Now and then, even the most seasoned politician happens to slip up and accidently speak the truth. This is what occurred during a recent debate at the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, when the German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock openly stated that “we are fighting a war against Russia”. The German government was quick to say her words had been “misinterpreted”, but the truth is that she did nothing more than say it how it is.
Almost a year into the conflict, the narrative of Western intervention in Ukraine — that “Nato is not at war with Russia” and that “the equipment we’re providing is purely defensive” — is being revealed for what it always was: a fiction. Last month, at Ramstein Air Base in Germany, another kernel of truth slipped through the cracks at a briefing by US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Milley. Austin and Miller stated in no uncertain terms that the US was committed to going “on the offensive to liberate Russian-occupied Ukraine” — which, according to the United States, includes both the entire Donbas and Crimea.
The admission that the weapons being provided by the US and Nato are of an offensive, not defensive, character marks a significant U-turn for the Biden administration. In March last year, Biden promised the public that the US would not send “offensive equipment” and “planes and tanks” to Ukraine, because this would trigger “World War III”. Indeed, just a few months ago, the provision of tanks to Ukraine was still deemed unthinkable.
Yet in the coming months, the US is planning to deliver 31 Abrams tanks, and even Germany, after weeks of reluctance, has caved in to the immense pressure coming from Washington and other allies. The German government has agreed to send 14 of its Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, and has also given the go-ahead to a number of other European countries which want to send their own German-made Leopard 2 tanks. Meanwhile, the UK has committed 14 of its own tanks. In total, Ukraine is set to receive around 100 tanks, but the number is likely to go up (Zelensky has asked for 300-500).
This is simply the latest in a long list of red lines that the US and Nato have crossed since the start of the conflict. At the start of the war, the New York Times cautioned that the overt supply of even small arms and light weaponry — initial provisions were limited to rocket launchers and anti-tank and surface-to-air missiles — “risks encouraging a wider war and possible retaliation” from Russia, while US officials ruled out more advanced weaponry as too escalatory. Just two months later, the Biden administration backtracked and announced that it would in fact be sending Mi-17 helicopters, 155-mm Howitzer cannons and Switchblade “kamikaze” drones.
At that point, a new red line was drawn: despite Kyiv’s requests, the US said it would not provide Ukraine with long-range rocket systems capable of striking inside Russian territory (the M270 MLRS and the M142 HIMARS) due to concerns in Washington that this “could be seen as an escalation by the Kremlin”. It took the administration just two weeks to change its mind, on the condition that Ukraine would not use them against targets on Russian territory — until, in December, that line was crossed as well, when Ukraine hit airfields hundreds of kilometres into Russia (with the US’s approval). The about-face over the shipment of battle tanks was just as quick, as we’ve seen.
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SubscribeThe author writes in a vacuum – as if all escalation has come from the West. In reality since the start of the “special military operation”, Russia has commenced a mass mobilisation to greatly increase the number of troops it can commit, as well as unleashing mercenaries and released prisoners onto the front line. Given its larger size, this makes ultimate Russian victory inevitable, unless military assistance to Ukraine is stepped up. In that scenario, the flood of migrants west could be in the tens of millions, and the conflict could move to whatever neighbour Russia next declared to be an “existential threat”. There was no meaningful threat to Russia’s position in Crimea and the other occupied territories until Putin started this war last year. It is facile to depict allowing Russia to overrun Ukraine as being risk free for the West.
I don’t entirely agree with the part where Russia faced no threat from Western expansion – it is true to an extent that the West did not honestly adhere to its commitments made to Russia after the fall of Communism.
In no sense however does this mean that Putin’s actions represent a genuine casus belli – the aggression is all on the Russian side and the manner in which the war has been prosecuted on the Russian side is a disgrace.
Where I do agree with you is that no outcome can be tolerated in which Russia gains from its actions after February of 2022. If this happens, the potential for conflict contagion is obvious.
I would agree however the concern is that the US has changed the agenda from “understanding” the Russian claim to and strategic importance of Crimea to wanting to clear them out
This shift along with repeated comments from Austin on destroying Russias conventional ability are very dangerous and its about time we had a full debate in parliament about the end game.
Whilst Russia is the physical aggressor the west is not blame free particularly not in the sugar coated way the BBC Doc on Putin portrays.
The Israeli PM Bennett came out with a very interesting interview this week painting the Uk and the USA as anti any peace and settlement other than a full withdrawal by Russia when Zelensky he suggested would have settled for less
I don’t recall any recent time when Zelensky suggested settling for less. And he wouldn’t have popular support within Ukraine for doing so.
Ukraine already tried making peace with Russia — the Minsk Protocols 2014, 2015. Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in 1994, in exchange for Russian promises to respect their independence and sovereignty.
It’s hard to make peace when words mean nothing.
The Minsk Protocols were a sick joke. As acknowledged now by both Merkel and Holland, the protocols were only instituted to give Ukraine time to build up militarily. Russian signed onto the agreements in good faith, Germany and France did not.
‘It’s hard to make peace when words mean nothing’.
Indeed…
The covert attack by Russia on Ukraine was far more a “sick joke” than Minsk ever was.
After the armistice, Putin could have asked for blue helmets to separate the two sides and hold a genuine referendum, a la Bosnia.
Instead he chose to make Donbas a frozen conflict, like his many others.
Putin doesn’t want peace with his neighbours.
He wants to permanently intimidate them, and insurte they never have normal relations with any other nation.
Putin would like to not have nuclear missiles capable of striking the heart of Russia in under 10 minutes. The situation that the USA/NATO has placed us in will result in nuclear response system being on a hair trigger.
The chances of a mistake are unacceptably high.
the idea that NATO would EVER attack Russia is a particularly stupid one !!
the idea that NATO would EVER attack Russia is a particularly stupid one !!
Putin would like to not have nuclear missiles capable of striking the heart of Russia in under 10 minutes. The situation that the USA/NATO has placed us in will result in nuclear response system being on a hair trigger.
The chances of a mistake are unacceptably high.
The covert attack by Russia on Ukraine was far more a “sick joke” than Minsk ever was.
After the armistice, Putin could have asked for blue helmets to separate the two sides and hold a genuine referendum, a la Bosnia.
Instead he chose to make Donbas a frozen conflict, like his many others.
Putin doesn’t want peace with his neighbours.
He wants to permanently intimidate them, and insurte they never have normal relations with any other nation.
No Ukraine did not try making peace with Russia, yes they signed the Minsk protocols and then made no attempt to enforce tehm and were not pressed to do so by the cosignees to that deal,
Merkel has already stated that the Germans had no interest in making it happen. Interestingly the US was not part of this deal does make me wonder how much they were pushing Ukraine to not comply.
The Minsk Protocols were a sick joke. As acknowledged now by both Merkel and Holland, the protocols were only instituted to give Ukraine time to build up militarily. Russian signed onto the agreements in good faith, Germany and France did not.
‘It’s hard to make peace when words mean nothing’.
Indeed…
No Ukraine did not try making peace with Russia, yes they signed the Minsk protocols and then made no attempt to enforce tehm and were not pressed to do so by the cosignees to that deal,
Merkel has already stated that the Germans had no interest in making it happen. Interestingly the US was not part of this deal does make me wonder how much they were pushing Ukraine to not comply.
I don’t recall any recent time when Zelensky suggested settling for less. And he wouldn’t have popular support within Ukraine for doing so.
Ukraine already tried making peace with Russia — the Minsk Protocols 2014, 2015. Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in 1994, in exchange for Russian promises to respect their independence and sovereignty.
It’s hard to make peace when words mean nothing.
I would agree however the concern is that the US has changed the agenda from “understanding” the Russian claim to and strategic importance of Crimea to wanting to clear them out
This shift along with repeated comments from Austin on destroying Russias conventional ability are very dangerous and its about time we had a full debate in parliament about the end game.
Whilst Russia is the physical aggressor the west is not blame free particularly not in the sugar coated way the BBC Doc on Putin portrays.
The Israeli PM Bennett came out with a very interesting interview this week painting the Uk and the USA as anti any peace and settlement other than a full withdrawal by Russia when Zelensky he suggested would have settled for less
Yup, if the west had done nothing to resist Russia I think the Eastern European states would have formed their own ‘defensive’ military alliance, separate from NATO, and called upon USA and U.K. support, which we would have provided. The template is so clearly Hitlerian, with expansion based on mythical existential threats to justify it.
Everything is hitler…tiresome. Imo a more accurate comparison is WWI and we’ve obviously learned nothing from it.
Everything is hitler…tiresome. Imo a more accurate comparison is WWI and we’ve obviously learned nothing from it.
“There was no meaningful threat to Russia’s position in Crimea and the other occupied territories until Putin started this war last year”
Sorry, that’s simply not true. The fighting has been going on without a break since the breaching of the Minsk accords (by both sides, probably) in 2014. Putin didn’t start the war in 2022, he escalated it.
So Putin started it when he sent his troops into Crimea or the eastern regions then?
Actually yes. It is just that the other side, the Ukrainians and their current allies didn’t show up to fight They just said, “Fine, Mr Putin; have it your own way. We don’t want any casualties. We don’t want to spend any money to impede your ambitions.”. So now the war continues until the Donbas is taken, and then the rest of the Ukraine, and indeed the rest of Eastern Europe. Mr Putin has never made any secret of his goal to return Europe to the status of 1988. And yes, that does include reincorporating the Baltic states into Russia proper and reinstating Russian hegemony over the other Eastern European countries, including of course the Eastern parts of Germany.
I hear you Ian. You echo the sentiments of John Sullivan, former US ambassador to Russia under Trump and then Biden: ‘On Russia extending war into other countries – they would if they could, but hands full in Donbas. Would like a relationship with the other former Soviet Republics like the one they have with Belarus. What they want in Kyiv, Moldova etc. Hands full in Ukraine now, but may be his longer vision for Putin and his followers/successors’. (It was a recent Kennan Institute webinar, from Feb this year). While I’m at it, I believe my good friend Lewis Baston wrote your chapter on Callaghan! Greetings! He has a book deal currently for a book on borders – you should touch base.
Actually, the CIA/State Department coup (“…f**k the EU) got the ball rolling, imo. That, and placing launch tubes in Romania that could house offensive missiles (Tomohawks)…
I hear you Ian. You echo the sentiments of John Sullivan, former US ambassador to Russia under Trump and then Biden: ‘On Russia extending war into other countries – they would if they could, but hands full in Donbas. Would like a relationship with the other former Soviet Republics like the one they have with Belarus. What they want in Kyiv, Moldova etc. Hands full in Ukraine now, but may be his longer vision for Putin and his followers/successors’. (It was a recent Kennan Institute webinar, from Feb this year). While I’m at it, I believe my good friend Lewis Baston wrote your chapter on Callaghan! Greetings! He has a book deal currently for a book on borders – you should touch base.
Actually, the CIA/State Department coup (“…f**k the EU) got the ball rolling, imo. That, and placing launch tubes in Romania that could house offensive missiles (Tomohawks)…
Actually yes. It is just that the other side, the Ukrainians and their current allies didn’t show up to fight They just said, “Fine, Mr Putin; have it your own way. We don’t want any casualties. We don’t want to spend any money to impede your ambitions.”. So now the war continues until the Donbas is taken, and then the rest of the Ukraine, and indeed the rest of Eastern Europe. Mr Putin has never made any secret of his goal to return Europe to the status of 1988. And yes, that does include reincorporating the Baltic states into Russia proper and reinstating Russian hegemony over the other Eastern European countries, including of course the Eastern parts of Germany.
No. There’s been a separatist movement in those regions since the 1990s.
So Putin started it when he sent his troops into Crimea or the eastern regions then?
No. There’s been a separatist movement in those regions since the 1990s.
Today on Daily Mail – but read the comments – the BTL is almost 100% Against this war – against giving weapons and money! Fantastic, the people are realizing how evil this war is . Peace Now.
Disgusting looking at the three faces of Evil on the header of the article above!
‘‘We’ll send you pilots who’ve already done 2.5 years’: Zelensky swipes at Rishi Sunak’s claim it takes three years to train to fly UK fighter jets at joint press conference – while Russia threatens ‘response’ if Britain heeds Ukraine’s plea for planes
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11728209/Rishi-Sunak-warns-time-train-Ukraine-pilots-fly-fighter-jets.html
A lot of people wondering what Boris is playing at too, myself included. He seems to be leading the charge for escalation….
They love him in Ukraine.
He’s probably working for Blackrock who, given the win win position they seem to be in may well be the main escalator of this war.
For those that don’t know Blackrock has substantial investment in major US arms manufacturers has three of its alumni in the Biden administration and also has a deal with the current Ukraine leadership as regards rebuilding the country when the dust settles, assuming they win of course.
Thanks, I’m going right off boris 🙂 Multicorps ahead of the game again, apparently the us military industrial complex is having an aggressive growth and revamp drive at the moment.
Thanks, I’m going right off boris 🙂 Multicorps ahead of the game again, apparently the us military industrial complex is having an aggressive growth and revamp drive at the moment.
On Times radio the other day one young male presenter said to the other presenter something like “what is it with Boris Johnson going around the world making deals like he is the Prime Minister”. And that remark tripped a switch in my head. Of course all those months when us simpletons were being distracted by the tv reality show style voting what was Boris doing. He was making secret deals. I’m sure of it. Rishi Sunak is his stand in,his Avatar.
I feel sure I’m right. Somehow,some way Boris is still REALLY our Prime Minister,or someone’s PM.
Boris thinks he’s Churchill and Putin is Hitler. I’s really that simple.
Well I did think it was possible he may have thought Britain leading the way at the start might have kept the Americans under control. Now potentially it just looks like he’s been cut free to cut dodgy deals on weapons. I don’t know what is happening. But none of it is looking good at this point.
Everyone the left or neocons don’t like is hitler.
Well I did think it was possible he may have thought Britain leading the way at the start might have kept the Americans under control. Now potentially it just looks like he’s been cut free to cut dodgy deals on weapons. I don’t know what is happening. But none of it is looking good at this point.
Everyone the left or neocons don’t like is hitler.
They love him in Ukraine.
He’s probably working for Blackrock who, given the win win position they seem to be in may well be the main escalator of this war.
For those that don’t know Blackrock has substantial investment in major US arms manufacturers has three of its alumni in the Biden administration and also has a deal with the current Ukraine leadership as regards rebuilding the country when the dust settles, assuming they win of course.
On Times radio the other day one young male presenter said to the other presenter something like “what is it with Boris Johnson going around the world making deals like he is the Prime Minister”. And that remark tripped a switch in my head. Of course all those months when us simpletons were being distracted by the tv reality show style voting what was Boris doing. He was making secret deals. I’m sure of it. Rishi Sunak is his stand in,his Avatar.
I feel sure I’m right. Somehow,some way Boris is still REALLY our Prime Minister,or someone’s PM.
Boris thinks he’s Churchill and Putin is Hitler. I’s really that simple.
Who are the BTL? Forgive my ignorance.
The comments feed under the linked article.
Ah, ‘Below the Line’! Ha ha! So simple in the end. Thank you!
Ah, ‘Below the Line’! Ha ha! So simple in the end. Thank you!
The comments feed under the linked article.
Daily Mail? Apologies. I am grateful for the link. Sometimes, oddly, tabloids (on both sides of the political spectrum), get it right. Sometimes.
I wouldn’t put too much trust in the Daily Mail. On the horseshoe of stupidity, you’ve got the Guardian on the left and Mail on the right. Most of society exists a long way between the two thankfully
I thought you were from New Zealand? Both those news papers do actually publish news you know, a bad understanding of msm.
I’m English, I now live in NZ. Both of those rage are absolute tripe, they’re a parody of newspapers the pair of them. The Guardian is Twitter personified, whereas The Mail is satire of old people yelling about how things were better in their day
Still. Misunderstand. Yes every paper has its own bias. Yes the news is packaged and presented to draw attention to certain issues and detract from others. But fundamentally, there is some news and some fact in all the msm. It’s not quite gone full 1984 yet. There is nothing wrong with sharing articles from msm.
There’s news in them both, but it’s written in such a heavily opinionated matter that the original story gets lost in the nonsense.
So you are saying…… Its all just opinions? OK. So the msm orchestrate a conspiracy of the same written opinions? We are still not having a sensible conversation I feel.
So you are saying…… Its all just opinions? OK. So the msm orchestrate a conspiracy of the same written opinions? We are still not having a sensible conversation I feel.
There’s news in them both, but it’s written in such a heavily opinionated matter that the original story gets lost in the nonsense.
I read everything, whether I agree with it or not! Can’t make a sound argument otherwise
Still. Misunderstand. Yes every paper has its own bias. Yes the news is packaged and presented to draw attention to certain issues and detract from others. But fundamentally, there is some news and some fact in all the msm. It’s not quite gone full 1984 yet. There is nothing wrong with sharing articles from msm.
I read everything, whether I agree with it or not! Can’t make a sound argument otherwise
I’m English, I now live in NZ. Both of those rage are absolute tripe, they’re a parody of newspapers the pair of them. The Guardian is Twitter personified, whereas The Mail is satire of old people yelling about how things were better in their day
I thought you were from New Zealand? Both those news papers do actually publish news you know, a bad understanding of msm.
I wouldn’t put too much trust in the Daily Mail. On the horseshoe of stupidity, you’ve got the Guardian on the left and Mail on the right. Most of society exists a long way between the two thankfully
A lot of people wondering what Boris is playing at too, myself included. He seems to be leading the charge for escalation….
Who are the BTL? Forgive my ignorance.
Daily Mail? Apologies. I am grateful for the link. Sometimes, oddly, tabloids (on both sides of the political spectrum), get it right. Sometimes.
It doesn’t matter which side the escalation comes from. The longer the war lasts and the more escalation there is, the greater the chance of a disastrous miscalculation.
A NATO that includes authoritarian countries like Turkey had little sense and has no moral authority. NATO did not respect their commitments and expanded toward Russia. Ukraine surrendered their nuclear ammo to Russia in exchange of its territorial integrity. Neither Russia nor the NATO cared to respect that.
Instead of engaging Russia during the Yeltsin era, the EU and the US were more interested in plundering their resources and letting the oligarchs get rich on what was formerly people’s property. So, the Russians felt that freedom was limited to former members of the apparatchik to get rich and voted for a former KGB agent that promised a sort of return to some of the Soviet dreams with the assistance of Pope Kirill, who is both an oligarch and a religious leader that incarnates the old Russian Empire.
The NATO allowed the invasion of Ukraine, denying any deployment of military defence systems along their borders after the annexation of Ukraine 8 years ago. Now it is playing a long proxy war against Russia while China is not touching its arm stocks.
External debt for the largest NATO members is over 100% (roughly 130% for the US). The economy is stagnated and the inflation is high, as shown for instance in the last monthly Bundesband report. Guess that some bureaucrats thought that military Keynesianism could be a good idea to get out of the crises.
As per the supposition that Russia would win because of its larger size, this makes no sense. Japan defeated Russia in 1905, Vietnam defeated the US during the Johnson-Nixon era and Afghanistan defeated the Soviets in the 1980s. The swampy Ukrainian soil would be tricky, to say the least, for the Russian tanks. Russian communication systems are not the state of the art, to say the least, and its financial muscle is weaker than that of any major NATO member.
Russia can count on their energy and mineral resources and domestic technology, but its strategy has been only successful with long resistance and counter-attack, not in attack and occupation campaigns.
So, if NATO + Ukraine wins, the likely winners would be China and Turkey. Therefore, it would sound like a weakening of the UK, the EU and the US.
If efforts were put in peace and reconstruction agreements, we might be able to focus on how to manage debt and inflation.
Stop with the rewriting of history. There was never any guarantee of no further NATO expansion when the USSR collapsed. That myth needs to be put to bed once and for all
It doesn’t matter whether there was a guarantee. If the United States had a sense of honor, there would have been no expansion of NATO after the dissolution of the USSR. The United States means nothing to me anymore.
There are 13 USA funded bio-labs in the Ukraine. Mr Putin put 9 out of action. I don’t know if they are operational now. The USA located them provacatively near the border. Would you like it if your neighbour put a poison store and with flammable items right up against your garden fence. Mr Biden in one of those unguarded moments told a journalist that they put the bio labs in the Ukraine because none of the USA electorate would tolerate having such a place in their location. Also this is why USA has to fight this war by proxy. The Afghan/Iraq conflicts showed the power of American Mom’s camping on the White House lawn.
It doesn’t matter whether there was a guarantee. If the United States had a sense of honor, there would have been no expansion of NATO after the dissolution of the USSR. The United States means nothing to me anymore.
There are 13 USA funded bio-labs in the Ukraine. Mr Putin put 9 out of action. I don’t know if they are operational now. The USA located them provacatively near the border. Would you like it if your neighbour put a poison store and with flammable items right up against your garden fence. Mr Biden in one of those unguarded moments told a journalist that they put the bio labs in the Ukraine because none of the USA electorate would tolerate having such a place in their location. Also this is why USA has to fight this war by proxy. The Afghan/Iraq conflicts showed the power of American Mom’s camping on the White House lawn.
Didn’t Zelensky recently state that Blackrock, Goldman Sachs etc had already signed reconstruction agreements?
Stop with the rewriting of history. There was never any guarantee of no further NATO expansion when the USSR collapsed. That myth needs to be put to bed once and for all
Didn’t Zelensky recently state that Blackrock, Goldman Sachs etc had already signed reconstruction agreements?
To say that there was no meaningful threat in Crimea and other occupied territories I assume you mean the Donbas which was not occupied by Russia prior to march of 2022 is either disingenuous or the author is ignorant of the facts. The Donbas and Lughansk had always been very pro Russia were never happy with the US backed illegal coupe in 2014. Since that time Kiev had carried our a campaign of what can only be called ethnic cleansing in these regions.
Had the west negotiated in good faith with Russia and ensured the Minsk agreements were put in place and enforced then likely we would not be in this position today. Russia has only ever wanted to avoid having NATO on its border a not unreasonable position given the actions of NATO over the last decade.
NATO was created as a defensive organisation and should have been disbanded in the early ’90’s
I don’t entirely agree with the part where Russia faced no threat from Western expansion – it is true to an extent that the West did not honestly adhere to its commitments made to Russia after the fall of Communism.
In no sense however does this mean that Putin’s actions represent a genuine casus belli – the aggression is all on the Russian side and the manner in which the war has been prosecuted on the Russian side is a disgrace.
Where I do agree with you is that no outcome can be tolerated in which Russia gains from its actions after February of 2022. If this happens, the potential for conflict contagion is obvious.
Yup, if the west had done nothing to resist Russia I think the Eastern European states would have formed their own ‘defensive’ military alliance, separate from NATO, and called upon USA and U.K. support, which we would have provided. The template is so clearly Hitlerian, with expansion based on mythical existential threats to justify it.
“There was no meaningful threat to Russia’s position in Crimea and the other occupied territories until Putin started this war last year”
Sorry, that’s simply not true. The fighting has been going on without a break since the breaching of the Minsk accords (by both sides, probably) in 2014. Putin didn’t start the war in 2022, he escalated it.
Today on Daily Mail – but read the comments – the BTL is almost 100% Against this war – against giving weapons and money! Fantastic, the people are realizing how evil this war is . Peace Now.
Disgusting looking at the three faces of Evil on the header of the article above!
‘‘We’ll send you pilots who’ve already done 2.5 years’: Zelensky swipes at Rishi Sunak’s claim it takes three years to train to fly UK fighter jets at joint press conference – while Russia threatens ‘response’ if Britain heeds Ukraine’s plea for planes
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11728209/Rishi-Sunak-warns-time-train-Ukraine-pilots-fly-fighter-jets.html
It doesn’t matter which side the escalation comes from. The longer the war lasts and the more escalation there is, the greater the chance of a disastrous miscalculation.
A NATO that includes authoritarian countries like Turkey had little sense and has no moral authority. NATO did not respect their commitments and expanded toward Russia. Ukraine surrendered their nuclear ammo to Russia in exchange of its territorial integrity. Neither Russia nor the NATO cared to respect that.
Instead of engaging Russia during the Yeltsin era, the EU and the US were more interested in plundering their resources and letting the oligarchs get rich on what was formerly people’s property. So, the Russians felt that freedom was limited to former members of the apparatchik to get rich and voted for a former KGB agent that promised a sort of return to some of the Soviet dreams with the assistance of Pope Kirill, who is both an oligarch and a religious leader that incarnates the old Russian Empire.
The NATO allowed the invasion of Ukraine, denying any deployment of military defence systems along their borders after the annexation of Ukraine 8 years ago. Now it is playing a long proxy war against Russia while China is not touching its arm stocks.
External debt for the largest NATO members is over 100% (roughly 130% for the US). The economy is stagnated and the inflation is high, as shown for instance in the last monthly Bundesband report. Guess that some bureaucrats thought that military Keynesianism could be a good idea to get out of the crises.
As per the supposition that Russia would win because of its larger size, this makes no sense. Japan defeated Russia in 1905, Vietnam defeated the US during the Johnson-Nixon era and Afghanistan defeated the Soviets in the 1980s. The swampy Ukrainian soil would be tricky, to say the least, for the Russian tanks. Russian communication systems are not the state of the art, to say the least, and its financial muscle is weaker than that of any major NATO member.
Russia can count on their energy and mineral resources and domestic technology, but its strategy has been only successful with long resistance and counter-attack, not in attack and occupation campaigns.
So, if NATO + Ukraine wins, the likely winners would be China and Turkey. Therefore, it would sound like a weakening of the UK, the EU and the US.
If efforts were put in peace and reconstruction agreements, we might be able to focus on how to manage debt and inflation.
To say that there was no meaningful threat in Crimea and other occupied territories I assume you mean the Donbas which was not occupied by Russia prior to march of 2022 is either disingenuous or the author is ignorant of the facts. The Donbas and Lughansk had always been very pro Russia were never happy with the US backed illegal coupe in 2014. Since that time Kiev had carried our a campaign of what can only be called ethnic cleansing in these regions.
Had the west negotiated in good faith with Russia and ensured the Minsk agreements were put in place and enforced then likely we would not be in this position today. Russia has only ever wanted to avoid having NATO on its border a not unreasonable position given the actions of NATO over the last decade.
NATO was created as a defensive organisation and should have been disbanded in the early ’90’s
The author writes in a vacuum – as if all escalation has come from the West. In reality since the start of the “special military operation”, Russia has commenced a mass mobilisation to greatly increase the number of troops it can commit, as well as unleashing mercenaries and released prisoners onto the front line. Given its larger size, this makes ultimate Russian victory inevitable, unless military assistance to Ukraine is stepped up. In that scenario, the flood of migrants west could be in the tens of millions, and the conflict could move to whatever neighbour Russia next declared to be an “existential threat”. There was no meaningful threat to Russia’s position in Crimea and the other occupied territories until Putin started this war last year. It is facile to depict allowing Russia to overrun Ukraine as being risk free for the West.
The Author seems to forget this is already a catastrophe for the 40m people of Ukraine as one would expect when your country is invaded by a murderous regime.
Putin will continue to sabre rattle the nuclear escalation threat. Each time he does he shows his weakness. His only hope is opinion formers in the West buy into it, as this Article to a degree does.
There is no tactical battlefield benefit to using these weapons. Amongst a number of reasons for that anyone looked at which way the prevailing winds blow in Ukraine? Anyone pondered if the Russian forces actually have sufficient bio-nuc-chemical warfare kit? No they’ll have flogged it on the black market like they did with half the rest of their kit.
It’s difficult to determine how close Putin might be to a Palace coup. Probably not that close yet, but he knows a move in this direction could change that. His mafia regime doesn’t want to destroy everything they have left. They also know what non western support they have would evaporate. Thus Putin knows he likely signs his own death warrant if he uses nuclear weapons. He’s rationale, just a murderous type.
One suspects though that the FSB closely monitors the degree of resolution in the West and probably has ways of picking up how many similar articles begin to populate western media. They’ll watch the trend to see if the more they threaten the more we cower. That doesn’t mean we should suppress different views at all, but does mean we should be aware of the game being played.
Well said. Russia has repeatedly threatened at every stage. Remember how Sweden and Finland couldn’t join NATO. Each time, the moment passed and the threats never materialised.
Putin has turned his country into one giant Potemkin village.
I thought Sweden didn’t want to join nato preferring to maintain its neutral status as it had done for a long time including during the Second World War. Was that not the case?
Yes that indeed was true but the public attitude to NATO changed with Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.
Though one benefit of Sweden and Finland not being in NATO is that they can be more aggressive with their own defence against Russia, and Russia can’t then pretend it’s a NATO threat.
They don’t have nuclear weapons. If I was a country at risk of Russian annexation/invasion, the nuclear umbrella would be very attractive to me…
They don’t have nuclear weapons. If I was a country at risk of Russian annexation/invasion, the nuclear umbrella would be very attractive to me…
As a swede I would say that neutrality is a beautiful dream and reality a great wake-up call.
Exactly.
Exactly.
They didn’t. Then came 24/2…
Yes that indeed was true but the public attitude to NATO changed with Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.
Though one benefit of Sweden and Finland not being in NATO is that they can be more aggressive with their own defence against Russia, and Russia can’t then pretend it’s a NATO threat.
As a swede I would say that neutrality is a beautiful dream and reality a great wake-up call.
They didn’t. Then came 24/2…
Thank you for this ‘Potemkin village’ reference. It spiralled me down a research hole for which now I can happily say I am greatly enlightened! Thank you.
I thought Sweden didn’t want to join nato preferring to maintain its neutral status as it had done for a long time including during the Second World War. Was that not the case?
Thank you for this ‘Potemkin village’ reference. It spiralled me down a research hole for which now I can happily say I am greatly enlightened! Thank you.
Problem is: if Putin is overthrown it will most likely be done by people who think he’s not being brutal enough.
Possibly HB, but the Russian experts I’ve heard discuss this on various media predict more an internal bloodbath of sorts rather than Nuclear projection at the West immediately. You don’t want to grab power, start to enjoy what goes with that – the Dachas, the patronage levers etc, and then chuck it away. Power corrupts as they say. I was also fascinated in listening to experts like Stephen Kotkin that the fall of Putin could set off a cascade of imperial disintegration in what is still a Russian empire. We tend to forget Russia is an imperial construct and has many fault-lines that could open up. That of course generates other potential risk, but possibly less that it immediately goes into a nuclear conflagration with the West.
