This was unspeakably grim to read.
I ask myself how i would endure such circumstances. Honestly, i don’t know. But i thank Unherd for bringing it to our attention.
They stripped them naked, savaged them with dogs, forced them to masturbate in front of hysterical nurses, then waterboarded them, and then claimed none of that is torture.
Still it was lucky they didn’t get the full ‘ Soldier Blue’ nonsense, breasts cut off, then scrapped out to make tobacco pouches etc.
I think you will find that generally the Americans don’t do it.
During World War 2 we Brits and Americans realised intelligence was gathered more efficiently by humane questioning.There will always be exceptions but this general rule applies.
German troops did not want to surrender to the Soviets but rather to the Allies.
Russia hasn’t changed and neither has its armed forces.
The Ukrainians (esp the Militias) enjoy torturing those of their countrymen with possible connections to anything Russian. It is like the worst of the Troubles in Northern Ireland multiplied many times over.
“countryman” – you mean those Ukrainians who have gone to fight for Russia, the so called L/DPR guys?
The same people that love to torture “their countryman” for being loyal to Ukraine (as Ukrainians in Ukraine)
They are traitors and quick death is the best outcome they can hope for.
“countryman” – you mean those Ukrainians who have gone to fight for Russia, the so called L/DPR guys?
The same people that love to torture “their countryman” for being loyal to Ukraine (as Ukrainians in Ukraine)
They are traitors and quick death is the best outcome they can hope for.
If you read William Blum’s book ‘Killing Hope’ (Praised by the likes of Chomsky and Vidal), you will see how the USA has trained, funded and sponsored dictatorships for decades including including indiscriminate torture and murder. I’m no Russia apologist, Russia are undoubtedly involved in a number of human rights violations but to paint the Ukrainian situation as black and white is going down the wrong path Politics is much more nuanced
The Ukrainians (esp the Militias) enjoy torturing those of their countrymen with possible connections to anything Russian. It is like the worst of the Troubles in Northern Ireland multiplied many times over.
If you read William Blum’s book ‘Killing Hope’ (Praised by the likes of Chomsky and Vidal), you will see how the USA has trained, funded and sponsored dictatorships for decades including including indiscriminate torture and murder. I’m no Russia apologist, Russia are undoubtedly involved in a number of human rights violations but to paint the Ukrainian situation as black and white is going down the wrong path Politics is much more nuanced
They stripped them naked, savaged them with dogs, forced them to masturbate in front of hysterical nurses, then waterboarded them, and then claimed none of that is torture.
Still it was lucky they didn’t get the full ‘ Soldier Blue’ nonsense, breasts cut off, then scrapped out to make tobacco pouches etc.
I think you will find that generally the Americans don’t do it.
During World War 2 we Brits and Americans realised intelligence was gathered more efficiently by humane questioning.There will always be exceptions but this general rule applies.
German troops did not want to surrender to the Soviets but rather to the Allies.
Russia hasn’t changed and neither has its armed forces.
This was unspeakably grim to read.
I ask myself how i would endure such circumstances. Honestly, i don’t know. But i thank Unherd for bringing it to our attention.
Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Arthur G
1 year ago
This article should give anyone who does not want the West to fully arm Ukraine great pause. This is what you’re wishing on the citizens of Ukraine. This is the monstrous evil that is Russia.
Arthur G
1 year ago
This article should give anyone who does not want the West to fully arm Ukraine great pause. This is what you’re wishing on the citizens of Ukraine. This is the monstrous evil that is Russia.
Jim R
1 year ago
Will tomorrow’s edition have coverage of the abuses on the Ukraine side? The internet is filled with photos and videos of citizens being tied to lamp posts by Ukrainian soldiers, evidently tried and convicted on the spot, and then having their pants pulled down for public humiliation. Not as bad as electroshock to your genitals of course, but one of the victims i saw was an 11 year old girl. Who knows what might be revealed if journalists actually did their jobs. Balanced reporting should tell us the whole truth. Of course then we might start to question the good guys versus the bad guys narratives being rammed down our throats every day.
I was just waiting for such a post and you’ve fulfilled. There is a difference between the invaders’ indiscriminate actions and those trying to defend their country and root out traitors. The Ukrainians are definitely no angels but they have been forced to be like this. They wouldn’t have been in this situation at all if Putin had chosen a different path.
Did i say there was no difference? I actually said quite literally the opposite. Sounds like you were waiting for a different post and just took the first slightly sceptical remark as a cue to waive your Ukrainian flag and demonstrate your mindless piety.
You didn’t. Read your post again. Insults containing “mindless” and “piety” expose your true intellect. “Ukrainian”? I do not want any more wars in Europe, my father and other relatives had to suffer WW2 and Putin has just started another one which will undoubtedly spread. To my mind the Ukrainians can do whatever is necessary to rid Europe of this cancer, but at the moment the attrocities are largely done by Russian forces.
Still implies the Ukrainians are nasty pieces of work. “Not as bad as electroshock to your genitals of course, but one of the victims i saw was an 11 year old girl.”
Still implies the Ukrainians are nasty pieces of work. “Not as bad as electroshock to your genitals of course, but one of the victims i saw was an 11 year old girl.”
You implied that there were Ukrainian atrocities out there, while using the humiliation of collaborators as somehow equivalent.
Rather like saying shaving the heads of women who fraternized with Germans was the same as Klaus Barbie torturing French people.
Truly ingenious!
You didn’t. Read your post again. Insults containing “mindless” and “piety” expose your true intellect. “Ukrainian”? I do not want any more wars in Europe, my father and other relatives had to suffer WW2 and Putin has just started another one which will undoubtedly spread. To my mind the Ukrainians can do whatever is necessary to rid Europe of this cancer, but at the moment the attrocities are largely done by Russian forces.
You implied that there were Ukrainian atrocities out there, while using the humiliation of collaborators as somehow equivalent.
Rather like saying shaving the heads of women who fraternized with Germans was the same as Klaus Barbie torturing French people.
Truly ingenious!
There are huge differences, though. Violence, brutal acts, even war crimes do occur usually on both sides in a bitter war. But there is a world of difference between occasional criminal behaviour and systematic brutalization of civilians, Gestapo style, as Russia does in the territories it occupies. It also makes a big difference if such behaviour is prosecuted by the army whose members engaged in it or is being encouraged.
There are huge differences, though. Violence, brutal acts, even war crimes do occur usually on both sides in a bitter war. But there is a world of difference between occasional criminal behaviour and systematic brutalization of civilians, Gestapo style, as Russia does in the territories it occupies. It also makes a big difference if such behaviour is prosecuted by the army whose members engaged in it or is being encouraged.
Did i say there was no difference? I actually said quite literally the opposite. Sounds like you were waiting for a different post and just took the first slightly sceptical remark as a cue to waive your Ukrainian flag and demonstrate your mindless piety.
As I have noted in an earlier comment, if you have factual information about these things, I encourage you to write an article for UnHerd in reply to this article and share it with us all. I look forward to reading it.
Oh Peter, I seem to have missed your article full of facts – can you please send the link? I bet there’s a Peter B in a comment section in Russia somewhere who’s smugly dismissing the possibility of Russian atrocities on the basis that he hasn’t seen it reported. That’s how propaganda works – many people just can’t wrap their heads around the possibility that they aren’t getting all the facts.
But I don’t need to post anything, do I ? I generally accept this article.
The onus is on you to produce counter-evidence. I tried to do so in a polite and encouraging manner and avoid using the phrase “put up, or shut up”. But it seems that’s not the way you like to debate.
I didn’t reject anything in this article, I only called for balance in reporting. You are therefore objecting to balance and attacking anyone who calls for it. Nothing polite or encouraging about that.
Logical fallacy there – because you think I don’t agree with you, that means I must oppose you. Simply doesn’t follow.
Read the comments again. I never objected to balance. Quite the opposite. I invited you to write a full article putting your side of the story – I will certainly support this if you ask UnHerd.
Is this something you wish to do ?
Note: interesting to note that you fully accept the article (you “reject nothing” – your exact words). So you have accepted in full the reports of atrocities documented in this article then.
Logical fallacy there – because you think I don’t agree with you, that means I must oppose you. Simply doesn’t follow.
Read the comments again. I never objected to balance. Quite the opposite. I invited you to write a full article putting your side of the story – I will certainly support this if you ask UnHerd.
Is this something you wish to do ?
Note: interesting to note that you fully accept the article (you “reject nothing” – your exact words). So you have accepted in full the reports of atrocities documented in this article then.
I didn’t reject anything in this article, I only called for balance in reporting. You are therefore objecting to balance and attacking anyone who calls for it. Nothing polite or encouraging about that.
But I don’t need to post anything, do I ? I generally accept this article.
The onus is on you to produce counter-evidence. I tried to do so in a polite and encouraging manner and avoid using the phrase “put up, or shut up”. But it seems that’s not the way you like to debate.
Oh Peter, I seem to have missed your article full of facts – can you please send the link? I bet there’s a Peter B in a comment section in Russia somewhere who’s smugly dismissing the possibility of Russian atrocities on the basis that he hasn’t seen it reported. That’s how propaganda works – many people just can’t wrap their heads around the possibility that they aren’t getting all the facts.
Fence-sitting, cloaked in priggism.
In a sense, none of what either side does is relevant.
The issue boils down to – who invaded? Who wants to eradicate its neighbour’s country? I’m on the side of the Ukrainians.
Which side are you on, mate?
Ah yes, the philosophy of George Bush and Anakin Skywalker. If you’re not with me, you’re against me. Welcome to the comment section, where nuance goes to die.
Ah yes, the philosophy of George Bush and Anakin Skywalker. If you’re not with me, you’re against me. Welcome to the comment section, where nuance goes to die.
Guntanamo Bay atrocities??
Was anyone killed?I remember a Morrocan national being paid £1million damages by we Brits and another who was welcomed back to the UK with open arms.
There is no equivalence between civilised countries like the UK and US and totalitarian regimes.
“Was anyone killed”?
Only a couple of million Iraqis, conscripts and civilians alike, who never asked for their country to be invaded by the USA on an invented and entirely false pretext (the nonexistent WMDs). Russia will have to commit a lot more atrocities to catch up with that record. But these victims were not white so maybe they don’t count?
I wonder what the source of information about these Russian “atrocities”.is It couldn’t just be the propaganda arm of the Ukrainian government, could it? Or some of the many “independent” bodies that are funded by the CIA?
Whatever, we may hope that there will be a war crimes trial after this war is over, and some genuinely independent body can set about the task of separating truth from propaganda.
There has already been a comprehensive report of war crimes in Ukraine by Amnesty International. These include numerous instances of the use of torture as well as the widespread use of civilians as human shields. These atrocities were committed by the Ukrainian side, and the report has conveniently been forgotten by our Fourth Estate.
“Was anyone killed”?
Only a couple of million Iraqis, conscripts and civilians alike, who never asked for their country to be invaded by the USA on an invented and entirely false pretext (the nonexistent WMDs). Russia will have to commit a lot more atrocities to catch up with that record. But these victims were not white so maybe they don’t count?
I wonder what the source of information about these Russian “atrocities”.is It couldn’t just be the propaganda arm of the Ukrainian government, could it? Or some of the many “independent” bodies that are funded by the CIA?
Whatever, we may hope that there will be a war crimes trial after this war is over, and some genuinely independent body can set about the task of separating truth from propaganda.
There has already been a comprehensive report of war crimes in Ukraine by Amnesty International. These include numerous instances of the use of torture as well as the widespread use of civilians as human shields. These atrocities were committed by the Ukrainian side, and the report has conveniently been forgotten by our Fourth Estate.
Guntanamo Bay atrocities??
Was anyone killed?I remember a Morrocan national being paid £1million damages by we Brits and another who was welcomed back to the UK with open arms.
