It comes as a surprise to the Neo-Liberals that creating a Sodom and Gomorrah in your city has down sides. San Francisco, Portland, LA, Seattle, NYC, how amazed they are. Naturally they think more regulating, more money thrown at it……
But the thing is the real harm is not the anti-social stuff you see; it is the moral decay of everyone who becomes normalized to this degeneracy of prostitution and drugs and organized crime.
Fantastic spot for stag do’s though. It would cost Amsterdam millions in tourism to ban foreigners from the coffee shops, however it surprises me the Dutch have never actually bothered to regulate it rather than leaving the whole thing in the control of the underworld.
I’d always assumed the dope was legally grown and the red light area much more stringently policed.
No, but I think there are powerful vested interests that prefer the laws to be grey rather than black and white. The Netherlands is very egalitarian until you rise high enough and realize that it’s not.
The duties on alcohol raise billions of dollars annually. If the government don’t spend some of that on extra police to stop things getting out of hand then that’s their own problem
Why do you only mention cannabis? There is a great range of associated drugs, and a great range of other drugs.
In contrast, ‘alcohol’ is only ethyl alcohol, and has been produced and drunk though history as part of local culture, albeit now globalised.
It remains illegal in a few countries the cultures of which turned against it. Does its illegality or discouragement in such places create the same massive problems of addiction and extreme violent crime?
Brett H
1 year ago
What a lazy idea it was to think that everything would work out through a tolerant point of view.
Indeed – Either fully criminalise or fully legalise. We’ve seen what happens with full criminalisation. Time to move the other way. Remember prohibition and don’t tell me that drugs are different. Think of the tax revenue that could be raised from legal recreational drugs.
So Holland has had 60 years to fix these problems, has not, and this is the fault of weed shops? Spare me. Who is to blame for the stupidity of allowing cannabis to be sold in shops, but not legally produced, or taxed? Call them out.
No mention of alcohol as a problem. Has the author not noticed that similar rowdiness is common in many hot capitals in Europe, or that alcohol makes meek people rowdy, whilst cannabis makes rowdy people meek? She also failed to see the chasm between the worlds of cocaine, heroin, and to a lesser extent MDMA – fantastic profits, and therefore terrifying violence and disruption, and cannabis. She would better spend her reading hours on informed writers, Roberto Saviano for example, rather than the egregious Peter Hitchins.
Nathan Hale
1 year ago
Anyone who believes that the popularization of the use of profoundly powerful mood modifying agents, not excluding marijuana, has had anything other than utterly ruinous effects on once well ordered Western societies is perceiving reality through eyes of the sort that were characterized by William Blake:
Western societies have been getting drunk for centuries, and have had opium dens and cocaine in the not too distant past. None of which proved to be utterly ruinous for society as a whole, even if it did get the better of some individuals
QUOTE:
Is Amsterdam safe to live or visit alone? Read up on how safe Amsterdam is at night and in the Red Light District, plus if there are any areas to avoid as a newcomer.
Is Amsterdam safe to travel? Yes, Amsterdam is a safe city to visit. In the last Safe City Index (2019), Amsterdam ranked fourth position in the list of safest cities in the world.
Though you can buy marihuana freely in coffee shops, smart drugs in smart shops and prostitution is legal, Amsterdam is not a dangerous city.
The city does especially well in regards to traffic. Because everyone travels by bike there are not many traffic accidents and the air in Amsterdam is not (very) polluted.
For crime, Amsterdam is also safe. The risk of violent assault in Amsterdam is pretty much absent, in all parts of the city. Also, crime rates in general in Amsterdam are going down every year.
Looks like unherd is riddled with it too.
Yes, I’ve come to realise that as well. The writers are generally ok, it’s the commentary – so many stale reactionaries huddling in their comfort zone echo chamber.
I do not doubt that your source material is correct and this article too. The type of crime that is described in the article is quite different to the type of crime you indicate is absent. It is the creeping invidousness of crime into all levels of public life that is so damaging and of course the more general unruliness and anti social behaviour may not be violent in the way you describe but it is clearly not welcome to those that live in the city and reduces their sense of well being and security.
Last edited 1 year ago by Michelle Johnston
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
It seems odd that they would have the burden of the industry without the benefit of regulating and taxing the production of marijuana. Particularly since they are famous for their agricultural sector it would seem logical to produce it locally and legally. The legalization of cannabis in Canada has been pretty drama free.
Methadras Aszlosis
1 year ago
What have libertine values gotten Amsterdam with free-wheeling sex and drugs? Nothing but misery and heartache and no one will admit it for fear of looking like a moralistic puritan. It’s rubbish. If you want degenerate and degrading behavior to run rampant in your city, then why even stop at legalized drugs and prostitution? You think somehow that junkies and sex addicts will stay in their cloistered places?
Adam McDermont
1 year ago
Although I would describe myself as “socially conservative” and anti-degeneracy, I think there can be a positive balance struck here. Legalising the growing of cannabis, limiting the number of outlets that can sell it, and banning cannabis consumption in public seems a useful way forward. Places where people smoke it should be out of the way and anti-social behaviour put down forcefully. Drugs have a terrible impact on society, but I am not sure that legally prohibiting the alteration of consciousness is the best way to go.
