As a former resident of Germany back in the naughties, I can say that there certainly was still a divide between Wessies and Ossies. Since leaving, I have returned a few times. Covid put a dent in it but I was lucky enough to return last year and I was rather shocked because regional traditions are weaker than they were 20 years ago.
Sure, the period of East and West Germany plus the two World Wars have left a lot of scars on the psyche of this wonderful nation. But I find that mass migration is far more harmful. Being a foreigner, other foreigners were very candid to me about their feelings towards the Germans (which varied from dislike to hatred in general but some still had the odd German friend). Last year it was as if German culture and traditions were irrelevant, more something to remove. Foreigners would often hang in their cultures, dip their toes in others but ignore German things.
The East and West divide is a sad smoke screen. Things like quotas and representation don’t do anything to help anyone. German kids need more support and encouragement than “kinder mit migrations hintergrund”. We foreigners lucky enough to be granted the privilege to live in another country should show a great deal more respect. Instead it is taken for granted. The Germans though no fault of their own are hated in their own country for just being themselves. They never demanded that the foreigners come there. They have been incredibly welcoming, incredibly open. No matter how much they roll out the red carpet, it is just never enough for some.
That’s very interesting Peter. Are you British? How does the integration of foreigners compare between the two countries in your view? It seems to me that integration is pretty much a given here, as seen by the huge number of immigrant’s children in powerful positions – Sunak, Braveman, Cleverly, Priti Patel, Sadiq Khan, now Humza Yousaf. Maybe we go a bit too far – mixed race couples on every advert etc – but I have never experienced an Us and Them distinction between people who’s great-grandparents were English and those whose people arrived more recently. Or am I naive?
I don’t think that you are naive. However, I do think that there is a small, but powerful clique, who are determined that the integration that is still happening in the UK is stopped and reversed. There is another small, but mostly powerless clique, who just hate any foreign-born or -decended person and want them gone. We, rightly, call the latter “racists”, but most people are reluctant to apply the same term to the former – but they should.
That’s right Linda, the Woke Mob are the true enemies of stable integration of immigrants. After all, if the native culture is as hateful as they claim, why should anyone want to assimilate its values? Or if it is immoral to have borders and anyone should be able to come to the country uninvited, why bother integrating at all?
The other clique – the NF types – is barely large enough to fill a parish hall. But the Woke Mob needs to constantly exaggerate their numbers and influence to justify their own designs.
Edit: Not sure why people have downvoted you Linda
I don’t know either, but, unfortunately, this is a common problem on here. I don’t mind discussing points with people who disagree, but if they don’t say what they disagree with then I can’t join in a discussion. It rather closes down any productive dialogue.
Agreed. When I first subscribed to UnHerd I had high hopes for the Comments section. The posts were often quite intelligent and perceptive. I still have hopes, (I suffer from an excess of positive thinking; untreatable, alas). But these days…
Since you explicitly ask, I do not recognise either of the ‘groups’ you describe, and I find your post repellant in its advocacy for the left’s catch-all term of abuse ‘racist’; now so over-used as to have lost all meaning. I’m sorry to see it appearing in a discussion that was otherwise seeming useful and constructive.
Agreed. When I first subscribed to UnHerd I had high hopes for the Comments section. The posts were often quite intelligent and perceptive. I still have hopes, (I suffer from an excess of positive thinking; untreatable, alas). But these days…
Since you explicitly ask, I do not recognise either of the ‘groups’ you describe, and I find your post repellant in its advocacy for the left’s catch-all term of abuse ‘racist’; now so over-used as to have lost all meaning. I’m sorry to see it appearing in a discussion that was otherwise seeming useful and constructive.
I don’t know either, but, unfortunately, this is a common problem on here. I don’t mind discussing points with people who disagree, but if they don’t say what they disagree with then I can’t join in a discussion. It rather closes down any productive dialogue.
Too many foreigners are destructive to indigenous populations anywhere in the world. Whether they are tourists, colonists, refugees or migrants, legal or otherwise, local cultures and the environment are always adversely affected by too many people. Especially by those who do not care to fit in.
