A fascinating delve into events a century ago, brought forth as Ulster returns to political prominence. The intervention of the First World War in particular adds to the context, and reminds us of how conflagrations such as in Ukraine need to be very carefully managed from a domestic point of view.
My grandfather was part of the Irish diaspora that landed in Liverpool. Many others landed in New York, and continue to shape US politics and its influence on the UK to this day.
A very welcome history lesson then, especially as the value of factual history is brought into focus as never before. Also revealed, is our collective ability to forget, and how fragments of past conflicts still play out, often without much comprehension to the majority of us.
Please be aware that ⅓ of Ulster is in the Republic’ ie Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan.. the term your looking for is “Northern Ireland” itself a misnomer: it should be called Northeast Ireland since the island’s most northerly point, Nalin Head is in Donegal, Ulster, Republic of Ireland.
I was not specifically aware of this – but thank you. I dotn know how that border came about – but I always thought it was rather odd.
but since I dont know the borders origins, I will leave it there.
Armagh, Down, Antrim, Derry were majority unionist at the time of partition. Unionists felt they could only control about 6 counties. 4 were seen to be too little. Fermanagh and Tyrone were majority catholic but only about 55% as opposed to the other 3 counties of Ulster (Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal) which were at least 2/3 catholic.
Armagh, Down, Antrim, Derry were majority unionist at the time of partition. Unionists felt they could only control about 6 counties. 4 were seen to be too little. Fermanagh and Tyrone were majority catholic but only about 55% as opposed to the other 3 counties of Ulster (Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal) which were at least 2/3 catholic.
I was not specifically aware of this – but thank you. I dotn know how that border came about – but I always thought it was rather odd.
but since I dont know the borders origins, I will leave it there.
US Politics is shaped by very many ethnic groups, and very many influences far beyond ethnicity – lets not overdo it.
I agree at the moment the self-styled ‘Irish’ Biden (whose main roots came from Berkshire) has trumpetted that ”I’m Irish’ – a rather strange remark sicne I dont think he looks 250 years old. Or perhaps he does!
Please be aware that ⅓ of Ulster is in the Republic’ ie Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan.. the term your looking for is “Northern Ireland” itself a misnomer: it should be called Northeast Ireland since the island’s most northerly point, Nalin Head is in Donegal, Ulster, Republic of Ireland.
US Politics is shaped by very many ethnic groups, and very many influences far beyond ethnicity – lets not overdo it.
I agree at the moment the self-styled ‘Irish’ Biden (whose main roots came from Berkshire) has trumpetted that ”I’m Irish’ – a rather strange remark sicne I dont think he looks 250 years old. Or perhaps he does!
Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Steve Murray
1 year ago
A fascinating delve into events a century ago, brought forth as Ulster returns to political prominence. The intervention of the First World War in particular adds to the context, and reminds us of how conflagrations such as in Ukraine need to be very carefully managed from a domestic point of view.
My grandfather was part of the Irish diaspora that landed in Liverpool. Many others landed in New York, and continue to shape US politics and its influence on the UK to this day.
A very welcome history lesson then, especially as the value of factual history is brought into focus as never before. Also revealed, is our collective ability to forget, and how fragments of past conflicts still play out, often without much comprehension to the majority of us.
Andrew D
1 year ago
Fascinating essay. Worth recalling that Liverpool’s Anglican cathedral, foundation stone laid by King Edward VII in 1904, was taller and larger than any medieval cathedral in the country and built at a high point in the city – an assertion of dominance by the Protestant establishment in a largely Catholic city. But to add nuance, its architect (Giles Gilbert Scott) was a Catholic.
Off-piste:
Liverpool Cathedral is in fact, as you know, the largest Cathedral in the country and to compare to it is medieval predecessors is slightly invidious don’t you think.?
Surely it would be better to preface any mention of it with the words Gothic Revival or even neo-gothic?
Either way it beats the Catholic effort, the now rather dilapidated ‘Paddy’s Wigwam’.
Both stand/stood out on the skyline from my former class room on the 3rd floor of SFX (then a Grammar) at the top of Quarry Street, Woolton. The Quarry being, so I understand, the source of the Cathedral’s sandstone, and quarried right next to the Catholic Church of St Mary Woolton.
Also, an interesting aspect of Irish/English Catholicism and epidemics is recorded here where 9 of the 10 ‘Martyr’ priests tending their Irish flock, were English. https://www.liverpoolmonuments.co.uk/pat01.html
Slavery is one band-wagon I refuse to apologise for. I had nothign to do with it and wont apologise for the people that did – in very different tiems.
The real questions are never asked:
1) Who SOLD the slaves to The Europeans (not just The British) in the first place? – The Black Tribe Chiefs of Africa did, and made their fortunes.
2) Where did they get the slaves? – They fought internal wars and captured the enemy (not killed them) then sold them on to make their fortunes.
The Europeans did not raid and capture slaves but went throguh the original Slave Traders based on land. Africans shoudl also check their roots! Many of the Slave Trader decendants are walking the earth today.
3) Did The British create the Slave Trade? – No of coruse, not – the internal slave trade was a thriving business for many thousands of years all over the populated World (AKA The Romans and Aincient Chinese/Gengis Khan etc.,) – not least of which The Pyramids were built by African Slaves for African Pharoes.
4) How did the Slave trade end? – In simple terms ”The British ended it” – virtually single handidly.
5) Anything else? – YES – The British created special zones in Africa for Slaves they captured from other slave trading ships (Portuguise, American, Spanish etal) – those zones are even today called ”Freetown”. Conclusion:
No, I am not apologising for it – and freankly am fed up of the onslaught by 4% of UK population, harranging the other 96%.
3) Did The British create the Slave Trade?
Even beyond your answer, the answer is no. The Atlantic slave trade was created by the Portuguese and Spanish to feed their empires in S America. The British really only ramped up activity after the Treaty of Utrecht (1713) at the end of the war of Spanish Succession broke up the Latin slave trade monopoly.
3) Did The British create the Slave Trade?
Even beyond your answer, the answer is no. The Atlantic slave trade was created by the Portuguese and Spanish to feed their empires in S America. The British really only ramped up activity after the Treaty of Utrecht (1713) at the end of the war of Spanish Succession broke up the Latin slave trade monopoly.
‘not sure if you’re aware some 50,000 Irish slaves sent by Cromwell to the Carolinas? Few descendants though.. they died like flies in the weather conditions unlike their black counterparts who were more suited to hot humid conditions..
Yes, weren’t they called ‘Indentured Labour’?
As I recall quite a few thousand Scotch also suffered the same fate. “Vae Victis”!
Incidentally we also shipped thousands of English criminals to the American Colonies up until 1776-83. It was a ‘woke’ alternative to hanging them.
After we granted the US independence, we HAD to find somewhere else, hence Mr Cook and Botany Bay in 1788!
Yes – but Cromwell also terrorised The English dont forget – not somethign taught in irish Schoolls I know. But Cromwell was a tyrant in England as much as Ireland.
By the way – something else not taught in Ireland – Cromwell was decended from Irish immigrants to England. (I know – shocking isnt it? – rather like St Patrick actually being British and not Irish)
Yes, weren’t they called ‘Indentured Labour’?
As I recall quite a few thousand Scotch also suffered the same fate. “Vae Victis”!
Incidentally we also shipped thousands of English criminals to the American Colonies up until 1776-83. It was a ‘woke’ alternative to hanging them.
After we granted the US independence, we HAD to find somewhere else, hence Mr Cook and Botany Bay in 1788!
Yes – but Cromwell also terrorised The English dont forget – not somethign taught in irish Schoolls I know. But Cromwell was a tyrant in England as much as Ireland.
By the way – something else not taught in Ireland – Cromwell was decended from Irish immigrants to England. (I know – shocking isnt it? – rather like St Patrick actually being British and not Irish)
Both stand/stood out on the skyline from my former class room on the 3rd floor of SFX (then a Grammar) at the top of Quarry Street, Woolton. The Quarry being, so I understand, the source of the Cathedral’s sandstone, and quarried right next to the Catholic Church of St Mary Woolton.
Also, an interesting aspect of Irish/English Catholicism and epidemics is recorded here where 9 of the 10 ‘Martyr’ priests tending their Irish flock, were English. https://www.liverpoolmonuments.co.uk/pat01.html
Slavery is one band-wagon I refuse to apologise for. I had nothign to do with it and wont apologise for the people that did – in very different tiems.
The real questions are never asked:
1) Who SOLD the slaves to The Europeans (not just The British) in the first place? – The Black Tribe Chiefs of Africa did, and made their fortunes.
2) Where did they get the slaves? – They fought internal wars and captured the enemy (not killed them) then sold them on to make their fortunes.
The Europeans did not raid and capture slaves but went throguh the original Slave Traders based on land. Africans shoudl also check their roots! Many of the Slave Trader decendants are walking the earth today.
3) Did The British create the Slave Trade? – No of coruse, not – the internal slave trade was a thriving business for many thousands of years all over the populated World (AKA The Romans and Aincient Chinese/Gengis Khan etc.,) – not least of which The Pyramids were built by African Slaves for African Pharoes.
4) How did the Slave trade end? – In simple terms ”The British ended it” – virtually single handidly.
5) Anything else? – YES – The British created special zones in Africa for Slaves they captured from other slave trading ships (Portuguise, American, Spanish etal) – those zones are even today called ”Freetown”. Conclusion:
No, I am not apologising for it – and freankly am fed up of the onslaught by 4% of UK population, harranging the other 96%.
‘not sure if you’re aware some 50,000 Irish slaves sent by Cromwell to the Carolinas? Few descendants though.. they died like flies in the weather conditions unlike their black counterparts who were more suited to hot humid conditions..
As a native – I can concur – its still known as that today.
Why are people such wimps these days? – where no one can have a laugh – and everyone gets ”offended” (or pretends to) over everything.
I have ginger hair for Gods sake, I have to live with THAT – a far worse fate that a nickname for an inanimate (irrelevent?) building – and I take all the ribbing (fun/piss take – call it what you like) that goes with it.
By the way had The Catholics built the original planned Cathederal- no one would have called it anythign other than magnificent!
Relax!
As a native – I can concur – its still known as that today.
Why are people such wimps these days? – where no one can have a laugh – and everyone gets ”offended” (or pretends to) over everything.
I have ginger hair for Gods sake, I have to live with THAT – a far worse fate that a nickname for an inanimate (irrelevent?) building – and I take all the ribbing (fun/piss take – call it what you like) that goes with it.
By the way had The Catholics built the original planned Cathederal- no one would have called it anythign other than magnificent!
Relax!
I think this confirms how little regard to ones religeon the vast majority of English people really have. I cannot same the same for everywhere however. I belive he also did the Majestic Gothic ”cathederal” St Pancras Station – perhaps the most glorious building in London?