I read that they are planning for a potential explosion of Russia, just in case… May not happen, but everything has to be on the table just in case. Part of Russia’s problem at the start of the war. They expected it to be quick and easy – government overthrow in a matter of days. Too arrogant. When it didn’t work out, back to the drawing board.
I read that they are planning for a potential explosion of Russia, just in case… May not happen, but everything has to be on the table just in case. Part of Russia’s problem at the start of the war. They expected it to be quick and easy – government overthrow in a matter of days. Too arrogant. When it didn’t work out, back to the drawing board.
Russia needs another Mikhail Gorbachev
He would have fallen out of a window by now.
ha ha!
ha ha!
If only … He was great!
From a Russian viewpoint that’s like saying Britain needs another Neville Chamberlain
He would have fallen out of a window by now.
If only … He was great!
From a Russian viewpoint that’s like saying Britain needs another Neville Chamberlain
Yes. There is no good end to this.
Very true. We know what Putin is as a leader. He has shown his true colours over a long period of his dictatorship. We can surmise what he plans on doing. I can’t say the same thing to another brutal praetorian rebel leader.
This indeed is a possibility. An additional consideration that has to be in the planning network is the disintegration of Russia… Not saying it’s happening. Just saying it has to be considered as one of the possibilities in the plans.
Possibly HB, but the Russian experts I’ve heard discuss this on various media predict more an internal bloodbath of sorts rather than Nuclear projection at the West immediately. You don’t want to grab power, start to enjoy what goes with that – the Dachas, the patronage levers etc, and then chuck it away. Power corrupts as they say. I was also fascinated in listening to experts like Stephen Kotkin that the fall of Putin could set off a cascade of imperial disintegration in what is still a Russian empire. We tend to forget Russia is an imperial construct and has many fault-lines that could open up. That of course generates other potential risk, but possibly less that it immediately goes into a nuclear conflagration with the West.
Russia needs another Mikhail Gorbachev
Yes. There is no good end to this.
Very true. We know what Putin is as a leader. He has shown his true colours over a long period of his dictatorship. We can surmise what he plans on doing. I can’t say the same thing to another brutal praetorian rebel leader.
This indeed is a possibility. An additional consideration that has to be in the planning network is the disintegration of Russia… Not saying it’s happening. Just saying it has to be considered as one of the possibilities in the plans.
“There is no tactical battlefield benefit to using these weapons.” –
I’ve heard this claim often but it’s dubious.
How exactly do the Ukraine forces retake Crimea which is connected to the rest of Ukraine with two narrow peninsulas? With their non-existent amphibian landing craft or non-existent paratroops? No. They will need concentrated assaults on one or both roads to Crimea. Tactical nukes can be dialed into whatever yield and radius the Russians desire.
It doesn’t matter which way the wind blows! Tactical nukes exploded high in the atmosphere create orders of magnitude less fallout than regular nukes and the radioactive remains of the bomb disperses over a very wide area with minimal harm outside the target area.
This is not to say we shouldn’t help Ukraine. It’s just that Putin, if Crimea were ever threatened with invasion with Putin still in power, has nothing left to lose in going nuclear.
https://open.substack.com/pub/everythingelse/p/nuclear-weapons-in-ukraine-thinking?r=p3jgh&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Thank you Michael for your clarification on the radius of Tactical Nukes. I read your link on substack and see that you have an Ms and PhD in Applied Physics from Cornell. It was interesting to hear and you clarified something I didn’t know previously in a way that was easy to understand. Much appreciated.
Thank you for reading the article and kind words.
Thank you for reading the article and kind words.
Ukraine doesn’t necessarily need to invade Crimea to control it. The whole peninsula would be within range of long range weapons, most importantly the Kerch bridge.
Most pro-Russian Crimeans would already have left, so it would become a siege. Then negotiation.
The situation as it was before–a Crimea with considerable autonomy (or even neutrality)–would be the probable outcome.
By then both sides will be tired of war.
Interesting MC. Re: Tactical benefit – thus far I put more stock in the v senior ex-military commentators I’ve listened to. All been of similar mind. If opposing forces are in contact a high atmosphere detonation would impact on Russian forces too. Plus if you want to retain some loyalty from some Crimean locals you don’t drop a nuclear warhead on your own land do you? I’ve also heard commentators suggest Russian leaders not entirely sure their nuclear capability as functional as they’d hope. The chronic problems they’ve experienced with so much they thought was resilient and well functioning means they may be cautious about any demonstration that went wrong. Sabre rattling capability implodes if you demonstrate things don’t work.
As regards how Ukraine retakes Crimea – clearly the strategy won’t be fully shared but remarkable they re-took back so much territory already without heavy armour. It’ll be about cutting off the two supplies routes, degrading the forces in Crimea and creating a scenario where they potentially withdraw before being encircled as was the case with Kherson. I agree though – it’s complicated on many levels. But Ukraine knows to leave Crimea alone means they’ll never be secure.
I am hesitant to give the experts the benefit of the doubt these days (not just regarding Ukraine). It would be instructive to go back 1 years time and do a duckduckgo search for comments by one of the commentators who says that nukes have no use case and see their predictions for the duration of the “special operation” by Russia. I recall many ex military predicting it would take 3 days to be over!
Regarding some of our counter claims:
There won’t be many Russian regular forces under the death zone (maybe zero) which could be as small as a mile. Look at the highway near Stavky in Kherson Oblast. It’s flat farm land – no close contact there! That territory will eventually be going back to Ukraine – Putin has demonstrated zero regard for the lives of Ukrainians so he’ll have no hesitation to bomb territory he realizes he can’t have.
Sure the nuke might not work – that is why you don’t do a “demonstration” as you refer to! Russians could fire a TN via artillery over a convoy near Stavky and if it is a dud and becomes a dirty bomb (leaving evidence) Putin might be even better off! He can deny being the source and simultaneouswly scare the crap out of any further advances into Crimea.
Again, I really hope there is peace, however shaky, before this point.
I am hesitant to give the experts the benefit of the doubt these days (not just regarding Ukraine). It would be instructive to go back 1 years time and do a duckduckgo search for comments by one of the commentators who says that nukes have no use case and see their predictions for the duration of the “special operation” by Russia. I recall many ex military predicting it would take 3 days to be over!
Regarding some of our counter claims:
There won’t be many Russian regular forces under the death zone (maybe zero) which could be as small as a mile. Look at the highway near Stavky in Kherson Oblast. It’s flat farm land – no close contact there! That territory will eventually be going back to Ukraine – Putin has demonstrated zero regard for the lives of Ukrainians so he’ll have no hesitation to bomb territory he realizes he can’t have.
Sure the nuke might not work – that is why you don’t do a “demonstration” as you refer to! Russians could fire a TN via artillery over a convoy near Stavky and if it is a dud and becomes a dirty bomb (leaving evidence) Putin might be even better off! He can deny being the source and simultaneouswly scare the crap out of any further advances into Crimea.
Again, I really hope there is peace, however shaky, before this point.
Thank you Michael for your clarification on the radius of Tactical Nukes. I read your link on substack and see that you have an Ms and PhD in Applied Physics from Cornell. It was interesting to hear and you clarified something I didn’t know previously in a way that was easy to understand. Much appreciated.
Ukraine doesn’t necessarily need to invade Crimea to control it. The whole peninsula would be within range of long range weapons, most importantly the Kerch bridge.
Most pro-Russian Crimeans would already have left, so it would become a siege. Then negotiation.
The situation as it was before–a Crimea with considerable autonomy (or even neutrality)–would be the probable outcome.
By then both sides will be tired of war.
Interesting MC. Re: Tactical benefit – thus far I put more stock in the v senior ex-military commentators I’ve listened to. All been of similar mind. If opposing forces are in contact a high atmosphere detonation would impact on Russian forces too. Plus if you want to retain some loyalty from some Crimean locals you don’t drop a nuclear warhead on your own land do you? I’ve also heard commentators suggest Russian leaders not entirely sure their nuclear capability as functional as they’d hope. The chronic problems they’ve experienced with so much they thought was resilient and well functioning means they may be cautious about any demonstration that went wrong. Sabre rattling capability implodes if you demonstrate things don’t work.
As regards how Ukraine retakes Crimea – clearly the strategy won’t be fully shared but remarkable they re-took back so much territory already without heavy armour. It’ll be about cutting off the two supplies routes, degrading the forces in Crimea and creating a scenario where they potentially withdraw before being encircled as was the case with Kherson. I agree though – it’s complicated on many levels. But Ukraine knows to leave Crimea alone means they’ll never be secure.
Maybe Mr Putin is the sane one here. I’m not saying nice,I’m saying sane. Have we in U K all become 3 year olds that we need pantomime villains to boo and hiss at. If anyone is megalomaniac with a Hitler complex it’s looks more like Zelensky to me. And what sort of dreadful people elect as their leader a known liar and money embezzling amoral performer with known links to corruption. Oops,we do (as well). Birds of a Feather as they say.
Well said. Russia has repeatedly threatened at every stage. Remember how Sweden and Finland couldn’t join NATO. Each time, the moment passed and the threats never materialised.
Putin has turned his country into one giant Potemkin village.
Problem is: if Putin is overthrown it will most likely be done by people who think he’s not being brutal enough.
“There is no tactical battlefield benefit to using these weapons.” –
I’ve heard this claim often but it’s dubious.
How exactly do the Ukraine forces retake Crimea which is connected to the rest of Ukraine with two narrow peninsulas? With their non-existent amphibian landing craft or non-existent paratroops? No. They will need concentrated assaults on one or both roads to Crimea. Tactical nukes can be dialed into whatever yield and radius the Russians desire.
It doesn’t matter which way the wind blows! Tactical nukes exploded high in the atmosphere create orders of magnitude less fallout than regular nukes and the radioactive remains of the bomb disperses over a very wide area with minimal harm outside the target area.
This is not to say we shouldn’t help Ukraine. It’s just that Putin, if Crimea were ever threatened with invasion with Putin still in power, has nothing left to lose in going nuclear.
https://open.substack.com/pub/everythingelse/p/nuclear-weapons-in-ukraine-thinking?r=p3jgh&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Maybe Mr Putin is the sane one here. I’m not saying nice,I’m saying sane. Have we in U K all become 3 year olds that we need pantomime villains to boo and hiss at. If anyone is megalomaniac with a Hitler complex it’s looks more like Zelensky to me. And what sort of dreadful people elect as their leader a known liar and money embezzling amoral performer with known links to corruption. Oops,we do (as well). Birds of a Feather as they say.
The Author seems to forget this is already a catastrophe for the 40m people of Ukraine as one would expect when your country is invaded by a murderous regime.
Putin will continue to sabre rattle the nuclear escalation threat. Each time he does he shows his weakness. His only hope is opinion formers in the West buy into it, as this Article to a degree does.
There is no tactical battlefield benefit to using these weapons. Amongst a number of reasons for that anyone looked at which way the prevailing winds blow in Ukraine? Anyone pondered if the Russian forces actually have sufficient bio-nuc-chemical warfare kit? No they’ll have flogged it on the black market like they did with half the rest of their kit.
It’s difficult to determine how close Putin might be to a Palace coup. Probably not that close yet, but he knows a move in this direction could change that. His mafia regime doesn’t want to destroy everything they have left. They also know what non western support they have would evaporate. Thus Putin knows he likely signs his own death warrant if he uses nuclear weapons. He’s rationale, just a murderous type.
One suspects though that the FSB closely monitors the degree of resolution in the West and probably has ways of picking up how many similar articles begin to populate western media. They’ll watch the trend to see if the more they threaten the more we cower. That doesn’t mean we should suppress different views at all, but does mean we should be aware of the game being played.
I am glad that this topic is increasingly talked about seriously. I can’t believe the amount of jingoism that has spread throughout the West, as if all previous disasters have been forgot overnight.
Truth is that both the US and Russia botched the Ukraine game and now, like failed gamblers, are trying to raise the stakes to get any win out of it, but this can only end in disaster. Unlike during the Cold War, where high level talks were essential to prevent escalation, this time all the red lines are violated, escalation risk be damned.
I can’t understand how people don’t realise that the great majority of wars ended in compromise. Moral purity and maximalist aims result in endless suffering (c.f. WW1). WW2 was pursued to such an end and we rightly celebrate that, but one should not neglect that it is also the most destructive war in history thus far. Not saying anyone should roll over, and I will resent any accusation of appeasement, but reality means that hard compromises must be made if peace is to have any chance. Tragically, peace and justice rarely go hand in hand. With time our weapons have made it too dangerous to pursue total defeat of our enemies. Ashes do not care for our moral righteousness.
If you want to defeat Russia, re-engage Kennan’s containment and wait until the demographic collapse crushes it.
When will that happen? In several decades time?. Ukraine was almost overrun and partitioned in 2022, of course if we include Crimea in 8 short years since then. Why shouldn’t all these ‘realpolitik’ arguments apply to Nazi Germany?
They did – the world war broke out because the Germans proved they couldn’t be trusted to adhere to a treaty they’d signed up to a few months prior by walking into Czechoslovakia, also showing that the war against Poland wasn’t just about Germans in Danzig/Gdansk (national self-determination being a principle the winners at Versailles struggled to coherently oppose), but had everything to do with the thousand-year Reich they kept banging on about, and with setting the stage for the showdown against the Soviets that had been on the cards since the Nazis came to power in 33.
So to answer your question, you can’t trust any settlement reached with a country that’s shown it won’t negotiate in good faith – and my understanding is it’s Ukraine that went most against the terms of both Minsk agreements although I’m sure there was plenty from both sides – and there’s also the straightforward fact that the Germans in 1939 didn’t have nuclear weapons. Had they been capable of wiping out London, Paris and Washington within the first few days of a war, presumably the Allies could have done the same to Berlin and the entire strategic situation would have been different. But in my view the equivalent to Ukraine in that analogy wouldn’t be Poland – it would be Austria. Would threatening nuclear war over the Anschluss have been credible? Almost certainly from Germany, almost certainly not from the Allies.
Minsk only bought time for Ukraine to rebuild its army.
Please educate yourself about what Minsk agreements were, how both sides are on record of openly saying they won’t adhere to them in certain cases and also familiarise yourself with the number of casualties in the last few years. The Minsk agreement argument is made from the same bullshit as “Ukrainian Nazis”.
What cannot be trusted is Russia first of all, starting with Budapest memorandum, guaranteeing Ukraine’s sovereignty for giving up nukes (alogside the US and the UK, who are actually following this up by arming Ukraine now). Furthermore, the fantasy narratives aside, Putin in his invasion speech clearly said Russia had no intention of occupying any of Ukraine — now, they’ve already annexed large parts of it with Putin boasting how Azov sea become “an internal one”. There are no agreements that Russia won’t break as soon as they have resources and half-decent support at home — they have already cut all the ties with the Western world, so they don’t care. Using nuclear tho, they will lose China and India, so there’s that.
You are right. Neither side was prepared to sign Minsk 1 or 2. Biden is said to have pleaded with Zelensky to sign it just prior to 24/2. The Agreement suggested recognising a degree of autonomy for the 2014 annexed borders. Zelensky refused. Not saying it’s good or bad: just putting it out there.
You are right. Neither side was prepared to sign Minsk 1 or 2. Biden is said to have pleaded with Zelensky to sign it just prior to 24/2. The Agreement suggested recognising a degree of autonomy for the 2014 annexed borders. Zelensky refused. Not saying it’s good or bad: just putting it out there.
Minsk only bought time for Ukraine to rebuild its army.
Please educate yourself about what Minsk agreements were, how both sides are on record of openly saying they won’t adhere to them in certain cases and also familiarise yourself with the number of casualties in the last few years. The Minsk agreement argument is made from the same bullshit as “Ukrainian Nazis”.
What cannot be trusted is Russia first of all, starting with Budapest memorandum, guaranteeing Ukraine’s sovereignty for giving up nukes (alogside the US and the UK, who are actually following this up by arming Ukraine now). Furthermore, the fantasy narratives aside, Putin in his invasion speech clearly said Russia had no intention of occupying any of Ukraine — now, they’ve already annexed large parts of it with Putin boasting how Azov sea become “an internal one”. There are no agreements that Russia won’t break as soon as they have resources and half-decent support at home — they have already cut all the ties with the Western world, so they don’t care. Using nuclear tho, they will lose China and India, so there’s that.
Great question. First of all, on the demographic pressure, Peter Zeihan does some great analysis on the fact that this decade Russian demography will implode. Containment would not need to last 50 years like it did during the Cold War.
To answer the second question, WW2 was the last war the world could fight to a one-sided conclusion without risking the end of humanity. We no longer have that luxury of a feel-good conclusion. The end of the Cold War was proof that such overwhelming victories now only come from raw patience and the steady accumulation of advantage, not hot headed crusades.
US had to admit temporary setbacks to sustain the long-term goal. Nobody accused Nixon of appeasement for leaving Vietnam.
I must look up Peter Zeihan as a reference as I have not heard of him. Is there a link you can forward, or should I just look it up on Google Scholar? Thank you.
Disunited Nations – Peter Zeihan, probably the most clear-eyed analysis on global demographics and the geopolitical pressures it produces.
Disunited Nations – Peter Zeihan, probably the most clear-eyed analysis on global demographics and the geopolitical pressures it produces.
I must look up Peter Zeihan as a reference as I have not heard of him. Is there a link you can forward, or should I just look it up on Google Scholar? Thank you.
They did – the world war broke out because the Germans proved they couldn’t be trusted to adhere to a treaty they’d signed up to a few months prior by walking into Czechoslovakia, also showing that the war against Poland wasn’t just about Germans in Danzig/Gdansk (national self-determination being a principle the winners at Versailles struggled to coherently oppose), but had everything to do with the thousand-year Reich they kept banging on about, and with setting the stage for the showdown against the Soviets that had been on the cards since the Nazis came to power in 33.
So to answer your question, you can’t trust any settlement reached with a country that’s shown it won’t negotiate in good faith – and my understanding is it’s Ukraine that went most against the terms of both Minsk agreements although I’m sure there was plenty from both sides – and there’s also the straightforward fact that the Germans in 1939 didn’t have nuclear weapons. Had they been capable of wiping out London, Paris and Washington within the first few days of a war, presumably the Allies could have done the same to Berlin and the entire strategic situation would have been different. But in my view the equivalent to Ukraine in that analogy wouldn’t be Poland – it would be Austria. Would threatening nuclear war over the Anschluss have been credible? Almost certainly from Germany, almost certainly not from the Allies.
Great question. First of all, on the demographic pressure, Peter Zeihan does some great analysis on the fact that this decade Russian demography will implode. Containment would not need to last 50 years like it did during the Cold War.
To answer the second question, WW2 was the last war the world could fight to a one-sided conclusion without risking the end of humanity. We no longer have that luxury of a feel-good conclusion. The end of the Cold War was proof that such overwhelming victories now only come from raw patience and the steady accumulation of advantage, not hot headed crusades.
US had to admit temporary setbacks to sustain the long-term goal. Nobody accused Nixon of appeasement for leaving Vietnam.
The two world wars were wars of attrition – one side became exhausted of men and materials….how long can we wait for Russia to ‘expire’?
We did it for 50 years with the USSR, which is why it was a Cold War, and it worked. But it required almost limitless patience. I would recommend reading Kennan’s original work on containment and the underlying understanding that beating the USSR without resulting in end of humanity would be a unique feat of grand strategy.
Indeed.
And that’s why the growing urge to give that grand containment strategy a sudden, violent push in the Ukraine is so damned tempting.
The West doesn’t think long-term. That’s why 50 years seems like forever. The Western/American mind is the kid in the backseat, 5 miles into the Big Road Trip asking, “Are we there yet?!”
Besides, our stunted version of RealPolitik tells us that Putin is gambling that we will overestimate his nuclear will and back away from doubling-down our Ukraine support. And so, in response to that stunted perception, we rationalize our Real Politik and we call that bluff. Except — if it’s not a bluff. If a seriously ill and aging Putin equates his own end with Russia’s…and is truly willing to sear his legacy into the Ukrainian soil as a ‘last gasp’??? Is calling that ‘bluff’ really worth that risk?
I loved it when he said “I’m not bluffing”.
That was months ago. Anybody remember?
If you don’t call his bluff, and give in, he will just use it again and again.
Question always is: where do you draw a line?
If, indeed, it was an initial bluff (albeit a bluff about a real capability) …and if, indeed, we continue to aggressively call that bluff….does the nature of the West’s response tend to push Russia to demonstrate that the bluff is no longer a bluff?
And then all the other questions:
Is a dying Putin willing to use tactical nukes in the Ukraine? If the alternative is a humiliated Russian military….I wouldn’t put it past himIs the West (NATO / the US willing to counter with equivalent tactical nukes? Where? Inside the Ukraine against Russian troops? Zelensky going to be in favor a small series of nuclear exchanges on Ukrainian soil? Plus — I can’t see us giving control of tactical nukes to Ukrainian commanders…so this would be a direct act of aggression from the West against Russia (not simply funding & equipping proxies)Would Putin respond against the West? Or at least the portion of the West which is nearby? (Poland, Germany, et al)?
All of this has already been gamed out countless times on both sides. Contingencies have already been built. The question is: how much risk of what type are we willing to assume to ‘defend’ a nation which is not NATO..is not us? Our traditional tripwires are much further west than Kyiv…do we really want to push them that much further east into a geography which has been traditionally Soviet?
Question always is: where do you draw a line?
If, indeed, it was an initial bluff (albeit a bluff about a real capability) …and if, indeed, we continue to aggressively call that bluff….does the nature of the West’s response tend to push Russia to demonstrate that the bluff is no longer a bluff?
And then all the other questions:
Is a dying Putin willing to use tactical nukes in the Ukraine? If the alternative is a humiliated Russian military….I wouldn’t put it past himIs the West (NATO / the US willing to counter with equivalent tactical nukes? Where? Inside the Ukraine against Russian troops? Zelensky going to be in favor a small series of nuclear exchanges on Ukrainian soil? Plus — I can’t see us giving control of tactical nukes to Ukrainian commanders…so this would be a direct act of aggression from the West against Russia (not simply funding & equipping proxies)Would Putin respond against the West? Or at least the portion of the West which is nearby? (Poland, Germany, et al)?
All of this has already been gamed out countless times on both sides. Contingencies have already been built. The question is: how much risk of what type are we willing to assume to ‘defend’ a nation which is not NATO..is not us? Our traditional tripwires are much further west than Kyiv…do we really want to push them that much further east into a geography which has been traditionally Soviet?
I loved it when he said “I’m not bluffing”.
That was months ago. Anybody remember?
If you don’t call his bluff, and give in, he will just use it again and again.
Indeed.
And that’s why the growing urge to give that grand containment strategy a sudden, violent push in the Ukraine is so damned tempting.
The West doesn’t think long-term. That’s why 50 years seems like forever. The Western/American mind is the kid in the backseat, 5 miles into the Big Road Trip asking, “Are we there yet?!”
Besides, our stunted version of RealPolitik tells us that Putin is gambling that we will overestimate his nuclear will and back away from doubling-down our Ukraine support. And so, in response to that stunted perception, we rationalize our Real Politik and we call that bluff. Except — if it’s not a bluff. If a seriously ill and aging Putin equates his own end with Russia’s…and is truly willing to sear his legacy into the Ukrainian soil as a ‘last gasp’??? Is calling that ‘bluff’ really worth that risk?
We did it for 50 years with the USSR, which is why it was a Cold War, and it worked. But it required almost limitless patience. I would recommend reading Kennan’s original work on containment and the underlying understanding that beating the USSR without resulting in end of humanity would be a unique feat of grand strategy.
Totally agree with the first part of your argument. It’s like the lead-in to, the prosecution of, and the Versailles peace after World War I. And for most observers, a game, not real in the least. But why we would want to defeat Russia and run a repeat of the cycle right back to 1991 where this all began is something you might want to consider. What Ukraine is experiencing today is a direct result of US policies since 1991. Many US policy-makers warned of it for decades, including Kennan. But they were all well-and-truly sidelined. Out with the irresolute doddery, deluded, half-measures types from the past. In with the new no-half-measures people of the future. In with the muscular democratic empire that will last a thousand years.
You sing the same songs that I’ve heard for 60+ years.
If anything goes south, it’s because of stupid US policies.
Much of the stupidity can be traced to the American Empire, the America that had more to do with the dismantling of the European empires than any other force. Ultimately even the Russian Empire was dismantled. As another commentator noted disparagingly, the American Empire is one of democratic, self-governing states. It is truly a new definition of Empire.
Anticipating another trope, Vietnam was a rational, though mistaken, response in the context of the USSR swallowing Eastern Europe, the demonstrated central direction of Communism from Moscow, and the Korean War.
Without a free press but for the likes of UnHerd, which publishes arguments such as Thomas’s and the opposite, there is no real self-governing democracy. And that, my friend, is our world.
Completely free of the usual crazy conspiracist nonsense, of which most of us buy zip, zero, none, one can say that Orwell is genuinely upon us.
Andrew, you’re reading Unherd, therefore give it the respect it deserves. Publishing an Op Ed does not mean that the Editors agree with it. They’re publishing an Opinion, and that Opinion has generated a discussion where people read views that may differ to their own. Isn’t that the point?
Samantha, please give my views the respect they deserve. In my comment, I have made precisely the point you make. That UnHerd is a true free press because while Thomas’s arguments are aired, so are the opposite. It appears you take umbrage at my comment because you dislike my views, which is fine for me, I can live with it, though not you. Why else jump to the wrong conclusion and offer a dollop of patronizing advice into the bargain?
My apologies Andrew. I re read your post and I misinterpreted it.
Thanks kindly, Samantha. I really do value this stellar publication. Journalism that rises above journalism. But thanks, Samantha. No harm meant either way.
Thanks kindly, Samantha. I really do value this stellar publication. Journalism that rises above journalism. But thanks, Samantha. No harm meant either way.
My apologies Andrew. I re read your post and I misinterpreted it.
Samantha, please give my views the respect they deserve. In my comment, I have made precisely the point you make. That UnHerd is a true free press because while Thomas’s arguments are aired, so are the opposite. It appears you take umbrage at my comment because you dislike my views, which is fine for me, I can live with it, though not you. Why else jump to the wrong conclusion and offer a dollop of patronizing advice into the bargain?
Andrew, you’re reading Unherd, therefore give it the respect it deserves. Publishing an Op Ed does not mean that the Editors agree with it. They’re publishing an Opinion, and that Opinion has generated a discussion where people read views that may differ to their own. Isn’t that the point?
PS – I used to rail against those who criticized US foreign policy, and was not only supportive of it, but very pleased to be involved. So no, my friend, my views are very, very, very far removed from some sort of leftist reactionary trope. To the contrary, they are drawn unwillingly from close experience, gradually over a long period, all of which leaves me saddened and disappointed. And I disagree now with the motives of the reactionary left. Even if some conclusions may coincide, I do not sympathize with where they’re coming from or why they are critical. My view is that political people are neuropaths and all that counts is outcomes for individuals. A politically-centric world-view is to me a sure sign of a neurotic mind.
… which is why we need to massively de-centralise our politics.
Absolutely, Hugh, and to actively counter our statist political monomania. It’s become the core of our anti-cultural culture.
Absolutely, Hugh, and to actively counter our statist political monomania. It’s become the core of our anti-cultural culture.
… which is why we need to massively de-centralise our politics.
Without a free press but for the likes of UnHerd, which publishes arguments such as Thomas’s and the opposite, there is no real self-governing democracy. And that, my friend, is our world.
Completely free of the usual crazy conspiracist nonsense, of which most of us buy zip, zero, none, one can say that Orwell is genuinely upon us.
PS – I used to rail against those who criticized US foreign policy, and was not only supportive of it, but very pleased to be involved. So no, my friend, my views are very, very, very far removed from some sort of leftist reactionary trope. To the contrary, they are drawn unwillingly from close experience, gradually over a long period, all of which leaves me saddened and disappointed. And I disagree now with the motives of the reactionary left. Even if some conclusions may coincide, I do not sympathize with where they’re coming from or why they are critical. My view is that political people are neuropaths and all that counts is outcomes for individuals. A politically-centric world-view is to me a sure sign of a neurotic mind.
You sing the same songs that I’ve heard for 60+ years.
If anything goes south, it’s because of stupid US policies.
Much of the stupidity can be traced to the American Empire, the America that had more to do with the dismantling of the European empires than any other force. Ultimately even the Russian Empire was dismantled. As another commentator noted disparagingly, the American Empire is one of democratic, self-governing states. It is truly a new definition of Empire.
Anticipating another trope, Vietnam was a rational, though mistaken, response in the context of the USSR swallowing Eastern Europe, the demonstrated central direction of Communism from Moscow, and the Korean War.
Winston Churchill once said: ‘The further back you look, the further forward you can see’.
While he probably can’t be blamed for Marxism, Hegel once said: ‘We learn from history that man does not learn from history.’ No good looking back if you’re looking through a kaleidoscope.
To me one of the noble things about Churchill was that he ended up being life-long friends even with people with whom he vehemently disagreed. Perhaps the more he disagreed with them at first, the closer he became later. A marker of sense and sanity.
Here here Andrew.
Here here Andrew.
While he probably can’t be blamed for Marxism, Hegel once said: ‘We learn from history that man does not learn from history.’ No good looking back if you’re looking through a kaleidoscope.
To me one of the noble things about Churchill was that he ended up being life-long friends even with people with whom he vehemently disagreed. Perhaps the more he disagreed with them at first, the closer he became later. A marker of sense and sanity.
When will that happen? In several decades time?. Ukraine was almost overrun and partitioned in 2022, of course if we include Crimea in 8 short years since then. Why shouldn’t all these ‘realpolitik’ arguments apply to Nazi Germany?
The two world wars were wars of attrition – one side became exhausted of men and materials….how long can we wait for Russia to ‘expire’?
Totally agree with the first part of your argument. It’s like the lead-in to, the prosecution of, and the Versailles peace after World War I. And for most observers, a game, not real in the least. But why we would want to defeat Russia and run a repeat of the cycle right back to 1991 where this all began is something you might want to consider. What Ukraine is experiencing today is a direct result of US policies since 1991. Many US policy-makers warned of it for decades, including Kennan. But they were all well-and-truly sidelined. Out with the irresolute doddery, deluded, half-measures types from the past. In with the new no-half-measures people of the future. In with the muscular democratic empire that will last a thousand years.
Winston Churchill once said: ‘The further back you look, the further forward you can see’.
I am glad that this topic is increasingly talked about seriously. I can’t believe the amount of jingoism that has spread throughout the West, as if all previous disasters have been forgot overnight.
