This article is a testament to the degree to which identity politics has won.
50 years ago this story would’ve been about the bizarre behaviour of celebrities. The “otherness” would’ve been the celebrity lifestyle.
Now it is framed as a men versus women issue. The entire thrust of this article could be summarised as “in this particular instance our girl doesn’t look too good, so abandon her before the rest of the team gets tainted.”
This framing of everything into a “pick your side” binary is often a problem, particularly for men, in these comments.
How does one deplore everything about intersectional fourth wave feminism, while being entirely supportive of the objectives of what was once the women’s liberation movement, and acknowledging that the human race is flawed, women no less than men?
I’m not sure the author is ADVOCATING that it is all about men versus women. Traditional feminism did not naïvely suggest that all women are perfect, but was concerned with removing the very real legal and structural barriers against women, those created by the abuse of men’s greater physical power, and abortion ‘rights’.
Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
I don’t know anyone who thinks that Amber Heard isn’t guilty. A quick tour around many sites on social media will tell the author that this isn’t just being touted by men’s rights activists and the support for Heard is thin on the ground.
In fact she is seen as an abuser, a user (in many senses), a liar, a dangerous manipulator – we are indeed witnessing what she described herself as (though she was trying to make a joke) : trailer park. As for the leavings in the bed…… her jokes aren’t funny.
I think the problem Heard has is that the only actual evidence she can provide for Depp’s abuse is alcohol and drugs. He abused them a lot. No actual evidence he abused her. Him on the other hand….
Clearly they were a toxic couple and not role models for a healthy relationship.
This is on point, anything that Heard’s council brought to trial was either hearsay, speculation, or her witnesses were debunked. Even now Heard is trying to say that letters she wrote years earlier are proof of abuse even though its still classified as hearsay in a court of law. This isnt surprising though from a woman who does not understand the difference between “pledge” and “donated”.
Yes, it is mainly women online who are the most vitriolic of Heard. Some are fans of Depp but not all. Only the diehard feminists remain in her corner.
The feminist lobby who consistently shout, “believe [ALL] women [ALL OF THE TIME]!” want to bypass legal process and have accusation alone be proof of guilt.
Intriguingly, many in this group now appear to be calling for Amber Heard’s blood in a far more vocal way than most men are.
It’s a reminder that many in this lobby are quite mad – they want a world where punishment is meted out according to their personal whims, and by no other means. In one moment they want their chosen people to be listened to without requirement for evidence, and in other cases they want punishment (for Amber Heard) before the trial has been completed.
It’s also a reminder that the biggest risk women face is not usually aggression from men, but aggression from other women. Men are more prone to expressing aggression with violence, but women are more prone to expressing aggression through destroying your reputation, or maneuvering society against you.
Actually there is very good reason why this lobby are vociferous. They are concerned that Heard is damaging the case for the huge group of women who are genuinely abused.
I wonder why you say most? How the hell can you know?
All these domestic tragedies happen behind closed doors, it’s largely “he said she said”.
When women like Julie Bindel talk about “male violence “, I get very upset, I didn’t do. Let’s not do the same thing, some women behave in a cruel, manipulative way. Not many I expect, like relatively few men are violent thugs. Most people like a quiet life and to get on with those around them.
Your responses show an unwillingness to back up your claim that there is a “huge group of women who are genuinely abused” so you go after the commenters who challenge you.
After working many years in ER Departments as a physician I have seen abused women, abused men and unfortunately a fair number of women with behaviour similar to Amber Heard.
Venomous anti-male rhetoric has mushroomed in recent years. I remember walking through a university premises several years ago and being horrified at the plethora of notices advertising lectures, seminars, workshops and sessions, on the subject of ‘toxic masculinity’. Not only this, but the students’ work incorporated the ‘toxic masculinity’ angle and other woke propaganda they’d been fed by predominantly female teaching staff.
The normalisation of such virulent ideas and hateful philosophies is reflected in every facet of our divisive woke world, such as black lives matter, trans perspectives, the accepted racism of white supremacism, etc. We are in the midst of a horrifying disintegration into an era of darkness that may be unparalleled in human history.
William Shaw
1 year ago
Amber Herd is a perfect example of toxic femininity — playing the victim, lying, crying to manipulate, abuser.
Women made everything they don’t like a men versus women issue. They created the hash tags (BelieveAllWomen) and wrote books (I Hate Men, The End of Men, etc). Now men are starting to take notice. Be careful when you create a weapon. It can be used against you.
