
“It is hard to believe one person in the top job could change the personality of a nation. From a once caring and united community-driven society to the fractured and divided, “I’m alright Jack, ‘loads ov money,” dog-eat-dog existence we are enduring today, but it happened. And it happened in my lifetime.”
I lived through this era too, in industrialised South Wales and my recollection is a struggle against huge unions and stories of how they bullied individuals. Against waste and inefficiency, resources starved from entrepreneurs and transferred to powerful in groups.
Of course people suffered, many unjustly and communities were harmed but let’s not pretend that the world before Maggie was one of milk and honey.
Maybe those miners should not have used the strike weapon to attempt to oust an elected British government? Just sayin.’
Firstly, they didnt, but even if they did, why wouldn’t you want to oust a government that has always done you harm? Cant the same be said of Tories and trades unions?
Firstly, they didnt, but even if they did, why wouldn’t you want to oust a government that has always done you harm? Cant the same be said of Tories and trades unions?
Maybe those miners should not have used the strike weapon to attempt to oust an elected British government? Just sayin.’
I think the lady you should blame for the ‘woes’ of which you speak is Barbara Castle.
Labour closed more mines than the Tories.
Labour nationalised the shipyards in the disastrous Labour government of Harold Wilson in 1966.
Ship-building in the UK became a joke, utterly outclassed by the Japanese and latterly the Korean yards.
The quality control in British yards was and is abysmal. No pride in their work, slapdash ‘it will do’ attitude prevailed and still prevails. Look only to the disaster that is the ferry contract to build two ferries by Fergusons for the Scottish ‘Government’, 6 years late and 5 times over budget, rusting on the stocks and afloat.
The Glen Sannox might be pressed into service, it is doubtful Hull 802 will even be launched.
Then British Steel, nationalised in 1966 in the ‘White Heat of Technology’, losing £1m per minute in 1979.
Ravenscraig, shut down on the orders of the EEC to allow a failing Dutch steelworks to survive.
There is more, much more.
Don’t blame Margaret Thatcher, she merely cleared out the Augean stables level of a mess of British industry created by the Labour Goverments of the 60s and 70s.
Your points outclass Pip’s blinded analysis of the decline of British heavy industry. You’re spot on regarding the mindless nationalisation, combined with the apparent poor levels of industrial management and working attitudes after ww2, and then there’s the trade unions part in all this, crippling industries for the sake of the workers, which just backfired on them, and creating the s***holes which they were forced to grow up and wallow in. Thatcher, as you rightly say, cleared up and put theUK back on a reasonable path to a viable economy. All those victims in the industrial regions have a right to their opinions on her, but they’re only opinions and she is not the culprit.
Have a photograph of my Father and Uncle( who worked in Japan from 1960 in shipping and spoke fluent Japanese) in a bar in Yokohama in 1968 and having looked at at Japanese shipyards, they realised British heavy industry was finished, coal, steel, shipbuilding, heavy mechanical and electrical engineering.
How many Trade Union leaders were inspecting American factories in 1945, German factories in 1950 and Japanese factories in 1960 to assess the industrial competition?
Basically what happened to British Industry was a repeat of the Hungary defeat of England in 1953 when they won 6-3.
This had created a climate of complacency; the English Football Association (FA) simply assumed that as the originators of the game, English players were technically and physically superior to their foreign counterparts. In addition, coaching and tactical advances from abroad were ignored, with the England national side and the majority of clubs persisting with the outdated WM formation.
If there is no industry, there are subs, which is what the shop stewards of the un an semi skilled unions did not realise.
Have a photograph of my Father and Uncle( who worked in Japan from 1960 in shipping and spoke fluent Japanese) in a bar in Yokohama in 1968 and having looked at at Japanese shipyards, they realised British heavy industry was finished, coal, steel, shipbuilding, heavy mechanical and electrical engineering.
How many Trade Union leaders were inspecting American factories in 1945, German factories in 1950 and Japanese factories in 1960 to assess the industrial competition?
Basically what happened to British Industry was a repeat of the Hungary defeat of England in 1953 when they won 6-3.
This had created a climate of complacency; the English Football Association (FA) simply assumed that as the originators of the game, English players were technically and physically superior to their foreign counterparts. In addition, coaching and tactical advances from abroad were ignored, with the England national side and the majority of clubs persisting with the outdated WM formation.
If there is no industry, there are subs, which is what the shop stewards of the un an semi skilled unions did not realise.
Brilliant. In fact Labour of 1945 to 1951 due to Jay, Wilson, Gaitskill and the un and semi skilled unions which changed British Industry such that is was incapable of responding to new technologies, internation events ( closure of Suez Canal in 1967) and newly industrialised countries ( Japan ), quickly enough.
Darwin said it is the species which most quickly respond to new environments which have the evolutionary advantage.
Your points outclass Pip’s blinded analysis of the decline of British heavy industry. You’re spot on regarding the mindless nationalisation, combined with the apparent poor levels of industrial management and working attitudes after ww2, and then there’s the trade unions part in all this, crippling industries for the sake of the workers, which just backfired on them, and creating the s***holes which they were forced to grow up and wallow in. Thatcher, as you rightly say, cleared up and put theUK back on a reasonable path to a viable economy. All those victims in the industrial regions have a right to their opinions on her, but they’re only opinions and she is not the culprit.
Brilliant. In fact Labour of 1945 to 1951 due to Jay, Wilson, Gaitskill and the un and semi skilled unions which changed British Industry such that is was incapable of responding to new technologies, internation events ( closure of Suez Canal in 1967) and newly industrialised countries ( Japan ), quickly enough.
Darwin said it is the species which most quickly respond to new environments which have the evolutionary advantage.
I think the lady you should blame for the ‘woes’ of which you speak is Barbara Castle.
Labour closed more mines than the Tories.
Labour nationalised the shipyards in the disastrous Labour government of Harold Wilson in 1966.
Ship-building in the UK became a joke, utterly outclassed by the Japanese and latterly the Korean yards.
The quality control in British yards was and is abysmal. No pride in their work, slapdash ‘it will do’ attitude prevailed and still prevails. Look only to the disaster that is the ferry contract to build two ferries by Fergusons for the Scottish ‘Government’, 6 years late and 5 times over budget, rusting on the stocks and afloat.
The Glen Sannox might be pressed into service, it is doubtful Hull 802 will even be launched.
Then British Steel, nationalised in 1966 in the ‘White Heat of Technology’, losing £1m per minute in 1979.
Ravenscraig, shut down on the orders of the EEC to allow a failing Dutch steelworks to survive.
There is more, much more.
Don’t blame Margaret Thatcher, she merely cleared out the Augean stables level of a mess of British industry created by the Labour Goverments of the 60s and 70s.
My Scottish family were all in textiles – the once thriving industry (along with N. England, they ‘clothed the World’) folded long before Thatcher was even an MP. Not a single job remained for them. They are all thriving now though, all moved to places in the UK, US and Auz, where they and their families could have a good life. It’s globalisation, modernisation that is at the heart of it; and complaints about these forces are tempered by the facts that they are also behind the greatest poverty reduction in history, and healthy interdependency between nations.
Lack of opportunity creates winners and losers. I think what this book asks is, when a supposedly modern day developed nation is dealing with such huge challenges, might there be better ways?
Go where the opportunities are, make your own opportunities, if not for yourself, for your children. A modern developed nation is primarily one that allows for this, and whose government facilitates this by being a good rulemaker/referee/enforcer; and is aware of the limitations and pitfalls of trying to centrally control the economy (contrast with authoritarian or dysfunctional states). Under the former (as opposed to those living in an authoritarian or dysfunctional state – North Korea or Haiti) , it is cruel and dysfunctional to claim or believe that government is responsible for your suffering. That way of thinking is mere psychological game playing – that creates a poverty trap and a depression trap.
Go where the opportunities are, make your own opportunities, if not for yourself, for your children. A modern developed nation is primarily one that allows for this, and whose government facilitates this by being a good rulemaker/referee/enforcer; and is aware of the limitations and pitfalls of trying to centrally control the economy (contrast with authoritarian or dysfunctional states). Under the former (as opposed to those living in an authoritarian or dysfunctional state – North Korea or Haiti) , it is cruel and dysfunctional to claim or believe that government is responsible for your suffering. That way of thinking is mere psychological game playing – that creates a poverty trap and a depression trap.
Lack of opportunity creates winners and losers. I think what this book asks is, when a supposedly modern day developed nation is dealing with such huge challenges, might there be better ways?
