Apologies for bringing up the loo for the second time regarding Desmond Tutu but my one and only interaction with the great gentleman was when he held the lavatory door open for me in British Airways first class cabin on a flight from Capetown to London. Never has a loo door been attended by someone with a larger smile.
Simon Diggins
2 years ago
Giles,
Thank you. As for future bishops who see the Imago Dei in all of us and want to bring it out, that’s you, Old Chap; don’t turn it down when the ‘dear old C of E’ finally comes to their senses!
Happy Christmas and Best Wishes and God’s Blessing for the New Year
Simon
Francis MacGabhann
2 years ago
Fair warning, Giles. I fully intend to steal that bit about the priest getting out of the way at the consecration and use it to remind Catholic priests what they SHOULD be doing.
Performers, yes, I’ve always thought — why else dress up so outrageously, prance up and down aisles to envelope us with noxious fumes whilst reciting their scripts? Facilitators no – the Bible says no-one necessary between God and man, except the Man, Jesus Christ (2Cor 5:18 – 21; 1Tim 2:5-10; etc etc etc).
Catholic doctrine says that there is indeed only one priest, Jesus Christ.
And that all Catholic priests are meant to be mere facsimiles of Him.
But they are necessary – for no one else can play the role of Jesus at the Last Supper, of which every Mass (and every Protestant Communion Service) are re-enactments.
Priestly robes (Roman togas & tunics) only outrage those determined to be outraged.
As for the smell of incense (sadly rare at Masses nowadays) – it is the most beautiful and mind-transporting smell in the world !
Whereas referring to an ancient liturgy as a “script” is part of the bigoted, anti-Catholic vulgarity of which your post stinks.
A very obvious piece of truth -esp given that the ‘peter- Rock- church thing was obviously a piece of second/third century spin – and yes there is much spin in the good ? book. One would have to be a bit thick to read it and conclude that it was the unadulterated ‘word of God”.
I worked, decades ago, at a unitarian school for girls in North London. The teacher of Religion, Keith, was the spitting image of God, long white hair and beard. Great bloke.
Anyway, he said something I thought, and still consider, profound. The Bible, whether you believe it’s the word of God or not is a wonderful poem.
Priests who understand the sensuality and musicality of many of the passages add something positive to the world.
David Nebeský
2 years ago
“And it was because he was a priest that the apartheid regime never dared to touch him.”
Opposing the apartheid regime was easy. If Tutu had lived in a communist country, he would have ended up in a prison or gulag precisely because he was a priest.
As an example of his commitment to telling it as he saw it I offer his comment on ANC corruption that, “The ANC stopped the gravy train long enough to get on board it.”
Lesley van Reenen
2 years ago
Tutu was black African, not ‘Cape Coloured’. The things one reads.
Just what color IS a cape? Dracula is often depicted with a red or black one, but his counterpart on Sesame Street has a green one. Do they correspond to political affiliation?
Perhaps it’s just me, but I sense a distinct ambivalence here, in the relationship between the author’s true feelings, and what, out of courtesy I guess, he is writing about the deceased. Am I wrong? I suppose there is no way of telling, unless can we have a time machine, and can go back to examine the state of the deceaseds’ old loo, where the author had such a memorable pee.
I am, btw, also a big fan of Ubuntu (though I will make do with Debian at a pinch) although the deceaseds’ version of Ubuntu sounds like a philosophy that would allow someone to become a religious leader, without needing to bother with the actual messy business of religion, so I’m guessing he would have fitted right in in the C-of-E.
Good insight Chris! I often feel like this first thing in the morning …
Martin Bollis
2 years ago
“Cape coloureds were stereotyped as a bit daffy and cheerful – like Scousers. Exactly Tutu’s demanour and his strength.”
Two marvellous sentences.
Lesley van Reenen
2 years ago
“I once had a pee in Desmond Tutu’s old loo in the Archbishop’s House in Cape Town”. I was a passenger in a car that left the road and rolled several times up the embankment of the Archbishop’s residence in Cape Town late one night. I heard a voice call from the house…. ‘Are you OK?’ And upside down, feeling embarrassed, I called ‘Yes fine’. We were made of tough stuff.
Iris C
2 years ago
I am sure Desmond Tutu was everything that you have written about him but I cannot forget that he agreed with lit tyres being put round the necks of those who had different views to him.
Tutu was noble and honourable his entire life. In 1985, when a woman was burnt to death with a tyre around her neck – a practise known then as necklacing – after being accused of being an “impimpi” (informer), he threatened to leave the country.
