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Labour’s grim defence of the sex trade Young Left-wing MPs ignore the exploitative reality

Sex work isn't work. WIktor Szymanowicz/NurPhoto via Getty Images

Sex work isn't work. WIktor Szymanowicz/NurPhoto via Getty Images


December 8, 2022   6 mins

“Men — emboldened by their newfound market power — are becoming more demanding… pushing for unprotected oral and anal sex.” This quote is from the long, voyeuristic read in the Financial Times headlined, “The women turning to sex work to make ends meet”. It’s about prostitution and the cost of living crisis; an uncomfortable read, it ascribes violence and abuse from punters to a failing economy. It paints a grim picture of the sex trade, notwithstanding the sanitised language throughout, such as “sex worker” to describe exploited women, and “customer” for punters.

Julie Swede, a sex trade survivor who was interviewed for the article, is angry that despite making it clear that she wholly rejects the term “sex work”, “because it is abuse, and neither ‘sex’ nor work”, she was described by the two female journalists (Alexandra Heal and Anna Gross) as being “groomed into sex work aged 15 and trafficked by a pimp”. How can a child be a “sex worker”, she asks me. “This is rape and abuse of a minor.” When I made a complaint to the paper, I was thanked for “pointing it out” and told that the wording would be changed.

I despair that I had to point out that referring to a child pimped and trafficked into prostitution was grossly offensive and inappropriate in the first place. But what is becoming clear — and what the female-authored FT article would seem to corroborate — is the way in which so many women are currently bending over backwards to adopt the cool stance that “sex work” is a job like any other.

Nadia Whittome, MP for Nottingham East and the youngest serving MP, elected aged 23, is the epitome of what currently passes for progressive and last week tweeted her support for Hookers against Hardship. This new group describes itself as a “coalition of the major UK sex worker-led orgs, campaigning for more support for sex workers during the cost-of-living crisis”.

This approach may look attractive to those concerned about the human rights of the prostituted person — but selling sex in the UK is not a criminal offence. What Hookers against Hardship and their ilk are calling for is the decriminalisation of all aspects of prostitution, as well as maintaining the legal activity of sex buying. But I know that the claim that prostitution is a job “like any other” does nothing to destigmatise the women involved; what it does is normalise paying for sex and increase the illegal aspects of the sex trade. Blanket decriminalisation means legitimising pimps, punters, and brothel owners.

We know how loudly men will speak up for their own interests; so shouldn’t women (especially those claiming to be feminists) protect women’s? After all, poverty is one of the driving forces that leads to women being exploited into the sex trade, and Whittome’s constituency is ranked as the 42nd most deprived area in the country (of 533 such areas). Surely she realises that the best way to support these women is to “put food in her mouth, and not [a] cock”, as sex trade survivor Rachel Moran said.

Young, female socialists like Whittome seem oblivious to this approach. As she told Channel 4: “I’ll be honest, I don’t really care about the men who are purchasing sex. That’s not what I’m interested in. I care about keeping women who are involved in sex work safe in the here and now. The solution is to fully decriminalise it and tackle the root causes.”

But the root cause is the demand: the men who pay for sex. What the hell does Whittome think makes the women unsafe? I have interviewed pimps, punters, and the prostituted women, and their harm is discussed as though it were an occupational hazard: a stone dropped on the builder’s toe. Rape is the daily occurrence, perpetrated by sex buyers and brothel owners, and the psychological damage as a result of prostitution is well documented.

Unfortunately, Whittome is not the only female MP supporting commercialised sex. Dawn Butler, Charlotte Nichols and Zarah Sultana form the new wave of pro-prostitution Labour MPs, shouting the “sex work is work” mantra from the comfort of their Westminster offices. All are against criminalising the men who create the demand, claiming that it would put the women in more danger. Even though this flies in the face of evidence from those countries where they have focused on the sex buyer as the problem as opposed to the women.

It’s interesting that on the Left, several constituency Labour Parties have passed motions to “decriminalise sex work” and there have even been attempts to unionise the sex industry, and to frame the harm, such as HIV and rape, as “industrial injury” as has happened in New Zealand under decriminalisation. The claim is that treating prostitution as work helps women access resources that can protect them — such as legislation, grievance processes, and officially recognised unions. But unionising prostitution has proved impossible, both in the UK and in countries where it is legal, such as Germany, Holland and Switzerland. This is primarily because women don’t want to register and prostitutes and pimps don’t want to pay taxes.

In 2002, the GMB announced the founding of its Adult Entertainment branch, which began life as the International Union of Sex Workers (IUSW) and was founded by two academics, neither of whom were involved in prostitution. But it was never effective as a union, and operated primarily as a lobbying group for decriminalisation. Academics, sex buyers and pimps were welcomed as IUSW members, and the main spokesperson in the early days was Douglas Fox, co-owner of Christony Companions — a large escort agency based in northeast England which carried IUSW as a “kitemark” on its advertising.

Whittome has taken her fight for “sex worker rights” outside of her own constituency. She was delighted when feminists lost their fight to put a cap on lap dance clubs in Bristol, despite evidence that men outside the clubs sexually harass women on their way home. Great for working-class female office cleaners coming off night shifts.

There is a way forward for these women. What is effective in terms of reducing the harms done to them in the sex trade is what is known as the Nordic Model. This approach has been tried and tested since 1999 in several countries, including Sweden, Norway, France, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and, more recently, Israel. Under these laws, the demand is criminalised, and the prostituted person assisted out of the sex trade if she or he so wishes. It is a human rights approach and effective in reducing trafficking, and the sexual exploitation of children. Research from the London School of Economics found that legalisation of the sex trade increases both. The commercial sexual exploitation of children is rife, for example, the buying and selling of Albanian refugee children in Kent.

Why is it, then, that so many prominent female politicians believe that further normalising sex markets is a better alternative to clamping down on the men who drive the demand?

Caroline Lucas, a former Green Party leader used to steadfastly support the Nordic model. She told me, back in 2008, that she wanted to see an end to the sex trade because she understood it as sexual exploitation, and a barrier to equality between women and men. But in 2016, Lucas met with trans activist Paris Lees (who is of the view that feminists campaigning to end prostitution are all white pearl-clutchers), having been admonished by her on Twitter. Following that meeting, Lucas performed an about turn and has since supported the campaign to decriminalise pimps, brothel owners and punters.

Natalie Bennett (another party leader) is also a vocal supporter of blanket decriminalisation. She has spoken of “sex work” as part of the model known as “green economics” — which “works for the benefit of all people everywhere, for the planet, the biosphere, non-human species, nature, and other life forms”. How wonderful to hear that men paying to access the inside of a woman’s body are helping the environment. In a paper entitled, “Sex work: a survey of social, philosophical and human rights issues” (2009), Bennett takes issue with the idea that sex buyers should be criminalised, calling this approach a “response to hysteria and the half-disguised exercising of religious-based moral views now rejected by the majority of this democratic society”.

Moral views? Unlike the pro-prostitution lobby, whose members speak of “safe sex”, the many women who have escaped could tell you about the morality of their industry in great detail: the hideous smell of the punters, the pain of a dry, bruised vagina being penetrated multiple times, the anaesthetic cream applied to genitals to endure “shifts”, the imprisonment — Tina sold sex from high-end London hotels for years and was forced to sleep in handcuffs every night.

Whittome and others who claim to be motivated by socialist and feminist principles should take a hard look at the reality of the global sex trade, a trade that is built on the extreme exploitation of the most disenfranchised women. Perhaps, then, they might understand the hypocrisy of their position.

 ***

Order your copy of UnHerd’s first print edition here


Julie Bindel is an investigative journalist, author, and feminist campaigner. Her latest book is Feminism for Women: The Real Route to Liberation. She also writes on Substack.

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Jim Jam
Jim Jam
1 year ago

The key acheivements of third and forthwave feminism:

Allowing women, en masse, to be used for sex and then discarded at the first opportunity, whilst making them firmly believe that the experience – to be played out again and again – is empowering.

Steadily falling happiness and life satisfaction, sky rocketing mental illness & despair.

Explosion of fatherless children, and the myriad social harms that go along with it.

As usual – when something is done under the banner of ‘progressivism’, the reality is the complete opposite.