Off-piste:
Liverpool Cathedral is in fact, as you know, the largest Cathedral in the country and to compare to it is medieval predecessors is slightly invidious don’t you think.?
Surely it would be better to preface any mention of it with the words Gothic Revival or even neo-gothic?
Either way it beats the Catholic effort, the now rather dilapidated ‘Paddy’s Wigwam’.
I think this confirms how little regard to ones religeon the vast majority of English people really have. I cannot same the same for everywhere however. I belive he also did the Majestic Gothic ”cathederal” St Pancras Station – perhaps the most glorious building in London?
Andrew D
1 year ago
Fascinating essay. Worth recalling that Liverpool’s Anglican cathedral, foundation stone laid by King Edward VII in 1904, was taller and larger than any medieval cathedral in the country and built at a high point in the city – an assertion of dominance by the Protestant establishment in a largely Catholic city. But to add nuance, its architect (Giles Gilbert Scott) was a Catholic.
Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew D
Ian McKinney
1 year ago
Wonderful piece. Dan Jackson is a wonderfully skilled writer. Amazing how we can be so short termist in our day to day political thinking yet actually deep politics moves at glacial speed.
…if we don’t know where we came from we don’t really know where we are; and perhsps don’t know where we are going to?
It might also be useful to consider European “Unionism” and expected the comparison of GB desperately wanting out (like Ireland wanted out of the UK in 1920s) and those of us who want to stay in the European Union (like Ireland in the 2020s!).. then move on to a majority in NI and in Scotland wanting to stay in the EU as well! ..and NI still in the Single Market.. the INs and OUTs of it all, eh?
Typically (except Germany who have other reasons for staying in Their EU) Europsceptamism increases as countries become large net contributors.
UK and Germany alone funded Germany’s EU for decades.
Without UK overseas aid contribution to EU of £20bn (including VAT and Customs duties share) other countries are now net contributors – but most (for the moment) only small net – as those sums grow larger so does eurosceptamism. Rightly local tax-payers start questioning (as they did in UK) where all the cash is squandered. Check out the accession countries lined up now!
Anyone who does not realise its Germany (with 25% of The EU GDP) that calls the EU shots, does not know enough.
Typically (except Germany who have other reasons for staying in Their EU) Europsceptamism increases as countries become large net contributors.
UK and Germany alone funded Germany’s EU for decades.
Without UK overseas aid contribution to EU of £20bn (including VAT and Customs duties share) other countries are now net contributors – but most (for the moment) only small net – as those sums grow larger so does eurosceptamism. Rightly local tax-payers start questioning (as they did in UK) where all the cash is squandered. Check out the accession countries lined up now!
Anyone who does not realise its Germany (with 25% of The EU GDP) that calls the EU shots, does not know enough.
…if we don’t know where we came from we don’t really know where we are; and perhsps don’t know where we are going to?
It might also be useful to consider European “Unionism” and expected the comparison of GB desperately wanting out (like Ireland wanted out of the UK in 1920s) and those of us who want to stay in the European Union (like Ireland in the 2020s!).. then move on to a majority in NI and in Scotland wanting to stay in the EU as well! ..and NI still in the Single Market.. the INs and OUTs of it all, eh?
Ian McKinney
1 year ago
Wonderful piece. Dan Jackson is a wonderfully skilled writer. Amazing how we can be so short termist in our day to day political thinking yet actually deep politics moves at glacial speed.
David Hedley
1 year ago
An interesting article, and in particular this;
Indeed, the nexus between the Lagan, Mersey, Clyde and Tyne formed a kind of northern industrial zone that featured prominently on the itineraries of Carson and others.
I think it is worth mentioning that during much of the period covered by the article, Dublin was considered the second city of the British Empire, and hence the Liffey could probably be added to that confluence of rivers.
It’s surprising that Charles Stewart Parnell is not mentioned once. Indeed, had he not had an adulterous affair, the future of Ireland would almost certainly have followed a different course, notwithstanding Carson’s stand in the North.
I’d also mention that Liverpool’s history as one of the main ports of the Empire is fascinating. The Irish certainly play a major part in this, but so do many others, including Chinese and Africans.
Indeed, the nexus between the Lagan, Mersey, Clyde and Tyne formed a kind of northern industrial zone that featured prominently on the itineraries of Carson and others.
I think it is worth mentioning that during much of the period covered by the article, Dublin was considered the second city of the British Empire, and hence the Liffey could probably be added to that confluence of rivers.
It’s surprising that Charles Stewart Parnell is not mentioned once. Indeed, had he not had an adulterous affair, the future of Ireland would almost certainly have followed a different course, notwithstanding Carson’s stand in the North.
I’d also mention that Liverpool’s history as one of the main ports of the Empire is fascinating. The Irish certainly play a major part in this, but so do many others, including Chinese and Africans.
Last edited 1 year ago by David Hedley
Peter Quasi-Modo
1 year ago
A great article. Unherd please note: more like this, please! Here in Scotland, the Conservative Party’s full name is “The Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party”. The magic word “Unionist” can still garner a few votes for them in working class areas. In 1959, more than 50% of all the votes cast were for the Conservatives. Even Edinburgh had a Protestant Action councillor, John Cormack, who was elected on an anti-Catholic ticket from 1934 until the 1960’s when he retired.
Certain groups of people like to cast themselves in the role of victim: “our heritage is under threat”, even though their heritage apparently largely consists entirely of being obnoxious to people who are not of their heritage. In Scotland, they see the Nicola Sturgeon and co. as just the sort of threat they need as the basis of grievance. We have not seen the last of them.
I notice John Cormack lacks a Mac / Mc in his name.. during the famine in Ireland soup was given to those happy to drop the Mc or O’ in their name and an extra bowl if they renounced their (Roman) Catholicism in favour of Anglicanism. Was John Cormack a “souper” as they are termed?
That’s the title of the whole Conservative Party. Johnston played it during his attempts to assure Unionists that his Brexit protocol wouldn’t be a problem.
I notice John Cormack lacks a Mac / Mc in his name.. during the famine in Ireland soup was given to those happy to drop the Mc or O’ in their name and an extra bowl if they renounced their (Roman) Catholicism in favour of Anglicanism. Was John Cormack a “souper” as they are termed?
That’s the title of the whole Conservative Party. Johnston played it during his attempts to assure Unionists that his Brexit protocol wouldn’t be a problem.
Peter Quasi-Modo
1 year ago
A great article. Unherd please note: more like this, please! Here in Scotland, the Conservative Party’s full name is “The Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party”. The magic word “Unionist” can still garner a few votes for them in working class areas. In 1959, more than 50% of all the votes cast were for the Conservatives. Even Edinburgh had a Protestant Action councillor, John Cormack, who was elected on an anti-Catholic ticket from 1934 until the 1960’s when he retired.
Certain groups of people like to cast themselves in the role of victim: “our heritage is under threat”, even though their heritage apparently largely consists entirely of being obnoxious to people who are not of their heritage. In Scotland, they see the Nicola Sturgeon and co. as just the sort of threat they need as the basis of grievance. We have not seen the last of them.
Dermot O'Sullivan
1 year ago
In 1829 we had Catholic Emancipation, which was to eventually turn the tide in Ireland but would make little or no difference in Britain (I assume). Just over 15 years later we had the Great Famine, an event just as significant in later social and political developments. The thread of history does not run in a straight line.
Dermot O'Sullivan
1 year ago
In 1829 we had Catholic Emancipation, which was to eventually turn the tide in Ireland but would make little or no difference in Britain (I assume). Just over 15 years later we had the Great Famine, an event just as significant in later social and political developments. The thread of history does not run in a straight line.
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
How I love telling foreign football fans that here in now neo pagan Britain, football clubs in Liverpool, Manchester and Edinburgh are based on Christian religious division… the look on their faces is amazing!!!
I also enjoy explaining that in the Island of Ireland, the Church of Ireland and The Roman Catholic church have no border, but the Presbyterian Church is a Northern Irish peculiarity…. and that the majority of the aristocratic land owners in The Republic are of English descent and live their happily as members of The Church of England or Ireland.
As with India, Ireland was never a single state until the British arrived Though in the case of Ireland, it was the Normans, conquerors of England & the English. They took the invitation to Ireland to fight for the minor King Diarmait MacMurrough and eventually ended up fighting for themselves.
Diarmut, was
“the King of Leinster in the 1160s. At this point in the country’s history, there was no one central ruler, but rather a number of separate kingdoms – kingdoms that were often at war with each other.”
According to the link below. Though by 1160, the ‘Normans’ had become ‘Anglo Normans’, apparently. https://ireland-calling.com/diarmait-macmurrough/
Seems he wasn’t one of the brightest Kings around, or else he didn’t know much about Normans. They’d already taken a chunk of France, then all of England, were busy trying to take all of Wales and he offers them a chance of Ireland.
Just as the English took root in Ireland, so my family took root in England, and I’m proud to have Liverpool Irish heritage, but wouldn’t swap my English citizenship. What ‘Irish’ family and acquaintances my family had, behaving despicably to an English (that was their view of her) born second generation Irish wife mean I’ve never visited and have no desire to do so.
If NI joins the Republic it wouldn’t bother me at all. Though I suspect I’d revel in Schadenfreude as the EU, Irish State and the US had to cope with an influx of so many ‘foreigners’ – and I include the NI Catholics in that group. Be wary what you wish for, would be my advice to the Irish Nationalists.
Which precedents also suggest another step. When can we English demand that Wales and Scotland ‘unite’ with England and become England , and we can ditch the UK? After all, it is a single Island! We wouldn’t need any Brexit deal then either. 😉
Don’t you think it is a little anachronistic to keep calling them Normans?
After all Rollo & Co had arrived in the Seine Valley (without women.) in 911 AD, some 258*years before ‘they’ pitched up in Ireland.
There is a much better case to say they were FRENCH, in culture, language, religion, and outlook. However for an Englishman to admit that we to were conquered by the French is just too much…..even now!
I’m sorry you’ve had that anti English experience.. it is very rare and I wish you wouldn’t let it influence your thinking too much. Your last paragraph suggests you may also need attention, not just on your anti Irish attitude but also on your mental health generally!
I agree! the last paragraph makes it seem like you could also need help with your overall mental health in addition to your anti-Irish geometry dash viewpoint.
I agree! the last paragraph makes it seem like you could also need help with your overall mental health in addition to your anti-Irish geometry dash viewpoint.
Very good article Bill and – apart from myself – you are the first person that has explained the ‘Brits/English/Normans’ (call them what you like) were indeed invited to help King Dermott. I think it was Henry II they asked and he was asked also to keep troops there to continue the ‘peace’.
Could this put things into perspective one wonders? – along with the fact in the early 1900’s the majority of Irish people were happy to be British (dont forget we have Welsh/Scottish/English & Irish British).