My Scottish family were all in textiles – the once thriving industry (along with N. England, they ‘clothed the World’) folded long before Thatcher was even an MP. Not a single job remained for them. They are all thriving now though, all moved to places in the UK, US and Auz, where they and their families could have a good life. It’s globalisation, modernisation that is at the heart of it; and complaints about these forces are tempered by the facts that they are also behind the greatest poverty reduction in history, and healthy interdependency between nations.
I’m from a council estate. My father unemployed for many years. He volunteered for the British army in WW2 and was left on the scrap heap. We were no friends of Maggie Thatcher, I can assure you..
But why would I celebrate her death ? The Labour Party is full of traitors to the working class. Many trade union leaders are traitors to the working class.
And the main reason these places are so awful with high crime ? Drugs .
Drugs have destroyed working class communities in the UK and the US and many other countries.
The understandable anger should not be directed at a dead and buried former PM.
Save it for the people who hijacked and ruined the Labour Party and continue to do so. Save it for the drug dealers, the inept PC police, the upper class ‘ class warriors ‘ and ‘ eco protesters’ who don’t give a toss about the real working class.
Save it for the main stream media that never report any of the real reasons for the western decline.
I’m from a council estate. My father unemployed for many years. He volunteered for the British army in WW2 and was left on the scrap heap. We were no friends of Maggie Thatcher, I can assure you..
But why would I celebrate her death ? The Labour Party is full of traitors to the working class. Many trade union leaders are traitors to the working class.
And the main reason these places are so awful with high crime ? Drugs .
Drugs have destroyed working class communities in the UK and the US and many other countries.
The understandable anger should not be directed at a dead and buried former PM.
Save it for the people who hijacked and ruined the Labour Party and continue to do so. Save it for the drug dealers, the inept PC police, the upper class ‘ class warriors ‘ and ‘ eco protesters’ who don’t give a toss about the real working class.
Save it for the main stream media that never report any of the real reasons for the western decline.
How is it Mrs Thatcher’s fault that the police in Durham decided some years ago that investigating crime, let alone preventing it, was no longer on the list of things they could be bothered to do?
How is it Mrs Thatcher’s fault that the police in Durham decided some years ago that investigating crime, let alone preventing it, was no longer on the list of things they could be bothered to do?
The unions killed British shipbuilding, as they did for much of the UK’s heavy industry. There were more than 24 shipbuilding unions in 1977, including 5 metalworking unions (a ‘screw, nut, bolt, and rivet union’ being one). Their confederation spent most of its time dealing with demarcation disputes, with each union jealously guarding its own powerbase, and striking at the merest hint that a member of another union had switched on a light, or tightened a bolt. Contracts went elsewhere. Who’d a thunk it?
The unions killed British shipbuilding, as they did for much of the UK’s heavy industry. There were more than 24 shipbuilding unions in 1977, including 5 metalworking unions (a ‘screw, nut, bolt, and rivet union’ being one). Their confederation spent most of its time dealing with demarcation disputes, with each union jealously guarding its own powerbase, and striking at the merest hint that a member of another union had switched on a light, or tightened a bolt. Contracts went elsewhere. Who’d a thunk it?
‘From a once caring and united community-driven society to the fractured and divided, ‘
United? We celebrate diversity today! The old trades union slogan ‘Unity is strength’ is now ‘Diversity is strength’.
‘Community-driven’? We have lots of communities in Britain today. Choose which one you belong to – from the gay community to the Albanian community. Pick a side.
‘From a once caring and united community-driven society to the fractured and divided, ‘
United? We celebrate diversity today! The old trades union slogan ‘Unity is strength’ is now ‘Diversity is strength’.
‘Community-driven’? We have lots of communities in Britain today. Choose which one you belong to – from the gay community to the Albanian community. Pick a side.
Well I lived in a carboard box in the middle of the road and had to get up to go to work before I went to bed
Cardboard box?? A palace! I lived in a matchbox with my 67 brothers in the middle of the A1 and we were run over by lorries seventeen times every morning. And it snowed even in August. But we were happy.
Luxury!
This is what happens when Conservative governments invested in Roads, not Rail. You should have moved to the Thornaby marshalling yards.
Luxury!
This is what happens when Conservative governments invested in Roads, not Rail. You should have moved to the Thornaby marshalling yards.
Cardboard box?? A palace! I lived in a matchbox with my 67 brothers in the middle of the A1 and we were run over by lorries seventeen times every morning. And it snowed even in August. But we were happy.
Well I lived in a carboard box in the middle of the road and had to get up to go to work before I went to bed
It really sounds like the local police are in the pockets of the mob. That is one big issue that must – and could – be dealt with now. If law and order were brought back to the area it would help everything else.
It really sounds like the local police are in the pockets of the mob. That is one big issue that must – and could – be dealt with now. If law and order were brought back to the area it would help everything else.
Ram raider smashes up shop (2023). I blame Thatcher (retired 1990)
Ram raider smashes up shop (2023). I blame Thatcher (retired 1990)
What a wonderful piece of writing. A real ‘feel good’ piece. It makes me feel good not to live in Durham.
David – I have no doubt that some of what he says is true, but on the other hand even in Horden, almost certainly the East Durham village/small town with the worst reputation of all, due to several parallel long and garden-less streets which really are in a bad state, the houses and gardens in the rest of the town (possibly a larger number than in the somewhat scary “numbered streets”) are surprisingly beautifully kept. To me, a newcomer to the area in the previous decade, ex-mining County Durham, even the more depressing parts, has a lot going for it. Several of the more run-down villages are in beautiful coastal locations. The people, young and old, are generally friendly and will acknowledge you as they pass you in the street almost as much as in much more remote areas of the UK. Recorded vehicle crime, while higher than in some more remote rural areas, is a fraction of what it is in places like Manchester. The larger towns locally, such as Hartlepool, Stockton, Middlesbrough, and parts of Tyneside, are rather scarier and more difficult to redeem, in my opinion.
Nicely put, but the City of Durham – an absolute glory with it’s cathedral, castle, university and greenery – must be distinguished for those who aren’t familiar with the north east with the County of Durham; something the writer also fails to do.
The Beamish Museum – a former pit village transformed into a living museum of yesterday – is also worth a visit.
Pevsner regarded the view from the railway station towards the Cathedral as one of the finest in Europe.
The equal in fact of the view from the Charles Bridge towards Prague Cathedral.
I beg to differ.
I think there is some confusion here between, Durham, Durham City and County Durham. Some of these no-go hell holes of deprivation are 25 miles from Durham but are in Durham, East Durham. I’ve just read the article again and the confusion doesn’t come from there but from people who have only been on a disappointing fly through poverty safari probably in the more affluent areas of the city. Just to be clear. There are not thousands of heroin addicts living in Durham Cathedral
Don’t you understand then, that it was YOUR fault for the failure to distinguish between those areas in your article?
Don’t you understand? Nothing is Pip’s fault. It’s always someone else’s fault or the system’s. Surprised he didn’t blame the misunderstanding on Thatcher.
Don’t you understand? Nothing is Pip’s fault. It’s always someone else’s fault or the system’s. Surprised he didn’t blame the misunderstanding on Thatcher.
Don’t you understand then, that it was YOUR fault for the failure to distinguish between those areas in your article?
Pevsner regarded the view from the railway station towards the Cathedral as one of the finest in Europe.
The equal in fact of the view from the Charles Bridge towards Prague Cathedral.
I beg to differ.
I think there is some confusion here between, Durham, Durham City and County Durham. Some of these no-go hell holes of deprivation are 25 miles from Durham but are in Durham, East Durham. I’ve just read the article again and the confusion doesn’t come from there but from people who have only been on a disappointing fly through poverty safari probably in the more affluent areas of the city. Just to be clear. There are not thousands of heroin addicts living in Durham Cathedral
Clever propaganda to keep everybody out and keep house prices low for us locals. The North-East offers the best quality of life in the entire country.
Go live in Horden Colliery then
Go live in Horden Colliery then
David – I have no doubt that some of what he says is true, but on the other hand even in Horden, almost certainly the East Durham village/small town with the worst reputation of all, due to several parallel long and garden-less streets which really are in a bad state, the houses and gardens in the rest of the town (possibly a larger number than in the somewhat scary “numbered streets”) are surprisingly beautifully kept. To me, a newcomer to the area in the previous decade, ex-mining County Durham, even the more depressing parts, has a lot going for it. Several of the more run-down villages are in beautiful coastal locations. The people, young and old, are generally friendly and will acknowledge you as they pass you in the street almost as much as in much more remote areas of the UK. Recorded vehicle crime, while higher than in some more remote rural areas, is a fraction of what it is in places like Manchester. The larger towns locally, such as Hartlepool, Stockton, Middlesbrough, and parts of Tyneside, are rather scarier and more difficult to redeem, in my opinion.