Last edited 1 year ago by William Shaw
Matt Hindman
1 year ago
Oh I’m sorry. What did the Me Too movement expect when they chose to become a hack political movement with slack standards over a serious social movement against serial sexual predators? Bonus points for “feminists” calling everyone who warned you where this would lead a sexist rape apologist (even if they were not a man).
Last edited 1 year ago by Matt Hindman
Max Price
1 year ago
It’s the pitiful victim culture we are in. Everyone is at it.
Last edited 1 year ago by Max Price
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
“In response to what some men saw as preferential treatment of women in family court cases, especially where custody arrangements, alimony, and divorce settlements were concerned.” This statement sets the tone for the article. No one can seriously suggest that this is not objectively true
Benedict Waterson
1 year ago
Most of the online hatred I’ve seen directed at Amber Heard is from women. The fact that women can be involved in fairly vicious rivalrous social relationships with one another is not really covered by the current fashionable identinarian prog feminist idea that women are all ‘sisters’ (comrades) in some imaginary harmonious political collective
Because it’s women like Heard who give the rest of us a bad name?!? Especially when she is being held up as representative of my gender! Not sure if Hollywood has anybody I’d pick for that role!
Should we be criticising women for wanting more evidence provided than simply “I’m a woman therefore I should be believed”. What’s the point of a trial if a person’s word carries more weight than evidence? And how blind is justice if the contents of your pants is considered relevant to your ability to tell the truth.
This article needs a decent editor. I couldn’t decide what the author was actually trying to say. Each time she seemed to make a point she countered it in the next paragraph. She also seemed to caricature various positions rather than give any nuanced understanding.
Please decide your position and attempt to support it.
Adrian Maxwell
1 year ago
A small point, I dont think Amber Heard is ‘sobbing on the witness stand’. She is pulling faces, employing tonal changes and appearing distraught. None of this involves the tear ducts. Ive never seen a victim of DV (female or male) act like this.
David McDowell
1 year ago
It’s ‘toxic feminism’ not ‘toxic femininity’.
John Ronning
1 year ago
What a different world it would be if we followed the simple requirement of the law of Moses that any accusation must be backed up by witnesses to be admissible, and that it is guilt, not innocence, that must be proven.
Jim R
1 year ago
Clearly an outlet called “UnHerd” is biased in this dispute. I wonder what “UnDepp” has to say?
Snomonkey Monkeypants
1 year ago
There are a few news articles that headline “why we must believe Amber” and “we shouldn’t use mental health in a abuse cases” and I’m not convinced by any of them. It’s time we start accepting that there are women who abuse and lie about it, just as there are men. Many of them probably have mental health problems and need help, not an excuse. I seem to recall people excusing Caroline Flacks abuse because “mental health problems” and now just avoid the subject altogether to focus on her being a “victim of suicide”, yet both the abuse she inflicted and her death were her choice.
Erin Prizzy has always stated that violence isn’t gendered, its simply violence and in her experience of running refuges, much abuse in DV cases is mutual.
AC Harper
1 year ago
I don’t know where the truth lies in this, but my rule of thumb is that there are fewer male victims than the mens’ activists would assert, but also fewer female victims than the feminists would assert. Plus a whole lot of people in the middle who share their victimhood in complex ways.
Slopmop McTeash
1 year ago
I watched a bit of the trial on Youtube the other day. Amber Heard is a pathalogical liar and something of a sociopath. It is both absolutely hilarious and worrying at the same time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY1WbMSXdtA
Last edited 1 year ago by Slopmop McTeash
ARNAUD ALMARIC
1 year ago
Does anyone in their right mind give a tinker’s cuss about this cretin?
We are observing the presumption of innocence being protected. Nothing else. Don’t over think it. It was the only defence Depp had, all the analysis is irrelevant. He can do it, because he is a celebrity, and thank god he is.
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Depp sued The Sun. This case is different in that he is suing her. He must feel he has everything to gain and nothing more to lose and I think he is entitled to do what he wants to do. He has never had accusations of violence against women before in his long life, yet Heard has in her short life.
Of course he is entitled to do whatever he wants, but the cases are very similar: the fact that the English case involved the publisher rather than Heard herself is a distinction without a difference.
The author seems to be saying this case is about men vs women (as opposed to two Hollywood narcissists airing their – literally – dirty laundry). But if one accepts that dubious premiss, why does she refer to ‘victims of interpersonal violence of any gender‘?
Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew D
Savelij Balalajkin
1 year ago
The multi-million Duluth industry around the globe is in danger! All this profitable venture, employing hundreds of feminists hinges on presupposition that female is
1) always a victim
2) never lies
3) the perpetrator is a patriarchal man trying to keep its outdated power over women using violence
Victoria Cooper
1 year ago
It is not beyond understanding that historically men have had great physical advantage over women and on occasion have used it. No surprise that women developed a more passive form of defence that could equally be used as a form of attack. Both sexes’ powers can be used as abuse, we all know that. So what is there to (long-windedly) write about?
ralph bell
1 year ago
Well balanced and illuminating article. Let’s hope the case marks a turning point in bringing people back to their senses.
MJ Reid
1 year ago
Why is it that demi ism has to take the hit when individual women turn out to be “at it”? Feminism has done so much good for both men and women and continues to do so. Maybe it is time to stop this culture of blame. To think about what can be changed and why it must change. Look at who survives abuse and how it is talked about. We know women abuse men and other women. It might be a small percentage – about 10% of all reported abuse, including sexual and paedophilia, is caused by wonen, but it needs to be called out for what it is, in the same way men’s abuse is..
But it is not the fault of feminists any more than it is the fault of men’s rights activists that talking about abuse has become so toxic. It is the fault of people not actually thinking about what they are saying, but simply reacting. Let’s all think more and react less.
What good has feminism done for men? It is a chauvinistic movement aimed at correcting past wrongs and like all such movements it overshoots once those aims have been achieved.
Consider the lack of attention given to the underperformance of men in higher education or boys at school, to name a couple of issues of concern to me. If it truly was a men’s movement as well, it would have pivoted strategies when these trends became apparent years ago.
So Edwin, do you think a woman should have a vote and a career and independent finances? I know plenty of men who celebrate that their women bring more to relationships and businesses than was the case through the ages.
Any change in society which results in women becoming more engaged with that society as a whole, and greater agency to act independently within it, can only be a positive for men. Only men who’re frightened of women would think otherwise; exhibit no.1 – the Taliban.
Why a positive for men? Because the deployment of the talents of half its citizens for the greater good results in economic and social advancements, thus benefiting all – including children, who see successful female role models.
As a commentator has pointed out, it is difficult to discern exactly the author’s position. In any event I dont see the Depp v Heard civil trial as a binary gender issue, despite the exciting temptation to shoehorn it into one of the modern world’s running sores. The trial and the broadcasting of it, is a fascinating post modern event for many complex reasons – form, content, context and, not least the vast question of wether litigation of any shape should ever risk being entertainment. My approach is to weigh the evidence, the sole issue being wether the allegation in Amber Heard’s op ed was true, it is accepted by both sides it was about Johnny Depp. That both parties lead a drink and drugs, jet setting, ‘celebrity’ (whatever that means) lifestyle is incidental prurience. There is one very simple issue at stake here.
The problem in my opinion is the silence by feminists with large platforms. For instance, i like Emma Watson the person. I think she is a geninue individual who inheritantly wants to do good. Back in 2014 she created the He For She campaign with the objective to bring men and women closer and to rid the stereotype of “man-hating” etc.
The problem is, over the last few years whenever a man is innocent or in this case Depp is actually the victim a lot of feminists with these platforms whether in Hollywood or journalists, media, etc they are remaining either quiet or the use their plaftorms to spin the narrative to fit the agenda they want in that men simply cannot be victims.
Granted, there are feminists without these big platforms speaking out (maybe such as yourself) and there have been a slew of female domestic abuse survivors who have spoken up on behalf of Depp. But, then the feminists in the mainstream are calling these same women liars and only bowing down to the patriarchy.
So on one had feminists say that all women should have a voice but then when women give their voices and it doesnt jive with their views then all of a sudden these women are liars whether they are self proclaimed feminists or not. Im not sure exactly where Jessa falls on this topic as her article is kind of all over the place but right now the general public seems pretty angry that there are feminists on large platforms still proclaiming Amber’s innocence when in fact the evidence proved otherwise.
I suppose when feminist on these large platforms start to accept that men can be victims than the rest of us will be a little more forgiving. As much as i like Watson her being silent on something like this speaks more volumn than anything she has said in the last decade regarding equality.
Dermot O'Sullivan
1 year ago
Are you trying to promote a ‘cancel’ culture in Unherd?
Certainly not. I was making the point that the writer implies that Depp lost work because of the allegations amplified by social media alone, whereas I believe the position is that he lost work after those allegations had been considered and found to be correct in a Court, which is a rather more defensible position for filmmakers to take.
James C.
