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Brexit exposed the Westminster elite Fifty years after entering the EC, Britain has become a global irrelevance

Our potential was not unleashed. Credit: Ben Stansall/AFP/Getty

Our potential was not unleashed. Credit: Ben Stansall/AFP/Getty


December 31, 2022   6 mins

On New Year’s Day, this year a liminal moment between a bad 2022 and what is sure to be a worse 2023, how are we to mark the 50th anniversary of Britain’s ill-starred entry into the European Community? Perhaps some insight can be gleaned from the contemporary historiography of the British state itself. For the great historian J.G.A. Pocock, writing at the time of Britain’s entry to the EC, the “obvious absurdity” of the momentous decision that “neither empire nor commonwealth ever meant much in their consciousness, and that they were at heart Europeans all the time” came as a great psychic shock.

A New Zealander, previously secure in his oceanic British identity, Pocock worked through the implications of the moment in his 1973 lecture, “British History: a Plea for a New Subject”, composed, he would later note, immediately “after the great divorce which occurred when you told us that you were now Europeans, which we, as New Zealanders, were not”. It was a conceptual reordering which meant “you cared as little for our past as for our future”.

Yet, Pocock observed, the implications for Britain were just as great as for the home archipelago’s imperial cast-offs. For after all: “if it has been psychologically possible for them to annihilate the idea of the Commonwealth…it is not altogether beyond the bounds of possibility that ‘United Kingdom’ and even ‘Britain’ may some day become similarly inconvenient and be annihilated, or annihilate themselves, in their turn.”

Without a grand overseas project with which to occupy itself, the centre itself, focused on Westminster, may not hold. Future historians may find themselves writing of “a ‘Unionist’ or even a ‘British’ period in the history of the peoples inhabiting the Atlantic Archipelago, and locating it between a date in the 13th, the 17th or the 19th centuries and a date in the 20th or the 21st.”

What evidence for this prediction can we find, a half-century later, in the collapsing British state of 2023? It is self-evident that the act of leaving the EU was an act of self-definition, a great inward turn to force the questions of what Britain is and what it should be back to the heart of national politics. Support for Brexit was closely aligned in the minds of its voters with a return to an economy of domestic industrial production, and to a drastic reduction in the historically unprecedented levels of inward migration to which the British political class had committed itself.

Yet the Brexit we got was another Brexit entirely: a vision of Britain as a global trading power entirely unmoored from the realities of its position, a product of the fact that our politicians, for all that effective governance of the UK remains beyond them, find our islands too small a stage for their talents. Johnson, Truss, and Sunak are each in their own ways exemplars of how the ideology of global Britain has made the British governing class incapable of running a small northwest European archipelago, prisoners of a delusion that Britain must always strive to be world-beating, even as it struggles to maintain parity with its closest neighbours.

For the Welsh political philosopher and former Labour MP David Marquand, writing in 1995 in a collection of essays engaging with Pocock’s grand conceptual reordering of our island story, such global pretensions were baked into Britishness from the start. As he observed, “for most of its history, the identity embodied by the British state was quintessentially global, oceanic, imperial and, by virtue of this, non- or at least extra-European”. The new British state’s justification was the consolidation of the various kingdoms of these islands in a grand imperial project, with the result being a vision of the British state and people which Marquand termed “whig imperialist”. And at its heart, he said, “lay the twin themes of globalism and constitutionalism. The British state was, by definition, a global state; and the British people, by definition, was a global people.”

As Marquand observed, “the Whig imperialist vision of the British state helped to shape the mentality of the entire political class, left as well as right”. Whig imperialist Britain was Britain. “The British state was the child as well as the parent of empire. Its iconography, its operational codes, the instinctive reflexes of its rulers and managers were stamped through and through with the presuppositions of empire.” Even as the empire fell away, its ghosts still haunt Westminster, in inverted form, as a needy internationalism and an aesthetic distaste for the homely and familiar. Unlike our European neighbours, whose revolutions and wars of national independence helped clarify a secure sense of nationhood, Britain’s relentless focus on the periphery left a hollow void at the centre, at least for its rulers. As Marquand, now a convert to Welsh nationalism, observes, “shorn of empire, ‘Britain’ had no meaning”.

This interpretation does much to explain the strange pathologies of the 21st-century Westminster class, and elucidates the strange mystery of why Britain, more or less uniquely in Europe, possesses a markedly anti-national commenting class (intelligentsia is not quite the right word), whose European pretensions, like the continental affectations of a Hyacinth Bucket, are simply those of the provincial petit bourgeois, repelled by the drab simplicities of home. It explains why Britain, for a European country, is uniquely at risk of self-dissolution by global economic forces, and why its governing class’s sense of national identity, as far as can be judged from its citizenship tests, is such thin gruel, entirely indistinguishable from vague internationalist norms of liberal tolerance. It explains the compulsion towards mass immigration, entirely inconsistent with the demands of British voters: for as the empire folded in on itself, sucking the empire’s global children in along with it like a collapsing star, it became easier to remake Britain in the image of the world than to shape the world in a way congenial to British desires.

Such an interpretation also explains the extraordinary ease with which Britain’s governing class has reduced the country to a powerless factotum of America’s global empire, and the degree to which such total self-abnegation of sovereignty is presented and experienced, not as a humiliation fetish but as the natural order of things, and the bedrock of Britain’s security. To maintain its global pretensions, the Westminster class has been forced into a posture of what Perry Anderson termed “hyper-subalternity to the US in an era when America had become the sole super-power”. It explains why our Right-wing populists are enamoured of globalised free markets even as they rail against “globalism”, why our state broadcaster functions as a vector of America’s new ideological fixations, and why our royals as well as our politicians look longingly at the better opportunities to be found in California. It explains, too, why our sole national institution, the NHS, sucks both staff and patients from around the world, finding its merely national mission too paltry for its dignity, and the humanitarian obligations of the British taxpayer too bountiful to be shared only among the British people.

For the British governing class, and its taste-making hangers on, Britain as a small European country is simply too small a stage to bother with. Yet instead of addressing these tensions, surely the underlying cause of the failures of British governance which drove Brexit in the first place, the result of Brexit has only been to heighten them: more immigration, the Indo-Pacific tilt, the endless attempt to summon a Global Britain into being in a post-imperial world. The contradictions between Britain’s world-leading pretensions and shabby material realities are now becoming too sharp for the state to effectively manage. If Brexit has foregrounded one essential fact of British politics it is that the problems facing the country are rooted in its governing class: a class which swooped together with organic solidarity after Brexit to prevent any democratic attempt to redirect its course, and frittered away the country’s economic sovereignty on dreams of global relevance.

As Pocock observed, the Wars of the Three Kingdoms which accelerated the consolidation of the British state in Westminster were the result of England’s governing class attempting to resolve their own political divisions through the incorporation of their neighbours in a greater, shared project. For “the English did not want such a war, but found that they had to fight it with each other; and they hated it so much that they imposed it on Scotland and Ireland in the attempt to resolve it. The imperial sovereignty they imposed on other nations was an effect of the imperial sovereignty they had imposed on themselves.”

Britain’s entry into the EC was itself, likewise, a failed attempt to recapture a greater stage on which Britain could play a global role, and foundered on the same tensions, the inward-looking domesticity of the British electorate rebelling against the outward-facing cosmopolitanism of its governing caste. Always the foil of other nations’ acts of self-definition — a process now continuing, with Scotland, even in the home islands — Britain never saw the need or found the occasion to do so for itself. In the collapse of Britain’s empire, then, the only anti-imperial project that failed was that of liberating Britain from its own rulers.

But is it possible to liberate Britain from Westminster while maintaining the Union? The Union’s collapse would surely only leave us stuck with the same governing elite on a smaller and more claustrophobic scale, just as the cosmopolitan pretensions of the various Celtic nationalisms are, if anything, even more hysterical and absurd than those of the Union as a whole. Yet any attempt at a British Meiji restoration similarly falters on the unavoidable fact that the British governing class has very little interest in the governance of Britain itself — instead it recoils from it, as a distraction from the glittering possibilities of the wider world.

Such an elite makes a shaky foundation for a project of national renewal, yet without a total overhaul of Britain’s governing class, the remaining time in which to advance such a project is rapidly slipping away, before the nation dissolves itself with an affected smirk of enlightened tolerance. The revolt against Brussels then, was always just the opening salvo, on a continental front, of a far more difficult campaign: to become a prosperous European country, Britain must still liberate itself from the self-defeating foibles and global aspirations of the Westminster class.


Aris Roussinos is an UnHerd columnist and a former war reporter.

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Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

“the British governing class has very little interest in the governance of Britain itself”
I feel like that’s the state of most countries now. Worse still, they’re blocking the way for others who might have a genuine interest and capability to do it. 

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

They are just following instructions from the financial-technical elites.

Robert Eagle
Robert Eagle
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

Whenever I read the word “elite’ these days I assume the words are coming from a conspiracy theorist.

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Eagle

There’s always an ‘elite’ because brains, looks and talent aren’t distributed equally. The elite today is more about those attributes rather than aristocracy. That has to be an improvement.

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago
Reply to  Deb Grant

Not an improvement. Brains are dangerous. Either way all that”talent” is morally worthless when it comes with ever increasing arrogance and a neurotic need for power. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

David Batlle
David Batlle
1 year ago
Reply to  Deb Grant

Mengele had brains, so not sure what point you think you’re making.

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago
Reply to  Deb Grant

Not an improvement. Brains are dangerous. Either way all that”talent” is morally worthless when it comes with ever increasing arrogance and a neurotic need for power. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

David Batlle
David Batlle
1 year ago
Reply to  Deb Grant

Mengele had brains, so not sure what point you think you’re making.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Eagle

And that “Globalist” is an anti semitic slur?

David Batlle
David Batlle
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike Michaels

Yes, and the slur is always in quotes, “globalist”, because it’s just a “conspiracy theory”.

David Batlle
David Batlle
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike Michaels

Yes, and the slur is always in quotes, “globalist”, because it’s just a “conspiracy theory”.

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Eagle

The world is full of sheep and copy cats (we are a social animal). It ends up a case of chinese whispers when words lose their meaning through overuse. Words like elite, woke, Nazi, offence, abuse, problematic, privilege, etc. Which isn’t to say a lot of people don’t still understand the core, original meaning. Banks and techie billionaires do have global power, do have the ultimate say, cannot be unelected. They are elite.

David Batlle
David Batlle
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Eagle

Congratulations, you just invented a new conspiracy theory.

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Eagle

There’s always an ‘elite’ because brains, looks and talent aren’t distributed equally. The elite today is more about those attributes rather than aristocracy. That has to be an improvement.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Eagle

And that “Globalist” is an anti semitic slur?

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Eagle

The world is full of sheep and copy cats (we are a social animal). It ends up a case of chinese whispers when words lose their meaning through overuse. Words like elite, woke, Nazi, offence, abuse, problematic, privilege, etc. Which isn’t to say a lot of people don’t still understand the core, original meaning. Banks and techie billionaires do have global power, do have the ultimate say, cannot be unelected. They are elite.

David Batlle
David Batlle
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Eagle

Congratulations, you just invented a new conspiracy theory.

Robert Eagle
Robert Eagle
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

Whenever I read the word “elite’ these days I assume the words are coming from a conspiracy theorist.

David Owsley
David Owsley
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

“Worse still, they’re blocking the way for others who might have a genuine interest and capability to do it.”
VERY good point: they’re pulling up the ladder. Currently I doubt 10% of the politicians (total from all parties) are worth keeping.
“How Brexit exposed the Westminster elite…”
Indeed, ‘the enemy’ showed their faces. I mean enemy in a literal sense.
Same is true on a global scale with the rage against Trump; agree with him or not, the ‘Left’s’ rage continues.

Last edited 1 year ago by David Owsley
Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 year ago
Reply to  David Owsley

No one really good, probably except Rishi Sunak, wants to be a politician- it’s like putting one’s head on the stocks.

Jeanie K
Jeanie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Deb Grant

Sunak is not really good, except perhaps for himself and his wife. Anyone who wants to be a politician is probably not really cut out for it.

Jeanie K
Jeanie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Deb Grant

Sunak is not really good, except perhaps for himself and his wife. Anyone who wants to be a politician is probably not really cut out for it.

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  David Owsley

Well said David , we elect them and pay them to do one thing and they commit treason and do quite the opposite and this is fairly typical of many of today’s politicians , completely self serving and deliberately disobedient .It takes far too long to get rid of them !

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 year ago
Reply to  David Owsley

No one really good, probably except Rishi Sunak, wants to be a politician- it’s like putting one’s head on the stocks.

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  David Owsley

Well said David , we elect them and pay them to do one thing and they commit treason and do quite the opposite and this is fairly typical of many of today’s politicians , completely self serving and deliberately disobedient .It takes far too long to get rid of them !

Paul Devlin
Paul Devlin
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

So true. Our politicians in Ireland are just viziers for the EU and vulture funds. Our media is just a Euro-stalinist propaganda ministry. Its a terrible state of affairs

Phineas Bury
Phineas Bury
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Devlin

And both media and politicians rejoice in decline of UK because it left EU. Anglophobia being the foundation stone of the Irish state now in hands of USA multinationals

Paul Devlin
Paul Devlin
1 year ago
Reply to  Phineas Bury

Irish nationalism was the foundation stone of the state, not ‘anglophobia’ whatever that means

Paul Devlin
Paul Devlin
1 year ago
Reply to  Phineas Bury

Irish nationalism was the foundation stone of the state, not ‘anglophobia’ whatever that means

Phineas Bury
Phineas Bury
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Devlin

And both media and politicians rejoice in decline of UK because it left EU. Anglophobia being the foundation stone of the Irish state now in hands of USA multinationals

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Those with a genuine interest and capability are up against it. Cancel culture is a mere whisper of the real thing. If we don’t toe the line we are out in the cold. Short and curlies springs to mind. However if a would be politician can write out a manifesto describing how we can go it alone I would be 100% behind him (O.K. or her).

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Vici C

”if a would be politician can write out a manifesto describing how we can go it alone I would be 100% behind him (O.K. or her).”
Politician, or anyone else?

Bill Tomlinson
Bill Tomlinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Vici C

Take a good look at apartheid -era South Africa.

With an effective population of only about 7 million it made itself the world leader in a number of technologies, eg:

1. Deep level mining – and associated refrigeration

2. Petrochemicals (e.g. Sasol)

3. Uranium enrichment

4. Artillery

and many others. If South Africa could do it – starting pretty much as an agricultural economy – then so can Britain.

Never forget that we indigenous Britons carry within us the same genes as the people who started the Industrial Revolution.

David Fawcett
David Fawcett
1 year ago
Reply to  Bill Tomlinson

South Africa in the 60s, 70s and 80s was not encumbered with the Left-wing Luddites that infest our land these days. If we can restart the fracking plants, a British industrial Renaissance is much more possible.

David Fawcett
David Fawcett
1 year ago
Reply to  Bill Tomlinson

South Africa in the 60s, 70s and 80s was not encumbered with the Left-wing Luddites that infest our land these days. If we can restart the fracking plants, a British industrial Renaissance is much more possible.

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  Vici C

Yes, the politicians we elect and pay to do our bidding are a teasonous bunch and they work against us , trouble is it takes so long to rid ourselves of them .

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Vici C

”if a would be politician can write out a manifesto describing how we can go it alone I would be 100% behind him (O.K. or her).”
Politician, or anyone else?

Bill Tomlinson
Bill Tomlinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Vici C

Take a good look at apartheid -era South Africa.

With an effective population of only about 7 million it made itself the world leader in a number of technologies, eg:

1. Deep level mining – and associated refrigeration

2. Petrochemicals (e.g. Sasol)

3. Uranium enrichment

4. Artillery

and many others. If South Africa could do it – starting pretty much as an agricultural economy – then so can Britain.

Never forget that we indigenous Britons carry within us the same genes as the people who started the Industrial Revolution.

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  Vici C

Yes, the politicians we elect and pay to do our bidding are a teasonous bunch and they work against us , trouble is it takes so long to rid ourselves of them .

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Over the past forty years the government has become more and more centralised so that now it’s in the hands of no more than fifty people. They control the media, the Civil Service and both political parties. They all know each other because they were together at Oxford. What passes for elections is a pantomime put on to persuade the rest of us that there is still something democratic about this. There isn’t. We need both PR and massive devolution. Brexit was just the first step.

Martin Terrell
Martin Terrell
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Brexit may have been the only step!

Jeanie K
Jeanie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I’m all for PR. You do mean a Pitchfork Revolution don’t you?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeanie K

Ideally , yes. But failing that I’ll settle for proportional representation and a right of recall.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeanie K

Ideally , yes. But failing that I’ll settle for proportional representation and a right of recall.

Martin Terrell
Martin Terrell
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Brexit may have been the only step!

Jeanie K
Jeanie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I’m all for PR. You do mean a Pitchfork Revolution don’t you?

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

They are anti Brexit and we elect and pay for them to do our bidding but they are working against us . They are our servants but behave like they are the masters and it must not go on .

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

They are just following instructions from the financial-technical elites.

David Owsley
David Owsley
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

“Worse still, they’re blocking the way for others who might have a genuine interest and capability to do it.”
VERY good point: they’re pulling up the ladder. Currently I doubt 10% of the politicians (total from all parties) are worth keeping.
“How Brexit exposed the Westminster elite…”
Indeed, ‘the enemy’ showed their faces. I mean enemy in a literal sense.
Same is true on a global scale with the rage against Trump; agree with him or not, the ‘Left’s’ rage continues.

Last edited 1 year ago by David Owsley
Paul Devlin
Paul Devlin
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

So true. Our politicians in Ireland are just viziers for the EU and vulture funds. Our media is just a Euro-stalinist propaganda ministry. Its a terrible state of affairs

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Those with a genuine interest and capability are up against it. Cancel culture is a mere whisper of the real thing. If we don’t toe the line we are out in the cold. Short and curlies springs to mind. However if a would be politician can write out a manifesto describing how we can go it alone I would be 100% behind him (O.K. or her).

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Over the past forty years the government has become more and more centralised so that now it’s in the hands of no more than fifty people. They control the media, the Civil Service and both political parties. They all know each other because they were together at Oxford. What passes for elections is a pantomime put on to persuade the rest of us that there is still something democratic about this. There isn’t. We need both PR and massive devolution. Brexit was just the first step.

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

They are anti Brexit and we elect and pay for them to do our bidding but they are working against us . They are our servants but behave like they are the masters and it must not go on .

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

“the British governing class has very little interest in the governance of Britain itself”
I feel like that’s the state of most countries now. Worse still, they’re blocking the way for others who might have a genuine interest and capability to do it. 

Jim Jam
Jim Jam
1 year ago

Seems pretty much on the money, unfortunately.

When it becomes inconceivable that any member of the ruling class would dare or have the slightest inclination to utter the words “Britain first” then what follows can only be terminal decline.

Its not just that our leaders and commenting class have lost faith in Britain – seeing, as they have, that our only chance for success relies on outsourcing large sections of governance to technocrats in Brussels or otherwise merging into a globalist nothing-state – but it seems that they consider the entire concept of self determination & independence distasteful; problematic and xenophobic even.

Needless to say, when it has become a requirement for all members of the ‘intelligentsia’ to attend what has become a sprawling leftist indoctrination centre for years on end, what we have ended up with should come as no suprise whatsoever.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Jam
Andrew Buckley
Andrew Buckley
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

True Jim Jam – but outsourcing all the difficult decisions and hard work means that people can maintain their life positions without worrying about actually doing the hard lifting.

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

I must say I would trade the ‘nothing states of Norway and Switzerland’ for the UK pretty darn quick. What matters in a nation is the general prosperity and happiness, not the irrelevant super-egos of overgrown children who like to call themselves politicians.

Jim Jam
Jim Jam
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

I certainly wouldn’t describe Norway as a nothing-state. Though – much like much of Europe and the UK – if progressivism and the ‘citizens of nowhere’ mentality continues unopposed it will soon become one. It won’t have escaped your notice that the Norwegian (and Swedish, Italian, Polish, Danish etc) citizenry are aware of this fact – that without a strong, autonomous nation state, to be ‘Norwegian’ means next to nothing. Any Tom d**k or Harry from anywhere in the world is on an equal footing, which means the steady dilution of identity, comfort, security and happiness. This is precisely the reason support for right leaning parties is on the steady ascendancy there and elsewhere. Its a tragedy there is not a credible rightwing profelactic here in the UK.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Jam
Phil Rees
Phil Rees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

I find it heartening that at least one person has understood the article and the situation we are now in. If only we were able to become the small off-shore island country and get on with the business of governing ourselves for the benefit of our people. But the article makes clear why this can never be unless there is a complete revolution; but there won’t be.

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

Yes we haven’t got a conservative party any longer but we have a party to replace them led by Richard Tice , REFORM !

Phil Rees
Phil Rees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

I find it heartening that at least one person has understood the article and the situation we are now in. If only we were able to become the small off-shore island country and get on with the business of governing ourselves for the benefit of our people. But the article makes clear why this can never be unless there is a complete revolution; but there won’t be.

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

Yes we haven’t got a conservative party any longer but we have a party to replace them led by Richard Tice , REFORM !

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

Well, Switzerland, anyway.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

Yes indeed, I second that.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

Yes indeed, I second that.

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

In some ways yes BUT they are both highly conservative societies with an almost iron rule of law. The traditional British individualism that you see with the “rules don’t apply to me” politicos and the yob culture couldn’t exist there. Then neither could the inventors and entrepreneurs that UK still produces, albeit now they are often sold out to globalists. The solution to that problem is IMO a regulatory-legal issue.

Last edited 1 year ago by mike otter
L Walker
L Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

I have really fond memories of two Norwegian women I met in 1970. So I’m fond of Norway. Switzerland, not as much. I live in the ex colonies in Florida. I also have VERY fond memories of a Canadian girl.

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  L Walker

so what??

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  L Walker

so what??

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

superficial cynicism…

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

Yes we have had any good ethos squashed by people we pay to work for us and to do as they are told but who arrogantly work against us .

Jim Jam
Jim Jam
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

I certainly wouldn’t describe Norway as a nothing-state. Though – much like much of Europe and the UK – if progressivism and the ‘citizens of nowhere’ mentality continues unopposed it will soon become one. It won’t have escaped your notice that the Norwegian (and Swedish, Italian, Polish, Danish etc) citizenry are aware of this fact – that without a strong, autonomous nation state, to be ‘Norwegian’ means next to nothing. Any Tom d**k or Harry from anywhere in the world is on an equal footing, which means the steady dilution of identity, comfort, security and happiness. This is precisely the reason support for right leaning parties is on the steady ascendancy there and elsewhere. Its a tragedy there is not a credible rightwing profelactic here in the UK.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Jam
Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

Well, Switzerland, anyway.

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

In some ways yes BUT they are both highly conservative societies with an almost iron rule of law. The traditional British individualism that you see with the “rules don’t apply to me” politicos and the yob culture couldn’t exist there. Then neither could the inventors and entrepreneurs that UK still produces, albeit now they are often sold out to globalists. The solution to that problem is IMO a regulatory-legal issue.

Last edited 1 year ago by mike otter
L Walker
L Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

I have really fond memories of two Norwegian women I met in 1970. So I’m fond of Norway. Switzerland, not as much. I live in the ex colonies in Florida. I also have VERY fond memories of a Canadian girl.

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

superficial cynicism…

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

Yes we have had any good ethos squashed by people we pay to work for us and to do as they are told but who arrogantly work against us .

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

Lost faith ? NO they will just not do as they are told and there is a big difference .

Andrew Buckley
Andrew Buckley
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

True Jim Jam – but outsourcing all the difficult decisions and hard work means that people can maintain their life positions without worrying about actually doing the hard lifting.

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

I must say I would trade the ‘nothing states of Norway and Switzerland’ for the UK pretty darn quick. What matters in a nation is the general prosperity and happiness, not the irrelevant super-egos of overgrown children who like to call themselves politicians.

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Jam

Lost faith ? NO they will just not do as they are told and there is a big difference .

Jim Jam
Jim Jam
1 year ago

Seems pretty much on the money, unfortunately.

When it becomes inconceivable that any member of the ruling class would dare or have the slightest inclination to utter the words “Britain first” then what follows can only be terminal decline.

Its not just that our leaders and commenting class have lost faith in Britain – seeing, as they have, that our only chance for success relies on outsourcing large sections of governance to technocrats in Brussels or otherwise merging into a globalist nothing-state – but it seems that they consider the entire concept of self determination & independence distasteful; problematic and xenophobic even.

Needless to say, when it has become a requirement for all members of the ‘intelligentsia’ to attend what has become a sprawling leftist indoctrination centre for years on end, what we have ended up with should come as no suprise whatsoever.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Jam
Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago

After 50 years of divesting itself of any real power, shovelling ever-greater chunks of responsibility through the Channel Tunnel to Brussels, Westminster has been handed the task of actually governing a country again. Our own country. And, from top to bottom, Westminster is trying to dodge the job, for which it knows itself to be now totally unqualified.
The distractions of a pandemic and a global energy crisis have obscured the fact for a while, but the truth is that, if we want a competent government for Britain (a fortiori for its constituent countries) we need to advertise the post. Because there’s little sign that the current crop in Parliament or the Civil Service is qualified to do it.