Michelle Johnston
1 year ago
There is something serendiptitous about this. Over on the FT an article about Singapore is concurrently approaching this from entirely the opposite end of the argument and remarking that “look at Thailand where you can smoke.” Indeed look at Bangkok?!
Why cannot Singapore liberalise? I was in Singapore for the weekend as they opened up a festival which celebrated all things French and paid tribute to such French attributes as the tour de france with an all day rally and Jazz at the outdoor arena in the Botanical Gardens. A celebration of skills and craft which was carried out in such away all age groups and familes could participate.
This study of Amsterdam puts paid to the idea that these things happen in a modular contained fashion they do not.
I should say the atmosphere in Singapore was up beat and full of natural vigour and human activity fuelled by nothing more than natural enthusiasm.
Last edited 1 year ago by Michelle Johnston
Kevin L
1 year ago
This writer is biased against weed. She probably belongs to one of the Christian Parties which whine to no end about weed — but fail to admonish alcohol driven violence! Everything she described is attributed to alcohol (with the exception of the rare occasion of sitting on someone’s step to smoke).
The two main problems in A’dam are: 1. Brits and Americans & Alcohol 2. Alcohol & Soccer Games Alcohol. Dear Author,If you’re going to submit anti-weed propaganda at least understand that weed smokers do not get violent. Amsterdam’s violence and property destruction is 100% an alcohol issue.
Kevin L
1 year ago
This writer is biased against weed. She probably belongs to one of the Christian Parties which whine to no end about weed — but fail to admonish alcohol driven violence! Everything she described is attributed to alcohol (with the exception of the rare occasion of sitting on someone’s step to smoke).
The two main problems in A’dam are: 1. Brits and Americans & Alcohol 2. Alcohol & Soccer Games Alcohol. Dear Author,If you’re going to submit anti-weed propaganda at least understand that weed smokers do not get violent. Amsterdam’s violence and property destruction is 100% an alcohol issue.
Kevin L
1 year ago
FYI: Too many comments here are from tourists or people who never lived in Amsterdam; and never visited any Dutch city/village.
Kevin L
1 year ago
FYI: Too many comments here are from tourists or people who never lived in Amsterdam; and never visited any Dutch city/village.
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
I’ve only ever been once and that was enough: porn hookers boring people, appalling food and restaurants.. and one can get Amstel without having to go there.
What was you expecting to find in Europes most famous red light district out of interest? Going there and complaining about the clientele and lack of high end restaurants is akin to going to an Stonehenge and moaning that all you saw was some old stones
I visited and found it quite the opposite, we had a lovely time eating cake and laughing our heads off with all the tables around and people from all over the world. We went up an old working windmill which was awesome, the Amsterdam maritime museum was stunning, as was the Rijksmuseum, the canals and multitude of boats are a sight to see in themselves, the bakeries were next level. Then round other parts to arnhem to see the monster truck world finals – awesome, architecture in rotterdam is insane in places. Then we walked the Atlantic Wall bunkers at ijmuiden which were also AWESOME. For any ww2 or urbexing nuts out there I would fully recommend ijmuiden.
I like Holland too, been a few times it’s great country and the most laid back people you can meet.
I just find it strange that people go to well known rowdy areas and then complain that it’s a bit rowdy. I’m not sure if it’s snobbery or an arrogance in believing that because you don’t enjoy something it must be wrong or stamped out, but that attitude annoys me. In the same way you wouldn’t go to Ibiza expecting high brow culture, or the Vatican expecting a rave, if you don’t like boozy bars and stoned people giggling in coffee shops then simply avoid the red light distract rather than trying to stop it for those that do enjoy it.
Sorry, I meant to reply to nicky, get your point there entirely! Especially agree with the snobbery/ arrogance – that attitude annoys me too. I pity the fool that managed to find Amsterdam boring! Also agree people are lovely, my cousins married to a Dutch lady, he moved there years ago for work.
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago
What a dishonest piece of crap article. A pseudo-mix of reporting on organized mafia and pretending that in order to curtain organized crime it is needed to bow to the knees of arrogant liberal gentrifiers. f**k gentrifiers, f**k NIMBY, and f**k to whoever portrays these clandestine passagers of urban vibrancy as “community minded citizens”
Amsterdam is a very big city, and contains a lot of neighboroods whose more residential mood would better accomodate the lifestye peferences of “Els and Romeo”.
Not every street in the world as to be a santized suburbia, and the Red Light district is bringing a lot of appeal, culture, toursists and economic activity to the Netherlands, as well as a pleasant relief for travelling brittons. Lots of people will be happy with getting cheap housing downotown Amsterdam in a district with specific nuisances, and accept ht this district might be noisy or require more policing than other areas.
Yet the people who back those “model citizens” Els and Romeo are just predatory house flippers who want to turn an historic neighborood into another wealthy bourgeois enclave with “cltural cachet” by expropriating the neighborrods historical acivty. I think those people are despicable scum, that they impose large costs on society by confiscating downtown areas that have the most proximity to landmark site, transport nodes and activity centers and privatize those districts for residential bourgeois villages. The downtown areas of big cities should have urban plannig that serves the whole country, not NIMBY gentrifiers..
