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Our national conversation on Shamima Begum, which ebbs and flows according to the imperatives of Begum’s legal team and a simultaneously cynical and naïve mass media, is saturated in bullshit. For her detractors, the 23-year-old East-London runaway is a danger to national security and must never be allowed back into the UK. For her supporters, she is a victim of grooming by terrorist recruiters and must be returned to Britain.
The last time Begum hit the headlines it was because she’d had a makeover. This was exactly a year ago: gone was the bulky black burqa, and in were the skinny jeans, Nike baseball cap, sunglasses and pink nail-varnish. Had a new beauty salon opened up in Al-Roj, the arid and austere holding-pen in north-east Syria where Begum is housed, alongside other former female Isis members and their children? It seemed unlikely, but Begum had somehow got her hands on a new bit of clobber and wanted the whole world to know about it.
Subliminally, the message seemed to be: I’m not one of them – them being the burka’d ghouls she’s detained with and who routinely throw dirt and blood-curdling insults at visiting Western journalists. No, she was saying: I’m one of you, a normal British girl who you wouldn’t look twice at in the street. The sort of girl her former comrades-in-arms want to blow up in nightclubs.
Begum has again returned to the block caps of front-page news. This time it is because the Sunday Times journalist Richard Kerbaj has a book to flog: The Secret History of the Five Eyes. The book, which is about Western spycraft and was published this week, claims that Begum was smuggled into Syria aged 15 by a Syrian man who was leaking information to the Canadian security services about Western Isis recruits. Begum, with her legal team, has also been working with the BBC on a 10-part podcast series that is due to air any day now: you’ll be hearing a lot more about her in the coming weeks and months.
In his book, Kerbaj recounts how Mohammed al-Rashed, a people-smuggler who worked for Isis, helped Begum and her two schoolmates, Kadiza Sultana and Amira Abase, cross from Turkey into Isis-controlled territory in Syria shortly after they flew from London to Istanbul on 17 February, 2015. According to Kerbaj, al-Rashed had photographed the girls’ passports and sent the images to his handler with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) at the Jordanian embassy. But by the time the handler had received news of the girls’ travel, it was too late — they were in Syria. Al-Rashed is thought to have helped many more Britons migrate to Syria to join Isis.
This revelation about Begum is not actually all that revelatory: The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation ran a story on it in March 2015. But it didn’t attract much interest at the time. Kerbaj, the BBC and Begum’s legal team and her apologists want to change that, refocusing the story on how Begum was trafficked and how the West had a hand in it.
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SubscribeA ten part BBC podcast series?
Why does the BBC so hate Britain?
Defund the BBC NOW.
Shamima Begum should remain in her chosen part of the world indefinitely. We non-elites really don’t want her back.
How do you know thè BBC podcast is anti-Britain? I should have thought it likely to be quite the opposite? Have you seen a preview?
The idea that she was a naive victim might work if she lived on top of a remote mountain or in some lost valley but in 21stC Britain? Eh, no..
15 year olds know everything these days and are usually victims of nothing other than their own mindless arrogance!
Well, 15 year olds think they know everything, but we all know that they do not! They are children still.
If she is ever allowed to return to the UK I think a 10 year prison sentence would about right.
The ‘story’ of Ms Begum being ‘trafficked’ by a fully paid up member of the Canadian secret services is typical of the half truths that pass for ‘the complete truth’ nowadays. Not that the ‘credulous’ public are fooled, they know fine well it is nothing more than a fig leaf to justify scabrous entreaty. Co-opting a ‘villain’, by threat of jail, blackmail, or promises of future favours, does not make a villain any less villainous, or indeed, a fully paid up member of the organisation that ‘exploits’ them.
There might be far more sympathy for Ms Begum’s return to the UK, if it was felt she would face the full weight of the law, rather than allowed to quietly slink away (because it’s far to difficult to actually find evidence or prosecute someone, when you’re down on one knee, or indeed, having a knees up in a conga line). No doubt she (and her lawyers) would also be handsomely compensated at public expense (shut up and go away money) for all the hurty things said about her by the British state and it’s citizens. Can anyone doubt that a book deal, and feature length film, is not in the offing ? Ken Loach, I’m sure, would do a superb job of totally exonerating Ms Begum, in the eyes of a credulous public (or at least those in North West London) as a helpless victim of the race-ist British state.
Spot on. My former employer would probably offer her a lecturer position.
Ms Mrs is absolutely hilarious. Likewise the presumption.
Btw Ken Loach doesn’t need to make a film. Peter Kosminsky had already done a for-part TV series for Channel 4, The State, in 2017 which tells of four young Britons (one of whom has a small boy alongside) were seduced into travelling to Syria. Only the mother and son survive to return via Turkey, boat and plane, only to be detained and separated by the authorities on their return to England; her disavowal of the terrorists and offer to broadcast are deemed worthless; only to become an underground agent would do.
If only you knew, you could have disparaged it without bothering to view.
When Kosminsky’s four-parter was aired on Channel 4 it was instantly denounced by some (without viewing) as an apologia for terrorism. In fact it showed up the evil of the Caliphate warts and all. The stories tell of more people than just the four young British muslims who ventured forth, but also of others who likewise mostly met unfortunate ends, their non-violent idealism having been destroyed.
Somehow Kosminsky had negotiated permission to film parts of the story actually within Raqqa which augments the verisimilitude of the production. Rather bravely, surely.
If any of those now heaping odium upon Shamima and her two friends had watched this mini-series then they might have paused for thought.
Btw Peter Kosminsky is an accomplished film director and no apologist for Islamists.
Neither am I, but I am a humanist.
‘Their Non-violent idealism having been destroyed ‘
What utter bullshit ! These girls were Islamist ideologues before leaving Britain and Ms Begum made clear to the journalist who originally found her she was totally ‘unfazed’ (her word ) by the severed heads . Islamism is very very violent and these girls knew it .
Isis propaganda , which Shamima and her friends had been gloating over , was notoriously bloodthirsty .
The author is entirely correct in his assessment of Begum’s culpability. I expect that it’s the same people who claim that 15 year olds are mature enough to consent to life altering “gender” surgeries who will insist that she was some sort of naive victim. It really does get tiresome…Where I must part company with the author is in his assessment of her dangerousness and the suitable punishment for her actions. She remains, in my opinion, a serious threat to Great Britain. If repatriated she will become a symbolic figure among extremists and she will, by her very presence, exert a dangerous influence over others. Her return would advertise the government’s weakness and encourage other bad actors. Even if she is no longer a threat, I do not consider permanent banishment to be “callous”, “irresponsible”,”illiberal” or “pathologically harsh” under the circumstances. She supported and enabled a monstrous regime that committed unspeakable crimes. It seems like a suitable form of retributive justice to me.