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

That’s only part if the story. They are nothing loth to simply stroll away whistling, provided only that their privileges and sinecures are preserved. That’s the problem; they were coming to the uncomfortable realisation that they are simply not good enough to make it in the USA and excluded from the inner elites of Europe.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

I quite agree. Very well put.

Eleanor Barlow
Eleanor Barlow
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

The reason I voted Remain in the 2016 referendum is not because I hold any sentimental views about the EU, but because I didn’t trust any of the current generation of politicians to be able to successfully deliver a project as massive and complex as Brexit. So it seemed to me less disruptive to stay put. It now seems that my scepticism about the abilities of our politicians was not misplaced.

Charles Gordon
Charles Gordon
1 year ago
Reply to  Eleanor Barlow

Unfortunately, I’m utterly unconvinced that any EU politicians/administrators are any mor competent than our own sorry crop, and they’re almost certainly more corrupt into the bargain

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Eleanor Barlow

That seems not to make sense. You either think the country is better in the EU or out, but you surely wouldn’t make the wrong choice out of a fear the right choice might be executed badly?

Tim C Taylor
Tim C Taylor
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I’m like Eleanor on this, and we’re far from alone. I could see many positive arguments for Brexit, but had no confidence in our ruling class to implement it competently so we could realise the benefits. Nothing has changed that view.

Jeanie K
Jeanie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Tim C Taylor

In less than 2 years you can vote to change our current incompetents. When are you going to vote for the leaders/commissioners (eg Von der Leyon) etc. of the EU?

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeanie K
John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Tim C Taylor

It is certainly true that we have not yet gained substantial benefits from leaving, but that is almost completely the result of an Establishment refusal to take the opportunities available.

There is also, of course, the counterfactual position: you cannot compare the UK of 2023 to the UK of 2016 prior to the referendum, because EU membership involves the ongoing surrender of power to Brussels. The status quo is not an option. So the comparison has to be with the UK that we’d have by 2023 if we’d voted to Remain, after 7 years of probably-accelerated integration.

This can only ever be speculation of course, but it is pretty hard to avoid the prospect that we would now be harnessed into a European defence arrangement of some sort that would be the Single European Army with only the name changed, and prominent Europhiles would now by walking around with their pants permanently on fire because they’re trying to get us to believe that joining the Euro will make us all richer.

You are right to be sceptical of the ability of our political class to do anything right, but the problem is that this applies even more so if we were in the EU and had those same people responsible for protecting what’s left of our democratic rights. It would be a worse situation than now no matter which way you cut it.

Jeanie K
Jeanie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Tim C Taylor

In less than 2 years you can vote to change our current incompetents. When are you going to vote for the leaders/commissioners (eg Von der Leyon) etc. of the EU?

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeanie K
John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Tim C Taylor

It is certainly true that we have not yet gained substantial benefits from leaving, but that is almost completely the result of an Establishment refusal to take the opportunities available.

There is also, of course, the counterfactual position: you cannot compare the UK of 2023 to the UK of 2016 prior to the referendum, because EU membership involves the ongoing surrender of power to Brussels. The status quo is not an option. So the comparison has to be with the UK that we’d have by 2023 if we’d voted to Remain, after 7 years of probably-accelerated integration.

This can only ever be speculation of course, but it is pretty hard to avoid the prospect that we would now be harnessed into a European defence arrangement of some sort that would be the Single European Army with only the name changed, and prominent Europhiles would now by walking around with their pants permanently on fire because they’re trying to get us to believe that joining the Euro will make us all richer.

You are right to be sceptical of the ability of our political class to do anything right, but the problem is that this applies even more so if we were in the EU and had those same people responsible for protecting what’s left of our democratic rights. It would be a worse situation than now no matter which way you cut it.

Tim C Taylor
Tim C Taylor
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I’m like Eleanor on this, and we’re far from alone. I could see many positive arguments for Brexit, but had no confidence in our ruling class to implement it competently so we could realise the benefits. Nothing has changed that view.

Paul Curtin
Paul Curtin
1 year ago
Reply to  Eleanor Barlow

Hmmmm. Was it 1.6 million euros in a suitcase of a EU vice president or 1.7? I can’t remember. Corruption on this scale neatly sidelined by the pro-EU press. It makes cash for questions look like amateur night

Charles Gordon
Charles Gordon
1 year ago
Reply to  Eleanor Barlow

Unfortunately, I’m utterly unconvinced that any EU politicians/administrators are any mor competent than our own sorry crop, and they’re almost certainly more corrupt into the bargain

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Eleanor Barlow

That seems not to make sense. You either think the country is better in the EU or out, but you surely wouldn’t make the wrong choice out of a fear the right choice might be executed badly?

Paul Curtin
Paul Curtin
1 year ago
Reply to  Eleanor Barlow

Hmmmm. Was it 1.6 million euros in a suitcase of a EU vice president or 1.7? I can’t remember. Corruption on this scale neatly sidelined by the pro-EU press. It makes cash for questions look like amateur night

Patrick Heren
Patrick Heren
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

I remember 30 years ago a senior civil servant friend who had just been posted to some Euro-quango remarking: “Well, after all, one doesn’t want to spend all one’s time in local government.”

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

That’s only part if the story. They are nothing loth to simply stroll away whistling, provided only that their privileges and sinecures are preserved. That’s the problem; they were coming to the uncomfortable realisation that they are simply not good enough to make it in the USA and excluded from the inner elites of Europe.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

I quite agree. Very well put.

Eleanor Barlow
Eleanor Barlow
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

The reason I voted Remain in the 2016 referendum is not because I hold any sentimental views about the EU, but because I didn’t trust any of the current generation of politicians to be able to successfully deliver a project as massive and complex as Brexit. So it seemed to me less disruptive to stay put. It now seems that my scepticism about the abilities of our politicians was not misplaced.

Patrick Heren
Patrick Heren
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

I remember 30 years ago a senior civil servant friend who had just been posted to some Euro-quango remarking: “Well, after all, one doesn’t want to spend all one’s time in local government.”

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago

After 50 years of divesting itself of any real power, shovelling ever-greater chunks of responsibility through the Channel Tunnel to Brussels, Westminster has been handed the task of actually governing a country again. Our own country. And, from top to bottom, Westminster is trying to dodge the job, for which it knows itself to be now totally unqualified.
The distractions of a pandemic and a global energy crisis have obscured the fact for a while, but the truth is that, if we want a competent government for Britain (a fortiori for its constituent countries) we need to advertise the post. Because there’s little sign that the current crop in Parliament or the Civil Service is qualified to do it.

Regan Best
Regan Best
1 year ago

“Look longingly at the better opportunities to be found in California”? LMAO. People and businesses are leaving CA for states like TX.

nigel roberts
nigel roberts
1 year ago
Reply to  Regan Best

But the author’s comment is correct in the sense that these people have bought into the mystique of California, which is in fact bow-locks — as the reality that you cite amply illustrates.

L Walker
L Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  nigel roberts

Yeah, California will be disappointing for sure.

L Walker
L Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  nigel roberts

Yeah, California will be disappointing for sure.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  Regan Best

Yes, California is a hot mess and for some years now big cities in Cali (and the Pacific NW) have looked third world.

Jonathan Nash
Jonathan Nash
1 year ago

I saw some footage ofastreet in San Francisco on YouTube yesterday: covered in drug paraphernalia (including needles), tents, random clothing and insensate bodies who may or may not have been breathing. Shocking.

Bo Harrison
Bo Harrison
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

That’s what passes for “compassion” in the Bay Area and other left coast cities unfortunately; Seattle and San Francisco now have the highest property crime rates in the entire country.

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

It’s not all like that (basically just the Tenderloin area) but you’ll find this in all the west coast cities in the US and pretty much every city in Canada. Fentanyl and mental illness.

Bo Harrison
Bo Harrison
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

That’s what passes for “compassion” in the Bay Area and other left coast cities unfortunately; Seattle and San Francisco now have the highest property crime rates in the entire country.

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

It’s not all like that (basically just the Tenderloin area) but you’ll find this in all the west coast cities in the US and pretty much every city in Canada. Fentanyl and mental illness.

Jonathan Nash
Jonathan Nash
1 year ago

I saw some footage ofastreet in San Francisco on YouTube yesterday: covered in drug paraphernalia (including needles), tents, random clothing and insensate bodies who may or may not have been breathing. Shocking.

Bo Harrison
Bo Harrison
1 year ago
Reply to  Regan Best

I think that was a swipe at erstwhile royals?

L Walker
L Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  Bo Harrison

That’s how I took it, but the comments are right on.

JP Martin
JP Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Bo Harrison

Or Clegg and Sunak, yes.

L Walker
L Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  Bo Harrison

That’s how I took it, but the comments are right on.

JP Martin
JP Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Bo Harrison

Or Clegg and Sunak, yes.

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Regan Best

Perhaps they are looking from the perspective of “soon to be homeless” – we can but hope eh?.

Last edited 1 year ago by mike otter
nigel roberts
nigel roberts
1 year ago
Reply to  Regan Best

But the author’s comment is correct in the sense that these people have bought into the mystique of California, which is in fact bow-locks — as the reality that you cite amply illustrates.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  Regan Best

Yes, California is a hot mess and for some years now big cities in Cali (and the Pacific NW) have looked third world.

Bo Harrison
Bo Harrison
1 year ago
Reply to  Regan Best

I think that was a swipe at erstwhile royals?

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Regan Best

Perhaps they are looking from the perspective of “soon to be homeless” – we can but hope eh?.

Last edited 1 year ago by mike otter
Regan Best
Regan Best
1 year ago

“Look longingly at the better opportunities to be found in California”? LMAO. People and businesses are leaving CA for states like TX.

Andy Iddon
Andy Iddon
1 year ago

The mass immigration has made all of this a moot point, unfortunately. The Nation is already abolished, thie article is nostalgia, however valid its story – a history lesson.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andy Iddon
Jonas Moze
Jonas Moze
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

Immigrants can be ferociously patriotic – if they are led by patriots, and if what the new homeland gives them is success and pride. Like USA, the elites teach the immigrants that they are in a nation of shameful oppressors……That is the most heinous thing the UK and USA are doing to their selves, and the most destructive. All, immigrant and native, lose.

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

They can also be pretty racist – over the past 50 years, you often find the racist ones to be the ones who came 20 years ago and they now blame the problems of the UK onto ‘the immigrants’!!
It’s a fine example of showing that those of darker skin colours are capable of irrational discrimination against other societal groupings.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

You are ignoring the possibility that they may have a point

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

You are ignoring the possibility that they may have a point

Andy Iddon
Andy Iddon
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Firstly, the USA and UK are massively different, with the UK having been a homogenous nation state and cohesive culture for a millenium, and yes agreed, negative messaging about the host, but the real issues are identity for the individuals involved. Heritage is real, pledgi g allegiance to the flag is a construct. There was no requirement to allow immigration.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andy Iddon
mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

I wonder if the lefty anti-British and ABB (Anyone but Branson Britain) attitudes are simply youthful rebellion or resentement and envy at a society that doesn’t reward their virtue signals. So the issue is a psychological one rather than political. Similar to the Hippies supporting the Viet Cong in USA and the toy-town Trots in Thatcher era supporting Brezhnev, the IRA or PLO?

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

I wonder if the lefty anti-British and ABB (Anyone but Branson Britain) attitudes are simply youthful rebellion or resentement and envy at a society that doesn’t reward their virtue signals. So the issue is a psychological one rather than political. Similar to the Hippies supporting the Viet Cong in USA and the toy-town Trots in Thatcher era supporting Brezhnev, the IRA or PLO?

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

They ARE patriotic; they will lay down their lives for the Umma, in the expectation of their pick of the Virgins of Rotherham et .

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  ben arnulfssen

Tempting to be flippant and ask: “Ever been to Rotherham?” Seriously i know a lot of 60s/70s immigrants from Pakistan and their kids/grandkids.All complain they came 5000 miles to get away from stone age religious practices and now the nutcases are following them! They are of course aware the tribal fruitloops are being brought in by leftists, and also aware that these imports simply do not have the skills to function in our economy. Sadly the few educated imports from places like Lahore & Port Qasim, often ex military, oil or merchant marine workers, are lumped in with and therefore discriminated against along with the herdsmen and (poppy) share croppers.

odd taff
odd taff
1 year ago
Reply to  mike otter

My Dad came here in 1948 as a seventeen year old. I innocently asked him when I was a teenager why he had no Indian friends he more or less echoed your phrase “ I came here to get away from those nutters”.

odd taff
odd taff
1 year ago
Reply to  mike otter

My Dad came here in 1948 as a seventeen year old. I innocently asked him when I was a teenager why he had no Indian friends he more or less echoed your phrase “ I came here to get away from those nutters”.

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  ben arnulfssen

Tempting to be flippant and ask: “Ever been to Rotherham?” Seriously i know a lot of 60s/70s immigrants from Pakistan and their kids/grandkids.All complain they came 5000 miles to get away from stone age religious practices and now the nutcases are following them! They are of course aware the tribal fruitloops are being brought in by leftists, and also aware that these imports simply do not have the skills to function in our economy. Sadly the few educated imports from places like Lahore & Port Qasim, often ex military, oil or merchant marine workers, are lumped in with and therefore discriminated against along with the herdsmen and (poppy) share croppers.

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Yes I’m in Canada at the moment and it’s expected that everyone constantly grovel and self flagellate for being “settlers”. If you’re white you get to use the even more contemptuous term “white settler.”
People love it, lap it up like coprophiles clinging to the toilet bowl.
None of this actually helps the tiny % of the population who are indigenous.

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

They can also be pretty racist – over the past 50 years, you often find the racist ones to be the ones who came 20 years ago and they now blame the problems of the UK onto ‘the immigrants’!!
It’s a fine example of showing that those of darker skin colours are capable of irrational discrimination against other societal groupings.

Andy Iddon
Andy Iddon
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Firstly, the USA and UK are massively different, with the UK having been a homogenous nation state and cohesive culture for a millenium, and yes agreed, negative messaging about the host, but the real issues are identity for the individuals involved. Heritage is real, pledgi g allegiance to the flag is a construct. There was no requirement to allow immigration.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andy Iddon
ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

They ARE patriotic; they will lay down their lives for the Umma, in the expectation of their pick of the Virgins of Rotherham et .

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Yes I’m in Canada at the moment and it’s expected that everyone constantly grovel and self flagellate for being “settlers”. If you’re white you get to use the even more contemptuous term “white settler.”
People love it, lap it up like coprophiles clinging to the toilet bowl.
None of this actually helps the tiny % of the population who are indigenous.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

I discovered a few years ago, to even mention the term ‘indigenous Brit’ was wrong-speak. I was quickly reprimanded and instructed there was no such thing as an indigenous Brit. It was made clear the topic is verboten. I later learnt the belief is commonplace. I do wonder who decided this was the case and when it was decided. Are we the only nation on earth without an indigenous population or are there others? Why is a discussion of the suggestion considered so dangerous?

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
L Walker
L Walker
1 year ago

The USA.

andrew.iddon
andrew.iddon
1 year ago

Agreed, definitely seen it and the immediate inference it’s racist and hateful to be british – but they’re pursuing a coercive grab of another’s birthright ( even if it is given away most probably for the purposes of the upper class winning their disgusting class war). don’t expect honesty from any of those folk, they don’t care for your best interests – its about diminishing the threat posed by democracy to the excessive wealth of the oligocracy and just plain appropriation of Britain by the migrant masses.

Last edited 1 year ago by andrew.iddon
ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago

Oh, that’s easy. It dates from the post-WW2 period, when the fabric of Empire was rapidly disintegrating and the self-described “intelligentsia” were buying into the principles of “open borders” and “the Great Replacement”.

If the British, and particularly the English were recognised as an “indigenous people” then the “Great Replacement” would be genocide

Since this cannot be, since the intrinsic virtue of the Great Replacement cannot be questioned, there CANNOT BE any such thing as the “indigenous English people” – and this thinking remains in force to this day

Last edited 1 year ago by ben arnulfssen
Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  ben arnulfssen

I guess an indigenous population is generally recognised to have the right to object to having their land controlled and governed by the non-indigenous. If there are no indigenous Brits then the white working class who object to mass immigration and rule by the EU are just a bunch of ignorant racists, and encouraging everyone to go to university regardless of academic ability for indoctrination ensures stability. Those who are indoctrinated at the top universities can then obtain jobs in which their role is to sneer at and denigrate non-believers. Think MSM in general and Cathy Newman in particular.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago
Reply to  ben arnulfssen

British history demonstrates how much the upper classes despise the people.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  ben arnulfssen

I guess an indigenous population is generally recognised to have the right to object to having their land controlled and governed by the non-indigenous. If there are no indigenous Brits then the white working class who object to mass immigration and rule by the EU are just a bunch of ignorant racists, and encouraging everyone to go to university regardless of academic ability for indoctrination ensures stability. Those who are indoctrinated at the top universities can then obtain jobs in which their role is to sneer at and denigrate non-believers. Think MSM in general and Cathy Newman in particular.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago
Reply to  ben arnulfssen

British history demonstrates how much the upper classes despise the people.

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago

Yes, incredible. Yet aside from the monarchy, the evidence for indigenous Britons is everywhere

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Dr. G Marzanna

I grew up in the country, an area which was very cut off. The furthest people travelled was about 11 miles to the seaside in the summer for a day out and 7 miles to a nearby town, but mostly they stayed close to home. It was very Cider with Rosie and Thomas Hardy. There was no industry. There was the docks and the farms. Men (and women) worked in the fields. Mothers went apple picking taking pre-school children with them. I loved exploring the orchards, especially early on foggy mornings, and looking for mushrooms. Babies were left in prams outside the shops whilst mothers went inside. There was no crime, just a woman who stole bicycles, she would ride them and then leave them somewhere else. It was known she wasn’t quite ‘all there’. If a bicycle went missing people just looked until it was found. The police told young people off. Children played in the streets. Mothers kept an eye on other mothers’ children. When my father bought my mother a bicycle, everyone in the road came out to watch her ride it. Pretty much everyone went to church. The church organised outings: A yearly trip to the seaside with a cream tea in a posh hotel and spending money for the funfair, a pilgrimage. There was a sense life had always been like this with a few interruptions, the war for one, and would continue to be so. The train lines were electrified and a major road built placing it within the commuter belt for the city. Within thirty or forty years the past had gone forever. A place most of the country never knew existed is now frequently mentioned by the M SM.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Dr. G Marzanna

I grew up in the country, an area which was very cut off. The furthest people travelled was about 11 miles to the seaside in the summer for a day out and 7 miles to a nearby town, but mostly they stayed close to home. It was very Cider with Rosie and Thomas Hardy. There was no industry. There was the docks and the farms. Men (and women) worked in the fields. Mothers went apple picking taking pre-school children with them. I loved exploring the orchards, especially early on foggy mornings, and looking for mushrooms. Babies were left in prams outside the shops whilst mothers went inside. There was no crime, just a woman who stole bicycles, she would ride them and then leave them somewhere else. It was known she wasn’t quite ‘all there’. If a bicycle went missing people just looked until it was found. The police told young people off. Children played in the streets. Mothers kept an eye on other mothers’ children. When my father bought my mother a bicycle, everyone in the road came out to watch her ride it. Pretty much everyone went to church. The church organised outings: A yearly trip to the seaside with a cream tea in a posh hotel and spending money for the funfair, a pilgrimage. There was a sense life had always been like this with a few interruptions, the war for one, and would continue to be so. The train lines were electrified and a major road built placing it within the commuter belt for the city. Within thirty or forty years the past had gone forever. A place most of the country never knew existed is now frequently mentioned by the M SM.

L Walker
L Walker
1 year ago

The USA.

andrew.iddon
andrew.iddon
1 year ago

Agreed, definitely seen it and the immediate inference it’s racist and hateful to be british – but they’re pursuing a coercive grab of another’s birthright ( even if it is given away most probably for the purposes of the upper class winning their disgusting class war). don’t expect honesty from any of those folk, they don’t care for your best interests – its about diminishing the threat posed by democracy to the excessive wealth of the oligocracy and just plain appropriation of Britain by the migrant masses.

Last edited 1 year ago by andrew.iddon
ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago

Oh, that’s easy. It dates from the post-WW2 period, when the fabric of Empire was rapidly disintegrating and the self-described “intelligentsia” were buying into the principles of “open borders” and “the Great Replacement”.

If the British, and particularly the English were recognised as an “indigenous people” then the “Great Replacement” would be genocide

Since this cannot be, since the intrinsic virtue of the Great Replacement cannot be questioned, there CANNOT BE any such thing as the “indigenous English people” – and this thinking remains in force to this day

Last edited 1 year ago by ben arnulfssen
Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago

Yes, incredible. Yet aside from the monarchy, the evidence for indigenous Britons is everywhere

Jonas Moze
Jonas Moze
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

Immigrants can be ferociously patriotic – if they are led by patriots, and if what the new homeland gives them is success and pride. Like USA, the elites teach the immigrants that they are in a nation of shameful oppressors……That is the most heinous thing the UK and USA are doing to their selves, and the most destructive. All, immigrant and native, lose.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

I discovered a few years ago, to even mention the term ‘indigenous Brit’ was wrong-speak. I was quickly reprimanded and instructed there was no such thing as an indigenous Brit. It was made clear the topic is verboten. I later learnt the belief is commonplace. I do wonder who decided this was the case and when it was decided. Are we the only nation on earth without an indigenous population or are there others? Why is a discussion of the suggestion considered so dangerous?

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Andy Iddon
Andy Iddon
1 year ago

The mass immigration has made all of this a moot point, unfortunately. The Nation is already abolished, thie article is nostalgia, however valid its story – a history lesson.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andy Iddon
Andrew Wise
Andrew Wise
1 year ago

The author’s obfuscation with flowery and obtuse language, not to mention invective renders the article unreadable.
I’m quite prepared to believe our political leaders are failing us – but I don’t buy what I understood of the rest of the article
And would those who are pro the EU please desist from telling me why I voted to leave – on that point I can say the author is categorically wrong.

Peter Gardner
Peter Gardner
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

It’s New Year’s Eve. I thought it was just me and the Champagne. One read though is enough. It is gobbledy gook. Better things to do and enjoy!

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

“They would not listen, they did not know how. Perhaps they’ll listen now” (Don McLean).
They’re still not listening (about why people voted for Brexit). I guess they just don’t know how. Perhaps doing research and listening simply isn’t required in journalism these days ?

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

Hear hear

Peter Gardner
Peter Gardner
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

It’s New Year’s Eve. I thought it was just me and the Champagne. One read though is enough. It is gobbledy gook. Better things to do and enjoy!

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

“They would not listen, they did not know how. Perhaps they’ll listen now” (Don McLean).
They’re still not listening (about why people voted for Brexit). I guess they just don’t know how. Perhaps doing research and listening simply isn’t required in journalism these days ?

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

Hear hear

Andrew Wise
Andrew Wise
1 year ago

The author’s obfuscation with flowery and obtuse language, not to mention invective renders the article unreadable.
I’m quite prepared to believe our political leaders are failing us – but I don’t buy what I understood of the rest of the article
And would those who are pro the EU please desist from telling me why I voted to leave – on that point I can say the author is categorically wrong.

Chris Stapleton
Chris Stapleton
1 year ago

“….a great inward turn“. No, a great outward looking. Nice try at slipping that one in, before more fully revealing yourself.
It was not the “ideology of global Britain [that] made the British governing class incapable of running a small northwest European archipelago“, as you insultingly put it. It was the lazy surrender of governance to the EU by the British political and cultural establishment and their post Brexit refusal to accept the will of the electorate and step up to the plate that is the problem.

Chris Stapleton
Chris Stapleton
1 year ago

“….a great inward turn“. No, a great outward looking. Nice try at slipping that one in, before more fully revealing yourself.
It was not the “ideology of global Britain [that] made the British governing class incapable of running a small northwest European archipelago“, as you insultingly put it. It was the lazy surrender of governance to the EU by the British political and cultural establishment and their post Brexit refusal to accept the will of the electorate and step up to the plate that is the problem.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

There’s almost too many false assumptions in this essay to know where to start. A couple have already been dealt with in other comments, so i’ll refer to just two.

First, the citing in evidence of our supposed plight of work by two peripheral writers, one from New Zealand, the other Welsh – with their subjective perspectives – gives the essay a sense of clutching at straws. Their viewpoints may have a limited validity in terms of their own audiences but are necessarily critical in a way which seeks to justify their own agendas.

Secondly, it’s typical of most of the articles i’ve read by Roussinos that he fails to grasp the underlying nature of the national character. He inverts our strengths, for instance our ability to absorb different influences from elsewhere, a process that’s been ongoing throughout recorded history and deems it a weakness; as an attempt to escape insularity by the inevitable trope: the “ruling classes”. It’s schoolboy stuff, as if the myriad waves of incomers to these islands only happened in order to assuage some globalist fetish, from even before we knew we lived on a globe.