You are right about India too – they were also fighting with one another as sepoarate terriroties. Much the same way as Europe also did for centuries, until NATO.
‘Nationality’ has more to do with culture than land mass.
What we now call germany – for instance – was dozens and dozens of separate kingdoms/territories. But ultimately (more or elss) united together through a shared language.
England/Wales & Scotland have separate cultures and separate languages – as indeed do most of The EU!
Don’t you think it is a little anachronistic to keep calling them Normans?
After all Rollo & Co had arrived in the Seine Valley (without women.) in 911 AD, some 258*years before ‘they’ pitched up in Ireland.
There is a much better case to say they were FRENCH, in culture, language, religion, and outlook. However for an Englishman to admit that we to were conquered by the French is just too much…..even now!
I’m sorry you’ve had that anti English experience.. it is very rare and I wish you wouldn’t let it influence your thinking too much. Your last paragraph suggests you may also need attention, not just on your anti Irish attitude but also on your mental health generally!
Very good article Bill and – apart from myself – you are the first person that has explained the ‘Brits/English/Normans’ (call them what you like) were indeed invited to help King Dermott. I think it was Henry II they asked and he was asked also to keep troops there to continue the ‘peace’.
Could this put things into perspective one wonders? – along with the fact in the early 1900’s the majority of Irish people were happy to be British (dont forget we have Welsh/Scottish/English & Irish British).
You are right about India too – they were also fighting with one another as sepoarate terriroties. Much the same way as Europe also did for centuries, until NATO.
‘Nationality’ has more to do with culture than land mass.
What we now call germany – for instance – was dozens and dozens of separate kingdoms/territories. But ultimately (more or elss) united together through a shared language.
England/Wales & Scotland have separate cultures and separate languages – as indeed do most of The EU!
This is true.. of course some English aristocratic landlords fled or were driven out but they were the dreadful, cruel, hated types. Most were decent landlords, well liked, respected, well integrated etc. and continue to be so.
As with India, Ireland was never a single state until the British arrived Though in the case of Ireland, it was the Normans, conquerors of England & the English. They took the invitation to Ireland to fight for the minor King Diarmait MacMurrough and eventually ended up fighting for themselves.
Diarmut, was
“the King of Leinster in the 1160s. At this point in the country’s history, there was no one central ruler, but rather a number of separate kingdoms – kingdoms that were often at war with each other.”
According to the link below. Though by 1160, the ‘Normans’ had become ‘Anglo Normans’, apparently. https://ireland-calling.com/diarmait-macmurrough/
Seems he wasn’t one of the brightest Kings around, or else he didn’t know much about Normans. They’d already taken a chunk of France, then all of England, were busy trying to take all of Wales and he offers them a chance of Ireland.
Just as the English took root in Ireland, so my family took root in England, and I’m proud to have Liverpool Irish heritage, but wouldn’t swap my English citizenship. What ‘Irish’ family and acquaintances my family had, behaving despicably to an English (that was their view of her) born second generation Irish wife mean I’ve never visited and have no desire to do so.
If NI joins the Republic it wouldn’t bother me at all. Though I suspect I’d revel in Schadenfreude as the EU, Irish State and the US had to cope with an influx of so many ‘foreigners’ – and I include the NI Catholics in that group. Be wary what you wish for, would be my advice to the Irish Nationalists.
Which precedents also suggest another step. When can we English demand that Wales and Scotland ‘unite’ with England and become England , and we can ditch the UK? After all, it is a single Island! We wouldn’t need any Brexit deal then either. 😉
This is true.. of course some English aristocratic landlords fled or were driven out but they were the dreadful, cruel, hated types. Most were decent landlords, well liked, respected, well integrated etc. and continue to be so.
Over time ignorance and the shrinking Christian beliefs meant supporters misunderstood the relationship/significance of religion and football, and now Football is the religion, the clubs are the denominations and the grounds are the Cathedrals.
I agree – I dont think the Protestant/Catholic football divides are there to any large extent. Who actually cares about religeon anyway and even less about the Church of Ireland/Presbyterian boundaries etc., – ita all aincient history and no longer applies. My evidence is the empty pews in Churches all over the place.
I agree – I dont think the Protestant/Catholic football divides are there to any large extent. Who actually cares about religeon anyway and even less about the Church of Ireland/Presbyterian boundaries etc., – ita all aincient history and no longer applies. My evidence is the empty pews in Churches all over the place.
Whilst I understand the historic position on your comments, I am unconvinced these entranched positions apply that much today. Maybe still a little in Scotland – but until this article (as someone born in Liverpool) I had no idea of the supposed religious divide. (Uless your description of Neo Pagan undermines my point)
I also enjoy explaining that in the Island of Ireland, the Church of Ireland and The Roman Catholic church have no border, but the Presbyterian Church is a Northern Irish peculiarity…. and that the majority of the aristocratic land owners in The Republic are of English descent and live their happily as members of The Church of England or Ireland.
Over time ignorance and the shrinking Christian beliefs meant supporters misunderstood the relationship/significance of religion and football, and now Football is the religion, the clubs are the denominations and the grounds are the Cathedrals.
Whilst I understand the historic position on your comments, I am unconvinced these entranched positions apply that much today. Maybe still a little in Scotland – but until this article (as someone born in Liverpool) I had no idea of the supposed religious divide. (Uless your description of Neo Pagan undermines my point)
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
How I love telling foreign football fans that here in now neo pagan Britain, football clubs in Liverpool, Manchester and Edinburgh are based on Christian religious division… the look on their faces is amazing!!!
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago
The English will not go to the barricades for Ulster again. They were shocked and disgusted by “The Troubles” and deeply unimpressed by the DUP supporting John Major’s moribund administration in the later years (1996-7). They regarded the Unionists as archaic, a time which had passed and have no patience with bowlers, sashes and deliverately provocative apprentice marches.
For many in the British Army*, particularly the Infantry the Irish Insurgency came as a godsend.Having been continuously ‘in action’ from 1945 to the withdrawal from Aden in 1967, the prospects for 1968 looked bleak indeed. In fact 1968 was said to have been the first year since 1689 when an English later British soldier had NOT been killed in action somewhere.
Fortunately Unionist greed and incompetence sparked serious disturbances in 1969, eventually forcing the PM, one Harold Wilson Esq to abdicate all responsibility and in complete desperation, send in the Army. The rest should be history.
However at this very moment the Judiciary of Northern Ireland is pursuing a vexatious prosecution against a former Paratrooper of the Ist Battalion the Parachute Regiment** for his actions during the disturbances of the 30th January 1972 last…..(a Sunday as it happens).
Despite this being over 50 years ago the current Tory Government has done precisely NOTHING to stop this outrage, despite making feeble protestations to the contrary.It is simply PATHETIC.
Is your view the same on Jewish pursuit of war criminals 50 years after 1945? I’m just asking.. I’m trying to decide if you feel such crimes should not be so regarded? Also, I’m not saying the comparison is totally valid but the underlying principle stands surely?
There should be a Statute of Limitations given the problems of memory loss/distortion etc, don’t you think?
Do you recall the case of John Demjanjuk who was very nearly hanged until someone realised they had the wrong man?
Or the more recent case of the ludicrous prosecution of a 97 German woman because she had been a 17/18 year old typist in one of the camps.Her only ‘crime’ was to have lived so long! Incidentally, and typically German she was, unbelievably, prosecuted as a ‘minor’.!
However I acknowledge that it is a very Irish characteristic to ‘never forgive nor ever forget’, so you may feel differently.
There should be a Statute of Limitations given the problems of memory loss/distortion etc, don’t you think?
Do you recall the case of John Demjanjuk who was very nearly hanged until someone realised they had the wrong man?
Or the more recent case of the ludicrous prosecution of a 97 German woman because she had been a 17/18 year old typist in one of the camps.Her only ‘crime’ was to have lived so long! Incidentally, and typically German she was, unbelievably, prosecuted as a ‘minor’.!
However I acknowledge that it is a very Irish characteristic to ‘never forgive nor ever forget’, so you may feel differently.
Is your view the same on Jewish pursuit of war criminals 50 years after 1945? I’m just asking.. I’m trying to decide if you feel such crimes should not be so regarded? Also, I’m not saying the comparison is totally valid but the underlying principle stands surely?
For many in the British Army*, particularly the Infantry the Irish Insurgency came as a godsend.Having been continuously ‘in action’ from 1945 to the withdrawal from Aden in 1967, the prospects for 1968 looked bleak indeed. In fact 1968 was said to have been the first year since 1689 when an English later British soldier had NOT been killed in action somewhere.
Fortunately Unionist greed and incompetence sparked serious disturbances in 1969, eventually forcing the PM, one Harold Wilson Esq to abdicate all responsibility and in complete desperation, send in the Army. The rest should be history.
However at this very moment the Judiciary of Northern Ireland is pursuing a vexatious prosecution against a former Paratrooper of the Ist Battalion the Parachute Regiment** for his actions during the disturbances of the 30th January 1972 last…..(a Sunday as it happens).
Despite this being over 50 years ago the current Tory Government has done precisely NOTHING to stop this outrage, despite making feeble protestations to the contrary.It is simply PATHETIC.
(* All volunteers from 1961.)
(** Soldier F.)
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago
The English will not go to the barricades for Ulster again. They were shocked and disgusted by “The Troubles” and deeply unimpressed by the DUP supporting John Major’s moribund administration in the later years (1996-7). They regarded the Unionists as archaic, a time which had passed and have no patience with bowlers, sashes and deliverately provocative apprentice marches.
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Churchill, mercurial as ever, was convinced the Royal Navy could and would crush Ulster/Belfast in 1914, but we wouldn’t want to mention that would we?
We have jettisoned the Empire without too much trouble, so NOW it is time to jettison the Union. Between them Northern Ireland and Scotland cost England about £30 billion* per annum. We can no longer afford such largesse for so little return.
Yes, and not only that, but, as an Ulsterman, in my view, continually being propped up -financially and psychologically – creates a form of politics in NI which is forever trapped in adolescence. I’ve been saying for 30 years that one way to solve the North of Ireland is for both GB and ROI simultaneously to declare that they wash their hands of it. This is where we need to get to: https://ayenaw.com/2021/02/06/venn-land/
Very interesting article you wrote there. I do think that your argument stands regardless of your views on Brexit – so there really is no need to risk antagonising people by stating your dislike of Brexit or Boris Johnson.
I’d be surprised if many English people recognise your description of Johnson’s government as being “colonialist” in Northern Ireland – nor any of its predecessors. For my entire lifetime, the UK attitude to Northern Ireland seems to be much more one of exasperation, sometimes incomprehension and great patience (Mrs. Binfield in Harry Enfield’s sketch). I suspect very few of us are seeking to get more involved.