I suppose you think the white girls sexually enslaved by predominantly Pakistani heritage paedophile gangs in the UK were also making an informed choice?
Your question is absurd.
Begum did what she did because of Islam, the rape gangs did what they did because of Islam, ISIS did what they did because of Islam.
No need to bring predictable identity politics into this debate Martin, and I think it somewhat tasteless to use those unfortunate and woefully neglected girls from Rotherham etc. to make a seemingly cheap point. This really has NOTHING to do with them or what they suffered whatsoever. The debate (remember!) is whether or not Ms Begum should be allowed to return to the UK and I think (as a fellow British citizen of mine) she very much should be. Just because her return would present inevitable difficulties that does not mean we can just run away and shift the problem onto others. She is a product of our society; so let her return, face the music and give as little press coverage as possible.
But my concern is that she will never be out of our faces and pushed into our consciousness. There will be acres of newsprint and digital print. TV interviews,guest on shows,radio,alternative artists doing artwork of her,all the demi-monde befriending her,book deals,film deals,and the local authority will have to offer her a social housing place thus depriving someone more needy or are you GOING TO OFFER HER A HOME? Thought not.
She’ll team up with her husband again and go back to producing little islamists. Her supporters are very quiet about him
Begum is not a product of our society. Utter rubbish. She is the product of the Islamic religion. Get that straight, now.
She won’t avoid the media -she’ll make a nice income from it. Columns, articles, podcasts, TV series, you name it, they’ll all want her. She’s ‘click attracting’ and advertisers will pressure all to have her on a program. She’ll likely make a fortune. What a great look that will be for promising jihadi’s.
I would imagine a column in the Guardian at the very least…
Actually they were because when I was 15 in 1970 we,my peer group of girlies were being continually told by all media that existed that it was our right to do sexual intercourse and if we didn’t we were nasty,selfish prudes and clones of Mary Whitehouse and having sex was a badge or sign of being adult,a self determining adult,and having a boyfriend solved all your problems. Jackie magazine said so.
Did “Jackie” magazine tell you to go and have it off with loads of fat old foreign men for money, free booze, drugs etc?
I’m of the same generation as you. Only I thought for myself and decided to follow my own path – which was to save sex for someone who cared about me, rather than indulge some uncouth yobbo who just wanted to get his leg over without consequences. And I grew out of reading Jackie long before I hit my 15th birthday.
To be fair to Jackie magazine there was lots on make up and boyfriends and pop stars and having fun. But there was lots on family life, pets, respect for yourself and others, friendship, school work and listening to mum and dad.
A few years ago I bought my daughter a little book, a compilation of Cathy and Clare, the Jackie problem page. It was a stocking filler I actually remembered some of the problems. Underneath the style the actual advice was about as moral as, Mary Marryat in my aunt’s Woman’s Weekly.
I read quite a wide range of magazines.
IF she is ever allowed back, which I don’t personally think she should be, then it should be to a very long prison term.
That won’t happen. The clever lawyers will get her off. There is money in it for them. There is a good reason the words “criminal” and “lawyer” fit together so well. She is beautiful so it won’t take long for her to have all the grannies onside and the men championing her,after all lovely people are good and ugly people do all the murders and torture,and extortion and eco-killing and everything bad. So as she’s beautiful stands to reason she can’t have done one single bad thing. Hey,she might want her husband to join her here,it’s her RIGHTafter all.
Beautiful? Hmm…
Ugly inside and out .
I’ve done a lot worse
“I expect that it’s the same people who claim that 15 year olds are mature enough to consent to life altering “gender” surgeries who will insist that she was some sort of naive victim.”
Well said.
‘“I had no problem with the severed head they showed me” SB
“And I have no problem with her remaining with her kindly and compassionate fellow believers in Syria.” MK
Her detractors have it absolutely correct: “She is simply an untrustworthy villain who deserves zero sympathy, so she shouldn’t speak at all. She is a symbol of everything wrong with weak, Islamist-friendly, woke Britain.” The author’s sentence says it all.
Something I’ve never understood about Begum and all the others is the bizarre way we seem to insist on extraterritoriality in the middle east as if the 20th century didn’t happen and we still had a global empire.
Whatever crimes she may or may not have been party to took place in Syrian territory, yes? So let the Syrian justice system deal with her. Or the north-Syrian-Kurdish one, depending on what administration we recognise as legitimate.
It’s a particularly ironic position for the progressives to hold.
Yes – this is the issue. My only fault with an excellent, nuanced article is that it presupposes that she’s our responsibility.
She committed crimes in Syria and so therefore should be tried there.
Trouble is, it’s now about optics; the UK cannot now hand her back over to either death or imprisonment in inhumane conditions, and the Kurds don’t want the headache of having to deal with her and the negative image it will give of them to many sectors of Western media/public.
It isn’t for the UK to do anything. She is not a UK citizen.
The move to deprive her of her UK citizenship was almost certainly dubious under international law and based on the rather dubious idea that she will not be stateless as she would be entitled to Bangladeshi Citizenship, a claim that may not stand up to investigation
If the UK wishes to be regarded as a great power then it should behave like one. Great powers do not dump their problems on the rest of the world. She is our problem and we should deal with it, she should be brought back to the UK, tried for those offenses committed which transgress UK law and be punished for the.
She is not going to melt away however much you would like her to; if she is not allowed to return then she may well find a way into the UK under a new identity in such a way as she cannot have an eye kept on her.
She is not alone, there were many who were inspired to go to fight for Isis most of whom scared themselves silly when they discovered what things were really like and came hot foot back to the UK
I’m sure that societies refusal to allow me to buy a house to live in despite me earning good money is or was in breach of international law too but no ones ever given a stuff.
If she had the misfortune to look like me no one,certainly not the media,would give a stuff either. In fact her Muzzie brothers would probably have cut her throat years ago. Shamima has got the same gift that Diana had,looking both immensely virginal and immensely shagworthy at the same time.
Oh dear..
What’s the problem?
She is not a British citizen and therefore not our problem.
Great powers don’t coddle people who commit treason and actively support their enemies, at least not if they want to continue being great powers.