“If you do this kind of thing, I will find it difficult to speak for the cause of liberation. If the violence continues, I will pack my bags, collect my family and leave this beautiful country that I love so passionately and so deeply. I say to you that I condemn in the strongest possible terms what happened in Duduza.”
I think you need to either provide some evidence for what on the face of it appears to be an appalling posthumous libel, or delete it.
hayden eastwood
2 years ago
Tutu is not a cape Malay name to my knowledge
Caroline Martin
2 years ago
God in every one. Also in every animal. In every thing
Matthew Robinson
2 years ago
I thank god every day that I am an atheist and thus can be vaguely amused at phrases like “the glory of God is a human being fully alive” & “in order to be what God fully intended’ & “the imprint of God in all of us”. Honestly! What twaddle.
Alice Bondi
2 years ago
Not all Jews objected to Tutu’s characterisation of Israel as an apartheid state, especially after the passing of the Nation-State Act. On the contrary, many of us felt vindicated in our discomfort and criticism of the country we’re meant (according to the Israeli government) to have some connection with. I don’t think it was a mistake for him to call it as he saw it – I think it was hugely important, and we might have hoped that it would have enabled some of those holding ‘Israel is always right’ attitudes to sit up and get real about what is going on in that state.
Lilke the fact that it is a tiny democracy surrounded by millions of fanatics who want to kill them all ?
Or maybe that many Israelis are voting Arabs ?
I’m struggling to understand your ‘reality’ Alice – please help me
Most of the Jews who did not object to Turu’s characterisation of Israel as an apartheid state after the Nation-State law was passed in 2018 likely did not object when he used it before 2018; for example when he called for a global boycott of Israel in 2014 (which he presumably violated by having it published in an Israeli paper).
James Joyce
2 years ago
If you believe, as I do, that organized religion is little more than primitive superstition and often evil–think the Catholic Church and their rejection of birth control, abuse of children, etc., then there is no need to celebrate the “Arch,” as he is a charlatan in this false hope. His chairmanship of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission–essentially celebrating the sacrament of confession in the public arena–achieved nothing. Israel an apartheid state–come on, mate!
But the Arch does provide something useful: a black man for white people to worship, to show how not racist they are. And the Arch is in good company: Nelson Mandela (failed leader), Colin Powell (war criminal, coward, failed leader), Barrack Hussein Obama (utter fraud, failed leader). It sickens me that there will be a week of this utter veneration, where people bow down before the Arch to show how much they loved him–a sickening ritual.
Like it or not, the Arch and Nelson Mandela are partly responsible for today’s South Africa, which by any measure is an extremely anti-white, failed state. The Arch achieved nothing of substance, but had a good run selling his snake oil to very willing buyers, so eager to bow down before a black man.
I quite agree–the world is an awfully bleak place and getting worse. I think there is a typo–a bit of ambiguity, though–where you likely mean “good” deeds not “god” deeds. No worries. God does not exist, and the religious “good deeds” usually make matters worse–i.e. missionaries in Haiti. They (the missionaries) may feel good, but Haiti continues its inexorable decline.
Believe whatever you want in private–none of my business–just keep it out of public life!
I was once comfortable with the idea that ‘all religion is toxic’. I’ve come around to the idea that ‘some religion is toxic, some is restorative’. Same with politics, same with ‘the State’, and so on.
Now the proportions may vary from time to time and I suspect they are driven by the ratio of toxic/restorative people within them. Organisations can go toxic and attract toxic people easily, going restorative is harder.
Word to the wise, Jimmy. The Catholic Church — despite the apostasy of it current bishops on the matter — called it when they stood against contraception. One way or the other, directly or indirectly, the civilizational collapse of the west can be traced back to the separation of sex and childbirth.
Perhaps Francis you can explain Nigeria. A country the size of texas with 200 million people in it, destined to become 700 million before 2100. How is feeding 700 million people not a problem?
Gosh that would be a hard statement to sensibly back up surely ?? Tis a well known fact that some human groups will breed to the point of starvation – as do some animals – and I for one dont want to see lots of those pictures on TV if you dont mind – or do you have some more knowledge about better possible outcomes for the scarce food and water scenarios ?? Maybe the Catholic church can fund enormous infrastructures in these countries – Africa would be a good start – I think 100 trillion dollars might make an improvement in African quality of life – but then they would have to keep funding that forever as the population grows exponentially – what a happy planet you live on – I wish I could go there (seriously).