Very interesting article you wrote there. I do think that your argument stands regardless of your views on Brexit – so there really is no need to risk antagonising people by stating your dislike of Brexit or Boris Johnson.
I’d be surprised if many English people recognise your description of Johnson’s government as being “colonialist” in Northern Ireland – nor any of its predecessors. For my entire lifetime, the UK attitude to Northern Ireland seems to be much more one of exasperation, sometimes incomprehension and great patience (Mrs. Binfield in Harry Enfield’s sketch). I suspect very few of us are seeking to get more involved.
Yes, and not only that, but, as an Ulsterman, in my view, continually being propped up -financially and psychologically – creates a form of politics in NI which is forever trapped in adolescence. I’ve been saying for 30 years that one way to solve the North of Ireland is for both GB and ROI simultaneously to declare that they wash their hands of it. This is where we need to get to: https://ayenaw.com/2021/02/06/venn-land/
Churchill, mercurial as ever, was convinced the Royal Navy could and would crush Ulster/Belfast in 1914, but we wouldn’t want to mention that would we?
We have jettisoned the Empire without too much trouble, so NOW it is time to jettison the Union. Between them Northern Ireland and Scotland cost England about £30 billion* per annum. We can no longer afford such largesse for so little return.
Consummatum est!
(* The wretched Barnett Formula!)
rob drummond
1 year ago
”The British’ (what could be left of them) – are not that wedded to Scotland nor NI. Yes, it would be ”nice” to keep the UK together – but honestly? the constant moaning and trouble caused has to be taken into account. – to say nothing of the ”Barnet Formula” £15bn subsidy a year each to both Scotnaldn and NI fron The English (Sorry Wales but you get a subsidy too).
England (and Wales?) would be much better off financially of NI and Scotland decided to leave UK.
I doubt very much whether the actual tiny Irish Economy (removing the legalised money launderging that counts as their GDP) could afford the £15bn pa subsity needed to keep NI afloat. So its not just whether NI wants a united Ireland – but does Ireland?
Frankly I’m ambivalent on the question.. as an Anglican in the ROI I can say I’ve never been discriminated against. It would be nice to reunite but the vision of belligerent NI politicians (from both sides) in our parliament does not appeal to me. We in the ROI are non sectarian, and wholly accommodating compared to our waring brothers and sisters up north.
Personally, I think a devolved NI Assembly is a good solution and it matters very little to the vast majority of NI folk whether GHQ is in Westminster or Dublin..
Since GB caused the divide in the first place and handled the whole debacle so badly GB must foot the bill for 10 years or so, but reducing gradually to zero. The US and EU will also support us financially and so the cost will be easily absorbed.
With Scexit on the cards and maybe Wexit as well we can form a new Federation of Celtic States. We might even entice Cornwall to join us? Then we can link up with our Norse kinfolk and enlarge the FCS to the Federation of Nordic & Celtic States.. I jest of course …or do I?
There is no Scexit – stop dreaming of your celtic ‘Cabal’
You say ”The EU will support us”? really how come they didnt in 2009 when Ireland needed a bail out? That was refused by ECB and is was THE UK (the mortal enemy) that cut The Irish a cheque for £7bn NOT your fabulous EU. Remember that? if you dotn – check it out.
Its not Ireland The USA turns to when in need – Its the UK Military – when the chips are down The UK is the (mostly) staunch ally, with military and intelligence might, nothign to do with a so-called passing ”Irish” (not really Irish) President Biden.
There is no Scexit – stop dreaming of your celtic ‘Cabal’
You say ”The EU will support us”? really how come they didnt in 2009 when Ireland needed a bail out? That was refused by ECB and is was THE UK (the mortal enemy) that cut The Irish a cheque for £7bn NOT your fabulous EU. Remember that? if you dotn – check it out.
Its not Ireland The USA turns to when in need – Its the UK Military – when the chips are down The UK is the (mostly) staunch ally, with military and intelligence might, nothign to do with a so-called passing ”Irish” (not really Irish) President Biden.
Frankly I’m ambivalent on the question.. as an Anglican in the ROI I can say I’ve never been discriminated against. It would be nice to reunite but the vision of belligerent NI politicians (from both sides) in our parliament does not appeal to me. We in the ROI are non sectarian, and wholly accommodating compared to our waring brothers and sisters up north.
Personally, I think a devolved NI Assembly is a good solution and it matters very little to the vast majority of NI folk whether GHQ is in Westminster or Dublin..
Since GB caused the divide in the first place and handled the whole debacle so badly GB must foot the bill for 10 years or so, but reducing gradually to zero. The US and EU will also support us financially and so the cost will be easily absorbed.
With Scexit on the cards and maybe Wexit as well we can form a new Federation of Celtic States. We might even entice Cornwall to join us? Then we can link up with our Norse kinfolk and enlarge the FCS to the Federation of Nordic & Celtic States.. I jest of course …or do I?
rob drummond
1 year ago
”The British’ (what could be left of them) – are not that wedded to Scotland nor NI. Yes, it would be ”nice” to keep the UK together – but honestly? the constant moaning and trouble caused has to be taken into account. – to say nothing of the ”Barnet Formula” £15bn subsidy a year each to both Scotnaldn and NI fron The English (Sorry Wales but you get a subsidy too).
England (and Wales?) would be much better off financially of NI and Scotland decided to leave UK.
I doubt very much whether the actual tiny Irish Economy (removing the legalised money launderging that counts as their GDP) could afford the £15bn pa subsity needed to keep NI afloat. So its not just whether NI wants a united Ireland – but does Ireland?
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
An excellent and informative piece albeit without any information on the Nationalist movement within Ireland as a whole, including Ulster.. people forget that 3 of Ulster’s 9 counties lie in the Republic so any Unionist reference to Ulster as synonymous with NI is fallacious and serves only to avoid using a term that is highly repugnant to diehard Orangemen, namely the word “Ireland”. Of course they also have the problem, when referring to ROI as “the South” that the most northerly point on the entire Ireland is Malin Head which, for them is paradoxically in “The South”! I’m always surprised the Orangemen, when in tyrannical control didn’t name the state Orangeland or Carsonland in order to drop all references to “Ireland”.
Hibernia might have been a better choice. After all that is what ‘you know who’ called it.
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
An excellent and informative piece albeit without any information on the Nationalist movement within Ireland as a whole, including Ulster.. people forget that 3 of Ulster’s 9 counties lie in the Republic so any Unionist reference to Ulster as synonymous with NI is fallacious and serves only to avoid using a term that is highly repugnant to diehard Orangemen, namely the word “Ireland”. Of course they also have the problem, when referring to ROI as “the South” that the most northerly point on the entire Ireland is Malin Head which, for them is paradoxically in “The South”! I’m always surprised the Orangemen, when in tyrannical control didn’t name the state Orangeland or Carsonland in order to drop all references to “Ireland”.
Northern Ireland: It is a constituent region of the United Kingdom, located in the northeast of the island of Ireland. It is made up of six counties: Antrim, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh and Tyrone. The history of Northern Ireland has been marked by religious and political conflicts, especially during the Northern Ireland conflict, which lasted from the 1960s to 1998. This conflict mainly pitted unionists (who wanted to maintain the union with Great Britain) against each other. and nationalists (who sought the reunification of Ireland). The Good Friday Agreement in 1998 helped establish a peace process and a devolution of power to a Northern Ireland Assembly , I would have liked it to be like that in Mexico that change in that way but it was not like that
Northern Ireland: It is a constituent region of the United Kingdom, located in the northeast of the island of Ireland. It is made up of six counties: Antrim, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh and Tyrone. The history of Northern Ireland has been marked by religious and political conflicts, especially during the Northern Ireland conflict, which lasted from the 1960s to 1998. This conflict mainly pitted unionists (who wanted to maintain the union with Great Britain) against each other. and nationalists (who sought the reunification of Ireland). The Good Friday Agreement in 1998 helped establish a peace process and a devolution of power to a Northern Ireland Assembly , I would have liked it to be like that in Mexico that change in that way but it was not like that
Fear of the ‘other’ used to generate populist support – a playbook used more than once in our collective history as we know.
One might add – a colonial legacy where consequences are far from exhausted, but perhaps that’s another Article.
..it would be if the ‘other’ and associated bigotry was indeed confined to past history.. sadly, the dirty tricks dept of GB’s deep state is still very active.. look at the newspaper headlines!
A fascinating delve into events a century ago, brought forth as Ulster returns to political prominence. The intervention of the First World War in particular adds to the context, and reminds us of how conflagrations such as in Ukraine need to be very carefully managed from a domestic point of view.
My grandfather was part of the Irish diaspora that landed in Liverpool. Many others landed in New York, and continue to shape US politics and its influence on the UK to this day.
A very welcome history lesson then, especially as the value of factual history is brought into focus as never before. Also revealed, is our collective ability to forget, and how fragments of past conflicts still play out, often without much comprehension to the majority of us.
Please be aware that ⅓ of Ulster is in the Republic’ ie Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan.. the term your looking for is “Northern Ireland” itself a misnomer: it should be called Northeast Ireland since the island’s most northerly point, Nalin Head is in Donegal, Ulster, Republic of Ireland.
Thankyou for that correction.
Tá fáilte romhait (you’re welcome)..
Tá fáilte romhait (you’re welcome)..
I was not specifically aware of this – but thank you. I dotn know how that border came about – but I always thought it was rather odd.
but since I dont know the borders origins, I will leave it there.
Armagh, Down, Antrim, Derry were majority unionist at the time of partition. Unionists felt they could only control about 6 counties. 4 were seen to be too little. Fermanagh and Tyrone were majority catholic but only about 55% as opposed to the other 3 counties of Ulster (Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal) which were at least 2/3 catholic.
Armagh, Down, Antrim, Derry were majority unionist at the time of partition. Unionists felt they could only control about 6 counties. 4 were seen to be too little. Fermanagh and Tyrone were majority catholic but only about 55% as opposed to the other 3 counties of Ulster (Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal) which were at least 2/3 catholic.
Thankyou for that correction.
I was not specifically aware of this – but thank you. I dotn know how that border came about – but I always thought it was rather odd.
but since I dont know the borders origins, I will leave it there.
US Politics is shaped by very many ethnic groups, and very many influences far beyond ethnicity – lets not overdo it.
I agree at the moment the self-styled ‘Irish’ Biden (whose main roots came from Berkshire) has trumpetted that ”I’m Irish’ – a rather strange remark sicne I dont think he looks 250 years old. Or perhaps he does!
Please be aware that ⅓ of Ulster is in the Republic’ ie Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan.. the term your looking for is “Northern Ireland” itself a misnomer: it should be called Northeast Ireland since the island’s most northerly point, Nalin Head is in Donegal, Ulster, Republic of Ireland.
US Politics is shaped by very many ethnic groups, and very many influences far beyond ethnicity – lets not overdo it.