There is no equivalence between civilised countries like the UK and US and totalitarian regimes.
Jim.
Think Bucha where 80 year old grandmothers were raped.
The Russians are the bad guys and yes I’m sure there are some bad Ukrainians.We all like to think we would not lose our moral compasses but when Russia is committing war crimes on a daily basis ie targeting civilians it must be very hard not to behave badly in some circumstances.
This isn’t “good guys vs bad guys.”
It’s insuring that people who do cold, calculated things like this don’t get a chance to do it anywhere else.
Like where you live.
I was just waiting for such a post and you’ve fulfilled. There is a difference between the invaders’ indiscriminate actions and those trying to defend their country and root out traitors. The Ukrainians are definitely no angels but they have been forced to be like this. They wouldn’t have been in this situation at all if Putin had chosen a different path.
As I have noted in an earlier comment, if you have factual information about these things, I encourage you to write an article for UnHerd in reply to this article and share it with us all. I look forward to reading it.
Fence-sitting, cloaked in priggism.
In a sense, none of what either side does is relevant.
The issue boils down to – who invaded? Who wants to eradicate its neighbour’s country? I’m on the side of the Ukrainians.
Which side are you on, mate?
Jim.
Think Bucha where 80 year old grandmothers were raped.
The Russians are the bad guys and yes I’m sure there are some bad Ukrainians.We all like to think we would not lose our moral compasses but when Russia is committing war crimes on a daily basis ie targeting civilians it must be very hard not to behave badly in some circumstances.
This isn’t “good guys vs bad guys.”
It’s insuring that people who do cold, calculated things like this don’t get a chance to do it anywhere else.
Like where you live.
Jim R
1 year ago
Will tomorrow’s edition have coverage of the abuses on the Ukraine side? The internet is filled with photos and videos of citizens being tied to lamp posts by Ukrainian soldiers, evidently tried and convicted on the spot, and then having their pants pulled down for public humiliation. Not as bad as electroshock to your genitals of course, but one of the victims i saw was an 11 year old girl. Who knows what might be revealed if journalists actually did their jobs. Balanced reporting should tell us the whole truth. Of course then we might start to question the good guys versus the bad guys narratives being rammed down our throats every day.
Andy E
1 year ago
We saw a lot of this kind of stuff from both sides. Idiots who blindly believe either of them. And BTW the author is known to be severely biased. Verdict: POS.
I would be inclined to agree as there are quite a few inconsistencies in this piece.
Will the Reckoning Project investigate war crimes and atrocities committed by the Ukrainian armed forces? Or is its purpose similar to that of the writer of this piece, to provide propaganda ensuring continued financial support and armament for Ukraine to continue this horrendous war.
Sooner or later this war will end either in nuclear war or all parties sitting down and talking. There aren’t ANY other alternatives. Russia can’t lose and Ukraine will never surrender. It’s just a matter of how many hundreds of thousands of people are going to die before it’s resolved.
It’s all just utterly depressing.
“We didn’t talk to ” is that so? Most of the European powers had treaties with H, no? What about Munich’38 ? Still doesn’t ring a bell? I watched the documentary about Olympic games in 1936 by that German filmmaker Leni Rlfdhgklhdfgh (I’m bad with names, sorry). Team after team were marching with N** salute showing how they don’t talk to the guy. (British and American teams gave a military salute, not a N* style) You know which team was not there? Russian.
Most European powers *did not* have treaties with Hitler. The only one I know of is the Soviet Union (the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). So your pretence that “Russia” (the Soviet Union in those days) was “whiter than white” just won’t wash (they also invaded Poland in 1939, just to top it off).
Munich 1938 was certainly not a “treaty”.
Please do correct me if I’m mistaken !
However in May 1938 at the England v Germany football match, held in the Berlin Olympic Stadium the English team did give the N*zi Salute at the start of the game.*
Most European powers *did not* have treaties with Hitler. The only one I know of is the Soviet Union (the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). So your pretence that “Russia” (the Soviet Union in those days) was “whiter than white” just won’t wash (they also invaded Poland in 1939, just to top it off).
Munich 1938 was certainly not a “treaty”.
Please do correct me if I’m mistaken !
However in May 1938 at the England v Germany football match, held in the Berlin Olympic Stadium the English team did give the N*zi Salute at the start of the game.*
“We didn’t talk to ” is that so? Most of the European powers had treaties with H, no? What about Munich’38 ? Still doesn’t ring a bell? I watched the documentary about Olympic games in 1936 by that German filmmaker Leni Rlfdhgklhdfgh (I’m bad with names, sorry). Team after team were marching with N** salute showing how they don’t talk to the guy. (British and American teams gave a military salute, not a N* style) You know which team was not there? Russian.
Russia seems to be losing quite well.
Zero gains, and the rasputitsa is starting.
But I’m sure that WW2 doc you saw a decade ago, with all the Siberian ski troops attacking in the midst of winter, means Stalin…I mean Putin…can’t lose.
Russia seems to be losing quite well.
Zero gains, and the rasputitsa is starting.
But I’m sure that WW2 doc you saw a decade ago, with all the Siberian ski troops attacking in the midst of winter, means Stalin…I mean Putin…can’t lose.
I would be inclined to agree as there are quite a few inconsistencies in this piece.
Will the Reckoning Project investigate war crimes and atrocities committed by the Ukrainian armed forces? Or is its purpose similar to that of the writer of this piece, to provide propaganda ensuring continued financial support and armament for Ukraine to continue this horrendous war.
Sooner or later this war will end either in nuclear war or all parties sitting down and talking. There aren’t ANY other alternatives. Russia can’t lose and Ukraine will never surrender. It’s just a matter of how many hundreds of thousands of people are going to die before it’s resolved.
It’s all just utterly depressing.
Last edited 1 year ago by 0 0
Andy E
1 year ago
We saw a lot of this kind of stuff from both sides. Idiots who blindly believe either of them. And BTW the author is known to be severely biased. Verdict: POS.
martin logan
1 year ago
I’m beginning to see some real panic among those who hope this will end with a “draw,” i.e. allow Putin to keep some of his gains since last year.
Fact is, he’s expended most of his mobiks for zero gains. The idea was to rev up the Russians back home with tales of bravery and conquest.
Instead, because he worked 20 years to insure that the masses would never come out on to the street like they did in 1991 and 2012, there is zero active support for the war.
Turn people into couch potatoes and they become…couch potatoes.
–Now the muddy season–the rasputitsa–is starting. No offensives will be possible for at least two months.
–The Ukrainians aren’t frozen or starved.
–No general Russian mobilization, because Putin knows that’s the one thing that will threaten his regime.
–And when the ground gets dry again, the Ukrainians will have their Leopards and long range missiles.
A democracy beating a dictatorship?
What a horrible prospect!
Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
I’m beginning to see some real panic among those who hope this will end with a “draw,” i.e. allow Putin to keep some of his gains since last year.
Fact is, he’s expended most of his mobiks for zero gains. The idea was to rev up the Russians back home with tales of bravery and conquest.
Instead, because he worked 20 years to insure that the masses would never come out on to the street like they did in 1991 and 2012, there is zero active support for the war.
Turn people into couch potatoes and they become…couch potatoes.
–Now the muddy season–the rasputitsa–is starting. No offensives will be possible for at least two months.
–The Ukrainians aren’t frozen or starved.
–No general Russian mobilization, because Putin knows that’s the one thing that will threaten his regime.
–And when the ground gets dry again, the Ukrainians will have their Leopards and long range missiles.
A democracy beating a dictatorship?
What a horrible prospect!
Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Malvin Marombedza
1 year ago
Standard Operating Procedure in Dictatorships. Robert was keen on doing it too.
Malvin Marombedza
1 year ago
Standard Operating Procedure in Dictatorships. Robert was keen on doing it too.
It’s not ‘propaganda’ because it is true. The language of Putin and the Russian leadership now amounts to near genocidal, Ukraine needs a ‘lustration’ for example. The call the Ukrainian leadership and an increasing proportion of the people ‘Nazis’. This is a term quite cleverly used because of its resonance in the West, but no-one cares in Putin’s clique about anti-semitism or the Holocaust – it just means any force which thinks the Ukrainians have the right to run their own affairs. Of course it is ludicrous since Far Right views are actively encouraged in Russia.
Every war the west propagandises has alleged major atrocities that turn out to be false. The evidence here is from the same people who gave us WMD, Syrian chemical attacks, Benghazi raids, and so on.
That doesn’t mean it is false, it does mean that it’s suspect.
Unfortunately, the idea that we might seek balance, and irrefutable evidence about claims made during conflicts, has long since been thrown in the bin. I’d have thought we’d have learnt to be more discerning after all the lies told about Germans crucifying our boys during WW1.
Ever heard of “barrel bombs” in Syria?
Or the constant attempts by Russia to freeze all Ukrainians?
And a thousand bodies with marks of torture all over them is not “suspect evidence.”
Unfortunately, the idea that we might seek balance, and irrefutable evidence about claims made during conflicts, has long since been thrown in the bin. I’d have thought we’d have learnt to be more discerning after all the lies told about Germans crucifying our boys during WW1.
Ever heard of “barrel bombs” in Syria?
Or the constant attempts by Russia to freeze all Ukrainians?
And a thousand bodies with marks of torture all over them is not “suspect evidence.”
To quote George Orwell:
‘All propaganda’s lying, whether mine or yours.
It’s lying even when the facts are true.’
The lying consists in the one-sidedness of the reporting, the inflation of one side’s crimes and the total lack of interest in acknowledging the other’s. Bias by omission.
We see it all over the modern MSM now, whether on climate, immigration, crime, housing, LGBTQPZ++?? or a host of other issues: if a story can’t be twisted to aid the Blackrock-WEF cosmo-liberal agenda, it simply isn’t reported at all.
Every war the west propagandises has alleged major atrocities that turn out to be false. The evidence here is from the same people who gave us WMD, Syrian chemical attacks, Benghazi raids, and so on.
That doesn’t mean it is false, it does mean that it’s suspect.
To quote George Orwell:
‘All propaganda’s lying, whether mine or yours.
It’s lying even when the facts are true.’
The lying consists in the one-sidedness of the reporting, the inflation of one side’s crimes and the total lack of interest in acknowledging the other’s. Bias by omission.
We see it all over the modern MSM now, whether on climate, immigration, crime, housing, LGBTQPZ++?? or a host of other issues: if a story can’t be twisted to aid the Blackrock-WEF cosmo-liberal agenda, it simply isn’t reported at all.
Totally agree. I must confess to not reading this report as this kind of horror is what I would expect from the dogs of war. I have read of the Ukrainians using nerve gas on Russians who died in horrendous pain. To say one side is worst than the other is not facing up to the horrors of war.
Peace talks need to be on the agenda now.
Perhaps you could provide evidence of the Ukrainian torture camps that are similar to those in the article? Or even of the nerve gas you claim they’ve used? I won’t hold my breath though
Quite, but given their decades of experience, I would expect the CIA and their galaxy of supporting acts to be somewhat better at it than the Russians.
Which never happened. Where were the thousands of Russian soldiers? Why did Poroshenko cut off pensions and medicines to win, neither of which measures was likely to affect Russian troops? Maybe you are thinking of the Crimea.
Which never happened. Where were the thousands of Russian soldiers? Why did Poroshenko cut off pensions and medicines to win, neither of which measures was likely to affect Russian troops? Maybe you are thinking of the Crimea.
Quite, but given their decades of experience, I would expect the CIA and their galaxy of supporting acts to be somewhat better at it than the Russians.