Great going.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Jam
Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

The main achievement of the xth-wave feminism is criminalising people and securing billions of subventions solely based on the mantras of a doctrine, made-up statistics and trauma porn sold by self-proclaimed victims who now live off abolitionism.
As the so-called Nordic Model ages, its failure becomes ever more visible.
In Sweden, its home country, 24 years of Nordic Model have NOT decreased demand and/or trafficking. Nor has it changed mentality: as time goes by, ever more clients are younger than the model.
Its only tangible effects are a decrease in street prostitution -the visible form of prostitution-, which is partly due to the internet, and a large number of abolitionists having subsidised desk jobs, being paid for articles and speeches,… In France for example, abolitionist lobbies ask for € 242 million per year. That is excluding all costs for police officers, judges and prison wards who have to do the dirty work. Abolitionism is an industry; the Nordic Model, a business model.
Abolitionism violates the sex workers’ human rights, it deteriorates their health and increases violence towards them -abolitionism is a form of gender-based violence.
In June, Belgium decriminalised sex work. South Africa, despite strong activity from the international abolitionist lobby, is about to decriminalise sex work.
Amnesty International, the World Health Organisation, the United Nations, Human Rights Watch, Doctors of the World (except for its Spanish subsidiary, which receives € 8 million per year from the abolitionist government),… recommend decriminalising sex work.
Hence why the French sex workers went to the European Court of Human Rights. November 2021, the Court accepted their case. This is also why the Canadian sex workers went to court. Finally, sex workers are giving carceral feminists a taste of their own medicine.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nordic Model Revealed
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

*Abolitionism violates prostitutes’ human rights, it deteriorates their health and increases violence towards them -abolitionism is a form of gender-based violence.
In June, Belgium decriminalised prostitution. South Africa, despite strong activity from the international abolitionist lobby, is about to decriminalise prostitution.
Amnesty International, the World Health Organisation, the United Nations, Human Rights Watch, Doctors of the World (except for its Spanish subsidiary, which receives € 8 million per year from the abolitionist government),… recommend decriminalising prostitution.
Hence why the French prostitutes went to the European Court of Human Rights. November 2021, the Court accepted their case. This is also why the Canadian prostitutes went to court. Finally, prostitutes are giving carceral feminists a taste of their own medicine.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

*Abolitionism violates prostitutes’ human rights, it deteriorates their health and increases violence towards them -abolitionism is a form of gender-based violence.
In June, Belgium decriminalised prostitution. South Africa, despite strong activity from the international abolitionist lobby, is about to decriminalise prostitution.
Amnesty International, the World Health Organisation, the United Nations, Human Rights Watch, Doctors of the World (except for its Spanish subsidiary, which receives € 8 million per year from the abolitionist government),… recommend decriminalising prostitution.
Hence why the French prostitutes went to the European Court of Human Rights. November 2021, the Court accepted their case. This is also why the Canadian prostitutes went to court. Finally, prostitutes are giving carceral feminists a taste of their own medicine.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

And it goes deeper than so called sex work. This idea that promiscuity is somehow “empowering” has wrecked the lives of untold millions of young women, especially in the Western world, who buy into it and find themselves alone with a handful of children living in a mobile home – and often watching their own young daughters start down the same disastrous path. Note: Nothing I’ve said is intended to relieve men of their responsibility in helping create this catastrophe, both in demanding sex and then in abandoning the young women they’ve used.

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

Under the Nordic model, buying sex is criminalized and selling sex is legal.

To understand how ridiculous this system is, consider applying this same standard to drugs and gambling.

Buying drugs would be against the law but selling drugs would be legal.

Developing a gambling addiction and getting into debt would be against the law but promoting gambling and operating a betting shop would be legal.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Shaw
Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Correct. Why not apply the Nordic Model to all other activities in which there is human trafficking?
For example, agriculture: like prostitution, in agriculture there is trafficking and exploitation, including sexual exploitation.
Now, applying the Nordic Model to agriculture would turn into a criminal:
– anyone who sells or lends the farmer a spade;
– anyone who lends the farmer a plot of land;
– anyone who buys the farmer’s fruits and vegetables.
And if an abolitionist side-argues that one cannot compare prostitution with agriculture because the first is not a necessity whereas the latter is, well: people can grow their own fruits and vegetables instead of buying them. People have been doing that for centuries.
The same can be applied to construction, domestic services,…

Last edited 1 year ago by Nordic Model Revealed
mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago

Noticeable that in countries where sex work is legal or tolerated but nominally illegal but no enforcement there does seem to be less harm inc rapes and STDs and also less stigma. Most of these countries are in central and south America, plus Spain, Caribbean and parts of sub Saharan Africa. So they still have quite strong family, community and church systems, and seem to have reached a compromise on the issue of sex work. Compare that with the mainly protestant nations who persecute the workers and punters but strangely seem to ignore the pimps. Highly atavistic, individualist cultures who love to shame other people as long as they are different: pot heads, sex workers, poor people, roma, albanians….rockers, mods, keggies, catholics, punks, skins, gingers, quakers, etc etc the list is as endless as the bourgeoisies’ spite.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  mike otter

Low-IQ comment. Do you seriously think pimps aren’t pursued or condemned?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  mike otter

*Noticeable that in countries where prostitution is legal or tolerated but nominally illegal but no enforcement there does seem to be less harm inc rapes and STDs and also less stigma. Most of these countries are in central and south America, plus Spain, Caribbean and parts of sub Saharan Africa. So they still have quite strong family, community and church systems, and seem to have reached a compromise on the issue of prostitution. Compare that with the mainly protestant nations who persecute the prostitutes and punters but strangely seem to ignore the pimps. Highly atavistic, individualist cultures who love to shame other people as long as they are different: pot heads, prostitutes, poor people, roma, albanians….rockers, mods, keggies, catholics, punks, skins, gingers, quakers, etc etc the list is as endless as the bourgeoisies’ spite.

Last edited 1 year ago by Richard Craven
Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  mike otter

Low-IQ comment. Do you seriously think pimps aren’t pursued or condemned?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  mike otter

*Noticeable that in countries where prostitution is legal or tolerated but nominally illegal but no enforcement there does seem to be less harm inc rapes and STDs and also less stigma. Most of these countries are in central and south America, plus Spain, Caribbean and parts of sub Saharan Africa. So they still have quite strong family, community and church systems, and seem to have reached a compromise on the issue of prostitution. Compare that with the mainly protestant nations who persecute the prostitutes and punters but strangely seem to ignore the pimps. Highly atavistic, individualist cultures who love to shame other people as long as they are different: pot heads, prostitutes, poor people, roma, albanians….rockers, mods, keggies, catholics, punks, skins, gingers, quakers, etc etc the list is as endless as the bourgeoisies’ spite.

Last edited 1 year ago by Richard Craven
Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

How much is the Nordic model for an hour?

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago

Noticeable that in countries where sex work is legal or tolerated but nominally illegal but no enforcement there does seem to be less harm inc rapes and STDs and also less stigma. Most of these countries are in central and south America, plus Spain, Caribbean and parts of sub Saharan Africa. So they still have quite strong family, community and church systems, and seem to have reached a compromise on the issue of sex work. Compare that with the mainly protestant nations who persecute the workers and punters but strangely seem to ignore the pimps. Highly atavistic, individualist cultures who love to shame other people as long as they are different: pot heads, sex workers, poor people, roma, albanians….rockers, mods, keggies, catholics, punks, skins, gingers, quakers, etc etc the list is as endless as the bourgeoisies’ spite.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

How much is the Nordic model for an hour?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

If you approach all 3 abuses/ addictions from the status of the victim it will be clear to you that protection of the victim would require the opposite in the case of your 2 examples. Focussing on The word “user” doesn’t do it..

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Your plausible response will resonate with many sympathetic readers but it’s based on a prevalent implicit bias.
Consider instead that women selling sex are empowered and the men who buy it are being exploited.
To draw a drugs parallel: sex workers are selling the drug and the men who buy are the drug users.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

*To draw a drugs parallel: prostitutes are selling the drug and the men who buy are the drug users.

Phil Rees
Phil Rees
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Which surely demonstrates by reductio ad aburdum that the ‘parallel’ is completely invalid!

Phil Rees
Phil Rees
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Which surely demonstrates by reductio ad aburdum that the ‘parallel’ is completely invalid!

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

*To draw a drugs parallel: prostitutes are selling the drug and the men who buy are the drug users.

