I am curious to know why an objection to large scale immigration is automatically classified as populist and right-wing. Perhaps people simply object to having their societies disrupted for no good reason.
I am equally confused. Meanwhile, citizens of other countries are praised and sympathised with in the fight against imperialism and the erosion of their cultures.
56% of people polled last weekend agreed with the sentiment that ireland has taken too many ‘refugees’ over the past 12 months. A further 14% said they ‘don’t know’.
That would suggest that between 56 and 70 percent of Irish are now ‘far right’ if the standards of the establishment media, political and ngo class are to be applied.
Is that realistic on any level? Obviously not. More like between 56 and 70 percent of Irish people have no political representation on this issue (and a myriad of others).
Success in the polls (perhaps even an overall majority in the case of Sinn Fein) awaits any establishment party that steps up and provides leadership in the form of a basic common sense approach to the issue ie no more until such time as sufficient housing and basic services are available to cater to those already here.
If none step up, someone else will step into that space instead.
56% of people polled last weekend agreed with the sentiment that ireland has taken too many ‘refugees’ over the past 12 months. A further 14% said they ‘don’t know’.
That would suggest that between 56 and 70 percent of Irish are now ‘far right’ if the standards of the establishment media, political and ngo class are to be applied.
Is that realistic on any level? Obviously not. More like between 56 and 70 percent of Irish people have no political representation on this issue (and a myriad of others).
Success in the polls (perhaps even an overall majority in the case of Sinn Fein) awaits any establishment party that steps up and provides leadership in the form of a basic common sense approach to the issue ie no more until such time as sufficient housing and basic services are available to cater to those already here.
If none step up, someone else will step into that space instead.
No one is eroding Irish culture.. that is not the issue. The real issue is housing.. there is a serious (govt contrived) housing shortage but these idiots are blaming migrants instead. To be fair, many (most?) actually do blame the govt as well. Of course the fault lies squarely with the govt and the poor migrants merely exacerbate the problem, aided and abetted by the usual Farage types. Yep, we have them in Ireland as well.
Look around you at other countries – step one people say it isn’t eroding culture and heritage, step two is inclusivity means not mentioning any idea of national birthright or cultural dominance – Irish culture will then be selectively treated as equivalent to minority culture, which leads to selective plasticity of values. The purpose of this is to remove the threat of the masses to the takeover by capital, where the people will find their position changed from nationals used to the govt pursuing their interests into powerless customers in a state that pursues the property ownership rights of wealth as paramount. Just look at the UK as an example. It has nothing to do with the disgusting and misleading term “anti-immigrant”, coined by Tony Blair, it has to do with the rapid dispossession of the people from their birthright and their nation being replaced by a state. It’s an obvious game.
Look around you at other countries – step one people say it isn’t eroding culture and heritage, step two is inclusivity means not mentioning any idea of national birthright or cultural dominance – Irish culture will then be selectively treated as equivalent to minority culture, which leads to selective plasticity of values. The purpose of this is to remove the threat of the masses to the takeover by capital, where the people will find their position changed from nationals used to the govt pursuing their interests into powerless customers in a state that pursues the property ownership rights of wealth as paramount. Just look at the UK as an example. It has nothing to do with the disgusting and misleading term “anti-immigrant”, coined by Tony Blair, it has to do with the rapid dispossession of the people from their birthright and their nation being replaced by a state. It’s an obvious game.
No one is eroding Irish culture.. that is not the issue. The real issue is housing.. there is a serious (govt contrived) housing shortage but these idiots are blaming migrants instead. To be fair, many (most?) actually do blame the govt as well. Of course the fault lies squarely with the govt and the poor migrants merely exacerbate the problem, aided and abetted by the usual Farage types. Yep, we have them in Ireland as well.
Of course the two should not be equated, but Hitler/Nazism was populism writ large. He was hugely popular; antagonistic to the establishment and elites (law, politics, science, military); rose on the promise a brave new world, restored to it’s greatness and cleansed of foolishness & corruption, whilst being a major proponent of fashionable half baked theories (eugenics). And despite all the success, destined to fail.
Big difference. Usually populist appeals not to the population as a whole but mainly to the great unwashed who, having little to lose and a great deal of anger and resentment to vent will make their voices heard well beyond their numbers; while the bulk of the population will, sadly, remain quiet.
Of course the two should not be equated, but Hitler/Nazism was populism writ large. He was hugely popular; antagonistic to the establishment and elites (law, politics, science, military); rose on the promise a brave new world, restored to it’s greatness and cleansed of foolishness & corruption, whilst being a major proponent of fashionable half baked theories (eugenics). And despite all the success, destined to fail.
Big difference. Usually populist appeals not to the population as a whole but mainly to the great unwashed who, having little to lose and a great deal of anger and resentment to vent will make their voices heard well beyond their numbers; while the bulk of the population will, sadly, remain quiet.
Because it just is. As JK Rowling is Transphobic and there are calls to cancel her. Good discussion this. I recommend “The British Dream” by David Goodhart on this subject.
Well, in the case of the anti-immigration protests currently happening in Ireland, that’s pretty straightforward – the parties concerned describe themselves as right wing, and, for those of you still clinging to the delusion that these are salt of the earth types, some of them carry swastikas: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-41063300.html
Ringleaders on the ground include e.g. Philip Dwyer, a former candidate for the far-right (and currently electorally minuscule) National Party. Think an Irish version of a cross between the BNP and UKIP. Unfortunately, they see that Putin’s displacement of Ukrainian refugees gives them a chance to gain a foothold.
Frank . In my view the article you linked has all the tropes of the authoritarian globalist progressive . It also carries some of the twisted hypocrisy of contemporary woke journalists. While they believe that women of the correct class Should be affirmed in cases of sexual assault its different for working class women and girls. They are not to be believed. That is clear in the ongoing rape and sexual trafficking of working class vulnerable women in the UK. SF like all authoritarian progressives will reap the whirlwind. As one who considers themselves rooted in the left i am fed up seeing working class people crushed by the wheels of middle class empathy and virtue signalling.
Frank . In my view the article you linked has all the tropes of the authoritarian globalist progressive . It also carries some of the twisted hypocrisy of contemporary woke journalists. While they believe that women of the correct class Should be affirmed in cases of sexual assault its different for working class women and girls. They are not to be believed. That is clear in the ongoing rape and sexual trafficking of working class vulnerable women in the UK. SF like all authoritarian progressives will reap the whirlwind. As one who considers themselves rooted in the left i am fed up seeing working class people crushed by the wheels of middle class empathy and virtue signalling.
Hi, I’ve seen this come up a few times to my article and let me address that. I’m using a neutral / clinical definition of “right-wing populism”, not the hyperbolic pejorative of “far right”. This means I’m objectively describing attitudes into a conventional rubric, not calling anyone mean names.
For instance, if we review Pew Research Center’s Appendix: Classifying European political parties, what we see is an attempt to categorize different attitudes into a definition of “right-wing populism”. These attitudes include: “1) support for traditional social values, 2) opposition to liberal lifestyles, 3) promotion of nationalism, 4) favorable toward tough law and order, 5) favorable toward assimilation for immigrants and asylum seekers, 6) support for restrictive immigration policies, 7) opposition to more rights for ethnic minorities, 8) support for religious principles in politics and 9) support for rural interests.”
It is not unreasonable to match the anti-migrant protests’ (or IFP’s) attitudes with those of this classification, in a neutral fashion. The protests have noted that they oppose higher amounts of immigration, they want more law and order on crime and immigration checks, they are Irish nationalists, and very pro-family. While not a 100% match, it’s fair to call this movement “right-wing populist” especially in relativity to Irish politics in general.
Well done for taking commenters seriously and explaining at an academic political science level why you went with the term Right Wing Populist, that’s helpful to understand. I think that within the realm of polemics…it is a far more vexatious phrase, especially as many in the Irish anti-migrant protests look and indeed even in that Pew definition, are a lot closer to a UK Blue Labour standpoint. Whilst you are technically/clinically correct, that definition, is nevertheless somewhat of a distortion. I think it’s fair to say that political science has never really got it’s head around the deviancy which is working class conservatism. Thanks for the highly informative article!
Thanks. Yes I realize the nuances to these word choices. I still think it is apt and it gets at even more so that symbolic feeling occurring that resembles other countries’ pivots to what we call “right-wing populism”.
I even agree “right-wing populism” doesn’t even convey the economic leftist overlap that occur but perhaps are summed up by “populism”. The labour overlap is real. In general, I think right-wing populism is summed up by: socially right and economically left. And left as more so anti-free for all capitalism rather than a marxist thing. Better to call that other left as “protectionist”.
Thanks. Yes I realize the nuances to these word choices. I still think it is apt and it gets at even more so that symbolic feeling occurring that resembles other countries’ pivots to what we call “right-wing populism”.
I even agree “right-wing populism” doesn’t even convey the economic leftist overlap that occur but perhaps are summed up by “populism”. The labour overlap is real. In general, I think right-wing populism is summed up by: socially right and economically left. And left as more so anti-free for all capitalism rather than a marxist thing. Better to call that other left as “protectionist”.
As a grand old Bennite let me tell you that this game is over. You are indeed using the term “right-wing” pejoratively. You might fool yourself, but you don’t fool me .
Right wing is a meaningless anachronistic term that has a dog whistle left-labelled opposition who blindly regard themselves as morally superior – this rather evil supremacism is at least dismissive and at worst dangerous, as well as strongly undemocratic
Right wing is a meaningless anachronistic term that has a dog whistle left-labelled opposition who blindly regard themselves as morally superior – this rather evil supremacism is at least dismissive and at worst dangerous, as well as strongly undemocratic
It may be worth noting also that what you have described above (leaving aside the migration aspect) is more or less the tenets and values of traditional Irish republicanism prior to its recent woke makeover. It’s no coincidence that many of the protesters are carrying posters that say ‘Concerned parents’ which is a code directed at squarely at Sinn Fein. Look up the origin of that phrase from inner city Dublin in the 1980s if it means nothing to you. It will also explain why these protests may be perceived as ‘existential’ for Sinn Fein in terms of where they decide to go from here.
It is inevitable that a political party of protest (Sinn Féin) will pick up a cohort of extreme protesters (anti everything, except perhaps dole) along the way. It is curious that, given the strong correlation between leftwing and protest these xenophobic racists tend to support the ‘wrong side’: that is until something like migration separates them out and they tesort to type: ie racist xenophobia. They do indeed belong rightly to the IFP (in reality more an Irish Fascist Party!) as there is no place for them in the well-heeled albeit right-wing party which is FG.. and certainly no room for them in internationalist Sinn Féin. I cannot see the IFP growing to the proportions of Nigel Farrage’s UKIP or whatever he calls his nasty outfit these days.
Except 56 percent of people polled last weekend were of the view that Ireland had accepted too many people over the past 12 months. Another 14 per cent said ‘don’t know’. 30 per cent were on board with the current approach. I’m pretty sure that between 56 and 70 per cent of people are not ‘fascist’. They are however without political representation on this issue (and possibly others), suggesting that unless the mainstream (Sinn Fein or Fianna Fáil being the most likely) steps up and represents them, someone else most likely will.
Except 56 percent of people polled last weekend were of the view that Ireland had accepted too many people over the past 12 months. Another 14 per cent said ‘don’t know’. 30 per cent were on board with the current approach. I’m pretty sure that between 56 and 70 per cent of people are not ‘fascist’. They are however without political representation on this issue (and possibly others), suggesting that unless the mainstream (Sinn Fein or Fianna Fáil being the most likely) steps up and represents them, someone else most likely will.
It is inevitable that a political party of protest (Sinn Féin) will pick up a cohort of extreme protesters (anti everything, except perhaps dole) along the way. It is curious that, given the strong correlation between leftwing and protest these xenophobic racists tend to support the ‘wrong side’: that is until something like migration separates them out and they tesort to type: ie racist xenophobia. They do indeed belong rightly to the IFP (in reality more an Irish Fascist Party!) as there is no place for them in the well-heeled albeit right-wing party which is FG.. and certainly no room for them in internationalist Sinn Féin. I cannot see the IFP growing to the proportions of Nigel Farrage’s UKIP or whatever he calls his nasty outfit these days.
Well done for taking commenters seriously and explaining at an academic political science level why you went with the term Right Wing Populist, that’s helpful to understand. I think that within the realm of polemics…it is a far more vexatious phrase, especially as many in the Irish anti-migrant protests look and indeed even in that Pew definition, are a lot closer to a UK Blue Labour standpoint. Whilst you are technically/clinically correct, that definition, is nevertheless somewhat of a distortion. I think it’s fair to say that political science has never really got it’s head around the deviancy which is working class conservatism. Thanks for the highly informative article!
As a grand old Bennite let me tell you that this game is over. You are indeed using the term “right-wing” pejoratively. You might fool yourself, but you don’t fool me .
It may be worth noting also that what you have described above (leaving aside the migration aspect) is more or less the tenets and values of traditional Irish republicanism prior to its recent woke makeover. It’s no coincidence that many of the protesters are carrying posters that say ‘Concerned parents’ which is a code directed at squarely at Sinn Fein. Look up the origin of that phrase from inner city Dublin in the 1980s if it means nothing to you. It will also explain why these protests may be perceived as ‘existential’ for Sinn Fein in terms of where they decide to go from here.
In NZ strangely enough it was the opposite. The Ardern Labour government (which was never as far left as it was portrayed admittedly) was very anti immigration whereas the more right leaning opposition wants to open the floodgates of cheap labour for businesses. The median salary has risen by around a quarter in the five years Ardern was at the helm, so perhaps all those who say excess immigration suppresses wages were right after all
Yet when British voters raised the exact same concerns regarding immigration putting pressure on wages, housing and public services during the whole Brexit process, you amongst many others labelled them as right wing bigots. Why is it caring when Ardern does it, but not working class Britons?
Yet when British voters raised the exact same concerns regarding immigration putting pressure on wages, housing and public services during the whole Brexit process, you amongst many others labelled them as right wing bigots. Why is it caring when Ardern does it, but not working class Britons?
That’s why terms like left and right don’t mean much in the modern context. I don’t care if Labour have cut ties with their historical roots. I just want a party to fight back against the very worst abuses and excesses committed by those in the pursuit of profit. It may well be that the current incarnation is imperfect, but the voting choice is binary.
That’s why terms like left and right don’t mean much in the modern context. I don’t care if Labour have cut ties with their historical roots. I just want a party to fight back against the very worst abuses and excesses committed by those in the pursuit of profit. It may well be that the current incarnation is imperfect, but the voting choice is binary.
One reason is simply that it IS right-wing! The great unwashed and the poorly educated.. these types rant and rave at everything. Normally they support SF (who do the same) but on this one occasion, SF doesn’t fit the bill because it takes the usual leftwing view which is supportive of asylum seekers and refugees.
No it isn’t. And exclamation marks do not make it so. Those who support importing economic migrants, whatever they call them, are simply looking for cheap workers. So let’s not play the game of my morals are better than youra
No it isn’t. And exclamation marks do not make it so. Those who support importing economic migrants, whatever they call them, are simply looking for cheap workers. So let’s not play the game of my morals are better than youra
Free Tibet! always comes to mind. It’s class war, nothing else. Are the Tibetans wicked for wanting to preserve their nation-based culture and heritage?
I am equally confused. Meanwhile, citizens of other countries are praised and sympathised with in the fight against imperialism and the erosion of their cultures.
Because it just is. As JK Rowling is Transphobic and there are calls to cancel her. Good discussion this. I recommend “The British Dream” by David Goodhart on this subject.
Well, in the case of the anti-immigration protests currently happening in Ireland, that’s pretty straightforward – the parties concerned describe themselves as right wing, and, for those of you still clinging to the delusion that these are salt of the earth types, some of them carry swastikas: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-41063300.html
Ringleaders on the ground include e.g. Philip Dwyer, a former candidate for the far-right (and currently electorally minuscule) National Party. Think an Irish version of a cross between the BNP and UKIP. Unfortunately, they see that Putin’s displacement of Ukrainian refugees gives them a chance to gain a foothold.
Hi, I’ve seen this come up a few times to my article and let me address that. I’m using a neutral / clinical definition of “right-wing populism”, not the hyperbolic pejorative of “far right”. This means I’m objectively describing attitudes into a conventional rubric, not calling anyone mean names.
For instance, if we review Pew Research Center’s Appendix: Classifying European political parties, what we see is an attempt to categorize different attitudes into a definition of “right-wing populism”. These attitudes include: “1) support for traditional social values, 2) opposition to liberal lifestyles, 3) promotion of nationalism, 4) favorable toward tough law and order, 5) favorable toward assimilation for immigrants and asylum seekers, 6) support for restrictive immigration policies, 7) opposition to more rights for ethnic minorities, 8) support for religious principles in politics and 9) support for rural interests.”
It is not unreasonable to match the anti-migrant protests’ (or IFP’s) attitudes with those of this classification, in a neutral fashion. The protests have noted that they oppose higher amounts of immigration, they want more law and order on crime and immigration checks, they are Irish nationalists, and very pro-family. While not a 100% match, it’s fair to call this movement “right-wing populist” especially in relativity to Irish politics in general.
In NZ strangely enough it was the opposite. The Ardern Labour government (which was never as far left as it was portrayed admittedly) was very anti immigration whereas the more right leaning opposition wants to open the floodgates of cheap labour for businesses. The median salary has risen by around a quarter in the five years Ardern was at the helm, so perhaps all those who say excess immigration suppresses wages were right after all
One reason is simply that it IS right-wing! The great unwashed and the poorly educated.. these types rant and rave at everything. Normally they support SF (who do the same) but on this one occasion, SF doesn’t fit the bill because it takes the usual leftwing view which is supportive of asylum seekers and refugees.
Free Tibet! always comes to mind. It’s class war, nothing else. Are the Tibetans wicked for wanting to preserve their nation-based culture and heritage?
Last edited 1 year ago by Andy Iddon
polidori redux
1 year ago
I am curious to know why an objection to large scale immigration is automatically classified as populist and right-wing. Perhaps people simply object to having their societies disrupted for no good reason.
Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Harry Phillips
1 year ago
My impression is that most people have no issue at all with Ukranians, but have very grave reservations about overwhelmingly male asylum seekers from elsewhere – including many countries that have no conflict – Albania, Pakistan and Georgia being examples. Somalian clan violence has no place in Ireland.
This is in addition to high levels of immigration in recent decades, much of it from Nigeria, which has affected the cohesion of old working class communities – particularly in Dublin. Ireland now is not the same place that many grew up in.
Arrivals can apply for citizenship after 5 years, so are basically here permanently. Deportations are almost unknown.
People should not have to justify their opposition to something they are highly uncomfortable with, but of course they are maligned across the entire media spectrum as racist and influenced by right-wing propaganda. Nothing could be further from the truth – the Irish are among the most welcoming people I have met anywhere.
Well summed up harry. There are differences between Ukrainians who want to be at home and Albanians who are fleeing nothing except a collapsed state economically which is their own fault. Parts of East London are run by Albanian criminals, Barking and Romford among the foremost.
I very much agree with you about the difference of migrants here in Sweden. The Ukrainian women and children are housed in private families and they want and find work almost immediately and kids pick up on school very easily. They assimilate very easy in contrast to migrants from middle East or Africa.
True. However I don’t blame an individual for leaving their home and seeking a better life. It’s the political /media establishment in Ireland who open their legs like a clapped out old w***e to anyone who fancies a ride.
Well summed up harry. There are differences between Ukrainians who want to be at home and Albanians who are fleeing nothing except a collapsed state economically which is their own fault. Parts of East London are run by Albanian criminals, Barking and Romford among the foremost.
I very much agree with you about the difference of migrants here in Sweden. The Ukrainian women and children are housed in private families and they want and find work almost immediately and kids pick up on school very easily. They assimilate very easy in contrast to migrants from middle East or Africa.
True. However I don’t blame an individual for leaving their home and seeking a better life. It’s the political /media establishment in Ireland who open their legs like a clapped out old w***e to anyone who fancies a ride.
Harry Phillips
1 year ago
My impression is that most people have no issue at all with Ukranians, but have very grave reservations about overwhelmingly male asylum seekers from elsewhere – including many countries that have no conflict – Albania, Pakistan and Georgia being examples. Somalian clan violence has no place in Ireland.
This is in addition to high levels of immigration in recent decades, much of it from Nigeria, which has affected the cohesion of old working class communities – particularly in Dublin. Ireland now is not the same place that many grew up in.
Arrivals can apply for citizenship after 5 years, so are basically here permanently. Deportations are almost unknown.
People should not have to justify their opposition to something they are highly uncomfortable with, but of course they are maligned across the entire media spectrum as racist and influenced by right-wing propaganda. Nothing could be further from the truth – the Irish are among the most welcoming people I have met anywhere.
But they have had enough.
D Walsh
1 year ago
Ireland has has a serious housing and homeless problem for years, Fianna Gael have been telling voters nothing could be done, then over night thousands of Ukrainians arrive, with no limit on the numbers, and its amazing, they get housed instantly
So many people are arriving now that it won’t be long before the Irish are a minority in our own country. Ireland is full. Dún an doras
It will be interesting to see how many of the Irish now complaining about immigrants were the same ones quick to demonise British voters as racist for complaining about their much more substantial immigration numbers, both legal and illegal
How would they be the same ones, if you think your own country should have sane immigration policies, why would you insult people in the UK who want the same
Nimbyism is certainly a factor in these debates surrounding the housing of immigrants.
The residents of Martha’s Vineyard were happy to criticise Texan border towns for their unwelcoming attitude, yet when given the opportunity to welcome migrants into their own community, their “open arms” policy became “closed door” pretty quickly
Made it up? Really?
Martha’s Vineyard is a proud “sanctuary” jurisdiction in a self-proclaimed “sanctuary” state, ie one which boasts they would never inform on illegal migrants to immigration authorities.
Yet within hours of a mere 50 migrants landing on their shores, this “sanctuary” declared an humanitarian crisis and did whatever they could to rid themselves of the burden. 50 migrants, in a place where 65% of homes sit vacant, awaiting their uber-wealthy owners on vacation, could not find anywhere to shelter these migrants?
Meanwhile the heavily Democrat-leaning residents decry the “callousness” of border towns for not welcoming migrants. El Paso receives between 1200 and 1300 every day.
‘Virtue Signalling’, as an expression, might be overused and hackneyed but it perfectly describes the practice of poseurs promoting their moral correctness whilst failing to live up to their own pronouncements.
Wealthy denizens of Democrat controlled cities wish to advertise their moral superiority without it costing them anything, either in monetary terms, or effort or discomfort. The moment it does, they cry foul and wish to rid themselves of the problem.
De Santis showed them up.
Which part of that is made up? Or is it merely that you – like the MV residents – don’t like facing up to uncomfortable truths?