There’s a world of difference between CS gas and nerve gas. The fact you’ve downgraded it to such an extent already implies your stories aren’t too trustworthy in my eyes
There’s a world of difference between CS gas and nerve gas. The fact you’ve downgraded it to such an extent already implies your stories aren’t too trustworthy in my eyes
This report may or may not be true. Historians will hopefully extract truths, such as may ultimately be discovered, from the intense and layered propaganda streaming from both/all sides. Behold modern, Hybrid War.
But lucky you BB! No need to hold your breath long. Not hard to find – for those who take the time to look. Try it! Many – and I mean many – eyewitness reports from civilians and others right from the outset.
But first answer this: what do YOU call 14,000 dead civilians in the Donbass, pre-war? Murder? Torture? Or a “lesson in democracy”? Then answer yes or no: have you seen the OSCE reports of massively intensified shelling into Donbass by Ukraine in the 7 days leading up to the Russian SMO? (Also easy to find, and with a cool map showing where the shells were landing!).
War is hell (unless you’re American, British or West European). In which case war is hell for others far away. Go on, make a spread sheet and compare US and NATO blood trails (strikes, hot war, coups and illegal sanctions) since the 50’s versus your “Axis of Evil”. Go on now…
Which is why this war should NEVER have started. Which is why the pre-war Russian position was to do everything short of beg the West to respect their red lines on NATO expansion, and Ukraine to honour Minsk.
Get off the couch – the lot of you – and go peruse the (ratified) international security agreements dealing with the principle of “indivisibility of security”.
This war must end, and it will, but the bodies will be piled high and millions of post-war lives will be ruined because the “Moral West” cannot…will never…countenance the proposition that most of the world no longer wants what it has to sell.
An intelligent post, Peter. From Guatemala to Iran to Vietnam to Iraq, the historical evidence speaks for itself. It’s barely surprising that the non-aligned world has no interest in lining up behind ‘the West’ in its latest phoney crusade.
Sorry, the figure of “14,000” is for the ENTIRE war in 2014-15.
The Russians have just used that figure to claim it was all only after the ceasefire.
Russians always do exaggerate a tad.
An intelligent post, Peter. From Guatemala to Iran to Vietnam to Iraq, the historical evidence speaks for itself. It’s barely surprising that the non-aligned world has no interest in lining up behind ‘the West’ in its latest phoney crusade.
Sorry, the figure of “14,000” is for the ENTIRE war in 2014-15.
The Russians have just used that figure to claim it was all only after the ceasefire.
Russians always do exaggerate a tad.
Where’s the ‘evidence’ of the Russian ones, come to that? You’re just reading digital words on the screen, Billy Bob, allegedly written by someone you’re almost certainly never met, quoting the testimony of people none of us can be sure even exist.
You might have forgotten the c**k and bull the public were fed over everything from the sinking of the USS Maine to the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq WMD, the Steele dossier and ‘Russiagate’, BLM, Covid lockdowns and vaccines and the Biden laptop – but I certainly have not, and never will.
This report may or may not be true. Historians will hopefully extract truths, such as may ultimately be discovered, from the intense and layered propaganda streaming from both/all sides. Behold modern, Hybrid War.
But lucky you BB! No need to hold your breath long. Not hard to find – for those who take the time to look. Try it! Many – and I mean many – eyewitness reports from civilians and others right from the outset.
But first answer this: what do YOU call 14,000 dead civilians in the Donbass, pre-war? Murder? Torture? Or a “lesson in democracy”? Then answer yes or no: have you seen the OSCE reports of massively intensified shelling into Donbass by Ukraine in the 7 days leading up to the Russian SMO? (Also easy to find, and with a cool map showing where the shells were landing!).
War is hell (unless you’re American, British or West European). In which case war is hell for others far away. Go on, make a spread sheet and compare US and NATO blood trails (strikes, hot war, coups and illegal sanctions) since the 50’s versus your “Axis of Evil”. Go on now…
Which is why this war should NEVER have started. Which is why the pre-war Russian position was to do everything short of beg the West to respect their red lines on NATO expansion, and Ukraine to honour Minsk.
Get off the couch – the lot of you – and go peruse the (ratified) international security agreements dealing with the principle of “indivisibility of security”.
This war must end, and it will, but the bodies will be piled high and millions of post-war lives will be ruined because the “Moral West” cannot…will never…countenance the proposition that most of the world no longer wants what it has to sell.
Where’s the ‘evidence’ of the Russian ones, come to that? You’re just reading digital words on the screen, Billy Bob, allegedly written by someone you’re almost certainly never met, quoting the testimony of people none of us can be sure even exist.
You might have forgotten the c**k and bull the public were fed over everything from the sinking of the USS Maine to the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq WMD, the Steele dossier and ‘Russiagate’, BLM, Covid lockdowns and vaccines and the Biden laptop – but I certainly have not, and never will.
Yes of course, the Ukrainian invasion of Russia has indeed led to widespread torture and murder of Russian civilians! Not to mention the shelling and bombing of Russian cities into near total devastation.
Perhaps you could provide evidence of the Ukrainian torture camps that are similar to those in the article? Or even of the nerve gas you claim they’ve used? I won’t hold my breath though
Yes of course, the Ukrainian invasion of Russia has indeed led to widespread torture and murder of Russian civilians! Not to mention the shelling and bombing of Russian cities into near total devastation.
It’s not ‘propaganda’ because it is true. The language of Putin and the Russian leadership now amounts to near genocidal, Ukraine needs a ‘lustration’ for example. The call the Ukrainian leadership and an increasing proportion of the people ‘Nazis’. This is a term quite cleverly used because of its resonance in the West, but no-one cares in Putin’s clique about anti-semitism or the Holocaust – it just means any force which thinks the Ukrainians have the right to run their own affairs. Of course it is ludicrous since Far Right views are actively encouraged in Russia.
Totally agree. I must confess to not reading this report as this kind of horror is what I would expect from the dogs of war. I have read of the Ukrainians using nerve gas on Russians who died in horrendous pain. To say one side is worst than the other is not facing up to the horrors of war.
Peace talks need to be on the agenda now.
Elizabeth dSJ
1 year ago
It wouldn’t be war without atrocity propaganda.
Steve White
1 year ago
War is hell! I am so sorry this happened to these people.
Are we allowed to ask why were those men from Donetsk (part of Ukraine until this past year) so angry, so brutal and so full of vengeance against what had been their own country?
Did something happen in this part of Ukraine to them and their own families where there is now this sort of, Ukraine on Ukraine (or now former Ukrainian vs former Ukrainian violence?) What has changed is it’s now part of Russia, but did any of this sort of torture, or killing of civilians occur the other way around before then, or are we to beleive that these bad people just popped out of no where and nothing to randomly do this kind of thing?
Also, if this area becomes like Crimea, where a large majority of people polled people are happy to be part of Russia, then that would be good, right? At least now, those people in Donetsk are no longer being shelled and tormented by Azov Ukrainians, as they had been for years right?
Just showing a narrow slice of terrible information with no context that only demonizes one of the two corrupt and waring Slavic states has a one word name. It starts with P and ends with A.
Your comment is unrealistic. No reporter is going to be in a position to see both what the Russians and the Ukrainians are doing. So he can only report what he sees. And it is not his responsibility to report the complete picture. Neither is it a big or unreasonable ask for us to individually exercise our own judgement and do any additional research. So your assertion that this must be propaganda is not supported by anything you have said.
Of course, if you do have factual information about Ukrainian atrocities I’d suggest you contact UnHerd to write an article presenting that viewpoint. That’s how these things normally work. I look forward to reading it.
“Crimea, where a large majority of people polled people are happy to be part of Russia” – I must have missed that. The last time a proper referendum in Crimea on being part of Russia or Ukraine was held, in 1991, there was a majority in favour of the independence of Ukraine. If you are counting the referendum of 2014 after Russia’s invasion you are somewhat deluded about the freedom of expression allowed.
I never took the position that a reporter needed to see what both the Ukrainians and Russians were doing. I appealed to the historical context in relation to the event that followed. I will admit that most people have no clue about the recent history that would possibly lead up to the Ukrainian on Ukrainian brutality described, although some of the history of that region has already been shared in some Unherd articles and reports, especially early on in the lead up to and early days of the continuation of this war. Which, our side (the West) has already admitted really started back in 2014, and that we deceived Russia with the Minsk agreements. Anyway, unless you present something accurately in a historical context, you are misleading, and I believe it is the job of a reporter to try and convey truth. The truth is the significant historical facts and the current significant facts that don’t mislead. Otherwise, I would say it is propaganda.
“Crimea, where a large majority of people polled people are happy to be part of Russia” – I must have missed that. The last time a proper referendum in Crimea on being part of Russia or Ukraine was held, in 1991, there was a majority in favour of the independence of Ukraine. If you are counting the referendum of 2014 after Russia’s invasion you are somewhat deluded about the freedom of expression allowed.
I never took the position that a reporter needed to see what both the Ukrainians and Russians were doing. I appealed to the historical context in relation to the event that followed. I will admit that most people have no clue about the recent history that would possibly lead up to the Ukrainian on Ukrainian brutality described, although some of the history of that region has already been shared in some Unherd articles and reports, especially early on in the lead up to and early days of the continuation of this war. Which, our side (the West) has already admitted really started back in 2014, and that we deceived Russia with the Minsk agreements. Anyway, unless you present something accurately in a historical context, you are misleading, and I believe it is the job of a reporter to try and convey truth. The truth is the significant historical facts and the current significant facts that don’t mislead. Otherwise, I would say it is propaganda.
Suggestion:
It’s usually better to give actual proof for your assertions, than to ask meaningless questions, which seem to imply things you can’t, and won’t actually prove.
Your comment is unrealistic. No reporter is going to be in a position to see both what the Russians and the Ukrainians are doing. So he can only report what he sees. And it is not his responsibility to report the complete picture. Neither is it a big or unreasonable ask for us to individually exercise our own judgement and do any additional research. So your assertion that this must be propaganda is not supported by anything you have said.
Of course, if you do have factual information about Ukrainian atrocities I’d suggest you contact UnHerd to write an article presenting that viewpoint. That’s how these things normally work. I look forward to reading it.
Suggestion:
It’s usually better to give actual proof for your assertions, than to ask meaningless questions, which seem to imply things you can’t, and won’t actually prove.
Steve White
1 year ago
War is hell! I am so sorry this happened to these people.
Are we allowed to ask why were those men from Donetsk (part of Ukraine until this past year) so angry, so brutal and so full of vengeance against what had been their own country?
Did something happen in this part of Ukraine to them and their own families where there is now this sort of, Ukraine on Ukraine (or now former Ukrainian vs former Ukrainian violence?) What has changed is it’s now part of Russia, but did any of this sort of torture, or killing of civilians occur the other way around before then, or are we to beleive that these bad people just popped out of no where and nothing to randomly do this kind of thing?
Also, if this area becomes like Crimea, where a large majority of people polled people are happy to be part of Russia, then that would be good, right? At least now, those people in Donetsk are no longer being shelled and tormented by Azov Ukrainians, as they had been for years right?
Just showing a narrow slice of terrible information with no context that only demonizes one of the two corrupt and waring Slavic states has a one word name. It starts with P and ends with A.
martin logan
1 year ago
The real point is that this was all planned well in advance. It was meant to “De-Nazify” (really de-Ukrainize,) Ukraine.
This is a POLICY promoted by the Russian govt. It isn’t about what people did against an occupation force. It’s about what people ARE.
War crimes exist in every war, and one can find war criminals on every side. Traitors are also punished in every war.
And nice to “whatabout” with Abu Ghraib. But once it was revealed, it became a scandal.
This won’t be a scandal in Putin’s Russia. It will mean promotions for many in the Russian military and security services.
And that’s the difference between Ukraine and Russia.