I’ll leave it there, and wish the author a more mature outlook for 2023, despite his conviction that, to mangle a phrase: “things can only get worse”.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

“our ability to absorb different influences from elsewhere”
As an outsider, peripheral and subjective in my views (what else is there?), that is one thing I find the Brits resistant to, even when they live in other countries. And do you think 2023 will be better?

Last edited 1 year ago by Brett H
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Think longer term – much longer, which is the essence of my post.
2023? Pah!

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

“which is the essence of my post.”

No it’s not. The essence of your post is the “ many false assumptions in this essay”.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Due to the inability of its author to see beyond the end of his nose, as per my exposition of a different timescale. Do pay attention.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Due to the inability of its author to see beyond the end of his nose, as per my exposition of a different timescale. Do pay attention.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

“which is the essence of my post.”

No it’s not. The essence of your post is the “ many false assumptions in this essay”.

Douglas H
Douglas H
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Brits are constantly borrowing from other cultures, it’s almost a national obsession. Notably American culture for all classes, European for the self declared elite.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Douglas H

In my experience most of the European “self declared elites” seem to spend most of their time aping the British. Spaniels, Labradors, Barbour Jackets, Brogues, Twinset & Pearls, and so forth. Then the faux attendance at our ‘country pursuits’ and even our renowned’ blood sports’. At their most sycophantic they even send their revolting offspring to schools such as Eton to be ‘finished off’.

However given the paucity and frightfulness on their own ‘culture’, who can really blame them?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Douglas H

In my experience most of the European “self declared elites” seem to spend most of their time aping the British. Spaniels, Labradors, Barbour Jackets, Brogues, Twinset & Pearls, and so forth. Then the faux attendance at our ‘country pursuits’ and even our renowned’ blood sports’. At their most sycophantic they even send their revolting offspring to schools such as Eton to be ‘finished off’.

However given the paucity and frightfulness on their own ‘culture’, who can really blame them?

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Actually I think that you are mistaken here. Britain has absorbed, in approximate date order, major and sometimes overwhelming influxes from: Celts, Romans; Anglo-Saxons, Normans, French (mostly Huguenots), Eastern European Jews, assorted flotsam from the end of WWII, West Indians, East African Asians, Indian Sub-Continent, China. It takes time but they have all been absorbed.

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Yes, but at the same time it has tended to keep wages down (and land and house prices higher) in order to favour the employer and landowning classes. Consequently, technological innovation is discouraged and income inequality aggravated.

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Absorbed as in, accepted , but England at least is still clearly a country with a recognizable Celtic-Roman-Norse identity. All the others are in the end minorities, either visibly so or self identified.
But this core identity, which is strongly though inchoately felt, is ignored and openly despised by England’s “ruling class”.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

“ It takes time but they have all been absorbed.”
Well then everything should be fine. But it doesn’t sound like it.

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Yes, but at the same time it has tended to keep wages down (and land and house prices higher) in order to favour the employer and landowning classes. Consequently, technological innovation is discouraged and income inequality aggravated.

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Absorbed as in, accepted , but England at least is still clearly a country with a recognizable Celtic-Roman-Norse identity. All the others are in the end minorities, either visibly so or self identified.
But this core identity, which is strongly though inchoately felt, is ignored and openly despised by England’s “ruling class”.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

“ It takes time but they have all been absorbed.”
Well then everything should be fine. But it doesn’t sound like it.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Think longer term – much longer, which is the essence of my post.
2023? Pah!

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Douglas H
Douglas H
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Brits are constantly borrowing from other cultures, it’s almost a national obsession. Notably American culture for all classes, European for the self declared elite.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Actually I think that you are mistaken here. Britain has absorbed, in approximate date order, major and sometimes overwhelming influxes from: Celts, Romans; Anglo-Saxons, Normans, French (mostly Huguenots), Eastern European Jews, assorted flotsam from the end of WWII, West Indians, East African Asians, Indian Sub-Continent, China. It takes time but they have all been absorbed.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

“he fails to grasp the underlying nature of the national character”
Is that really surprising ? Mr Roussinos is a Greek*with all that that entails. A brief stint at Durham and Oxford cannot change that however hard ones tries.

(* Turks pretending to be Italians as some might say.)

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

‘Peripheral’ as in – not English?
O wad some power the giftie gie us
to see oursels as others see us
But then, Burns was a Scot, and presumably just as ‘peripheral’ and irrelevant?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Precisely.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Peripheral – as in intellectual heft, despite the author’s attempts to big them up. Our British Isles are also peripheral, but it’s not just about geography.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Precisely.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Peripheral – as in intellectual heft, despite the author’s attempts to big them up. Our British Isles are also peripheral, but it’s not just about geography.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Well said. Roussinos is a narrow nationalist who evidently wants Wales (and Scotland) to rejoin the EU which would involve EU-imposed tariffs and other border controls with their biggest trading partner by far. Not to mention scrapping the pound for the crazy euro.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

“our ability to absorb different influences from elsewhere”
As an outsider, peripheral and subjective in my views (what else is there?), that is one thing I find the Brits resistant to, even when they live in other countries. And do you think 2023 will be better?

Last edited 1 year ago by Brett H
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

“he fails to grasp the underlying nature of the national character”
Is that really surprising ? Mr Roussinos is a Greek*with all that that entails. A brief stint at Durham and Oxford cannot change that however hard ones tries.

(* Turks pretending to be Italians as some might say.)

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

‘Peripheral’ as in – not English?
O wad some power the giftie gie us
to see oursels as others see us
But then, Burns was a Scot, and presumably just as ‘peripheral’ and irrelevant?

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Well said. Roussinos is a narrow nationalist who evidently wants Wales (and Scotland) to rejoin the EU which would involve EU-imposed tariffs and other border controls with their biggest trading partner by far. Not to mention scrapping the pound for the crazy euro.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

There’s almost too many false assumptions in this essay to know where to start. A couple have already been dealt with in other comments, so i’ll refer to just two.

First, the citing in evidence of our supposed plight of work by two peripheral writers, one from New Zealand, the other Welsh – with their subjective perspectives – gives the essay a sense of clutching at straws. Their viewpoints may have a limited validity in terms of their own audiences but are necessarily critical in a way which seeks to justify their own agendas.

Secondly, it’s typical of most of the articles i’ve read by Roussinos that he fails to grasp the underlying nature of the national character. He inverts our strengths, for instance our ability to absorb different influences from elsewhere, a process that’s been ongoing throughout recorded history and deems it a weakness; as an attempt to escape insularity by the inevitable trope: the “ruling classes”. It’s schoolboy stuff, as if the myriad waves of incomers to these islands only happened in order to assuage some globalist fetish, from even before we knew we lived on a globe.

I’ll leave it there, and wish the author a more mature outlook for 2023, despite his conviction that, to mangle a phrase: “things can only get worse”.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago

Yet another Brexit analysis which completely ignores the extensive research into why people voted Brexit.

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Bellisarius

I rather agree. Why is it that so many of the ‘commenting class’ (as the author puts it) are so insistently fixated on projecting onto the British psyche some sort of nostalgia for Empire and longing for a place on the world stage?

And why are these non-existent obsessions forever foisted on Brexit voters?

Nobody I know ever even mentions ‘Empire’ or ‘global stage’.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

Coming from a small European country the British attitude to going it alone seems quite peculiar. One of the Boris’ arguments was that ‘Of course they will give us a good deal afterwards – they need us more than we need them’. In Denmark or The Netherlands everybody would have seen that was rubbish. In Britain people bought it. Maybe because the Brits still see being on top as their natural place in the world?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

So many things you’ve missed there …
Britain is not a “small European country” – the population is expected to exceed that of Germany in a few decades.
You cannot expect an historically maritime country (the UK) to have similar instincts, culture, beliefs and sense of identity as smaller continental countries (granted, the Netherlands is probably the closest match to the UK).
Britain’s history and business and legal culture are quite separate from most continental European countries.
Britain has a history of successfully “going it alone” to draw on.
There was a sense that the EU was moving in a direction most people didn’t want to go in. Even if the status quo might have been tolerated, the future drift (and the inability to prevent this) was not.
I suggest most people who voted to leave the EU didn’t do so because they thought they would get a “good deal”. I think it was far more about identity and a national sense of purpose and direction than short term concerns about money.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

You are not the only historically maritime country with a separate history and sense of identity. Apart from the Netherlands there is Denmark, for instance. But we totally agree that Britain has a history of successfully going it alone, that surely influenced the decision. I am just pointing out that back when you were succesfully going it alone you were the world’s dominant manufacturing power, with a globe-spanning empire and the Royal and merchant navy dominating the world’s seas. I suspect that you are assuming that you will do as well in the 21st century as you did in the 19th, without really considering how much your situation has changed since then.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

For me it was about democracy.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

You are not the only historically maritime country with a separate history and sense of identity. Apart from the Netherlands there is Denmark, for instance. But we totally agree that Britain has a history of successfully going it alone, that surely influenced the decision. I am just pointing out that back when you were succesfully going it alone you were the world’s dominant manufacturing power, with a globe-spanning empire and the Royal and merchant navy dominating the world’s seas. I suspect that you are assuming that you will do as well in the 21st century as you did in the 19th, without really considering how much your situation has changed since then.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

For me it was about democracy.

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

No, It’s just that we are historically a more outward-looking nation than is the EU. And we abandoned oppressive imperialism years before some other European countries did, and our foreign aid budget has usually been far more generous than theirs. Unfortunately our foreign aid also went to undeserving EU farmers via the corrupt CAP while EU tariffs harmed more deserving, poorer CW farmers.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

This is nonsense. The people who predicted that the EU would give us a good deal understandably believed that our own side would actually use the EU27’s colossal trade surplus with the UK to the UK’s advantage – not a difficult feat given that the EU is a mercantilist bloc. That we did not was due to the refusal of the UK negotiators to actually use it, as part of their plan to sabotage the process of leaving.

And since no other EU nation had that colossal trade imbalance, they would never have made the same prediction about their own chances of negotiating with Brussels, should they have tried.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Right. So you are saying that Brexit was a failure because Theresa May, Lord Frost, Boris Johnson deliberately sabotaged the project – presumably because they actually wanted Britain to lose the advantages of membership and gain nothing in return? Do you actually believe that? I shall continue to believe that the huge leverage that you claim Britain had simply was not there. The EU was never going to give Britain access on British terms, no matter how much prosecco and how many BMWs you used to buy.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

I am not saying Brexit “was” or even is a failure, for starters, so lets get that out of the way. It isn’t finished yet and will not be for many years.

And the people you name here do rather expose your mental confusion on the issue: Theresa May was in charge for the first two years while David Frost and Boris Johnson were not. The colossal limitations of the deal we have now were almost completely set in stone during those two years and it was only the refusal of Parliament to enact the Withdrawal Agreement three times in a row that led to Theresa May’s resignation, Boris Johnson’s leadership victory, and the subsequent tweaks to the draft WA which avoided Brexit being turned into an abject humiliation. It is important to note that Brussels did in fact lose a considerable amount of the advantage it sought here, as a result of its own arrogant overreach.

That the trade surplus advantage you say never existed, too, is close to idiotic: it is still there right now in the trade figures because it was the primary objective of the WA! My point is that during the two years in which the cretinous Theresa May refused to permit any real negotiation to be mounted against Brussels, that advantage was baked in to the draft agreement that Boris was forced to work with from June 2019.

Your understanding of the course of events is simply not up to scratch.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

The trade surplus is there. It is the idea that it could be leveraged into market access on British terms that was an illusion.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Of course it could have been leveraged. It simply wasn’t, because the dominant ideology amongst those whose job it was to negotiate a deal for the UK was pro-EU and anti-independence, so they decided instead to assist Brussels in getting the best deal for the EU.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Sorry, but the idea that Theresa May deliberately betrayed her country and governed to sell out British interests to the EU simply does not fly. At most we are talking about a difference of strategy.

True, May did not try the ‘madman strategy’, as Johnson talked about. Refuse to make concessions, make maximum demands, be outrageous and make everybody furious, and move right towards an all-out trade war. Then when everybody is staring into the abyss stop at the brink and expect to be bought off with concessions. Personally I doubt this would have worked, though. Psychologically, all the EU negotiators would have had a strong desire to punish Britain rather than reward her. Rationally, they would have known that Britain would suffer more under a trade war than they would. Also, the EU is a very rule-bound organisation, and we (even Johnson) are talking about a long-term close trading relationship – the question is just on whose terms. You cannot make long-term deals with a reckless and irrational partner, because you cannot rely on any promises being kept. The rational choice for the EU would therefore be *not* to make a humiliating climb-down and cave in to British demands, but to prepare to weather the storm, maybe stop collaborating on keeping migrants out of the channel, and wait till Britain blinked first.

Are you really sure you would have got a better deal that way?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Sorry, but the idea that Theresa May deliberately betrayed her country and governed to sell out British interests to the EU simply does not fly. At most we are talking about a difference of strategy.

True, May did not try the ‘madman strategy’, as Johnson talked about. Refuse to make concessions, make maximum demands, be outrageous and make everybody furious, and move right towards an all-out trade war. Then when everybody is staring into the abyss stop at the brink and expect to be bought off with concessions. Personally I doubt this would have worked, though. Psychologically, all the EU negotiators would have had a strong desire to punish Britain rather than reward her. Rationally, they would have known that Britain would suffer more under a trade war than they would. Also, the EU is a very rule-bound organisation, and we (even Johnson) are talking about a long-term close trading relationship – the question is just on whose terms. You cannot make long-term deals with a reckless and irrational partner, because you cannot rely on any promises being kept. The rational choice for the EU would therefore be *not* to make a humiliating climb-down and cave in to British demands, but to prepare to weather the storm, maybe stop collaborating on keeping migrants out of the channel, and wait till Britain blinked first.

Are you really sure you would have got a better deal that way?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Of course it could have been leveraged. It simply wasn’t, because the dominant ideology amongst those whose job it was to negotiate a deal for the UK was pro-EU and anti-independence, so they decided instead to assist Brussels in getting the best deal for the EU.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

The trade surplus is there. It is the idea that it could be leveraged into market access on British terms that was an illusion.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

I am not saying Brexit “was” or even is a failure, for starters, so lets get that out of the way. It isn’t finished yet and will not be for many years.

And the people you name here do rather expose your mental confusion on the issue: Theresa May was in charge for the first two years while David Frost and Boris Johnson were not. The colossal limitations of the deal we have now were almost completely set in stone during those two years and it was only the refusal of Parliament to enact the Withdrawal Agreement three times in a row that led to Theresa May’s resignation, Boris Johnson’s leadership victory, and the subsequent tweaks to the draft WA which avoided Brexit being turned into an abject humiliation. It is important to note that Brussels did in fact lose a considerable amount of the advantage it sought here, as a result of its own arrogant overreach.

That the trade surplus advantage you say never existed, too, is close to idiotic: it is still there right now in the trade figures because it was the primary objective of the WA! My point is that during the two years in which the cretinous Theresa May refused to permit any real negotiation to be mounted against Brussels, that advantage was baked in to the draft agreement that Boris was forced to work with from June 2019.

Your understanding of the course of events is simply not up to scratch.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Right. So you are saying that Brexit was a failure because Theresa May, Lord Frost, Boris Johnson deliberately sabotaged the project – presumably because they actually wanted Britain to lose the advantages of membership and gain nothing in return? Do you actually believe that? I shall continue to believe that the huge leverage that you claim Britain had simply was not there. The EU was never going to give Britain access on British terms, no matter how much prosecco and how many BMWs you used to buy.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

So many things you’ve missed there …
Britain is not a “small European country” – the population is expected to exceed that of Germany in a few decades.
You cannot expect an historically maritime country (the UK) to have similar instincts, culture, beliefs and sense of identity as smaller continental countries (granted, the Netherlands is probably the closest match to the UK).
Britain’s history and business and legal culture are quite separate from most continental European countries.
Britain has a history of successfully “going it alone” to draw on.
There was a sense that the EU was moving in a direction most people didn’t want to go in. Even if the status quo might have been tolerated, the future drift (and the inability to prevent this) was not.
I suggest most people who voted to leave the EU didn’t do so because they thought they would get a “good deal”. I think it was far more about identity and a national sense of purpose and direction than short term concerns about money.

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

No, It’s just that we are historically a more outward-looking nation than is the EU. And we abandoned oppressive imperialism years before some other European countries did, and our foreign aid budget has usually been far more generous than theirs. Unfortunately our foreign aid also went to undeserving EU farmers via the corrupt CAP while EU tariffs harmed more deserving, poorer CW farmers.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

This is nonsense. The people who predicted that the EU would give us a good deal understandably believed that our own side would actually use the EU27’s colossal trade surplus with the UK to the UK’s advantage – not a difficult feat given that the EU is a mercantilist bloc. That we did not was due to the refusal of the UK negotiators to actually use it, as part of their plan to sabotage the process of leaving.

And since no other EU nation had that colossal trade imbalance, they would never have made the same prediction about their own chances of negotiating with Brussels, should they have tried.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

THIS HAS BEEN CENSORED AND IS UNSUITABLE FOR THOSE OF A NERVOUS DISPOSITION.

As someone who remembers the Empire I couldn’t agree more. In fact if you need a ‘lightbulb’ moment when it ended it was 0600hrs the 24th May (Empire Day) 1941, when H.M.S.Hood, the pride of the Royal Navy was sunk in the Denmark Strait with the loss of 1415 men out of a crew of 1418.
As for strutting the World Stage or even worse “punching above our weight”, pathetic Foreign Office drivel that has no relevance since at least 1956* if not earlier.

(*Suez.)

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

I attempted a complimentary reply but the censor vetoed it!

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

“Why is it that so many of the ‘commenting class’ (as the author puts it) are so insistently fixated on projecting onto the British psyche some sort of nostalgia for Empire”
Because there’s nothing else. 

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

Coming from a small European country the British attitude to going it alone seems quite peculiar. One of the Boris’ arguments was that ‘Of course they will give us a good deal afterwards – they need us more than we need them’. In Denmark or The Netherlands everybody would have seen that was rubbish. In Britain people bought it. Maybe because the Brits still see being on top as their natural place in the world?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

THIS HAS BEEN CENSORED AND IS UNSUITABLE FOR THOSE OF A NERVOUS DISPOSITION.

As someone who remembers the Empire I couldn’t agree more. In fact if you need a ‘lightbulb’ moment when it ended it was 0600hrs the 24th May (Empire Day) 1941, when H.M.S.Hood, the pride of the Royal Navy was sunk in the Denmark Strait with the loss of 1415 men out of a crew of 1418.
As for strutting the World Stage or even worse “punching above our weight”, pathetic Foreign Office drivel that has no relevance since at least 1956* if not earlier.

(*Suez.)

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

I attempted a complimentary reply but the censor vetoed it!

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

“Why is it that so many of the ‘commenting class’ (as the author puts it) are so insistently fixated on projecting onto the British psyche some sort of nostalgia for Empire”
Because there’s nothing else. 

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Bellisarius

I rather agree. Why is it that so many of the ‘commenting class’ (as the author puts it) are so insistently fixated on projecting onto the British psyche some sort of nostalgia for Empire and longing for a place on the world stage?

And why are these non-existent obsessions forever foisted on Brexit voters?

Nobody I know ever even mentions ‘Empire’ or ‘global stage’.

Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago

Yet another Brexit analysis which completely ignores the extensive research into why people voted Brexit.

Richard Abbot
Richard Abbot
1 year ago

All by design. Never forget that the EU is fundamentally an elitist, utopian project.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Abbot

An attempt to rebuild the long defunct Holy Roman Empire or even the longed for Fourth Reich?

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Abbot

Utopia? But I thought it was an evil empire, set up specifically to destroy Britain by flooding it with 70 million Turkish immigrants? That’s what Nigel said …

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Abbot

An attempt to rebuild the long defunct Holy Roman Empire or even the longed for Fourth Reich?

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Abbot

Utopia? But I thought it was an evil empire, set up specifically to destroy Britain by flooding it with 70 million Turkish immigrants? That’s what Nigel said …

Richard Abbot
Richard Abbot
1 year ago

All by design. Never forget that the EU is fundamentally an elitist, utopian project.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

“..why Britain, more or less uniquely in Europe, possesses a markedly anti-national commenting class (intelligentsia is not quite the right word), whose European pretensions, like the continental affectations of a Hyacinth Bucket, are simply those of the provincial petit bourgeois, repelled by the drab simplicities of home.”
An excellent analysis of the commenting class but also true of those that seek status in their expressions of contempt for those that voted Brexit.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

“..why Britain, more or less uniquely in Europe, possesses a markedly anti-national commenting class (intelligentsia is not quite the right word), whose European pretensions, like the continental affectations of a Hyacinth Bucket, are simply those of the provincial petit bourgeois, repelled by the drab simplicities of home.”
An excellent analysis of the commenting class but also true of those that seek status in their expressions of contempt for those that voted Brexit.

Jon Hawksley
Jon Hawksley
1 year ago

The author focusses on “the British governing class” as though it is something tangible. As far as I can tell Victorian Britain had a very well educated upper middle class that acted cohesively in managing the country, businesses and institutions; with political tensions focussed on the fight between retaining the benefits of birth versus improving the lot of the poor. The Victorian ethos carried through, in those born into it and their children, to the 1950’s until it died out to be replaced by the rise of the individual as a free spirit in the 60’s. A well-educated Victorian lived in a far simpler world and could master much more of it. There was less to learn and fewer demands on his time so he had more time to devote to it. Generations of political stability gave a self-confidence. They did indeed form “the British governing class”. I saw it first hand, at the very end of it. in a speech Harold Macmillan gave at a dinner in Oxford. Since then it has become extinct, no doubt in part because it led to a smugness and arrogance that was never going to be accepted by those who found opportunities in the freedom of the individual.
We live in uncertain times because nothing has evolved to replace it and as the complexities increase our ability to master anything as individuals decreases. We ought to be able to organise a collection of individuals to act cohesively and therefore better than any of the individuals in it but it rarely happens. I generally find individuals brighter and more knowledgeable than the organisations they are part of.
Do we need a brilliant individual to lead us out of this or do we need a way of getting brilliance out of a team of individuals?

Last edited 1 year ago by Jon Hawksley
Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon Hawksley

You need a brilliant individual. But you won’t like it.

Last edited 1 year ago by Brett H
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon Hawksley

Excellent.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon Hawksley

But we’re still governed almost exclusively by Oxford graduates. They run the media, the Civil Service, NGOs, NHS – pretty well everything. And they still do it badly.

Jon Hawksley
Jon Hawksley
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I read PPE at Oxford, it was 50 years ago but does not seem to have changed much. At their best the tutorials were invaluable in helping me to learn how to think in the sense of exploring ideas but I learnt next to nothing about the real world. I learnt far more about that from working in the US, where you are rewarded for sticking your neck out, as opposed to the UK where most people keep their head below the parapet.
The economics at Oxford addressed the propensities of participants in an economy but it encouraged the view you could pull levers without addressing the role of sentiment, which changes what happens when you do pull the levers. It did not teach a feel for, or any fluency, in numbers.
Anecdotal evidence I have heard suggests Boris Johnson learnt he could wing it and Liz Truss thought she knew it all. However the cohort you refer to I suspect are capable of thinking but lack the wider experience needed and/or the ability to stick their head above the parapet. There is something in the perpetuated attitudes in the institutions that prevents them gaining the experience and confidence that is needed.
I agree with Brett H that I would not like a “brilliant leader”, the best I can think of is to find a way to throw those that have learnt to think into the deep end to sink or, if they gain the experience and confidence, to swim, in the way our forbears were when they, often very young and inexperienced, ran the empire over a hundred years ago.

Jon Hawksley
Jon Hawksley
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I read PPE at Oxford, it was 50 years ago but does not seem to have changed much. At their best the tutorials were invaluable in helping me to learn how to think in the sense of exploring ideas but I learnt next to nothing about the real world. I learnt far more about that from working in the US, where you are rewarded for sticking your neck out, as opposed to the UK where most people keep their head below the parapet.
The economics at Oxford addressed the propensities of participants in an economy but it encouraged the view you could pull levers without addressing the role of sentiment, which changes what happens when you do pull the levers. It did not teach a feel for, or any fluency, in numbers.
Anecdotal evidence I have heard suggests Boris Johnson learnt he could wing it and Liz Truss thought she knew it all. However the cohort you refer to I suspect are capable of thinking but lack the wider experience needed and/or the ability to stick their head above the parapet. There is something in the perpetuated attitudes in the institutions that prevents them gaining the experience and confidence that is needed.
I agree with Brett H that I would not like a “brilliant leader”, the best I can think of is to find a way to throw those that have learnt to think into the deep end to sink or, if they gain the experience and confidence, to swim, in the way our forbears were when they, often very young and inexperienced, ran the empire over a hundred years ago.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon Hawksley

You need a brilliant individual. But you won’t like it.