Made it up? Really?
Martha’s Vineyard is a proud “sanctuary” jurisdiction in a self-proclaimed “sanctuary” state, ie one which boasts they would never inform on illegal migrants to immigration authorities.
Yet within hours of a mere 50 migrants landing on their shores, this “sanctuary” declared an humanitarian crisis and did whatever they could to rid themselves of the burden. 50 migrants, in a place where 65% of homes sit vacant, awaiting their uber-wealthy owners on vacation, could not find anywhere to shelter these migrants?
Meanwhile the heavily Democrat-leaning residents decry the “callousness” of border towns for not welcoming migrants. El Paso receives between 1200 and 1300 every day.
‘Virtue Signalling’, as an expression, might be overused and hackneyed but it perfectly describes the practice of poseurs promoting their moral correctness whilst failing to live up to their own pronouncements.
Wealthy denizens of Democrat controlled cities wish to advertise their moral superiority without it costing them anything, either in monetary terms, or effort or discomfort. The moment it does, they cry foul and wish to rid themselves of the problem.
De Santis showed them up.
Which part of that is made up? Or is it merely that you – like the MV residents – don’t like facing up to uncomfortable truths?
Ignorance could be a factor. It’s easy to criticise the opinions of those negatively affected by immigration, same way the middle classes look down on the working class in Britain. However your opinions can soon change when it affects you personally
Nimbyism is certainly a factor in these debates surrounding the housing of immigrants.
The residents of Martha’s Vineyard were happy to criticise Texan border towns for their unwelcoming attitude, yet when given the opportunity to welcome migrants into their own community, their “open arms” policy became “closed door” pretty quickly
Ignorance could be a factor. It’s easy to criticise the opinions of those negatively affected by immigration, same way the middle classes look down on the working class in Britain. However your opinions can soon change when it affects you personally
In fairness, the anti-Brexit folk would also be of an open-borders tendency. They are really just the smug middle-class establishment. For years now, their representative newspaper columnists have been churning out the same opinion piece week after week, having a good old laugh at the Brexiteers. Brexit has been a nice earner for these folk. The same columnists have just changed the ribbon on their typewriters and are now churning out the same opinion piece, week after week, predicting that Ireland is being taken over by the “far roysh”.
Fair enough, the perception coming out of Ireland was that most of the country believed that Brexit was a racist idea due to immigration. Perhaps that was skewed by the media as you say
Brexit for the bulk of Irish commentators was, and is, an economic fiasco. The UK migrant issue is seen by most of us as a mere distraction, akin to the Jewish issue in 1930s Germany.. propaganda to find suitable scapegoats while the economy tanks.
In fairness, we have all spent the past seven years watching with amusement as the omnishambles of Brexit unfolds. But I would suggest that conflating Brexit and racism has been a minority sport – mostly played by the columnists at the Irish Times.
Brexit for the bulk of Irish commentators was, and is, an economic fiasco. The UK migrant issue is seen by most of us as a mere distraction, akin to the Jewish issue in 1930s Germany.. propaganda to find suitable scapegoats while the economy tanks.
In fairness, we have all spent the past seven years watching with amusement as the omnishambles of Brexit unfolds. But I would suggest that conflating Brexit and racism has been a minority sport – mostly played by the columnists at the Irish Times.
Fair enough, the perception coming out of Ireland was that most of the country believed that Brexit was a racist idea due to immigration. Perhaps that was skewed by the media as you say
In what way do you assume I’m a lefty? What in that comment gives you any impression of my political leanings? Or was it simply an attempt at misdirection on your part to avoid answering my question in regards to Irish hypocrisy?
In what way do you assume I’m a lefty? What in that comment gives you any impression of my political leanings? Or was it simply an attempt at misdirection on your part to avoid answering my question in regards to Irish hypocrisy?
Very, very few Irish are complaining. We have a minority of racist loser ball-bags, same as anywhere, but they do not speak for the vast majority of Irish people. Not one of these far-right groups has a single person elected. According to the police however, they are in active collaboration with US and British right-wing agitators. Scum finds its own level.
Funnily enough I know a few boys who went home to Ireland for Christmas, and they said all their families were complaining about the asylum seekers so perhaps it’s more prevalent outside of your nice middle class circles than you realise?
Also Britain hasn’t elected any far right MPs. They haven’t elected the political wings of any terrorist groups either, unlike in Ireland where they’re the largest party
Funnily enough I know a few boys who went home to Ireland for Christmas, and they said all their families were complaining about the asylum seekers so perhaps it’s more prevalent outside of your nice middle class circles than you realise?
Also Britain hasn’t elected any far right MPs. They haven’t elected the political wings of any terrorist groups either, unlike in Ireland where they’re the largest party
I venture to say a totally different cohort. Think of BNP and their Irish equivalent, ie this new, tiny, unrepresentative IFP and you’ll get the gist of it.
How would they be the same ones, if you think your own country should have sane immigration policies, why would you insult people in the UK who want the same
In fairness, the anti-Brexit folk would also be of an open-borders tendency. They are really just the smug middle-class establishment. For years now, their representative newspaper columnists have been churning out the same opinion piece week after week, having a good old laugh at the Brexiteers. Brexit has been a nice earner for these folk. The same columnists have just changed the ribbon on their typewriters and are now churning out the same opinion piece, week after week, predicting that Ireland is being taken over by the “far roysh”.
Very, very few Irish are complaining. We have a minority of racist loser ball-bags, same as anywhere, but they do not speak for the vast majority of Irish people. Not one of these far-right groups has a single person elected. According to the police however, they are in active collaboration with US and British right-wing agitators. Scum finds its own level.
I venture to say a totally different cohort. Think of BNP and their Irish equivalent, ie this new, tiny, unrepresentative IFP and you’ll get the gist of it.
It will be interesting to see how many of the Irish now complaining about immigrants were the same ones quick to demonise British voters as racist for complaining about their much more substantial immigration numbers, both legal and illegal
Ireland has has a serious housing and homeless problem for years, Fianna Gael have been telling voters nothing could be done, then over night thousands of Ukrainians arrive, with no limit on the numbers, and its amazing, they get housed instantly
So many people are arriving now that it won’t be long before the Irish are a minority in our own country. Ireland is full. Dún an doras
Last edited 1 year ago by D Walsh
Matt M
1 year ago
Always and everywhere the problem is uncontrolled, mass immigration overwhelming the capacity of societies to house its young people, heal its sick, teach its children and supply its citizens with public goods.
As Milton Friedman put it: you can have open borders or you can have a welfare state.
In the last decade this issue has driven the outcome of elections in Britain, France, Germany, the USA, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria, Italy, Australia, Hungary and Poland. And now Ireland will be added to the list.
And yet the politicians don’t address it.
I’m not sure that argument stacks up. The people of Ireland in the 1800s didn’t expect anything like the standard of living that today’s citizens do. A large and rapid increase in demand for a country’s limited supply of housing stock, public services and infrastructure only has one outcome.
There was no Social Assistance in Ireland in 1823, no state pensions, no council housing, no state education, no power stations or transmission lines, very few roads, no railways, no centralised system for providing water or removing waste, no police or hospitals (in the modern sense), doctors were extremely expensive and not used by the common people.
In short, as I quote above – you can have open borders or you can have a welfare state
Officially Ireland has a population of 5.033 million, Northern Ireland has a population of 1.885 million, add them together and the island has just under 7 million. if you believe the official numbers
The pre famine population was about 8.5 million
Right now the indigenous Irish birth rate has collapsed, while the establishment have lost their minds regarding immigration numbers, they want to push down wages while pushing up rents and house prices, Kuntz
Very true; in fact Ireland being underpopulated is a serious economic problem. Ireland’s (now settled) migrant population has grown to 15% from almost nil in the last 25 years and our prosperity has grown with it!
Generally migrants assimilate better being (until now) far more welcome than in the UK. 90% of Ukrainians will probably return home when NATO permits a negotiated settlement as most will have family there and their own country will have desperate need of them.
I’m not sure that argument stacks up. The people of Ireland in the 1800s didn’t expect anything like the standard of living that today’s citizens do. A large and rapid increase in demand for a country’s limited supply of housing stock, public services and infrastructure only has one outcome.
There was no Social Assistance in Ireland in 1823, no state pensions, no council housing, no state education, no power stations or transmission lines, very few roads, no railways, no centralised system for providing water or removing waste, no police or hospitals (in the modern sense), doctors were extremely expensive and not used by the common people.
In short, as I quote above – you can have open borders or you can have a welfare state
Officially Ireland has a population of 5.033 million, Northern Ireland has a population of 1.885 million, add them together and the island has just under 7 million. if you believe the official numbers
The pre famine population was about 8.5 million
Right now the indigenous Irish birth rate has collapsed, while the establishment have lost their minds regarding immigration numbers, they want to push down wages while pushing up rents and house prices, Kuntz
Very true; in fact Ireland being underpopulated is a serious economic problem. Ireland’s (now settled) migrant population has grown to 15% from almost nil in the last 25 years and our prosperity has grown with it!
Generally migrants assimilate better being (until now) far more welcome than in the UK. 90% of Ukrainians will probably return home when NATO permits a negotiated settlement as most will have family there and their own country will have desperate need of them.
Every country needs to control their borders in the manner that best serves its citizens, but an adequate welfare system does need to be adequately staffed – from the bottom to the top.
It is the control of UK borders that has left the NHS short of 70,000 nurses and a huge number of doctors, porters, cooks, cleaners etc. You seem to assume young, fit, keen migrants simply USE services when in reality they STAFF the services that are currently in dire need of additional people, and being young, fit and healthy use the services far less than say older, frail indigenous people!
Every country needs to control their borders in the manner that best serves its citizens, but an adequate welfare system does need to be adequately staffed – from the bottom to the top.
It is the control of UK borders that has left the NHS short of 70,000 nurses and a huge number of doctors, porters, cooks, cleaners etc. You seem to assume young, fit, keen migrants simply USE services when in reality they STAFF the services that are currently in dire need of additional people, and being young, fit and healthy use the services far less than say older, frail indigenous people!
I think the immigration problem is more in the realm of social politics rather than economics. In the Nordic countries, immigration has led to a collapse in confidence in the welfare system – people are happy to pay taxes to support ‘their people’, not so much to support incomers. The social contract is under a lot of stress there, as they’ve been very homogenous until recently. Immigrants are less of a drain upon the welfare state than natives, do pay taxes, and often do jobs the natives won’t (often in agriculture and care, helping to keep down the costs of food, care) – though they may well send much back to the home country. Some interesting stats from the UK:
in the last 40 years, the population has gone from 56 to 67 million – an increase of 20%, whilst Dept of Health and Care spending has gone up 400% – in real terms, over the same period.
You are probably right about the damage immigration does to the social contract. But I think you are wrong to underplay the economic effect of mass migration. Young, fit, cheap immigrants become couples competing for too few houses, parents needing school places, low paid workers needing Universal Credit and eventually old people with health problems and needed nursing homes. It is an endless cycle – import people to deal with the jobs “Brits don’t want to do” and then import more people to look after the previous wave.
You are probably right about the damage immigration does to the social contract. But I think you are wrong to underplay the economic effect of mass migration. Young, fit, cheap immigrants become couples competing for too few houses, parents needing school places, low paid workers needing Universal Credit and eventually old people with health problems and needed nursing homes. It is an endless cycle – import people to deal with the jobs “Brits don’t want to do” and then import more people to look after the previous wave.
Take a look at Germany’s migration figures and excess mortality, then compare with the UK. Unfortunately hysteria and not data tends to drive the outcome of elections.
I don’t understand what point you are making. Are Germany’s migration figures higher or lower than the UK? What are excess mortality figures and are they higher or lower in Germany? What are you suggesting is the link between the two?
I don’t understand what point you are making. Are Germany’s migration figures higher or lower than the UK? What are excess mortality figures and are they higher or lower in Germany? What are you suggesting is the link between the two?
I think the immigration problem is more in the realm of social politics rather than economics. In the Nordic countries, immigration has led to a collapse in confidence in the welfare system – people are happy to pay taxes to support ‘their people’, not so much to support incomers. The social contract is under a lot of stress there, as they’ve been very homogenous until recently. Immigrants are less of a drain upon the welfare state than natives, do pay taxes, and often do jobs the natives won’t (often in agriculture and care, helping to keep down the costs of food, care) – though they may well send much back to the home country. Some interesting stats from the UK:
in the last 40 years, the population has gone from 56 to 67 million – an increase of 20%, whilst Dept of Health and Care spending has gone up 400% – in real terms, over the same period.
Take a look at Germany’s migration figures and excess mortality, then compare with the UK. Unfortunately hysteria and not data tends to drive the outcome of elections.
Migration is not new. 80 million people around the world call themselves Irish.. we have a mere 5¼ million at home! I guess it’s payback time?
Matt M
1 year ago
Always and everywhere the problem is uncontrolled, mass immigration overwhelming the capacity of societies to house its young people, heal its sick, teach its children and supply its citizens with public goods.
As Milton Friedman put it: you can have open borders or you can have a welfare state.
In the last decade this issue has driven the outcome of elections in Britain, France, Germany, the USA, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria, Italy, Australia, Hungary and Poland. And now Ireland will be added to the list.
And yet the politicians don’t address it.
Last edited 1 year ago by Matt M
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Immigration will always be a problem so long as the people who profit from it are not the ones who pay for it. This is really what defines the leave/remain cleavage in the UK – but it’s the same in every European country and it will eventually destroy the EU (if their dodgy monetary shenanigans don’t do so first)
Dodgy monetary shenanigans are about to become more intense as The EU is now embarking on raising its own loans to sprinkle its own fairy dust over (only) compliant states – who will fall in line as they cant raise their own funds.
That is a really perceptive comment, because it holds true for a lot of issues – immigration, green policies, trans, even COVID restrictions.
There is a real moral hazard as those pushing for it, benefit financially or through woke “credit points” in their social circles, but do not have to pay for it.
Dodgy monetary shenanigans are about to become more intense as The EU is now embarking on raising its own loans to sprinkle its own fairy dust over (only) compliant states – who will fall in line as they cant raise their own funds.
That is a really perceptive comment, because it holds true for a lot of issues – immigration, green policies, trans, even COVID restrictions.
There is a real moral hazard as those pushing for it, benefit financially or through woke “credit points” in their social circles, but do not have to pay for it.
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Immigration will always be a problem so long as the people who profit from it are not the ones who pay for it. This is really what defines the leave/remain cleavage in the UK – but it’s the same in every European country and it will eventually destroy the EU (if their dodgy monetary shenanigans don’t do so first)
John Tangney
1 year ago
One way to neutralize these protests might be to locate temporary accommodation for asylum seekers in leafy suburbs from whose vantage point well-to-do bienpensants call working class defenders of their own localities racists and far-rightists, and maybe to commandeer the Shelbourne and Cork’s Imperial Hotel for the increasing number of homeless asylum seekers. Michael McDowell said in the Irish Times this week that since we’re in a crisis there’s no time to consult people about the measures being taken to house refugees, in light of which his erstwhile Dail colleagues could presumably do all this by fiat.
John Tangney
1 year ago
One way to neutralize these protests might be to locate temporary accommodation for asylum seekers in leafy suburbs from whose vantage point well-to-do bienpensants call working class defenders of their own localities racists and far-rightists, and maybe to commandeer the Shelbourne and Cork’s Imperial Hotel for the increasing number of homeless asylum seekers. Michael McDowell said in the Irish Times this week that since we’re in a crisis there’s no time to consult people about the measures being taken to house refugees, in light of which his erstwhile Dail colleagues could presumably do all this by fiat.
D Glover
1 year ago
Four hundred years ago the policy of ‘plantation’ settled lots of English and Scots protestants in Ireland. This was done by Elizabeth and by James VI & I. These settlers were topped up in the 17th century with some Huguenot French protestants.
How well have Catholic Ireland and Protestant Ireland integrated?
If you introduce lots of new Muslim settlers how long will it take to integrate them? As I’m English it’s none of my business, but I think the Irish might like to think this through before doing it.
IIRC Ireland until quite recently had a good few people prepared to take very direct (often hideous) action against perceived treachery. Did they run away?
To be fair, it wasn’t just the religious difference between Protestants and Catholics. Weren’t Catholics back then also denied certain rights, such as the right to purchase and own land or to hold public office? I’m genuinely not sure, but I seem to recall reading that.
IIRC Ireland until quite recently had a good few people prepared to take very direct (often hideous) action against perceived treachery. Did they run away?
To be fair, it wasn’t just the religious difference between Protestants and Catholics. Weren’t Catholics back then also denied certain rights, such as the right to purchase and own land or to hold public office? I’m genuinely not sure, but I seem to recall reading that.
D Glover
1 year ago
Four hundred years ago the policy of ‘plantation’ settled lots of English and Scots protestants in Ireland. This was done by Elizabeth and by James VI & I. These settlers were topped up in the 17th century with some Huguenot French protestants.
How well have Catholic Ireland and Protestant Ireland integrated?
If you introduce lots of new Muslim settlers how long will it take to integrate them? As I’m English it’s none of my business, but I think the Irish might like to think this through before doing it.
Last edited 1 year ago by D Glover
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Of course just as with United Kingdom and other countries the idea these Nations are physically full up doesn’t make sense. Ireland specifically had a much population before the Famine, although arguably then an unsustainable one.
However migrants of course aren’t of course distributed evenly over the entire country and indeed the countryside any more than they arrived on mass in David Cameron’s constituency in the 2010s. Instead they are concentrated in urban already stressed areas.
There are major issues of infrastructure and planning as well as cultural integration at play here which the establishments in almost all European countries have been utterly blithe and uninterested in for decades. Of course at the same time business rather likes a lot of low-skilled labour arriving on its doorstep.
Many liberals and left wingers think a ‘fair’ process is all important – let’s put aside the point as to whether it is actually ‘fair’ or whether various people have their caring thumbs pushed down hard on the scales! However I’d say OUTCOMES are more important. (Isn’t that supposed to be the case in public policy?!). Like, what population is sustainable, what proportion is it reasonable to think should be recent arrivals from very different cultures? What additional schools, hospitals, doctors, housing etc are needed to accommodate this growth and how do we fund that? How do we truly integrate migrants? The lack of attention or even interest amongst much of our political and intellectual class on these issues is staggering.
Of course just as with United Kingdom and other countries the idea these Nations are physically full up doesn’t make sense. Ireland specifically had a much population before the Famine, although arguably then an unsustainable one.
The population of GB (excluding Northern Ireland) was 12 million in 1822 and is 67 million in 2022.
Ireland is a very special case – 8 million in the 1841 census down to 7 million today (if you count the whole island).
Yes, what is ‘fair’ or ‘kind’ is often very different to what is real or true. So it depends on your priority of values. Unfortunately the former values often take priority now, loss of commitment to reality being a sure sign of collapse.
I reckon we are seeing white flight here in N Ireland judging by the increasing numbers of English people now settling here. Good schools, cheap housing, better quality of life, and an escape from cities which have become alien to their indigenous inhabitants are all reasons given when you talk to newcomers.
> The lack of attention or even interest amongst much of our political and intellectual class on these issues is staggering.
Not really, well among the political class anyway. It’s because they are attentive and interested far more in a completely different problem – How to garner more votes.
Whatever motives politicians and their “useful idiot” supporters claim, much of this obtinately maintained liberalism on immigration is solely in pursuit of gratitude votes, for the party in power when the immigrants arrived.
Of course just as with United Kingdom and other countries the idea these Nations are physically full up doesn’t make sense. Ireland specifically had a much population before the Famine, although arguably then an unsustainable one.
The population of GB (excluding Northern Ireland) was 12 million in 1822 and is 67 million in 2022.
Ireland is a very special case – 8 million in the 1841 census down to 7 million today (if you count the whole island).
Yes, what is ‘fair’ or ‘kind’ is often very different to what is real or true. So it depends on your priority of values. Unfortunately the former values often take priority now, loss of commitment to reality being a sure sign of collapse.
I reckon we are seeing white flight here in N Ireland judging by the increasing numbers of English people now settling here. Good schools, cheap housing, better quality of life, and an escape from cities which have become alien to their indigenous inhabitants are all reasons given when you talk to newcomers.
> The lack of attention or even interest amongst much of our political and intellectual class on these issues is staggering.
Not really, well among the political class anyway. It’s because they are attentive and interested far more in a completely different problem – How to garner more votes.
Whatever motives politicians and their “useful idiot” supporters claim, much of this obtinately maintained liberalism on immigration is solely in pursuit of gratitude votes, for the party in power when the immigrants arrived.
Last edited 1 year ago by John Ramsden
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Of course just as with United Kingdom and other countries the idea these Nations are physically full up doesn’t make sense. Ireland specifically had a much population before the Famine, although arguably then an unsustainable one.
However migrants of course aren’t of course distributed evenly over the entire country and indeed the countryside any more than they arrived on mass in David Cameron’s constituency in the 2010s. Instead they are concentrated in urban already stressed areas.
There are major issues of infrastructure and planning as well as cultural integration at play here which the establishments in almost all European countries have been utterly blithe and uninterested in for decades. Of course at the same time business rather likes a lot of low-skilled labour arriving on its doorstep.
Many liberals and left wingers think a ‘fair’ process is all important – let’s put aside the point as to whether it is actually ‘fair’ or whether various people have their caring thumbs pushed down hard on the scales! However I’d say OUTCOMES are more important. (Isn’t that supposed to be the case in public policy?!). Like, what population is sustainable, what proportion is it reasonable to think should be recent arrivals from very different cultures? What additional schools, hospitals, doctors, housing etc are needed to accommodate this growth and how do we fund that? How do we truly integrate migrants? The lack of attention or even interest amongst much of our political and intellectual class on these issues is staggering.
Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
By ‘selling’ itself to the EU. the Kerrygold Republic has brought this on itself, and I for one must admit I am enjoying some delicious, smug, schadenfreude!
No doubt Legions of Plastic Paddies will be outraged, but this was INEVITABLE!
Well I suppose a little schadenfreude is sometimes understandable and amusing. However this issue goes well beyond the EU as we see from post Brexit Britain.
The reality is that western establishments of all stripes had for decades by the care little about this issue of mass migration or actually wanted to see it increase.
The narrative of an appalling climate catastrophe affecting the ‘Global South’ and forcing millions of people on the move is complete nonsense. This is a political choice. For all our problems there is no serious doubt that the world is richer with, lower family size lower child mortality, and better health outcomes and education than it is ever been.
No, people are just much more aware of how others live elsewhere (or a distorted version of it) they may have existing contacts and family in the West, they are rich enough to pay people smugglers thousands of dollars! And they know they are very likely to be able to stay in practice.