And the NATO/US eastward expansion? The sponsorship of a highly militarised Ukrainian state hostile to Russia and Russians, including Ukrainians of Russian descent, was that not “planned well in advance?” The subsequent civil war, was that just a big surprise? The 14,000 Donbass inhabitants killed by Nazi militias; well, maybe that wasn’t intended but wasn’t it easily foreseeable? Yet for year after year Russia held back, appealing to the Minsk agreements which Western leaders have now admitted were entered into in bad faith, with Ukraine having no intention of abiding by them and the supposed guarantors in league with Ukraine? No forward planning there? Yet still Russia held its hand until it appeared that the Donbass republics were about to be attacked.
Or perhaps you reckon all this wasn’t a POLICY promoted by the USA/NATO? That’s the scandal that cries out for justice, and we may take it that plenty of those involved have been promoted by the US/NATO military and security services. I somehow don’t think there will ever be a war crimes trial for Victoria Nuland or Joe Biden.
And the NATO/US eastward expansion? The sponsorship of a highly militarised Ukrainian state hostile to Russia and Russians, including Ukrainians of Russian descent, was that not “planned well in advance?” The subsequent civil war, was that just a big surprise? The 14,000 Donbass inhabitants killed by Nazi militias; well, maybe that wasn’t intended but wasn’t it easily foreseeable? Yet for year after year Russia held back, appealing to the Minsk agreements which Western leaders have now admitted were entered into in bad faith, with Ukraine having no intention of abiding by them and the supposed guarantors in league with Ukraine? No forward planning there? Yet still Russia held its hand until it appeared that the Donbass republics were about to be attacked.
Or perhaps you reckon all this wasn’t a POLICY promoted by the USA/NATO? That’s the scandal that cries out for justice, and we may take it that plenty of those involved have been promoted by the US/NATO military and security services. I somehow don’t think there will ever be a war crimes trial for Victoria Nuland or Joe Biden.
martin logan
1 year ago
The real point is that this was all planned well in advance. It was meant to “De-Nazify” (really de-Ukrainize,) Ukraine.
This is a POLICY promoted by the Russian govt. It isn’t about what people did against an occupation force. It’s about what people ARE.
War crimes exist in every war, and one can find war criminals on every side. Traitors are also punished in every war.
And nice to “whatabout” with Abu Ghraib. But once it was revealed, it became a scandal.
This won’t be a scandal in Putin’s Russia. It will mean promotions for many in the Russian military and security services.
And that’s the difference between Ukraine and Russia.
AJ Mac
1 year ago
These are Abu Ghraib type atrocities. Perhaps worse. I would only caution against making these sadistic actions somehow characteristic of all Russians. The mentality seeping down from the top seems bloodthirsty and ruthless. Is it too convenient to see a connection to Soviet era totalitarianism and brutal practices, a Putinist revival?
Not like Abu Ghraib at all, it’s official policy from the top. And yes I’ve lived in Ukraine (which was similar then to Russia) and that region keeps replaying Soviet themes eg Russia constantly harps on about saving the world in WW2, of course it was the one big success for and affirmation of the USSR. You could argue the brutality goes back to the Mongols and Ivan the Terrible though.
And what’s your view on the US-UK ‘extraordinary rendition’ programme, the secret CIA prisons in Poland and the decade-long ‘Enhanced Interrogation’ regime on the lawless oubliette of Gitmo? Years of solitary confinement in cages, savagings by dogs, threats, sexual torture, waterboardings by the thousand – often on random individuals sold to a credulous CIA for a few thousand dollars each by chancer Afghan warlords?
Was that just ‘poor behaviour by individuals’ too?
Major difference here is that it’s directed at civilians, using very loose criteria, and overseen by drunks. It’s not just about intel gathering, it’s a deliberate terror policy, designed to cow people.
Major difference here is that it’s directed at civilians, using very loose criteria, and overseen by drunks. It’s not just about intel gathering, it’s a deliberate terror policy, designed to cow people.
And what’s your view on the US-UK ‘extraordinary rendition’ programme, the secret CIA prisons in Poland and the decade-long ‘Enhanced Interrogation’ regime on the lawless oubliette of Gitmo? Years of solitary confinement in cages, savagings by dogs, threats, sexual torture, waterboardings by the thousand – often on random individuals sold to a credulous CIA for a few thousand dollars each by chancer Afghan warlords?
Was that just ‘poor behaviour by individuals’ too?
Why go back to Ivan the terrible? Stalin starved some 6,000,000 Ukrainians to death in a single winter. The USSR destroyed some 30,000,000 (60,000,000 by some accounts) innocent lives. All this in the name of progress. The midwife of history is violence, Marx told us. Innocence will come only at the end of history, we are also told.
At its earliest Genesis is only sixth century BC, and people such as the splendid Assyrians were quite happily flaying people alive well before that, as evidence in the British Museum will show you.*
At its earliest Genesis is only sixth century BC, and people such as the splendid Assyrians were quite happily flaying people alive well before that, as evidence in the British Museum will show you.*
Ukrainiam brutality against Poles in 1939 and again in the mid 1940s is well known. Maybe goes back to Ukraine being frequently associated with the Lithuanian Tartars, those western bits of it that were not conquered and controlled by the Tartars , just like, you know Russia, of which they were a part.
Why go back to Ivan the terrible? Stalin starved some 6,000,000 Ukrainians to death in a single winter. The USSR destroyed some 30,000,000 (60,000,000 by some accounts) innocent lives. All this in the name of progress. The midwife of history is violence, Marx told us. Innocence will come only at the end of history, we are also told.
Ukrainiam brutality against Poles in 1939 and again in the mid 1940s is well known. Maybe goes back to Ukraine being frequently associated with the Lithuanian Tartars, those western bits of it that were not conquered and controlled by the Tartars , just like, you know Russia, of which they were a part.
They are surely not typical of all Russians. On the other hand, they seem to have become so embedded in Russian culture and behaviour that they are more readily accepted. True that only a minority do these things. But too many people passively accept it.
Remember also that the “bloodthirsty and ruthless” Putin regime is apparently very popular …
Here’s a simple test – is there public outrage in Moscow when people hear about these things ? Remember that there – quite rightly – was in Western countries about Abu Ghraib. That’s a critical difference.
But perhaps my question is hypothetical. It requires that Russian media and censorship actually allows this information to circulate. Again, that’s a key difference. We know about Abu Ghraib and the facts are not disuputed.
I note – and it’s very much to your credit – that you are not disputing or denying that the Russians have done these things.
I do sometimes wonder whether Russia as a country needs to undergo some sort of collective therapy to get some of this stuff out of their system.
I agree with your first paragraph.
But pathologizing the entire nation? I’m somewhat tempted to go along with you, but I think we should resist. Especially when our own society has plenty of psychosis and repressed trauma and all that. Bit of a “physician, heal thyself” situation. I would allow that American society is not as sick, but that’s coming from inside my American head, and I honestly think broad brush diagnoses, especially from afar, are unhelpful. We should go further than the labeling, and consent to self-examination too. But for a bit of online fun, what are the major Russian pathologies (among the populace) if you’ve narrowed that down?
Yes Russia is repressive and violent. Public outrage that goes beyond the dinner table is likely to result in a strange fall out of a high window. That’s why I implied and believe that Russia is more “back to Soviet” than at any time since 1992, under a leader who wants to carve out his legacy at just about any human cost.
Among nations I can think of, perhaps only China, North Korea, Cuba (quasi-Marxist dictatorships) and Singapore (very illiberal democracy) have an comparably or more oppressive state apparatus. I would estimate that only the North Korean regime and its dear sick leader rivals present-moment Russia in its aim to silence without trying to pacify or indulge its citizens a bit more. The transformative change can only come from within. Even a global cataclysm that targets Putin and “bombs Russia back to the agrarian age” won’t do the work that has to come from Russians themselves.
The US understandably does not serve as global model of inner stability and societal wellbeing right now. Perhaps we should stop regarding and selling ourselves as some prevailing or one-sided global model (we instruct, everyone else learns) for all peoples. The other side of that inflated prid
Main Edition
US
FR
This was unspeakably grim to read.
I ask myself how i would endure such circumstances. Honestly, i don’t know. But i thank Unherd for bringing it to our attention.
Can we have a report on how Americans do it?
probabaly just as badly. What’s your point?
Rosa’s point is apologetics by means of whataboutery.
I disagree Liam.Read my post above.
Rosa’s point is apologetics by means of whataboutery.
I disagree Liam.Read my post above.
They stripped them naked, savaged them with dogs, forced them to masturbate in front of hysterical nurses, then waterboarded them, and then claimed none of that is torture.
Still it was lucky they didn’t get the full ‘ Soldier Blue’ nonsense, breasts cut off, then scrapped out to make tobacco pouches etc.
I think you will find that generally the Americans don’t do it.
During World War 2 we Brits and Americans realised intelligence was gathered more efficiently by humane questioning.There will always be exceptions but this general rule applies.
German troops did not want to surrender to the Soviets but rather to the Allies.
Russia hasn’t changed and neither has its armed forces.
The Ukrainians (esp the Militias) enjoy torturing those of their countrymen with possible connections to anything Russian. It is like the worst of the Troubles in Northern Ireland multiplied many times over.
Thanks for your evidence!
Do provide your confirmed sources.
Let’s not have this “confirmed sources” midwit nonsense. We all know full well the Ukrainians have been torturing prisoners and civilians.
Let’s not have this “confirmed sources” midwit nonsense. We all know full well the Ukrainians have been torturing prisoners and civilians.
“countryman” – you mean those Ukrainians who have gone to fight for Russia, the so called L/DPR guys?
The same people that love to torture “their countryman” for being loyal to Ukraine (as Ukrainians in Ukraine)
They are traitors and quick death is the best outcome they can hope for.
Thanks for your evidence!
Do provide your confirmed sources.
“countryman” – you mean those Ukrainians who have gone to fight for Russia, the so called L/DPR guys?
The same people that love to torture “their countryman” for being loyal to Ukraine (as Ukrainians in Ukraine)
They are traitors and quick death is the best outcome they can hope for.
If you read William Blum’s book ‘Killing Hope’ (Praised by the likes of Chomsky and Vidal), you will see how the USA has trained, funded and sponsored dictatorships for decades including including indiscriminate torture and murder. I’m no Russia apologist, Russia are undoubtedly involved in a number of human rights violations but to paint the Ukrainian situation as black and white is going down the wrong path Politics is much more nuanced
The Ukrainians (esp the Militias) enjoy torturing those of their countrymen with possible connections to anything Russian. It is like the worst of the Troubles in Northern Ireland multiplied many times over.
If you read William Blum’s book ‘Killing Hope’ (Praised by the likes of Chomsky and Vidal), you will see how the USA has trained, funded and sponsored dictatorships for decades including including indiscriminate torture and murder. I’m no Russia apologist, Russia are undoubtedly involved in a number of human rights violations but to paint the Ukrainian situation as black and white is going down the wrong path Politics is much more nuanced
probabaly just as badly. What’s your point?
They stripped them naked, savaged them with dogs, forced them to masturbate in front of hysterical nurses, then waterboarded them, and then claimed none of that is torture.
Still it was lucky they didn’t get the full ‘ Soldier Blue’ nonsense, breasts cut off, then scrapped out to make tobacco pouches etc.
I think you will find that generally the Americans don’t do it.
During World War 2 we Brits and Americans realised intelligence was gathered more efficiently by humane questioning.There will always be exceptions but this general rule applies.
German troops did not want to surrender to the Soviets but rather to the Allies.
Russia hasn’t changed and neither has its armed forces.
Can we have a report on how Americans do it?
This was unspeakably grim to read.
I ask myself how i would endure such circumstances. Honestly, i don’t know. But i thank Unherd for bringing it to our attention.