Last edited 1 year ago by Brett H
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon Hawksley

Excellent.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon Hawksley

But we’re still governed almost exclusively by Oxford graduates. They run the media, the Civil Service, NGOs, NHS – pretty well everything. And they still do it badly.

Jon Hawksley
Jon Hawksley
1 year ago

The author focusses on “the British governing class” as though it is something tangible. As far as I can tell Victorian Britain had a very well educated upper middle class that acted cohesively in managing the country, businesses and institutions; with political tensions focussed on the fight between retaining the benefits of birth versus improving the lot of the poor. The Victorian ethos carried through, in those born into it and their children, to the 1950’s until it died out to be replaced by the rise of the individual as a free spirit in the 60’s. A well-educated Victorian lived in a far simpler world and could master much more of it. There was less to learn and fewer demands on his time so he had more time to devote to it. Generations of political stability gave a self-confidence. They did indeed form “the British governing class”. I saw it first hand, at the very end of it. in a speech Harold Macmillan gave at a dinner in Oxford. Since then it has become extinct, no doubt in part because it led to a smugness and arrogance that was never going to be accepted by those who found opportunities in the freedom of the individual.
We live in uncertain times because nothing has evolved to replace it and as the complexities increase our ability to master anything as individuals decreases. We ought to be able to organise a collection of individuals to act cohesively and therefore better than any of the individuals in it but it rarely happens. I generally find individuals brighter and more knowledgeable than the organisations they are part of.
Do we need a brilliant individual to lead us out of this or do we need a way of getting brilliance out of a team of individuals?

Last edited 1 year ago by Jon Hawksley
Adam Bacon
Adam Bacon
1 year ago

Britain has very little economic/military sway in the modern world, but still has significant soft cultural influence. The royal family, the Premier League and the English language itself come to mind, along with lesser but not insignificant phenomena such as the Shakespeare and the Beatles.

Also, to be fair, a belief in global free trade doesn’t completely contradict an objection to the overriding influence of the monopolistic corporate elites, since the latter are not really engaging in free trade at all.

Adam Bacon
Adam Bacon
1 year ago

Britain has very little economic/military sway in the modern world, but still has significant soft cultural influence. The royal family, the Premier League and the English language itself come to mind, along with lesser but not insignificant phenomena such as the Shakespeare and the Beatles.

Also, to be fair, a belief in global free trade doesn’t completely contradict an objection to the overriding influence of the monopolistic corporate elites, since the latter are not really engaging in free trade at all.

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago

This article seems to prove its own point by omission – that the British, and particularly the English never cared much about the Empire except as an emigration destination – to which end India and Pakistan meant nothing to them, nor the Far East. The White Dominions were the Empire, in their eyes and they would just as lief emigrate to the USA.

Europe, that traditionsl and very recent enemy – from Agincourt to Arnhem, Malpaquet to Normandy, Badajoz to Berlin – meant nothing in that vein. They did not speak any of the mosaic of languages, their educational and trades certifications meant nothing there. Rates of pay were not attractive, taxation excessive and benefits (including social housing) inaccessible.

Significantly, their political leaders chose to make no attempt to rectify any of these problems, which plagued our relations with Europe up to Brexit and beyond. Our vocational training remains hopelessly inadequate, our language skills a disgrace, our professional registration and tax systems totally incompatible. The Mid-lower and lower middle classes and aspiring working classes – the engine of democracy, the mainstay of the electoral system and the enemies of Socialism in the ideological sense – saw nothing in Europe. Watch day time tv and sooner or later you will see a programme about emigration to Australia.

Mass immigration from Europe, the driving force of the Leave vote, was created deliberately by the Westminster political class, in the expectation that they would never be called to account for it. Now they have, and the waters (and other waters for a considerable distance around) have been muddied and poisoned.

We need rid of our political class

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago

This article seems to prove its own point by omission – that the British, and particularly the English never cared much about the Empire except as an emigration destination – to which end India and Pakistan meant nothing to them, nor the Far East. The White Dominions were the Empire, in their eyes and they would just as lief emigrate to the USA.

Europe, that traditionsl and very recent enemy – from Agincourt to Arnhem, Malpaquet to Normandy, Badajoz to Berlin – meant nothing in that vein. They did not speak any of the mosaic of languages, their educational and trades certifications meant nothing there. Rates of pay were not attractive, taxation excessive and benefits (including social housing) inaccessible.

Significantly, their political leaders chose to make no attempt to rectify any of these problems, which plagued our relations with Europe up to Brexit and beyond. Our vocational training remains hopelessly inadequate, our language skills a disgrace, our professional registration and tax systems totally incompatible. The Mid-lower and lower middle classes and aspiring working classes – the engine of democracy, the mainstay of the electoral system and the enemies of Socialism in the ideological sense – saw nothing in Europe. Watch day time tv and sooner or later you will see a programme about emigration to Australia.

Mass immigration from Europe, the driving force of the Leave vote, was created deliberately by the Westminster political class, in the expectation that they would never be called to account for it. Now they have, and the waters (and other waters for a considerable distance around) have been muddied and poisoned.

We need rid of our political class

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

I disagree with the implied dichotomy between the different version of Brexit and the internationalist versus domestic set of political priorities described above.

There was a time – post-Empire – where Britain was a manufacturing exporter, thus possessing a genuine global reach, settled domestic political priorities, and none of this depended upon it maintaining strategic global dominance. There is no conflict in principle between domestic political priorities on the one hand and heavy involvement in global trade on the other: they are different things but for the most part need not involve serious trade-offs against each other (it’s important to note here that protectionism, the classic political response to free global trade, is itself a tradeoff in which consumers suffer in order to benefit chosen producers, so it can’t be used to contradict the general point I’m making here).

As a specific example, the period of Britain’s manufacturing export heyday was accompanied by an immigration level that was effectively negligible, which you would think was impossible given the tone of debate these days about what is required to run an “open” economy. There is an incompatbility between controlled immigration and open trade only in the sense of how the Liberal-Left would like to run a country, and because the Liberal Establishment runs the West and sets the parameters of trade treaty negotiations, its political priorites emerge in the resulting treaties.

Now I realise of course that I refer to a prior age when the world was very different and it is not a simple thing to revive a general manufacturing export sector any more. My point here is that this is practical challenge, not some obstacle of logical principle that is under discussion. Germany still possesses such a thing despite having no global clout much beyond Britain’s: the difference has been in the priorities that have been maintained over time, not in any serious differences in strategic limitations.

I maintain that although there was a tension between different priorities over how to execute Brexit (and stll is, it isn;’t over by any means), the argument is more about in which order things are to be done and not about whether to do them at all. There is no conflict between re-establishing a global outlook for an independent Britain and also repairing the domestic sociopolitical order after the damage that EU membership did to it.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

excellent. Thanks

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

excellent. Thanks

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

I disagree with the implied dichotomy between the different version of Brexit and the internationalist versus domestic set of political priorities described above.

There was a time – post-Empire – where Britain was a manufacturing exporter, thus possessing a genuine global reach, settled domestic political priorities, and none of this depended upon it maintaining strategic global dominance. There is no conflict in principle between domestic political priorities on the one hand and heavy involvement in global trade on the other: they are different things but for the most part need not involve serious trade-offs against each other (it’s important to note here that protectionism, the classic political response to free global trade, is itself a tradeoff in which consumers suffer in order to benefit chosen producers, so it can’t be used to contradict the general point I’m making here).

As a specific example, the period of Britain’s manufacturing export heyday was accompanied by an immigration level that was effectively negligible, which you would think was impossible given the tone of debate these days about what is required to run an “open” economy. There is an incompatbility between controlled immigration and open trade only in the sense of how the Liberal-Left would like to run a country, and because the Liberal Establishment runs the West and sets the parameters of trade treaty negotiations, its political priorites emerge in the resulting treaties.

Now I realise of course that I refer to a prior age when the world was very different and it is not a simple thing to revive a general manufacturing export sector any more. My point here is that this is practical challenge, not some obstacle of logical principle that is under discussion. Germany still possesses such a thing despite having no global clout much beyond Britain’s: the difference has been in the priorities that have been maintained over time, not in any serious differences in strategic limitations.

I maintain that although there was a tension between different priorities over how to execute Brexit (and stll is, it isn;’t over by any means), the argument is more about in which order things are to be done and not about whether to do them at all. There is no conflict between re-establishing a global outlook for an independent Britain and also repairing the domestic sociopolitical order after the damage that EU membership did to it.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Edward Seymour
Edward Seymour
1 year ago

The author declares that our European neighbours have a secure sense of nationhood. Is this really true? Does Spain? Does Italy, which actually has a political party dedicated to expelling its southern half? Does Belgium which spent a long time with no government at all, as did Holland which currently is destroying its patrimony by abolishing 3000 farms and therefore farming families. Even France in the banlieues – a sense of nationhood there? Is not the problem that the EU merely reflects and then exacerbates, the fading of any concept of national identity on the part of those who govern us and claim to think for us? The great contradiction is that the peoples see themselves as belonging to homes identified within borders, but those who claim to know better deny it and indeed call us unpleasant names for wanting the identity of being French, or British or whatever.

Edward Seymour
Edward Seymour
1 year ago

The author declares that our European neighbours have a secure sense of nationhood. Is this really true? Does Spain? Does Italy, which actually has a political party dedicated to expelling its southern half? Does Belgium which spent a long time with no government at all, as did Holland which currently is destroying its patrimony by abolishing 3000 farms and therefore farming families. Even France in the banlieues – a sense of nationhood there? Is not the problem that the EU merely reflects and then exacerbates, the fading of any concept of national identity on the part of those who govern us and claim to think for us? The great contradiction is that the peoples see themselves as belonging to homes identified within borders, but those who claim to know better deny it and indeed call us unpleasant names for wanting the identity of being French, or British or whatever.

Graffiti Avenue
Graffiti Avenue
1 year ago

As Peter Hitchens said Britain as a country has no future but one.It is not a very positive one it’s a choice of bending over & serving America or China take your pick.
Sorry too sound downbeat.

J Bryant
J Bryant
1 year ago

As an American, I’d say Britain’s challenge is how to position itself between the US and the EU. Those are its natural allies both ideologically and culturally, but it shouldn’t be subservient to either. Both the US and EU have problems, but I find it hard to imagine the UK significantly aligning itself with China.
The current article is certainly interesting. I don’t know if the author’s thesis is correct but it’s one way to explain the baffling fact that the Conservatives have had a solid majority in parliament for several years, a clear mandate from the electorate, and yet have failed to enact a comprehensive conservative agenda.
My potential criticism of the article is that perhaps the author is over-thinking the current malaise in UK politics. Thirty-plus years of neoliberalism in the West has resulted in outsourcing of manufacturing and many hi-tech jobs, while importing a multicultural agenda that favors business but has undermined Western societies so that we now see the rise of extreme ideologies, such as wokeism, determined to further undermine national cultures. There is no easy way back from this situation. I suspect most politicians are daunted by the task, or are just too incompetent to formulate solutions.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

There are two separate issues in play here; Brexit and the nature of our governing class. Are they capable of exploiting the massive potential freedoms and economic advantages that accrue from the recoverery of national autonomy and escape from the dead hand of a decaying 27 State Empire in Europe?? No. Our Blob and technocracy have lost the ability to initiate policy. They are stale and brain dead conformists numbed by decades of waiting for their superiors in Brussels to deliver our laws & regulations in boxes on a plate every week. They are ideologically wedded still to the bureaucratic, risk averse EU, and like sheep still follow its warped dogmas on identity, degrowth and climate change zealotry. And they are crap at the business of governance. So the hand brake is on and we have not even begun the Brexit adventure; our laws and regulations are STILL EU laws and no one is bothering to change. Maybe only in a decade or two when the inherent flaws in the Euro and its half baked monetary system trigger a revolution/crash will a fresh free thinking generation here start to take advantage of sovereignty, a fairly simple democratic concept that works pretty well for the US and most of the world.

Helen Goethals
Helen Goethals
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I agree that the exercise of sovereignty is one of the central questions of our time, but the concept is certainly not ‘fairly simple’ nor is it particularly ‘democratic’. In a world in which elections (and indeed decisions like Brexit) are relentlessly rigged, how sovereign are the people?

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Helen Goethals

C21st politics & democracy is not simple, agreed. We could debate the virtues and flaws of first past the post all day. But the idea of sovereignty surely is. The Brexit referendum debate was warped by Project Fears. But I know of no one who deems it electorally ‘rigged’. We were owed a vote after the EU constutitional revolution of the 90s. It was the people who twice overturned the efforts of Ari’s ghastly elite to ‘do a France’ and ignore their democratic will.

Helen Goethals
Helen Goethals
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I used the term ‘rigged’ in a very wide sense, going beyond mere vote-counting. Re Brexit, for example, much of the information and figures given about the EU were misleading, to say the least. Much of the GB press is owned by people who do not live in Britain and so are unaffected by the consequences of the political campaigns they wage. (I could go on but won’t) Besides which, to ask such an important question and set the majority at 50+% is asking for civil war.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Helen Goethals

In hindsight, we can see the merit in a 60% target win. But the deal both sides signed up for was 50%+. Talk of the power of media barons and dodgy data really troubles me. It smacks of the Remainer credo that only right thinking graduates should have the vote and certainly not the oikish gammon northern racists who had the temerity to threaten Londoners 2 decade long untaxed million pound property bonanza. We had months and months of open debate and it was perfectly possible for anyone half educated and interested to fact check and to assess the credibility of the projected horrors and possibilities. Only one side had a Project Fear with the full force of the State, Big Business and a majority of politicians (,not to mention a BBC) behind it. That fact alone gives me faith in the robust independent thinking of our electorate.

Paul Curtin
Paul Curtin
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Spot on

Paul Curtin
Paul Curtin
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Spot on

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago
Reply to  Helen Goethals

Not to mention bad actors like the egregious Dyson, preaching brexit but being a total globalist, then hightailing it out once the vote was won.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Helen Goethals

And yet MPs overwhelmingly voted to hold the EU referendum and accepted the terms for it without as I recall any seriuous dissent. They had plenty of opportunity to anticipate the “problems” you claim exist – and yet did nothing.
Did I miss the civil war ? The public at large accepted the result of the referendum. It’s mainly the media and politicians who refuse to accept it. As I said, the very same people who could have changed the terms of the referendum in the first place. But were too complacent/lazy/stupid to do so. Thankfully – so the people actually got heard.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Helen Goethals

In hindsight, we can see the merit in a 60% target win. But the deal both sides signed up for was 50%+. Talk of the power of media barons and dodgy data really troubles me. It smacks of the Remainer credo that only right thinking graduates should have the vote and certainly not the oikish gammon northern racists who had the temerity to threaten Londoners 2 decade long untaxed million pound property bonanza. We had months and months of open debate and it was perfectly possible for anyone half educated and interested to fact check and to assess the credibility of the projected horrors and possibilities. Only one side had a Project Fear with the full force of the State, Big Business and a majority of politicians (,not to mention a BBC) behind it. That fact alone gives me faith in the robust independent thinking of our electorate.

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago
Reply to  Helen Goethals

Not to mention bad actors like the egregious Dyson, preaching brexit but being a total globalist, then hightailing it out once the vote was won.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Helen Goethals

And yet MPs overwhelmingly voted to hold the EU referendum and accepted the terms for it without as I recall any seriuous dissent. They had plenty of opportunity to anticipate the “problems” you claim exist – and yet did nothing.
Did I miss the civil war ? The public at large accepted the result of the referendum. It’s mainly the media and politicians who refuse to accept it. As I said, the very same people who could have changed the terms of the referendum in the first place. But were too complacent/lazy/stupid to do so. Thankfully – so the people actually got heard.

Helen Goethals
Helen Goethals
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I used the term ‘rigged’ in a very wide sense, going beyond mere vote-counting. Re Brexit, for example, much of the information and figures given about the EU were misleading, to say the least. Much of the GB press is owned by people who do not live in Britain and so are unaffected by the consequences of the political campaigns they wage. (I could go on but won’t) Besides which, to ask such an important question and set the majority at 50+% is asking for civil war.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  Helen Goethals

C21st politics & democracy is not simple, agreed. We could debate the virtues and flaws of first past the post all day. But the idea of sovereignty surely is. The Brexit referendum debate was warped by Project Fears. But I know of no one who deems it electorally ‘rigged’. We were owed a vote after the EU constutitional revolution of the 90s. It was the people who twice overturned the efforts of Ari’s ghastly elite to ‘do a France’ and ignore their democratic will.

Helen Goethals
Helen Goethals
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I agree that the exercise of sovereignty is one of the central questions of our time, but the concept is certainly not ‘fairly simple’ nor is it particularly ‘democratic’. In a world in which elections (and indeed decisions like Brexit) are relentlessly rigged, how sovereign are the people?

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

“just too incompetent to formulate solutions.”
Thats the one.

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

True – i was at university with many who are now blobby Panjandrums and can testify to their stupidity and laziness. Its little wonder they achieve nothing. Reminds me of “Saudi-isation” in the 70s and 80s when KSA decreed Princelings were to study and then work, each minor branch of the nobility seeing to it that this is done – or else. Guess what they did? Adopt Jordanian, Syrian, even Iraqi “sons” and send them to be engineers, accountants, doctors etc.

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

True – i was at university with many who are now blobby Panjandrums and can testify to their stupidity and laziness. Its little wonder they achieve nothing. Reminds me of “Saudi-isation” in the 70s and 80s when KSA decreed Princelings were to study and then work, each minor branch of the nobility seeing to it that this is done – or else. Guess what they did? Adopt Jordanian, Syrian, even Iraqi “sons” and send them to be engineers, accountants, doctors etc.

Tim Benjamin
Tim Benjamin
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

> As an American, I’d say Britain’s challenge is how to position itself between the US and the EU.

As an American, perhaps you miss the better fit, which is for Britain to position itself all-in as an equal member (NOT leader / ruler!) of the Commonwealth. The opportunities have been ignored for 50 years. Imagine for example what a deregulated free trade area across the CW might look like… It’s a collection of national economies in which each member has something to sell that the other members want to buy, unlike, on the whole, the EU (and perhaps US too).

Last edited 1 year ago by Tim Benjamin
mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Tim Benjamin

TBH they are not big economies, unless Nigeria and RSA are still CW? Even if they are whilst its a great idea on its own it’d take a long time to get pay back when we could open up more with BICs economies and add the R from Brics back in once sobriety re-asserts itself post Putin.

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  Tim Benjamin

Spot on. We (or, rather, the arrogant Edward Heath) abandoned the CW for the protectionist and corrupt EU, That meant we had to impose tariffs against the rest of the world and hand the tariff revenues to Brussels so they could lavishly fund the CAP that subsidised inefficient French, Italian, German, Spanish farmers at the expense of British consumers and poor farmers in India and Africa whose products were immorally subjected to protective tariffs.

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Tim Benjamin

TBH they are not big economies, unless Nigeria and RSA are still CW? Even if they are whilst its a great idea on its own it’d take a long time to get pay back when we could open up more with BICs economies and add the R from Brics back in once sobriety re-asserts itself post Putin.

Roger Sandilands
Roger Sandilands
1 year ago
Reply to  Tim Benjamin

Spot on. We (or, rather, the arrogant Edward Heath) abandoned the CW for the protectionist and corrupt EU, That meant we had to impose tariffs against the rest of the world and hand the tariff revenues to Brussels so they could lavishly fund the CAP that subsidised inefficient French, Italian, German, Spanish farmers at the expense of British consumers and poor farmers in India and Africa whose products were immorally subjected to protective tariffs.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Agreed. And I’ll go with ‘too incompetent’.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

I do not believe that the US and EU have ever been allies of the UK. Even when we have been allies of convenience both the US and the other nations of the EU have been consistently more focused on furthering their national advantage at the expense of the UK

Kent Ausburn
Kent Ausburn
1 year ago

Get real, all countries owe it to their citizens to put their own best interests above all others, even allies. Allies should, no doubt, be next in line of policy priorities.

Kent Ausburn
Kent Ausburn
1 year ago

Get real, all countries owe it to their citizens to put their own best interests above all others, even allies. Allies should, no doubt, be next in line of policy priorities.

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Totally agree – we need to play the field like Singapore and UAE/Qatar does now, and the Dutch did back in the 17-18th Cs. Problem is we won’t do that with an antiquated feudal legal system owned by an elite that lives in fear and loathing of the 98% of us who actually pay their wages. Ironically the European “one law for all” Roman Law would be a start in solving this issue.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

There are two separate issues in play here; Brexit and the nature of our governing class. Are they capable of exploiting the massive potential freedoms and economic advantages that accrue from the recoverery of national autonomy and escape from the dead hand of a decaying 27 State Empire in Europe?? No. Our Blob and technocracy have lost the ability to initiate policy. They are stale and brain dead conformists numbed by decades of waiting for their superiors in Brussels to deliver our laws & regulations in boxes on a plate every week. They are ideologically wedded still to the bureaucratic, risk averse EU, and like sheep still follow its warped dogmas on identity, degrowth and climate change zealotry. And they are crap at the business of governance. So the hand brake is on and we have not even begun the Brexit adventure; our laws and regulations are STILL EU laws and no one is bothering to change. Maybe only in a decade or two when the inherent flaws in the Euro and its half baked monetary system trigger a revolution/crash will a fresh free thinking generation here start to take advantage of sovereignty, a fairly simple democratic concept that works pretty well for the US and most of the world.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

“just too incompetent to formulate solutions.”
Thats the one.

Tim Benjamin
Tim Benjamin
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

> As an American, I’d say Britain’s challenge is how to position itself between the US and the EU.

As an American, perhaps you miss the better fit, which is for Britain to position itself all-in as an equal member (NOT leader / ruler!) of the Commonwealth. The opportunities have been ignored for 50 years. Imagine for example what a deregulated free trade area across the CW might look like… It’s a collection of national economies in which each member has something to sell that the other members want to buy, unlike, on the whole, the EU (and perhaps US too).

Last edited 1 year ago by Tim Benjamin
Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Agreed. And I’ll go with ‘too incompetent’.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

I do not believe that the US and EU have ever been allies of the UK. Even when we have been allies of convenience both the US and the other nations of the EU have been consistently more focused on furthering their national advantage at the expense of the UK

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Totally agree – we need to play the field like Singapore and UAE/Qatar does now, and the Dutch did back in the 17-18th Cs. Problem is we won’t do that with an antiquated feudal legal system owned by an elite that lives in fear and loathing of the 98% of us who actually pay their wages. Ironically the European “one law for all” Roman Law would be a start in solving this issue.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

I don’t subscribe to this pessimism.
And the assumption that being a US ally involves serving and being exploited by the US seems questionable.
Are Norway, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand and similar countries subject to the same binary choice you suggest ? Are they slavishly serving the US and being exploited whilst doing so ? I don’t see much evidence to support this view. Or that they’re doing worse than the US – it’s surely a given that a country “serving America” must be doing worse economically and in other respects than the USA. Yet this is clearly not the case for many such countries.

J Bryant
J Bryant
1 year ago

As an American, I’d say Britain’s challenge is how to position itself between the US and the EU. Those are its natural allies both ideologically and culturally, but it shouldn’t be subservient to either. Both the US and EU have problems, but I find it hard to imagine the UK significantly aligning itself with China.
The current article is certainly interesting. I don’t know if the author’s thesis is correct but it’s one way to explain the baffling fact that the Conservatives have had a solid majority in parliament for several years, a clear mandate from the electorate, and yet have failed to enact a comprehensive conservative agenda.
My potential criticism of the article is that perhaps the author is over-thinking the current malaise in UK politics. Thirty-plus years of neoliberalism in the West has resulted in outsourcing of manufacturing and many hi-tech jobs, while importing a multicultural agenda that favors business but has undermined Western societies so that we now see the rise of extreme ideologies, such as wokeism, determined to further undermine national cultures. There is no easy way back from this situation. I suspect most politicians are daunted by the task, or are just too incompetent to formulate solutions.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

I don’t subscribe to this pessimism.
And the assumption that being a US ally involves serving and being exploited by the US seems questionable.
Are Norway, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand and similar countries subject to the same binary choice you suggest ? Are they slavishly serving the US and being exploited whilst doing so ? I don’t see much evidence to support this view. Or that they’re doing worse than the US – it’s surely a given that a country “serving America” must be doing worse economically and in other respects than the USA. Yet this is clearly not the case for many such countries.

Graffiti Avenue
Graffiti Avenue
1 year ago

As Peter Hitchens said Britain as a country has no future but one.It is not a very positive one it’s a choice of bending over & serving America or China take your pick.
Sorry too sound downbeat.

Peter Gardner
Peter Gardner
1 year ago

I’m not a fan of David Cameron but during the EU Referendum campaign he put more succintly what I think this article is attempting to say: “The UK no longer has the capacity for self-government.”
It was perhaps the most profound comment of the entire EU Referendum campaigns.
After decades of EU technocratic government, it should not be surprising.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Gardner

He was both right and wrong. If remarking upon the existing British Establishment, he’s right. If he’s referring to the whole nation, he’s wrong.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Gardner

He was both right and wrong. If remarking upon the existing British Establishment, he’s right. If he’s referring to the whole nation, he’s wrong.

