Great interview. Lionel covers much familiar ground but I particularly appreciated her point that DEI is now a source of well-paid corporate jobs for otherwise unemployable people. Those folks will ride the DEI gravy train for as long as possible.
My own opinion, for what it’s worth, is we have not reached peak woke, or if we have reached peak woke it will plateau and hold steady for years. I see little meaningful pushback. As mentioned by one of the audience members, Konstantin Kisin convincingly won a debate at the Oxford Union recently by arguing against woke ideology. Well done, but what has changed in the real world? Too many young people now believe this stuff and our only hope seems to be that they grow out of it.
I would enjoy more questions from the audience. Those are often fun and can lead to enlightening exchanges.
The interviewer did a good job. Apparently she is book editor at Unherd. I would be interested to know what that job entails at an organization like Unherd.
“Too many young people now believe this stuff and our only hope seems to be that they grow out of it.”
Indeed, but I think that they will grow out of it pretty fast. I had some weird ideas in my head as a youngster, but even then I knew that I was indulging myself. Go Woke Go Broke is a powerful antiseptic, as Netflix has already discovered, and publishing houses that publish second rate rate books will soon discover. Money doesn’t speak softly.
Most of the ‘drug addled’ Hippies of the sixties “grew out of it”. Very few opted for Darwinian Self Selection, or post natal abortion as we know call it; So agreed, there is hope!
Oh Charles, really ,what a nasty, untrue generalization. You’ve self-confessed that you missed out on the hippie fun, so how would you know how we evolved. You can’t judge a book by it’s cover, so we maybe still amongst you with love in our hearts.
Oh Charles, really ,what a nasty, untrue generalization. You’ve self-confessed that you missed out on the hippie fun, so how would you know how we evolved. You can’t judge a book by it’s cover, so we maybe still amongst you with love in our hearts.
Most of the ‘drug addled’ Hippies of the sixties “grew out of it”. Very few opted for Darwinian Self Selection, or post natal abortion as we know call it; So agreed, there is hope!
J, My guess is within 8 years the woke are going to be bitten by reality, a bite which they will not believe the ferocity of…. One like a Russian Peasant got from a wolf….
ChatGPT is going to take almost every woke person’s job. I’ll still be out there with the meth head carpenters and roofers pounding nails on the construction site – but these blue haired, nose ring people? Their jobs are toast.
It is over. The steam train and factory steam engine ended slavery. Manpower was not worth the cost of keeping, that Industrializing did away with 10,000 years where all was done by animal and human physical labour.
The gas tractor, truck, and car flipped that statistic which always ruled – 80% – 90% farm and work the ag communities – 10% are all it took with tractors – it happened with lightening speed. The country person was obsolete as the slave had become 70 years before.
And so the factory worker – by the 1970s they were pretty well done in the West, they had their 70 years.
And so what ever weird thing it is the woke do, and they gained traction in the 60s, so 60 years now – and Chat GPT has now taken their whole point, and their way to make a living (what ever it was, I never could figure out what they did).
And so they will have to move on….find something else to do – likely it will mostly involve doing nothing in Basic Income Abject Poverty; with the fast coming Great Depression. I mean – they never seemed to me to do anything useful anyway, basically were ‘Consumers’ paid to do stuff so they could consume to keep the economy going – on Government borrowed $Trillions – but now ChatGPT can do it for them…
Unfortunately, a little experimentation with ChatGPT will show you that it is just as enthusiastic about promoting woke ideology as the bluehairs themselves.
No Clare, he won’t ever be obsolete. There is a level of blue-collar work which will never be replaced. Like care work. AI will never change nappies, clean toilets, lay bricks or unblock sewers.
Somehow I don’t feel that caregiving would be a fit for Elliott, as for your other examples I’m not so sure about that kind of work not being replaceable.
Somehow I don’t feel that caregiving would be a fit for Elliott, as for your other examples I’m not so sure about that kind of work not being replaceable.
No Clare, he won’t ever be obsolete. There is a level of blue-collar work which will never be replaced. Like care work. AI will never change nappies, clean toilets, lay bricks or unblock sewers.
That’s very silly, Elliot. Do you really think you can spot a “woke”person just by looking at them? Since you don’t know what they do for for a living how do know they’re not your doctor, mail carrier or dentist? Your stereotyping is way off.
If they are broad shouldered, deep chested, have a weather beaten face and have large strong fingers, they undertake, manual work out of doors, play rugby and /or been in elite military units, there is a low probability of them being woke.
Coal mines, steel works, heavy industry and trawling produced great rugby players , the tech companies of California do not.
Speaking to someone who worked in AI it is far from clear what jobs will disappear. Those requiring very high levels of manual dexterity, especially out of doors and with low levels of repetition may be safe. What needs to be asked is what percentage of those working in some parts of organisations such as Human Resources and for the government, are actually vital to the continuation of civilisation?
How much of Wokeness is about middle class people lacking the ability to compete in physically demanding meritocratic environments where there is a clear delineation of success and failure. The hockey playing woman engineer working on construction sites or with animals lives in a physical world not one of ideas and where carlessness can cause injury or even death.
If they are broad shouldered, deep chested, have a weather beaten face and have large strong fingers, they undertake, manual work out of doors, play rugby and /or been in elite military units, there is a low probability of them being woke.
Coal mines, steel works, heavy industry and trawling produced great rugby players , the tech companies of California do not.
Speaking to someone who worked in AI it is far from clear what jobs will disappear. Those requiring very high levels of manual dexterity, especially out of doors and with low levels of repetition may be safe. What needs to be asked is what percentage of those working in some parts of organisations such as Human Resources and for the government, are actually vital to the continuation of civilisation?
How much of Wokeness is about middle class people lacking the ability to compete in physically demanding meritocratic environments where there is a clear delineation of success and failure. The hockey playing woman engineer working on construction sites or with animals lives in a physical world not one of ideas and where carlessness can cause injury or even death.
Unfortunately, a little experimentation with ChatGPT will show you that it is just as enthusiastic about promoting woke ideology as the bluehairs themselves.
That’s very silly, Elliot. Do you really think you can spot a “woke”person just by looking at them? Since you don’t know what they do for for a living how do know they’re not your doctor, mail carrier or dentist? Your stereotyping is way off.
The pushback of the woke will occur in shunning. A number of people have told me they won’t hire people who state their pronouns on resumes and correspondence. It indicates ‘warped’ orientation and potential trouble.
I’ve noticed that trans people seem to be employed in customer service jobe where they’re not visible, but a keen ear can tell that we don’t know who we’re talking to.
I’ve noticed that trans people seem to be employed in customer service jobe where they’re not visible, but a keen ear can tell that we don’t know who we’re talking to.
“Too many young people now believe this stuff and our only hope seems to be that they grow out of it.”
Indeed, but I think that they will grow out of it pretty fast. I had some weird ideas in my head as a youngster, but even then I knew that I was indulging myself. Go Woke Go Broke is a powerful antiseptic, as Netflix has already discovered, and publishing houses that publish second rate rate books will soon discover. Money doesn’t speak softly.
J, My guess is within 8 years the woke are going to be bitten by reality, a bite which they will not believe the ferocity of…. One like a Russian Peasant got from a wolf….
ChatGPT is going to take almost every woke person’s job. I’ll still be out there with the meth head carpenters and roofers pounding nails on the construction site – but these blue haired, nose ring people? Their jobs are toast.
It is over. The steam train and factory steam engine ended slavery. Manpower was not worth the cost of keeping, that Industrializing did away with 10,000 years where all was done by animal and human physical labour.
The gas tractor, truck, and car flipped that statistic which always ruled – 80% – 90% farm and work the ag communities – 10% are all it took with tractors – it happened with lightening speed. The country person was obsolete as the slave had become 70 years before.
And so the factory worker – by the 1970s they were pretty well done in the West, they had their 70 years.
And so what ever weird thing it is the woke do, and they gained traction in the 60s, so 60 years now – and Chat GPT has now taken their whole point, and their way to make a living (what ever it was, I never could figure out what they did).
And so they will have to move on….find something else to do – likely it will mostly involve doing nothing in Basic Income Abject Poverty; with the fast coming Great Depression. I mean – they never seemed to me to do anything useful anyway, basically were ‘Consumers’ paid to do stuff so they could consume to keep the economy going – on Government borrowed $Trillions – but now ChatGPT can do it for them…
The pushback of the woke will occur in shunning. A number of people have told me they won’t hire people who state their pronouns on resumes and correspondence. It indicates ‘warped’ orientation and potential trouble.