This article should give anyone who does not want the West to fully arm Ukraine great pause. This is what you’re wishing on the citizens of Ukraine. This is the monstrous evil that is Russia.
This article should give anyone who does not want the West to fully arm Ukraine great pause. This is what you’re wishing on the citizens of Ukraine. This is the monstrous evil that is Russia.
Will tomorrow’s edition have coverage of the abuses on the Ukraine side? The internet is filled with photos and videos of citizens being tied to lamp posts by Ukrainian soldiers, evidently tried and convicted on the spot, and then having their pants pulled down for public humiliation. Not as bad as electroshock to your genitals of course, but one of the victims i saw was an 11 year old girl. Who knows what might be revealed if journalists actually did their jobs. Balanced reporting should tell us the whole truth. Of course then we might start to question the good guys versus the bad guys narratives being rammed down our throats every day.
I was just waiting for such a post and you’ve fulfilled. There is a difference between the invaders’ indiscriminate actions and those trying to defend their country and root out traitors. The Ukrainians are definitely no angels but they have been forced to be like this. They wouldn’t have been in this situation at all if Putin had chosen a different path.
Did i say there was no difference? I actually said quite literally the opposite. Sounds like you were waiting for a different post and just took the first slightly sceptical remark as a cue to waive your Ukrainian flag and demonstrate your mindless piety.
You didn’t. Read your post again. Insults containing “mindless” and “piety” expose your true intellect. “Ukrainian”? I do not want any more wars in Europe, my father and other relatives had to suffer WW2 and Putin has just started another one which will undoubtedly spread. To my mind the Ukrainians can do whatever is necessary to rid Europe of this cancer, but at the moment the attrocities are largely done by Russian forces.
Ok, I read my post again. The words “not as bad as” imply difference, which is the opposite of “no difference”.
Still implies the Ukrainians are nasty pieces of work. “Not as bad as electroshock to your genitals of course, but one of the victims i saw was an 11 year old girl.”
Still implies the Ukrainians are nasty pieces of work. “Not as bad as electroshock to your genitals of course, but one of the victims i saw was an 11 year old girl.”
Ok, I read my post again. The words “not as bad as” imply difference, which is the opposite of “no difference”.
You implied that there were Ukrainian atrocities out there, while using the humiliation of collaborators as somehow equivalent.
Rather like saying shaving the heads of women who fraternized with Germans was the same as Klaus Barbie torturing French people.
Truly ingenious!
You didn’t. Read your post again. Insults containing “mindless” and “piety” expose your true intellect. “Ukrainian”? I do not want any more wars in Europe, my father and other relatives had to suffer WW2 and Putin has just started another one which will undoubtedly spread. To my mind the Ukrainians can do whatever is necessary to rid Europe of this cancer, but at the moment the attrocities are largely done by Russian forces.
You implied that there were Ukrainian atrocities out there, while using the humiliation of collaborators as somehow equivalent.
Rather like saying shaving the heads of women who fraternized with Germans was the same as Klaus Barbie torturing French people.
Truly ingenious!
Not in the Geneva Conventions there isn’t. Remember, that ‘rules based international order’ that neocons are always bonging on about defending?
No one is an angel during war. That’s why war is hell.
There are huge differences, though. Violence, brutal acts, even war crimes do occur usually on both sides in a bitter war. But there is a world of difference between occasional criminal behaviour and systematic brutalization of civilians, Gestapo style, as Russia does in the territories it occupies. It also makes a big difference if such behaviour is prosecuted by the army whose members engaged in it or is being encouraged.
There are huge differences, though. Violence, brutal acts, even war crimes do occur usually on both sides in a bitter war. But there is a world of difference between occasional criminal behaviour and systematic brutalization of civilians, Gestapo style, as Russia does in the territories it occupies. It also makes a big difference if such behaviour is prosecuted by the army whose members engaged in it or is being encouraged.
Did i say there was no difference? I actually said quite literally the opposite. Sounds like you were waiting for a different post and just took the first slightly sceptical remark as a cue to waive your Ukrainian flag and demonstrate your mindless piety.
Not in the Geneva Conventions there isn’t. Remember, that ‘rules based international order’ that neocons are always bonging on about defending?
No one is an angel during war. That’s why war is hell.
As I have noted in an earlier comment, if you have factual information about these things, I encourage you to write an article for UnHerd in reply to this article and share it with us all. I look forward to reading it.
Oh Peter, I seem to have missed your article full of facts – can you please send the link? I bet there’s a Peter B in a comment section in Russia somewhere who’s smugly dismissing the possibility of Russian atrocities on the basis that he hasn’t seen it reported. That’s how propaganda works – many people just can’t wrap their heads around the possibility that they aren’t getting all the facts.
But I don’t need to post anything, do I ? I generally accept this article.
The onus is on you to produce counter-evidence. I tried to do so in a polite and encouraging manner and avoid using the phrase “put up, or shut up”. But it seems that’s not the way you like to debate.
I didn’t reject anything in this article, I only called for balance in reporting. You are therefore objecting to balance and attacking anyone who calls for it. Nothing polite or encouraging about that.
Logical fallacy there – because you think I don’t agree with you, that means I must oppose you. Simply doesn’t follow.
Read the comments again. I never objected to balance. Quite the opposite. I invited you to write a full article putting your side of the story – I will certainly support this if you ask UnHerd.
Is this something you wish to do ?
Note: interesting to note that you fully accept the article (you “reject nothing” – your exact words). So you have accepted in full the reports of atrocities documented in this article then.
Logical fallacy there – because you think I don’t agree with you, that means I must oppose you. Simply doesn’t follow.
Read the comments again. I never objected to balance. Quite the opposite. I invited you to write a full article putting your side of the story – I will certainly support this if you ask UnHerd.
Is this something you wish to do ?
Note: interesting to note that you fully accept the article (you “reject nothing” – your exact words). So you have accepted in full the reports of atrocities documented in this article then.
I didn’t reject anything in this article, I only called for balance in reporting. You are therefore objecting to balance and attacking anyone who calls for it. Nothing polite or encouraging about that.
But I don’t need to post anything, do I ? I generally accept this article.
The onus is on you to produce counter-evidence. I tried to do so in a polite and encouraging manner and avoid using the phrase “put up, or shut up”. But it seems that’s not the way you like to debate.
Oh Peter, I seem to have missed your article full of facts – can you please send the link? I bet there’s a Peter B in a comment section in Russia somewhere who’s smugly dismissing the possibility of Russian atrocities on the basis that he hasn’t seen it reported. That’s how propaganda works – many people just can’t wrap their heads around the possibility that they aren’t getting all the facts.
Fence-sitting, cloaked in priggism.
In a sense, none of what either side does is relevant.
The issue boils down to – who invaded? Who wants to eradicate its neighbour’s country? I’m on the side of the Ukrainians.
Which side are you on, mate?
Ah yes, the philosophy of George Bush and Anakin Skywalker. If you’re not with me, you’re against me. Welcome to the comment section, where nuance goes to die.
Russia doesn’t do nuance Jim.
Russia doesn’t do nuance Jim.
Ah yes, the philosophy of George Bush and Anakin Skywalker. If you’re not with me, you’re against me. Welcome to the comment section, where nuance goes to die.
Excellent point.
I have to agree . Guntanamo Bay atrocities. US/ UK invaded Afghanistan and Iraq .
War is terrible and each side ultimately resorts to torturing civilians. It’s tragic but it’s war.
Guntanamo Bay atrocities??
Was anyone killed?I remember a Morrocan national being paid £1million damages by we Brits and another who was welcomed back to the UK with open arms.
There is no equivalence between civilised countries like the UK and US and totalitarian regimes.
I believe the current estimate is that 397,000 civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan were killed in the US wars there. Civilians.
“Was anyone killed”?
Only a couple of million Iraqis, conscripts and civilians alike, who never asked for their country to be invaded by the USA on an invented and entirely false pretext (the nonexistent WMDs). Russia will have to commit a lot more atrocities to catch up with that record. But these victims were not white so maybe they don’t count?
I wonder what the source of information about these Russian “atrocities”.is It couldn’t just be the propaganda arm of the Ukrainian government, could it? Or some of the many “independent” bodies that are funded by the CIA?
Whatever, we may hope that there will be a war crimes trial after this war is over, and some genuinely independent body can set about the task of separating truth from propaganda.
There has already been a comprehensive report of war crimes in Ukraine by Amnesty International. These include numerous instances of the use of torture as well as the widespread use of civilians as human shields. These atrocities were committed by the Ukrainian side, and the report has conveniently been forgotten by our Fourth Estate.
I believe the current estimate is that 397,000 civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan were killed in the US wars there. Civilians.
“Was anyone killed”?
Only a couple of million Iraqis, conscripts and civilians alike, who never asked for their country to be invaded by the USA on an invented and entirely false pretext (the nonexistent WMDs). Russia will have to commit a lot more atrocities to catch up with that record. But these victims were not white so maybe they don’t count?
I wonder what the source of information about these Russian “atrocities”.is It couldn’t just be the propaganda arm of the Ukrainian government, could it? Or some of the many “independent” bodies that are funded by the CIA?
Whatever, we may hope that there will be a war crimes trial after this war is over, and some genuinely independent body can set about the task of separating truth from propaganda.
There has already been a comprehensive report of war crimes in Ukraine by Amnesty International. These include numerous instances of the use of torture as well as the widespread use of civilians as human shields. These atrocities were committed by the Ukrainian side, and the report has conveniently been forgotten by our Fourth Estate.
Guntanamo Bay atrocities??
Was anyone killed?I remember a Morrocan national being paid £1million damages by we Brits and another who was welcomed back to the UK with open arms.
There is no equivalence between civilised countries like the UK and US and totalitarian regimes.
Jim.
Think Bucha where 80 year old grandmothers were raped.
The Russians are the bad guys and yes I’m sure there are some bad Ukrainians.We all like to think we would not lose our moral compasses but when Russia is committing war crimes on a daily basis ie targeting civilians it must be very hard not to behave badly in some circumstances.
This isn’t “good guys vs bad guys.”
It’s insuring that people who do cold, calculated things like this don’t get a chance to do it anywhere else.
Like where you live.
I was just waiting for such a post and you’ve fulfilled. There is a difference between the invaders’ indiscriminate actions and those trying to defend their country and root out traitors. The Ukrainians are definitely no angels but they have been forced to be like this. They wouldn’t have been in this situation at all if Putin had chosen a different path.
As I have noted in an earlier comment, if you have factual information about these things, I encourage you to write an article for UnHerd in reply to this article and share it with us all. I look forward to reading it.
Fence-sitting, cloaked in priggism.
In a sense, none of what either side does is relevant.
The issue boils down to – who invaded? Who wants to eradicate its neighbour’s country? I’m on the side of the Ukrainians.
Which side are you on, mate?
Excellent point.
I have to agree . Guntanamo Bay atrocities. US/ UK invaded Afghanistan and Iraq .
War is terrible and each side ultimately resorts to torturing civilians. It’s tragic but it’s war.
Jim.
Think Bucha where 80 year old grandmothers were raped.
The Russians are the bad guys and yes I’m sure there are some bad Ukrainians.We all like to think we would not lose our moral compasses but when Russia is committing war crimes on a daily basis ie targeting civilians it must be very hard not to behave badly in some circumstances.
This isn’t “good guys vs bad guys.”
It’s insuring that people who do cold, calculated things like this don’t get a chance to do it anywhere else.
Like where you live.
Will tomorrow’s edition have coverage of the abuses on the Ukraine side? The internet is filled with photos and videos of citizens being tied to lamp posts by Ukrainian soldiers, evidently tried and convicted on the spot, and then having their pants pulled down for public humiliation. Not as bad as electroshock to your genitals of course, but one of the victims i saw was an 11 year old girl. Who knows what might be revealed if journalists actually did their jobs. Balanced reporting should tell us the whole truth. Of course then we might start to question the good guys versus the bad guys narratives being rammed down our throats every day.