1 year ago
Portions of the mainstream media dont believe she is guilty which is sad to see. I can understand if journalist write an article from a broader view to try and dissect this case but much of what is out there is moving their goal posts and spinning new reasons why Amber is the victim.
First its “believe all women”, then its “She is an imperfect victim”, the excuses never stop even when the evidence presented doesnt support her argument. In fact, you could easily use the “imperfect victim” for Depp who clearly has his own issues with drug and alcohol.
But even with those issues Amber’s council was unable to provide evidence that he ever abused her let alone instigated anything. In fact it was quite to the contrary that he was caught on audio trying to escape those situations while she belittled and mocked him. But the mainstream media simply doesnt want to face those facts.
I hear so much about the tik tok and twitter trollverse and although that can be unfortunate for people like Amber its not how this case was decided. Especially for anyone who actually watched and paid attention to the trial itself. But one thing i keep telling people in my own circles is this trial wasnt about other victims, couples, etc. It was about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard and not all cases of domestic abuse are the same.
But yes, men can be victims so if there are people doing a jig about the verdict its because they are tired of being told by extreme feminist that men cant be victims. Even the MeToo founder Burke has stated that men can also be victims of domestic violence but apparently even that falls on deaf ears.
Samuel Ross
1 year ago
Well, you’re not wrong.
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
As the old saying goes..*They should both get an award for letting two other people have the chance of a happy life.*
Last edited 1 year ago by Ted Ditchburn
ARNAUD ALMARIC
1 year ago
Didn’t Confucius* say that “there was no such thing as rape”?
(*551-479 BC.)
Jonathan Andrews
1 year ago
I’m very surprised this has received a negative response, they appear both to be unpleasant people.
It’s like car crashes, it’s very tempting to look out of the window and be grateful that it’s not me in that mess.
0 0
1 year ago
Johny Depp started out as a child Nark on 21 Jump Street & has been trying to recover from that with a bad boy image.
Amber Heard should have played Elizabeth Holmes.
F Jones
1 year ago
I’m confused. I’ve listened to the trial from the beginning and I can’t see how anyone can possibly be supporting Johnny Depp on this. Someone above commented ‘I don’t know anyone who doesn’t think Amber Heard isn’t guilty’.. guilty of what? Not defamation that’s for sure. She didn’t mention his name in the article which was about her, not him. The internalised misogyny of the female commentators is mind blowing. When Christine Blasey Ford gave evidence on an attempted sexual assault 30 years ago women all over the world supported her, when this woman gives evidence on a series of violent assaults all happening within the last decade, she’s vilified. Why? Would it help if Depp was a right wing politician and not everyone’s old teenage crush?
Amber Heard is guilty of physically abusing Depp. It’s on tape. That’s why people don’t condone her. Reverse the situation and think what if it were Depp on tape saying what she said..it would be jail time.
Christine Ford’s testimony was incredible. Many people think Amber Heard’s testimony is incredible also.
Diane McLeod
1 year ago
I believe Amber. I have watched the trial and read the judges ruling in the UK. What I really don’t understand is why more people don’t believe her? You talk of her lies coming out, she was and is the victim of a smear campaign by Depp and his attorney who had to step away from this trial in Virginia. Waldman I believe his name is. He has ties to Putin and the Dark Web and you know what the dark web is full of pedophiles! Please show me 1 lie and I will show you how it has been twisted by Depp and his yes men. Depp is a doped up alcoholic and drug addict by his own admission “happy hour is anytime” um yup. She was tried in public opinion before any of you were even going to listen to her defense. You know what convinced you? Memes and sound bites and recordings with things taken out of context! Tell Johnny I will treat him right! Get real ladies. He doesn’t want you, he wanted her but he could not control her or blackmail her into keeping quiet like he has done to so many other his girlfriends. Just watch that “mega pint” video and ask yourself this, Is this man afraid of this woman? Is this how an abused man behaves? But the bottom line is you just “don’t like her” and I have to ask myself why is that. She is beautiful. These men will never have her and these women will never look like her or get Johnny Depp to give him the time of day! I never realized so many women want to have a liquor bottles shoved up their vaginas! But who am I to judge. The abuse would be equal if he had a liquor bottle shoved up his ass. She wrote an op-ed at the request of the ACLU! She paid a very smart lawyer to make sure she wasn’t defaming anyone and she is being sued for it! It’s outrageous that she has to go through this to defend her 1st amendment right to free speech. She is beautiful and she is kind. She speaks up for other victims of domestic violence and gay youths at risk of suicide. Thank you Amber! And btw I do consider myself to be a feminist, just as Tommy Pistol considers himself one.