Peter Gardner
Peter Gardner
1 year ago

I’m not a fan of David Cameron but during the EU Referendum campaign he put more succintly what I think this article is attempting to say: “The UK no longer has the capacity for self-government.”
It was perhaps the most profound comment of the entire EU Referendum campaigns.
After decades of EU technocratic government, it should not be surprising.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
1 year ago

Yes, governing a nation is hard work; easier to cede authority to self-appointed unaccountable bodies and corporations and rule in the name of science and progress while letting everything rot.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
1 year ago

Yes, governing a nation is hard work; easier to cede authority to self-appointed unaccountable bodies and corporations and rule in the name of science and progress while letting everything rot.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

“What evidence for this prediction can we find, a half-century later, in the collapsing British state of 2023?”.
Why do these articles always start out from false (or at best unproven) premises ?
It isn’t 2023 yet.
The British state has not collapsed.
There is no certainty that it will. I wouldn’t put any money on that happening.
And where is the evidence for this assumption “inward-looking domesticity of the British electorate” ? A very big assumption, and not one I find at all convincing.
I don’t consider Britain any more or less “globally relevant” than it was 40 years ago.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Forty years is nothing. Try 60.

Jonathan Andrews
Jonathan Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I found the article hard to follow but also littered with big statements.

I find the comments about 22 being a bad year and 23 being worse odd. It would certainly be a bad year if you lost your job, you were ill, your wife ran off with the milkman or whatever put political turmoil and economic data don’t mean much unless those thing lead directly to the first in that list.

The political probably isn’t personal, we make the best of the situations in which we find ourselves.

I think the struggles that the nation faces can be placed at the feet of those, probably educated in the humanities, who have these grand visions of how the world is or should be. Whether they are politicians or journalists, I wish they would reel themselves in. I wish politicians would concentrate on basics like making sure the street lights work or that we have an adequate military. I wish journalists would work hard on discovering and exposing cheats and frauds and stop opining on such intangibles

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

“I find the comments about 22 being a bad year and 23 being worse odd. It would certainly be a bad year if you lost your job, you were ill, your wife ran off with the milkman or whatever put political turmoil and economic data don’t mean much unless those thing lead directly to the first in that list.”

Interesting point, which reminds me of a study I saw reported recently which asked people what they predicted for the economy in general over the next 5 years, and also how they predicted their personal circumstances would change over the same period. A trend emerged in which people tended to be pessimistic about the economy (and the state of the world in general), but optimistic about their own prospects. It implies that there’s a general cognitive dissonance about the relationship between the individual vs the collective, which is also visible in the general perception that when people can’t find a good job they blame the economy, but when they’ve got one they tend to regard it as the result of individual success.

(I tend not to suffer from the last thing because I’m a contractor and change jobs twice or three times a year: I know exactly how much the economy affects my chances of getting my next contract – quite a lot).

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

“I find the comments about 22 being a bad year and 23 being worse odd. It would certainly be a bad year if you lost your job, you were ill, your wife ran off with the milkman or whatever put political turmoil and economic data don’t mean much unless those thing lead directly to the first in that list.”

Interesting point, which reminds me of a study I saw reported recently which asked people what they predicted for the economy in general over the next 5 years, and also how they predicted their personal circumstances would change over the same period. A trend emerged in which people tended to be pessimistic about the economy (and the state of the world in general), but optimistic about their own prospects. It implies that there’s a general cognitive dissonance about the relationship between the individual vs the collective, which is also visible in the general perception that when people can’t find a good job they blame the economy, but when they’ve got one they tend to regard it as the result of individual success.

(I tend not to suffer from the last thing because I’m a contractor and change jobs twice or three times a year: I know exactly how much the economy affects my chances of getting my next contract – quite a lot).

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Thanks for adding a few more false assumptions to the growing list. I’m sure there’s more, but there’s some celebrations to prepare for welcoming in the new year of 2023, and dwelling on defeatist rhetoric isn’t in the nature of most of us in the UK.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

If I’d read your comment first, I wouldn’t have needed to post mine – you pretty much covered it.
This notion that British people are all “inward looking” just doesn’t fit with my experience.
These “crisis media” types really need to stop eating their own dog food and wallowing in fantasy declinism and doom mongering.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

If I’d read your comment first, I wouldn’t have needed to post mine – you pretty much covered it.
This notion that British people are all “inward looking” just doesn’t fit with my experience.
These “crisis media” types really need to stop eating their own dog food and wallowing in fantasy declinism and doom mongering.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Forty years is nothing. Try 60.

Jonathan Andrews
Jonathan Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I found the article hard to follow but also littered with big statements.

I find the comments about 22 being a bad year and 23 being worse odd. It would certainly be a bad year if you lost your job, you were ill, your wife ran off with the milkman or whatever put political turmoil and economic data don’t mean much unless those thing lead directly to the first in that list.

The political probably isn’t personal, we make the best of the situations in which we find ourselves.

I think the struggles that the nation faces can be placed at the feet of those, probably educated in the humanities, who have these grand visions of how the world is or should be. Whether they are politicians or journalists, I wish they would reel themselves in. I wish politicians would concentrate on basics like making sure the street lights work or that we have an adequate military. I wish journalists would work hard on discovering and exposing cheats and frauds and stop opining on such intangibles

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Thanks for adding a few more false assumptions to the growing list. I’m sure there’s more, but there’s some celebrations to prepare for welcoming in the new year of 2023, and dwelling on defeatist rhetoric isn’t in the nature of most of us in the UK.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

“What evidence for this prediction can we find, a half-century later, in the collapsing British state of 2023?”.
Why do these articles always start out from false (or at best unproven) premises ?
It isn’t 2023 yet.
The British state has not collapsed.
There is no certainty that it will. I wouldn’t put any money on that happening.
And where is the evidence for this assumption “inward-looking domesticity of the British electorate” ? A very big assumption, and not one I find at all convincing.
I don’t consider Britain any more or less “globally relevant” than it was 40 years ago.

Peter Romilly
Peter Romilly
1 year ago

“to become a prosperous European country, Britain must still liberate itself from the self-defeating foibles and global aspirations of the Westminster class.”

Absolutely!

Peter Romilly
Peter Romilly
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Romilly

The same obviously apples to the Whitehall class.

Peter Romilly
Peter Romilly
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Romilly

The same obviously apples to the Whitehall class.

Peter Romilly
Peter Romilly
1 year ago

“to become a prosperous European country, Britain must still liberate itself from the self-defeating foibles and global aspirations of the Westminster class.”

Absolutely!

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

Baffling, isn’t it: the more useless and incompetent our bureaucrats and politicians
become, the more power we insist on giving them.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

Baffling, isn’t it: the more useless and incompetent our bureaucrats and politicians
become, the more power we insist on giving them.

Peter Scott
Peter Scott
1 year ago

The question which haunts my thinking on these issues is – how long will it take before the electorate as a whole realises that its Political Class (effectually Caste) is its no.1 enemy?

Peter Scott
Peter Scott
1 year ago

The question which haunts my thinking on these issues is – how long will it take before the electorate as a whole realises that its Political Class (effectually Caste) is its no.1 enemy?

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 year ago

Britain, with 68 million people and 5th or 6th largest economy in the world, is not a small nation.

We get the Government we deserve, that’s democracy, and it’s much the same story in all the westernised countries we spend time in. Politicians give in to our demands for more, more, more, now, now, now – but we don’t have the productivity to match. The younger generations aren’t showing any desire to work even as hard as we did – hence the need for hard-working industrious immigrants – but they too need housing, education, healthcare and benefits, so the whole Ponzi scheme that is the economy continues. That’s modern life in the West.

Julian Pellatt
Julian Pellatt
1 year ago
Reply to  Deb Grant

In 1982 the UK population was c.50 million. In the intervening 40 years the UK population has expanded by approximately 500,000 people annually! Either the native UK population is very fertile and has a phenomenal birth rate, or those extra souls have arrived from elsewhere.

Julian Pellatt
Julian Pellatt
1 year ago
Reply to  Deb Grant

In 1982 the UK population was c.50 million. In the intervening 40 years the UK population has expanded by approximately 500,000 people annually! Either the native UK population is very fertile and has a phenomenal birth rate, or those extra souls have arrived from elsewhere.

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 year ago

Britain, with 68 million people and 5th or 6th largest economy in the world, is not a small nation.

We get the Government we deserve, that’s democracy, and it’s much the same story in all the westernised countries we spend time in. Politicians give in to our demands for more, more, more, now, now, now – but we don’t have the productivity to match. The younger generations aren’t showing any desire to work even as hard as we did – hence the need for hard-working industrious immigrants – but they too need housing, education, healthcare and benefits, so the whole Ponzi scheme that is the economy continues. That’s modern life in the West.

Hank Brad
Hank Brad
1 year ago

the historically unprecedented levels of inward migration to which the British political class had committed itself.
Hmm, wasn’t that just a cynical and small part of the ‘British political class’ which wished to commit British politics, via overwhelming immigration, to less British behavior – as the American ‘Democratic’ party is now doing to the United States?

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Hank Brad

“inward migration”
What exactly is this? 

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

INVASION.

El Uro
El Uro
1 year ago

I like you 🙂

El Uro
El Uro
1 year ago

I like you 🙂

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

INVASION.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Hank Brad

“inward migration”
What exactly is this? 

Hank Brad
Hank Brad
1 year ago

the historically unprecedented levels of inward migration to which the British political class had committed itself.
Hmm, wasn’t that just a cynical and small part of the ‘British political class’ which wished to commit British politics, via overwhelming immigration, to less British behavior – as the American ‘Democratic’ party is now doing to the United States?

Sam Brown
Sam Brown
1 year ago

There is a defeatism here that is despicable. We have the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world and we still lead the world in many fields. God, how I hate those who have already consigned us to the bin!

Sam Brown
Sam Brown
1 year ago

There is a defeatism here that is despicable. We have the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world and we still lead the world in many fields. God, how I hate those who have already consigned us to the bin!

Jake Prior
Jake Prior
1 year ago

I think it would probably be preferable to live in a land of global irrelevance such as Switzerland or Norway, or Costa Rica – than those making setting the global agendas – Russia, China and the US. Indeed from my understanding of the end of the empire, it was precisely the demand of the indigenous population to focus on the domestic agenda rather than aspirations of global power that led to us handing power back to the colonies. But I have to say it was a well written article, our history and geography is very different to Switzerland or Norway, perhaps it’s not realistic to expect us to behave like them. Yet I feel there’s a self-fulfilling defeatism that this narrative feeds.

Jake Prior
Jake Prior
1 year ago

I think it would probably be preferable to live in a land of global irrelevance such as Switzerland or Norway, or Costa Rica – than those making setting the global agendas – Russia, China and the US. Indeed from my understanding of the end of the empire, it was precisely the demand of the indigenous population to focus on the domestic agenda rather than aspirations of global power that led to us handing power back to the colonies. But I have to say it was a well written article, our history and geography is very different to Switzerland or Norway, perhaps it’s not realistic to expect us to behave like them. Yet I feel there’s a self-fulfilling defeatism that this narrative feeds.

Philip Crowley
Philip Crowley
1 year ago

I’m thrilled that you compared the ‘commenting class’ to Hyacinth Bucket and then immediately called them lower middle class, politely, in French. They will hate you, but you have my admiration, and my ear. I enjoy reading your take on things, Aris.

Philip Crowley
Philip Crowley
1 year ago

I’m thrilled that you compared the ‘commenting class’ to Hyacinth Bucket and then immediately called them lower middle class, politely, in French. They will hate you, but you have my admiration, and my ear. I enjoy reading your take on things, Aris.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago

“This interpretation does much to explain the strange pathologies of the 21st-century Westminster class, and elucidates the strange mystery of why Britain, more or less uniquely in Europe, possesses a markedly anti-national commenting class (intelligentsia is not quite the right word), whose European pretensions, like the continental affectations of a Hyacinth Bucket, are simply those of the provincial petit bourgeois, repelled by the drab simplicities of home”.

The best sentence in a brilliant article. Thank you so much…a great start into the new year. At least as far as thought provoking writing goes.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago

“This interpretation does much to explain the strange pathologies of the 21st-century Westminster class, and elucidates the strange mystery of why Britain, more or less uniquely in Europe, possesses a markedly anti-national commenting class (intelligentsia is not quite the right word), whose European pretensions, like the continental affectations of a Hyacinth Bucket, are simply those of the provincial petit bourgeois, repelled by the drab simplicities of home”.

The best sentence in a brilliant article. Thank you so much…a great start into the new year. At least as far as thought provoking writing goes.

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago

Invested wisely capital will give a return. Interest. We have spent all our capital (sold the country) and now have nothing to live on. Hard to see how we will get a leg back on the ladder. We can only borrow, so are owned by the banks.

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago

Invested wisely capital will give a return. Interest. We have spent all our capital (sold the country) and now have nothing to live on. Hard to see how we will get a leg back on the ladder. We can only borrow, so are owned by the banks.

Martin Terrell
Martin Terrell
1 year ago

Too true. I think Brexit was a last gasp of inward Britain to persuade its governing class to pay attention to the mundane business of government. Whether we were in or out of the EU was beside the point, we could have had better government as an EU member. The EU though had become an end in itself and excuse to avoid the realities of domestic life.
I’m not sure how far the Empire was a similar distraction. It probably was for our elites, but there was also a sense of national pride and national interest. There was more provincial pride in other parts of the country.

Martin Terrell
Martin Terrell
1 year ago

Too true. I think Brexit was a last gasp of inward Britain to persuade its governing class to pay attention to the mundane business of government. Whether we were in or out of the EU was beside the point, we could have had better government as an EU member. The EU though had become an end in itself and excuse to avoid the realities of domestic life.
I’m not sure how far the Empire was a similar distraction. It probably was for our elites, but there was also a sense of national pride and national interest. There was more provincial pride in other parts of the country.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago

The British people have a completely different attitude towards government and officialdom to the Europeans.
The Anglo sphere has a system of common law
which doesn’t exist anywhere else in Europe.
This probably explains why the continentals
are prone to electing
communist/socialist governments such as the Nazis.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

The only thing your remarkably stupid comment explains is the death of rational thought on the right.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

What’s stupid about it ?
It’s a valid opinion backed by facts.
You far left lunatics have nothing to to say.
You know nothing about the world and the way it works.
You are pathetic whining cowards who will give up your freedom and allow the government to ” look after ” you for the rest of your sanctimonious and miserable lives.
There has NEVER been rational thought on the left.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Precisely, well said.
These lefty toads need to be disciplined.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Precisely, well said.
These lefty toads need to be disciplined.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

What’s stupid about it ?
It’s a valid opinion backed by facts.
You far left lunatics have nothing to to say.
You know nothing about the world and the way it works.
You are pathetic whining cowards who will give up your freedom and allow the government to ” look after ” you for the rest of your sanctimonious and miserable lives.
There has NEVER been rational thought on the left.

Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

The only thing your remarkably stupid comment explains is the death of rational thought on the right.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago

The British people have a completely different attitude towards government and officialdom to the Europeans.
The Anglo sphere has a system of common law
which doesn’t exist anywhere else in Europe.
This probably explains why the continentals
are prone to electing
communist/socialist governments such as the Nazis.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
Saul D
Saul D
1 year ago

The UK got rich as a country of merchant venturers who went out of their way to trade with the wider world. Find stuff you want to buy. Find something from home to trade for it, and keep the engines of trade running – invent, make, improve, negotiate. Convert the profits into grand houses and social works.
Now we just focus on the social works. But no-one wants to trade with us for the NHS, and those social works bring people in, but without trade for something back. Our merchants need to rediscover Asia and Africa and find what those peoples will buy from us. Energy, infrastructure, communication, transport, defence used to be the strengths. But the US and the continent overtook us, and now it feels that all we have to sell are retailing, leisure and entertainment.
We need to sharpen our competitive spirit. Do stuff better than other countries on invent-and-make. Celebrate and foster achievement and creativity as a national good – make the enterprises compete, not just seek rent from playing games with regulations. The US is heading towards a tyranny of mediocrity. The EU is driving itself off a bureaucratic green-energy cliff. Step up with novel solutions for the emergent world, and build better trade and energy systems for home. And from the rewards of being better, build reformed social systems that are more efficient and more effective than the hand-me-down system used now.

Saul D
Saul D
1 year ago

The UK got rich as a country of merchant venturers who went out of their way to trade with the wider world. Find stuff you want to buy. Find something from home to trade for it, and keep the engines of trade running – invent, make, improve, negotiate. Convert the profits into grand houses and social works.
Now we just focus on the social works. But no-one wants to trade with us for the NHS, and those social works bring people in, but without trade for something back. Our merchants need to rediscover Asia and Africa and find what those peoples will buy from us. Energy, infrastructure, communication, transport, defence used to be the strengths. But the US and the continent overtook us, and now it feels that all we have to sell are retailing, leisure and entertainment.
We need to sharpen our competitive spirit. Do stuff better than other countries on invent-and-make. Celebrate and foster achievement and creativity as a national good – make the enterprises compete, not just seek rent from playing games with regulations. The US is heading towards a tyranny of mediocrity. The EU is driving itself off a bureaucratic green-energy cliff. Step up with novel solutions for the emergent world, and build better trade and energy systems for home. And from the rewards of being better, build reformed social systems that are more efficient and more effective than the hand-me-down system used now.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
1 year ago

Robert Tombs asks why we gave up on the Commonwealth and entered the EU. His answer is the same as the writer’s (and Pocock’s):

Why did Britain change policy? It happened suddenly under the Conservative government of Harold Macmillan. The reason was alarm, especially within the political and administrative establishment, that post-imperial Britain was being marginalized and was in other ways failing. ‘If we try to remain aloof,’ a Cabinet committee warned in 1960, ‘bearing in mind that this will be happening simultaneously with the contraction of our overseas possessions, we shall run the risk of [losing] any real claim to be a world Power.’13 It became an established assumption that the remedy was to move away from the Commonwealth and towards Europe.

Tombs, Robert. This Sovereign Isle (pp. 26-27). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition. 

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
1 year ago

Robert Tombs asks why we gave up on the Commonwealth and entered the EU. His answer is the same as the writer’s (and Pocock’s):

Why did Britain change policy? It happened suddenly under the Conservative government of Harold Macmillan. The reason was alarm, especially within the political and administrative establishment, that post-imperial Britain was being marginalized and was in other ways failing. ‘If we try to remain aloof,’ a Cabinet committee warned in 1960, ‘bearing in mind that this will be happening simultaneously with the contraction of our overseas possessions, we shall run the risk of [losing] any real claim to be a world Power.’13 It became an established assumption that the remedy was to move away from the Commonwealth and towards Europe.

Tombs, Robert. This Sovereign Isle (pp. 26-27). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition. 

DenialARiverIn Islington
DenialARiverIn Islington
1 year ago

People really do love to ascribe deep meaning and unknowable depths to matters of the simple business cycle. What if the reality is nothing like this complicated? What if pandemic and war has simply ushered in a difficult period and what if a lot of people who were on the losing side are still just a tad grumpy about Brexit and can’t reconcile themselves to it? Could it be that the reality is much more prosaic?

The article seems deep and meaningful but I think the argument is flimsy.

DenialARiverIn Islington
DenialARiverIn Islington
1 year ago

People really do love to ascribe deep meaning and unknowable depths to matters of the simple business cycle. What if the reality is nothing like this complicated? What if pandemic and war has simply ushered in a difficult period and what if a lot of people who were on the losing side are still just a tad grumpy about Brexit and can’t reconcile themselves to it? Could it be that the reality is much more prosaic?

The article seems deep and meaningful but I think the argument is flimsy.

Will D. Mann
Will D. Mann
1 year ago

Few outside the City of London can be happy with the particular form of Brexit we have

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Will D. Mann

Oh, i can assure you from a vantage point approximately 200 miles north of London, that without a single exception, those i know who voted for Brexit (myself included) wake up every morning congratulating ourselves for doing so. With our better judgment, we can fully understand that renewing our internal political and economic foundations will take longer than two minutes. We always knew this, even as we cast our vote.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Thank you from those of us who live within what Mary Harrington so memorably described as “the blast radius of London” – only the greater common sense of the Midlands and North saved us in 2016.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

That is an honest argument – but people like you must definitely be in the minority. Why else would the Brexit referendum campaign have been run entirely on shameless lying – ‘hundreds of millions for the NHS’, ‘they will give us a good deal because they need us’, ‘huge profitable trade deals with the rest of the world’? If you could have won on ‘We will be poorer, but we will be FREE!’ no one could have proposed a second referendum. But you did not dare try that, did you?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

It was not “lying” – it was a suggestion written on the side of a bus. It is entirely appropriate to state the fact that there is an opportunity cost associated with funding the EU – i.e. that there are other uses that money could be put to that might be more in Britain’s interests.
If Remain lost because the other side wrote a suggestion on the side of a bus, they’d be better employed asking themselves why they didn’t/couldn’t make a more convincing case.
Or why their doom-laden forecasts of the consequences of leaving (where’s George Osborne these days ?) never came to pass.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

So lying does not count if you write it on the side of a bus? Does it count when it comes out of Boris Johnson’s mouth – or is he also exempt? The Brexit message was clear: Brexit would be a huge win everywhere and there would be no associated cost. And it was a deliberate lie.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Once again, it was a suggestion. Not a promise. Not a commitment.
Also, it was entirely possible to disagree with throwing more money at the NHS and still vote leave.
Your attempt to rewrite history here is not convincing. Of course people understand that any change creates winners and losers and that there will be some transition costs from a major change like leaving the EU.
We keep hearing opponents of Brexit tell those who voted leave why they did so. They’re usually wrong. It’s beyond tiresome now.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Once again, it was a suggestion. Not a promise. Not a commitment.
Also, it was entirely possible to disagree with throwing more money at the NHS and still vote leave.
Your attempt to rewrite history here is not convincing. Of course people understand that any change creates winners and losers and that there will be some transition costs from a major change like leaving the EU.
We keep hearing opponents of Brexit tell those who voted leave why they did so. They’re usually wrong. It’s beyond tiresome now.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

So lying does not count if you write it on the side of a bus? Does it count when it comes out of Boris Johnson’s mouth – or is he also exempt? The Brexit message was clear: Brexit would be a huge win everywhere and there would be no associated cost. And it was a deliberate lie.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

It was not “lying” – it was a suggestion written on the side of a bus. It is entirely appropriate to state the fact that there is an opportunity cost associated with funding the EU – i.e. that there are other uses that money could be put to that might be more in Britain’s interests.
If Remain lost because the other side wrote a suggestion on the side of a bus, they’d be better employed asking themselves why they didn’t/couldn’t make a more convincing case.
Or why their doom-laden forecasts of the consequences of leaving (where’s George Osborne these days ?) never came to pass.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Thank you from those of us who live within what Mary Harrington so memorably described as “the blast radius of London” – only the greater common sense of the Midlands and North saved us in 2016.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

That is an honest argument – but people like you must definitely be in the minority. Why else would the Brexit referendum campaign have been run entirely on shameless lying – ‘hundreds of millions for the NHS’, ‘they will give us a good deal because they need us’, ‘huge profitable trade deals with the rest of the world’? If you could have won on ‘We will be poorer, but we will be FREE!’ no one could have proposed a second referendum. But you did not dare try that, did you?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Will D. Mann

You mustn’t assume that everyone is driven politically by shallow materialism, you know.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Will D. Mann

Oh, i can assure you from a vantage point approximately 200 miles north of London, that without a single exception, those i know who voted for Brexit (myself included) wake up every morning congratulating ourselves for doing so. With our better judgment, we can fully understand that renewing our internal political and economic foundations will take longer than two minutes. We always knew this, even as we cast our vote.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Will D. Mann

You mustn’t assume that everyone is driven politically by shallow materialism, you know.

Will D. Mann
Will D. Mann
1 year ago

Few outside the City of London can be happy with the particular form of Brexit we have

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

To help you get over your disappointment with the Brexit error, you are falling back on the excuse beloved of failed Communists and other assorted ideologues everywhere – “there’s nothing wrong with [Communism / Brexit], it’s just that it was *never implemented properly*.” 
But please, when running that default failed-ideologue line, stop fabricating base facts, and leaving others out. 
You state:
“Support for Brexit was closely aligned in the minds of its voters with [1] a return to an economy of domestic industrial production, and [2] to a drastic reduction in the historically unprecedented levels of inward migration to which the British political class had committed itself.”
You left out the promise of millions for the NHS. 
You’re correct re 2 – stopping immigration of course was a big part of the appeal of Brexit alright (exhibit 1, Farage’s BNP-style poster); but aspect 1- returning to an essentially closed economy and turning away from international trade – you’re just making that up to suit the rest of your screed. 
Contrary to what you suggest, a Vote Leave statement two weeks before the Referendum stated:
“After we vote Leave, we would immediately be able to start negotiating new trade deals with emerging economies and the world’s biggest economies (the US, China and Japan, as well as Canada, Australia, South Korea, New Zealand and so on), which could enter into force immediately after the UK leaves the EU.”), which could enter into force immediately after the UK leaves the EU.”