Last edited 1 year ago by Cathy Carron
J Bryant
1 year ago
Great interview. Lionel covers much familiar ground but I particularly appreciated her point that DEI is now a source of well-paid corporate jobs for otherwise unemployable people. Those folks will ride the DEI gravy train for as long as possible.
My own opinion, for what it’s worth, is we have not reached peak woke, or if we have reached peak woke it will plateau and hold steady for years. I see little meaningful pushback. As mentioned by one of the audience members, Konstantin Kisin convincingly won a debate at the Oxford Union recently by arguing against woke ideology. Well done, but what has changed in the real world? Too many young people now believe this stuff and our only hope seems to be that they grow out of it.
I would enjoy more questions from the audience. Those are often fun and can lead to enlightening exchanges.
The interviewer did a good job. Apparently she is book editor at Unherd. I would be interested to know what that job entails at an organization like Unherd.
Last edited 1 year ago by J Bryant
R Wright
1 year ago
“At places like UnHerd, we may feel we’re winning the argument because the essays are so good but that doesn’t mean that they’re teaching UnHerd essays in university, as they should do. I’m afraid that none of the people who need to be persuaded are reading this stuff. It’s a very atomised media situation.”
A superb interview with an intelligent lady.
R Wright
1 year ago
“At places like UnHerd, we may feel we’re winning the argument because the essays are so good but that doesn’t mean that they’re teaching UnHerd essays in university, as they should do. I’m afraid that none of the people who need to be persuaded are reading this stuff. It’s a very atomised media situation.”
A superb interview with an intelligent lady.
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago
I notice Lionel describes herself as a professional American and professional white person. When will publishers employ such people to sensitively read the work of “minority” authors (or is the woke term now global or sexual majority?) I would like as an elderly white male to apply to be a sensitive reader representing this minority class. I would have a field day pointing out all the offensive passages in Julie Bindel’s articles if Unherd cares to adopt such an approach. I could then go on to greater things harassing authors worldwide for representing my minority in stereotypical form. It would certainly be a pity if One Foot in the Grave had to no longer be released as misrepresenting the elderly. A terrible slur to suggest we are all grumpy gits even if quite a few of us are.
I can see how passing your non-fiction book to an expert before publication may help to improve it. He or she can offer knowledge and advice for re-writes and depth of situation and circumstances that your own research may not necessarily uncover.
However, to pass your book to a professional grievance-finder is a whole ‘nother matter.
Orwell had to switch publisher for ‘Homage to Catalonia’. Gollancz was for censoring uncomfortable truths for a left wing audience.
Forms of political censorship thus always existed in liberal economies but fortunately we have a competitive publishing industry so somehow an outlet will be found, much as Orwell did eventually himself. UnHerd itself of course helps this crucial pluralism.
The concept of a “sensitive” reader seems misapplied if it reduces the author to tears as related by Lionel Schriver. A little more sensitivity to authors might be in order.
What about all of those sensitive book buyers outraged by having their versions of Roald Dahl bowdlerised. Perhaps there is room for multiple versions of books to be published to cater for differing intersectional tastes. Apartheid for readers. Separate but equal.
I seem to think I heard that the publishers of Roald Dahl were coming out with two different versions of the same books. The original and the desensitized -new and improved!
I seem to think I heard that the publishers of Roald Dahl were coming out with two different versions of the same books. The original and the desensitized -new and improved!
Orwell had to switch publisher for ‘Homage to Catalonia’. Gollancz was for censoring uncomfortable truths for a left wing audience.
Forms of political censorship thus always existed in liberal economies but fortunately we have a competitive publishing industry so somehow an outlet will be found, much as Orwell did eventually himself. UnHerd itself of course helps this crucial pluralism.
The concept of a “sensitive” reader seems misapplied if it reduces the author to tears as related by Lionel Schriver. A little more sensitivity to authors might be in order.
What about all of those sensitive book buyers outraged by having their versions of Roald Dahl bowdlerised. Perhaps there is room for multiple versions of books to be published to cater for differing intersectional tastes. Apartheid for readers. Separate but equal.
I can see how passing your non-fiction book to an expert before publication may help to improve it. He or she can offer knowledge and advice for re-writes and depth of situation and circumstances that your own research may not necessarily uncover.
However, to pass your book to a professional grievance-finder is a whole ‘nother matter.
Are old white males a minority? Where do you live?
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago
I notice Lionel describes herself as a professional American and professional white person. When will publishers employ such people to sensitively read the work of “minority” authors (or is the woke term now global or sexual majority?) I would like as an elderly white male to apply to be a sensitive reader representing this minority class. I would have a field day pointing out all the offensive passages in Julie Bindel’s articles if Unherd cares to adopt such an approach. I could then go on to greater things harassing authors worldwide for representing my minority in stereotypical form. It would certainly be a pity if One Foot in the Grave had to no longer be released as misrepresenting the elderly. A terrible slur to suggest we are all grumpy gits even if quite a few of us are.
Perhaps she was Predestined for just such a day . . . ? 😉
Mashie Niblick
1 year ago
Praise the Lord for Lionel Shriver!
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago
The idea that fiction is required to be authentic is just bizarre. Of course, there are genres where the reader revels in authentic details – the Jack Reacher series and Bravo Two Zero etc – but then, at the opposite end of the spectrum is Alice Through The Looking Glass. Fiction is fictional, for heaven’s sake.
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago
The idea that fiction is required to be authentic is just bizarre. Of course, there are genres where the reader revels in authentic details – the Jack Reacher series and Bravo Two Zero etc – but then, at the opposite end of the spectrum is Alice Through The Looking Glass. Fiction is fictional, for heaven’s sake.
Alan Tonkyn
1 year ago
This interview reminded me of why I love Lionel Shriver! So much sane, good sense, expressed with such forceful plain-spoken clarity. She has identified so many things, not least in relation to NewSpeak-type language perversions and the corruption of education and literature, against which we need to be vocal and vigorous in our resistance. Let’s follow where she leads!
Alan Tonkyn
1 year ago
This interview reminded me of why I love Lionel Shriver! So much sane, good sense, expressed with such forceful plain-spoken clarity. She has identified so many things, not least in relation to NewSpeak-type language perversions and the corruption of education and literature, against which we need to be vocal and vigorous in our resistance. Let’s follow where she leads!
Tom Lewis
1 year ago
Talk about preconceptions. Not withstanding that ‘Lionel Shriver’ might be a nom de plume, but, not only did I take her, in my minds eye, for being a hairy arsed bloke, but a Jewish one at that. More fool me ! 😀
Yes a clear piece of cultural appropriation. You expect an agonised Franz Kafka writer and get a feisty lapsed Protestant woman. It subverts our cherished stereotypes.
Yes a clear piece of cultural appropriation. You expect an agonised Franz Kafka writer and get a feisty lapsed Protestant woman. It subverts our cherished stereotypes.
Talk about preconceptions. Not withstanding that ‘Lionel Shriver’ might be a nom de plume, but, not only did I take her, in my minds eye, for being a hairy arsed bloke, but a Jewish one at that. More fool me ! 😀
Last edited 1 year ago by Tom Lewis
Warren Trees
1 year ago
I eagerly await the product of this line of editing with riveting sentences such as these……”After catching one another in several longing and seductive glances during the cocktail hour, person A walked up to person B, took hold of one of their upper appendages and placed their pursed mouth on the side of the membrane that covered their skull.”
You will unfortunately have to eliminate the words ‘longing’ and ‘seductive’ in that sentence….
Warren Trees
1 year ago
I eagerly await the product of this line of editing with riveting sentences such as these……”After catching one another in several longing and seductive glances during the cocktail hour, person A walked up to person B, took hold of one of their upper appendages and placed their pursed mouth on the side of the membrane that covered their skull.”
Michael Cavanaugh
1 year ago
“The problem is not only young people. And I have to say, I feel a kind of funny mea culpa in relation to my own youth. I grew up at the tail end of the so-called Sixties, which in truth lasted well into the Seventies. And this is where a lot of this stuff was born — and by the way, as a kid, I bought into it hook line and sinker. I would still oppose the Vietnam War, if I could go back, and I still recycle. But this whole obsession with self-criticism, which has an almost communist touch and feel, started back then . . . The Boomer generation brought this stuff to life. And those are the people who took over the universities.”
