“Please understand one thing. It’s the youth who always leave, and the youth are easy to fool,” he continues. “Look at this fuckhead,” he indicates a teenage boy sitting on another table, with what I am quickly learning is the informal uniform for young men here: a puffer jacket (ideally Adidas), tight dark jeans and white trainers. “This is the Albanian youth style: the ‘gangsta’ look that does not privilege honest work — that is just for suckers. These Ali Gs love the idea of ‘easy money’ — the drug money Albanian rappers constantly talk about in their songs, and kids lap it up.”
I ask why this is. “It’s hard to go from extreme communism to extreme capitalism. Under communism, the issue was never ideology but survival: we’d line up for bread and there would be none.” Communism failed, and then, after the pyramid schemes wiped out the savings of those who had worked honestly for years, so did capitalism. Now democracy is seen to have failed, too. What is left in terms of authority is simple: who is the strongest or wealthiest. If you don’t join a gang, you will end up as a “loser”, a teacher or janitor who earns $300.
“So they go where their money is — and they become smugglers and they come back and are proud of it. People here don’t give a crap about how you earn your money — only that you have it. “Money is like a drug: the more you get, the more you need.”
***
Rifat Demilaj is the Executive Director of the Centre for Youth Progress, a local NGO that works on civic engagement and human rights, with a focus on youth. “We have been working with returnees from the UK,” he explains. “Most are looking for money to go back again. They didn’t find paradise in the UK, they found… different things. The most unfortunate get involved with trafficking groups. First they charge them £20,000 to get into the country which they have to work off. The gangs then find ways to keep them trapped. It’s modern slavery.”
I ask him why the UK is such a favoured destination over, say, France or Germany. “Well, first it’s that you need fewer documents to work there,” he replies. “And it’s not just the money; people here are sick of the endless bureaucracy.”
And there are other things, too. My mind flicks back to a conversation I had with a local barber who has recently returned from four years in London because he missed his children. “British people are more cultured,” he told me. When I asked if he would return to the UK, he replied: “Every kid in Albania wants to go to the UK because there are no jobs here and even when there are, they pay terribly. Even my kids want to go to the UK. If I had a chance to go with my children, I would.”
Demilaj continues: “After 30 years, politics has done nothing for the people while politicians have gotten rich. Even the opposition and government work together. They both tell people to stay in Albania while their children are educated outside. A lack of belief in anything is the problem.” The desire to leave is so entrenched that it has now entered the culture. “Go into school and ask the children what they want to be when they grow up and they say: ‘an immigrant’…”
“Yep,” says Endri, with a drawl. “It’s the British Dream.”
***
Later in the day, I meet Met Tobli, Director of the Municipal Office of Pre-Tertiary Education, a white-haired man who sits in a bare office underneath a portrait of the founder of modern Albania, Ismail Qemali. On his desk, Tobli has a holder containing three small flags: Albanian, American and EU. “My input would be to tell them not to leave. There are people here; if we can live here, you can live here too.”
I ask how they are trying to stop kids from leaving. He tells me that they avoid mentioning the subject directly so as not to give the students ideas. “[I’d say that] if you go to the UK, you will need to work to live. If you stay, you will work to live. You must work in both places. It’s not free or easy money.” I then ask him about the flags on his desk. “These?” he replies. “They symbolise where here we are going.” If Albania joins the EU will things change? I ask. “Of course.” We leave and walk through central Has. All around are refurbished buildings painted in bright colours. Just off a main thoroughfare is a house run to seed with a modern, glass-heavy extension bolted onto it like a small space station affixed to a hut. This, Endi explains, was built with migrant money.
Outside the Britain Resto Bar, I meet 17-year-old student Sara. She tells me that many of her classmates think about going to Britain. Her own brother is there — working in construction. “He says it’s a lot harder and it’s a lot different. And the thing is that many go without papers, which means people can blackmail them.” People see the UK as a very rich country where things come easy. Through her brother, she knows that is not the case — but still she wants to go one day, even just to visit.
Inside, the bar is enveloped in a haze of cigarette smoke. “It was built in February,” Endi tells me. The owner worked in the UK before coming back and bought it. Sitting in a corner sofa area with four of his friends — all in regulation jackets, jeans and trainers — the owner’s nephew tells me that his dad put in 20% of the money for the bar. They named it Britain because they have so many family members there. His family, he told me, has been working there for years, and now own a scaffolding business. I ask him if he intends to go; he grins and flicks open his passport, proudly showing me a UK visa. “You can’t stay here,” he says, “because of both the government and the state.” As we leave, I remark to Endi that the nephew seemed nice. “Yeah,” he replies. “He was a good fuckhead.”
It’s a strange compliment, but strange things happen when societies no longer believe in anything. In Russia, the people eventually just went through the motions of communism knowing it was all nonsense; now they do the same with democracy. In Has, where they grow up with no local institutions to believe in, the people festoon their town with the long-discarded accoutrements of another city. It’s a place where residents bolt UK licence plates to their cars, where they hang out in British-themed bars, and where a middle-aged man has spent decades walking the same grid of streets, clutching an empty rucksack that has become a mausoleum to all that has been lost.
***
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The only reason all this is a problem is that politicians and bureaucrats have no imagination.
The UK government should buy a slice of coastal land in Albania and make it a UK Freeport under UK jurisdiction where UK businesses can go to take advantage of the cheap labour whilst still enjoying access to UK laws and administration. Maybe combine that with a tourist resort.
Great idea.
Dream on. Few peoples would tolerate being helped in that way – imagine how we’d react if we cut out a slice of Blighty to make a Bulgarian (or Japanese, or American) enterprise zone.
China seems to do well by that method.
Yes they have just bought a part of Mauritius that will forever be Chinese.
I’ve long admired Asia’s ability to absorb Western and foreign ideas (most Japanese get married in Western style – imagine most Brits donning Kimonos and getting married in a Shinto Temple!) – they balance it out, I think, with deep xenophobia about the actual foreigners in their country. Africa generally can’t afford not – and/or things happen because the Big Men are paid, cash in briefcases. I think we’d do well to avoid these exceptions – not that it is even on the cards.
Indeed. But it the UK did the same, it would be condemned as neo-colonialist and racist.