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

To help you get over your disappointment with the Brexit error, you are falling back on the excuse beloved of failed Communists and other assorted ideologues everywhere – “there’s nothing wrong with [Communism / Brexit], it’s just that it was *never implemented properly*.” 
But please, when running that default failed-ideologue line, stop fabricating base facts, and leaving others out. 
You state:
“Support for Brexit was closely aligned in the minds of its voters with [1] a return to an economy of domestic industrial production, and [2] to a drastic reduction in the historically unprecedented levels of inward migration to which the British political class had committed itself.”
You left out the promise of millions for the NHS. 
You’re correct re 2 – stopping immigration of course was a big part of the appeal of Brexit alright (exhibit 1, Farage’s BNP-style poster); but aspect 1- returning to an essentially closed economy and turning away from international trade – you’re just making that up to suit the rest of your screed. 
Contrary to what you suggest, a Vote Leave statement two weeks before the Referendum stated:
“After we vote Leave, we would immediately be able to start negotiating new trade deals with emerging economies and the world’s biggest economies (the US, China and Japan, as well as Canada, Australia, South Korea, New Zealand and so on), which could enter into force immediately after the UK leaves the EU.”), which could enter into force immediately after the UK leaves the EU.”

Jason Szostek
Jason Szostek
1 year ago

A tribe is maybe a few dozen families. These days that’s not very many people. That’s the group of people we naturally care about. To succeed, any political organisation bigger than that, has to deliver THE GOODS. While things were going great, people were happy to identify with the British Empire. The less it could deliver the subject, the less the subject cared about it. The fall has revealed the corporal rot and now no level of political organization can deliver the goods. Your Welsh nationalist couldn’t justify Wales to the average person. Most people care more about keeping their own lights and heat on than how their village is run. Politics have failed at every level but the chattering classes will still write tomes and wax poetic about their Britishness.

Jason Szostek
Jason Szostek
1 year ago

A tribe is maybe a few dozen families. These days that’s not very many people. That’s the group of people we naturally care about. To succeed, any political organisation bigger than that, has to deliver THE GOODS. While things were going great, people were happy to identify with the British Empire. The less it could deliver the subject, the less the subject cared about it. The fall has revealed the corporal rot and now no level of political organization can deliver the goods. Your Welsh nationalist couldn’t justify Wales to the average person. Most people care more about keeping their own lights and heat on than how their village is run. Politics have failed at every level but the chattering classes will still write tomes and wax poetic about their Britishness.

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago

Yes. This is exactly why I opposed Brexit. I understood that a well delivered Brexit could be amazing, but that we were not going to get that I knew they would never deliver their promises, for all the reasons you state here. In fact it’s worse than j feared. Immigration has skyrocketed yet we still don’t have the workers we need. Zero investment in training. Cost of living out of control. NHS barely functional, despite the mythical “£350k a week.”
But people keep voting for these. I was aghast that people actually listened to Gardenbridge Johnson and put faith jn him.

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
1 year ago

Yes. This is exactly why I opposed Brexit. I understood that a well delivered Brexit could be amazing, but that we were not going to get that I knew they would never deliver their promises, for all the reasons you state here. In fact it’s worse than j feared. Immigration has skyrocketed yet we still don’t have the workers we need. Zero investment in training. Cost of living out of control. NHS barely functional, despite the mythical “£350k a week.”
But people keep voting for these. I was aghast that people actually listened to Gardenbridge Johnson and put faith jn him.

Mark epperson
Mark epperson
1 year ago

The precepts of this piece could apply to the EU and the United States. All have the most inept, greedy, and soulless leaders in modern history. But you must add senior bureaucrats to the list as both have been bought off by the “elites” and will continue to do their bidding until they are removed by the electoral process or by a civil revolution. It will be a close-run thing as it seems to me that the internet and social media have created ‘individuals” who no longer recognize the value of a community working together for the benefit of all and that compromise is essential. They are more focused on the next latte, Twitter post, and seem to have the attention span of a gnat. with no concern for the hard-working folks who can’t afford a daily latte or a $1300 iPhone. They retreat to their “pods” where they can feel good, and safe, and not encounter any views other than their pods. Not only are these folks. humanitarian hypocrites, they are boring as hell. Good luck to all in 20232!

Mark epperson
Mark epperson
1 year ago

The precepts of this piece could apply to the EU and the United States. All have the most inept, greedy, and soulless leaders in modern history. But you must add senior bureaucrats to the list as both have been bought off by the “elites” and will continue to do their bidding until they are removed by the electoral process or by a civil revolution. It will be a close-run thing as it seems to me that the internet and social media have created ‘individuals” who no longer recognize the value of a community working together for the benefit of all and that compromise is essential. They are more focused on the next latte, Twitter post, and seem to have the attention span of a gnat. with no concern for the hard-working folks who can’t afford a daily latte or a $1300 iPhone. They retreat to their “pods” where they can feel good, and safe, and not encounter any views other than their pods. Not only are these folks. humanitarian hypocrites, they are boring as hell. Good luck to all in 20232!

James Morton
James Morton
1 year ago

Exactly why I voted for Brexit. To take the Brussels excuse away from Westminster. And Whitehall. It’s worked a treat. What has happened since shows has shown how badly we need something new.

James Morton
James Morton
1 year ago

Exactly why I voted for Brexit. To take the Brussels excuse away from Westminster. And Whitehall. It’s worked a treat. What has happened since shows has shown how badly we need something new.

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
1 year ago

The price that Britain paid for helping to win WWII and save the world from Nazism has always been understated, in order to hide how weak Britain was in 1945 and to allow it to play a role as one of the five permanent members pf the Security Council of the UN. Britain’s inability to use its nuclear weapons independent of the US is the ultimate expression of this.

David Fülöp
David Fülöp
1 year ago

The USA does not control the UK’s nuclear arsenal. This is a myth ( in detail: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-america-doesnt-control-britains-nuclear-weapons/#comments ).

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  David Fülöp

I doubt very much if the Pentagon would allow us to execute a unilateral nuclear strike, more’s the pity!

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

That’s funny, and true.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

That’s funny, and true.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  David Fülöp

I doubt very much if the Pentagon would allow us to execute a unilateral nuclear strike, more’s the pity!

David Fülöp
David Fülöp
1 year ago

The USA does not control the UK’s nuclear arsenal. This is a myth ( in detail: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-america-doesnt-control-britains-nuclear-weapons/#comments ).

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
1 year ago

The price that Britain paid for helping to win WWII and save the world from Nazism has always been understated, in order to hide how weak Britain was in 1945 and to allow it to play a role as one of the five permanent members pf the Security Council of the UN. Britain’s inability to use its nuclear weapons independent of the US is the ultimate expression of this.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

“before the nation dissolves itself with an affected smirk of enlightened tolerance.”
What a beautiful line and how apt. And so many comments here to help it come true.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

“before the nation dissolves itself with an affected smirk of enlightened tolerance.”
What a beautiful line and how apt. And so many comments here to help it come true.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

Sometime ago there was talk about people adapting to the changing workplace, to move sideways, or learn new skills: I think it was called reinventing oneself. That’s what countries need to do. It has to be done alone and it has to be based on experience and skills, which you might call history and tradition, and the people themselves. It’s basically evolution: adapt or die. No one knows what, as Darwin said, the best fit for the future will be. A small country like England with a large population could manage it. Like a corporation head-hunting for a CEO to take the reins you’ll need to search far and wide for such a person. They may not even be English. But they will be a strong, driven individual. They won’t be found in public service offices or even in Westminster. But first of all you’ll need to hire a headhunter. But I know what will happen when this new CEO arrives on his first day: he’ll fire everybody connected with the past.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

Sometime ago there was talk about people adapting to the changing workplace, to move sideways, or learn new skills: I think it was called reinventing oneself. That’s what countries need to do. It has to be done alone and it has to be based on experience and skills, which you might call history and tradition, and the people themselves. It’s basically evolution: adapt or die. No one knows what, as Darwin said, the best fit for the future will be. A small country like England with a large population could manage it. Like a corporation head-hunting for a CEO to take the reins you’ll need to search far and wide for such a person. They may not even be English. But they will be a strong, driven individual. They won’t be found in public service offices or even in Westminster. But first of all you’ll need to hire a headhunter. But I know what will happen when this new CEO arrives on his first day: he’ll fire everybody connected with the past.

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago

The current crop of pretend conservatives have always been anti Brexit and the reason we are not gleaning the benefits from Brerxith is because the politicians who are our servants are not doing what they are paid to do they are working against us and co9nspiring with the EU to undermine everything we want and need , treason in fact , I don’t know what else to call it in all honesty .

paul castle
paul castle
1 year ago

The current crop of pretend conservatives have always been anti Brexit and the reason we are not gleaning the benefits from Brerxith is because the politicians who are our servants are not doing what they are paid to do they are working against us and co9nspiring with the EU to undermine everything we want and need , treason in fact , I don’t know what else to call it in all honesty .

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago

The British governing elite is now incapable of providing effective governance for a small archipelago off the NW Coast of Europe, despite the resources of a civil service larger than the service which governed the greatest Empire in history.

This is because it draws many of its people from an educational system which instills above all, entitlement and does nothing to instill competence or duty.

My late father was given to the opinion that returning troops should have marched to Eton, Harrow and Winchester, razed them to the ground and hanged anyone found in the vicinity from the nearest lamp-post so t hat the country could never again be governed by such people

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago

The British governing elite is now incapable of providing effective governance for a small archipelago off the NW Coast of Europe, despite the resources of a civil service larger than the service which governed the greatest Empire in history.

This is because it draws many of its people from an educational system which instills above all, entitlement and does nothing to instill competence or duty.

My late father was given to the opinion that returning troops should have marched to Eton, Harrow and Winchester, razed them to the ground and hanged anyone found in the vicinity from the nearest lamp-post so t hat the country could never again be governed by such people

Jonas Moze
Jonas Moze
1 year ago

There were a lot of words in the article, or opinion, , or essay, or what ever it was, but I have no idea what they meant. This line caught my attention though.

”Britain’s governing class has reduced the country to a powerless factotum of America’s global empire, and the degree to which such total self-abnegation of sovereignty is presented and experienced, not as a humiliation fetish but as the natural order of things, and the bedrock of Britain’s security.”

This is a thing you do because you fetishistize the NHS. You Brits think the NHS what is what is the best of Britain – that it is the base which supports the nation, it is the Mother and you its children. How you banged your pots to it on Thursdays, like some millions of Church Bells…..

”To have been born an Englishman (With the NHS) was to have ‘drawn the greatest prize in the lottery of life’.” you feel

But like an addiction to any substance or thing which abuses you and financially cripples you, the NHS is the enabler of your decay.

It is like this…. USA has the greatest military the world has ever known. The EU, and UK, hide under its umbrella, you are Biden’s Bi* ches, because USA spends a larger part of its GDP than anywhere on earth, many times over, to have that Military. What this means is American Health is Private funded – the normal person spends vast amounts on private health insurance that their taxes many fund this Massive Military.

UK chose to have a small and weak military so that the NHS be free at point of use. That was your Faustian bargain. Be weak and dependent in a scary world that you can have a NHS free to all? Or have a Powerful Military – which your history, pride, global position, security, and National Interest Require?

You, like every country in Europe, selected Nationalized Medicine to be your national priority. You gave up the ability to hold your head up in the harsh tables at the world conferences – that you may have this Bureaucratic Leviathan of the NHS, which totally abuses you, but you cannot leave because you still love it.

No 4% to the Military like USA, but a fudged 2%, really 1% made on paper to seem the agreed 2% which no one else in NATO does either.

AND SO – – – it is no Westminster Lie – it is there for all to see – instead of a strong solider to protect you you want nurse to cling to. And so you are what you chose – enjoy your video conference with the gp in 3 weeks, and the 14 hour ambulance wait….haha

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Interesting comment. A deserved attack on complacency.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

A little generous I think. It’s a fair point about how the USA has been the guarantor – and funder – of European peace since WW2, but I resent the implication that everyone in Britain is an ungrateful and ignorant recipient of the benefit, instead worshipping at the alter of the NHS. This would have been nonsense even before the pandemic made it impossible to ignore the truth about our particular version of socialised healthcare – now it is fast becoming the new national conversation.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

A little generous I think. It’s a fair point about how the USA has been the guarantor – and funder – of European peace since WW2, but I resent the implication that everyone in Britain is an ungrateful and ignorant recipient of the benefit, instead worshipping at the alter of the NHS. This would have been nonsense even before the pandemic made it impossible to ignore the truth about our particular version of socialised healthcare – now it is fast becoming the new national conversation.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

This misses a fairly obvious point. Britain is not big or rich enough any more to be anything but weak. As a Danish minister put it: “There are two kinds of countries in Europe: Those that are too small to make it big alone in the world – and those that have not figured it out yet.” Who would that big strong military fight? Rearguard actions in the ex-colonies? For what? France, Germany or Spain? To what end? Russia? Britain is too far way and too weak to do that alone without its European allies. Playing the big-power game alone around the world in competition with the US, Russia and China? Are you joking?

That still leaves the problem of getting to a role and sense of self that fits a medium-sized power on the islands off Europe. But you need to start from where you are, not with stirring and martial dreams about strong soldiers making you important in the world.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Really, just who do you think we need to wage with with a ‘Powerful Military’?
We could never wage war with the USA, who certainly are not our ally, they are our hegemonic master. I’m not totally convinced that anyone is gagging for war in Flanders again anytime soon. And gallivanting around the world invading weak nations just to get a military hard-on is the height of pathetic bullying cowardice.
The people who bully us around the world are the Americans, mostly. They want to get their hands on our healthcare system, so they can impose their own criminal system over here. If you even try to claim that the USA healthcare system is effective, honest, patient-centred then you are terminally afflicted with lying diplomat syndrome.

Michael Daniele
Michael Daniele
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

I’ve found it to be very effective for me and pretty much everyone I know. A co-worker who moved here from England told me his daughter would be dead if the head trauma she suffered here had happened there. She was air lifted from NH to Mass General in Boston and was saved.
So I guess it’s not quite one size fits all.

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
1 year ago

How much did the unfortunate daughter’s treatment cost?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

The insurance company will know.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

The insurance company will know.

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
1 year ago

How much did the unfortunate daughter’s treatment cost?

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

“the Americans … want to get their hands on our healthcare system” 
These comments keep confirming the unrealistic image England has of itself. It’s gone from being amusing to being quite sad. Though it’s hard to have any sympathy when they keep insisting they’re the mighty nation they once were, and even then the empire was great because everyone else was so weak.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Oh I must retort, sorry Brett, American monied tentacles have crept into our universities, our government and politics, our pharma, our banks etc. If you would like sourced examples, I am happy to provide a very long list. Normally it is classed as ‘philanthropy’, something else America stole from us and then distorted and ruined.
We are a mighty nation. America wishes it was as cool as us.
Land of hope and glory.
I am smug in our history of being the little island that gets stuff done against the odds. Like building an empire. Or the world’s greatest navy. Or the industrial revolution. Or pulling off the d day landings. Or Glastonbury. Just our great musicians in general. Or the great minds outta Oxford and Cambridge, some of the oldest and best in the world monty python crew for example. Or inventing rugby and cricket. Or being the first country to use electricity. Or the telephone. Or television. Or radio. Did we do the Internet as well? Graphene, Dyson, DNA profiling, computers and some very important computer processors, the inigma machine. The best code breakers in the world at Bletchley. Text messaging, wind up radios, cloning, gene editing, thrust holds the land speed record still I believe, some of the best drivers in the world, top gear, Aston Martin, rolls Royce, Caterham, Harry Potter, Tolkien, James bond. We invented bungee jumping, the SAS. The fastest out of covid lockdowns. We have an experimental nuclear fission reactor pretty sure that’s been helping the science world. Boris was a massive hit in Ukraine. British engineering is still pretty well respected, we work for a few big engineering firms, there’s a fair few about doing some really specialised stuff. Interestingly, on the subject, three we work for have been bought by the same American. He’s nice, good to work for, but very, very flash. Like very gold BMW flash. Not like the British guys he’s bought it off. JCB theres another one. I could probably run another two paragraphs at least. I think we are doing well for now.
I am aware I’m being obnoxiously british. But what else is there. It may be our turn to sit a bit more quietly on the peripherals for a while, but no one can deny we have been busy, we are still mighty. MIGHTY. I’ll put my flag back away now.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Yes, as a nation you certainly have been busy. And I would happily add my own to your list, though it would still be from the past. To be honest, one of my lifelong pleasures has been needling the Brits. But nothing that impresses me has come out of England in a long time. However I could also say that about America and France. Something has happened and I don’t know what it is. But l don’t believe looking to the past will help. It’s easy to seek an answer, some explanation in some event, like Brexit. But I don’t think there’s any answer in that. The whole Brexit thing is just another symptom. A few hours ago I made a comment about reinventing ourselves. The comment wasn’t put together very well (if I was being graded I’d try harder, or being paid) but it’s something I’m slowly coming to. And that is that Democracy is no longer able to do the job. That doesn’t mean I want Socialism, but we’re not getting anywhere trying the same thing over and over and still not getting anywhere. No one seems to have responded to my comment, maybe out of distaste or maybe because they think it’s absurd. But seriously, why must the leader of a country come from within the country? Why not just hire the best and hire that person to reach a set of agreed objectives. Reinvention, creativity, daring is all we have and what do we have to lose?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

I’m still a believer in the British democratic system, brexit honestly proved to me it still works. We had a grassroots political movement with ukip. We did get a referendum. Eventually we will get brexit. No one in Britain with a sensible head thought it would be quick or easy. Fundamentally I think brexit was a vote against the encroachment of big government and the corruption it can bring. It was for me anyway. Tick for democracy so far. If we don’t get brexit properly the half that did vote for it are not going to be happy. They will vote to reflect that. Farage will have a resurgence eventually if they long it out.
On the contrary, we have everything to loose. Our system isn’t perfect, it’s got its own set of issues but by and large it still fulfills its function. We have a broad range of characters in our house of commons and that’s how it should be. It’s took literally hundreds of years to develop our democracy, it would be slightly foolish to tear it down in the absence of a better idea. I’m really yet to hear a better one myself. I think our history proves by and large actually it’s not a bad system, we don’t do too badly. We even had corbyn as labour party leader, he really did have some edgy ideas. All this is good, sometimes it’s good to shake it up. No love for corbyn myself but he certainly was either out of the, or off his, box. But you can’t say all views don’t get heard. Now we are facing some strange times and our democracy will be tested. I am very hopeful (although not complacent) it could stand up to the challenge. At the moment I’ll admit I am personally very unhappy about boris getting back stabbed. Obviously there have been some major f*** ups, I’m not a perfectionist though I think it’s inevitable shit happens. You only learn by making mistakes. It’s not a bad thing we have seen more people out striking and protesting, like the anti lockdown protests, the truckers, the Dutch farmers, Frances yellow jackets. This is how democracy works best, something goes wrong, like covid, or ukraine, systems are tested, in ways they haven’t been for a long time really, people are more interested in politics because it has had a massive impact on their daily lives in a way politics hasn’t done in the west some time. This is a good signal to governments everywhere to get their arses in gear and pull their socks up in a way they probably haven’t had to for while. So I am hopeful still for British democracy. Its just had a big kick up the arse the whole system. It must have took some effort to crank the Westminster system into energetic life to deal with covid. They even shut their bar for a bit I think I read 🙂
Its not about ‘hiring the best’ it’s about people doing it because they believe in what they are doing. It’s about that person understanding the needs of the country they govern and the mindset of the people. Now that’s asking a lot of anyone. We have to understand this job isn’t easy, we can’t expect people to make 100% correct decisions. That is the value of putting policy to collective vote. Still not perfect, but perfection is not achievable. Understanding government and politics is different to understanding business to an extent. Businesses make clear cut decisions based on facts, figures, real world stuff. Politics does have to deal with administering the real world, but also has to deal with idealogy, matters that aren’t clear cut, sometimes in politics nothing is clear cut, sometimes there is no wrong or right answer. Also how would you then decide that set of objectives? Who decides who gets hired?
Sorry its a long answer but I tried to do justice to your question in my own way. I need to work on concise. 🙂

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Just to reply to one part of your comment:

“It’s about that person understanding the needs of the country they govern and the mindset of the people.”

I envisage a political party, existing or new, that spends maybe a year or so assessing the country, the people, what they want, what’s important to them, etc. That’s their first policy statement, that they will do that and that only. They’ll reveal what they’ve found. Then they’ll write a new policy based on what they found. This will be their position as a party. If the voter supports them enough they’ll gain a majority. Then they act. Their policy will make it clear about how they’ll operate, how they’ll look for someone to manage their policy. I imagine the first step would be to reduce debt and dependency. The person chosen to lead will have a record of success in the area of debt. Assuming that’s achieved then the leader will be replaced by someone with experience and success in the next phase.

Sounds insane maybe. But the future is a long time and as much as I respect what traditional Democracy has done for us it isn’t anymore.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Just to reply to one part of your comment:

“It’s about that person understanding the needs of the country they govern and the mindset of the people.”

I envisage a political party, existing or new, that spends maybe a year or so assessing the country, the people, what they want, what’s important to them, etc. That’s their first policy statement, that they will do that and that only. They’ll reveal what they’ve found. Then they’ll write a new policy based on what they found. This will be their position as a party. If the voter supports them enough they’ll gain a majority. Then they act. Their policy will make it clear about how they’ll operate, how they’ll look for someone to manage their policy. I imagine the first step would be to reduce debt and dependency. The person chosen to lead will have a record of success in the area of debt. Assuming that’s achieved then the leader will be replaced by someone with experience and success in the next phase.

Sounds insane maybe. But the future is a long time and as much as I respect what traditional Democracy has done for us it isn’t anymore.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

I’m still a believer in the British democratic system, brexit honestly proved to me it still works. We had a grassroots political movement with ukip. We did get a referendum. Eventually we will get brexit. No one in Britain with a sensible head thought it would be quick or easy. Fundamentally I think brexit was a vote against the encroachment of big government and the corruption it can bring. It was for me anyway. Tick for democracy so far. If we don’t get brexit properly the half that did vote for it are not going to be happy. They will vote to reflect that. Farage will have a resurgence eventually if they long it out.
On the contrary, we have everything to loose. Our system isn’t perfect, it’s got its own set of issues but by and large it still fulfills its function. We have a broad range of characters in our house of commons and that’s how it should be. It’s took literally hundreds of years to develop our democracy, it would be slightly foolish to tear it down in the absence of a better idea. I’m really yet to hear a better one myself. I think our history proves by and large actually it’s not a bad system, we don’t do too badly. We even had corbyn as labour party leader, he really did have some edgy ideas. All this is good, sometimes it’s good to shake it up. No love for corbyn myself but he certainly was either out of the, or off his, box. But you can’t say all views don’t get heard. Now we are facing some strange times and our democracy will be tested. I am very hopeful (although not complacent) it could stand up to the challenge. At the moment I’ll admit I am personally very unhappy about boris getting back stabbed. Obviously there have been some major f*** ups, I’m not a perfectionist though I think it’s inevitable shit happens. You only learn by making mistakes. It’s not a bad thing we have seen more people out striking and protesting, like the anti lockdown protests, the truckers, the Dutch farmers, Frances yellow jackets. This is how democracy works best, something goes wrong, like covid, or ukraine, systems are tested, in ways they haven’t been for a long time really, people are more interested in politics because it has had a massive impact on their daily lives in a way politics hasn’t done in the west some time. This is a good signal to governments everywhere to get their arses in gear and pull their socks up in a way they probably haven’t had to for while. So I am hopeful still for British democracy. Its just had a big kick up the arse the whole system. It must have took some effort to crank the Westminster system into energetic life to deal with covid. They even shut their bar for a bit I think I read 🙂
Its not about ‘hiring the best’ it’s about people doing it because they believe in what they are doing. It’s about that person understanding the needs of the country they govern and the mindset of the people. Now that’s asking a lot of anyone. We have to understand this job isn’t easy, we can’t expect people to make 100% correct decisions. That is the value of putting policy to collective vote. Still not perfect, but perfection is not achievable. Understanding government and politics is different to understanding business to an extent. Businesses make clear cut decisions based on facts, figures, real world stuff. Politics does have to deal with administering the real world, but also has to deal with idealogy, matters that aren’t clear cut, sometimes in politics nothing is clear cut, sometimes there is no wrong or right answer. Also how would you then decide that set of objectives? Who decides who gets hired?
Sorry its a long answer but I tried to do justice to your question in my own way. I need to work on concise. 🙂

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Yes, as a nation you certainly have been busy. And I would happily add my own to your list, though it would still be from the past. To be honest, one of my lifelong pleasures has been needling the Brits. But nothing that impresses me has come out of England in a long time. However I could also say that about America and France. Something has happened and I don’t know what it is. But l don’t believe looking to the past will help. It’s easy to seek an answer, some explanation in some event, like Brexit. But I don’t think there’s any answer in that. The whole Brexit thing is just another symptom. A few hours ago I made a comment about reinventing ourselves. The comment wasn’t put together very well (if I was being graded I’d try harder, or being paid) but it’s something I’m slowly coming to. And that is that Democracy is no longer able to do the job. That doesn’t mean I want Socialism, but we’re not getting anywhere trying the same thing over and over and still not getting anywhere. No one seems to have responded to my comment, maybe out of distaste or maybe because they think it’s absurd. But seriously, why must the leader of a country come from within the country? Why not just hire the best and hire that person to reach a set of agreed objectives. Reinvention, creativity, daring is all we have and what do we have to lose?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Oh I must retort, sorry Brett, American monied tentacles have crept into our universities, our government and politics, our pharma, our banks etc. If you would like sourced examples, I am happy to provide a very long list. Normally it is classed as ‘philanthropy’, something else America stole from us and then distorted and ruined.
We are a mighty nation. America wishes it was as cool as us.
Land of hope and glory.
I am smug in our history of being the little island that gets stuff done against the odds. Like building an empire. Or the world’s greatest navy. Or the industrial revolution. Or pulling off the d day landings. Or Glastonbury. Just our great musicians in general. Or the great minds outta Oxford and Cambridge, some of the oldest and best in the world monty python crew for example. Or inventing rugby and cricket. Or being the first country to use electricity. Or the telephone. Or television. Or radio. Did we do the Internet as well? Graphene, Dyson, DNA profiling, computers and some very important computer processors, the inigma machine. The best code breakers in the world at Bletchley. Text messaging, wind up radios, cloning, gene editing, thrust holds the land speed record still I believe, some of the best drivers in the world, top gear, Aston Martin, rolls Royce, Caterham, Harry Potter, Tolkien, James bond. We invented bungee jumping, the SAS. The fastest out of covid lockdowns. We have an experimental nuclear fission reactor pretty sure that’s been helping the science world. Boris was a massive hit in Ukraine. British engineering is still pretty well respected, we work for a few big engineering firms, there’s a fair few about doing some really specialised stuff. Interestingly, on the subject, three we work for have been bought by the same American. He’s nice, good to work for, but very, very flash. Like very gold BMW flash. Not like the British guys he’s bought it off. JCB theres another one. I could probably run another two paragraphs at least. I think we are doing well for now.
I am aware I’m being obnoxiously british. But what else is there. It may be our turn to sit a bit more quietly on the peripherals for a while, but no one can deny we have been busy, we are still mighty. MIGHTY. I’ll put my flag back away now.