Oh yes, if we are to be a “great power” we must always accept the blame for the foolishness of others and take in known members of a terrorist organisation to appease the sensibilities of those who in all likelihood won’t have to deal with her.
Making her a British citizen would be an act of generosity without wisdom. And there are enough of those in the world. Perhaps now with this new information she can apply to be a Canadian citizen?
Many of us feel the that this foolish woman should be made an example of.
And she has been.
She actually condoned the Manchester bombings, she should be brought back, I agree, then beheaded and her head stuck on a spike and paraded as a deterrent, as in days of old, they knew how to treat traitors then.
Isis propaganda videos were utterly choc a bloc with slaughter and execution . Who are these sweet little innocents who ‘scared themselves silly when they discovered what things were really like and came hot foot back to the UK ‘?
Its our White Saviour Complex. Not all of us. But journalists etc. The ones with “voices”
Pity no reporters or commentators seem to have researched for Information about the encouragement of ISIS support amongst young Muslims that was generated by older males being allowed to operate seemingly unchecked and in full public view to the disbelief and dismay also of many Muslim residents in Tower Hamlets for at least two years before Shamina Begum left for Syria.
Of all the quotable quotes, this one stands out. “Far from being trafficked to Syria against her will, Begum wanted to go there because she felt it was a divine duty to join Isis and help build the nascent caliphate.”
Begum is a manipulative fraud. She cynically changes her appearance to persuade us that this reflects her beliefs. She might not be a trained killer in the sense of explosives knowledge. But she has the capacity to be the pin up girl for Islamist radicals. She will need monitoring by the security services. It takes a team of around 25 to provide round the clock surveillance. If they watch her, they can’t watch someone else. And if they watch someone else, they can’t watch her.
Leave her where she is. It’ll also serve as a warning to others.
Excellent comment.
You are correct – sometimes it is the boring logistics that are the key to decision making – what is actually physically and economically possible are the real parameters in a world with diminishing resources and increasing demands on them !
I wonder why she has not remarried and settled in the part of the world which she chose to adopt. She not only willingly accepted an extreme interpretation of Islam but maintained her beliefs beyond the end of the conflict, according to interviews with her at that time. She will speak the language now and her children would be brought up amongst those with the same cultural background..
I fear that once she is here (with citizenship regained) a “husband” will appear for the police to keep track of at taxpayer’s expense.
But she has Bangladesh citizeship. And her family have moved to bangladesh . So she has a safe country to go to.
No she does not and Bangladesh has made known its hostility towards her. There goes your comfort blanket; wither now conscience?
Yes they threatened to execute her, where can I make a donation towards her exportation ?
Bangladesh have rejected her as a citizen. If her family is there then she has a place to go to. What about her husband…if we have her back we will get 2 for the price of 1. I do not believe that they have rejected the ISIS ideologies – they would have been vocal about it if they had. She remains a threat and anyway, she is hated here. There is every possibility that she will be killed.
Isn’t Begum suspected of holding a Yazidi woman as a slave? Yazidi women have certainly claimed that ‘ISIS brides’ were exceptional cruel to them.
Yo man! Suspected? Name your source.
Yo man. Suspicion is good enough,
I’m pretty sure she would have headed up one of the female enforcement teams who were legendary for their sadistic cruelty to other women. I DO NOT believe she stayed in her house all day cooking and cleaning. She had a western education. She would have been long subject to the “women who stay home all day cooking and cleaning are boring drudges” indoctrination.
In Ireland we have has a similar case, that of “Isis bride” Lisa Smith, a white convert and defence forces veteran, who went to Isis territory. She is now back and is being processed by our legal system but there is no proposal to remove her citizenship. People who joined Isis should be treated exactly the same way as domestic terrorists.
To all the people saying “She was born in Britain, therefore she’s our responsibility” — why? There’s no fundamental law of the universe saying that everybody has to be the responsibility of the country of their birth, or of any country in particular, for that matter. Shamima Begum committed treason against the United Kingdom when she ran away to join a genocidal, anti-western terrorist cult. I see no reason why we should be responsible for somebody who spat in our collective face that way, and if no other country wants to take her in either, well, tough sh*t, missy, you made your bed, now lie in it.
So I’ve only read half the article but I’m going to comment now before I resume reading. My “fear” in so far as it concerns me is that if she comes back here she will be the darling of the demi-monde. They are not quite so in the ascendant as they were but I mean the writers,comics(so called),wits,tv producers,all those creative people who like to “walk in the wild side” a bit and disturb the bourgeoisie(like me) by championing the undefendable. They’d have her on their radio.shows,their TV shows,they’d write features on her. If she was plain or even ugly she wouldn’t stand a chance. But then her Muslim brothers wouldn’t have wanted her either. It’s highly likely that she took part in,or probably headed up a team of women isis fanatics who patrolled the streets looking for sisters they could inflict nasty punishments on. The excuse could be a gown a few centimetres too short,a headscarf a few centimetres too far back,any stupid little thing. She is highly intelligent,she was in the top few at her school,the ones who were a shoo-in for university. She excelled. In no way was she trafficked.
But she certainly needed an enabler to get her across the border and to the right people. In WE2 escapees needed a guide across the pyrenees,its always the way. No one can.do this thing by themselves. But just because she was savvy enough to be able to contact the right people DOES NOT mean she was trafficked. If 15 is too young for sex,and too young for making ANY independent decisions whatever why do some people advocate 14 years be able to vote. Knocks THAT argument out of the water. If I said that aged 15 my one life ambition was to be a housewife and tend my garden (which actually it was!!) I’d get thoroughly lambasted as a traitor to feminism,we were all supposed to aspire to be Governor of the Bank of England or CEO of British Steel or something. But when Shammy the Sham says “I was only a housewife,wife and mother. I just cooked and washed up. That’s all I wanted to do” everyone goes,”Aw bless” instead of “What an ungrateful shocking waste.of a costly western education”. I do happen to think that a lot of what passes for education in.many schools is inadequate and wrong but I haven’t gone and joined an insurgency.
Fantasy
But you are already here to hold torch for Ms Begum.
Sounds very much like you are an admirer, careful , it’s people of like sympathies who are easily radicalised.
If she’s allowed back the media will be all over her, clamouring for exclusive rights and offering large sums for her “truth”. A ‘Shamima, the Movie’ could be in the pipeline, anything’s possible. She’ll make an undeserved fortune, much of which she’ll give to her favourite charities, like the ISIS disabled veterans fund.