This article is a testament to the degree to which identity politics has won.
50 years ago this story would’ve been about the bizarre behaviour of celebrities. The “otherness” would’ve been the celebrity lifestyle.
Now it is framed as a men versus women issue. The entire thrust of this article could be summarised as “in this particular instance our girl doesn’t look too good, so abandon her before the rest of the team gets tainted.”
This framing of everything into a “pick your side” binary is often a problem, particularly for men, in these comments.
How does one deplore everything about intersectional fourth wave feminism, while being entirely supportive of the objectives of what was once the women’s liberation movement, and acknowledging that the human race is flawed, women no less than men?
I’m not sure the author is ADVOCATING that it is all about men versus women. Traditional feminism did not naïvely suggest that all women are perfect, but was concerned with removing the very real legal and structural barriers against women, those created by the abuse of men’s greater physical power, and abortion ‘rights’.
I don’t know anyone who thinks that Amber Heard isn’t guilty. A quick tour around many sites on social media will tell the author that this isn’t just being touted by men’s rights activists and the support for Heard is thin on the ground.
In fact she is seen as an abuser, a user (in many senses), a liar, a dangerous manipulator – we are indeed witnessing what she described herself as (though she was trying to make a joke) : trailer park. As for the leavings in the bed…… her jokes aren’t funny.
I think the problem Heard has is that the only actual evidence she can provide for Depp’s abuse is alcohol and drugs. He abused them a lot. No actual evidence he abused her. Him on the other hand….
Clearly they were a toxic couple and not role models for a healthy relationship.
This is on point, anything that Heard’s council brought to trial was either hearsay, speculation, or her witnesses were debunked. Even now Heard is trying to say that letters she wrote years earlier are proof of abuse even though its still classified as hearsay in a court of law. This isnt surprising though from a woman who does not understand the difference between “pledge” and “donated”.
Yes, it is mainly women online who are the most vitriolic of Heard. Some are fans of Depp but not all. Only the diehard feminists remain in her corner.
I’m no diehard feminista but I have little doubt he abused her. He comes across as an entitled a-hole.
Why would him being an entitled ahole mean he abused her? Should be about evidence.
Am no Depp fan and think he is a pretentious a-hole. Believe the abuse was mutual.
The feminist lobby who consistently shout, “believe [ALL] women [ALL OF THE TIME]!” want to bypass legal process and have accusation alone be proof of guilt.
Intriguingly, many in this group now appear to be calling for Amber Heard’s blood in a far more vocal way than most men are.
It’s a reminder that many in this lobby are quite mad – they want a world where punishment is meted out according to their personal whims, and by no other means. In one moment they want their chosen people to be listened to without requirement for evidence, and in other cases they want punishment (for Amber Heard) before the trial has been completed.
It’s also a reminder that the biggest risk women face is not usually aggression from men, but aggression from other women. Men are more prone to expressing aggression with violence, but women are more prone to expressing aggression through destroying your reputation, or maneuvering society against you.
Actually there is very good reason why this lobby are vociferous. They are concerned that Heard is damaging the case for the huge group of women who are genuinely abused.
Or that they are concerned that most of the accusers are not that different form Heard.
What rubbish. Anyway you got 5 likes from some of your ilk.
I wonder why you say most? How the hell can you know?
All these domestic tragedies happen behind closed doors, it’s largely “he said she said”.
When women like Julie Bindel talk about “male violence “, I get very upset, I didn’t do. Let’s not do the same thing, some women behave in a cruel, manipulative way. Not many I expect, like relatively few men are violent thugs. Most people like a quiet life and to get on with those around them.
I suddenly came across this. You are almost incoherent at the beginning of your post, so sorry that I cannot follow….
Your responses show an unwillingness to back up your claim that there is a “huge group of women who are genuinely abused” so you go after the commenters who challenge you.
After working many years in ER Departments as a physician I have seen abused women, abused men and unfortunately a fair number of women with behaviour similar to Amber Heard.
Venomous anti-male rhetoric has mushroomed in recent years. I remember walking through a university premises several years ago and being horrified at the plethora of notices advertising lectures, seminars, workshops and sessions, on the subject of ‘toxic masculinity’. Not only this, but the students’ work incorporated the ‘toxic masculinity’ angle and other woke propaganda they’d been fed by predominantly female teaching staff.