Yes, what a pleasant relief it is to promote the trafficking and sexual exploitation (and occasional murder) of women (only women though so not important), and the availability of a drug known to have a high risk of causing paranoid, aggressive behaviour and episodic psychosis in its users (literally the first dopehead I ever met (in 1982) was a paranoid, potentially violent, actually threatening (i.e. issuing threats) individual who hated women). How awful to live in a ‘nimby’, ‘bourgeois’ area where these things are missing.
And anyone who thinks that ‘suburbia’ is ‘sanitised’ has been probably watching too many shows on TV, and believing them.
As one commenter notes: alcohol makes meek people rowdy, whilst cannabis makes rowdy people meek
I would suggest that it is the over-indulgence in alcohol that promotes unruly behavior. Perhaps simply moving the pubs out of the red light district would severely reduce the commotion.
Alcohol deaths yearly – 3.000,000 annually, 5% of all deaths, 13% of young deaths. The figures for cannabis – essentially 0%, and 0%. Cannabis does not have a ‘high risk’ of causing psychosis, it has a very low risk of triggering psychosis, in those who are susceptible, usually when it is used at high levels for many weeks, months.
By any who are prepared to acknowledge the actualities of the matter, exposure to marijuana, particularly but not exclusively as it is in its contemporary, highly hybridized, incarnations, is understood to have readily identifiable schizophrenigenic and psychotomimetic effects. For verification of that contention, one need only consult relevant medical literature:
Exactly. The marijuana being sold today is nothing at all like that of the seventies. A retired friend of mine, a few years ago, started smoking it again and suddenly experienced profound short term memory loss – so profound I assumed he’d had a stroke. And this was days after his most recent contact with the drug. But several CAT scans and MRIs later they concluded he had nothing like that going on. He stopped smoking the dope and there has been no recurrence.
Youre wrong Dom, THC levels in cannabis are much higher now and so is the risk of psychosis, I speak from personal experience, I was hospitalised for 2 weeks after a psychotic episode due to ‘skunk’, it is NOT harmless as you infer.
Thanks for the replies. However, they don’t speak to me. I am fully aware that THC levels have gone up 2 or 3 fold; and nowhere did I claim that MJ is harmless – most things, drugs, activities, ideas, are a mix of harmful, innocuous, beneficial. You have to look at the overall profile to ascertain what we should do about them. In these terms, MJ is one of the safest drugs around, and has many beneficial effects. I’m sorry to hear of your hospitalisation Carl, but not surprised as it happens to thousands of people each year, and I have met a few. At least three factors are also relevant: (1) prohibition is the driver and the maintainer of the THC increase. The market is unregulated and the law does not distinguish between a kilo of 20% THC, and one of 6% THC (2) What skunk is to 1960’s weed is what beer is to whiskey – you just use less. Inexperienced people lack the knowledge of responsible use – simply banning it all is a really half-arsed answer. With tobacco and alcohol, govt uses the huge tax incomes to fund educational and health interventions (3) MJ use has been found to lead to substantial decreases in alcohol use (booze is, by far and away more lethal, harmful to body and mind, causes more dangerous and violent behaviour) (4) The link between psychosis and MJ is not clear – though it can certainly cause paranoia and anxiety, this soon wears off, though if you have a underlying issue, the problems may be longer -term. There is a huge self-selection bias – people with MH problems often use MJ, as it has therapeutic effects alongside the negative.
The police know this, the courts know this, Doctors know this, users know this. It only remains controversial in politics.
I agree with you on this, bit of info for others:
Steph and dom from gogglebox trying to get medicinal mj for epileptic son (was broadcast on c4 so should be on 4od) based on others very positive experience, well worth a watch for any doubters of the benefits of medicinal mj, and the resistance of big pharma to it. Big pharma can’t charge you for a plant you could grow in your garden. Takes all the profit out.
I linked you prof. David nutt above too, he backs up much of what you say.
He’s researching psilocybin at the moment, I’m pretty sure they found it more effective than anti depressants for treating depression and anxiety though I’d have to look it up for the exact findings.
My cousin lives in Amsterdam working for a bank, visited him a few times, he likes it so much he hasn’t bothered to come back to the UK, it was lovely, clean streets, millions of bikes, we used the buses at night felt very safe, amazing Chinese quarter, lovely bakeries. Have to say I think this article is pants compared to my own experience. We have a camper travelled all round the Netherlands, honestly one of the nicest, cleanest, countries to tour.
In 2019, researchers in the Netherlands secured samples of the marijuana that was then being purveyed in Dutch coffeehouses.
The researcher’s analyses of the multiplicity of samples that they obtained revealed to them that the average concentration of THC in contemporary marijuana was not 2-3 times as great as it had been in the 1970s and 1980s but 19 times as great, so great, in reality, as to possess hallucinogenic potential corresponding with that of LSD.
The ruinously deleterious effects of marijuana exposure, on the individual and society, remain obscure only to those who refuse to associate that which is associable and to correlate that which is correlative.
Moreover, just because you can get that 3 x strength that is not to say it’s typical or easily acquired, or even that popular. In countries that have properly legalised it – ie not Holland – these factors are on the packaging, as with spirits, wine, beer.