Nicely put, but the City of Durham – an absolute glory with it’s cathedral, castle, university and greenery – must be distinguished for those who aren’t familiar with the north east with the County of Durham; something the writer also fails to do.
The Beamish Museum – a former pit village transformed into a living museum of yesterday – is also worth a visit.
Clever propaganda to keep everybody out and keep house prices low for us locals. The North-East offers the best quality of life in the entire country.
What a wonderful piece of writing. A real ‘feel good’ piece. It makes me feel good not to live in Durham.
The only person to blame for his lack of basic literacy education is himself. Did he go to the teacher & ask for extra lessons after school or did he just play along with his mates? I bet any teacher at his school would have jumped at the chance to truly help someone. At that time they still had a vocation to teach children to read, write & do arithmetic rather than the hodge podge of topics that pass for lessons today.
The men did metalwork. The women did domestic science. Pitmen and pitmen wives.
The men did metalwork. The women did domestic science. Pitmen and pitmen wives.
The only person to blame for his lack of basic literacy education is himself. Did he go to the teacher & ask for extra lessons after school or did he just play along with his mates? I bet any teacher at his school would have jumped at the chance to truly help someone. At that time they still had a vocation to teach children to read, write & do arithmetic rather than the hodge podge of topics that pass for lessons today.
As i read each consecutive paragraph I kept thinking to myself:
what?
eh?
really?
OMG!
(repeat)
The author has experienced all these horrendous acts of violence, societal breakdown and neglect, I never thought I would hear. All within such a potentially ‘Idyllic’ part of the Country. I am truely shocked.
Life down t’Pit
However, its not true to say ”men should have been allowed to continually follow their fathers down ‘Pit’‘ (paraphrasing). Its vile, filthy, unhealthy work that cut his forefathers lives short by 20/30 years. Harold Wilson shut more pits than Thatcher.
BG – BT – BA – BL (rememebr that lot?) and the rest:
Its very easy to forget the massive drain on the public purse these lame duck industries were. At least now most are delivering tax to UK PLC by way of Corporation tax.
Eg: BT had around 250,000 employees, and yet we had to wait 2 years for a phone (yes really!)
A Japanise car import had CARPETS and RADIO as standard! Not a BL car – Plus whilst BL were not on strike they were building fourth rate/unreliable/cars that rusted within 3 years, no-one wanted that rubbish.
Royal Mail:
Frankly this company is a complete joke and deserves to go out of business. ‘Signed for next day delivery‘ took 1 week for somehting I sent just this week. You claim is was sold for a fraction of its worth – its worth nothing in reality. Its business model has been overtaken by modernety.
Sympathy?
Your ‘‘Coming out in sympathy” was actually called ‘Secondary Strike Action’ and was the death knell to business unrelated to the strike – so yes, it was rightly banned.
Strikers this year:
Your list of strikers within the last 6/9 months is correct, however they all have one theme running through them – that is they are all tax-payer funded jobs.
Think about that.
You have not mentioend a strike (say) at Nissan or Toyota or Rolls Royce, as these companies are not shileded by the Tax-Payer but are at the mercy of their customers.
In General:
Your article is quite shocking, of that there is no doubt. The good people of the north East (and other areas) were severaly let down. It seems they still are being let down.
Neither you nor anyone else can seriously expect mines to be re-opened and therefore mine-workers lives cut short once more by decades.
Its not Thatchers fault CHINA can produce Steel at a quarter of the price of UK Steel – but I understand why you think its ”all her fault” – The West collectively (stop being a ‘little Briton’ in all this) outsorced much of its manufacturing trade to China – for £2.50 per hour and not £10 an hour.
Thats not Thatchers fault.
As i read each consecutive paragraph I kept thinking to myself:
what?
eh?
really?
OMG!
(repeat)
The author has experienced all these horrendous acts of violence, societal breakdown and neglect, I never thought I would hear. All within such a potentially ‘Idyllic’ part of the Country. I am truely shocked.
Life down t’Pit
However, its not true to say ”men should have been allowed to continually follow their fathers down ‘Pit’‘ (paraphrasing). Its vile, filthy, unhealthy work that cut his forefathers lives short by 20/30 years. Harold Wilson shut more pits than Thatcher.
BG – BT – BA – BL (rememebr that lot?) and the rest:
Its very easy to forget the massive drain on the public purse these lame duck industries were. At least now most are delivering tax to UK PLC by way of Corporation tax.
Eg: BT had around 250,000 employees, and yet we had to wait 2 years for a phone (yes really!)
A Japanise car import had CARPETS and RADIO as standard! Not a BL car – Plus whilst BL were not on strike they were building fourth rate/unreliable/cars that rusted within 3 years, no-one wanted that rubbish.
Royal Mail:
Frankly this company is a complete joke and deserves to go out of business. ‘Signed for next day delivery‘ took 1 week for somehting I sent just this week. You claim is was sold for a fraction of its worth – its worth nothing in reality. Its business model has been overtaken by modernety.
Sympathy?
Your ‘‘Coming out in sympathy” was actually called ‘Secondary Strike Action’ and was the death knell to business unrelated to the strike – so yes, it was rightly banned.
Strikers this year:
Your list of strikers within the last 6/9 months is correct, however they all have one theme running through them – that is they are all tax-payer funded jobs.
Think about that.
You have not mentioend a strike (say) at Nissan or Toyota or Rolls Royce, as these companies are not shileded by the Tax-Payer but are at the mercy of their customers.
In General:
Your article is quite shocking, of that there is no doubt. The good people of the north East (and other areas) were severaly let down. It seems they still are being let down.
Neither you nor anyone else can seriously expect mines to be re-opened and therefore mine-workers lives cut short once more by decades.
Its not Thatchers fault CHINA can produce Steel at a quarter of the price of UK Steel – but I understand why you think its ”all her fault” – The West collectively (stop being a ‘little Briton’ in all this) outsorced much of its manufacturing trade to China – for £2.50 per hour and not £10 an hour.
Thats not Thatchers fault.
I’ve spent a lot of time in the North East recently and completely recognise the picture the writer paints.
However, blaming Thatcher misses the point: more pits closed under Harold Wilson than during Thatcher’s term of office and the industry, like steel and shipbuilding were in decline throughout the latter half of the last century.
The failure, and it was as much the fault of Blair/Brown and successive governments as of Thatcher, was to find a new economic purpose for the area as heavy industry disappeared.
And the appalling withdrawal of the Police has been a Twenty-First Century phenomenon for which the Home Office bureaucracy is culpable.
The tragedy has been compounded by the downfall of Boris Johnson: the ‘leveling up’ vision should have seen places like Durham helped to re-establish their jobs markets and claim a fair share of the nation’s prosperity; but Johnson was denied the opportunity to deliver on the promise by Covid, and by the witch hunt that brought him down.
The people of Durham deserve much better, but I’m afraid Labour is too stuck in the past to deliver it.
I’ve spent a lot of time in the North East recently and completely recognise the picture the writer paints.
However, blaming Thatcher misses the point: more pits closed under Harold Wilson than during Thatcher’s term of office and the industry, like steel and shipbuilding were in decline throughout the latter half of the last century.
The failure, and it was as much the fault of Blair/Brown and successive governments as of Thatcher, was to find a new economic purpose for the area as heavy industry disappeared.
And the appalling withdrawal of the Police has been a Twenty-First Century phenomenon for which the Home Office bureaucracy is culpable.
The tragedy has been compounded by the downfall of Boris Johnson: the ‘leveling up’ vision should have seen places like Durham helped to re-establish their jobs markets and claim a fair share of the nation’s prosperity; but Johnson was denied the opportunity to deliver on the promise by Covid, and by the witch hunt that brought him down.
The people of Durham deserve much better, but I’m afraid Labour is too stuck in the past to deliver it.
If the UK elites would drop their insane net zero fantasy, and frack the ocean of natural gas the UK sits on, there would be millions of jobs for the displaced workers in the North. Jobs directly in gas extraction (not too fa from the pits in spirit). Jobs in industries enabled by cheap energy let petro-chemicals, smelting, steel. Jobs supplying all the equipment and building the infrastructure needed.
Even better, if you export your gas surplus to China and India and Africa to replace coal and wood fuels, you’ll massively improve the economy. Replacing coal with gas is far better for the environment than replacing gas with unreliable renewable. The US reduced its carbon emissions 19% by switching from coal to gas.