Yes, a very likely scenario if she is allowed to return. Hopefully the new PM, Liz Truss, has other ideas, however.
I thought there was evidence she did more than have babies. It took place in Syria. She should be tried by them with the Kurds.
Hardly, if that were true then surely they would have done so.
“
Shamima Begum.
Pre-teen white working class gang rape victims.
Attitude of the BBC, Grauniad and the UK authorities.
Compare and contrast.
If kids can decide to take puberty blockers, they can by the same token decide to join a radical Islamist group. In both cases the consequences should fall upon them.
Omitting to notice that such kids’ decisions will have been “assisted” by adults
Don’t be a mouthpiece for the Terrorists MD.
They only have to get lucky once
JP I fail to see how making an observation on something real is voicing support for terror. Au contraire
Is there evidence to that effect? Even if true she still.had the option to reject it didn’t she? God knows most 15 uear olds reject nearly everything told to them by adults don’t they?
If all 15 years olds refused to do what any adult told or advised them to do them we wouldn’t need to be up in arms over the trans agenda or grooming gangs or paedophiles. Unfortunately not all kids to push back and many are vulnerable which is why we, as adults still need to watch out for them and why we have an age of consent being higher than 15 and don’t allow children the vote. The fact the she was 15 when she left the U.K. does not sit well with me, however the slim possibility that she could be de-radicalised died with her last unborn child. If she wasn’t 100% a threat to the U.K. before she 100% is now. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
Well it’s pretty clear that adults would have created the propaganda which seduced the girls in the first place and adults will have facilitated their journey from Turkey to Raqqa, whether or not a Canadian agent was involved (plausible perhaps irrelevant).
Likewise transitioning gender/sex entails adult participation and encouragement.
At the end of the day at 15 years old the ultimate decision is theirs. How many 15 year olds do you know who wouldn’t be fazed by severed heads and would condone INNOCENT children being blown up.
This Isis propaganda videos she ogled were notorious for showing executions by beheading , something she admitted she was unfazed by ( seeing a severed head in reality). She made a huge effort to get to Isis controlled Raqa and may even have helped prepare Yazidi girls to be Isis sex slaves
“But there’s no credible evidence to show that she fought for the group “
Wasn’t there a photo of her holding a severed head and allegations that she engaged in beatings and forced Yaziri women to submit to rape?
Nope. You have a vivi imagination.
You cannot apply even hand to this argument.
You probably, with your tea-light mates will be the first to scream when she facilitates a bomb in the UK.
She’s safer where she is. She is the UK’s standpoint on anyone else that wants to go.
And you are in denial, either that or you support the piece of trash.
I disagree with the author on the remedy for Begum, she’s a traitor and what she did is beyond the pale and unforgivable,she must never be allowed to return to the UK to serve as a example and warning to all British Islamists of what will happen to them if they even consider joining a Islamic Extremist group. While were at it her entire family should be deported and stripped of citizenship for attempting to normalise her treasonous behaviour. There’s no room for forgiveness when it comes to Treason and that is what she’s guilty of turning her back on her country and siding with it’s enemies.
Well said .
‘I, for one, relish the day when Begum will speak for herself,’ Me too. In fact, it should be a prerequisite for any consideration of return; a full, names, dates, places, means, etc statement who why she was attracted to the IS ideology, who influenced her, what part her parents, mosque, community, friends etc played in her ideas and decisions, what she saw and what part she played while a member of IS, the whole deal. She has suddenly ‘remembered’ the part al-Rashed supposedly played, so she can presumably remember the rest. That would be a clear demonstration of her regret, would help prevent other young people being groomed and suckered in, and to bring the real perpetrators to book. Her choice; stay and stew, or show you own your ‘mistakes’.
It seems to me that Shamima Begum, now dressed in Western attire, wants the best of both worlds. Now that her precious ISIS cannot support her anymore she yearns for the comforts of Britain. She is still married isn’t she? If she is, then, according to the Islamic faith, surely he is responsible for her. She stole from her own family and lied to them to get what she wanted. This is who she is.
Three years is a remarkably lenient sentence for treason, quite apart from all the things she’s accused of doing once she actually got to Syria.
How anyone can think that she can speak honestly baffles me. She’s a marked woman for the rest of her life and would be lacking in self-preservation if she spoke out against ISIS. I was a resourceful 15-year old girl once, I made bad choices…..
Why no mention of the legal system of Syria, the country in which she is accused of having committed crimes? Let the Syrian’s authorities try her, if they believe that she has committed crimes.
..and we presume that’s where the evidence exists as well
How would British police ho about collecting the evidence: at brst very costly: at worst a waste of time due to language and cultural differences. Trial in Syria seems the obvious way forward. Of course she will not be tried for treason there. Only a UK court will do that: and that would be prima facia a done deal!
I believe her supporters and her lawyers hate Britain and are on the side of its enemies. Ask yourself if there’d be the same support and campaign if she’d run off to be a neo-Nazi bride in Russia at the age of 15?
Begum would probably point to an unfairness in the process, comparing her treatment with that received by others. And she might be right.
I think that we should have arrested her, brought her back, and jailed her for whole life, for treason. She is, after all, “one of ours” more than she is one of Bangladesh’s – so we should take responsibility for her.
But I am glad that we didn’t do that, as I have absolutely no confidence in our institutions or judicial system to perform as I have said here, and as I think that they should. So I’m glad she’s not here – and beyond that I am just very happy not to have to think of her at all.
But she isn’t, “one of ours” She is the the product of a discredited and barbaric culture.
You are referring to Islamic culture, one assumes, not Western culture as she experienced in 21st century London?
Of course I am referring to Islamic culture. There is nothing Western about Islam.
Does Britain have an extradition treaty with Syria? I would guess not, so is there a legal means to request her back? She committed crimes in a foreign land and is thus subject to that country’s laws, just as British citizens in say, Indonesia can expect the harshest of punishments if they deal in drugs.
In Singapore any drug dealer, regardless of country of birth, are put to death, very little crime in Singapore, our government could certainly take a leaf.
Javid had sight of information provided by the security services of the crimes she participated in and made his decision on that basis. It is the duty of the Home Secretary to protect the British public from dangerous individuals and organisations.
When first discovered by a journalist she was totally unrepentant . How do you know she still isn’t that way and her supposed changed views aren’t just to get back to the UK ?