“ in reality, as to possess hallucinogenic potential corresponding with that of LSD.”
You haven’t a clue. Your claims, and near paranoia affect, are such that one might wonder what you’ve been smoking. It is impossible to get the plant much over 25%, for much the same reasons as you can’t get an apple tree to make a basketball sized apple. A refined product called shatter exists with is 60%. Hard to get and very few people want it. I’ve used MJ since the 1980s, and still some today. I know how it has typically changed – about twice as strong now, and I simply use half as much.
Anyhow, what is your point? It has increased in strength so……..?
As I don’t know any dope smokers or druggies I cannot comment.. If people want or need such self destruction then I’m pleased to see them off into the deal box and the bone garden or behind the fire curtain..and we are well rid of them, but it and that should be their freedom of choice
Physiologically and medically not possible. You have something else causing your problem(s). Post even one published medical paper to prove your statement. And I stress ‘medical’ (not some bought-and-paid-for “study”).
Also just remembered this, sorry unrelated to your original point but relevant to the article and contradicts the idea the red light district is awful, was broadcast a long time ago, the women’s institutes findings on brothels after touring Amsterdam and other places:
The pair went on the tour, which was filmed for a Channel 4 documentary, as part of a campaign started after the murder of five sex workers in Ipswich in 2006. Steve Wright, of Ipswich, is now serving life in prison.
Mrs Johnson proposed to her local WI the organisation lobby for brothels to be legalised. She was greeted with gasps but argues it is in the tradition of WI campaigns…. Source:
If as many people smoked cannabis as drank alcohol (and as heavily if you could calculate a like for like) I’d wager you’d find it causes just as many if not more problems for society at large as alcohol does.
While the deaths and fighting may be lower, the surge in mental health and respiratory illnesses would more than compensate.
Now personally I think it would be easier to legalise it, banning it has never stopped people partaking and it’s a source of revenue for unlawful people, but this false equivalence with alcohol as a justification I find tiresome
November 2010
Alcohol is more harmful than heroin or crack when the overall dangers to the individual and society are considered, according to a study in the Lancet.
The report is co-authored by Professor David Nutt, the former government chief drugs adviser who was sacked in 2009.
It ranked 20 drugs on 16 measures of harm to users and to wider society.
Heroin, crack and crystal meth were deemed worst for individuals, with alcohol, heroin and crack cocaine worst for society, and alcohol worst overall.
The study by the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs also said tobacco and cocaine were judged to be equally harmful, while ecstasy and LSD were among the least damaging.
Oh come off it, if you seriously believe that alcohol is more dangerous than skag or crack then I’ll find it hard to have a serious conversation with you.
If there were as many heroin users as there is drinkers society would fall apart at the seams
LOL yeah I really don’t want to make the argument for banning alcohol, it was more about setting policy based on science though I was using to support the argument that cannabis is low harm, based on real science.
I’ll be honest without pulling up the lancet paper I couldn’t get into it too much, did you take a look at the chart? Just interesting to compare cannabis to others, I’m really not making a case for crack or heroin America has enormous opiate issues atm. But the study was done for the government to advise them on drug classification policy:
The findings run contrary to the government’s long-established drug classification system, but the paper’s authors argue that their system – based on the consensus of experts – provides an accurate assessment of harm for policy makers.
“Our findings lend support to previous work in the UK and the Netherlands, confirming that the present drug classification systems have little relation to the evidence of harm,” the paper says
So heroin and crack are still charted right at the top 3. It was all to with trying to base drug policy on actual science, the government didn’t like the science and they sacked the poor guy. He’s done a fair bit about it if you search him, he is a real professor, I think he seems pretty genuine but that’s just my humble opinion.
Sorry Billy – I like and appreciate your comments in particular- but you are very wrong on this. I am both ‘booze and MJ positive’ …just can’t abide the demonisation of either. Pointing out the blinding hypocrisy between accepting alcohol and freaking out about MJ is one way I react. BTW if you ate, or smoked MJ pure there would be no respiratory problems – It’s mixing with tobacco thats bad that way. Beyond a shadow of a doubt booze is more harmful – a figure of 100 x so often gets bandied about – rough guesstimate for sure, but about right.
I agree, I’d have both legal as it doesn’t bother me at all. I’ve never enjoyed the weed really, always preferred the party drugs in my youth.
My opinion is based on nothing but my own observations, but all the boys I know who smoke it regularly are definitely slower than the drinkers. It definitely affects the brain more than alcohol in my opinion, although alcohol destroys the liver so it’s no better or worse
It comes as a surprise to the Neo-Liberals that creating a Sodom and Gomorrah in your city has down sides. San Francisco, Portland, LA, Seattle, NYC, how amazed they are. Naturally they think more regulating, more money thrown at it……
But the thing is the real harm is not the anti-social stuff you see; it is the moral decay of everyone who becomes normalized to this degeneracy of prostitution and drugs and organized crime.
Fantastic spot for stag do’s though. It would cost Amsterdam millions in tourism to ban foreigners from the coffee shops, however it surprises me the Dutch have never actually bothered to regulate it rather than leaving the whole thing in the control of the underworld.