The normalisation of such virulent ideas and hateful philosophies is reflected in every facet of our divisive woke world, such as black lives matter, trans perspectives, the accepted racism of white supremacism, etc. We are in the midst of a horrifying disintegration into an era of darkness that may be unparalleled in human history.
Amber Herd is a perfect example of toxic femininity — playing the victim, lying, crying to manipulate, abuser.
Women made everything they don’t like a men versus women issue. They created the hash tags (BelieveAllWomen) and wrote books (I Hate Men, The End of Men, etc). Now men are starting to take notice. Be careful when you create a weapon. It can be used against you.
Oh I’m sorry. What did the Me Too movement expect when they chose to become a hack political movement with slack standards over a serious social movement against serial sexual predators? Bonus points for “feminists” calling everyone who warned you where this would lead a sexist rape apologist (even if they were not a man).
It’s the pitiful victim culture we are in. Everyone is at it.
“In response to what some men saw as preferential treatment of women in family court cases, especially where custody arrangements, alimony, and divorce settlements were concerned.”
This statement sets the tone for the article. No one can seriously suggest that this is not objectively true
Most of the online hatred I’ve seen directed at Amber Heard is from women. The fact that women can be involved in fairly vicious rivalrous social relationships with one another is not really covered by the current fashionable identinarian prog feminist idea that women are all ‘sisters’ (comrades) in some imaginary harmonious political collective
Because it’s women like Heard who give the rest of us a bad name?!? Especially when she is being held up as representative of my gender! Not sure if Hollywood has anybody I’d pick for that role!
Should we be criticising women for wanting more evidence provided than simply “I’m a woman therefore I should be believed”. What’s the point of a trial if a person’s word carries more weight than evidence? And how blind is justice if the contents of your pants is considered relevant to your ability to tell the truth.
That is untrue. Women are not all sisters and most women are capable of some discernment.
Not when it comes to men
Your comments are so ludicrous and careless that you must be baiting.
not all
This article needs a decent editor. I couldn’t decide what the author was actually trying to say. Each time she seemed to make a point she countered it in the next paragraph. She also seemed to caricature various positions rather than give any nuanced understanding.
Please decide your position and attempt to support it.
A small point, I dont think Amber Heard is ‘sobbing on the witness stand’. She is pulling faces, employing tonal changes and appearing distraught. None of this involves the tear ducts. Ive never seen a victim of DV (female or male) act like this.
It’s ‘toxic feminism’ not ‘toxic femininity’.
What a different world it would be if we followed the simple requirement of the law of Moses that any accusation must be backed up by witnesses to be admissible, and that it is guilt, not innocence, that must be proven.
Clearly an outlet called “UnHerd” is biased in this dispute. I wonder what “UnDepp” has to say?
There are a few news articles that headline “why we must believe Amber” and “we shouldn’t use mental health in a abuse cases” and I’m not convinced by any of them. It’s time we start accepting that there are women who abuse and lie about it, just as there are men. Many of them probably have mental health problems and need help, not an excuse. I seem to recall people excusing Caroline Flacks abuse because “mental health problems” and now just avoid the subject altogether to focus on her being a “victim of suicide”, yet both the abuse she inflicted and her death were her choice.
Erin Prizzy has always stated that violence isn’t gendered, its simply violence and in her experience of running refuges, much abuse in DV cases is mutual.
I don’t know where the truth lies in this, but my rule of thumb is that there are fewer male victims than the mens’ activists would assert, but also fewer female victims than the feminists would assert. Plus a whole lot of people in the middle who share their victimhood in complex ways.
I watched a bit of the trial on Youtube the other day. Amber Heard is a pathalogical liar and something of a sociopath. It is both absolutely hilarious and worrying at the same time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY1WbMSXdtA
Does anyone in their right mind give a tinker’s cuss about this cretin?
Who – Depp or Heard?
Now that you mention it, both.
We are observing the presumption of innocence being protected. Nothing else. Don’t over think it. It was the only defence Depp had, all the analysis is irrelevant. He can do it, because he is a celebrity, and thank god he is.
Depp sued The Sun. This case is different in that he is suing her. He must feel he has everything to gain and nothing more to lose and I think he is entitled to do what he wants to do. He has never had accusations of violence against women before in his long life, yet Heard has in her short life.
Of course he is entitled to do whatever he wants, but the cases are very similar: the fact that the English case involved the publisher rather than Heard herself is a distinction without a difference.
Actually legally there is a difference.