Truth is that both the US and Russia botched the Ukraine game and now, like failed gamblers, are trying to raise the stakes to get any win out of it, but this can only end in disaster. Unlike during the Cold War, where high level talks were essential to prevent escalation, this time all the red lines are violated, escalation risk be damned.
I can’t understand how people don’t realise that the great majority of wars ended in compromise. Moral purity and maximalist aims result in endless suffering (c.f. WW1). WW2 was pursued to such an end and we rightly celebrate that, but one should not neglect that it is also the most destructive war in history thus far. Not saying anyone should roll over, and I will resent any accusation of appeasement, but reality means that hard compromises must be made if peace is to have any chance. Tragically, peace and justice rarely go hand in hand. With time our weapons have made it too dangerous to pursue total defeat of our enemies. Ashes do not care for our moral righteousness.
If you want to defeat Russia, re-engage Kennan’s containment and wait until the demographic collapse crushes it.
This is the crux of the argument for me.
Yes.
But “Western” strategists aren’t fighting the war. Not sure the strategists “botched” everything. Anyway making sure Putin doesn’t win in Ukraine is very different from Afghanistan an Irag. The “West” cannot afford to lose..
Ukraine is nothing like Afghanistan.
I think that is what I said….
Happy to read your thoughts Isabel, if you write anywhere?
Happy to read your thoughts Isabel, if you write anywhere?
I think that is what I said….
I think I disagree with all of your statements above.
Happy to read and discuss your argument Emre.
Ok, let’s start with: “The “West” cannot afford to lose..”
What makes it impossible for the West to reach an agreement here. For example, can the West really not afford to lose Crimea?
Ok, let’s start with: “The “West” cannot afford to lose..”
What makes it impossible for the West to reach an agreement here. For example, can the West really not afford to lose Crimea?
Happy to read and discuss your argument Emre.
Ukraine is nothing like Afghanistan.
I think I disagree with all of your statements above.
Yes.
But “Western” strategists aren’t fighting the war. Not sure the strategists “botched” everything. Anyway making sure Putin doesn’t win in Ukraine is very different from Afghanistan an Irag. The “West” cannot afford to lose..
This is the crux of the argument for me.
The title of this article is silly. If we were at war with Russia, they would have already been driven from Ukraine with their tails between their legs. The US military could destroy Russia’s in a long weekend.
But, why shouldn’t we confront Russia? They are a third rate power that has violated all international norms by invading Ukraine. The only reason they have any standing in the world is their nuclear weapons, which are useless in a war of conquest.
Any escalation hurts Russia and helps the West. If they attack a NATO country, NATO air and missile power destroys their military, with ease. If they use a tactical nuke, NATO air and missile power destroys their military, again with ease. If they use strategic nukes the world ends. Hard to see the upside for Russia in that.
To defeat Russia you’d have to take Moscow and occupy the country, perhaps for decades.
Mmm, worked well for Napoleon didn’t it?
Not true at all. We defeated them in the Cold War without invading at all. They’re still getting over it though – still seem to think they’re a superpower/want to be. We just need to keep them in their box and stop them spreading trouble and misery around the world (which is what they’ll do if we do nothing).
Technically true but that is not what the “West” wants to do. It just wants Putin’s Russia out of Ukraine.
We keep on hearing about Putin’s imminent death – where are we with that?
Nobody knows really. Usually you dont travel around with your own medical entourage if you are fine though.
Nobody knows really. Usually you dont travel around with your own medical entourage if you are fine though.
To get Putin’s Russia out of Ukraine militarily you have, as I said, to take Moscow and occupy the country, perhaps for decades. Even if their army was to be entirely driven from the country the fighting would go on with money and arms flowing from Russia to the separatists in Donbas and Crimea.
To end this war you have to find a constitutional solution for Ukraine that induces the separatists to abandon their alliance with Moscow.
Anyone who’s read a history book can see this quite clearly. Unfortunately there are very few people like that in Washington.
No. Looking at Russian history, precedent suggests you just have to defeat the current Russian government severely enough and some sort of revolution will occur: Russo-Japanese War, the 1905 Revolution resulting in the establishment of the Duma and limits on the Tsar’s autocratic powers; WW I, the Bolshevik Revolution; Afghanistan (well, that and a few other setbacks in the last phase of the Cold War), the turn to glasnost and perestroika and with them the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Good luck with that.
Good luck with that.
No. Looking at Russian history, precedent suggests you just have to defeat the current Russian government severely enough and some sort of revolution will occur: Russo-Japanese War, the 1905 Revolution resulting in the establishment of the Duma and limits on the Tsar’s autocratic powers; WW I, the Bolshevik Revolution; Afghanistan (well, that and a few other setbacks in the last phase of the Cold War), the turn to glasnost and perestroika and with them the collapse of the Soviet Union.
We keep on hearing about Putin’s imminent death – where are we with that?
To get Putin’s Russia out of Ukraine militarily you have, as I said, to take Moscow and occupy the country, perhaps for decades. Even if their army was to be entirely driven from the country the fighting would go on with money and arms flowing from Russia to the separatists in Donbas and Crimea.
To end this war you have to find a constitutional solution for Ukraine that induces the separatists to abandon their alliance with Moscow.
Anyone who’s read a history book can see this quite clearly. Unfortunately there are very few people like that in Washington.
Mmm, worked well for Napoleon didn’t it?
Not true at all. We defeated them in the Cold War without invading at all. They’re still getting over it though – still seem to think they’re a superpower/want to be. We just need to keep them in their box and stop them spreading trouble and misery around the world (which is what they’ll do if we do nothing).
Technically true but that is not what the “West” wants to do. It just wants Putin’s Russia out of Ukraine.
The myth of US military might. Let’s look at their record. 1st World War arrived late. 2nd World War arrived late. Korean War draw. Bay of Pigs lost. 1st Gulf War inconclusive (see 2nd Gulf War). Afghanistan lost. 2nd Gulf War total balls up. Yes they did overthrow a government in Grenada but against anyone armed with more than a machete and a bunch of bananas it’s hardly a performance that would fill anyone with confidence.
You forgot their epic conquest of Panama.
Getting the gist that Charles Stanhope is the historical scholar/point of reference? Loving it! I’m open to learning always
Getting the gist that Charles Stanhope is the historical scholar/point of reference? Loving it! I’m open to learning always
Operation Praying Mantis turned out OK and that’s what it would be like.
Cold War (in which the Berlin Airlift, Korea, Vietnam, the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, Nicaragua, Angola, Grenada — which mattered more than you think since it invalidated the Brezhnev Doctrine — Afghanistan — that one proxy on the American side — and the final push, faking better telemetry results on the SDI anti-missile tests to freek out the Soviet General Staff, were all just campaigns): Victory!
(cf. also France in the 100 Years War.)
You forget Bosnia and Kosovo.
The US came out pretty well in both.
Indeed, a good model for Donbas and Crimea.
You forgot their epic conquest of Panama.
Operation Praying Mantis turned out OK and that’s what it would be like.
Cold War (in which the Berlin Airlift, Korea, Vietnam, the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, Nicaragua, Angola, Grenada — which mattered more than you think since it invalidated the Brezhnev Doctrine — Afghanistan — that one proxy on the American side — and the final push, faking better telemetry results on the SDI anti-missile tests to freek out the Soviet General Staff, were all just campaigns): Victory!
(cf. also France in the 100 Years War.)
You forget Bosnia and Kosovo.
The US came out pretty well in both.
Indeed, a good model for Donbas and Crimea.
The US military could destroy Russia’s in a long weekend
Sure. Their track record is great.
The U.S. military today is more concerned with providing career paths for transgendered women than prosecuting war. How can someone kill an enemy when they spend time training not offend people who are different? Just imagine for a minute what would happen to an openly gay soldier captured behind Russian lines?
The American fringe news boards like to make many jokes about the woke in your army. Is it really that bad?
Their Army maybe rubbish but their nuclear submarine force, and in particular their ‘Ohio class’ subs, could completely destroy either Russia or China in less than hours.
Perhaps there is an Admiral Strangelove in the wings.
Well I’ll take comfort in that I suppose, I was hoping it wouldn’t come to that kind of thing, I imagine they will shoot back.
That is what most thought in 1914 sadly.
In February 2022 we were being told it’ll all be over by Xmas. But not which Xmas.
In February 2022 we were being told it’ll all be over by Xmas. But not which Xmas.
With any luck they won’t have a chance to shoot back. Timing is everything in WAR!
That is what most thought in 1914 sadly.
With any luck they won’t have a chance to shoot back. Timing is everything in WAR!
You’re good Charles! Ohio class? Impressed.
Well I’ll take comfort in that I suppose, I was hoping it wouldn’t come to that kind of thing, I imagine they will shoot back.
You’re good Charles! Ohio class? Impressed.
Their Army maybe rubbish but their nuclear submarine force, and in particular their ‘Ohio class’ subs, could completely destroy either Russia or China in less than hours.
Perhaps there is an Admiral Strangelove in the wings.
A sideline. I think the US have been pretty good so far, given they are dealing with provoking a nuclear power …
The American fringe news boards like to make many jokes about the woke in your army. Is it really that bad?
A sideline. I think the US have been pretty good so far, given they are dealing with provoking a nuclear power …
The U.S. military today is more concerned with providing career paths for transgendered women than prosecuting war. How can someone kill an enemy when they spend time training not offend people who are different? Just imagine for a minute what would happen to an openly gay soldier captured behind Russian lines?
The ‘upside’ for Russia? Hell, the upside is we lose too.
Have you never experienced that nihilistic rage (most of us, as kids, do so regularly)? If I can’t do X then, by God, NO ONE is going to be able to do X — so there!
One thing to feel that and do that if we’re all 7 years old … and what’s being fought about is a Milky Way candy bar that you just threw in the mud so I wouldn’t get any either. Another thing if we’re talking about the World and the Strangelovian arithmetic of loss: “Mr. President, I’m not saying we wouldn’t get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.”
Driven from Ukraine I doubt that,currently the US military has a lot of technology but not currently the manpower to either fight it or more importantly maintain it to fight.
Then there is the question of ability to replace losses incurred in a conventional war, against a military peer, American industry has been hollowed out over recent history and currently has problems replacing stock sent to the Ukraine so what chance in a full scale war against Russia.
Further I don’t believe that the American people would be very committed, Its all a log way a way its not in their interest.that may change should a nuke arrive over Washington but for now.
No I think you are seriously deluded if you think the US could take Russia in short order.
Like “we” did in Afghanistan.
To defeat Russia you’d have to take Moscow and occupy the country, perhaps for decades.
The myth of US military might. Let’s look at their record. 1st World War arrived late. 2nd World War arrived late. Korean War draw. Bay of Pigs lost. 1st Gulf War inconclusive (see 2nd Gulf War). Afghanistan lost. 2nd Gulf War total balls up. Yes they did overthrow a government in Grenada but against anyone armed with more than a machete and a bunch of bananas it’s hardly a performance that would fill anyone with confidence.
The US military could destroy Russia’s in a long weekend
Sure. Their track record is great.
The ‘upside’ for Russia? Hell, the upside is we lose too.
Have you never experienced that nihilistic rage (most of us, as kids, do so regularly)? If I can’t do X then, by God, NO ONE is going to be able to do X — so there!
One thing to feel that and do that if we’re all 7 years old … and what’s being fought about is a Milky Way candy bar that you just threw in the mud so I wouldn’t get any either. Another thing if we’re talking about the World and the Strangelovian arithmetic of loss: “Mr. President, I’m not saying we wouldn’t get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.”
Driven from Ukraine I doubt that,currently the US military has a lot of technology but not currently the manpower to either fight it or more importantly maintain it to fight.
Then there is the question of ability to replace losses incurred in a conventional war, against a military peer, American industry has been hollowed out over recent history and currently has problems replacing stock sent to the Ukraine so what chance in a full scale war against Russia.
Further I don’t believe that the American people would be very committed, Its all a log way a way its not in their interest.that may change should a nuke arrive over Washington but for now.
No I think you are seriously deluded if you think the US could take Russia in short order.
Like “we” did in Afghanistan.
The title of this article is silly. If we were at war with Russia, they would have already been driven from Ukraine with their tails between their legs. The US military could destroy Russia’s in a long weekend.
But, why shouldn’t we confront Russia? They are a third rate power that has violated all international norms by invading Ukraine. The only reason they have any standing in the world is their nuclear weapons, which are useless in a war of conquest.
Any escalation hurts Russia and helps the West. If they attack a NATO country, NATO air and missile power destroys their military, with ease. If they use a tactical nuke, NATO air and missile power destroys their military, again with ease. If they use strategic nukes the world ends. Hard to see the upside for Russia in that.
What if China decides it would be an easy way to defeat the west by sending equipment to Russia? They can rightly claim that they aren’t at war with anyone, just as NATO isn’t at war with Russia. If the West gets into an industrial competition, it will lose as it has spent decades destroying its industrial base.
Not sure China wants to defeat the West – their ties with us are much more important than those with Russia; even though they appreciate Russia’s support at the UN, and as a distraction from their own human rights issues etc. A big difference, I think, between the Chinese system and the Russian – the former are essentially forward looking, pragmatic, are taking the people forward with them, and will be the/ a dominant power for centuries to come; the latter…not so much. More likely China would welcome a collapsed Russia, as they could expand into the vaccum – much as they are doing elsewhere around the world.
To a point. Depends what is meant by “defeat”. China is playing the “long game”. At this stage China just wants to absorb Taiwan into its empire and push back against the “West”. It not so much wants to conquer the world but be left alone to do what it wants.
Indeed. As Ian Stewart says below: ‘China needs the west for at least the next twenty years’.
Indeed. As Ian Stewart says below: ‘China needs the west for at least the next twenty years’.
Throughout its history China has oscillated between periods ‘Empire’ and periods of either chaos or conquest.
I suspect that it is now on the cusp of another period of chaos, and deservedly so after its simply appalling record of barbarism and savagery since at least 1945.
Whenever China is ‘quiet’, it’s merely preparation. As Deng Xiaoping said, ‘Hide your strength, bide your time’. It’s all ‘hidden’ in the economic dependancies (allegiances) of the BRI.
Whenever China is ‘quiet’, it’s merely preparation. As Deng Xiaoping said, ‘Hide your strength, bide your time’. It’s all ‘hidden’ in the economic dependancies (allegiances) of the BRI.
To a point. Depends what is meant by “defeat”. China is playing the “long game”. At this stage China just wants to absorb Taiwan into its empire and push back against the “West”. It not so much wants to conquer the world but be left alone to do what it wants.
Throughout its history China has oscillated between periods ‘Empire’ and periods of either chaos or conquest.
I suspect that it is now on the cusp of another period of chaos, and deservedly so after its simply appalling record of barbarism and savagery since at least 1945.
No chance. China needs the west for at least the next twenty years.
China will “defeat” the West exactly by working with it, not fighting against it.
Working ‘with it’? China is everywhere in the world creating economic dependencies that can be leveraged when it comes to voting in UN institutions. Not to mention their purpose built islands in the South China Sea. Just saying. Their expansion is more covert, shall we say.
I think the US Navy has the measure of Fu-Manchu & Co, and will confine them to dustbin of history in due course.
I think the US Navy has the measure of Fu-Manchu & Co, and will confine them to dustbin of history in due course.
Working ‘with it’? China is everywhere in the world creating economic dependencies that can be leveraged when it comes to voting in UN institutions. Not to mention their purpose built islands in the South China Sea. Just saying. Their expansion is more covert, shall we say.
Not sure China wants to defeat the West – their ties with us are much more important than those with Russia; even though they appreciate Russia’s support at the UN, and as a distraction from their own human rights issues etc. A big difference, I think, between the Chinese system and the Russian – the former are essentially forward looking, pragmatic, are taking the people forward with them, and will be the/ a dominant power for centuries to come; the latter…not so much. More likely China would welcome a collapsed Russia, as they could expand into the vaccum – much as they are doing elsewhere around the world.
No chance. China needs the west for at least the next twenty years.
China will “defeat” the West exactly by working with it, not fighting against it.
What if China decides it would be an easy way to defeat the west by sending equipment to Russia? They can rightly claim that they aren’t at war with anyone, just as NATO isn’t at war with Russia. If the West gets into an industrial competition, it will lose as it has spent decades destroying its industrial base.
The Overton window has shifted big time. I’ve got real mixed feelings about this conflict. I fully support the Ukraine to defend itself, but I have zero confidence in the European and American leadership. The fate of the world rests on the shoulders of Biden and Putin? God help us all.
And s/he’s probably not that interested.
Actually, they seem to have a very intelligent strategy. Their gradual approach seems to have worked well.
Each time more and better weapons are delivered, the increase is so gradual that even the Kremlin takes little umbrage.
A “boiled frog approach.”
And the language about retaking Crimea and Donbas may just be a way of signalling to Putin that if he carries on without seeking real negotiations he’ll end up losing what he had in February 2022. That may be the calculation, risky tho it is.
Very good point.
Very good point.
You think this is a strategy?. It may well work out that way but more by luck than judgement I would say. They seem to be constantly ill prepared at each stage.
Yes, it’s obviously a strategy.
Some people on here seem to think that the US military are universally ignorant and incompetent. I bet not one of them has any knowledge of the US military command or the calibre of their leaders (who are a lot smarter than the armchair critics here seem to think).
The only operational difficulty the US are having with their strategy is that various European nations are being – quite typically – obstructive/not pulling their weight. But I guess they’re used to that by now.
We don’t think they are ignorant and incompetent. We KNOW they are in the pocket of the military industrial sector and that’s a major driver in all the wars USA involves itself in. A quick resolution doesn’t keep the dollars flooding in so it’s a long and protracted war we get.
Potentially, those pesky europeans might have been more willing if this wasn’t the lived experience for most of their ‘allies’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._friendly-fire_incidents_since_1945_with_British_victims
Jonny, do you seriously think that this is about making big bucks in the ‘military industrial complex’? With Wikipedia as your point of reference? I recognise that this is a much posited framework for many people. ‘A quick resolution doesn’t keep the dollars flowing in?’ Okay. I hear you. Let’s look at what’s happening right now with both sides preparing for an offensive. As you know, when negotiations occur, they usually settle on the front lines that exist at the time of said negotiations. So, I’m not sure where you live. Let’s say that, wherever that country is, you were invaded by a third party who tried, violently and with arms, to annex some of your territory. Do you accept that violent attempt at annexation, or do you look to allies for help? Do you think that the profits being made in the ‘military industrial complexes’ are the primary drivers of this war?
Decisions about war and peace in the US don’t really go through the board rooms of arms dealers.
Factually, most US industrialists are not “merchants of death” and do not profit from war.
And people who do make weapons don’t necessarily want war. They lobby for contracts for big ticket items.
And so far Ukraine has received almost none of those.
But agreed, it’s the simplest way to condemn war without putting any thought into it.
Jonny, do you seriously think that this is about making big bucks in the ‘military industrial complex’? With Wikipedia as your point of reference? I recognise that this is a much posited framework for many people. ‘A quick resolution doesn’t keep the dollars flowing in?’ Okay. I hear you. Let’s look at what’s happening right now with both sides preparing for an offensive. As you know, when negotiations occur, they usually settle on the front lines that exist at the time of said negotiations. So, I’m not sure where you live. Let’s say that, wherever that country is, you were invaded by a third party who tried, violently and with arms, to annex some of your territory. Do you accept that violent attempt at annexation, or do you look to allies for help? Do you think that the profits being made in the ‘military industrial complexes’ are the primary drivers of this war?
Decisions about war and peace in the US don’t really go through the board rooms of arms dealers.
Factually, most US industrialists are not “merchants of death” and do not profit from war.
And people who do make weapons don’t necessarily want war. They lobby for contracts for big ticket items.
And so far Ukraine has received almost none of those.
But agreed, it’s the simplest way to condemn war without putting any thought into it.
‘(who are a lot smarter than the armchair critics here seem to think)’
Funniest thing I’ve read all day. Your evidence is? Do have first hand knowledge of us military command then? Have you been sizing up the ‘calibre of their leaders’? Do you use biden as a yard stick? How much ‘calibre’ do think he’s got?
Given where we were on 25 Feb, and where we are now, the US military commanders seems light years ahead of Putin’s commanders.
Hello Mr logan. Shall we both play nicely today?
I was really teasing Mr B, I am very much hoping you are correct.
Hello Mr logan. Shall we both play nicely today?
I was really teasing Mr B, I am very much hoping you are correct.
Given where we were on 25 Feb, and where we are now, the US military commanders seems light years ahead of Putin’s commanders.
I think the US response has been great.
Is this the same General Milley who tells us climate change is one of the biggest military threat facing the US? Is this the same military leadership that abandons meritocracy in favour of DEI? Is this the same military that is absolutely floundering when it comes to recruitment?
We don’t think they are ignorant and incompetent. We KNOW they are in the pocket of the military industrial sector and that’s a major driver in all the wars USA involves itself in. A quick resolution doesn’t keep the dollars flooding in so it’s a long and protracted war we get.
Potentially, those pesky europeans might have been more willing if this wasn’t the lived experience for most of their ‘allies’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._friendly-fire_incidents_since_1945_with_British_victims
‘(who are a lot smarter than the armchair critics here seem to think)’
Funniest thing I’ve read all day. Your evidence is? Do have first hand knowledge of us military command then? Have you been sizing up the ‘calibre of their leaders’? Do you use biden as a yard stick? How much ‘calibre’ do think he’s got?
I think the US response has been great.
Is this the same General Milley who tells us climate change is one of the biggest military threat facing the US? Is this the same military leadership that abandons meritocracy in favour of DEI? Is this the same military that is absolutely floundering when it comes to recruitment?
I disagree. I think the responses have had a lot of coordinated forethought. We are dealing with a nuclear power. I honestly can’t fault the response to date.
Yes, it’s obviously a strategy.
Some people on here seem to think that the US military are universally ignorant and incompetent. I bet not one of them has any knowledge of the US military command or the calibre of their leaders (who are a lot smarter than the armchair critics here seem to think).
The only operational difficulty the US are having with their strategy is that various European nations are being – quite typically – obstructive/not pulling their weight. But I guess they’re used to that by now.
I disagree. I think the responses have had a lot of coordinated forethought. We are dealing with a nuclear power. I honestly can’t fault the response to date.
It works and works and works. Until it doesn’t.
And the language about retaking Crimea and Donbas may just be a way of signalling to Putin that if he carries on without seeking real negotiations he’ll end up losing what he had in February 2022. That may be the calculation, risky tho it is.
You think this is a strategy?. It may well work out that way but more by luck than judgement I would say. They seem to be constantly ill prepared at each stage.
It works and works and works. Until it doesn’t.
There’s always CornPop!
What on earth is that? A respected academic resource?
What on earth is that? A respected academic resource?
May I ask a question? What is the ‘Overton window’? Happy to google but happier still to rely on your expertise as a first point of reference.
The Overton window is the shifting of acceptable policy options. What is considered unacceptable on any given day is suddenly acceptable a week or a month or a year later. But it’s not usually sudden. The window is typically moved incrementally. A small shift here, another one there and boom, you’re on the other side of the room. Kind of insidious really, depending on your perspective on any given issue.
The Overton window is the shifting of acceptable policy options. What is considered unacceptable on any given day is suddenly acceptable a week or a month or a year later. But it’s not usually sudden. The window is typically moved incrementally. A small shift here, another one there and boom, you’re on the other side of the room. Kind of insidious really, depending on your perspective on any given issue.
And s/he’s probably not that interested.
Actually, they seem to have a very intelligent strategy. Their gradual approach seems to have worked well.
Each time more and better weapons are delivered, the increase is so gradual that even the Kremlin takes little umbrage.
A “boiled frog approach.”
There’s always CornPop!
May I ask a question? What is the ‘Overton window’? Happy to google but happier still to rely on your expertise as a first point of reference.
The Overton window has shifted big time. I’ve got real mixed feelings about this conflict. I fully support the Ukraine to defend itself, but I have zero confidence in the European and American leadership. The fate of the world rests on the shoulders of Biden and Putin? God help us all.
That Russia perceives Ukraine “to be an existential threat” is it rather disingenuous way of saying “the thugs in the Kremlin have resurrected the post WWII propaganda tactic of accusing independent-minded people of being “fascist” as a pretext to deprive them of their rights”.
That Russia perceives Ukraine “to be an existential threat” is it rather disingenuous way of saying “the thugs in the Kremlin have resurrected the post WWII propaganda tactic of accusing independent-minded people of being “fascist” as a pretext to deprive them of their rights”.
Thank you for this article. We should be seeing many more such articles and discussions across the media but, of course, we don’t and probably never will.
The Biden administration, and some (not all) European leaders, have constantly raised the stakes, crossed the various red lines mentioned by the author, and have convinced themselves Russia will never use nukes. That’s what Biden’s strategy in Ukraine ultimately rests on: that Russia is a nuclear power they can treat like a non-nuclear power. That strategy will work until the day it doesn’t.
I am confused by talk of negotiation. If Russia invaded the United States, would we “negotiate” and give them part of our land? Or if strangers invaded your home, would you negotiate and let them live with you? I know the factor of nuclear bombs exists, but what is one to do? Just keep letting the bully get his way?? Surely some other solution exists. I am just not inventive enough to think of it. Maybe others can think outside the box.
You see – you ask a very straw man question because : Russia DID NOT invade USA.
It is none of our business. No reason to cause a global depression, cause a million deaths in the reigon from fighting, and cause a billion to starve in the coming Global Famine this IS Causing! No Need to cause WWIII over the two most corrupt nations in the world – who have been at war as often as not, for 2000+ years, having a regional conflict.
If you and your neighbor get into a fight is is reasonable we kill both of you, burn down both houses and make your families refugees to stop the fight? Because you think that is the best response.
I’d say it’s more like preventing an adult beating up a child personally, rather than your pyromaniac analogy
“…We wants it…precious…”
Indeed, the fact that the people of Ukraine overwhelmingly voted for Zelensky, and to join the EU–plus the fact that five European countries abut Ukraine has nothing to do with it.
If Putin wants it, he must have it. Or at least a consolation prize.
ALL shall have prizes!
That argument only works for democracies that are ethnically and culturally homogeneous – otherwise it’s simply the tyranny of the majority.
And your alternative to majority rule is…
…minority rule?
Proportional representation, regional assemblies, power-sharing as in NI … there are lots of constitutional ways that hostile minorities can be reconciled. This war won’t be over until the separatists have a strong inducement to end their alliance with Moscow. Continuing to kill them in large numbers isn’t likely to achieve that.
The separatists cannot be induced to ‘end their alliance with Moscow’ as long as they think there is a chance they can stay with Russia – and as long as as Russia keeps helping and financing them. Being an ethnic minority in someone else nation state is not an ideal position, particularly after you took the wrong side in a war. They might be convinced to make the best of a bad job and stop making trouble if they got a good offer *after* it was clear that anschluss back to Russia was nto on the cards.
The separatists cannot be induced to ‘end their alliance with Moscow’ as long as they think there is a chance they can stay with Russia – and as long as as Russia keeps helping and financing them. Being an ethnic minority in someone else nation state is not an ideal position, particularly after you took the wrong side in a war. They might be convinced to make the best of a bad job and stop making trouble if they got a good offer *after* it was clear that anschluss back to Russia was nto on the cards.
Proportional representation, regional assemblies, power-sharing as in NI … there are lots of constitutional ways that hostile minorities can be reconciled. This war won’t be over until the separatists have a strong inducement to end their alliance with Moscow. Continuing to kill them in large numbers isn’t likely to achieve that.
And your alternative to majority rule is…
…minority rule?
That argument only works for democracies that are ethnically and culturally homogeneous – otherwise it’s simply the tyranny of the majority.
Clearly, history isn’t your strong point. Russia and Ukraine have ‘not been in a war’ for 2000 years since neither country has existed for that long, boundaries have hugely changed and for most of the last 300 years the majority, (but not all) of the Ukrainian speaking territories were conquered by Russia.
Russia invaded Ukraine, just as Hitler invaded Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland. Poland by the way is hawkish on this issue, having been dismembered twice in history by – Russia and Germany (in fact Prussia). A very few on your side of the argument, but only a very few, make the analogous point that Britain and later America should not have fought Germany in the 1940s. Why did we?
However it is undeniable that 1914 & 1939 were catastrophic for both Britain and the British Empire.
As a neutral observer, the famed Spanish philosopher Georges Santayana put it thus in 1912:
“Never since the heroic days of Greece has the
world had such a sweet, just, boyish master. It will be a black day for the human race when scientific blackguards, conspirators, churls, and fanatics manage to supplant him.”
For three centuries we had managed the business of war rather well, and much profit and plunder was the happy result. However all was to be thrown away by the manic decisions of both Asquith and Chamberlain.
This time we must ask ourselves is Ukraine really worth a Nuclear War?
At a minimum you need to ask yourself whether the British Empire would have continued with its happy profit and plunder once the Kaiser’s or Hitler’s Germany was in full control of the continent. Arguably you might have done even worse if you had chosen a future as a German vassal state – or if you had postponed the war with Germany till all the others were conquered and it had come to your turn.
Given the way Moltke mismanaged the Schlieffen Plan, I doubt if Germany would have achieved an outstanding victory in 1914.
Later the ineptitude of Falkenhayn at Verdun, and Ludendorff’s ludicrous Spring Offensive of March 1918, rather confirm that Germany was NOT infallible.
I take it back. Do you lecture in the War Studies Department at a Kings? Your knowledge is brilliant! (I studied there too – also War Studies – Masters)
No.
That was merely a form of flattery, given your knowledge or military strategists and battles. My initial surmise remains: Classics/History scholar, private school, time in the army. 🙂 No bad thing!
That was merely a form of flattery, given your knowledge or military strategists and battles. My initial surmise remains: Classics/History scholar, private school, time in the army. 🙂 No bad thing!
No.
I take it back. Do you lecture in the War Studies Department at a Kings? Your knowledge is brilliant! (I studied there too – also War Studies – Masters)
Given the way Moltke mismanaged the Schlieffen Plan, I doubt if Germany would have achieved an outstanding victory in 1914.
Later the ineptitude of Falkenhayn at Verdun, and Ludendorff’s ludicrous Spring Offensive of March 1918, rather confirm that Germany was NOT infallible.
You studied History or Classics in a private school, am I right? No criticism! I read your posts with interest.
Yes.
Yes.
No. We need to make Putin ask himself that question.
In fact I’m sure he has and already knows the answer.
Sadly I think you maybe correct.