If the UK elites would drop their insane net zero fantasy, and frack the ocean of natural gas the UK sits on, there would be millions of jobs for the displaced workers in the North. Jobs directly in gas extraction (not too fa from the pits in spirit). Jobs in industries enabled by cheap energy let petro-chemicals, smelting, steel. Jobs supplying all the equipment and building the infrastructure needed.
Even better, if you export your gas surplus to China and India and Africa to replace coal and wood fuels, you’ll massively improve the economy. Replacing coal with gas is far better for the environment than replacing gas with unreliable renewable. The US reduced its carbon emissions 19% by switching from coal to gas.
At least no one is accusing the writer of ‘coming back here with your fancy southern ways’. Working class solidarity of old had more than a little bit of inverted snobbery at its core.
There’s a full chapter dedicated to that very point.
There’s a full chapter dedicated to that very point.
At least no one is accusing the writer of ‘coming back here with your fancy southern ways’. Working class solidarity of old had more than a little bit of inverted snobbery at its core.
Where were you when coal mines were being closed?
Were you out there demanding that CO2 emissions continue and that Britain continues to burn coal?
Careful not to relate/confuse the decision to shut Britains heavy industries with environmental issues. This is not why it was done!
Careful not to relate/confuse the decision to shut Britains heavy industries with environmental issues. This is not why it was done!
Where were you when coal mines were being closed?
Were you out there demanding that CO2 emissions continue and that Britain continues to burn coal?
Sad to hear about problems you describe. I’m in a small provincial Spanish city by chance and I have to say, even though Spain is theoretically poorer than us, we clearly do deprivation in a way they couldn’t imagine. The weather certainly helps. But I stopped at the description of royal mail bein “snapped up by wealthy investors for a fraction of it’s real value” Had the author bothered to look at the performance of the royal mail share price? It’s currently 50% down on the floatation value unless I’m getting something wrong. Errors like this leave dispassionate readers rolling their eyes and wondering which of the author’s shoulders is most chiselled. A serious issue that deserves better treatment than this. Despite that, glad Unheard is at least approaching the topic.
Sad to hear about problems you describe. I’m in a small provincial Spanish city by chance and I have to say, even though Spain is theoretically poorer than us, we clearly do deprivation in a way they couldn’t imagine. The weather certainly helps. But I stopped at the description of royal mail bein “snapped up by wealthy investors for a fraction of it’s real value” Had the author bothered to look at the performance of the royal mail share price? It’s currently 50% down on the floatation value unless I’m getting something wrong. Errors like this leave dispassionate readers rolling their eyes and wondering which of the author’s shoulders is most chiselled. A serious issue that deserves better treatment than this. Despite that, glad Unheard is at least approaching the topic.
A massively hysterical piece for sure but it does contain a kernel of truth, that we are now living with the mistakes of Thatcherism.
Privatisation, sold as allowing essential services to be delivered more efficiently and costing the consumer less has led to a situation where key assets like water and energy are owned largely by foreign owners who extract the value and send it overseas in the form of dividends, while failing to invest in the infrastructure. The conscious decision to cripple manufacturing, using high interest rates and a strong pound, and betting the farm on a service economy, particularly financial services so we no longer make or produce remotely enough of what we consume, leaving us with a permanent balance of payments deficit.
The sale of council housing without developing something to replace it, leading to Generation Rent. Regional inequality, the highest in Europe. A low wage, low skill economy.
Ironically, probably her single biggest achievement was ensuring the Single Market was designed to work to Britain’s benefit, and that’s been thrown away by her successors, again with nothing to replace it.
The Tory Party is now reaping the whirlwind as they have lost a majority of younger voters partly as a result of these policies becoming fixed in their thinking.
You don’t seem to know much about the water industry. The water companies are, in effect, contractors to OfWat. The regulator determines how much the water companies can charge, how much they invest, what their profit margins are, what their targets are for reducing leaks and so on. Southern Water, to give just one example, hasn’t paid a dividend since 2017.
I agree with you about council housing: councils should have been able to use the money from their sales to build more houses.
The Single Market would have been very useful to Britain had it included services but, of course, the EU made sure it never did. The Single Market in goods was of very limited benefit to the UK, just as it has been of very limited benefit to Italy (zero cumulative economic growth since 1999). That’s because trade deals in general are of modest economic benefit. Their real importance is geo-political.
You are also right about crippling industry, but that is today’s Conservatives, not Mrs T, who single-handedly brought the Japanese car manufacturers to the UK (including to the NE of course). And it’s the ludicrous energy policies initiated by the lunatic Climate Change Act of 2008 (thank you Ed Miliband) that are mostly to blame. You can’t have successful manufacturing with high energy costs.
Seriously? Water Companies are estimated to have paid out £72bn in dividends since privatisation while prices have jumped 40%. OfWat are just the regulator, they don’t own the companies! And OfWat recently said that “poor performance has become the norm, this can’t go on”. The public have noticed, because they are being asked to swim in their own excrement in our rivers and off our beaches. The reason foreign investors have bought our industry is because they’ve seen it’s licence to print money.
Off course the Single Market included services! It’s why so many companies have opened European branches or relocated, including Jacob Rees-Mogg’s Somerset Capital. As to goods, you should maybe ask all of the exporters being crippled by the non-tariff regulations, or ask why the government has put off bringing in the import controls we signed up to.
The Japanese car manufacturers came because of the Single Market, not some infatuation with Thatcher.
You need to stop making things up because they suit you and look dispassionately at the facts.
Sorry the Japanise car factories came to UK (1984) – a long time before the full Single market was in existance (1993).
Sorry the Japanise car factories came to UK (1984) – a long time before the full Single market was in existance (1993).
Seriously? Water Companies are estimated to have paid out £72bn in dividends since privatisation while prices have jumped 40%. OfWat are just the regulator, they don’t own the companies! And OfWat recently said that “poor performance has become the norm, this can’t go on”. The public have noticed, because they are being asked to swim in their own excrement in our rivers and off our beaches. The reason foreign investors have bought our industry is because they’ve seen it’s licence to print money.
Off course the Single Market included services! It’s why so many companies have opened European branches or relocated, including Jacob Rees-Mogg’s Somerset Capital. As to goods, you should maybe ask all of the exporters being crippled by the non-tariff regulations, or ask why the government has put off bringing in the import controls we signed up to.
The Japanese car manufacturers came because of the Single Market, not some infatuation with Thatcher.
You need to stop making things up because they suit you and look dispassionately at the facts.
You sound like you’ve read the book
Not yet, but I certainly will.
Not yet, but I certainly will.
You don’t seem to know much about the water industry. The water companies are, in effect, contractors to OfWat. The regulator determines how much the water companies can charge, how much they invest, what their profit margins are, what their targets are for reducing leaks and so on. Southern Water, to give just one example, hasn’t paid a dividend since 2017.
I agree with you about council housing: councils should have been able to use the money from their sales to build more houses.
The Single Market would have been very useful to Britain had it included services but, of course, the EU made sure it never did. The Single Market in goods was of very limited benefit to the UK, just as it has been of very limited benefit to Italy (zero cumulative economic growth since 1999). That’s because trade deals in general are of modest economic benefit. Their real importance is geo-political.
You are also right about crippling industry, but that is today’s Conservatives, not Mrs T, who single-handedly brought the Japanese car manufacturers to the UK (including to the NE of course). And it’s the ludicrous energy policies initiated by the lunatic Climate Change Act of 2008 (thank you Ed Miliband) that are mostly to blame. You can’t have successful manufacturing with high energy costs.
You sound like you’ve read the book
A massively hysterical piece for sure but it does contain a kernel of truth, that we are now living with the mistakes of Thatcherism.
Privatisation, sold as allowing essential services to be delivered more efficiently and costing the consumer less has led to a situation where key assets like water and energy are owned largely by foreign owners who extract the value and send it overseas in the form of dividends, while failing to invest in the infrastructure. The conscious decision to cripple manufacturing, using high interest rates and a strong pound, and betting the farm on a service economy, particularly financial services so we no longer make or produce remotely enough of what we consume, leaving us with a permanent balance of payments deficit.
The sale of council housing without developing something to replace it, leading to Generation Rent. Regional inequality, the highest in Europe. A low wage, low skill economy.
Ironically, probably her single biggest achievement was ensuring the Single Market was designed to work to Britain’s benefit, and that’s been thrown away by her successors, again with nothing to replace it.
The Tory Party is now reaping the whirlwind as they have lost a majority of younger voters partly as a result of these policies becoming fixed in their thinking.
Peak coal production in the UK was in 1909. Those collieries were always going to close by the end of the 20th century, although historically more were closed under Labour than the Tories.
I went to a comp in the South Yorks coalfield area in the 1970s. There were no barriers to literacy (I went on to uni and got 2 degrees for example).