The author seems to be saying this case is about men vs women (as opposed to two Hollywood narcissists airing their – literally – dirty laundry). But if one accepts that dubious premiss, why does she refer to ‘victims of interpersonal violence of any gender‘?
The multi-million Duluth industry around the globe is in danger! All this profitable venture, employing hundreds of feminists hinges on presupposition that female is
1) always a victim
2) never lies
3) the perpetrator is a patriarchal man trying to keep its outdated power over women using violence
It is not beyond understanding that historically men have had great physical advantage over women and on occasion have used it. No surprise that women developed a more passive form of defence that could equally be used as a form of attack. Both sexes’ powers can be used as abuse, we all know that. So what is there to (long-windedly) write about?
Well balanced and illuminating article. Let’s hope the case marks a turning point in bringing people back to their senses.
Why is it that demi ism has to take the hit when individual women turn out to be “at it”? Feminism has done so much good for both men and women and continues to do so. Maybe it is time to stop this culture of blame. To think about what can be changed and why it must change. Look at who survives abuse and how it is talked about. We know women abuse men and other women. It might be a small percentage – about 10% of all reported abuse, including sexual and paedophilia, is caused by wonen, but it needs to be called out for what it is, in the same way men’s abuse is..
But it is not the fault of feminists any more than it is the fault of men’s rights activists that talking about abuse has become so toxic. It is the fault of people not actually thinking about what they are saying, but simply reacting. Let’s all think more and react less.
What good has feminism done for men? It is a chauvinistic movement aimed at correcting past wrongs and like all such movements it overshoots once those aims have been achieved.
Consider the lack of attention given to the underperformance of men in higher education or boys at school, to name a couple of issues of concern to me. If it truly was a men’s movement as well, it would have pivoted strategies when these trends became apparent years ago.
Or, even more worrying, the high suicide rates in young men.
So Edwin, do you think a woman should have a vote and a career and independent finances? I know plenty of men who celebrate that their women bring more to relationships and businesses than was the case through the ages.
I guess you missed the “correcting past wrongs” part.
so working moms are bad?
Any change in society which results in women becoming more engaged with that society as a whole, and greater agency to act independently within it, can only be a positive for men. Only men who’re frightened of women would think otherwise; exhibit no.1 – the Taliban.
Why a positive for men? Because the deployment of the talents of half its citizens for the greater good results in economic and social advancements, thus benefiting all – including children, who see successful female role models.
As a commentator has pointed out, it is difficult to discern exactly the author’s position. In any event I dont see the Depp v Heard civil trial as a binary gender issue, despite the exciting temptation to shoehorn it into one of the modern world’s running sores. The trial and the broadcasting of it, is a fascinating post modern event for many complex reasons – form, content, context and, not least the vast question of wether litigation of any shape should ever risk being entertainment. My approach is to weigh the evidence, the sole issue being wether the allegation in Amber Heard’s op ed was true, it is accepted by both sides it was about Johnny Depp. That both parties lead a drink and drugs, jet setting, ‘celebrity’ (whatever that means) lifestyle is incidental prurience. There is one very simple issue at stake here.
The problem in my opinion is the silence by feminists with large platforms. For instance, i like Emma Watson the person. I think she is a geninue individual who inheritantly wants to do good. Back in 2014 she created the He For She campaign with the objective to bring men and women closer and to rid the stereotype of “man-hating” etc.
The problem is, over the last few years whenever a man is innocent or in this case Depp is actually the victim a lot of feminists with these platforms whether in Hollywood or journalists, media, etc they are remaining either quiet or the use their plaftorms to spin the narrative to fit the agenda they want in that men simply cannot be victims.
Granted, there are feminists without these big platforms speaking out (maybe such as yourself) and there have been a slew of female domestic abuse survivors who have spoken up on behalf of Depp. But, then the feminists in the mainstream are calling these same women liars and only bowing down to the patriarchy.
So on one had feminists say that all women should have a voice but then when women give their voices and it doesnt jive with their views then all of a sudden these women are liars whether they are self proclaimed feminists or not. Im not sure exactly where Jessa falls on this topic as her article is kind of all over the place but right now the general public seems pretty angry that there are feminists on large platforms still proclaiming Amber’s innocence when in fact the evidence proved otherwise.
I suppose when feminist on these large platforms start to accept that men can be victims than the rest of us will be a little more forgiving. As much as i like Watson her being silent on something like this speaks more volumn than anything she has said in the last decade regarding equality.
Are you trying to promote a ‘cancel’ culture in Unherd?