Yes they have just bought a part of Mauritius that will forever be Chinese.
I’ve long admired Asia’s ability to absorb Western and foreign ideas (most Japanese get married in Western style – imagine most Brits donning Kimonos and getting married in a Shinto Temple!) – they balance it out, I think, with deep xenophobia about the actual foreigners in their country. Africa generally can’t afford not – and/or things happen because the Big Men are paid, cash in briefcases. I think we’d do well to avoid these exceptions – not that it is even on the cards.
Indeed. But it the UK did the same, it would be condemned as neo-colonialist and racist.
China seems to do well by that method.
Great idea.
Dream on. Few peoples would tolerate being helped in that way – imagine how we’d react if we cut out a slice of Blighty to make a Bulgarian (or Japanese, or American) enterprise zone.
The only reason all this is a problem is that politicians and bureaucrats have no imagination.
The UK government should buy a slice of coastal land in Albania and make it a UK Freeport under UK jurisdiction where UK businesses can go to take advantage of the cheap labour whilst still enjoying access to UK laws and administration. Maybe combine that with a tourist resort.
Blithely mentions the drug & trafficking as just you know, part of what they come to do, but hey, there’s some builders too! How naive and how stereotypically dull in that NeoLiberal way to not understand how pervasive and endemic Albanian Organised Crime is? Those cafe bars, those hairdressers, those “Italian” restaurants you no doubt also have now in your part of the UK, heck, even the “scaffolding business” mentioned most likely. Think they’re all legit, nothing to do with laundering, and likely to pay their fair share in taxes etc dopey? The biggest shame in my life I see in my Fifties now is how stupid, gullible and downright smug and sanctimonious the younger, never had it easier generation are that they blithely accept all of this cockroaching of the UK and Western Europe generally and feel somehow doing so makes them a “good person”. Oh you’re not a Hater are you, some dullard who thinks he’s so so smart will cry… We’ll yes, you have to be given the direction of travel that’s being forced on us. Fyour globalism. We’re virtual now, they can get “jobs” online, stay where they are and build their middle class that way, I say. India,
Nigeria, Albania, all of them…Crushed getting in a concert? Hmmm they were trying to force their way in, they were just “excited/confident/misunderstood/disrespected” (insert excuse)…Knife crime and drug & sex trafficking gangs… Hmmm when & how did that suddenly became such a mainstream everyday “thing”…. Wasn’t the case 20 years ago, but my how were so much more “Diverse” now and yet still can’t smell the coffee? So wonderful being so stupid and craven isn’t it guys & girls? Nice cosy smug feeling inside. F helping, F off. On our terms it needs to be done or we’re the ones done for. Billions & billions already sent in aid, donorship to IFIs, expertise etc etc. if you can’t sort yourself out from that generous helping hand, tough. We never had it off you. Cut inbound migration massively in the next 5 years or the “UK” is fkd. Oh & happy, clappy ”Holiday Season” to all you Nigellas & Tristians who might be outraged, maybe try some Albanian delicacy with your turkey tangine & rice, no. Will be oh so educational for the kids… Meanwhile, someone’s kids being sex trafficked into & around the UK. Someone’s kids
getting stabbed by a disrespected wannabe gangsta born in Lagos, who arrived aged 8. White
Supremacist society that is the UK. Yada yada yada. Go fk yourselves NeoLiberals, you’ve created this crap.
Quite so Jonathan – they’re all so vulgar. Such second-rate money launderers compared with our glorious banks, PR agencies and law chambers- not for nothing is Blighty known as the concierge to the World’s best criminals. I long for the old days of Empire when we were free to make billions from them and not the other way around!
…
“Our banks”. It’s a global world we’re told. All I ask for is less foreigners and more space to breathe the same fresh air of civility I had growing up.
It’s not a question of our banks Jonathan – it’s our country, we make the rules under which they act. Under your brilliant analysis the heroine problem in Britain is an Afghani one. Less foreigners so you can breathe the fresh air of civility? There it is. Out in open. Thank you for your honesty.
Queuing at bus stops rather than 3rd world melees. Not worrying about a son getting stabbed over the park. You know, general civility like in a proper country. Less of course doesn’t mean none, just less than 500k pa + “dependents” that can include grandparents and even ex-wives. All minus the student visas # too remember. Ie too many people to be in any way sustainable. It will bring communalism and the balkanisation of the UK and it’s politics. Btw ID cards can be got around easily enough & don’t make a blind bit of difference on the continent. Oh and re the heroin(e) argument I didn’t understand your point frankly.
Queuing at bus stops rather than 3rd world melees. Not worrying about a son getting stabbed over the park. You know, general civility like in a proper country. Less of course doesn’t mean none, just less than 500k pa + “dependents” that can include grandparents and even ex-wives. All minus the student visas # too remember. Ie too many people to be in any way sustainable. It will bring communalism and the balkanisation of the UK and it’s politics. Btw ID cards can be got around easily enough & don’t make a blind bit of difference on the continent. Oh and re the heroin(e) argument I didn’t understand your point frankly.
It’s not a question of our banks Jonathan – it’s our country, we make the rules under which they act. Under your brilliant analysis the heroine problem in Britain is an Afghani one. Less foreigners so you can breathe the fresh air of civility? There it is. Out in open. Thank you for your honesty.
and the boutique investment firms, law chambers, and PR firms providing a one -stop shop for kleptocrats are all ours. Not even my mainpoint – the crimes you mentioned are already illegal, is fundamentally an issue of policing not immigration per se, and were going on here in Blighty even when Bulgaria was in full Soviet lockdown. So I say two things – enforce law properly (with id cards, repatriation etc); and don’t scapegoat the outsider for our failings (personal & political problem).
…
“Our banks”. It’s a global world we’re told. All I ask for is less foreigners and more space to breathe the same fresh air of civility I had growing up.
and the boutique investment firms, law chambers, and PR firms providing a one -stop shop for kleptocrats are all ours. Not even my mainpoint – the crimes you mentioned are already illegal, is fundamentally an issue of policing not immigration per se, and were going on here in Blighty even when Bulgaria was in full Soviet lockdown. So I say two things – enforce law properly (with id cards, repatriation etc); and don’t scapegoat the outsider for our failings (personal & political problem).
Well said.
Quite so Jonathan – they’re all so vulgar. Such second-rate money launderers compared with our glorious banks, PR agencies and law chambers- not for nothing is Blighty known as the concierge to the World’s best criminals. I long for the old days of Empire when we were free to make billions from them and not the other way around!
Well said.
Blithely mentions the drug & trafficking as just you know, part of what they come to do, but hey, there’s some builders too! How naive and how stereotypically dull in that NeoLiberal way to not understand how pervasive and endemic Albanian Organised Crime is? Those cafe bars, those hairdressers, those “Italian” restaurants you no doubt also have now in your part of the UK, heck, even the “scaffolding business” mentioned most likely. Think they’re all legit, nothing to do with laundering, and likely to pay their fair share in taxes etc dopey? The biggest shame in my life I see in my Fifties now is how stupid, gullible and downright smug and sanctimonious the younger, never had it easier generation are that they blithely accept all of this cockroaching of the UK and Western Europe generally and feel somehow doing so makes them a “good person”. Oh you’re not a Hater are you, some dullard who thinks he’s so so smart will cry… We’ll yes, you have to be given the direction of travel that’s being forced on us. Fyour globalism. We’re virtual now, they can get “jobs” online, stay where they are and build their middle class that way, I say. India,
Nigeria, Albania, all of them…Crushed getting in a concert? Hmmm they were trying to force their way in, they were just “excited/confident/misunderstood/disrespected” (insert excuse)…Knife crime and drug & sex trafficking gangs… Hmmm when & how did that suddenly became such a mainstream everyday “thing”…. Wasn’t the case 20 years ago, but my how were so much more “Diverse” now and yet still can’t smell the coffee? So wonderful being so stupid and craven isn’t it guys & girls? Nice cosy smug feeling inside. F helping, F off. On our terms it needs to be done or we’re the ones done for. Billions & billions already sent in aid, donorship to IFIs, expertise etc etc. if you can’t sort yourself out from that generous helping hand, tough. We never had it off you. Cut inbound migration massively in the next 5 years or the “UK” is fkd. Oh & happy, clappy ”Holiday Season” to all you Nigellas & Tristians who might be outraged, maybe try some Albanian delicacy with your turkey tangine & rice, no. Will be oh so educational for the kids… Meanwhile, someone’s kids being sex trafficked into & around the UK. Someone’s kids
getting stabbed by a disrespected wannabe gangsta born in Lagos, who arrived aged 8. White
Supremacist society that is the UK. Yada yada yada. Go fk yourselves NeoLiberals, you’ve created this crap.
An interesting tableau. Not exactly filling me with delight at the prospect of thousands more making it across, but still.
On a slightly related subject, I had an idea this morning – realistically the Rwanda plan will never work because any British judge would shut it down over ‘human rights’ and British MPs are too spineless to ever change any law in a way the public might like. However, we own South Georgia. No-one lives there and it’s entirely under British jurisdiction. Why not build a processing centre there? For the cost of a few buildings and some jet fuel for the RAF it seems like it would have much the same effect. Probably have to do a few environmental impact surveys to ensure the penguins are looked after but otherwise it seems like a winner to me.
You don’t need to go as far as South Georgia. An island in the Outer Hebrides would do just as well. Barra Head or Mingulay, effectively just as inaccessible. Migrants caught in the Channel could be taken straight to the island by ship, without touching the British mainland.
One word answer for why that won’t work: Holyrood. Imagine how many Christmases all coming at once that would be equivalent to for the SNP!
One word answer for why that won’t work: Holyrood. Imagine how many Christmases all coming at once that would be equivalent to for the SNP!
At first I thought this is someone jsut taking the p**s – then I realised he really meant it.
Indeed. Some people’s views of their fellow humans are just so toxic
There are a curiously high number of them on Unherd comments. They seem not to have noticed that the articles are centrist, balanced, and well informed – and so this may not be their home.
As I said, it was an interesting article.
I’m sure well-balanced centrists like us would agree that a successful response to illegal Channel migration would deter people from trying (and getting £20k into debt to people smugglers – Christ help them), keep them within British jurisdiction while their cases were pending (so they’re being treated in a way we deem legal), and prevent them from putting down roots in the meantime to strengthen their cases when they were eventually heard (creating the perverse incentive to enter illegaly and at great risk)? If you have an alternative proposal that does those things better than mine, I’m all ears! All I’ve had back so far from people who disagree is “wow, just wow.”
On the other hand, if what you’re looking for is “those poor poor Albanians, anything short of bringing them all across and renaming Guildford to New Tirana in their honour is a crime against humanity!” then you may find the Guardian’s comment section more amenable to your kind of centrism.
Nope, just send them back to Bulgaria – no need for offshore processing in Rwanda or Diego Garcia, nor anxieties about renaming Guildford. Say it’s my imagination if you will, but there is more than a whiff of xenophobia about – not professional, practical so much as outrage.
Nope, just send them back to Bulgaria – no need for offshore processing in Rwanda or Diego Garcia, nor anxieties about renaming Guildford. Say it’s my imagination if you will, but there is more than a whiff of xenophobia about – not professional, practical so much as outrage.
Alternatively not yours either?
not really Charles, the articles are clearly broad centrist, progressive, elite, as are many comments. Several though, a near majority, lurch conspiracy theorist, ‘swivel eyed loons’, alternative fact Trumpers. Not just me who’s observed that, though it’s fairly self evident. I guess they’ve nowhere else to go, and a few honest articles on trans problems so delights their inner Colonel Blimp.
Surprised to read your rather elitist comments on the elitism of this community – and the name-calling, such as ‘swivel eyed loons’, betrays not only your sense of superiority but also an intellectual inability to join the debate without resorting to your own brand of populist rhetoric. If the Unherd community offend you so much I do wonder why you subscribe? We enjoy a verbal scuffle but offensive rants belong in other publications.
We do enjoy a verbal scuffle, which is what I’m doing. Not offensive, but engaging. Perhaps you already know – the term ‘swivel eyed loons’ was coined by a Conservative party operative to describe to David Cameron & others at the table, his view of the activists in their own party. If you think that is an offensive rant, and I am the one responsible….take another look. Just yesterday an American commenter in response to my saying that American freedoms sometimes overreached, told me he’d like to express his American freedom my engaging his fist and my face. Funny. Anyway, I tend to take my lead from ‘elite’ sources – the alternative is trumpeting your own feelings, ‘common sense’, or anecdotal experience, without wide study. Which is more arrogant I wonder?
(Comment seems to have duplicated)
You seem like an interesting chap. I retract my prior snark: you’re either so terminal a case of Guardian-brain as to be beyond saving, or so brilliant a troll that I’m kicking myself for falling for it.
Either way, I’ll see you on the next article.
(Comment seems to have duplicated)
You seem like an interesting chap. I retract my prior snark: you’re either so terminal a case of Guardian-brain as to be beyond saving, or so brilliant a troll that I’m kicking myself for falling for it.
Either way, I’ll see you on the next article.
We do enjoy a verbal scuffle, which is what I’m doing. Not offensive, but engaging. Perhaps you already know – the term ‘swivel eyed loons’ was coined by a Conservative party operative to describe to David Cameron & others at the table, his view of the activists in their own party. If you think that is an offensive rant, and I am the one responsible….take another look. Just yesterday an American commenter in response to my saying that American freedoms sometimes overreached, told me he’d like to express his American freedom my engaging his fist and my face. Funny. Anyway, I tend to take my lead from ‘elite’ sources – the alternative is trumpeting your own feelings, ‘common sense’, or anecdotal experience, without wide study. Which is more arrogant I wonder?
Surprised to read your rather elitist comments on the elitism of this community – and the name-calling, such as ‘swivel eyed loons’, betrays not only your sense of superiority but also an intellectual inability to join the debate without resorting to your own brand of populist rhetoric. If the Unherd community offend you so much I do wonder why you subscribe? We enjoy a verbal scuffle but offensive rants belong in other publications.
not really Charles, the articles are clearly broad centrist, progressive, elite, as are many comments. Several though, a near majority, lurch conspiracy theorist, ‘swivel eyed loons’, alternative fact Trumpers. Not just me who’s observed that, though it’s fairly self evident. I guess they’ve nowhere else to go, and a few honest articles on trans problems so delights their inner Colonel Blimp.
As I said, it was an interesting article.
I’m sure well-balanced centrists like us would agree that a successful response to illegal Channel migration would deter people from trying (and getting £20k into debt to people smugglers – Christ help them), keep them within British jurisdiction while their cases were pending (so they’re being treated in a way we deem legal), and prevent them from putting down roots in the meantime to strengthen their cases when they were eventually heard (creating the perverse incentive to enter illegaly and at great risk)? If you have an alternative proposal that does those things better than mine, I’m all ears! All I’ve had back so far from people who disagree is “wow, just wow.”
On the other hand, if what you’re looking for is “those poor poor Albanians, anything short of bringing them all across and renaming Guildford to New Tirana in their honour is a crime against humanity!” then you may find the Guardian’s comment section more amenable to your kind of centrism.
Alternatively not yours either?
Some people need to get out more.
You seriously need to get out more. On a number of occasions in a number of continents, I have noticed our fellow humans looking at me (us) as a mark. There was nothing remotely kind in there actions.
The sad reality is that many perceive the West and Westerners to be a lot wealthier than we are.
There are a curiously high number of them on Unherd comments. They seem not to have noticed that the articles are centrist, balanced, and well informed – and so this may not be their home.
Some people need to get out more.
You seriously need to get out more. On a number of occasions in a number of continents, I have noticed our fellow humans looking at me (us) as a mark. There was nothing remotely kind in there actions.
The sad reality is that many perceive the West and Westerners to be a lot wealthier than we are.
Indeed. Some people’s views of their fellow humans are just so toxic
Ascension Island is only half as far and much nicer weather than South Georgia. Hardly anyone lives there either and it’s British. But on second thoughts.. South Georgia is probably better!
What about St Helena? It was good enough for Napoleon Bonaparte Esq!
I think he was a His Imperial Majesty, rather than an Esquire.
Shall we compromise on ‘His Imperial Majesty’ (failed)?
Shall we compromise on ‘His Imperial Majesty’ (failed)?
I think he was a His Imperial Majesty, rather than an Esquire.
This is all fantasy unfortunately. British politicians don’t have the guts or ability to get out of the ‘human rights’ minefield, which is the real issue here (the Tories are after all at least half comprised of uber-liberals). So Ascension or South Georgia will work just as well as Rwanda, that is, they won’t! It will make no difference whether the refugees are held on British territory or not.
What about St Helena? It was good enough for Napoleon Bonaparte Esq!
This is all fantasy unfortunately. British politicians don’t have the guts or ability to get out of the ‘human rights’ minefield, which is the real issue here (the Tories are after all at least half comprised of uber-liberals). So Ascension or South Georgia will work just as well as Rwanda, that is, they won’t! It will make no difference whether the refugees are held on British territory or not.
I’d dump them all on Diego Garcia but we bizarrely deported all of the locals and gave the Americans a free naval base there, so it’s already occupied.
You don’t need to go as far as South Georgia. An island in the Outer Hebrides would do just as well. Barra Head or Mingulay, effectively just as inaccessible. Migrants caught in the Channel could be taken straight to the island by ship, without touching the British mainland.
At first I thought this is someone jsut taking the p**s – then I realised he really meant it.
Ascension Island is only half as far and much nicer weather than South Georgia. Hardly anyone lives there either and it’s British. But on second thoughts.. South Georgia is probably better!
I’d dump them all on Diego Garcia but we bizarrely deported all of the locals and gave the Americans a free naval base there, so it’s already occupied.
An interesting tableau. Not exactly filling me with delight at the prospect of thousands more making it across, but still.
On a slightly related subject, I had an idea this morning – realistically the Rwanda plan will never work because any British judge would shut it down over ‘human rights’ and British MPs are too spineless to ever change any law in a way the public might like. However, we own South Georgia. No-one lives there and it’s entirely under British jurisdiction. Why not build a processing centre there? For the cost of a few buildings and some jet fuel for the RAF it seems like it would have much the same effect. Probably have to do a few environmental impact surveys to ensure the penguins are looked after but otherwise it seems like a winner to me.
When people come from abroad to work in the UK, and various figures are bandied about, about the various merits to the national GDP of ever more workers, do the bean counters ever consider, quantify and reveal, the amount of money that leaves the UK economy, to support the economies of other countries, or do the people in charge, just ‘quietly’ consider this part of ‘our’ reparations for past misdemeanours ?
I am, just about, old enough to remember ‘foreign allowance restrictions’ from before 1979, when limits were put on the amount of money that a person could take out of the country.
I was living and working in Germany when they finished paying off the WW1 reparations. Which was amusing to me at the time considering I was born well after it and my family was on the winning side.
In hindsight, reparations are not right or fair. If we objectively weighed up all the misery and heartache by everyone’s ancestors, I recon that we are all even. The time has come to let the past be a lesson and not an excuse to bully white people.
Good point. Also, has anybody bothered to do the calculation as to how much, on averge, an individual has to earn (and therefore pay back in tax) to be a net contributor to the economy?
I find it impossible to believe that low skilled workers on minimum wage aren’t costing the country a great deal more than they contribute. And if this is the case – then why in gods name are we importing cities worth of these people year on year?
There in lies the Ponzi scheme, more population (working) creates more GDP
So long as GDP is growing, tax grows & governments can spend more
But if GDP per head of population is falling you need ever more immigration to fuel the beast, to remain one step ahead of paying your debts
Exactly how a Ponzi scheme works
Divide and rule. Closely followed by replacement.
I did investigate the question and to be a net contributor, paying more in tax than you take out, you have to earn over £48k per annum, more if you have children
Hardly surprising when the top 1% of earners pay more than a third of income tax
There are many other taxes and levies that people pay on top of income tax though, the example you use is simply deflection to make it appear the wealthy are hard done by. As a proportion to the money they earn and wealth they hold I’d argue the 1% get off incredibly lightly
I think I need to correct you. As usual your prejudices and spite is obscuring your perception of reality.
I dug out the research regarding now much tax you would have to pay in order to be a net contributor because I was curious.
There are not may other taxes and levies that make a material difference. NI does not kick in until £12k pa VAT is not payable on food and is only 5% on domestic energy. So what other any taxes and levies are there.
I pointed out that the top the 1% pay more than a third of income tax not to make it seem that the top 1% are hard done by. If I was intending to make a point it would be that it is precarious, foolish and dishonest to have a tax system that depends on such a small percentage of the population. By the way I have been a net contributor since my late 20s but do not earn enough to be in the top 1%, nowhere near enough.
Foolish and dishonest since you can’t go on funding ever increasing government spending on the basis that someone else (“the rich”) should pay for it. As we have already seen, as a result of paying asked to pay too much tax many of our wonderful GPs are retiring or going part time in their mid to late 40s. Do you think the same thing does not apply to other people in the same earnings bracket, and the country is very dependent on these people for its prosperity and to keep it going.
Foolish and dishonest because you cannot have a system where a very large percentage of the population benefit from public services but are effectively immune from having to meet the cost of those services.
As to the 1% getting off incredibly lightly what evidence do you have for this? They already pay far more tax than an average member of the public so how much more should they pay and what is the justification for this?
There are always exceptions, and I do not include the public sector in what I am about to say, but people earing £150K pa will earn it. My observation is that they get where they are on merit, work like dogs (no 40 hour weeks), they make large personal sacrifices, they work under enormous pressure their contribution is out of proportion and without them organization fail. Give an average person a month in the role at the same salary and I suspect they would quickly walk away.
I think I need to correct you. As usual your prejudices and spite is obscuring your perception of reality.
I dug out the research regarding now much tax you would have to pay in order to be a net contributor because I was curious.
There are not may other taxes and levies that make a material difference. NI does not kick in until £12k pa VAT is not payable on food and is only 5% on domestic energy. So what other any taxes and levies are there.
I pointed out that the top the 1% pay more than a third of income tax not to make it seem that the top 1% are hard done by. If I was intending to make a point it would be that it is precarious, foolish and dishonest to have a tax system that depends on such a small percentage of the population. By the way I have been a net contributor since my late 20s but do not earn enough to be in the top 1%, nowhere near enough.
Foolish and dishonest since you can’t go on funding ever increasing government spending on the basis that someone else (“the rich”) should pay for it. As we have already seen, as a result of paying asked to pay too much tax many of our wonderful GPs are retiring or going part time in their mid to late 40s. Do you think the same thing does not apply to other people in the same earnings bracket, and the country is very dependent on these people for its prosperity and to keep it going.
Foolish and dishonest because you cannot have a system where a very large percentage of the population benefit from public services but are effectively immune from having to meet the cost of those services.
As to the 1% getting off incredibly lightly what evidence do you have for this? They already pay far more tax than an average member of the public so how much more should they pay and what is the justification for this?
There are always exceptions, and I do not include the public sector in what I am about to say, but people earing £150K pa will earn it. My observation is that they get where they are on merit, work like dogs (no 40 hour weeks), they make large personal sacrifices, they work under enormous pressure their contribution is out of proportion and without them organization fail. Give an average person a month in the role at the same salary and I suspect they would quickly walk away.
There are many other taxes and levies that people pay on top of income tax though, the example you use is simply deflection to make it appear the wealthy are hard done by. As a proportion to the money they earn and wealth they hold I’d argue the 1% get off incredibly lightly
There in lies the Ponzi scheme, more population (working) creates more GDP
So long as GDP is growing, tax grows & governments can spend more
But if GDP per head of population is falling you need ever more immigration to fuel the beast, to remain one step ahead of paying your debts
Exactly how a Ponzi scheme works
Divide and rule. Closely followed by replacement.
I did investigate the question and to be a net contributor, paying more in tax than you take out, you have to earn over £48k per annum, more if you have children
Hardly surprising when the top 1% of earners pay more than a third of income tax
I’m unclear why many commenters here seem to assume that Albanian migration is necessarily a problem for the UK. According to latest ONS figures there were 1.18 million vacancies in the UK, and they are not being filled by British unemployed people. So if someone wants to come to Britain, work hard, abide by our laws, respect our customs, and pay their taxes – and perhaps even start a scaffolding or other such business that might even employ local people and add value – what’s the problem? If you are worried about money “leaving” our country in remittances you also ought to be worried about it leaving to pay for Brits’ foreign holidays or all of the tat we buy from China (with a profit margin for the American tech company that facilitates the transaction of course). And by your own logic you ought to be much more worried about an immigrant earning, and potentially “taking out”, £100 per hour than one who earns just £10 an hour.
Most Albanians are in the UK illegally – which means they cannot work legally – hence they pay nothing into the system and do not fill advertised job vacancies. Don’t kid yourself.
And the money they send home has come from either taxpayers, or People on benefits, thereby reducing the overall flow of cash in the economy and increasing the need for higher taxes.
Have you notice how many Kurdish barbers have sprung up in the last 3 or 4 years. Only their business is money laundering rather than cutting hair
The worst possible situation for the host country. No taxes paid, only services used and money leaving its borders.
And the money they send home has come from either taxpayers, or People on benefits, thereby reducing the overall flow of cash in the economy and increasing the need for higher taxes.
Have you notice how many Kurdish barbers have sprung up in the last 3 or 4 years. Only their business is money laundering rather than cutting hair
The worst possible situation for the host country. No taxes paid, only services used and money leaving its borders.
Interesting that the number of job vacancies do not seem to have been reduced by 400,000.
Most Albanians are in the UK illegally – which means they cannot work legally – hence they pay nothing into the system and do not fill advertised job vacancies. Don’t kid yourself.
Interesting that the number of job vacancies do not seem to have been reduced by 400,000.
I was allowed £50 going to the USA for a month in 1973. Airfare on panam was £60 return and £60 for the greyhound bus ticket
I was living and working in Germany when they finished paying off the WW1 reparations. Which was amusing to me at the time considering I was born well after it and my family was on the winning side.
In hindsight, reparations are not right or fair. If we objectively weighed up all the misery and heartache by everyone’s ancestors, I recon that we are all even. The time has come to let the past be a lesson and not an excuse to bully white people.
Good point. Also, has anybody bothered to do the calculation as to how much, on averge, an individual has to earn (and therefore pay back in tax) to be a net contributor to the economy?
I find it impossible to believe that low skilled workers on minimum wage aren’t costing the country a great deal more than they contribute. And if this is the case – then why in gods name are we importing cities worth of these people year on year?
I’m unclear why many commenters here seem to assume that Albanian migration is necessarily a problem for the UK. According to latest ONS figures there were 1.18 million vacancies in the UK, and they are not being filled by British unemployed people. So if someone wants to come to Britain, work hard, abide by our laws, respect our customs, and pay their taxes – and perhaps even start a scaffolding or other such business that might even employ local people and add value – what’s the problem? If you are worried about money “leaving” our country in remittances you also ought to be worried about it leaving to pay for Brits’ foreign holidays or all of the tat we buy from China (with a profit margin for the American tech company that facilitates the transaction of course). And by your own logic you ought to be much more worried about an immigrant earning, and potentially “taking out”, £100 per hour than one who earns just £10 an hour.
I was allowed £50 going to the USA for a month in 1973. Airfare on panam was £60 return and £60 for the greyhound bus ticket
When people come from abroad to work in the UK, and various figures are bandied about, about the various merits to the national GDP of ever more workers, do the bean counters ever consider, quantify and reveal, the amount of money that leaves the UK economy, to support the economies of other countries, or do the people in charge, just ‘quietly’ consider this part of ‘our’ reparations for past misdemeanours ?
I am, just about, old enough to remember ‘foreign allowance restrictions’ from before 1979, when limits were put on the amount of money that a person could take out of the country.
Don’t you think it’s all too late? Albanians are settled and earning in Britain, their GDP depends on their remittances, why would the Albanian government cut off this supply of money? Whatever the British do, while we have no ID card system and our laws are so lax, Albanians will continue to come.
Albanians have dribbled into Greece half my life and hidden in the pine forests, scratching work here and there, running criminal gangs, being arrested as illegals and tossed out, only to return. Nothing holds them in their own country.
As the Greeks know only too well, they have no spiritual guidance any more – that was removed by Communism – therefore they conflict with Greece’s strong Orthodox Christian ethos; meaning they are seen as fundamentally rogue criminals without beliefs or conscience.
Unless there is a concerted effort to create a facsimile of Britain in Albania, where education, work, pay and a decent life are all catered for, they will continue to leave the country.
It would be cheaper to create such a place than to have them in Britain’s hotels and prisons, surely?
We do not want ID cards in the UK ever.
You should understand the reasons for that.
Almost all of the illegals have NO ID, because they have destroyed their passports.
Ok, but know that id cards are the only realistic way of enforcing immigration breaches. A far more powerful tool than leaving the EU. The rest of Western Europe manages it without descending into police states – but then, to a certain mindset, the problem is foreigners and foreign things…
We do need ID cards. One reason for mass migration into Britain, as is mentioned in this article, is our lack of the ID cards which are standard in continental Europe. Whether the immigrants arrive with or without an ID document, they can easily disappear into the black economy (including crime). Lacking traceable ID documentation, our government has no idea who is in the country. How can you run a welfare state on that basis, or organise education, healthcare and housing?
So how do these ID cards work? Do you have to carry these “papers” on your person at all times? If not then they serve absolutely no purpose surely?
I carry my driving licence with me at all times. Another card would not be a hindrance.
So what should the punishment be for not carrying this new ID card? Say you nip to the shop for some milk, or wander down the local for a pint and forget to carry it, should you be fined/tagged/imprisoned etc?
All sounds a bit Gestapo to me personally
So what should the punishment be for not carrying this new ID card? Say you nip to the shop for some milk, or wander down the local for a pint and forget to carry it, should you be fined/tagged/imprisoned etc?
All sounds a bit Gestapo to me personally
I carry my driving licence with me at all times. Another card would not be a hindrance.
So how do these ID cards work? Do you have to carry these “papers” on your person at all times? If not then they serve absolutely no purpose surely?
So, Dominic A, who exactly are those with a certain mindset, who think the problem is foreigners and all foreign things ?
Maybe they live rent free in your head ?
Oh, so I’ve invented xenophobia, as a psychological and political phenomenon? Huh, I was sure I read something about it; maybe that was just a bad dream. I’ll have to discuss it with my psychiatrist. Oh, wait, here’s an example from this very page – “All I ask for for is less foreigners and more space tl breathe the same fresh air of civility I had growing up.”.