Michael Daniele
Michael Daniele
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

I’ve found it to be very effective for me and pretty much everyone I know. A co-worker who moved here from England told me his daughter would be dead if the head trauma she suffered here had happened there. She was air lifted from NH to Mass General in Boston and was saved.
So I guess it’s not quite one size fits all.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

“the Americans … want to get their hands on our healthcare system” 
These comments keep confirming the unrealistic image England has of itself. It’s gone from being amusing to being quite sad. Though it’s hard to have any sympathy when they keep insisting they’re the mighty nation they once were, and even then the empire was great because everyone else was so weak.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

You are correct to highlight the fact that ‘we’ regard our subservience to the USA as part of the “natural order of things”, when in fact it obscures the truth that, thanks to our own staggering incompetence, we have suffered the greatest humiliation ever in British history. Even the dreaded NHS is no compensation for this global catastrophe.
However I also doubt very much if Cecil Rhodes would have been a fan of the NHS, although he was undoubtedly correct when he said “to be born an Englishman was to have drawn the greatest prize in the lottery of life”. Fortunately, it still is.
Where Mr Roussinos is in error is that we were in a far worse position in say 1946 when we were begging for US largesse or in 1972 when we were grovelling to get into the EEC or Common Market* as we then called it!

(*The current European Union of EU for US readers)

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

“to be born an Englishman was to have drawn the greatest prize in the lottery of life”. Fortunately, it still is.”
Why?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

I would have thought that was self evident, but mindful of the adage “self praise is NO recommendation “ I can say no more.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

No, it’s not self evident at all. But I’d be happy to hear why.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Mr Shakespeare put it far better than I don’t you think?

“This royal throne of kings, this sceptered isle, This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, This other Eden, demi-paradise, This fortress built by Nature for herself Against infection and the hand of war, This happy breed of men, this little world, This precious stone set in the silver sea, Which serves it in the office of a wall Or as a moat defensive to a house, Against the envy of less happier lands,–This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.”

Additionally off course there was the birth of the Industrial Revolution ( the greater event in Human History bar none!) in Cornwall, of all places, around 1709!

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

How appropriate that many have such a tin ear for our heritage!

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I might add to my reply to Charles, that you cannot live on your past. Many assess the USA from a distance and view it totally different from its inhabitants, not always kindly. England, also viewed from a distance, does look a little shabby and is nowhere near being the “sceptered isle” it was.

Last edited 1 year ago by Brett H
Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I might add to my reply to Charles, that you cannot live on your past. Many assess the USA from a distance and view it totally different from its inhabitants, not always kindly. England, also viewed from a distance, does look a little shabby and is nowhere near being the “sceptered isle” it was.

Last edited 1 year ago by Brett H
Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

Of course you are right about these things. But if I wasn’t being clear let me be now;
“was to have drawn the greatest prize in the lottery of life”
The operative word there is “was”. It’s a shame but from the outside England is now none of the things that made you great. There are many comments here that suggest they think England is still that mighty country but from a distance you are not. So you are resting on your laurels. It’s gone.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Not quite “gone” although I must agree it is currently rather a shabby sight!

You may have noticed that I have been a fairly vociferous critic of the way GB plc has been run since at least 1914, and we certainly only have ourselves to blame.

However with the recent Brexit Vote, close as it was, I feel we may have a slim chance of at least slowing our inevitable decline. If ‘we’ fail at least we can say we tried!

It is off course, very depressing that the ‘Remainers’ got nearly 50% of the vote, and would happily surrender us to Europe and its odious system of Civil Law. They are, to put it politely Oikophobes or Oiks* (for short). Ones who hate their own culture, home & hearth, for some inexplicable reason. I gather ‘you’ also have o quite a few of them.

Fortunately the other 50%+ are made of sterner stuff and rejoice in the fact that we (like your good selves) live under a system of Common Law that has evolved over centuries of trial and error.

So perhaps we shall stagger on rather as Rome did after 476 AD, secure in the knowledge that we have made an indelible mark on history out of all proportion to our size and remote geographical location.

In conclusion I must say for many of us it is still a wonderful place to live, warts and all!

(* From the Ancient Greek.)

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

That’s a very long reply for you Charles. I feel honoured.

Last edited 1 year ago by Brett H
Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

That’s a very long reply for you Charles. I feel honoured.

Last edited 1 year ago by Brett H
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Not quite “gone” although I must agree it is currently rather a shabby sight!

You may have noticed that I have been a fairly vociferous critic of the way GB plc has been run since at least 1914, and we certainly only have ourselves to blame.

However with the recent Brexit Vote, close as it was, I feel we may have a slim chance of at least slowing our inevitable decline. If ‘we’ fail at least we can say we tried!

It is off course, very depressing that the ‘Remainers’ got nearly 50% of the vote, and would happily surrender us to Europe and its odious system of Civil Law. They are, to put it politely Oikophobes or Oiks* (for short). Ones who hate their own culture, home & hearth, for some inexplicable reason. I gather ‘you’ also have o quite a few of them.

Fortunately the other 50%+ are made of sterner stuff and rejoice in the fact that we (like your good selves) live under a system of Common Law that has evolved over centuries of trial and error.

So perhaps we shall stagger on rather as Rome did after 476 AD, secure in the knowledge that we have made an indelible mark on history out of all proportion to our size and remote geographical location.

In conclusion I must say for many of us it is still a wonderful place to live, warts and all!

(* From the Ancient Greek.)

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

How appropriate that many have such a tin ear for our heritage!

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

Of course you are right about these things. But if I wasn’t being clear let me be now;
“was to have drawn the greatest prize in the lottery of life”
The operative word there is “was”. It’s a shame but from the outside England is now none of the things that made you great. There are many comments here that suggest they think England is still that mighty country but from a distance you are not. So you are resting on your laurels. It’s gone.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Mr Shakespeare put it far better than I don’t you think?

“This royal throne of kings, this sceptered isle, This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, This other Eden, demi-paradise, This fortress built by Nature for herself Against infection and the hand of war, This happy breed of men, this little world, This precious stone set in the silver sea, Which serves it in the office of a wall Or as a moat defensive to a house, Against the envy of less happier lands,–This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.”

Additionally off course there was the birth of the Industrial Revolution ( the greater event in Human History bar none!) in Cornwall, of all places, around 1709!

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

No, it’s not self evident at all. But I’d be happy to hear why.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

It’s entirely subjective… especially if you’re a subject.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Subject to what?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Subjectivity.
I’m “pulling your leg”, if that’s a phrase understood by HM subjects?

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Subject to living in the past.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Subject to living in the past.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

Subjectivity.
I’m “pulling your leg”, if that’s a phrase understood by HM subjects?

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Subject to what?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

I would have thought that was self evident, but mindful of the adage “self praise is NO recommendation “ I can say no more.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Brett H

It’s entirely subjective… especially if you’re a subject.

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago

“to be born an Englishman was to have drawn the greatest prize in the lottery of life”. Fortunately, it still is.”
Why?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

“USA has the greatest military the world has ever known.”

I really must dispute this claim. Whilst the US can certainly project enormous power can it similarly withstand enormous losses? I think not.

Could it for example survive three successive catastrophic defeats over three successive years such as the Trebia, Trasimene and Cannae? Certainly not on the evidence of say Vietnam where it LOST the will to win after a ‘mere’ 58,000 dead out of a population of over 250 million.

Are things any different today? If yes, why so?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

I agree with you. The USA has the “greatest” military in the present day, but ever known? I think not. The UK has a more plausible claim to this, most notably because of one unique achievement in human history: the eradication of slavery across much of the globe during the 18th and 19th centuries by use of the overwhelming force of the British Navy. The scale of global reach necessary to achieve this has not been equalled at any other time as far as I know. The US Navy does of course support America’s role as the world’s policeman at present, but the job these days is considerably easier so it doesn’t compare.
And it is important to recognise that this question really has to be answered in relative terms, so other militaries possessing this claim would certainly include the Roman and Mongol empires in previous times.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

I agree with you. The USA has the “greatest” military in the present day, but ever known? I think not. The UK has a more plausible claim to this, most notably because of one unique achievement in human history: the eradication of slavery across much of the globe during the 18th and 19th centuries by use of the overwhelming force of the British Navy. The scale of global reach necessary to achieve this has not been equalled at any other time as far as I know. The US Navy does of course support America’s role as the world’s policeman at present, but the job these days is considerably easier so it doesn’t compare.
And it is important to recognise that this question really has to be answered in relative terms, so other militaries possessing this claim would certainly include the Roman and Mongol empires in previous times.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Another point being missed is that the US health system is *hugely* inefficient. Some 2019 numbers for annual health spending per person are:
US $10900
[Switzerland and Scandinavia]
Germany $5400
[Various developed countries]
UK $4300

If the US switched over to a system like the NHS you would not only have better health, you would have more money left over for the military.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

And the cause of this gross US inefficiency?

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago

I have heard the argument that the profit-seeking and huge administrative cost associated with a for-profit health system jack up prices (being sick and in need of treatment puts you in a bad position for competitive shopping), but I would not know. Maybe someone else does?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

A very reasonable explanation, thank you.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

A very reasonable explanation, thank you.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago

I have heard the argument that the profit-seeking and huge administrative cost associated with a for-profit health system jack up prices (being sick and in need of treatment puts you in a bad position for competitive shopping), but I would not know. Maybe someone else does?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

This misses the point that the quality of medical care in the USA is considerably higher on average: they do get a fair bit more value for that expenditure. I’m not saying this rejects the inefficiency argument entirely, just that it is a factor that needs to be recognised.

As for this:
“If the US switched over to a system like the NHS you would not only have better health, you would have more money left over for the military.”

Really, has the reality of socialised medicine taught you nothing? It appears not, given the intellectually lazy reference to profit-seeking below: I can’t believe it needs explaining in a world where free markets have proved their ability to deliver lower prices, but the act of profit seeking is the principle method by which organisations control their costs. Just because it doesn’t work all the time doesn’t mean you can trot it out as a convenient throwaway remark in this context.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

This misses the point that the quality of medical care in the USA is considerably higher on average

Fair enough – even if it does seem to be considerably worse at the bottom.

Free markets do not seem to be providing much in the way of lower prices in US medicine, do they? Not surprising really. The system is for practical purposes similar to ‘cost+’ – the hospitals decide what needs to be done, the hospitals set the price, and you as a patient are not really in a position to override them – or to go elsewhere. Of course the system will be organised so as to extract the maximum amount of money for the minimum amount of effort. I am not a great fan of the NHS, specifically, other countries (with ‘socialised’ medicine) seem to do it better in many ways. But the US is not among them.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

“Free markets do not seem to be providing much in the way of lower prices in US medicine, do they?”

There isn’t a free market in US healthcare: it’s a cartel. The US system is just as much beholden to the producer interest as is the UK’s disastrous system, it just takes a different form.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

“Free markets do not seem to be providing much in the way of lower prices in US medicine, do they?”

There isn’t a free market in US healthcare: it’s a cartel. The US system is just as much beholden to the producer interest as is the UK’s disastrous system, it just takes a different form.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

This misses the point that the quality of medical care in the USA is considerably higher on average

Fair enough – even if it does seem to be considerably worse at the bottom.

Free markets do not seem to be providing much in the way of lower prices in US medicine, do they? Not surprising really. The system is for practical purposes similar to ‘cost+’ – the hospitals decide what needs to be done, the hospitals set the price, and you as a patient are not really in a position to override them – or to go elsewhere. Of course the system will be organised so as to extract the maximum amount of money for the minimum amount of effort. I am not a great fan of the NHS, specifically, other countries (with ‘socialised’ medicine) seem to do it better in many ways. But the US is not among them.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

And the cause of this gross US inefficiency?

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

This misses the point that the quality of medical care in the USA is considerably higher on average: they do get a fair bit more value for that expenditure. I’m not saying this rejects the inefficiency argument entirely, just that it is a factor that needs to be recognised.

As for this:
“If the US switched over to a system like the NHS you would not only have better health, you would have more money left over for the military.”

Really, has the reality of socialised medicine taught you nothing? It appears not, given the intellectually lazy reference to profit-seeking below: I can’t believe it needs explaining in a world where free markets have proved their ability to deliver lower prices, but the act of profit seeking is the principle method by which organisations control their costs. Just because it doesn’t work all the time doesn’t mean you can trot it out as a convenient throwaway remark in this context.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Sorry you feel, as an American, so put-upon by Europe and the rest of the world having chosen NOT to invest all our treasure in an all-consuming arms industry that eats its own population and demands ever-more conflict be settled by ever-more weaponry.
You see, I agree with you about addiction. Ours is the NHS – the attempt to optimise the health of the settled population by ensuring that nobody suffers unnecessary pain, sickness or death because of lack of money – while that of the USA is Defence. Itself equally a laudable enterprise – guaranteeing the freedom of its people to live their lives as they choose without risk of encountering brute force or coercion that would impose restrictions upon them, wherever in the world they choose to be.
Neither goal is fully achievable. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

No one here in the US goes without treatment for lack of money. It is against the law to turn anyone away at a hospital emergency room. There are countless programs in place for low-income people to utilize, often through family service agencies. The dumbest thing about our health care is much of it is attained through one’s job as part of a benefits package. This makes it difficult for self-employed people to find affordable plans, thanks largely to the HMO system that began in the 80s. My husband and I, both self-employed in the arts, knowing this to be the case, started our own medical savings account years ago. We have a high-deductible policy for major emergencies, and cash for yearly checkups, teeth, and eyes. And the great thing about that is we only spend money we use: it doesn’t sit in an insurance company pile for a “just in case” that mayn’t happen. Also, most doctors provide a sizable discount for paying cash, and we suffer no weird hidden charges, like aspirin for $20.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

No one here in the US goes without treatment for lack of money. It is against the law to turn anyone away at a hospital emergency room. There are countless programs in place for low-income people to utilize, often through family service agencies. The dumbest thing about our health care is much of it is attained through one’s job as part of a benefits package. This makes it difficult for self-employed people to find affordable plans, thanks largely to the HMO system that began in the 80s. My husband and I, both self-employed in the arts, knowing this to be the case, started our own medical savings account years ago. We have a high-deductible policy for major emergencies, and cash for yearly checkups, teeth, and eyes. And the great thing about that is we only spend money we use: it doesn’t sit in an insurance company pile for a “just in case” that mayn’t happen. Also, most doctors provide a sizable discount for paying cash, and we suffer no weird hidden charges, like aspirin for $20.

Kenny Harris
Kenny Harris
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Your comments are not accurate Britain always spent it’s allocated amount on the defence. We are a medium-size island, not threatened by anyone directly Overland America with its vast military and weapons industry has involved itself with unnecessary wars You know the ones I mean where they wanted regime change going right back to Korea and Vietnam then the Middle East then in South America, Also the Afghanistan a debacle, if I had my way I will would all the American bases in Britain to leave All we need is a compact army substantial navy and a nuclear deterrent which really we do have, The days of Britain trying to solve most of the worlds problems were long ago over America should follow suit.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Kenny Harris

Let me submit that keeping the communists out of South Korea was very much a worthwhile endeavour. Keeping them out of South Vietnam would have been positive too (they might be like South Korea now). The trouble is that since this was impossible, trying and failing at the cost of millions of dead was a horrible idea. Classically, a just war had to have, among other things, a reasonable prospect of success to justify the cost.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Kenny Harris

Let me submit that keeping the communists out of South Korea was very much a worthwhile endeavour. Keeping them out of South Vietnam would have been positive too (they might be like South Korea now). The trouble is that since this was impossible, trying and failing at the cost of millions of dead was a horrible idea. Classically, a just war had to have, among other things, a reasonable prospect of success to justify the cost.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Blimey, you really do hate free-at-point-of-need healthcare don’t you. Well it is certainly way more efficient and effective than the awful system in the US – worst infant mortality of any comparable nation etc etc. Anecdotal ‘evidence’ from everyone I know (the very rich excepted) who has had the misfortune to require medical treatment in the USA, even while ‘fully’ insured (ha ha) is just gobsmackingly eye-watering.

Maybe your military-industrial complex is just as corrupt and inefficient and if you sorted that out you also could spend 2% of GDP for the same result as your current 4%?

Jonas Moze
Jonas Moze
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Just having fun. I have written a great deal on my anti-NHS from a really bad time with them on how they handled my father when he was in his mid 90s and had dementia. I eventually had to go back to London, get him and bring him to my place in USA and keep him in my house under my care till he passed away.

The NHS were horrible – they are completely like we saw in covid – total authoritarian wile also being wrong about everything. Unfortunately in UK they have complete authority over the elderly and mandated massive amounts of Very Expensive home care visits by disinterested and incompetent workers. They required close to £900 a week! be spent on the foreign health care owned and staffed companies when I had, as had my sister, moved in to care for him ourselves – but they still required these incompetent people to be in our house – I had them sign in and leave – and Vast Cost – and when I said I was to fire them the NHS Said then Father would be removed to a Care home at £1000 a week!

F_ The NHS. Fas *ists little rats… the power they have in your own house is amazing – you saw it in covid – but that is how they are, F them. Do not trust them – they think their job is to employ immigrants and private companies for mandated home care and suck any inheritance out of the elderly – health care is secondary to their bureaucratic mission. That is why they are so bad at health care.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

I feel your pain, but you are conflating the NHS with the council run ‘social care’ system, which has been systematically destroyed by the Tory government of the last 12 years. They are disgracefully little connected

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

I feel your pain, but you are conflating the NHS with the council run ‘social care’ system, which has been systematically destroyed by the Tory government of the last 12 years. They are disgracefully little connected

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

I hate “free-at-point-of-need healthcare” too, and I speak as one who supposedly benefits from it here in the UK. It isn’t “free”: it costs me and everyone else a fortune in tax and then kills thousands of people a year through its inability to respond to demand. And when I say “demand” here I don’t refer to the dry economic concept but the real and immediate people-dying-waiting-for-an-ambulance kind of demand.

Socialised healthcare has been a disaster in the UK, and just because you can point at something arguably worse on the other side of the Atlantic doesn’t allow you to ignore the fact that there are literally dozens of well-regulated insurance-model healthcare systems elsewhere in the world that cost the same as the NHS and deliver far better outcomes. Frankly I hope 2023 is the year the NHS dinosaur finally goes extinct and is replaced with something that actually works.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Jonas Moze
Jonas Moze
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Just having fun. I have written a great deal on my anti-NHS from a really bad time with them on how they handled my father when he was in his mid 90s and had dementia. I eventually had to go back to London, get him and bring him to my place in USA and keep him in my house under my care till he passed away.

The NHS were horrible – they are completely like we saw in covid – total authoritarian wile also being wrong about everything. Unfortunately in UK they have complete authority over the elderly and mandated massive amounts of Very Expensive home care visits by disinterested and incompetent workers. They required close to £900 a week! be spent on the foreign health care owned and staffed companies when I had, as had my sister, moved in to care for him ourselves – but they still required these incompetent people to be in our house – I had them sign in and leave – and Vast Cost – and when I said I was to fire them the NHS Said then Father would be removed to a Care home at £1000 a week!

F_ The NHS. Fas *ists little rats… the power they have in your own house is amazing – you saw it in covid – but that is how they are, F them. Do not trust them – they think their job is to employ immigrants and private companies for mandated home care and suck any inheritance out of the elderly – health care is secondary to their bureaucratic mission. That is why they are so bad at health care.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

I hate “free-at-point-of-need healthcare” too, and I speak as one who supposedly benefits from it here in the UK. It isn’t “free”: it costs me and everyone else a fortune in tax and then kills thousands of people a year through its inability to respond to demand. And when I say “demand” here I don’t refer to the dry economic concept but the real and immediate people-dying-waiting-for-an-ambulance kind of demand.

Socialised healthcare has been a disaster in the UK, and just because you can point at something arguably worse on the other side of the Atlantic doesn’t allow you to ignore the fact that there are literally dozens of well-regulated insurance-model healthcare systems elsewhere in the world that cost the same as the NHS and deliver far better outcomes. Frankly I hope 2023 is the year the NHS dinosaur finally goes extinct and is replaced with something that actually works.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Pity that about 90% of the ~$1trillion annual spend on defence is wasted. Pork barrel politics funding worthless over designed equipment and systems. Much of the so-called capital kit is so expensive that they couldn’t risk losing any of it in battle(s). Those aircraft carriers better stay at least 2,000 kms away from China when the conflict over Taiwan comes. Otherwise they won’t last 24 hrs against China’s unstoppable hypersonic carrier killers. Then we have the mindless new B21 which will cost nearly $1trillion apiece – if they ever fly.
Then there’s the vast bureaucracy of the Pentagon and the Defence Dept with nearly as many generals and miscellaneous bureaucrats as front line soldiers – who, of course, must be woke.
Then there’s the massive military pensions bill.
Funny how with all that 4% of GDP, the almighty US of A ran away from Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan with it’s ‘tail between it’s legs’. And that against enemies largely equipped with AK47s and a few IEDs.
Pathetic, absolutely pathetic.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

When were you released from Broadmoor Mr Branagan?

( The major UK “ loony bin” for US readers.)

Jonas Moze
Jonas Moze
1 year ago

haha

Jonas Moze
Jonas Moze
1 year ago

haha

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

When were you released from Broadmoor Mr Branagan?

( The major UK “ loony bin” for US readers.)

Brett H
Brett H
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Interesting comment. A deserved attack on complacency.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

This misses a fairly obvious point. Britain is not big or rich enough any more to be anything but weak. As a Danish minister put it: “There are two kinds of countries in Europe: Those that are too small to make it big alone in the world – and those that have not figured it out yet.” Who would that big strong military fight? Rearguard actions in the ex-colonies? For what? France, Germany or Spain? To what end? Russia? Britain is too far way and too weak to do that alone without its European allies. Playing the big-power game alone around the world in competition with the US, Russia and China? Are you joking?

That still leaves the problem of getting to a role and sense of self that fits a medium-sized power on the islands off Europe. But you need to start from where you are, not with stirring and martial dreams about strong soldiers making you important in the world.