Peak coal production in the UK was in 1909. Those collieries were always going to close by the end of the 20th century, although historically more were closed under Labour than the Tories.
I went to a comp in the South Yorks coalfield area in the 1970s. There were no barriers to literacy (I went on to uni and got 2 degrees for example).
Changes in technology are ignored. Fire arms replaced longbows. Archers could earn 6/day or about £180,000 year in todays money. Canals replaced packhorses, which were replaed by railways. Steam power replaced horse power.Telegraphs speeded up comunication. Steam boats replaced sail and wood in ships. Cars replaced railways in part. Gas turbines replaced steam engines. Oil replaced coal in ships leading to reduction in demand. Jets replaced piston engines and steel replaced wood in aeroplanes. The closure of the Suez Canal led ships to increase from 50K to 500K T.This reduced cost of transport of coal, iron ore and all bulk goods. The massive open cast coal mines as compared to deep coal mines of Britain meant we produced coal at £42/T and the world price was £32/T and by the 1980s. 75% of mines were uneconomic and nationalised companies had massive debts partly due to overmanning of un and semi-skilled staff. The strikes of the 1960s did much to make British heavy industry uneconomic and ship building and cars moved to Japan and S korea.
When G Stephenson started locomotice production there were not enough people with the skill to work to such precision and accuracy so he had to train them up.By the the end of the 19th century metal was cut to a precision of 1/1000 inch. Now silicon chips are made to the precision of a 100 atoms and robot arms have to move to an accuracy 4/10000 of an inch.
Technology is a Darwinian test of selection and as distance and time are reduced, peoples skills need to increase to make more intricate items.As late as the 1980s, people could leave school on a Friday and enter unskilled work on Monday and considered education irrelevant to employment.
Changes in technology are ignored. Fire arms replaced longbows. Archers could earn 6/day or about £180,000 year in todays money. Canals replaced packhorses, which were replaed by railways. Steam power replaced horse power.Telegraphs speeded up comunication. Steam boats replaced sail and wood in ships. Cars replaced railways in part. Gas turbines replaced steam engines. Oil replaced coal in ships leading to reduction in demand. Jets replaced piston engines and steel replaced wood in aeroplanes. The closure of the Suez Canal led ships to increase from 50K to 500K T.This reduced cost of transport of coal, iron ore and all bulk goods. The massive open cast coal mines as compared to deep coal mines of Britain meant we produced coal at £42/T and the world price was £32/T and by the 1980s. 75% of mines were uneconomic and nationalised companies had massive debts partly due to overmanning of un and semi-skilled staff. The strikes of the 1960s did much to make British heavy industry uneconomic and ship building and cars moved to Japan and S korea.
When G Stephenson started locomotice production there were not enough people with the skill to work to such precision and accuracy so he had to train them up.By the the end of the 19th century metal was cut to a precision of 1/1000 inch. Now silicon chips are made to the precision of a 100 atoms and robot arms have to move to an accuracy 4/10000 of an inch.
Technology is a Darwinian test of selection and as distance and time are reduced, peoples skills need to increase to make more intricate items.As late as the 1980s, people could leave school on a Friday and enter unskilled work on Monday and considered education irrelevant to employment.
I lived through the years before and during this period, which had a broader range of realities than those discussed here.
Yes, coal mines were extensive, which went to help make steel in the region, which was then used to make the biggest ships in the world for many years.
We lost shipbuilding to countries such as Poland where they cost a fraction of those we built, mainly due to manpower costs and poor management.
I went to a secondary school (didn’t make it to Grammar School) yet left with pretty good English and pretty good maths. This helped me go on the higher things I chose to do and worked hard to achieve.
I worked in one if the nationised industries, all of which were full of waste and inefficiency.
Thatcher set out to address all of this, of which the coal industry was only one example.
You would need to have lived through the decades before this to grasp the extent of which unions laid waste to parts of the country.
I lived through the years before and during this period, which had a broader range of realities than those discussed here.
Yes, coal mines were extensive, which went to help make steel in the region, which was then used to make the biggest ships in the world for many years.
We lost shipbuilding to countries such as Poland where they cost a fraction of those we built, mainly due to manpower costs and poor management.
I went to a secondary school (didn’t make it to Grammar School) yet left with pretty good English and pretty good maths. This helped me go on the higher things I chose to do and worked hard to achieve.
I worked in one if the nationised industries, all of which were full of waste and inefficiency.
Thatcher set out to address all of this, of which the coal industry was only one example.
You would need to have lived through the decades before this to grasp the extent of which unions laid waste to parts of the country.
The views today are as black and white as they can be. People feel the need to justify their views by attaching a potted biography. Please allow me to do so.
I was born in a town in N England and left at 17. My father was a shop-steward in a car factory and he wanted me to follow him. I left because I wanted more. Now all of the industry has gone and the town is a wreck. Perhaps I was lucky but ambition played a big part in my life and this ambition came from within. Since then I reached the peak of Production Manager in various factories. These factories have now all closed. I must have done a bad job. Most of the time I was fighting the unions. With hindsight the unions were almost always right. The owners just wanted to grab more for themselves.
Looking back, the problems started when we joined the EU. The idea was that our markets would be bigger but Germany was always better situated to take advantage of the markets. Around this time came the big split between SE England and the rest. Today the scale of the difference is almost an obscenity. This is why Liverpool fans booed the national anthem, why people in Wales were afraid to put out bunting because they would have been ‘egged’, why towns and cities like Rotherham and Durham are in this sorry state, why jokers in the SNP get votes. There may be areas in the SE which are bad but these are the exception rather than the rule.
The people in the SE make the rules and live relatively well. They have brilliant transport systems which they complain about incessantly. They have picturesque green areas and justify this by telling how their ambition and work ethic has been their ‘raison d’etre’. They are leading us down the path towards a ‘green’ world when they will be fine because of public transport – elsewhere else there will be disaster. Who cares, though?
I would suggest that in the future, posters on UnHerd should say (roughly) where they live. Most of the ‘stop moaning’ comments will come from SE England.
Just out of interest, for 20 years Wales has had some control over its own environment and lifestyle. That control has always been with Labour. Wales is very poor, there aren’t many jobs, there is one roughish area BUT the scale of crime and devastation is nowhere near that of N.England. The English taxpayer has helped in a big way but the same is true for the people in N.England – also part of the Barnet formula. Every year 10 million English tourists visit Wales and many own second homes and fixed caravans in Wales.
I’ll take up your eloquently-expressed offer, Caradog Williams / Chris Wheatley.
I was born in a council house in a north-western mill town, just as the mills were closing so not unlike the author’s experience. My father worked in a tannery (which closed), my mother a shop worker. I could read by the time i got to infant school. I moved away to university but later returned, and the town is now starting to prosper again. I know of the type of poverty he’s trying to portray, but also about attitudes to adversity. The author’s attitude is ultimately self-defeating.
My name is spelled with one ‘l’ because Williams is not welsh. Caradog is one ‘l’ of a lad.
Thanks Mr. Wheatley.
Have you “gone native” as we used to say?
Thanks Mr. Wheatley.
Have you “gone native” as we used to say?
Self defeating indeed, I’ve had thousands of reviews from people who have actually read the book and that’s the first time I’ve heard that fraise. The book isn’t even about me. Never judge a book by……….
I’m not referring to your book, but to the article – which is almost too obvious to have to state.
‘fraise’ a juicy french strawberry, or for some perhaps a bitter fruit.
I’m not referring to your book, but to the article – which is almost too obvious to have to state.
‘fraise’ a juicy french strawberry, or for some perhaps a bitter fruit.
My name is spelled with one ‘l’ because Williams is not welsh. Caradog is one ‘l’ of a lad.
Self defeating indeed, I’ve had thousands of reviews from people who have actually read the book and that’s the first time I’ve heard that fraise. The book isn’t even about me. Never judge a book by……….
I think if you bother to read most of the comments the majority actually come from north of the Watford Gap. Many from County Durham and others from places like Stoke and Coventry. For the record I don’t come from the UK at all.
Northern England is NOT a recipient of the Barnett Formula which explicitly deals with National Funding for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland uplifted from what is spent in England as a whole.
I’ll take up your eloquently-expressed offer, Caradog Williams / Chris Wheatley.
I was born in a council house in a north-western mill town, just as the mills were closing so not unlike the author’s experience. My father worked in a tannery (which closed), my mother a shop worker. I could read by the time i got to infant school. I moved away to university but later returned, and the town is now starting to prosper again. I know of the type of poverty he’s trying to portray, but also about attitudes to adversity. The author’s attitude is ultimately self-defeating.