I’d always assumed the dope was legally grown and the red light area much more stringently policed.
No, but I think there are powerful vested interests that prefer the laws to be grey rather than black and white. The Netherlands is very egalitarian until you rise high enough and realize that it’s not.
Geofence dog containment collar is the best way to keep your buddy safe in the yard.
What’s NOT mentioned are the problems caused by alcohol. Much worse affects than cannabis in any town centre.
The duties on alcohol raise billions of dollars annually. If the government don’t spend some of that on extra police to stop things getting out of hand then that’s their own problem
Why do you only mention cannabis? There is a great range of associated drugs, and a great range of other drugs.
In contrast, ‘alcohol’ is only ethyl alcohol, and has been produced and drunk though history as part of local culture, albeit now globalised.
It remains illegal in a few countries the cultures of which turned against it. Does its illegality or discouragement in such places create the same massive problems of addiction and extreme violent crime?
What a lazy idea it was to think that everything would work out through a tolerant point of view.
A laziness outmatched by the idea that the war on drugs works.
Indeed – Either fully criminalise or fully legalise. We’ve seen what happens with full criminalisation. Time to move the other way. Remember prohibition and don’t tell me that drugs are different. Think of the tax revenue that could be raised from legal recreational drugs.
Drugs are different.
It has never been properly tried
Like communism.
So Holland has had 60 years to fix these problems, has not, and this is the fault of weed shops? Spare me. Who is to blame for the stupidity of allowing cannabis to be sold in shops, but not legally produced, or taxed? Call them out.
No mention of alcohol as a problem. Has the author not noticed that similar rowdiness is common in many hot capitals in Europe, or that alcohol makes meek people rowdy, whilst cannabis makes rowdy people meek? She also failed to see the chasm between the worlds of cocaine, heroin, and to a lesser extent MDMA – fantastic profits, and therefore terrifying violence and disruption, and cannabis. She would better spend her reading hours on informed writers, Roberto Saviano for example, rather than the egregious Peter Hitchins.
Anyone who believes that the popularization of the use of profoundly powerful mood modifying agents, not excluding marijuana, has had anything other than utterly ruinous effects on once well ordered Western societies is perceiving reality through eyes of the sort that were characterized by William Blake:
“The eye that is altered alters all.”
Western societies have been getting drunk for centuries, and have had opium dens and cocaine in the not too distant past. None of which proved to be utterly ruinous for society as a whole, even if it did get the better of some individuals
Just to finish destroying this article as nonsense check out the crime rate compared to London:
https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=Netherlands&city2=Amsterdam
Amsterdam is THE FOURTH SAFEST CITY IN THE WORLD
QUOTE:
Is Amsterdam safe to live or visit alone? Read up on how safe Amsterdam is at night and in the Red Light District, plus if there are any areas to avoid as a newcomer.
Is Amsterdam safe to travel? Yes, Amsterdam is a safe city to visit. In the last Safe City Index (2019), Amsterdam ranked fourth position in the list of safest cities in the world.
Though you can buy marihuana freely in coffee shops, smart drugs in smart shops and prostitution is legal, Amsterdam is not a dangerous city.
The city does especially well in regards to traffic. Because everyone travels by bike there are not many traffic accidents and the air in Amsterdam is not (very) polluted.
For crime, Amsterdam is also safe. The risk of violent assault in Amsterdam is pretty much absent, in all parts of the city. Also, crime rates in general in Amsterdam are going down every year.
CRIME DOWN EVERY YEAR
Source: https://www.expatica.com/nl/moving/location/is-amsterdam-safe-1126952/
Cor blimey, all propaganda is lies. Looks like unherd is riddled with it too.
Looks like unherd is riddled with it too.
Yes, I’ve come to realise that as well. The writers are generally ok, it’s the commentary – so many stale reactionaries huddling in their comfort zone echo chamber.
I do not doubt that your source material is correct and this article too. The type of crime that is described in the article is quite different to the type of crime you indicate is absent. It is the creeping invidousness of crime into all levels of public life that is so damaging and of course the more general unruliness and anti social behaviour may not be violent in the way you describe but it is clearly not welcome to those that live in the city and reduces their sense of well being and security.
It seems odd that they would have the burden of the industry without the benefit of regulating and taxing the production of marijuana. Particularly since they are famous for their agricultural sector it would seem logical to produce it locally and legally. The legalization of cannabis in Canada has been pretty drama free.
What have libertine values gotten Amsterdam with free-wheeling sex and drugs? Nothing but misery and heartache and no one will admit it for fear of looking like a moralistic puritan. It’s rubbish. If you want degenerate and degrading behavior to run rampant in your city, then why even stop at legalized drugs and prostitution? You think somehow that junkies and sex addicts will stay in their cloistered places?
Although I would describe myself as “socially conservative” and anti-degeneracy, I think there can be a positive balance struck here. Legalising the growing of cannabis, limiting the number of outlets that can sell it, and banning cannabis consumption in public seems a useful way forward. Places where people smoke it should be out of the way and anti-social behaviour put down forcefully. Drugs have a terrible impact on society, but I am not sure that legally prohibiting the alteration of consciousness is the best way to go.