Sadly I think you maybe correct.
At a minimum you need to ask yourself whether the British Empire would have continued with its happy profit and plunder once the Kaiser’s or Hitler’s Germany was in full control of the continent. Arguably you might have done even worse if you had chosen a future as a German vassal state – or if you had postponed the war with Germany till all the others were conquered and it had come to your turn.
You studied History or Classics in a private school, am I right? No criticism! I read your posts with interest.
No. We need to make Putin ask himself that question.
In fact I’m sure he has and already knows the answer.
However it is undeniable that 1914 & 1939 were catastrophic for both Britain and the British Empire.
As a neutral observer, the famed Spanish philosopher Georges Santayana put it thus in 1912:
“Never since the heroic days of Greece has the
world had such a sweet, just, boyish master. It will be a black day for the human race when scientific blackguards, conspirators, churls, and fanatics manage to supplant him.”
For three centuries we had managed the business of war rather well, and much profit and plunder was the happy result. However all was to be thrown away by the manic decisions of both Asquith and Chamberlain.
This time we must ask ourselves is Ukraine really worth a Nuclear War?
What would ever make it “our business”?. Indeed what is our business?
Excellent question Isabel.
Excellent question Isabel.
At what point does anything ever become “our business”?
If China nuked Hawaii would USA expect support from others? I mean, it did belong tothe Polynesians for centuries… It’s only a little island..not worth USA actually risking WWIII over surely?..
Sounds like you support democracy. But only in theory.
Ditto. None of this is America’s business. The Minsk provocation is the catalyst for this one.
Keep fighting the good fight, they are all good points. Perhaps they will realise what they are calling for eventually….
I’d say it’s more like preventing an adult beating up a child personally, rather than your pyromaniac analogy
“…We wants it…precious…”
Indeed, the fact that the people of Ukraine overwhelmingly voted for Zelensky, and to join the EU–plus the fact that five European countries abut Ukraine has nothing to do with it.
If Putin wants it, he must have it. Or at least a consolation prize.
ALL shall have prizes!
Clearly, history isn’t your strong point. Russia and Ukraine have ‘not been in a war’ for 2000 years since neither country has existed for that long, boundaries have hugely changed and for most of the last 300 years the majority, (but not all) of the Ukrainian speaking territories were conquered by Russia.
Russia invaded Ukraine, just as Hitler invaded Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland. Poland by the way is hawkish on this issue, having been dismembered twice in history by – Russia and Germany (in fact Prussia). A very few on your side of the argument, but only a very few, make the analogous point that Britain and later America should not have fought Germany in the 1940s. Why did we?
What would ever make it “our business”?. Indeed what is our business?
At what point does anything ever become “our business”?
If China nuked Hawaii would USA expect support from others? I mean, it did belong tothe Polynesians for centuries… It’s only a little island..not worth USA actually risking WWIII over surely?..
Sounds like you support democracy. But only in theory.
Ditto. None of this is America’s business. The Minsk provocation is the catalyst for this one.
Keep fighting the good fight, they are all good points. Perhaps they will realise what they are calling for eventually….
“Just keep letting the bully get his way??”
This accusation applies more to America and NATO than it does to Russia. The provocation is all on the WEST in this case.
I think there’s been a good bit of agro from both sides to be fair. I think the us and Russia should calm down. Diplomacy. Some sort of negotiation. Understanding that everyone has had a part to play.
I think there’s been a good bit of agro from both sides to be fair. I think the us and Russia should calm down. Diplomacy. Some sort of negotiation. Understanding that everyone has had a part to play.
Then why isn’t the West giving more planes and at least 300 tanks to the Ukraine immediately? What the West recently promised is too little and will make no impact on the outcome of the war. It is like a prolonged suicide note for the Ukraine. I recently listened to a seminar/discussion by the former Austrian Foreign Secretary and a couple of military experts, who said that the situation for the Ukraine is dire, which we hardly ever hear in the West. Probably 100 thousand of Ukrainian soldiers died already and Russia is ready to send 300 thousand more soldiers into the Ukraine. What will happen at the Russian Spring Offensive? Will the the Ukrainian pilots be trained by then and the promised tanks delivered (all very doubtful)? Are huge American Abrams tanks ready to go and can the Ukrainian infrastructure (like bridges etc.) handle them? I can see no Western solution right now, and no strategy to what the sable rattling of the current Boris Johnsons and Joe Bidens of this world want to achieve?
Stephanie I love your ‘prolonged suicide note for Ukraine’. Michael McFaul wrote an article for Foreign Affairs in Jan ’23 in which he shares your views: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2021-01-19/how-contain-putins-russia
The Russian “spring offensive” has been going on for weeks. And it’s not doing very well.
One thing I do know is that no army can train up a modern armoured force in just three months. Indeed, how many modern tanks Russia can still field is questionable. The new formations will have no better luck than the old.
Putin should have stayed on the defensive throughout the winter, using his “mobiks” to strengthen defences. That was almost certainly Surovikin’s recommendation–for which he was promptly demoted.
Instead Putin’s attacking, simply to try and take all of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts.
Things will get even worse for Russia in future.
Russia has 12000 tanks I believe,and produces 850+ a year. How many does America make in a year?
Stephanie I love your ‘prolonged suicide note for Ukraine’. Michael McFaul wrote an article for Foreign Affairs in Jan ’23 in which he shares your views: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2021-01-19/how-contain-putins-russia
The Russian “spring offensive” has been going on for weeks. And it’s not doing very well.
One thing I do know is that no army can train up a modern armoured force in just three months. Indeed, how many modern tanks Russia can still field is questionable. The new formations will have no better luck than the old.
Putin should have stayed on the defensive throughout the winter, using his “mobiks” to strengthen defences. That was almost certainly Surovikin’s recommendation–for which he was promptly demoted.
Instead Putin’s attacking, simply to try and take all of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts.
Things will get even worse for Russia in future.
Russia has 12000 tanks I believe,and produces 850+ a year. How many does America make in a year?
What if Russia had ballistic missiles stationed in Canada or Mexico,would that be ok?
You see – you ask a very straw man question because : Russia DID NOT invade USA.
It is none of our business. No reason to cause a global depression, cause a million deaths in the reigon from fighting, and cause a billion to starve in the coming Global Famine this IS Causing! No Need to cause WWIII over the two most corrupt nations in the world – who have been at war as often as not, for 2000+ years, having a regional conflict.
If you and your neighbor get into a fight is is reasonable we kill both of you, burn down both houses and make your families refugees to stop the fight? Because you think that is the best response.
“Just keep letting the bully get his way??”
This accusation applies more to America and NATO than it does to Russia. The provocation is all on the WEST in this case.
Then why isn’t the West giving more planes and at least 300 tanks to the Ukraine immediately? What the West recently promised is too little and will make no impact on the outcome of the war. It is like a prolonged suicide note for the Ukraine. I recently listened to a seminar/discussion by the former Austrian Foreign Secretary and a couple of military experts, who said that the situation for the Ukraine is dire, which we hardly ever hear in the West. Probably 100 thousand of Ukrainian soldiers died already and Russia is ready to send 300 thousand more soldiers into the Ukraine. What will happen at the Russian Spring Offensive? Will the the Ukrainian pilots be trained by then and the promised tanks delivered (all very doubtful)? Are huge American Abrams tanks ready to go and can the Ukrainian infrastructure (like bridges etc.) handle them? I can see no Western solution right now, and no strategy to what the sable rattling of the current Boris Johnsons and Joe Bidens of this world want to achieve?
What if Russia had ballistic missiles stationed in Canada or Mexico,would that be ok?
Not sure if we can accept blackmail threats as Russia rebuilds their previous empire. Where do you draw a line? Appeasement rarely works, see 1918, ww1, ww2, for those doing a forced merger.
I am confused by talk of negotiation. If Russia invaded the United States, would we “negotiate” and give them part of our land? Or if strangers invaded your home, would you negotiate and let them live with you? I know the factor of nuclear bombs exists, but what is one to do? Just keep letting the bully get his way?? Surely some other solution exists. I am just not inventive enough to think of it. Maybe others can think outside the box.
Not sure if we can accept blackmail threats as Russia rebuilds their previous empire. Where do you draw a line? Appeasement rarely works, see 1918, ww1, ww2, for those doing a forced merger.
Thank you for this article. We should be seeing many more such articles and discussions across the media but, of course, we don’t and probably never will.
The Biden administration, and some (not all) European leaders, have constantly raised the stakes, crossed the various red lines mentioned by the author, and have convinced themselves Russia will never use nukes. That’s what Biden’s strategy in Ukraine ultimately rests on: that Russia is a nuclear power they can treat like a non-nuclear power. That strategy will work until the day it doesn’t.
Here is my line of reasoning (which I would rather not put to the test). There are two types of existential threat: A threat to the existence of a state, and a threat to the existence of an individual leader. If Putin loses this war and hence power, his own life is at risk. That cannot be said of any Western leader. Putin is therefore the one person who might be tempted to press the Red Button if all other options have been closed down. But the Button is not directly linked to a missile, it is linked to a chain of command. That chain of command consists of other humans. One or more of these human links might well consider the following calculation. If I proceed then I risk my own life, and the lives of my family, in any resultant conflagration. If I don’t proceed then Putin is probably thrown from a top floor window and I, and my family, probably survive. What to do! The great weakness in my reasoning is that each link in the chain might leave it to the next guy to save his family.
When this conflict started, it was my, very unpopular, view that we should keep clear of involvement, but you cannot wind back the clock.
As a general point I would say that nuclear weapons are unusable in a nuclear-armed world. It is all a Great Bluff. That is why they haven’t been used. And don’t mention 1945 because that doesn’t count.
Notice that Putin is not rattling his nuclear sabre, and hasn’t been for quite a while.
The West has wisely taken a “boiled frog approach” gradually ratcheting up the support.
And there’s really nothing Vova can do about it.
I fully support the assistance we are giving to Ukraine to prevent Russia going further west. I also think the boiled frog approach is superb too.
Rob C’s comment about China is a very good one and a concern… that would be the ultimate escalation… Dangerous times – but Putin started it.
Yeah good metaphor, the writer seems to have abandoned an understanding of real politik with the gradualist approach of the west, which will bleed Russia dry pretty soon (with Ukraine possibly sacrificed); and which deprives China of a previously useful ally, whilst China is slowly being surrounded by agreements and alliances of countries defending themselves from its influence.
What’s ‘Vova’? I love the ‘boiled frog approach’ expression! I do believe it’s actually utilised in military circles!
V. V. Putin = Vova Putin.
HIs nickname.
Thank you
Thank you
V. V. Putin = Vova Putin.
HIs nickname.
I fully support the assistance we are giving to Ukraine to prevent Russia going further west. I also think the boiled frog approach is superb too.
Rob C’s comment about China is a very good one and a concern… that would be the ultimate escalation… Dangerous times – but Putin started it.
Yeah good metaphor, the writer seems to have abandoned an understanding of real politik with the gradualist approach of the west, which will bleed Russia dry pretty soon (with Ukraine possibly sacrificed); and which deprives China of a previously useful ally, whilst China is slowly being surrounded by agreements and alliances of countries defending themselves from its influence.
What’s ‘Vova’? I love the ‘boiled frog approach’ expression! I do believe it’s actually utilised in military circles!
Generally agree but your line of reasoning seems to presume all nuclear weapons are the same. What about TNWs (Tactical Nuclear Weapons) or Neutron bombs. Whilst still unlikely he would use them more likely than ICBMs etc.
Those weapons won’t achieve any significant military benefit on dispersed forces across the Ukrainian countryside, so would only have an impact on concentrated civilian populations. If he attacked civilians with these weapons then everyone in the world would immediately cease to cooperate with Russia.
Isabel, I refer you to Michael Coleman’s post above, in which he gives an excellent description of TNW’s. But yes, I hear you. There are marked differences and various degrees of escalation: many of which don’t touch on nuclear of any kind. (Undersea cables, cyber attacks on financial institutions, biological warfare – dread the thought…) Putin has so many more options before he resorts to nuclear. The arguments posited within these comments below the article suggest that Putin would be in a losing game to evoke the nuclear threat, even TNW’s, as (despite the localised threshold and risk of fallout, as Michael Coleman so clearly and expertly points out), Putin would lose a lot of the support he currently has. Whilst China have taken a ‘neutral’ stance (though they spout Putin’s propaganda domestically), they have said (publicly) that they would draw the line at nuclear use.
Those weapons won’t achieve any significant military benefit on dispersed forces across the Ukrainian countryside, so would only have an impact on concentrated civilian populations. If he attacked civilians with these weapons then everyone in the world would immediately cease to cooperate with Russia.
Isabel, I refer you to Michael Coleman’s post above, in which he gives an excellent description of TNW’s. But yes, I hear you. There are marked differences and various degrees of escalation: many of which don’t touch on nuclear of any kind. (Undersea cables, cyber attacks on financial institutions, biological warfare – dread the thought…) Putin has so many more options before he resorts to nuclear. The arguments posited within these comments below the article suggest that Putin would be in a losing game to evoke the nuclear threat, even TNW’s, as (despite the localised threshold and risk of fallout, as Michael Coleman so clearly and expertly points out), Putin would lose a lot of the support he currently has. Whilst China have taken a ‘neutral’ stance (though they spout Putin’s propaganda domestically), they have said (publicly) that they would draw the line at nuclear use.
The red button is linked to a chain of command with other humans indeed. But we have seen how quickly Putin demotes or fires people, (and in this case, could be within that red button chain of command), who disagree with him. So somewhere down the line, he’ll get people within that chain of command who agree with him. That’s a problem. If you place Prigozhin or Kadyrov within that ‘chain of command’, we have a problem …
Maybe, but my point was that only Putin has his life on the line. The others will desert him the moment they believe that he is putting them at risk. I would. Wouldn’t you?
Everything I thought I knew was put to the test on the 24th February last year. Despite the accurate warnings from US intelligence from November (at least), onwards, I genuinely didn’t believe that Putin would embark on a war of WW2 scale physical aggression. I would hope his entourage would desert him, but it hasn’t happened thus far… (And since Covid he has become paranoid and shrunk his ‘entourage’ to those who share his aggressive, risky, imperialist views). I admired Macron, who despite much criticism, tried to talk to Putin. (You don’t try, you don’t get). Not his fault that Putin already had his agenda set and it wasn’t changing. In Macron’s defence, Sarkozy (also representing France), negotiated well in the August 2008 Russo-Georgia war.
We don’t disagree on much. Only that his entourage will likely desert him when they see their own lives on the line, at which point imperialist fantasies become less important. In my experience the most bombastic run the fastest. (Lets hope Putin hasn’t put something in the vodka)
We don’t disagree on much. Only that his entourage will likely desert him when they see their own lives on the line, at which point imperialist fantasies become less important. In my experience the most bombastic run the fastest. (Lets hope Putin hasn’t put something in the vodka)
Everything I thought I knew was put to the test on the 24th February last year. Despite the accurate warnings from US intelligence from November (at least), onwards, I genuinely didn’t believe that Putin would embark on a war of WW2 scale physical aggression. I would hope his entourage would desert him, but it hasn’t happened thus far… (And since Covid he has become paranoid and shrunk his ‘entourage’ to those who share his aggressive, risky, imperialist views). I admired Macron, who despite much criticism, tried to talk to Putin. (You don’t try, you don’t get). Not his fault that Putin already had his agenda set and it wasn’t changing. In Macron’s defence, Sarkozy (also representing France), negotiated well in the August 2008 Russo-Georgia war.
Maybe, but my point was that only Putin has his life on the line. The others will desert him the moment they believe that he is putting them at risk. I would. Wouldn’t you?
Notice that Putin is not rattling his nuclear sabre, and hasn’t been for quite a while.
The West has wisely taken a “boiled frog approach” gradually ratcheting up the support.
And there’s really nothing Vova can do about it.
Generally agree but your line of reasoning seems to presume all nuclear weapons are the same. What about TNWs (Tactical Nuclear Weapons) or Neutron bombs. Whilst still unlikely he would use them more likely than ICBMs etc.
The red button is linked to a chain of command with other humans indeed. But we have seen how quickly Putin demotes or fires people, (and in this case, could be within that red button chain of command), who disagree with him. So somewhere down the line, he’ll get people within that chain of command who agree with him. That’s a problem. If you place Prigozhin or Kadyrov within that ‘chain of command’, we have a problem …
Here is my line of reasoning (which I would rather not put to the test). There are two types of existential threat: A threat to the existence of a state, and a threat to the existence of an individual leader. If Putin loses this war and hence power, his own life is at risk. That cannot be said of any Western leader. Putin is therefore the one person who might be tempted to press the Red Button if all other options have been closed down. But the Button is not directly linked to a missile, it is linked to a chain of command. That chain of command consists of other humans. One or more of these human links might well consider the following calculation. If I proceed then I risk my own life, and the lives of my family, in any resultant conflagration. If I don’t proceed then Putin is probably thrown from a top floor window and I, and my family, probably survive. What to do! The great weakness in my reasoning is that each link in the chain might leave it to the next guy to save his family.
When this conflict started, it was my, very unpopular, view that we should keep clear of involvement, but you cannot wind back the clock.
As a general point I would say that nuclear weapons are unusable in a nuclear-armed world. It is all a Great Bluff. That is why they haven’t been used. And don’t mention 1945 because that doesn’t count.
Clearly we are in a terrible situation with no easy way out. The West has certainly made many errors in its dealings with Russia, although these are often greatly exaggerated. For example it was Russian economists you wanted to rapidly reconstruct the Russian economy on capitalist lines – as was the received wisdom at the time.
However I’d have a lot more respect for Fazi’s article if it honestly actually addressed the major problems on his own side. For example, Russia dismembering Ukraine and setting up a puppet government. Following that quite possibly (since Putin has said he wants to restore the empire of Peter the Great), threatening other neighbours as well.
Also it behoves people who purport to be telling truth to power or unwelcome news to the public to be careful with the use of language. Western nations clearly ARE NOT at war with Russia because they haven’t engaged with their own military forces. On this definition of being a’t war’ United States was at war with Germany from 1939 and not 1941 and the fact even with Japan. In the 19th century Great Britain was quite sympathetic with the Confederacy but never at war with the Union, despite their being significant tensions.
Let us recall that Poland on our more hawkish countries in the coalition of suppliers against Putin have experienced being dismembered by Russia and Germany twice in its history; this is not some theoretical abstraction for her.
A few, but only a very few, commentators on Fazi’s side of the argument argue that Britain and America should not have fought Germany in the 1930s and 40s, though that is the logical conclusion of their position. Germany like Russia today successively invaded territories that it wanted and decided were part of its hegemonic area, for various dubious reasons. In any case, however valid those reasons were – for example with populations of German or Russian speakers – the issue was being settled by military invasion which was considered to be – quite reasonably I would have thought – a major threat to world peace.
Then there is the military and strategic point that no war has ever been won purely on the basis of defensive weaponry. Ukraine entirely be on the offensive and Russia with offensive capability all but guarantees an ultimate, in my view very undesirable, Russian victory.
Lastly the author implicitly assumes, but doesn’t make the case, that it is actually possible to reach a reasonable settlement with Russia it willing to abide by it rather than coming back a few years later in a stronger position. However history should lead us to rather doubt that: Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, then it invaded via proxies parts of Eastern Ukraine from 2016. It has broken every agreement it has ever signed with Ukraine including recognising the country in its current borders in 1991 and then again in 1994 when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons.
So far, the U.S. is providing $100 billion to Ukraine’s “defense”, which is equivalent to half of the annual GDP of the country. I’d venture to say that we are at war with Russia.
Actually, it’s arguable whether it was the Russians or the Ukrainians who failed to honour the Minsk Accords. Both sides went on fighting after the ceasefire was declared. The separatists blame the Kyiv faction, Kyiv blames the separatists. We believe who it suits us to believe, I think.
So far, the U.S. is providing $100 billion to Ukraine’s “defense”, which is equivalent to half of the annual GDP of the country. I’d venture to say that we are at war with Russia.
Actually, it’s arguable whether it was the Russians or the Ukrainians who failed to honour the Minsk Accords. Both sides went on fighting after the ceasefire was declared. The separatists blame the Kyiv faction, Kyiv blames the separatists. We believe who it suits us to believe, I think.
Clearly we are in a terrible situation with no easy way out. The West has certainly made many errors in its dealings with Russia, although these are often greatly exaggerated. For example it was Russian economists you wanted to rapidly reconstruct the Russian economy on capitalist lines – as was the received wisdom at the time.
However I’d have a lot more respect for Fazi’s article if it honestly actually addressed the major problems on his own side. For example, Russia dismembering Ukraine and setting up a puppet government. Following that quite possibly (since Putin has said he wants to restore the empire of Peter the Great), threatening other neighbours as well.
Also it behoves people who purport to be telling truth to power or unwelcome news to the public to be careful with the use of language. Western nations clearly ARE NOT at war with Russia because they haven’t engaged with their own military forces. On this definition of being a’t war’ United States was at war with Germany from 1939 and not 1941 and the fact even with Japan. In the 19th century Great Britain was quite sympathetic with the Confederacy but never at war with the Union, despite their being significant tensions.
Let us recall that Poland on our more hawkish countries in the coalition of suppliers against Putin have experienced being dismembered by Russia and Germany twice in its history; this is not some theoretical abstraction for her.
A few, but only a very few, commentators on Fazi’s side of the argument argue that Britain and America should not have fought Germany in the 1930s and 40s, though that is the logical conclusion of their position. Germany like Russia today successively invaded territories that it wanted and decided were part of its hegemonic area, for various dubious reasons. In any case, however valid those reasons were – for example with populations of German or Russian speakers – the issue was being settled by military invasion which was considered to be – quite reasonably I would have thought – a major threat to world peace.
Then there is the military and strategic point that no war has ever been won purely on the basis of defensive weaponry. Ukraine entirely be on the offensive and Russia with offensive capability all but guarantees an ultimate, in my view very undesirable, Russian victory.
Lastly the author implicitly assumes, but doesn’t make the case, that it is actually possible to reach a reasonable settlement with Russia it willing to abide by it rather than coming back a few years later in a stronger position. However history should lead us to rather doubt that: Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, then it invaded via proxies parts of Eastern Ukraine from 2016. It has broken every agreement it has ever signed with Ukraine including recognising the country in its current borders in 1991 and then again in 1994 when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons.
“We wants it…precious…”
The most important fact–of which Fazi is blissfully unaware–is that no nuclear nation has ever fought another–with nukes. Indeed, when any nuclear nation fears it might start a nuclear war, it makes great efforts to insure that doesn’t happen.
The Soviets did it twice with Cuba and Able Archer. Lower ranking officers also did it when substandard Soviet equpt malfunctioned–as Russian equpt inevitably does.
The US basically lost Vietnam because it was never willing to invade North Vietnam.
Any lessons there, guys?
No, I guess not…
Fazi–and every other Putin well-wisher–I’m sure just wish that Putin could somehow bluff his way to victory in Ukraine. Sure, he’s kidnapped a million Ukrainian citizens, tried to freeze 30 million+ in their own homes, and hopes to obliterate even the memory of a Ukrainian nation. But is he really such a bad guy–COMPARED TO NUCLER WAR!?
Sorry, just accept the hard reality that Putin has cleverly obliterated his own regular army, and neutered his air force. He has ingeniously insured that his nation is no longer a major world power. It’s currency is now tied to the Yuan, and much of its military equpt comes from Iran.
And no amount of hysteria, either here or anywhere else, can revive the corpse of the Russian Empire.
You are in a very dangerous place if you believe that something never having happened in the past guarantees that it will not happen in the future. Given the respective protagonists’ blindness to catastrophes as diverse as the fall of Rome, the Holocaust or the financial crisis of 2007 I would tread very carefully around discounting the possibility of imminent nuclear war.
I remember decades ago when my employer decided it was going to be the first major player in the derivatives market. When I queried the methodology, in particular the way securities’ valuations and measures of volatility were a function of their historical records so what would happen if a left field event occurred outside the record, answer there was none.
This is a good analogy. The other thing that happened in the financial crisis is that the more bets were placed on the assumption that the black swan event would never happen, the more likely the black swan event became. No one should doubt that Russia is planning a nuclear escalation. Because that’s the one move that we’ve all bet against.
This is a good analogy. The other thing that happened in the financial crisis is that the more bets were placed on the assumption that the black swan event would never happen, the more likely the black swan event became. No one should doubt that Russia is planning a nuclear escalation. Because that’s the one move that we’ve all bet against.
On much firmer ground, however, in calculating that nuclear war won’t be of any benefit to Russia in Ukraine, either strategic or tactical.
And “Black Swan” events occur infrequently. Read Taleb.
They aren’t miracles, as a nuclear war would be.
Thanks, in the event of a nuclear winter in the near future I’ll be able to console myself with the idea that at least it was highly unlikely to have happened.
Thanks, in the event of a nuclear winter in the near future I’ll be able to console myself with the idea that at least it was highly unlikely to have happened.
I remember decades ago when my employer decided it was going to be the first major player in the derivatives market. When I queried the methodology, in particular the way securities’ valuations and measures of volatility were a function of their historical records so what would happen if a left field event occurred outside the record, answer there was none.
On much firmer ground, however, in calculating that nuclear war won’t be of any benefit to Russia in Ukraine, either strategic or tactical.
And “Black Swan” events occur infrequently. Read Taleb.
They aren’t miracles, as a nuclear war would be.
That is always a lame argument, to criticise somebody’s view of the war in Ukraine war as a “Putin Lover”. Same tactic as Putin uses calling everybody a Nazi. In his speech at the anniversary of Stalingrad he just compared Germany’s reluctant sending of tanks to the former Nazi Regime.
Yes Putin’s comparison to the 1943 Stalingrad battle (80 years on) was disrespectful and inaccurate. I refer you you to McFaul’s January article for Foreign Affairs, (quoted with link above). There are many opinions on this distasteful comparison. It’s simply not comparable to the Battle of Stalingrad and indeed, it disrespects the memory of all the Russian/Ukrainian soldiers who fought in it, defending Russian soil from a Nazi invasion. Putin started this war. He didn’t have to. It’s not a ‘defensive war’ in the slightest: no matter what his ‘political spin’ on it is.
Yes Putin’s comparison to the 1943 Stalingrad battle (80 years on) was disrespectful and inaccurate. I refer you you to McFaul’s January article for Foreign Affairs, (quoted with link above). There are many opinions on this distasteful comparison. It’s simply not comparable to the Battle of Stalingrad and indeed, it disrespects the memory of all the Russian/Ukrainian soldiers who fought in it, defending Russian soil from a Nazi invasion. Putin started this war. He didn’t have to. It’s not a ‘defensive war’ in the slightest: no matter what his ‘political spin’ on it is.
You are in a very dangerous place if you believe that something never having happened in the past guarantees that it will not happen in the future. Given the respective protagonists’ blindness to catastrophes as diverse as the fall of Rome, the Holocaust or the financial crisis of 2007 I would tread very carefully around discounting the possibility of imminent nuclear war.
That is always a lame argument, to criticise somebody’s view of the war in Ukraine war as a “Putin Lover”. Same tactic as Putin uses calling everybody a Nazi. In his speech at the anniversary of Stalingrad he just compared Germany’s reluctant sending of tanks to the former Nazi Regime.
“We wants it…precious…”
The most important fact–of which Fazi is blissfully unaware–is that no nuclear nation has ever fought another–with nukes. Indeed, when any nuclear nation fears it might start a nuclear war, it makes great efforts to insure that doesn’t happen.
The Soviets did it twice with Cuba and Able Archer. Lower ranking officers also did it when substandard Soviet equpt malfunctioned–as Russian equpt inevitably does.
The US basically lost Vietnam because it was never willing to invade North Vietnam.
Any lessons there, guys?
No, I guess not…
Fazi–and every other Putin well-wisher–I’m sure just wish that Putin could somehow bluff his way to victory in Ukraine. Sure, he’s kidnapped a million Ukrainian citizens, tried to freeze 30 million+ in their own homes, and hopes to obliterate even the memory of a Ukrainian nation. But is he really such a bad guy–COMPARED TO NUCLER WAR!?
Sorry, just accept the hard reality that Putin has cleverly obliterated his own regular army, and neutered his air force. He has ingeniously insured that his nation is no longer a major world power. It’s currency is now tied to the Yuan, and much of its military equpt comes from Iran.
And no amount of hysteria, either here or anywhere else, can revive the corpse of the Russian Empire.
He refers to Ukraine as ❝one of the warring factions❞. I don’t see Ukraine as a faction but as an invaded European nation which we needed, and have chosen, to support. Like Belgium in 1914.
If this means American foreign policy is consciously willing to repeat 1914, it is both right and wrong but mostly wrong.
American policy might be at the early July, 1914 stage: we see that something significant has happened, aren’t sure just how important is it, but are confident its impact can be dealt with locally. We can increase our involvement and support of one of the other or the belligerents without limit because we are smart, we’ve gotten our arms around it, and whatever happens will be limited to a small theater.
This is the slim thread upon which your being right hangs.
Like 1914, we don’t fully appreciate that, for the actual and prospective belligerents, victory is the only possible outcome. Anything less will be total defeat, meaning the loss of power of those who currently hold it. And we only think we know the positions of the people who have the ears of the leaders. As recently as Iraq II we saw this scenario play out.
Thirty years after nuclear armageddon was banished, it’s back and back in a rush so fast we aren’t even aware of it.
As we start our second July week, our policies and expectations have to catch up fast to a situation that is moving even faster. By our fourth week it will be too late and we won’t even know it until it’s August 5th.
America and Britain were both signatories to the treaty of Russia respecting Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial borders. I think giving them weapons is probably the least they can do if they are to honour their side of the agreement, even if Russia has shown it can’t be trusted
America and Britain were both signatories to the treaty of Russia respecting Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial borders. I think giving them weapons is probably the least they can do if they are to honour their side of the agreement, even if Russia has shown it can’t be trusted
If this means American foreign policy is consciously willing to repeat 1914, it is both right and wrong but mostly wrong.
American policy might be at the early July, 1914 stage: we see that something significant has happened, aren’t sure just how important is it, but are confident its impact can be dealt with locally. We can increase our involvement and support of one of the other or the belligerents without limit because we are smart, we’ve gotten our arms around it, and whatever happens will be limited to a small theater.
This is the slim thread upon which your being right hangs.