Spot on. The Long March through the Institutions — Mao, via Gramsci — has worked. Spectacularly.
Which is why: “a lot of the parents believe the same stuff. And so the kids are not entirely against the parents. What dismays me about younger people these days is: they don’t rebel. This is what they’re being told. This is what a lot of their parents believe. It’s not rebellion, it’s anything but: it’s conformity, total conformity.” (There is a Nancy cartoon in which she confronts an aging hippie wearing a “Question Authority” t-shirt, and asks him: “says who?” This is exactly what is NOT happening.)
“Question Authority:” the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.
Apparently young men are very much less ‘wike’ than girls ..
Michael Cavanaugh
1 year ago
“The problem is not only young people. And I have to say, I feel a kind of funny mea culpa in relation to my own youth. I grew up at the tail end of the so-called Sixties, which in truth lasted well into the Seventies. And this is where a lot of this stuff was born — and by the way, as a kid, I bought into it hook line and sinker. I would still oppose the Vietnam War, if I could go back, and I still recycle. But this whole obsession with self-criticism, which has an almost communist touch and feel, started back then . . . The Boomer generation brought this stuff to life. And those are the people who took over the universities.”
Spot on. The Long March through the Institutions — Mao, via Gramsci — has worked. Spectacularly.
Which is why: “a lot of the parents believe the same stuff. And so the kids are not entirely against the parents. What dismays me about younger people these days is: they don’t rebel. This is what they’re being told. This is what a lot of their parents believe. It’s not rebellion, it’s anything but: it’s conformity, total conformity.” (There is a Nancy cartoon in which she confronts an aging hippie wearing a “Question Authority” t-shirt, and asks him: “says who?” This is exactly what is NOT happening.)
“Question Authority:” the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.
Allez Lionel! Keep preaching to this choir . . .
j watson
1 year ago
Really enjoyed that Article. Lots of good common sense.
Nonetheless still think the term Woke is used lazily and almost meaninglessly by way too many. Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you. You ask someone that question they get tongue tied, confused and largely incoherent. Then angry, usually.
Importantly we need to be careful Woke isn’t used as a camouflage for bigotry and call that out when we plainly see it. Furthermore lazy use of the ‘elite’ memes – basically warped into meaning anyone with an education rather than the real billionaires and oligarchs, is just plan silly and self defeating. Yes we probably do need a rebalance on numbers going to Uni, but let’s not get into some Jacobin/Leninist purge mentality rubbish. It’s an approach with a long history that Wokers are not the first to promulgate Similarly not all teaching about slavery is CRT either and some rebalancing of our historical landscape not unneeded.
So v much welcome the skewering of proper Woke twaddle by likes of Shriver, but that doesn’t mean all the Anti-Wokers are immune from corresponding utter twaddle too.
“Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you. ”
Woke is the new ideology of the rent-seeking class. It exists to deflect attention from the most brutal class war since the 1890s.
One reason ‘woke’ obtains is because of the absence of an alternative. Like pornography, you may not be able to define ‘woke’, but you know it when you see it.
“Nonetheless still think the term Woke is used lazily and almost meaninglessly by way too many. Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you.”
I most certainly can:-
The authoritarian pseudo-progressive usurpation of liberalism.
Methodological Woke is at least as old as Plato’s cave. Substantive Woke (genuflecting with Kaepernick, homage to St George Floyd) is an orthodoxy — something entirely different.
I’m hoping it’s possible to take the middle ground where I think a lot us reside. Have compassion, but refuse to be guilt tripped into something that doesn’t feel right.
Aren’t you having it both ways? Demanding people define ‘woke’ but then using the term and not doing so yourself. Susan Neiman the leftwing philosopher, declines to do so anyway:
I would say, people motivated by trying to help this or that identity group, but being completely intolerant of any dissenting views in doing so, conflicting claims or science, and loathing of their inherited culture with no sense of proportion or comparison with other societies.
You are posing as so many do a completely false equivalence – what bigotry are you talking about? Racism for example has hugely declined; we can measure social attitudes. Children have been taught about slavery for decades.
University education in the West, especially but not only in the humanities is overwhelmingly dominated by the Left. has become largely an intolerant intellectual monoculture among staff and students. The Jacobins are amongst that group and no-one else, like many would argue their Bolshevik forebears. So please no false equivalence or distortion on what is going on.
Been quite a range of definitions haven’t there as evident from above.
I think your 2nd para one of the better one’s, but in reality that then is a much narrower definition and you may find it difficult to pin that clearly on all your intended targets. You also assume you can define, and possibly position yourself as a custodian for, ‘inherited culture’. That’s heck of an assumption. We could get into how you define inherited culture but that’s a debate for another time perhaps.
Just on one other theme – I believe racism has declined, but certainly not disappeared. So cause to celebrate (which some Wokers possibly wouldn’t?) but not to be complacent either. As regards one example – children being taught about slavery – yes to a degree but much removed before hand too. For example we were taught much about Wilberforce in the UK – the great white campaigner. We weren’t taught about the compensation paid to slave-owners or things like the Demerara Uprising. Now it’s of intrigue why were some bits back in my schooldays in the curriculum and some not? It’s no bad thing we are now having additional layers of our history explained and shared. And it’s no bad thing to ask the question – why did we exclude some elements.
I think you lack a bit of confidence in the rebalancing, whereas I generally don’t and in fact I see it as a strength of the society we live in. I think the more daft bits of what seems to be defined as Woke will have a limited shelf-life, and the bits that have good sense will stick with future generations seeing to that.
Been quite a range of definitions haven’t there as evident from above.
I think your 2nd para one of the better one’s, but in reality that then is a much narrower definition and you may find it difficult to pin that clearly on all your intended targets. You also assume you can define, and possibly position yourself as a custodian for, ‘inherited culture’. That’s heck of an assumption. We could get into how you define inherited culture but that’s a debate for another time perhaps.
Just on one other theme – I believe racism has declined, but certainly not disappeared. So cause to celebrate (which some Wokers possibly wouldn’t?) but not to be complacent either. As regards one example – children being taught about slavery – yes to a degree but much removed before hand too. For example we were taught much about Wilberforce in the UK – the great white campaigner. We weren’t taught about the compensation paid to slave-owners or things like the Demerara Uprising. Now it’s of intrigue why were some bits back in my schooldays in the curriculum and some not? It’s no bad thing we are now having additional layers of our history explained and shared. And it’s no bad thing to ask the question – why did we exclude some elements.
I think you lack a bit of confidence in the rebalancing, whereas I generally don’t and in fact I see it as a strength of the society we live in. I think the more daft bits of what seems to be defined as Woke will have a limited shelf-life, and the bits that have good sense will stick with future generations seeing to that.
“Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you. ”
Woke is the new ideology of the rent-seeking class. It exists to deflect attention from the most brutal class war since the 1890s.
One reason ‘woke’ obtains is because of the absence of an alternative. Like pornography, you may not be able to define ‘woke’, but you know it when you see it.
“Nonetheless still think the term Woke is used lazily and almost meaninglessly by way too many. Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you.”
I most certainly can:-
The authoritarian pseudo-progressive usurpation of liberalism.
Methodological Woke is at least as old as Plato’s cave. Substantive Woke (genuflecting with Kaepernick, homage to St George Floyd) is an orthodoxy — something entirely different.
I’m hoping it’s possible to take the middle ground where I think a lot us reside. Have compassion, but refuse to be guilt tripped into something that doesn’t feel right.
Aren’t you having it both ways? Demanding people define ‘woke’ but then using the term and not doing so yourself. Susan Neiman the leftwing philosopher, declines to do so anyway:
I would say, people motivated by trying to help this or that identity group, but being completely intolerant of any dissenting views in doing so, conflicting claims or science, and loathing of their inherited culture with no sense of proportion or comparison with other societies.
You are posing as so many do a completely false equivalence – what bigotry are you talking about? Racism for example has hugely declined; we can measure social attitudes. Children have been taught about slavery for decades.