I recommend the Swedish series called Kalifat on Netflix. it is ostensibly a thriller but includes a very interesting and chilling portrayal of opinionated teenagers being radicalised. I believe most teenagers are children and, under benign and wise influences, start to emerge as morally complete beings from 18 onwards. the internet has facilitated the subversion of our teenagers by malign influences who use them for their own political ends. this case takes what is happening to all our children to the ultimate extreme. we talk about it but do nothing. parents can be a very mixed bag but they have one defining and vital feature: in the main they have their children best interests at heart. we must reclaim our children.
1) “This ought to be enough punishment to cleanse her of the imperious arrogance and idiocy that animated her to join Isis.” It ought to be, but is it?
2) “This seems unlikely, because no one is really interested in hearing Begum’s unfiltered thoughts about all this.” I suspect at least a few people would be interested in hearing her thoughts.
3) Who the heck is Begum? Why is she being singled out? I suspect someone is promoting her.
Nice piece. Though as a criminologist, Simon is bound to conclude that everyone is redeemable, just as a Christian is bound. For me, however, anyone who knowingly initiates life-threatening or life-changing serious violence, and more so systematic violence of that kind against others automatically forfeits their right to live, and there should be no exceptions. The “rationale” for their action is irrelevant. It’s about everyone else’s “lived experience” and natural justice. And it’s not that hard.
We should not let her, or any more of her kind, back in. In fact, if there’s a lot of them (Jihadi brides) living together in close proximity in some camp in Syria, I could think of a pretty quick and definitive solution……
Wonderfully balanced and insightful argument. Thank you
Haramic hairstyle. Sinful creature.
Brilliant article. And while I might be harsher on Begun, I feel she’s our responsibility, not Syria’s, which has enough problems of its own. She should come back to Britain, to face justice, and in an ideal world, work with the authorities to prevent this happening to others.
She would inevitably be acquitted for a lack of evidence. That isn’t “justice”
Neither is presumption of guilt. FCOL she already conceded she went of her own volition, so let her explain herself.
Yes she can do that via a sworn Affidavit taken by one of these parasitic do gooder lawyers who are hanging around her hoping for there 15 minutes of fame. In the beginning when she was tracked down by a journalist she imagined that she would have the automatic right to either return or be returned to the UK, hence her giving it all the mouth. It was only when she realised that was not going to be the case that the world is now seeing this amazing turnaround. Tough as it may be “You made your bed, now lye in it”.
“..she already conceded she went of her own volition, so let her explain herself”
Damned herself then hasn’t she? There is nothing more to explain.
Never, the happy clappers will hold demonstrations to have her welcomed back into the fold and this pathetic justice system will listen to them. Let her rot where she is, just as the heads of captives were left to rot in bins, a sight which she was proud to admit “didn’t faze her “.
Serious question: why does she have to be either state’s responsibility? She ran away to join a terrorist cult, let her cult take care of her.
She wants to come back to Britain to carry on the isis atrocities and martyr herself.
Finished reading. “I’m not a monster”…. no,Shammy dear,neither am I but society treats me like one because of my i’ll use the words “unfortunate appearance” the word Charles Dickens often used to describe females like me is “unpreposseing”,but we know he favoured teenage waifs. What I’m saying is,a lot of people from small children to rude old men,and male and female of all ages react to me with instant hostility and usually snide abuse ie if you confront them and call them out they can say,I’m just whistling or singing because I’m happy,aren’t you happy? or some such nonsense. Now Shammy the Sham is beautiful and I am sorry her baby died. We should have taken her in then,that was the right moment when she would have changed her heart,but we were vindictive and horrible. I know how it is to be treated by society,a society I live in but am not part of in any way. I think Shamima would find acceptance quickly,her grace and beauty would ensure that plus the
demi-monde arty types would champion her and vicars wife’s and daughters types too,the ones who marry serial killers.
Do all the ” virgins in heaven” look like her? wow? now…. where DID I put that semtex and timer?
I wonder if Simon Cottee has had a change of mind about allowing Bugum to return to the UK. The interview in 2023 by Andrew Drury tells it all. She’s a calculating, cold-blooded devotee of Isis, now and forever I reckon. Smart and clever enough to fool any officials who might have to oversee her behaviour if she was allowed to return.
“Begum, with her legal team…”
“…her legal team…”
“HER LEGAL TEAM” ffs!
She didn’t know what she was doing at fifteen some say. But these same people will say at fifteen you know enough you can medically transition from a man to a woman and vice versa. Which is it?
If returned she should spend time in prison.
The BBC has funding to make a ten-part series on Shamima Begum, but it has no funding to make a detailed documentary on the Rotherham girls!
We are bound to forgive our enemies and pray for them who persecute us. She is British. Charity begins at home.
This ought to be enough punishment to cleanse her of the imperious arrogance and idiocy that animated her to join Isis. Errrr NO! AND furthermore I have no doubt that this thing will eventually creep back in and every hack on the planet will be interviewing and therefore promoting and no doubt we will get Lorraine and loose women sympathy faces all round then the book and then another then a look at her hard awful life in the UK and awful Bethnal Green and the racism and no doubt bullying she has had to face that pushed her towards the bright lights of the caliphate .. all the while totally insulting the average Brit.. guess what .. NO, no no no! We, the thinking British public are sick to death of this sort of constant lie that perpetrated about us and it’s about time the British press genuinely ‘woke’ up to this! Baker can shove where the sun don’t shine and this foot in both camp article can too!
There is no way she was innocent, despite her recent claims of ignorance about what she was ‘really’ getting into. In her own words she, and her companions, watched all the Isis videos of slaughter, burning captives alive and beheadings which apparently didn’t put her off abandoning her family and travelling to join Isis. She would still be there if Isis had prevailed, continuing to aid and abet, whichever fighter she was assigned to as wife, to torture and murder.
“This, I think, is not only profoundly illiberal but pathologically harsh, and wholly disproportionate as punishment for her actions. It exhibits the sort of catastrophic hurt and wounded pride that one would expect of an Islamist who wishes death on all apostates”.
What a pathetic attempt at “even handedness”. The author attempts “balance” where none morally exists. Asking someone to be responsible for their actions, which caused death and torture to others and helped albeit in a small way a grotesque evil tyrannical cult is absolutely not equivalent to the murderous actions of that very cult! Some paths cannot be reversed. Would this author apply the same standard to Nazis?. I’d bet he would not.
She wanted to side with the Islamo-fascists – now she wants to come crawling back to the country she still loathes for the transactional befits (health care etc) she would get here. Utterly disgusting. I hope someone shoots her on sight.