I agree at the moment the self-styled ‘Irish’ Biden (whose main roots came from Berkshire) has trumpetted that ”I’m Irish’ – a rather strange remark sicne I dont think he looks 250 years old. Or perhaps he does!
A fascinating delve into events a century ago, brought forth as Ulster returns to political prominence. The intervention of the First World War in particular adds to the context, and reminds us of how conflagrations such as in Ukraine need to be very carefully managed from a domestic point of view.
My grandfather was part of the Irish diaspora that landed in Liverpool. Many others landed in New York, and continue to shape US politics and its influence on the UK to this day.
A very welcome history lesson then, especially as the value of factual history is brought into focus as never before. Also revealed, is our collective ability to forget, and how fragments of past conflicts still play out, often without much comprehension to the majority of us.
Fascinating essay. Worth recalling that Liverpool’s Anglican cathedral, foundation stone laid by King Edward VII in 1904, was taller and larger than any medieval cathedral in the country and built at a high point in the city – an assertion of dominance by the Protestant establishment in a largely Catholic city. But to add nuance, its architect (Giles Gilbert Scott) was a Catholic.
Off-piste:
Liverpool Cathedral is in fact, as you know, the largest Cathedral in the country and to compare to it is medieval predecessors is slightly invidious don’t you think.?
Surely it would be better to preface any mention of it with the words Gothic Revival or even neo-gothic?
Either way it beats the Catholic effort, the now rather dilapidated ‘Paddy’s Wigwam’.
Deleted – my response made redundant by your edit
It certainly adds to Liverpool’s outstanding architectural heritage.
Incidentally I note there was no mention of Liverpool’s very profitable involvement in the Slave Trade!
Both stand/stood out on the skyline from my former class room on the 3rd floor of SFX (then a Grammar) at the top of Quarry Street, Woolton. The Quarry being, so I understand, the source of the Cathedral’s sandstone, and quarried right next to the Catholic Church of St Mary Woolton.
Also, an interesting aspect of Irish/English Catholicism and epidemics is recorded here where 9 of the 10 ‘Martyr’ priests tending their Irish flock, were English.
https://www.liverpoolmonuments.co.uk/pat01.html
Slavery is one band-wagon I refuse to apologise for. I had nothign to do with it and wont apologise for the people that did – in very different tiems.
The real questions are never asked:
1) Who SOLD the slaves to The Europeans (not just The British) in the first place? – The Black Tribe Chiefs of Africa did, and made their fortunes.
2) Where did they get the slaves? – They fought internal wars and captured the enemy (not killed them) then sold them on to make their fortunes.
The Europeans did not raid and capture slaves but went throguh the original Slave Traders based on land. Africans shoudl also check their roots! Many of the Slave Trader decendants are walking the earth today.
3) Did The British create the Slave Trade? – No of coruse, not – the internal slave trade was a thriving business for many thousands of years all over the populated World (AKA The Romans and Aincient Chinese/Gengis Khan etc.,) – not least of which The Pyramids were built by African Slaves for African Pharoes.
4) How did the Slave trade end? – In simple terms ”The British ended it” – virtually single handidly.
5) Anything else? – YES – The British created special zones in Africa for Slaves they captured from other slave trading ships (Portuguise, American, Spanish etal) – those zones are even today called ”Freetown”.
Conclusion:
No, I am not apologising for it – and freankly am fed up of the onslaught by 4% of UK population, harranging the other 96%.
3) Did The British create the Slave Trade?
Even beyond your answer, the answer is no. The Atlantic slave trade was created by the Portuguese and Spanish to feed their empires in S America. The British really only ramped up activity after the Treaty of Utrecht (1713) at the end of the war of Spanish Succession broke up the Latin slave trade monopoly.
Yes you are right about the Portuguse ad Spanish – but dont forget, 1000’s of years of african (and other?) slave trading preceeded it.
Yes you are right about the Portuguse ad Spanish – but dont forget, 1000’s of years of african (and other?) slave trading preceeded it.
I completely agree, I only mentioned it to stir things up a bit!
When you are in the WFD* Cohort things can be rather boring.
(* Waiting for Death.)
You did a good job! – Thanks
You did a good job! – Thanks
3) Did The British create the Slave Trade?
Even beyond your answer, the answer is no. The Atlantic slave trade was created by the Portuguese and Spanish to feed their empires in S America. The British really only ramped up activity after the Treaty of Utrecht (1713) at the end of the war of Spanish Succession broke up the Latin slave trade monopoly.
I completely agree, I only mentioned it to stir things up a bit!
When you are in the WFD* Cohort things can be rather boring.
(* Waiting for Death.)
‘not sure if you’re aware some 50,000 Irish slaves sent by Cromwell to the Carolinas? Few descendants though.. they died like flies in the weather conditions unlike their black counterparts who were more suited to hot humid conditions..
Yes, weren’t they called ‘Indentured Labour’?
As I recall quite a few thousand Scotch also suffered the same fate. “Vae Victis”!
Incidentally we also shipped thousands of English criminals to the American Colonies up until 1776-83. It was a ‘woke’ alternative to hanging them.
After we granted the US independence, we HAD to find somewhere else, hence Mr Cook and Botany Bay in 1788!
Yes – but Cromwell also terrorised The English dont forget – not somethign taught in irish Schoolls I know. But Cromwell was a tyrant in England as much as Ireland.
By the way – something else not taught in Ireland – Cromwell was decended from Irish immigrants to England. (I know – shocking isnt it? – rather like St Patrick actually being British and not Irish)
Yes, weren’t they called ‘Indentured Labour’?
As I recall quite a few thousand Scotch also suffered the same fate. “Vae Victis”!
Incidentally we also shipped thousands of English criminals to the American Colonies up until 1776-83. It was a ‘woke’ alternative to hanging them.
After we granted the US independence, we HAD to find somewhere else, hence Mr Cook and Botany Bay in 1788!
Yes – but Cromwell also terrorised The English dont forget – not somethign taught in irish Schoolls I know. But Cromwell was a tyrant in England as much as Ireland.
By the way – something else not taught in Ireland – Cromwell was decended from Irish immigrants to England. (I know – shocking isnt it? – rather like St Patrick actually being British and not Irish)
Both stand/stood out on the skyline from my former class room on the 3rd floor of SFX (then a Grammar) at the top of Quarry Street, Woolton. The Quarry being, so I understand, the source of the Cathedral’s sandstone, and quarried right next to the Catholic Church of St Mary Woolton.
Also, an interesting aspect of Irish/English Catholicism and epidemics is recorded here where 9 of the 10 ‘Martyr’ priests tending their Irish flock, were English.
https://www.liverpoolmonuments.co.uk/pat01.html
Slavery is one band-wagon I refuse to apologise for. I had nothign to do with it and wont apologise for the people that did – in very different tiems.
The real questions are never asked:
1) Who SOLD the slaves to The Europeans (not just The British) in the first place? – The Black Tribe Chiefs of Africa did, and made their fortunes.
2) Where did they get the slaves? – They fought internal wars and captured the enemy (not killed them) then sold them on to make their fortunes.
The Europeans did not raid and capture slaves but went throguh the original Slave Traders based on land. Africans shoudl also check their roots! Many of the Slave Trader decendants are walking the earth today.
3) Did The British create the Slave Trade? – No of coruse, not – the internal slave trade was a thriving business for many thousands of years all over the populated World (AKA The Romans and Aincient Chinese/Gengis Khan etc.,) – not least of which The Pyramids were built by African Slaves for African Pharoes.
4) How did the Slave trade end? – In simple terms ”The British ended it” – virtually single handidly.
5) Anything else? – YES – The British created special zones in Africa for Slaves they captured from other slave trading ships (Portuguise, American, Spanish etal) – those zones are even today called ”Freetown”.
Conclusion:
No, I am not apologising for it – and freankly am fed up of the onslaught by 4% of UK population, harranging the other 96%.
‘not sure if you’re aware some 50,000 Irish slaves sent by Cromwell to the Carolinas? Few descendants though.. they died like flies in the weather conditions unlike their black counterparts who were more suited to hot humid conditions..
It certainly adds to Liverpool’s outstanding architectural heritage.
Incidentally I note there was no mention of Liverpool’s very profitable involvement in the Slave Trade!
I feel I shoudl not mention either than Liverpool had the biggest organ……
Metaphorically speaking?
Maybe
Maybe
Metaphorically speaking?
Always with the insults Charlie, nor totally unfunny but a bit tiresome, disingenuous and outdated as all your comments tend to be..
What are you referring to Mr Mahony?
“Paddy’s Wigwam” ..ok it is slightly funny but it’s also a disgraceful comment. Apologise at once!
It was christened that by the ‘natives’ on Day1 back in 1967.
As a native – I can concur – its still known as that today.
Why are people such wimps these days? – where no one can have a laugh – and everyone gets ”offended” (or pretends to) over everything.
I have ginger hair for Gods sake, I have to live with THAT – a far worse fate that a nickname for an inanimate (irrelevent?) building – and I take all the ribbing (fun/piss take – call it what you like) that goes with it.
By the way had The Catholics built the original planned Cathederal- no one would have called it anythign other than magnificent!
Relax!
As a native – I can concur – its still known as that today.
Why are people such wimps these days? – where no one can have a laugh – and everyone gets ”offended” (or pretends to) over everything.
I have ginger hair for Gods sake, I have to live with THAT – a far worse fate that a nickname for an inanimate (irrelevent?) building – and I take all the ribbing (fun/piss take – call it what you like) that goes with it.
By the way had The Catholics built the original planned Cathederal- no one would have called it anythign other than magnificent!
Relax!
It was christened that by the ‘natives’ on Day1 back in 1967.
“Paddy’s Wigwam” ..ok it is slightly funny but it’s also a disgraceful comment. Apologise at once!
I rather like them
What are you referring to Mr Mahony?
I rather like them
Deleted – my response made redundant by your edit
I feel I shoudl not mention either than Liverpool had the biggest organ……
Always with the insults Charlie, nor totally unfunny but a bit tiresome, disingenuous and outdated as all your comments tend to be..
I think this confirms how little regard to ones religeon the vast majority of English people really have. I cannot same the same for everywhere however. I belive he also did the Majestic Gothic ”cathederal” St Pancras Station – perhaps the most glorious building in London?
Glorious indeed, but it was by his grandfather, the first of the great Scott dynasty of architects
Many thsnkd Andrew – I think his name too was Gilbert Scott – hence the confusion!
Many thsnkd Andrew – I think his name too was Gilbert Scott – hence the confusion!
Glorious indeed, but it was by his grandfather, the first of the great Scott dynasty of architects
Off-piste:
Liverpool Cathedral is in fact, as you know, the largest Cathedral in the country and to compare to it is medieval predecessors is slightly invidious don’t you think.?