University education in the West, especially but not only in the humanities is overwhelmingly dominated by the Left. has become largely an intolerant intellectual monoculture among staff and students. The Jacobins are amongst that group and no-one else, like many would argue their Bolshevik forebears. So please no false equivalence or distortion on what is going on.
“Define it in one sentence?” Woke = having critical consciousness
j watson
1 year ago
Really enjoyed that Article. Lots of good common sense.
Nonetheless still think the term Woke is used lazily and almost meaninglessly by way too many. Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you. You ask someone that question they get tongue tied, confused and largely incoherent. Then angry, usually.
Importantly we need to be careful Woke isn’t used as a camouflage for bigotry and call that out when we plainly see it. Furthermore lazy use of the ‘elite’ memes – basically warped into meaning anyone with an education rather than the real billionaires and oligarchs, is just plan silly and self defeating. Yes we probably do need a rebalance on numbers going to Uni, but let’s not get into some Jacobin/Leninist purge mentality rubbish. It’s an approach with a long history that Wokers are not the first to promulgate Similarly not all teaching about slavery is CRT either and some rebalancing of our historical landscape not unneeded.
So v much welcome the skewering of proper Woke twaddle by likes of Shriver, but that doesn’t mean all the Anti-Wokers are immune from corresponding utter twaddle too.
Steve Murray
1 year ago
What Lionel Shriver describes within the world of publishing in such refreshingly forthright fashion applies just as much – indeed, possibly more so – to the art world.
I suspect this is due to the reputation that the visual arts have for being able to be offensive, and association with the avante guard, more so than the literary world. There’s nothing quite as ‘shocking’ as being confronted with a piece of genuinely transgressive (of norms) art, whereas reading a book has a more time-dependent element of absorption.
Great discussion, and i can identify with many of the formative mental leaps that she describes. I believe this is something inherent in the human condition. However, the 1960/70s generation which perhaps became the most iconoclastic in history left little space for the generations which have followed. The former think they’re still being hip by ceding the cultural prerogative (as LS describes happening within publishing houses) to the younger generation, without realising that it gives them nothing to rebel against. But in time, they will find a way.
Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
What Lionel Shriver describes within the world of publishing in such refreshingly forthright fashion applies just as much – indeed, possibly more so – to the art world.
I suspect this is due to the reputation that the visual arts have for being able to be offensive, and association with the avante guard, more so than the literary world. There’s nothing quite as ‘shocking’ as being confronted with a piece of genuinely transgressive (of norms) art, whereas reading a book has a more time-dependent element of absorption.
Great discussion, and i can identify with many of the formative mental leaps that she describes. I believe this is something inherent in the human condition. However, the 1960/70s generation which perhaps became the most iconoclastic in history left little space for the generations which have followed. The former think they’re still being hip by ceding the cultural prerogative (as LS describes happening within publishing houses) to the younger generation, without realising that it gives them nothing to rebel against. But in time, they will find a way.
Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
James Kirk
1 year ago
Woke. Not allowed to say what you think, describe what you don’t like. Contempt of Court, no matter how wrong the Court may be. 1984.
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Is this really the sort of stuff women write and think about? It is unreadable, it is like some Sisyphean ordeal where you get through the rambling answer, and with a bit of hope look to the next question….
And it is the same question thing all over again, and so is the long answer – and and then another nothing question, and them more of nothing answered – but said long and slow, and then…..and then……To survive it I had to skip 90%, but kept looking for the wheat in the chaff…I guess you had to be a woman to find it.
Anyone who thinks Men and Women are the same – read that ordeal above, and ask yourself – could this Ever have been written by a Man?
Being pretty much an Alpha Male, kind of patriarchy and macho, this article calls out that the Men are from Mars; Women from Venus…they are….. it is proven now…..
“ I had to skip 90%, but kept looking for the wheat in the chaff”
Not much point skipping 90% if you are actually looking for the wheat in the chaff. There is often a bit of wheat in the chaff you offer up in your comments but it would certainly be missed if the reader didn’t read 90%.
I hope you weren’t thrown by the author’s masculine first name and was expecting the ruminations of a bloke.
” Is this really the sort of stuff women write and think about?”
Or maybe this is the best response one could expect from a pompous male who offers such a pathetic comment after reading 10% of the article.
I despair.
I’m guessing you didn’t read the interview at all, because nobody who can read could possibly come up with such a ridiculous and twisted interpretation of a very fine, interesting and eminently readable interview.
I know you don’t always seem to be too aware of what is going on, context or anything much, but this was a transcription of a talk at UnHerd! With a Q and A at the end. The transcribed language seemed clear as a bell to me, unlike I have to say, some of your own ungrammatical ramblings.
Thank you also so much for again apprising us of your dominant status; I’m sure we are pleased to hear this.
“ I had to skip 90%, but kept looking for the wheat in the chaff”
Not much point skipping 90% if you are actually looking for the wheat in the chaff. There is often a bit of wheat in the chaff you offer up in your comments but it would certainly be missed if the reader didn’t read 90%.
I hope you weren’t thrown by the author’s masculine first name and was expecting the ruminations of a bloke.
” Is this really the sort of stuff women write and think about?”
Or maybe this is the best response one could expect from a pompous male who offers such a pathetic comment after reading 10% of the article.
I despair.
I’m guessing you didn’t read the interview at all, because nobody who can read could possibly come up with such a ridiculous and twisted interpretation of a very fine, interesting and eminently readable interview.
I know you don’t always seem to be too aware of what is going on, context or anything much, but this was a transcription of a talk at UnHerd! With a Q and A at the end. The transcribed language seemed clear as a bell to me, unlike I have to say, some of your own ungrammatical ramblings.
Thank you also so much for again apprising us of your dominant status; I’m sure we are pleased to hear this.
Is this really the sort of stuff women write and think about? It is unreadable, it is like some Sisyphean ordeal where you get through the rambling answer, and with a bit of hope look to the next question….
And it is the same question thing all over again, and so is the long answer – and and then another nothing question, and them more of nothing answered – but said long and slow, and then…..and then……To survive it I had to skip 90%, but kept looking for the wheat in the chaff…I guess you had to be a woman to find it.
Anyone who thinks Men and Women are the same – read that ordeal above, and ask yourself – could this Ever have been written by a Man?
Being pretty much an Alpha Male, kind of patriarchy and macho, this article calls out that the Men are from Mars; Women from Venus…they are….. it is proven now…..
Great interview. Lionel covers much familiar ground but I particularly appreciated her point that DEI is now a source of well-paid corporate jobs for otherwise unemployable people. Those folks will ride the DEI gravy train for as long as possible.
My own opinion, for what it’s worth, is we have not reached peak woke, or if we have reached peak woke it will plateau and hold steady for years. I see little meaningful pushback. As mentioned by one of the audience members, Konstantin Kisin convincingly won a debate at the Oxford Union recently by arguing against woke ideology. Well done, but what has changed in the real world? Too many young people now believe this stuff and our only hope seems to be that they grow out of it.
I would enjoy more questions from the audience. Those are often fun and can lead to enlightening exchanges.
The interviewer did a good job. Apparently she is book editor at Unherd. I would be interested to know what that job entails at an organization like Unherd.
“Too many young people now believe this stuff and our only hope seems to be that they grow out of it.”
Indeed, but I think that they will grow out of it pretty fast. I had some weird ideas in my head as a youngster, but even then I knew that I was indulging myself. Go Woke Go Broke is a powerful antiseptic, as Netflix has already discovered, and publishing houses that publish second rate rate books will soon discover. Money doesn’t speak softly.
Most of the ‘drug addled’ Hippies of the sixties “grew out of it”. Very few opted for Darwinian Self Selection, or post natal abortion as we know call it; So agreed, there is hope!
Oh Charles, really ,what a nasty, untrue generalization. You’ve self-confessed that you missed out on the hippie fun, so how would you know how we evolved. You can’t judge a book by it’s cover, so we maybe still amongst you with love in our hearts.
Oh Charles, really ,what a nasty, untrue generalization. You’ve self-confessed that you missed out on the hippie fun, so how would you know how we evolved. You can’t judge a book by it’s cover, so we maybe still amongst you with love in our hearts.
Most of the ‘drug addled’ Hippies of the sixties “grew out of it”. Very few opted for Darwinian Self Selection, or post natal abortion as we know call it; So agreed, there is hope!