I think if you bother to read most of the comments the majority actually come from north of the Watford Gap. Many from County Durham and others from places like Stoke and Coventry. For the record I don’t come from the UK at all.
Northern England is NOT a recipient of the Barnett Formula which explicitly deals with National Funding for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland uplifted from what is spent in England as a whole.
The views today are as black and white as they can be. People feel the need to justify their views by attaching a potted biography. Please allow me to do so.
I was born in a town in N England and left at 17. My father was a shop-steward in a car factory and he wanted me to follow him. I left because I wanted more. Now all of the industry has gone and the town is a wreck. Perhaps I was lucky but ambition played a big part in my life and this ambition came from within. Since then I reached the peak of Production Manager in various factories. These factories have now all closed. I must have done a bad job. Most of the time I was fighting the unions. With hindsight the unions were almost always right. The owners just wanted to grab more for themselves.
Looking back, the problems started when we joined the EU. The idea was that our markets would be bigger but Germany was always better situated to take advantage of the markets. Around this time came the big split between SE England and the rest. Today the scale of the difference is almost an obscenity. This is why Liverpool fans booed the national anthem, why people in Wales were afraid to put out bunting because they would have been ‘egged’, why towns and cities like Rotherham and Durham are in this sorry state, why jokers in the SNP get votes. There may be areas in the SE which are bad but these are the exception rather than the rule.
The people in the SE make the rules and live relatively well. They have brilliant transport systems which they complain about incessantly. They have picturesque green areas and justify this by telling how their ambition and work ethic has been their ‘raison d’etre’. They are leading us down the path towards a ‘green’ world when they will be fine because of public transport – elsewhere else there will be disaster. Who cares, though?
I would suggest that in the future, posters on UnHerd should say (roughly) where they live. Most of the ‘stop moaning’ comments will come from SE England.
Just out of interest, for 20 years Wales has had some control over its own environment and lifestyle. That control has always been with Labour. Wales is very poor, there aren’t many jobs, there is one roughish area BUT the scale of crime and devastation is nowhere near that of N.England. The English taxpayer has helped in a big way but the same is true for the people in N.England – also part of the Barnet formula. Every year 10 million English tourists visit Wales and many own second homes and fixed caravans in Wales.
The quote ahead of Tony Harrison’s V, a poem that is a cri de couer around the same era and issues, is from Arthur Scargill. Scargill claims his father read the dictionary every day as he said your life depends on how you master words. That still just holds I think although ChatGBT may ring the death knell on that particular wisdom. Mining communities might well have been advised that literacy wouldn’t matter but it was bad advice. The industries crumbled because other people in other parts of the world could make for less. They got wealthier and we got poorer and it continues on that slide. No single politician could cause it or could prevent it. The neglect of those communities left to rot shames governments and societies but the rot is spreading and will soon infest educated professionals and rueful homeowners until, bar a small coterie of moneyed technocrats, no one will notice the stench. So it goes unfortunately.
The quote ahead of Tony Harrison’s V, a poem that is a cri de couer around the same era and issues, is from Arthur Scargill. Scargill claims his father read the dictionary every day as he said your life depends on how you master words. That still just holds I think although ChatGBT may ring the death knell on that particular wisdom. Mining communities might well have been advised that literacy wouldn’t matter but it was bad advice. The industries crumbled because other people in other parts of the world could make for less. They got wealthier and we got poorer and it continues on that slide. No single politician could cause it or could prevent it. The neglect of those communities left to rot shames governments and societies but the rot is spreading and will soon infest educated professionals and rueful homeowners until, bar a small coterie of moneyed technocrats, no one will notice the stench. So it goes unfortunately.
I’m surprised this dumb essay made it past the editors. But then, if he’s only been literate for 20 years, this is the equivalent of a college freshman’s writing. I guess that explains it.
Not buying the book then?
Not buying the book then?
I’m surprised this dumb essay made it past the editors. But then, if he’s only been literate for 20 years, this is the equivalent of a college freshman’s writing. I guess that explains it.
The question is – granted that things were terrible in Durham during the Thatcher Revolution (which was inevitable, but horrible), why haven’t they improved since ?
And for that, the whole country is at fault, not Mrs Thatcher.
The question is – granted that things were terrible in Durham during the Thatcher Revolution (which was inevitable, but horrible), why haven’t they improved since ?
And for that, the whole country is at fault, not Mrs Thatcher.
Thank you to the writer for an interesting article.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of Thatcherism, the people of the UK are clearly being badly let down when subjected to serial burglary and a police force which is not fit for purpose.
Thank you to the writer for an interesting article.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of Thatcherism, the people of the UK are clearly being badly let down when subjected to serial burglary and a police force which is not fit for purpose.
Tough crowd here today. I lived there most of my life (somewhere more genteel, not a former mining town). The visceral hatred for Thatcher remains. I haven’t ruled out moving back in the future.
It’s grim up north, as they say, but I wouldn’t say it is any grimmer than parts of North Wales. There they hate the English as well as Thatcher!
If you haven’t lived there and just know what your friends tell you, then I’d be cautious about thinking you understand it.
I really enjoyed your piece so I’ve just bought the Audible version of your book.
If you’re referencing what i wrote in my comment about “friends”, see also my later comment about my own upbringing.
That may have stuck in my mind as I scanned through the thread, but it was not directed at you, just to the overall lack of empathy here. Darren McGarvey is another good guide to a world outside many people’s comprehension and experience.
Unlike Pip Fallow, Darren McGarvey realised that people need to take responsibility for their own lives instead of constantly blaming the system and some dead old lady from the 80s.
Unlike Pip Fallow, Darren McGarvey realised that people need to take responsibility for their own lives instead of constantly blaming the system and some dead old lady from the 80s.
That may have stuck in my mind as I scanned through the thread, but it was not directed at you, just to the overall lack of empathy here. Darren McGarvey is another good guide to a world outside many people’s comprehension and experience.
If you’re referencing what i wrote in my comment about “friends”, see also my later comment about my own upbringing.
Tough crowd here today. I lived there most of my life (somewhere more genteel, not a former mining town). The visceral hatred for Thatcher remains. I haven’t ruled out moving back in the future.
It’s grim up north, as they say, but I wouldn’t say it is any grimmer than parts of North Wales. There they hate the English as well as Thatcher!
If you haven’t lived there and just know what your friends tell you, then I’d be cautious about thinking you understand it.
I really enjoyed your piece so I’ve just bought the Audible version of your book.
I lived in North East from 1973 until 2003 in a former mining town. I do not recognise the author’s description at all. My wife lived there from 1958 and my parents and daughter still live there – we were never burgled.
I lived in North East from 1973 until 2003 in a former mining town. I do not recognise the author’s description at all. My wife lived there from 1958 and my parents and daughter still live there – we were never burgled.
So this wonderful community spirit did not come from anything within those communities? It came from infantilisation of the communities via government subsidising the men to be coal miners. If the communities were so strong and vibrant why did that spirit just collapse. And how did the author manage to become literate abroad, but could not become literate here?
So this wonderful community spirit did not come from anything within those communities? It came from infantilisation of the communities via government subsidising the men to be coal miners. If the communities were so strong and vibrant why did that spirit just collapse. And how did the author manage to become literate abroad, but could not become literate here?
It’s a shame that despite 50 years out in the world and your newly acquired skills in reading and writing (sorry, how can you attend school to the age of 12 and not be able to read or write without some kind of learning disability???) that you have not managed to garner any understanding of the conomics and issues around the UK’s industries under Thatchers government. Massively inefficient, run mostly by unions hell bent on control on their terms and blind to the coming changes in the worlds economies and conditions abroad. Despite the hardships and upheavals, Thatchers Britain built the economiy that has powered the UK. It was a hard but necessary path. It’s a shame we have not invested more in many and of course mistakes were made. But you seem so steeped in your student poloitics still, you are unable to see any other argument.
It’s a shame that despite 50 years out in the world and your newly acquired skills in reading and writing (sorry, how can you attend school to the age of 12 and not be able to read or write without some kind of learning disability???) that you have not managed to garner any understanding of the conomics and issues around the UK’s industries under Thatchers government. Massively inefficient, run mostly by unions hell bent on control on their terms and blind to the coming changes in the worlds economies and conditions abroad. Despite the hardships and upheavals, Thatchers Britain built the economiy that has powered the UK. It was a hard but necessary path. It’s a shame we have not invested more in many and of course mistakes were made. But you seem so steeped in your student poloitics still, you are unable to see any other argument.
The dystopian picture painted so beautifully by the author is plausible, the reasons (excuses?) for it less so.