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Your plausible response will resonate with many sympathetic readers but it’s based on a prevalent implicit bias.
Consider instead that women selling sex are empowered and the men who buy it are being exploited.
To draw a drugs parallel: sex workers are selling the drug and the men who buy are the drug users.

Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Correct. Why not apply the Nordic Model to all other activities in which there is human trafficking?
For example, agriculture: like prostitution, in agriculture there is trafficking and exploitation, including sexual exploitation.
Now, applying the Nordic Model to agriculture would turn into a criminal:
– anyone who sells or lends the farmer a spade;
– anyone who lends the farmer a plot of land;
– anyone who buys the farmer’s fruits and vegetables.
And if an abolitionist side-argues that one cannot compare prostitution with agriculture because the first is not a necessity whereas the latter is, well: people can grow their own fruits and vegetables instead of buying them. People have been doing that for centuries.
The same can be applied to construction, domestic services,…

Last edited 1 year ago by Nordic Model Revealed
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

If you approach all 3 abuses/ addictions from the status of the victim it will be clear to you that protection of the victim would require the opposite in the case of your 2 examples. Focussing on The word “user” doesn’t do it..

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

I believe the situation is more complex and that a one size fits all solution is therefore ill advised.
The example of a vulnerable 15 year old in the piece is hardly representative is it? Of course the perpetrators in that case should be severely punished: trafficker, pimp and punters all!
But surely if an adult female decides she wants to have consensual sex that’s her right? If she charges and the other is willing to pay, whose business is that but their own?
If there are appalling abuses, and I believe there are, then let those abuses be criminalised, each one, individually and appropriately. I would suggest flogging and castration as being appropriate by the way! And I’ll volunteer to carry out those punishments myself, for free in case anyone thinks I’m pro abuse. I’m the complete opposite.
Here is another situation which I see a lot. Very rich but old and ugly yacht owners attract young beautiful ladies on board who clearly are happy to oblige and perhaps receive jewellery as ‘gifts’ (as well as the ultra rich lifestyle) in return for sex. Is the yacht owner to be prosecuted? It seems only the ‘working class’ user in sordid circumstances is being considered here. As with all legal enforcement the rich will be exempt as usual.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

They’re not even women anymore. Just chest feeders. Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated? Still, at least upper middle class women managed to get massive pay rises and ridiculous amounts of maternity leave so happy days. Sod the girls of Rochdale and Rotherham.

Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

Abolitionism is junk science. In 2012, the Supreme Court of Canada already unmasked its ideologues (Farley, Raymond, …): “almost all the evidence that demand-side prohibitionists rely on to substantiate their sweeping claims about the nature of prostitution derive from politically motivated studies.”

Last edited 1 year ago by Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

The main achievement of the xth-wave feminism is criminalising people and securing billions of subventions solely based on the mantras of a doctrine, made-up statistics and trauma porn sold by self-proclaimed victims who now live off abolitionism.
As the so-called Nordic Model ages, its failure becomes ever more visible.
In Sweden, its home country, 24 years of Nordic Model have NOT decreased demand and/or trafficking. Nor has it changed mentality: as time goes by, ever more clients are younger than the model.
Its only tangible effects are a decrease in street prostitution -the visible form of prostitution-, which is partly due to the internet, and a large number of abolitionists having subsidised desk jobs, being paid for articles and speeches,… In France for example, abolitionist lobbies ask for € 242 million per year. That is excluding all costs for police officers, judges and prison wards who have to do the dirty work. Abolitionism is an industry; the Nordic Model, a business model.
Abolitionism violates the sex workers’ human rights, it deteriorates their health and increases violence towards them -abolitionism is a form of gender-based violence.
In June, Belgium decriminalised sex work. South Africa, despite strong activity from the international abolitionist lobby, is about to decriminalise sex work.
Amnesty International, the World Health Organisation, the United Nations, Human Rights Watch, Doctors of the World (except for its Spanish subsidiary, which receives € 8 million per year from the abolitionist government),… recommend decriminalising sex work.
Hence why the French sex workers went to the European Court of Human Rights. November 2021, the Court accepted their case. This is also why the Canadian sex workers went to court. Finally, sex workers are giving carceral feminists a taste of their own medicine.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nordic Model Revealed
Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

And it goes deeper than so called sex work. This idea that promiscuity is somehow “empowering” has wrecked the lives of untold millions of young women, especially in the Western world, who buy into it and find themselves alone with a handful of children living in a mobile home – and often watching their own young daughters start down the same disastrous path. Note: Nothing I’ve said is intended to relieve men of their responsibility in helping create this catastrophe, both in demanding sex and then in abandoning the young women they’ve used.

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

Under the Nordic model, buying sex is criminalized and selling sex is legal.

To understand how ridiculous this system is, consider applying this same standard to drugs and gambling.

Buying drugs would be against the law but selling drugs would be legal.

Developing a gambling addiction and getting into debt would be against the law but promoting gambling and operating a betting shop would be legal.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Shaw
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

I believe the situation is more complex and that a one size fits all solution is therefore ill advised.
The example of a vulnerable 15 year old in the piece is hardly representative is it? Of course the perpetrators in that case should be severely punished: trafficker, pimp and punters all!
But surely if an adult female decides she wants to have consensual sex that’s her right? If she charges and the other is willing to pay, whose business is that but their own?
If there are appalling abuses, and I believe there are, then let those abuses be criminalised, each one, individually and appropriately. I would suggest flogging and castration as being appropriate by the way! And I’ll volunteer to carry out those punishments myself, for free in case anyone thinks I’m pro abuse. I’m the complete opposite.
Here is another situation which I see a lot. Very rich but old and ugly yacht owners attract young beautiful ladies on board who clearly are happy to oblige and perhaps receive jewellery as ‘gifts’ (as well as the ultra rich lifestyle) in return for sex. Is the yacht owner to be prosecuted? It seems only the ‘working class’ user in sordid circumstances is being considered here. As with all legal enforcement the rich will be exempt as usual.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

They’re not even women anymore. Just chest feeders. Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated? Still, at least upper middle class women managed to get massive pay rises and ridiculous amounts of maternity leave so happy days. Sod the girls of Rochdale and Rotherham.

Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

Abolitionism is junk science. In 2012, the Supreme Court of Canada already unmasked its ideologues (Farley, Raymond, …): “almost all the evidence that demand-side prohibitionists rely on to substantiate their sweeping claims about the nature of prostitution derive from politically motivated studies.”

Last edited 1 year ago by Nordic Model Revealed
Jim Jam
Jim Jam
1 year ago

The key acheivements of third and forthwave feminism:

Allowing women, en masse, to be used for sex and then discarded at the first opportunity, whilst making them firmly believe that the experience – to be played out again and again – is empowering.

Steadily falling happiness and life satisfaction, sky rocketing mental illness & despair.

Explosion of fatherless children, and the myriad social harms that go along with it.

As usual – when something is done under the banner of ‘progressivism’, the reality is the complete opposite.

Great going.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Jam
Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

As always, the left is inconsistent.
Rape – including date rape – is really, really serious. Always believe the victim. Protect her from intrusive questioning. More prosecutions! More convictions!
Sex work is real work. Don’t stigmatise us! It’s our choice to pursue a trade in which rape is an occupational hazard. What are you – some kind of moralist?

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

This is a very strange article. Firstly, there must be an acknowledgement that the left are the undisputed masters of language manipulation. To call prostitution ‘sex work’ is no different from mass racial and sexual discrimination being called ‘equity.’ Secondly, women are not being ‘forced’ into prostitution by poverty (perhaps at the lower end of the scale where other factors are involved such as substance abuse). By and large most prostitution in the UK is voluntary, motivated by greed/laziness, and advertised via the internet where sex is traded by both men and women, often for large sums of money.
Rather than criminalise this side of the market, we may wish to return to something a bit more radical… like… self-respect? Perhaps teaching young people that sex is transactional, that there is no God and therefore a life of comfort and pleasure is the ultimate goal… is not actually a good idea. How about teaching children that sex is a sacred union that ought to be closed off within marriage; that chastity is a virtue; that loveless sex is joyless and leads to nihilism; that selling your body, or a buying a receptacle for your pleasure is degrading to both parties, and… here’s a word you don’t hear very often…. ‘sinful!’
Christianity ought to be a bulwark against the sins of pornography, prostitution and sexual immorality in general. In its absence, we’ve been left with each man as King and final arbiter of his own moral universe. How’s that working out for everyone? I’m now off to hang billboard around my neck that say’s “Repent – for the Kingdom of God is nigh.” No doubt I’ll be laughed at…. by Nietzsche’s ‘last man.’