J, My guess is within 8 years the woke are going to be bitten by reality, a bite which they will not believe the ferocity of…. One like a Russian Peasant got from a wolf….
ChatGPT is going to take almost every woke person’s job. I’ll still be out there with the meth head carpenters and roofers pounding nails on the construction site – but these blue haired, nose ring people? Their jobs are toast.
It is over. The steam train and factory steam engine ended slavery. Manpower was not worth the cost of keeping, that Industrializing did away with 10,000 years where all was done by animal and human physical labour.
The gas tractor, truck, and car flipped that statistic which always ruled – 80% – 90% farm and work the ag communities – 10% are all it took with tractors – it happened with lightening speed. The country person was obsolete as the slave had become 70 years before.
And so the factory worker – by the 1970s they were pretty well done in the West, they had their 70 years.
And so what ever weird thing it is the woke do, and they gained traction in the 60s, so 60 years now – and Chat GPT has now taken their whole point, and their way to make a living (what ever it was, I never could figure out what they did).
And so they will have to move on….find something else to do – likely it will mostly involve doing nothing in Basic Income Abject Poverty; with the fast coming Great Depression. I mean – they never seemed to me to do anything useful anyway, basically were ‘Consumers’ paid to do stuff so they could consume to keep the economy going – on Government borrowed $Trillions – but now ChatGPT can do it for them…
Unfortunately, a little experimentation with ChatGPT will show you that it is just as enthusiastic about promoting woke ideology as the bluehairs themselves.
Yes, I noticed this too. Their emails are now diverted to my spam folder.
Garbage in, garbage out!
Yes, I noticed this too. Their emails are now diverted to my spam folder.
Garbage in, garbage out!
And for you too, Elliot. AI isn’t selective it’s coming to get you as well. You will also be obsolete.
No Clare, he won’t ever be obsolete. There is a level of blue-collar work which will never be replaced. Like care work. AI will never change nappies, clean toilets, lay bricks or unblock sewers.
Somehow I don’t feel that caregiving would be a fit for Elliott, as for your other examples I’m not so sure about that kind of work not being replaceable.
Somehow I don’t feel that caregiving would be a fit for Elliott, as for your other examples I’m not so sure about that kind of work not being replaceable.
No Clare, he won’t ever be obsolete. There is a level of blue-collar work which will never be replaced. Like care work. AI will never change nappies, clean toilets, lay bricks or unblock sewers.
That’s very silly, Elliot. Do you really think you can spot a “woke”person just by looking at them? Since you don’t know what they do for for a living how do know they’re not your doctor, mail carrier or dentist? Your stereotyping is way off.
If they are broad shouldered, deep chested, have a weather beaten face and have large strong fingers, they undertake, manual work out of doors, play rugby and /or been in elite military units, there is a low probability of them being woke.
Coal mines, steel works, heavy industry and trawling produced great rugby players , the tech companies of California do not.
Speaking to someone who worked in AI it is far from clear what jobs will disappear. Those requiring very high levels of manual dexterity, especially out of doors and with low levels of repetition may be safe. What needs to be asked is what percentage of those working in some parts of organisations such as Human Resources and for the government, are actually vital to the continuation of civilisation?
How much of Wokeness is about middle class people lacking the ability to compete in physically demanding meritocratic environments where there is a clear delineation of success and failure. The hockey playing woman engineer working on construction sites or with animals lives in a physical world not one of ideas and where carlessness can cause injury or even death.
If they are broad shouldered, deep chested, have a weather beaten face and have large strong fingers, they undertake, manual work out of doors, play rugby and /or been in elite military units, there is a low probability of them being woke.
Coal mines, steel works, heavy industry and trawling produced great rugby players , the tech companies of California do not.
Speaking to someone who worked in AI it is far from clear what jobs will disappear. Those requiring very high levels of manual dexterity, especially out of doors and with low levels of repetition may be safe. What needs to be asked is what percentage of those working in some parts of organisations such as Human Resources and for the government, are actually vital to the continuation of civilisation?
How much of Wokeness is about middle class people lacking the ability to compete in physically demanding meritocratic environments where there is a clear delineation of success and failure. The hockey playing woman engineer working on construction sites or with animals lives in a physical world not one of ideas and where carlessness can cause injury or even death.
Unfortunately, a little experimentation with ChatGPT will show you that it is just as enthusiastic about promoting woke ideology as the bluehairs themselves.
And for you too, Elliot. AI isn’t selective it’s coming to get you as well. You will also be obsolete.
That’s very silly, Elliot. Do you really think you can spot a “woke”person just by looking at them? Since you don’t know what they do for for a living how do know they’re not your doctor, mail carrier or dentist? Your stereotyping is way off.
The pushback of the woke will occur in shunning. A number of people have told me they won’t hire people who state their pronouns on resumes and correspondence. It indicates ‘warped’ orientation and potential trouble.
Good.
I’ve noticed that trans people seem to be employed in customer service jobe where they’re not visible, but a keen ear can tell that we don’t know who we’re talking to.
Good.
I’ve noticed that trans people seem to be employed in customer service jobe where they’re not visible, but a keen ear can tell that we don’t know who we’re talking to.
“Too many young people now believe this stuff and our only hope seems to be that they grow out of it.”
Indeed, but I think that they will grow out of it pretty fast. I had some weird ideas in my head as a youngster, but even then I knew that I was indulging myself. Go Woke Go Broke is a powerful antiseptic, as Netflix has already discovered, and publishing houses that publish second rate rate books will soon discover. Money doesn’t speak softly.
J, My guess is within 8 years the woke are going to be bitten by reality, a bite which they will not believe the ferocity of…. One like a Russian Peasant got from a wolf….
ChatGPT is going to take almost every woke person’s job. I’ll still be out there with the meth head carpenters and roofers pounding nails on the construction site – but these blue haired, nose ring people? Their jobs are toast.
It is over. The steam train and factory steam engine ended slavery. Manpower was not worth the cost of keeping, that Industrializing did away with 10,000 years where all was done by animal and human physical labour.
The gas tractor, truck, and car flipped that statistic which always ruled – 80% – 90% farm and work the ag communities – 10% are all it took with tractors – it happened with lightening speed. The country person was obsolete as the slave had become 70 years before.
And so the factory worker – by the 1970s they were pretty well done in the West, they had their 70 years.
And so what ever weird thing it is the woke do, and they gained traction in the 60s, so 60 years now – and Chat GPT has now taken their whole point, and their way to make a living (what ever it was, I never could figure out what they did).
And so they will have to move on….find something else to do – likely it will mostly involve doing nothing in Basic Income Abject Poverty; with the fast coming Great Depression. I mean – they never seemed to me to do anything useful anyway, basically were ‘Consumers’ paid to do stuff so they could consume to keep the economy going – on Government borrowed $Trillions – but now ChatGPT can do it for them…
The pushback of the woke will occur in shunning. A number of people have told me they won’t hire people who state their pronouns on resumes and correspondence. It indicates ‘warped’ orientation and potential trouble.
Great interview. Lionel covers much familiar ground but I particularly appreciated her point that DEI is now a source of well-paid corporate jobs for otherwise unemployable people. Those folks will ride the DEI gravy train for as long as possible.
My own opinion, for what it’s worth, is we have not reached peak woke, or if we have reached peak woke it will plateau and hold steady for years. I see little meaningful pushback. As mentioned by one of the audience members, Konstantin Kisin convincingly won a debate at the Oxford Union recently by arguing against woke ideology. Well done, but what has changed in the real world? Too many young people now believe this stuff and our only hope seems to be that they grow out of it.
I would enjoy more questions from the audience. Those are often fun and can lead to enlightening exchanges.
The interviewer did a good job. Apparently she is book editor at Unherd. I would be interested to know what that job entails at an organization like Unherd.
“At places like UnHerd, we may feel we’re winning the argument because the essays are so good but that doesn’t mean that they’re teaching UnHerd essays in university, as they should do. I’m afraid that none of the people who need to be persuaded are reading this stuff. It’s a very atomised media situation.”
A superb interview with an intelligent lady.
“At places like UnHerd, we may feel we’re winning the argument because the essays are so good but that doesn’t mean that they’re teaching UnHerd essays in university, as they should do. I’m afraid that none of the people who need to be persuaded are reading this stuff. It’s a very atomised media situation.”