It’s about numbers, harmony and integration, not hate or ethnicity. The majority’s sentiments in this regard ought to be respected!
That’s right Linda, the Woke Mob are the true enemies of stable integration of immigrants. After all, if the native culture is as hateful as they claim, why should anyone want to assimilate its values? Or if it is immoral to have borders and anyone should be able to come to the country uninvited, why bother integrating at all?
The other clique – the NF types – is barely large enough to fill a parish hall. But the Woke Mob needs to constantly exaggerate their numbers and influence to justify their own designs.
Edit: Not sure why people have downvoted you Linda
Too many foreigners are destructive to indigenous populations anywhere in the world. Whether they are tourists, colonists, refugees or migrants, legal or otherwise, local cultures and the environment are always adversely affected by too many people. Especially by those who do not care to fit in.
It’s about numbers, harmony and integration, not hate or ethnicity. The majority’s sentiments in this regard ought to be respected!
British people with migrant background, who recently became successful politicians or business people, are mostly second or third generation, therefore well adjusted to this country. In Germany you had/have a huge wave of millions of new immigrants (especially since 2015) , who use up huge resources like housing, welfare etc. and are often resented by the native population, especially in Eastern Germany, where people feel much more patriotic and are sceptical about their willingness to integrate and accept German culture.
On the other hand you had immigrants to former West Germany in the 60s (Italians)and 70s (Turks), who worked as so-called “guest workers” and were actively recruited by German companies. They immediately got jobs and their children are now mostly well adjusted and integrated.
17% of the German population has now a migrant background, and history will show how well the new immigrants, especially the recent wave, will integrate and adjust to German culture.
The mistake has been for a host country not to state what assimilation is required of the immigrant. Then if the immigrant does not wish to assimilate they can leave. it is is like staying in someone’s house, fit in or leave. In France there is the concept of Laicite; if an immigrant finds it unacceptable leave. Another is that all are equal before the law, man or woman,people of all religions or none.
The mistake has been for a host country not to state what assimilation is required of the immigrant. Then if the immigrant does not wish to assimilate they can leave. it is is like staying in someone’s house, fit in or leave. In France there is the concept of Laicite; if an immigrant finds it unacceptable leave. Another is that all are equal before the law, man or woman,people of all religions or none.
I don’t think that you are naive. However, I do think that there is a small, but powerful clique, who are determined that the integration that is still happening in the UK is stopped and reversed. There is another small, but mostly powerless clique, who just hate any foreign-born or -decended person and want them gone. We, rightly, call the latter “racists”, but most people are reluctant to apply the same term to the former – but they should.
British people with migrant background, who recently became successful politicians or business people, are mostly second or third generation, therefore well adjusted to this country. In Germany you had/have a huge wave of millions of new immigrants (especially since 2015) , who use up huge resources like housing, welfare etc. and are often resented by the native population, especially in Eastern Germany, where people feel much more patriotic and are sceptical about their willingness to integrate and accept German culture.
On the other hand you had immigrants to former West Germany in the 60s (Italians)and 70s (Turks), who worked as so-called “guest workers” and were actively recruited by German companies. They immediately got jobs and their children are now mostly well adjusted and integrated.
17% of the German population has now a migrant background, and history will show how well the new immigrants, especially the recent wave, will integrate and adjust to German culture.
“Last year it was as if German culture and traditions were irrelevant, more something to remove” I know nothing directly of modern Germany. But for me ‘German culture’ brings memories of Beethoven, Brahms, Bach, Wagner, Kant, Schopenhauer, Mann, … The greatest contribution of any country to European culture.
That’s very interesting Peter. Are you British? How does the integration of foreigners compare between the two countries in your view? It seems to me that integration is pretty much a given here, as seen by the huge number of immigrant’s children in powerful positions – Sunak, Braveman, Cleverly, Priti Patel, Sadiq Khan, now Humza Yousaf. Maybe we go a bit too far – mixed race couples on every advert etc – but I have never experienced an Us and Them distinction between people who’s great-grandparents were English and those whose people arrived more recently. Or am I naive?