Fiona Hok
Fiona Hok
1 year ago

. “By and large most prostitution in the UK is voluntary, motivated by greed/laziness, and advertised via the internet where sex is traded by both men and women, often for large sums of money.” Your evidence for this sweeping statement?

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Fiona Hok

OnlyFans?

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Fiona Hok

Certainly. Visit Chaturbate, onlyfans, Adultwork to name a few and find tens of thousands of people in the UK selling their bodies either virtually, or in person, for sex…. and they all seem jolly well pleased about it too. The numbers involved dwarf the kind of women you might find ‘walking the streets.’ The kind of vulnerable women walking the streets are vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, but principally because they will be involved in substance abuse and are using prostitution as a means to fund it. The internet marketplace of sex is a different animal altogether. When a woman is offering sex for £500 per hour in a Mayfair flat, whilst insisting that her clients don’t turn up intoxicated, are clean and respectful and make use of the shower facilities on hand, it’s rather a stretch to think of such women as being.. ‘forced by poverty.’ I’m afraid this isn’t a niche market minority.. as a cursory use of the internet search option will reveal. We have an industrial scale sex industry that has exploded into being in this country, and no-one seems in the least bit bothered about stopping it… maybe because they’re using it!

Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
1 year ago

An internet search will not give you a proper random sample – these are a self selecting group of individuals.
This is statistics 101.
Your assertions regarding motivations for different types of prostitution and the numbers involved are pure speculation.

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago

They are not ‘pure speculation.’ If I search adultwork for prostitutes in Cambridge and get a 100 results… then walk the streets of Cambridge day and night and don’t find any then that rather suggests the market is on-line, and voluntary. The figures may not be accurate, but they are by no means speculative.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Do you seriously think there AREN’T many different types/reasons/motivations of prostitution available? ..that the picture painted in the article is representative of every case of prostitution? Surely you can’t be so naïve as that?

Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Of course there there are as many reasons to take up prosititution as there are prostitutes.
FC claims that there are a large number of prostitutes who indulge in this activity voluntarily with even maybe a majority in the UK falling into this category. FC uses a sampling methodology to illustrate this notion (comparing what can be found online versus a walk around Cambridge streets) that I think is flawed and proves nothing. For one thing, Cambridge is not a representative city for the UK + it has a large university.
From personal experience prosititution is an accepted mechanism nowadays for students to earn extra dosh (to make the rent, for a night out, for an overseas summer holiday). Another reason why Cambridge would be a biased sample.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago

Cambridge University is not large compared to other universities which take in unlimited numbers of undergraduates. Cambridge is a fixed number of undergrads.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago

Cambridge University is not large compared to other universities which take in unlimited numbers of undergraduates. Cambridge is a fixed number of undergrads.

Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Of course there there are as many reasons to take up prosititution as there are prostitutes.
FC claims that there are a large number of prostitutes who indulge in this activity voluntarily with even maybe a majority in the UK falling into this category. FC uses a sampling methodology to illustrate this notion (comparing what can be found online versus a walk around Cambridge streets) that I think is flawed and proves nothing. For one thing, Cambridge is not a representative city for the UK + it has a large university.
From personal experience prosititution is an accepted mechanism nowadays for students to earn extra dosh (to make the rent, for a night out, for an overseas summer holiday). Another reason why Cambridge would be a biased sample.

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago

They are not ‘pure speculation.’ If I search adultwork for prostitutes in Cambridge and get a 100 results… then walk the streets of Cambridge day and night and don’t find any then that rather suggests the market is on-line, and voluntary. The figures may not be accurate, but they are by no means speculative.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Do you seriously think there AREN’T many different types/reasons/motivations of prostitution available? ..that the picture painted in the article is representative of every case of prostitution? Surely you can’t be so naïve as that?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

..or maybe it’s doing far less harm than other commercial activities such as banksters, oil company gougers, supermarkets and other profiteers etc.?

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

I read, many years ago, that porn producers had no difficulty whatsoever recruiting female performers. Getting men to perform (with women) was much more difficult.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

It’d take a special kind of bloke to get wood in a room full of cameramen though. You’d need to be a sort of sociopath

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

It’d take a special kind of bloke to get wood in a room full of cameramen though. You’d need to be a sort of sociopath

Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
1 year ago

An internet search will not give you a proper random sample – these are a self selecting group of individuals.
This is statistics 101.
Your assertions regarding motivations for different types of prostitution and the numbers involved are pure speculation.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

..or maybe it’s doing far less harm than other commercial activities such as banksters, oil company gougers, supermarkets and other profiteers etc.?

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

I read, many years ago, that porn producers had no difficulty whatsoever recruiting female performers. Getting men to perform (with women) was much more difficult.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Fiona Hok

OnlyFans?

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Fiona Hok

Certainly. Visit Chaturbate, onlyfans, Adultwork to name a few and find tens of thousands of people in the UK selling their bodies either virtually, or in person, for sex…. and they all seem jolly well pleased about it too. The numbers involved dwarf the kind of women you might find ‘walking the streets.’ The kind of vulnerable women walking the streets are vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, but principally because they will be involved in substance abuse and are using prostitution as a means to fund it. The internet marketplace of sex is a different animal altogether. When a woman is offering sex for £500 per hour in a Mayfair flat, whilst insisting that her clients don’t turn up intoxicated, are clean and respectful and make use of the shower facilities on hand, it’s rather a stretch to think of such women as being.. ‘forced by poverty.’ I’m afraid this isn’t a niche market minority.. as a cursory use of the internet search option will reveal. We have an industrial scale sex industry that has exploded into being in this country, and no-one seems in the least bit bothered about stopping it… maybe because they’re using it!

Seldom
Seldom
1 year ago

To be fair, I couldn’t care less what some Bronze Age sky daddy deems sinful. We come from a whole history of trying to enforce your religious views around sex and no, they didn’t work out well for women. In the here and now, people should have real choices and, unlike you, I don’t believe that prostitution is motivated by laziness. If it were a choice, then the MPs in question would surely be right about it being work like any other? Framing it as women’s lack of character is just another iteration of the “blame the victim” mentality your religious views have offered us throughout history (and that can still be seen in some less happy parts of the world, with stonings of “sinful” women and the like). TLDR: women subjected to prostitution are victims and using 6 thousand-year-old fairy tales to blame them for their own misfortune won’t do.

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Seldom

To be fair, I couldn’t care less what some Bronze Age sky daddy deems sinful. Ad hominem – irrelevant.
We come from a whole history of trying to enforce your religious views around sex and no, they didn’t work out well for women Women in Countries founded on Christianity are the freest, safest and best educated in the world
Framing it as women’s lack of character is just another iteration of the “blame the victim”  I speak of men AND women selling themselves, and buying sex. It IS a lack of character. Visit Adultwork.co.uk and see thousands of people merrily selling themselves from their own homes. No-one is forcing them.
I am a moral realist. I believe that objective moral values are grounded in the character of God… that all humans are divine image bearers.. that includes you. Yet we have untethered ourselves from this standard. The modern man has no objective standard for his moral compass; just the ‘feelz.’ We are now seeing the results of the desacrilization of man… a mass explosion of pornography, prostitution, abortion, assisted dying. You are simply a consumer and a unit of pleasure. I have no hope for any immediate improvement, and all I can do is ‘ride the tiger.’ Those of us who can see what’s coming down the road have no other choice.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

Belief in a God that doesn’t exist doesn’t make one a moral realist, but rather someone who tries to outsource morality to a human construct that simply has no basis in reality.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I recommend ‘Meta-ethics: an Introduction’ by Andrew Fisher. Give it careful study and you’ll see that belief in God does, in fact, make one a moral realist.

Will Cummings
Will Cummings
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Sure but how about belief in a God that might exist? See Pascal’s wager.

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I recommend ‘Meta-ethics: an Introduction’ by Andrew Fisher. Give it careful study and you’ll see that belief in God does, in fact, make one a moral realist.