A superb interview with an intelligent lady.
I notice Lionel describes herself as a professional American and professional white person. When will publishers employ such people to sensitively read the work of “minority” authors (or is the woke term now global or sexual majority?) I would like as an elderly white male to apply to be a sensitive reader representing this minority class. I would have a field day pointing out all the offensive passages in Julie Bindel’s articles if Unherd cares to adopt such an approach. I could then go on to greater things harassing authors worldwide for representing my minority in stereotypical form. It would certainly be a pity if One Foot in the Grave had to no longer be released as misrepresenting the elderly. A terrible slur to suggest we are all grumpy gits even if quite a few of us are.
I can see how passing your non-fiction book to an expert before publication may help to improve it. He or she can offer knowledge and advice for re-writes and depth of situation and circumstances that your own research may not necessarily uncover.
However, to pass your book to a professional grievance-finder is a whole ‘nother matter.
Orwell had to switch publisher for ‘Homage to Catalonia’. Gollancz was for censoring uncomfortable truths for a left wing audience.
Forms of political censorship thus always existed in liberal economies but fortunately we have a competitive publishing industry so somehow an outlet will be found, much as Orwell did eventually himself. UnHerd itself of course helps this crucial pluralism.
The concept of a “sensitive” reader seems misapplied if it reduces the author to tears as related by Lionel Schriver. A little more sensitivity to authors might be in order.
What about all of those sensitive book buyers outraged by having their versions of Roald Dahl bowdlerised. Perhaps there is room for multiple versions of books to be published to cater for differing intersectional tastes. Apartheid for readers. Separate but equal.
I seem to think I heard that the publishers of Roald Dahl were coming out with two different versions of the same books. The original and the desensitized -new and improved!
I seem to think I heard that the publishers of Roald Dahl were coming out with two different versions of the same books. The original and the desensitized -new and improved!
Orwell had to switch publisher for ‘Homage to Catalonia’. Gollancz was for censoring uncomfortable truths for a left wing audience.
Forms of political censorship thus always existed in liberal economies but fortunately we have a competitive publishing industry so somehow an outlet will be found, much as Orwell did eventually himself. UnHerd itself of course helps this crucial pluralism.
The concept of a “sensitive” reader seems misapplied if it reduces the author to tears as related by Lionel Schriver. A little more sensitivity to authors might be in order.
What about all of those sensitive book buyers outraged by having their versions of Roald Dahl bowdlerised. Perhaps there is room for multiple versions of books to be published to cater for differing intersectional tastes. Apartheid for readers. Separate but equal.
Are old white males a minority? Where do you live?
I can see how passing your non-fiction book to an expert before publication may help to improve it. He or she can offer knowledge and advice for re-writes and depth of situation and circumstances that your own research may not necessarily uncover.
However, to pass your book to a professional grievance-finder is a whole ‘nother matter.
Are old white males a minority? Where do you live?
I notice Lionel describes herself as a professional American and professional white person. When will publishers employ such people to sensitively read the work of “minority” authors (or is the woke term now global or sexual majority?) I would like as an elderly white male to apply to be a sensitive reader representing this minority class. I would have a field day pointing out all the offensive passages in Julie Bindel’s articles if Unherd cares to adopt such an approach. I could then go on to greater things harassing authors worldwide for representing my minority in stereotypical form. It would certainly be a pity if One Foot in the Grave had to no longer be released as misrepresenting the elderly. A terrible slur to suggest we are all grumpy gits even if quite a few of us are.
Praise the Lord for Lionel Shriver!
Perhaps she was Predestined for just such a day . . . ? 😉
Perhaps she was Predestined for just such a day . . . ? 😉
Praise the Lord for Lionel Shriver!
The idea that fiction is required to be authentic is just bizarre. Of course, there are genres where the reader revels in authentic details – the Jack Reacher series and Bravo Two Zero etc – but then, at the opposite end of the spectrum is Alice Through The Looking Glass. Fiction is fictional, for heaven’s sake.
The idea that fiction is required to be authentic is just bizarre. Of course, there are genres where the reader revels in authentic details – the Jack Reacher series and Bravo Two Zero etc – but then, at the opposite end of the spectrum is Alice Through The Looking Glass. Fiction is fictional, for heaven’s sake.
This interview reminded me of why I love Lionel Shriver! So much sane, good sense, expressed with such forceful plain-spoken clarity. She has identified so many things, not least in relation to NewSpeak-type language perversions and the corruption of education and literature, against which we need to be vocal and vigorous in our resistance. Let’s follow where she leads!
This interview reminded me of why I love Lionel Shriver! So much sane, good sense, expressed with such forceful plain-spoken clarity. She has identified so many things, not least in relation to NewSpeak-type language perversions and the corruption of education and literature, against which we need to be vocal and vigorous in our resistance. Let’s follow where she leads!
Talk about preconceptions. Not withstanding that ‘Lionel Shriver’ might be a nom de plume, but, not only did I take her, in my minds eye, for being a hairy arsed bloke, but a Jewish one at that. More fool me ! 😀
Yes a clear piece of cultural appropriation. You expect an agonised Franz Kafka writer and get a feisty lapsed Protestant woman. It subverts our cherished stereotypes.
Margaret Shriver until age 15.
balls but only figuratively . . .
Yes a clear piece of cultural appropriation. You expect an agonised Franz Kafka writer and get a feisty lapsed Protestant woman. It subverts our cherished stereotypes.
Margaret Shriver until age 15.
balls but only figuratively . . .
Talk about preconceptions. Not withstanding that ‘Lionel Shriver’ might be a nom de plume, but, not only did I take her, in my minds eye, for being a hairy arsed bloke, but a Jewish one at that. More fool me ! 😀
I eagerly await the product of this line of editing with riveting sentences such as these……”After catching one another in several longing and seductive glances during the cocktail hour, person A walked up to person B, took hold of one of their upper appendages and placed their pursed mouth on the side of the membrane that covered their skull.”
“So how long have you been a woman?” Person A asked with a seductive purr in their voice.
You will unfortunately have to eliminate the words ‘longing’ and ‘seductive’ in that sentence….
“So how long have you been a woman?” Person A asked with a seductive purr in their voice.
You will unfortunately have to eliminate the words ‘longing’ and ‘seductive’ in that sentence….
I eagerly await the product of this line of editing with riveting sentences such as these……”After catching one another in several longing and seductive glances during the cocktail hour, person A walked up to person B, took hold of one of their upper appendages and placed their pursed mouth on the side of the membrane that covered their skull.”
“The problem is not only young people. And I have to say, I feel a kind of funny mea culpa in relation to my own youth. I grew up at the tail end of the so-called Sixties, which in truth lasted well into the Seventies. And this is where a lot of this stuff was born — and by the way, as a kid, I bought into it hook line and sinker. I would still oppose the Vietnam War, if I could go back, and I still recycle. But this whole obsession with self-criticism, which has an almost communist touch and feel, started back then . . . The Boomer generation brought this stuff to life. And those are the people who took over the universities.”
Spot on. The Long March through the Institutions — Mao, via Gramsci — has worked. Spectacularly.
Which is why: “a lot of the parents believe the same stuff. And so the kids are not entirely against the parents. What dismays me about younger people these days is: they don’t rebel. This is what they’re being told. This is what a lot of their parents believe. It’s not rebellion, it’s anything but: it’s conformity, total conformity.” (There is a Nancy cartoon in which she confronts an aging hippie wearing a “Question Authority” t-shirt, and asks him: “says who?” This is exactly what is NOT happening.)
“Question Authority:” the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.
Allez Lionel! Keep preaching to this choir . . .
Apparently young men are very much less ‘wike’ than girls ..
Apparently young men are very much less ‘wike’ than girls ..
“The problem is not only young people. And I have to say, I feel a kind of funny mea culpa in relation to my own youth. I grew up at the tail end of the so-called Sixties, which in truth lasted well into the Seventies. And this is where a lot of this stuff was born — and by the way, as a kid, I bought into it hook line and sinker. I would still oppose the Vietnam War, if I could go back, and I still recycle. But this whole obsession with self-criticism, which has an almost communist touch and feel, started back then . . . The Boomer generation brought this stuff to life. And those are the people who took over the universities.”
Spot on. The Long March through the Institutions — Mao, via Gramsci — has worked. Spectacularly.