Surely it would be better to preface any mention of it with the words Gothic Revival or even neo-gothic?
Either way it beats the Catholic effort, the now rather dilapidated ‘Paddy’s Wigwam’.
I think this confirms how little regard to ones religeon the vast majority of English people really have. I cannot same the same for everywhere however. I belive he also did the Majestic Gothic ”cathederal” St Pancras Station – perhaps the most glorious building in London?
Fascinating essay. Worth recalling that Liverpool’s Anglican cathedral, foundation stone laid by King Edward VII in 1904, was taller and larger than any medieval cathedral in the country and built at a high point in the city – an assertion of dominance by the Protestant establishment in a largely Catholic city. But to add nuance, its architect (Giles Gilbert Scott) was a Catholic.
Wonderful piece. Dan Jackson is a wonderfully skilled writer. Amazing how we can be so short termist in our day to day political thinking yet actually deep politics moves at glacial speed.
…if we don’t know where we came from we don’t really know where we are; and perhsps don’t know where we are going to?
It might also be useful to consider European “Unionism” and expected the comparison of GB desperately wanting out (like Ireland wanted out of the UK in 1920s) and those of us who want to stay in the European Union (like Ireland in the 2020s!).. then move on to a majority in NI and in Scotland wanting to stay in the EU as well! ..and NI still in the Single Market.. the INs and OUTs of it all, eh?
Typically (except Germany who have other reasons for staying in Their EU) Europsceptamism increases as countries become large net contributors.
UK and Germany alone funded Germany’s EU for decades.
Without UK overseas aid contribution to EU of £20bn (including VAT and Customs duties share) other countries are now net contributors – but most (for the moment) only small net – as those sums grow larger so does eurosceptamism. Rightly local tax-payers start questioning (as they did in UK) where all the cash is squandered. Check out the accession countries lined up now!
Anyone who does not realise its Germany (with 25% of The EU GDP) that calls the EU shots, does not know enough.
Typically (except Germany who have other reasons for staying in Their EU) Europsceptamism increases as countries become large net contributors.
UK and Germany alone funded Germany’s EU for decades.
Without UK overseas aid contribution to EU of £20bn (including VAT and Customs duties share) other countries are now net contributors – but most (for the moment) only small net – as those sums grow larger so does eurosceptamism. Rightly local tax-payers start questioning (as they did in UK) where all the cash is squandered. Check out the accession countries lined up now!
Anyone who does not realise its Germany (with 25% of The EU GDP) that calls the EU shots, does not know enough.
…if we don’t know where we came from we don’t really know where we are; and perhsps don’t know where we are going to?
It might also be useful to consider European “Unionism” and expected the comparison of GB desperately wanting out (like Ireland wanted out of the UK in 1920s) and those of us who want to stay in the European Union (like Ireland in the 2020s!).. then move on to a majority in NI and in Scotland wanting to stay in the EU as well! ..and NI still in the Single Market.. the INs and OUTs of it all, eh?
Wonderful piece. Dan Jackson is a wonderfully skilled writer. Amazing how we can be so short termist in our day to day political thinking yet actually deep politics moves at glacial speed.
An interesting article, and in particular this;
I think it is worth mentioning that during much of the period covered by the article, Dublin was considered the second city of the British Empire, and hence the Liffey could probably be added to that confluence of rivers.
It’s surprising that Charles Stewart Parnell is not mentioned once. Indeed, had he not had an adulterous affair, the future of Ireland would almost certainly have followed a different course, notwithstanding Carson’s stand in the North.
I’d also mention that Liverpool’s history as one of the main ports of the Empire is fascinating. The Irish certainly play a major part in this, but so do many others, including Chinese and Africans.
Good article thanks.
Good article thanks.
An interesting article, and in particular this;
I think it is worth mentioning that during much of the period covered by the article, Dublin was considered the second city of the British Empire, and hence the Liffey could probably be added to that confluence of rivers.
It’s surprising that Charles Stewart Parnell is not mentioned once. Indeed, had he not had an adulterous affair, the future of Ireland would almost certainly have followed a different course, notwithstanding Carson’s stand in the North.
I’d also mention that Liverpool’s history as one of the main ports of the Empire is fascinating. The Irish certainly play a major part in this, but so do many others, including Chinese and Africans.
A great article. Unherd please note: more like this, please! Here in Scotland, the Conservative Party’s full name is “The Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party”. The magic word “Unionist” can still garner a few votes for them in working class areas. In 1959, more than 50% of all the votes cast were for the Conservatives. Even Edinburgh had a Protestant Action councillor, John Cormack, who was elected on an anti-Catholic ticket from 1934 until the 1960’s when he retired.
Certain groups of people like to cast themselves in the role of victim: “our heritage is under threat”, even though their heritage apparently largely consists entirely of being obnoxious to people who are not of their heritage. In Scotland, they see the Nicola Sturgeon and co. as just the sort of threat they need as the basis of grievance. We have not seen the last of them.
I notice John Cormack lacks a Mac / Mc in his name.. during the famine in Ireland soup was given to those happy to drop the Mc or O’ in their name and an extra bowl if they renounced their (Roman) Catholicism in favour of Anglicanism. Was John Cormack a “souper” as they are termed?
I know nothing of his origins, other than that he was descended from a very long line of maiden aunts.
lol!
lol!
I know nothing of his origins, other than that he was descended from a very long line of maiden aunts.
That’s the title of the whole Conservative Party. Johnston played it during his attempts to assure Unionists that his Brexit protocol wouldn’t be a problem.
I notice John Cormack lacks a Mac / Mc in his name.. during the famine in Ireland soup was given to those happy to drop the Mc or O’ in their name and an extra bowl if they renounced their (Roman) Catholicism in favour of Anglicanism. Was John Cormack a “souper” as they are termed?
That’s the title of the whole Conservative Party. Johnston played it during his attempts to assure Unionists that his Brexit protocol wouldn’t be a problem.
A great article. Unherd please note: more like this, please! Here in Scotland, the Conservative Party’s full name is “The Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party”. The magic word “Unionist” can still garner a few votes for them in working class areas. In 1959, more than 50% of all the votes cast were for the Conservatives. Even Edinburgh had a Protestant Action councillor, John Cormack, who was elected on an anti-Catholic ticket from 1934 until the 1960’s when he retired.
Certain groups of people like to cast themselves in the role of victim: “our heritage is under threat”, even though their heritage apparently largely consists entirely of being obnoxious to people who are not of their heritage. In Scotland, they see the Nicola Sturgeon and co. as just the sort of threat they need as the basis of grievance. We have not seen the last of them.
In 1829 we had Catholic Emancipation, which was to eventually turn the tide in Ireland but would make little or no difference in Britain (I assume). Just over 15 years later we had the Great Famine, an event just as significant in later social and political developments. The thread of history does not run in a straight line.
In 1829 we had Catholic Emancipation, which was to eventually turn the tide in Ireland but would make little or no difference in Britain (I assume). Just over 15 years later we had the Great Famine, an event just as significant in later social and political developments. The thread of history does not run in a straight line.
How I love telling foreign football fans that here in now neo pagan Britain, football clubs in Liverpool, Manchester and Edinburgh are based on Christian religious division… the look on their faces is amazing!!!
I also enjoy explaining that in the Island of Ireland, the Church of Ireland and The Roman Catholic church have no border, but the Presbyterian Church is a Northern Irish peculiarity…. and that the majority of the aristocratic land owners in The Republic are of English descent and live their happily as members of The Church of England or Ireland.
As with India, Ireland was never a single state until the British arrived Though in the case of Ireland, it was the Normans, conquerors of England & the English. They took the invitation to Ireland to fight for the minor King Diarmait MacMurrough and eventually ended up fighting for themselves.
Diarmut, was
“the King of Leinster in the 1160s. At this point in the country’s history, there was no one central ruler, but rather a number of separate kingdoms – kingdoms that were often at war with each other.”
According to the link below. Though by 1160, the ‘Normans’ had become ‘Anglo Normans’, apparently.
https://ireland-calling.com/diarmait-macmurrough/
Seems he wasn’t one of the brightest Kings around, or else he didn’t know much about Normans. They’d already taken a chunk of France, then all of England, were busy trying to take all of Wales and he offers them a chance of Ireland.
Just as the English took root in Ireland, so my family took root in England, and I’m proud to have Liverpool Irish heritage, but wouldn’t swap my English citizenship. What ‘Irish’ family and acquaintances my family had, behaving despicably to an English (that was their view of her) born second generation Irish wife mean I’ve never visited and have no desire to do so.
If NI joins the Republic it wouldn’t bother me at all. Though I suspect I’d revel in Schadenfreude as the EU, Irish State and the US had to cope with an influx of so many ‘foreigners’ – and I include the NI Catholics in that group. Be wary what you wish for, would be my advice to the Irish Nationalists.
Which precedents also suggest another step. When can we English demand that Wales and Scotland ‘unite’ with England and become England , and we can ditch the UK? After all, it is a single Island! We wouldn’t need any Brexit deal then either. 😉
Don’t you think it is a little anachronistic to keep calling them Normans?
After all Rollo & Co had arrived in the Seine Valley (without women.) in 911 AD, some 258*years before ‘they’ pitched up in Ireland.
There is a much better case to say they were FRENCH, in culture, language, religion, and outlook. However for an Englishman to admit that we to were conquered by the French is just too much…..even now!
(* Say thirteen generations.)
200+ years after his family left BERKSHIRE – Biden continues to call himself ”Irish” – go figure that!
He’s a fantasist otherwise known as a “Plastic Paddy”.
He’s a fantasist otherwise known as a “Plastic Paddy”.
200+ years after his family left BERKSHIRE – Biden continues to call himself ”Irish” – go figure that!
I’m sorry you’ve had that anti English experience.. it is very rare and I wish you wouldn’t let it influence your thinking too much. Your last paragraph suggests you may also need attention, not just on your anti Irish attitude but also on your mental health generally!
I agree! the last paragraph makes it seem like you could also need help with your overall mental health in addition to your anti-Irish geometry dash viewpoint.
I agree! the last paragraph makes it seem like you could also need help with your overall mental health in addition to your anti-Irish geometry dash viewpoint.
Very good article Bill and – apart from myself – you are the first person that has explained the ‘Brits/English/Normans’ (call them what you like) were indeed invited to help King Dermott. I think it was Henry II they asked and he was asked also to keep troops there to continue the ‘peace’.
Could this put things into perspective one wonders? – along with the fact in the early 1900’s the majority of Irish people were happy to be British (dont forget we have Welsh/Scottish/English & Irish British).
You are right about India too – they were also fighting with one another as sepoarate terriroties. Much the same way as Europe also did for centuries, until NATO.
‘Nationality’ has more to do with culture than land mass.
What we now call germany – for instance – was dozens and dozens of separate kingdoms/territories. But ultimately (more or elss) united together through a shared language.