In other words, mass migration is a deliberate western choice. Japan has none, Saudi has accepted precisely zero refugees from the Syrian conflict, despite their having so much in common culturally. China closes its borders when it wishes to. Of course the difference is probably that those countries are a lot tougher with those who have no right to be there. UNCHR or no UNCHR.
“For all our problems there is no serious doubt that the world is richer with, lower family size lower child mortality, and better health outcomes and education than it is ever been.“
Perfectly put Sir!
For all my admiration for the fabled ‘Pax Romana’, I must concede.
Talking of Rome it does rather remind of the situation in the fifth century when hordes of Teutonic and possibly Slavic thugs broke into, and completely destroyed the Western Roman Empire. An unmitigated catastrophe from which we have yet to fully recover.
Yet we seem hell bent’ on repeating this disaster, when all we have to say is NO!
No one has mentioned that Ireland has neither history nor experience of immigration of any volume- Why is it somehow ” wrong” for free people in their own country to, and let me use a much maligned word ” discriminate”? We discriminate every day… what we want to eat, which shop we choose to go to, whom we choose as friends or partners, what car we want, where we go on holiday? Are we therefore ” discriminating” in the new sense of the word against all the above whom we decide against? No, so why should this be any different?
Having said that, our governments are soon going to stop us discriminating in favour of non- electric cars, wood burners, cigarettes… where will it end unless we literally, as an electorate take a stand against our totalitarian politics?
Spot on. In fact Lord Jonathan Sumption had the audacity to draw attention to this problem during the great COVID Scamdemic of all too recent memory.
However I think ‘demos’ have now rumbled the Establishment, and it may not be so easy next time!
Spot on. In fact Lord Jonathan Sumption had the audacity to draw attention to this problem during the great COVID Scamdemic of all too recent memory.
However I think ‘demos’ have now rumbled the Establishment, and it may not be so easy next time!
No one has mentioned that Ireland has neither history nor experience of immigration of any volume- Why is it somehow ” wrong” for free people in their own country to, and let me use a much maligned word ” discriminate”? We discriminate every day… what we want to eat, which shop we choose to go to, whom we choose as friends or partners, what car we want, where we go on holiday? Are we therefore ” discriminating” in the new sense of the word against all the above whom we decide against? No, so why should this be any different?
Having said that, our governments are soon going to stop us discriminating in favour of non- electric cars, wood burners, cigarettes… where will it end unless we literally, as an electorate take a stand against our totalitarian politics?
“For all our problems there is no serious doubt that the world is richer with, lower family size lower child mortality, and better health outcomes and education than it is ever been.“
Perfectly put Sir!
For all my admiration for the fabled ‘Pax Romana’, I must concede.
Talking of Rome it does rather remind of the situation in the fifth century when hordes of Teutonic and possibly Slavic thugs broke into, and completely destroyed the Western Roman Empire. An unmitigated catastrophe from which we have yet to fully recover.
Yet we seem hell bent’ on repeating this disaster, when all we have to say is NO!
A great many plastic paddies, who have always supported Irish independence, support Ireland’s eventual exit from the EU on precisely that basis. I am one myself and I remain confused at the fact that most Irish people are quite happy to surrender their political independence to Brussels, yet are (rightly) proud of their nation’s history in which their ancestors recovered that same independence from Britain.
I am careful of course not to argue directly with Irish voters on this subject because although I’m an Irish citizen, I’m not an Irish resident or voter. The only point I will defend is that a nation cannot be both an EU member and independent: it is one or the other.
After a struggle lasting almost eight centuries to reclaim “the land the Saxons stole* it is curious how quickly the Irish people have jettisoned their hard fought independence.
I suppose it could be called “subverting the elite”, with copious amounts of EU largesse providing the trigger. (Something Ancient Rome was also rather good at.)
Perhaps this immigration farrago will provide the catalyst for a fight back, after all ‘they’ only have to look to England to see what the results of near unrestricted immigration may bring.
(* Not technically correct, but it makes a good song!)
Did you by any chance happen to miss the “not technically correct” bit at the bottom?
However they certainly spoke French, but how actually Norman they were is open to question. It was after all about ten generations since Rollo and his ‘Viking’ thugs pitched up in the valley of the Seine.
Did you by any chance happen to miss the “not technically correct” bit at the bottom?
However they certainly spoke French, but how actually Norman they were is open to question. It was after all about ten generations since Rollo and his ‘Viking’ thugs pitched up in the valley of the Seine.
It’s a popular British viewpoint – what on earth is wrong with the Irish? “Such independent-minded folks, forever fighting to get rid of the British, and now look at them, good little EU members, meekly doing what they’re told.”
The British bewilderment at what they see as a logical inconsistency derives from a fundamental misunderstanding of modern Ireland.
The Brexiter Briton views Ireland through a prism of British patriotism, and assumes that a patriotic Irish person fundamentally must view the world as s/he does.
But we do not.
The vast majority of Irish people are not very nationalist at all.
Certainly, nowhere nearly as nationalistic as English people.
We of course like our little but of autonomy, but at heart we’re EU Federalists.
Until you understand that, you’ll forever be confused about modern Ireland.
Sure, in the early part of the last century, in the years immediately following independence, de Valera’s Ireland certainly was partial to the kind of “anti all outsiders” Romantic notion of independence that Brexiters would approve of.
But that was, er, in the last century. That Irish mindset no longer exists, apart from a few unelectable cranks in the Irish National Party.
Problem is, that kind of “splendid isolation” independence only works if you’re a major world power, and even then it isn’t ideal. Britain is just about big enough to get away with it.
Ireland has no hope of doing so. We’re simply too small, both in population and economic terms.
Once the far-sighted civil servant, T. K. Whitaker, shifted Irish economic policy towards globalisation and openness, the country started a path to economic recovery.
And that lesson has been well learned.
Ireland has two theoretical choices – economic reintegration with the UK, or continuing with the EU. Any purported third way – “freedom” from both the UK and the EU, as advocated by well-meaning Brexiters – is a policy cul de sac, a De Valera style delusion of Skibbereen Eagle proportions.
De facto, a vote to leave the EU is a vote to be once again dominated by the UK.
There is no other real-world choice available to us Charles.
Full independence, for a country as small as Ireland, is a chimaera.
The latent defect in the UK’s structure is its asymmetry.
Just as you can’t have a realistic “joint venture” between (1) Joe Bloggs & Nephew Keyboard Repair Services Limited and (2) Apple Inc; neither, long term, can you have a culturally functioning union between a mid-ranking global power such as England and 3 pipsqueak countries. Even when the English are well disposed towards the shrimps, which isn’t invariable might I add, the Celtic fringe countries will never amount to more than pimples on a large English backside. Culturally, England is always going to dominate. In the past, the Statutes of Kilkenny, which criminalised the Irish language and Irish sports; but sheer cultural mass alone will have a similar effect. In a few generations, any smaller country united with England runs the risk of ceasing to exist, even as a discrete anthropological entity. Just look at Wales. Fine, if your real goal is just to be English-lite, but you should at least be honest about that and admit that Unionism merely is a narrowly-English project, intent on eradicating cultural divergence from English mores. Inevitably, the middles classes in any culture seek to ape the socially dominant classes in the culturally dominant country. Which is why, even today, large swathes of South Dublin Irish people speak with strangulated faux Home Counties accents and read only right-wing English newspapers.
By contrast, inside the EU, there is much greater diversity of culture and more room for tiny countries to retain a distinct cultural identity. That is, while the gorillas of France, Germany, Spain and Italy etc are busy jostling each other, the small-fry nations are left alone. No such dynamic would hold (or does hold) in an inherently-asymmetrical “union” between a large backside and 3 pimples, I’m afraid.
Looking at our 2 real-world choices, no offence mate, we love ya and all (and we do!) – but we’ll stick with the EU.
Thank you for such an erudite and fulsome reply.
There is no doubt about it that the English have never really understood the Irish, as you say, despite a number of notable similarities.
Some years ago now, I used to Lecture in Ireland and even then was astonished by the: “large swathes of South Dublin Irish people speak with strangulated faux Home Counties accents and read only right-wing English newspapers”, as
you rightly say. Some were even sending their offspring to Eton!
I seem to recall that the Statutes of Kilkenny described three classes of people: ‘The Loyal English’, The Wild Irish’ and horror of horrors, ‘The Degenerate English’. Perhaps it is those Degenerate English who now inhabit South Dublin?
Anyway in a spirit of compromise, let use the words of our former mutual arch-enemy and say “Vive la difference!”
Thank you for such an erudite and fulsome reply.
There is no doubt about it that the English have never really understood the Irish, as you say, despite a number of notable similarities.
Some years ago now, I used to Lecture in Ireland and even then was astonished by the: “large swathes of South Dublin Irish people speak with strangulated faux Home Counties accents and read only right-wing English newspapers”, as
you rightly say. Some were even sending their offspring to Eton!
I seem to recall that the Statutes of Kilkenny described three classes of people: ‘The Loyal English’, The Wild Irish’ and horror of horrors, ‘The Degenerate English’. Perhaps it is those Degenerate English who now inhabit South Dublin?
Anyway in a spirit of compromise, let use the words of our former mutual arch-enemy and say “Vive la difference!”
It’s a popular British viewpoint – what on earth is wrong with the Irish? “Such independent-minded folks, forever fighting to get rid of the British, and now look at them, good little EU members, meekly doing what they’re told.”
The British bewilderment at what they see as a logical inconsistency derives from a fundamental misunderstanding of modern Ireland.
The Brexiter Briton views Ireland through a prism of British patriotism, and assumes that a patriotic Irish person fundamentally must view the world as s/he does.
But we do not.
The vast majority of Irish people are not very nationalist at all.
Certainly, nowhere nearly as nationalistic as English people.
We of course like our little but of autonomy, but at heart we’re EU Federalists.
Until you understand that, you’ll forever be confused about modern Ireland.
Sure, in the early part of the last century, in the years immediately following independence, de Valera’s Ireland certainly was partial to the kind of “anti all outsiders” Romantic notion of independence that Brexiters would approve of.
But that was, er, in the last century. That Irish mindset no longer exists, apart from a few unelectable cranks in the Irish National Party.
Problem is, that kind of “splendid isolation” independence only works if you’re a major world power, and even then it isn’t ideal. Britain is just about big enough to get away with it.
Ireland has no hope of doing so. We’re simply too small, both in population and economic terms.
Once the far-sighted civil servant, T. K. Whitaker, shifted Irish economic policy towards globalisation and openness, the country started a path to economic recovery.
And that lesson has been well learned.
Ireland has two theoretical choices – economic reintegration with the UK, or continuing with the EU. Any purported third way – “freedom” from both the UK and the EU, as advocated by well-meaning Brexiters – is a policy cul de sac, a De Valera style delusion of Skibbereen Eagle proportions.
De facto, a vote to leave the EU is a vote to be once again dominated by the UK.
There is no other real-world choice available to us Charles.
Full independence, for a country as small as Ireland, is a chimaera.
The latent defect in the UK’s structure is its asymmetry.
Just as you can’t have a realistic “joint venture” between (1) Joe Bloggs & Nephew Keyboard Repair Services Limited and (2) Apple Inc; neither, long term, can you have a culturally functioning union between a mid-ranking global power such as England and 3 pipsqueak countries. Even when the English are well disposed towards the shrimps, which isn’t invariable might I add, the Celtic fringe countries will never amount to more than pimples on a large English backside. Culturally, England is always going to dominate. In the past, the Statutes of Kilkenny, which criminalised the Irish language and Irish sports; but sheer cultural mass alone will have a similar effect. In a few generations, any smaller country united with England runs the risk of ceasing to exist, even as a discrete anthropological entity. Just look at Wales. Fine, if your real goal is just to be English-lite, but you should at least be honest about that and admit that Unionism merely is a narrowly-English project, intent on eradicating cultural divergence from English mores. Inevitably, the middles classes in any culture seek to ape the socially dominant classes in the culturally dominant country. Which is why, even today, large swathes of South Dublin Irish people speak with strangulated faux Home Counties accents and read only right-wing English newspapers.
By contrast, inside the EU, there is much greater diversity of culture and more room for tiny countries to retain a distinct cultural identity. That is, while the gorillas of France, Germany, Spain and Italy etc are busy jostling each other, the small-fry nations are left alone. No such dynamic would hold (or does hold) in an inherently-asymmetrical “union” between a large backside and 3 pimples, I’m afraid.
Looking at our 2 real-world choices, no offence mate, we love ya and all (and we do!) – but we’ll stick with the EU.
I totally agree and am always annoying the natives when I point out this illogical position to my many relatives in N. Ireland.They then call me a West Briton.
The thing is that since EU membership is presently a process, not a position, increasingly people in Ireland will question the nature of the EU, which presently they do not. The debate over corporation tax has been temporarily delayed by Ireland’s useful idiot position re the NI Protocol, but that can’t last. There will inevitably come a time when Irish voters will substantially oppose a major reality of EU membership, and they will be confronted with the awkward fact that their votes count for nothing.
The thing is that since EU membership is presently a process, not a position, increasingly people in Ireland will question the nature of the EU, which presently they do not. The debate over corporation tax has been temporarily delayed by Ireland’s useful idiot position re the NI Protocol, but that can’t last. There will inevitably come a time when Irish voters will substantially oppose a major reality of EU membership, and they will be confronted with the awkward fact that their votes count for nothing.
After a struggle lasting almost eight centuries to reclaim “the land the Saxons stole* it is curious how quickly the Irish people have jettisoned their hard fought independence.
I suppose it could be called “subverting the elite”, with copious amounts of EU largesse providing the trigger. (Something Ancient Rome was also rather good at.)
Perhaps this immigration farrago will provide the catalyst for a fight back, after all ‘they’ only have to look to England to see what the results of near unrestricted immigration may bring.
(* Not technically correct, but it makes a good song!)
I totally agree and am always annoying the natives when I point out this illogical position to my many relatives in N. Ireland.They then call me a West Briton.
The complete and utter shambles caused by Varadeker and his henchmen – just because their biggest customer decided they no longer wanted to be controlled by the EU (Ultimately) Germany was an absolute assault on the will expressed by a (now) Sovereign state. Especially when The Irish ran out of money and were refused more by (ECB/Meekel/Germany) – it was “the old enemy” that sent a cheque for £7bn. Not such an enemy after all – when the chips were down it seems
I too feel some smugness and expect as more control is centralised to The EU (taxation and debt raising etc) is on its way.
it was “the old enemy” that sent a cheque for £7bn.
Slightly off on the figure and it was a loan. Much appreciated nevertheless. ‘The Irish government has repaid the emergency loan it got from the UK during the last financial crisis. It borrowed £3.23bn as part its international bailout in 2010. The loan was drawn down in eight portions between 2011 and 2013, each to be repaid after seven and a half years.’
it was “the old enemy” that sent a cheque for £7bn.
Slightly off on the figure and it was a loan. Much appreciated nevertheless. ‘The Irish government has repaid the emergency loan it got from the UK during the last financial crisis. It borrowed £3.23bn as part its international bailout in 2010. The loan was drawn down in eight portions between 2011 and 2013, each to be repaid after seven and a half years.’
Wrong again Charles. Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. Everything to do with a centre right Irish government that, for Thatcherite ideological reasons, assumes that the private sector is best at everything, and refuses to build low cost housing stock (that the private sector of course sees as too unprofitable to bother with). That is a policy choice by that govt, nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. That, and a Ukraine war. Which, you will recall, was started by the rat in the Kremlin. Again, nothing to do with the EU. You really need to grow out of your fixation with the EU.
“and refuses to build low cost housing stock (that the private sector of course sees as too unprofitable to bother with).”
There’s the nonsense in your argument. There is no such thing as “low cost” housing that is “unprofitable”. What you mean is that the private sector won’t build expensive houses and then sell them at a loss, which when we put it like that the government has no business doing either. You can dress this up in all the political nonsense you like, but the fact is that you’re talking ideological drivel.
“and refuses to build low cost housing stock (that the private sector of course sees as too unprofitable to bother with).”
There’s the nonsense in your argument. There is no such thing as “low cost” housing that is “unprofitable”. What you mean is that the private sector won’t build expensive houses and then sell them at a loss, which when we put it like that the government has no business doing either. You can dress this up in all the political nonsense you like, but the fact is that you’re talking ideological drivel.
Well I suppose a little schadenfreude is sometimes understandable and amusing. However this issue goes well beyond the EU as we see from post Brexit Britain.
The reality is that western establishments of all stripes had for decades by the care little about this issue of mass migration or actually wanted to see it increase.
The narrative of an appalling climate catastrophe affecting the ‘Global South’ and forcing millions of people on the move is complete nonsense. This is a political choice. For all our problems there is no serious doubt that the world is richer with, lower family size lower child mortality, and better health outcomes and education than it is ever been.
No, people are just much more aware of how others live elsewhere (or a distorted version of it) they may have existing contacts and family in the West, they are rich enough to pay people smugglers thousands of dollars! And they know they are very likely to be able to stay in practice.
In other words, mass migration is a deliberate western choice. Japan has none, Saudi has accepted precisely zero refugees from the Syrian conflict, despite their having so much in common culturally. China closes its borders when it wishes to. Of course the difference is probably that those countries are a lot tougher with those who have no right to be there. UNCHR or no UNCHR.
A great many plastic paddies, who have always supported Irish independence, support Ireland’s eventual exit from the EU on precisely that basis. I am one myself and I remain confused at the fact that most Irish people are quite happy to surrender their political independence to Brussels, yet are (rightly) proud of their nation’s history in which their ancestors recovered that same independence from Britain.
I am careful of course not to argue directly with Irish voters on this subject because although I’m an Irish citizen, I’m not an Irish resident or voter. The only point I will defend is that a nation cannot be both an EU member and independent: it is one or the other.
The complete and utter shambles caused by Varadeker and his henchmen – just because their biggest customer decided they no longer wanted to be controlled by the EU (Ultimately) Germany was an absolute assault on the will expressed by a (now) Sovereign state. Especially when The Irish ran out of money and were refused more by (ECB/Meekel/Germany) – it was “the old enemy” that sent a cheque for £7bn. Not such an enemy after all – when the chips were down it seems
I too feel some smugness and expect as more control is centralised to The EU (taxation and debt raising etc) is on its way.
Wrong again Charles. Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. Everything to do with a centre right Irish government that, for Thatcherite ideological reasons, assumes that the private sector is best at everything, and refuses to build low cost housing stock (that the private sector of course sees as too unprofitable to bother with). That is a policy choice by that govt, nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. That, and a Ukraine war. Which, you will recall, was started by the rat in the Kremlin. Again, nothing to do with the EU. You really need to grow out of your fixation with the EU.
The new Sinn Fein slogan “Brits out, everyone else in”
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
By ‘selling’ itself to the EU. the Kerrygold Republic has brought this on itself, and I for one must admit I am enjoying some delicious, smug, schadenfreude!
No doubt Legions of Plastic Paddies will be outraged, but this was INEVITABLE!
Jürg Gassmann
1 year ago
Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have perfected the art of marrying socialist taxation with neoliberal state services – i.e. as few and as crappy as they can get away with. As others have said, FF and FG have said for years if not decades, in the face of Ireland’s dismal problems with housing shortage and overloaded health services, that they’re doing all they can and nothing more can be done, only to shake the magic money tree for Corona and Ukraine refugees.
Voters will gravitate towards politicians that address the issues voters feel strongly about. If an establishment party refuses to engage and lead on an issue, voters will look elsewhere. That is not populism, that is democracy.
I’m sick of the bogey of ‘right wing populism’ being raised every time desperate people are pushed too far and take to the streets. So-called liberal commentaters don’t give a stuff about the FF/FG exacerbated housing crisis etc. in the South but they’ll get up on their hind legs to screech about right wing populism and perceived racism quick enough. Sinn Fein will be up to the same tricks if they get the chance.
I’m sick of the bogey of ‘right wing populism’ being raised every time desperate people are pushed too far and take to the streets. So-called liberal commentaters don’t give a stuff about the FF/FG exacerbated housing crisis etc. in the South but they’ll get up on their hind legs to screech about right wing populism and perceived racism quick enough. Sinn Fein will be up to the same tricks if they get the chance.
Jürg Gassmann
1 year ago
Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have perfected the art of marrying socialist taxation with neoliberal state services – i.e. as few and as crappy as they can get away with. As others have said, FF and FG have said for years if not decades, in the face of Ireland’s dismal problems with housing shortage and overloaded health services, that they’re doing all they can and nothing more can be done, only to shake the magic money tree for Corona and Ukraine refugees.
Voters will gravitate towards politicians that address the issues voters feel strongly about. If an establishment party refuses to engage and lead on an issue, voters will look elsewhere. That is not populism, that is democracy.
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago
Why are they ‘right wing’? If anti-immigrant position is combined with a commitment to the welfare state (exclusionary, membership based citizen solidarity) and a hostility to faceless global corporations, is that ‘right wing’? Is left/right wing simply a litmus of cosmopolitanism and diversity?
The world’s first welfare state was in Prussia, and it was developed by von Bismark. He was intensely right-wing by modern standards, but he cared enough about the Prussian workers that he gave them things like pensions and sickness benefit.
Sometimes the right/left dichotomy is not the right metric to use.
The world’s first welfare state was in Prussia, and it was developed by von Bismark. He was intensely right-wing by modern standards, but he cared enough about the Prussian workers that he gave them things like pensions and sickness benefit.
Sometimes the right/left dichotomy is not the right metric to use.
Last edited 1 year ago by D Glover
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago
Why are they ‘right wing’? If anti-immigrant position is combined with a commitment to the welfare state (exclusionary, membership based citizen solidarity) and a hostility to faceless global corporations, is that ‘right wing’? Is left/right wing simply a litmus of cosmopolitanism and diversity?
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
The Right-Wing-Populists! They want Ireland to remain Irish! How horrifying. The woke-globalist hegemony is appalled by their Racism. The agenda is to homogenize the world and Ireland is not excused.
Other countries took in the Irish by the millions when they were in trouble, so no, it doesn’t look great when the favour is not returned, especially for a community that calls itself Christian. Moreover, whilst untramelled immigration is clearly a problem, so is xenophobia – so, it’s a little more complicated than your comment suggests. There are plenty of laws in place already for countries to evict criminals, and to the best of my knowledge, immigrants are less likely to do criminal acts. Though, as with schizophrenics, it is so much more scary when they do crime – at least to a certain mindset.
The countries that took the Irish in by the millions aren’t the ones from which immigrants are coming to Ireland now, so there’s no question of returning a favour. Moreover, apart from the UK, the countries to which the Irish primarily emigrated in the 19th century were vast, largely empty, continents with whose colonial populations they had deep cultural affinities, not tiny islands like Ireland with whose cultural and political values few of the immigrants arriving here from Africa, Asia and the Middle East have anything in common.
The Irish immmigrants to the USA faced deep resistance and prejudice for decades from the locals, who very much looked down on them (I could name just a few typical slurs, but that would not be politic) – I have little sympathy for any Irish now aggressively complaining about immigrants – massive hypocrisy, especially where they also claim to be christian, and the immigrants are Ukranian refugees. Annnemarie’s commments give a very clear sense of the qualities of such complainers.
To be clear, I have no problem with Ireland controlling, reducing immigration – if it wants this as a democratic position. Just not minded to let the hypocrisy, or the xenophobic elements a pass. In a country that calls itself christian, was Vatican dominated for a long long time, plays up to underdog status, supplied immigrants in huge proportions, and has boasted of enormous benefits from EU integration…..Perhaps as Mr Stanhope is doing, I should relax and bask in the the schadenfreude.
The Irish immmigrants to the USA faced deep resistance and prejudice for decades from the locals, who very much looked down on them (I could name just a few typical slurs, but that would not be politic) – I have little sympathy for any Irish now aggressively complaining about immigrants – massive hypocrisy, especially where they also claim to be christian, and the immigrants are Ukranian refugees. Annnemarie’s commments give a very clear sense of the qualities of such complainers.
To be clear, I have no problem with Ireland controlling, reducing immigration – if it wants this as a democratic position. Just not minded to let the hypocrisy, or the xenophobic elements a pass. In a country that calls itself christian, was Vatican dominated for a long long time, plays up to underdog status, supplied immigrants in huge proportions, and has boasted of enormous benefits from EU integration…..Perhaps as Mr Stanhope is doing, I should relax and bask in the the schadenfreude.
Catch yourself on with your weird co dependent effeminate claptrap. There is nothing in Christianity that tells people to let themselves be buggered up the ass and feed their neighbours children while their own starve
Immigrants are less likely to ‘do criminal acts’? Have you seen the population of European prisons, or crime stats (where they exist)? And no, it’s not down to ‘systemic racism’.
Of course, there are ‘immigrants’ and immigrants. Most from greater Asia seem to go to the US, work hard and contribute, while demonstrating strong family values and appreciating the chance they have been given. Then there are those who do none of those things.
Of course, there are ‘immigrants’ and immigrants. Most from greater Asia seem to go to the US, work hard and contribute, while demonstrating strong family values and appreciating the chance they have been given. Then there are those who do none of those things.
Those who are in favour of accepting true refugees, while being healthily suspicious of large numbers of migrant single men, many of whom come from cultures where women have little or no status, are hardly xenophobic.
The ‘plenty of laws to evict criminals’ bit never works, since the human rights lawyers delay everything until length of residence means that the right to stay is inevitable.
I already stated that I’ve no problem with a robust immigration policy…only with xenophobic elements – these are very real. You may be correct about the law, I don’t know, but that is on our system, not on immigrants nor their lawyers.
I already stated that I’ve no problem with a robust immigration policy…only with xenophobic elements – these are very real. You may be correct about the law, I don’t know, but that is on our system, not on immigrants nor their lawyers.
The countries that took the Irish in by the millions aren’t the ones from which immigrants are coming to Ireland now, so there’s no question of returning a favour. Moreover, apart from the UK, the countries to which the Irish primarily emigrated in the 19th century were vast, largely empty, continents with whose colonial populations they had deep cultural affinities, not tiny islands like Ireland with whose cultural and political values few of the immigrants arriving here from Africa, Asia and the Middle East have anything in common.
Catch yourself on with your weird co dependent effeminate claptrap. There is nothing in Christianity that tells people to let themselves be buggered up the ass and feed their neighbours children while their own starve
Immigrants are less likely to ‘do criminal acts’? Have you seen the population of European prisons, or crime stats (where they exist)? And no, it’s not down to ‘systemic racism’.
Those who are in favour of accepting true refugees, while being healthily suspicious of large numbers of migrant single men, many of whom come from cultures where women have little or no status, are hardly xenophobic.
The ‘plenty of laws to evict criminals’ bit never works, since the human rights lawyers delay everything until length of residence means that the right to stay is inevitable.
Other countries took in the Irish by the millions when they were in trouble, so no, it doesn’t look great when the favour is not returned, especially for a community that calls itself Christian. Moreover, whilst untramelled immigration is clearly a problem, so is xenophobia – so, it’s a little more complicated than your comment suggests. There are plenty of laws in place already for countries to evict criminals, and to the best of my knowledge, immigrants are less likely to do criminal acts. Though, as with schizophrenics, it is so much more scary when they do crime – at least to a certain mindset.
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
The Right-Wing-Populists! They want Ireland to remain Irish! How horrifying. The woke-globalist hegemony is appalled by their Racism. The agenda is to homogenize the world and Ireland is not excused.
John Ramsden
1 year ago
Not surprisingly there has been not a squeak on the BBC online news page about these anti-immigration demos in Ireland. One sees there only news that suits their agenda, and anything else is swept under the carpet. Partiality verging on propaganda by omission.
Amusingly, the BBC is among the most enthusiastic proponents of the ‘Trusted News Initiative’.
I wouldn’t trust them to tell me what yesterday’s weather was.
Amusingly, the BBC is among the most enthusiastic proponents of the ‘Trusted News Initiative’.
I wouldn’t trust them to tell me what yesterday’s weather was.
John Ramsden
1 year ago
Not surprisingly there has been not a squeak on the BBC online news page about these anti-immigration demos in Ireland. One sees there only news that suits their agenda, and anything else is swept under the carpet. Partiality verging on propaganda by omission.
John Riordan
1 year ago
I suspect the final prediction will be proved correct – simply because it is in the interests of Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael to split the populist vote to which Sinn Fein appears to have exclusive access presently. There is therefore an incentive for the major two parties to make ideological room for the anti-immigrant protest vote as long as it goes to anyone but Sinn Fein.
This will also come with a greater public profile for anti-EU parties of course, but that would still be better than allowing Sinn Fein to make further inroads into popular support. And the EU is of course still building its federation program for all Euro nations, which has been and still is a giant car-crash waiting to happen as Ireland’s favoured destination for global multinational head offices comes under further attack, so there is always the EU itself to help these fringe parties along.
If by NGO’s you also mean unelected/unsackable Eurocrats at The EU – over which The Irish nor any other “member state” has any influence (Germany being the ONLY exception) – then yep! Its all true.
I took D Walsh to mean the sort of organisations that wielded the telling influence during the last 3 years of western governmental panic and missteps.
I took D Walsh to mean the sort of organisations that wielded the telling influence during the last 3 years of western governmental panic and missteps.
If by NGO’s you also mean unelected/unsackable Eurocrats at The EU – over which The Irish nor any other “member state” has any influence (Germany being the ONLY exception) – then yep! Its all true.
Will the next election even matter all that much, the country is controlled by NGOs now, it makes no difference who you vote for
John Riordan
1 year ago
I suspect the final prediction will be proved correct – simply because it is in the interests of Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael to split the populist vote to which Sinn Fein appears to have exclusive access presently. There is therefore an incentive for the major two parties to make ideological room for the anti-immigrant protest vote as long as it goes to anyone but Sinn Fein.
This will also come with a greater public profile for anti-EU parties of course, but that would still be better than allowing Sinn Fein to make further inroads into popular support. And the EU is of course still building its federation program for all Euro nations, which has been and still is a giant car-crash waiting to happen as Ireland’s favoured destination for global multinational head offices comes under further attack, so there is always the EU itself to help these fringe parties along.
Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
rob drummond
1 year ago
If Ireland is full (of emptiness!) what does that make England?
Free movement between richer northern European countries and those of eastern and southern poorer countries was always going to have economic migration. Only a Politician blinded by an idiotic and irreconcilable dream would not foresee it.
Sorry Ireland – your unelected/unsackable masters far from your shores have decided “you will do as your told”. Especially when you dared to vote against them in your referendum.
But even in Ireland the mood is now changing – is it because you are now a net contributor? Is it because you can see your EU subs increasing with 6 more extremely poor countries on their way in?
Most people in Ireland know little about how the EU works or what our financial contribution is, and those that do are generally in favour of open borders. The recent change in mood is because it’s become impossible for everyone else to ignore the demographic seachange taking place, which they’ve never been directly consulted about by the people who purport to represent them.
Most people in Ireland know little about how the EU works or what our financial contribution is, and those that do are generally in favour of open borders. The recent change in mood is because it’s become impossible for everyone else to ignore the demographic seachange taking place, which they’ve never been directly consulted about by the people who purport to represent them.
rob drummond
1 year ago
If Ireland is full (of emptiness!) what does that make England?
Free movement between richer northern European countries and those of eastern and southern poorer countries was always going to have economic migration. Only a Politician blinded by an idiotic and irreconcilable dream would not foresee it.
Sorry Ireland – your unelected/unsackable masters far from your shores have decided “you will do as your told”. Especially when you dared to vote against them in your referendum.
But even in Ireland the mood is now changing – is it because you are now a net contributor? Is it because you can see your EU subs increasing with 6 more extremely poor countries on their way in?
Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Bryan Dale
1 year ago
It’s the same story everywhere. Populism is essentially democracy in action and so it threatens establishment politicians who put their own agendas ahead of the people. There’s something absurd about a nationalist party like Sin Fein, that for years has supported terrorists fighting over religious differences, and yet supports open immigration of people with all kinds of religions and nationalities. It’s hard to dislodge the established powers, but I wish the Irish good luck. They’ll be better off if democracy wins.
Nobody in SF was fighting over religious differences
Bryan Dale
1 year ago
It’s the same story everywhere. Populism is essentially democracy in action and so it threatens establishment politicians who put their own agendas ahead of the people. There’s something absurd about a nationalist party like Sin Fein, that for years has supported terrorists fighting over religious differences, and yet supports open immigration of people with all kinds of religions and nationalities. It’s hard to dislodge the established powers, but I wish the Irish good luck. They’ll be better off if democracy wins.
William Cameron
1 year ago
This report is very misleading. Most Ukrainian refugees are women and children. Their men are fighting.
Most of these offences are being committed by “refugees” from other countries.
No it’s not. I clearly differentiated between the 70k Ukrainian refugees (which are about 30% male – 70% female) and the 20k other asylum seekers. The other group is the one with 40% no travel IDs and 50% single male.
No it’s not. I clearly differentiated between the 70k Ukrainian refugees (which are about 30% male – 70% female) and the 20k other asylum seekers. The other group is the one with 40% no travel IDs and 50% single male.
William Cameron
1 year ago
This report is very misleading. Most Ukrainian refugees are women and children. Their men are fighting.
Most of these offences are being committed by “refugees” from other countries.
Richard Barrett
1 year ago
I believe that there is a reasonable way forward for Ireland, which neither appeases the far right nor demonises all demonstrators as Nazis. Measures like this: (1) Include pre-existing homeless people in Ireland in all emergency housing arrangements. (2) Turn back all arrivals in Ireland who have destroyed their documents in transit. (3) Have a faster one-stop appeal system for asylum seekers. Also, I personally think that Ireland’s legal obligation to admit Ukrainian refugees needs to be suspended for the next 1-2 years in order to bring the existing accommodation crisis under control.
I’m not sure how you’d establish (or prove) your item 2.
Richard Barrett
1 year ago
I believe that there is a reasonable way forward for Ireland, which neither appeases the far right nor demonises all demonstrators as Nazis. Measures like this: (1) Include pre-existing homeless people in Ireland in all emergency housing arrangements. (2) Turn back all arrivals in Ireland who have destroyed their documents in transit. (3) Have a faster one-stop appeal system for asylum seekers. Also, I personally think that Ireland’s legal obligation to admit Ukrainian refugees needs to be suspended for the next 1-2 years in order to bring the existing accommodation crisis under control.
Tony Kilmister
1 year ago
Ireland is the EU’s leading economy measured by domestic output per head. Irish citizens, according to the statistics, enjoy incomes on average twice those of Germans, and two n half times those of us poor Brits.
Surely the land of the craic can well afford to step up and embrace its beloved EU’s policy of extending a welcoming invite to underemployed criminals beyond its borders?
And who in politics nowadays cares what the working class wants?
Last edited 1 year ago by Tony Kilmister
Tony Kilmister
1 year ago
Ireland is the EU’s leading economy measured by domestic output per head. Irish citizens, according to the statistics, enjoy incomes on average twice those of Germans, and two n half times those of us poor Brits.
Surely the land of the craic can well afford to step up and embrace its beloved EU’s policy of extending a welcoming invite to underemployed criminals beyond its borders?
And who in politics nowadays cares what the working class wants?
Last edited 1 year ago by Tony Kilmister
Andrew Stoll
1 year ago
What’s the difference between invading native lands in Ireland or anywhere else, disrupting the indiginous way of life and eventually overwhelming it?
The indigenous population is not happy but has no say – until descendents of the invaders feel remorse for ‘living in someone else’s land’ Happened plenty of times before!
Feeling remorse for living in someone else’s land is unique to the descendents of European colonists as far as I know.
Andrew Stoll
1 year ago
What’s the difference between invading native lands in Ireland or anywhere else, disrupting the indiginous way of life and eventually overwhelming it?
The indigenous population is not happy but has no say – until descendents of the invaders feel remorse for ‘living in someone else’s land’ Happened plenty of times before!
G A Braine
1 year ago
They have more backbone than those in the UK. To support their culture makes them right wing! This is the globalist propaganda as they know strong cultures like Irish are stronger together. So easy to divide mixed society. No cohesion without nationality and unity, Japan is the paradigm for this!!
G A Braine
1 year ago
They have more backbone than those in the UK. To support their culture makes them right wing! This is the globalist propaganda as they know strong cultures like Irish are stronger together. So easy to divide mixed society. No cohesion without nationality and unity, Japan is the paradigm for this!!
Annemarie Ni Dhalaigh
1 year ago
Good article. I’ve been surprised by the turn out at these protests. We will see how it develops. There’s an open class war by the private school posh boy “left” in Ireland against ordinary people. Migration is one front of this war.
Annemarie Ni Dhalaigh
1 year ago
Good article. I’ve been surprised by the turn out at these protests. We will see how it develops. There’s an open class war by the private school posh boy “left” in Ireland against ordinary people. Migration is one front of this war.
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
What a surprise… not?
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
What a surprise… not?
Dermot O'Sullivan
1 year ago
Oh, imperfect world!
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
The piece omitted to mention the huge support the IFP enjoys.. ‘must be nearly 1% now is it? The piece suggests IFP and the right-wing extremist racists (maybe another 1 or 2% of the population) is a growing movement. It isn’t. What is growing is the level of disenchantment with the FF/FG government which has failed dismally to address the housing crisis over the past 15 years. Indeed many TDs (MPs) are landlords so we can forget about reducing scarcity which keeps rents high.
Developers and builders are huge FF/FG supporters so they too are accommodated in hoarding land banks and so keeping house prices high. FF/FG have set their faces against public housing in favour of a corrupt building sector and it is this (and other government failures) that has the right-wing extremists up in arms. Sadly they take it out on migrants (who ARE housed and at very high cost) instead of directing their anger where it belongs.. at the government!
So, anti government sentiment is a big deal and growing but anti immigrant is really confined to the racist xenophobes you find everywhere. I Ireland they form small minority unlike the UK.
The piece omitted to mention the huge support the IFP enjoys.. ‘must be nearly 1% now is it? The piece suggests IFP and the right-wing extremist racists (maybe another 1 or 2% of the population) is a growing movement. It isn’t. What is growing is the level of disenchantment with the FF/FG government which has failed dismally to address the housing crisis over the past 15 years. Indeed many TDs (MPs) are landlords so we can forget about reducing scarcity which keeps rents high.
Developers and builders are huge FF/FG supporters so they too are accommodated in hoarding land banks and so keeping house prices high. FF/FG have set their faces against public housing in favour of a corrupt building sector and it is this (and other government failures) that has the right-wing extremists up in arms. Sadly they take it out on migrants (who ARE housed and at very high cost) instead of directing their anger where it belongs.. at the government!
So, anti government sentiment is a big deal and growing but anti immigrant is really confined to the racist xenophobes you find everywhere. I Ireland they form small minority unlike the UK.
Samuel Gee
1 year ago
Hilarious banner. “Ireland is Full” For 160 odd years the Irish have been lamenting the depopulation of Ireland. Sad songs about how they had to leave the emerald isle and how they all want to go back really. They have a point. In 1840 the population of Ireland was 8m (6.5m in what is now the Republic). The current population is 5m. So, they have a few places left. Famous for sending their compatriots all over the world as emigrants they now complain about immigrants. In the words of Lance Corporal Jones. They don’t like it up’em.
It’s a bit rich to hear the Irish complain about immigration.They have made an art of emigration to wherever they possibly could. Most of which was for economic reasons only.
That is what I think about when I hear these debates. Without dismissing the complexity of waves of refugees into nations and housing difficulties, etc., I feel as if the Irish don’t understand their history, of how we we were forced to emigrate to find work/lives elsewhere, often treated like animals (USA included), and now some are lamenting when people are forced to turn to our land for some opportunity. Just a little empathy would be desirable in my view. Would like to know people’s thoughts.
It’s a bit rich to hear the Irish complain about immigration.They have made an art of emigration to wherever they possibly could. Most of which was for economic reasons only.
That is what I think about when I hear these debates. Without dismissing the complexity of waves of refugees into nations and housing difficulties, etc., I feel as if the Irish don’t understand their history, of how we we were forced to emigrate to find work/lives elsewhere, often treated like animals (USA included), and now some are lamenting when people are forced to turn to our land for some opportunity. Just a little empathy would be desirable in my view. Would like to know people’s thoughts.
Samuel Gee
1 year ago
Hilarious banner. “Ireland is Full” For 160 odd years the Irish have been lamenting the depopulation of Ireland. Sad songs about how they had to leave the emerald isle and how they all want to go back really. They have a point. In 1840 the population of Ireland was 8m (6.5m in what is now the Republic). The current population is 5m. So, they have a few places left. Famous for sending their compatriots all over the world as emigrants they now complain about immigrants. In the words of Lance Corporal Jones. They don’t like it up’em.
I am curious to know why an objection to large scale immigration is automatically classified as populist and right-wing. Perhaps people simply object to having their societies disrupted for no good reason.
I am equally confused. Meanwhile, citizens of other countries are praised and sympathised with in the fight against imperialism and the erosion of their cultures.
In what way do you conflate threats to burn immigrants https://www.thejournal.ie/far-right-money-making-5986480-Feb2023/ with a “fight against imperialism”?
56% of people polled last weekend agreed with the sentiment that ireland has taken too many ‘refugees’ over the past 12 months. A further 14% said they ‘don’t know’.
That would suggest that between 56 and 70 percent of Irish are now ‘far right’ if the standards of the establishment media, political and ngo class are to be applied.
Is that realistic on any level? Obviously not. More like between 56 and 70 percent of Irish people have no political representation on this issue (and a myriad of others).
Success in the polls (perhaps even an overall majority in the case of Sinn Fein) awaits any establishment party that steps up and provides leadership in the form of a basic common sense approach to the issue ie no more until such time as sufficient housing and basic services are available to cater to those already here.
If none step up, someone else will step into that space instead.
56% of people polled last weekend agreed with the sentiment that ireland has taken too many ‘refugees’ over the past 12 months. A further 14% said they ‘don’t know’.
That would suggest that between 56 and 70 percent of Irish are now ‘far right’ if the standards of the establishment media, political and ngo class are to be applied.
Is that realistic on any level? Obviously not. More like between 56 and 70 percent of Irish people have no political representation on this issue (and a myriad of others).
Success in the polls (perhaps even an overall majority in the case of Sinn Fein) awaits any establishment party that steps up and provides leadership in the form of a basic common sense approach to the issue ie no more until such time as sufficient housing and basic services are available to cater to those already here.
If none step up, someone else will step into that space instead.
No one is eroding Irish culture.. that is not the issue. The real issue is housing.. there is a serious (govt contrived) housing shortage but these idiots are blaming migrants instead. To be fair, many (most?) actually do blame the govt as well. Of course the fault lies squarely with the govt and the poor migrants merely exacerbate the problem, aided and abetted by the usual Farage types. Yep, we have them in Ireland as well.
Look around you at other countries – step one people say it isn’t eroding culture and heritage, step two is inclusivity means not mentioning any idea of national birthright or cultural dominance – Irish culture will then be selectively treated as equivalent to minority culture, which leads to selective plasticity of values. The purpose of this is to remove the threat of the masses to the takeover by capital, where the people will find their position changed from nationals used to the govt pursuing their interests into powerless customers in a state that pursues the property ownership rights of wealth as paramount. Just look at the UK as an example. It has nothing to do with the disgusting and misleading term “anti-immigrant”, coined by Tony Blair, it has to do with the rapid dispossession of the people from their birthright and their nation being replaced by a state. It’s an obvious game.
Demand for housing accelerated by infinity migration
Look around you at other countries – step one people say it isn’t eroding culture and heritage, step two is inclusivity means not mentioning any idea of national birthright or cultural dominance – Irish culture will then be selectively treated as equivalent to minority culture, which leads to selective plasticity of values. The purpose of this is to remove the threat of the masses to the takeover by capital, where the people will find their position changed from nationals used to the govt pursuing their interests into powerless customers in a state that pursues the property ownership rights of wealth as paramount. Just look at the UK as an example. It has nothing to do with the disgusting and misleading term “anti-immigrant”, coined by Tony Blair, it has to do with the rapid dispossession of the people from their birthright and their nation being replaced by a state. It’s an obvious game.
Demand for housing accelerated by infinity migration
In what way do you conflate threats to burn immigrants https://www.thejournal.ie/far-right-money-making-5986480-Feb2023/ with a “fight against imperialism”?
No one is eroding Irish culture.. that is not the issue. The real issue is housing.. there is a serious (govt contrived) housing shortage but these idiots are blaming migrants instead. To be fair, many (most?) actually do blame the govt as well. Of course the fault lies squarely with the govt and the poor migrants merely exacerbate the problem, aided and abetted by the usual Farage types. Yep, we have them in Ireland as well.
I am always puzzled by the word “populist” being some kind of Nazi-style problem. It does contain the word “Popular” – have I missed something?
Of course the two should not be equated, but Hitler/Nazism was populism writ large. He was hugely popular; antagonistic to the establishment and elites (law, politics, science, military); rose on the promise a brave new world, restored to it’s greatness and cleansed of foolishness & corruption, whilst being a major proponent of fashionable half baked theories (eugenics). And despite all the success, destined to fail.
Yes a progressive movement.
Yes a progressive movement.
Big difference. Usually populist appeals not to the population as a whole but mainly to the great unwashed who, having little to lose and a great deal of anger and resentment to vent will make their voices heard well beyond their numbers; while the bulk of the population will, sadly, remain quiet.
Of course the two should not be equated, but Hitler/Nazism was populism writ large. He was hugely popular; antagonistic to the establishment and elites (law, politics, science, military); rose on the promise a brave new world, restored to it’s greatness and cleansed of foolishness & corruption, whilst being a major proponent of fashionable half baked theories (eugenics). And despite all the success, destined to fail.
Big difference. Usually populist appeals not to the population as a whole but mainly to the great unwashed who, having little to lose and a great deal of anger and resentment to vent will make their voices heard well beyond their numbers; while the bulk of the population will, sadly, remain quiet.
Because it just is. As JK Rowling is Transphobic and there are calls to cancel her. Good discussion this. I recommend “The British Dream” by David Goodhart on this subject.
Well, in the case of the anti-immigration protests currently happening in Ireland, that’s pretty straightforward – the parties concerned describe themselves as right wing, and, for those of you still clinging to the delusion that these are salt of the earth types, some of them carry swastikas:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-41063300.html
Ringleaders on the ground include e.g. Philip Dwyer, a former candidate for the far-right (and currently electorally minuscule) National Party. Think an Irish version of a cross between the BNP and UKIP. Unfortunately, they see that Putin’s displacement of Ukrainian refugees gives them a chance to gain a foothold.
Frank . In my view the article you linked has all the tropes of the authoritarian globalist progressive . It also carries some of the twisted hypocrisy of contemporary woke journalists. While they believe that women of the correct class Should be affirmed in cases of sexual assault its different for working class women and girls. They are not to be believed. That is clear in the ongoing rape and sexual trafficking of working class vulnerable women in the UK. SF like all authoritarian progressives will reap the whirlwind. As one who considers themselves rooted in the left i am fed up seeing working class people crushed by the wheels of middle class empathy and virtue signalling.
Hahahaha. Posting that article as a credible source..
That reports mentions one person with a swastika.
One.
Just like the Canadian truckers has precisely one person with a swastika hanging around.
Strangely enough, a long stream of terrorists and it’s always “not every muslim is a terrorist, you bigot”
Or an entire Azov battalion, parades commemorating Bandera, etc but we are supposed to give Ukraine a free pass.
And incidentally, the original German Swastika wielders were left wing, not right wing. The clue is in the expansion of “zi”
Babble
Frank . In my view the article you linked has all the tropes of the authoritarian globalist progressive . It also carries some of the twisted hypocrisy of contemporary woke journalists. While they believe that women of the correct class Should be affirmed in cases of sexual assault its different for working class women and girls. They are not to be believed. That is clear in the ongoing rape and sexual trafficking of working class vulnerable women in the UK. SF like all authoritarian progressives will reap the whirlwind. As one who considers themselves rooted in the left i am fed up seeing working class people crushed by the wheels of middle class empathy and virtue signalling.
Hahahaha. Posting that article as a credible source..
That reports mentions one person with a swastika.
One.
Just like the Canadian truckers has precisely one person with a swastika hanging around.
Strangely enough, a long stream of terrorists and it’s always “not every muslim is a terrorist, you bigot”
Or an entire Azov battalion, parades commemorating Bandera, etc but we are supposed to give Ukraine a free pass.
And incidentally, the original German Swastika wielders were left wing, not right wing. The clue is in the expansion of “zi”
Babble
Hi, I’ve seen this come up a few times to my article and let me address that. I’m using a neutral / clinical definition of “right-wing populism”, not the hyperbolic pejorative of “far right”. This means I’m objectively describing attitudes into a conventional rubric, not calling anyone mean names.
For instance, if we review Pew Research Center’s Appendix: Classifying European political parties, what we see is an attempt to categorize different attitudes into a definition of “right-wing populism”. These attitudes include: “1) support for traditional social values, 2) opposition to liberal lifestyles, 3) promotion of nationalism, 4) favorable toward tough law and order, 5) favorable toward assimilation for immigrants and asylum seekers, 6) support for restrictive immigration policies, 7) opposition to more rights for ethnic minorities, 8) support for religious principles in politics and 9) support for rural interests.”
It is not unreasonable to match the anti-migrant protests’ (or IFP’s) attitudes with those of this classification, in a neutral fashion. The protests have noted that they oppose higher amounts of immigration, they want more law and order on crime and immigration checks, they are Irish nationalists, and very pro-family. While not a 100% match, it’s fair to call this movement “right-wing populist” especially in relativity to Irish politics in general.
Well done for taking commenters seriously and explaining at an academic political science level why you went with the term Right Wing Populist, that’s helpful to understand. I think that within the realm of polemics…it is a far more vexatious phrase, especially as many in the Irish anti-migrant protests look and indeed even in that Pew definition, are a lot closer to a UK Blue Labour standpoint. Whilst you are technically/clinically correct, that definition, is nevertheless somewhat of a distortion. I think it’s fair to say that political science has never really got it’s head around the deviancy which is working class conservatism. Thanks for the highly informative article!
Thanks. Yes I realize the nuances to these word choices. I still think it is apt and it gets at even more so that symbolic feeling occurring that resembles other countries’ pivots to what we call “right-wing populism”.
I even agree “right-wing populism” doesn’t even convey the economic leftist overlap that occur but perhaps are summed up by “populism”. The labour overlap is real. In general, I think right-wing populism is summed up by: socially right and economically left. And left as more so anti-free for all capitalism rather than a marxist thing. Better to call that other left as “protectionist”.
An interesting article and some informative comments, most of which avoided descending into the usual ‘yah-boo’ nonsense of many BTL refuges.
Thanks. Yes I realize the nuances to these word choices. I still think it is apt and it gets at even more so that symbolic feeling occurring that resembles other countries’ pivots to what we call “right-wing populism”.
I even agree “right-wing populism” doesn’t even convey the economic leftist overlap that occur but perhaps are summed up by “populism”. The labour overlap is real. In general, I think right-wing populism is summed up by: socially right and economically left. And left as more so anti-free for all capitalism rather than a marxist thing. Better to call that other left as “protectionist”.
An interesting article and some informative comments, most of which avoided descending into the usual ‘yah-boo’ nonsense of many BTL refuges.
As a grand old Bennite let me tell you that this game is over. You are indeed using the term “right-wing” pejoratively. You might fool yourself, but you don’t fool me .
I’m not, I don’t see anything morally wrong with calling something right-wing.
Right wing is a meaningless anachronistic term that has a dog whistle left-labelled opposition who blindly regard themselves as morally superior – this rather evil supremacism is at least dismissive and at worst dangerous, as well as strongly undemocratic
Right wing populism isn’t a very good envelope for your 9 attitudes listed. I can relate to some but not others.
Right wing is a meaningless anachronistic term that has a dog whistle left-labelled opposition who blindly regard themselves as morally superior – this rather evil supremacism is at least dismissive and at worst dangerous, as well as strongly undemocratic
Right wing populism isn’t a very good envelope for your 9 attitudes listed. I can relate to some but not others.
I’m not, I don’t see anything morally wrong with calling something right-wing.
It may be worth noting also that what you have described above (leaving aside the migration aspect) is more or less the tenets and values of traditional Irish republicanism prior to its recent woke makeover. It’s no coincidence that many of the protesters are carrying posters that say ‘Concerned parents’ which is a code directed at squarely at Sinn Fein. Look up the origin of that phrase from inner city Dublin in the 1980s if it means nothing to you. It will also explain why these protests may be perceived as ‘existential’ for Sinn Fein in terms of where they decide to go from here.
Yes true. “Concerned parents against drugs” The commies/stickies infected Scum Fein and flooded inner city Dublin with drugs.
It is inevitable that a political party of protest (Sinn Féin) will pick up a cohort of extreme protesters (anti everything, except perhaps dole) along the way. It is curious that, given the strong correlation between leftwing and protest these xenophobic racists tend to support the ‘wrong side’: that is until something like migration separates them out and they tesort to type: ie racist xenophobia. They do indeed belong rightly to the IFP (in reality more an Irish Fascist Party!) as there is no place for them in the well-heeled albeit right-wing party which is FG.. and certainly no room for them in internationalist Sinn Féin. I cannot see the IFP growing to the proportions of Nigel Farrage’s UKIP or whatever he calls his nasty outfit these days.
Typical snobbery from the low IQ midwit UCD Arts grad class, assumes everyone with a working class accent is on the dole….
Except 56 percent of people polled last weekend were of the view that Ireland had accepted too many people over the past 12 months. Another 14 per cent said ‘don’t know’. 30 per cent were on board with the current approach. I’m pretty sure that between 56 and 70 per cent of people are not ‘fascist’. They are however without political representation on this issue (and possibly others), suggesting that unless the mainstream (Sinn Fein or Fianna Fáil being the most likely) steps up and represents them, someone else most likely will.
Typical snobbery from the low IQ midwit UCD Arts grad class, assumes everyone with a working class accent is on the dole….
Except 56 percent of people polled last weekend were of the view that Ireland had accepted too many people over the past 12 months. Another 14 per cent said ‘don’t know’. 30 per cent were on board with the current approach. I’m pretty sure that between 56 and 70 per cent of people are not ‘fascist’. They are however without political representation on this issue (and possibly others), suggesting that unless the mainstream (Sinn Fein or Fianna Fáil being the most likely) steps up and represents them, someone else most likely will.
Yes true. “Concerned parents against drugs” The commies/stickies infected Scum Fein and flooded inner city Dublin with drugs.
It is inevitable that a political party of protest (Sinn Féin) will pick up a cohort of extreme protesters (anti everything, except perhaps dole) along the way. It is curious that, given the strong correlation between leftwing and protest these xenophobic racists tend to support the ‘wrong side’: that is until something like migration separates them out and they tesort to type: ie racist xenophobia. They do indeed belong rightly to the IFP (in reality more an Irish Fascist Party!) as there is no place for them in the well-heeled albeit right-wing party which is FG.. and certainly no room for them in internationalist Sinn Féin. I cannot see the IFP growing to the proportions of Nigel Farrage’s UKIP or whatever he calls his nasty outfit these days.
Well done for taking commenters seriously and explaining at an academic political science level why you went with the term Right Wing Populist, that’s helpful to understand. I think that within the realm of polemics…it is a far more vexatious phrase, especially as many in the Irish anti-migrant protests look and indeed even in that Pew definition, are a lot closer to a UK Blue Labour standpoint. Whilst you are technically/clinically correct, that definition, is nevertheless somewhat of a distortion. I think it’s fair to say that political science has never really got it’s head around the deviancy which is working class conservatism. Thanks for the highly informative article!
As a grand old Bennite let me tell you that this game is over. You are indeed using the term “right-wing” pejoratively. You might fool yourself, but you don’t fool me .
It may be worth noting also that what you have described above (leaving aside the migration aspect) is more or less the tenets and values of traditional Irish republicanism prior to its recent woke makeover. It’s no coincidence that many of the protesters are carrying posters that say ‘Concerned parents’ which is a code directed at squarely at Sinn Fein. Look up the origin of that phrase from inner city Dublin in the 1980s if it means nothing to you. It will also explain why these protests may be perceived as ‘existential’ for Sinn Fein in terms of where they decide to go from here.
In NZ strangely enough it was the opposite. The Ardern Labour government (which was never as far left as it was portrayed admittedly) was very anti immigration whereas the more right leaning opposition wants to open the floodgates of cheap labour for businesses. The median salary has risen by around a quarter in the five years Ardern was at the helm, so perhaps all those who say excess immigration suppresses wages were right after all
I guess it had more to do with Adhern’s support for poorly paid, minimum wage workers..
Yet when British voters raised the exact same concerns regarding immigration putting pressure on wages, housing and public services during the whole Brexit process, you amongst many others labelled them as right wing bigots. Why is it caring when Ardern does it, but not working class Britons?
Yet when British voters raised the exact same concerns regarding immigration putting pressure on wages, housing and public services during the whole Brexit process, you amongst many others labelled them as right wing bigots. Why is it caring when Ardern does it, but not working class Britons?
I guess it had more to do with Adhern’s support for poorly paid, minimum wage workers..
Especially given that large scale immigration of lower skilled immigrants primarily affects working class people.
It’s almost as if modern day “leftists” couldn’t care less or have any affinity for their historical working class base.
Those two things are rather different don’t you think? You chuck ’em into the same pot as if they were one and the same!
That’s why terms like left and right don’t mean much in the modern context. I don’t care if Labour have cut ties with their historical roots. I just want a party to fight back against the very worst abuses and excesses committed by those in the pursuit of profit. It may well be that the current incarnation is imperfect, but the voting choice is binary.
They don’t
Those two things are rather different don’t you think? You chuck ’em into the same pot as if they were one and the same!
That’s why terms like left and right don’t mean much in the modern context. I don’t care if Labour have cut ties with their historical roots. I just want a party to fight back against the very worst abuses and excesses committed by those in the pursuit of profit. It may well be that the current incarnation is imperfect, but the voting choice is binary.
They don’t
One reason is simply that it IS right-wing! The great unwashed and the poorly educated.. these types rant and rave at everything. Normally they support SF (who do the same) but on this one occasion, SF doesn’t fit the bill because it takes the usual leftwing view which is supportive of asylum seekers and refugees.
No it isn’t. And exclamation marks do not make it so. Those who support importing economic migrants, whatever they call them, are simply looking for cheap workers. So let’s not play the game of my morals are better than youra
No it isn’t. And exclamation marks do not make it so. Those who support importing economic migrants, whatever they call them, are simply looking for cheap workers. So let’s not play the game of my morals are better than youra
Free Tibet! always comes to mind. It’s class war, nothing else. Are the Tibetans wicked for wanting to preserve their nation-based culture and heritage?
I am equally confused. Meanwhile, citizens of other countries are praised and sympathised with in the fight against imperialism and the erosion of their cultures.
I am always puzzled by the word “populist” being some kind of Nazi-style problem. It does contain the word “Popular” – have I missed something?
Because it just is. As JK Rowling is Transphobic and there are calls to cancel her. Good discussion this. I recommend “The British Dream” by David Goodhart on this subject.
Well, in the case of the anti-immigration protests currently happening in Ireland, that’s pretty straightforward – the parties concerned describe themselves as right wing, and, for those of you still clinging to the delusion that these are salt of the earth types, some of them carry swastikas:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-41063300.html
Ringleaders on the ground include e.g. Philip Dwyer, a former candidate for the far-right (and currently electorally minuscule) National Party. Think an Irish version of a cross between the BNP and UKIP. Unfortunately, they see that Putin’s displacement of Ukrainian refugees gives them a chance to gain a foothold.
Hi, I’ve seen this come up a few times to my article and let me address that. I’m using a neutral / clinical definition of “right-wing populism”, not the hyperbolic pejorative of “far right”. This means I’m objectively describing attitudes into a conventional rubric, not calling anyone mean names.
For instance, if we review Pew Research Center’s Appendix: Classifying European political parties, what we see is an attempt to categorize different attitudes into a definition of “right-wing populism”. These attitudes include: “1) support for traditional social values, 2) opposition to liberal lifestyles, 3) promotion of nationalism, 4) favorable toward tough law and order, 5) favorable toward assimilation for immigrants and asylum seekers, 6) support for restrictive immigration policies, 7) opposition to more rights for ethnic minorities, 8) support for religious principles in politics and 9) support for rural interests.”
It is not unreasonable to match the anti-migrant protests’ (or IFP’s) attitudes with those of this classification, in a neutral fashion. The protests have noted that they oppose higher amounts of immigration, they want more law and order on crime and immigration checks, they are Irish nationalists, and very pro-family. While not a 100% match, it’s fair to call this movement “right-wing populist” especially in relativity to Irish politics in general.
In NZ strangely enough it was the opposite. The Ardern Labour government (which was never as far left as it was portrayed admittedly) was very anti immigration whereas the more right leaning opposition wants to open the floodgates of cheap labour for businesses. The median salary has risen by around a quarter in the five years Ardern was at the helm, so perhaps all those who say excess immigration suppresses wages were right after all
Especially given that large scale immigration of lower skilled immigrants primarily affects working class people.
It’s almost as if modern day “leftists” couldn’t care less or have any affinity for their historical working class base.
One reason is simply that it IS right-wing! The great unwashed and the poorly educated.. these types rant and rave at everything. Normally they support SF (who do the same) but on this one occasion, SF doesn’t fit the bill because it takes the usual leftwing view which is supportive of asylum seekers and refugees.
Free Tibet! always comes to mind. It’s class war, nothing else. Are the Tibetans wicked for wanting to preserve their nation-based culture and heritage?
I am curious to know why an objection to large scale immigration is automatically classified as populist and right-wing. Perhaps people simply object to having their societies disrupted for no good reason.
My impression is that most people have no issue at all with Ukranians, but have very grave reservations about overwhelmingly male asylum seekers from elsewhere – including many countries that have no conflict – Albania, Pakistan and Georgia being examples. Somalian clan violence has no place in Ireland.
This is in addition to high levels of immigration in recent decades, much of it from Nigeria, which has affected the cohesion of old working class communities – particularly in Dublin. Ireland now is not the same place that many grew up in.
Arrivals can apply for citizenship after 5 years, so are basically here permanently. Deportations are almost unknown.
People should not have to justify their opposition to something they are highly uncomfortable with, but of course they are maligned across the entire media spectrum as racist and influenced by right-wing propaganda. Nothing could be further from the truth – the Irish are among the most welcoming people I have met anywhere.
But they have had enough.
You would have thought THEY had learnt their lesson after 1169/70*………but obviously not.
(* Arrival of Raymond le Gros and chums.)
There have been a few changes since then Charlie.. the world has moved on.. high time you did!
There have been a few changes since then Charlie.. the world has moved on.. high time you did!
Well summed up harry. There are differences between Ukrainians who want to be at home and Albanians who are fleeing nothing except a collapsed state economically which is their own fault. Parts of East London are run by Albanian criminals, Barking and Romford among the foremost.
I very much agree with you about the difference of migrants here in Sweden. The Ukrainian women and children are housed in private families and they want and find work almost immediately and kids pick up on school very easily. They assimilate very easy in contrast to migrants from middle East or Africa.
True. However I don’t blame an individual for leaving their home and seeking a better life. It’s the political /media establishment in Ireland who open their legs like a clapped out old w***e to anyone who fancies a ride.
You would have thought THEY had learnt their lesson after 1169/70*………but obviously not.
(* Arrival of Raymond le Gros and chums.)
Well summed up harry. There are differences between Ukrainians who want to be at home and Albanians who are fleeing nothing except a collapsed state economically which is their own fault. Parts of East London are run by Albanian criminals, Barking and Romford among the foremost.
I very much agree with you about the difference of migrants here in Sweden. The Ukrainian women and children are housed in private families and they want and find work almost immediately and kids pick up on school very easily. They assimilate very easy in contrast to migrants from middle East or Africa.
True. However I don’t blame an individual for leaving their home and seeking a better life. It’s the political /media establishment in Ireland who open their legs like a clapped out old w***e to anyone who fancies a ride.
My impression is that most people have no issue at all with Ukranians, but have very grave reservations about overwhelmingly male asylum seekers from elsewhere – including many countries that have no conflict – Albania, Pakistan and Georgia being examples. Somalian clan violence has no place in Ireland.
This is in addition to high levels of immigration in recent decades, much of it from Nigeria, which has affected the cohesion of old working class communities – particularly in Dublin. Ireland now is not the same place that many grew up in.
Arrivals can apply for citizenship after 5 years, so are basically here permanently. Deportations are almost unknown.
People should not have to justify their opposition to something they are highly uncomfortable with, but of course they are maligned across the entire media spectrum as racist and influenced by right-wing propaganda. Nothing could be further from the truth – the Irish are among the most welcoming people I have met anywhere.
But they have had enough.
Ireland has has a serious housing and homeless problem for years, Fianna Gael have been telling voters nothing could be done, then over night thousands of Ukrainians arrive, with no limit on the numbers, and its amazing, they get housed instantly
So many people are arriving now that it won’t be long before the Irish are a minority in our own country. Ireland is full. Dún an doras
It will be interesting to see how many of the Irish now complaining about immigrants were the same ones quick to demonise British voters as racist for complaining about their much more substantial immigration numbers, both legal and illegal
How would they be the same ones, if you think your own country should have sane immigration policies, why would you insult people in the UK who want the same
Nimbyism is certainly a factor in these debates surrounding the housing of immigrants.
The residents of Martha’s Vineyard were happy to criticise Texan border towns for their unwelcoming attitude, yet when given the opportunity to welcome migrants into their own community, their “open arms” policy became “closed door” pretty quickly
I would give Ron de Santis the Nobel Peace Prize for that.
Amen to that.
Ron must have read Rules for Radicals
Make your enemy live up to it own book of rules
Amen to that.
Ron must have read Rules for Radicals
Make your enemy live up to it own book of rules
Exactly!
You made that up.
https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/illegal-immigrants-get-the-boot-after-one-day-on-marthas-vineyard/
Made it up? Really?
Martha’s Vineyard is a proud “sanctuary” jurisdiction in a self-proclaimed “sanctuary” state, ie one which boasts they would never inform on illegal migrants to immigration authorities.
Yet within hours of a mere 50 migrants landing on their shores, this “sanctuary” declared an humanitarian crisis and did whatever they could to rid themselves of the burden.
50 migrants, in a place where 65% of homes sit vacant, awaiting their uber-wealthy owners on vacation, could not find anywhere to shelter these migrants?
Meanwhile the heavily Democrat-leaning residents decry the “callousness” of border towns for not welcoming migrants. El Paso receives between 1200 and 1300 every day.
‘Virtue Signalling’, as an expression, might be overused and hackneyed but it perfectly describes the practice of poseurs promoting their moral correctness whilst failing to live up to their own pronouncements.
Wealthy denizens of Democrat controlled cities wish to advertise their moral superiority without it costing them anything, either in monetary terms, or effort or discomfort. The moment it does, they cry foul and wish to rid themselves of the problem.
De Santis showed them up.
Which part of that is made up? Or is it merely that you – like the MV residents – don’t like facing up to uncomfortable truths?
https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/illegal-immigrants-get-the-boot-after-one-day-on-marthas-vineyard/
Made it up? Really?
Martha’s Vineyard is a proud “sanctuary” jurisdiction in a self-proclaimed “sanctuary” state, ie one which boasts they would never inform on illegal migrants to immigration authorities.
Yet within hours of a mere 50 migrants landing on their shores, this “sanctuary” declared an humanitarian crisis and did whatever they could to rid themselves of the burden.
50 migrants, in a place where 65% of homes sit vacant, awaiting their uber-wealthy owners on vacation, could not find anywhere to shelter these migrants?
Meanwhile the heavily Democrat-leaning residents decry the “callousness” of border towns for not welcoming migrants. El Paso receives between 1200 and 1300 every day.
‘Virtue Signalling’, as an expression, might be overused and hackneyed but it perfectly describes the practice of poseurs promoting their moral correctness whilst failing to live up to their own pronouncements.
Wealthy denizens of Democrat controlled cities wish to advertise their moral superiority without it costing them anything, either in monetary terms, or effort or discomfort. The moment it does, they cry foul and wish to rid themselves of the problem.
De Santis showed them up.
Which part of that is made up? Or is it merely that you – like the MV residents – don’t like facing up to uncomfortable truths?
I would give Ron de Santis the Nobel Peace Prize for that.
Exactly!
You made that up.
Ignorance could be a factor. It’s easy to criticise the opinions of those negatively affected by immigration, same way the middle classes look down on the working class in Britain. However your opinions can soon change when it affects you personally
Indeed I have found it to be so, sadly. They finally get a chance to put their money where their mouth is and it’s “totally different” then!
Indeed I have found it to be so, sadly. They finally get a chance to put their money where their mouth is and it’s “totally different” then!
Nimbyism is certainly a factor in these debates surrounding the housing of immigrants.
The residents of Martha’s Vineyard were happy to criticise Texan border towns for their unwelcoming attitude, yet when given the opportunity to welcome migrants into their own community, their “open arms” policy became “closed door” pretty quickly
Ignorance could be a factor. It’s easy to criticise the opinions of those negatively affected by immigration, same way the middle classes look down on the working class in Britain. However your opinions can soon change when it affects you personally
In fairness, the anti-Brexit folk would also be of an open-borders tendency. They are really just the smug middle-class establishment. For years now, their representative newspaper columnists have been churning out the same opinion piece week after week, having a good old laugh at the Brexiteers. Brexit has been a nice earner for these folk. The same columnists have just changed the ribbon on their typewriters and are now churning out the same opinion piece, week after week, predicting that Ireland is being taken over by the “far roysh”.
Whats a type-writer?
It’s like a morse telegraph but more new fangled and with lots more buttons
It’s like a morse telegraph but more new fangled and with lots more buttons
Fair enough, the perception coming out of Ireland was that most of the country believed that Brexit was a racist idea due to immigration. Perhaps that was skewed by the media as you say
Brexit for the bulk of Irish commentators was, and is, an economic fiasco. The UK migrant issue is seen by most of us as a mere distraction, akin to the Jewish issue in 1930s Germany.. propaganda to find suitable scapegoats while the economy tanks.
In fairness, we have all spent the past seven years watching with amusement as the omnishambles of Brexit unfolds. But I would suggest that conflating Brexit and racism has been a minority sport – mostly played by the columnists at the Irish Times.
Indeed, the only thing funnier than the Honorable Memmber for the 17th Century and his Ministry of Brexit Opportunities, has been the Irish commentariat’s overwrought reaction to same, this being a marvellous case in point:
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-brexit-chaos-rooted-in-british-lack-of-self-examination-1.3702089
Brexit for the bulk of Irish commentators was, and is, an economic fiasco. The UK migrant issue is seen by most of us as a mere distraction, akin to the Jewish issue in 1930s Germany.. propaganda to find suitable scapegoats while the economy tanks.
In fairness, we have all spent the past seven years watching with amusement as the omnishambles of Brexit unfolds. But I would suggest that conflating Brexit and racism has been a minority sport – mostly played by the columnists at the Irish Times.
Indeed, the only thing funnier than the Honorable Memmber for the 17th Century and his Ministry of Brexit Opportunities, has been the Irish commentariat’s overwrought reaction to same, this being a marvellous case in point:
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-brexit-chaos-rooted-in-british-lack-of-self-examination-1.3702089
Just take a look at the opinion section of the failing irish times today. The number of articles about the so called “far right”
Whats a type-writer?
Fair enough, the perception coming out of Ireland was that most of the country believed that Brexit was a racist idea due to immigration. Perhaps that was skewed by the media as you say
Just take a look at the opinion section of the failing irish times today. The number of articles about the so called “far right”
How do you know there are any? You sound like a lefty of the extreme variety.
In what way do you assume I’m a lefty? What in that comment gives you any impression of my political leanings? Or was it simply an attempt at misdirection on your part to avoid answering my question in regards to Irish hypocrisy?
In what way do you assume I’m a lefty? What in that comment gives you any impression of my political leanings? Or was it simply an attempt at misdirection on your part to avoid answering my question in regards to Irish hypocrisy?
Very, very few Irish are complaining. We have a minority of racist loser ball-bags, same as anywhere, but they do not speak for the vast majority of Irish people. Not one of these far-right groups has a single person elected. According to the police however, they are in active collaboration with US and British right-wing agitators. Scum finds its own level.
Funnily enough I know a few boys who went home to Ireland for Christmas, and they said all their families were complaining about the asylum seekers so perhaps it’s more prevalent outside of your nice middle class circles than you realise?
Also Britain hasn’t elected any far right MPs. They haven’t elected the political wings of any terrorist groups either, unlike in Ireland where they’re the largest party
Fabulous! Here in Derry we vote for the SDLP – Unionists et al-just to keep the murderers out.
Fabulous! Here in Derry we vote for the SDLP – Unionists et al-just to keep the murderers out.
Funnily enough I know a few boys who went home to Ireland for Christmas, and they said all their families were complaining about the asylum seekers so perhaps it’s more prevalent outside of your nice middle class circles than you realise?
Also Britain hasn’t elected any far right MPs. They haven’t elected the political wings of any terrorist groups either, unlike in Ireland where they’re the largest party
I venture to say a totally different cohort. Think of BNP and their Irish equivalent, ie this new, tiny, unrepresentative IFP and you’ll get the gist of it.
How would they be the same ones, if you think your own country should have sane immigration policies, why would you insult people in the UK who want the same
In fairness, the anti-Brexit folk would also be of an open-borders tendency. They are really just the smug middle-class establishment. For years now, their representative newspaper columnists have been churning out the same opinion piece week after week, having a good old laugh at the Brexiteers. Brexit has been a nice earner for these folk. The same columnists have just changed the ribbon on their typewriters and are now churning out the same opinion piece, week after week, predicting that Ireland is being taken over by the “far roysh”.
How do you know there are any? You sound like a lefty of the extreme variety.
Very, very few Irish are complaining. We have a minority of racist loser ball-bags, same as anywhere, but they do not speak for the vast majority of Irish people. Not one of these far-right groups has a single person elected. According to the police however, they are in active collaboration with US and British right-wing agitators. Scum finds its own level.
I venture to say a totally different cohort. Think of BNP and their Irish equivalent, ie this new, tiny, unrepresentative IFP and you’ll get the gist of it.
I sympathise but you did take the Yankee dollar and it does come with strings
I took nothing and I voted for none of this
Same as the rest of us in the UK then
Same as the rest of us in the UK then
I took nothing and I voted for none of this
stay classy Mr Walsh
It will be interesting to see how many of the Irish now complaining about immigrants were the same ones quick to demonise British voters as racist for complaining about their much more substantial immigration numbers, both legal and illegal
I sympathise but you did take the Yankee dollar and it does come with strings
stay classy Mr Walsh
Ireland has has a serious housing and homeless problem for years, Fianna Gael have been telling voters nothing could be done, then over night thousands of Ukrainians arrive, with no limit on the numbers, and its amazing, they get housed instantly
So many people are arriving now that it won’t be long before the Irish are a minority in our own country. Ireland is full. Dún an doras
Always and everywhere the problem is uncontrolled, mass immigration overwhelming the capacity of societies to house its young people, heal its sick, teach its children and supply its citizens with public goods.
As Milton Friedman put it: you can have open borders or you can have a welfare state.
In the last decade this issue has driven the outcome of elections in Britain, France, Germany, the USA, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria, Italy, Australia, Hungary and Poland. And now Ireland will be added to the list.
And yet the politicians don’t address it.
Ireland’s population is considerably smaller than it was 200 years ago so it’s hardly a case of the society being overwhelmed.
I’m not sure that argument stacks up. The people of Ireland in the 1800s didn’t expect anything like the standard of living that today’s citizens do. A large and rapid increase in demand for a country’s limited supply of housing stock, public services and infrastructure only has one outcome.
There was no Social Assistance in Ireland in 1823, no state pensions, no council housing, no state education, no power stations or transmission lines, very few roads, no railways, no centralised system for providing water or removing waste, no police or hospitals (in the modern sense), doctors were extremely expensive and not used by the common people.
In short, as I quote above – you can have open borders or you can have a welfare state
Limited housing stock? 75 ‘ghost estates’ still in place across Ireland – Francis Brophy Accountants
Limited housing stock? 75 ‘ghost estates’ still in place across Ireland – Francis Brophy Accountants
The great hunger and emigration soon sorted that problem out.
Not really
Officially Ireland has a population of 5.033 million, Northern Ireland has a population of 1.885 million, add them together and the island has just under 7 million. if you believe the official numbers
The pre famine population was about 8.5 million
Right now the indigenous Irish birth rate has collapsed, while the establishment have lost their minds regarding immigration numbers, they want to push down wages while pushing up rents and house prices, Kuntz
Very true; in fact Ireland being underpopulated is a serious economic problem. Ireland’s (now settled) migrant population has grown to 15% from almost nil in the last 25 years and our prosperity has grown with it!
Generally migrants assimilate better being (until now) far more welcome than in the UK. 90% of Ukrainians will probably return home when NATO permits a negotiated settlement as most will have family there and their own country will have desperate need of them.
I’m not sure that argument stacks up. The people of Ireland in the 1800s didn’t expect anything like the standard of living that today’s citizens do. A large and rapid increase in demand for a country’s limited supply of housing stock, public services and infrastructure only has one outcome.
There was no Social Assistance in Ireland in 1823, no state pensions, no council housing, no state education, no power stations or transmission lines, very few roads, no railways, no centralised system for providing water or removing waste, no police or hospitals (in the modern sense), doctors were extremely expensive and not used by the common people.
In short, as I quote above – you can have open borders or you can have a welfare state
The great hunger and emigration soon sorted that problem out.
Not really
Officially Ireland has a population of 5.033 million, Northern Ireland has a population of 1.885 million, add them together and the island has just under 7 million. if you believe the official numbers
The pre famine population was about 8.5 million
Right now the indigenous Irish birth rate has collapsed, while the establishment have lost their minds regarding immigration numbers, they want to push down wages while pushing up rents and house prices, Kuntz
Very true; in fact Ireland being underpopulated is a serious economic problem. Ireland’s (now settled) migrant population has grown to 15% from almost nil in the last 25 years and our prosperity has grown with it!
Generally migrants assimilate better being (until now) far more welcome than in the UK. 90% of Ukrainians will probably return home when NATO permits a negotiated settlement as most will have family there and their own country will have desperate need of them.
I believe a welfare system needs controlled borders.
Every country needs to control their borders in the manner that best serves its citizens, but an adequate welfare system does need to be adequately staffed – from the bottom to the top.
It is the control of UK borders that has left the NHS short of 70,000 nurses and a huge number of doctors, porters, cooks, cleaners etc. You seem to assume young, fit, keen migrants simply USE services when in reality they STAFF the services that are currently in dire need of additional people, and being young, fit and healthy use the services far less than say older, frail indigenous people!
Every country needs to control their borders in the manner that best serves its citizens, but an adequate welfare system does need to be adequately staffed – from the bottom to the top.
It is the control of UK borders that has left the NHS short of 70,000 nurses and a huge number of doctors, porters, cooks, cleaners etc. You seem to assume young, fit, keen migrants simply USE services when in reality they STAFF the services that are currently in dire need of additional people, and being young, fit and healthy use the services far less than say older, frail indigenous people!
I think the immigration problem is more in the realm of social politics rather than economics. In the Nordic countries, immigration has led to a collapse in confidence in the welfare system – people are happy to pay taxes to support ‘their people’, not so much to support incomers. The social contract is under a lot of stress there, as they’ve been very homogenous until recently. Immigrants are less of a drain upon the welfare state than natives, do pay taxes, and often do jobs the natives won’t (often in agriculture and care, helping to keep down the costs of food, care) – though they may well send much back to the home country. Some interesting stats from the UK:
in the last 40 years, the population has gone from 56 to 67 million – an increase of 20%, whilst Dept of Health and Care spending has gone up 400% – in real terms, over the same period.
You are probably right about the damage immigration does to the social contract. But I think you are wrong to underplay the economic effect of mass migration. Young, fit, cheap immigrants become couples competing for too few houses, parents needing school places, low paid workers needing Universal Credit and eventually old people with health problems and needed nursing homes. It is an endless cycle – import people to deal with the jobs “Brits don’t want to do” and then import more people to look after the previous wave.
You are probably right about the damage immigration does to the social contract. But I think you are wrong to underplay the economic effect of mass migration. Young, fit, cheap immigrants become couples competing for too few houses, parents needing school places, low paid workers needing Universal Credit and eventually old people with health problems and needed nursing homes. It is an endless cycle – import people to deal with the jobs “Brits don’t want to do” and then import more people to look after the previous wave.
Take a look at Germany’s migration figures and excess mortality, then compare with the UK. Unfortunately hysteria and not data tends to drive the outcome of elections.
I don’t understand what point you are making. Are Germany’s migration figures higher or lower than the UK? What are excess mortality figures and are they higher or lower in Germany? What are you suggesting is the link between the two?
I don’t understand what point you are making. Are Germany’s migration figures higher or lower than the UK? What are excess mortality figures and are they higher or lower in Germany? What are you suggesting is the link between the two?
Migration is not new. 80 million people around the world call themselves Irish.. we have a mere 5¼ million at home! I guess it’s payback time?
Ireland’s population is considerably smaller than it was 200 years ago so it’s hardly a case of the society being overwhelmed.
I believe a welfare system needs controlled borders.
I think the immigration problem is more in the realm of social politics rather than economics. In the Nordic countries, immigration has led to a collapse in confidence in the welfare system – people are happy to pay taxes to support ‘their people’, not so much to support incomers. The social contract is under a lot of stress there, as they’ve been very homogenous until recently. Immigrants are less of a drain upon the welfare state than natives, do pay taxes, and often do jobs the natives won’t (often in agriculture and care, helping to keep down the costs of food, care) – though they may well send much back to the home country. Some interesting stats from the UK:
in the last 40 years, the population has gone from 56 to 67 million – an increase of 20%, whilst Dept of Health and Care spending has gone up 400% – in real terms, over the same period.
Take a look at Germany’s migration figures and excess mortality, then compare with the UK. Unfortunately hysteria and not data tends to drive the outcome of elections.
Migration is not new. 80 million people around the world call themselves Irish.. we have a mere 5¼ million at home! I guess it’s payback time?
Always and everywhere the problem is uncontrolled, mass immigration overwhelming the capacity of societies to house its young people, heal its sick, teach its children and supply its citizens with public goods.
As Milton Friedman put it: you can have open borders or you can have a welfare state.
In the last decade this issue has driven the outcome of elections in Britain, France, Germany, the USA, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria, Italy, Australia, Hungary and Poland. And now Ireland will be added to the list.
And yet the politicians don’t address it.
Immigration will always be a problem so long as the people who profit from it are not the ones who pay for it. This is really what defines the leave/remain cleavage in the UK – but it’s the same in every European country and it will eventually destroy the EU (if their dodgy monetary shenanigans don’t do so first)
Dodgy monetary shenanigans are about to become more intense as The EU is now embarking on raising its own loans to sprinkle its own fairy dust over (only) compliant states – who will fall in line as they cant raise their own funds.
That is a really perceptive comment, because it holds true for a lot of issues – immigration, green policies, trans, even COVID restrictions.
There is a real moral hazard as those pushing for it, benefit financially or through woke “credit points” in their social circles, but do not have to pay for it.
Dodgy monetary shenanigans are about to become more intense as The EU is now embarking on raising its own loans to sprinkle its own fairy dust over (only) compliant states – who will fall in line as they cant raise their own funds.
That is a really perceptive comment, because it holds true for a lot of issues – immigration, green policies, trans, even COVID restrictions.
There is a real moral hazard as those pushing for it, benefit financially or through woke “credit points” in their social circles, but do not have to pay for it.
Immigration will always be a problem so long as the people who profit from it are not the ones who pay for it. This is really what defines the leave/remain cleavage in the UK – but it’s the same in every European country and it will eventually destroy the EU (if their dodgy monetary shenanigans don’t do so first)
One way to neutralize these protests might be to locate temporary accommodation for asylum seekers in leafy suburbs from whose vantage point well-to-do bienpensants call working class defenders of their own localities racists and far-rightists, and maybe to commandeer the Shelbourne and Cork’s Imperial Hotel for the increasing number of homeless asylum seekers. Michael McDowell said in the Irish Times this week that since we’re in a crisis there’s no time to consult people about the measures being taken to house refugees, in light of which his erstwhile Dail colleagues could presumably do all this by fiat.
One way to neutralize these protests might be to locate temporary accommodation for asylum seekers in leafy suburbs from whose vantage point well-to-do bienpensants call working class defenders of their own localities racists and far-rightists, and maybe to commandeer the Shelbourne and Cork’s Imperial Hotel for the increasing number of homeless asylum seekers. Michael McDowell said in the Irish Times this week that since we’re in a crisis there’s no time to consult people about the measures being taken to house refugees, in light of which his erstwhile Dail colleagues could presumably do all this by fiat.
Four hundred years ago the policy of ‘plantation’ settled lots of English and Scots protestants in Ireland. This was done by Elizabeth and by James VI & I. These settlers were topped up in the 17th century with some Huguenot French protestants.
How well have Catholic Ireland and Protestant Ireland integrated?
If you introduce lots of new Muslim settlers how long will it take to integrate them? As I’m English it’s none of my business, but I think the Irish might like to think this through before doing it.
Your reply is far too logical for Politicians. You may even be branded Racist. However correct it actually is!
Unfortunately for The Irish – immigration is not something over which they (as a so-called independent state) have any control.
IIRC Ireland until quite recently had a good few people prepared to take very direct (often hideous) action against perceived treachery. Did they run away?
To be fair, it wasn’t just the religious difference between Protestants and Catholics. Weren’t Catholics back then also denied certain rights, such as the right to purchase and own land or to hold public office? I’m genuinely not sure, but I seem to recall reading that.
Your reply is far too logical for Politicians. You may even be branded Racist. However correct it actually is!
Unfortunately for The Irish – immigration is not something over which they (as a so-called independent state) have any control.
IIRC Ireland until quite recently had a good few people prepared to take very direct (often hideous) action against perceived treachery. Did they run away?
To be fair, it wasn’t just the religious difference between Protestants and Catholics. Weren’t Catholics back then also denied certain rights, such as the right to purchase and own land or to hold public office? I’m genuinely not sure, but I seem to recall reading that.
Four hundred years ago the policy of ‘plantation’ settled lots of English and Scots protestants in Ireland. This was done by Elizabeth and by James VI & I. These settlers were topped up in the 17th century with some Huguenot French protestants.
How well have Catholic Ireland and Protestant Ireland integrated?
If you introduce lots of new Muslim settlers how long will it take to integrate them? As I’m English it’s none of my business, but I think the Irish might like to think this through before doing it.
Of course just as with United Kingdom and other countries the idea these Nations are physically full up doesn’t make sense. Ireland specifically had a much population before the Famine, although arguably then an unsustainable one.
However migrants of course aren’t of course distributed evenly over the entire country and indeed the countryside any more than they arrived on mass in David Cameron’s constituency in the 2010s. Instead they are concentrated in urban already stressed areas.
There are major issues of infrastructure and planning as well as cultural integration at play here which the establishments in almost all European countries have been utterly blithe and uninterested in for decades. Of course at the same time business rather likes a lot of low-skilled labour arriving on its doorstep.
Many liberals and left wingers think a ‘fair’ process is all important – let’s put aside the point as to whether it is actually ‘fair’ or whether various people have their caring thumbs pushed down hard on the scales! However I’d say OUTCOMES are more important. (Isn’t that supposed to be the case in public policy?!). Like, what population is sustainable, what proportion is it reasonable to think should be recent arrivals from very different cultures? What additional schools, hospitals, doctors, housing etc are needed to accommodate this growth and how do we fund that? How do we truly integrate migrants? The lack of attention or even interest amongst much of our political and intellectual class on these issues is staggering.
The population of GB (excluding Northern Ireland) was 12 million in 1822 and is 67 million in 2022.
Ireland is a very special case – 8 million in the 1841 census down to 7 million today (if you count the whole island).
Yes, what is ‘fair’ or ‘kind’ is often very different to what is real or true. So it depends on your priority of values. Unfortunately the former values often take priority now, loss of commitment to reality being a sure sign of collapse.
I reckon we are seeing white flight here in N Ireland judging by the increasing numbers of English people now settling here. Good schools, cheap housing, better quality of life, and an escape from cities which have become alien to their indigenous inhabitants are all reasons given when you talk to newcomers.
> The lack of attention or even interest amongst much of our political and intellectual class on these issues is staggering.
Not really, well among the political class anyway. It’s because they are attentive and interested far more in a completely different problem – How to garner more votes.
Whatever motives politicians and their “useful idiot” supporters claim, much of this obtinately maintained liberalism on immigration is solely in pursuit of gratitude votes, for the party in power when the immigrants arrived.
The population of GB (excluding Northern Ireland) was 12 million in 1822 and is 67 million in 2022.
Ireland is a very special case – 8 million in the 1841 census down to 7 million today (if you count the whole island).
Yes, what is ‘fair’ or ‘kind’ is often very different to what is real or true. So it depends on your priority of values. Unfortunately the former values often take priority now, loss of commitment to reality being a sure sign of collapse.
I reckon we are seeing white flight here in N Ireland judging by the increasing numbers of English people now settling here. Good schools, cheap housing, better quality of life, and an escape from cities which have become alien to their indigenous inhabitants are all reasons given when you talk to newcomers.
> The lack of attention or even interest amongst much of our political and intellectual class on these issues is staggering.
Not really, well among the political class anyway. It’s because they are attentive and interested far more in a completely different problem – How to garner more votes.
Whatever motives politicians and their “useful idiot” supporters claim, much of this obtinately maintained liberalism on immigration is solely in pursuit of gratitude votes, for the party in power when the immigrants arrived.
Of course just as with United Kingdom and other countries the idea these Nations are physically full up doesn’t make sense. Ireland specifically had a much population before the Famine, although arguably then an unsustainable one.
However migrants of course aren’t of course distributed evenly over the entire country and indeed the countryside any more than they arrived on mass in David Cameron’s constituency in the 2010s. Instead they are concentrated in urban already stressed areas.
There are major issues of infrastructure and planning as well as cultural integration at play here which the establishments in almost all European countries have been utterly blithe and uninterested in for decades. Of course at the same time business rather likes a lot of low-skilled labour arriving on its doorstep.
Many liberals and left wingers think a ‘fair’ process is all important – let’s put aside the point as to whether it is actually ‘fair’ or whether various people have their caring thumbs pushed down hard on the scales! However I’d say OUTCOMES are more important. (Isn’t that supposed to be the case in public policy?!). Like, what population is sustainable, what proportion is it reasonable to think should be recent arrivals from very different cultures? What additional schools, hospitals, doctors, housing etc are needed to accommodate this growth and how do we fund that? How do we truly integrate migrants? The lack of attention or even interest amongst much of our political and intellectual class on these issues is staggering.
By ‘selling’ itself to the EU. the Kerrygold Republic has brought this on itself, and I for one must admit I am enjoying some delicious, smug, schadenfreude!
No doubt Legions of Plastic Paddies will be outraged, but this was INEVITABLE!
Well I suppose a little schadenfreude is sometimes understandable and amusing. However this issue goes well beyond the EU as we see from post Brexit Britain.
The reality is that western establishments of all stripes had for decades by the care little about this issue of mass migration or actually wanted to see it increase.
The narrative of an appalling climate catastrophe affecting the ‘Global South’ and forcing millions of people on the move is complete nonsense. This is a political choice. For all our problems there is no serious doubt that the world is richer with, lower family size lower child mortality, and better health outcomes and education than it is ever been.
No, people are just much more aware of how others live elsewhere (or a distorted version of it) they may have existing contacts and family in the West, they are rich enough to pay people smugglers thousands of dollars! And they know they are very likely to be able to stay in practice.
In other words, mass migration is a deliberate western choice. Japan has none, Saudi has accepted precisely zero refugees from the Syrian conflict, despite their having so much in common culturally. China closes its borders when it wishes to. Of course the difference is probably that those countries are a lot tougher with those who have no right to be there. UNCHR or no UNCHR.
“For all our problems there is no serious doubt that the world is richer with, lower family size lower child mortality, and better health outcomes and education than it is ever been.“
Perfectly put Sir!
For all my admiration for the fabled ‘Pax Romana’, I must concede.
Talking of Rome it does rather remind of the situation in the fifth century when hordes of Teutonic and possibly Slavic thugs broke into, and completely destroyed the Western Roman Empire. An unmitigated catastrophe from which we have yet to fully recover.
Yet we seem hell bent’ on repeating this disaster, when all we have to say is NO!
No one has mentioned that Ireland has neither history nor experience of immigration of any volume- Why is it somehow ” wrong” for free people in their own country to, and let me use a much maligned word ” discriminate”? We discriminate every day… what we want to eat, which shop we choose to go to, whom we choose as friends or partners, what car we want, where we go on holiday? Are we therefore ” discriminating” in the new sense of the word against all the above whom we decide against? No, so why should this be any different?
Having said that, our governments are soon going to stop us discriminating in favour of non- electric cars, wood burners, cigarettes… where will it end unless we literally, as an electorate take a stand against our totalitarian politics?
Spot on. In fact Lord Jonathan Sumption had the audacity to draw attention to this problem during the great COVID Scamdemic of all too recent memory.
However I think ‘demos’ have now rumbled the Establishment, and it may not be so easy next time!
Spot on. In fact Lord Jonathan Sumption had the audacity to draw attention to this problem during the great COVID Scamdemic of all too recent memory.
However I think ‘demos’ have now rumbled the Establishment, and it may not be so easy next time!
No one has mentioned that Ireland has neither history nor experience of immigration of any volume- Why is it somehow ” wrong” for free people in their own country to, and let me use a much maligned word ” discriminate”? We discriminate every day… what we want to eat, which shop we choose to go to, whom we choose as friends or partners, what car we want, where we go on holiday? Are we therefore ” discriminating” in the new sense of the word against all the above whom we decide against? No, so why should this be any different?
Having said that, our governments are soon going to stop us discriminating in favour of non- electric cars, wood burners, cigarettes… where will it end unless we literally, as an electorate take a stand against our totalitarian politics?
Do not ignore the significance that the mobile phone plays in stimulating and assisting mas migration.
Exactly. Probably the most pernicious thing ever invented.
Exactly. Probably the most pernicious thing ever invented.
“For all our problems there is no serious doubt that the world is richer with, lower family size lower child mortality, and better health outcomes and education than it is ever been.“
Perfectly put Sir!
For all my admiration for the fabled ‘Pax Romana’, I must concede.
Talking of Rome it does rather remind of the situation in the fifth century when hordes of Teutonic and possibly Slavic thugs broke into, and completely destroyed the Western Roman Empire. An unmitigated catastrophe from which we have yet to fully recover.
Yet we seem hell bent’ on repeating this disaster, when all we have to say is NO!
Do not ignore the significance that the mobile phone plays in stimulating and assisting mas migration.
A great many plastic paddies, who have always supported Irish independence, support Ireland’s eventual exit from the EU on precisely that basis. I am one myself and I remain confused at the fact that most Irish people are quite happy to surrender their political independence to Brussels, yet are (rightly) proud of their nation’s history in which their ancestors recovered that same independence from Britain.
I am careful of course not to argue directly with Irish voters on this subject because although I’m an Irish citizen, I’m not an Irish resident or voter. The only point I will defend is that a nation cannot be both an EU member and independent: it is one or the other.
After a struggle lasting almost eight centuries to reclaim “the land the Saxons stole* it is curious how quickly the Irish people have jettisoned their hard fought independence.
I suppose it could be called “subverting the elite”, with copious amounts of EU largesse providing the trigger. (Something Ancient Rome was also rather good at.)
Perhaps this immigration farrago will provide the catalyst for a fight back, after all ‘they’ only have to look to England to see what the results of near unrestricted immigration may bring.
(* Not technically correct, but it makes a good song!)
It was actually the French speaking Normans. The Saxons have been dispossessed for 1000 years.
Did you by any chance happen to miss the “not technically correct” bit at the bottom?
However they certainly spoke French, but how actually Norman they were is open to question. It was after all about ten generations since Rollo and his ‘Viking’ thugs pitched up in the valley of the Seine.
Though it has to be said, Rollo did found a militarily very impressive polity (Normandy)
Though it has to be said, Rollo did found a militarily very impressive polity (Normandy)
Did you by any chance happen to miss the “not technically correct” bit at the bottom?
However they certainly spoke French, but how actually Norman they were is open to question. It was after all about ten generations since Rollo and his ‘Viking’ thugs pitched up in the valley of the Seine.
It’s a popular British viewpoint – what on earth is wrong with the Irish? “Such independent-minded folks, forever fighting to get rid of the British, and now look at them, good little EU members, meekly doing what they’re told.”
The British bewilderment at what they see as a logical inconsistency derives from a fundamental misunderstanding of modern Ireland.
The Brexiter Briton views Ireland through a prism of British patriotism, and assumes that a patriotic Irish person fundamentally must view the world as s/he does.
But we do not.
The vast majority of Irish people are not very nationalist at all.
Certainly, nowhere nearly as nationalistic as English people.
We of course like our little but of autonomy, but at heart we’re EU Federalists.
Until you understand that, you’ll forever be confused about modern Ireland.
Sure, in the early part of the last century, in the years immediately following independence, de Valera’s Ireland certainly was partial to the kind of “anti all outsiders” Romantic notion of independence that Brexiters would approve of.
But that was, er, in the last century. That Irish mindset no longer exists, apart from a few unelectable cranks in the Irish National Party.
Problem is, that kind of “splendid isolation” independence only works if you’re a major world power, and even then it isn’t ideal. Britain is just about big enough to get away with it.
Ireland has no hope of doing so. We’re simply too small, both in population and economic terms.
Once the far-sighted civil servant, T. K. Whitaker, shifted Irish economic policy towards globalisation and openness, the country started a path to economic recovery.
And that lesson has been well learned.
Ireland has two theoretical choices – economic reintegration with the UK, or continuing with the EU. Any purported third way – “freedom” from both the UK and the EU, as advocated by well-meaning Brexiters – is a policy cul de sac, a De Valera style delusion of Skibbereen Eagle proportions.
De facto, a vote to leave the EU is a vote to be once again dominated by the UK.
There is no other real-world choice available to us Charles.
Full independence, for a country as small as Ireland, is a chimaera.
The latent defect in the UK’s structure is its asymmetry.
Just as you can’t have a realistic “joint venture” between (1) Joe Bloggs & Nephew Keyboard Repair Services Limited and (2) Apple Inc; neither, long term, can you have a culturally functioning union between a mid-ranking global power such as England and 3 pipsqueak countries. Even when the English are well disposed towards the shrimps, which isn’t invariable might I add, the Celtic fringe countries will never amount to more than pimples on a large English backside. Culturally, England is always going to dominate. In the past, the Statutes of Kilkenny, which criminalised the Irish language and Irish sports; but sheer cultural mass alone will have a similar effect. In a few generations, any smaller country united with England runs the risk of ceasing to exist, even as a discrete anthropological entity. Just look at Wales. Fine, if your real goal is just to be English-lite, but you should at least be honest about that and admit that Unionism merely is a narrowly-English project, intent on eradicating cultural divergence from English mores. Inevitably, the middles classes in any culture seek to ape the socially dominant classes in the culturally dominant country. Which is why, even today, large swathes of South Dublin Irish people speak with strangulated faux Home Counties accents and read only right-wing English newspapers.
By contrast, inside the EU, there is much greater diversity of culture and more room for tiny countries to retain a distinct cultural identity. That is, while the gorillas of France, Germany, Spain and Italy etc are busy jostling each other, the small-fry nations are left alone. No such dynamic would hold (or does hold) in an inherently-asymmetrical “union” between a large backside and 3 pimples, I’m afraid.
Looking at our 2 real-world choices, no offence mate, we love ya and all (and we do!) – but we’ll stick with the EU.
Thank you for such an erudite and fulsome reply.
There is no doubt about it that the English have never really understood the Irish, as you say, despite a number of notable similarities.
Some years ago now, I used to Lecture in Ireland and even then was astonished by the: “large swathes of South Dublin Irish people speak with strangulated faux Home Counties accents and read only right-wing English newspapers”, as
you rightly say. Some were even sending their offspring to Eton!
I seem to recall that the Statutes of Kilkenny described three classes of people: ‘The Loyal English’, The Wild Irish’ and horror of horrors, ‘The Degenerate English’. Perhaps it is those Degenerate English who now inhabit South Dublin?
Anyway in a spirit of compromise, let use the words of our former mutual arch-enemy and say “Vive la difference!”
Thank you for such an erudite and fulsome reply.
There is no doubt about it that the English have never really understood the Irish, as you say, despite a number of notable similarities.
Some years ago now, I used to Lecture in Ireland and even then was astonished by the: “large swathes of South Dublin Irish people speak with strangulated faux Home Counties accents and read only right-wing English newspapers”, as
you rightly say. Some were even sending their offspring to Eton!
I seem to recall that the Statutes of Kilkenny described three classes of people: ‘The Loyal English’, The Wild Irish’ and horror of horrors, ‘The Degenerate English’. Perhaps it is those Degenerate English who now inhabit South Dublin?
Anyway in a spirit of compromise, let use the words of our former mutual arch-enemy and say “Vive la difference!”
Ireland could, of course become Europes richest country overnight by ditching the EU and becoming a tax haven: why they do not, is quite beyond me?
Possibly because they are IRISH?
Possibly because they are IRISH?
It was actually the French speaking Normans. The Saxons have been dispossessed for 1000 years.
It’s a popular British viewpoint – what on earth is wrong with the Irish? “Such independent-minded folks, forever fighting to get rid of the British, and now look at them, good little EU members, meekly doing what they’re told.”
The British bewilderment at what they see as a logical inconsistency derives from a fundamental misunderstanding of modern Ireland.
The Brexiter Briton views Ireland through a prism of British patriotism, and assumes that a patriotic Irish person fundamentally must view the world as s/he does.
But we do not.
The vast majority of Irish people are not very nationalist at all.
Certainly, nowhere nearly as nationalistic as English people.
We of course like our little but of autonomy, but at heart we’re EU Federalists.
Until you understand that, you’ll forever be confused about modern Ireland.
Sure, in the early part of the last century, in the years immediately following independence, de Valera’s Ireland certainly was partial to the kind of “anti all outsiders” Romantic notion of independence that Brexiters would approve of.
But that was, er, in the last century. That Irish mindset no longer exists, apart from a few unelectable cranks in the Irish National Party.
Problem is, that kind of “splendid isolation” independence only works if you’re a major world power, and even then it isn’t ideal. Britain is just about big enough to get away with it.
Ireland has no hope of doing so. We’re simply too small, both in population and economic terms.
Once the far-sighted civil servant, T. K. Whitaker, shifted Irish economic policy towards globalisation and openness, the country started a path to economic recovery.
And that lesson has been well learned.
Ireland has two theoretical choices – economic reintegration with the UK, or continuing with the EU. Any purported third way – “freedom” from both the UK and the EU, as advocated by well-meaning Brexiters – is a policy cul de sac, a De Valera style delusion of Skibbereen Eagle proportions.
De facto, a vote to leave the EU is a vote to be once again dominated by the UK.
There is no other real-world choice available to us Charles.
Full independence, for a country as small as Ireland, is a chimaera.
The latent defect in the UK’s structure is its asymmetry.
Just as you can’t have a realistic “joint venture” between (1) Joe Bloggs & Nephew Keyboard Repair Services Limited and (2) Apple Inc; neither, long term, can you have a culturally functioning union between a mid-ranking global power such as England and 3 pipsqueak countries. Even when the English are well disposed towards the shrimps, which isn’t invariable might I add, the Celtic fringe countries will never amount to more than pimples on a large English backside. Culturally, England is always going to dominate. In the past, the Statutes of Kilkenny, which criminalised the Irish language and Irish sports; but sheer cultural mass alone will have a similar effect. In a few generations, any smaller country united with England runs the risk of ceasing to exist, even as a discrete anthropological entity. Just look at Wales. Fine, if your real goal is just to be English-lite, but you should at least be honest about that and admit that Unionism merely is a narrowly-English project, intent on eradicating cultural divergence from English mores. Inevitably, the middles classes in any culture seek to ape the socially dominant classes in the culturally dominant country. Which is why, even today, large swathes of South Dublin Irish people speak with strangulated faux Home Counties accents and read only right-wing English newspapers.
By contrast, inside the EU, there is much greater diversity of culture and more room for tiny countries to retain a distinct cultural identity. That is, while the gorillas of France, Germany, Spain and Italy etc are busy jostling each other, the small-fry nations are left alone. No such dynamic would hold (or does hold) in an inherently-asymmetrical “union” between a large backside and 3 pimples, I’m afraid.
Looking at our 2 real-world choices, no offence mate, we love ya and all (and we do!) – but we’ll stick with the EU.
Ireland could, of course become Europes richest country overnight by ditching the EU and becoming a tax haven: why they do not, is quite beyond me?
I totally agree and am always annoying the natives when I point out this illogical position to my many relatives in N. Ireland.They then call me a West Briton.
The thing is that since EU membership is presently a process, not a position, increasingly people in Ireland will question the nature of the EU, which presently they do not. The debate over corporation tax has been temporarily delayed by Ireland’s useful idiot position re the NI Protocol, but that can’t last. There will inevitably come a time when Irish voters will substantially oppose a major reality of EU membership, and they will be confronted with the awkward fact that their votes count for nothing.
The thing is that since EU membership is presently a process, not a position, increasingly people in Ireland will question the nature of the EU, which presently they do not. The debate over corporation tax has been temporarily delayed by Ireland’s useful idiot position re the NI Protocol, but that can’t last. There will inevitably come a time when Irish voters will substantially oppose a major reality of EU membership, and they will be confronted with the awkward fact that their votes count for nothing.
After a struggle lasting almost eight centuries to reclaim “the land the Saxons stole* it is curious how quickly the Irish people have jettisoned their hard fought independence.
I suppose it could be called “subverting the elite”, with copious amounts of EU largesse providing the trigger. (Something Ancient Rome was also rather good at.)
Perhaps this immigration farrago will provide the catalyst for a fight back, after all ‘they’ only have to look to England to see what the results of near unrestricted immigration may bring.
(* Not technically correct, but it makes a good song!)
I totally agree and am always annoying the natives when I point out this illogical position to my many relatives in N. Ireland.They then call me a West Briton.
I have some sympathy with your point.
The complete and utter shambles caused by Varadeker and his henchmen – just because their biggest customer decided they no longer wanted to be controlled by the EU (Ultimately) Germany was an absolute assault on the will expressed by a (now) Sovereign state. Especially when The Irish ran out of money and were refused more by (ECB/Meekel/Germany) – it was “the old enemy” that sent a cheque for £7bn. Not such an enemy after all – when the chips were down it seems
I too feel some smugness and expect as more control is centralised to The EU (taxation and debt raising etc) is on its way.
it was “the old enemy” that sent a cheque for £7bn.
Slightly off on the figure and it was a loan. Much appreciated nevertheless.
‘The Irish government has repaid the emergency loan it got from the UK during the last financial crisis. It borrowed £3.23bn as part its international bailout in 2010. The loan was drawn down in eight portions between 2011 and 2013, each to be repaid after seven and a half years.’
it was “the old enemy” that sent a cheque for £7bn.
Slightly off on the figure and it was a loan. Much appreciated nevertheless.
‘The Irish government has repaid the emergency loan it got from the UK during the last financial crisis. It borrowed £3.23bn as part its international bailout in 2010. The loan was drawn down in eight portions between 2011 and 2013, each to be repaid after seven and a half years.’
Wrong again Charles. Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. Everything to do with a centre right Irish government that, for Thatcherite ideological reasons, assumes that the private sector is best at everything, and refuses to build low cost housing stock (that the private sector of course sees as too unprofitable to bother with). That is a policy choice by that govt, nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. That, and a Ukraine war. Which, you will recall, was started by the rat in the Kremlin. Again, nothing to do with the EU. You really need to grow out of your fixation with the EU.
John Riordan (of this Parish) above would disagree with you; So has he inadvertently exaggerated the Anti-EU sentiment within the Republic?
“and refuses to build low cost housing stock (that the private sector of course sees as too unprofitable to bother with).”
There’s the nonsense in your argument. There is no such thing as “low cost” housing that is “unprofitable”. What you mean is that the private sector won’t build expensive houses and then sell them at a loss, which when we put it like that the government has no business doing either. You can dress this up in all the political nonsense you like, but the fact is that you’re talking ideological drivel.
John Riordan (of this Parish) above would disagree with you; So has he inadvertently exaggerated the Anti-EU sentiment within the Republic?
“and refuses to build low cost housing stock (that the private sector of course sees as too unprofitable to bother with).”
There’s the nonsense in your argument. There is no such thing as “low cost” housing that is “unprofitable”. What you mean is that the private sector won’t build expensive houses and then sell them at a loss, which when we put it like that the government has no business doing either. You can dress this up in all the political nonsense you like, but the fact is that you’re talking ideological drivel.
Unfortunately you’re right.
The new Sinn Fein slogan “Brits out, everyone else in”
Well I suppose a little schadenfreude is sometimes understandable and amusing. However this issue goes well beyond the EU as we see from post Brexit Britain.
The reality is that western establishments of all stripes had for decades by the care little about this issue of mass migration or actually wanted to see it increase.
The narrative of an appalling climate catastrophe affecting the ‘Global South’ and forcing millions of people on the move is complete nonsense. This is a political choice. For all our problems there is no serious doubt that the world is richer with, lower family size lower child mortality, and better health outcomes and education than it is ever been.
No, people are just much more aware of how others live elsewhere (or a distorted version of it) they may have existing contacts and family in the West, they are rich enough to pay people smugglers thousands of dollars! And they know they are very likely to be able to stay in practice.
In other words, mass migration is a deliberate western choice. Japan has none, Saudi has accepted precisely zero refugees from the Syrian conflict, despite their having so much in common culturally. China closes its borders when it wishes to. Of course the difference is probably that those countries are a lot tougher with those who have no right to be there. UNCHR or no UNCHR.
A great many plastic paddies, who have always supported Irish independence, support Ireland’s eventual exit from the EU on precisely that basis. I am one myself and I remain confused at the fact that most Irish people are quite happy to surrender their political independence to Brussels, yet are (rightly) proud of their nation’s history in which their ancestors recovered that same independence from Britain.
I am careful of course not to argue directly with Irish voters on this subject because although I’m an Irish citizen, I’m not an Irish resident or voter. The only point I will defend is that a nation cannot be both an EU member and independent: it is one or the other.
I have some sympathy with your point.
The complete and utter shambles caused by Varadeker and his henchmen – just because their biggest customer decided they no longer wanted to be controlled by the EU (Ultimately) Germany was an absolute assault on the will expressed by a (now) Sovereign state. Especially when The Irish ran out of money and were refused more by (ECB/Meekel/Germany) – it was “the old enemy” that sent a cheque for £7bn. Not such an enemy after all – when the chips were down it seems
I too feel some smugness and expect as more control is centralised to The EU (taxation and debt raising etc) is on its way.
Wrong again Charles. Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. Everything to do with a centre right Irish government that, for Thatcherite ideological reasons, assumes that the private sector is best at everything, and refuses to build low cost housing stock (that the private sector of course sees as too unprofitable to bother with). That is a policy choice by that govt, nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. That, and a Ukraine war. Which, you will recall, was started by the rat in the Kremlin. Again, nothing to do with the EU. You really need to grow out of your fixation with the EU.
Unfortunately you’re right.
The new Sinn Fein slogan “Brits out, everyone else in”
By ‘selling’ itself to the EU. the Kerrygold Republic has brought this on itself, and I for one must admit I am enjoying some delicious, smug, schadenfreude!
No doubt Legions of Plastic Paddies will be outraged, but this was INEVITABLE!
Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have perfected the art of marrying socialist taxation with neoliberal state services – i.e. as few and as crappy as they can get away with. As others have said, FF and FG have said for years if not decades, in the face of Ireland’s dismal problems with housing shortage and overloaded health services, that they’re doing all they can and nothing more can be done, only to shake the magic money tree for Corona and Ukraine refugees.
Voters will gravitate towards politicians that address the issues voters feel strongly about. If an establishment party refuses to engage and lead on an issue, voters will look elsewhere. That is not populism, that is democracy.
Well said!
I’m sick of the bogey of ‘right wing populism’ being raised every time desperate people are pushed too far and take to the streets. So-called liberal commentaters don’t give a stuff about the FF/FG exacerbated housing crisis etc. in the South but they’ll get up on their hind legs to screech about right wing populism and perceived racism quick enough. Sinn Fein will be up to the same tricks if they get the chance.
Well said!
I’m sick of the bogey of ‘right wing populism’ being raised every time desperate people are pushed too far and take to the streets. So-called liberal commentaters don’t give a stuff about the FF/FG exacerbated housing crisis etc. in the South but they’ll get up on their hind legs to screech about right wing populism and perceived racism quick enough. Sinn Fein will be up to the same tricks if they get the chance.
Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have perfected the art of marrying socialist taxation with neoliberal state services – i.e. as few and as crappy as they can get away with. As others have said, FF and FG have said for years if not decades, in the face of Ireland’s dismal problems with housing shortage and overloaded health services, that they’re doing all they can and nothing more can be done, only to shake the magic money tree for Corona and Ukraine refugees.
Voters will gravitate towards politicians that address the issues voters feel strongly about. If an establishment party refuses to engage and lead on an issue, voters will look elsewhere. That is not populism, that is democracy.
Why are they ‘right wing’? If anti-immigrant position is combined with a commitment to the welfare state (exclusionary, membership based citizen solidarity) and a hostility to faceless global corporations, is that ‘right wing’? Is left/right wing simply a litmus of cosmopolitanism and diversity?
The world’s first welfare state was in Prussia, and it was developed by von Bismark. He was intensely right-wing by modern standards, but he cared enough about the Prussian workers that he gave them things like pensions and sickness benefit.
Sometimes the right/left dichotomy is not the right metric to use.
The Ancient Romans provided a food dole called the ‘Cura Annonae’.
I would say they got there first! (as usual.)
Thank you Sulpicia
Eventually, they provided circuses to go with the ‘bread’, and it all went downhill from there.
Thank you Sulpicia
Eventually, they provided circuses to go with the ‘bread’, and it all went downhill from there.
The Ancient Romans provided a food dole called the ‘Cura Annonae’.
I would say they got there first! (as usual.)
The world’s first welfare state was in Prussia, and it was developed by von Bismark. He was intensely right-wing by modern standards, but he cared enough about the Prussian workers that he gave them things like pensions and sickness benefit.
Sometimes the right/left dichotomy is not the right metric to use.
Why are they ‘right wing’? If anti-immigrant position is combined with a commitment to the welfare state (exclusionary, membership based citizen solidarity) and a hostility to faceless global corporations, is that ‘right wing’? Is left/right wing simply a litmus of cosmopolitanism and diversity?
The Right-Wing-Populists! They want Ireland to remain Irish! How horrifying. The woke-globalist hegemony is appalled by their Racism. The agenda is to homogenize the world and Ireland is not excused.
Other countries took in the Irish by the millions when they were in trouble, so no, it doesn’t look great when the favour is not returned, especially for a community that calls itself Christian. Moreover, whilst untramelled immigration is clearly a problem, so is xenophobia – so, it’s a little more complicated than your comment suggests. There are plenty of laws in place already for countries to evict criminals, and to the best of my knowledge, immigrants are less likely to do criminal acts. Though, as with schizophrenics, it is so much more scary when they do crime – at least to a certain mindset.
The countries that took the Irish in by the millions aren’t the ones from which immigrants are coming to Ireland now, so there’s no question of returning a favour. Moreover, apart from the UK, the countries to which the Irish primarily emigrated in the 19th century were vast, largely empty, continents with whose colonial populations they had deep cultural affinities, not tiny islands like Ireland with whose cultural and political values few of the immigrants arriving here from Africa, Asia and the Middle East have anything in common.
The Irish immmigrants to the USA faced deep resistance and prejudice for decades from the locals, who very much looked down on them (I could name just a few typical slurs, but that would not be politic) – I have little sympathy for any Irish now aggressively complaining about immigrants – massive hypocrisy, especially where they also claim to be christian, and the immigrants are Ukranian refugees. Annnemarie’s commments give a very clear sense of the qualities of such complainers.
To be clear, I have no problem with Ireland controlling, reducing immigration – if it wants this as a democratic position. Just not minded to let the hypocrisy, or the xenophobic elements a pass. In a country that calls itself christian, was Vatican dominated for a long long time, plays up to underdog status, supplied immigrants in huge proportions, and has boasted of enormous benefits from EU integration…..Perhaps as Mr Stanhope is doing, I should relax and bask in the the schadenfreude.
The Irish immmigrants to the USA faced deep resistance and prejudice for decades from the locals, who very much looked down on them (I could name just a few typical slurs, but that would not be politic) – I have little sympathy for any Irish now aggressively complaining about immigrants – massive hypocrisy, especially where they also claim to be christian, and the immigrants are Ukranian refugees. Annnemarie’s commments give a very clear sense of the qualities of such complainers.
To be clear, I have no problem with Ireland controlling, reducing immigration – if it wants this as a democratic position. Just not minded to let the hypocrisy, or the xenophobic elements a pass. In a country that calls itself christian, was Vatican dominated for a long long time, plays up to underdog status, supplied immigrants in huge proportions, and has boasted of enormous benefits from EU integration…..Perhaps as Mr Stanhope is doing, I should relax and bask in the the schadenfreude.
Catch yourself on with your weird co dependent effeminate claptrap. There is nothing in Christianity that tells people to let themselves be buggered up the ass and feed their neighbours children while their own starve
Eh?
You were bleating on, in a high pitched effeminate tone, about Christianity teaching one to be a codependent weirdo. It does nothing of the sort.
Nonsense.
Nonsense.
You were bleating on, in a high pitched effeminate tone, about Christianity teaching one to be a codependent weirdo. It does nothing of the sort.
Eh?
Catch yourself on. There is nothing in Catholicism that teaches one to be a codependent martyr who feeds your neighbours children ahead of your own.
Immigrants are less likely to ‘do criminal acts’? Have you seen the population of European prisons, or crime stats (where they exist)? And no, it’s not down to ‘systemic racism’.
Just the facts Jon –
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/undocumented-immigrants-are-half-as-likely-to-be-arrested-for-violent-crimes-as-u-s-born-citizens/
https://www.cato.org/blog/new-research-illegal-immigration-crime-0
There are some obvious reasons why – a) most immigrants are motivated for a better life, i.e. ambitous b) they are generally aware of their precarious position – they are highly notiiceable, and crimes will likely get them deported.
The population of European prisons is not relevant. That is likely to reflect enprisonment policy – ie. Nordic countries jail few people, out of policy, and the Americans jail loads.
Neither am I implying immigrants are some soort of angel – I’m just pushing back against the crude xenophobia abundently on display.
Of course, there are ‘immigrants’ and immigrants. Most from greater Asia seem to go to the US, work hard and contribute, while demonstrating strong family values and appreciating the chance they have been given. Then there are those who do none of those things.
Of course, there are ‘immigrants’ and immigrants. Most from greater Asia seem to go to the US, work hard and contribute, while demonstrating strong family values and appreciating the chance they have been given. Then there are those who do none of those things.
Just the facts Jon –
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/undocumented-immigrants-are-half-as-likely-to-be-arrested-for-violent-crimes-as-u-s-born-citizens/
https://www.cato.org/blog/new-research-illegal-immigration-crime-0
There are some obvious reasons why – a) most immigrants are motivated for a better life, i.e. ambitous b) they are generally aware of their precarious position – they are highly notiiceable, and crimes will likely get them deported.
The population of European prisons is not relevant. That is likely to reflect enprisonment policy – ie. Nordic countries jail few people, out of policy, and the Americans jail loads.
Neither am I implying immigrants are some soort of angel – I’m just pushing back against the crude xenophobia abundently on display.
Those who are in favour of accepting true refugees, while being healthily suspicious of large numbers of migrant single men, many of whom come from cultures where women have little or no status, are hardly xenophobic.
The ‘plenty of laws to evict criminals’ bit never works, since the human rights lawyers delay everything until length of residence means that the right to stay is inevitable.
I already stated that I’ve no problem with a robust immigration policy…only with xenophobic elements – these are very real. You may be correct about the law, I don’t know, but that is on our system, not on immigrants nor their lawyers.
I already stated that I’ve no problem with a robust immigration policy…only with xenophobic elements – these are very real. You may be correct about the law, I don’t know, but that is on our system, not on immigrants nor their lawyers.
The countries that took the Irish in by the millions aren’t the ones from which immigrants are coming to Ireland now, so there’s no question of returning a favour. Moreover, apart from the UK, the countries to which the Irish primarily emigrated in the 19th century were vast, largely empty, continents with whose colonial populations they had deep cultural affinities, not tiny islands like Ireland with whose cultural and political values few of the immigrants arriving here from Africa, Asia and the Middle East have anything in common.
Catch yourself on with your weird co dependent effeminate claptrap. There is nothing in Christianity that tells people to let themselves be buggered up the ass and feed their neighbours children while their own starve
Catch yourself on. There is nothing in Catholicism that teaches one to be a codependent martyr who feeds your neighbours children ahead of your own.
Immigrants are less likely to ‘do criminal acts’? Have you seen the population of European prisons, or crime stats (where they exist)? And no, it’s not down to ‘systemic racism’.
Those who are in favour of accepting true refugees, while being healthily suspicious of large numbers of migrant single men, many of whom come from cultures where women have little or no status, are hardly xenophobic.
The ‘plenty of laws to evict criminals’ bit never works, since the human rights lawyers delay everything until length of residence means that the right to stay is inevitable.
Other countries took in the Irish by the millions when they were in trouble, so no, it doesn’t look great when the favour is not returned, especially for a community that calls itself Christian. Moreover, whilst untramelled immigration is clearly a problem, so is xenophobia – so, it’s a little more complicated than your comment suggests. There are plenty of laws in place already for countries to evict criminals, and to the best of my knowledge, immigrants are less likely to do criminal acts. Though, as with schizophrenics, it is so much more scary when they do crime – at least to a certain mindset.
The Right-Wing-Populists! They want Ireland to remain Irish! How horrifying. The woke-globalist hegemony is appalled by their Racism. The agenda is to homogenize the world and Ireland is not excused.
Not surprisingly there has been not a squeak on the BBC online news page about these anti-immigration demos in Ireland. One sees there only news that suits their agenda, and anything else is swept under the carpet. Partiality verging on propaganda by omission.
Amusingly, the BBC is among the most enthusiastic proponents of the ‘Trusted News Initiative’.
I wouldn’t trust them to tell me what yesterday’s weather was.
Amusingly, the BBC is among the most enthusiastic proponents of the ‘Trusted News Initiative’.
I wouldn’t trust them to tell me what yesterday’s weather was.
Not surprisingly there has been not a squeak on the BBC online news page about these anti-immigration demos in Ireland. One sees there only news that suits their agenda, and anything else is swept under the carpet. Partiality verging on propaganda by omission.
I suspect the final prediction will be proved correct – simply because it is in the interests of Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael to split the populist vote to which Sinn Fein appears to have exclusive access presently. There is therefore an incentive for the major two parties to make ideological room for the anti-immigrant protest vote as long as it goes to anyone but Sinn Fein.
This will also come with a greater public profile for anti-EU parties of course, but that would still be better than allowing Sinn Fein to make further inroads into popular support. And the EU is of course still building its federation program for all Euro nations, which has been and still is a giant car-crash waiting to happen as Ireland’s favoured destination for global multinational head offices comes under further attack, so there is always the EU itself to help these fringe parties along.
Will the next election even matter all that much, the country is controlled by NGOs now, it makes no difference who you vote for
If by NGO’s you also mean unelected/unsackable Eurocrats at The EU – over which The Irish nor any other “member state” has any influence (Germany being the ONLY exception) – then yep! Its all true.
No thats not what I mean
I took D Walsh to mean the sort of organisations that wielded the telling influence during the last 3 years of western governmental panic and missteps.
I took D Walsh to mean the sort of organisations that wielded the telling influence during the last 3 years of western governmental panic and missteps.
No thats not what I mean
If by NGO’s you also mean unelected/unsackable Eurocrats at The EU – over which The Irish nor any other “member state” has any influence (Germany being the ONLY exception) – then yep! Its all true.
Will the next election even matter all that much, the country is controlled by NGOs now, it makes no difference who you vote for
I suspect the final prediction will be proved correct – simply because it is in the interests of Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael to split the populist vote to which Sinn Fein appears to have exclusive access presently. There is therefore an incentive for the major two parties to make ideological room for the anti-immigrant protest vote as long as it goes to anyone but Sinn Fein.
This will also come with a greater public profile for anti-EU parties of course, but that would still be better than allowing Sinn Fein to make further inroads into popular support. And the EU is of course still building its federation program for all Euro nations, which has been and still is a giant car-crash waiting to happen as Ireland’s favoured destination for global multinational head offices comes under further attack, so there is always the EU itself to help these fringe parties along.
If Ireland is full (of emptiness!) what does that make England?
Free movement between richer northern European countries and those of eastern and southern poorer countries was always going to have economic migration. Only a Politician blinded by an idiotic and irreconcilable dream would not foresee it.
Sorry Ireland – your unelected/unsackable masters far from your shores have decided “you will do as your told”. Especially when you dared to vote against them in your referendum.
But even in Ireland the mood is now changing – is it because you are now a net contributor? Is it because you can see your EU subs increasing with 6 more extremely poor countries on their way in?
Most people in Ireland know little about how the EU works or what our financial contribution is, and those that do are generally in favour of open borders. The recent change in mood is because it’s become impossible for everyone else to ignore the demographic seachange taking place, which they’ve never been directly consulted about by the people who purport to represent them.
Those chilling words: ‘I’m from the government, and I’m here to help’.
Those chilling words: ‘I’m from the government, and I’m here to help’.
Most people in Ireland know little about how the EU works or what our financial contribution is, and those that do are generally in favour of open borders. The recent change in mood is because it’s become impossible for everyone else to ignore the demographic seachange taking place, which they’ve never been directly consulted about by the people who purport to represent them.
If Ireland is full (of emptiness!) what does that make England?
Free movement between richer northern European countries and those of eastern and southern poorer countries was always going to have economic migration. Only a Politician blinded by an idiotic and irreconcilable dream would not foresee it.
Sorry Ireland – your unelected/unsackable masters far from your shores have decided “you will do as your told”. Especially when you dared to vote against them in your referendum.
But even in Ireland the mood is now changing – is it because you are now a net contributor? Is it because you can see your EU subs increasing with 6 more extremely poor countries on their way in?
It’s the same story everywhere. Populism is essentially democracy in action and so it threatens establishment politicians who put their own agendas ahead of the people. There’s something absurd about a nationalist party like Sin Fein, that for years has supported terrorists fighting over religious differences, and yet supports open immigration of people with all kinds of religions and nationalities. It’s hard to dislodge the established powers, but I wish the Irish good luck. They’ll be better off if democracy wins.
Nobody in SF was fighting over religious differences
Nobody in SF was fighting over religious differences
It’s the same story everywhere. Populism is essentially democracy in action and so it threatens establishment politicians who put their own agendas ahead of the people. There’s something absurd about a nationalist party like Sin Fein, that for years has supported terrorists fighting over religious differences, and yet supports open immigration of people with all kinds of religions and nationalities. It’s hard to dislodge the established powers, but I wish the Irish good luck. They’ll be better off if democracy wins.
This report is very misleading. Most Ukrainian refugees are women and children. Their men are fighting.
Most of these offences are being committed by “refugees” from other countries.
No it’s not. I clearly differentiated between the 70k Ukrainian refugees (which are about 30% male – 70% female) and the 20k other asylum seekers. The other group is the one with 40% no travel IDs and 50% single male.
No it’s not. I clearly differentiated between the 70k Ukrainian refugees (which are about 30% male – 70% female) and the 20k other asylum seekers. The other group is the one with 40% no travel IDs and 50% single male.
This report is very misleading. Most Ukrainian refugees are women and children. Their men are fighting.
Most of these offences are being committed by “refugees” from other countries.
I believe that there is a reasonable way forward for Ireland, which neither appeases the far right nor demonises all demonstrators as Nazis. Measures like this: (1) Include pre-existing homeless people in Ireland in all emergency housing arrangements. (2) Turn back all arrivals in Ireland who have destroyed their documents in transit. (3) Have a faster one-stop appeal system for asylum seekers. Also, I personally think that Ireland’s legal obligation to admit Ukrainian refugees needs to be suspended for the next 1-2 years in order to bring the existing accommodation crisis under control.
I’m not sure how you’d establish (or prove) your item 2.
I’m not sure how you’d establish (or prove) your item 2.
I believe that there is a reasonable way forward for Ireland, which neither appeases the far right nor demonises all demonstrators as Nazis. Measures like this: (1) Include pre-existing homeless people in Ireland in all emergency housing arrangements. (2) Turn back all arrivals in Ireland who have destroyed their documents in transit. (3) Have a faster one-stop appeal system for asylum seekers. Also, I personally think that Ireland’s legal obligation to admit Ukrainian refugees needs to be suspended for the next 1-2 years in order to bring the existing accommodation crisis under control.
Ireland is the EU’s leading economy measured by domestic output per head. Irish citizens, according to the statistics, enjoy incomes on average twice those of Germans, and two n half times those of us poor Brits.
Surely the land of the craic can well afford to step up and embrace its beloved EU’s policy of extending a welcoming invite to underemployed criminals beyond its borders?
And who in politics nowadays cares what the working class wants?
Ireland is the EU’s leading economy measured by domestic output per head. Irish citizens, according to the statistics, enjoy incomes on average twice those of Germans, and two n half times those of us poor Brits.
Surely the land of the craic can well afford to step up and embrace its beloved EU’s policy of extending a welcoming invite to underemployed criminals beyond its borders?
And who in politics nowadays cares what the working class wants?
What’s the difference between invading native lands in Ireland or anywhere else, disrupting the indiginous way of life and eventually overwhelming it?
The indigenous population is not happy but has no say – until descendents of the invaders feel remorse for ‘living in someone else’s land’ Happened plenty of times before!
Feeling remorse for living in someone else’s land is unique to the descendents of European colonists as far as I know.
It happened since the dawn of time.
But now we are ‘civilised’ and respect each others rights and spaces..
We do?
We do?
It happened since the dawn of time.
But now we are ‘civilised’ and respect each others rights and spaces..
Feeling remorse for living in someone else’s land is unique to the descendents of European colonists as far as I know.
What’s the difference between invading native lands in Ireland or anywhere else, disrupting the indiginous way of life and eventually overwhelming it?
The indigenous population is not happy but has no say – until descendents of the invaders feel remorse for ‘living in someone else’s land’ Happened plenty of times before!
They have more backbone than those in the UK. To support their culture makes them right wing! This is the globalist propaganda as they know strong cultures like Irish are stronger together. So easy to divide mixed society. No cohesion without nationality and unity, Japan is the paradigm for this!!
They have more backbone than those in the UK. To support their culture makes them right wing! This is the globalist propaganda as they know strong cultures like Irish are stronger together. So easy to divide mixed society. No cohesion without nationality and unity, Japan is the paradigm for this!!
Good article. I’ve been surprised by the turn out at these protests. We will see how it develops. There’s an open class war by the private school posh boy “left” in Ireland against ordinary people. Migration is one front of this war.
Good article. I’ve been surprised by the turn out at these protests. We will see how it develops. There’s an open class war by the private school posh boy “left” in Ireland against ordinary people. Migration is one front of this war.
What a surprise… not?
What a surprise… not?
Oh, imperfect world!
The piece omitted to mention the huge support the IFP enjoys.. ‘must be nearly 1% now is it? The piece suggests IFP and the right-wing extremist racists (maybe another 1 or 2% of the population) is a growing movement. It isn’t. What is growing is the level of disenchantment with the FF/FG government which has failed dismally to address the housing crisis over the past 15 years. Indeed many TDs (MPs) are landlords so we can forget about reducing scarcity which keeps rents high.
Developers and builders are huge FF/FG supporters so they too are accommodated in hoarding land banks and so keeping house prices high. FF/FG have set their faces against public housing in favour of a corrupt building sector and it is this (and other government failures) that has the right-wing extremists up in arms. Sadly they take it out on migrants (who ARE housed and at very high cost) instead of directing their anger where it belongs.. at the government!
So, anti government sentiment is a big deal and growing but anti immigrant is really confined to the racist xenophobes you find everywhere. I Ireland they form small minority unlike the UK.
Ouch! LOL
Ouch! LOL
The piece omitted to mention the huge support the IFP enjoys.. ‘must be nearly 1% now is it? The piece suggests IFP and the right-wing extremist racists (maybe another 1 or 2% of the population) is a growing movement. It isn’t. What is growing is the level of disenchantment with the FF/FG government which has failed dismally to address the housing crisis over the past 15 years. Indeed many TDs (MPs) are landlords so we can forget about reducing scarcity which keeps rents high.
Developers and builders are huge FF/FG supporters so they too are accommodated in hoarding land banks and so keeping house prices high. FF/FG have set their faces against public housing in favour of a corrupt building sector and it is this (and other government failures) that has the right-wing extremists up in arms. Sadly they take it out on migrants (who ARE housed and at very high cost) instead of directing their anger where it belongs.. at the government!
So, anti government sentiment is a big deal and growing but anti immigrant is really confined to the racist xenophobes you find everywhere. I Ireland they form small minority unlike the UK.
Hilarious banner. “Ireland is Full” For 160 odd years the Irish have been lamenting the depopulation of Ireland. Sad songs about how they had to leave the emerald isle and how they all want to go back really. They have a point. In 1840 the population of Ireland was 8m (6.5m in what is now the Republic). The current population is 5m. So, they have a few places left. Famous for sending their compatriots all over the world as emigrants they now complain about immigrants. In the words of Lance Corporal Jones. They don’t like it up’em.
It’s a bit rich to hear the Irish complain about immigration.They have made an art of emigration to wherever they possibly could. Most of which was for economic reasons only.
Perhaps that should be ‘Irish Housing Stock Is Full’?
That is what I think about when I hear these debates. Without dismissing the complexity of waves of refugees into nations and housing difficulties, etc., I feel as if the Irish don’t understand their history, of how we we were forced to emigrate to find work/lives elsewhere, often treated like animals (USA included), and now some are lamenting when people are forced to turn to our land for some opportunity. Just a little empathy would be desirable in my view. Would like to know people’s thoughts.
It’s a bit rich to hear the Irish complain about immigration.They have made an art of emigration to wherever they possibly could. Most of which was for economic reasons only.
Perhaps that should be ‘Irish Housing Stock Is Full’?
That is what I think about when I hear these debates. Without dismissing the complexity of waves of refugees into nations and housing difficulties, etc., I feel as if the Irish don’t understand their history, of how we we were forced to emigrate to find work/lives elsewhere, often treated like animals (USA included), and now some are lamenting when people are forced to turn to our land for some opportunity. Just a little empathy would be desirable in my view. Would like to know people’s thoughts.
Hilarious banner. “Ireland is Full” For 160 odd years the Irish have been lamenting the depopulation of Ireland. Sad songs about how they had to leave the emerald isle and how they all want to go back really. They have a point. In 1840 the population of Ireland was 8m (6.5m in what is now the Republic). The current population is 5m. So, they have a few places left. Famous for sending their compatriots all over the world as emigrants they now complain about immigrants. In the words of Lance Corporal Jones. They don’t like it up’em.