Which is why: “a lot of the parents believe the same stuff. And so the kids are not entirely against the parents. What dismays me about younger people these days is: they don’t rebel. This is what they’re being told. This is what a lot of their parents believe. It’s not rebellion, it’s anything but: it’s conformity, total conformity.” (There is a Nancy cartoon in which she confronts an aging hippie wearing a “Question Authority” t-shirt, and asks him: “says who?” This is exactly what is NOT happening.)
“Question Authority:” the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.
Allez Lionel! Keep preaching to this choir . . .
Really enjoyed that Article. Lots of good common sense.
Nonetheless still think the term Woke is used lazily and almost meaninglessly by way too many. Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you. You ask someone that question they get tongue tied, confused and largely incoherent. Then angry, usually.
Importantly we need to be careful Woke isn’t used as a camouflage for bigotry and call that out when we plainly see it. Furthermore lazy use of the ‘elite’ memes – basically warped into meaning anyone with an education rather than the real billionaires and oligarchs, is just plan silly and self defeating. Yes we probably do need a rebalance on numbers going to Uni, but let’s not get into some Jacobin/Leninist purge mentality rubbish. It’s an approach with a long history that Wokers are not the first to promulgate Similarly not all teaching about slavery is CRT either and some rebalancing of our historical landscape not unneeded.
So v much welcome the skewering of proper Woke twaddle by likes of Shriver, but that doesn’t mean all the Anti-Wokers are immune from corresponding utter twaddle too.
If you are living in the UK it’s worth listening to “Woke: The Journey of a Word” by Matthew Syed. It’s available on BBC Sounds.
Good news: BBC radio content is available internationally on BBC Sounds…..so no need to be living in the UK.
Good news: BBC radio content is available internationally on BBC Sounds…..so no need to be living in the UK.
“Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you. ”
Woke is the new ideology of the rent-seeking class. It exists to deflect attention from the most brutal class war since the 1890s.
That’s one definition but there coud be many more. It seems open to subjectivity.
Redirecting the protest potential of mostly young people into a safe channel for the elites. Imitation of the struggle for justice.
That’s one definition but there coud be many more. It seems open to subjectivity.
Redirecting the protest potential of mostly young people into a safe channel for the elites. Imitation of the struggle for justice.
One reason ‘woke’ obtains is because of the absence of an alternative. Like pornography, you may not be able to define ‘woke’, but you know it when you see it.
It’s a label that gets slapped on whatever someone doesn’t like, as a put down.
It’s a label that gets slapped on whatever someone doesn’t like, as a put down.
“Nonetheless still think the term Woke is used lazily and almost meaninglessly by way too many. Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you.”
I most certainly can:-
The authoritarian pseudo-progressive usurpation of liberalism.
Moreover, my definition was taken up a few months ago by an English-French dictionary, which cited it as an example of the usage of “liberalism”:-
https://www.lalanguefrancaise.com/dictionnaire/english-french/liberalism-en
I can define it too : it’s b*llocks peddled by people who haven’t got any.
You will not find me disagreeing with you.
You will not find me disagreeing with you.
Good one.
Moreover, my definition was taken up a few months ago by an English-French dictionary, which cited it as an example of the usage of “liberalism”:-
https://www.lalanguefrancaise.com/dictionnaire/english-french/liberalism-en
I can define it too : it’s b*llocks peddled by people who haven’t got any.
Good one.
It’s just one of many strategies for implementing a Kantian-Fictean universalist morality.
Here you go: “Woke” means supporting gender ideology, critical race theory, and activism to prevent supposedly apocalyptic climate change,
Methodological Woke is at least as old as Plato’s cave. Substantive Woke (genuflecting with Kaepernick, homage to St George Floyd) is an orthodoxy — something entirely different.
I’m hoping it’s possible to take the middle ground where I think a lot us reside. Have compassion, but refuse to be guilt tripped into something that doesn’t feel right.
Woke is synonymous with progressive these days, from what I can tell. Both terms are misnomers, so don’t help much as definitions.
Aren’t you having it both ways? Demanding people define ‘woke’ but then using the term and not doing so yourself. Susan Neiman the leftwing philosopher, declines to do so anyway:
https://unherd.com/2023/03/the-true-left-is-not-woke/
I would say, people motivated by trying to help this or that identity group, but being completely intolerant of any dissenting views in doing so, conflicting claims or science, and loathing of their inherited culture with no sense of proportion or comparison with other societies.
You are posing as so many do a completely false equivalence – what bigotry are you talking about? Racism for example has hugely declined; we can measure social attitudes. Children have been taught about slavery for decades.
University education in the West, especially but not only in the humanities is overwhelmingly dominated by the Left. has become largely an intolerant intellectual monoculture among staff and students. The Jacobins are amongst that group and no-one else, like many would argue their Bolshevik forebears. So please no false equivalence or distortion on what is going on.
Been quite a range of definitions haven’t there as evident from above.
I think your 2nd para one of the better one’s, but in reality that then is a much narrower definition and you may find it difficult to pin that clearly on all your intended targets. You also assume you can define, and possibly position yourself as a custodian for, ‘inherited culture’. That’s heck of an assumption. We could get into how you define inherited culture but that’s a debate for another time perhaps.
Just on one other theme – I believe racism has declined, but certainly not disappeared. So cause to celebrate (which some Wokers possibly wouldn’t?) but not to be complacent either. As regards one example – children being taught about slavery – yes to a degree but much removed before hand too. For example we were taught much about Wilberforce in the UK – the great white campaigner. We weren’t taught about the compensation paid to slave-owners or things like the Demerara Uprising. Now it’s of intrigue why were some bits back in my schooldays in the curriculum and some not? It’s no bad thing we are now having additional layers of our history explained and shared. And it’s no bad thing to ask the question – why did we exclude some elements.
I think you lack a bit of confidence in the rebalancing, whereas I generally don’t and in fact I see it as a strength of the society we live in. I think the more daft bits of what seems to be defined as Woke will have a limited shelf-life, and the bits that have good sense will stick with future generations seeing to that.
Been quite a range of definitions haven’t there as evident from above.
I think your 2nd para one of the better one’s, but in reality that then is a much narrower definition and you may find it difficult to pin that clearly on all your intended targets. You also assume you can define, and possibly position yourself as a custodian for, ‘inherited culture’. That’s heck of an assumption. We could get into how you define inherited culture but that’s a debate for another time perhaps.
Just on one other theme – I believe racism has declined, but certainly not disappeared. So cause to celebrate (which some Wokers possibly wouldn’t?) but not to be complacent either. As regards one example – children being taught about slavery – yes to a degree but much removed before hand too. For example we were taught much about Wilberforce in the UK – the great white campaigner. We weren’t taught about the compensation paid to slave-owners or things like the Demerara Uprising. Now it’s of intrigue why were some bits back in my schooldays in the curriculum and some not? It’s no bad thing we are now having additional layers of our history explained and shared. And it’s no bad thing to ask the question – why did we exclude some elements.
I think you lack a bit of confidence in the rebalancing, whereas I generally don’t and in fact I see it as a strength of the society we live in. I think the more daft bits of what seems to be defined as Woke will have a limited shelf-life, and the bits that have good sense will stick with future generations seeing to that.
“Define it in one sentence?” Woke = having critical consciousness
Bloody hell.. the level of arrogance..
Bloody hell.. the level of arrogance..
If you are living in the UK it’s worth listening to “Woke: The Journey of a Word” by Matthew Syed. It’s available on BBC Sounds.
“Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you. ”
Woke is the new ideology of the rent-seeking class. It exists to deflect attention from the most brutal class war since the 1890s.
One reason ‘woke’ obtains is because of the absence of an alternative. Like pornography, you may not be able to define ‘woke’, but you know it when you see it.
“Nonetheless still think the term Woke is used lazily and almost meaninglessly by way too many. Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you.”
I most certainly can:-
The authoritarian pseudo-progressive usurpation of liberalism.
It’s just one of many strategies for implementing a Kantian-Fictean universalist morality.
Here you go: “Woke” means supporting gender ideology, critical race theory, and activism to prevent supposedly apocalyptic climate change,
Methodological Woke is at least as old as Plato’s cave. Substantive Woke (genuflecting with Kaepernick, homage to St George Floyd) is an orthodoxy — something entirely different.