Will Cummings
Will Cummings
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Sure but how about belief in a God that might exist? See Pascal’s wager.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

Belief in a God that doesn’t exist doesn’t make one a moral realist, but rather someone who tries to outsource morality to a human construct that simply has no basis in reality.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Seldom

The word ‘sin’ was actually an ancient archery term that meant ‘missing the mark’. Unfortunately, many people are happy to believe that the Old Testament was written by a group of grumpy old men keen to suppress all happiness and joy just because.
In fact, it’s a work that contains centuries of wisdom based on Judaic history and tradition. The ancient Jews discovered that in ‘missing the mark’ i.e. by deviating from wholesome living and reveling in sin, that they became soft and decadent thus leaving themselves exposed to attack by stronger and more ruthless enemies such as the Babylonians, and the Assyrians.
We find ourselves in a similar state today. With Man and his petty narcissisms replacing G*d as a cultural pillar, the more the vulnerable in our societies are left to the depredations of the cruel and capricious. Christianity, of course, was never perfect, but neither did it ever claim to be. In fact the main reason for its popularity was that no matter how imperfect we all are, we have it in us to live in divine grace and beauty. The avoidance of sin wasn’t about leading a moralistically unquestionable life (in fact the Bible warns against such puritanical thinking), but about avoiding degeneration and leading your best life. Granted, some of the concepts and stories may come across as anachronistic for today’s audiences, but given the fact that the ancestral and cultural remnants that composed most of the Bible are still around today – some thousands of years later, when the empires of their enemies have long crumbled to dust – must say something about the veracity of the Bible and the message it contains.

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Seldom

To be fair, I couldn’t care less what some Bronze Age sky daddy deems sinful. Ad hominem – irrelevant.
We come from a whole history of trying to enforce your religious views around sex and no, they didn’t work out well for women Women in Countries founded on Christianity are the freest, safest and best educated in the world
Framing it as women’s lack of character is just another iteration of the “blame the victim”  I speak of men AND women selling themselves, and buying sex. It IS a lack of character. Visit Adultwork.co.uk and see thousands of people merrily selling themselves from their own homes. No-one is forcing them.
I am a moral realist. I believe that objective moral values are grounded in the character of God… that all humans are divine image bearers.. that includes you. Yet we have untethered ourselves from this standard. The modern man has no objective standard for his moral compass; just the ‘feelz.’ We are now seeing the results of the desacrilization of man… a mass explosion of pornography, prostitution, abortion, assisted dying. You are simply a consumer and a unit of pleasure. I have no hope for any immediate improvement, and all I can do is ‘ride the tiger.’ Those of us who can see what’s coming down the road have no other choice.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Seldom

The word ‘sin’ was actually an ancient archery term that meant ‘missing the mark’. Unfortunately, many people are happy to believe that the Old Testament was written by a group of grumpy old men keen to suppress all happiness and joy just because.
In fact, it’s a work that contains centuries of wisdom based on Judaic history and tradition. The ancient Jews discovered that in ‘missing the mark’ i.e. by deviating from wholesome living and reveling in sin, that they became soft and decadent thus leaving themselves exposed to attack by stronger and more ruthless enemies such as the Babylonians, and the Assyrians.
We find ourselves in a similar state today. With Man and his petty narcissisms replacing G*d as a cultural pillar, the more the vulnerable in our societies are left to the depredations of the cruel and capricious. Christianity, of course, was never perfect, but neither did it ever claim to be. In fact the main reason for its popularity was that no matter how imperfect we all are, we have it in us to live in divine grace and beauty. The avoidance of sin wasn’t about leading a moralistically unquestionable life (in fact the Bible warns against such puritanical thinking), but about avoiding degeneration and leading your best life. Granted, some of the concepts and stories may come across as anachronistic for today’s audiences, but given the fact that the ancestral and cultural remnants that composed most of the Bible are still around today – some thousands of years later, when the empires of their enemies have long crumbled to dust – must say something about the veracity of the Bible and the message it contains.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Good for you: I admire your neck (in both senses of that phrase).. It is curious however is it not that Jesus befriended prostitutes and never supported their persecution: quite the opposite. It is also curious is it not that Jesus had very little to say on the subject of sex compared to His condemnation of hypocrisy, pedantry and zealotry? His focus seemed to be much more on getting in touch with your soul (and so God) with other issues very much secondary. I’m not being critical: it’s merely an observation..

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Jesus did indeed spend time with prostitutes, but only to turn them from their sin. In John 8:1-11 we read of the woman caught in adultery. In this case the Pharisees weren’t interested in the woman’s adultery, rather they were interested in trapping Jesus. Yet we see that even though Jesus saved the life of this woman, He also stated very clearly: “Go and sin no more.” He knows that the dead don’t repent and offers her the chance of a new life.. one that leaves sin behind. Jesus recognises and condemns sexual sin.
Moreover, in Matthew 19 Jesus defends the institution of Marriage as instituted in Genesis. We also see this in Matt 5:32. He clearly condemns ‘porneia’ which may be translated as ‘sexual immorality.’ Bear in mind Jesus is addressing 1st century Jews. Where do they get their sexual ethics from? How do they understand sexual immorality? They get their sexual ethics from the Holiness Code in Leviticus.
“’Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness” Lev 19:29 (there’s some lessons in there for us!!)
Taken together, we may say that the Christian approach to this issue is to call out the sin – being a prostitute and/or using a prostitute debases the sanctity of life and is to be condemned. Yet we must foster an environment that offers the sinner a road to redemption. Save them from those who would use them for their own ends (as Jesus would) then command them to sin no more! (as Jesus would.)

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago

I am no longer a Christian (raised as one) but as a religion it has a lot of sense, much grounded (as @Julian_Farrows observes above) in hard-learned lessons from lots of practical experience.
Of course, it’s not perfect – it’s a product of humans, who equally aren’t perfect.

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago

I am no longer a Christian (raised as one) but as a religion it has a lot of sense, much grounded (as @Julian_Farrows observes above) in hard-learned lessons from lots of practical experience.
Of course, it’s not perfect – it’s a product of humans, who equally aren’t perfect.

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Jesus did indeed spend time with prostitutes, but only to turn them from their sin. In John 8:1-11 we read of the woman caught in adultery. In this case the Pharisees weren’t interested in the woman’s adultery, rather they were interested in trapping Jesus. Yet we see that even though Jesus saved the life of this woman, He also stated very clearly: “Go and sin no more.” He knows that the dead don’t repent and offers her the chance of a new life.. one that leaves sin behind. Jesus recognises and condemns sexual sin.
Moreover, in Matthew 19 Jesus defends the institution of Marriage as instituted in Genesis. We also see this in Matt 5:32. He clearly condemns ‘porneia’ which may be translated as ‘sexual immorality.’ Bear in mind Jesus is addressing 1st century Jews. Where do they get their sexual ethics from? How do they understand sexual immorality? They get their sexual ethics from the Holiness Code in Leviticus.
“’Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness” Lev 19:29 (there’s some lessons in there for us!!)
Taken together, we may say that the Christian approach to this issue is to call out the sin – being a prostitute and/or using a prostitute debases the sanctity of life and is to be condemned. Yet we must foster an environment that offers the sinner a road to redemption. Save them from those who would use them for their own ends (as Jesus would) then command them to sin no more! (as Jesus would.)

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

I 100% agree with you. Unfortunately, we live in a time and place where women enjoy unbridled freedom and privilege, yet still find room in their hearts to blame men whenever things don’t go their way. This situation puts me in mind of a passage from Milton’s Paradise Lost that describes our situation very aptly.
Eve after eating the forbidden fruit:
Being as I am, why didst not thou the Head
Command me absolutely not to go,
Going into such danger as thou saidst?
Too facil then thou didst not much gainsay,
Nay, didst permit, approve, and fair dismiss.
Hadst thou bin firm and fixt in thy dissent,
Neither had I transgress’d, nor thou with mee.

To whom then first incenst Adam repli’d,
Is this the Love, is this the recompence
Of mine to thee, ingrateful Eve, exprest
Immutable when thou wert lost, not I,
Who might have liv’d and joyd immortal bliss,
Yet willingly chose rather Death with thee:
And am I now upbraided, as the cause
Of thy transgressing? not enough severe,
It seems, in thy restraint: what could I more?
I warn’d thee, I admonish’d thee, foretold
The danger, and the lurking Enemie
That lay in wait; beyond this had bin force,
And force upon free Will hath here no place.