Oh, so I’ve invented xenophobia, as a psychological and political phenomenon? Huh, I was sure I read something about it; maybe that was just a bad dream. I’ll have to discuss it with my psychiatrist. Oh, wait, here’s an example from this very page – “All I ask for for is less foreigners and more space tl breathe the same fresh air of civility I had growing up.”.
Polling generally indicates ‘we’ do want id cards. I guess because it is likely to help the fight against illegal immigration, employment, benefit fraud, and NHS tourism. The second in your comment rather proves the point – the illegals don’t want their passports because it makes gaming the system harder. I’m assuming that you are of right politically, Brexit supporter? If so, you seem caught in a classic double-bind (if not please do not take the following as critical): blaming the EU for immigration whilst it was our politicians that wanted the immigration (economy), and lie to us about that (politics). Now that we have broken with the EU, and immigration has gone up, blame goes to our politicians, often by people who still refuse the realistic means to deal with the issue – id cards for example, or allowing those awaiting visa judgement to work, and then bemoaning government spending on them. This is populism in action – half-baked emotive reasoning, rejection of workable (elite opinion; what works in other countries) in favour of ‘pure’ (ie fantastical. never tested or succeeded) solutions. It’s the right-wing version of wokery – whiny emotional rejection of democratic and enlightenment values coupled with a deep lack of appreciation of what we’ve got and achieved, and how we got there.
As one who held an ID card all the time I was living in France (five years), I actually don’t understand the reasons for not having them.
If they’re coming to the UK because we don’t require people to carry ID cards, I’d say that’s a [pretty good reason to introduce them.
Traditional English liberties don’t work in a diverse, globalised society. We need to know how many people, from where, and why.
ID cards aren’t some kind of magical tracking device. They wouldn’t enable us to know how many people are in our country, from where, and they certainly wouldn’t tell us why.
Illegal immigrants wouldn’t even use ID cards and would continue to work in illegal jobs which don’t require them.
The only thing that solve the problem is proper enforcement of our borders.
I don’t see why the answer to the Government not enforcing its immigration laws is that law abiding citizens here should lose our liberties.
ID cards aren’t some kind of magical tracking device. They wouldn’t enable us to know how many people are in our country, from where, and they certainly wouldn’t tell us why.
Illegal immigrants wouldn’t even use ID cards and would continue to work in illegal jobs which don’t require them.
The only thing that solve the problem is proper enforcement of our borders.
I don’t see why the answer to the Government not enforcing its immigration laws is that law abiding citizens here should lose our liberties.
Ok, but know that id cards are the only realistic way of enforcing immigration breaches. A far more powerful tool than leaving the EU. The rest of Western Europe manages it without descending into police states – but then, to a certain mindset, the problem is foreigners and foreign things…
We do need ID cards. One reason for mass migration into Britain, as is mentioned in this article, is our lack of the ID cards which are standard in continental Europe. Whether the immigrants arrive with or without an ID document, they can easily disappear into the black economy (including crime). Lacking traceable ID documentation, our government has no idea who is in the country. How can you run a welfare state on that basis, or organise education, healthcare and housing?
So, Dominic A, who exactly are those with a certain mindset, who think the problem is foreigners and all foreign things ?
Maybe they live rent free in your head ?
Polling generally indicates ‘we’ do want id cards. I guess because it is likely to help the fight against illegal immigration, employment, benefit fraud, and NHS tourism. The second in your comment rather proves the point – the illegals don’t want their passports because it makes gaming the system harder. I’m assuming that you are of right politically, Brexit supporter? If so, you seem caught in a classic double-bind (if not please do not take the following as critical): blaming the EU for immigration whilst it was our politicians that wanted the immigration (economy), and lie to us about that (politics). Now that we have broken with the EU, and immigration has gone up, blame goes to our politicians, often by people who still refuse the realistic means to deal with the issue – id cards for example, or allowing those awaiting visa judgement to work, and then bemoaning government spending on them. This is populism in action – half-baked emotive reasoning, rejection of workable (elite opinion; what works in other countries) in favour of ‘pure’ (ie fantastical. never tested or succeeded) solutions. It’s the right-wing version of wokery – whiny emotional rejection of democratic and enlightenment values coupled with a deep lack of appreciation of what we’ve got and achieved, and how we got there.
As one who held an ID card all the time I was living in France (five years), I actually don’t understand the reasons for not having them.
If they’re coming to the UK because we don’t require people to carry ID cards, I’d say that’s a [pretty good reason to introduce them.
Traditional English liberties don’t work in a diverse, globalised society. We need to know how many people, from where, and why.
I seem to recall your place of residence receiving a rather large bail-out from the EU when the economy tanked. Do as you would be done by.
The bail out was to the German and French banks that had unwisely lent money in Greece. Greeks got nothing from it except for a bunch of accountant gauleiters ‘supervising’ their government finances (that is to say enforcing a severe economic depression).
The bail out was to the German and French banks that had unwisely lent money in Greece. Greeks got nothing from it except for a bunch of accountant gauleiters ‘supervising’ their government finances (that is to say enforcing a severe economic depression).
We do not want ID cards in the UK ever.
You should understand the reasons for that.
Almost all of the illegals have NO ID, because they have destroyed their passports.
I seem to recall your place of residence receiving a rather large bail-out from the EU when the economy tanked. Do as you would be done by.
Don’t you think it’s all too late? Albanians are settled and earning in Britain, their GDP depends on their remittances, why would the Albanian government cut off this supply of money? Whatever the British do, while we have no ID card system and our laws are so lax, Albanians will continue to come.
Albanians have dribbled into Greece half my life and hidden in the pine forests, scratching work here and there, running criminal gangs, being arrested as illegals and tossed out, only to return. Nothing holds them in their own country.
As the Greeks know only too well, they have no spiritual guidance any more – that was removed by Communism – therefore they conflict with Greece’s strong Orthodox Christian ethos; meaning they are seen as fundamentally rogue criminals without beliefs or conscience.
Unless there is a concerted effort to create a facsimile of Britain in Albania, where education, work, pay and a decent life are all catered for, they will continue to leave the country.
It would be cheaper to create such a place than to have them in Britain’s hotels and prisons, surely?
You would think there would be a lesson here for the guardians in the BBC, that it is easier to rip out an old culture than it is to create a new one.
Well said!
Well said!
You would think there would be a lesson here for the guardians in the BBC, that it is easier to rip out an old culture than it is to create a new one.
Very interesting, thank you. However, UnHerd, can we add more pictures? I am sure the author has loads.
Very interesting, thank you. However, UnHerd, can we add more pictures? I am sure the author has loads.
Today in Britain, we’re all Albanians, at least I feel like one. The last 31 years have been disastrous for our country as well, that’s my opinion anyway.
Today in Britain, we’re all Albanians, at least I feel like one. The last 31 years have been disastrous for our country as well, that’s my opinion anyway.
I’m sorry to point out a glaring inconsistency, but at one point an interviewee says regarding the two types of locals: “The first are the majority: honest, hard-working people, driven to it out of economic necessity” Then in the same paragraph: “He mentions my hotel, which is filled with African migrants employed to help construct a local bridge. “Ask yourself why in a town of such high unemployment there are no locals. They don’t want to work there.” Doesn’t quite stack up. I’m sure their lives are hard, but if they can’t be fxxked to fix their own country what makes us think they’re going to help us build ours?
Maybe for the same reasons that are several hundred Brits working abroad, and yet millions of foreigners work in UK agriculture, services, NHS. They are paid and worked in a way the locals would not tolerate – here and there.
Maybe for the same reasons that are several hundred Brits working abroad, and yet millions of foreigners work in UK agriculture, services, NHS. They are paid and worked in a way the locals would not tolerate – here and there.
I’m sorry to point out a glaring inconsistency, but at one point an interviewee says regarding the two types of locals: “The first are the majority: honest, hard-working people, driven to it out of economic necessity” Then in the same paragraph: “He mentions my hotel, which is filled with African migrants employed to help construct a local bridge. “Ask yourself why in a town of such high unemployment there are no locals. They don’t want to work there.” Doesn’t quite stack up. I’m sure their lives are hard, but if they can’t be fxxked to fix their own country what makes us think they’re going to help us build ours?
That was very informative and must have similarities of many other immigrant countries. One question is how rich countries can reduce the flow by improving the structures in these countries. Not easy or quick. I guess EU membership would help them but at what cost to the EU?
This was one of the reasons I voted to leave. The EU already had the best bits of Europe, so what was left?
Investing in your competition, always a winner 🙂 like when Microsoft invested in Apple years ago as a protection against being accused of being a monopoly…. Eventually Apple ate their lunch!
This was one of the reasons I voted to leave. The EU already had the best bits of Europe, so what was left?
Investing in your competition, always a winner 🙂 like when Microsoft invested in Apple years ago as a protection against being accused of being a monopoly…. Eventually Apple ate their lunch!
That was very informative and must have similarities of many other immigrant countries. One question is how rich countries can reduce the flow by improving the structures in these countries. Not easy or quick. I guess EU membership would help them but at what cost to the EU?
‘…strange things happen when societies no longer believe in anything.’ –
Which is fully as true of the United Kingdom as it is of Albania.
‘…strange things happen when societies no longer believe in anything.’ –
Which is fully as true of the United Kingdom as it is of Albania.
For every pound that gets sent home, there is one pound less to spend in the British economy.
This can only go one way.
For every pound that gets sent home, there is one pound less to spend in the British economy.
This can only go one way.
I thought I would look up some of this author’s work before attending his and Fazi’s event later this month. This article melds narrative-style observation and economic/political commentary beautifully. I felt so sad for the depleted morale of Has (‘Little London’). It reminded me of the illegal Vietnamese immigrants in Australia who come with hopes of a ‘better life’ only to fall into illicit activity and abusive personal and professional relationships.
For people living in impoverished towns outside the Anglophone and Western European world, the West appears to be a bountiful mirage where people can ‘get rich quick’. It’s easy for outsiders to criticise the fanciful nature of such aspirations. Considering psychological defence mechanisms however, the only motivation for young people in a social and economic desert is to imagine a better future. They project their vision onto ‘the West’ whose wonders they’ve read about in books or heard from friends.
I like that the author focuses on the town’s story and doesn’t impose any ideological convictions on it. A radically progressive writer reporting on the same story would quickly conclude with a ‘moral of the story: let’s #bekind and allow limitless immigration – #compassion.’ To shoehorn in such a conclusion is politically unwise. More importantly, it reduces the town and its individuals’ suffering into an ideological game of darts for elites. Sometimes, narrative is the best (and only) way to honour tragic and complex social and political realities. This article demonstrated that so well.
I thought I would look up some of this author’s work before attending his and Fazi’s event later this month. This article melds narrative-style observation and economic/political commentary beautifully. I felt so sad for the depleted morale of Has (‘Little London’). It reminded me of the illegal Vietnamese immigrants in Australia who come with hopes of a ‘better life’ only to fall into illicit activity and abusive personal and professional relationships.
For people living in impoverished towns outside the Anglophone and Western European world, the West appears to be a bountiful mirage where people can ‘get rich quick’. It’s easy for outsiders to criticise the fanciful nature of such aspirations. Considering psychological defence mechanisms however, the only motivation for young people in a social and economic desert is to imagine a better future. They project their vision onto ‘the West’ whose wonders they’ve read about in books or heard from friends.
I like that the author focuses on the town’s story and doesn’t impose any ideological convictions on it. A radically progressive writer reporting on the same story would quickly conclude with a ‘moral of the story: let’s #bekind and allow limitless immigration – #compassion.’ To shoehorn in such a conclusion is politically unwise. More importantly, it reduces the town and its individuals’ suffering into an ideological game of darts for elites. Sometimes, narrative is the best (and only) way to honour tragic and complex social and political realities. This article demonstrated that so well.
So where are the United Nations in all this? The 2015 Sustainable Development Plan signed by all member states sets the ambition of sustainable economic growth in poorer nations, supported growth in the job market and access to health care and education for all? Oh wait I forgot the veto vote of America and the G7 to keep the status quo going and the jobs at home. Hmmm I wonder why the poor nations keep on trying to get here?