My grandparents arrived in this country barely literate, speaking a foreign language, considered alien by the working class families surrounding them in the northern town where they settled. Their children lived in poverty, sharing an outside toilet with other families, yet they were taught to read and write by teachers who really had no great regard for them, and, despite having to leave school at the earliest opportunity to go out and make a living, they thrived, moving around the country when necessary for work, going to night-school to gain qualifications, and their own children – the grandchildren of illiterate foreigners – have degrees, the great-grandchildren of these illiterate immigrants have degrees from Oxford and Cambridge.
Why were my family able to do this? What did they have that these poor downtrodden Durham folk didn’t have? Was it just a lack of self-pity, or the absence of an expectation that it was up to someone else to provide for them?
The dystopian picture painted so beautifully by the author is plausible, the reasons (excuses?) for it less so.
My grandparents arrived in this country barely literate, speaking a foreign language, considered alien by the working class families surrounding them in the northern town where they settled. Their children lived in poverty, sharing an outside toilet with other families, yet they were taught to read and write by teachers who really had no great regard for them, and, despite having to leave school at the earliest opportunity to go out and make a living, they thrived, moving around the country when necessary for work, going to night-school to gain qualifications, and their own children – the grandchildren of illiterate foreigners – have degrees, the great-grandchildren of these illiterate immigrants have degrees from Oxford and Cambridge.
Why were my family able to do this? What did they have that these poor downtrodden Durham folk didn’t have? Was it just a lack of self-pity, or the absence of an expectation that it was up to someone else to provide for them?
As someone whose parent’s live in an ex mining village in Durham, and who is in the process of moving back to the North East, I can’t say I recognise the Author’s description of the region. The Deano meme would be more apt.
Doesn’t sound like you are going back to live in Shotton Colliery
Who actually lives in a Colliery.
Who actually lives in a Colliery.
Doesn’t sound like you are going back to live in Shotton Colliery
As someone whose parent’s live in an ex mining village in Durham, and who is in the process of moving back to the North East, I can’t say I recognise the Author’s description of the region. The Deano meme would be more apt.
Seldom have I come across a man with a bigger chip on his shoulder. Your article sums up everything that is wrong with this country; that is the readiness to blame someone else for your ills. There’s a reason the underclass of Co Durham remain poor and it’s got everything to do with their attitude and little if anything to do with the system. Your inability to accept personal responsibility is not just shameful, it’s disgusting.
Thatcher didn’t close down your industry, the market did. My family lost its livelihood in shipping on the Tyne. It wasn’t any individual’s or the system’s fault, it was because Greek and Japanese builders were more efficient. The Government could have used the money from good businesses to prop up bad businesses but that would have made the country even poorer and could only ever be a short term solution. No Western country can compete with the Far East for industrial manufacturing nowadays so unless the working classes want to accept Chinese level wages, that ship has sailed. We are a service economy now.
Your article, and presumably your book, is based on the false assumption that your poverty is due to market forces and not market intervention. As Charles Munger said, “show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome.” As you describe in the article, Co Durham has a culture of benefit claiming; no one is incentivised to do anything other than continue the path of dependency.
Seldom have I come across a man with a bigger chip on his shoulder. Your article sums up everything that is wrong with this country; that is the readiness to blame someone else for your ills. There’s a reason the underclass of Co Durham remain poor and it’s got everything to do with their attitude and little if anything to do with the system. Your inability to accept personal responsibility is not just shameful, it’s disgusting.
Thatcher didn’t close down your industry, the market did. My family lost its livelihood in shipping on the Tyne. It wasn’t any individual’s or the system’s fault, it was because Greek and Japanese builders were more efficient. The Government could have used the money from good businesses to prop up bad businesses but that would have made the country even poorer and could only ever be a short term solution. No Western country can compete with the Far East for industrial manufacturing nowadays so unless the working classes want to accept Chinese level wages, that ship has sailed. We are a service economy now.
Your article, and presumably your book, is based on the false assumption that your poverty is due to market forces and not market intervention. As Charles Munger said, “show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome.” As you describe in the article, Co Durham has a culture of benefit claiming; no one is incentivised to do anything other than continue the path of dependency.
Britain is like a patient dying of a slow, debilitating disease.
Which came first and worst to the old industrial areas, but has now spread almost everywhere.
The causes go deeper than politics or economics. The central cause is that Britain is post-Christian, having slowly committed the sin of apostasy.
Of which it is now slowly dying.
Nonsense. Apostasy is a weasel term, designed to confuse the simple and the gullible. The medieval period is over.
Nonsense. Apostasy is a weasel term, designed to confuse the simple and the gullible. The medieval period is over.
Britain is like a patient dying of a slow, debilitating disease.
Which came first and worst to the old industrial areas, but has now spread almost everywhere.
The causes go deeper than politics or economics. The central cause is that Britain is post-Christian, having slowly committed the sin of apostasy.
Of which it is now slowly dying.
I was born and grew up in South Shields. After getting a degree from Durham University I moved south to get a job, which has worked out well. It has taken me around the world so I have lived and worked in several different countries.
What I have found is that people generally assess their well being by comparing their lives with others. A country like Switzerland with high levels of devolution and equality produces a population which feels well. The UK, with its excessive centralisation and inequality, generates a lot of resentment. It is not your level of income that counts, but how it compares with that of others in your community.
The recent coronation provided a spectacle, but also lots of food for thought.
It is true that envy is a powerful and universal emotion; we should aspire to better though and not base society on what was once considered a deadly sin. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s Porsche.
It is true that envy is a powerful and universal emotion; we should aspire to better though and not base society on what was once considered a deadly sin. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s Porsche.
I was born and grew up in South Shields. After getting a degree from Durham University I moved south to get a job, which has worked out well. It has taken me around the world so I have lived and worked in several different countries.
What I have found is that people generally assess their well being by comparing their lives with others. A country like Switzerland with high levels of devolution and equality produces a population which feels well. The UK, with its excessive centralisation and inequality, generates a lot of resentment. It is not your level of income that counts, but how it compares with that of others in your community.
The recent coronation provided a spectacle, but also lots of food for thought.
I’m surprised Unherd allowed you to publish this and the reaction to your piece does not surprise me. In the eyes of your critics everything in life is down to individual responsibility and any failure has b****r all to do with economics, poverty, or social and family circumstances.It’s just your laziness you chav. I grew up in poverty but books saved me. I learned to read quite late, at around 6, but once the ‘penny dropped’ I was, and am, an insatiable reader. But that doesn’t make me ‘cleverer’ or ‘more intelligent’ than you (I have never written a book), just more fortunate. I would love to know if youwere ever diagnosed as dyslexic. At the time of the miners strike I and a couple of other formed a miners support group at the London University Institute Of Education and ‘adopted’ Wearmouth. I was never able to go there but many of us did. But several times miners and women came down to London for fundraising and campaigning activities, and I got to know a few. After the defeat the entire community descended into despair. One of the many ironies was that miners had huge levels of home ownership created by the NCB selling off their tens of thousands of houses to miners. Because they owned their houses they couldn’t move away to ‘greener’ pastures unless they could sell their house; but they couldn’t sell them because once the mines were gone there was no economy and no employment so nobody would move there. Within half a decade drug and alcohol addiction became rife, along with domestic violence and crime. Shops closed because nobody had any money to buy anything and these communities entered a downward spiral from which they have never recovered. Within 2 years of the end of the strike four people I knew had committed suicide. We are now entering the 4th generation of people born and brought up in despair. No doubt your critics would say you shouldn’t have children if there are no sprospects for them. That is because they are dessicated souls who have no humanity and have the empathy of traffic bollard and the intellect of billiard balls. I for one will buy your book.
I’m surprised Unherd allowed you to publish this and the reaction to your piece does not surprise me. In the eyes of your critics everything in life is down to individual responsibility and any failure has b****r all to do with economics, poverty, or social and family circumstances.It’s just your laziness you chav. I grew up in poverty but books saved me. I learned to read quite late, at around 6, but once the ‘penny dropped’ I was, and am, an insatiable reader. But that doesn’t make me ‘cleverer’ or ‘more intelligent’ than you (I have never written a book), just more fortunate. I would love to know if youwere ever diagnosed as dyslexic. At the time of the miners strike I and a couple of other formed a miners support group at the London University Institute Of Education and ‘adopted’ Wearmouth. I was never able to go there but many of us did. But several times miners and women came down to London for fundraising and campaigning activities, and I got to know a few. After the defeat the entire community descended into despair. One of the many ironies was that miners had huge levels of home ownership created by the NCB selling off their tens of thousands of houses to miners. Because they owned their houses they couldn’t move away to ‘greener’ pastures unless they could sell their house; but they couldn’t sell them because once the mines were gone there was no economy and no employment so nobody would move there. Within half a decade drug and alcohol addiction became rife, along with domestic violence and crime. Shops closed because nobody had any money to buy anything and these communities entered a downward spiral from which they have never recovered. Within 2 years of the end of the strike four people I knew had committed suicide. We are now entering the 4th generation of people born and brought up in despair. No doubt your critics would say you shouldn’t have children if there are no sprospects for them. That is because they are dessicated souls who have no humanity and have the empathy of traffic bollard and the intellect of billiard balls. I for one will buy your book.