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

How many times does it need to be said that “teaching young people… that there is no God” does NOT mean that “a life of comfort and pleasure is the ultimate goal”.
We really do need to move beyond these tired platitudes. And again, quoting Nietzsche does NOT make an argument more valid!

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

True, but G. K. Chesterton would like to have a word with you:
“The modern world is not evil; in some ways the modern world is far too good. It is full of wild and wasted virtues. When a religious scheme is shattered (as Christianity was shattered at the Reformation), it is not merely the vices that are let loose. The vices are, indeed, let loose, and they wander and do damage. But the virtues are let loose also; and the virtues wander more wildly, and the virtues do more terrible damage. The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful.”
The best approximation of what Chesterton is trying to say here is that people do more harm in the name of virtue than they do when acting out on vice. Without a basic principle that we are all equal under God we lose sight of the fact that our opponents are human too. Almost every cultural revolution that sought to overthrow G*d has the blood of millions on its hands. Even here in the West we now have a corrupted media system that pits women against men, children against elders, queer against straight, black against white, in the hopes of inciting social change (one I fear that benefits only those who would like nothing more than to rule over us). Without the social resilience and cohesion of Christianity we become more susceptible to ideologies that turn our virtues against us, much like how concepts such as compassion and kindness have become weaponized to generate sympathy and tolerance for unwholesome lifestyles.

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Most pithily put as ‘The road to hell is paved with good intentions’. Were I Tsar, I would order that tattooed on everyone’s forehead (in reverse, so it could be read in the mirror).

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

If the road to Hell was in Britain it would be paved with potholes, speed cameras and endless unfinished ” roadworks”, full of people driving at 29 mph, leaving 4 car length ” coronaphobe” spaces between each other…

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

If the road to Hell was in Britain it would be paved with potholes, speed cameras and endless unfinished ” roadworks”, full of people driving at 29 mph, leaving 4 car length ” coronaphobe” spaces between each other…

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

The Reformation would never have happened had it not been for the corruption and malpractive of the Catholic Church.

Fabio Paolo Barbieri
Fabio Paolo Barbieri
1 year ago

An ancient, false, platitudinous formula was exactly what this debate needed. Do you have any more ancient, false, platitudinous formulae?

Fabio Paolo Barbieri
Fabio Paolo Barbieri
1 year ago

An ancient, false, platitudinous formula was exactly what this debate needed. Do you have any more ancient, false, platitudinous formulae?

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Most pithily put as ‘The road to hell is paved with good intentions’. Were I Tsar, I would order that tattooed on everyone’s forehead (in reverse, so it could be read in the mirror).

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

The Reformation would never have happened had it not been for the corruption and malpractive of the Catholic Church.

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Teaching them that there is no God means that a life of comfort and pleasure is the ONLY possible point to existence, if indeed having a ‘point’ even makes sense without God, which it doesn’t. Another of atheisms grand illusions.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

True, but G. K. Chesterton would like to have a word with you:
“The modern world is not evil; in some ways the modern world is far too good. It is full of wild and wasted virtues. When a religious scheme is shattered (as Christianity was shattered at the Reformation), it is not merely the vices that are let loose. The vices are, indeed, let loose, and they wander and do damage. But the virtues are let loose also; and the virtues wander more wildly, and the virtues do more terrible damage. The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful.”
The best approximation of what Chesterton is trying to say here is that people do more harm in the name of virtue than they do when acting out on vice. Without a basic principle that we are all equal under God we lose sight of the fact that our opponents are human too. Almost every cultural revolution that sought to overthrow G*d has the blood of millions on its hands. Even here in the West we now have a corrupted media system that pits women against men, children against elders, queer against straight, black against white, in the hopes of inciting social change (one I fear that benefits only those who would like nothing more than to rule over us). Without the social resilience and cohesion of Christianity we become more susceptible to ideologies that turn our virtues against us, much like how concepts such as compassion and kindness have become weaponized to generate sympathy and tolerance for unwholesome lifestyles.

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Teaching them that there is no God means that a life of comfort and pleasure is the ONLY possible point to existence, if indeed having a ‘point’ even makes sense without God, which it doesn’t. Another of atheisms grand illusions.

Fiona Hok
Fiona Hok
1 year ago

. “By and large most prostitution in the UK is voluntary, motivated by greed/laziness, and advertised via the internet where sex is traded by both men and women, often for large sums of money.” Your evidence for this sweeping statement?

Seldom
Seldom
1 year ago

To be fair, I couldn’t care less what some Bronze Age sky daddy deems sinful. We come from a whole history of trying to enforce your religious views around sex and no, they didn’t work out well for women. In the here and now, people should have real choices and, unlike you, I don’t believe that prostitution is motivated by laziness. If it were a choice, then the MPs in question would surely be right about it being work like any other? Framing it as women’s lack of character is just another iteration of the “blame the victim” mentality your religious views have offered us throughout history (and that can still be seen in some less happy parts of the world, with stonings of “sinful” women and the like). TLDR: women subjected to prostitution are victims and using 6 thousand-year-old fairy tales to blame them for their own misfortune won’t do.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Good for you: I admire your neck (in both senses of that phrase).. It is curious however is it not that Jesus befriended prostitutes and never supported their persecution: quite the opposite. It is also curious is it not that Jesus had very little to say on the subject of sex compared to His condemnation of hypocrisy, pedantry and zealotry? His focus seemed to be much more on getting in touch with your soul (and so God) with other issues very much secondary. I’m not being critical: it’s merely an observation..

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

I 100% agree with you. Unfortunately, we live in a time and place where women enjoy unbridled freedom and privilege, yet still find room in their hearts to blame men whenever things don’t go their way. This situation puts me in mind of a passage from Milton’s Paradise Lost that describes our situation very aptly.
Eve after eating the forbidden fruit:
Being as I am, why didst not thou the Head
Command me absolutely not to go,
Going into such danger as thou saidst?
Too facil then thou didst not much gainsay,
Nay, didst permit, approve, and fair dismiss.
Hadst thou bin firm and fixt in thy dissent,
Neither had I transgress’d, nor thou with mee.

To whom then first incenst Adam repli’d,
Is this the Love, is this the recompence
Of mine to thee, ingrateful Eve, exprest
Immutable when thou wert lost, not I,
Who might have liv’d and joyd immortal bliss,
Yet willingly chose rather Death with thee:
And am I now upbraided, as the cause
Of thy transgressing? not enough severe,
It seems, in thy restraint: what could I more?
I warn’d thee, I admonish’d thee, foretold
The danger, and the lurking Enemie
That lay in wait; beyond this had bin force,
And force upon free Will hath here no place.

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

How many times does it need to be said that “teaching young people… that there is no God” does NOT mean that “a life of comfort and pleasure is the ultimate goal”.
We really do need to move beyond these tired platitudes. And again, quoting Nietzsche does NOT make an argument more valid!

Alison Tyler
Alison Tyler
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

Yes. Always some kind of moralist, attempting to respect and support others, living being a difficult, risky business we each need all the help we can offer.

Fletcher Christian
Fletcher Christian
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

This is a very strange article. Firstly, there must be an acknowledgement that the left are the undisputed masters of language manipulation. To call prostitution ‘sex work’ is no different from mass racial and sexual discrimination being called ‘equity.’ Secondly, women are not being ‘forced’ into prostitution by poverty (perhaps at the lower end of the scale where other factors are involved such as substance abuse). By and large most prostitution in the UK is voluntary, motivated by greed/laziness, and advertised via the internet where sex is traded by both men and women, often for large sums of money.
Rather than criminalise this side of the market, we may wish to return to something a bit more radical… like… self-respect? Perhaps teaching young people that sex is transactional, that there is no God and therefore a life of comfort and pleasure is the ultimate goal… is not actually a good idea. How about teaching children that sex is a sacred union that ought to be closed off within marriage; that chastity is a virtue; that loveless sex is joyless and leads to nihilism; that selling your body, or a buying a receptacle for your pleasure is degrading to both parties, and… here’s a word you don’t hear very often…. ‘sinful!’
Christianity ought to be a bulwark against the sins of pornography, prostitution and sexual immorality in general. In its absence, we’ve been left with each man as King and final arbiter of his own moral universe. How’s that working out for everyone? I’m now off to hang billboard around my neck that say’s “Repent – for the Kingdom of God is nigh.” No doubt I’ll be laughed at…. by Nietzsche’s ‘last man.’