I’m hoping it’s possible to take the middle ground where I think a lot us reside. Have compassion, but refuse to be guilt tripped into something that doesn’t feel right.
Woke is synonymous with progressive these days, from what I can tell. Both terms are misnomers, so don’t help much as definitions.
Aren’t you having it both ways? Demanding people define ‘woke’ but then using the term and not doing so yourself. Susan Neiman the leftwing philosopher, declines to do so anyway:
https://unherd.com/2023/03/the-true-left-is-not-woke/
I would say, people motivated by trying to help this or that identity group, but being completely intolerant of any dissenting views in doing so, conflicting claims or science, and loathing of their inherited culture with no sense of proportion or comparison with other societies.
You are posing as so many do a completely false equivalence – what bigotry are you talking about? Racism for example has hugely declined; we can measure social attitudes. Children have been taught about slavery for decades.
University education in the West, especially but not only in the humanities is overwhelmingly dominated by the Left. has become largely an intolerant intellectual monoculture among staff and students. The Jacobins are amongst that group and no-one else, like many would argue their Bolshevik forebears. So please no false equivalence or distortion on what is going on.
“Define it in one sentence?” Woke = having critical consciousness
Really enjoyed that Article. Lots of good common sense.
Nonetheless still think the term Woke is used lazily and almost meaninglessly by way too many. Define it in one sentence? You can’t can you. You ask someone that question they get tongue tied, confused and largely incoherent. Then angry, usually.
Importantly we need to be careful Woke isn’t used as a camouflage for bigotry and call that out when we plainly see it. Furthermore lazy use of the ‘elite’ memes – basically warped into meaning anyone with an education rather than the real billionaires and oligarchs, is just plan silly and self defeating. Yes we probably do need a rebalance on numbers going to Uni, but let’s not get into some Jacobin/Leninist purge mentality rubbish. It’s an approach with a long history that Wokers are not the first to promulgate Similarly not all teaching about slavery is CRT either and some rebalancing of our historical landscape not unneeded.
So v much welcome the skewering of proper Woke twaddle by likes of Shriver, but that doesn’t mean all the Anti-Wokers are immune from corresponding utter twaddle too.
What Lionel Shriver describes within the world of publishing in such refreshingly forthright fashion applies just as much – indeed, possibly more so – to the art world.
I suspect this is due to the reputation that the visual arts have for being able to be offensive, and association with the avante guard, more so than the literary world. There’s nothing quite as ‘shocking’ as being confronted with a piece of genuinely transgressive (of norms) art, whereas reading a book has a more time-dependent element of absorption.
Great discussion, and i can identify with many of the formative mental leaps that she describes. I believe this is something inherent in the human condition. However, the 1960/70s generation which perhaps became the most iconoclastic in history left little space for the generations which have followed. The former think they’re still being hip by ceding the cultural prerogative (as LS describes happening within publishing houses) to the younger generation, without realising that it gives them nothing to rebel against. But in time, they will find a way.
What Lionel Shriver describes within the world of publishing in such refreshingly forthright fashion applies just as much – indeed, possibly more so – to the art world.
I suspect this is due to the reputation that the visual arts have for being able to be offensive, and association with the avante guard, more so than the literary world. There’s nothing quite as ‘shocking’ as being confronted with a piece of genuinely transgressive (of norms) art, whereas reading a book has a more time-dependent element of absorption.
Great discussion, and i can identify with many of the formative mental leaps that she describes. I believe this is something inherent in the human condition. However, the 1960/70s generation which perhaps became the most iconoclastic in history left little space for the generations which have followed. The former think they’re still being hip by ceding the cultural prerogative (as LS describes happening within publishing houses) to the younger generation, without realising that it gives them nothing to rebel against. But in time, they will find a way.
Woke. Not allowed to say what you think, describe what you don’t like. Contempt of Court, no matter how wrong the Court may be. 1984.
Is this really the sort of stuff women write and think about? It is unreadable, it is like some Sisyphean ordeal where you get through the rambling answer, and with a bit of hope look to the next question….
And it is the same question thing all over again, and so is the long answer – and and then another nothing question, and them more of nothing answered – but said long and slow, and then…..and then……To survive it I had to skip 90%, but kept looking for the wheat in the chaff…I guess you had to be a woman to find it.
Anyone who thinks Men and Women are the same – read that ordeal above, and ask yourself – could this Ever have been written by a Man?
Being pretty much an Alpha Male, kind of patriarchy and macho, this article calls out that the Men are from Mars; Women from Venus…they are….. it is proven now…..
Maybe I spend too much time in the real world…….
Bravo.
The only rambling here is this comment. Haven’t a clue what you’re on about
I couldn’t figure that out either. In the end, I concluded he hadn’t read the interview at all.
I couldn’t figure that out either. In the end, I concluded he hadn’t read the interview at all.
“ I had to skip 90%, but kept looking for the wheat in the chaff”
Not much point skipping 90% if you are actually looking for the wheat in the chaff. There is often a bit of wheat in the chaff you offer up in your comments but it would certainly be missed if the reader didn’t read 90%.
I hope you weren’t thrown by the author’s masculine first name and was expecting the ruminations of a bloke.
Indeed, and i’ve pointed this out previously.
What we’re describing is something which is part of the problem, not the solution.
There was very little if any chaff in that excellent interview.
Indeed, and i’ve pointed this out previously.
What we’re describing is something which is part of the problem, not the solution.
There was very little if any chaff in that excellent interview.
What?
What indeed? What a load of meaningless drivel.
What indeed? What a load of meaningless drivel.
Major misinterpretation of the article.
Yeah, rambling comments are really irritating.
At least this one wasn’t longer than the original essay.
At least this one wasn’t longer than the original essay.
” Is this really the sort of stuff women write and think about?”
Or maybe this is the best response one could expect from a pompous male who offers such a pathetic comment after reading 10% of the article.
I despair.
I’m guessing you didn’t read the interview at all, because nobody who can read could possibly come up with such a ridiculous and twisted interpretation of a very fine, interesting and eminently readable interview.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I think not!
I know you don’t always seem to be too aware of what is going on, context or anything much, but this was a transcription of a talk at UnHerd! With a Q and A at the end. The transcribed language seemed clear as a bell to me, unlike I have to say, some of your own ungrammatical ramblings.
Thank you also so much for again apprising us of your dominant status; I’m sure we are pleased to hear this.
What on earth are you babbling on about?
Bravo.
The only rambling here is this comment. Haven’t a clue what you’re on about
“ I had to skip 90%, but kept looking for the wheat in the chaff”
Not much point skipping 90% if you are actually looking for the wheat in the chaff. There is often a bit of wheat in the chaff you offer up in your comments but it would certainly be missed if the reader didn’t read 90%.
I hope you weren’t thrown by the author’s masculine first name and was expecting the ruminations of a bloke.
What?
Major misinterpretation of the article.
Yeah, rambling comments are really irritating.
” Is this really the sort of stuff women write and think about?”
Or maybe this is the best response one could expect from a pompous male who offers such a pathetic comment after reading 10% of the article.
I despair.
I’m guessing you didn’t read the interview at all, because nobody who can read could possibly come up with such a ridiculous and twisted interpretation of a very fine, interesting and eminently readable interview.
I think not!
I know you don’t always seem to be too aware of what is going on, context or anything much, but this was a transcription of a talk at UnHerd! With a Q and A at the end. The transcribed language seemed clear as a bell to me, unlike I have to say, some of your own ungrammatical ramblings.
Thank you also so much for again apprising us of your dominant status; I’m sure we are pleased to hear this.
What on earth are you babbling on about?
Is this really the sort of stuff women write and think about? It is unreadable, it is like some Sisyphean ordeal where you get through the rambling answer, and with a bit of hope look to the next question….
And it is the same question thing all over again, and so is the long answer – and and then another nothing question, and them more of nothing answered – but said long and slow, and then…..and then……To survive it I had to skip 90%, but kept looking for the wheat in the chaff…I guess you had to be a woman to find it.
Anyone who thinks Men and Women are the same – read that ordeal above, and ask yourself – could this Ever have been written by a Man?
Being pretty much an Alpha Male, kind of patriarchy and macho, this article calls out that the Men are from Mars; Women from Venus…they are….. it is proven now…..
Maybe I spend too much time in the real world…….