There is something serendiptitous about this. Over on the FT an article about Singapore is concurrently approaching this from entirely the opposite end of the argument and remarking that “look at Thailand where you can smoke.” Indeed look at Bangkok?!
Why cannot Singapore liberalise? I was in Singapore for the weekend as they opened up a festival which celebrated all things French and paid tribute to such French attributes as the tour de france with an all day rally and Jazz at the outdoor arena in the Botanical Gardens. A celebration of skills and craft which was carried out in such away all age groups and familes could participate.
This study of Amsterdam puts paid to the idea that these things happen in a modular contained fashion they do not.
I should say the atmosphere in Singapore was up beat and full of natural vigour and human activity fuelled by nothing more than natural enthusiasm.
This writer is biased against weed. She probably belongs to one of the Christian Parties which whine to no end about weed — but fail to admonish alcohol driven violence!
Everything she described is attributed to alcohol (with the exception of the rare occasion of sitting on someone’s step to smoke).
The two main problems in A’dam are: 1. Brits and Americans & Alcohol 2. Alcohol & Soccer Games Alcohol.
Dear Author, If you’re going to submit anti-weed propaganda at least understand that weed smokers do not get violent.
Amsterdam’s violence and property destruction is 100% an alcohol issue.
This writer is biased against weed. She probably belongs to one of the Christian Parties which whine to no end about weed — but fail to admonish alcohol driven violence!
Everything she described is attributed to alcohol (with the exception of the rare occasion of sitting on someone’s step to smoke).
The two main problems in A’dam are: 1. Brits and Americans & Alcohol 2. Alcohol & Soccer Games Alcohol.
Dear Author, If you’re going to submit anti-weed propaganda at least understand that weed smokers do not get violent.
Amsterdam’s violence and property destruction is 100% an alcohol issue.
FYI: Too many comments here are from tourists or people who never lived in Amsterdam; and never visited any Dutch city/village.
FYI: Too many comments here are from tourists or people who never lived in Amsterdam; and never visited any Dutch city/village.
I’ve only ever been once and that was enough: porn hookers boring people, appalling food and restaurants.. and one can get Amstel without having to go there.
What was you expecting to find in Europes most famous red light district out of interest? Going there and complaining about the clientele and lack of high end restaurants is akin to going to an Stonehenge and moaning that all you saw was some old stones
I visited and found it quite the opposite, we had a lovely time eating cake and laughing our heads off with all the tables around and people from all over the world. We went up an old working windmill which was awesome, the Amsterdam maritime museum was stunning, as was the Rijksmuseum, the canals and multitude of boats are a sight to see in themselves, the bakeries were next level. Then round other parts to arnhem to see the monster truck world finals – awesome, architecture in rotterdam is insane in places. Then we walked the Atlantic Wall bunkers at ijmuiden which were also AWESOME. For any ww2 or urbexing nuts out there I would fully recommend ijmuiden.
I like Holland too, been a few times it’s great country and the most laid back people you can meet.
I just find it strange that people go to well known rowdy areas and then complain that it’s a bit rowdy. I’m not sure if it’s snobbery or an arrogance in believing that because you don’t enjoy something it must be wrong or stamped out, but that attitude annoys me. In the same way you wouldn’t go to Ibiza expecting high brow culture, or the Vatican expecting a rave, if you don’t like boozy bars and stoned people giggling in coffee shops then simply avoid the red light distract rather than trying to stop it for those that do enjoy it.
Sorry, I meant to reply to nicky, get your point there entirely! Especially agree with the snobbery/ arrogance – that attitude annoys me too. I pity the fool that managed to find Amsterdam boring! Also agree people are lovely, my cousins married to a Dutch lady, he moved there years ago for work.
What a dishonest piece of crap article. A pseudo-mix of reporting on organized mafia and pretending that in order to curtain organized crime it is needed to bow to the knees of arrogant liberal gentrifiers. f**k gentrifiers, f**k NIMBY, and f**k to whoever portrays these clandestine passagers of urban vibrancy as “community minded citizens”
Amsterdam is a very big city, and contains a lot of neighboroods whose more residential mood would better accomodate the lifestye peferences of “Els and Romeo”.
Not every street in the world as to be a santized suburbia, and the Red Light district is bringing a lot of appeal, culture, toursists and economic activity to the Netherlands, as well as a pleasant relief for travelling brittons. Lots of people will be happy with getting cheap housing downotown Amsterdam in a district with specific nuisances, and accept ht this district might be noisy or require more policing than other areas.
Yet the people who back those “model citizens” Els and Romeo are just predatory house flippers who want to turn an historic neighborood into another wealthy bourgeois enclave with “cltural cachet” by expropriating the neighborrods historical acivty. I think those people are despicable scum, that they impose large costs on society by confiscating downtown areas that have the most proximity to landmark site, transport nodes and activity centers and privatize those districts for residential bourgeois villages. The downtown areas of big cities should have urban plannig that serves the whole country, not NIMBY gentrifiers..
Yes, what a pleasant relief it is to promote the trafficking and sexual exploitation (and occasional murder) of women (only women though so not important), and the availability of a drug known to have a high risk of causing paranoid, aggressive behaviour and episodic psychosis in its users (literally the first dopehead I ever met (in 1982) was a paranoid, potentially violent, actually threatening (i.e. issuing threats) individual who hated women). How awful to live in a ‘nimby’, ‘bourgeois’ area where these things are missing.