Haha, why have my comments been deleted?
Because you are a plum.
Dear David,
Forgive me / I was in the icebox / so sweet / and so cold
But, seriously, the admin at unherd deletes comments they don’t like? Quite the little caliphate they’ve got incubating there! 😀
David, in my pouch I have a sling & stones if you evidently feel the pressing need to hurl some length of your self?—Consider the plum, won’t you? The plum is innocently pluming along, rolling away in shades of purple and violet, when abrupt the plum is beset of violence—fear is centerstage! (she manfully plays on holidays, you know) & it is Fear for breakfast & Fear for tea, obligingly is our plum feasting on Fear for supper & nibbles between. Before long the very dictates of her diet engender a change in she—our plum is plum out of options, but she faces her fear with aplomb. Latterly she finds she is fear itself become.
Condemnation is turtles all the way down, good Watts, you see— Condemnation breeds more & more of herself til she is well squared & cubed.Then you’re all draped in fear, David, & what you have is epithets & caliphates.
Ian,
You seriously talk a load of horse shit.
My Good David,
I admire your brevity.
I should only add, ye Lovelies, that compassion is a real thing, that is, it is an agent in the world, doing stuff, affectively. I have, as of late, been bestowed with the epithet of, ‘plum,’ which I wear rather handsomely, thank you, my David. But now that my David has sought and found and slung his stone, (taking courageous hold of his own plums or stones in the offing), I invite you all cheerfully to tea: Ms.B. presents us with a serious opportunity to interrogate ourselves, does she not? Where is the ultimate seat of our fear & can the ember ever be gone & done away with? Can we fear no god, can we fear no severe interrogation of our own dear selves? On the face of it, the repatriating Ms. B. is a gift, that we may occasion a glimpse into ourselves & see what comes up. On the other hand, Ms. B. is Gift, (from the German for poison). So, is Ms. B. a gift or Gift? Indeed, she is both. It is a simple matter of interrogating oneself to determine which to choose, gift/Gift.
she would make a fortune on ” Love Island”?
What harm can she do if she returns to Britain !!! Are you for real ?
That was meant for Nicholas taylor
Good article. Forgive her? She was a young teenager, after all, and she lost her child. Punishment enough? Maybe but forgiveness should come after any criminal proceedings are over.
One thing is 100% certain: she’s born and bred British and we have no right to dump our problem (her) on anyone else (Kurds, Syrians, Bangladeshis etc).
Whilst I agree that Begum is not an innocent victim, she was just 15 yrs old. How many of us had impossible ideological solutions when teenagers to the boring life we were suffering under our dull and boring parents, yet she boldly and stupidly went forth to conquer. And furthermore, she is female. A 15yr old boy would have received more sympathy, fact. Girls who don’t conform are always more harshly punished, yes even in the West where misogyny still reigns. She has without doubt been through hell, albeit a hell she brought on herself. A middle class, well heeled woman living in suburbia with three dead babies to her name would be in need of very tender mental health care. My guess is Begum is near insane now and we owe her, I believe a chance to recover here in the UK. Why? Because we’re more humane than the Islamist, are we not?
After reading this I was reminded of Astrid Proll. She was an active member of the Red Army Fraction terrorist gang in then West Germany, who escaped to England where she did various regular jobs. Who can know whether her years of good works were genuinely humanitarian or just a cover? Actually she was unrepentant of being an RAF member but said she disapproved of their violence. The parallel is weakened to the extent that the RAF was home-grown, though abetted by the Stasi and Palestinian terrorists. On the other hand, it is strengthened if we see Begum as home-grown in the UK and the particular acts of ISIS with which she is associated as directed against ‘The West’ including mainstream UK society. I am with the author, that it is not the proper behaviour of the UK’s or any enlightened democratic government to deprive someone of citizenship as a petty act of revenge to please a mob. It is also hard to see what harm Begum can do by returning to live openly in the UK whether or not she repudiates her belief in the objectives of ISIS. It is more important that our society firm up its secular democratic principles to resist psychotic religious cults – as well as political dictators. That is not to say that the relentless meddling and exploitation of foreign countries by British and other European or ex-European states in the past should not be acknowledged, but that is nothing new in history. It may be more difficult to get a grip on this in Britain because of its lack of a formal constitution. For example, there is little to stop religious sects from brainwashing children at school as well as at home, given that we still allow schools to be ‘owned’ by faiths.
A state has a duty to all its citizens, whether they are amazing people, pond scum, or somewhere in between. Shamima Begum was born in Britain, raised in Britain, and broken in Britain. Whether she is truly penitent, or still utterly toxic, she is our responibility.
What’s with the “our”? She is the product of her culture, not of mine. Get off your knees and stop the grovelling.
She committed her crimes in a foreign land, against people who had done her no harm. She should be tried in Syria and executed, if that is their judicial decision.
Exactly and the sooner the better. Her interviews and documentaries made about her are costing the British taxpayer, off with her head and let her be a warning to likeminded traitors.
She walked away from any responsibility owed to her. Let her rot, good riddance.
I have a question for the ‘throw her out’ brigade, whose comments are plentiful here.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of Shamima Begum’s actions (OK, almost entirely wrongs), the fact remains that she was born in Britain. She was a British citizen, until that was taken away from her.
There are several million people in Britain today, who were born here, but whose origins lie in South Asia, Africa or the Caribbean. I would be interested to know how you would explain to them that their citizenship is permanently provisional, that it can be removed if they fail to be good little boys and girls; and why you expect them to be unconditionally loyal to a country that does this to them?
Anybody who leaves Britain to fight for a hostile country should lose their citizenship, no matter what their ethnic background.
There is no evidence at all that she became, or wanted to be, a fighter
She travelled to a war zone to join an armed terror group. What more evidence does anyone need?
See above, my responses to Tom Lewis. In Peter Kosminsky’s docudrama it is plain that these young folk believed were joining freedom fighters. They were duped.
The mother was a nurse who thought she could tend the sick and wounded. She was soon disabused of such notions by the misogynistic regime. The doctor who showed her appreciation was manipulated out of the way. and killed.
As you are in favour of saying “proof ?”
Duped? She was a willing participant. And being an idiot doesn’t absolve anyone of criminal responsibility.
Cf Jack Letts
I was born in Britain, of Irish and Italian parents, and , no, I do not consider myself to be English.. being born in a stable does not make you a horse.