We saw a lot of this kind of stuff from both sides. Idiots who blindly believe either of them. And BTW the author is known to be severely biased. Verdict: POS.
I would be inclined to agree as there are quite a few inconsistencies in this piece.
Will the Reckoning Project investigate war crimes and atrocities committed by the Ukrainian armed forces? Or is its purpose similar to that of the writer of this piece, to provide propaganda ensuring continued financial support and armament for Ukraine to continue this horrendous war.
Sooner or later this war will end either in nuclear war or all parties sitting down and talking. There aren’t ANY other alternatives. Russia can’t lose and Ukraine will never surrender. It’s just a matter of how many hundreds of thousands of people are going to die before it’s resolved.
It’s all just utterly depressing.
So we’ll just surrender shall we?
We’re not at war.
Oh yes we are
Oh yes we are
We aren’t a combatant so how could we surrender?
By supporting the Russian government, which seems to be trolling well on here
By supporting the Russian government, which seems to be trolling well on here
We’re not at war.
We aren’t a combatant so how could we surrender?
We didn’t talk to Hitler.
“We didn’t talk to ” is that so? Most of the European powers had treaties with H, no? What about Munich’38 ? Still doesn’t ring a bell? I watched the documentary about Olympic games in 1936 by that German filmmaker Leni Rlfdhgklhdfgh (I’m bad with names, sorry). Team after team were marching with N** salute showing how they don’t talk to the guy. (British and American teams gave a military salute, not a N* style) You know which team was not there? Russian.
Most European powers *did not* have treaties with Hitler. The only one I know of is the Soviet Union (the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). So your pretence that “Russia” (the Soviet Union in those days) was “whiter than white” just won’t wash (they also invaded Poland in 1939, just to top it off).
Munich 1938 was certainly not a “treaty”.
Please do correct me if I’m mistaken !
You are correct, Munich was an AGREEMENT.
You are correct, Munich was an AGREEMENT.
Leni Riefenstahl.
thank you, that’s her.
thank you, that’s her.
However in May 1938 at the England v Germany football match, held in the Berlin Olympic Stadium the English team did give the N*zi Salute at the start of the game.*
(* We won 6-3.)
Most European powers *did not* have treaties with Hitler. The only one I know of is the Soviet Union (the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). So your pretence that “Russia” (the Soviet Union in those days) was “whiter than white” just won’t wash (they also invaded Poland in 1939, just to top it off).
Munich 1938 was certainly not a “treaty”.
Please do correct me if I’m mistaken !
Leni Riefenstahl.
However in May 1938 at the England v Germany football match, held in the Berlin Olympic Stadium the English team did give the N*zi Salute at the start of the game.*
(* We won 6-3.)
“We didn’t talk to ” is that so? Most of the European powers had treaties with H, no? What about Munich’38 ? Still doesn’t ring a bell? I watched the documentary about Olympic games in 1936 by that German filmmaker Leni Rlfdhgklhdfgh (I’m bad with names, sorry). Team after team were marching with N** salute showing how they don’t talk to the guy. (British and American teams gave a military salute, not a N* style) You know which team was not there? Russian.
Russia seems to be losing quite well.
Zero gains, and the rasputitsa is starting.
But I’m sure that WW2 doc you saw a decade ago, with all the Siberian ski troops attacking in the midst of winter, means Stalin…I mean Putin…can’t lose.
So we’ll just surrender shall we?
We didn’t talk to Hitler.
Russia seems to be losing quite well.
Zero gains, and the rasputitsa is starting.
But I’m sure that WW2 doc you saw a decade ago, with all the Siberian ski troops attacking in the midst of winter, means Stalin…I mean Putin…can’t lose.
I would be inclined to agree as there are quite a few inconsistencies in this piece.
Will the Reckoning Project investigate war crimes and atrocities committed by the Ukrainian armed forces? Or is its purpose similar to that of the writer of this piece, to provide propaganda ensuring continued financial support and armament for Ukraine to continue this horrendous war.
Sooner or later this war will end either in nuclear war or all parties sitting down and talking. There aren’t ANY other alternatives. Russia can’t lose and Ukraine will never surrender. It’s just a matter of how many hundreds of thousands of people are going to die before it’s resolved.
It’s all just utterly depressing.
We saw a lot of this kind of stuff from both sides. Idiots who blindly believe either of them. And BTW the author is known to be severely biased. Verdict: POS.
I’m beginning to see some real panic among those who hope this will end with a “draw,” i.e. allow Putin to keep some of his gains since last year.
Fact is, he’s expended most of his mobiks for zero gains. The idea was to rev up the Russians back home with tales of bravery and conquest.
Instead, because he worked 20 years to insure that the masses would never come out on to the street like they did in 1991 and 2012, there is zero active support for the war.
Turn people into couch potatoes and they become…couch potatoes.
–Now the muddy season–the rasputitsa–is starting. No offensives will be possible for at least two months.
–The Ukrainians aren’t frozen or starved.
–No general Russian mobilization, because Putin knows that’s the one thing that will threaten his regime.
–And when the ground gets dry again, the Ukrainians will have their Leopards and long range missiles.
A democracy beating a dictatorship?
What a horrible prospect!
I’m beginning to see some real panic among those who hope this will end with a “draw,” i.e. allow Putin to keep some of his gains since last year.
Fact is, he’s expended most of his mobiks for zero gains. The idea was to rev up the Russians back home with tales of bravery and conquest.
Instead, because he worked 20 years to insure that the masses would never come out on to the street like they did in 1991 and 2012, there is zero active support for the war.
Turn people into couch potatoes and they become…couch potatoes.
–Now the muddy season–the rasputitsa–is starting. No offensives will be possible for at least two months.
–The Ukrainians aren’t frozen or starved.
–No general Russian mobilization, because Putin knows that’s the one thing that will threaten his regime.
–And when the ground gets dry again, the Ukrainians will have their Leopards and long range missiles.
A democracy beating a dictatorship?
What a horrible prospect!
Standard Operating Procedure in Dictatorships. Robert was keen on doing it too.
Standard Operating Procedure in Dictatorships. Robert was keen on doing it too.
It wouldn’t be war without atrocity propaganda.
It’s not ‘propaganda’ because it is true. The language of Putin and the Russian leadership now amounts to near genocidal, Ukraine needs a ‘lustration’ for example. The call the Ukrainian leadership and an increasing proportion of the people ‘Nazis’. This is a term quite cleverly used because of its resonance in the West, but no-one cares in Putin’s clique about anti-semitism or the Holocaust – it just means any force which thinks the Ukrainians have the right to run their own affairs. Of course it is ludicrous since Far Right views are actively encouraged in Russia.
The best propaganda’s based on truth! Always has been.
“because it is true”
That’s what she said!
Every war the west propagandises has alleged major atrocities that turn out to be false. The evidence here is from the same people who gave us WMD, Syrian chemical attacks, Benghazi raids, and so on.
That doesn’t mean it is false, it does mean that it’s suspect.
And bayoneted Kuwaiti children in Iraq war I
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
And then BBQ’d rather like Belgium babies and ‘The Hun’ in 1914.
And then BBQ’d rather like Belgium babies and ‘The Hun’ in 1914.
Unfortunately, the idea that we might seek balance, and irrefutable evidence about claims made during conflicts, has long since been thrown in the bin. I’d have thought we’d have learnt to be more discerning after all the lies told about Germans crucifying our boys during WW1.
Ever heard of “barrel bombs” in Syria?
Or the constant attempts by Russia to freeze all Ukrainians?
And a thousand bodies with marks of torture all over them is not “suspect evidence.”
And bayoneted Kuwaiti children in Iraq war I
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
Unfortunately, the idea that we might seek balance, and irrefutable evidence about claims made during conflicts, has long since been thrown in the bin. I’d have thought we’d have learnt to be more discerning after all the lies told about Germans crucifying our boys during WW1.
Ever heard of “barrel bombs” in Syria?
Or the constant attempts by Russia to freeze all Ukrainians?
And a thousand bodies with marks of torture all over them is not “suspect evidence.”
Of course they care about Naziism Andrew , it killed millions of them and was designed to replace all Russians to the east.
Molotov Ribbentrop Pact seemed to suit Stalin very well.
Stalin was interested in saving his own skin he wasn’t bothered about the Russian populace.
Molotov Ribbentrop Pact seemed to suit Stalin very well.
Stalin was interested in saving his own skin he wasn’t bothered about the Russian populace.
To quote George Orwell:
‘All propaganda’s lying, whether mine or yours.
It’s lying even when the facts are true.’
The lying consists in the one-sidedness of the reporting, the inflation of one side’s crimes and the total lack of interest in acknowledging the other’s. Bias by omission.
We see it all over the modern MSM now, whether on climate, immigration, crime, housing, LGBTQPZ++?? or a host of other issues: if a story can’t be twisted to aid the Blackrock-WEF cosmo-liberal agenda, it simply isn’t reported at all.
So you’re saying western allied propaganda was equivalent to Nazi propaganda?
Think there were a few differences.
So you’re saying western allied propaganda was equivalent to Nazi propaganda?
Think there were a few differences.
The best propaganda’s based on truth! Always has been.
“because it is true”
That’s what she said!
Every war the west propagandises has alleged major atrocities that turn out to be false. The evidence here is from the same people who gave us WMD, Syrian chemical attacks, Benghazi raids, and so on.
That doesn’t mean it is false, it does mean that it’s suspect.
Of course they care about Naziism Andrew , it killed millions of them and was designed to replace all Russians to the east.
To quote George Orwell:
‘All propaganda’s lying, whether mine or yours.
It’s lying even when the facts are true.’
The lying consists in the one-sidedness of the reporting, the inflation of one side’s crimes and the total lack of interest in acknowledging the other’s. Bias by omission.
We see it all over the modern MSM now, whether on climate, immigration, crime, housing, LGBTQPZ++?? or a host of other issues: if a story can’t be twisted to aid the Blackrock-WEF cosmo-liberal agenda, it simply isn’t reported at all.
go away bot
Totally agree. I must confess to not reading this report as this kind of horror is what I would expect from the dogs of war. I have read of the Ukrainians using nerve gas on Russians who died in horrendous pain. To say one side is worst than the other is not facing up to the horrors of war.
Peace talks need to be on the agenda now.
Perhaps you could provide evidence of the Ukrainian torture camps that are similar to those in the article? Or even of the nerve gas you claim they’ve used? I won’t hold my breath though
I think it was CS gas, there are videos on twitter if you don’t believe it, not hard to find
The neocons are getting desperate because the Russians are winning, I expect more propaganda
I certainly expect you will spew out more propaganda …
You are aware that photographs and videos are easily faked these days ?
Quite, but given their decades of experience, I would expect the CIA and their galaxy of supporting acts to be somewhat better at it than the Russians.
Are you aware that the article above might be wholly untrue?
But that’s not the case is it ?
Randomly picking an undisputed fact from the text:
“After the 2014 occupation of Crimea and the Donbas”.
Which never happened. Where were the thousands of Russian soldiers? Why did Poroshenko cut off pensions and medicines to win, neither of which measures was likely to affect Russian troops? Maybe you are thinking of the Crimea.
Which never happened. Where were the thousands of Russian soldiers? Why did Poroshenko cut off pensions and medicines to win, neither of which measures was likely to affect Russian troops? Maybe you are thinking of the Crimea.
But that’s not the case is it ?
Randomly picking an undisputed fact from the text:
“After the 2014 occupation of Crimea and the Donbas”.
Quite, but given their decades of experience, I would expect the CIA and their galaxy of supporting acts to be somewhat better at it than the Russians.
Are you aware that the article above might be wholly untrue?
CS gas is hardly the same as nerve had!
As a former major user of CS gas I can assure you that it is VERY effective when used correctly, as I am sure Mr McCusker for one will verify
As a former major user of CS gas I can assure you that it is VERY effective when used correctly, as I am sure Mr McCusker for one will verify
There’s a world of difference between CS gas and nerve gas. The fact you’ve downgraded it to such an extent already implies your stories aren’t too trustworthy in my eyes
I certainly expect you will spew out more propaganda …
You are aware that photographs and videos are easily faked these days ?
CS gas is hardly the same as nerve had!
There’s a world of difference between CS gas and nerve gas. The fact you’ve downgraded it to such an extent already implies your stories aren’t too trustworthy in my eyes
This report may or may not be true. Historians will hopefully extract truths, such as may ultimately be discovered, from the intense and layered propaganda streaming from both/all sides. Behold modern, Hybrid War.
But lucky you BB! No need to hold your breath long. Not hard to find – for those who take the time to look. Try it! Many – and I mean many – eyewitness reports from civilians and others right from the outset.
But first answer this: what do YOU call 14,000 dead civilians in the Donbass, pre-war? Murder? Torture? Or a “lesson in democracy”? Then answer yes or no: have you seen the OSCE reports of massively intensified shelling into Donbass by Ukraine in the 7 days leading up to the Russian SMO? (Also easy to find, and with a cool map showing where the shells were landing!).
War is hell (unless you’re American, British or West European). In which case war is hell for others far away. Go on, make a spread sheet and compare US and NATO blood trails (strikes, hot war, coups and illegal sanctions) since the 50’s versus your “Axis of Evil”. Go on now…
Which is why this war should NEVER have started. Which is why the pre-war Russian position was to do everything short of beg the West to respect their red lines on NATO expansion, and Ukraine to honour Minsk.
Get off the couch – the lot of you – and go peruse the (ratified) international security agreements dealing with the principle of “indivisibility of security”.
This war must end, and it will, but the bodies will be piled high and millions of post-war lives will be ruined because the “Moral West” cannot…will never…countenance the proposition that most of the world no longer wants what it has to sell.
An intelligent post, Peter. From Guatemala to Iran to Vietnam to Iraq, the historical evidence speaks for itself. It’s barely surprising that the non-aligned world has no interest in lining up behind ‘the West’ in its latest phoney crusade.
Yes, most of it is true, but I would just like to add that the neocons are NOT the West
A better West is possible, but first we need to remove the neocons from all positions of power and influence, then progress can happen
Yes, most of it is true, but I would just like to add that the neocons are NOT the West
A better West is possible, but first we need to remove the neocons from all positions of power and influence, then progress can happen
Sorry, the figure of “14,000” is for the ENTIRE war in 2014-15.
The Russians have just used that figure to claim it was all only after the ceasefire.
Russians always do exaggerate a tad.
An intelligent post, Peter. From Guatemala to Iran to Vietnam to Iraq, the historical evidence speaks for itself. It’s barely surprising that the non-aligned world has no interest in lining up behind ‘the West’ in its latest phoney crusade.
Sorry, the figure of “14,000” is for the ENTIRE war in 2014-15.
The Russians have just used that figure to claim it was all only after the ceasefire.
Russians always do exaggerate a tad.
Where’s the ‘evidence’ of the Russian ones, come to that? You’re just reading digital words on the screen, Billy Bob, allegedly written by someone you’re almost certainly never met, quoting the testimony of people none of us can be sure even exist.
You might have forgotten the c**k and bull the public were fed over everything from the sinking of the USS Maine to the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq WMD, the Steele dossier and ‘Russiagate’, BLM, Covid lockdowns and vaccines and the Biden laptop – but I certainly have not, and never will.
But somehow I think the Russian invasion was and is quite real.
But somehow I think the Russian invasion was and is quite real.
There is no “evidence” provided in the article, merely assertions.Just saying.
I think it was CS gas, there are videos on twitter if you don’t believe it, not hard to find
The neocons are getting desperate because the Russians are winning, I expect more propaganda
This report may or may not be true. Historians will hopefully extract truths, such as may ultimately be discovered, from the intense and layered propaganda streaming from both/all sides. Behold modern, Hybrid War.
But lucky you BB! No need to hold your breath long. Not hard to find – for those who take the time to look. Try it! Many – and I mean many – eyewitness reports from civilians and others right from the outset.
But first answer this: what do YOU call 14,000 dead civilians in the Donbass, pre-war? Murder? Torture? Or a “lesson in democracy”? Then answer yes or no: have you seen the OSCE reports of massively intensified shelling into Donbass by Ukraine in the 7 days leading up to the Russian SMO? (Also easy to find, and with a cool map showing where the shells were landing!).
War is hell (unless you’re American, British or West European). In which case war is hell for others far away. Go on, make a spread sheet and compare US and NATO blood trails (strikes, hot war, coups and illegal sanctions) since the 50’s versus your “Axis of Evil”. Go on now…
Which is why this war should NEVER have started. Which is why the pre-war Russian position was to do everything short of beg the West to respect their red lines on NATO expansion, and Ukraine to honour Minsk.
Get off the couch – the lot of you – and go peruse the (ratified) international security agreements dealing with the principle of “indivisibility of security”.
This war must end, and it will, but the bodies will be piled high and millions of post-war lives will be ruined because the “Moral West” cannot…will never…countenance the proposition that most of the world no longer wants what it has to sell.
Where’s the ‘evidence’ of the Russian ones, come to that? You’re just reading digital words on the screen, Billy Bob, allegedly written by someone you’re almost certainly never met, quoting the testimony of people none of us can be sure even exist.
You might have forgotten the c**k and bull the public were fed over everything from the sinking of the USS Maine to the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq WMD, the Steele dossier and ‘Russiagate’, BLM, Covid lockdowns and vaccines and the Biden laptop – but I certainly have not, and never will.
There is no “evidence” provided in the article, merely assertions.Just saying.
Yes of course, the Ukrainian invasion of Russia has indeed led to widespread torture and murder of Russian civilians! Not to mention the shelling and bombing of Russian cities into near total devastation.
You naive clot
Perhaps you could provide evidence of the Ukrainian torture camps that are similar to those in the article? Or even of the nerve gas you claim they’ve used? I won’t hold my breath though
Yes of course, the Ukrainian invasion of Russia has indeed led to widespread torture and murder of Russian civilians! Not to mention the shelling and bombing of Russian cities into near total devastation.
You naive clot
It’s not ‘propaganda’ because it is true. The language of Putin and the Russian leadership now amounts to near genocidal, Ukraine needs a ‘lustration’ for example. The call the Ukrainian leadership and an increasing proportion of the people ‘Nazis’. This is a term quite cleverly used because of its resonance in the West, but no-one cares in Putin’s clique about anti-semitism or the Holocaust – it just means any force which thinks the Ukrainians have the right to run their own affairs. Of course it is ludicrous since Far Right views are actively encouraged in Russia.
go away bot
Totally agree. I must confess to not reading this report as this kind of horror is what I would expect from the dogs of war. I have read of the Ukrainians using nerve gas on Russians who died in horrendous pain. To say one side is worst than the other is not facing up to the horrors of war.
Peace talks need to be on the agenda now.
It wouldn’t be war without atrocity propaganda.
War is hell! I am so sorry this happened to these people.
Are we allowed to ask why were those men from Donetsk (part of Ukraine until this past year) so angry, so brutal and so full of vengeance against what had been their own country?
Did something happen in this part of Ukraine to them and their own families where there is now this sort of, Ukraine on Ukraine (or now former Ukrainian vs former Ukrainian violence?) What has changed is it’s now part of Russia, but did any of this sort of torture, or killing of civilians occur the other way around before then, or are we to beleive that these bad people just popped out of no where and nothing to randomly do this kind of thing?
Also, if this area becomes like Crimea, where a large majority of people polled people are happy to be part of Russia, then that would be good, right? At least now, those people in Donetsk are no longer being shelled and tormented by Azov Ukrainians, as they had been for years right?
Just showing a narrow slice of terrible information with no context that only demonizes one of the two corrupt and waring Slavic states has a one word name. It starts with P and ends with A.
Your comment is unrealistic. No reporter is going to be in a position to see both what the Russians and the Ukrainians are doing. So he can only report what he sees. And it is not his responsibility to report the complete picture. Neither is it a big or unreasonable ask for us to individually exercise our own judgement and do any additional research. So your assertion that this must be propaganda is not supported by anything you have said.
Of course, if you do have factual information about Ukrainian atrocities I’d suggest you contact UnHerd to write an article presenting that viewpoint. That’s how these things normally work. I look forward to reading it.
“Crimea, where a large majority of people polled people are happy to be part of Russia” – I must have missed that. The last time a proper referendum in Crimea on being part of Russia or Ukraine was held, in 1991, there was a majority in favour of the independence of Ukraine. If you are counting the referendum of 2014 after Russia’s invasion you are somewhat deluded about the freedom of expression allowed.
I think you must be replying to a different comment.
correct – it was Steve White
correct – it was Steve White
https://twitter.com/DavidSacks/status/1631052325266632705?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1631052325266632705%7Ctwgr%5Ec0903ab60a0664f97a4ae739aa2cf197a821d6ad%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fgeopolitical%2Fmsnbc-reporter-goes-crimea-shocks-viewers-telling-truth
By the way, this reporter was put on the Ukrainian hit list for reporting the truth about Crimea. Anything that doesn’t fit the narrative must be crushed.
Slightly lost – is that something justifying your assertion about referenda in Crimea?
Slightly lost – is that something justifying your assertion about referenda in Crimea?
A “proper” referendum being one with the result you like?
You’re a Remainer, I presume…
I think you must be replying to a different comment.
https://twitter.com/DavidSacks/status/1631052325266632705?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1631052325266632705%7Ctwgr%5Ec0903ab60a0664f97a4ae739aa2cf197a821d6ad%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fgeopolitical%2Fmsnbc-reporter-goes-crimea-shocks-viewers-telling-truth
By the way, this reporter was put on the Ukrainian hit list for reporting the truth about Crimea. Anything that doesn’t fit the narrative must be crushed.
A “proper” referendum being one with the result you like?
You’re a Remainer, I presume…
I never took the position that a reporter needed to see what both the Ukrainians and Russians were doing. I appealed to the historical context in relation to the event that followed. I will admit that most people have no clue about the recent history that would possibly lead up to the Ukrainian on Ukrainian brutality described, although some of the history of that region has already been shared in some Unherd articles and reports, especially early on in the lead up to and early days of the continuation of this war. Which, our side (the West) has already admitted really started back in 2014, and that we deceived Russia with the Minsk agreements. Anyway, unless you present something accurately in a historical context, you are misleading, and I believe it is the job of a reporter to try and convey truth. The truth is the significant historical facts and the current significant facts that don’t mislead. Otherwise, I would say it is propaganda.
“Crimea, where a large majority of people polled people are happy to be part of Russia” – I must have missed that. The last time a proper referendum in Crimea on being part of Russia or Ukraine was held, in 1991, there was a majority in favour of the independence of Ukraine. If you are counting the referendum of 2014 after Russia’s invasion you are somewhat deluded about the freedom of expression allowed.
I never took the position that a reporter needed to see what both the Ukrainians and Russians were doing. I appealed to the historical context in relation to the event that followed. I will admit that most people have no clue about the recent history that would possibly lead up to the Ukrainian on Ukrainian brutality described, although some of the history of that region has already been shared in some Unherd articles and reports, especially early on in the lead up to and early days of the continuation of this war. Which, our side (the West) has already admitted really started back in 2014, and that we deceived Russia with the Minsk agreements. Anyway, unless you present something accurately in a historical context, you are misleading, and I believe it is the job of a reporter to try and convey truth. The truth is the significant historical facts and the current significant facts that don’t mislead. Otherwise, I would say it is propaganda.
Suggestion:
It’s usually better to give actual proof for your assertions, than to ask meaningless questions, which seem to imply things you can’t, and won’t actually prove.
Your comment is unrealistic. No reporter is going to be in a position to see both what the Russians and the Ukrainians are doing. So he can only report what he sees. And it is not his responsibility to report the complete picture. Neither is it a big or unreasonable ask for us to individually exercise our own judgement and do any additional research. So your assertion that this must be propaganda is not supported by anything you have said.
Of course, if you do have factual information about Ukrainian atrocities I’d suggest you contact UnHerd to write an article presenting that viewpoint. That’s how these things normally work. I look forward to reading it.
Suggestion:
It’s usually better to give actual proof for your assertions, than to ask meaningless questions, which seem to imply things you can’t, and won’t actually prove.
War is hell! I am so sorry this happened to these people.
Are we allowed to ask why were those men from Donetsk (part of Ukraine until this past year) so angry, so brutal and so full of vengeance against what had been their own country?
Did something happen in this part of Ukraine to them and their own families where there is now this sort of, Ukraine on Ukraine (or now former Ukrainian vs former Ukrainian violence?) What has changed is it’s now part of Russia, but did any of this sort of torture, or killing of civilians occur the other way around before then, or are we to beleive that these bad people just popped out of no where and nothing to randomly do this kind of thing?
Also, if this area becomes like Crimea, where a large majority of people polled people are happy to be part of Russia, then that would be good, right? At least now, those people in Donetsk are no longer being shelled and tormented by Azov Ukrainians, as they had been for years right?
Just showing a narrow slice of terrible information with no context that only demonizes one of the two corrupt and waring Slavic states has a one word name. It starts with P and ends with A.
The real point is that this was all planned well in advance. It was meant to “De-Nazify” (really de-Ukrainize,) Ukraine.
This is a POLICY promoted by the Russian govt. It isn’t about what people did against an occupation force. It’s about what people ARE.
War crimes exist in every war, and one can find war criminals on every side. Traitors are also punished in every war.
And nice to “whatabout” with Abu Ghraib. But once it was revealed, it became a scandal.
This won’t be a scandal in Putin’s Russia. It will mean promotions for many in the Russian military and security services.
And that’s the difference between Ukraine and Russia.
And the NATO/US eastward expansion? The sponsorship of a highly militarised Ukrainian state hostile to Russia and Russians, including Ukrainians of Russian descent, was that not “planned well in advance?” The subsequent civil war, was that just a big surprise? The 14,000 Donbass inhabitants killed by Nazi militias; well, maybe that wasn’t intended but wasn’t it easily foreseeable? Yet for year after year Russia held back, appealing to the Minsk agreements which Western leaders have now admitted were entered into in bad faith, with Ukraine having no intention of abiding by them and the supposed guarantors in league with Ukraine? No forward planning there? Yet still Russia held its hand until it appeared that the Donbass republics were about to be attacked.
Or perhaps you reckon all this wasn’t a POLICY promoted by the USA/NATO? That’s the scandal that cries out for justice, and we may take it that plenty of those involved have been promoted by the US/NATO military and security services. I somehow don’t think there will ever be a war crimes trial for Victoria Nuland or Joe Biden.
And the NATO/US eastward expansion? The sponsorship of a highly militarised Ukrainian state hostile to Russia and Russians, including Ukrainians of Russian descent, was that not “planned well in advance?” The subsequent civil war, was that just a big surprise? The 14,000 Donbass inhabitants killed by Nazi militias; well, maybe that wasn’t intended but wasn’t it easily foreseeable? Yet for year after year Russia held back, appealing to the Minsk agreements which Western leaders have now admitted were entered into in bad faith, with Ukraine having no intention of abiding by them and the supposed guarantors in league with Ukraine? No forward planning there? Yet still Russia held its hand until it appeared that the Donbass republics were about to be attacked.
Or perhaps you reckon all this wasn’t a POLICY promoted by the USA/NATO? That’s the scandal that cries out for justice, and we may take it that plenty of those involved have been promoted by the US/NATO military and security services. I somehow don’t think there will ever be a war crimes trial for Victoria Nuland or Joe Biden.
The real point is that this was all planned well in advance. It was meant to “De-Nazify” (really de-Ukrainize,) Ukraine.
This is a POLICY promoted by the Russian govt. It isn’t about what people did against an occupation force. It’s about what people ARE.
War crimes exist in every war, and one can find war criminals on every side. Traitors are also punished in every war.
And nice to “whatabout” with Abu Ghraib. But once it was revealed, it became a scandal.
This won’t be a scandal in Putin’s Russia. It will mean promotions for many in the Russian military and security services.
And that’s the difference between Ukraine and Russia.
These are Abu Ghraib type atrocities. Perhaps worse. I would only caution against making these sadistic actions somehow characteristic of all Russians. The mentality seeping down from the top seems bloodthirsty and ruthless. Is it too convenient to see a connection to Soviet era totalitarianism and brutal practices, a Putinist revival?
Not like Abu Ghraib at all, it’s official policy from the top. And yes I’ve lived in Ukraine (which was similar then to Russia) and that region keeps replaying Soviet themes eg Russia constantly harps on about saving the world in WW2, of course it was the one big success for and affirmation of the USSR. You could argue the brutality goes back to the Mongols and Ivan the Terrible though.
So you see these Russian abuses as something incomparably worse than what occurred at Abu Ghraib?
Not worse, but more systemic. Abu Ghraib was poor behaviour by individuals, whereas this seems much more of a top down policy
And what’s your view on the US-UK ‘extraordinary rendition’ programme, the secret CIA prisons in Poland and the decade-long ‘Enhanced Interrogation’ regime on the lawless oubliette of Gitmo? Years of solitary confinement in cages, savagings by dogs, threats, sexual torture, waterboardings by the thousand – often on random individuals sold to a credulous CIA for a few thousand dollars each by chancer Afghan warlords?
Was that just ‘poor behaviour by individuals’ too?
Major difference here is that it’s directed at civilians, using very loose criteria, and overseen by drunks. It’s not just about intel gathering, it’s a deliberate terror policy, designed to cow people.
Major difference here is that it’s directed at civilians, using very loose criteria, and overseen by drunks. It’s not just about intel gathering, it’s a deliberate terror policy, designed to cow people.
“seems” is not “is”
We should not base our discernment on feelings.
As you like to say, “do you have evidence of this” top down policy? Perhaps a field manual, replete with diagrams on where to place the electrodes?
Nonsense, that pugnacious buffoon the late Donald Rumsfeld and his moronic chief, Bush Jnr fully endorsed the barbarism of Abu Ghraib.
As before the ‘Nuremberg Defence’ will not do.
And what’s your view on the US-UK ‘extraordinary rendition’ programme, the secret CIA prisons in Poland and the decade-long ‘Enhanced Interrogation’ regime on the lawless oubliette of Gitmo? Years of solitary confinement in cages, savagings by dogs, threats, sexual torture, waterboardings by the thousand – often on random individuals sold to a credulous CIA for a few thousand dollars each by chancer Afghan warlords?
Was that just ‘poor behaviour by individuals’ too?
“seems” is not “is”
We should not base our discernment on feelings.
As you like to say, “do you have evidence of this” top down policy? Perhaps a field manual, replete with diagrams on where to place the electrodes?
Nonsense, that pugnacious buffoon the late Donald Rumsfeld and his moronic chief, Bush Jnr fully endorsed the barbarism of Abu Ghraib.
As before the ‘Nuremberg Defence’ will not do.
Not worse, but more systemic. Abu Ghraib was poor behaviour by individuals, whereas this seems much more of a top down policy
Why go back to Ivan the terrible? Stalin starved some 6,000,000 Ukrainians to death in a single winter. The USSR destroyed some 30,000,000 (60,000,000 by some accounts) innocent lives. All this in the name of progress. The midwife of history is violence, Marx told us. Innocence will come only at the end of history, we are also told.
Brutality goes further back. To the book of Genesis.
At its earliest Genesis is only sixth century BC, and people such as the splendid Assyrians were quite happily flaying people alive well before that, as evidence in the British Museum will show you.*
(* If it’s not on strike.)
At its earliest Genesis is only sixth century BC, and people such as the splendid Assyrians were quite happily flaying people alive well before that, as evidence in the British Museum will show you.*
(* If it’s not on strike.)
Ukrainiam brutality against Poles in 1939 and again in the mid 1940s is well known. Maybe goes back to Ukraine being frequently associated with the Lithuanian Tartars, those western bits of it that were not conquered and controlled by the Tartars , just like, you know Russia, of which they were a part.
So you see these Russian abuses as something incomparably worse than what occurred at Abu Ghraib?
Why go back to Ivan the terrible? Stalin starved some 6,000,000 Ukrainians to death in a single winter. The USSR destroyed some 30,000,000 (60,000,000 by some accounts) innocent lives. All this in the name of progress. The midwife of history is violence, Marx told us. Innocence will come only at the end of history, we are also told.
Brutality goes further back. To the book of Genesis.
Ukrainiam brutality against Poles in 1939 and again in the mid 1940s is well known. Maybe goes back to Ukraine being frequently associated with the Lithuanian Tartars, those western bits of it that were not conquered and controlled by the Tartars , just like, you know Russia, of which they were a part.
They are surely not typical of all Russians. On the other hand, they seem to have become so embedded in Russian culture and behaviour that they are more readily accepted. True that only a minority do these things. But too many people passively accept it.
Remember also that the “bloodthirsty and ruthless” Putin regime is apparently very popular …
Here’s a simple test – is there public outrage in Moscow when people hear about these things ? Remember that there – quite rightly – was in Western countries about Abu Ghraib. That’s a critical difference.
But perhaps my question is hypothetical. It requires that Russian media and censorship actually allows this information to circulate. Again, that’s a key difference. We know about Abu Ghraib and the facts are not disuputed.
I note – and it’s very much to your credit – that you are not disputing or denying that the Russians have done these things.
I do sometimes wonder whether Russia as a country needs to undergo some sort of collective therapy to get some of this stuff out of their system.
I agree with your first paragraph.
But pathologizing the entire nation? I’m somewhat tempted to go along with you, but I think we should resist. Especially when our own society has plenty of psychosis and repressed trauma and all that. Bit of a “physician, heal thyself” situation. I would allow that American society is not as sick, but that’s coming from inside my American head, and I honestly think broad brush diagnoses, especially from afar, are unhelpful. We should go further than the labeling, and consent to self-examination too. But for a bit of online fun, what are the major Russian pathologies (among the populace) if you’ve narrowed that down?
Yes Russia is repressive and violent. Public outrage that goes beyond the dinner table is likely to result in a strange fall out of a high window. That’s why I implied and believe that Russia is more “back to Soviet” than at any time since 1992, under a leader who wants to carve out his legacy at just about any human cost.
Among nations I can think of, perhaps only China, North Korea, Cuba (quasi-Marxist dictatorships) and Singapore (very illiberal democracy) have an comparably or more oppressive state apparatus. I would estimate that only the North Korean regime and its dear sick leader rivals present-moment Russia in its aim to silence without trying to pacify or indulge its citizens a bit more. The transformative change can only come from within. Even a global cataclysm that targets Putin and “bombs Russia back to the agrarian age” won’t do the work that has to come from Russians themselves.
The US understandably does not serve as global model of inner stability and societal wellbeing right now. Perhaps we should stop regarding and selling ourselves as some prevailing or one-sided global model (we instruct, everyone else learns) for all peoples. The other side of that inflated prid