Certainly not. I was making the point that the writer implies that Depp lost work because of the allegations amplified by social media alone, whereas I believe the position is that he lost work after those allegations had been considered and found to be correct in a Court, which is a rather more defensible position for filmmakers to take.
Portions of the mainstream media dont believe she is guilty which is sad to see. I can understand if journalist write an article from a broader view to try and dissect this case but much of what is out there is moving their goal posts and spinning new reasons why Amber is the victim.
First its “believe all women”, then its “She is an imperfect victim”, the excuses never stop even when the evidence presented doesnt support her argument. In fact, you could easily use the “imperfect victim” for Depp who clearly has his own issues with drug and alcohol.
But even with those issues Amber’s council was unable to provide evidence that he ever abused her let alone instigated anything. In fact it was quite to the contrary that he was caught on audio trying to escape those situations while she belittled and mocked him. But the mainstream media simply doesnt want to face those facts.
I hear so much about the tik tok and twitter trollverse and although that can be unfortunate for people like Amber its not how this case was decided. Especially for anyone who actually watched and paid attention to the trial itself. But one thing i keep telling people in my own circles is this trial wasnt about other victims, couples, etc. It was about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard and not all cases of domestic abuse are the same.
But yes, men can be victims so if there are people doing a jig about the verdict its because they are tired of being told by extreme feminist that men cant be victims. Even the MeToo founder Burke has stated that men can also be victims of domestic violence but apparently even that falls on deaf ears.
Well, you’re not wrong.
As the old saying goes..*They should both get an award for letting two other people have the chance of a happy life.*
Didn’t Confucius* say that “there was no such thing as rape”?
(*551-479 BC.)
I’m very surprised this has received a negative response, they appear both to be unpleasant people.
It’s like car crashes, it’s very tempting to look out of the window and be grateful that it’s not me in that mess.
Johny Depp started out as a child Nark on 21 Jump Street & has been trying to recover from that with a bad boy image.
Amber Heard should have played Elizabeth Holmes.
I’m confused. I’ve listened to the trial from the beginning and I can’t see how anyone can possibly be supporting Johnny Depp on this. Someone above commented ‘I don’t know anyone who doesn’t think Amber Heard isn’t guilty’.. guilty of what? Not defamation that’s for sure. She didn’t mention his name in the article which was about her, not him. The internalised misogyny of the female commentators is mind blowing. When Christine Blasey Ford gave evidence on an attempted sexual assault 30 years ago women all over the world supported her, when this woman gives evidence on a series of violent assaults all happening within the last decade, she’s vilified. Why? Would it help if Depp was a right wing politician and not everyone’s old teenage crush?
Amber Heard is guilty of physically abusing Depp. It’s on tape. That’s why people don’t condone her. Reverse the situation and think what if it were Depp on tape saying what she said..it would be jail time.
Christine Ford’s testimony was incredible. Many people think Amber Heard’s testimony is incredible also.
I believe Amber. I have watched the trial and read the judges ruling in the UK. What I really don’t understand is why more people don’t believe her? You talk of her lies coming out, she was and is the victim of a smear campaign by Depp and his attorney who had to step away from this trial in Virginia. Waldman I believe his name is. He has ties to Putin and the Dark Web and you know what the dark web is full of pedophiles! Please show me 1 lie and I will show you how it has been twisted by Depp and his yes men. Depp is a doped up alcoholic and drug addict by his own admission “happy hour is anytime” um yup. She was tried in public opinion before any of you were even going to listen to her defense. You know what convinced you? Memes and sound bites and recordings with things taken out of context! Tell Johnny I will treat him right! Get real ladies. He doesn’t want you, he wanted her but he could not control her or blackmail her into keeping quiet like he has done to so many other his girlfriends. Just watch that “mega pint” video and ask yourself this, Is this man afraid of this woman? Is this how an abused man behaves? But the bottom line is you just “don’t like her” and I have to ask myself why is that. She is beautiful. These men will never have her and these women will never look like her or get Johnny Depp to give him the time of day! I never realized so many women want to have a liquor bottles shoved up their vaginas! But who am I to judge. The abuse would be equal if he had a liquor bottle shoved up his ass. She wrote an op-ed at the request of the ACLU! She paid a very smart lawyer to make sure she wasn’t defaming anyone and she is being sued for it! It’s outrageous that she has to go through this to defend her 1st amendment right to free speech. She is beautiful and she is kind. She speaks up for other victims of domestic violence and gay youths at risk of suicide. Thank you Amber! And btw I do consider myself to be a feminist, just as Tommy Pistol considers himself one.