Like 1914, we don’t fully appreciate that, for the actual and prospective belligerents, victory is the only possible outcome. Anything less will be total defeat, meaning the loss of power of those who currently hold it. And we only think we know the positions of the people who have the ears of the leaders. As recently as Iraq II we saw this scenario play out.
Thirty years after nuclear armageddon was banished, it’s back and back in a rush so fast we aren’t even aware of it.
As we start our second July week, our policies and expectations have to catch up fast to a situation that is moving even faster. By our fourth week it will be too late and we won’t even know it until it’s August 5th.
He refers to Ukraine as ❝one of the warring factions❞. I don’t see Ukraine as a faction but as an invaded European nation which we needed, and have chosen, to support. Like Belgium in 1914.
So what does this peace look like? Can Ukraine join NATO, and if not how can it guarantee the Russians won’t simply try and carve off another slice of their territory in the future?
It’s all well and good saying end the war, but what concessions will Russia give in order to do so?
Remember that it was Putin that started this conflict, yet too many seem to believe that it is Ukraine and the west that should give everything up in order for peace. If Ukraine are happy to fight in order to try and regain the their own country then why shouldn’t they? It’s also a relatively cheap way for the west to seriously diminish a major rival so why wouldn’t they take it.
Realpolitik I believe is the word that was bandied about at the start of the war, usually when implying that might has right in regards to international relations
Agreed. The Ukrainians are our Trojans at Thermopylae. It’s very unfortunate for them but hugely beneficial to the west, and as you say it’s their choice.
They’re fighting for what Ukraine will be a 100 years from now.
Any sacrifices now will be worth it, if they beat off Russia.
‘Beating off Russia’ won’t end the war.
Provided no nuclear Armageddon…
Well if that happens then presumably they won’t have beaten Russia. …
Well if that happens then presumably they won’t have beaten Russia. …
‘Beating off Russia’ won’t end the war.
Provided no nuclear Armageddon…
Do you really mean Trojans?
Mr Stewart loves an inaccurate reference to classical antiquity. He also forgets thermopylae was a last stand. Not a victory really.
Where is Charles Stanhope when you need him?
I think he’s on his way down, I’ve just crossed paths above! Come on Mr Stanhope we need your ‘hermetic cudgel’.
‘hermetic cudgel’? Good lord. You’re all ex public school in government, aren’t you? Ha ha! I totally don’t mind. I am your apprentice of history! Bring it on! I’m only good at modern history so anything of classical origin, bring it on. I’ll learn.
I stole that from an earlier poster, on a different thread, much cleverer than me. I homeschooled for a bit actually, I’m actually an electrician lady with boat dwelling parents. Might want to dial back the assumptions. I would recommend Tom Holland Persian fire on the subject of the Spartans and thermopylae myself. Mr Stanhope is probably much better qualified for giving book recommendations on the subject though I would say.
Thank you B Emery and I disagree. I have enjoyed your posts. You substantiate your arguments well. You deserve your place here as much as anyone else does so kudos to you 🙂
Well thats very kind. Thank you, I have been quite obnoxious at times to be fair.
Well thats very kind. Thank you, I have been quite obnoxious at times to be fair.
Thank you B Emery and I disagree. I have enjoyed your posts. You substantiate your arguments well. You deserve your place here as much as anyone else does so kudos to you 🙂
I stole that from an earlier poster, on a different thread, much cleverer than me. I homeschooled for a bit actually, I’m actually an electrician lady with boat dwelling parents. Might want to dial back the assumptions. I would recommend Tom Holland Persian fire on the subject of the Spartans and thermopylae myself. Mr Stanhope is probably much better qualified for giving book recommendations on the subject though I would say.
‘hermetic cudgel’? Good lord. You’re all ex public school in government, aren’t you? Ha ha! I totally don’t mind. I am your apprentice of history! Bring it on! I’m only good at modern history so anything of classical origin, bring it on. I’ll learn.
You are perfectly correct, SPARTANS not Trojans, and it was an heroic defeat!
However I seem to have a habit of annoying Mr Stewart so decided to ‘show mercy’ on this particular occasion!
Thank you, I thought I’d try him for a bit sport. Perhaps I’ll leave him alone if he’s a sensitive soul.
He may have recovered so he’s all yours.
I’m sure he’s so pleased. He may find you were a preferable annoyance.
I’m sure he’s so pleased. He may find you were a preferable annoyance.
He may have recovered so he’s all yours.
Ha!
Conceded, I got the reference wrong, though I still believe the sentiment was correct as the war was ultimately lost.
But that’s two days in a row that you and B Emery have decided to have a go at me and my character.
What does that say about you Charles – you prefer that people agree with you all the time?
Actually you jumped me yesterday Mr Stewart, saying Mr Bjorn was making rubbish comments, you in fact said not very encouraging things yourself, I backed him up and you let your views be known. I welcome it, it’s what I’m here for 🙂 I would advise a thicker skin, you were simply being humorously corrected.
If you were paying attention you would have noticed we don’t always agree, I have in fact been very obnoxious to Mr Stanhope in the past.
Well said Ms Emery. We are obviously both true believers in that old adage “ sticks and stones may break my bones BUT words will never hurt me”.
Fortunately there are numerous unbelievers who offer simply excellent ‘sport’!
Thank you, we were made very resilient to all that too, my dad only deals in blunt. It is important to have some resilience to all that, the uncensored pro free speech American boards are savage, very funny to read. Mr Stewart is very upset with me now, I will leave him alone.
Thank you, we were made very resilient to all that too, my dad only deals in blunt. It is important to have some resilience to all that, the uncensored pro free speech American boards are savage, very funny to read. Mr Stewart is very upset with me now, I will leave him alone.
Well said Ms Emery. We are obviously both true believers in that old adage “ sticks and stones may break my bones BUT words will never hurt me”.
Fortunately there are numerous unbelievers who offer simply excellent ‘sport’!
Certainly not!
But as you well know, like the late Dr Samuel Johnson, I find ‘winding up’ the Scotch simply irresistible!
I might add that I only ‘acquired’ this affliction with the advent of the SNP and its idiotic acolytes.
Actually you jumped me yesterday Mr Stewart, saying Mr Bjorn was making rubbish comments, you in fact said not very encouraging things yourself, I backed him up and you let your views be known. I welcome it, it’s what I’m here for 🙂 I would advise a thicker skin, you were simply being humorously corrected.
If you were paying attention you would have noticed we don’t always agree, I have in fact been very obnoxious to Mr Stanhope in the past.
Certainly not!
But as you well know, like the late Dr Samuel Johnson, I find ‘winding up’ the Scotch simply irresistible!
I might add that I only ‘acquired’ this affliction with the advent of the SNP and its idiotic acolytes.
Thank you, I thought I’d try him for a bit sport. Perhaps I’ll leave him alone if he’s a sensitive soul.
Ha!
Conceded, I got the reference wrong, though I still believe the sentiment was correct as the war was ultimately lost.
But that’s two days in a row that you and B Emery have decided to have a go at me and my character.
What does that say about you Charles – you prefer that people agree with you all the time?
I want to meet this ‘Charles Stanhope’!!!
No relation to the late Captain Richard Sharp(e) of the 95th Rifles I suppose?
No I’m afraid, nor the Jamaican revolutionary (Sam Sharpe with an e). It’s my married name. I am Scottish (not SNP)
No I’m afraid, nor the Jamaican revolutionary (Sam Sharpe with an e). It’s my married name. I am Scottish (not SNP)
No relation to the late Captain Richard Sharp(e) of the 95th Rifles I suppose?
Here here!
I think he’s on his way down, I’ve just crossed paths above! Come on Mr Stanhope we need your ‘hermetic cudgel’.
You are perfectly correct, SPARTANS not Trojans, and it was an heroic defeat!
However I seem to have a habit of annoying Mr Stewart so decided to ‘show mercy’ on this particular occasion!
I want to meet this ‘Charles Stanhope’!!!
Here here!
Ah you’re right about Spartans B. But that’s two days in a row that you and Charles have made negative comments about my character, and you’re starting to look like the school bullies from Tom Brown. I appear to have provoked you into bullying me after merely getting a classical reference wrong, and then you generalise about it.
Are you proud to be a bully?
Oh you do get upset don’t you, bless you, I’m very sorry if you feel bullied. As I said above, you were happy to make some not very constructive comments yourself yesterday, you and three others were happy to pick on Mr Bjorn who was already heavily down voted and repeatedly flagged off for no reason. I will be sure to leave you in peace I don’t want accusing of bullying.
Also I like to get facts right, I’ve seen you throw the thermopylae reference around more than once. It’s not a good analogy. Trust me, there was nothing left of them in the pass.
Oh you do get upset don’t you, bless you, I’m very sorry if you feel bullied. As I said above, you were happy to make some not very constructive comments yourself yesterday, you and three others were happy to pick on Mr Bjorn who was already heavily down voted and repeatedly flagged off for no reason. I will be sure to leave you in peace I don’t want accusing of bullying.
Also I like to get facts right, I’ve seen you throw the thermopylae reference around more than once. It’s not a good analogy. Trust me, there was nothing left of them in the pass.
Where is Charles Stanhope when you need him?
Ah you’re right about Spartans B. But that’s two days in a row that you and Charles have made negative comments about my character, and you’re starting to look like the school bullies from Tom Brown. I appear to have provoked you into bullying me after merely getting a classical reference wrong, and then you generalise about it.
Are you proud to be a bully?
Do we need the infamous ‘Charles Stanhope’ back here?
No.
No.
Mr Stewart loves an inaccurate reference to classical antiquity. He also forgets thermopylae was a last stand. Not a victory really.
Do we need the infamous ‘Charles Stanhope’ back here?
Ahem … Spartans, surely?
I do believe that this has been corrected in the text above.
I do believe that this has been corrected in the text above.
And I say one shouldn’t be taken in by the Russian Spartan Horse, either!
They’re fighting for what Ukraine will be a 100 years from now.
Any sacrifices now will be worth it, if they beat off Russia.
Do you really mean Trojans?
Ahem … Spartans, surely?
And I say one shouldn’t be taken in by the Russian Spartan Horse, either!
“Remember that it was Putin that started this conflict”
The biggest problem with getting people to see sense about Ukraine is the widespread perception that what’s going on is a war between Russia and Ukraine which will end if the Russians are driven out. Not so. In reality, it’s a long-standing civil war in which the Russians have intervened. It will only end when a constitutional settlement is reached that induces the separatists to stop fighting.
Glad to see we are moving on from the Spartans, however much I enjoyed the historical lessons.
Glad to see we are moving on from the Spartans, however much I enjoyed the historical lessons.
Agreed. The Ukrainians are our Trojans at Thermopylae. It’s very unfortunate for them but hugely beneficial to the west, and as you say it’s their choice.
“Remember that it was Putin that started this conflict”
The biggest problem with getting people to see sense about Ukraine is the widespread perception that what’s going on is a war between Russia and Ukraine which will end if the Russians are driven out. Not so. In reality, it’s a long-standing civil war in which the Russians have intervened. It will only end when a constitutional settlement is reached that induces the separatists to stop fighting.
So what does this peace look like? Can Ukraine join NATO, and if not how can it guarantee the Russians won’t simply try and carve off another slice of their territory in the future?
It’s all well and good saying end the war, but what concessions will Russia give in order to do so?
Remember that it was Putin that started this conflict, yet too many seem to believe that it is Ukraine and the west that should give everything up in order for peace. If Ukraine are happy to fight in order to try and regain the their own country then why shouldn’t they? It’s also a relatively cheap way for the west to seriously diminish a major rival so why wouldn’t they take it.
Realpolitik I believe is the word that was bandied about at the start of the war, usually when implying that might has right in regards to international relations
I agree that reaching a peaceful settlement is in everyone’s interest, but the opinion piece is grounded in naivety. Russia’s stance towards the West (and the CCP’s) is based on a concept of Hybrid War – an extension of von Clausewitz’s Total War concept to include elements like information and cyber warfare. An explicit part of the Hybrid War strategy is minor conflicts like Syria, Crimea and now the wider Ukraine conflict. So, we were already at war, but we just didn’t know it.
The West’s response up until Ukraine has been weak and uncoordinated, but the almost uniform approach from the West has given Russia pause for thought. However, there is room for improvement from the West in moving beyond trade measures – sanctions – and utilising the full spectrum of Hybrid Warfare in response, namely cyber- and information-warfare.
The Russians, however, don’t see it that way.
That statement al assumes ALL Russians are well informed and think the same way.
With respect, your statement assumes that what ALL Russians think actually matters, even (especially) in Russia.
Most of them think the same way and are no less well-informed than you or I.
Are you actually following any of this – its estimated at least 500,000 Russians have left because they don’t agree with the war. There are laws in Russia not allowing Russians to actually call it a ‘war’. They can’t access any media outside of Russia. Its illegal (such that many have gone to prison for 10 years for just criticising in any way the war. They are fed a constant stream of propaganda by their media. You think that means they are as well informed as us ??
Are you actually following any of this – its estimated at least 500,000 Russians have left because they don’t agree with the war. There are laws in Russia not allowing Russians to actually call it a ‘war’. They can’t access any media outside of Russia. Its illegal (such that many have gone to prison for 10 years for just criticising in any way the war. They are fed a constant stream of propaganda by their media. You think that means they are as well informed as us ??
With respect, your statement assumes that what ALL Russians think actually matters, even (especially) in Russia.
Most of them think the same way and are no less well-informed than you or I.
The Russian establishment/military see it that way, and is part of their doctrine. Of course the Russian people may not see it that way and my sympathies to any who suffer because of the actions of the regime they live under.
That statement al assumes ALL Russians are well informed and think the same way.
The Russian establishment/military see it that way, and is part of their doctrine. Of course the Russian people may not see it that way and my sympathies to any who suffer because of the actions of the regime they live under.
$100 billion from the U.S. alone is weak? It’s equivalent to half of the annual GDP of Ukraine.
Hmmm… this brings to mind something dimly remembered about Oceania and Eurasia…
The Russians, however, don’t see it that way.
$100 billion from the U.S. alone is weak? It’s equivalent to half of the annual GDP of Ukraine.
Hmmm… this brings to mind something dimly remembered about Oceania and Eurasia…
I agree that reaching a peaceful settlement is in everyone’s interest, but the opinion piece is grounded in naivety. Russia’s stance towards the West (and the CCP’s) is based on a concept of Hybrid War – an extension of von Clausewitz’s Total War concept to include elements like information and cyber warfare. An explicit part of the Hybrid War strategy is minor conflicts like Syria, Crimea and now the wider Ukraine conflict. So, we were already at war, but we just didn’t know it.
The West’s response up until Ukraine has been weak and uncoordinated, but the almost uniform approach from the West has given Russia pause for thought. However, there is room for improvement from the West in moving beyond trade measures – sanctions – and utilising the full spectrum of Hybrid Warfare in response, namely cyber- and information-warfare.
“from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine.” This is highly debatable. The West does not covet so much as a square inch of Russian territory, certainly pre-2014. The existential threat is the one posed by Russia to Ukraine. Moreover, Putin has made it clear that he regards countries that are now independent, sovereign UN member states to be in his “near abroad” and “sphere of influence”. If the West accepts Russian aggression against Ukraine and other neighbouring countries because it is afraid of the possible use of nuclear weapons by Russia on the grounds of a bogus “existential threat” to Russia, which does not exist, then this provides a template for Russia to repeat its aggression at will.
Russia has no monopoly on nuclear weapons and no country can win a nuclear exchange. This is the philosophical basis of Mutually Assured Destruction. Our nuclear deterrents will either deter, or they will not. We need the moral clarity as set out by President John Kennedy in his inaugural address. If the West really were at war with Russia, then we are committing a homeopathic level of military support in relation to our collective inventories. It is Russia that is escalating the war, as is clearly evident in Donbas. They must understand that this is futile and that the wanton and indiscriminate destruction of entire towns and cities is totally unacceptable.
“from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine.” This is highly debatable.
Wall Street’s biggest profits come from encouraging US taxpayers to spend almost a trillion dollars every year on the military. That requires enemies to frighten them with – the more heinous the better. Putin is perfect.
The defense industry (per PwC) made $62 billion in operating profits in 2021. Apple made $101 billion alone. Try again. You might want to say “political and military leaders biggest profits” instead.
The defense industry (per PwC) made $62 billion in operating profits in 2021. Apple made $101 billion alone. Try again. You might want to say “political and military leaders biggest profits” instead.
“from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine.” This is highly debatable.
Wall Street’s biggest profits come from encouraging US taxpayers to spend almost a trillion dollars every year on the military. That requires enemies to frighten them with – the more heinous the better. Putin is perfect.
“from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine.” This is highly debatable. The West does not covet so much as a square inch of Russian territory, certainly pre-2014. The existential threat is the one posed by Russia to Ukraine. Moreover, Putin has made it clear that he regards countries that are now independent, sovereign UN member states to be in his “near abroad” and “sphere of influence”. If the West accepts Russian aggression against Ukraine and other neighbouring countries because it is afraid of the possible use of nuclear weapons by Russia on the grounds of a bogus “existential threat” to Russia, which does not exist, then this provides a template for Russia to repeat its aggression at will.
Russia has no monopoly on nuclear weapons and no country can win a nuclear exchange. This is the philosophical basis of Mutually Assured Destruction. Our nuclear deterrents will either deter, or they will not. We need the moral clarity as set out by President John Kennedy in his inaugural address. If the West really were at war with Russia, then we are committing a homeopathic level of military support in relation to our collective inventories. It is Russia that is escalating the war, as is clearly evident in Donbas. They must understand that this is futile and that the wanton and indiscriminate destruction of entire towns and cities is totally unacceptable.
Rather more nuanced than most pro-Russian articles, but nontheless this author appears to have swallowed the Putin propaganda whole ..
The author has been brave enough to write an article that is not popular right now. Peace talks were recently discussed at Davos, although no one wants to admit it after Musk. (Last Davos session, George Kennan said something similar and later retracted it). You don’t have to agree with the author’s perspective but one good thing is that it has ignited an excellent debate within the comments underneath.
Umm Davos less said the better really. Don’t remember Putin turning up at Davos to put his side of things.
Don’t think he was invited Isabel…
Don’t think he was invited Isabel…
Umm Davos less said the better really. Don’t remember Putin turning up at Davos to put his side of things.
The author has been brave enough to write an article that is not popular right now. Peace talks were recently discussed at Davos, although no one wants to admit it after Musk. (Last Davos session, George Kennan said something similar and later retracted it). You don’t have to agree with the author’s perspective but one good thing is that it has ignited an excellent debate within the comments underneath.
Rather more nuanced than most pro-Russian articles, but nontheless this author appears to have swallowed the Putin propaganda whole ..
Ignorance is knowledge. Oppression is freedom. Men are women. Left is right. Racism is equality. We have kind of gotten used to these utter absurdities over the last two decades. But the new one on me is that imperialism is liberty and aggression is defence. Now I see that Russia are actually the good guys. I’m sure even Franz Kafka would have thought this all to be too fantastic for his novels.
deleted. (slow, but I caught on).
Explain to me? Am I missing something?
I was asking for clarification that just required me to read Mr. Hirst’s comment more carefully and confirm there was no break in the Orwellian irony. I thought maybe there was a pivot into the commenter’s own views beginning with “Now I see…”.
I’m still in the dark. Forgive my ignorance
You haven’t missed anything worthwhile. I deleted a post which asked a question that became pointless when I read the comment more carefully.
You haven’t missed anything worthwhile. I deleted a post which asked a question that became pointless when I read the comment more carefully.
I’m still in the dark. Forgive my ignorance
I was asking for clarification that just required me to read Mr. Hirst’s comment more carefully and confirm there was no break in the Orwellian irony. I thought maybe there was a pivot into the commenter’s own views beginning with “Now I see…”.
Explain to me? Am I missing something?
Best comment here! What (what’s left of the West) needs is this kind of extension of Orwell to the details of the left’s attempt to supplant Western Culture with gnostic mumbo jumbo.
deleted. (slow, but I caught on).
Best comment here! What (what’s left of the West) needs is this kind of extension of Orwell to the details of the left’s attempt to supplant Western Culture with gnostic mumbo jumbo.
Ignorance is knowledge. Oppression is freedom. Men are women. Left is right. Racism is equality. We have kind of gotten used to these utter absurdities over the last two decades. But the new one on me is that imperialism is liberty and aggression is defence. Now I see that Russia are actually the good guys. I’m sure even Franz Kafka would have thought this all to be too fantastic for his novels.
I hold no brief for President Putin, but I recently read Prisoners of Geography by Tim Marshall. He makes the point that from Napoleon’s invasion in 1812, up to 1945, Russia has had to fight, on average, every 33 years on and around the North European Plain. That record and the losses entailed, must colour Russian thinking. We know that we, the West, are not going to advance on Moscow. But in Moscow they cling to the lessons of history and to the traditional response of seeking safety behind either difficult to cross territory, or behind buffer-states, of which Poland and Ukraine, with their flatter, easier to cross territories, have always been on Russia’s wish-list.
Russia will also be aware that the more they are weakened, or seen as weakened, may feed into concerns that one day China may not be so friendly and that vast areas of eastern Russia would be hard to defend from a Chinese invasion. NATO is not threatening Russia’s actual security, but Russia’s sense of security is another matter. Politically we are in a minefield.
Let me send this to Tim on twitter…
You should do that.
I agree with you by the way 🙂
I agree with you by the way 🙂
You should do that.
Absolutely. Really fine point you make about China too.
The other fiction reverberating around the West is that with Mr. Putin gone, someone compliable will take his place. Someone like Navalny, though no one seems to have noticed his lineage at all. Not someone who liked foreigners in Russia, just a short while ago. But now a paragon of democratic values.
Speaking of which, I mean, whatever happened to that nice man, Mr. Yeltsin? Not so good for the Russians, yet so good for us. For some inexplicable reason, never explored by our journalists, he deferred at the end of his life to Mr. Putin to “save Russia.” Save Russia from what? Drunk, yes, but always so nice to us was Mr. Yeltsin. Just like Mr. Gorbachev and his charming wife. So trusting.
Let me send this to Tim on twitter…
Absolutely. Really fine point you make about China too.
The other fiction reverberating around the West is that with Mr. Putin gone, someone compliable will take his place. Someone like Navalny, though no one seems to have noticed his lineage at all. Not someone who liked foreigners in Russia, just a short while ago. But now a paragon of democratic values.
Speaking of which, I mean, whatever happened to that nice man, Mr. Yeltsin? Not so good for the Russians, yet so good for us. For some inexplicable reason, never explored by our journalists, he deferred at the end of his life to Mr. Putin to “save Russia.” Save Russia from what? Drunk, yes, but always so nice to us was Mr. Yeltsin. Just like Mr. Gorbachev and his charming wife. So trusting.
I hold no brief for President Putin, but I recently read Prisoners of Geography by Tim Marshall. He makes the point that from Napoleon’s invasion in 1812, up to 1945, Russia has had to fight, on average, every 33 years on and around the North European Plain. That record and the losses entailed, must colour Russian thinking. We know that we, the West, are not going to advance on Moscow. But in Moscow they cling to the lessons of history and to the traditional response of seeking safety behind either difficult to cross territory, or behind buffer-states, of which Poland and Ukraine, with their flatter, easier to cross territories, have always been on Russia’s wish-list.
Russia will also be aware that the more they are weakened, or seen as weakened, may feed into concerns that one day China may not be so friendly and that vast areas of eastern Russia would be hard to defend from a Chinese invasion. NATO is not threatening Russia’s actual security, but Russia’s sense of security is another matter. Politically we are in a minefield.
‘We’re gonna drive the Russians out’, say the hawks. Then what? A generation of sectarian fighting in the east of the country and Crimea – all fed by money and guns coming in from Russia? The Irish Troubles on steroids for decades?
As ever, American policy is stupid and short-sighted and driven entirely by the needs of Wall Street and the arms manufacturers. Why has no-one even suggested the solution might be constitutional – as it was in Ireland?
If Russia “wins” the same could be said. I’m sure plenty of Ukrainians would continue the struggle in the same way.
… which is why there has to be a constitutional solution.
Which is? – and everybody will agree to right. What wars in history have had a constitutional solution ??
Which is? – and everybody will agree to right. What wars in history have had a constitutional solution ??
… which is why there has to be a constitutional solution.
Why? In my opinion because Russia has no intention of accepting an independent Ukraine not under Russian control. Russia could have kept the Donbas and Crimea indefinitely if they had not started this war. They might get them yet, if there was a way of guaraiteeing Ukrainian independence and freedom from Russian aggression afterwards. Unfortunately there does not seem to be.
Continued fixation on Wall Street. Wall Street doesnt care about the defense industry. I know I worked their for a decade. You need to redirect you military industrial complex argument to the people who actually care. Namely the politicians and the military leaders who are vested in it. They get the kickbacks, jobs, retirements from that complex. Wall Street could care less. Case in point as I mentioned earlier the whole complex made $62 billion in OP in 2021, Apple made almost $110 billion.
If Russia “wins” the same could be said. I’m sure plenty of Ukrainians would continue the struggle in the same way.
Why? In my opinion because Russia has no intention of accepting an independent Ukraine not under Russian control. Russia could have kept the Donbas and Crimea indefinitely if they had not started this war. They might get them yet, if there was a way of guaraiteeing Ukrainian independence and freedom from Russian aggression afterwards. Unfortunately there does not seem to be.
Continued fixation on Wall Street. Wall Street doesnt care about the defense industry. I know I worked their for a decade. You need to redirect you military industrial complex argument to the people who actually care. Namely the politicians and the military leaders who are vested in it. They get the kickbacks, jobs, retirements from that complex. Wall Street could care less. Case in point as I mentioned earlier the whole complex made $62 billion in OP in 2021, Apple made almost $110 billion.
‘We’re gonna drive the Russians out’, say the hawks. Then what? A generation of sectarian fighting in the east of the country and Crimea – all fed by money and guns coming in from Russia? The Irish Troubles on steroids for decades?
As ever, American policy is stupid and short-sighted and driven entirely by the needs of Wall Street and the arms manufacturers. Why has no-one even suggested the solution might be constitutional – as it was in Ireland?
East European citizens deserve better than a menacing Russia.
I used to disagree with Nato expansion, particularly in 2008 when Georgia and Ukraine were declined by Merkel and Sarkozy, but promised they could join ‘one day’. Personally, having seen what has happened, I don’t blame them. And yes, earlier on in the thread, someone mentioned Sweden’s historical stance of neutrality. Things have changed. It may well be that whilst Finland has said they wish to join with Sweden, given Turkey’s objections to the latter joining, Finland may have to join without. It’s all very well to say that Nato expansion was sticking two thumbs up to Russia. Then you’re invaded by Russia and you realise why the Eastern European countries formerly affiliated with the USSR were clamouring, neigh begging, to join the Nato Umbrella for protection. In the same way, Scholz was criticised for not giving up the Leopard 2s before US agreed to donate Abrams tanks. What people fail to mention is that it was the same in January with the IFV’s – Germany waited for America to go first. They rely on America for its security umbrella (given they don’t have nuclear weapons).
I think US was right – Abrams tanks are pretty unsutable for Ukraine. The fact that Germany leans on US is part of the problem though isn’t it?
If I were Germany Isabel, I’d lean on the US too. They’re not a nuclear power and Russia are within tank distance.
But much like Saddam’s Iraq in the mid 90s the Russian tank threat is massively overstated. I am not one to believe that Russia is not a threat, but the real risk has more to do with our limited political will (demonstrated over and over again for the last 30 years) then with what we/they are actually capable of.
Sorry, sore spot as I once had to try and convince the Commander of the Fifth Fleet (to which I was attached) that Saddam could push through Kuwait into Saudi in THREE DAYS after GW1. I argued all day with my Army brethren that he was a paper tiger especially with regards to his armor (note Russian equipment and training) but was still forced to present as “the Army guy”. But my counter-argument didnt drive the manpower/equipment/$ agenda forward. I left the Army shortly thereafter.
But much like Saddam’s Iraq in the mid 90s the Russian tank threat is massively overstated. I am not one to believe that Russia is not a threat, but the real risk has more to do with our limited political will (demonstrated over and over again for the last 30 years) then with what we/they are actually capable of.
Sorry, sore spot as I once had to try and convince the Commander of the Fifth Fleet (to which I was attached) that Saddam could push through Kuwait into Saudi in THREE DAYS after GW1. I argued all day with my Army brethren that he was a paper tiger especially with regards to his armor (note Russian equipment and training) but was still forced to present as “the Army guy”. But my counter-argument didnt drive the manpower/equipment/$ agenda forward. I left the Army shortly thereafter.
If I were Germany Isabel, I’d lean on the US too. They’re not a nuclear power and Russia are within tank distance.
I think US was right – Abrams tanks are pretty unsutable for Ukraine. The fact that Germany leans on US is part of the problem though isn’t it?
I used to disagree with Nato expansion, particularly in 2008 when Georgia and Ukraine were declined by Merkel and Sarkozy, but promised they could join ‘one day’. Personally, having seen what has happened, I don’t blame them. And yes, earlier on in the thread, someone mentioned Sweden’s historical stance of neutrality. Things have changed. It may well be that whilst Finland has said they wish to join with Sweden, given Turkey’s objections to the latter joining, Finland may have to join without. It’s all very well to say that Nato expansion was sticking two thumbs up to Russia. Then you’re invaded by Russia and you realise why the Eastern European countries formerly affiliated with the USSR were clamouring, neigh begging, to join the Nato Umbrella for protection. In the same way, Scholz was criticised for not giving up the Leopard 2s before US agreed to donate Abrams tanks. What people fail to mention is that it was the same in January with the IFV’s – Germany waited for America to go first. They rely on America for its security umbrella (given they don’t have nuclear weapons).
East European citizens deserve better than a menacing Russia.
Yes, there is a need for Westerners to get clear and precise information about Ukraine / Russia. Much of the sources used in Western media are in English, French, German or Ukrainian, which narrows the scope of discussion. There’s little emphasis on other key players, such as Israel and Central Asian powers, although Turkey gets some attention. It’s not helped by fluent Russian speakers in the West, who clip snippets from Russian propaganda and say ‘I watch this so you don’t have to.’ But now I’m curious about things being taken out of context, or only seeing a small part of the story.
The Prussian general Carl von Clausewitz cautioned that war involved the mobalisation of the military, the people and the government / parliament. It certainly feels as if I, an Australian trying to get into a Masters program in history, is mobalised. There is a significant investment in media communications to convey a certain narrative about eventual Ukraine success in Russia, and I’m questioning its authenticity. I don’t want to call anyone a liar here as I don’t know. Yet all sides in war engage in propaganda and misleading communication. It’s actually kind of crucial to eventual victory. That doesn’t, however, diminish the moral problems stemming from it. A Thomist might excuse this if the war itself was a righteous cause, but that’s a debate few leaders are willing to have.