One has to avoid having an evil eye because others are good.
However, while anyone is free to make of what they will of Christian theology, not everything in the gospels would exactly support the late Archbishop’s view of humanity, as generous as it was.
When Jesus meets the Canaanite woman who petitioned Him about her sick daughter she takes an inferior position, one entirely separate and distinct, in order to receive that help.
Jesus takes an example from everyday life, as He does in His parables, as His guide. This is from dinner table etiquette. The bread is specifically the ends of the loaf. The diners use the better part of the loaf, as referenced in the Last Supper. The ‘ends’ are used to clean the hands and are given to the household dogs to finish.
There is a connection between dog and diner. There is indeed one bread. It is broken for all. But it is not equal in quality, and neither are the recipients. When this meeting takes place the testator has not yet died, as Hebrews puts it. Thus the meeting takes place under the terms of the Old Covenant.
Young South Africans will tell you about the discrimination that faces white South Africans in the job market. It seems that those who praise the Archbishop for his undoubted qualities as a man and a Christian but at the same time practice this discrimination are much more like the Pharisees that Jesus condemned before meeting the Canaanite mother.
And on both a political and a religious point, one could reflect on how a rainbow is created and what colour of light isn’t present in it.
Fair comment I think – easier to play a spiritual type role but how hard did he really work to stop the clear downhill slide into a failed state?? I would really like to know because I am naturally very suspicious of those folk with big egoes – ALL their efforts seem to be tainted by self promotion which inevitably leads to less effective outcomes ???????
As a Zimbabwean I am grateful to Tutu for being one of the few African men of status to condemn the atrocities in Zimbabwe. By doing that he showed his principals in my view. The ANC turned a blind eye because they couldn’t be seen to condemn an anti-white movement. Tutu did so despite the fact that it isolated him.
Absolutely Hayden. And Mandela never criticised Mugabe in public. His intervention would have made a difference. Tutu deserves praise for his moral courage in this connection, whereas Mandela kept his head below the liberation heros’ parapet.
Well written and very insightful.
Apologies for bringing up the loo for the second time regarding Desmond Tutu but my one and only interaction with the great gentleman was when he held the lavatory door open for me in British Airways first class cabin on a flight from Capetown to London. Never has a loo door been attended by someone with a larger smile.
Giles,
Thank you. As for future bishops who see the Imago Dei in all of us and want to bring it out, that’s you, Old Chap; don’t turn it down when the ‘dear old C of E’ finally comes to their senses!
Happy Christmas and Best Wishes and God’s Blessing for the New Year
Simon
Fair warning, Giles. I fully intend to steal that bit about the priest getting out of the way at the consecration and use it to remind Catholic priests what they SHOULD be doing.
Saying it all in mumbled latin with their back to the congregation?
Frankly, yes. They’re facilitators, not performers.
Performers, yes, I’ve always thought — why else dress up so outrageously, prance up and down aisles to envelope us with noxious fumes whilst reciting their scripts? Facilitators no – the Bible says no-one necessary between God and man, except the Man, Jesus Christ (2Cor 5:18 – 21; 1Tim 2:5-10; etc etc etc).
Catholic doctrine says that there is indeed only one priest, Jesus Christ.
And that all Catholic priests are meant to be mere facsimiles of Him.
But they are necessary – for no one else can play the role of Jesus at the Last Supper, of which every Mass (and every Protestant Communion Service) are re-enactments.
Priestly robes (Roman togas & tunics) only outrage those determined to be outraged.
As for the smell of incense (sadly rare at Masses nowadays) – it is the most beautiful and mind-transporting smell in the world !
Whereas referring to an ancient liturgy as a “script” is part of the bigoted, anti-Catholic vulgarity of which your post stinks.
A very obvious piece of truth -esp given that the ‘peter- Rock- church thing was obviously a piece of second/third century spin – and yes there is much spin in the good ? book. One would have to be a bit thick to read it and conclude that it was the unadulterated ‘word of God”.
No, joining the congregation in facing God
Yes!!!
Yes, absolutely!
Have you a photo of Tutu with his back to the congregation? This is a man who launched himself into a mob to stop a lynching.
I worked, decades ago, at a unitarian school for girls in North London. The teacher of Religion, Keith, was the spitting image of God, long white hair and beard. Great bloke.
Anyway, he said something I thought, and still consider, profound. The Bible, whether you believe it’s the word of God or not is a wonderful poem.
Priests who understand the sensuality and musicality of many of the passages add something positive to the world.