England/Wales & Scotland have separate cultures and separate languages – as indeed do most of The EU!
Don’t you think it is a little anachronistic to keep calling them Normans?
After all Rollo & Co had arrived in the Seine Valley (without women.) in 911 AD, some 258*years before ‘they’ pitched up in Ireland.
There is a much better case to say they were FRENCH, in culture, language, religion, and outlook. However for an Englishman to admit that we to were conquered by the French is just too much…..even now!
(* Say thirteen generations.)
I’m sorry you’ve had that anti English experience.. it is very rare and I wish you wouldn’t let it influence your thinking too much. Your last paragraph suggests you may also need attention, not just on your anti Irish attitude but also on your mental health generally!
Very good article Bill and – apart from myself – you are the first person that has explained the ‘Brits/English/Normans’ (call them what you like) were indeed invited to help King Dermott. I think it was Henry II they asked and he was asked also to keep troops there to continue the ‘peace’.
Could this put things into perspective one wonders? – along with the fact in the early 1900’s the majority of Irish people were happy to be British (dont forget we have Welsh/Scottish/English & Irish British).
You are right about India too – they were also fighting with one another as sepoarate terriroties. Much the same way as Europe also did for centuries, until NATO.
‘Nationality’ has more to do with culture than land mass.
What we now call germany – for instance – was dozens and dozens of separate kingdoms/territories. But ultimately (more or elss) united together through a shared language.
England/Wales & Scotland have separate cultures and separate languages – as indeed do most of The EU!
This is true.. of course some English aristocratic landlords fled or were driven out but they were the dreadful, cruel, hated types. Most were decent landlords, well liked, respected, well integrated etc. and continue to be so.
Quite a few, house rich but cash poor, took the opportunity burn their own property*, claim on the insurance and flee to England for a new start.
(*Quite often only minor damage.)
Quite a few, house rich but cash poor, took the opportunity burn their own property*, claim on the insurance and flee to England for a new start.
(*Quite often only minor damage.)
As with India, Ireland was never a single state until the British arrived Though in the case of Ireland, it was the Normans, conquerors of England & the English. They took the invitation to Ireland to fight for the minor King Diarmait MacMurrough and eventually ended up fighting for themselves.
Diarmut, was
“the King of Leinster in the 1160s. At this point in the country’s history, there was no one central ruler, but rather a number of separate kingdoms – kingdoms that were often at war with each other.”
According to the link below. Though by 1160, the ‘Normans’ had become ‘Anglo Normans’, apparently.
https://ireland-calling.com/diarmait-macmurrough/
Seems he wasn’t one of the brightest Kings around, or else he didn’t know much about Normans. They’d already taken a chunk of France, then all of England, were busy trying to take all of Wales and he offers them a chance of Ireland.
Just as the English took root in Ireland, so my family took root in England, and I’m proud to have Liverpool Irish heritage, but wouldn’t swap my English citizenship. What ‘Irish’ family and acquaintances my family had, behaving despicably to an English (that was their view of her) born second generation Irish wife mean I’ve never visited and have no desire to do so.
If NI joins the Republic it wouldn’t bother me at all. Though I suspect I’d revel in Schadenfreude as the EU, Irish State and the US had to cope with an influx of so many ‘foreigners’ – and I include the NI Catholics in that group. Be wary what you wish for, would be my advice to the Irish Nationalists.
Which precedents also suggest another step. When can we English demand that Wales and Scotland ‘unite’ with England and become England , and we can ditch the UK? After all, it is a single Island! We wouldn’t need any Brexit deal then either. 😉
This is true.. of course some English aristocratic landlords fled or were driven out but they were the dreadful, cruel, hated types. Most were decent landlords, well liked, respected, well integrated etc. and continue to be so.
Over time ignorance and the shrinking Christian beliefs meant supporters misunderstood the relationship/significance of religion and football, and now Football is the religion, the clubs are the denominations and the grounds are the Cathedrals.
I agree – I dont think the Protestant/Catholic football divides are there to any large extent. Who actually cares about religeon anyway and even less about the Church of Ireland/Presbyterian boundaries etc., – ita all aincient history and no longer applies. My evidence is the empty pews in Churches all over the place.
I agree – I dont think the Protestant/Catholic football divides are there to any large extent. Who actually cares about religeon anyway and even less about the Church of Ireland/Presbyterian boundaries etc., – ita all aincient history and no longer applies. My evidence is the empty pews in Churches all over the place.
Whilst I understand the historic position on your comments, I am unconvinced these entranched positions apply that much today. Maybe still a little in Scotland – but until this article (as someone born in Liverpool) I had no idea of the supposed religious divide. (Uless your description of Neo Pagan undermines my point)
I also enjoy explaining that in the Island of Ireland, the Church of Ireland and The Roman Catholic church have no border, but the Presbyterian Church is a Northern Irish peculiarity…. and that the majority of the aristocratic land owners in The Republic are of English descent and live their happily as members of The Church of England or Ireland.
Over time ignorance and the shrinking Christian beliefs meant supporters misunderstood the relationship/significance of religion and football, and now Football is the religion, the clubs are the denominations and the grounds are the Cathedrals.
Whilst I understand the historic position on your comments, I am unconvinced these entranched positions apply that much today. Maybe still a little in Scotland – but until this article (as someone born in Liverpool) I had no idea of the supposed religious divide. (Uless your description of Neo Pagan undermines my point)
How I love telling foreign football fans that here in now neo pagan Britain, football clubs in Liverpool, Manchester and Edinburgh are based on Christian religious division… the look on their faces is amazing!!!
The English will not go to the barricades for Ulster again. They were shocked and disgusted by “The Troubles” and deeply unimpressed by the DUP supporting John Major’s moribund administration in the later years (1996-7). They regarded the Unionists as archaic, a time which had passed and have no patience with bowlers, sashes and deliverately provocative apprentice marches.
and yet it is one of the 57 varieties of IRA who are again killing, and attempting to kill people.
Hein(z)ous behaviour
(My deepest apologies to anyway directly affected by their activities).
..a tiny minority of appalling thugs. You get them everywhere. Thankfully they represent none but the insane and bewildered.
‘We’ idiotically released 428 of them from incarceration under the GFA.
Additionally each was given a £10,000 ‘resettlement grant’ on release!
Fortunately many subsequently drank themselves to death.
‘We’ idiotically released 428 of them from incarceration under the GFA.
Additionally each was given a £10,000 ‘resettlement grant’ on release!
Fortunately many subsequently drank themselves to death.
Hein(z)ous behaviour
(My deepest apologies to anyway directly affected by their activities).
..a tiny minority of appalling thugs. You get them everywhere. Thankfully they represent none but the insane and bewildered.
For many in the British Army*, particularly the Infantry the Irish Insurgency came as a godsend.Having been continuously ‘in action’ from 1945 to the withdrawal from Aden in 1967, the prospects for 1968 looked bleak indeed. In fact 1968 was said to have been the first year since 1689 when an English later British soldier had NOT been killed in action somewhere.
Fortunately Unionist greed and incompetence sparked serious disturbances in 1969, eventually forcing the PM, one Harold Wilson Esq to abdicate all responsibility and in complete desperation, send in the Army. The rest should be history.
However at this very moment the Judiciary of Northern Ireland is pursuing a vexatious prosecution against a former Paratrooper of the Ist Battalion the Parachute Regiment** for his actions during the disturbances of the 30th January 1972 last…..(a Sunday as it happens).
Despite this being over 50 years ago the current Tory Government has done precisely NOTHING to stop this outrage, despite making feeble protestations to the contrary.It is simply PATHETIC.
(* All volunteers from 1961.)
(** Soldier F.)
Is your view the same on Jewish pursuit of war criminals 50 years after 1945? I’m just asking.. I’m trying to decide if you feel such crimes should not be so regarded? Also, I’m not saying the comparison is totally valid but the underlying principle stands surely?
There should be a Statute of Limitations given the problems of memory loss/distortion etc, don’t you think?
Do you recall the case of John Demjanjuk who was very nearly hanged until someone realised they had the wrong man?
Or the more recent case of the ludicrous prosecution of a 97 German woman because she had been a 17/18 year old typist in one of the camps.Her only ‘crime’ was to have lived so long! Incidentally, and typically German she was, unbelievably, prosecuted as a ‘minor’.!
However I acknowledge that it is a very Irish characteristic to ‘never forgive nor ever forget’, so you may feel differently.
There should be a Statute of Limitations given the problems of memory loss/distortion etc, don’t you think?
Do you recall the case of John Demjanjuk who was very nearly hanged until someone realised they had the wrong man?
Or the more recent case of the ludicrous prosecution of a 97 German woman because she had been a 17/18 year old typist in one of the camps.Her only ‘crime’ was to have lived so long! Incidentally, and typically German she was, unbelievably, prosecuted as a ‘minor’.!
However I acknowledge that it is a very Irish characteristic to ‘never forgive nor ever forget’, so you may feel differently.
Is your view the same on Jewish pursuit of war criminals 50 years after 1945? I’m just asking.. I’m trying to decide if you feel such crimes should not be so regarded? Also, I’m not saying the comparison is totally valid but the underlying principle stands surely?
and yet it is one of the 57 varieties of IRA who are again killing, and attempting to kill people.
For many in the British Army*, particularly the Infantry the Irish Insurgency came as a godsend.Having been continuously ‘in action’ from 1945 to the withdrawal from Aden in 1967, the prospects for 1968 looked bleak indeed. In fact 1968 was said to have been the first year since 1689 when an English later British soldier had NOT been killed in action somewhere.
Fortunately Unionist greed and incompetence sparked serious disturbances in 1969, eventually forcing the PM, one Harold Wilson Esq to abdicate all responsibility and in complete desperation, send in the Army. The rest should be history.
However at this very moment the Judiciary of Northern Ireland is pursuing a vexatious prosecution against a former Paratrooper of the Ist Battalion the Parachute Regiment** for his actions during the disturbances of the 30th January 1972 last…..(a Sunday as it happens).
Despite this being over 50 years ago the current Tory Government has done precisely NOTHING to stop this outrage, despite making feeble protestations to the contrary.It is simply PATHETIC.
(* All volunteers from 1961.)
(** Soldier F.)
The English will not go to the barricades for Ulster again. They were shocked and disgusted by “The Troubles” and deeply unimpressed by the DUP supporting John Major’s moribund administration in the later years (1996-7). They regarded the Unionists as archaic, a time which had passed and have no patience with bowlers, sashes and deliverately provocative apprentice marches.
Churchill, mercurial as ever, was convinced the Royal Navy could and would crush Ulster/Belfast in 1914, but we wouldn’t want to mention that would we?