In what way is Ukraine defending itself from an unprovoked Russian invasion not a “righteous cause” ? And if it isn’t, where exactly is your threshold for such a cause ?
In other words, this is a just war
No its a “special operation”.
No its a “special operation”.
In other words, this is a just war
Since I try to get both Russian and western sides on this, that is an important point.
However, the pro-Russianm channels are seething at Russia’s poor performance.
Might want to check out Strelkov’s telegram channel:
https://t.me/s/strelkovii
Google translate can turnn it to English.
All good points, I appreciate the link to Strelkov. To clarify, I have no issue in Ukraine fighting back Russian invasion, that is expected of any beseiged country. It’s also righteous to defend your soverignty. However, I’m sceptical of the grand claims made by (typically non-Ukrainians and non-Russians) of the war being this huge battle about democracy and liberal values. I’m less sympathetic to this, because it doesn’t match the cost it evokes, i.e tens of thousands dead Ukrainians and the country withered to dust. There’s an annoying trend to simplify harsh warfare into ideas, and whilst these sound lovely, I certainly belong to the realist school in International Relations. An American researcher at a Washington, DC think tank has different security objectives than a Ukrainian student. Because of this, their ‘war experience’ will vastly differ.
My original comment wasn’t to say what Ukraine should or shouldn’t do. Not my decision. Rather, this post was my viewpoint as an Australian, who engages with media frequently.
OK but you don’t really explain your scepticism. Yes some claims may be overblown but I think is reasonable to say that Russia is not democratic and Ukraine at least is trying and has traveled a long way in that direction. For that reason it should be strongly supported who does not believe “might is right”.
My scepticism is more of an instinct festering due to several reasons: 1) A massive mobalisation from Russia is coming, to launch another attack in early Spring 2) Europe is growing skeptical of giving weapons to Ukraine due to their own limiting supplies 3) I have no clue who to believe on death numbers, I’m resigned to ‘you’ll find out after the war.’
Of course, I could be wrong and it’s difficult to predict the outcome of this particular mass mobalisation, when we don’t know the quality of the recruits and military tactics. I’m more of a history person than a future one, tbh.
Sure, Russia more dictatorial and less free than Ukraine. The latter is willing to integrate into Europe. However, none of that changes the realities on the battlefield. Ideas don’t win wars. You can be on the right side, a completely moral angel…. and still lose.
Do I think Ukraine is losing? Don’t know. Do I think Russia is losing? Don’t know. With so much uncertainity, I find it hard to trust the intense declarations from English-language media, so sure of Ukrainian victory. Again, these are loose thoughts and not really a concrete, precise argument to submit to a peer-reviewed journal.
But Europe is giving more weapons to Ukraine and and not less ! Surely you’ve heard about the tanks by now ? Or is that “fake news” ?
Madeline, first of all. Well done for engaging this tough crowd. You are simply trying to understand and look at all arguments and they are coherent, eloquent and well written out. I congratulate you for that and it will put you in good stead for your Masters. Never be too afraid to posit your arguments and ask questions. In matters such as these, you will learn to stand your ground. Politeness is key, (even if others are not), and in this you are doing well. In response: (1) A massive offensive is coming from both sides and has long been expected. Previously, the weapons provided by the western collective were defensive. This is like the middle game of chess. They have moved on to offensive weapons to take back territory – Ukraine is trying to take back and Russia are trying to retain what they have amassed since the war began. As you know, when talks take place, they usually settle on the front lines at that time. Neither side is happy with what they have presently – Ukraine wants back what it lost in 2014 and Russia is trying to hang on to that, and the 4 oblasts in which they held the ‘referendums’. (2) Yes this is a concern. We are losing supplies. I saw an interesting argument recently where, instead of giving Ukraine 3 different types of tanks they had to learn how to operate (UK Challengers, German Leopards and US Abrams – for which (the Abrams) bigger bridges need to be built for transit because they are so heavy), countries with Leopards release more of them (Abrams are made to order and will take longer to arrive) and those countries Leopards’ are replaced at a later date. Some countries, such as Poland, have contracts for Abrams to be delivered anyway, further down the line, agreed well before the war started). In the UK per se we don’t need the tanks, as we are protected by the Channel (that is not to say that we are immune to other types of aerial and hybrid warfare). Some Nato countries have asked South Korea to step up artillery production for Ukraine but that’s an issue. They have North Korea to contend with (who side with Russia). It’s one thing for South Korea to have a contract to deliver military hardware to countries, (long standing pre 24/2/22 contracts), but another thing for them actually to provide artillery direct to Ukraine. (3) On death numbers, no side tells the truth: neither Russia or Ukraine. And remember in Russia you have different factions fighting the war: mobilised Russian soldiers and Private Military Contractors such as Wagner. You’re not getting the truth from anyone. Initially the Russian mobilised soldiers were poorly trained, but many of them have been training in Belarus – a Russian training ground. From there, they return to Russia before being sent to Ukraine – in that way, the assaults aren’t coming directly from Belarus per se; unless it’s an Iranian kamikaze drone that’s been launched from Belarusian soil. (4) Moldova and Ukraine were both granted EU candidate status in June 2022. (5) On who is succeeding on what side and by how much, again, you can’t fare better than by analysing the maps of the front lines. You can do this on Rochan Consulting’s Daily Ukraine Conflict Monitor, or on the Institute for the Study of War’s maps.
But Europe is giving more weapons to Ukraine and and not less ! Surely you’ve heard about the tanks by now ? Or is that “fake news” ?
Madeline, first of all. Well done for engaging this tough crowd. You are simply trying to understand and look at all arguments and they are coherent, eloquent and well written out. I congratulate you for that and it will put you in good stead for your Masters. Never be too afraid to posit your arguments and ask questions. In matters such as these, you will learn to stand your ground. Politeness is key, (even if others are not), and in this you are doing well. In response: (1) A massive offensive is coming from both sides and has long been expected. Previously, the weapons provided by the western collective were defensive. This is like the middle game of chess. They have moved on to offensive weapons to take back territory – Ukraine is trying to take back and Russia are trying to retain what they have amassed since the war began. As you know, when talks take place, they usually settle on the front lines at that time. Neither side is happy with what they have presently – Ukraine wants back what it lost in 2014 and Russia is trying to hang on to that, and the 4 oblasts in which they held the ‘referendums’. (2) Yes this is a concern. We are losing supplies. I saw an interesting argument recently where, instead of giving Ukraine 3 different types of tanks they had to learn how to operate (UK Challengers, German Leopards and US Abrams – for which (the Abrams) bigger bridges need to be built for transit because they are so heavy), countries with Leopards release more of them (Abrams are made to order and will take longer to arrive) and those countries Leopards’ are replaced at a later date. Some countries, such as Poland, have contracts for Abrams to be delivered anyway, further down the line, agreed well before the war started). In the UK per se we don’t need the tanks, as we are protected by the Channel (that is not to say that we are immune to other types of aerial and hybrid warfare). Some Nato countries have asked South Korea to step up artillery production for Ukraine but that’s an issue. They have North Korea to contend with (who side with Russia). It’s one thing for South Korea to have a contract to deliver military hardware to countries, (long standing pre 24/2/22 contracts), but another thing for them actually to provide artillery direct to Ukraine. (3) On death numbers, no side tells the truth: neither Russia or Ukraine. And remember in Russia you have different factions fighting the war: mobilised Russian soldiers and Private Military Contractors such as Wagner. You’re not getting the truth from anyone. Initially the Russian mobilised soldiers were poorly trained, but many of them have been training in Belarus – a Russian training ground. From there, they return to Russia before being sent to Ukraine – in that way, the assaults aren’t coming directly from Belarus per se; unless it’s an Iranian kamikaze drone that’s been launched from Belarusian soil. (4) Moldova and Ukraine were both granted EU candidate status in June 2022. (5) On who is succeeding on what side and by how much, again, you can’t fare better than by analysing the maps of the front lines. You can do this on Rochan Consulting’s Daily Ukraine Conflict Monitor, or on the Institute for the Study of War’s maps.
My scepticism is more of an instinct festering due to several reasons: 1) A massive mobalisation from Russia is coming, to launch another attack in early Spring 2) Europe is growing skeptical of giving weapons to Ukraine due to their own limiting supplies 3) I have no clue who to believe on death numbers, I’m resigned to ‘you’ll find out after the war.’
Of course, I could be wrong and it’s difficult to predict the outcome of this particular mass mobalisation, when we don’t know the quality of the recruits and military tactics. I’m more of a history person than a future one, tbh.
Sure, Russia more dictatorial and less free than Ukraine. The latter is willing to integrate into Europe. However, none of that changes the realities on the battlefield. Ideas don’t win wars. You can be on the right side, a completely moral angel…. and still lose.
Do I think Ukraine is losing? Don’t know. Do I think Russia is losing? Don’t know. With so much uncertainity, I find it hard to trust the intense declarations from English-language media, so sure of Ukrainian victory. Again, these are loose thoughts and not really a concrete, precise argument to submit to a peer-reviewed journal.
It’s about sovereignty and respecting borders. Not about ‘diplomacy’ and ‘ideas’. Russia has blatantly disregarded Ukraine’s widely accepted post Soviet dissolution sovereign borders of 1991. They have ignored the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, where Ukraine agreed to hand their nuclear weapons back to Russia, which guaranteed Ukrainian sovereign territory. Russia annexed Crimea and pulled out of the lease treaty it had with Ukraine for its Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol shorty thereafter – the lease had YEARS to go. Yes there is corruption on both sides. I am sure some of the money that has been sent to Ukraine has gone into corrupt pockets. If you look at the Russian argument that the West were the catalyst, given the post 1991 disbandment of the Warsaw Pact and the expansion of Nato, I think what Putin has done since 24/2 is not acceptable. Further, let’s look at the Warsaw Pact shall we? It invaded their fellow members: Hungary 1956.
Thanks for your kind and encouraging comments from this article. To be honest, I find the soverignty argument far more compelling and motivating than the ‘democracy’ and ‘ideas’ rhetoric sprouted not by Ukraine, but Anglosphere researchers and advocates. It kind of puts Ukraine on a pedastal, too: she must live up to this idea of a ‘European, liberal and Enlightened nation’ in order to be considered for support. This is sad, as Ukraine has many conservative and Christian people interested in tradition and nationhood. They may not support the politically correct causes sprouted from London, but they are good people who do not deserve this war.
One argument I hear against supporting Ukraine is ‘neo- n@zis’ and the corruption ongoing. Yet while true, soverignty still matters.
Thanks for your kind and encouraging comments from this article. To be honest, I find the soverignty argument far more compelling and motivating than the ‘democracy’ and ‘ideas’ rhetoric sprouted not by Ukraine, but Anglosphere researchers and advocates. It kind of puts Ukraine on a pedastal, too: she must live up to this idea of a ‘European, liberal and Enlightened nation’ in order to be considered for support. This is sad, as Ukraine has many conservative and Christian people interested in tradition and nationhood. They may not support the politically correct causes sprouted from London, but they are good people who do not deserve this war.
One argument I hear against supporting Ukraine is ‘neo- n@zis’ and the corruption ongoing. Yet while true, soverignty still matters.
OK but you don’t really explain your scepticism. Yes some claims may be overblown but I think is reasonable to say that Russia is not democratic and Ukraine at least is trying and has traveled a long way in that direction. For that reason it should be strongly supported who does not believe “might is right”.
It’s about sovereignty and respecting borders. Not about ‘diplomacy’ and ‘ideas’. Russia has blatantly disregarded Ukraine’s widely accepted post Soviet dissolution sovereign borders of 1991. They have ignored the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, where Ukraine agreed to hand their nuclear weapons back to Russia, which guaranteed Ukrainian sovereign territory. Russia annexed Crimea and pulled out of the lease treaty it had with Ukraine for its Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol shorty thereafter – the lease had YEARS to go. Yes there is corruption on both sides. I am sure some of the money that has been sent to Ukraine has gone into corrupt pockets. If you look at the Russian argument that the West were the catalyst, given the post 1991 disbandment of the Warsaw Pact and the expansion of Nato, I think what Putin has done since 24/2 is not acceptable. Further, let’s look at the Warsaw Pact shall we? It invaded their fellow members: Hungary 1956.
Google translate, or Google Lens translate. You just hover your phone over the text and ta da! It’s amazing!
All good points, I appreciate the link to Strelkov. To clarify, I have no issue in Ukraine fighting back Russian invasion, that is expected of any beseiged country. It’s also righteous to defend your soverignty. However, I’m sceptical of the grand claims made by (typically non-Ukrainians and non-Russians) of the war being this huge battle about democracy and liberal values. I’m less sympathetic to this, because it doesn’t match the cost it evokes, i.e tens of thousands dead Ukrainians and the country withered to dust. There’s an annoying trend to simplify harsh warfare into ideas, and whilst these sound lovely, I certainly belong to the realist school in International Relations. An American researcher at a Washington, DC think tank has different security objectives than a Ukrainian student. Because of this, their ‘war experience’ will vastly differ.
My original comment wasn’t to say what Ukraine should or shouldn’t do. Not my decision. Rather, this post was my viewpoint as an Australian, who engages with media frequently.
Google translate, or Google Lens translate. You just hover your phone over the text and ta da! It’s amazing!
You are right that all sides engage in different narratives. You could try google lens translate, which is brilliant for translating Russian texts on Telegram. Thing is, you then have to know your source. If you’re getting into a Masters, I would recommend you subscribe to Konrad Muzyka’s ‘Ukraine Conflict Monitor’ on Rochan Consulting. It’s not expensive – around $20 a month. If nothing else, it will give you some experience analysing maps of the front lines. He’s a military analyst based in Gdansk. He’s excellent on Belarus and often provides links to Russian telegram sources.
In what way is Ukraine defending itself from an unprovoked Russian invasion not a “righteous cause” ? And if it isn’t, where exactly is your threshold for such a cause ?
Since I try to get both Russian and western sides on this, that is an important point.
However, the pro-Russianm channels are seething at Russia’s poor performance.
Might want to check out Strelkov’s telegram channel:
https://t.me/s/strelkovii
Google translate can turnn it to English.
You are right that all sides engage in different narratives. You could try google lens translate, which is brilliant for translating Russian texts on Telegram. Thing is, you then have to know your source. If you’re getting into a Masters, I would recommend you subscribe to Konrad Muzyka’s ‘Ukraine Conflict Monitor’ on Rochan Consulting. It’s not expensive – around $20 a month. If nothing else, it will give you some experience analysing maps of the front lines. He’s a military analyst based in Gdansk. He’s excellent on Belarus and often provides links to Russian telegram sources.
Yes, there is a need for Westerners to get clear and precise information about Ukraine / Russia. Much of the sources used in Western media are in English, French, German or Ukrainian, which narrows the scope of discussion. There’s little emphasis on other key players, such as Israel and Central Asian powers, although Turkey gets some attention. It’s not helped by fluent Russian speakers in the West, who clip snippets from Russian propaganda and say ‘I watch this so you don’t have to.’ But now I’m curious about things being taken out of context, or only seeing a small part of the story.
The Prussian general Carl von Clausewitz cautioned that war involved the mobalisation of the military, the people and the government / parliament. It certainly feels as if I, an Australian trying to get into a Masters program in history, is mobalised. There is a significant investment in media communications to convey a certain narrative about eventual Ukraine success in Russia, and I’m questioning its authenticity. I don’t want to call anyone a liar here as I don’t know. Yet all sides in war engage in propaganda and misleading communication. It’s actually kind of crucial to eventual victory. That doesn’t, however, diminish the moral problems stemming from it. A Thomist might excuse this if the war itself was a righteous cause, but that’s a debate few leaders are willing to have.
The Russians aren’t interested in negotiation. Putin has already upped the numbers he plans to put into this next offensive. They’re doubling down, improving discipline and replacing generals – just as Stalin did in the last war.
Read Colonel Richard Kemp in today’s Telegraph.
And yet they were close to a deal last April
Well done Boris eh
Negotiations were on the cards, but the war is now in its middle game and both sides are preparing for an offensive. As you know, negotiations often end along the front lines that are in place at the time of the talks and neither side is happy with where they are right now. Russia will be lucky to keep Crimea. I think they should have taken what they could get back when peace was on the agenda, with a proposal for the 2014 status quo lines and a promise not to join Nato (but have some other security guarantees). That is no longer tenable.
Did I get a minus like? New to this so don’t understand. No offence taken if it was a minus like! All opinions welcomed!
I wouldnt worry about likes. The sides are pretty much set, especially for those that would provide a “dislike.” Comes with the territory.
I wouldnt worry about likes. The sides are pretty much set, especially for those that would provide a “dislike.” Comes with the territory.
They probably would have taken that deal but we’ll never now thanks to Boris.
Did I get a minus like? New to this so don’t understand. No offence taken if it was a minus like! All opinions welcomed!
They probably would have taken that deal but we’ll never now thanks to Boris.
Negotiations were on the cards, but the war is now in its middle game and both sides are preparing for an offensive. As you know, negotiations often end along the front lines that are in place at the time of the talks and neither side is happy with where they are right now. Russia will be lucky to keep Crimea. I think they should have taken what they could get back when peace was on the agenda, with a proposal for the 2014 status quo lines and a promise not to join Nato (but have some other security guarantees). That is no longer tenable.
And yet they were close to a deal last April
Well done Boris eh
The Russians aren’t interested in negotiation. Putin has already upped the numbers he plans to put into this next offensive. They’re doubling down, improving discipline and replacing generals – just as Stalin did in the last war.
Read Colonel Richard Kemp in today’s Telegraph.
I really struggle to understand how people who view this invasion in the way the author does, don’t see why giving in to someone like Putin is also dangerous.
Are they simply ignorant of his track record, over the last two decades?
Do they therefore actually believe he would abide by any sort of conciliatory peace agreement? Why do they believe this? Could they explain why this would work this time, when we have tried this with Putin before – and it has only ever emboldened him to escalate?
Do they also not see why it would be quite dangerous to set a precedent that all you have to do to get your way is threaten to use nuclear weapons, if we don’t give you everything you want? Why, in their minds, would this not actually increase the overall nuclear threat – in that it would encourage other countries that have such weapons to adopt the same strategy, and those that don’t, to build an arsenal in order to do so?
I get that nuclear threats are scary – they scare me too! I just really, really don’t get how anyone can think the right way to respond to them is to capitulate to all demands as fast as you can. It’s unfortunate that the world is not peaceful – but you can’t make it so by giving in to aggressors. They will see this as an opportunity to be ever more aggressive, and take whatever they want by force. This would deliver the opposite of a stable world.
Nice argument. Also you sound like a character from the board game ‘Cluedo’. Are you?
Nice argument. Also you sound like a character from the board game ‘Cluedo’. Are you?
I really struggle to understand how people who view this invasion in the way the author does, don’t see why giving in to someone like Putin is also dangerous.
Are they simply ignorant of his track record, over the last two decades?
Do they therefore actually believe he would abide by any sort of conciliatory peace agreement? Why do they believe this? Could they explain why this would work this time, when we have tried this with Putin before – and it has only ever emboldened him to escalate?
Do they also not see why it would be quite dangerous to set a precedent that all you have to do to get your way is threaten to use nuclear weapons, if we don’t give you everything you want? Why, in their minds, would this not actually increase the overall nuclear threat – in that it would encourage other countries that have such weapons to adopt the same strategy, and those that don’t, to build an arsenal in order to do so?
I get that nuclear threats are scary – they scare me too! I just really, really don’t get how anyone can think the right way to respond to them is to capitulate to all demands as fast as you can. It’s unfortunate that the world is not peaceful – but you can’t make it so by giving in to aggressors. They will see this as an opportunity to be ever more aggressive, and take whatever they want by force. This would deliver the opposite of a stable world.
The Cold War was not a true war, but a geopolitical long game with proxy battles and other characteristics like those of a real armed conflict between the principal nation states.
Thankfully we are not in a real war with Russia yet. Nor was the disastrous Vietnam War an actual war with China. That’s not a attempt to minimize a major, escalated conflict that involves a bloody war, but I think we should reserve the unqualified “w-word” for something that includes one-on-one military engagement, which I hope will never occur between the US and Russia.
The Cold War was not a true war, but a geopolitical long game with proxy battles and other characteristics like those of a real armed conflict between the principal nation states.
Thankfully we are not in a real war with Russia yet. Nor was the disastrous Vietnam War an actual war with China. That’s not a attempt to minimize a major, escalated conflict that involves a bloody war, but I think we should reserve the unqualified “w-word” for something that includes one-on-one military engagement, which I hope will never occur between the US and Russia.
This war is all down to Putin. Over the last twenty years he has assumed more and more power and listened to fewer and fewer advisors. This has resulted in him dreaming of rebuilding the old Soviet empire. This was to be his legacy.
Putin probably has one last roll of the dice to try and ensure that his ashes end up in the Kremlin wall. This is set to unfold over the next few months when the next large wave of conscripts will be launched against the Ukrainian carapace in the East.
With the benefit of Western advice and supplies I suspect the outcome will be similar to that of Hitler’s operation Barbarossa. If so, Putin will have failed in his dream – not Russia’s – and the country will have to emerge wiser and more prepared to be collaborative rather than combative.
This war is all down to Putin. Over the last twenty years he has assumed more and more power and listened to fewer and fewer advisors. This has resulted in him dreaming of rebuilding the old Soviet empire. This was to be his legacy.
Putin probably has one last roll of the dice to try and ensure that his ashes end up in the Kremlin wall. This is set to unfold over the next few months when the next large wave of conscripts will be launched against the Ukrainian carapace in the East.
With the benefit of Western advice and supplies I suspect the outcome will be similar to that of Hitler’s operation Barbarossa. If so, Putin will have failed in his dream – not Russia’s – and the country will have to emerge wiser and more prepared to be collaborative rather than combative.
“Western strategists who disastrously botched every major military forecast over the past 20 years, from Iraq to Afghanistan” are either in the ‘lets weaken Russia camp’ or in the ‘let’s back Ukraine till it wins back its territory’ camp. Both are unrealistic. Russia will not give up, since the economy of that vast country is replete with all kinds or resources and the Russians are well accustomed to hardship. Politically Ukraine will have to go on asking for, and potentially getting, resources and weapons from NATO. So it’s NATO against Russia, like it or not with all the fears about escalation to a nuclear exchange. The solution will require comprises on all sides. Ukraine agrees to give up its claim to Crimea and the Donbas rust bucket, both of which would most probably vote to be part of Russia in a plebiscite anyway: a tough sale for Zelensky but with the bitter medicine sweetened by accelerated EU and NATO membership. Everyone thinks they are winners which is the best outcome of all negotiations. Putin obviously: Ukraine since its border with Russia is now a border with the EU/NATO which will at worst deter or even at best prevent further incursions from a crazy Putin from all out war with NATO, and membership of the EU to help reconstruct the country: NATO which can now reduce defence expenditure and stop worrying about nuclear war: the EU (and specially Germany) gets a new member replete with natural resources (including lithium). What’s not to like? But who will have the political ability and determination to negotiate such a deal?
Not an unreasonable plan. But will Russia actually accept a Ukraine not under Russian control? No sign of that yet.
Not an unreasonable plan. But will Russia actually accept a Ukraine not under Russian control? No sign of that yet.
“Western strategists who disastrously botched every major military forecast over the past 20 years, from Iraq to Afghanistan” are either in the ‘lets weaken Russia camp’ or in the ‘let’s back Ukraine till it wins back its territory’ camp. Both are unrealistic. Russia will not give up, since the economy of that vast country is replete with all kinds or resources and the Russians are well accustomed to hardship. Politically Ukraine will have to go on asking for, and potentially getting, resources and weapons from NATO. So it’s NATO against Russia, like it or not with all the fears about escalation to a nuclear exchange. The solution will require comprises on all sides. Ukraine agrees to give up its claim to Crimea and the Donbas rust bucket, both of which would most probably vote to be part of Russia in a plebiscite anyway: a tough sale for Zelensky but with the bitter medicine sweetened by accelerated EU and NATO membership. Everyone thinks they are winners which is the best outcome of all negotiations. Putin obviously: Ukraine since its border with Russia is now a border with the EU/NATO which will at worst deter or even at best prevent further incursions from a crazy Putin from all out war with NATO, and membership of the EU to help reconstruct the country: NATO which can now reduce defence expenditure and stop worrying about nuclear war: the EU (and specially Germany) gets a new member replete with natural resources (including lithium). What’s not to like? But who will have the political ability and determination to negotiate such a deal?
The bad faith of Western, Ukrainian and Russian governments is on naked display.
They compete to send aid and rescue teams to the stricken people of Turkey and Syria while escalating their war and (in the case of Zelensky) touring Europe for tanks and aircraft.
The universe is well capable of handing out death, destruction and suffering in full measure. Why must these vain people, armed with words and ‘ideas’ add to the mayhem? They have not one scrap of honour or shame.
One thing only must be said to to the war party (on both sides).
JUST STOP IT
And to all those commenters here and elsewhere who egg them on and try to justify them this advice…
Button your lips and search your souls for the destruction within you.
Well said.
Well said.
The bad faith of Western, Ukrainian and Russian governments is on naked display.
They compete to send aid and rescue teams to the stricken people of Turkey and Syria while escalating their war and (in the case of Zelensky) touring Europe for tanks and aircraft.
The universe is well capable of handing out death, destruction and suffering in full measure. Why must these vain people, armed with words and ‘ideas’ add to the mayhem? They have not one scrap of honour or shame.
One thing only must be said to to the war party (on both sides).
JUST STOP IT
And to all those commenters here and elsewhere who egg them on and try to justify them this advice…
Button your lips and search your souls for the destruction within you.
Going through the comments on this article fills me with dread, since Unherd is presumably supposed to be a gathering place for people who don’t just blindly consume MSM garbage. But when it comes to this war, that narrative seems to be embraced wholeheartedly amongst a majority of commenters.
I suspect most of the avid pro-war crowd here are British or American and therefore either less concerned with the prospect of nuclear fallout due to geography (assuming only Ukraine gets nuked) or just happy that they’re actually doing well in a war for a change (ironically, the key to success seems to be not actually using their militaries).
Take it from someone who has lived through a war (that the Americans intervened in) – there are no winners. I doubt you’ll be looking back positively on your war fervor if and when your kids are sent to Ukraine/Russia to die for the sake of an American powerplay. Because let’s be honest, this isn’t about Ukraine (never was), it’s about Russia and the US/UK wanting to remove an obstacle to their ability to prance around the world starting wars/toppling governments without good reason. My favorite example of this being Iraq, a country invaded on a pretext significantly weaker (WMDs that never existed – a crime no one has answered for btw) than the one the Russians have offered here (the repression of an ethnic minority – a particular favorite of American interventionism in recent years, lets not forget).
This is not to say that the Russians are right or justified in their actions, but everyone here saying that it’s about international norms/treaties, human rights or morality is either drinking the MSM Kool-aid or lying – this war isn’t about Ukraine and it’s hypocritical to pretend that it is. Yemen, Myanmar and China are just some of the places where the “international community” has declined to intervene, not because it “wouldn’t be right” but because the Americans don’t care or don’t dare.
The Ukrainians are disposable manpower for the west, as attested to by a number of American politicians (Lindsey Graham in particular said it openly) and, to be fair, have proven to be better than even western militaries at accomplishing western war goals (weakening Russia in this instance).
Ukraine is therefore a Means to American Ends and this is why they aren’t being properly supported, instead they get just enough to keep the Russians on the ropes and to allow for a gradual, apparently imperceptible, escalation, which benefits the US (and possibly China), while Europe, Africa, Ukraine and Russia lose out in a variety of ways.
Ukraine is neither part of the EU nor NATO – attacking them is not the same as attacking Poland and comparing Putin to Hitler is not analysis, it’s just a wet dream/pre-justification for a certain brand of neocon warmonger.
I only hope we don’t all live to regret it.
So nice to hear a sane, sensible, intelligent response.
So nice to hear a sane, sensible, intelligent response.
Going through the comments on this article fills me with dread, since Unherd is presumably supposed to be a gathering place for people who don’t just blindly consume MSM garbage. But when it comes to this war, that narrative seems to be embraced wholeheartedly amongst a majority of commenters.
I suspect most of the avid pro-war crowd here are British or American and therefore either less concerned with the prospect of nuclear fallout due to geography (assuming only Ukraine gets nuked) or just happy that they’re actually doing well in a war for a change (ironically, the key to success seems to be not actually using their militaries).
Take it from someone who has lived through a war (that the Americans intervened in) – there are no winners. I doubt you’ll be looking back positively on your war fervor if and when your kids are sent to Ukraine/Russia to die for the sake of an American powerplay. Because let’s be honest, this isn’t about Ukraine (never was), it’s about Russia and the US/UK wanting to remove an obstacle to their ability to prance around the world starting wars/toppling governments without good reason. My favorite example of this being Iraq, a country invaded on a pretext significantly weaker (WMDs that never existed – a crime no one has answered for btw) than the one the Russians have offered here (the repression of an ethnic minority – a particular favorite of American interventionism in recent years, lets not forget).
This is not to say that the Russians are right or justified in their actions, but everyone here saying that it’s about international norms/treaties, human rights or morality is either drinking the MSM Kool-aid or lying – this war isn’t about Ukraine and it’s hypocritical to pretend that it is. Yemen, Myanmar and China are just some of the places where the “international community” has declined to intervene, not because it “wouldn’t be right” but because the Americans don’t care or don’t dare.
The Ukrainians are disposable manpower for the west, as attested to by a number of American politicians (Lindsey Graham in particular said it openly) and, to be fair, have proven to be better than even western militaries at accomplishing western war goals (weakening Russia in this instance).
Ukraine is therefore a Means to American Ends and this is why they aren’t being properly supported, instead they get just enough to keep the Russians on the ropes and to allow for a gradual, apparently imperceptible, escalation, which benefits the US (and possibly China), while Europe, Africa, Ukraine and Russia lose out in a variety of ways.
Ukraine is neither part of the EU nor NATO – attacking them is not the same as attacking Poland and comparing Putin to Hitler is not analysis, it’s just a wet dream/pre-justification for a certain brand of neocon warmonger.
I only hope we don’t all live to regret it.