“And it was because he was a priest that the apartheid regime never dared to touch him.”
Opposing the apartheid regime was easy. If Tutu had lived in a communist country, he would have ended up in a prison or gulag precisely because he was a priest.
Not if you were an ordinary African, whom the world did not recognise.
The same was true for communist countries – except that ordinary people from communist country were not able to leave.
You mean like Mandela?
As an example of his commitment to telling it as he saw it I offer his comment on ANC corruption that, “The ANC stopped the gravy train long enough to get on board it.”
Tutu was black African, not ‘Cape Coloured’. The things one reads.
Just what color IS a cape? Dracula is often depicted with a red or black one, but his counterpart on Sesame Street has a green one. Do they correspond to political affiliation?
It’s ‘Cape of Colour’ to you, lad!
Goeie idee
Can you say that in Bislama?
Perhaps it’s just me, but I sense a distinct ambivalence here, in the relationship between the author’s true feelings, and what, out of courtesy I guess, he is writing about the deceased. Am I wrong? I suppose there is no way of telling, unless can we have a time machine, and can go back to examine the state of the deceaseds’ old loo, where the author had such a memorable pee.
I am, btw, also a big fan of Ubuntu (though I will make do with Debian at a pinch) although the deceaseds’ version of Ubuntu sounds like a philosophy that would allow someone to become a religious leader, without needing to bother with the actual messy business of religion, so I’m guessing he would have fitted right in in the C-of-E.
Clever! You sent me looking for Debian as a philosophy.
(:-)
Yet another excellent article from UnHerd’s in-house chaplain
Thank you, Giles. Beautifully written, insightful and ‘captures the essence’.
..
Good insight Chris! I often feel like this first thing in the morning …
“Cape coloureds were stereotyped as a bit daffy and cheerful – like Scousers. Exactly Tutu’s demanour and his strength.”
Two marvellous sentences.
“I once had a pee in Desmond Tutu’s old loo in the Archbishop’s House in Cape Town”.
I was a passenger in a car that left the road and rolled several times up the embankment of the Archbishop’s residence in Cape Town late one night. I heard a voice call from the house…. ‘Are you OK?’ And upside down, feeling embarrassed, I called ‘Yes fine’. We were made of tough stuff.
I am sure Desmond Tutu was everything that you have written about him but I cannot forget that he agreed with lit tyres being put round the necks of those who had different views to him.
Really !! – which would mean that his egoism was way less inclusive and actually seriously flawed…
Really indeed. That’s not what it says here:
I think you need to either provide some evidence for what on the face of it appears to be an appalling posthumous libel, or delete it.
Tutu is not a cape Malay name to my knowledge
God in every one. Also in every animal. In every thing
I thank god every day that I am an atheist and thus can be vaguely amused at phrases like “the glory of God is a human being fully alive” & “in order to be what God fully intended’ & “the imprint of God in all of us”. Honestly! What twaddle.
Not all Jews objected to Tutu’s characterisation of Israel as an apartheid state, especially after the passing of the Nation-State Act. On the contrary, many of us felt vindicated in our discomfort and criticism of the country we’re meant (according to the Israeli government) to have some connection with. I don’t think it was a mistake for him to call it as he saw it – I think it was hugely important, and we might have hoped that it would have enabled some of those holding ‘Israel is always right’ attitudes to sit up and get real about what is going on in that state.
Lilke the fact that it is a tiny democracy surrounded by millions of fanatics who want to kill them all ?
Or maybe that many Israelis are voting Arabs ?
I’m struggling to understand your ‘reality’ Alice – please help me
Most of the Jews who did not object to Turu’s characterisation of Israel as an apartheid state after the Nation-State law was passed in 2018 likely did not object when he used it before 2018; for example when he called for a global boycott of Israel in 2014 (which he presumably violated by having it published in an Israeli paper).
If you believe, as I do, that organized religion is little more than primitive superstition and often evil–think the Catholic Church and their rejection of birth control, abuse of children, etc., then there is no need to celebrate the “Arch,” as he is a charlatan in this false hope. His chairmanship of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission–essentially celebrating the sacrament of confession in the public arena–achieved nothing. Israel an apartheid state–come on, mate!
But the Arch does provide something useful: a black man for white people to worship, to show how not racist they are. And the Arch is in good company: Nelson Mandela (failed leader), Colin Powell (war criminal, coward, failed leader), Barrack Hussein Obama (utter fraud, failed leader). It sickens me that there will be a week of this utter veneration, where people bow down before the Arch to show how much they loved him–a sickening ritual.