Feelings and facts. You were born in Britain and are consequently British. You do not feel English so presumably you were born in England. Passports are not issued on feelings, generally, but on facts. Your facts are you have an Irish parent and an Italian parent and can therefore apply for Irish or Italian, or both Irish and Italian, citizenship. I think in your case being born in a stable does make you a horse, but you can pasture in Ireland or Italy.
Excellent
I was born in the UK, and if I joined a terror group, I should be thrown out as well.
We have a load of Crappy People who we have talked ourselves into not dealing with rigorously.
Utter cr*p, she hardly failed to be a “good little girl”. She’s a monster and should rot in hell.
I see no particular reason to forgive her or understand her or help her to get back. But in a way that is beside the point. She is a British citizen. She has no other citizenship. Taking away her British passport on the excuse that she *might* be able to get another one is pettifogging nonsense and utterly unacceptable, whatever a judge may have been convinced to say. She has a right to whatever minimum level of support a British citizen is entitled to.
She had joint citizenship – British and Bangladeshi. We revoked her British citizenship, but Bangladesh are free to say they don’t want her and for some reason we’re not?
As I remember it, she did *not* have joint citizenship. The UK government claimed that having Bangladeshi (OK, not Pakistani) parents or grandparents, she *would be able* to obtain Bangladeshi citizenship. Which means that revoking her British citizenship makes her currently stateless. Which I thought was actually illegal and is certainly not acceptable. Either way, she is a UK problem, not Kurdistan of BanglaDesh one.
“Either way, she is a UK problem, not Kurdistan of BanglaDesh one.”
A problem that we have solved.
A problem you have illegally dumped on someone else – like fly-tipping. That is not a ‘solution’.
But it demonstrably is a solution. I see no reason to allow my country to be turned into a third world dump. Let the world of Islam look after its own cultural inadequacies. I accept no responsibility for this woman: Islam created her, so let Islam deal with her.
Maybe not but why do we have to provide a solution? We’re doing an excellent job keeping her where she is, long may she rot and all you happy clappers zip it.
As Rasmus Fogh says, she did NOT have Bangladeshi citizenship. The UK argument was that she ‘could’ have Bangladeshi citizenship – and Bangladesh, unsurprisingly, said that in the circumstances they would not grant it to her.
What! You mean they’re not as caring as us! How dreadful.
Because they have a lot more sense than some of the fans commenting on here.
Whatever rights she had as a British citizen,she left in the waste bin at Gatwick.
She is no longer a British citizen.
If she had actually been a dual British Bangladeshi citizen, there would have been no problem. She would now have been a Bangladeshi citizen and that would be the end of that. The point is that she had no other citizenship and is now stateless. Countries are not allowed to take away people’s only citizenship and make them stateless, and if the UK did it anyway, they are breaking the rules. I do not like her either, but you really cannot let governments break or circumvent their own rules out of spite.
And, Cassander Antipatru, she did not formally renounce her British citizenship – she just did something that we do not like.
The Uk are breaking the rules !!! Shame on us, and what did she do, commit treason against the Uk.
Why should a British citizen who renounces her country and goes to join a genocidal terrorist organisation which actively wants to destroy the UK be entitled to any support whatsoever?
She isn’t a British citizen.
Traitors to our country have no rights and no entitlement to any support.
Traitors have the right to being treated according to current law – just like anyone else. The law does not say that the government can administratively remove the citizenship of anyone they (or the public) do not like. Fortunately.
Great hatchet job, presuming like many other commentators to know her mind then and now. At least your humanitarian instinct kicks in eventually, but boy do you encourage the hate.
It is probable that she and her friends believed the propaganda that persuaded them of righteous cause against western oppression, as well as suggesting the romantic notions as you infer. Of course 15 year olds are savvy, but their world experience is limited.
It is also true that once within Daesh it was nigh on impossible to escape alive. Only once within would its true horrors have become evident.
Btw Begum is a title, not a surname, her name is Shamima.
You’re one of her legal team preparing the ground for her defence?
He definitely has something to do with her defending her as if he’s best buddies.
Mike Dearing A.K.A Abu Hamza.
Thus demonstrating your eagerness to leap to conclusions on the basis of no evidence whatsoever.
Btw are you aware that Daesh in Arabic is an insult? They so prefer the grandeur of being called ISIS on the Anglo channels.
Thank you for your valiant efforts, it annoys me no end when UnHerd commentators fail to address terrorists with their rightful honorific.
Her real name is scum.
She is “shackled to a script” to the same degree she was groomed and trafficked. This story is at its base about agency. I disagree with the author; I believe a lot of people would be interested in hearing the unfiltered story of the agent (Belgum) at the centre.
You may just be in a minority there, thank god.
A 15 year old girl cannot consent to sex; and in the USA at least, whether or not an underage girl “consents” to prostitution she is categorized as a trafficking victim.
Had she been 25 I might consider her a monster. But 15???
A 15 year old is a baby. Get her some serious help from an expert on cults and let her come home.
Quite so. 15 is 15, no matter the argument or form of persuasion, no matter the context or political leaning, 15 is 15. This human being had spent a mere 5,000 days on Earth. Her brain chemistry was yet unsettled; she was, neurologically speaking, in a state of increased disinhibition. It is a matter of simple compassion & understanding to let the lass back in, & for the cynics sardonically prophesying her book deals, lecture tours, etc.—why not? We can all learn from her story. What is at hand is a simple choice of compassion or discompassion, that is all.
Thats the kind of wooly 1970s thinking that has ruined a whole generation since..
Pray tell how
If you’ve got to ask, you’ll never know.
Lefty loonies never give up, even when they are fully aware they are talking cr*p. It’s a kind of self adoration, “look at me, I’m such a good person,” and if you don’t then I’ll spit my dummy out.
If a 15 year old can decide what gender they are surely they can also know the difference between right and wrong.
I now see many young women in Bradford wearing the burqa. Are they all forced to do so or do they all have a bit of the Begum in them?
It would be nice to think that these young women are just devout, but what if such devoutness expresses itself as a hatred of Britain and the west? What if to them Begum is a now a celebrity role model?
Alas, I don’t have any answers. Only questions.