Douglas Macgregor has provided a sobering, contrarian assessment of this conflict throughout and it is difficult to dismiss his argument that Russia still has the manpower and means to crush the Ukrainians. By numbers alone the Russians can force the agenda and at some point the west has to decide if there really is a red line. Unfortunately it is difficult to see anything other than escalation of the war.
But how many more people can Putin mobilise before it starts to cause anger in Russia? It’s one thing sending convicts and peasants from far flung Siberia into the meat grinder, it’s quite another when numerous young men from wealthier Moscow and St Petersburg are coming home in body bags
Continue sending men from the outer reaches of the federation. I suspect the bulk of draft dodgers are those from the metropolitan centres and besides the educated elite likely has more opportunity to avoid the draft on account of occupation or political connections. I understand your point but Russia is a big country and fighting in the army is invariably better paid than other options.
Continue sending men from the outer reaches of the federation. I suspect the bulk of draft dodgers are those from the metropolitan centres and besides the educated elite likely has more opportunity to avoid the draft on account of occupation or political connections. I understand your point but Russia is a big country and fighting in the army is invariably better paid than other options.
But how many more people can Putin mobilise before it starts to cause anger in Russia? It’s one thing sending convicts and peasants from far flung Siberia into the meat grinder, it’s quite another when numerous young men from wealthier Moscow and St Petersburg are coming home in body bags
Douglas Macgregor has provided a sobering, contrarian assessment of this conflict throughout and it is difficult to dismiss his argument that Russia still has the manpower and means to crush the Ukrainians. By numbers alone the Russians can force the agenda and at some point the west has to decide if there really is a red line. Unfortunately it is difficult to see anything other than escalation of the war.
“The truth is that, from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine”
Bullshit. Putin is just trying to get his empire back and rhetoric aside nobody really believes that Russia is ‘existentially’ threatened. The very worst thing that will happen to Russia is that it is pushed out of Ukraine — that it’s invasion fails. Nobody on the planet has the slightest intention of invading Russia. NATO agonizes about escalation, they/we wish to hell this crime had never been committed but alas there is no choice but to stop Putin from getting away with it.
“The truth is that, from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine”
Bullshit. Putin is just trying to get his empire back and rhetoric aside nobody really believes that Russia is ‘existentially’ threatened. The very worst thing that will happen to Russia is that it is pushed out of Ukraine — that it’s invasion fails. Nobody on the planet has the slightest intention of invading Russia. NATO agonizes about escalation, they/we wish to hell this crime had never been committed but alas there is no choice but to stop Putin from getting away with it.
The worst arguement to be in is where both sides know they are right.
Isn’t that the definition of an argument?
An argument should be constructive. If you ‘know’ you are right, there is no room for engagement, compromise, understanding or advancement of knowledge
That’s a debate.
Argument etymology:
c. 1300, “to make reasoned statements to prove or refute a proposition,” from Old French arguer“maintain an opinion or view; harry, reproach, accuse, blame” (12c.), ultimately from Latin arguere “make clear, make known, prove, declare, demonstrate” (from a suffixed form of PIE root *arg- “to shine; white”). The transmission to French might be via arguere in a Medieval Latin sense of “to argue,” or from Latin argutare “to prattle, prate,” frequentative of arguere.
De Vaan says arguere is probably “a denominative verb ‘to make bright, enlighten’ to an adj. *argu- ‘bright’ as continued in argutus and outside Italic.” He cites a closely similar formation in Hittite arkuuae- “to make a plea.” The meaning “to oppose, dispute, contend in argument” is from late 14c. Related: Argued; arguing.
Very good. Now ask yourself what is understood when a person says, ‘I had an argument with Bob’, vs ‘Bob and I debated’.
A debate is an argument from differing perspectives, with the hope that at the end, differences are considered. I think that argument in the etymological sense could be considered thus. Of course, sometimes meanings from words can alter over time and yes, there can be positive argument (debate); and negative arguments (fighting with someone). Both have their context, depending on how they are used, but are correct in either.
You’ve probably seen this already, art imitating life!
https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-xiaomi-rev1&cs=0&sxsrf=AJOqlzX2WXeetd5VOVQ0R0-qEuIC_Z-LTg:1676134716242&q=5+minute+argument&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjKguWy-I39AhUb_rsIHVFbA4MQpboHKAB6BAgBEA8&biw=393&bih=682&dpr=2.75
You’ve probably seen this already, art imitating life!
https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-xiaomi-rev1&cs=0&sxsrf=AJOqlzX2WXeetd5VOVQ0R0-qEuIC_Z-LTg:1676134716242&q=5+minute+argument&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjKguWy-I39AhUb_rsIHVFbA4MQpboHKAB6BAgBEA8&biw=393&bih=682&dpr=2.75
A debate is an argument from differing perspectives, with the hope that at the end, differences are considered. I think that argument in the etymological sense could be considered thus. Of course, sometimes meanings from words can alter over time and yes, there can be positive argument (debate); and negative arguments (fighting with someone). Both have their context, depending on how they are used, but are correct in either.
Very good. Now ask yourself what is understood when a person says, ‘I had an argument with Bob’, vs ‘Bob and I debated’.
Argument etymology:
c. 1300, “to make reasoned statements to prove or refute a proposition,” from Old French arguer“maintain an opinion or view; harry, reproach, accuse, blame” (12c.), ultimately from Latin arguere “make clear, make known, prove, declare, demonstrate” (from a suffixed form of PIE root *arg- “to shine; white”). The transmission to French might be via arguere in a Medieval Latin sense of “to argue,” or from Latin argutare “to prattle, prate,” frequentative of arguere.
De Vaan says arguere is probably “a denominative verb ‘to make bright, enlighten’ to an adj. *argu- ‘bright’ as continued in argutus and outside Italic.” He cites a closely similar formation in Hittite arkuuae- “to make a plea.” The meaning “to oppose, dispute, contend in argument” is from late 14c. Related: Argued; arguing.
That’s a debate.
An argument should be constructive. If you ‘know’ you are right, there is no room for engagement, compromise, understanding or advancement of knowledge
Isn’t that the definition of an argument?
The worst arguement to be in is where both sides know they are right.
Rather amusing that it’s Fazi, and not Putin, who is raising the spectre of nuclear war. Probably because Putin is more afraid of it than we are.
The writer needs to understand how almost all wars end.
Either A) with one side achieves most of its goals, or
B) with a stalemate.
Calls for negotiation almost never take effect until one of the two occurs.
The writer’s article has prompted a pretty good discussion! No harm in that!
The writer’s article has prompted a pretty good discussion! No harm in that!
Rather amusing that it’s Fazi, and not Putin, who is raising the spectre of nuclear war. Probably because Putin is more afraid of it than we are.
The writer needs to understand how almost all wars end.
Either A) with one side achieves most of its goals, or
B) with a stalemate.
Calls for negotiation almost never take effect until one of the two occurs.
The author could well be correct, in implying that ‘We are already at war with Russia”. The same might have been said about both Korea or Vietnam, in which Russia (USSR) supplied, not only ‘advanced’ weaponry, but in the case of the former, active military combatants (not forgetting China’s ‘small’ contribution), and in the second ‘technical’ support. Even in defeat, of the US, this didn’t necessarily imply escalation.
I take issue with the description of Ukraine being compared to Afghanistan. Principally because Ukraine, unlike Afghanistan, for all it’s faults, isn’t a fractious tribal society. People (Countries) involve themselves in Afghanistan because it is an unstable mess.
F16’s to Ukraine add nothing, and are a needless distraction, if not provocation (if only in ‘twitterarty’ terms). Not only are they ‘complex’ weapon systems, that require intensive training, but, like Russian tanks, add nothing ‘extraordinary’ unless employed ‘correctly’, as an all encompassing, sophisticated, plan. It’s not WW 1, air warfare has moved on.
Oh aerial bombardment/warfare is VERY much still happening … I think the argument about training on the F16s is not meant for the current war in Ukraine, but as a deterrence for any future land grabs (should this war ever end…)
Oh aerial bombardment/warfare is VERY much still happening … I think the argument about training on the F16s is not meant for the current war in Ukraine, but as a deterrence for any future land grabs (should this war ever end…)
The author could well be correct, in implying that ‘We are already at war with Russia”. The same might have been said about both Korea or Vietnam, in which Russia (USSR) supplied, not only ‘advanced’ weaponry, but in the case of the former, active military combatants (not forgetting China’s ‘small’ contribution), and in the second ‘technical’ support. Even in defeat, of the US, this didn’t necessarily imply escalation.
I take issue with the description of Ukraine being compared to Afghanistan. Principally because Ukraine, unlike Afghanistan, for all it’s faults, isn’t a fractious tribal society. People (Countries) involve themselves in Afghanistan because it is an unstable mess.
F16’s to Ukraine add nothing, and are a needless distraction, if not provocation (if only in ‘twitterarty’ terms). Not only are they ‘complex’ weapon systems, that require intensive training, but, like Russian tanks, add nothing ‘extraordinary’ unless employed ‘correctly’, as an all encompassing, sophisticated, plan. It’s not WW 1, air warfare has moved on.
A bit of a statement of the obvious, I forget who said it but all wars are simply a means of progressing diplomacy.
of course there will be a negotiated solution… when the two sides “condition the situation on the ground” to the point both sides are willing to talk.
one or other side will beat up the other to the point where they recognise jaw jaw is better than war war…. Until then we continue conditioning the environment
This war is about more than ‘progressing diplomacy’. Russia invaded Ukraine violently and annexed territory. In 2014 it was less aggressive.
Another minus! Still figuring this out!
Another minus! Still figuring this out!
This war is about more than ‘progressing diplomacy’. Russia invaded Ukraine violently and annexed territory. In 2014 it was less aggressive.
A bit of a statement of the obvious, I forget who said it but all wars are simply a means of progressing diplomacy.
of course there will be a negotiated solution… when the two sides “condition the situation on the ground” to the point both sides are willing to talk.
one or other side will beat up the other to the point where they recognise jaw jaw is better than war war…. Until then we continue conditioning the environment
The Doctrine of Affirmative Consent anyone?
“When I was in DC in November [2021], before the invasion, and asked for Stingers, they told me it was impossible. Now it’s possible. When I asked for 155-millimeter guns, the answer was no. HIMARS, no. HARM [missiles], no. Now all of that is a yes. Therefore, I’m certain that tomorrow there will be…F-16s.”
She said, no, she would not go out with me, ever…but next week we were on a date. When I asked for a kiss, she said ‘Not on your life’, but we spent that evening making-out. And when I asked, and when I asked, and when I asked again — it was no, no, a thousand times no. Today all of that is a yes! I’m certain now; aren’t you?
We like fairytales. Who doesn’t? Beautiful princess, the handsome prince, the doofus of a dragon, and the magic sword — what’s not to like? But when we confuse foreign policy with those fairytales….when we convince ourselves that our nuclear enemy will accept (graciously!) an on-the ground defeat of their military by a 3rd rate opponent wielding the 1st rate weaponry we gave them….we’re believing the fairytale.
Nuclear war, even so-called limited nuclear war with low-yield ground-burst nukes taking out major chunks of the Ukrainian army….or maybe (following our Hiroshima lead) just Kharkiv or Donetsk? What then would we do? Are we prepared to answer that question? Is NATO? Do we respond t*t for tat and hope it ends there? What happens if Krakow is the t*t for tat for t*t response?
Fairytales are fine at bedtime. Less fine in foreign policy..and downright horrible as military strategy involving nuclear city-killers.
As much as the West might prefer a seriously chastened and militarily weakened Russia, believing that Putin would accept a military humiliation when other means are at his disposal to STOP that humiliation…that wishful thinking calculation would be a horrendously bloody mistake (even if the initial blood is all Ukrainian).
The Doctrine of Affirmative Consent anyone?
“When I was in DC in November [2021], before the invasion, and asked for Stingers, they told me it was impossible. Now it’s possible. When I asked for 155-millimeter guns, the answer was no. HIMARS, no. HARM [missiles], no. Now all of that is a yes. Therefore, I’m certain that tomorrow there will be…F-16s.”
She said, no, she would not go out with me, ever…but next week we were on a date. When I asked for a kiss, she said ‘Not on your life’, but we spent that evening making-out. And when I asked, and when I asked, and when I asked again — it was no, no, a thousand times no. Today all of that is a yes! I’m certain now; aren’t you?
We like fairytales. Who doesn’t? Beautiful princess, the handsome prince, the doofus of a dragon, and the magic sword — what’s not to like? But when we confuse foreign policy with those fairytales….when we convince ourselves that our nuclear enemy will accept (graciously!) an on-the ground defeat of their military by a 3rd rate opponent wielding the 1st rate weaponry we gave them….we’re believing the fairytale.
Nuclear war, even so-called limited nuclear war with low-yield ground-burst nukes taking out major chunks of the Ukrainian army….or maybe (following our Hiroshima lead) just Kharkiv or Donetsk? What then would we do? Are we prepared to answer that question? Is NATO? Do we respond t*t for tat and hope it ends there? What happens if Krakow is the t*t for tat for t*t response?
Fairytales are fine at bedtime. Less fine in foreign policy..and downright horrible as military strategy involving nuclear city-killers.
As much as the West might prefer a seriously chastened and militarily weakened Russia, believing that Putin would accept a military humiliation when other means are at his disposal to STOP that humiliation…that wishful thinking calculation would be a horrendously bloody mistake (even if the initial blood is all Ukrainian).
No country seems to be concerned any longer about the effect the Ukrainian war is having on under-developed countries – in Africa particularly – where they have had to pay grossly increased prices for fuel and cannot get fertilizer for their poor, over-used land..
In any escalation, China is not going to support American-led NATO and would be supported by the countries in the Far East.. (Also, it is not America which is going to be hit with nuclear strikes).
If I remember correctly, at the outset of this conflict, support for the war in Ukraine, received only 37 votes in the UN with 5 against and the rest of the world abstaining.. It is time there was a reality check amongst the members there. They would be involved if this conflict escalated into a world war…
“…support for the Ukraine received only 37 votes…” – unsurprising. Most of the World is run by vicious psychopaths, keen to emulate Czar Putin and happy to encourage him. Fight them now, when we are (comparatively) strong…or close our eyes, stop our ears and go la-la-la…and then find we have to fight them when we are weak…
There is no third alternative…the World is full of bad people who hate us, want to kill us, and will do so if we let them…let’s not kid ourselves that abject self-abasement will save us…fight, or die…
You sound like a demented Zi¤nist with that level of Pananoia! Some of those countries are a little upset that the US invaded them and killed 100s of thousands of their people. Others are slightly miffed that the US toppled their democratically elected govts. And a few are not all that happy at having their oil and other resources looted. Several are grateful to Russia for assistance and even more grateful for China’s belt and road initiatives. It seems some countries are less intimidated by US hegemony, see the US empire toppling and are backing the newly emerging winners in world domination.
You sound like a demented Zi¤nist with that level of Pananoia! Some of those countries are a little upset that the US invaded them and killed 100s of thousands of their people. Others are slightly miffed that the US toppled their democratically elected govts. And a few are not all that happy at having their oil and other resources looted. Several are grateful to Russia for assistance and even more grateful for China’s belt and road initiatives. It seems some countries are less intimidated by US hegemony, see the US empire toppling and are backing the newly emerging winners in world domination.
Your analysis has just one misconception: that the nukes won’t hit the US.. one minute after an American made nuke hits mainland Russia it’s game over …for all of us!
“…support for the Ukraine received only 37 votes…” – unsurprising. Most of the World is run by vicious psychopaths, keen to emulate Czar Putin and happy to encourage him. Fight them now, when we are (comparatively) strong…or close our eyes, stop our ears and go la-la-la…and then find we have to fight them when we are weak…
There is no third alternative…the World is full of bad people who hate us, want to kill us, and will do so if we let them…let’s not kid ourselves that abject self-abasement will save us…fight, or die…
Your analysis has just one misconception: that the nukes won’t hit the US.. one minute after an American made nuke hits mainland Russia it’s game over …for all of us!
No country seems to be concerned any longer about the effect the Ukrainian war is having on under-developed countries – in Africa particularly – where they have had to pay grossly increased prices for fuel and cannot get fertilizer for their poor, over-used land..
In any escalation, China is not going to support American-led NATO and would be supported by the countries in the Far East.. (Also, it is not America which is going to be hit with nuclear strikes).
If I remember correctly, at the outset of this conflict, support for the war in Ukraine, received only 37 votes in the UN with 5 against and the rest of the world abstaining.. It is time there was a reality check amongst the members there. They would be involved if this conflict escalated into a world war…
All through the Cold War (which sound strategic analysis would regard as WW III fought in slow-motion thanks to nuclear deterrence), the world was clear-eyed enough to avoid nuclear war when the stakes were which social system would dominate the planet and control of dozens of countries was at stake. How? By the principals never going at it directly — instead there were a series of campaigns (called “wars”, but really all part of the slow-motion WW III) which were fought by proxies on one side or both (though in Korea, there probably were some dogfights between American and Soviet pilots).
So now the West fights Putin’s revanchism by proxy. Does any serious analyst really think that the sober-mindedness that prevailed all through the Cold War has so eroded that one side or the other will blow up the planet over control of Ukraine?
All through the Cold War (which sound strategic analysis would regard as WW III fought in slow-motion thanks to nuclear deterrence), the world was clear-eyed enough to avoid nuclear war when the stakes were which social system would dominate the planet and control of dozens of countries was at stake. How? By the principals never going at it directly — instead there were a series of campaigns (called “wars”, but really all part of the slow-motion WW III) which were fought by proxies on one side or both (though in Korea, there probably were some dogfights between American and Soviet pilots).
So now the West fights Putin’s revanchism by proxy. Does any serious analyst really think that the sober-mindedness that prevailed all through the Cold War has so eroded that one side or the other will blow up the planet over control of Ukraine?
Such an orchestra playing “must win” symphony in the comments! I am losing interest in the present conflict – it is pretty clear to me that the Russians are going to win and dictate the terms pretty soon. Hundred or two hundred tanks or even a handful of fighters are not going to make a dent. Red army have already destroyed thousands of similar pieces of equipment. Their war production is quadrupled, IMF reports a minor GDP growth in ’23 and financial system is stable. They are laughing at the sanctions. That’s it, folks. We’ll see now how concern Mr. Biden + adm is going to be about life loss and that would be a nice pretext to lay options for Mr. Putin. Well, they did not care much when Ukraine still had a chance.
Now go and put your down-votes below and keep being delusional.
“Their war production is quadrupled”. What a joke! What Red army? As for this Red army having destroyed thousands of Ukrainian tanks and fighters, again what a joke. Notwithstanding significant deliveries of western weapons and munitions to Ukraine (but tiny compared with the combined western inventories), far away the biggest supplier of weapons to Ukraine is the Russian army.
BTW “Andy”, English is not your mother tongue. Is your real name Andrei by any chance?
“Their war production is quadrupled”. What a joke! What Red army? As for this Red army having destroyed thousands of Ukrainian tanks and fighters, again what a joke. Notwithstanding significant deliveries of western weapons and munitions to Ukraine (but tiny compared with the combined western inventories), far away the biggest supplier of weapons to Ukraine is the Russian army.
BTW “Andy”, English is not your mother tongue. Is your real name Andrei by any chance?
Such an orchestra playing “must win” symphony in the comments! I am losing interest in the present conflict – it is pretty clear to me that the Russians are going to win and dictate the terms pretty soon. Hundred or two hundred tanks or even a handful of fighters are not going to make a dent. Red army have already destroyed thousands of similar pieces of equipment. Their war production is quadrupled, IMF reports a minor GDP growth in ’23 and financial system is stable. They are laughing at the sanctions. That’s it, folks. We’ll see now how concern Mr. Biden + adm is going to be about life loss and that would be a nice pretext to lay options for Mr. Putin. Well, they did not care much when Ukraine still had a chance.
Now go and put your down-votes below and keep being delusional.
Objective and truthful. This awful war was avoidable if only the Realists had not been sidelined in US policy. But so much of US foreign policy, and particularly post-Soviet policy, seems driven by people whose families had in previous generations taken refuge from European troubles in the US, and who purposefully entered their ‘calling’ at State or CIA to right the wrongs, as they saw them, of European history from the new Rome.
A visceral loathing of Russia and everything Russian is palpably at the core of their world view. They displaced the old professional foreign policy core who lacked their decisiveness, who they shifted out of their positions with contempt, while rallying with anyone who shared their views, such as John Bolton and a large swathe of pleasant, well-intentioned muscular religious soldiers. Madeleine Albright was a prime example. They are for the most part extremists, convinced they are saving the world from a fate worse than death.
Others in dark and dingy Old Europe, such as the Ukrainians, must make the vital personal sacrifices necessary to secure the world against what their parents, or grandparents, or great-great-great grandparents endured, but the great beacon of enduring freedom, standing alone in its massive continental isolation, is there to resolutely help.
Those of us who have no direct experience of this mania have any idea that it is at the very heart of this conflict. No idea, as the US sends the world into chaos from what was, in 1991, an almost perfectly clear blue sky. And a genuine new post-Soviet beginning.
To the Americans, back to the Mayflower, Europe has always needed saving. Back then they could only pray. Now they have more material means, furnished by self-help and Providence. And, by God, they’re going to save Europe to death.
Good observations Andrew and it is surprising that they continue to fly under the radar. The visceral hatred of Russia by the children of Central European refugees that happen to run the US foreign policy should be something that gathers a wider appreciation.
They don’t want peace, they want revenge. These are seriously deluded people and to me, quite frightening.
Good observations Andrew and it is surprising that they continue to fly under the radar. The visceral hatred of Russia by the children of Central European refugees that happen to run the US foreign policy should be something that gathers a wider appreciation.
They don’t want peace, they want revenge. These are seriously deluded people and to me, quite frightening.
Objective and truthful. This awful war was avoidable if only the Realists had not been sidelined in US policy. But so much of US foreign policy, and particularly post-Soviet policy, seems driven by people whose families had in previous generations taken refuge from European troubles in the US, and who purposefully entered their ‘calling’ at State or CIA to right the wrongs, as they saw them, of European history from the new Rome.
A visceral loathing of Russia and everything Russian is palpably at the core of their world view. They displaced the old professional foreign policy core who lacked their decisiveness, who they shifted out of their positions with contempt, while rallying with anyone who shared their views, such as John Bolton and a large swathe of pleasant, well-intentioned muscular religious soldiers. Madeleine Albright was a prime example. They are for the most part extremists, convinced they are saving the world from a fate worse than death.
Others in dark and dingy Old Europe, such as the Ukrainians, must make the vital personal sacrifices necessary to secure the world against what their parents, or grandparents, or great-great-great grandparents endured, but the great beacon of enduring freedom, standing alone in its massive continental isolation, is there to resolutely help.
Those of us who have no direct experience of this mania have any idea that it is at the very heart of this conflict. No idea, as the US sends the world into chaos from what was, in 1991, an almost perfectly clear blue sky. And a genuine new post-Soviet beginning.
To the Americans, back to the Mayflower, Europe has always needed saving. Back then they could only pray. Now they have more material means, furnished by self-help and Providence. And, by God, they’re going to save Europe to death.
Everyone should read the full article by Douglas Macgregor. He thinks Ukraine is losing and their forces will be overrun by the Russians in the spring. This is the exact opposite of what the American media is reporting. Americans are getting a steady diet of brave Ukrainians standing up to Russia’s onslaught and of atrocities against civilians. It should concern everyone when the media in the West spouts the party line and citizens don’t really know what is going on. It is also concerning that so many have bought into the propaganda.
This war could have been avoided. The Biden administration refused to negotiate with Russia to prevent it. Now we are pouring arms paid for by our taxes into a losing cause. This is ridiculous, all we are doing is filling the coffers of defense companies. The good news is as long as Russia is winning, they won’t resort nuclear weapons. Let’s hope it’s over by the fall. Biden lost my vote when he let this conflict start and he will lose everyone else’s when he is forced to back down in his proxy war.
“all we are doing is filling the coffers of defense companies”
Isn’t that the whole point. Wall St makes its biggest profits from defence contractors. To continue doing that the bankers have to frighten American taxpayers into accepting the pauperisation of the majority. Putin fits the bill perfectly.
If the west believed the Ukrainians would be easily overrun I don’t think they’d be handing over billions of dollars, as well as the latest military equipment to the Ukrainians
Of course they would, they will be blamed for the defeat if they don’t give Zelensky everything he wants. A lot of people in the West are making money from this war as well.
The west simply wouldn’t risk their modern equipment and technology falling into Russian hands if defeat was certain
I suspect much of it already has fallen into Russian hands…and the black market. Please don’t forget that Ukraine is the second most corrupt country in Europe, behind Russia, not some shining beacon of democracy as the Western press would have you believe.
I suspect much of it already has fallen into Russian hands…and the black market. Please don’t forget that Ukraine is the second most corrupt country in Europe, behind Russia, not some shining beacon of democracy as the Western press would have you believe.
The west simply wouldn’t risk their modern equipment and technology falling into Russian hands if defeat was certain
Of course they would, they will be blamed for the defeat if they don’t give Zelensky everything he wants. A lot of people in the West are making money from this war as well.
Link to article you mention in the first sentence?
The link is in the piece where he mentions Macgregor.
Struggling to find it. This is quite a long debate/thread. Apologies. Worth reading the argument in detail? If so, would you mind re-sending the link? So sorry to disturb.
This Time It’s Different – The American Conservative
Many thanks for the link. Will take a look tomorrow!
Many thanks for the link. Will take a look tomorrow!
This Time It’s Different – The American Conservative
Struggling to find it. This is quite a long debate/thread. Apologies. Worth reading the argument in detail? If so, would you mind re-sending the link? So sorry to disturb.
Look for yourself on YouTube, MacGregor has not been shy in broadcasting his views. Plenty of content to choose from.
Thank you.
Thank you.
The link is in the piece where he mentions Macgregor.
Look for yourself on YouTube, MacGregor has not been shy in broadcasting his views. Plenty of content to choose from.
“all we are doing is filling the coffers of defense companies”
Isn’t that the whole point. Wall St makes its biggest profits from defence contractors. To continue doing that the bankers have to frighten American taxpayers into accepting the pauperisation of the majority. Putin fits the bill perfectly.
If the west believed the Ukrainians would be easily overrun I don’t think they’d be handing over billions of dollars, as well as the latest military equipment to the Ukrainians
Link to article you mention in the first sentence?
Everyone should read the full article by Douglas Macgregor. He thinks Ukraine is losing and their forces will be overrun by the Russians in the spring. This is the exact opposite of what the American media is reporting. Americans are getting a steady diet of brave Ukrainians standing up to Russia’s onslaught and of atrocities against civilians. It should concern everyone when the media in the West spouts the party line and citizens don’t really know what is going on. It is also concerning that so many have bought into the propaganda.
This war could have been avoided. The Biden administration refused to negotiate with Russia to prevent it. Now we are pouring arms paid for by our taxes into a losing cause. This is ridiculous, all we are doing is filling the coffers of defense companies. The good news is as long as Russia is winning, they won’t resort nuclear weapons. Let’s hope it’s over by the fall. Biden lost my vote when he let this conflict start and he will lose everyone else’s when he is forced to back down in his proxy war.
The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. America was at war with Russia. America had always been at war with Russia.
The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. America was at war with Russia. America had always been at war with Russia.
Excellent balanced article with a particularly sensible last paragraph.
Excellent balanced article with a particularly sensible last paragraph.
We now have Zelensky almost instructing our very willing MPs to provide more weapons and money. It reminds me of Poland demanding that we invade Germany because of a promise to keep a corrupt government in power.
Zelensky’s impact is not so much his message as his demonstration of leadership. Our politicians are in thrall to him because they’ve seen nothing like it and are a millions miles removed from actually providing leadership themselves.
Zelenskyy is nothing more than a well schooled, obedient puppet.. a good actor – I’ll give you that – but that is his profession! If leading your population into death and your country into ruins is good leadership give me a bad leader any day!
Zelenskyy is nothing more than a well schooled, obedient puppet.. a good actor – I’ll give you that – but that is his profession! If leading your population into death and your country into ruins is good leadership give me a bad leader any day!
Zelensky’s impact is not so much his message as his demonstration of leadership. Our politicians are in thrall to him because they’ve seen nothing like it and are a millions miles removed from actually providing leadership themselves.
We now have Zelensky almost instructing our very willing MPs to provide more weapons and money. It reminds me of Poland demanding that we invade Germany because of a promise to keep a corrupt government in power.
Russia would have been destroyed by the German army in WW2 if it wasn’t for the help and factories of the West particularly America.Putins invasion of Ukraine is utterly unforgivable and excuses should not be made in support of Russia.This war shouild not have started and Russia can end it tomorrow by getting their murdering raping soldiers out of Ukraine
Everything you say is false.. typical of a gullible, MSM saturated, poorly educated, not too smart American sucker. Have a listen to your former White House intelligence adviser Scott Ritter or your Col. Douglas McGregor who are smart enough and brave enough to tell it like it is! You will learn a great deal unless your mind is so narrow and your brain so dead that you are beyond saving!
Everything you say is false.. typical of a gullible, MSM saturated, poorly educated, not too smart American sucker. Have a listen to your former White House intelligence adviser Scott Ritter or your Col. Douglas McGregor who are smart enough and brave enough to tell it like it is! You will learn a great deal unless your mind is so narrow and your brain so dead that you are beyond saving!
Russia would have been destroyed by the German army in WW2 if it wasn’t for the help and factories of the West particularly America.Putins invasion of Ukraine is utterly unforgivable and excuses should not be made in support of Russia.This war shouild not have started and Russia can end it tomorrow by getting their murdering raping soldiers out of Ukraine
You say:
“The truth is that, from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine …”
Rubbish.
The truth is that, to its brainwashed plebs, Russia’s governing mafia is presenting a narrative of a fight against an existential threat in Ukraine.
Putin is a bullshitter, but he’s smart enough not to believe his own bullshit.
More than can be said about you mate.
You say:
“The truth is that, from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine …”
Rubbish.
The truth is that, to its brainwashed plebs, Russia’s governing mafia is presenting a narrative of a fight against an existential threat in Ukraine.
Putin is a bullshitter, but he’s smart enough not to believe his own bullshit.
More than can be said about you mate.
Russia is the aggressor constantly threatening nuclear war. Author comes off as a glorified russian troll in that he avoids mentioning what really is at stake here: either the West stops Russia now or it will continue advancing westwards, destroying countries and democracies in its path.