Like it or not, the Arch and Nelson Mandela are partly responsible for today’s South Africa, which by any measure is an extremely anti-white, failed state. The Arch achieved nothing of substance, but had a good run selling his snake oil to very willing buyers, so eager to bow down before a black man.
The world must be an awfully bleak place, when you’re so cynical of the gods deeds of others James
Given your legal background and world view, could I suggest a profile name change to something more in keeping
How about Judge Jeffreys?
I quite agree–the world is an awfully bleak place and getting worse. I think there is a typo–a bit of ambiguity, though–where you likely mean “good” deeds not “god” deeds. No worries. God does not exist, and the religious “good deeds” usually make matters worse–i.e. missionaries in Haiti. They (the missionaries) may feel good, but Haiti continues its inexorable decline.
Believe whatever you want in private–none of my business–just keep it out of public life!
Hugh, sorry to push the red pill – but actually for many folk the world IS a pretty bleak place.
I was once comfortable with the idea that ‘all religion is toxic’. I’ve come around to the idea that ‘some religion is toxic, some is restorative’. Same with politics, same with ‘the State’, and so on.
Now the proportions may vary from time to time and I suspect they are driven by the ratio of toxic/restorative people within them. Organisations can go toxic and attract toxic people easily, going restorative is harder.
Word to the wise, Jimmy. The Catholic Church — despite the apostasy of it current bishops on the matter — called it when they stood against contraception. One way or the other, directly or indirectly, the civilizational collapse of the west can be traced back to the separation of sex and childbirth.
Sex and childbirth are inextricably linked in Africa. The result is poverty on a large scale and children dying.
Really? Pill will solve the problems of Africa, will it? Seriously?
Perhaps Francis you can explain Nigeria. A country the size of texas with 200 million people in it, destined to become 700 million before 2100. How is feeding 700 million people not a problem?
Spot on!
Gosh that would be a hard statement to sensibly back up surely ?? Tis a well known fact that some human groups will breed to the point of starvation – as do some animals – and I for one dont want to see lots of those pictures on TV if you dont mind – or do you have some more knowledge about better possible outcomes for the scarce food and water scenarios ?? Maybe the Catholic church can fund enormous infrastructures in these countries – Africa would be a good start – I think 100 trillion dollars might make an improvement in African quality of life – but then they would have to keep funding that forever as the population grows exponentially – what a happy planet you live on – I wish I could go there (seriously).
One has to avoid having an evil eye because others are good.
However, while anyone is free to make of what they will of Christian theology, not everything in the gospels would exactly support the late Archbishop’s view of humanity, as generous as it was.
When Jesus meets the Canaanite woman who petitioned Him about her sick daughter she takes an inferior position, one entirely separate and distinct, in order to receive that help.
Jesus takes an example from everyday life, as He does in His parables, as His guide. This is from dinner table etiquette. The bread is specifically the ends of the loaf. The diners use the better part of the loaf, as referenced in the Last Supper. The ‘ends’ are used to clean the hands and are given to the household dogs to finish.
There is a connection between dog and diner. There is indeed one bread. It is broken for all. But it is not equal in quality, and neither are the recipients. When this meeting takes place the testator has not yet died, as Hebrews puts it. Thus the meeting takes place under the terms of the Old Covenant.
Young South Africans will tell you about the discrimination that faces white South Africans in the job market. It seems that those who praise the Archbishop for his undoubted qualities as a man and a Christian but at the same time practice this discrimination are much more like the Pharisees that Jesus condemned before meeting the Canaanite mother.
And on both a political and a religious point, one could reflect on how a rainbow is created and what colour of light isn’t present in it.
Fair comment I think – easier to play a spiritual type role but how hard did he really work to stop the clear downhill slide into a failed state?? I would really like to know because I am naturally very suspicious of those folk with big egoes – ALL their efforts seem to be tainted by self promotion which inevitably leads to less effective outcomes ???????
As a Zimbabwean I am grateful to Tutu for being one of the few African men of status to condemn the atrocities in Zimbabwe. By doing that he showed his principals in my view. The ANC turned a blind eye because they couldn’t be seen to condemn an anti-white movement. Tutu did so despite the fact that it isolated him.
Absolutely Hayden. And Mandela never criticised Mugabe in public. His intervention would have made a difference. Tutu deserves praise for his moral courage in this connection, whereas Mandela kept his head below the liberation heros’ parapet.