“Last year it was as if German culture and traditions were irrelevant, more something to remove” I know nothing directly of modern Germany. But for me ‘German culture’ brings memories of Beethoven, Brahms, Bach, Wagner, Kant, Schopenhauer, Mann, … The greatest contribution of any country to European culture.
Peter D
1 year ago
As a former resident of Germany back in the naughties, I can say that there certainly was still a divide between Wessies and Ossies. Since leaving, I have returned a few times. Covid put a dent in it but I was lucky enough to return last year and I was rather shocked because regional traditions are weaker than they were 20 years ago.
Sure, the period of East and West Germany plus the two World Wars have left a lot of scars on the psyche of this wonderful nation. But I find that mass migration is far more harmful. Being a foreigner, other foreigners were very candid to me about their feelings towards the Germans (which varied from dislike to hatred in general but some still had the odd German friend). Last year it was as if German culture and traditions were irrelevant, more something to remove. Foreigners would often hang in their cultures, dip their toes in others but ignore German things.
The East and West divide is a sad smoke screen. Things like quotas and representation don’t do anything to help anyone. German kids need more support and encouragement than “kinder mit migrations hintergrund”. We foreigners lucky enough to be granted the privilege to live in another country should show a great deal more respect. Instead it is taken for granted. The Germans though no fault of their own are hated in their own country for just being themselves. They never demanded that the foreigners come there. They have been incredibly welcoming, incredibly open. No matter how much they roll out the red carpet, it is just never enough for some.
Josef O
1 year ago
How could Germany accept to have a Prime Minister without a democratic upbringing for 16 years is beyond me. And it shows.
It always amuses me that those who maintain that the act of crossing the border into the UK makes migrants British are the first to point out that our monarchy had German roots centuries ago.
It always amuses me that those who maintain that the act of crossing the border into the UK makes migrants British are the first to point out that our monarchy had German roots centuries ago.
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
It always amuses me how few people in Britain forget that we have a German Royal Family!
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Interesting article. Just shows how quickly an imposed border seeps into minds.
The Eastern and Western European mental border is still very powerful…Norman Davies book on the subject highly recommended.
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Interesting article. Just shows how quickly an imposed border seeps into minds.
John Hicks
1 year ago
An interesting and helpful article. Dr.Hoyer has the ability, and scholarship capable of “joining the dots” where most of us are barely able to grasp the completed “big picture.” Many thanks.
John Hicks
1 year ago
An interesting and helpful article. Dr.Hoyer has the ability, and scholarship capable of “joining the dots” where most of us are barely able to grasp the completed “big picture.” Many thanks.
B Timothy
1 year ago
They really ought to restore the Kaiser, but Lord knows the Germans are far too rational a people for something so intelligent.
B Timothy
1 year ago
They really ought to restore the Kaiser, but Lord knows the Germans are far too rational a people for something so intelligent.
Ben Shipley
1 year ago
France is not tearing itself apart. The east-west divide in Germany is no worse than the divide in other countries between regions separated by geography and culture. The last thing Germany needs now is to cloud its peaceful ascendancy in Europe by bringing back the jackboots. Only in the Anglo world, and especially in the US, do you hear that it’s time for a return of the German military. German tanks rolling into Ukraine? Good grief.
Ben Shipley
1 year ago
France is not tearing itself apart. The east-west divide in Germany is no worse than the divide in other countries between regions separated by geography and culture. The last thing Germany needs now is to cloud its peaceful ascendancy in Europe by bringing back the jackboots. Only in the Anglo world, and especially in the US, do you hear that it’s time for a return of the German military. German tanks rolling into Ukraine? Good grief.
As a former resident of Germany back in the naughties, I can say that there certainly was still a divide between Wessies and Ossies. Since leaving, I have returned a few times. Covid put a dent in it but I was lucky enough to return last year and I was rather shocked because regional traditions are weaker than they were 20 years ago.