This guy is understandably embittered, and no doubt the social and economic foundations of whole areas were destroyed. But to claim that Margaret Thatcher did this out of pure spite is the most complete nonsense, as is the idea that if we renationalised every industry, things would be marvellous. As they were of course in the 1970s. Nor can the very real failings of the modern police who don’t seem to care any more about combatting crime be blamed on her.
This de-industrialisation phenomenon is not unique to Britain as the author should know, look at Northern France, Belgium, swathes of the Mid West of the US and many other countries. These industries were completely uneconomic by then in the West. Perhaps we should have banned cheaper imports from the rapidly industrialising developing world, but protectionism hasn’t exactly had a good record.
I do think.the author has a point in saying Britain dealt with this legacy particularly poorly, but then we had one of the most concentrated and long established industrial regions anywhere.
This guy is understandably embittered, and no doubt the social and economic foundations of whole areas were destroyed. But to claim that Margaret Thatcher did this out of pure spite is the most complete nonsense, as is the idea that if we renationalised every industry, things would be marvellous. As they were of course in the 1970s. Nor can the very real failings of the modern police who don’t seem to care any more about combatting crime be blamed on her.
This de-industrialisation phenomenon is not unique to Britain as the author should know, look at Northern France, Belgium, swathes of the Mid West of the US and many other countries. These industries were completely uneconomic by then in the West. Perhaps we should have banned cheaper imports from the rapidly industrialising developing world, but protectionism hasn’t exactly had a good record.
I do think.the author has a point in saying Britain dealt with this legacy particularly poorly, but then we had one of the most concentrated and long established industrial regions anywhere.
Socioeconomic Darwinism is not just a British phenomenon, and not confined to specific classes, although those not taught the agility required to live in the 21st century certainly feel the brunt. Frankly, life these days is absolutely terrifying for most people.
Socioeconomic Darwinism is not just a British phenomenon, and not confined to specific classes, although those not taught the agility required to live in the 21st century certainly feel the brunt. Frankly, life these days is absolutely terrifying for most people.
I know staunch Labour supporters like this. They conveniently forget Blair and Brown’s 13 years; that Wilson and Callaghan closed down more pits than Thatcher; that 5 of the last 13 years were partly LibDem; they forget 2008 and Covid. As for the Police, who got Starmer’s ‘Currygate’ ignored? The urban decay and squalor of Biden’s America; Trudeau’s woke fascism against the truckers; the exodus from Venezuela; Sadiq’s London. Labour’s world, not Thatcher’s.
I know staunch Labour supporters like this. They conveniently forget Blair and Brown’s 13 years; that Wilson and Callaghan closed down more pits than Thatcher; that 5 of the last 13 years were partly LibDem; they forget 2008 and Covid. As for the Police, who got Starmer’s ‘Currygate’ ignored? The urban decay and squalor of Biden’s America; Trudeau’s woke fascism against the truckers; the exodus from Venezuela; Sadiq’s London. Labour’s world, not Thatcher’s.
I was not a victim of Thatcherism, by pure chance the house I bought had tripled in value when I sold it because I was moving abroad – a month later the housing crash and many people I knew were in negative equity. It was luck. The article is a valuable reminder of just how much damage Thatcherism caused; this I saw and hated. The catalogue of political actions that damaged British society and benefitted the wealthiest are many – wasting north sea oil revenues along the way – I will give but two things to contemplate which if you heard that they were happening in any other western democratic country would provoke outrage: 1. I attended a open air concert in the grounds of the Greater London Council (GLC) – put on by the then mayor and free to the public. It was attended by all ages and peaceful. The Smiths were playing as I recall – I had a high vantage point and was bemused to suddenly see a gang of hundreds of neo-nazi skinheads sweep through the crowd below kicking and beating people of all ages as they went leaving a blood strewn wake of injured. News reports blamed the GLC and anarchists for this but independent footage revealed that the rioters had actually been ‘escorted’ by police on horse-back who mysteriously opened up to let them run at the crowd.
Subsequent to losing local city elections in London, Manchester, Sheffield etc… Thatcher pushed a bill through parliament abolishing the government of all the cities that voted for the opposition! In London she then sold off the GLC’s buildings to prevent them coming back. Can you imagine this anywhere else? The US President abolishing the governments of San Francisco, New York etc…?? Beggars belief.
“abolishing the government of all the cities that voted for the opposition”
To imply that “Thatcher” left these cities with no local government is just plain dishonest.
“Greater London Council. See, in the UK in the 80s you’d have district councils, for towns/sections of towns, and county councils for larger areas, and the county council handled stuff that was impractical for district govts to handle. The GLC was the London equivalent of a county council.
She shut it down essentially because it was very left wing and it, and its leader Ken Livingstone, were getting too influential. It did not have good results for the city because it made it difficult to have coordinated policies on crime, fire, transport, etc, across the boroughs, which is why a new version of it, the Greater London Authority, with a Mayor, was established in 2000 – and Ken Livingstone was elected as the first Mayor.”
“The Local Government Act 1985 to dissolve the GLC was passed in 1985.
However, abolishing the GLC (which was hugely popular with the majority of Londoners) couldn’t be abolished, until the ACt became law in 1986, because of due parliamentary procedure ahead of GLC elections. An overwhelming win for Labour would have been even more embarrassing for the Conservatives.
But, the Government was able to cancel the election. This has now set a very dangerous legal precedent. A future despotic regime can now claim constitutional authority for cancelling democratic elections. The largely pro Conservative media made light of this blatant power grab.”
“Greater London Council. See, in the UK in the 80s you’d have district councils, for towns/sections of towns, and county councils for larger areas, and the county council handled stuff that was impractical for district govts to handle. The GLC was the London equivalent of a county council.
She shut it down essentially because it was very left wing and it, and its leader Ken Livingstone, were getting too influential. It did not have good results for the city because it made it difficult to have coordinated policies on crime, fire, transport, etc, across the boroughs, which is why a new version of it, the Greater London Authority, with a Mayor, was established in 2000 – and Ken Livingstone was elected as the first Mayor.”
“The Local Government Act 1985 to dissolve the GLC was passed in 1985.
However, abolishing the GLC (which was hugely popular with the majority of Londoners) couldn’t be abolished, until the ACt became law in 1986, because of due parliamentary procedure ahead of GLC elections. An overwhelming win for Labour would have been even more embarrassing for the Conservatives.
But, the Government was able to cancel the election. This has now set a very dangerous legal precedent. A future despotic regime can now claim constitutional authority for cancelling democratic elections. The largely pro Conservative media made light of this blatant power grab.”
“abolishing the government of all the cities that voted for the opposition”
To imply that “Thatcher” left these cities with no local government is just plain dishonest.
I was not a victim of Thatcherism, by pure chance the house I bought had tripled in value when I sold it because I was moving abroad – a month later the housing crash and many people I knew were in negative equity. It was luck. The article is a valuable reminder of just how much damage Thatcherism caused; this I saw and hated. The catalogue of political actions that damaged British society and benefitted the wealthiest are many – wasting north sea oil revenues along the way – I will give but two things to contemplate which if you heard that they were happening in any other western democratic country would provoke outrage: 1. I attended a open air concert in the grounds of the Greater London Council (GLC) – put on by the then mayor and free to the public. It was attended by all ages and peaceful. The Smiths were playing as I recall – I had a high vantage point and was bemused to suddenly see a gang of hundreds of neo-nazi skinheads sweep through the crowd below kicking and beating people of all ages as they went leaving a blood strewn wake of injured. News reports blamed the GLC and anarchists for this but independent footage revealed that the rioters had actually been ‘escorted’ by police on horse-back who mysteriously opened up to let them run at the crowd.
Subsequent to losing local city elections in London, Manchester, Sheffield etc… Thatcher pushed a bill through parliament abolishing the government of all the cities that voted for the opposition! In London she then sold off the GLC’s buildings to prevent them coming back. Can you imagine this anywhere else? The US President abolishing the governments of San Francisco, New York etc…?? Beggars belief.