And anyone who thinks that ‘suburbia’ is ‘sanitised’ has been probably watching too many shows on TV, and believing them.
As one commenter notes: alcohol makes meek people rowdy, whilst cannabis makes rowdy people meek
I would suggest that it is the over-indulgence in alcohol that promotes unruly behavior. Perhaps simply moving the pubs out of the red light district would severely reduce the commotion.
Alcohol deaths yearly – 3.000,000 annually, 5% of all deaths, 13% of young deaths. The figures for cannabis – essentially 0%, and 0%. Cannabis does not have a ‘high risk’ of causing psychosis, it has a very low risk of triggering psychosis, in those who are susceptible, usually when it is used at high levels for many weeks, months.
No counterpoints, just downticks – the sign of the herd.
By any who are prepared to acknowledge the actualities of the matter, exposure to marijuana, particularly but not exclusively as it is in its contemporary, highly hybridized, incarnations, is understood to have readily identifiable schizophrenigenic and psychotomimetic effects. For verification of that contention, one need only consult relevant medical literature:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3927252/ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
https://www.livescience.com/17707-marijuana-thc-brain-psychosis.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6861931/
https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/cannabis-induced-psychosis-review
https://journals.lww.com/indianjpsychiatry/Fulltext/2014/56010/Cannabis_and_psychosis__Neurobiology.3.aspx
Exactly. The marijuana being sold today is nothing at all like that of the seventies. A retired friend of mine, a few years ago, started smoking it again and suddenly experienced profound short term memory loss – so profound I assumed he’d had a stroke. And this was days after his most recent contact with the drug. But several CAT scans and MRIs later they concluded he had nothing like that going on. He stopped smoking the dope and there has been no recurrence.
Youre wrong Dom, THC levels in cannabis are much higher now and so is the risk of psychosis, I speak from personal experience, I was hospitalised for 2 weeks after a psychotic episode due to ‘skunk’, it is NOT harmless as you infer.
Thanks for the replies. However, they don’t speak to me. I am fully aware that THC levels have gone up 2 or 3 fold; and nowhere did I claim that MJ is harmless – most things, drugs, activities, ideas, are a mix of harmful, innocuous, beneficial. You have to look at the overall profile to ascertain what we should do about them. In these terms, MJ is one of the safest drugs around, and has many beneficial effects. I’m sorry to hear of your hospitalisation Carl, but not surprised as it happens to thousands of people each year, and I have met a few. At least three factors are also relevant: (1) prohibition is the driver and the maintainer of the THC increase. The market is unregulated and the law does not distinguish between a kilo of 20% THC, and one of 6% THC (2) What skunk is to 1960’s weed is what beer is to whiskey – you just use less. Inexperienced people lack the knowledge of responsible use – simply banning it all is a really half-arsed answer. With tobacco and alcohol, govt uses the huge tax incomes to fund educational and health interventions (3) MJ use has been found to lead to substantial decreases in alcohol use (booze is, by far and away more lethal, harmful to body and mind, causes more dangerous and violent behaviour) (4) The link between psychosis and MJ is not clear – though it can certainly cause paranoia and anxiety, this soon wears off, though if you have a underlying issue, the problems may be longer -term. There is a huge self-selection bias – people with MH problems often use MJ, as it has therapeutic effects alongside the negative.
The police know this, the courts know this, Doctors know this, users know this. It only remains controversial in politics.
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt9652248/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/8241908/goggleboxs-steph-and-dom-parker-chronically-ill-son-cannabis/amp/
I agree with you on this, bit of info for others:
Steph and dom from gogglebox trying to get medicinal mj for epileptic son (was broadcast on c4 so should be on 4od) based on others very positive experience, well worth a watch for any doubters of the benefits of medicinal mj, and the resistance of big pharma to it. Big pharma can’t charge you for a plant you could grow in your garden. Takes all the profit out.
I linked you prof. David nutt above too, he backs up much of what you say.
He’s researching psilocybin at the moment, I’m pretty sure they found it more effective than anti depressants for treating depression and anxiety though I’d have to look it up for the exact findings.
My cousin lives in Amsterdam working for a bank, visited him a few times, he likes it so much he hasn’t bothered to come back to the UK, it was lovely, clean streets, millions of bikes, we used the buses at night felt very safe, amazing Chinese quarter, lovely bakeries. Have to say I think this article is pants compared to my own experience. We have a camper travelled all round the Netherlands, honestly one of the nicest, cleanest, countries to tour.
THC levels have been increased 2 -3 fold?
In 2019, researchers in the Netherlands secured samples of the marijuana that was then being purveyed in Dutch coffeehouses.
The researcher’s analyses of the multiplicity of samples that they obtained revealed to them that the average concentration of THC in contemporary marijuana was not 2-3 times as great as it had been in the 1970s and 1980s but 19 times as great, so great, in reality, as to possess hallucinogenic potential corresponding with that of LSD.
The ruinously deleterious effects of marijuana exposure, on the individual and society, remain obscure only to those who refuse to associate that which is associable and to correlate that which is correlative.