Nuclear war has always been a possibility. One thing is sure, though. There will be many people around the world surviving a nuclear exchange since Russia will concentrate on nuking Europe and the US. But there will be no russians left.
Russia is the aggressor constantly threatening nuclear war. Author comes off as a glorified russian troll in that he avoids mentioning what really is at stake here: either the West stops Russia now or it will continue advancing westwards, destroying countries and democracies in its path.
Nuclear war has always been a possibility. One thing is sure, though. There will be many people around the world surviving a nuclear exchange since Russia will concentrate on nuking Europe and the US. But there will be no russians left.
‘this is the most likely way in which the war will end — with a deal in which neither side loses or wins.’ When all the cities and towns in Ukraine have been reduced by Russia to rubble, and a quarter of its land occupied, ‘neither side loses’? Are you mad?
Escalation is the word. Putin’s 100,000 strong invasion assumed a quick victory and regime change. With nowhere near enough troops to hold ground, supply his army and administer the local population, he got a bloody nose for his trouble. He’s painted himself into a corner, he’ll be replaced and I doubt his people have any appetite to continue. If NATO pile in now it will provoke the Russian bear.
Escalation is the word. Putin’s 100,000 strong invasion assumed a quick victory and regime change. With nowhere near enough troops to hold ground, supply his army and administer the local population, he got a bloody nose for his trouble. He’s painted himself into a corner, he’ll be replaced and I doubt his people have any appetite to continue. If NATO pile in now it will provoke the Russian bear.
Excuse me? Is Ukraine Russian territory? If not, how is anything the West gives to, lends to, or makes available to Ukraine IS defensive, while it is used entirely and exclusively to liberate sovereign Ukrainian territory from Russian invasion. The rest is semantics.
Excuse me? Is Ukraine Russian territory? If not, how is anything the West gives to, lends to, or makes available to Ukraine IS defensive, while it is used entirely and exclusively to liberate sovereign Ukrainian territory from Russian invasion. The rest is semantics.
Good…my Father and a number of his friends went on a cycling tour of Germany in the Olympic Year, 1936…and came home to join the Reserve Forces. If somebody had paid attention to that message, the world might now be a better and more civilized place. Nothing deals with people like Putin but the certainty of certain defeat and imminent death. The same being true of the Celestial Emperor Xi and any number of competing would-be Caliphs. Can we please get serious now? Our way of running the show is just objectively better for most people in most places most of the time. Cut the cringe, and crack the whip….
…down-vote…Putin troll about…or would the Czar or the Celestial Emperor run a better, kinder world? Answers on a post-card please..?
“Our way of running the show is …better” – maybe, if you’re white, christian, democratic, right/centrist and have no oil!
By contrast, if you’re brown, muslim, left-wing nondemocratic and/or have lots of oil you might not agree with that statement! You might think losing a million or so of your countrymen in an entirely unprovoked brutal invasion, having your country bombed into the middle ages and your oil stolen might not be all that great!
…down-vote…Putin troll about…or would the Czar or the Celestial Emperor run a better, kinder world? Answers on a post-card please..?
“Our way of running the show is …better” – maybe, if you’re white, christian, democratic, right/centrist and have no oil!
By contrast, if you’re brown, muslim, left-wing nondemocratic and/or have lots of oil you might not agree with that statement! You might think losing a million or so of your countrymen in an entirely unprovoked brutal invasion, having your country bombed into the middle ages and your oil stolen might not be all that great!
Good…my Father and a number of his friends went on a cycling tour of Germany in the Olympic Year, 1936…and came home to join the Reserve Forces. If somebody had paid attention to that message, the world might now be a better and more civilized place. Nothing deals with people like Putin but the certainty of certain defeat and imminent death. The same being true of the Celestial Emperor Xi and any number of competing would-be Caliphs. Can we please get serious now? Our way of running the show is just objectively better for most people in most places most of the time. Cut the cringe, and crack the whip….
I don’t buy it. Only the realisation that they cannot hold conquered territory will get the Russians to the negotiating table, where they just might be given some. This means the West must stare them down with MAD while providing the arms and, who knows, maybe some of the people Ukraine needs to destroy the invading force.
I don’t buy it. Only the realisation that they cannot hold conquered territory will get the Russians to the negotiating table, where they just might be given some. This means the West must stare them down with MAD while providing the arms and, who knows, maybe some of the people Ukraine needs to destroy the invading force.
Theories abound. Another, to my mind plausible – given the blowing up of the Nord Stream pipeline – is suggested by Catherine Austin Fitts interviewed by Taylor Hudak in ‘The financial coup d’état’ for The Source, namely, (from memory) that this is a war between the US and Europe aimed at combatting any influence Russia was gaining (over Europe) by depopulating the Ukraine, which is itself a breadbasket. Another way, maybe, to look at things.
Theories abound. Another, to my mind plausible – given the blowing up of the Nord Stream pipeline – is suggested by Catherine Austin Fitts interviewed by Taylor Hudak in ‘The financial coup d’état’ for The Source, namely, (from memory) that this is a war between the US and Europe aimed at combatting any influence Russia was gaining (over Europe) by depopulating the Ukraine, which is itself a breadbasket. Another way, maybe, to look at things.
I cannot believe Unherd is changing directions finally and against this EVIL war. Peace Now! NO More Weapons or money – STOP THE WAR, Peace Now.
Look – Russia does not have to use Nukes to destroy the world.
In this day of just in time shipments and production is very distant from where the consumption is – just disrupt that – the economic chaos will break every economy. Millions of Westerners starving, Power out, grids down, water flows messed up, trains and transport all snarled – and Billions globally starve. EASY.
Blow up undersea cables – the trade stops. Blow up some super tankers in the straits of Hormuz and Malakka. Hit some Gas Pipelines, maybe some air/fuel bombs over huge oilfields, hack some railroad headquarters – BILLIONS DIE. This is something which could happen –
Do you stupid sheep not realize we live in glass cities, and supply them with glass bottomed boats?
WWIII does not have to go NUK – 5th Generation Warfare. Hay – how about some Chemical/Biological Warfare? You cannot believe how far along that is. Dirty Bombs? Poisoning water supplies? I would not expect these, this is war crimes – but you never know, keep making things worse….
Come on you Neo-Con warmongers –
DO NOT CAUSE WWIII IT IS NOT SURVIVABLE IN THE MODERN Economy, Industry, agriculture, commodities, energy, transport, they would Crash..
Any of you know WWII?
Japan came to war because we cut their steel and oil supply. Britain was a few freighters from mass starvation and lack of weapons to fight Germany from U-Boats blockading the North Atlantic.We almost starved Japan to death by stopping shipping at the end. Modern supply chains are very fragile.
5th generation War is not the old wars. Stop poking a bear when you have it backed into a corner. This is not ‘war’ about Ukraine – we do not know what it really is about – but it needs to stop. Peace Now.
We could have peace tomorrow, all Putin has to do is move his troops back to Russia. Simples
“I cannot believe Unherd is changing directions finally and against this EVIL war”
I didn’t realise that Unherd had an editorial line.
If it ever does, it’s finished. Each article in isolation can’t be taken as an “editorial line” (unless you’re Elliott Bjorn) and soon enough another article will appear – whatever the topic – to counterbalance it. Certainly not all, but at least some of these articles just wouldn’t appear in MSM.
It makes me smile every time someone threatens to withdraw their Unherd subscription on the basis of editorial bias. Simply argue your own view against what’s published, and see how that’s received. Try to do so as if this is Twitter however, and you’re clearly in the wrong place, and probably won’t last long.
Op Eds are not ‘Editorial Lines’. They are Op Eds. Since when should different opinions, (unless they incite hatred), not be published? I would also add that, whilst I have enjoyed reading the comments, most journalists write and then don’t look beyond. It would be too hurtful otherwise. For me, the piece has provoked a good discussion. That’s worth its publication.
Op Eds are not ‘Editorial Lines’. They are Op Eds. Since when should different opinions, (unless they incite hatred), not be published? I would also add that, whilst I have enjoyed reading the comments, most journalists write and then don’t look beyond. It would be too hurtful otherwise. For me, the piece has provoked a good discussion. That’s worth its publication.
If it ever does, it’s finished. Each article in isolation can’t be taken as an “editorial line” (unless you’re Elliott Bjorn) and soon enough another article will appear – whatever the topic – to counterbalance it. Certainly not all, but at least some of these articles just wouldn’t appear in MSM.
It makes me smile every time someone threatens to withdraw their Unherd subscription on the basis of editorial bias. Simply argue your own view against what’s published, and see how that’s received. Try to do so as if this is Twitter however, and you’re clearly in the wrong place, and probably won’t last long.
Neocon warmongers and stupid sheep. I was actually starting to think about and weigh your views until the aggressive name calling. You lose every time you do that.
Excitable isn’t he.
He sounds English. I can only apologise.
In one of his many pseudonyms he claimed to be an Englishman who emigrated to the States. They can keep him I reckon
It IS something completely different.
It IS something completely different.
I’m Scottish, in my defence. But the English have been pretty good friends to Ukraine since 24/2.
In one of his many pseudonyms he claimed to be an Englishman who emigrated to the States. They can keep him I reckon
I’m Scottish, in my defence. But the English have been pretty good friends to Ukraine since 24/2.
“You must heed my words, you stupid sheep! Where are you idiots going?”
‘Neocon warmongers’? I don’t think anyone wanted this war. Imagine the West Coast of America was Ukraine, such as was the risk in WW2 with Japanese expansion and Pearl Harbour. Should we accept annexation by violent means (by any means, in fact?) Just saying. No attack intended and very happy to to give your argument full merit.
Excitable isn’t he.
He sounds English. I can only apologise.
“You must heed my words, you stupid sheep! Where are you idiots going?”
‘Neocon warmongers’? I don’t think anyone wanted this war. Imagine the West Coast of America was Ukraine, such as was the risk in WW2 with Japanese expansion and Pearl Harbour. Should we accept annexation by violent means (by any means, in fact?) Just saying. No attack intended and very happy to to give your argument full merit.
What happens when Putin decides to de-nazify the Baltics, the Caucasus, the Stans & anywhere else he fancies? I suppose he gets them too?
Are you one of those that thinks there were no n*zis?
That’s a bit of a stretch. There were articles about Ukrainian Nazis over the last few years, but tellingly they were in the sort of publications that don’t generally need much evidence before joining a lynch mob.
Are you one of those people who believes the existence of a neo-Nazi element in a country justifies invasion?
No I am not. The reasons for the invasion are many and complex. Mostly russias fault yes probably. The west, yes probably a bit our fault too. The n*zis reason was spun into the Russian propaganda yes to justify the invasion, I am not saying it was good justification, or justification at all, just that there are actually n*zis there. Not all the Ukrainians by a long way. But there is a pretty large network. That was my point. See my source dump on this article, if you want info not from a crap publication.
https://unherd.com/thepost/how-germanys-tanks-could-make-peace-more-likely/
I don’t need to open the link B Emery as there is credibility in what you say.
Thank you, I think it’s good to stick with the facts if we can. I’m always happy to be corrected.
Thank you, I think it’s good to stick with the facts if we can. I’m always happy to be corrected.
I don’t need to open the link B Emery as there is credibility in what you say.
Azov Batallion could be compared to ‘Neo Nazis’. But that was in the past and some changed. Plus it doesn’t justify Putin’s invasion.
No I am not. The reasons for the invasion are many and complex. Mostly russias fault yes probably. The west, yes probably a bit our fault too. The n*zis reason was spun into the Russian propaganda yes to justify the invasion, I am not saying it was good justification, or justification at all, just that there are actually n*zis there. Not all the Ukrainians by a long way. But there is a pretty large network. That was my point. See my source dump on this article, if you want info not from a crap publication.
https://unherd.com/thepost/how-germanys-tanks-could-make-peace-more-likely/
Azov Batallion could be compared to ‘Neo Nazis’. But that was in the past and some changed. Plus it doesn’t justify Putin’s invasion.
Russia has a much bigger and stronger far right faction than Ukraine ever did. The far right in Ukraine never received more than a few percentage points in the elections, while in Russia they have seats in government. Therefore would the west be justified invading Russia to de-Nazify it?
I did not say that there wasn’t far right in Russia, I did not say that it was justification, I simply stated a fact. Would you like me to provide a source on the extreme factions in Russia for balance next time? Or some sort of disclaimer, I will do that, keep it fair. I had assumed we were all grown ups well aware russia is pretty corrupt with its own brand of crazy nutter groups.
I did not say that there wasn’t far right in Russia, I did not say that it was justification, I simply stated a fact. Would you like me to provide a source on the extreme factions in Russia for balance next time? Or some sort of disclaimer, I will do that, keep it fair. I had assumed we were all grown ups well aware russia is pretty corrupt with its own brand of crazy nutter groups.
That’s a bit of a stretch. There were articles about Ukrainian Nazis over the last few years, but tellingly they were in the sort of publications that don’t generally need much evidence before joining a lynch mob.
Are you one of those people who believes the existence of a neo-Nazi element in a country justifies invasion?
Russia has a much bigger and stronger far right faction than Ukraine ever did. The far right in Ukraine never received more than a few percentage points in the elections, while in Russia they have seats in government. Therefore would the west be justified invading Russia to de-Nazify it?
Are you one of those that thinks there were no n*zis?
People down voting you should perhaps listen. If America and China go for Taiwan too:
In a nod to current tensions between China and Taiwan, Mr Wray also said during his speech that any forcible takeover of Taipei by Beijing “would represent one of the most horrific business disruptions the world has ever seen”.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/101215972
This war is already wrecking supply chains, wrecking industry. Mr Bjorn is correct, if russia start cutting under sea cables or blowing up lng tankers we are in serious trouble. Modern supply chains are already a mess from covid. I would strongly advise heeding Mr Bjorns warning.
Peace deal, like musk suggested. We must stop escalating this.
https://news.antiwar.com/2022/02/21/uncovered-document-reveals-soviet-union-was-promised-no-nato-expansion-at-end-of-cold-war/
“The Russian invasion of Ukraine is inflicting untold suffering on the Ukrainian people, with profound global implications. The prospects for peace keep diminishing,” Guterres told the UN General Assembly.
“I fear the world is not sleepwalking into a wider war. I fear it is doing so with its eyes wide open,” he added
https://news.antiwar.com/2023/02/06/un-chief-fears-russia-ukraine-conflict-could-turn-into-wider-war/
We’ve listened, weighed all the pros and cons since the Russians invaded, and disagree. That’s what Comments are for, but at least some of the downvotes will be about Elliot’s use of (or should i say mangling of) language, which is a complete turn off and counterproductive.
OK, you disagree, that’s fine. I’m not stopping you. Just drawing attention to points I thought were good. What’s wrong with mangled language? Who gets to judge its counter productive? I thought it was pretty tame…..
Also do you disagree we should consider peace? Disagree it has been discussed in some parts of us government that there will, at some point perhaps have to be a negotiation? Do you disagree escalation could further disrupt supply chains?
Read the post by Mustard Clementine above. The comment has saved me the trouble of answering since it mirrors my opinion pretty much exactly.
My other point, about the use of language, is possibly more important than you give it credit for. I’d call it an abuse of language, which hinders understanding, and is completely unnecessary. It’s sub-Twitter, which this forum really can do without as a place for civilised debate, which can be vehement without being execrable.
OK, first up, I don’t know what execrable mjeans. I will Google it. Second up, your writing style depends on where you come from and how well educated you are. How much credo you give to ‘use of language’ entirely depends on those things. I haven’t a clue what constitutes ‘an abuse of language’, is there a guidebook? My writing is frequently shit. I take it in my stride because I’m trying do better, I like to try out different ways of writing stuff, ‘execrable’ or not. My crap writing might hinder people understanding what I’m trying to say, so should I go to twitter? What is the line for ‘civilised debate’? Do you say it has become uncivilised when it gets to pistols at dawn or what? Do I need to show a degree at the gate? Bad luck for me then.
Edit: written on emery paper Mr Murray 🙂
Ms Emery, we had all this in 1914 with the wicked Kaiser, then again in 1939 with mad Adolph, and thus sacrificed ourselves on the Altar of Virtue.
This time we should be much more circumspect and avoid any unnecessary escalation, if we are NOT to repeat the blunders of the not too distant past.
Thank you, that’s also my personal feeling, I think the west has become very comfortable and complacent. I think Mr Bjorn perhaps appreciates the situation there better than most. I’ll keep posting for the try not to escalate the war side.
Can I ask, do you think we are perhaps too far down the road now already? We seem to be positively steaming forward at the moment.
No I think we are safe for now, and it’s more a case of “ smoke and mirrors “,
However we must be careful not to start believing our own hubris and then doing something particularly stupid.
Thank you, I have read the us might not want it to carry on much past summer ‘so they can concentrate on china’ I think the line was. And so may push for negotiation then, I suppose time will tell. They are getting very excited about the Chinese spy balloon at the moment.
Thank you, I have read the us might not want it to carry on much past summer ‘so they can concentrate on china’ I think the line was. And so may push for negotiation then, I suppose time will tell. They are getting very excited about the Chinese spy balloon at the moment.
No I think we are safe for now, and it’s more a case of “ smoke and mirrors “,
However we must be careful not to start believing our own hubris and then doing something particularly stupid.
Do you honestly believe young Adolph would have left us alone if we hadn’t intervened after his invasion of Poland? Once he’d conquered mainland Europe and rebuilt his arsenal why wouldn’t he have simply carried on into London?
Do you really believe he would/could have conquered the Soviet Union?
Also he appears to have been a bit on an Anglophile, so perhaps we might have come to some arrangement?
Personally I wouldn’t trust Hitler, albeit post-humously. He’s not a man I see as respecting Treaties/Agreements.
Personally I wouldn’t trust Hitler, albeit post-humously. He’s not a man I see as respecting Treaties/Agreements.
Do you really believe he would/could have conquered the Soviet Union?
Also he appears to have been a bit on an Anglophile, so perhaps we might have come to some arrangement?
Thank you, that’s also my personal feeling, I think the west has become very comfortable and complacent. I think Mr Bjorn perhaps appreciates the situation there better than most. I’ll keep posting for the try not to escalate the war side.
Can I ask, do you think we are perhaps too far down the road now already? We seem to be positively steaming forward at the moment.
Do you honestly believe young Adolph would have left us alone if we hadn’t intervened after his invasion of Poland? Once he’d conquered mainland Europe and rebuilt his arsenal why wouldn’t he have simply carried on into London?
Ms Emery, we had all this in 1914 with the wicked Kaiser, then again in 1939 with mad Adolph, and thus sacrificed ourselves on the Altar of Virtue.
This time we should be much more circumspect and avoid any unnecessary escalation, if we are NOT to repeat the blunders of the not too distant past.
OK, first up, I don’t know what execrable mjeans. I will Google it. Second up, your writing style depends on where you come from and how well educated you are. How much credo you give to ‘use of language’ entirely depends on those things. I haven’t a clue what constitutes ‘an abuse of language’, is there a guidebook? My writing is frequently shit. I take it in my stride because I’m trying do better, I like to try out different ways of writing stuff, ‘execrable’ or not. My crap writing might hinder people understanding what I’m trying to say, so should I go to twitter? What is the line for ‘civilised debate’? Do you say it has become uncivilised when it gets to pistols at dawn or what? Do I need to show a degree at the gate? Bad luck for me then.
Edit: written on emery paper Mr Murray 🙂
Peace should always be considered. The problem lies in the fact that those calling for peace generally do so by demanding that Ukraine stops defending itself and allows Russia to dictate its foreign policy. I never hear what concessions Russia should give in order to stop the conflict
Here comes the virtuous to nuke us to bed.
I am waving the let’s negotiate and take the whole thing into account flag. I am demanding both sides calm down and negotiate. No one is saying russia should dictate ukraines foreign policy. Some of us were just hoping for some middle ground maybe.
So what is that middle ground in your eyes? Russia gets Crimea and the areas it controlled before the invasion, and Ukraine gets to join NATO and later the EU if they wish? I think most Ukrainians would take that personally
Some of the people in the east of Ukraine and crimea have strong ties with russia, I think that’s very fair to say, have you considered that actually some of those regions have been shelled on and off since 2014? For nearly ten years! Have you considered those people may want peace?
Just because you think something it doesn’t make it a fact.
As I said above, the US have talked about negotiations, musk had a sensible proposal.
I suppose you are saying we should fight them out of every inch regardless of the cost then?
You still haven’t answered my question though have you? What are Russia going to offer Ukraine in order to finish the conflict? If Ukraine offers territory, would Russia allow them to join NATO and pivot towards the west? If not, how can Ukraine guarantee that Russia won’t simply carve a bit more off in the future once it’s replenished its armed forces? A treaty won’t cut it, as Russia has already proven it won’t abide by anything it has signed
Exactly. I see no immediate solution, albeit that the recent Davos meeting tried to discuss peace plans.
OK I understand. Please just get that there aren’t a lot of people calling for the escalation to stop at the moment. If you see my post above, even the un secretary General is concerned about escalation. All I’m trying to do, is make some arguments for that case. Sometimes badly, granted. I imagined we had diplomats to hash all that stuff out, was kind of what I had in mind. I feel like it’s too late to attempt writing an actual peace proposal myself. Another time. The us has talked about negotiations and such. The point is too, how long can we actually fund this? How much kit have we actually got to throw at it? How many lives? You know you can be as idealogical about it as you want but we have real world limits to contend with.
Your arguments are excellent!
Your arguments are excellent!
Exactly. I see no immediate solution, albeit that the recent Davos meeting tried to discuss peace plans.
OK I understand. Please just get that there aren’t a lot of people calling for the escalation to stop at the moment. If you see my post above, even the un secretary General is concerned about escalation. All I’m trying to do, is make some arguments for that case. Sometimes badly, granted. I imagined we had diplomats to hash all that stuff out, was kind of what I had in mind. I feel like it’s too late to attempt writing an actual peace proposal myself. Another time. The us has talked about negotiations and such. The point is too, how long can we actually fund this? How much kit have we actually got to throw at it? How many lives? You know you can be as idealogical about it as you want but we have real world limits to contend with.
I think there are not many pro-Russians left in Eastern Ukraine.. (They all left to escape the aerial bombardment, conscription and the war in general). Ask any author/journalist (and I’m not just talking Western journalists) who have been there.
You still haven’t answered my question though have you? What are Russia going to offer Ukraine in order to finish the conflict? If Ukraine offers territory, would Russia allow them to join NATO and pivot towards the west? If not, how can Ukraine guarantee that Russia won’t simply carve a bit more off in the future once it’s replenished its armed forces? A treaty won’t cut it, as Russia has already proven it won’t abide by anything it has signed
I think there are not many pro-Russians left in Eastern Ukraine.. (They all left to escape the aerial bombardment, conscription and the war in general). Ask any author/journalist (and I’m not just talking Western journalists) who have been there.
An excellent suggestion BB.
Thus just like an 18th century war, everyone can claim victory and go home with some ‘prizes’.
Isn’t that what they wanted, to join the EU and nato? And then have a referendum in the Eastern regions russia has crimea, I think that was the idea of musks proposal. I know its not perfect but it’s not an easy situation.
Sun Tzu Charlie. ‘Golden Bridge’.
Isn’t that what they wanted, to join the EU and nato? And then have a referendum in the Eastern regions russia has crimea, I think that was the idea of musks proposal. I know its not perfect but it’s not an easy situation.
Sun Tzu Charlie. ‘Golden Bridge’.
For the Russophiles “middle ground” is, obviously, to give the whole of Ukraine to Russia and turn the Baltics, Finland, Georgia and Armenia into puppet states à la Belarus
“peace”
Oh jesus. Yes that is exactly what I meant. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Is that anything like what musk actually proposed? I think not.
I think the Armenia Azerbaijan conflict is also a kind of proxy war between Russia and the US, Iran involved too if I remember correctly?
That’s another conversation …
Yes it seems pretty complex business, a lot going on all over the place, many other conflicts at the moment.
Yes it seems pretty complex business, a lot going on all over the place, many other conflicts at the moment.
That’s another conversation …
Oh jesus. Yes that is exactly what I meant. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Is that anything like what musk actually proposed? I think not.
I think the Armenia Azerbaijan conflict is also a kind of proxy war between Russia and the US, Iran involved too if I remember correctly?
Some of the people in the east of Ukraine and crimea have strong ties with russia, I think that’s very fair to say, have you considered that actually some of those regions have been shelled on and off since 2014? For nearly ten years! Have you considered those people may want peace?
Just because you think something it doesn’t make it a fact.
As I said above, the US have talked about negotiations, musk had a sensible proposal.
I suppose you are saying we should fight them out of every inch regardless of the cost then?
An excellent suggestion BB.
Thus just like an 18th century war, everyone can claim victory and go home with some ‘prizes’.
For the Russophiles “middle ground” is, obviously, to give the whole of Ukraine to Russia and turn the Baltics, Finland, Georgia and Armenia into puppet states à la Belarus
“peace”
So what is that middle ground in your eyes? Russia gets Crimea and the areas it controlled before the invasion, and Ukraine gets to join NATO and later the EU if they wish? I think most Ukrainians would take that personally
Status quo ante. (2022).
It’s a tough call. What can Putin offer that means he exits with a ‘Golden Bridge’ (as Sun Tzu would posit)? He has to portray a win, somehow. With talk of Ukraine wanting to get Crimea back, and the recent agreement of the US to provide longer range missiles that mean Ukraine can target Crimea without moving their troops south of the Dnipro, what do you propose should be put on the table? This is a matter of pride, on both sides.
Here comes the virtuous to nuke us to bed.
I am waving the let’s negotiate and take the whole thing into account flag. I am demanding both sides calm down and negotiate. No one is saying russia should dictate ukraines foreign policy. Some of us were just hoping for some middle ground maybe.
Status quo ante. (2022).
It’s a tough call. What can Putin offer that means he exits with a ‘Golden Bridge’ (as Sun Tzu would posit)? He has to portray a win, somehow. With talk of Ukraine wanting to get Crimea back, and the recent agreement of the US to provide longer range missiles that mean Ukraine can target Crimea without moving their troops south of the Dnipro, what do you propose should be put on the table? This is a matter of pride, on both sides.
Read the post by Mustard Clementine above. The comment has saved me the trouble of answering since it mirrors my opinion pretty much exactly.
My other point, about the use of language, is possibly more important than you give it credit for. I’d call it an abuse of language, which hinders understanding, and is completely unnecessary. It’s sub-Twitter, which this forum really can do without as a place for civilised debate, which can be vehement without being execrable.
Peace should always be considered. The problem lies in the fact that those calling for peace generally do so by demanding that Ukraine stops defending itself and allows Russia to dictate its foreign policy. I never hear what concessions Russia should give in order to stop the conflict
OK, you disagree, that’s fine. I’m not stopping you. Just drawing attention to points I thought were good. What’s wrong with mangled language? Who gets to judge its counter productive? I thought it was pretty tame…..
Also do you disagree we should consider peace? Disagree it has been discussed in some parts of us government that there will, at some point perhaps have to be a negotiation? Do you disagree escalation could further disrupt supply chains?
We’ve listened, weighed all the pros and cons since the Russians invaded, and disagree. That’s what Comments are for, but at least some of the downvotes will be about Elliot’s use of (or should i say mangling of) language, which is a complete turn off and counterproductive.
We could have peace tomorrow, all Putin has to do is move his troops back to Russia. Simples
“I cannot believe Unherd is changing directions finally and against this EVIL war”
I didn’t realise that Unherd had an editorial line.
Neocon warmongers and stupid sheep. I was actually starting to think about and weigh your views until the aggressive name calling. You lose every time you do that.
What happens when Putin decides to de-nazify the Baltics, the Caucasus, the Stans & anywhere else he fancies? I suppose he gets them too?
People down voting you should perhaps listen. If America and China go for Taiwan too:
In a nod to current tensions between China and Taiwan, Mr Wray also said during his speech that any forcible takeover of Taipei by Beijing “would represent one of the most horrific business disruptions the world has ever seen”.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/101215972
This war is already wrecking supply chains, wrecking industry. Mr Bjorn is correct, if russia start cutting under sea cables or blowing up lng tankers we are in serious trouble. Modern supply chains are already a mess from covid. I would strongly advise heeding Mr Bjorns warning.
Peace deal, like musk suggested. We must stop escalating this.
https://news.antiwar.com/2022/02/21/uncovered-document-reveals-soviet-union-was-promised-no-nato-expansion-at-end-of-cold-war/
“The Russian invasion of Ukraine is inflicting untold suffering on the Ukrainian people, with profound global implications. The prospects for peace keep diminishing,” Guterres told the UN General Assembly.
“I fear the world is not sleepwalking into a wider war. I fear it is doing so with its eyes wide open,” he added
https://news.antiwar.com/2023/02/06/un-chief-fears-russia-ukraine-conflict-could-turn-into-wider-war/
I cannot believe Unherd is changing directions finally and against this EVIL war. Peace Now! NO More Weapons or money – STOP THE WAR, Peace Now.
Look – Russia does not have to use Nukes to destroy the world.
In this day of just in time shipments and production is very distant from where the consumption is – just disrupt that – the economic chaos will break every economy. Millions of Westerners starving, Power out, grids down, water flows messed up, trains and transport all snarled – and Billions globally starve. EASY.
Blow up undersea cables – the trade stops. Blow up some super tankers in the straits of Hormuz and Malakka. Hit some Gas Pipelines, maybe some air/fuel bombs over huge oilfields, hack some railroad headquarters – BILLIONS DIE. This is something which could happen –
Do you stupid sheep not realize we live in glass cities, and supply them with glass bottomed boats?
WWIII does not have to go NUK – 5th Generation Warfare. Hay – how about some Chemical/Biological Warfare? You cannot believe how far along that is. Dirty Bombs? Poisoning water supplies? I would not expect these, this is war crimes – but you never know, keep making things worse….
Come on you Neo-Con warmongers –
DO NOT CAUSE WWIII IT IS NOT SURVIVABLE IN THE MODERN Economy, Industry, agriculture, commodities, energy, transport, they would Crash..
Any of you know WWII?
Japan came to war because we cut their steel and oil supply. Britain was a few freighters from mass starvation and lack of weapons to fight Germany from U-Boats blockading the North Atlantic.We almost starved Japan to death by stopping shipping at the end. Modern supply chains are very fragile.
5th generation War is not the old wars. Stop poking a bear when you have it backed into a corner. This is not ‘war’ about Ukraine – we do not know what it really is about – but it needs to stop. Peace Now.