We have jettisoned the Empire without too much trouble, so NOW it is time to jettison the Union. Between them Northern Ireland and Scotland cost England about £30 billion* per annum. We can no longer afford such largesse for so little return.
Consummatum est!
(* The wretched Barnett Formula!)
Yes, and not only that, but, as an Ulsterman, in my view, continually being propped up -financially and psychologically – creates a form of politics in NI which is forever trapped in adolescence. I’ve been saying for 30 years that one way to solve the North of Ireland is for both GB and ROI simultaneously to declare that they wash their hands of it. This is where we need to get to:
https://ayenaw.com/2021/02/06/venn-land/
SPLENDID! I couldn’t agree more.
If that’s your blogpost Frank, it’s very good.
Very interesting article you wrote there. I do think that your argument stands regardless of your views on Brexit – so there really is no need to risk antagonising people by stating your dislike of Brexit or Boris Johnson.
I’d be surprised if many English people recognise your description of Johnson’s government as being “colonialist” in Northern Ireland – nor any of its predecessors. For my entire lifetime, the UK attitude to Northern Ireland seems to be much more one of exasperation, sometimes incomprehension and great patience (Mrs. Binfield in Harry Enfield’s sketch). I suspect very few of us are seeking to get more involved.
SPLENDID! I couldn’t agree more.
If that’s your blogpost Frank, it’s very good.
Very interesting article you wrote there. I do think that your argument stands regardless of your views on Brexit – so there really is no need to risk antagonising people by stating your dislike of Brexit or Boris Johnson.
I’d be surprised if many English people recognise your description of Johnson’s government as being “colonialist” in Northern Ireland – nor any of its predecessors. For my entire lifetime, the UK attitude to Northern Ireland seems to be much more one of exasperation, sometimes incomprehension and great patience (Mrs. Binfield in Harry Enfield’s sketch). I suspect very few of us are seeking to get more involved.
Charles once again your £30bn figure is corret. I saw this article AFTER I posted my article, which by sheer accuracy – also mentioend £30bn subsidy.
For once we agree Charlie!
Thank you Mr Mahony.
Tá fáilte romhait (you’re welcome).. it’s pronounced taw fall-cheh rowth..
I am surprised, as I was expecting
“Póg mo thóin!”
I am surprised, as I was expecting
“Póg mo thóin!”
Tá fáilte romhait (you’re welcome).. it’s pronounced taw fall-cheh rowth..
Thank you Mr Mahony.
Yes, and not only that, but, as an Ulsterman, in my view, continually being propped up -financially and psychologically – creates a form of politics in NI which is forever trapped in adolescence. I’ve been saying for 30 years that one way to solve the North of Ireland is for both GB and ROI simultaneously to declare that they wash their hands of it. This is where we need to get to:
https://ayenaw.com/2021/02/06/venn-land/
Charles once again your £30bn figure is corret. I saw this article AFTER I posted my article, which by sheer accuracy – also mentioend £30bn subsidy.
For once we agree Charlie!
Churchill, mercurial as ever, was convinced the Royal Navy could and would crush Ulster/Belfast in 1914, but we wouldn’t want to mention that would we?
We have jettisoned the Empire without too much trouble, so NOW it is time to jettison the Union. Between them Northern Ireland and Scotland cost England about £30 billion* per annum. We can no longer afford such largesse for so little return.
Consummatum est!
(* The wretched Barnett Formula!)
”The British’ (what could be left of them) – are not that wedded to Scotland nor NI. Yes, it would be ”nice” to keep the UK together – but honestly? the constant moaning and trouble caused has to be taken into account. – to say nothing of the ”Barnet Formula” £15bn subsidy a year each to both Scotnaldn and NI fron The English (Sorry Wales but you get a subsidy too).
England (and Wales?) would be much better off financially of NI and Scotland decided to leave UK.
I doubt very much whether the actual tiny Irish Economy (removing the legalised money launderging that counts as their GDP) could afford the £15bn pa subsity needed to keep NI afloat. So its not just whether NI wants a united Ireland – but does Ireland?
Frankly I’m ambivalent on the question.. as an Anglican in the ROI I can say I’ve never been discriminated against. It would be nice to reunite but the vision of belligerent NI politicians (from both sides) in our parliament does not appeal to me. We in the ROI are non sectarian, and wholly accommodating compared to our waring brothers and sisters up north.
Personally, I think a devolved NI Assembly is a good solution and it matters very little to the vast majority of NI folk whether GHQ is in Westminster or Dublin..
Since GB caused the divide in the first place and handled the whole debacle so badly GB must foot the bill for 10 years or so, but reducing gradually to zero. The US and EU will also support us financially and so the cost will be easily absorbed.
With Scexit on the cards and maybe Wexit as well we can form a new Federation of Celtic States. We might even entice Cornwall to join us? Then we can link up with our Norse kinfolk and enlarge the FCS to the Federation of Nordic & Celtic States.. I jest of course …or do I?
Edward Bruce ( de Brus) tried that in 1315-18 and ended up being hacked into five pieces!
There is no Scexit – stop dreaming of your celtic ‘Cabal’
You say ”The EU will support us”? really how come they didnt in 2009 when Ireland needed a bail out? That was refused by ECB and is was THE UK (the mortal enemy) that cut The Irish a cheque for £7bn NOT your fabulous EU. Remember that? if you dotn – check it out.
Its not Ireland The USA turns to when in need – Its the UK Military – when the chips are down The UK is the (mostly) staunch ally, with military and intelligence might, nothign to do with a so-called passing ”Irish” (not really Irish) President Biden.
Edward Bruce ( de Brus) tried that in 1315-18 and ended up being hacked into five pieces!
There is no Scexit – stop dreaming of your celtic ‘Cabal’
You say ”The EU will support us”? really how come they didnt in 2009 when Ireland needed a bail out? That was refused by ECB and is was THE UK (the mortal enemy) that cut The Irish a cheque for £7bn NOT your fabulous EU. Remember that? if you dotn – check it out.
Its not Ireland The USA turns to when in need – Its the UK Military – when the chips are down The UK is the (mostly) staunch ally, with military and intelligence might, nothign to do with a so-called passing ”Irish” (not really Irish) President Biden.
Frankly I’m ambivalent on the question.. as an Anglican in the ROI I can say I’ve never been discriminated against. It would be nice to reunite but the vision of belligerent NI politicians (from both sides) in our parliament does not appeal to me. We in the ROI are non sectarian, and wholly accommodating compared to our waring brothers and sisters up north.
Personally, I think a devolved NI Assembly is a good solution and it matters very little to the vast majority of NI folk whether GHQ is in Westminster or Dublin..
Since GB caused the divide in the first place and handled the whole debacle so badly GB must foot the bill for 10 years or so, but reducing gradually to zero. The US and EU will also support us financially and so the cost will be easily absorbed.
With Scexit on the cards and maybe Wexit as well we can form a new Federation of Celtic States. We might even entice Cornwall to join us? Then we can link up with our Norse kinfolk and enlarge the FCS to the Federation of Nordic & Celtic States.. I jest of course …or do I?
”The British’ (what could be left of them) – are not that wedded to Scotland nor NI. Yes, it would be ”nice” to keep the UK together – but honestly? the constant moaning and trouble caused has to be taken into account. – to say nothing of the ”Barnet Formula” £15bn subsidy a year each to both Scotnaldn and NI fron The English (Sorry Wales but you get a subsidy too).
England (and Wales?) would be much better off financially of NI and Scotland decided to leave UK.
I doubt very much whether the actual tiny Irish Economy (removing the legalised money launderging that counts as their GDP) could afford the £15bn pa subsity needed to keep NI afloat. So its not just whether NI wants a united Ireland – but does Ireland?
An excellent and informative piece albeit without any information on the Nationalist movement within Ireland as a whole, including Ulster.. people forget that 3 of Ulster’s 9 counties lie in the Republic so any Unionist reference to Ulster as synonymous with NI is fallacious and serves only to avoid using a term that is highly repugnant to diehard Orangemen, namely the word “Ireland”. Of course they also have the problem, when referring to ROI as “the South” that the most northerly point on the entire Ireland is Malin Head which, for them is paradoxically in “The South”! I’m always surprised the Orangemen, when in tyrannical control didn’t name the state Orangeland or Carsonland in order to drop all references to “Ireland”.
Hibernia might have been a better choice. After all that is what ‘you know who’ called it.
Hibernia might have been a better choice. After all that is what ‘you know who’ called it.
An excellent and informative piece albeit without any information on the Nationalist movement within Ireland as a whole, including Ulster.. people forget that 3 of Ulster’s 9 counties lie in the Republic so any Unionist reference to Ulster as synonymous with NI is fallacious and serves only to avoid using a term that is highly repugnant to diehard Orangemen, namely the word “Ireland”. Of course they also have the problem, when referring to ROI as “the South” that the most northerly point on the entire Ireland is Malin Head which, for them is paradoxically in “The South”! I’m always surprised the Orangemen, when in tyrannical control didn’t name the state Orangeland or Carsonland in order to drop all references to “Ireland”.
The key word here being “once”
The key word here being “once”
The article had to miss something out, but Liverpool had its own sectarian Protestant Councillor(s) until 1973.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Protestant_Party
Northern Ireland: It is a constituent region of the United Kingdom, located in the northeast of the island of Ireland. It is made up of six counties: Antrim, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh and Tyrone. The history of Northern Ireland has been marked by religious and political conflicts, especially during the Northern Ireland conflict, which lasted from the 1960s to 1998. This conflict mainly pitted unionists (who wanted to maintain the union with Great Britain) against each other. and nationalists (who sought the reunification of Ireland). The Good Friday Agreement in 1998 helped establish a peace process and a devolution of power to a Northern Ireland Assembly , I would have liked it to be like that in Mexico that change in that way but it was not like that
Northern Ireland: It is a constituent region of the United Kingdom, located in the northeast of the island of Ireland. It is made up of six counties: Antrim, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh and Tyrone. The history of Northern Ireland has been marked by religious and political conflicts, especially during the Northern Ireland conflict, which lasted from the 1960s to 1998. This conflict mainly pitted unionists (who wanted to maintain the union with Great Britain) against each other. and nationalists (who sought the reunification of Ireland). The Good Friday Agreement in 1998 helped establish a peace process and a devolution of power to a Northern Ireland Assembly , I would have liked it to be like that in Mexico that change in that way but it was not like that
The article had to miss something out, but Liverpool had its own sectarian Protestant Councillor(s) until 1973.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Protestant_Party
First rate.
First rate.
Fear of the ‘other’ used to generate populist support – a playbook used more than once in our collective history as we know.
One might add – a colonial legacy where consequences are far from exhausted, but perhaps that’s another Article.
..it would be if the ‘other’ and associated bigotry was indeed confined to past history.. sadly, the dirty tricks dept of GB’s deep state is still very active.. look at the newspaper headlines!