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Really, just who do you think we need to wage with with a ‘Powerful Military’?
We could never wage war with the USA, who certainly are not our ally, they are our hegemonic master. I’m not totally convinced that anyone is gagging for war in Flanders again anytime soon. And gallivanting around the world invading weak nations just to get a military hard-on is the height of pathetic bullying cowardice.
The people who bully us around the world are the Americans, mostly. They want to get their hands on our healthcare system, so they can impose their own criminal system over here. If you even try to claim that the USA healthcare system is effective, honest, patient-centred then you are terminally afflicted with lying diplomat syndrome.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

You are correct to highlight the fact that ‘we’ regard our subservience to the USA as part of the “natural order of things”, when in fact it obscures the truth that, thanks to our own staggering incompetence, we have suffered the greatest humiliation ever in British history. Even the dreaded NHS is no compensation for this global catastrophe.
However I also doubt very much if Cecil Rhodes would have been a fan of the NHS, although he was undoubtedly correct when he said “to be born an Englishman was to have drawn the greatest prize in the lottery of life”. Fortunately, it still is.
Where Mr Roussinos is in error is that we were in a far worse position in say 1946 when we were begging for US largesse or in 1972 when we were grovelling to get into the EEC or Common Market* as we then called it!

(*The current European Union of EU for US readers)

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

“USA has the greatest military the world has ever known.”

I really must dispute this claim. Whilst the US can certainly project enormous power can it similarly withstand enormous losses? I think not.

Could it for example survive three successive catastrophic defeats over three successive years such as the Trebia, Trasimene and Cannae? Certainly not on the evidence of say Vietnam where it LOST the will to win after a ‘mere’ 58,000 dead out of a population of over 250 million.

Are things any different today? If yes, why so?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Another point being missed is that the US health system is *hugely* inefficient. Some 2019 numbers for annual health spending per person are:
US $10900
[Switzerland and Scandinavia]
Germany $5400
[Various developed countries]
UK $4300

If the US switched over to a system like the NHS you would not only have better health, you would have more money left over for the military.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Sorry you feel, as an American, so put-upon by Europe and the rest of the world having chosen NOT to invest all our treasure in an all-consuming arms industry that eats its own population and demands ever-more conflict be settled by ever-more weaponry.
You see, I agree with you about addiction. Ours is the NHS – the attempt to optimise the health of the settled population by ensuring that nobody suffers unnecessary pain, sickness or death because of lack of money – while that of the USA is Defence. Itself equally a laudable enterprise – guaranteeing the freedom of its people to live their lives as they choose without risk of encountering brute force or coercion that would impose restrictions upon them, wherever in the world they choose to be.
Neither goal is fully achievable. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Kenny Harris
Kenny Harris
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Your comments are not accurate Britain always spent it’s allocated amount on the defence. We are a medium-size island, not threatened by anyone directly Overland America with its vast military and weapons industry has involved itself with unnecessary wars You know the ones I mean where they wanted regime change going right back to Korea and Vietnam then the Middle East then in South America, Also the Afghanistan a debacle, if I had my way I will would all the American bases in Britain to leave All we need is a compact army substantial navy and a nuclear deterrent which really we do have, The days of Britain trying to solve most of the worlds problems were long ago over America should follow suit.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Blimey, you really do hate free-at-point-of-need healthcare don’t you. Well it is certainly way more efficient and effective than the awful system in the US – worst infant mortality of any comparable nation etc etc. Anecdotal ‘evidence’ from everyone I know (the very rich excepted) who has had the misfortune to require medical treatment in the USA, even while ‘fully’ insured (ha ha) is just gobsmackingly eye-watering.

Maybe your military-industrial complex is just as corrupt and inefficient and if you sorted that out you also could spend 2% of GDP for the same result as your current 4%?

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Pity that about 90% of the ~$1trillion annual spend on defence is wasted. Pork barrel politics funding worthless over designed equipment and systems. Much of the so-called capital kit is so expensive that they couldn’t risk losing any of it in battle(s). Those aircraft carriers better stay at least 2,000 kms away from China when the conflict over Taiwan comes. Otherwise they won’t last 24 hrs against China’s unstoppable hypersonic carrier killers. Then we have the mindless new B21 which will cost nearly $1trillion apiece – if they ever fly.
Then there’s the vast bureaucracy of the Pentagon and the Defence Dept with nearly as many generals and miscellaneous bureaucrats as front line soldiers – who, of course, must be woke.
Then there’s the massive military pensions bill.
Funny how with all that 4% of GDP, the almighty US of A ran away from Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan with it’s ‘tail between it’s legs’. And that against enemies largely equipped with AK47s and a few IEDs.
Pathetic, absolutely pathetic.

Jonas Moze
Jonas Moze
1 year ago

There were a lot of words in the article, or opinion, , or essay, or what ever it was, but I have no idea what they meant. This line caught my attention though.

”Britain’s governing class has reduced the country to a powerless factotum of America’s global empire, and the degree to which such total self-abnegation of sovereignty is presented and experienced, not as a humiliation fetish but as the natural order of things, and the bedrock of Britain’s security.”

This is a thing you do because you fetishistize the NHS. You Brits think the NHS what is what is the best of Britain – that it is the base which supports the nation, it is the Mother and you its children. How you banged your pots to it on Thursdays, like some millions of Church Bells…..

”To have been born an Englishman (With the NHS) was to have ‘drawn the greatest prize in the lottery of life’.” you feel

But like an addiction to any substance or thing which abuses you and financially cripples you, the NHS is the enabler of your decay.

It is like this…. USA has the greatest military the world has ever known. The EU, and UK, hide under its umbrella, you are Biden’s Bi* ches, because USA spends a larger part of its GDP than anywhere on earth, many times over, to have that Military. What this means is American Health is Private funded – the normal person spends vast amounts on private health insurance that their taxes many fund this Massive Military.

UK chose to have a small and weak military so that the NHS be free at point of use. That was your Faustian bargain. Be weak and dependent in a scary world that you can have a NHS free to all? Or have a Powerful Military – which your history, pride, global position, security, and National Interest Require?

You, like every country in Europe, selected Nationalized Medicine to be your national priority. You gave up the ability to hold your head up in the harsh tables at the world conferences – that you may have this Bureaucratic Leviathan of the NHS, which totally abuses you, but you cannot leave because you still love it.

No 4% to the Military like USA, but a fudged 2%, really 1% made on paper to seem the agreed 2% which no one else in NATO does either.

AND SO – – – it is no Westminster Lie – it is there for all to see – instead of a strong solider to protect you you want nurse to cling to. And so you are what you chose – enjoy your video conference with the gp in 3 weeks, and the 14 hour ambulance wait….haha

trevor fitzgerald
trevor fitzgerald
1 year ago

I would love the authors view on this analysis of the collapse of empire leaving a banking infrastructure looking for business.
https://youtu.be/np_ylvc8Zj8

John 0
John 0
1 year ago

Makes sense to dump the continentals. Join with Canada for a new cross-pond alliance.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  John 0

Sorry no, Trudeau is not my cup of tea. The way the Canadian truckers were treated told me everything I need to know about the Canadian government.

Jim R
Jim R
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

The election of Castro’s illegitimate son is the evidence that Canada has lost its way, overcome by self-loathing. But its a cry for help from Canadians steeped in British heritage (culturally and politically). I got into a big spat in London a few years ago trying to rent a car without my passport. Only EU citizens can do that apparently. I kept pointing to the crown embossed on my Canadian drivers’ licence to the clerk but to no avail. I brought up the hundreds of thousands of Canadian soldiers who marched to war under British command in two world wars. The clerk (a recent immigrant) was unmoved and the people in line behind me scoffed. Our history is your history, plus a few trivial things that happened since you left. Our laws are your common laws. Our values (what’s left of them) are the lessons of your history. Why shouldn’t our connections be stronger?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim R

All very fair my friend, get rid of Trudeau and we could talk stronger ties. I don’t want him anywhere near our politics I’m afraid.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim R

You helped us burn the White House, gave the US Army “ a good kicking” which some us will never forget!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Maybe I’m being over zealous? I suppose Trudeau will pass…. He’s a bit pro vaccine mandates for my liking. He’s scared of his own people. I very much dislike him. Not Canadians, massive respect for the truckers especially.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

No you are not bring “over zealous” but have nailed the wretched Trudeau correctly.
A frightful ‘ poseur’, far worse than even his late father.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thanks, frightful poseur, I like that. He looks slippery as a snake. Bit of an insult to snakes actually.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thanks, frightful poseur, I like that. He looks slippery as a snake. Bit of an insult to snakes actually.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

No you are not bring “over zealous” but have nailed the wretched Trudeau correctly.
A frightful ‘ poseur’, far worse than even his late father.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Maybe I’m being over zealous? I suppose Trudeau will pass…. He’s a bit pro vaccine mandates for my liking. He’s scared of his own people. I very much dislike him. Not Canadians, massive respect for the truckers especially.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim R

All very fair my friend, get rid of Trudeau and we could talk stronger ties. I don’t want him anywhere near our politics I’m afraid.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim R

You helped us burn the White House, gave the US Army “ a good kicking” which some us will never forget!

Jim R
Jim R
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

The election of Castro’s illegitimate son is the evidence that Canada has lost its way, overcome by self-loathing. But its a cry for help from Canadians steeped in British heritage (culturally and politically). I got into a big spat in London a few years ago trying to rent a car without my passport. Only EU citizens can do that apparently. I kept pointing to the crown embossed on my Canadian drivers’ licence to the clerk but to no avail. I brought up the hundreds of thousands of Canadian soldiers who marched to war under British command in two world wars. The clerk (a recent immigrant) was unmoved and the people in line behind me scoffed. Our history is your history, plus a few trivial things that happened since you left. Our laws are your common laws. Our values (what’s left of them) are the lessons of your history. Why shouldn’t our connections be stronger?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  John 0

Sorry no, Trudeau is not my cup of tea. The way the Canadian truckers were treated told me everything I need to know about the Canadian government.

John 0
John 0
1 year ago

Makes sense to dump the continentals. Join with Canada for a new cross-pond alliance.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Given what a shambles Brexit has transpired to be – predictable of course once we went for a ‘Hard’ version – it was also inevitable it’d stimulate a whole new genre in ‘Betrayal / Excuses’ writing.

One subset of this growing genre is the pseudo-sociological which seeks to create an illusion of great scholarship across a broad historical canvas but just ends up a proper muddle.

They’ll be a lot more this. Brexit – the gift that keeps giving.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Given what a shambles Brexit has transpired to be – predictable of course once we went for a ‘Hard’ version – it was also inevitable it’d stimulate a whole new genre in ‘Betrayal / Excuses’ writing.

One subset of this growing genre is the pseudo-sociological which seeks to create an illusion of great scholarship across a broad historical canvas but just ends up a proper muddle.

They’ll be a lot more this. Brexit – the gift that keeps giving.

Roger Mortimer
Roger Mortimer
1 year ago

“Britain, more or less uniquely in Europe, possesses a markedly anti-national commenting class (intelligentsia is not quite the right word)”

Indeed it isn’t. But this article only goes to show how completely the author is part of it.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

A convoluted and unpersuasive argument.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

First, Brexit; next Wexit.
You guys are in danger of running out of things to flounce out of lol

Oliver Low
Oliver Low
1 year ago

Sorry to ‘whatabout’ but lets compare UK to our neighbours. Are things better in France? Or Germany? Or Italy? Switzerland yes. Norway yes. But these small states are not comparable. I don’t disagree with the overriding narrative – Britain is certainly declining and the political class are of no use – however to me this is a European reality. We have ageing in populations, we lack urgency and dynamism (on the latter the UK trumps all our neighbours but Switzerland) and we can no longer afford our welfare state. Only America’s economy is firing on all cylinders but there are myriad other problems there. British journalists are full of self-loathing and the only exceptionalism that I see is seeing ourselves as exceptionally broken vs others. I will of course caveat that Brexit was an absurdly idiotic act of self-harm, and on this front we are exceptional.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Oliver Low

I can’t quite follow the logic here.
I completely agree that both Britain the the EU countries have been heading in the wrong direction for decades and that bloated welfare states are no longer affordable and need reform.
But how do you propose to achieve such change ?
You seriously propose that this is more likely inside the EU than outside ?
Being outside (Brexit) is no guarantee of making better decisions – but at least it becomes a possibility.
How does remaining shackled to a broken European consensus (which you admit) help us ?
One further point: the UK has far more dynamism and innovation than most EU countries.

Oliver Low
Oliver Low
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I agree with you re innovation vs other European counties (as per my original post). We are more innovative and this is a metric that is tracked – only the Swiss better us in Europe. However this would be true regardless of Brexit. Leaving the EU has not benefited us in any way, all it has done is damage our economy. No economist would argue against that and even staunch Tories admit it. Brexit also rocked the identity boat that the author of the article is obsessing over. Our image and reputation (other metrics that be tracked) have been badly damaged. We even have a ‘moron risk premium’ attached to us in the key financial markets, meaning our debt is more expensive because the markets believe we are being led by the inept. Let’s not delude ourselves on Brexit, there is no upside in sight. I do live in hope but I’m not going to hold my breath. I also don’t see why anything we’re doing now couldn’t be done in the EU with billions more being generated in trade going into our coffers.

Last edited 1 year ago by Oliver Low
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Oliver Low

Thanks – good to start the New Year with some proper and polite discussion.
I’ve always viewed leaving the EU as a medium/long term gain at some short term cost. So checking the P&L account after only 2 years doesn’t bother me very much.
I don’t believe there is any long term damage to the economy. Getting away from the protectionist bureaucracy of the EU and its excessive regulation, instinct to oppose innovation and complex subsidies would help us. But these seem to have become so embedded into the civil service and government that we’ve forgotten how to do things for ourselves.
I could almost put it like like – the British people had enough self confidence to believe that they can make it after Brexit. The government and civil service don’t seem to.
Also, we simply don’t know yet how this will play out. One variable is how the UK changes policy after Brexit. The other – rarely mentioned – is how EU policy changes (most commentators assumes this stays much the same).
I don’t believe the hit to our reputation is permanent. Nor the “moron premium”. If we can manage a few years of dull stability (Sunak and Starmer are promising in this respect at least !) that could disappear.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Oliver Low

Thanks – good to start the New Year with some proper and polite discussion.
I’ve always viewed leaving the EU as a medium/long term gain at some short term cost. So checking the P&L account after only 2 years doesn’t bother me very much.
I don’t believe there is any long term damage to the economy. Getting away from the protectionist bureaucracy of the EU and its excessive regulation, instinct to oppose innovation and complex subsidies would help us. But these seem to have become so embedded into the civil service and government that we’ve forgotten how to do things for ourselves.
I could almost put it like like – the British people had enough self confidence to believe that they can make it after Brexit. The government and civil service don’t seem to.
Also, we simply don’t know yet how this will play out. One variable is how the UK changes policy after Brexit. The other – rarely mentioned – is how EU policy changes (most commentators assumes this stays much the same).
I don’t believe the hit to our reputation is permanent. Nor the “moron premium”. If we can manage a few years of dull stability (Sunak and Starmer are promising in this respect at least !) that could disappear.

Oliver Low
Oliver Low
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I agree with you re innovation vs other European counties (as per my original post). We are more innovative and this is a metric that is tracked – only the Swiss better us in Europe. However this would be true regardless of Brexit. Leaving the EU has not benefited us in any way, all it has done is damage our economy. No economist would argue against that and even staunch Tories admit it. Brexit also rocked the identity boat that the author of the article is obsessing over. Our image and reputation (other metrics that be tracked) have been badly damaged. We even have a ‘moron risk premium’ attached to us in the key financial markets, meaning our debt is more expensive because the markets believe we are being led by the inept. Let’s not delude ourselves on Brexit, there is no upside in sight. I do live in hope but I’m not going to hold my breath. I also don’t see why anything we’re doing now couldn’t be done in the EU with billions more being generated in trade going into our coffers.

Last edited 1 year ago by Oliver Low
Oliver Low
Oliver Low
1 year ago
Reply to  Oliver Low

Y

Last edited 1 year ago by Oliver Low
Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago
Reply to  Oliver Low

Not sure if it’s really useful here to try and compare but I think it is true that Germany is going through a similarly painful transition to the UK at the moment where a whole range of long accepted wisdoms have suddenly crumbled and the country doesn’t quite know who or what it is anymore or what to do about it all.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Oliver Low

I can’t quite follow the logic here.
I completely agree that both Britain the the EU countries have been heading in the wrong direction for decades and that bloated welfare states are no longer affordable and need reform.
But how do you propose to achieve such change ?
You seriously propose that this is more likely inside the EU than outside ?
Being outside (Brexit) is no guarantee of making better decisions – but at least it becomes a possibility.
How does remaining shackled to a broken European consensus (which you admit) help us ?
One further point: the UK has far more dynamism and innovation than most EU countries.

Oliver Low
Oliver Low
1 year ago
Reply to  Oliver Low

Y

Last edited 1 year ago by Oliver Low
Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago
Reply to  Oliver Low

Not sure if it’s really useful here to try and compare but I think it is true that Germany is going through a similarly painful transition to the UK at the moment where a whole range of long accepted wisdoms have suddenly crumbled and the country doesn’t quite know who or what it is anymore or what to do about it all.

Oliver Low
Oliver Low
1 year ago

Sorry to ‘whatabout’ but lets compare UK to our neighbours. Are things better in France? Or Germany? Or Italy? Switzerland yes. Norway yes. But these small states are not comparable. I don’t disagree with the overriding narrative – Britain is certainly declining and the political class are of no use – however to me this is a European reality. We have ageing in populations, we lack urgency and dynamism (on the latter the UK trumps all our neighbours but Switzerland) and we can no longer afford our welfare state. Only America’s economy is firing on all cylinders but there are myriad other problems there. British journalists are full of self-loathing and the only exceptionalism that I see is seeing ourselves as exceptionally broken vs others. I will of course caveat that Brexit was an absurdly idiotic act of self-harm, and on this front we are exceptional.

Ken Charman
Ken Charman
1 year ago

For most of its supporters Brexit is working then, as they have never subscribed to the elite Conservative view of a libertarian free trade Singapore on Thames or the Labour / Liberal view of a cosmo united Europe. Happy days ahead.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Ken Charman

More retreating into fantasy.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Ken Charman

More retreating into fantasy.

Ken Charman
Ken Charman
1 year ago

For most of its supporters Brexit is working then, as they have never subscribed to the elite Conservative view of a libertarian free trade Singapore on Thames or the Labour / Liberal view of a cosmo united Europe. Happy days ahead.

David Hedley
David Hedley
1 year ago

The analysis is, of course, broadly right, and it’s prima facie correct to argue that the UK will find it difficult to make a success of Brexit, partly because it lacks the economic resources to invest in the technology and infrastructure of the future, partly because it lacks the political leadership to make difficult choices (including radical reform of the NHS and welfare state), and partly because its international posture is essentially to support a frequently questionable US foreign policy, with meagre benefits from that relationship.
A change of government offers no panacea, as there is relatively little difference on the main policy areas between the two main parties. In these circumstances, where wealth creation is insufficient to cover the debt being incurred to fund the electorate’s expectations, a return to EU membership is the most rational position. Where is the leader that can offer a compelling alternative to this? I’m typing this while listening to the counsel of despair from the BBC on the NHS and the ‘red wall’ and feeling rather despondent.

Last edited 1 year ago by David Hedley
Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago
Reply to  David Hedley

A return to the single market (more likely than EU membership) would not solve anything. It would simply reinforce the tensions spoken of in this article between the desire for a well run state on the part of the electorate and the desire of the governing class to look anywhere else but at itself in the search for answers.
Britain will never be happy unless its internal problems and its core identity get sorted out. The EU might be guilty of regulatory overreach on many fronts but even Brussels wouldn’t wade into the swamp of Britain’s institutions that needs draining and restructuring. Only a period of intense, painful introspection and transformation will get these problems sorted out and only after that is done should another run at the EU be attempted as you don’t know what identity the transformation process is going to result in.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago
Reply to  David Hedley

A return to the single market (more likely than EU membership) would not solve anything. It would simply reinforce the tensions spoken of in this article between the desire for a well run state on the part of the electorate and the desire of the governing class to look anywhere else but at itself in the search for answers.
Britain will never be happy unless its internal problems and its core identity get sorted out. The EU might be guilty of regulatory overreach on many fronts but even Brussels wouldn’t wade into the swamp of Britain’s institutions that needs draining and restructuring. Only a period of intense, painful introspection and transformation will get these problems sorted out and only after that is done should another run at the EU be attempted as you don’t know what identity the transformation process is going to result in.

David Hedley
David Hedley
1 year ago

The analysis is, of course, broadly right, and it’s prima facie correct to argue that the UK will find it difficult to make a success of Brexit, partly because it lacks the economic resources to invest in the technology and infrastructure of the future, partly because it lacks the political leadership to make difficult choices (including radical reform of the NHS and welfare state), and partly because its international posture is essentially to support a frequently questionable US foreign policy, with meagre benefits from that relationship.
A change of government offers no panacea, as there is relatively little difference on the main policy areas between the two main parties. In these circumstances, where wealth creation is insufficient to cover the debt being incurred to fund the electorate’s expectations, a return to EU membership is the most rational position. Where is the leader that can offer a compelling alternative to this? I’m typing this while listening to the counsel of despair from the BBC on the NHS and the ‘red wall’ and feeling rather despondent.

Last edited 1 year ago by David Hedley
Douglas McNeish
Douglas McNeish
1 year ago

Aris has stripped away the noise that has accompanied policy in the U.K. for at least two generations: the dilemma of crafting a new existence for a nation that defined itself by empire. This was a process forced on the Hapsburg Austrian empire by the First World War, leaving Vienna a head without a body. The process for the U.K. has been gradual, a long descent into increasing “irrelevance” on the world stage as he describes it accurately. And underlying the failure of the British ruling classes to forge a new identity for the nation is, as he correctly identifies it, the pretence to a globalist importance that surpasses – and ignores – the needs of the British people to a sense of community, of being rooted to a home culture – that for the governing elites is too parochial, even embarrassing.
It is difficult to argue with a future vision of a Great Britain that, without empire, makes no sense, and must dissolve into the traditional ethnic parts of the whole, exemplified in Sturgeon’s SNP. The resulting rump state, England, is now so pixelated after generations of mass immigration, as its elites “sucked in” the masses from former imperial realms, that it will be nearly impossible to find a commonality of beliefs, of values, of aspirations that are required for any nation to exist.

Douglas McNeish
Douglas McNeish
1 year ago

Aris has stripped away the noise that has accompanied policy in the U.K. for at least two generations: the dilemma of crafting a new existence for a nation that defined itself by empire. This was a process forced on the Hapsburg Austrian empire by the First World War, leaving Vienna a head without a body. The process for the U.K. has been gradual, a long descent into increasing “irrelevance” on the world stage as he describes it accurately. And underlying the failure of the British ruling classes to forge a new identity for the nation is, as he correctly identifies it, the pretence to a globalist importance that surpasses – and ignores – the needs of the British people to a sense of community, of being rooted to a home culture – that for the governing elites is too parochial, even embarrassing.
It is difficult to argue with a future vision of a Great Britain that, without empire, makes no sense, and must dissolve into the traditional ethnic parts of the whole, exemplified in Sturgeon’s SNP. The resulting rump state, England, is now so pixelated after generations of mass immigration, as its elites “sucked in” the masses from former imperial realms, that it will be nearly impossible to find a commonality of beliefs, of values, of aspirations that are required for any nation to exist.

Will D. Mann
Will D. Mann
1 year ago

One shouldn’t forget that back in 2016 almost half never wanted brexit in the first place, it’s not just ” The Elite”.
Those who regard it as huge mistake are now a majority

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Will D. Mann

You are completely deluded.
You lost, stop whining.

Will D. Mann
Will D. Mann
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

After the 1975 referendum ( in which I voted against membership) it took less than a year for Enoch Powell, Tony Benn etc to start campaigning to overturn the result. By 1983 leaving was in the Labour manifesto.( In the end it took another 40 years to overturn the result.)
We don’t know when ( or even if ever) the 2016 decision will be reversed, or if the UK would ever be allowed back in.
However to claim its in someway illegitimate to point out that leaving the EU was a stupid mistake is somehow illegitimate is ridiculous

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Will D. Mann

Agreed. Methinks they doth protest too much…..

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Will D. Mann

Leaving the EU was not a mistake, it was the right thing to do.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Will D. Mann

Agreed. Methinks they doth protest too much…..

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Will D. Mann

Leaving the EU was not a mistake, it was the right thing to do.

Will D. Mann
Will D. Mann
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

After the 1975 referendum ( in which I voted against membership) it took less than a year for Enoch Powell, Tony Benn etc to start campaigning to overturn the result. By 1983 leaving was in the Labour manifesto.( In the end it took another 40 years to overturn the result.)
We don’t know when ( or even if ever) the 2016 decision will be reversed, or if the UK would ever be allowed back in.
However to claim its in someway illegitimate to point out that leaving the EU was a stupid mistake is somehow illegitimate is ridiculous

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Will D. Mann

You are completely deluded.
You lost, stop whining.

Will D. Mann
Will D. Mann
1 year ago

One shouldn’t forget that back in 2016 almost half never wanted brexit in the first place, it’s not just ” The Elite”.
Those who regard it as huge mistake are now a majority