Sure, the period of East and West Germany plus the two World Wars have left a lot of scars on the psyche of this wonderful nation. But I find that mass migration is far more harmful. Being a foreigner, other foreigners were very candid to me about their feelings towards the Germans (which varied from dislike to hatred in general but some still had the odd German friend). Last year it was as if German culture and traditions were irrelevant, more something to remove. Foreigners would often hang in their cultures, dip their toes in others but ignore German things.
The East and West divide is a sad smoke screen. Things like quotas and representation don’t do anything to help anyone. German kids need more support and encouragement than “kinder mit migrations hintergrund”. We foreigners lucky enough to be granted the privilege to live in another country should show a great deal more respect. Instead it is taken for granted. The Germans though no fault of their own are hated in their own country for just being themselves. They never demanded that the foreigners come there. They have been incredibly welcoming, incredibly open. No matter how much they roll out the red carpet, it is just never enough for some.
That’s very interesting Peter. Are you British? How does the integration of foreigners compare between the two countries in your view? It seems to me that integration is pretty much a given here, as seen by the huge number of immigrant’s children in powerful positions – Sunak, Braveman, Cleverly, Priti Patel, Sadiq Khan, now Humza Yousaf. Maybe we go a bit too far – mixed race couples on every advert etc – but I have never experienced an Us and Them distinction between people who’s great-grandparents were English and those whose people arrived more recently. Or am I naive?
I don’t think that you are naive. However, I do think that there is a small, but powerful clique, who are determined that the integration that is still happening in the UK is stopped and reversed. There is another small, but mostly powerless clique, who just hate any foreign-born or -decended person and want them gone. We, rightly, call the latter “racists”, but most people are reluctant to apply the same term to the former – but they should.
That’s right Linda, the Woke Mob are the true enemies of stable integration of immigrants. After all, if the native culture is as hateful as they claim, why should anyone want to assimilate its values? Or if it is immoral to have borders and anyone should be able to come to the country uninvited, why bother integrating at all?
The other clique – the NF types – is barely large enough to fill a parish hall. But the Woke Mob needs to constantly exaggerate their numbers and influence to justify their own designs.
Edit: Not sure why people have downvoted you Linda
I don’t know either, but, unfortunately, this is a common problem on here. I don’t mind discussing points with people who disagree, but if they don’t say what they disagree with then I can’t join in a discussion. It rather closes down any productive dialogue.
Agreed. When I first subscribed to UnHerd I had high hopes for the Comments section. The posts were often quite intelligent and perceptive. I still have hopes, (I suffer from an excess of positive thinking; untreatable, alas). But these days…
Since you explicitly ask, I do not recognise either of the ‘groups’ you describe, and I find your post repellant in its advocacy for the left’s catch-all term of abuse ‘racist’; now so over-used as to have lost all meaning. I’m sorry to see it appearing in a discussion that was otherwise seeming useful and constructive.
Agreed. When I first subscribed to UnHerd I had high hopes for the Comments section. The posts were often quite intelligent and perceptive. I still have hopes, (I suffer from an excess of positive thinking; untreatable, alas). But these days…
Since you explicitly ask, I do not recognise either of the ‘groups’ you describe, and I find your post repellant in its advocacy for the left’s catch-all term of abuse ‘racist’; now so over-used as to have lost all meaning. I’m sorry to see it appearing in a discussion that was otherwise seeming useful and constructive.
I don’t know either, but, unfortunately, this is a common problem on here. I don’t mind discussing points with people who disagree, but if they don’t say what they disagree with then I can’t join in a discussion. It rather closes down any productive dialogue.
Too many foreigners are destructive to indigenous populations anywhere in the world. Whether they are tourists, colonists, refugees or migrants, legal or otherwise, local cultures and the environment are always adversely affected by too many people. Especially by those who do not care to fit in.
It’s about numbers, harmony and integration, not hate or ethnicity. The majority’s sentiments in this regard ought to be respected!
That’s right Linda, the Woke Mob are the true enemies of stable integration of immigrants. After all, if the native culture is as hateful as they claim, why should anyone want to assimilate its values? Or if it is immoral to have borders and anyone should be able to come to the country uninvited, why bother integrating at all?
The other clique – the NF types – is barely large enough to fill a parish hall. But the Woke Mob needs to constantly exaggerate their numbers and influence to justify their own designs.
Edit: Not sure why people have downvoted you Linda
Too many foreigners are destructive to indigenous populations anywhere in the world. Whether they are tourists, colonists, refugees or migrants, legal or otherwise, local cultures and the environment are always adversely affected by too many people. Especially by those who do not care to fit in.
It’s about numbers, harmony and integration, not hate or ethnicity. The majority’s sentiments in this regard ought to be respected!
British people with migrant background, who recently became successful politicians or business people, are mostly second or third generation, therefore well adjusted to this country. In Germany you had/have a huge wave of millions of new immigrants (especially since 2015) , who use up huge resources like housing, welfare etc. and are often resented by the native population, especially in Eastern Germany, where people feel much more patriotic and are sceptical about their willingness to integrate and accept German culture.
On the other hand you had immigrants to former West Germany in the 60s (Italians)and 70s (Turks), who worked as so-called “guest workers” and were actively recruited by German companies. They immediately got jobs and their children are now mostly well adjusted and integrated.
17% of the German population has now a migrant background, and history will show how well the new immigrants, especially the recent wave, will integrate and adjust to German culture.
Thanks Stephanie, makes sense. I guess Peter was referring to Merkel’s Wir Schaffen Das immigrants rather than those from earlier waves.
The mistake has been for a host country not to state what assimilation is required of the immigrant. Then if the immigrant does not wish to assimilate they can leave. it is is like staying in someone’s house, fit in or leave. In France there is the concept of Laicite; if an immigrant finds it unacceptable leave. Another is that all are equal before the law, man or woman,people of all religions or none.
Thanks Stephanie, makes sense. I guess Peter was referring to Merkel’s Wir Schaffen Das immigrants rather than those from earlier waves.
The mistake has been for a host country not to state what assimilation is required of the immigrant. Then if the immigrant does not wish to assimilate they can leave. it is is like staying in someone’s house, fit in or leave. In France there is the concept of Laicite; if an immigrant finds it unacceptable leave. Another is that all are equal before the law, man or woman,people of all religions or none.
I don’t think that you are naive. However, I do think that there is a small, but powerful clique, who are determined that the integration that is still happening in the UK is stopped and reversed. There is another small, but mostly powerless clique, who just hate any foreign-born or -decended person and want them gone. We, rightly, call the latter “racists”, but most people are reluctant to apply the same term to the former – but they should.
British people with migrant background, who recently became successful politicians or business people, are mostly second or third generation, therefore well adjusted to this country. In Germany you had/have a huge wave of millions of new immigrants (especially since 2015) , who use up huge resources like housing, welfare etc. and are often resented by the native population, especially in Eastern Germany, where people feel much more patriotic and are sceptical about their willingness to integrate and accept German culture.
On the other hand you had immigrants to former West Germany in the 60s (Italians)and 70s (Turks), who worked as so-called “guest workers” and were actively recruited by German companies. They immediately got jobs and their children are now mostly well adjusted and integrated.
17% of the German population has now a migrant background, and history will show how well the new immigrants, especially the recent wave, will integrate and adjust to German culture.
“Last year it was as if German culture and traditions were irrelevant, more something to remove” I know nothing directly of modern Germany. But for me ‘German culture’ brings memories of Beethoven, Brahms, Bach, Wagner, Kant, Schopenhauer, Mann, … The greatest contribution of any country to European culture.
That’s very interesting Peter. Are you British? How does the integration of foreigners compare between the two countries in your view? It seems to me that integration is pretty much a given here, as seen by the huge number of immigrant’s children in powerful positions – Sunak, Braveman, Cleverly, Priti Patel, Sadiq Khan, now Humza Yousaf. Maybe we go a bit too far – mixed race couples on every advert etc – but I have never experienced an Us and Them distinction between people who’s great-grandparents were English and those whose people arrived more recently. Or am I naive?
“Last year it was as if German culture and traditions were irrelevant, more something to remove” I know nothing directly of modern Germany. But for me ‘German culture’ brings memories of Beethoven, Brahms, Bach, Wagner, Kant, Schopenhauer, Mann, … The greatest contribution of any country to European culture.
As a former resident of Germany back in the naughties, I can say that there certainly was still a divide between Wessies and Ossies. Since leaving, I have returned a few times. Covid put a dent in it but I was lucky enough to return last year and I was rather shocked because regional traditions are weaker than they were 20 years ago.
Sure, the period of East and West Germany plus the two World Wars have left a lot of scars on the psyche of this wonderful nation. But I find that mass migration is far more harmful. Being a foreigner, other foreigners were very candid to me about their feelings towards the Germans (which varied from dislike to hatred in general but some still had the odd German friend). Last year it was as if German culture and traditions were irrelevant, more something to remove. Foreigners would often hang in their cultures, dip their toes in others but ignore German things.
The East and West divide is a sad smoke screen. Things like quotas and representation don’t do anything to help anyone. German kids need more support and encouragement than “kinder mit migrations hintergrund”. We foreigners lucky enough to be granted the privilege to live in another country should show a great deal more respect. Instead it is taken for granted. The Germans though no fault of their own are hated in their own country for just being themselves. They never demanded that the foreigners come there. They have been incredibly welcoming, incredibly open. No matter how much they roll out the red carpet, it is just never enough for some.
How could Germany accept to have a Prime Minister without a democratic upbringing for 16 years is beyond me. And it shows.
More and more convinced every day that she was an asset.
More and more convinced every day that she was an asset.
How could Germany accept to have a Prime Minister without a democratic upbringing for 16 years is beyond me. And it shows.
It always amuses me how few people in Britain forget that we have a German Royal Family!
It always amuses me that those who maintain that the act of crossing the border into the UK makes migrants British are the first to point out that our monarchy had German roots centuries ago.
It always amuses me that those who maintain that the act of crossing the border into the UK makes migrants British are the first to point out that our monarchy had German roots centuries ago.
It always amuses me how few people in Britain forget that we have a German Royal Family!
Interesting article. Just shows how quickly an imposed border seeps into minds.
The Eastern and Western European mental border is still very powerful…Norman Davies book on the subject highly recommended.
The Eastern and Western European mental border is still very powerful…Norman Davies book on the subject highly recommended.
Interesting article. Just shows how quickly an imposed border seeps into minds.
An interesting and helpful article. Dr.Hoyer has the ability, and scholarship capable of “joining the dots” where most of us are barely able to grasp the completed “big picture.” Many thanks.
An interesting and helpful article. Dr.Hoyer has the ability, and scholarship capable of “joining the dots” where most of us are barely able to grasp the completed “big picture.” Many thanks.
They really ought to restore the Kaiser, but Lord knows the Germans are far too rational a people for something so intelligent.
They really ought to restore the Kaiser, but Lord knows the Germans are far too rational a people for something so intelligent.
France is not tearing itself apart. The east-west divide in Germany is no worse than the divide in other countries between regions separated by geography and culture. The last thing Germany needs now is to cloud its peaceful ascendancy in Europe by bringing back the jackboots. Only in the Anglo world, and especially in the US, do you hear that it’s time for a return of the German military. German tanks rolling into Ukraine? Good grief.
France is not tearing itself apart. The east-west divide in Germany is no worse than the divide in other countries between regions separated by geography and culture. The last thing Germany needs now is to cloud its peaceful ascendancy in Europe by bringing back the jackboots. Only in the Anglo world, and especially in the US, do you hear that it’s time for a return of the German military. German tanks rolling into Ukraine? Good grief.
Insightful.