Hi Paul,
Regardless of what is legislated regarding gender choice and age, etc., as I see the matter personally, all 15-year-olds, save the properly prodigious ones, which I give Ms. Begum is not, are categorically rather stupid, experientially speaking, just as I was & most of us were. The online propaganda ISIS disseminated was steeped in romanticism, as I understand it, which when combined with teenage disinhibition & what I presume must have been somewhat absent parenting, forgive me, made for the perfect storm for Ms. Begum to do what she did. Of course, she willed it so, in a rather local, immediate way, but as Schopenhauer said, “man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills.” As I said, it comes down to a simple matter of compassion. If the lass be let back in, keep an eye on her for sure, but I think scorn and exile is rather the small, avaricious type of posture.
And yet… now that she is older and (presumably) adult there are few signs that she has fully rejected the romanticism.
Of this I am unaware. I’m from the United States, & follow the story only as a matter of general interest. I’m sure those in England know more about it, which I can’t speak upon.
Nope, they follow their prejudice
Keeping loved ones safe isn’t prejudice, are you from the states too, or maybe it’s your full time “job” to defend her ?
It’s all coming out of the woodwork now. Makes sense, people who are fans of hers are from the USA, not at all involved . Therefore you can have an opinion but as it doesn’t affect you you won’t be take seriously. The alternative is to take her home with you, house her and wait for the Big Bang.
Beside the point. She wouldn’t need to reject is but rather recognise part of what had led her astray.
I would only add this, if it’s alright: is it not so that one human being is capable of being manipulated by another, especially by many acting together in devious congress? You must give that it is so. Is it not further so that teenagers are more vulnerable to manipulation? Again, one must admit that it is so. Given this, can we not reasonably agree that the young woman was manipulated?
As regards her passage from England to Syria, it’s not like she was some Joan of Arc in reverse, scrapping and clawing to realize a destiny bestowed by God. The passage of the young lady was facilitated every step of the way by ill-meaning characters operating in coordination at a level she could not possibly have understood.
Is what I say reasonable and factual? If it is, then I say again, compassion dictates the lass be let back in, albeit with somewhat restricted privacy.
Ian,
I think you are full of shit, we are discussing terrorism where people have had there heads chopped off etc. She knew full well what she was getting involved with a long while before she even left London. So forget all of your longwinded clever talk rubbish.
She needs a nice Jewish or Indian Hindu husband, were she be lucky enough and have the brains to want one.
Or a wholesome putting Britain first supporter.
A man after my own heart, upholder of the innocent, not a leftie do gooder who thinks terrorism can be cuddled away.
No, your comments are neither factual or reasonable, just the comments of a very deluded “fan”. Your comments are in fact an inhuman insult to every innocent person in the Uk.
You’re right Ian. I know I was incapable of making wise decisions a long time after I was 15.
We do indeed need compassion, but in this current woke climate I think many of us have compassion fatigue, as we are now expected to have compassion for the 10 year old who demands gender reassignment surgery, the man/woman who insists we refer to them as they/them, the black person who wants reparations for the slave trade, the ultra wealthy celebrity who wants our compassion for their anxiety/depression, and those in the LGBT community who think drag queen story time for kids is a good thing.
That said, some of the above do need compassion, and that’s the worry when compassion fatigue sets in. It means there’s none left when it is needed most.
Yes – I really wonder if everyone has forgotten what it was like to be 15 and idealistic, believing all sorts of nonsense passionately. And she’s not exactly had much chance since then to develop her understanding, even if she has, by dint of getting older, developed more chance of clear thinking (it is generally agreed that adolescence is a time of massive neurological development which isn’t completed until about 25 years old). If she were allowed to come home, I don’t think it would take long for her to grasp what had actually happened to her.
Completely agree. I hate how Unherd commentators conflate the youthful idealism of Isis with terrorism – beheadings and mass r*pes aside.
Or as an adult set up camp in the UK, carrying on what she set out to do at 15.
As I pointed out above, it takes a team of around 25 security service agents to maintain around-the-clock surveillance of a suspect. These agents are a very scarce resource. If they watch her they cannot watch another suspect and vice versa. She should stay where she is.
One might suspect that the greater threat would be towards her rather than from herself to others. Either way her life prospects as a stateless person with no means to travel to safety are pretty grim. What an indictment of our society.
She deserves everything she gets and hopefully she will rot where is.
She’s getting what she deserves. Or maybe not quite, hopefully she has a lot more coming to her. Maybe in the form of what she plotted for the British public. Eye for an eye etc.
Irrelevant and wrongheaded
Trust the lefties to support “their” Shammy.
How noble, how self righteous, the ultimate act of virtue signalling…by supporting and excusing a murderous terrorist. If she ever came back she would be a clear signal that extremist Islam is winning.
And be a rallying point for more of the same. And it’s already won over the lefties. Ain’t that just so Mr Dearing? Bet you’ve already got your “Free Shammy Begum” signs for your protest march. Why don’t you glue yourself to one of the headstones of the Manchester bomb victims? Or spray paint “Shammy is welcome” on a cenotaph.
I am not sure why you have received so many thumbs down. While she was over the age of criminal responsibility which is 10 in England or 12 in Scotland those who are under 18 are treated more leniently in the UK than adults because we recognise lower impulse control and ignorance can lead susceptible youths to do stupid and grotesque things. It is perfectly reasonable to point out that her enthusiasm for the Caliphate might have been influenced by her relative youth and hence a degree of naive stupidity. Apart from stealing her parents jewellery and embracing an ISIS fighter I am not sure what crimes she has committed.
However, while those who wish her returned peddle the false idea that she was trafficked to try to bolster her case instead of admitting the facts of her voluntary embrace of this barbaric cult there is bound to be scepticism about the desirability of her return.
I was 17 when I lost my virginity. I thought I was in a long term relationship. I was still enjoying reading Swallows and Amazon’s books. Saying yes marked to this day in my city as a person of no morals and depraved. I was over the “age of consent”. I didn’t know he was a cad. Every media influence told me sex was part of adulthood. Now fifty years later I still stand condemned. Not by God but by many of the smug bastards I live amongst. No one says,have some sympathy for her,she was a child,which mentally I realise now I was. I bet if you lived in my neighbourhood you’d be throwing rocks at me with the best of them.
You were an adult despite the books you read. Don’t compare yourself to a sadistic terrorist who thought the bombings in Manchester and beheadings of captured men were something to be proud of, and gloat about. Evil b***h should should rot where she is.
That’s a fair perspective Penny, I’m sorry you’ve received so many downvotes.
A baby doesn’t join a cult whose only purpose in life is to kill people who aren’t of their faith. I take it you are from the USA? In which case take her home with you, nurture the “little baby”. If you’re not from the UK then your comments are meaningless as she didn’t commit treason against your country.