Yes, 2-3 x :
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2015/03/23/pot-evolution-how-the-makeup-of-marijuana-has-changed-over-time/
Moreover, just because you can get that 3 x strength that is not to say it’s typical or easily acquired, or even that popular. In countries that have properly legalised it – ie not Holland – these factors are on the packaging, as with spirits, wine, beer.
“ in reality, as to possess hallucinogenic potential corresponding with that of LSD.”
You haven’t a clue. Your claims, and near paranoia affect, are such that one might wonder what you’ve been smoking. It is impossible to get the plant much over 25%, for much the same reasons as you can’t get an apple tree to make a basketball sized apple. A refined product called shatter exists with is 60%. Hard to get and very few people want it. I’ve used MJ since the 1980s, and still some today. I know how it has typically changed – about twice as strong now, and I simply use half as much.
Anyhow, what is your point? It has increased in strength so……..?
As I don’t know any dope smokers or druggies I cannot comment.. If people want or need such self destruction then I’m pleased to see them off into the deal box and the bone garden or behind the fire curtain..and we are well rid of them, but it and that should be their freedom of choice
Physiologically and medically not possible. You have something else causing your problem(s).
Post even one published medical paper to prove your statement. And I stress ‘medical’ (not some bought-and-paid-for “study”).
Remember professor David nutt!?
Nutt had criticised politicians for “distorting” and “devaluing” the research evidence in the debate over illicit drugs
Source:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/30/drugs-adviser-david-nutt-sacked
Also just remembered this, sorry unrelated to your original point but relevant to the article and contradicts the idea the red light district is awful, was broadcast a long time ago, the women’s institutes findings on brothels after touring Amsterdam and other places:
The pair went on the tour, which was filmed for a Channel 4 documentary, as part of a campaign started after the murder of five sex workers in Ipswich in 2006. Steve Wright, of Ipswich, is now serving life in prison.
Mrs Johnson proposed to her local WI the organisation lobby for brothels to be legalised. She was greeted with gasps but argues it is in the tradition of WI campaigns…. Source:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/tonight-s-w-i-lecture-brothels-of-the-world-6880306.html%3famp
If as many people smoked cannabis as drank alcohol (and as heavily if you could calculate a like for like) I’d wager you’d find it causes just as many if not more problems for society at large as alcohol does.
While the deaths and fighting may be lower, the surge in mental health and respiratory illnesses would more than compensate.
Now personally I think it would be easier to legalise it, banning it has never stopped people partaking and it’s a source of revenue for unlawful people, but this false equivalence with alcohol as a justification I find tiresome
November 2010
Alcohol is more harmful than heroin or crack when the overall dangers to the individual and society are considered, according to a study in the Lancet.
The report is co-authored by Professor David Nutt, the former government chief drugs adviser who was sacked in 2009.
It ranked 20 drugs on 16 measures of harm to users and to wider society.
Heroin, crack and crystal meth were deemed worst for individuals, with alcohol, heroin and crack cocaine worst for society, and alcohol worst overall.
The study by the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs also said tobacco and cocaine were judged to be equally harmful, while ecstasy and LSD were among the least damaging.
Source:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-11660210.amp
Oh come off it, if you seriously believe that alcohol is more dangerous than skag or crack then I’ll find it hard to have a serious conversation with you.
If there were as many heroin users as there is drinkers society would fall apart at the seams
LOL yeah I really don’t want to make the argument for banning alcohol, it was more about setting policy based on science though I was using to support the argument that cannabis is low harm, based on real science.
I’ll be honest without pulling up the lancet paper I couldn’t get into it too much, did you take a look at the chart? Just interesting to compare cannabis to others, I’m really not making a case for crack or heroin America has enormous opiate issues atm. But the study was done for the government to advise them on drug classification policy:
The findings run contrary to the government’s long-established drug classification system, but the paper’s authors argue that their system – based on the consensus of experts – provides an accurate assessment of harm for policy makers.
“Our findings lend support to previous work in the UK and the Netherlands, confirming that the present drug classification systems have little relation to the evidence of harm,” the paper says
So heroin and crack are still charted right at the top 3. It was all to with trying to base drug policy on actual science, the government didn’t like the science and they sacked the poor guy. He’s done a fair bit about it if you search him, he is a real professor, I think he seems pretty genuine but that’s just my humble opinion.
Sorry Billy – I like and appreciate your comments in particular- but you are very wrong on this. I am both ‘booze and MJ positive’ …just can’t abide the demonisation of either. Pointing out the blinding hypocrisy between accepting alcohol and freaking out about MJ is one way I react. BTW if you ate, or smoked MJ pure there would be no respiratory problems – It’s mixing with tobacco thats bad that way. Beyond a shadow of a doubt booze is more harmful – a figure of 100 x so often gets bandied about – rough guesstimate for sure, but about right.
I agree, I’d have both legal as it doesn’t bother me at all. I’ve never enjoyed the weed really, always preferred the party drugs in my youth.
My opinion is based on nothing but my own observations, but all the boys I know who smoke it regularly are definitely slower than the drinkers. It definitely affects the brain more than alcohol in my opinion, although alcohol destroys the liver so it’s no better or worse