Blaise Pascal is right to have jotted in one of his baroque notebooks that Jesus lived âin such obscurity⊠that historians writing of important matters of state hardly noticed himâ. And Erich Auerbach is right to have stressed in a book he wrote in Istanbul, exiled from Hitlerâs Reich, that Jesusâs death was âa provincial incidentâ. This is what makes it so remarkable that the life and death of an impoverished Galilean rabbi are described in a number of non-Christian texts from the first centuries of our era.
Jesusâs first non-Christian mention may be found in a Syrian philosopherâs letter, The Letter of Mara bar Sarapion, which was rediscovered in the 19th century but is vexingly hard to date. One eminent historian, Fergus Millar, concluded that this Letter was likely written as early as 73AD. This would make it roughly contemporary with the first gospels to be written.
Though Millarâs dating is contested, Maraâs Letter is certainly a pagan text of the first or second century AD. In it, both Socrates and Jesus are seen as belonging to an august history of philosopher-martyrs. Mara thinks that it is human error which led to their deaths, and to the devastation of the cities in which they died:
“What can we say, when wise men are forcibly dragged by the hands of tyrants, and their wisdom is taken captive by slander? ⊠For what benefit did the Athenians derive from the slaying of Socrates? They received the retribution for it in the form of famine … Or the Judaeans [from the slaying] of their wise king? From that very time their sovereignty was taken away …. [Yet] Socrates did not die, because of Plato ⊠nor did the wise king [die], because of the new laws that he gave.”
There is nothing necessarily untoward about Maraâs notion of divine nemesis. A Cynic philosopher, Dio of Prusa, similarly holds that Socratesâs death was the cause of the Atheniansâ later misfortunes. And a Judaean historian, Josephus (on whom more in a moment), reports that many Judaeans viewed Herod Antipasâs humiliating defeat in 36AD, by a Nabatean king, as divine retribution for his murder of John the Baptist. For a first or second-century philosopher such as Mara, âkilling the philosophersâ was a recurring drama which led to the godsâ destruction of Mediterranean cities. And for early Christians (and many Judaeans), âkilling the prophetsâ was a recurring drama which included John the Baptist and Jesus, and which brought down judgement on the cities of Galilee and Judaea.
We see that Maraâs Jesus has Syrian features by glancing at a second-century text by Lucian of Samosata. This dazzling Syrian satirist refers to âthe man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced new mysteries into the worldâ. Note that Jesusâs crime, here, is innovation. The gospels do not mention innovation as one of the crimes with which Jesus was charged, but Socrates was found guilty of introducing ânew divinitiesâ. Like Mara, then, Lucian seems to constellate the deaths of Socrates and Jesus. What is more, Lucian â like Mara â seems to see Jesus as a sort of lawgiver. As he writes about Syriaâs Christians:
Join the discussion
Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber
To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.
Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.
SubscribeIn the first chapter of the book of John, John the Baptist declares upon seeing Jesus the first time âBehold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the worldâ, alluding back to the Jewish sacrificial system of lambs and bulls. Then when speaking on the law of God in Matthew 5 Jesus declares âDo not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.â
If we see Christâs mission on earth as the salvation of all of Adamâs offspring, by obeying where Adam failed to, and dying the death that all our sins deserve, then fulfilling the law in our nature to attain heaven where the first Adam failed, then a lot of things make sense with his lack of interest in this worlds politics.
Even after his resurrection the disciples werenât waiting for the Holy Spirit to come to help them transform Jerusalem into an earthly utopia by partnering with or influencing the political rulers of their day.
Perhaps instead of being about politics, Jesus came to do just what he said he came to do. Perhaps the bible is actually true in verses like John 3:16 and 6:47 and when we rest our hope on him to save us from our sins and bring us into eternity, itâs all true!
Merry Christmas Unherd people! It’s all true!
Excellent Post!
…”back into eternity”? That makes sense: away from the madness of the (sinful) world into the timeless being of the soul. Enlightenment?
“Jesus declares âDo not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.â … Then would you agree that Jesus did not intend to create a new religion but to invite others to partake of his ? I consider the meaning of Jesus’s life as an invitation to the Gentile into Jacob’s tent.
It was perhaps the direct opposite: a invitation to devout, soulful Jews to leave the nasty, belligerent, corrupt and narrow-minded ‘tent’ to see the light of truth and find a more authentic way!
I don’t disagree with you, and consider it a reasonable wish that Christianity had remained part of Judaism, as it was during the first century or so. But given the hostility of the then Jewish establishment toward Jesus (and the politics of the Roman era), separation may have been inevitable.
It was perhaps the direct opposite: a invitation to devout, soulful Jews to leave the nasty, belligerent, corrupt and narrow-minded ‘tent’ to see the light of truth and find a more authentic way!
I don’t disagree with you, and consider it a reasonable wish that Christianity had remained part of Judaism, as it was during the first century or so. But given the hostility of the then Jewish establishment toward Jesus (and the politics of the Roman era), separation may have been inevitable.
…”If we see Christâs mission on earth as the salvation of all of Adamâs offspring, by obeying where Adam failed to, and dying the death that all our sins deserve, then fulfilling the law in our nature to attain heaven where the first Adam failed, then a lot of things make sense with his lack of interest in this worlds politics. ” … I hope you don’t mean that Jews must believe in the divinity of Christ to be “perfected”. Jews are in Covenant with God and always have been. And … the ideal of obedience is, after all, an ideal.
Is it not a great pity then that Israel is so disobedient to UN humanitarian resolultions and so neglectful of God’s command to love. If the US is the Great Satan then perhaps Zionists (though not all Jews by any means) have changed sides?
Oh dear oh dear. Firstly, Jews are not Christians, and secondly the Jews are under no religious or legal obligation to agree to ‘love’ their avowed enemies or to agree to the piecemeal or otherwise destruction of their state.
I wonder exactly why so many westerners are so terribly understanding of suicide bombers, mass murderers, indiscriminate rocket launchers, misogynists, homophobes (killing them, not saying nasty words!) etc etc while entirely lacking a scintilla of the same understanding for Jewish people, institutions and state. Or even the lesser sins of the cynical propagation of anti-Semitic propaganda by Arab governments (The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is alive and widespread in the Middle East) and the diversion of their population onto the Palestinian issue rather than provide good government for them.
And then there is the total ignorance (at the very best) or sinister double standards (tad more neutral) and outright anti Semitism (at worse) in the comparisons (or rather, not) between Israel and other states who commit massively greater violations of human rights without a peep out of anyone. A full scale Turkish military assault on the Kurds – yawn!
WOW….so now I don’t have to post, except this….you really said it all….what hypocrisy and double standards today…and blindness.and ignorance…I see that in the response of young women in keffiyah head scarves at Radio City….complete indifference to the suffering of raped and butchered women while screaming “Genocide Joe” and some hysterical white woman screaming “blood on your hands” dragged out of Radio City having paid her ticket to do this ….the ongoing war against the Kurds in Syria, in Iran…the occupation of Cyprus , of Tibet, the Uighurs , persecution of Christians ….the Rohynga….yes YAWN>
WOW….so now I don’t have to post, except this….you really said it all….what hypocrisy and double standards today…and blindness.and ignorance…I see that in the response of young women in keffiyah head scarves at Radio City….complete indifference to the suffering of raped and butchered women while screaming “Genocide Joe” and some hysterical white woman screaming “blood on your hands” dragged out of Radio City having paid her ticket to do this ….the ongoing war against the Kurds in Syria, in Iran…the occupation of Cyprus , of Tibet, the Uighurs , persecution of Christians ….the Rohynga….yes YAWN>
Oh dear oh dear. Firstly, Jews are not Christians, and secondly the Jews are under no religious or legal obligation to agree to ‘love’ their avowed enemies or to agree to the piecemeal or otherwise destruction of their state.
I wonder exactly why so many westerners are so terribly understanding of suicide bombers, mass murderers, indiscriminate rocket launchers, misogynists, homophobes (killing them, not saying nasty words!) etc etc while entirely lacking a scintilla of the same understanding for Jewish people, institutions and state. Or even the lesser sins of the cynical propagation of anti-Semitic propaganda by Arab governments (The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is alive and widespread in the Middle East) and the diversion of their population onto the Palestinian issue rather than provide good government for them.