Alison Tyler
Alison Tyler
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

Yes. Always some kind of moralist, attempting to respect and support others, living being a difficult, risky business we each need all the help we can offer.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

As always, the left is inconsistent.
Rape – including date rape – is really, really serious. Always believe the victim. Protect her from intrusive questioning. More prosecutions! More convictions!
Sex work is real work. Don’t stigmatise us! It’s our choice to pursue a trade in which rape is an occupational hazard. What are you – some kind of moralist?

Marshall Ballantine-Jones
Marshall Ballantine-Jones
1 year ago

Excellently said! Any activity that involves the systemic abuse of another person should be criminalised. Have these progressive politicians ever consulted with ‘sex-workers’?

Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago

“Any activity that involves the systemic abuse of another person”
And is prostitution such an activity? I.e. every single woman or man who does prostitution is systematically abused by another person? Does any objective evidence show this or is it just another mantra?
All over the world, sex workers themselves reject the “solution” Bindel and her peer abolitionists are imposing, i.e. the Nordic Model. Both in Canada and France, both abolitionist countries, sex workers have filed a court case against the model. For France, and Europe, it is the European Court of Human Rights which will decide.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nordic Model Revealed
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

The question is who is abusing whom in this context.
No one suggests drug users are abusing drug dealer and through their instable demand for narcotics are forcing dealers to engage in criminal activity.
Also
“We know how loudly men will speak up for their own interests; so shouldn’t women” 
In my lifetime men have bee virtually silent while women have been conspicuously loud and vociferous

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago

Yes, prostitution involves the systemic abuse of another person. Demanding “objective evidence” of the obvious is like demanding “objective evidence” that jumping off a cliff is a bad idea. Glad I could help.

Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Did you help? Repeating a mantra which ignores reality and comparing a means to make a living to suicide isn’t really helpful, is it?

Last edited 1 year ago by Nordic Model Revealed
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Idiotic comparison!

Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Did you help? Repeating a mantra which ignores reality and comparing a means to make a living to suicide isn’t really helpful, is it?

Last edited 1 year ago by Nordic Model Revealed
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Idiotic comparison!

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

*All over the world, prostitutes themselves reject the “solution” Bindel and her peer abolitionists are imposing, i.e. the Nordic Model. Both in Canada and France, both abolitionist countries, prostitutes have filed a court case against the model. For France, and Europe, it is the European Court of Human Rights which will decide.

Last edited 1 year ago by Richard Craven
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

The question is who is abusing whom in this context.
No one suggests drug users are abusing drug dealer and through their instable demand for narcotics are forcing dealers to engage in criminal activity.
Also
“We know how loudly men will speak up for their own interests; so shouldn’t women” 
In my lifetime men have bee virtually silent while women have been conspicuously loud and vociferous

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago

Yes, prostitution involves the systemic abuse of another person. Demanding “objective evidence” of the obvious is like demanding “objective evidence” that jumping off a cliff is a bad idea. Glad I could help.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

*All over the world, prostitutes themselves reject the “solution” Bindel and her peer abolitionists are imposing, i.e. the Nordic Model. Both in Canada and France, both abolitionist countries, prostitutes have filed a court case against the model. For France, and Europe, it is the European Court of Human Rights which will decide.

Last edited 1 year ago by Richard Craven
Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago

They consult very frequently, sometimes using your tax money to pay the consultation.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

It would have been useful if the author had herself consulted with several sexworkers and not just focussed on one appalling case of clear abuse of a 15 year old. There must be several reasons why women engage in the activity..
I feel sure different women would have different preferences based on different experiences.
It seems inappropriate to apply a single solution to what is clearly a multifaceted issue: and that unintended consequences will harm many people who are doing what they want to do harming no one in the process. That would be unfortunate.

Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Abolitionists like to sell trauma porn.

Jane Garland
Jane Garland
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

“Over the course of two years, Bindel conducted 250 interviews in almost 40 countries, cities and states, traveling around Europe, Asia, North America, Australia, New Zealand, and East and South Africa. Visiting legal brothels all around the world, Bindel got to know pimps, pornographers, survivors of the sex trade, and the women being sold by men classed as ‘business entrepreneurs’. Whilst meeting feminist abolitionists, pro-prostitution campaigners, police and government officials, and the men who drive the demand, Bindel uncovered the lies, mythology and criminal activity that shroud this global trade, and suggests here a way forward for the women seeking to abolish the oldest oppression. Informed by the lived human experience of those interviewed, this book will be of great interest to feminists, students, criminal justice advocates, criminologists and human rights activists.”
“The Pimping of Prostitution: Abolishing the Sex Work Myth”
https://www.thejuliebindel.com/books

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Garland

250 interviews in 40 countries is hardly in depth research. How many in which country? And what is the breakup of interviews with all those different players?

Last edited 1 year ago by Brett H
Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

When Melissa Farley, the ideologue of abolitionism, wrote “Prostitution in nine countries”, she selected 54 women in a rehab clinic in Hannover. These (ex) drug addicts were to represent the prostitution scene of a country, Germany, which had legalised prostitution.

Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

When Melissa Farley, the ideologue of abolitionism, wrote “Prostitution in nine countries”, she selected 54 women in a rehab clinic in Hannover. These (ex) drug addicts were to represent the prostitution scene of a country, Germany, which had legalised prostitution.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Garland

250 interviews in 40 countries is hardly in depth research. How many in which country? And what is the breakup of interviews with all those different players?

Last edited 1 year ago by Brett H
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

*It would have been useful if the author had herself consulted with several prostitutes and not just focussed on one appalling case of clear abuse of a 15 year old. There must be several reasons why women engage in prostitution..I feel sure different women would have different preferences based on different experiences.It seems inappropriate to apply a single solution to what is clearly a multifaceted issue: and that unintended consequences will harm many people who are doing what they want to do harming no one in the process. That would be unfortunate.

Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Abolitionists like to sell trauma porn.

Jane Garland
Jane Garland
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

“Over the course of two years, Bindel conducted 250 interviews in almost 40 countries, cities and states, traveling around Europe, Asia, North America, Australia, New Zealand, and East and South Africa. Visiting legal brothels all around the world, Bindel got to know pimps, pornographers, survivors of the sex trade, and the women being sold by men classed as ‘business entrepreneurs’. Whilst meeting feminist abolitionists, pro-prostitution campaigners, police and government officials, and the men who drive the demand, Bindel uncovered the lies, mythology and criminal activity that shroud this global trade, and suggests here a way forward for the women seeking to abolish the oldest oppression. Informed by the lived human experience of those interviewed, this book will be of great interest to feminists, students, criminal justice advocates, criminologists and human rights activists.”
“The Pimping of Prostitution: Abolishing the Sex Work Myth”
https://www.thejuliebindel.com/books

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

*It would have been useful if the author had herself consulted with several prostitutes and not just focussed on one appalling case of clear abuse of a 15 year old. There must be several reasons why women engage in prostitution..I feel sure different women would have different preferences based on different experiences.It seems inappropriate to apply a single solution to what is clearly a multifaceted issue: and that unintended consequences will harm many people who are doing what they want to do harming no one in the process. That would be unfortunate.

Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago

Have they interviewed Amazon warehous employees or delivery drivers. Let’s look for abuse of humans !

Nordic Model Revealed
Nordic Model Revealed
1 year ago

“Any activity that involves the systemic abuse of another person”
And is prostitution such an activity? I.e. every single woman or man who does prostitution is systematically abused by another person? Does any objective evidence show this or is it just another mantra?
All over the world, sex workers themselves reject the “solution” Bindel and her peer abolitionists are imposing, i.e. the Nordic Model. Both in Canada and France, both abolitionist countries, sex workers have filed a court case against the model. For France, and Europe, it is the European Court of Human Rights which will decide.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nordic Model Revealed
Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago

They consult very frequently, sometimes using your tax money to pay the consultation.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

It would have been useful if the author had herself consulted with several sexworkers and not just focussed on one appalling case of clear abuse of a 15 year old. There must be several reasons why women engage in the activity..
I feel sure different women would have different preferences based on different experiences.
It seems inappropriate to apply a single solution to what is clearly a multifaceted issue: and that unintended consequences will harm many people who are doing what they want to do harming no one in the process. That would be unfortunate.

Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago

Have they interviewed Amazon warehous employees or delivery drivers. Let’s look for abuse of humans !

Marshall Ballantine-Jones
Marshall Ballantine-Jones
1 year ago

Excellently said! Any activity that involves the systemic abuse of another person should be criminalised. Have these progressive politicians ever consulted with ‘sex-workers’?

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

Maybe a beginning would be to increase the age for those engaging in prostitution. Then those approaching or dealing with girls under that age face conviction. I know some will say that merely pushes it underground, but then at least the police have legitimate reasons for investigating and prosecuting. And it would certainly frighten off those who do pay for girls that age if they were faced with a prison sentence.

Will Cummings
Will Cummings
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Maybe set the minimum age limit at 85.

Will Cummings
Will Cummings
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Maybe set the minimum age limit at 85.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

Maybe a beginning would be to increase the age for those engaging in prostitution. Then those approaching or dealing with girls under that age face conviction. I know some will say that merely pushes it underground, but then at least the police have legitimate reasons for investigating and prosecuting. And it would certainly frighten off those who do pay for girls that age if they were faced with a prison sentence.

Andrew Blake
Andrew Blake
1 year ago

‘But in 2016, Lucas met with trans activist Paris Lees’. Here, surely, is the nub of the matter. Many trans extremists acknowledge seeing trans porn as their Damascene moment, and have therefore tried to normalise it, and to make prostitution an honourable profession. Women who buy into the transwomen are women ‘argument’ have to buy into this moral inversion, along with all the others.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Blake

Yes, strangely enough it seems to be normal everyday women who are leading the charge in bullying society to accept that men in dresses are actually real women. I don’t understand why they can’t stand up for themselves.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Because they can’t.
Feminism only got where it is now because feminism benefits elite men. Why do feminists think there are all these Women’s Studies departments, quangos and charities all pumping out feminist propaganda?
Feminism was great for the elite. Dilute the electorate, dilute union power, play women off against men, promote female materialism and harm avoidance because they promote Big Government.
Feminism means smaller families and more single people. Create industries that feed off loneliness and spite towards the opposite sex. More money for the elites.
Feminism doesn’t need women and never did. It was always about elite power.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Because they can’t.
Feminism only got where it is now because feminism benefits elite men. Why do feminists think there are all these Women’s Studies departments, quangos and charities all pumping out feminist propaganda?
Feminism was great for the elite. Dilute the electorate, dilute union power, play women off against men, promote female materialism and harm avoidance because they promote Big Government.
Feminism means smaller families and more single people. Create industries that feed off loneliness and spite towards the opposite sex. More money for the elites.
Feminism doesn’t need women and never did. It was always about elite power.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Blake

Yes, strangely enough it seems to be normal everyday women who are leading the charge in bullying society to accept that men in dresses are actually real women. I don’t understand why they can’t stand up for themselves.

Andrew Blake
Andrew Blake
1 year ago

‘But in 2016, Lucas met with trans activist Paris Lees’. Here, surely, is the nub of the matter. Many trans extremists acknowledge seeing trans porn as their Damascene moment, and have therefore tried to normalise it, and to make prostitution an honourable profession. Women who buy into the transwomen are women ‘argument’ have to buy into this moral inversion, along with all the others.

Jane Tomlinson
Jane Tomlinson
1 year ago

Loss of a guiding moral compass, or Christianity as we used to call it and an hysterical wall of hatred towards women, by men and women, and only paying lip service to those whose choices are in scarce supply. You can add all the other progressiveisms as well, but the loss of God matters, no matter how much we sneer, be assured that God matters.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jane Tomlinson
D Frost
D Frost
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Tomlinson

This should come as a surprise to no one. Leftists will support any cause that undermines the basic morality of Western Civilization— they will always claim to be advancing the interests of some allegedly disenfranchised identity group (e.g. women or “people of color”), but when the real interests of any group diverge from the main goal of undermining basic moral values, the group’s real interests will always take a distant second place— thus, women’s dignity, independence and value will cheerfully be sacrificed to promote the sex trade— simply because what is good for women is not— and never was— the left’s priority.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  D Frost

That is a downright lie. If it wasn’t for the trade union movement women (and most men!) would be slaves to the real villains in this world. Why do you suppose those villains now want to curtail the power of TUs? ..so that the rights of all but the chosen few (and their sickening lackeys) can be crushed as they were for 100s of years by the same evil gouging upper class!

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I am self-employed. If I go on strike I get no money. Trade unions are fighting to keep working practices in the 1970s.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I am self-employed. If I go on strike I get no money. Trade unions are fighting to keep working practices in the 1970s.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  D Frost

That is a downright lie. If it wasn’t for the trade union movement women (and most men!) would be slaves to the real villains in this world. Why do you suppose those villains now want to curtail the power of TUs? ..so that the rights of all but the chosen few (and their sickening lackeys) can be crushed as they were for 100s of years by the same evil gouging upper class!

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Tomlinson

Hysterical hatred of women by women and men also has played a role. Feminism is anti-Christian and anti-male. Read “It’s Good to Be a Man” by Michael Foster. To attack a civilisation, you attack the men.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago

Hatred of men*

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago

Hatred of men*

D Frost
D Frost
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Tomlinson

This should come as a surprise to no one. Leftists will support any cause that undermines the basic morality of Western Civilization— they will always claim to be advancing the interests of some allegedly disenfranchised identity group (e.g. women or “people of color”), but when the real interests of any group diverge from the main goal of undermining basic moral values, the group’s real interests will always take a distant second place— thus, women’s dignity, independence and value will cheerfully be sacrificed to promote the sex trade— simply because what is good for women is not— and never was— the left’s priority.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Tomlinson

Hysterical hatred of women by women and men also has played a role. Feminism is anti-Christian and anti-male. Read “It’s Good to Be a Man” by Michael Foster. To attack a civilisation, you attack the men.

Jane Tomlinson
Jane Tomlinson
1 year ago

Loss of a guiding moral compass, or Christianity as we used to call it and an hysterical wall of hatred towards women, by men and women, and only paying lip service to those whose choices are in scarce supply. You can add all the other progressiveisms as well, but the loss of God matters, no matter how much we sneer, be assured that God matters.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jane Tomlinson
William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago

Feminists claim feminism is the right for women to choose… except when feminists don’t agree with those choices.

Douglas McNeish
Douglas McNeish
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

By now a familiar contradiction in the land of feminist grievance: Women have agency when their actions bring success and fulfillment, but when their choices lead to failure and suffering, men must be to blame. So long as choosing the sex trade brings tax free lucrative income to women, it is empowering. But if it results at any point in emotional or physical trauma, then the path of grievance awaits, with feminists ready to to call out the trade as a harmful and degrading exploitation of women.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

You’ve got a point there!

Douglas McNeish
Douglas McNeish
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

By now a familiar contradiction in the land of feminist grievance: Women have agency when their actions bring success and fulfillment, but when their choices lead to failure and suffering, men must be to blame. So long as choosing the sex trade brings tax free lucrative income to women, it is empowering. But if it results at any point in emotional or physical trauma, then the path of grievance awaits, with feminists ready to to call out the trade as a harmful and degrading exploitation of women.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

You’ve got a point there!

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago

Feminists claim feminism is the right for women to choose… except when feminists don’t agree with those choices.

Tom Watson
Tom Watson
1 year ago

“The buying and selling of Albanian refugee children in Kent.”

I wasn’t aware that there was (or could be by definition) such a thing as an Albanian refugee?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Watson

The term is accurate: even in this case as it includes escape from ‘natural disasters’. If dire poverty isn’t a disaster I don’t know what is? It is also ‘natural’ as it occurs naturally when social order breaks down. You may be confusing the word ‘disaster’ with ‘cataclysm’. Of course there is room for narrower interpretations to suit xenophobia..

Tom Watson
Tom Watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Yes… You’ll be astonished to learn I think you’re wrong on the facts and insane in what you advocate, as you no doubt think I am in turn. Gave you an upvote for taking the time to answer though.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Funny how they buy international flights to Belgium and seek to pass through France to get here. Belgium and France must be impoverished, too.

Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago