X Close

What Posie Parker learnt from Brexit Every campaign needs its shock troops

(Andy Buchanan / AFP)


March 29, 2023   6 mins

When I call Posie Parker the Nigel Farage of Terfs, I mean it as a compliment. I can’t think of another single-issue campaigner so effective at popular communication, so successful in reordering the political landscape — and so reviled for it by the Respectable People whose political gatekeeping both Farage and Posie blithely ignore.

Twitter is still full of otherwise seemingly nice people, fantasising about a world in which Farage had died horribly in his 2010 plane crash. And where Posie — AKA Kellie-Jay Keen —  is concerned, the murderous fantasies are even more openly expressed. Over the weekend, Keen faced a baying mob of counter-protesters at her Let Women Speak event in New Zealand. She left without addressing the crowd, and later described the swarm around her, whipped up by calls to “kill the Nazi”, as “completely rabid”. She claims she thought that “this was it” and she was about to be crushed to death.

The mob smashed down barricades and roared their rage, one spattering her with red soup designed to symbolise blood. Keen, five feet nothing, seemed almost swallowed by the seething mass of haters.

What happened last weekend in New Zealand isn’t confined to one side of an otherwise principled political debate, in which a few bad actors are spoiling things for everyone else. It’s the latest instance of a post-democratic style of politics now well on its way to being the new normal.

It follows a pattern inseparable from the viral power of social media and its anonymous denizens: a fusion of “high” and “low” politics, in which Farage was a definitive innovator. But if Farage pioneered this populist style, it’s now being wielded far more widely — including to defend the status quo.

I’m perhaps a relative outlier among Britain’s broadly liberal-Left-inclined Terf sorority, many of whom were horrified by Brexit. I was on the ground in 2016 handing out Vote Leave flyers. Even then, it struck me as significant that there were not one but two Brexit campaigns. When it came to boots on the ground, the two “sides” worked together amiably enough — but the class and cultural differences were palpable.

The split was roughly along the lines I have characterised as Virtuals and Physicals: knowledge workers and real-world workers. Vote Leave addressed itself to the “respectable” mainstream, which is to say, the Virtuals. They put up media spokespeople who said carefully tuned things about regulations and democracy and taking back control. Its volunteers were mostly, like me, middle-class. Farage’s side, Grassroots Out, recruited from and spoke more to those among the Physicals who supported Brexit. To this end, GO used much more direct language and populist tropes, and was far less restrained than Vote Leave about referencing certain less polite aspects of the issue: such as the fact that, for some, Brexit really was about immigration.

Farage and Keen have a great deal in common. Both are Marmite figures, as iconic in look, manner and rhetorical directness as they are loathed by the bien pensant. Both are gifted communicators, skilled at being heard beyond their bubbles. Both have, as a result, faced accusations from their own side of turning their respective campaigns into a “cult of personality”.

And both are accused of flirting with “the far-Right”. This is as you’d expect. In the 21st century, Progress means the unbounded forward march of commerce and technology. And any effort at all to set any limits on that forward march, by calling for limits on the free global movement of low-skilled labour, for example, makes you far-Right by definition. As for asserting a sexed limit to self-identification, this also amounts to standing athwart the march of commerce and technology, yelling “Stop!”. Sorry, Posie: you’re also far-Right.

This definition expands, too, beyond Keen to everyone who knows biology exists, making any effort at positioning oneself as “one of the Left-wing Terfs” mostly a futile exercise in self-muzzling. Even so, it’s applied with particular vehemence to anyone who, like Farage and Keen, demonstrates a talent for mobilising protest campaigns among the masses upon whom this model of Progress imposes the highest cost and least upside.

But this is only one side of an effective 21st-century political campaign. Even as Keen’s voice has reached mainstream women, the other gender-critical campaign — the side analogous to Vote Leave — has also flourished, at one remove from the rambunctious, plain-speaking populist one. This growing ecosystem of campaigning groups and other bodies stays meticulously within the norms of civil discourse, and orients itself less toward public awareness than regulatory and policy shifts. Transgender Trend, for example, produces resource packs to help schools support gay and gender diverse youth while protecting appropriate sex segregation. Sex Matters seeks to uphold the political and legal salience of biological sex across the board. It is, in essence, the Grassroots Out/Vote Leave model.

It is meaningless to say one or the other is more effective: they are complementary. And in this new, twin-faced digital-era template for politics, the official electoral process is rendered largely irrelevant. Its Virtual aspect is led by named figures, who play ostentatiously by the liberal rules: open debate, civil discourse, equality before the law and so on — all while working assiduously behind the scenes to capture supposedly neutral institutions and deploy their power in service to campaign objectives. This form of pre-political politics then uses institutional power to shape the parameters of the political space itself, thus controlling what is or isn’t on offer to voters at the polling booth. On the liberal side, the transactivist behemoth Stonewall was a trailblazer in this form of politics, and still exerts a startling degree of influence over sex and gender norms via its organisational accreditation programme.

The other face will have controversial lightning-rod front-men or women such as Farage or Keen, but is powered mostly by anonymous social media accounts, whose bios usually carry a plethora of hashtags and insignia announcing their allegiance to campaigns or issues. This side can be swiftly mobilised to fill in petitions, show up to protests, and dogpile opponents. Being anonymous, they’re also largely exempt in practice if not in theory from the formal rules of liberal civil discourse. As such they serve as crucial shock troops in any single-issue campaign.

But this Janus-faced campaigning model, first seen during the EU referendum, isn’t just for dissidents. Rather, its success during Brexit set a new political template that has since been widely adopted. Recently characterised by political economist Thomas Prosser as “low liberalism”, this social media-driven form of political discourse pursues liberal aims via sometimes starkly illiberal means, for example the emerging “liberal defence of no-platforming”, or the wholesale delegitimisation of opponents as evil or bad actors.

Prosser sees low liberalism as emerging in the aftermath of the Trump/Brexit revolt, as a popular defence of the status quo against Right-populism. Its first UK manifestation was probably the #FBPE movement that sprang up, first on social media but subsequently in new publications and sometimes very large street demonstrations, to give mass voice to those who rejected Brexit and sought to reverse the referendum; it has since mutated to encompass multiple issues.

The mob that gathered to dogpile Kellie-Jay Keen in New Zealand over the weekend is a textbook example of low liberalism. And such low-liberal mobs serve exactly the same purpose as any other swarm of hashtag ideologues. That is, they serve as authoritarian shock troops for others who benefit politically from their actions but prefer not to be tainted with their methods. The antipodean politicians and journalists who first demonised Kellie-Jay Keen as undesirable, then refused to condemn the mob who left her in fear for her life, can serenely deny any complicity with the violence unleashed upon her. But I dare say a great many of them privately think what low liberals say out loud: Keen deserved everything she got.

And it’s no use wringing our hands and lamenting the loss of civility in politics. We stopped forming liberal democratic citizens a generation ago, as we began to transition from a print-first to a digital-first culture.

And in this new age, the older norms of neutrality, debate, long-form writing, evidence and so on are meaningful and effective only among a shrinking minority. For this group, the principal vector for political influence isn’t the electoral process, but some distance upstream of it. For the rest, whether it’s in service to the onward march of Progress or arrayed against it, demagoguery is the order of the day. Hashtags, video clips, insinuations — and, increasingly, violent mobs.

This post-democratic form of politics now operates by coordinating formal and informal campaign styles, all with the right measure of deniability. You can’t move the political needle if you only have internet crazies — because (as the Capitol rioters discovered in America) you can riot all you like but if you’re not backed up by any institutional power, you’re toast. Equally, without a convincingly large mob of online crazies who can be mobilised to defend your programme, you’re vulnerable to accusations of being one of the “sinister elites” of conspiracy mythology.

Of course, this game is heavily rigged in favour of one team. Covid debates saw the creeping politicisation of everything propagated, with ever greater shamelessness, under the banner of liberal neutrality. And under this order the Good Internet Crazies, the “low liberals”, are routinely given a pass for levels of illiberalism and overall derangement that would have their enemies permanently tarred as beyond the pale.

But the larger point is that in a digital-first culture, there’s no stuffing the post-democratic genie back in the bottle. There’s nothing to be gained from lamenting the end of civility, or reasoned discourse, much-missed though these are. And there’s no point complaining about egregious asymmetries in how bad behaviour is punished, between the Good Crazies (who are just passionate) and the Bad Crazies (who are evil). The only way forward is to stop singing threnodies for a vanished political order, and start thinking strategically about how to survive in the one that replaced it.


Mary Harrington is a contributing editor at UnHerd.

moveincircles

Join the discussion


Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber


To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.

Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.

Subscribe
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

107 Comments
Most Voted
Newest Oldest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

Love these articles – but Mary does have a bit of a tendency to over-complicate things. The real similarity between Keen and Farage – and Trump ( or Bannon) for that matter – is that they are both defending traditional constitutional democracy from a new and terrifying form of authoritarianism based on government by self-selected elites who impose their rule using methods – such as the enforced lying imposed by trans activism and the uprooting and transfer of large populations – that are borrowed from the great dictators.

We should not be ambivalent about supporting them.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I agree entirely. There is a reason for the new style in the face of those who would betray us right under our noses namely the remain and globalist factor in the tory party. We are terribly blessed by having Posie Parker who says what most of us think. She has practically put her life on the line and we ought to back up her courage by acknowledging the truth she espouses. We shouldn’t be against people of course, just against the lie that is being peddled.

Chauncey Gardiner
Chauncey Gardiner
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

“… borrowed from the great dictators.”
Indeed. Ain’t nuthin’ new about anti-democratic governance.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I wonder why people seem to read things that no-one said into articles so often! Mary Harrington is quite clearly on one side of this debate and didn’t say at any point she didn’t support that side. However she makes the perfectly well argued point, and sadly I think she’s right, that there is no going back to the old politics.

The idea that Trump is supporting constitutional democracy is too laughable for words. His side’s sins and power may be less but sins they are nonetheless. “Who started it” in the US is a complex historical question but the Republicans are certainly not innocent as they strategically weaponised gun owing and abortion which had not been the toxic issues they had before, to offset their disadvantage among urban populations. Threatening to imprison your election opponent, as Trump did in 2016, hardly shows him to be a paragon of constitutional propriety! But it is just too depressing for words how people on the Right still see this primarily self interested and crude individual as a saviour rather than the guarantor of permanent defeat he actually represents. Lots of people love him, far more loathe him. Can we count even?

And when we say “support”, what are we actually doing, other than preaching to the largely converted on here? My depressing analysis is that the woke are winning. They work much harder and have much more strategic nous than the other side, who as your comment showed seem to focus on one or other individual “saviours”. Even if they were political geniuses that wouldn’t be enough, but as with your Mr Trump (or Johnson for that matter) they usually are anything but. The wokistas have by now captured most institutions, it’s a cultural revolution – we might get a few carve outs for women’s sports but that will be about it.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I agree entirely. There is a reason for the new style in the face of those who would betray us right under our noses namely the remain and globalist factor in the tory party. We are terribly blessed by having Posie Parker who says what most of us think. She has practically put her life on the line and we ought to back up her courage by acknowledging the truth she espouses. We shouldn’t be against people of course, just against the lie that is being peddled.

Chauncey Gardiner
Chauncey Gardiner
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

“… borrowed from the great dictators.”
Indeed. Ain’t nuthin’ new about anti-democratic governance.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I wonder why people seem to read things that no-one said into articles so often! Mary Harrington is quite clearly on one side of this debate and didn’t say at any point she didn’t support that side. However she makes the perfectly well argued point, and sadly I think she’s right, that there is no going back to the old politics.

The idea that Trump is supporting constitutional democracy is too laughable for words. His side’s sins and power may be less but sins they are nonetheless. “Who started it” in the US is a complex historical question but the Republicans are certainly not innocent as they strategically weaponised gun owing and abortion which had not been the toxic issues they had before, to offset their disadvantage among urban populations. Threatening to imprison your election opponent, as Trump did in 2016, hardly shows him to be a paragon of constitutional propriety! But it is just too depressing for words how people on the Right still see this primarily self interested and crude individual as a saviour rather than the guarantor of permanent defeat he actually represents. Lots of people love him, far more loathe him. Can we count even?

And when we say “support”, what are we actually doing, other than preaching to the largely converted on here? My depressing analysis is that the woke are winning. They work much harder and have much more strategic nous than the other side, who as your comment showed seem to focus on one or other individual “saviours”. Even if they were political geniuses that wouldn’t be enough, but as with your Mr Trump (or Johnson for that matter) they usually are anything but. The wokistas have by now captured most institutions, it’s a cultural revolution – we might get a few carve outs for women’s sports but that will be about it.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

Love these articles – but Mary does have a bit of a tendency to over-complicate things. The real similarity between Keen and Farage – and Trump ( or Bannon) for that matter – is that they are both defending traditional constitutional democracy from a new and terrifying form of authoritarianism based on government by self-selected elites who impose their rule using methods – such as the enforced lying imposed by trans activism and the uprooting and transfer of large populations – that are borrowed from the great dictators.

We should not be ambivalent about supporting them.

Dominic Murray
Dominic Murray
1 year ago

There’s a report on BBC (Australia website from 22nd March) of attacks on LBGT groups at a church by far right supporters of One Nation. It references the Posie Parker attack:
“Tuesday’s incident follows last Saturday’s clashes outside the Victorian state parliament in Melbourne between rival protest groups at a “Let Women Speak” event being staged by British activist Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull.
The presence of neo-Nazis at that event, in apparent support of Ms Keen-Minshull, has triggered a huge backlash, with calls for Victoria to tighten up state laws on the display of hate symbols, including Nazi salutes.
The Australian Liberal Party is also attempting to expel its MP Moira Deeming, who attended the event and was photographed alongside Ms Keen-Minshull.”
Couldn’t see any reports on the attack on Posie Parker, though. Must have escaped their attention.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic Murray

Another BBC lie then.

Simon S
Simon S
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

I have to say it – the BBC has become a national disgrace.

Simon S
Simon S
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

I have to say it – the BBC has become a national disgrace.

Lesley Keay
Lesley Keay
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic Murray

I believe that Melbourne Police subsequently confirmed that there were six different groups holding events outside the Parliament. They also confirmed that the neo-Nazis and Let Women Speak events were not connected and that there was no interaction between them. Not that this was widely reported, or reported at all over here.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Lesley Keay

I’ll bet my house that the “neo-Nazis” were trans activists false-flagging.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Absolutely correct.
It’s strange that the real, live Nazis
in the Ukrainian army are somehow escaping
the attention of the western media.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Absolutely correct.
And yet somehow, the real live NA ZI S in the Ukrainian army have escaped the attention of the western media.

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

or agents of Victoria’s very own dictator?

Michael Cunningham
Michael Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

My impression was that the small group were genuine neo-Nazis. But the Oz press falsely implied links with PP.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Absolutely correct.
It’s strange that the real, live Nazis
in the Ukrainian army are somehow escaping
the attention of the western media.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Absolutely correct.
And yet somehow, the real live NA ZI S in the Ukrainian army have escaped the attention of the western media.

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

or agents of Victoria’s very own dictator?

Michael Cunningham
Michael Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

My impression was that the small group were genuine neo-Nazis. But the Oz press falsely implied links with PP.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 year ago
Reply to  Lesley Keay

“…not widely reported…” is a favorite technique of the powers-that-be; the NYTimes uses it constantly. They count on all those people who get their news from a quick glance at their phones to not notice. Very insidious, very difficult to counter-act.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Lesley Keay

I’ll bet my house that the “neo-Nazis” were trans activists false-flagging.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 year ago
Reply to  Lesley Keay

“…not widely reported…” is a favorite technique of the powers-that-be; the NYTimes uses it constantly. They count on all those people who get their news from a quick glance at their phones to not notice. Very insidious, very difficult to counter-act.

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic Murray

All of these protests are just indicators of wealthy, decadent societies littered with too many people who don’t have enough to do other than to play with their belly buttons. Serious people have responsibilities and not the time nor interest in what is just pure, unadulterated narcissism.

Last edited 1 year ago by Cathy Carron
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

Extremely well put.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

Extremely well put.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic Murray

I’m pleased to see that the disgraceful attempt to vilify and silence Moira Deeming is rebounding on the appalling John Pesutto.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic Murray

Another BBC lie then.

Lesley Keay
Lesley Keay
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic Murray

I believe that Melbourne Police subsequently confirmed that there were six different groups holding events outside the Parliament. They also confirmed that the neo-Nazis and Let Women Speak events were not connected and that there was no interaction between them. Not that this was widely reported, or reported at all over here.

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic Murray

All of these protests are just indicators of wealthy, decadent societies littered with too many people who don’t have enough to do other than to play with their belly buttons. Serious people have responsibilities and not the time nor interest in what is just pure, unadulterated narcissism.

Last edited 1 year ago by Cathy Carron
Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic Murray

I’m pleased to see that the disgraceful attempt to vilify and silence Moira Deeming is rebounding on the appalling John Pesutto.

Dominic Murray
Dominic Murray
1 year ago

There’s a report on BBC (Australia website from 22nd March) of attacks on LBGT groups at a church by far right supporters of One Nation. It references the Posie Parker attack:
“Tuesday’s incident follows last Saturday’s clashes outside the Victorian state parliament in Melbourne between rival protest groups at a “Let Women Speak” event being staged by British activist Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull.
The presence of neo-Nazis at that event, in apparent support of Ms Keen-Minshull, has triggered a huge backlash, with calls for Victoria to tighten up state laws on the display of hate symbols, including Nazi salutes.
The Australian Liberal Party is also attempting to expel its MP Moira Deeming, who attended the event and was photographed alongside Ms Keen-Minshull.”
Couldn’t see any reports on the attack on Posie Parker, though. Must have escaped their attention.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago

There is nothing liberal – low, high, whatever – about these hideous, hateful, violent mobs, or the media that urges them on. They’re tribal savages and they are exclusively on the left. For all the bleating about “far right extremists”, you simply don’t see this behavior. Even the protest at the US capitol had to be seeded with federal agents who removed barricades, scaled walls when everyone else simply walked up the steps, broke windows when capitol police opened doors through which people calmly walked – and, hard as it is to believe in 21st Century America, there are political prisoners from that day in jail who, for over two years, haven’t even been given a trial.
Compare “Occupy Wall Street” to the “Tea Party” movements in the late 2000s. Have a gander at Antifa and CHOP and BLM. Riots, destruction, brutality, bloodshed – all hallmarks of left wing beastliness.
What was done to Posie Parker happens on American college campuses all the time to anyone who deviates from the accepted leftist nonthink. It’s the Khmer Rouge, but the uniform is in rainbow colors and lipstick now.

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago

Pardon a Brit for asking, but doesn’t your sixth amendment say
‘In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial’ ?

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  D Glover

I’m sorry to have to admit this, but Americans are suffering a post-Constitutional United States run by we know not who.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  D Glover

The rule of law only works if justice departments and district attorney’s apply it. They are no longer on board with it at all.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  D Glover

I’m sorry to have to admit this, but Americans are suffering a post-Constitutional United States run by we know not who.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  D Glover

The rule of law only works if justice departments and district attorney’s apply it. They are no longer on board with it at all.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

Your last sentence made me think of this article: https://areomagazine.com/2023/03/15/cute-authoritarianism/

Betsy Warrior
Betsy Warrior
1 year ago

As time often shows these mobs will eventually reveal themselves to be a covert-right.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  Betsy Warrior

You have to be a troll, right?

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  Betsy Warrior

You have to be a troll, right?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

In a similar spirit, I refer to the likes of Greenpeace and Extinction Rebellion as the Vert Rouge.

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago

Pardon a Brit for asking, but doesn’t your sixth amendment say
‘In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial’ ?

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

Your last sentence made me think of this article: https://areomagazine.com/2023/03/15/cute-authoritarianism/

Betsy Warrior
Betsy Warrior
1 year ago

As time often shows these mobs will eventually reveal themselves to be a covert-right.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

In a similar spirit, I refer to the likes of Greenpeace and Extinction Rebellion as the Vert Rouge.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago

There is nothing liberal – low, high, whatever – about these hideous, hateful, violent mobs, or the media that urges them on. They’re tribal savages and they are exclusively on the left. For all the bleating about “far right extremists”, you simply don’t see this behavior. Even the protest at the US capitol had to be seeded with federal agents who removed barricades, scaled walls when everyone else simply walked up the steps, broke windows when capitol police opened doors through which people calmly walked – and, hard as it is to believe in 21st Century America, there are political prisoners from that day in jail who, for over two years, haven’t even been given a trial.
Compare “Occupy Wall Street” to the “Tea Party” movements in the late 2000s. Have a gander at Antifa and CHOP and BLM. Riots, destruction, brutality, bloodshed – all hallmarks of left wing beastliness.
What was done to Posie Parker happens on American college campuses all the time to anyone who deviates from the accepted leftist nonthink. It’s the Khmer Rouge, but the uniform is in rainbow colors and lipstick now.

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago

This is a report of an incident in Newquay, where demonstrators both opposed and supported asylum seekers.
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/newquay-asylum-seeker-protests-violence-8291143
‘A local woman was also shoved and knocked to the ground by one of the anti-fascist group in black with his face covered. The incident was witnessed by CornwallLive. The culprit disappeared into the crowd. The victim did not want to speak about it.’
It’s an odd perversion of language when a man in black uniform and ski mask commits assault and is called ‘anti-fascist’

Last edited 1 year ago by D Glover
Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  D Glover

Somewhat Orwellian, I’d say.

Jonny Stud
Jonny Stud
1 year ago
Reply to  D Glover

He wasn’t wearing a brown shirt y’see.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonny Stud

Mussolini’s thugs wore black shirts, as did Oswald Moseley’s BUF lampooned by P.G.Wodehouse as Roderick Spode and the Blackshorts.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonny Stud

Mussolini’s thugs wore black shirts, as did Oswald Moseley’s BUF lampooned by P.G.Wodehouse as Roderick Spode and the Blackshorts.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  D Glover

Somewhat Orwellian, I’d say.

Jonny Stud
Jonny Stud
1 year ago
Reply to  D Glover

He wasn’t wearing a brown shirt y’see.

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago

This is a report of an incident in Newquay, where demonstrators both opposed and supported asylum seekers.
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/newquay-asylum-seeker-protests-violence-8291143
‘A local woman was also shoved and knocked to the ground by one of the anti-fascist group in black with his face covered. The incident was witnessed by CornwallLive. The culprit disappeared into the crowd. The victim did not want to speak about it.’
It’s an odd perversion of language when a man in black uniform and ski mask commits assault and is called ‘anti-fascist’

Last edited 1 year ago by D Glover
Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago

At the end of the day all that really matters is who has the guns. Things are going to get worse until society breaks down. In the US it is ‘the deplorables’ who have the guns. They are the army members, police officers, and million and millions of citizens. In most other countries it is people who live in the country. I don’t know where all this will end – but my guess is that deplorables are generally better at violence than progressives.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

At a human scale you mean? Nothing wrong with the warmongering efforts of the progressives


Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Give the technocrats a few more years marrying Boston Dynamics with ChatGPT and guns won’t be enough.

Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Deplorables don’t control the army, police or the deep state. And the guns of the local deplorable is no use against the state.

Gordon Black
Gordon Black
1 year ago

Vietnam? Afghanistan?

Gordon Black
Gordon Black
1 year ago

Vietnam? Afghanistan?

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

At a human scale you mean? Nothing wrong with the warmongering efforts of the progressives


Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Give the technocrats a few more years marrying Boston Dynamics with ChatGPT and guns won’t be enough.

Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Deplorables don’t control the army, police or the deep state. And the guns of the local deplorable is no use against the state.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago

At the end of the day all that really matters is who has the guns. Things are going to get worse until society breaks down. In the US it is ‘the deplorables’ who have the guns. They are the army members, police officers, and million and millions of citizens. In most other countries it is people who live in the country. I don’t know where all this will end – but my guess is that deplorables are generally better at violence than progressives.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

The comparison with Farage is unfair. He has always engaged in rational argument. That’s why he was feared and hated.

Last edited 1 year ago by Malcolm Knott
Lesley Keay
Lesley Keay
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

So does Posy Parker.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

Kellie-Jay Keen engages in rational argument too.

Lesley Keay
Lesley Keay
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

So does Posy Parker.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

Kellie-Jay Keen engages in rational argument too.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

The comparison with Farage is unfair. He has always engaged in rational argument. That’s why he was feared and hated.

Last edited 1 year ago by Malcolm Knott
Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago

I found this article extremely depressing. I have not given up on open debate and civil discourse, and if, as a society, we do then the future is bleak; it will be the one’s with the biggest guns who win – and that could well not be you. I also wonder about the effect of Twitter outside the Twitter-sphere itself; according to statistics from the web-site Social Shepherd (an organisation that offers advice on social media advertising), in the US 10% of users post over 90% of tweets, so it seems that they are talking to each other not the general populus. Some quick anecdata (I love this word which someone on here posted, I hope you don’t mind my using it) – some time last year, purely for my own interest I asked my friends/family who are on Twitter when they last used it; not one had used it in the previous month and only one in the previous two months, most had not used it since the lifting of lockdown.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago

I agree with you, I have not given up on open debate, civility, objectivity and free speech either. We may or may not ultimately succeed, but our remit is clear: keep fighting for and pushing for open and honest debate in all circumstances, no holds barred, no caveats.

Last edited 1 year ago by Prashant Kotak
laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 year ago

“anecdata” is go!! Lift-off!!

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago

I agree with you, I have not given up on open debate, civility, objectivity and free speech either. We may or may not ultimately succeed, but our remit is clear: keep fighting for and pushing for open and honest debate in all circumstances, no holds barred, no caveats.

Last edited 1 year ago by Prashant Kotak
laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 year ago

“anecdata” is go!! Lift-off!!

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago

I found this article extremely depressing. I have not given up on open debate and civil discourse, and if, as a society, we do then the future is bleak; it will be the one’s with the biggest guns who win – and that could well not be you. I also wonder about the effect of Twitter outside the Twitter-sphere itself; according to statistics from the web-site Social Shepherd (an organisation that offers advice on social media advertising), in the US 10% of users post over 90% of tweets, so it seems that they are talking to each other not the general populus. Some quick anecdata (I love this word which someone on here posted, I hope you don’t mind my using it) – some time last year, purely for my own interest I asked my friends/family who are on Twitter when they last used it; not one had used it in the previous month and only one in the previous two months, most had not used it since the lifting of lockdown.

John Davies
John Davies
1 year ago

The term ‘low liberalism’ cited here is I think generous. For one thing the recourse to paramilitary tactics to attack opponents, not just in debate but via intimidation and actual planned violence, is surely anathema to any understanding of liberalism. Yet this form of activism is increasingly the norm, encouraged and promoted by influential sectors of society, including academia and the media. Arguably the scariest aspect of what we have seen though, in many western countries, including what used to be the sanest of them, is that the leftist parties and political establishments are implicitly supporting the adoption of this form of progressive fascism. When Antifa and BLM terrorise neighbourhoods and burn down whole neighbourhoods in the US, they receive nothing but understanding, encouragement and praise from the Democratic party; the UK Labour party is nowhere to be seen when university platforms are robustly cleansed of non-fellow travellers; and now in Australia and New Zealand political violence is both implicitly and explicitly supported by the new leftist powers that be there. If the left really wants to demonise the ‘far right’ it should embrace respectful democratic principles, not fascism dressed up unconvincingly as liberalism. .

John Davies
John Davies
1 year ago

The term ‘low liberalism’ cited here is I think generous. For one thing the recourse to paramilitary tactics to attack opponents, not just in debate but via intimidation and actual planned violence, is surely anathema to any understanding of liberalism. Yet this form of activism is increasingly the norm, encouraged and promoted by influential sectors of society, including academia and the media. Arguably the scariest aspect of what we have seen though, in many western countries, including what used to be the sanest of them, is that the leftist parties and political establishments are implicitly supporting the adoption of this form of progressive fascism. When Antifa and BLM terrorise neighbourhoods and burn down whole neighbourhoods in the US, they receive nothing but understanding, encouragement and praise from the Democratic party; the UK Labour party is nowhere to be seen when university platforms are robustly cleansed of non-fellow travellers; and now in Australia and New Zealand political violence is both implicitly and explicitly supported by the new leftist powers that be there. If the left really wants to demonise the ‘far right’ it should embrace respectful democratic principles, not fascism dressed up unconvincingly as liberalism. .

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago

“There’s nothing to be gained from lamenting the end of civility, or reasoned discourse, much-missed though these are”.
Perhaps, but that doesn’t stop me from being all bitter and twisted about that loss.

_________________________

All neighbourly content and easy talk are gone,
But there’s no good complaining, for money’s rant is on.
He that’s mounting up must on his neighbour mount,
And we and all the Muses are things of no account.
They have schooling of their own, but I pass their schooling by,
What can they know that we know that know the time to die?
O what of that, O what of that,
What is there left to say?

— William Butler Yeats

Last edited 1 year ago by Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago

“There’s nothing to be gained from lamenting the end of civility, or reasoned discourse, much-missed though these are”.
Perhaps, but that doesn’t stop me from being all bitter and twisted about that loss.

_________________________

All neighbourly content and easy talk are gone,
But there’s no good complaining, for money’s rant is on.
He that’s mounting up must on his neighbour mount,
And we and all the Muses are things of no account.
They have schooling of their own, but I pass their schooling by,
What can they know that we know that know the time to die?
O what of that, O what of that,
What is there left to say?

— William Butler Yeats

Last edited 1 year ago by Prashant Kotak
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

We have become a bureaucratic oligarchy where those running organisations do so for their benefit. If immigration reduced salary, status and security of those running organisations there would no immigration. As Cicero said Cui Bono ? What we should add is who is advantaged and who is disadvantaged?
As Orwell said the intelligentsia live in world of ideas divorced from physical reality. The more someone lives in a virtual world the less they are capable of dealing with the physical. Putin’s invasion of the Ukraine shows what happens when the phyical world is treated with contempt.
G M Trevelyan was concerned that the massive increase in education would produce an intellectual proletariat. What we appear to have is group of upper middle university graduates from top universities using an intellectual proletariat with poor quality secondary and tertiary education as enforcers to impose their will on the blue collar manual workers and those who disagree with them. The French and Communist revolutionaries, largely from a middle to upper middle class background used criminals and unskilled workers from the slums to use savage violence to impose their will on the population.

Andrew M
Andrew M
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

The modern equivalent appears to be an army of young men, labelled asylum seekers.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew M

The middle class intelligentsia are not physicall tough and do not undertake acts of violence themselves but they are good at recruiting those who enjoy violence and want to conceal it under some cloak of moral intellectual or divine superiority( The Inquisition).
We are in a similar situation to a family firm in the third or older generation. There are many family members who draw dividends but do not have the ability to undertake constructive industrious activity. If one studies the vast number of post 14 years of age arts and humanities courses in the Western world they are are a liability not an asset in maintaining civilisation. Latin and Greek helps one learn other languages and understand peoples of different civilisations.Someone who leaves school and enters the high quality apprenticeships offered in Switzerland are assets.
This violence by the Woke left is a projection of the self hatred of vast majority of the inadequate affluent middle class because they are effete, ineffectual and impractical. The affete Left. Compare the Woke Left with say Florence Nightingale( born in wealth) or George Stephenson( born in poverty and illiterate until the age of 18 years) whose industry, practical skill and courage( Stephenson risked his life to save miners) improved the quality of lives of millions.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew M

The middle class intelligentsia are not physicall tough and do not undertake acts of violence themselves but they are good at recruiting those who enjoy violence and want to conceal it under some cloak of moral intellectual or divine superiority( The Inquisition).
We are in a similar situation to a family firm in the third or older generation. There are many family members who draw dividends but do not have the ability to undertake constructive industrious activity. If one studies the vast number of post 14 years of age arts and humanities courses in the Western world they are are a liability not an asset in maintaining civilisation. Latin and Greek helps one learn other languages and understand peoples of different civilisations.Someone who leaves school and enters the high quality apprenticeships offered in Switzerland are assets.
This violence by the Woke left is a projection of the self hatred of vast majority of the inadequate affluent middle class because they are effete, ineffectual and impractical. The affete Left. Compare the Woke Left with say Florence Nightingale( born in wealth) or George Stephenson( born in poverty and illiterate until the age of 18 years) whose industry, practical skill and courage( Stephenson risked his life to save miners) improved the quality of lives of millions.

Andrew M
Andrew M
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

The modern equivalent appears to be an army of young men, labelled asylum seekers.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

We have become a bureaucratic oligarchy where those running organisations do so for their benefit. If immigration reduced salary, status and security of those running organisations there would no immigration. As Cicero said Cui Bono ? What we should add is who is advantaged and who is disadvantaged?
As Orwell said the intelligentsia live in world of ideas divorced from physical reality. The more someone lives in a virtual world the less they are capable of dealing with the physical. Putin’s invasion of the Ukraine shows what happens when the phyical world is treated with contempt.
G M Trevelyan was concerned that the massive increase in education would produce an intellectual proletariat. What we appear to have is group of upper middle university graduates from top universities using an intellectual proletariat with poor quality secondary and tertiary education as enforcers to impose their will on the blue collar manual workers and those who disagree with them. The French and Communist revolutionaries, largely from a middle to upper middle class background used criminals and unskilled workers from the slums to use savage violence to impose their will on the population.

Kirsten Walstedt
Kirsten Walstedt
1 year ago

I am not ready to give up civility, reason, and open discourse, even if I sometimes predict that those of us who feel this way will have to create our own subculture within society where we uphold these values. I also do not feel we have the luxury of choosing just one group that is fighting for women’s rights in the face of many challenges from activists and ideologically captured institutions, from the government to education and the corporate world. That is why I support Kellie Jay Keen, Sex Matters, JK Rowling, Julie Bindel, and other groups who are campaigning against these incursions into women’s private spaces. Am I uneasy sharing this perspective with some members of the Right? Yes, but I can’t let that put me off. I make no common cause with hard right conservatives or ‘neo-nazis’ certainly, but if they agree on this issue I can’t afford to worry about it. More than anything, this points up the betrayal many women feel that we are no longer a priority or perhaps even a concern at all for the Liberal Left.

michael stanwick
michael stanwick
1 year ago

I agree with your sentiments.
I can’t speak for the liberal left as I am not one.
I also do not recognise Keen as a sort of Farage figure either, apart from some superficial modes of speech.

And neither do I see any water between Keen and Sex Matters. Indeed, Helen Joyce is pretty K-J Keen style plain speaking on these matters, and she is a part of Sex matters.

In fact, I have listened to much of Keen’s output on YouTube and in interviews and what is at the heart of her outspoken, frank delivery claims, is the primacy of biological sex and its relationship to truth and its consequences for the existence of men and women in society. And this is also the case with Sex Matters IMO.

Last edited 1 year ago by michael stanwick
Kirsten Walstedt
Kirsten Walstedt
1 year ago

Yes, I agree completely. I am American and therefore not as well versed on Farage and his particularities as I ought to be, but my gut instinct was that it was an odd comparison. Did Farage have a broad populist appeal across the political spectrum on the Brexit issue that made some on the British left feel a bit uneasy that they agreed with him on something?

Last edited 1 year ago by Kirsten Walstedt
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

It wasn’t the British left that agreed with him, rather those traditional Labour supporters in towns ‘left behind’ by de-industrialisation (the Red Wall) who couldn’t support the stance of the Labour party to try to overturn the result of the referendum.

Kirsten Walstedt
Kirsten Walstedt
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I see, thank you.

Jon Barrow
Jon Barrow
1 year ago

The ‘Red Wall’ population tend to be traditional leftists ie culturally conservative but economically leftist (in favour of strong labour protection etc.). 50 years ago Labour were more against open borders, the formative EU, etc. than the Conservatives were (they recognised that a welfare state needed nation states with stable populations, shared values etc. In those days the mantra was not ‘diversity’ but ‘unity’).

Jon Barrow
Jon Barrow
1 year ago

The ‘Red Wall’ population tend to be traditional leftists ie culturally conservative but economically leftist (in favour of strong labour protection etc.). 50 years ago Labour were more against open borders, the formative EU, etc. than the Conservatives were (they recognised that a welfare state needed nation states with stable populations, shared values etc. In those days the mantra was not ‘diversity’ but ‘unity’).

Kirsten Walstedt
Kirsten Walstedt
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I see, thank you.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

It wasn’t the British left that agreed with him, rather those traditional Labour supporters in towns ‘left behind’ by de-industrialisation (the Red Wall) who couldn’t support the stance of the Labour party to try to overturn the result of the referendum.

Kirsten Walstedt
Kirsten Walstedt
1 year ago

Yes, I agree completely. I am American and therefore not as well versed on Farage and his particularities as I ought to be, but my gut instinct was that it was an odd comparison. Did Farage have a broad populist appeal across the political spectrum on the Brexit issue that made some on the British left feel a bit uneasy that they agreed with him on something?

Last edited 1 year ago by Kirsten Walstedt
michael stanwick
michael stanwick
1 year ago

I agree with your sentiments.
I can’t speak for the liberal left as I am not one.
I also do not recognise Keen as a sort of Farage figure either, apart from some superficial modes of speech.

And neither do I see any water between Keen and Sex Matters. Indeed, Helen Joyce is pretty K-J Keen style plain speaking on these matters, and she is a part of Sex matters.

In fact, I have listened to much of Keen’s output on YouTube and in interviews and what is at the heart of her outspoken, frank delivery claims, is the primacy of biological sex and its relationship to truth and its consequences for the existence of men and women in society. And this is also the case with Sex Matters IMO.

Last edited 1 year ago by michael stanwick
Kirsten Walstedt
Kirsten Walstedt
1 year ago

I am not ready to give up civility, reason, and open discourse, even if I sometimes predict that those of us who feel this way will have to create our own subculture within society where we uphold these values. I also do not feel we have the luxury of choosing just one group that is fighting for women’s rights in the face of many challenges from activists and ideologically captured institutions, from the government to education and the corporate world. That is why I support Kellie Jay Keen, Sex Matters, JK Rowling, Julie Bindel, and other groups who are campaigning against these incursions into women’s private spaces. Am I uneasy sharing this perspective with some members of the Right? Yes, but I can’t let that put me off. I make no common cause with hard right conservatives or ‘neo-nazis’ certainly, but if they agree on this issue I can’t afford to worry about it. More than anything, this points up the betrayal many women feel that we are no longer a priority or perhaps even a concern at all for the Liberal Left.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago

“Threnodies”. What a great word. I had to look that up. Greek for ‘durge songs’.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeff Cunningham
James Surry
James Surry
1 year ago

Me too.. what a lovely word.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

Indeed. Which reminds me: i really should stop imploring contributors to Comments to keep the discourse away from the wild-west extremes of Twitter.

Mary Harrington thinks it’s a waste of time, and having read today’s article on time prior to this one, she’s probably right.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Francis Phillips
Francis Phillips
1 year ago

‘dirge songs’.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago

Cool. I have an editor.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago

Cool. I have an editor.

James Surry
James Surry
1 year ago

Me too.. what a lovely word.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

Indeed. Which reminds me: i really should stop imploring contributors to Comments to keep the discourse away from the wild-west extremes of Twitter.

Mary Harrington thinks it’s a waste of time, and having read today’s article on time prior to this one, she’s probably right.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Francis Phillips
Francis Phillips
1 year ago

‘dirge songs’.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago

“Threnodies”. What a great word. I had to look that up. Greek for ‘durge songs’.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeff Cunningham
Michelle Johnston
Michelle Johnston
1 year ago

https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2023/03/guest_post_why_i_wanted_to_speak_in_albert_park_and_why_the_real_fascists_are_the_rainbow-draped_thugs.html
This is a personal account of a lady who would have spoken at the event.
Her plea to the government at the end says it all.
I know why she is concerned.
I also have taken the time to read Gen Zer’s views of why Gender should be eschewed. The article I found on the BBC is a mixture of strawman and overthinking.
They really have not got it that in the West woman and men can do whatever they like, wear whatever they like, and express themselves however they want but that does not change the fact that there are just two biological sexes with a handful of medically intersexed people. They seem entirely caught up with labels rather than just forming a relationship with the human experience and getting on with their lives which is deeply ironic because they always begin these discussions with the issue of “Labels” and why they feel they constrain them.
My question to them is simple which human activity are you unable to fulfill your potential in because you are either a man or a woman?

Last edited 1 year ago by Michelle Johnston
Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago

That unspoken speech by Caitlin Griffin is well-worth reading. Thank you MIchelle Johnston for the link.

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago

That unspoken speech by Caitlin Griffin is well-worth reading. Thank you MIchelle Johnston for the link.

Michelle Johnston
Michelle Johnston
1 year ago

https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2023/03/guest_post_why_i_wanted_to_speak_in_albert_park_and_why_the_real_fascists_are_the_rainbow-draped_thugs.html
This is a personal account of a lady who would have spoken at the event.
Her plea to the government at the end says it all.
I know why she is concerned.
I also have taken the time to read Gen Zer’s views of why Gender should be eschewed. The article I found on the BBC is a mixture of strawman and overthinking.
They really have not got it that in the West woman and men can do whatever they like, wear whatever they like, and express themselves however they want but that does not change the fact that there are just two biological sexes with a handful of medically intersexed people. They seem entirely caught up with labels rather than just forming a relationship with the human experience and getting on with their lives which is deeply ironic because they always begin these discussions with the issue of “Labels” and why they feel they constrain them.
My question to them is simple which human activity are you unable to fulfill your potential in because you are either a man or a woman?

Last edited 1 year ago by Michelle Johnston
Margaret Donaldson
Margaret Donaldson
1 year ago

In the 1970s, the Telegraph had a satirical columnist called Peter Simple. The column was Way of the World. Left wing socialists were the usual butt and one group he especially used was Rentamob, a group who could be relied on to turn up at short notice to turn peaceful protests into running battles. Rentamob is still very much alive and kicking. Busy in France last week, clearly busy down under too. British protesters have learned to be wary of Rentamob who have wrecked many a well-intentioned demo over the years. Nothing changes, pace Ms Harrington, it’s just that every generation has to re-learn things.

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago

Ah, thanks for reminding me.
Peter Simple also had a fanciful story of Aztec immigrants to Britain who demanded the right to do human sacrifice, because it was a part of their religion.
Satire is dead now.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago

If you go to events like the LGB Alliance conferences and mingle with the protesters you will see many familiar faces from anti-Huntington Life Sciences protests etc around Cambridge, and Stalinist remnant hanger-on groups in London. Most are older, white, and certainly not trans. One of them used to be an extremist Muslim of some kind but I think they booted him out – he was lampooned in the ‘Four Lions’ film as Barry.

R Wright
R Wright
1 year ago

I saw Rentamob in Hyde Park once. A bunch of American accented weak looking men dressed in ‘black bloc’. Not sure who hired them.

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago

Ah, thanks for reminding me.
Peter Simple also had a fanciful story of Aztec immigrants to Britain who demanded the right to do human sacrifice, because it was a part of their religion.
Satire is dead now.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago

If you go to events like the LGB Alliance conferences and mingle with the protesters you will see many familiar faces from anti-Huntington Life Sciences protests etc around Cambridge, and Stalinist remnant hanger-on groups in London. Most are older, white, and certainly not trans. One of them used to be an extremist Muslim of some kind but I think they booted him out – he was lampooned in the ‘Four Lions’ film as Barry.

R Wright
R Wright
1 year ago

I saw Rentamob in Hyde Park once. A bunch of American accented weak looking men dressed in ‘black bloc’. Not sure who hired them.

Margaret Donaldson
Margaret Donaldson
1 year ago

In the 1970s, the Telegraph had a satirical columnist called Peter Simple. The column was Way of the World. Left wing socialists were the usual butt and one group he especially used was Rentamob, a group who could be relied on to turn up at short notice to turn peaceful protests into running battles. Rentamob is still very much alive and kicking. Busy in France last week, clearly busy down under too. British protesters have learned to be wary of Rentamob who have wrecked many a well-intentioned demo over the years. Nothing changes, pace Ms Harrington, it’s just that every generation has to re-learn things.

Gordon Arta
Gordon Arta
1 year ago

‘we began to transition from a print-first to a digital-first culture.’ I think it’s more to do with the transition from the age of reason to the ‘age of feelings’.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Gordon Arta

Brought about by ‘digital-first’ culture. Cause and effect.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I think the transition to an emotion-first society started being visible to me from the early 90s (and has roots prior to that) which predates social media by a decade or so. What I would say is that the rise of digital culture and social media put that emotion-first movement on steroids so I can how it would seem that way.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I think the transition to an emotion-first society started being visible to me from the early 90s (and has roots prior to that) which predates social media by a decade or so. What I would say is that the rise of digital culture and social media put that emotion-first movement on steroids so I can how it would seem that way.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Gordon Arta

Brought about by ‘digital-first’ culture. Cause and effect.

Gordon Arta
Gordon Arta
1 year ago

‘we began to transition from a print-first to a digital-first culture.’ I think it’s more to do with the transition from the age of reason to the ‘age of feelings’.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

There’s nothing to be gained from lamenting the end of civility, or reasoned discourse, much-missed though these are….

Is that true to say though, that previously we had reasoned discourse and civility?
The history of most countries is full of riots, political clashes, assassination of political leaders, lots of shouting at each other and wars.
I think the Internet has made it easier to discuss politics, and like here, not just with people local to you but with people all over the world. The more you expand the debate globally like this, the more likely it is you will see clashes between different cultures and politics. It also makes it easier to export political movements.
At the moment, there has been real censorship of one side of the debate in some cases, if you are on the side getting censored it’s very frustrating, I have sympathy with those that get frustrated with this and perhaps people are not as civil as they would be had they been allowed to fairly participate in the first place.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

My background is in academic philosophy, and yet I consider it right and proper to engage in the vitriolic abuse of the woke, because they’re f a s c i s t s c u m.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

ACHTUNG! “Rubber” has returned.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Part of the shock troops?
I like playing debate Mr Craven. I’m waiting for him to philosophically blow my mind. Any day now.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

What purpose is served by trying to reason with someone who thinks that everything is the fault of white men, that rapists should be imprisoned with women, and that children should be sexualised, drugged, and mutilated?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

What purpose is served by trying to reason with someone who thinks that everything is the fault of white men, that rapists should be imprisoned with women, and that children should be sexualised, drugged, and mutilated?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

So it would appear.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Do you want me to leave you and your little club alone now? I’m nearly bored.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Rest assured, the feeling is entirely mutual.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

You bothered my post Mr Craven. I thought you were up for some sport, see my post right at the bottom. You are disappointing me.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

whatever

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

I think as the resident millennial here that is supposed to be my line.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

I think as the resident millennial here that is supposed to be my line.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

whatever

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

You bothered my post Mr Craven. I thought you were up for some sport, see my post right at the bottom. You are disappointing me.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Rest assured, the feeling is entirely mutual.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Do you want me to leave you and your little club alone now? I’m nearly bored.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Part of the shock troops?
I like playing debate Mr Craven. I’m waiting for him to philosophically blow my mind. Any day now.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

So it would appear.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

I see you are still feeling eloquent Mr Craven.
I am probably guilty of a bit of vitriolic abuse myself at times.
Perhaps you could utilise your philosophical brain to refute and destroy the woke arguments you don’t like with persuasive and eloquent arguments of your own instead of the old scum insults, but you know, whatever you feel like.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

That’s like saying that Hitler should have been refuted by philosophical argument. True, he should have been and he was, however that was not sufficient as we found out. Unfortunately war was required. Alas, refuting and destroying woke arguments is fine for those of us who still believe in argument, but it has no effect on the wokies themselves who have left rational argument long behind. Rationality is a System of Oppression after all. Unfortunately the time comes when woke mobs are going to have to be physically defeated, not just politely refuted.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Jesus, you’re a bit militant sounding. I haven’t actually seen any actual mobs of woke people that might need defeating, wandering the British countryside.
So on the unherd community board you think it is better to refer to people you don’t agree with as scum, rather than doing the decent thing and engaging in rigourous political debate?
What does any of this have to do with Hitler?
Rationality is a system of oppression, what on earth are you getting at there?

Josie Bowen
Josie Bowen
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Is the word “Jesus” meaningful in this context?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Josie Bowen

Yes. As in jesus christ this is exasperating.
It’s better than wake the f*ck up to what is actually happening, have you not been paying attention. But nobody really wants to do that.
It’s much easier to throw the word s c u m around and continue your blissful existence.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Josie Bowen

Yes. As in jesus christ this is exasperating.
It’s better than wake the f*ck up to what is actually happening, have you not been paying attention. But nobody really wants to do that.
It’s much easier to throw the word s c u m around and continue your blissful existence.

Jon Barrow
Jon Barrow
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Re your last para, he’s being sarcastic (ie presenting a Woke viewpoint).

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon Barrow

Thanks Einstein. I got that.
I was being lazy, seeing if the poster understood what they were spouting about Rationality and Hitler. They started off badly by saying philosophical argument should be tried, which is what I am pleading for anyway, just a sensible approach to all this, I just want you to think about what you are saying. And then they said it wasn’t enough and war was required, so I assumed they were one of the American civil war type nutters that just want to fight the ‘woke’ and assumes that every single democratic voting person in the US ie: the woke, have completely departed sanity and reason and so it’s not worth bothering engaging with them. I can see democracy working really well when we have reached this point.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon Barrow

Thanks Einstein. I got that.
I was being lazy, seeing if the poster understood what they were spouting about Rationality and Hitler. They started off badly by saying philosophical argument should be tried, which is what I am pleading for anyway, just a sensible approach to all this, I just want you to think about what you are saying. And then they said it wasn’t enough and war was required, so I assumed they were one of the American civil war type nutters that just want to fight the ‘woke’ and assumes that every single democratic voting person in the US ie: the woke, have completely departed sanity and reason and so it’s not worth bothering engaging with them. I can see democracy working really well when we have reached this point.

Josie Bowen
Josie Bowen
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Is the word “Jesus” meaningful in this context?

Jon Barrow
Jon Barrow
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Re your last para, he’s being sarcastic (ie presenting a Woke viewpoint).

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Jesus, you’re a bit militant sounding. I haven’t actually seen any actual mobs of woke people that might need defeating, wandering the British countryside.
So on the unherd community board you think it is better to refer to people you don’t agree with as scum, rather than doing the decent thing and engaging in rigourous political debate?
What does any of this have to do with Hitler?
Rationality is a system of oppression, what on earth are you getting at there?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Civil discourse is entirely inappropriate for dealing with the woke. We need to treat them as misogynistic and racist apologists for the sexualisation, drugging, and mutilation of children, because that is exactly what they are.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Mr Craven. You are one of those I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall with. My last post was lazy. Let me try harder. One last time.
Right. Woke is an American construct. Although we do seem to have imported a bit of this crazy militant progressive business, I think it is a bit far to say that we may need to physically over come mobs of woke people in Britain. If anything, the defeat of sturgeons gender bill and the fact that people came out to peacefully protest against it, is a good example of us actually not really adopting American woke progressive politics.
So, we do not want to stoop to their level do we? The militant progressive movements are not always inclined to engage in debate, they are a bit militant and crazy, but that doesn’t mean we also need to resort to their tactics does it?
I’ve seen you call people woke s*um (sorry apparently sc*m makes this go to awaiting approval?) for a myriad of pretty unfair reasons. Not everybody spouting left wing political ideas or worried about racism, or the far right, or men being morons, or worried about certain aspects of the environment, is a militant woke nutter. There is a lot of confusion about what is left, right, woke, not woke I feel. America exporting this stuff really doesn’t help with the confusion.
You love a sweeping statement. I find it narrow minded.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Methadras Aszlosis
Methadras Aszlosis
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

The circus of the absurd continues and will continue until this nonsense is confronted directly for the fraudulent weaponized ideology that it is. The world is now going to have to confront that lunatic and insane people are driving public policy and that politicians are seemingly in a zombie-like state going with it. Normal-thinking people are so distracted that they either don’t care via apathy, don’t know how to confront this lunacy, or simply wish it to continue for fear of being canceled. Fearlessness in the face of this mind virus needs to be demanded.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Well said. We need to be MUCH more confrontational towards these our souls.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

I see you are all down voting my post and have not been bothered to actually propose anything sensible apart demanding fearlessness or suggesting you cannot reason with these people. Well wow, that’s ground breaking. I can see our problems will be solved quickly like that, that’s the kind of out the box thinking we need.
This ‘nonsense’ will always be a problem as long as people continue to glue themselves to television and mass media. TV is the main mass programming device rapidly being replaced by social media and the Internet. Twitter files for example showed that twitter was biased towards the democratic party, who, surprise, surprise, love the woke idealogy.

‘I hardly write any stories anymore and I don’t work on songs quite as intently as I did in the past. You want to know why???? TELEVISION. Television is the most evil thing on our planet. Go to your TV now and toss it out the window’ – Kurt Cobain.

Quote:

“This psychological bombardment is waged primarily via the mainstream media which assaults the viewer by the hour with images of violence, war, emotions and conflict. Because the human nervous system is hard wired to focus on immediate threats accompanied by depictions of violence, mainstream media viewers have their attention and mental resources funneled into the never-ending ‘crisis of the NOW’ from which they can never have the mental breathing room to apply logic, reason or historical context.”

Professor Jacques Ellul studied this phenomenon of overwhelming news, short memories and the use of propaganda to advance hidden agendas. “One thought drives away another; old facts are chased by new ones,” wrote Ellul.

All the while, the government continues to amass more power and authority over the citizenry

Ultimately, the reality shows, the entertainment news, the surveillance society, the militarized police, and the political spectacles have one common objective: to keep us divided, distracted, imprisoned, and incapable of taking an active role in the business of self-government.

Look behind the political spectacles, the reality TV theatrics, the sleight-of-hand distractions and diversions, and the stomach-churning, nail-biting drama, and you will find there is a method to the madness.

How do you change the way people think? You start by changing the words they use….. ‘

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/state-never-ending-crisis-government-fomenting-mass-hysteria

DISTRACTED.
DIVIDED.
You are like clay in their hands.
The woke stuff here if you really want to know my honest suspicion, is to keep us ‘idealogically aligned’ with America, because they want us to fight the east with them. The woke nutters are already shutting down anti war protests over there, they are useful idiots. You are also useful idiots, just for the other side, when they think they need you to cause a bit more division. They will continue to play you all off against each other, make money and retain power by doing so. Cynical humble opinion.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Well said. We need to be MUCH more confrontational towards these our souls.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

I see you are all down voting my post and have not been bothered to actually propose anything sensible apart demanding fearlessness or suggesting you cannot reason with these people. Well wow, that’s ground breaking. I can see our problems will be solved quickly like that, that’s the kind of out the box thinking we need.
This ‘nonsense’ will always be a problem as long as people continue to glue themselves to television and mass media. TV is the main mass programming device rapidly being replaced by social media and the Internet. Twitter files for example showed that twitter was biased towards the democratic party, who, surprise, surprise, love the woke idealogy.

‘I hardly write any stories anymore and I don’t work on songs quite as intently as I did in the past. You want to know why???? TELEVISION. Television is the most evil thing on our planet. Go to your TV now and toss it out the window’ – Kurt Cobain.

Quote:

“This psychological bombardment is waged primarily via the mainstream media which assaults the viewer by the hour with images of violence, war, emotions and conflict. Because the human nervous system is hard wired to focus on immediate threats accompanied by depictions of violence, mainstream media viewers have their attention and mental resources funneled into the never-ending ‘crisis of the NOW’ from which they can never have the mental breathing room to apply logic, reason or historical context.”

Professor Jacques Ellul studied this phenomenon of overwhelming news, short memories and the use of propaganda to advance hidden agendas. “One thought drives away another; old facts are chased by new ones,” wrote Ellul.

All the while, the government continues to amass more power and authority over the citizenry

Ultimately, the reality shows, the entertainment news, the surveillance society, the militarized police, and the political spectacles have one common objective: to keep us divided, distracted, imprisoned, and incapable of taking an active role in the business of self-government.

Look behind the political spectacles, the reality TV theatrics, the sleight-of-hand distractions and diversions, and the stomach-churning, nail-biting drama, and you will find there is a method to the madness.

How do you change the way people think? You start by changing the words they use….. ‘

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/state-never-ending-crisis-government-fomenting-mass-hysteria

DISTRACTED.
DIVIDED.
You are like clay in their hands.
The woke stuff here if you really want to know my honest suspicion, is to keep us ‘idealogically aligned’ with America, because they want us to fight the east with them. The woke nutters are already shutting down anti war protests over there, they are useful idiots. You are also useful idiots, just for the other side, when they think they need you to cause a bit more division. They will continue to play you all off against each other, make money and retain power by doing so. Cynical humble opinion.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Mr Craven. You are one of those I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall with. My last post was lazy. Let me try harder. One last time.
Right. Woke is an American construct. Although we do seem to have imported a bit of this crazy militant progressive business, I think it is a bit far to say that we may need to physically over come mobs of woke people in Britain. If anything, the defeat of sturgeons gender bill and the fact that people came out to peacefully protest against it, is a good example of us actually not really adopting American woke progressive politics.
So, we do not want to stoop to their level do we? The militant progressive movements are not always inclined to engage in debate, they are a bit militant and crazy, but that doesn’t mean we also need to resort to their tactics does it?
I’ve seen you call people woke s*um (sorry apparently sc*m makes this go to awaiting approval?) for a myriad of pretty unfair reasons. Not everybody spouting left wing political ideas or worried about racism, or the far right, or men being morons, or worried about certain aspects of the environment, is a militant woke nutter. There is a lot of confusion about what is left, right, woke, not woke I feel. America exporting this stuff really doesn’t help with the confusion.
You love a sweeping statement. I find it narrow minded.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Methadras Aszlosis
Methadras Aszlosis
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

The circus of the absurd continues and will continue until this nonsense is confronted directly for the fraudulent weaponized ideology that it is. The world is now going to have to confront that lunatic and insane people are driving public policy and that politicians are seemingly in a zombie-like state going with it. Normal-thinking people are so distracted that they either don’t care via apathy, don’t know how to confront this lunacy, or simply wish it to continue for fear of being canceled. Fearlessness in the face of this mind virus needs to be demanded.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Been there done that. Boring.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Have you got the t shirt? Does that say woke s c u m too?
A very disappointing reply from a man with a history in academia. No wonder the country is broken. You do realise this woke stuff is from the top down? Through universities and such? It’s your own you need to look to for answers as to why it’s being pushed everywhere.
But as you can’t even refute a post from a person whose academic achievements are quite frankly, appalling, I’m not holding out much hope. What do they do you in academia these days? Fill you full of intolerance and ignorance and then let you loose on the country?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

“Have you got the t shirt? Does that say woke s c u m too?”
No, it says “I stand with J.K.Rowling”.
“A very disappointing reply from a man with a history in academia. No wonder the country is broken. You do realise this woke stuff is from the top down? Through universities and such? It’s your own you need to look to for answers as to why it’s being pushed everywhere.”
I quit academia several years ago.
“But as you can’t even refute a post”
I’ve refuted wokery on innumerable occasions previously, and don’t see what further purpose is served by attempting to reason with wilfully irrational, depraved, misogynist, racist apologists for the sexualisation, drugging, and mutilation of children.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Did you see my post about how this stuff is promoted? About the media and television? About the funding into universities? Have you actually followed any of this up?
If you have been arguing with narrow minded people I can understand your frustration Mr Craven, but still. I expect better from our British academics.
You will remember, if your philosophical brain is any good that it was me who posted about the funding behind just stop oil. I also directly replied to you, and linked you to candace owens blm documentary that showed how this was all funded, top down. So. Maybe you could do a bit of that? You know, show that these aren’t grass roots movements, show people in university that actually they are championing the agenda of multi millionaires and not ‘the people’. Maybe that might help?

I could not say enough good things about jk Rowling. The Harry Potter books are a work of genius in my humble opinion. We were the generation queuing outside the bookshops.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Did you see my post about how this stuff is promoted? About the media and television? About the funding into universities? Have you actually followed any of this up?
If you have been arguing with narrow minded people I can understand your frustration Mr Craven, but still. I expect better from our British academics.
You will remember, if your philosophical brain is any good that it was me who posted about the funding behind just stop oil. I also directly replied to you, and linked you to candace owens blm documentary that showed how this was all funded, top down. So. Maybe you could do a bit of that? You know, show that these aren’t grass roots movements, show people in university that actually they are championing the agenda of multi millionaires and not ‘the people’. Maybe that might help?

I could not say enough good things about jk Rowling. The Harry Potter books are a work of genius in my humble opinion. We were the generation queuing outside the bookshops.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

“Have you got the t shirt? Does that say woke s c u m too?”
No, it says “I stand with J.K.Rowling”.
“A very disappointing reply from a man with a history in academia. No wonder the country is broken. You do realise this woke stuff is from the top down? Through universities and such? It’s your own you need to look to for answers as to why it’s being pushed everywhere.”
I quit academia several years ago.
“But as you can’t even refute a post”
I’ve refuted wokery on innumerable occasions previously, and don’t see what further purpose is served by attempting to reason with wilfully irrational, depraved, misogynist, racist apologists for the sexualisation, drugging, and mutilation of children.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Have you got the t shirt? Does that say woke s c u m too?
A very disappointing reply from a man with a history in academia. No wonder the country is broken. You do realise this woke stuff is from the top down? Through universities and such? It’s your own you need to look to for answers as to why it’s being pushed everywhere.
But as you can’t even refute a post from a person whose academic achievements are quite frankly, appalling, I’m not holding out much hope. What do they do you in academia these days? Fill you full of intolerance and ignorance and then let you loose on the country?

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

That’s like saying that Hitler should have been refuted by philosophical argument. True, he should have been and he was, however that was not sufficient as we found out. Unfortunately war was required. Alas, refuting and destroying woke arguments is fine for those of us who still believe in argument, but it has no effect on the wokies themselves who have left rational argument long behind. Rationality is a System of Oppression after all. Unfortunately the time comes when woke mobs are going to have to be physically defeated, not just politely refuted.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Civil discourse is entirely inappropriate for dealing with the woke. We need to treat them as misogynistic and racist apologists for the sexualisation, drugging, and mutilation of children, because that is exactly what they are.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Been there done that. Boring.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

ACHTUNG! “Rubber” has returned.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

I see you are still feeling eloquent Mr Craven.
I am probably guilty of a bit of vitriolic abuse myself at times.
Perhaps you could utilise your philosophical brain to refute and destroy the woke arguments you don’t like with persuasive and eloquent arguments of your own instead of the old scum insults, but you know, whatever you feel like.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

My background is in academic philosophy, and yet I consider it right and proper to engage in the vitriolic abuse of the woke, because they’re f a s c i s t s c u m.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

There’s nothing to be gained from lamenting the end of civility, or reasoned discourse, much-missed though these are….

Is that true to say though, that previously we had reasoned discourse and civility?
The history of most countries is full of riots, political clashes, assassination of political leaders, lots of shouting at each other and wars.
I think the Internet has made it easier to discuss politics, and like here, not just with people local to you but with people all over the world. The more you expand the debate globally like this, the more likely it is you will see clashes between different cultures and politics. It also makes it easier to export political movements.
At the moment, there has been real censorship of one side of the debate in some cases, if you are on the side getting censored it’s very frustrating, I have sympathy with those that get frustrated with this and perhaps people are not as civil as they would be had they been allowed to fairly participate in the first place.

JOHN BINGHAM
JOHN BINGHAM
1 year ago

I fear this is correct for now. However, without a return to civil discourse we will make increasingly bad and eventually disastrous decisions socially and economically.
At present, the best outcome seems to be a more authoritarian defense of what we have, and a state led rolling back of the excesses of the current liberal revolution. But there is no-one in the UK who currently seems to have the stomach or competence for what that involves and it is not an approach without risks. Paradoxically given polling, I think many young people would get behind this because what they really crave in their lives is a measure of authority and order, even just as walls they can hit in protest without the fear that the house will fall down. I think the main appeal of wokeism is that it is authoritarian.

JOHN BINGHAM
JOHN BINGHAM
1 year ago

I fear this is correct for now. However, without a return to civil discourse we will make increasingly bad and eventually disastrous decisions socially and economically.
At present, the best outcome seems to be a more authoritarian defense of what we have, and a state led rolling back of the excesses of the current liberal revolution. But there is no-one in the UK who currently seems to have the stomach or competence for what that involves and it is not an approach without risks. Paradoxically given polling, I think many young people would get behind this because what they really crave in their lives is a measure of authority and order, even just as walls they can hit in protest without the fear that the house will fall down. I think the main appeal of wokeism is that it is authoritarian.

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

Frightening isn’t it?
Arguably we have the ‘perfect wave’ created by the chaos between the end of the ‘old elite’ and the birth of the ‘new elite’ plus the digital severing of the cause and effect trail.
Ordinary people (in the Western world, at least) are confused about which elite will win, and how to draw conclusions about who is the most ‘worthy’.
If you predict that many of the ‘Virtuals’ will be disenfranchised by AI and other algorithmic processes then that leaves only the ‘Physicals’, distanced even further from nuance and debate.

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

Frightening isn’t it?
Arguably we have the ‘perfect wave’ created by the chaos between the end of the ‘old elite’ and the birth of the ‘new elite’ plus the digital severing of the cause and effect trail.
Ordinary people (in the Western world, at least) are confused about which elite will win, and how to draw conclusions about who is the most ‘worthy’.
If you predict that many of the ‘Virtuals’ will be disenfranchised by AI and other algorithmic processes then that leaves only the ‘Physicals’, distanced even further from nuance and debate.

Kirsten Walstedt
Kirsten Walstedt
1 year ago

I will never support mob justice or mob politics, let alone deplatforming or total delegitimization of my opponents in any debate.

Kirsten Walstedt
Kirsten Walstedt
1 year ago

I will never support mob justice or mob politics, let alone deplatforming or total delegitimization of my opponents in any debate.

Paul Dean
Paul Dean
1 year ago

The only way forward is to stop singing threnodies for a vanished political order, and start thinking strategically about how to survive in the one that replaced it.

That’s a nice tie-in to Kingsnorth’s recent article and I think you’re both right.

Last edited 1 year ago by Paul Dean
Paul Dean
Paul Dean
1 year ago

The only way forward is to stop singing threnodies for a vanished political order, and start thinking strategically about how to survive in the one that replaced it.

That’s a nice tie-in to Kingsnorth’s recent article and I think you’re both right.

Last edited 1 year ago by Paul Dean
Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
1 year ago

Brilliant, Mary. Thank You. Can’t wait to read your new book her in the USA.

Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
1 year ago

Brilliant, Mary. Thank You. Can’t wait to read your new book her in the USA.

Bruce Metzger
Bruce Metzger
1 year ago

I have said it many times to any who listens: The new narrow mindedness is from the leftist’s perspective to turn reality inside out; it is intellectual bigotry because they use a perceived point of view as inclusive but disagrees, is intolerant with anyone who disagrees with them.

Bruce Metzger
Bruce Metzger
1 year ago

I have said it many times to any who listens: The new narrow mindedness is from the leftist’s perspective to turn reality inside out; it is intellectual bigotry because they use a perceived point of view as inclusive but disagrees, is intolerant with anyone who disagrees with them.

Richard Abbot
Richard Abbot
1 year ago

Raw power is the only thing that counts now. Who has it, who can seize it and how serious are they about using it? I hope this is remembered when the wheel turns, as it inevitably will.

Richard Abbot
Richard Abbot
1 year ago

Raw power is the only thing that counts now. Who has it, who can seize it and how serious are they about using it? I hope this is remembered when the wheel turns, as it inevitably will.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago

If you go to events like the LGB Alliance conferences and mingle with the protesters you will see many familiar faces from the anti-Huntington Life Sciences protests etc around Cambridge, and Stalinist remnant hanger-on groups in London. Most are older, white, and certainly not trans. One used to be an extremist Muslim of some kind but I think they booted him out – he was lampooned in the ‘Four Lions’ film as Barry.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Dumetrius

Nice and significant observation, I do remember the very hard core animal rights activists as being early promoters of the “They are so unkind we must kill them” style. That ever present loose-knit clique of the violently dissatisfied.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Dumetrius

Nice and significant observation, I do remember the very hard core animal rights activists as being early promoters of the “They are so unkind we must kill them” style. That ever present loose-knit clique of the violently dissatisfied.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago

If you go to events like the LGB Alliance conferences and mingle with the protesters you will see many familiar faces from the anti-Huntington Life Sciences protests etc around Cambridge, and Stalinist remnant hanger-on groups in London. Most are older, white, and certainly not trans. One used to be an extremist Muslim of some kind but I think they booted him out – he was lampooned in the ‘Four Lions’ film as Barry.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago

NT

Melanie Mabey
Melanie Mabey
1 year ago

Society has become a toxic sludge before it takes history’s Exit ramp – it’s sad to see.The modern era began with a Puritanical cult seizing the levers of power followed by a civil war and it looks like it’s ending with the same dynamics.
 p.s. Dr Dutton has done a good video on howling mob dynamics Why Are Antifa Mutants Calling Ordinary Oxford Residents ‘Fascists’?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTFXTf5pflM

Last edited 1 year ago by Melanie Mabey
Jonny Stud
Jonny Stud
1 year ago

 I can’t think of another single-issue campaigner so effective at popular communication

I’ve never heard of her until reading this article, I fear you give her too much credit.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonny Stud

You disgusting creep.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

?

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

?

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonny Stud

You disgusting creep.

Jonny Stud
Jonny Stud
1 year ago

 I can’t think of another single-issue campaigner so effective at popular communication

I’ve never heard of her until reading this article, I fear you give her too much credit.

Betsy Warrior
Betsy Warrior
1 year ago

Over complicated? Harrington sounds too much like Judith Butler. I think Richard Dawkins would call her out.

Betsy Warrior
Betsy Warrior
1 year ago

Over complicated? Harrington sounds too much like Judith Butler. I think Richard Dawkins would call her out.