And then there is the total ignorance (at the very best) or sinister double standards (tad more neutral) and outright anti Semitism (at worse) in the comparisons (or rather, not) between Israel and other states who commit massively greater violations of human rights without a peep out of anyone. A full scale Turkish military assault on the Kurds – yawn!
Is it not a great pity then that Israel is so disobedient to UN humanitarian resolultions and so neglectful of God’s command to love. If the US is the Great Satan then perhaps Zionists (though not all Jews by any means) have changed sides?
Excellent Post!
…”back into eternity”? That makes sense: away from the madness of the (sinful) world into the timeless being of the soul. Enlightenment?
“Jesus declares âDo not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.â … Then would you agree that Jesus did not intend to create a new religion but to invite others to partake of his ? I consider the meaning of Jesus’s life as an invitation to the Gentile into Jacob’s tent.
…”If we see Christâs mission on earth as the salvation of all of Adamâs offspring, by obeying where Adam failed to, and dying the death that all our sins deserve, then fulfilling the law in our nature to attain heaven where the first Adam failed, then a lot of things make sense with his lack of interest in this worlds politics. ” … I hope you don’t mean that Jews must believe in the divinity of Christ to be “perfected”. Jews are in Covenant with God and always have been. And … the ideal of obedience is, after all, an ideal.
In the first chapter of the book of John, John the Baptist declares upon seeing Jesus the first time âBehold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the worldâ, alluding back to the Jewish sacrificial system of lambs and bulls. Then when speaking on the law of God in Matthew 5 Jesus declares âDo not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.â
If we see Christâs mission on earth as the salvation of all of Adamâs offspring, by obeying where Adam failed to, and dying the death that all our sins deserve, then fulfilling the law in our nature to attain heaven where the first Adam failed, then a lot of things make sense with his lack of interest in this worlds politics.
Even after his resurrection the disciples werenât waiting for the Holy Spirit to come to help them transform Jerusalem into an earthly utopia by partnering with or influencing the political rulers of their day.
Perhaps instead of being about politics, Jesus came to do just what he said he came to do. Perhaps the bible is actually true in verses like John 3:16 and 6:47 and when we rest our hope on him to save us from our sins and bring us into eternity, itâs all true!
Merry Christmas Unherd people! It’s all true!
I have little doubt that a teacher named Jesus (Christ) lived and died on the cross. What I find perplexing is that it appears that none of these almost contemporary commentators make any reference to his surely most revolutionary contention – namely that those who follow his teachings could enjoy eternal life.
Many of the Christian teachings mirror those of the Stoics and other philosophers – but the offer of a means to conquer death seems something of a standout singularity for Christianity to me – and I find it curious these other ancient sources seemingly made no mention of it. It also leads me to wonder if it was a later elaboration of disciples of the new Christian religion. The views of other readers would be welcome.
It could, for instance, reflect the core Egyptian belief of eternal life, substituting recitation of the Book of the Dead for judgment by the saints at the gates of heaven in Christian belief. Egyptian culture was dominant in the eastern Mediterranean world, and was magnified by the power of the Ptolemies.
Or it could reflect the fact that someone, uniquely, did in fact, rise from the dead.
Or it could reflect the fact that someone, uniquely, did in fact, rise from the dead.
I had thought the Old Testament had different heavens, Saints could go there even if it was not the final destination of all, and that it may be Jesus was extending this to all who have faith, and that the concept was widely understood.
Your interpretation is something like mine. Rather than look too carefully at every little remark concerning his life, I prefer to view the meaning of his life as an invitation into Jacob’s tent. Jesus wasn’t, in my view, and in the view of many Jews, trying to set up a new religion. And it’s a pity that in trying so hard to distinguish Christianity from Judaism, the Christians miss out of much of the joy and beauty of Judaism. Trading Jewish law and the concept of redemption for salvation and a holy spirit isn’t the best bargain.
Your interpretation is something like mine. Rather than look too carefully at every little remark concerning his life, I prefer to view the meaning of his life as an invitation into Jacob’s tent. Jesus wasn’t, in my view, and in the view of many Jews, trying to set up a new religion. And it’s a pity that in trying so hard to distinguish Christianity from Judaism, the Christians miss out of much of the joy and beauty of Judaism. Trading Jewish law and the concept of redemption for salvation and a holy spirit isn’t the best bargain.
Since Jesus disappears from canonical texts between the ages of 12 and 30, some have theorized that for a time he went further East, where things like re-incarnation or the “non-binding death” of Nirvana were common beliefs. The Greeks had a notion of transmigration of souls and the underworld of Hades. Pre-Columbian peoples also had ideas of a Great Beyond of some kind, suggesting such beliefs are very ancient and general to humankind. So, while the specific notion of an eternal paradise may have been distinct, the very idea of an indefinite afterlife would not have been, at least to people who’d travelled or met travelers, or the rarer sort who were literate in the 1st Century CE. I would also welcome clarification or pushback.
Sounds plausible me.. the notion of eternal life (timeless life of the soul) seems to be hardwired into all of us.. even the atheists who can think of nothing to do with their lives except contemplate the nonexistence of God.
Sounds plausible me.. the notion of eternal life (timeless life of the soul) seems to be hardwired into all of us.. even the atheists who can think of nothing to do with their lives except contemplate the nonexistence of God.
A few points:
1. The Apostles had a notion that eternal life was for a few and so might have thought it N/A to the masses?
2. It is possible that belief in eternal life was ubiquitous anyway and so taken as read?
3. Jesus’s teachings on ‘eternal life’ were more complex than the notion of ‘afterlife’, ie that eternal life is available (via the very things referred to in the article) in the here and now as well as in the eternal. Indeed there is only one eternal (timeless) life and that is the life (being) of the soul. This may have eluded the scholars referred to.
Ah for me the stand out novelty of Jesus and this new religion was its treatment of non-believers – as people to be loved even as non-believers and people who would be saved for eternity by merely expressing their new belief and repenting their sins in a single statement. And thatâs why the establishment couldnât tolerate them.
But the words of Jesus himself call for a much deeper, active commitment than the disembodied theological claims of John, Paul, and “date I was saved” Fundamentalists would suggest. For instance: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven” and “these people honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me”.
Taking up the cross in the way Jesus advocated is not merely symbolic–and accomplished once and for all by a statement of faith/confession–nor necessarily a literal self-sacrifice, but living a life of profound compassion and unwavering service to others. Have I done this myself? Not even close, but that’s how I read and felt the message that Jesus himself delivered.
People who have been re-born in the Gospel sense are to be known not by their by their words, creeds, or even actions in and of themselves, but by their fruits.
But the words of Jesus himself call for a much deeper, active commitment than the disembodied theological claims of John, Paul, and “date I was saved” Fundamentalists would suggest. For instance: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven” and “these people honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me”.
Taking up the cross in the way Jesus advocated is not merely symbolic–and accomplished once and for all by a statement of faith/confession–nor necessarily a literal self-sacrifice, but living a life of profound compassion and unwavering service to others. Have I done this myself? Not even close, but that’s how I read and felt the message that Jesus himself delivered.
People who have been re-born in the Gospel sense are to be known not by their by their words, creeds, or even actions in and of themselves, but by their fruits.
When considering how the church or early followers of Jesus might have corrupted the original message and mission of Jesus, we should always take into account how much they staked (stook? :D) on their putative “elaborations”. It’s one thing to make miraculous claims for a new philosophy and then escape on a late train out of town; it’s quite another to face torture and death and still maintain those claims. They saw what they saw and heard what they heard, and were willing to die on that hill.
Invested?
Invested?
It could, for instance, reflect the core Egyptian belief of eternal life, substituting recitation of the Book of the Dead for judgment by the saints at the gates of heaven in Christian belief. Egyptian culture was dominant in the eastern Mediterranean world, and was magnified by the power of the Ptolemies.
I had thought the Old Testament had different heavens, Saints could go there even if it was not the final destination of all, and that it may be Jesus was extending this to all who have faith, and that the concept was widely understood.
Since Jesus disappears from canonical texts between the ages of 12 and 30, some have theorized that for a time he went further East, where things like re-incarnation or the “non-binding death” of Nirvana were common beliefs. The Greeks had a notion of transmigration of souls and the underworld of Hades. Pre-Columbian peoples also had ideas of a Great Beyond of some kind, suggesting such beliefs are very ancient and general to humankind. So, while the specific notion of an eternal paradise may have been distinct, the very idea of an indefinite afterlife would not have been, at least to people who’d travelled or met travelers, or the rarer sort who were literate in the 1st Century CE. I would also welcome clarification or pushback.
A few points:
1. The Apostles had a notion that eternal life was for a few and so might have thought it N/A to the masses?
2. It is possible that belief in eternal life was ubiquitous anyway and so taken as read?
3. Jesus’s teachings on ‘eternal life’ were more complex than the notion of ‘afterlife’, ie that eternal life is available (via the very things referred to in the article) in the here and now as well as in the eternal. Indeed there is only one eternal (timeless) life and that is the life (being) of the soul. This may have eluded the scholars referred to.
Ah for me the stand out novelty of Jesus and this new religion was its treatment of non-believers – as people to be loved even as non-believers and people who would be saved for eternity by merely expressing their new belief and repenting their sins in a single statement. And thatâs why the establishment couldnât tolerate them.
When considering how the church or early followers of Jesus might have corrupted the original message and mission of Jesus, we should always take into account how much they staked (stook? :D) on their putative “elaborations”. It’s one thing to make miraculous claims for a new philosophy and then escape on a late train out of town; it’s quite another to face torture and death and still maintain those claims. They saw what they saw and heard what they heard, and were willing to die on that hill.
I have little doubt that a teacher named Jesus (Christ) lived and died on the cross. What I find perplexing is that it appears that none of these almost contemporary commentators make any reference to his surely most revolutionary contention – namely that those who follow his teachings could enjoy eternal life.
Many of the Christian teachings mirror those of the Stoics and other philosophers – but the offer of a means to conquer death seems something of a standout singularity for Christianity to me – and I find it curious these other ancient sources seemingly made no mention of it. It also leads me to wonder if it was a later elaboration of disciples of the new Christian religion. The views of other readers would be welcome.
Jesus, a solid dude.
..never wrote a word, nor cut a record, nor appeared on TV but he’s got like 2bn followers!
He had a great impresario, Paul!
Every word of or about Jesus was rewritten many times. Perhaps more than one great impresario at work?
I’m not a fan.. Paul had his good points but sanitising the message to suit Rome including the denigration of women I don’t like.. I think Paul might have been a touch misogynistic as well as sycophantic.. but who am I to judge the great St Paul eh?
Every word of or about Jesus was rewritten many times. Perhaps more than one great impresario at work?
I’m not a fan.. Paul had his good points but sanitising the message to suit Rome including the denigration of women I don’t like.. I think Paul might have been a touch misogynistic as well as sycophantic.. but who am I to judge the great St Paul eh?
He had a great impresario, Paul!
..never wrote a word, nor cut a record, nor appeared on TV but he’s got like 2bn followers!
Jesus, a solid dude.
Itâs remarkable that intelligent historians decline to accept the New Testament documents as containing reliable eye-witness accounts of real historical events. The earliest date from around 50AD and I tâs likely that they were all circulating before the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. That means they were all around and being shared while tens of thousands of people could have rubbished them, had they been fictional or inaccurate. Perhaps some historians have an agenda.
Yes, Mark believed to be earliest I recollect reading. And Mark, Matthew derived from an earlier source often called the Q source believed based on eye witness accounts and handed down sayings. The Q source hugely debated by the real experts on the Historical Jesus as to how many of the statements in Mark & Matthew may be authentic.
Luke then written a little later, by someone (traditional deemed to be a scribe of Paul I think) and believed written in Rome as more sympathetic to Rome in some of the stories (like the soldier quenching Jesus’s thirst on the Cross). But with the sense the scribe must have had knowledge of the Q source too.
John being the enigma as v different in style. I’ve read believed to be closer to end of 1st century but some historians claiming it must be based on earlier different sources to Q.
It is fascinating. And the fact, whoever JC was, we still talk and debate what he stood for 2000yrs later arguably makes him one of the most remarkable figures of real history.
We agree! Do see my riposte to the accusation of modern bias. Revelations was written some 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus is a more remote divinity – as per Pauline Christology – and the Jews are very very bad.. ‘nothing to do with us Guv!’ plead the tiny bands of Christians dotted around the Empire but far from the wasteland of Judea where the early church was wiped out.
We agree! Do see my riposte to the accusation of modern bias. Revelations was written some 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus is a more remote divinity – as per Pauline Christology – and the Jews are very very bad.. ‘nothing to do with us Guv!’ plead the tiny bands of Christians dotted around the Empire but far from the wasteland of Judea where the early church was wiped out.
Remarkable, perhaps. The most crucial (I am aware of the root of this word and the double-meaning here) âreliable eye-witness accounts of real historical eventsâ are those of a literal resurrection. It either happened or it didnât. If it did, then it provides explanation as to why those witnesses at the time, as well as witnesses even up to the present day who say they have truly encountered Jesus, would reveal the encounter via transformed lives, in word and deed.
If the resurrection did not occur, every single word said or written about Jesus is a waste of breath and ink. Paul understood this completely, as seen in 1 Corinthians 15. But also note he fully accepts and preaches the idea that this proclamation and acceptance of the good news of the resurrection is grounded in faith or belief.
If an intelligent historian has no belief that a resurrection is even possible, then I suppose they canât be faulted for jumping through all manner of hoops to avoid, contradict, or explain away the eye-witness accounts. Of course there have been many intelligent people over the centuries who started out with unbelief, but then ultimately found it impossible to maintain that position onceâthey would say, in one way or anotherâthey heard Jesusâ voice.
My understanding of the Q source is most of the sayings Historians feel may be authentic relate to the things like the Sermon on the Mount, the Beautitudes and a number of the Parables.
Acts is believed to be earlier than Mark, and potentially has more in it from the actual Apostles. And of course Paul writes before any codification of the Gospels and knew most of the 12 before they fell out in the earliest schism.
I think you need to go and study some of the scholarship in this area. It’s often referred to as the Quest with different phases. Geza Vermes, Dominic Crossan, Meier etc. These aren’t theologians, they’re historians studying ancient texts and having a deep understanding of the languages JC and others used. So much can change in how things have been translated.
As i said, it is fascinating whether one is a believer or not. And of course regardless whoever he was, and whatever was fact or fiction, certainly had an impact.
My understanding of the Q source is most of the sayings Historians feel may be authentic relate to the things like the Sermon on the Mount, the Beautitudes and a number of the Parables.
Acts is believed to be earlier than Mark, and potentially has more in it from the actual Apostles. And of course Paul writes before any codification of the Gospels and knew most of the 12 before they fell out in the earliest schism.
I think you need to go and study some of the scholarship in this area. It’s often referred to as the Quest with different phases. Geza Vermes, Dominic Crossan, Meier etc. These aren’t theologians, they’re historians studying ancient texts and having a deep understanding of the languages JC and others used. So much can change in how things have been translated.
As i said, it is fascinating whether one is a believer or not. And of course regardless whoever he was, and whatever was fact or fiction, certainly had an impact.
Historians do have an agenda – the facts. So, mythology, having a powerful influence on human culture, is another important study. Historians may be interested in St Paul, Julius Caesar, Pontius Pilate but not King Arthur, Robin hood, William Tell, Socrates or Jesus Christ. In fact, if it could be proved that Jesus Christ never existed, it would not alter Christianity one iota … it’s a Faith.
Prove a negative?
Of all the people who never existed, some are more likely than others to have never existed.
Of all the people who never existed, some are more likely than others to have never existed.
Prove a negative?
You underestimate the value and indeed the power of the oral tradition.. the art of the story teller was revered and would have been quite accurate (a storyteller lacking accuracy had a short career!)..
I will say truth was more important than accuracy and so if accuracy tended to give a distorted message some variation was essential to the process. In short, accounts did not have to be written to be valid.
How do you know they werenât widely rubbished? But still believed by a core group whose message got out to the wider world, while the knowledgeable local criticisms didnât.
Few texts would have been widespread in a time without printing or media.
Yeah there was a pretty strong propaganda effort by the religion once it was organised, after the 2nd century, to stamp out or rubbish any texts that contradicted the texts that they had written themselves, as new interpretations of older texts, or that they had authorised.
Yeah there was a pretty strong propaganda effort by the religion once it was organised, after the 2nd century, to stamp out or rubbish any texts that contradicted the texts that they had written themselves, as new interpretations of older texts, or that they had authorised.
Yes, Mark believed to be earliest I recollect reading. And Mark, Matthew derived from an earlier source often called the Q source believed based on eye witness accounts and handed down sayings. The Q source hugely debated by the real experts on the Historical Jesus as to how many of the statements in Mark & Matthew may be authentic.
Luke then written a little later, by someone (traditional deemed to be a scribe of Paul I think) and believed written in Rome as more sympathetic to Rome in some of the stories (like the soldier quenching Jesus’s thirst on the Cross). But with the sense the scribe must have had knowledge of the Q source too.
John being the enigma as v different in style. I’ve read believed to be closer to end of 1st century but some historians claiming it must be based on earlier different sources to Q.
It is fascinating. And the fact, whoever JC was, we still talk and debate what he stood for 2000yrs later arguably makes him one of the most remarkable figures of real history.
Remarkable, perhaps. The most crucial (I am aware of the root of this word and the double-meaning here) âreliable eye-witness accounts of real historical eventsâ are those of a literal resurrection. It either happened or it didnât. If it did, then it provides explanation as to why those witnesses at the time, as well as witnesses even up to the present day who say they have truly encountered Jesus, would reveal the encounter via transformed lives, in word and deed.
If the resurrection did not occur, every single word said or written about Jesus is a waste of breath and ink. Paul understood this completely, as seen in 1 Corinthians 15. But also note he fully accepts and preaches the idea that this proclamation and acceptance of the good news of the resurrection is grounded in faith or belief.
If an intelligent historian has no belief that a resurrection is even possible, then I suppose they canât be faulted for jumping through all manner of hoops to avoid, contradict, or explain away the eye-witness accounts. Of course there have been many intelligent people over the centuries who started out with unbelief, but then ultimately found it impossible to maintain that position onceâthey would say, in one way or anotherâthey heard Jesusâ voice.
Historians do have an agenda – the facts. So, mythology, having a powerful influence on human culture, is another important study. Historians may be interested in St Paul, Julius Caesar, Pontius Pilate but not King Arthur, Robin hood, William Tell, Socrates or Jesus Christ. In fact, if it could be proved that Jesus Christ never existed, it would not alter Christianity one iota … it’s a Faith.
You underestimate the value and indeed the power of the oral tradition.. the art of the story teller was revered and would have been quite accurate (a storyteller lacking accuracy had a short career!)..
I will say truth was more important than accuracy and so if accuracy tended to give a distorted message some variation was essential to the process. In short, accounts did not have to be written to be valid.
How do you know they werenât widely rubbished? But still believed by a core group whose message got out to the wider world, while the knowledgeable local criticisms didnât.
Few texts would have been widespread in a time without printing or media.
Itâs remarkable that intelligent historians decline to accept the New Testament documents as containing reliable eye-witness accounts of real historical events. The earliest date from around 50AD and I tâs likely that they were all circulating before the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. That means they were all around and being shared while tens of thousands of people could have rubbished them, had they been fictional or inaccurate. Perhaps some historians have an agenda.
This article is intriguing, informative, and balanced in its tone. But I wish Mr. Dusenbury had ventured to make some fresh assertions of his own, beyond establishing that Jesus was beyond any reasonable doubt a real historical person who, given his obscure origins, had an outsized impact on the Ancient World from the outset.
Nevertheless, I intend to get and read his new book, where I expect to find some more venturesome claims.
Jesus was indeed a maverick itinerant rabbi with a remarkable message of love and charity toward the oppressed poor sick and meek. But lets remember too that it was almost the DUTY of every devout Jew to resist the Roman pagans who were violating God’s land. The Gallileans he lived among were notoriously hardcore rebels. And take a peek at the record: John The Baptist – political execution. Jesus – political execution. Brother James- executed in 62. James The Thunderer – executed in 40s. Peter – political execution in Rome. And so on…We follow the ‘Christianity’ adapted/invented by the genius Saul/ Paul who was a Roman citizen. Huge efforts were made by nervous early Christians to distance themselves from the rebellious Jews after the 66-70 War and destruction of Jerusalem. But I am pretty sure that the real Jesus amd his Nazarene cult would have shared his people’s aversion to the pagan defilement of Israel. The politics of resistance has just been scrubbed out.
[My comment was in error and I’ve removed it. Sorry Walter.]
I have read and reread the comment to which you refer, but cannot find anywhere in there a supplanting of modern day ideals on the historical Jesus.
I noted the same, only the messaging here is rather fluid, comments come and go…..
Comment erased. My mistake. I misread the second to last sentence to refer to present-day Israel. Very inattentive of me and I shouldn’t have posted, especially in the tone I used. Apologies to all.
I noted the same, only the messaging here is rather fluid, comments come and go…..
Comment erased. My mistake. I misread the second to last sentence to refer to present-day Israel. Very inattentive of me and I shouldn’t have posted, especially in the tone I used. Apologies to all.
Your comment confuses me. I am attempting to overturn the more ‘modern assumptions’ that have been encrusted onto to the life of Jesus within 3 decades of his sacrifice and to re-discover the historical rabbi. I have read all the New Testament thanks. What you can observe is how the vivid traces of the amazing human being who roamed in the company of rough earthy Galiean fishermen portrayed in the first and earliest accounts are – (over the period 70-90) supplanted by something different; the ‘Christology’ of the later writers. By Revelations we are with Christ, a divinity just as Saint Paul taught. But unlike the disciples, Saul never met the live Jesus. The Acts of the Apostles – so soft on the Romans – was written by someone committed to Paul’s astonishing theology in the dangerous afgermath of the Jewish rebellion which made all Jews enemies of the empire. The writer’s ‘Christianity’ is very unlikely to have been the same as that preached by Jesus. Political atitudes toward Rome is therefore the first thing to be excised from the theology of the new cult. I contend that one of the ancient’ beliefs Jesus and the Nazarenes would have experienced is hatred of the vile pagan invader of Eretz Israel, the squatter defiling the Temple. They were good Jews and hard Gallieans. But Jesus – unlike The Egyptian or Barabbas – had a far bigger mission. The Romans would unquestionably have seen him as one of hundreds of dangerous Jewish revolutionaries – just one with a bewildering agenda.
As noted above, I misread part of your comment, perhaps projecting the views of other commenters onto what you wrote too. I apologize.
I strongly agree that Paul was no Jesus and that the words and writings attributed to him have a doubtful and secondary message. His faith often seems intellectualized, programmatic yet abstract, though I’d cite the “if I have not charity” speech as one of the “keepers”.
With the likely exception of Mark, none of the Gospel authors met Jesus either. But at least their primary focus was on the life and teachings of Jesus–less so in John, whose focus is quite abstract and otherworldly–not the disembodied theological claims that are typical of Paul.
As noted above, I misread part of your comment, perhaps projecting the views of other commenters onto what you wrote too. I apologize.
I strongly agree that Paul was no Jesus and that the words and writings attributed to him have a doubtful and secondary message. His faith often seems intellectualized, programmatic yet abstract, though I’d cite the “if I have not charity” speech as one of the “keepers”.
With the likely exception of Mark, none of the Gospel authors met Jesus either. But at least their primary focus was on the life and teachings of Jesus–less so in John, whose focus is quite abstract and otherworldly–not the disembodied theological claims that are typical of Paul.
No problem. Its such an engaging topic.
Thanks. I very much agree.
Thanks. I very much agree.
I have read and reread the comment to which you refer, but cannot find anywhere in there a supplanting of modern day ideals on the historical Jesus.
Your comment confuses me. I am attempting to overturn the more ‘modern assumptions’ that have been encrusted onto to the life of Jesus within 3 decades of his sacrifice and to re-discover the historical rabbi. I have read all the New Testament thanks. What you can observe is how the vivid traces of the amazing human being who roamed in the company of rough earthy Galiean fishermen portrayed in the first and earliest accounts are – (over the period 70-90) supplanted by something different; the ‘Christology’ of the later writers. By Revelations we are with Christ, a divinity just as Saint Paul taught. But unlike the disciples, Saul never met the live Jesus. The Acts of the Apostles – so soft on the Romans – was written by someone committed to Paul’s astonishing theology in the dangerous afgermath of the Jewish rebellion which made all Jews enemies of the empire. The writer’s ‘Christianity’ is very unlikely to have been the same as that preached by Jesus. Political atitudes toward Rome is therefore the first thing to be excised from the theology of the new cult. I contend that one of the ancient’ beliefs Jesus and the Nazarenes would have experienced is hatred of the vile pagan invader of Eretz Israel, the squatter defiling the Temple. They were good Jews and hard Gallieans. But Jesus – unlike The Egyptian or Barabbas – had a far bigger mission. The Romans would unquestionably have seen him as one of hundreds of dangerous Jewish revolutionaries – just one with a bewildering agenda.
No problem. Its such an engaging topic.
All I know of Jesusâs politics were his words: âRender to Caesar the things that are CaesarâsâŠâ and âMy kingdom is not of this worldâ. The one apostle of his 12, who deeply misunderstood him and his non-political nature and mission, betrayed him.
To me it is sad and depressing, that on Christmas Eve, we get only an uninspiring article (and comments below) focusing on Christâs historical/political aspect and not on his inspirational âStoryâ, which started one of the Worldâs largest mystical/inspiring Religion, bringing immense joy and spiritual depth to humanity. Christâs Story also influenced the most beautiful art, poetry and above all music. You will learn more from the âChristmas Oratorioâ by Bach about the affect Christâs birth had on our souls, than a thousand words about historical sources and rationalisations of the source of Christianity.
I agree that the tone is not jolly or reverent, but it’s quite evenhanded, not backhanded or snide as Terry Eagleton’s article is in many places.
Peter Wehner has a testimonial message-of-faith article in the NYT. I found it to be gushing, but sincere.
Time for St. Matthew Passion or other inspirational music by Bach or Handel I think.
I agree that the tone is not jolly or reverent, but it’s quite evenhanded, not backhanded or snide as Terry Eagleton’s article is in many places.
Peter Wehner has a testimonial message-of-faith article in the NYT. I found it to be gushing, but sincere.
Time for St. Matthew Passion or other inspirational music by Bach or Handel I think.
I doubt that. Left in was Jesus’s total lack of interest in all things secular..
[My comment was in error and I’ve removed it. Sorry Walter.]
All I know of Jesusâs politics were his words: âRender to Caesar the things that are CaesarâsâŠâ and âMy kingdom is not of this worldâ. The one apostle of his 12, who deeply misunderstood him and his non-political nature and mission, betrayed him.
To me it is sad and depressing, that on Christmas Eve, we get only an uninspiring article (and comments below) focusing on Christâs historical/political aspect and not on his inspirational âStoryâ, which started one of the Worldâs largest mystical/inspiring Religion, bringing immense joy and spiritual depth to humanity. Christâs Story also influenced the most beautiful art, poetry and above all music. You will learn more from the âChristmas Oratorioâ by Bach about the affect Christâs birth had on our souls, than a thousand words about historical sources and rationalisations of the source of Christianity.
I doubt that. Left in was Jesus’s total lack of interest in all things secular..
Jesus was indeed a maverick itinerant rabbi with a remarkable message of love and charity toward the oppressed poor sick and meek. But lets remember too that it was almost the DUTY of every devout Jew to resist the Roman pagans who were violating God’s land. The Gallileans he lived among were notoriously hardcore rebels. And take a peek at the record: John The Baptist – political execution. Jesus – political execution. Brother James- executed in 62. James The Thunderer – executed in 40s. Peter – political execution in Rome. And so on…We follow the ‘Christianity’ adapted/invented by the genius Saul/ Paul who was a Roman citizen. Huge efforts were made by nervous early Christians to distance themselves from the rebellious Jews after the 66-70 War and destruction of Jerusalem. But I am pretty sure that the real Jesus amd his Nazarene cult would have shared his people’s aversion to the pagan defilement of Israel. The politics of resistance has just been scrubbed out.
This article is intriguing, informative, and balanced in its tone. But I wish Mr. Dusenbury had ventured to make some fresh assertions of his own, beyond establishing that Jesus was beyond any reasonable doubt a real historical person who, given his obscure origins, had an outsized impact on the Ancient World from the outset.
Nevertheless, I intend to get and read his new book, where I expect to find some more venturesome claims.
How nice to follow a discussion on Unherd that is eloquent and reasoned, rather than the usual hysterical, backslapping rants.
âhysterical, backslapping rantsâ, a rather fine description of your good self Ms Holland if I may say so!
Funny that. The minute I read John Hollan’s remarks I thought of yourself Charlie! And lo it came to pass, the very next piece of garbage I read was from you. How fitting.
Heâs always lurking, waiting, for that opportunity to display!
Heâs always lurking, waiting, for that opportunity to display!
Funny that. The minute I read John Hollan’s remarks I thought of yourself Charlie! And lo it came to pass, the very next piece of garbage I read was from you. How fitting.
Oh – what do you know of anything – go away!
(and Merry Christmas)
Well said. Not the sort of chap one would want to find fishing in the Slough Cut is he/she?
Happy Christmas!
Have you any conception of how hollow and empty you sound?
Well said. Not the sort of chap one would want to find fishing in the Slough Cut is he/she?
Happy Christmas!
Have you any conception of how hollow and empty you sound?
âhysterical, backslapping rantsâ, a rather fine description of your good self Ms Holland if I may say so!
Oh – what do you know of anything – go away!
(and Merry Christmas)
How nice to follow a discussion on Unherd that is eloquent and reasoned, rather than the usual hysterical, backslapping rants.
In matters like these I always mis-remember the words of Malcolm Muggeridge:
If Jesus has been a Jewish Nationalist then Christianity would have never got started.
(YouTube, Firing Line with William F Buckley:The Culture of the Left)
I have always seen the practical difference in Islam and Christianity as Islam is a book of rules and laws from the most mundane as brushing ones teeth, finance, clean and unclean, and Civil laws, laws governing everything religious And civil – Sharia Law. Where Christianity stayed with Divine law, and left civil law to earthly government, and also that it was a duty to be a good citizen under human governed law, that society may function.
”With the coin displayed in front of them, Jesus said, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” The Herodians and Pharisees, stating the obvious, said, “Caesar’s.” Then Jesus brought an end to their foolish tricks: “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s” ( Matthew 22:21, ESV )”
And asked about eating pork said it is not what goes into a mouth which defiles one, but what comes out of it. Separation of church and state, holy and mundane.
Perhaps if you confine your definition of Christianity to the New Testament. But of course the Hebrew portion of the scriptures which Christians acknowledge contains many such rules of cleanliness, standards of punishment (often death) etc., in addition to inspirational, philosophical, historical, and mythical writings across dozens of books.
Personally I regard the OT as the warming up act and of little value otherwise. Jesus summed it up when he said the Law of Moses applied to people too hard of heart to be worthy followers of his message.
The OT is for vengeful Zionists to justify land theft and apartheid. In many ways Jesus’s message in antithetical to OT brutality, savagery and wickedness of every kind. Hence the Zionist connection. Btw do not accuse me of antisemitism:
1. Jesus, my no.1 hero was Jewish.
2. Palestinians are semitic too.
Personally I regard the OT as the warming up act and of little value otherwise. Jesus summed it up when he said the Law of Moses applied to people too hard of heart to be worthy followers of his message.
The OT is for vengeful Zionists to justify land theft and apartheid. In many ways Jesus’s message in antithetical to OT brutality, savagery and wickedness of every kind. Hence the Zionist connection. Btw do not accuse me of antisemitism:
1. Jesus, my no.1 hero was Jewish.
2. Palestinians are semitic too.
Perhaps if you confine your definition of Christianity to the New Testament. But of course the Hebrew portion of the scriptures which Christians acknowledge contains many such rules of cleanliness, standards of punishment (often death) etc., in addition to inspirational, philosophical, historical, and mythical writings across dozens of books.
Quite. Barabbas made it into history only because of his timing.. there were many others apparently, all forgotten now so MM was right!
I have always seen the practical difference in Islam and Christianity as Islam is a book of rules and laws from the most mundane as brushing ones teeth, finance, clean and unclean, and Civil laws, laws governing everything religious And civil – Sharia Law. Where Christianity stayed with Divine law, and left civil law to earthly government, and also that it was a duty to be a good citizen under human governed law, that society may function.
”With the coin displayed in front of them, Jesus said, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” The Herodians and Pharisees, stating the obvious, said, “Caesar’s.” Then Jesus brought an end to their foolish tricks: “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s” ( Matthew 22:21, ESV )”
And asked about eating pork said it is not what goes into a mouth which defiles one, but what comes out of it. Separation of church and state, holy and mundane.
Quite. Barabbas made it into history only because of his timing.. there were many others apparently, all forgotten now so MM was right!
In matters like these I always mis-remember the words of Malcolm Muggeridge:
If Jesus has been a Jewish Nationalist then Christianity would have never got started.
(YouTube, Firing Line with William F Buckley:The Culture of the Left)
There are several things unclear about the life of Jesus from Nazareth.
In the Jewish tradition having a baby is a moment of great pride and joy. It is a joy for the mother and the father as well. Why then the father of the baby in this case is being excluded from his birth ?
Second question, in the Jewish tradition (and Jesus was a Jew) getting married (in many cases at the young age) is a very important precept, then having children which is a divine blessing. Well he does not marry and has no children. Very unusual and I would say unlikely.
With regard to your first point, wouldn’t you say that your wife being a virgin (supposedly) might have had something to do with it? Of course, that might just be made-up nonsense, but then Jesus wouldn’t be the “Son of God”, would he.
I’m pretty sure artificial insemination wasn’t readily available c. 4BC and even if some unworldly agent was responsible, why wasn’t the marriage consummated? And what’s more, how would anyone know, writing these stories decades later? Does anyone know what their grandparents got up to?
We’re meant to gasp in wonder at these ‘mysteries’, as an act of faith. Each to their own.
Credo quia absurdum.
I wonder what Pliny would say about that?
Elder or Younger?
Elder or Younger?
And yet, you question…
The points i raise are also questions, of course, not statements. I would maintain however, that people ‘believe’ due to an emotional need, not because of the absurdity of what they’re being asked to believe. It may well be the case that if a perfectly rational basis were available, there’d be no need for belief and therefore no disciples (in the broadest sense).
The problem with an emotional basis for belief is that people become emotional when others don’t believe, regarding it as an affront. We see this in Unherd comments almost every day.
My last point was: each to their own. Many ills in the world would not occur if believers were able to accept that.
Heavens, yes- only yesterday I was on the receiving end of screeds of insults and ranting from supposed ‘Christians’ on Unherd, simply for a couple of approving comments on an article questioning the likelihood of Bethlehem as the place of Jesus’ birth.
So much for Season of Goodwill to all men.
Heavens, yes- only yesterday I was on the receiving end of screeds of insults and ranting from supposed ‘Christians’ on Unherd, simply for a couple of approving comments on an article questioning the likelihood of Bethlehem as the place of Jesus’ birth.
So much for Season of Goodwill to all men.
I wonder what Pliny would say about that?
And yet, you question…
The points i raise are also questions, of course, not statements. I would maintain however, that people ‘believe’ due to an emotional need, not because of the absurdity of what they’re being asked to believe. It may well be the case that if a perfectly rational basis were available, there’d be no need for belief and therefore no disciples (in the broadest sense).
The problem with an emotional basis for belief is that people become emotional when others don’t believe, regarding it as an affront. We see this in Unherd comments almost every day.
My last point was: each to their own. Many ills in the world would not occur if believers were able to accept that.
The ‘virgin’ is a red herring anyway, the result of a mistranslation of Hebrew for ‘young woman’ into Greek ‘parthenos’. Believers latched on to it – QAnon 1st century style.
Calling BS, Nicholas.
First, your disbelief does not render Truth untrue.
Birth had to be of a virgin so the resulting child would not have a sin nature. The Seed implanted by the Holy Spirit accomplished this.
Therefore, Jesus the Man, who fulfilled His Fatherâs will to remain sinless (inherently and volitionally) was qualified to be a proxy representative of the first parents and all human descendants on the Cross.
âHad to be sinless to pass inspection and qualify as the final Lamb of God.
âHad to be sinless to become the Federal Head of humanity and to pay for the sins of all on the cross.
âHad to be sinless to defeat death and to have His sacrifice accepted by God as final/full payment for the sins of humankind.
âHad to be sinless to rise from the dead (death had no hold on Christ as He was Perfect; sinless; Deity.
The virgin birth is essential doctrine. Without it ⊠all the rest means nothing.
I see you have indeed “latched on to it”. Keep taking the tablets!
Is that all youâve got?
Solomon the wise? ..not so much, clearly!
Solomon the wise? ..not so much, clearly!
âThe virgin birth is essential doctrine. Without it ⊠all the rest means nothing.â
âKeep taking the tablets!â Meaning youâre whacko. But in fact that line about the essential doctrine in itself cannot be disputed, otherwise there is nothing. And there most certainly is something. Whether one believe in this story doesnât really matter to me. But the story itself and the weaving and joining of dots I find interesting. R Kay is right in making the comments about sin, the virgin and Jesus. There is a something perfectly rational in all this. If you can find holes in what was said, apart from saying itâs jumbo jumbo, Iâd be interested to hear them.
Doctrine, ie adhering to the strict letter of the law is, for me (and coincidentally Jesus) not that important.
The core message, understood more by the heart than the head is what is crucial.
I understand what you mean by doctrine. But that aside I find the backstory to be interesting and endless in its permutations and meanings. Equally so if in fact there was no Jesus. In Western culture itâs probably one of the greatest stories ever told that can be referred to under many different circumstances (I include the Bible itself). And even as someone who sees no proof of God I find it endlessly fascinating. Without what you might call the doctrine it comes across as something like a greeting card full of aphorisms and empty platitudes.
That is because you suffer from a poverty of understanding. Relying on scientific proof for God/Soulfulness is akin to using the same set of tools (applicable solely to material things*) to an examination of Live, Love and Beauty etc.
E.F. Shoemacher showed science is…
Good for examining matter
Poor at examining life
Useless for examining consciousness and
Absolutely useless for examining awareness
…and so: the more important the subject is the less useful science is.
* it seems, material doesn’t even exist in truth (the physicists tell us) and instead we only have information and energy. How odd that 4,000 years ago the wise described God and omniscient and omnipotent! Probably just a coincidence …not.
I always find it odd that people who believe in science, believing they are open minded to discovery of facts, just canât cope with the idea of faith, and itâs rational role in contradicting science.
I myself have no belief in any religion, but accept that I canât prove my position, so I thoroughly respect the beliefs of religious people who also canât prove their position.
I always find it odd that people who believe in science, believing they are open minded to discovery of facts, just canât cope with the idea of faith, and itâs rational role in contradicting science.
I myself have no belief in any religion, but accept that I canât prove my position, so I thoroughly respect the beliefs of religious people who also canât prove their position.
That is because you suffer from a poverty of understanding. Relying on scientific proof for God/Soulfulness is akin to using the same set of tools (applicable solely to material things*) to an examination of Live, Love and Beauty etc.
E.F. Shoemacher showed science is…
Good for examining matter
Poor at examining life
Useless for examining consciousness and
Absolutely useless for examining awareness
…and so: the more important the subject is the less useful science is.
* it seems, material doesn’t even exist in truth (the physicists tell us) and instead we only have information and energy. How odd that 4,000 years ago the wise described God and omniscient and omnipotent! Probably just a coincidence …not.
I understand what you mean by doctrine. But that aside I find the backstory to be interesting and endless in its permutations and meanings. Equally so if in fact there was no Jesus. In Western culture itâs probably one of the greatest stories ever told that can be referred to under many different circumstances (I include the Bible itself). And even as someone who sees no proof of God I find it endlessly fascinating. Without what you might call the doctrine it comes across as something like a greeting card full of aphorisms and empty platitudes.
Doctrine, ie adhering to the strict letter of the law is, for me (and coincidentally Jesus) not that important.
The core message, understood more by the heart than the head is what is crucial.
Is that all youâve got?
âThe virgin birth is essential doctrine. Without it ⊠all the rest means nothing.â
âKeep taking the tablets!â Meaning youâre whacko. But in fact that line about the essential doctrine in itself cannot be disputed, otherwise there is nothing. And there most certainly is something. Whether one believe in this story doesnât really matter to me. But the story itself and the weaving and joining of dots I find interesting. R Kay is right in making the comments about sin, the virgin and Jesus. There is a something perfectly rational in all this. If you can find holes in what was said, apart from saying itâs jumbo jumbo, Iâd be interested to hear them.
You forget Jesus rejected the term ‘good’ when applied to him saying only the Father is good (without sin).. ie ultimate divinity. I believe Jesus was not such without sin as uniquely able to avoid sin. The first is simply a bestowed power whereas the latter is a huge achievement. A far greater accolade!
Jesus never rejected the term “good.” When the rich young ruler addressed him as “Good Teacher,” Jesus wanted to know why he described him as good since only God is truly good. Put another way, Jesus could be understood as saying “Do you know who I truly am?”
In John 10, Jesus called himself “the Good Shepherd” and spoke of his oneness with God the Father, which the Jewish leaders to whom he was speaking rightfully understood as a claim to deity.
Jesus never rejected the term “good.” When the rich young ruler addressed him as “Good Teacher,” Jesus wanted to know why he described him as good since only God is truly good. Put another way, Jesus could be understood as saying “Do you know who I truly am?”
In John 10, Jesus called himself “the Good Shepherd” and spoke of his oneness with God the Father, which the Jewish leaders to whom he was speaking rightfully understood as a claim to deity.
I see you have indeed “latched on to it”. Keep taking the tablets!
You forget Jesus rejected the term ‘good’ when applied to him saying only the Father is good (without sin).. ie ultimate divinity. I believe Jesus was not such without sin as uniquely able to avoid sin. The first is simply a bestowed power whereas the latter is a huge achievement. A far greater accolade!
Interesting point.. I agree it is unimportant to all but the priestly.. the message is all.
Calling BS, Nicholas.
First, your disbelief does not render Truth untrue.
Birth had to be of a virgin so the resulting child would not have a sin nature. The Seed implanted by the Holy Spirit accomplished this.
Therefore, Jesus the Man, who fulfilled His Fatherâs will to remain sinless (inherently and volitionally) was qualified to be a proxy representative of the first parents and all human descendants on the Cross.
âHad to be sinless to pass inspection and qualify as the final Lamb of God.
âHad to be sinless to become the Federal Head of humanity and to pay for the sins of all on the cross.
âHad to be sinless to defeat death and to have His sacrifice accepted by God as final/full payment for the sins of humankind.
âHad to be sinless to rise from the dead (death had no hold on Christ as He was Perfect; sinless; Deity.
The virgin birth is essential doctrine. Without it ⊠all the rest means nothing.
Interesting point.. I agree it is unimportant to all but the priestly.. the message is all.
The supernatural claims of the gospel stories have little bearing on the teachings and living example of the historical Jesus. For centuries, some people have understood that, including William Blake (1757-1827), as exemplified in his important poem “The Everlasting Gospel”.
Looking past the metaphysical trappings: What fault do you find with the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth?
Nothing is wrong with the teachings, many come from the Hebrew Bible.
Indeed.
If you think nothing is ‘wrong’ with the OT Bible then I suggest you read it. It is largely a fictitious account of the Jewish people replete with land grabs, genocidal killings, barbaric cruelty etc. Why do you think Zionists like it so much?
Indeed.
If you think nothing is ‘wrong’ with the OT Bible then I suggest you read it. It is largely a fictitious account of the Jewish people replete with land grabs, genocidal killings, barbaric cruelty etc. Why do you think Zionists like it so much?
In the first instance, the one cannot be divorced from the other. Unless the teachings of Jesus can be accepted as “the word of god” they’re mainly a way of existing in the world without doing harm. There is no need for Jesus to teach that, since many people try not to do harm as a matter of course (without always being successful, naturally). They would’ve done so before him, since then, and in today’s world. In other words, the religion built up around his teachings is unnecessary.
Those who will do harm to others ignore his teachings anyway.
The other aspect is the ‘afterlife’, which is an emotional need to believe we’ll somehow survive our physical death, exemplified by the resurrection, of course. If it makes people feel better to believe in that aspect, providing no harm is done to them by benignly neglecting to live life to the full, that’s up to them.
Most practicing Christians believe they are living life to the full, especially since theyâre not just living for themselves, but in the service to others in accordance with their faith. In the end, weâll all find out if there is life everlasting. Personally, Iâd aspire to be a truly faithful Christian – something that has eluded me – but I live in hope and pray for our world. Merry Christmas!
Me as well – the flaw is I think faith is meant to fallow acts. We go with the rituals and fallow the rules that one day we may find faith. Faith is something worked for, not just something which happens out of the blue. And I seem to not be able to make myself do the things I should, like going to Church and becoming part of the religious fellowship, studying the Bible, doing proper prayer as taught, and so on.
Being an agnostic is maybe being Lazy. I have a signed copy of Archimandrite Sophrony’s book, and he is a Saint, he signed it for my mother, and I know to be one of faith is the hardest path.
Camel through the eye of the needle stuff. The Desert Fathers, his years on Mount Athos – I cannot imagine having the discipline to earn such faith, it is such work, and then the greater the faith, the more is demanded – Christianity is a very hard religion in what it requires.
Me as well – the flaw is I think faith is meant to fallow acts. We go with the rituals and fallow the rules that one day we may find faith. Faith is something worked for, not just something which happens out of the blue. And I seem to not be able to make myself do the things I should, like going to Church and becoming part of the religious fellowship, studying the Bible, doing proper prayer as taught, and so on.
Being an agnostic is maybe being Lazy. I have a signed copy of Archimandrite Sophrony’s book, and he is a Saint, he signed it for my mother, and I know to be one of faith is the hardest path.
Camel through the eye of the needle stuff. The Desert Fathers, his years on Mount Athos – I cannot imagine having the discipline to earn such faith, it is such work, and then the greater the faith, the more is demanded – Christianity is a very hard religion in what it requires.
Was not the ‘new’ part of Jesus’ teaching his universalism?
Doing no harm may not have been new (though I don’t know of a precedent for ‘turning the other cheek’ and the ‘meekness’ that so infuriated Nietzsche), but the idea of one’s obligations being to a universal human brotherhood, rather than one’s class, tribe, state or religion, surely was?
Yes. To me, that new quality is even more powerfully exemplified in this saying: “Love thine enemy, and pray for those who despitefully use you”–a radical message of compassion and forgiveness.
…and dangerous to the status quo and so the ‘elites’ of the time. Just like now!
We’re in agreement here, Liam. Merry Christmas.
Feliz Natal from sunny Portugal!
I bid you a good Boxing Day from San José, California. Twilight and 15C on a mild Christmas Day here.
Hah.. we’ve got 19° in sunny Salema, Algarve. I loved San Francisco when I was there many years ago with my good friend Richard Burke PhD, physicist and Christian Scientist and his lovely (5th!) wife Polly in San Mateo.. Happy days!
Hah.. we’ve got 19° in sunny Salema, Algarve. I loved San Francisco when I was there many years ago with my good friend Richard Burke PhD, physicist and Christian Scientist and his lovely (5th!) wife Polly in San Mateo.. Happy days!
I bid you a good Boxing Day from San José, California. Twilight and 15C on a mild Christmas Day here.
Feliz Natal from sunny Portugal!
We’re in agreement here, Liam. Merry Christmas.
…and dangerous to the status quo and so the ‘elites’ of the time. Just like now!
We underestimate the significance of the Pax Romana as setting the cultural ambience across the empire for the people to experience ‘freedom from harm’, ‘meekness’ and ‘universalism’ in their everyday lives. It set the stage for the invention and promulgation of the myth of Jesus Christ as the agent who miraculously ushered in this new world through divine providence. Paul’s zeal was fuelled by the exhilaration of being a Roman citizen in the empire of peace.
Christianity has spread over the centuries to bring peace and order, prosperous stability through hegemonial power. The founding miracle was the Pax Romana. Today, Christendom hinges on the hegemony of the USA.
Your final sentence jumped off the page for me! Surely, the US (govt, military industrial complex and deluded fundamentalists et al) is the antithesis of everything, and I mean everything Jesus preached and stood for?
I’m glad you didn’t refer to Pax Americana with its demonic history of murder, mayhem and destruction all over the world!
Pax Romana was a good deal less evil but still involved genocidal murder, criminal taxation, dreadful cruelty and denial of truth.
Your final sentence jumped off the page for me! Surely, the US (govt, military industrial complex and deluded fundamentalists et al) is the antithesis of everything, and I mean everything Jesus preached and stood for?
I’m glad you didn’t refer to Pax Americana with its demonic history of murder, mayhem and destruction all over the world!
Pax Romana was a good deal less evil but still involved genocidal murder, criminal taxation, dreadful cruelty and denial of truth.
..and that surely would have infuriated the leaders of such tribes, states and religions!
Yes. To me, that new quality is even more powerfully exemplified in this saying: “Love thine enemy, and pray for those who despitefully use you”–a radical message of compassion and forgiveness.
We underestimate the significance of the Pax Romana as setting the cultural ambience across the empire for the people to experience ‘freedom from harm’, ‘meekness’ and ‘universalism’ in their everyday lives. It set the stage for the invention and promulgation of the myth of Jesus Christ as the agent who miraculously ushered in this new world through divine providence. Paul’s zeal was fuelled by the exhilaration of being a Roman citizen in the empire of peace.
Christianity has spread over the centuries to bring peace and order, prosperous stability through hegemonial power. The founding miracle was the Pax Romana. Today, Christendom hinges on the hegemony of the USA.
..and that surely would have infuriated the leaders of such tribes, states and religions!
They most certainly can be divorced from one another. I can’t read and respect the Dhammapada or Bhagavad Gita unless I accept every Buddhist or Hindu claim?
I prefer the nomenclature Jesus of Nazareth and Gautama Siddhartha. While they don’t seem to me to have been ordinary people, I do think they were human, and focusing on a purported superhuman or divine status detracts from the teachings, attributing their words and actions to some kind of magic-ness, falsely making their paths seem un-walkable for others, rather than steep and hard, but possible to emulate. To me, the prevailing messages have to do with how to live and treat one another now, with the only life we’re sure to have while we have it.
In the prayer that Jesus offered to everyone (“Our Father, who art in heaven…”), he never mentions himself, nor
an afterlifepersonal salvation.{corrected: my claim was too absolute–or perhaps I’ll just admit I was mistaken–in the final clause}
“…thy kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven…”?
Fair enough, you got me. I should have at least run through something I’ve memorized and internalized before making that assertion. The words of the prayer are still completely away from any mention of Jesus himself, and emphasizing forgiveness and mercy on Earth, not personal salvation.
You also omitted the words “Thy will be done” in the middle of what you’ve quoted, perhaps for effect. Cheers.
You simplify too much.. eternal life is the timeless life of the soul, available (barely with a lot of effort) in the here and now. The ‘kingdom of Heaven is nigh’ ..In fact it’s right here but not so easy to attain (enlightened); especially for anyone who is negative, stupid, stubborn, in denial or indeed overly doctrinaire!
I agree with you, even regarding your observation/accusation that I simplify too much. But not always. I would offer you this reply, and reminder to myself:
âDo not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgement you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbourâs eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbour, âLet me take the speck out of your eyeâ, while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbourâs eye’. [NRSV]
May there be peace on Earth and goodwill among all people, today and some day.
Mea culpa.. I meant them as observations open to contradiction, never as judgements but I accept that is what they look like.. my later comments were addressed generally btw not to you at all!
Mea culpa.. I meant them as observations open to contradiction, never as judgements but I accept that is what they look like.. my later comments were addressed generally btw not to you at all!
I agree with you, even regarding your observation/accusation that I simplify too much. But not always. I would offer you this reply, and reminder to myself:
âDo not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgement you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbourâs eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbour, âLet me take the speck out of your eyeâ, while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbourâs eye’. [NRSV]
May there be peace on Earth and goodwill among all people, today and some day.
You simplify too much.. eternal life is the timeless life of the soul, available (barely with a lot of effort) in the here and now. The ‘kingdom of Heaven is nigh’ ..In fact it’s right here but not so easy to attain (enlightened); especially for anyone who is negative, stupid, stubborn, in denial or indeed overly doctrinaire!
Fair enough, you got me. I should have at least run through something I’ve memorized and internalized before making that assertion. The words of the prayer are still completely away from any mention of Jesus himself, and emphasizing forgiveness and mercy on Earth, not personal salvation.
You also omitted the words “Thy will be done” in the middle of what you’ve quoted, perhaps for effect. Cheers.
“…thy kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven…”?
Living within the grim strictures of those most extreme Protestant sects makes believing in an afterlife prerequisite, I think.
You confuse afterlife with eternal life. Big difference..
Ahh. You are a deist. Okay. I can accept that.
Ahh. You are a deist. Okay. I can accept that.
–
You confuse afterlife with eternal life. Big difference..
–
Most practicing Christians believe they are living life to the full, especially since theyâre not just living for themselves, but in the service to others in accordance with their faith. In the end, weâll all find out if there is life everlasting. Personally, Iâd aspire to be a truly faithful Christian – something that has eluded me – but I live in hope and pray for our world. Merry Christmas!
Was not the ‘new’ part of Jesus’ teaching his universalism?
Doing no harm may not have been new (though I don’t know of a precedent for ‘turning the other cheek’ and the ‘meekness’ that so infuriated Nietzsche), but the idea of one’s obligations being to a universal human brotherhood, rather than one’s class, tribe, state or religion, surely was?
They most certainly can be divorced from one another. I can’t read and respect the Dhammapada or Bhagavad Gita unless I accept every Buddhist or Hindu claim?
I prefer the nomenclature Jesus of Nazareth and Gautama Siddhartha. While they don’t seem to me to have been ordinary people, I do think they were human, and focusing on a purported superhuman or divine status detracts from the teachings, attributing their words and actions to some kind of magic-ness, falsely making their paths seem un-walkable for others, rather than steep and hard, but possible to emulate. To me, the prevailing messages have to do with how to live and treat one another now, with the only life we’re sure to have while we have it.
In the prayer that Jesus offered to everyone (“Our Father, who art in heaven…”), he never mentions himself, nor
an afterlifepersonal salvation.{corrected: my claim was too absolute–or perhaps I’ll just admit I was mistaken–in the final clause}
Living within the grim strictures of those most extreme Protestant sects makes believing in an afterlife prerequisite, I think.
Nothing is wrong with the teachings, many come from the Hebrew Bible.
In the first instance, the one cannot be divorced from the other. Unless the teachings of Jesus can be accepted as “the word of god” they’re mainly a way of existing in the world without doing harm. There is no need for Jesus to teach that, since many people try not to do harm as a matter of course (without always being successful, naturally). They would’ve done so before him, since then, and in today’s world. In other words, the religion built up around his teachings is unnecessary.
Those who will do harm to others ignore his teachings anyway.
The other aspect is the ‘afterlife’, which is an emotional need to believe we’ll somehow survive our physical death, exemplified by the resurrection, of course. If it makes people feel better to believe in that aspect, providing no harm is done to them by benignly neglecting to live life to the full, that’s up to them.
In the multi-denominational Roman world, cults overlaid upon one another created a cross-fertilisation of beliefs and mythologies. Diana, the virgin goddess who had a large following in Asia Minor, was the likely cause for the development of the cult of Mary by the Christian hierarchy. Let’s call it “inclusivity” in the name of expanding the cultural – and political – hegemony of the early church.